16th August, 1945.
C.M. 23(45).
1.
Man Power.
E.B.
As in my note re 900.000.
Intake – 160.000.
Release of ex-miners – not to be announced because will cause
ramp. Let it average out at 10% quietly. Easy to deal with
miners because of earlier enquiries. Won’t affect B. releases
for bldg. or specialists.
T.W.
Agric. needs man-power. Only getting 50 p. month under Cl. B.,
while call-up from ag. continues. Want early considn of
B. releases for agriculture.
Barnes.
Machinery to get Dpts’ views?
E.B.
Man Power Cttee.
Agriculture. Don’t press for B. releases. Need for special care to
avoid trouble in Forces. But have mentioned need for harvest
labour, with W.O. at M.P. Cttee. They are ready to lend mil.
labour awaitg. demobn: but farmers haven’t applied for it.
If C.O.’s make any diffy W.O. will deal with them. But
farmers wait until they are in a real hole. Catchy season for
weather: must get in all we can. M/Ag. shd. meet Farmers
Union.
T.W.
Any complaints of farmers’ refusing labour shd. be sent to me.
E.B.
Farmers shd. take the initiative.
P.M.
Old diffy – farmers not applying in good time. M/Ag. shd. get on
to the farmers.
H.D.
Stressed importce of gettg. in harvest because of foreign exchange.
P.M.
This rpt. = broad outline. Details for M.P. Cttee.
E.Sh.
Increased release in A is more useful than juggling with B.
Memo. to M.P. Cttee. Priorities: open-cast, skilled men.
maintaining gas supply
Miners: don’t be sure nos. will automat. increase prodn : problem
of absorption at coal-face. Workg. out of release scheme: must
consult with M/L. & Serv. Dpts.
A.B.
Don’t believe this statement will be popular.
Dissatisfn with increased rate of releases.
Dissatisfn with Service use of women.
246
W.O. frustration of Cab. decns. e.g. doctors don’t come out.
can’t get techn. specialists for
housing.
J.J.L.
I will go into these ques. personally if details given to me.
Women doing men’s work – e.g. pay corps etc. Give me evidence
& I will investigate.
E.B.
Let Ministers meet with M/L. & examine the facts.
Take doctors: we were on edge of scandal in Burma because of
shortage of drs.
Housing specialists. Any M/L. must hold a balance. Nearly all
were officers – risk of trouble in Army. Now W.O. will prob.
be able to be more forthcoming. Many will now come out in
CL.A – because Territorials & early groups. Town Clerks posts –
19 and 20 yrs. of age as “experts”.
Monkeying with demob. scheme can get this Govt. into real trouble.
Let M/L. go into these ques. on his Cttee: & if they can’t settle bring
it to M.P. Cttee.
J.J.L.
Let these allegns be handled by M.P. Cttee.
H.M.
a)
b)
Doctors – W.S.C. attack on W.O. New Sys. shd. shake them
up.
Cdn’t review be completed before end/Sept.
R.S.C.
C.O.S. can’t complete before 1/9.
H.M.
c)
P.M.
Serv. Dpts. tied to “establmts”. Ministers must fight Dpts on that.
Pay depends on no. of subordinates. All Ministers must watch this.
E.B.
At D. Cttee suggd Services shd. pool drs. & nurses. Ministers must
consider that too.
On publn. C.F.M. Sept. Don’t want any indicn of weakening our
occupl forces.
After C.F.M. we cd. go ahead.
A.V.A.
We will examine P.M.’s pts. on drs. But we were working to 60%
of establmts. Serv. Dpts. must help Col. services in East – to
prevent disease in areas left by J.
J.W.
Intake. Cdn’t we delay call-up of apprentices?
E.B.
We have agreed that M/L. will revise dirns on deferments.
Barnes.
Re-consider personnel of M.P. Cttee – now we are drawing out.
M/L. think no risk of serious unemplt. Think again? - large
releases fr. munitions.
Shd. any special action be taken re unemplt.
247
P.M.
Cttee. consists of 3 civilian Ministers – balance claims of civil Dpts.
& hear their views.
Barnes.
Round-table talk preferable to individual hearings.
E.B.
Don’t object to one such talk.
A.B.
Statement to-day. Step up rate.
Barnes.
Wd. prefer it reversed. Encouragement first.
E.Sh.
Need for caution. Less said the better. But can’t ignore the facts.
Raise hopes of faster demobn than facts & internatl sitn allow.
E.B.
Supported this. Remember Allies, who rely on our support.
J.J.L.
Don’t ignore the principles of re-allocn . We haven’t discussed them
here.
You don’t know our diffies – e.g. p.o.w. from F/East & organn
needed to handle.
P.M.
Genl. points: a) Allies: occupation duties.
b) Orderly and fair. Maintain principles accepted by
Forces.
c) Need to avoid up-setting Forces or civil popn.
Two amendmts. of statement approved – as in ms
E.B.
Machinery. Offl. Cttee to start with - under N.B. [Agreed.
H.M.
Statement on future of controls?
P.M.
Am saying somethg to-day, in genl. terms. Can be followed up later.
Munitions Industries.
R.S.C.
Most points in this covered in discn.
Notice re contracts has bn. put out.
Unemplt. Because of nos. who will go out of industry, M/L. doesn’t
expect any general unemplt. Where option, steps will be taken to
release where labour can be absorbed.
H.D.
Concerned – esp. on exped. exports.
Storage: no progress under Caretaker Govt. Want to get on now –
Serv. Dpts must co-operate now.
H.M.
Holiday or (E.B.) 3 wks’ notice?
M/L.
Not necessary. Forces releases will have holidays & leaves opp.
to munitions releases.
248
H.M.
Need to avoid claim for genl. increase in unemplt. pay.
E.B.
3 wks’ notice to be arranged by Dpts, not by general order. They
go on paying if M/L. can’t re-absorb, but only if: no general
rule.
2.
Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Bill.
C.E.
Duration: 5 years not 2. L.P. agrees.
My advisers are against extending duration.
My view: in 2 years’ time to have to move aff. Resolution wd. be
v. difficult – might be stopped by H/Lords.
Let’s be hanged as sheep.
A.G.
Trouble anyway: let us have it.
H.M.
Apart from H/L danger: important thing is to establish at once
doctrine tht. the next 5 years of transition is as diff. as was
the war.
E.B.
There is another side to this. The real trouble last time didn’t
begin for 2 years.
If you had had control you wd. have avoided 1921, 1924 & 1926
industrial crises. The argument for this Bill is tht. it provides
powers to prevent this.
H.D.
Finance – favour 5 years. This Bill contains somethg. on fin. controls.
But I want perm. powers over exchange & cap. issues – in
another Bill.
Agreed: 5 years with renewal on affirm. Resoln.
H.M.
Intended to present just before recess. If earlier wd. block discn in
debate on Address.
A.B.
Want early powers – to requisition houses; control bldg. prices.
H.M.
L.O. say you can do what you want at once under E.P.(D.) Acts.
3.
British North Borneo.
G.H.
This is only Charter Co, in B. Empire.
Explained proposal – as in memo.
H.D.
No objn so long as finance is reserved. Not commd to any
expendre.
A.
Agreed.
We told Dom. Govts to treat this as secret. Must tell them
first.
Agreed.
4.
Overseas Financial Prospects.
249
P.M.
Emphasised need for secrecy.
5.
Japan: Representation of Australia at Signing of Surrender Terms.
P.M.
Washington telegram about repn of Aust. at Signing.
Prisec 5627.
A.
Will consider with F.O.
250
20th August, 1945.
C.M. 24(45).
India: Constitutional Problem.
P.L.
a)
men sentenced to death for communal activities –
Respited & commuted.
b) detenus.
c) men engaged in anti. B. activities.
d) Early elections (apart fr. using them as elect. colleges):
save in Punjab, where V. is unwilling to force hand
of P.M.
Main issue – constitutional issue.
Now war is over, this Govt. wd. not wish to do less than Cripps
offer – tho’ not commd to every detail. India Cttee decided
to ask Viceroy to take first step – as in draft statement in
C.P. 121.
Also thght. Viceroy shd. come home to discuss.
W. has sent 2 telegrams in comment. Want to be consulted before we
announce a final decision. Think we must do so. India Cttee
agreed he shd. come before decn put into effect: in view of his
request I think he shd. come before any announcemt. made.
Ind. Cttee thght. announcemt. shd. be made when El. announced.
Now I suggest we shd. state merely tht. W. comg. home for
consultn.
W. wants announce electns to enable prepns to be made. Shd. be
annd in India.
On Indian Franchise Bill & on continn of s.93. we shall have to
say somethg. re electns this winter. If decided by 7 p.m. to-night
W. cd. be authd to make announcemt. wh. wd. get on radio early
Tuesday – if it’s announcemt. he agrees then.
Concln: W. shd. be allowed to come & discuss before we take any
step in this matter.
P.M.
Cttee. never intended draft to be put out now.
We wanted, when statemt. on electns, statemt. on constitl issue.
Wanted a statement on our genl. line of policy.
Doubtful wtr. P.M. Punjab shd. be allowed to prevent electn – Parlt.
lasted 10 yrs.
R.S.C.
Most people in India will put up excuses for delay – can’t listen
to them.
P.L.
All I meant was if we rush W. into makg. v. early statemt. no time to
canvass with P.M. of Punjab.
P.M.
But W. can’t say “everywhere save in Punjab”. You say he wants
early statement.
Statement by Rag. 8. – Hopeless.
[Agreed.
251
We said “as soon as war ended, elections & then constituent
assembly.”
R.S.C.
We said “cessn of hostilities” = even more urgent.
P.M.
Don’t understand argumt. tht. any statemt. will put elections on
communal issue. But they always are. And we shd. then see
where India’s opinion stands.
No good fiddling about with membership of Ex. Council.
Take a line – put it on India – must have electns.
R.S.C.
Go ahead with Electns.
Wd. like to say this: 1st step.
Otherwise – pressure & we shall be yielding to their initiative.
x/ We’ve always said this offer stands: it does stand: 1st step to
elections.
S.
Consultn with W. advisable.
R.S.C.
I accept that – get him back at once.
P.M.
Maybe enough to announce electns & invite W. home. But fear
won’t be suff. obvious on that alone tht. we regard electns as
1st step.
E.W.
If Govt. for once did somethg. before pushed, it wd be gt. advantage.
R.S.C.
Avoid any impn tht. we are thinkg. of somethg. diff. from ’42. Want
announcemt. as at x/.
P.L.
But this is the statement W. doesn’t want us to make w’out discn.
Need for early statemt on electns?
a) W. wants to get on: adminve prepns.
b) I shd. say somethg. on Ind. Franchise Bill.
R.S.C.
They are bound to ask – are these electns the 1st step towds. 1942
offer – at least in H/C.
A.B.
In H/C. – s.93. business – better a narrow statement if you don’t want
to give wide debate.
E.B.
Favour W. saying only “electns will be held” – then come home for
consultn. Preferably round time of C.F.M. Time of change:
impn tht. H.M.G. are putting own house in order at same time
as they order others!
A.B.
Case for putting whole picture at once a) some will co-opte more
in electns if they think they can thus get into elect. college.
b) U.S. opinion. Will strike them as in accord with U.S.
history.
252
Why not tell W. what we intend therefore & if he has strong objn
let him come home.
E.B.
Timing – Electns announced at once: W. sent for: he will take
some time to talk: then announce purpose of Elections about
a week before C.F.M.
P.M.
18211 to W. - what was para. 1?
P.L.
Read it. - - - - - - -
H.M.
Why not - - - - - - One & indeed immediate purpose
then will have to follow consultns re future constitl.
R.S.C.
Either one or other. No compromise.
Content if he comes back at once.
Agreed: as in P.L. proposal (oral)
avoid extended debate.
2.
Supplies & Services (Transitional Powers) Bill.
R.S.C.
Do Cab. realise this will give no power to make new Regs., of any
kind i.e. after Feb. next.
We may want a lot of little powers – e.g. on cotton industry – for
wh. legn wd. be v. heavy measure.
H.M.
Done this way on merits as well as politics (Coalition)
x/ What R.S.C. is suggesting: “powers wh. were adequate for war are
not enough for peace.” Look at R.55: cd. anything be more
severe than that. And the Bill applies it to the new purposes.
Parly tactics: if not necessary to amend it, don’t do it.
A.G.
Was thght shd. be presented this week.
R.S.C.
Tactically better to leave it as it is.
But let us be clear no power to make new Rgs. to deal with new cites.
A.B.
Ministers concerned with housing anxious re control of labour – risk
of diversion to activities, more profitable than housing. Want
power to direct employers as we can’t direct employees. Doubt
if this can be done under the existg. powers.
H.M.
Been examined over months.
R.S.C.
B/T. were satisfied all powers covered under Coaln Govt.: doubtful
wtr. it will be enough for policies of Labour Govt.
E.Sh.
Stressed x/. Shdn’t agree until we know what the powers are.
253
P.M.
Will long title permit us to make any change?
C.E.
If B/T. will send me particulars, I will examine before it comes to
Leg. Cttee.
J.
Let us have concrete examples & we will consider at Legn Cttee
wtr. it can be done under Bill as it stands.
Remitted to Legn Cttee.
254
23rd August, 1945.
C.M. 25(45).
1.
Syria and Lebanon.
E.B.
As in memo. Fr. are apprehensive. Attitude affected by past
activities of Spears.
Police – neutral suggs because anyone else, even U.S., will be
suspect.
Want authy to proceed on these lines.
P.M.
Feeling v. Fr. Be sure what troops they send. Senegalese.
A.V.A.
What procedure after talks? Statemt. tht. if order not kept Fr.
go back?
E.B.
Memo. clear tht. no one goes back unless 3 Powers satisfd
necessary. That = safeguard.
Wait for agreemt. before considg. announcemt.
Don’t want ride roughshod over S. & L.
Discns shd. be v. secret: final settlemt. may not be like this.
T.W.
Wd. U.S. be willing to arbitrate on ques. wtr. Fr. shd. return.
E.B.
Don’t know yet: but want Cab. authy for this approach before
I discuss.
Nothing to work on yet. This = only basis of discn.
A.B.
Why not assocte Russia?
E.B.
R. never bn. in Levant – involves whole M/East.
A.B.
U.S. there only because of F/East war.
E.B.
They have big interests there.
A.B.
Fear another Tangier trouble with R. Avoid path. feeling of isolation
in R.
J.J.L.
S. & L. are far fr. able to give assurce their Police can keep order.
Someone will have to go in if there’s trouble.
Visited there some years ago – thousands of Senegalese, almost war
condns. S & L. were then askg. for mandate treatment as in Pal.
V. serious step until we’re sure S. & L. cd. maintain internal order.
Paget returng. U.K. next week. ? While policy decns v. important,
wait for confce with him on internal order & Police ques.
P.M.
See para. 5. It is agreed they must have force. Presume wdn’t w’draw
B. & Fr. troops until that created.
255
E.B.
Perfid. Albion atmosphere. Vicious circle: we will w’draw with Fr.
when satisf.
Treaty: but they say how can we get Treaty while for. troops in
occupn.
Fear Persia. R. will say on Persia what are you doing in Levant. We
went into both for war reasons. Want therefore to start these
talks before C.F.M.
H.D.
Let E.B. start. He can see Paget later.
E.B.
Agreed to see Paget.
A.V.A.
Agree with E.B.’s objectives. All I want is to be sure no announcemt.
made wh. implies Fr. first in, if disorder. Will upset S. & L.
E.B.
No ques. of announcemt. yet.
R.S.C.
a)
leave it more broadly than 2 Powers. – “leave to be settled
internationally.”
E.B.
Diff. repercussions re other countries.
E.Sh.
Has R. asked to come in? If we imply it, there will be
quid pro quo wh. they wdn’t like. Better left as it is.
A.B.
U.S. hasn’t asked, either. V. diff. Parly. sitn unless good
reason why R. not in. O.K. if asked & demurs.
E.B.
Wd. cause terror in Turkey as well as Levant.
P.M.
We’ve a good case: we’re in, trying to get out: so are
U.S. This is only device to avoid suggn of competn
betwn. G.B. & France. Wd. be unwise to bring in
Russia.
b)
Para. 8. Our M/E people alarmed at brk. down of Pool if handed
over. Cdn’t our people be put into mufti & carry on
pro tem.
E.B.
Certainly, will bear in mind.
H.M.
On a) is it essential that U.S. shd. come in. R. may seize on that.
E.B.
a) They have interests b) Mission Schools c) Oil at Haifa &
Tripoli d) genl. interest of U.S. in M/East. Also useful in
arbitration.
Approved general line of approach in Memo.
[ Exeunt E.B. & Sargent.
256
2.
Suspension of Civil Defence Acts.
Ch.E.
Developmts. have made these obligns out of date.
H.M.
Supported proposal in heavy type.
Presumably short & non-cont. Bill.
Atomic bomb has changed sitn.
I proposed to Coaln Govt. tht. H.O. shd. have planning staff.
C.E.
This is being done. Nucleus organisation in country. That was not
taken up with Ty. Diff. to revive on threat of war: wd. like
therefore skeleton organn in country. Want further rpt. to
Cab. on that.
C.E.
We are going into second point & will rpt. on it later.
H.M.
Consider alternative of relying on Services & Police.
G.T.
Our responsib. for Govt. Dpts. – same duties as H.O. impose on
public. The method of future defence will have to be
considered. But we want guidance on erection of new bldgs.
Steel frame with cellars e.g. – shd. tht. be carried on with
stronger cellars: in new Post Offices etc. Shd. we give a lead?
On basis that it is wise precautn when putting up any new
bldg. in certain areas.
W.A.J.
Bad timing to introduce Bill contemplatg. prepns v. air attack.
Inconsistent with faith in W. Organisation.
G.T.
Not only good for shelter – good also r. fire.
P.M.
Put it on fire risk rather than a.r.p.
H.M.
Doubt wtr. WAJ. argument is sound. We shan’t be in a safe world.
And easier to continue existg. provn than to start it de novo
in time when we do fear early war.
P.M.
These ques. don’t arise on this Bill.
T.W.
Reserve power to revive by O-in-C. gives us plenty of room for
manoeuvre.
E.Sh.
Two points a) relieve people of imposs. obligns. No diffy. over that.
b) prepn for future. Will need careful review: Need only
say overhaul in light of new circs.
J.J.L.
Much experience of this in recent years. Pity to let it all go without
effort to hold it in nucleus organn.
No great furore if H.O. said intended to keep somethg. going. Much
easier than to start it up again in a few years’ time.
257
}
} Agreed.
}
A.B.
H.M.’s earlier recommns a) research quietly with C.O.S. No objn.
b) skeleton. Either will be moribund for
lack of function: or insist on function
& become a nuisance.
Wd. accept a) and reject b).
P.M.
Accept this Memo.
Refer future of C.D. to a Cttee - ? L.P. Cttee to report in 2 months.
Agreed.
[ Exit G.T.
3.
Raising of School Age.
E.W.
Our work depends on firm decision & date.
Fresh legn needed if later date.
But long history of procrastination – l.e.a.’s will not move unless it’s
made clear we shall do it in 1947.
Wd. be empty gesture if in end we cdn’t do it. But satisfy. we can do it
if we get decn now & get what labour etc. we need. Have figures
here of what man-power etc., we shd. need. Presume wd. go to
M. Power Cttee.
Don’t want decision deferred – because all depends on early start.
J.W.
Pol. mistake to postpone.
Figures of addl. teachers – but no figures of addl. accommn: returns of
l.e.a.’s not due until end/August. Some people think – I don’t –
better to delay than have overcrowded classes. My diffy less than
E. & W. because less war damage: I can do it.
Want announcement synchronised.
P.M.
Have these proposals bn. discussed with M/W., M/Labour & Ty.?
E.W.
Discussed up to end/45.
Must discuss next year: now have figures: and must talk with M/H.
on ban on bldg. in Ldn.
H.M.
Pol. diffy. is obvious. But Cab. can’t ignore other troubles – wh. pol.
won’t be much less. By ’47 you mayn’t hve the teachers: even
tho’ 20.000 come out of Forces. Overcrowdg., deficiencies of
teachers, lower quality of educn – may lead to worse criticism
than delaying the date.
Don’t like announcing before we know we can do it.
P.M.
This shd. have gone to a Cttee. to work out practical difficulties.
E.W.
25.000 to replace m. women.
} Addl. requiremts.
20.000 to reduce size/classes.
}
It is a pol. decn wtr. we stick to this date. It is an old Labour Party plan
& if we stick to it we can do it. If you first ask wtr. it can be
done the answer will prob. be know [no].
258
Ch.E.
R.A.B. intended to do this on 30.9.46. My view was 1/4 in ’46 or ’47
because of relation to secondary education. Many children won’t
be affected until Sept. 47: & 100% not until Apl. ’48.
Accommn in excess in many places because of drop in child
population.
Reduce size of classes wd. be educationally pref. to raising age. But
politically raising age has bn. Labour slogan for years.
In some backward areas you will get no progress until it is firm.
If we postpone date, progressive l.e.a.’s will be disheartened & the
reactionary authies will assume it will never be raised at all.
A.B.
If this announced now, confusing effect on housing. Many authies
are both: they’ve just bn. told to concentrate on housing:
now drive them on to this: & shortage of staff everywhere.
Get over the first phase before we put the double burden on
them.
In allocatg. resources, we shd. not have our hands tied by an overriding decn re education.
P.M.
L.e.a’s must have some target date.
A.G.
We got the date put in the Bill so as to prevent backsliding by Govt.
Diff. to avoid this date. Some lee-way before 100% operation.
R.A.B. was trying for an early date.
A.B.
All I mean is don’t announce for a few months.
P.M.
Zero date for announcement?
E.W.
Early Sept. because of financial arrangemts. with l.a.’s.
On M/H. points, you can’t build houses w’out schools.
A.B.
Agree they must provide for schools. Diff. matter to go on with
erection.
Don’t break this when we are going thro’ bottle-neck on
techn. l.a. staffs.
P.M.
Doesn’t follow they will get on to techn. stage at once.
R.S.C.
You cd. indicate that we don’t want weight taken off housing.
E.Sh.
Postpone a week or two so we can consider properly on basis of data
wtr. it is practicable.
H.M.
None of us are obstructing M/Ed. But fatal to make decisions w’out
knowing wtr. it is practicable. Long history of that on
educational reform. You can’t govern on slogans. Let it be
examined.
259
H.D.
Cd. the examn be carried out quickly.
P.M.
Cttee. shd. consider it as quickly as possible.
In principle agree to 1/4/47.
Date of announcemt. must depend on our being satisfied it’s
practicable.
Refer to Cttee. & bring it up in a week if possible.
L.P. to arrange for this to be examined.
260
30th August, 1945.
C.M. 26(45).
1.
Assistance for Liberated Europe.
N.B.
Staff for U.N.R.R.A. Asst. for H. Gale. Grafftey-Smith.
Genl. Morgan.
P.M.
Why come to Cab.
N.B.
G-Smith: B/E. won’t let him come.
J.J.L.
W.O. have surrendered some key personnel to U.N.R.R.A.
H.M.
Diffy in getting comp. adm. personnel at home.
N.B.
People who have specl. expce at home.
Can I have support of Cab. in principle.
P.M.
Can’t give over-riding priority for named people. Will give general
blessing only.
Vehicles.
R.S.C.
27/b. 110.180 3 ton
210.370
3.000 six-pounders.
Demand is for 15.000.
}
350.000 lorries all over.
}
}
N.B.
5.000 from Italy: & transport fr. here of 2/3.000 objd.
Cttee to study means of makg. them available for civil reconstn in
Europe.
New priority.
250.000 needed before May in Europe: far-reachg. effects.
P.M.
Gift or on payment – by UNRRA or paying Govts.
N.B.
Principle = runners to non-paying as our contn to UNRRA
non-runners to paying countries who can re-habilitate.
P.M.
What will U.S. do?
N.B.
They are handg. over some now. When I said 100.000 target,
Clayton said they wd. do as well or better.
P.M.
Wd. rather have a target.
R.S.C.
44.000 t. lift = U.N.R.R.A. demand – for urgent needs to Sept.
13.650 t. in sight. 30.000 t. deficit. This is their urgent need.
Deal with this while planning for long-term.
261
S.
We want to be rid. 1.000 a month - & 5.000 lag wh. we want to shed.
E.Sh.
What petrol? Sure you’ve got it? We have little to spare.
P.L.
Global distn shd. take a/c of Burma.
R.S.C.
Disposal scheme. We suggest quick inventory fr. U.S. & fr. us on
L-lease: then try an all-in deal – poss. takg. over on paymt.
of lump sum.
U.S. inventory promised next week. We can estimate quickly our
L-L surpluses. Until we have a deal.
E.B.
Can’t M/S. consult other dpts. and put scheme to L.P. Cttee – as was
done with machine-tools. Then you cd. contribute to UNRRA etc.
R.S.C.
We can cont. fr. B. surpluses. Quick needs.
E.B.
Not overlooking petrol needs.
J.J.L.
W.O. handg. over 10.000 at once to M/S. & more in Sept.
P.M.
Want over-all review – for all purposes. Suggest M/Supply shd. do it.
M/Supply.
Allocatg. Cttee already: let same Cttee consider expediting hand-over
also.
Agreed as above: report to L.P. Cttee.
Clothing.
N.B.
Surplus uniform cloth – against our contn to U.N.R.R.A..
Army stocks.
Agreed. M/Supply to consider.
[Exeunt N.B. & M/Supply
2.
Middle Eastern Policy.
E.B.
Need to treat as one vice separate States.
MESC. brkg. up: can’t keep it in present form: but some organn for
econ. side still requd.
Propose confce with our repres to re-orientate our policy.
Ending of M/State Office w’out any substitute will not be enough.
Good econ. & social policy needed for whole area: to lift standard
of life & give popn a vested interest in continuance of that
standard vouchsafed to them by us.
Palestine excluded because if we called Govr. home wd. be assumed
we were discussg. Jewish problem – wh. must be handled
separately. But can’t ignore in interests of Pal: & we will
therefore keep closely in touch with C.O.
G.H.
Welcome memo. Diffy: how deal with whole w’out Pales. But if F.O.
262
& C.O. work closely together: & if any ques. affectg. Pal. &
Transj [ordan] – cd. Govt. be retained for consultn.
E.B.
Intend to do it next week.
G.H.
He will be here then.
G.H.
Cyprus too – because of decln. Will keep in touch with F.O. on this.
R.S.C.
M.E.S.C. – agree with E.B. U.S. w’drawing as at 1/11. Must
therefore have continuity in Cairo. Overton going out: not clear
what his respons. will be & to whom he will report. Early decn –
& let staff know how continuity will be secured.
E.B.
Want to know fr. those on the spot what changes are requd.
E.E.B.
They have bn. told quietly tht. this is being discussed.
A.V.A.
C-in-C?
E.B.
I will do soc. & econ. Def. Cttee military. Then we can bring them
together.
A.V.A.
We are under pressure fr. Ty. to cut M/E establ. Final decns of F.O.
will make a big effect on our mil. commitments.
E.B.
We must know if Cab. agree tht. this is sphere of special B. interest.
My opinion – if M/E. treated as a whole, gt. scope for mil. economy.
Agreed.
[ Exit Cadogan.
3.
Ceylon Constitution.
A.G.
Urgent because M.S. has bn. here some time.
P.M.
Why was not report circd earlier.
G.H.
Not askg. now for agreemt. with Rpt. Only leave to talk to M.S.
on basis of summary. Didn’t wish therefore to trouble Cab. with
detailed Rpt. before asking them for final decisions on constitn.
P.M.
Diff. to express views on basis of summary alone.
G.H.
No final concln is involved.
My predec. asked M.S. to come over – and he came a month ago
.
A.G.
Clear tht. M.S. is moving twds. Dom. status & wd like to preserve
2/3rds majority. But those points will come out in discn. We
thought G.H. shd. discuss w’out committing himself on these
points. All we want now is guidance for G.H. in these discns.
263
P.M.
Is it wise to talk to him, before Rpt. publd & considered by H.M.G.
A.B.
Undesirable to be rushed – this is a new Govt. Quick decns on pol.
dynamite merely because M.S. happens to be in Ldn.
R.S.C.
Opinion in Ceylon – don’t want to make it set too hard.
Cdn’t G.H. see M.S. – making it clear Rpt. not considered & ask wtr,
if it were adopted, he wd. insist on 2/3rds.
P.M.
Shd. Rpt. have bn. given to M.S.
G.H.
He is only man who cd. get Rpt. thro’, if we accepted it. He was
invited here to discuss his attitude & Ministers attitude twds
the Rpt.
P.M.
When publish?
G.H.
After comments of M.S. & Govt/India.
E.Sh.
He is here. Must see him.
R.S.C.
Invited here by a B. Govt. Must see him. No need to be commd –
but cd. ask his re-actions.
P.M.
Grudgingly assented – now he has the Rpt.
G.H.
Want to get re-actions of M.S. & Govt/India to Rpt.
P.M.
Postpone discn until next week – Rpt. being circulated meanwhile.
Ready to meet on Monday, if necessary.
A.V.A.
Wd. help if Cab. also had Minutes of C. Cttee.
4.
Demobilisation.
G.I.
Services discussg. statemt.
But disturbed at Press campaign. Wd. P.M. see Editors.
Believe all comes from Garry Allighan – Labour M.P.
Want explann of scheme: and need to avoid smashing it.
E.B.
Send for Editor of D. Mail.
A.B.
Trouble not caused by the article but by facts – thousands of men
bored with delay in demobn. This scheme has broken. We shd.
revise it. 10.000 slders. in R.A.F. offered B. release. 1.000
accepted 305 are out. Same applies to all Dpts. B. keeps in
not lets out a) volunteers b) condns c) direction.
Soldier will be worse off then civilian. Disn retained for B releases
relaxed for others.
V. dangerous to touch the Press.
264
G.I.
Certain chaos if you break the scheme. Must adhere to it.
A.B.
Want modifn in face of facts. Resistance of Service Depts.
E.B.
Avoid generalities. Critical sitn with Forces: nos. needed: Service
Dpts diffies
M. Power Cttee mtg on Monday.
One suggn: Serv. Dpts. announcg. own releases. Let M/L. have
sole control of press releases of informn on scheme.
Co-ordination needed. (Generally agreed.) Then vice bald
announcemt, have Press conference to explain why there are
diffces in categories of release etc.
A.V.A.
Agreed. Have already taken it up in Admy.
E.B.
One spokesman for releases as for call-up.
P.M.
More explanation wanted also – people don’t understand.
H.M.
Concerned about uneasiness in H/C. & public. Feeling tht. release
cd. have bn. accelerated. a) Is there room for speeding up of
rate b) are Dpts. working fast enough c) Need to explain.
The P.R. side hasn’t been done well enough. Shd. be more
Press conferences. Greater pains shd. be taken to inform
Press – inform M.P.’s also.
In general, we must govern by explanation.
J.J.L.
In best circs. there will be diffies over demobn.
Public don’t know what happened last time.
If this scheme fails, Heaven help this Govt.
Co-ordn betw. Service Dpts & M/L. is essential & takg. steps to
secure it.
Even so, mischievous statements by Labour M.P. isn’t right.
E.Sh.
There is dissatisfn in Services.
What are we going to do?
Agree we must co-ordinate: but can we improve the Scheme?
Remove anomalies.
Then a Press confce to clear the matter up - & get it across to Forces.
E.B.
Want to keep out of Press Confces – for M/Labour must stand out as
publicly responsible – as I did before.
P.M.
Speed up. Cd. you get it out before weekend?
E.B.
Haven’t got it yet.
G.I.
Interview y’day – v. helpful. They say don’t interfere with scheme.
They realise now some diffies arise fr. our being too honest.
265
T.W.
Ch.E.
That shows informn & explanation is necessary.
Trouble last time – because they mucked about with the scheme.
Main grievance = the rate.
Natural feeling of frustration now war is over.
Remember extent to wh. our troubles last time were due to
disappearance of B. Armies.
x/ Suggest, after Press confce with M/L., b’cast by P.M. emphasising
considns wh. we have to bear in mind – includg. duties of
occupn.
A.B.
Two Mtgs of Housing Cttee decided we were being impeded by rate of
demobn & B. releases not producg. the nos. needed.
Asked last week for mtg. of Man Power Cttee.
Recognise E.B. has much to do. But we have a v. urgent problem.
Will have idle bldg. workers on my hands because Grp B. not operatg.
Let M.P. Cttee be empowered to consider modifns.
In addn to x/ - hope M/L. will brk. down his figures in public
announcemts.
E.B.
Home forces & abroad. Remember the need for fairness.
General explanation of demobn scheme.
E.W.
L.a.’s need of specialists – delay in vetting.
E.B.
I will see.
266
4th October, 1945.
C.M. 38(45).
1.
Expiry of Emergency Powers (Defence) Acts.
P.M.
Considered by Cttee?
C.E.
No.
H.M.
Agree. Period might have bn. longer: but cd. be covered by
Expiring Laws.
G.I.
Cl. b. Think this right: but shd. consult employers & workers acc.
to promise. M/L. to do it.
Agreed.
2.
War Criminals.
E.B.
R. & U.S. insist on indictg. G. general staff. Ques: is it desirable to
indict the High Command as such, not individuals. They were
carrying out orders of Govt. We were incldg. Keitel & Jodl
as individuals. But acc. to voting under W. Cr. Agreemt.,
2 will carry it.
E.Sh.
Critical sitn y’day. We opposed because not a group or organn &
because orders of Govt. But U.S. say some evce tht. pre-war
G. general staff diverted money to Nazi party funds.
U.S. attitude due to U.S. newspp. pressure.
H.M.
If shown tht. G. genls. gave orders involvg. brutality etc., we shd be
ill-advised to oppose.
P.M.
On what lines are they to be indicted?
E.Sh.
Group declared criminal: then indivs. to be indicted for membership
of it.
U.S. idea = proceed thus v. G. genl. staff. as a crim. organn.
J.
Under Agreemt. majority decides on trial. If U,S, & R. favour it,
we can’t stop it.
P.M.
Propose we acquiesce.
E.B.
Agreed.
Description of Baltic States.
Argument in CFM. on “Sov. national.” I refused to acquiesce in
Sov. demand to declare all persons e. of Curzon Line to be
Sov. citizens w’out right of option. Right of asylum. Left
to dipl. channels.
If we agree to this, might be quoted r. us as implying our recogn.
267
tht. these States are incorpd in Sov Union.
E.Sh.
R. reasonable with us: but won’t give way on this w’out refce
to Moscow, wh. wd. wreck our time-table.
E.B.
No need to describe locality. Charge with crime only.
E.Sh.
They won’t accept that. Cd. we agree to it in R. text: but not in
B. text.
E.B.
Awkward. Don’t want anythg. to prejudice the main issue.
J.
Prosecutor shd. write a lr. tht., tho’ R. describe locality thus, we
don’t regard this as implying recogn of inclusion of B. States in
Sov. Union.
Agreed: as at x/ thro’ dipl. channel.
[Exit E.Sh.
3.
P.L.
Indian Diplomatic Representation at Washington.
Turned down by Coal. Govt.
Want it re-considered – India Cttee also.
Agreed.
4.
Secret Sessions of Parliament.
H.M.
Journals don’t make it clear tht. M.P. was exonerated. Cd. get entry
to that effect included.
But M.P. wants make a statemt. also to H/C. & constituents.
Ques. then arises wtr. we shdn’t repeal D.R. & leave him free to
do so. On the whole, I favour this.
A.V.A.
May Intell. people look thro’ them first.
H.M.
Nothing in the Journals.
P.M.
Consultn with Opposn?
H.M.
See para. 3. No trouble over that.
A.
H/Lds. entries so brief tht. they convey no informn.
We agree.
P.M.
Point is: you relieve Members who were present from ban on
referrg. to what happened.
A.B.
Under Privilege it wd. be improper – tho’ you cd. no longer prosecute.
H.M.
Done after last war – when D.R. expired Aug. 1921.
Agreed: Publish & revoke D.R.
268
Enter N.B.
5.
Site of United States Organisation.
N.B.
Out-manoeuvred y’day. Agreed to private Session w’out knowg.
this was to be discussed. But said at end didn’t regard as
final.
Case for Europe is v. strong.
H.D.
Don’t assume all are agreed on that.
N.B.
Poss. U.S. will change to E. coast e.g. Philadelphia. That might
split those favourg. San Francisco.
Point for Cab. now – vote at present unfair because Europe
inadequ. repd. If all Eur. members present 10 votes 400.m.
21 v. for 120 m. go to Latin America. Wrong to make it
final for long-term. Worse y’day because Persia, Yugosl.,
Czecho. occupied by R. Armies – wd. have voted diff if free.
And that decided the S. Am. vote who wd. have voted for
Geneva if chance of majority for it.
Ask for authy to represent to Czech & other Govts incldg. Doms.
tht. it is wrong to have long-term decn taken on this basis.
And P.M. to wire to Truman.
P.M.
This is only recommn wh. must come up to main body.
Why do R. want U.S.
N.B.
To keep us out of Europe. They have changed their minds.
H.D.
Had this memo. come up earlier I wd. have argued tht. UNO. must
contain either U.S. or Sov. or both. We look like losing Sov.
That makes it the more important to keep U.S. in. Best way of
doing so, is to let it have it’s H.Q. in U.S.A. On merits Canada
vice U.S. But if U.S. want it, let it have it.
If we still want to press for Europe, want to suggest alternative sites.
E.B.
No Press confce or public agitation. recommn will come up in Nov.
Let it ride meanwhile. Don’t want more trouble over
“procedure” after C.F.M. Want to take soundings first.
A.
Austr. & N.Z. want it in U.S. Canada no strong view, will ride with
U.S. view. Only dif. Dom. view for Europe = S. Afr.
Any pressure on Doms. wd. have opp. effect to that desired.
Support E.B.
E.B.
Byrnes isn’t keen. Let us wait & see if State Dpt. take an initiative.
A.V.A.
M’while wd. C.O.S. be asked to give view on ques. wtr. contn of
C.C.S. wd. be affected by havg. this & its Mil. Cttee in U.S.A.
A.B.
Supported H.D. (So did Addison)
269
N.B.
If it were ques. of retaing. U.S. we wd. agree with H.D. But U.S.
Govt. have no policy on this. Many people think if in U.S.
a) wd. become mixed up with U.S. politics b) way to brk. up
isolationism is to secure stream of Americans to Europe.
H.D.
Further Cab. discn before final decision.
Agreed: take no overt action: await developments.
[ Exit N.B.
[ Enter C.O.S.
6.
Middle-Eastern Policy.
E.B.
Summd main issues.
Rpt. results fr. examn in consultn with C.O.S., Dpts here (incldg. D.O.
x/ & C.O.) and repres in M/East. When policy begins to be
reflected in improvemt of condns of the common people ……..
Removal of troops fr. Egypt. Suggest careful examn of ques. of gettg.
our main defences in B. territory (CIGS. spoke of Mombasa).
Defence of Egypt then shd. be Anglo-Egyptian responsibility
on mutual agreemt.
Levant States. Talks with Bidault. Exchanges of lrs. with Molotov
on w’drawal fr. Iran before 2/3/46. in acc. with Treaty. We
must do that: & it will clear up Iran diffies. But in Levant more
awkw. posn for us. We went in for war-reasons. Spears has left
us with much to live down. Yet Fr. are in worse posn still –
bitterness against them. Tried for plan by wh. both w’draw:
gettg. near agreemt. Fr. fear tht. if trouble then arises we shall
send in troops. Or before that seek influence thro’ advisers etc.
Want support clear fr. Cab. for cut decn . Fr. want assurance of our
support for their claim to a base here. Not ready to give that &
promise only consultn at the time.
Thought unwise to bring repres of Levant on to Cttee at first. Fr wd.
suspect a trick. Want to establ. relns. with Fr. in wh. we can
have ready consultns on all subjects. And this = test case for establ.
Anglo-Fr. confidence.
C.I.G.S.
On x/ we are examing. No doubt good oppies at Mombasa. Diffy = road &
rlway commns to sea and port facilities. Wd. prevent quick
movement.
Considered also Cyrenaica. (if we get it).
Also para 5(e). Big questions: being examined.
P.L.
No mention of Pol. Res. Persian Gulf – servant of G/India. Reg. co.ordn
coverg. eg. oil, aviation etc. shd. include Pol. Resident.
Wd. rather do it from India. If we bring in a man resident in Persia I shall
be in trouble with R.
E.B.
P.L.
You already include B. Minister Tehran.
P.M.
Consider doing it thro’ S/S India & G/India. Agreed: F.O. &
270
India Off. to consider.
A.V.A.
Don’t overlook defence of Suez Canal.
E.B.
C.O.S. must look after this in their genl. examn.
A.
Want authy. to talk to Doms.
P.M.
Two ques. a) gen. policy b) machinery
E.Sh.
Does 5(iii) apply to oil concessions?
U.S. are seekg. them in this area & we weren’t disposed to resist that.
E.B.
Para. 5 (iii) not intended to modify present attitude re oil.
E.Sh.
Will w’drawal of forces fr. Persia prejudice our oil posn.
E.B.
Too risky to fail to comply with Treaty obligns. R. wd. stay too. Permanent
friction.
P.M.
This is certainly right.
A.V.A.
Much in favour of bringing U.S. respons. into M/East. Another matter to
seek facilities for concns. to U.S. – might provoke diffy. with Russia.
E.Sh.
Only ask Cab. bear in mind our oil interest = big foreign asset.
Agreed: watch the oil posn: genl. understanding tht. it wd
be useful to get U.S. polit. respons. in these areas.
A.B.
P.4 of memo. Arab League. Ad hoc relations enough. They have caused so
much diffy. Don’t re-inforce it by establg. regular contacts.
E.B.
They are there. Read in conjunctn. with Def. proposals. But will keep as
informal as possible.
G.H.
a) We will co-operate to the full. Can’t help much with Scientific Staffs.
b) Strategic. Want Cyprus posn considered again in light of this. C.O.S. to
report.
G.I.
Shd. We delay I.L.O. Confce on M/East?
E.B.
Yes: too early. Can’t get results yet: no pt. in gettg. resolutions. Wd.
only produce disappointment.
Agreed: { Policy approved: subject to points above.
{ Machinery .. : E.B. Minister at Beirut will be
left out for time being.
7.
Palestine.
271
P.M.
Ask that Washington Telegram be read. Read out by N.B.
U.S. misunderstand the facts. Don’t realise tht. immigration of Jews
= the issue.
H.M..
a) Widespread misunderstanding of the facts.
Implication tht. this 100.000 will solve European problem. In fact,
millions - & not all Jews.
Statement tht. Jews are still being ill-treated in concentn camps in
Europe.
Cd. something be done to give the facts.
b) Danger tht. anti-Semitism be provoked here & in U.S.
Method of explaining facts: Debate or W. Paper v. unhappy.
means.
Perhaps Press Confce when P.Q. answered. F.O. & C.O. to handle.
Or any other means?
G.H.
Intended to suggest prepn of Press before P.Q.
Tension in Palestine as well as in U.S.
No soln. can please both sides. No ques. tht. in Pal. they are lining up for
trouble.
Timing of P.Q. earliest date 23/10 fr. mil. pt. of view.
P.M.
Initiative will pass from us. Questions already down – more will follow.
Will be demand for debate. We can’t hold off any statement until
troops are there.
E.Sh.
a) There will be anti-Semitism anyway. That needn’t influence it.
b) Futile to think of passing buck to U.S.
c) This must be related to retn. in Europe. We haven’t the facts on that.
First step: ascertain facts in central Europe & do our best to remedy any
evil condns disclosed. We shd. declare out intentns. on that – our
whole-hearted desire to improve the lot of Jews in Europe.
Suggest therefore use of formula “Pendg. considn by U.N.O., to
whom we propose to refer ques. we are takg. immed. steps to
ameliorate condns of people concerned.”
That is the line we shd. take – P.M. announcing in H/C.
Cd we not send out a Commn at once.
P.M.
But there is no allegn of our ill-treatmt. of Jews. It is in U.S. Zone. I’m not
going to say in H/C anythg. wh. implies any ill-treatmt in our Zone.
E.Sh.
V. well: make that clear in statement in H/C. And put it up to U.S. Govt.
tht they shd do something in their Zone.
H.M
Does E. Sh. know what propn of Jews want to leave Europe?
N.
For 20 yrs. assocd with Jews & Palestine.
Displaced persons in B. Zone & no serious complaints of treatment.
Earl Harrison’s rpt. related to U.S. Zone primarily & related to sitn
earlier than August.
272
My informn a) 4/500.000 Polish d.p.’s. 20/25.000 are Jews.
b) German Jews mostly retd to homes in Germany.
b) have no business, house or possessns & returng. to bitter memories of
persecution. Feel imposs. to settle in Germany. Relatively few in
number.
a) no complts. re treatment - except prs. that come fr. camps where phys.
& moral condn v. bad, while non-Jewish Poles are in better state,
because they’ve bn. working. In same camps. Diffy. because P.
Liaison Offr. give leadership of camps to Xiau Poles.
Trouble mainly over desire not to return to Poland.
Form of statement proposed is rather cold.
G.H.
Intend to amend it.
N.
Ministers man had no convns. With Weismann. – moderatg. influence in
being undermined because he has not had contact with P.M., F.O. or
C.O.
G.H.
Have met him every time he asked.
E.B.
I’m seeing him to-morrow. Had to put him off because of C.F.M.
C.E.
Mtg. y’day of Refugees Cttee. Gathered from C.O. F.O. M/State & Ty.
who were there that one diffy. is we haven’t declared that mere fact
of Jewish naty makes a man repatriable. In U.S. camps. G. Jews are
classified as stateless because of G. law.
H.M.
But Nuremberg racial laws repealed.
C.E.
Ch. Rabbi v. anxious we shd. admit to U.K. no. of people who can’t face
return to own villages etc., in Germany. Shall soon be asked to
define attitude to that.
J.
Hope whatever course we take we shan’t tie ourselves to W. Paper.
Last essay in appeasement. Wrong legally because involves contd
breach of Mandate. Indefensible morally. Hope we shan’t imply we
are bound by W. Paper even in interim period before submn to
U.N.O. Labour voted on 6. 3. 40 v. W. Paper.
Hope we’ll follow E.Sh. line – promisg. [to get full informn].
Can’t neglect human problem. Let us say we are takg steps [ ]: &
meanwhile shall admit to Palestine the nos. up to full absorption capacity
of the county.
P.M.
a) R., Czech, Poles are drivg them out & then we are expd to put them into
P.
b) Don’t want to be bound by W. Paper. But what is understandg. with
Arabs?
E.B.
Letter fr. W.S.C., ?F.D.R. Truman – promising consultn.
I shall have to say this = U.S. electoral ramp. If U.S. go. on pressing it.
273
E.B.
Big trouble if B. troops have to go in & start fighting.
In light of this a.m.’s discsn, I can’t help thinkg (w’out wishg. to pass the
buck) no use saying puttg to the U.N.O. – will be taken as delay.
Can’t decide this am. Will confer with C.O. & try to put up alternative.
Line 1) refer ultimate probl. of P. to U.N.O.
2) But interim probl. incldg. Jews in Europe raises manifold diffies.
Refer to problems of Pol. (Pol. Army & anti-semitism).
Room for 50.000 in U.N.R.R.A. camps in N. Africa, if they were
used. Wd. give a chance.
3) Anglo, Am. Commn with 3 tasks
a) investign of J. posn in Europe.
b) What relief by immigrn to Palestine
c) What other reliefs - e.g. France, U.S. U.K.
d) Consult Arabs & Jews in confce first on immigr. second
long-term policy.
Rpt. to Govts. on interim action; to U.N.O. on long-term
Alternative: Smuts to preside over B. & U.S. repns. 3 main Commy.
Possibly too, add Australian.
Agreed: Palestine Cttee to consider quickly P.O. suggns made
to-day.
Wd like to tell Halifax on Sunday. So you can announce genl. intentns
soon as H/C meets – as our genl. approach.
To come to Cab. Friday p.m. if possible.
H.M.
H/C. wd. wait if you promised firmly statemt. in following week.
274
9th October 1945
C.M. 39 (45)
1.
National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) Bill
A.G.
Had bn. understood Bill agreed: that was why L/P said Bill wdn’t differ
substantially fr. that introd. by Coalition Govt.
Now, however, T.U.C. have put fwd. further proposals. Soc Ser. Cttee.
y’day broadly in agreemt. with my memo.
Tried to hold T.U. leaders to their word – w’out success.
Some reason to believe 45/= wd be acceptable. That wd mean another 10
is coutce.
Shd. fall on workman. Believe Allen wd. accept that addtn rather than
lose the addl. benefit.
Secondly “compositor’s finger” suggest 25% addn in nos. of loss of emplt.
Diffices again partic because of repercussions on war pensions.
P.M.
Original proposals were accepted?
J
Agreed, tho’ the consultns were informal.
Diffy. here is repercussions on rest of scheme. 103/6 = max. for married +
1 – as against 45% under qual. scheme. This = original scheme.
Marks v. gt. Diffce between accident in and out of emplt. If this gap
is even further widened as now proposed it will be diff. to avoid
pressure for increases in qual. scheme.
“Compositor’s eye” – gets twds. old princ. of wages – also hardship with
examn in widw. cases.
J.G.
Cttee came to me as fr. Congress. In same week deputtn from miners.
Various pts. But these were two major points. On the loss of 4
fingers on right hand = 40% incapacity only: this is much worse
than existing system.
Said tht. unless these 2 pts met they wd. oppose Bill strongly.
On prev. “acceptance” they said accepted only as best they cd then get.
A.G.
Allen’s attitude since then has become more conciliatory.
H.D.
No complete pictures yet of advances in whole field of social
improvement. Repercussions if we yield at first Bill to be presented.
Not sure wtr. M.P.’s are takg. same line as T.U.C. members.
Worried ab. pressure groups.
Not so much concerned at para. 3(a).
Para. 3(b) however, is a serious grievance – always was even under old
Bill. Agreed strongly: workman are being asked to pay contns for
first time & you tak fr. them. their right to ask court to assess their
real loss. This is the real diffy.: believe it wd. be easier to get 3(a)
w’drawn if 3(b) is conceded than other way round.
T.U.C. don’t seriously say they’d rather lose the Bill.
275
H.M.
Reln with other scheme – I have always argued there is a case for
differentiation. And we got that accepted. We have raised basic rate,
to meet workers’ argument re single man, to 40%. But we build on
that, right up to 103/6.
M/L in this argument overlooks the other side – where disability incurred
and no compensn awarded.
My fear: competition bidding, T.U.C. & miners & miners M.P.’s. If we
are going to make concessions, make them quick & stand by them.
R.S.C.
Must take a/c of fact tht. Govt. has changed. Quite legit. for T.U.C. to ask
us to go further than Coaln Govt. wd. have gone.
Para 3(b) is more important than 3(a). Second = genl. Standards. First
long-standing diffy. – loss of special skill. Reasonable (tho not
strictly logical) case for special machinery for assessg. addl. payment
for that.
Don’t know addl. cost.
A.G.
Addl. 10 wd. cover both a) and b).
R.S.C.
What wd. b) cost?
A.B.
But this wd. introduce v. diff. principle – not easy to decide these issues.
E.B.
On b) we are going to spend millions on re training: & that isn’t taken.
into a/c.
Cdn’t you meet it by inserting in b) addl. condn that he can’t by re-training
fit himself to earn equivalent amount in alternative occupn.
Danger of demoralising man by encouraging him to make no effort at
alternative emplt.
E.Sh
This is v. important for miners. Silicosis cases: anxious re re-training.
They shld. be re-trained.
Favour high compensn, but not good tht. men disabled fr. followg. own
occupn shd. be left in that static condn for life.
J.G.
Provn in Bill for re-training & shd. use them to the full. Agree tht. words
cd. be added as suggd by E.B.
W.P.
If 3(b) is accepted, we shall be pressed to give some concn to war
pensioners.
We’ve tried to avoid it in the past by re-training.
E.B.
Isn’t it possible to promise considn on these lines as Cttee point?
J.G.
They regard it as pt. of principle, & will contend for it on 2nd Reading.
Miners’ M.P.’s support T.U.C. view.
P.M.
Statement on principle cd. be made on 2nd Readg.
R.S.C.
As in ins. in margin of 3(b).
276
General agreement on 3(b) as amendment.
H.D.
Remember there will be irresistible pressure for same concession on war
pensions.
x
/ That is a falling commitment, however.
Is it necessary then to concede 3(a). Danger of its running into other
schemes.
G.A.I.
Many workmen insure separately v. sickness: not, however, v. accident.
Also they are paying for it, for 1st time.
E.B.
With re-training provn I believe 3(b) will cost v. little indeed.
198.000 reduced to 17.000 by re-training – hard core of unemployed at
outset/war.
Whole system of treatment is different now.
G.B.
a) Don’t like harking back to a relation to earnings.
b) If Tribunal says unfit for training, then unanswerable case for 100%
pension.
A.V.A.
On x/ peace-time pensions code wd. have to carry the same provision.
Agreed: Para 3(a) and 3(b) as qualified.
Enter: Tomlinson Wilmot Whiteley Marshall.
2.
Housing
A.B.
1) White Paper on position as we found it.
2) Blue Paper on facts wieldg. statistics.
Housing = largely adminve & dependent on l.a.’s. Want to reverse balance
in favour of l.a. bldg. of houses to let. Subsidy rates get agreed with Ty.
But want to make it clear tht. whole success depends on reducg. costs.
Strong campaign for relaxg. controls, - to let private enterprise in.
That wd. produce chaos & inflated costs.
Licensing 1200 (1300 in Ldn.). To supplement l.a. bldg. Will restrict
Powers if l.a. amends it. But need for it in order to use labour tht.
wdn’t get in to the l.a. programme.
Bldg. industry demoralised – employers & workers. Stiffening up
needed. Larger output essential. Ldn. repairs lamentable.
Other forms of bldg. not cheaper, quicker or better: but they
economise in scarce bldg. skills. Recommendg. them for consn of l.a.’s.
Can we find an alternative form wh. we cd. impose on l.a.’s? Not yet. A
steel house mock-up ready: & we’ve said we’ll take 25.000 pairs.
Won’t get delivery until beginning ’47. Wd. be useful supplement to
us & run-on might be exported.
System of standardised house constn is essential as discipline or whip for
bldg. industry.
277
Am apptg workg. team under Bernal to see whr we can select fr. various
systems one which we cd. recommend to l.a.’s as “building”.
Land acquisition.
Diffics in ’44. Housg. Cttee satisfied no way of
expediting by modifn of existg. Statute. “Referencing” in any form
will take too long.
Recommend therefore applying the ’44 Act passed for tempy houses. Will
be stoutly resisted.
Conversion: Don’t want to use powers at once because extravagant in
labour. But want the powers for use later. Restriction covenants wh.
prevent conversion into flats.: enquiries procdg. To devise means of
enabling leaseholder to set aside the restriction covenants in such
cases.
Under-occupied houses. Report D.R. enabling l.a. to acquire such houses.
Hope is to keep that as a reserve power. Will start on basis of an
appeal with little emphasis on the compulsory powers. L.a.’s will be
authd to make the small alterations reqd: but don’t expect tht. much
such work will be done.
Purchase of houses for conversion to offices. Propose D.R. requiring
consent in such cases of housing authy.
No delay in authorising tenders. 60.000 already authd. Diffs.: L.a. haven’t
staffs to go to tender. Appeal again for help of Service Ministers.
600 techn. Staffs of l.a.’s still not released. Only 9.250 houses now
bldg. We cd. have made that 20.000 if those staffs released.
P.M.
What action taken on my Directive?
J.J.L.
I’ve given instrns on this. And heard of no diffs.
A.V.A.
Said the same.
P.M.
Any specific instances of failure to release?
A.B.
Will Service Ministers follow up these cases?
P.M.
M/H. shd. do that.
A.B.
We do it at official level weekly.
H.M.
Cdn’t Serv. Ministers ask for fortnightly report to them personally.
G.B.
We can’t get dif. answers, even negative: it’s nothg. we can get hold of.
P.M.
Delay is as bad as a refusal. Shd. be taken up at higher level.
J.J.L.
If lists are available, I will look into it .
E.B.
Cdn’t N.B. co-ordinate thro. Man Power machinery.
278
P.M.
Health Ministers shd. take up unsatisf. cases & report to me if he can’t get
satisfn. Let me have a report: how many cases outstanding, how
long, and why.
A.B.
Finally: Furnished Lets. Tribunals in areas where necessary. Legn
necessary.
P.M.
Statement in House. Genl. picture showg. intentns. Some actions under
D.R. Are these ready?
A.B
Yes.
P.M.
And legn?
A.B.
Subsidy not yet. Simplified procedure for acquisition is in hand.
P.M.
Make sure you indicate how these powers will be taken & be sure you can
fit them in to leg. p’mme.
A.G.
Diff. is get these in.
A.B.
Suggd put them into one Bill. But misc. provns Bills not popular.
G.B.
In Scotland, progress not unsatisf. if we cd. only solve labour shortage.
Even in S. Scottish ind. belt, hopeful signs of progress save for labour
shortage.
H.M.
This statement will be bound to provoke demand for debate prob. 2 days.
Wd. have bn. better to take them on a Bill: & save Parly time.
Para. 2. These figures are same as coalition Govt.’s. were criticised.
Awkward to produce them.
A.B.
Not going to.
H.M.
V. well.
Many negatives in this memo. V. serious pol. diffy. in refusg. to include
houses for sale. No need to begin war v. bldg. societies.
Tempry houses to be stopped.
Collection of odds & ends. Nothg. distinctive about this. Much quality
w’out detail – eg. Manuf. of components.
Case for W. Paper on tempry houses. But don’t want the proposed Blue
Paper.
Wd. rather have this tidied up into distinctive policy. And wd. prefer to
debate it on a Bill rather than up in the air.
A.B.
But the Bill wd. restrict the discns.
H.M.
Not if it were a reasonable wide Debate.
E.Sh.
On subsidy Bill you cd. have a wide debate.
279
T.W.
Complete exclusion of rural housing will also raise a storm. In any genl.
debate there must be special reference to that
Reliance on l.a’s will produce v. few houses in rural areas. Para. 5: no
100 Labour Members representg. agr. (or rural) constituencies.
Storm will come therefore not only from opposition.
A.B.
Of course I sh. include a reference to rural housing. But we haven’t yet
had enough data on wh. is base subsidy.
T.W.
Neither M/H. nor Ty. has consulted M/Ag. Yet re rural housg.
More cosultn on there specl. problems before a genl. statement made in
I.D.C.
P.M.
Discussed by Housg. Cttee?
A.B.
This brings together many ques discussed on that Cttee.
A.
Supported H.M’s obsus. – shd. be more positive related to lgn.
[Exit R.S.C. & P.L.]
a) Rural housing. P.O.W. will be reportd.
b) Believe M/W. and M/S. shd. build. Default powers won’t do. Prefer
direct bldg. by Dpts. I refer particularly to rural area.
Won’t get harvest year after next unless this is done.
A.B.
All these suggst have bn. considered.
Effect on l.a. bldg. of establsd Housg. Commn.
P.M.
We must adjourn this discn & bring up again.
Some of these pts. shd. have bn. discussed before Cab. Stage. E.g. rural
housing.
Don’t rush into debate without a better policy than this.
E.B.
a) Co-op Bldg/Socies will considg. Housg. Commns in some regions –
complain at not being consulted. They have a good contn to make.
b) Don’t want Housg. Commsn. But want M/W to be empowered to
build; & don’t see how you will drive prices down otherwise.
Example Supply Dept. costing durg. war enforced by Dpt.
experience.
c) London. Repairing 100 yr. old houses, when vacant sites are adjacent.
Wd. it not be more economical to build new houses on those sites,
wh. are ready serviced.
A.B.
Said at outset this was largely an adminve problem. That is why any
statement must look patchy.
Co-opv Societies. Can’t add to nos. of houses by new money, so long as
bottleneck is labour and materials
280
P.M.
What of bottlenecks a) lack of l.a. techn. staffs.
b) inefficiency of l.a. in rural areas.
P.M.
But further considn needed, in general, by Housg. Cttee.
A.G.
List of Bills required – because Legislation Programme.
P.M.
And preciser the issues, & clear as many Ministerial disagreements as
possible.
Exit: Invitees for item 2
Enter Noel Baker.
3.
Syria and the Lebanon
E.B.
Asked approval for Annex A.
Ask for no commitment to Annex B.
J.J.L.
W.O agree to that. But if any unilateral w’drawal by us while our troops
remain there will be trouble. Thus ask no w’drawal by B. save
simultan. with Fr.
E.B.
We went for war purposes. We have no right to stay there. I’ve taken that
line with R. on w’drawal fr. Iran.
AVA.
Agree with that. But have you considered how it will go in confce
Fr. will keep Beirut. And Fr. will be able to block anythg. in
Security Council.
E.B.
Let that be an issue between Fr & Syrians. Not an issue involvg. G.B.
My offer to w’draw must be clear & unconditional.
J.J.L.
Can we find accommn between the 2 if we go & Fr. remain.
E.B.
Not so much diffy. in Lebanon. They may agree to Fr. & B. troops
remaining
From Syria both Fr. & ourselves must go.
J.J.L.
If there is trouble then, we are in command. Remember that.
[Exit N. Baker].
4.
Dock Strike
G.A.I.
a) 6 perishable food ships in Lpl. approve with Labour.
b) Can I offer immediate Cttee of enquiry into condns in the docks.
On a) 2 contain bacon, & immed. cut in rations will follow.
G.B.
Trouble? dispersal of concentn of ships in Lpl. has led to drop in wages.
On a) wdn’t hesitate if I was M/L. for food ships. But response shd. not
be shared as Cab. decision.
281
5.
Palestine
E.B.
P.Q. – promise statement “at early date”. May not be ready this week.
P.M.
Try to get it to Cab. this week.
282
11th October, 1945
C.M. 40 (45)
1.
Palestine
H.M.
Appreciation of E.B.’s contn to this.
Summary report.
E.B.
Re-studied in light of resoltn at Lab. Party Confer. – debates – pledges by
various Govts. - differences in India.
Tried first for M/E policy. Wanted to be able to reveal our proposals for
M/E. simultaneously with approach to special problem of Palestine.
Took a/c U.S. posn – only partly pol. – wh. risks poisoning AngloAm. relns. Cttee unwilling to accept U.S. view that European Jews
must be found home outside Europe. But they have suffered so
much that they are apprehensive of repetn & some a/c must be
taken of that. Harrisons rpt. not based on real investign. Must have
such an investign.; will show some Jews must be removed fr. Europe.
U.S. must take their share.
Caveat. 170.000 Poles. may be left with us in conseqce of W.S.C.’s
implied pledge. Not all Jews. We must make that oblign clear to U.S.
Para 3(iii) will at once raise ques. how many Palestine cd. take.
Interim period betwn. rpt. on Palestine & decision by U.N.O.
Long term arrangements in Palestine.
Seen Weizmann, with G.H. He believes a truce might be possible if its
made clear that we are going to try to find a solution. Told him going
away for 7 days. This will give chance to consult U.S. Even if they
decline to come in, I wd. go on with this policy.
G.H.
Appreciation of E.B.’s part in this.
I & Dpt. fully agree with Rpt.
Weizmann wants to know something before he leaves for U.S. on 22/10.
He was deeply impressed by what we said to him.
Time fr. beginning of enquiry to point of final decn – will be diff. period.
There is trouble in P. already.
P.M.
Q & A needs improvement.
Shd. make it clear tht. Truman has agreed to discn of immigration.
Shd. show tht. this is new approach.
E.B.
Not a political draft. Wd. prefer you to wait until U.S. man replied.
Let us settle the policy first.
P.M. agreed.
P.M.
a) E.B. has put this in picture with M/E policy. Does he intend to publish
M/E policy simultaneously, so tht. there will be somethg. for Arabs
too?
283
E.B.
Can’t answer yet. Had thought tht. vice public announcement. I wd. say
somethg. to Arabs when I approach them. But there is also Levant &
revision in Egypt. Wd. like to reflect on dangers fr. that pt. of view
of a public statement.
P.M.
Put somethg. in answer.
b) Must remove impcn tht. all Jews want to go or will stay when they get
there. Good therefore tht. 2 things shd. be linked together. Problem
is, however, getting over interim period before final decision.
E.B.
Various expert rpts. on what cd. be absorbed in South of P. Want the
Commn to look into all these pts.
E.Sh.
Para 7(b). “Modificn’. If, as stated, E.B. means “increased” better to make
that clear.
M/E. policy must come into picture. Jewish trouble = economic. Arab
pressure & national, racial, religious on the surface: & among the
leaders, but for majority of rank and file it’s not. And we shd.
therefore make it clear tht. we have a policy to solve the social &
economic problems of the populations in this area. Hope this can be
made clear in statement in H/C.
P.L.
Thanks to E.B. Support report. Three remarks
a) Para. 10 fear introdn of U.S. will make it harder to deal with
Arabs. Warning – see no way out.
b) Proposed tht. Commn shd. go to Europe first. Risk tht. minds will
be prejudiced by hardships of J. here: any public repn will
inflame fears of Arabs. Cd. they go out as P. first? Wd. like
Cab. to consider that.
c) Effect in India – even Hindus, let alone Muslims, alarmed. Want
Viceroy to be told even before commn made to U.S., where it will
prob. leak.
E.B.
Intended to communicate with Doms. & India: hope to get their support
before this approach made to U.S.
H.M
Agree to inform. But can’t hold Parly sitn more than 10 days or so.
H.D.
Agreed – sooner we put this to U.S. the better. Risk of violence in P.
A.
Believe Doms. will welcome this.
E.B.
Wd. like opportunity to consider all points raised: & settle finally with
P.M., L.P., C.D. including P.L.’s pt. (b).
G.H.
High Commsn P. shd. also be informed.
Agreed.
284
C.E.
Pressure on H.O. because of this delay to admit individ. Jews to UK.
Since liberation not more than 12 admitted. But situation is getting
v. difficult.
N.B.
Timing in H/C. Trusteeship Council expected to be in being in January.
Agreed: Policy approved in principle
E.B. to consider method & also forum of statement
Doms. Viceroy & High Commsn P. is to be informed.
P.M.
Meanwhile need for greatest discretion by all who have seen these pp.
[Exit Honr. Shinwell]
2.
International Labour Conference
G.AI.
Summard three pts. raised in memo.
Refce to L/N. – while it stands Russians won’t come in.
E.W.
Is I.L.O. wise in going fwd. with this resoltn at all? Moving into new fields
for I.L.O.
We object to resoltn on education para. 5. Danger of overlap between
U.N.E.S.C.O. & I.L.O.
Suggest all resoltn on eductn be postponed until after mtg. of U.N.E.S.C.O.
in (?) Nov.
G.E.
Supported E.W.’s view. Scope of U.N.E.S.C.O. shdn’t be prejudiced.
G.AI
The educn section is v. small part: don’t want therefore to oppose whole
resolution. Delegates can be instructed to make a reservation re
education.
N.B.
Agreed with E.W. Same wd. apply to para. 3. Clear tht. various organs. of
U.N.O will be apprd to deal with these matters. Reference is coordinatg. Cttees. for link with U.N.O. organs. might meet the case.
A.B.
I.L.O. shd. not attempt to overlap with functional organsn wh. may be
estabd by or under auspices of U.N.O. If that were stated as a general
propn, it wd. be enough.
R.S.C.
Will para 5(3) meet it?
E.W.
No
R.S.C.
Why not?
E.B.
Workg. Cttee. at I.L.O. Confnc shd. be asked to pass a resolution welcomg.
apptmnt of U.N.E.S.C.O. & passing its view to them.
P.M.
Can’t deal with this w’out seeing draft Resolution. What does it propose?
285
G.A.I
Issue questionnaire & frame recommdn to Govts. on that informn when
obtained.
P.M.
This wd. involve going outside I.L.O. scope. Why accept even the
principle?
You shd. press for resolution to be amended to take a/c of the functional
organs. estd by U.N.O.
E.B.
Let M/L pick out juvenile educn, as distinct from vocational training, &
recommend that this is remitted to U.N.E.S.C.O.
Agreed
[Exit N.B.]
3.
Migration
A.
a) Treatment – some concessions as in Annex.
b) Approval of immigrants – got nowhere yet with Aust. Govt.
c) Assisted passages for migrants other than ex-Service.
Propose: consult shipping Cos. then discuss with C/E.
Ask for authority to conclude agreement re ex-service people (subject to
later report. to Cab. on “approval”) & to open discns with shipping
cos.
H.M.
Falling popultn. Do we want to encourage?
J.J.L.
Many enquiries fr. Service men. Good to send some, to strengthen Imp.
ties.
T.W.
Any reason to suppose tht. immigrants will be forced out of towns on to
land. I sh. want an assurance on that before I advised anyone to go.
A.
Danger the other way – tht. they will pick our best artisans.
A.B.
Why do we wish to stimulate emigration? Why subsidise passages? Much
better to leave it to natural attractions of economic opportunities.
Don’t load the magnet.
30.000 subsidised emigrants returned to U.K. in inter-war years. And in
Canada 50% of industrial popn were unemployed for 4 years.
H.D.
I have accepted A.’s proposal; & support it. This subsidy won’t change
peoples’ minds, it will do no more than help those already
determined to go.
Want a thin trickle – it won’t be more – to cement Imperial relationships.
The nos. won’t be large: the broad ques. raised by H.M. & A.B. will not
arise.
J.J.L.
Supported this view.
286
R.S.C.
Nothg. shd. be done to make it easier for Aust. to attract our most skilled
industrial workers to start industies in competn with ours.
A.
I’m alive to that - & have warned Australia.
Memo approved.
[Enter Wilmot: Buchanan]
4.
Municipal Elections
P.M.
Amplified memo – gave reasons. Ministers have enough to do.
T.W.
Applies also to Co. Councils?
P.M.
Yes.
H.M.
Take a diff. view. Conservative Ministers have taken part – no settled
doctrine.
We can’t give too much time, but in princ. see not objtn.
a) They will be asked to help.
b) Some have a history, as 3 have in Ldn. I have already addressed
mtg. in Ldn. & promised to go to B’ham. Believe M/Supply has
sent a message wh. has bn printed on election address.
P.M.
No diffy. re messages. Point = Ministries shdn’t spend time on it.
A.B.
Point for individual Ministers. – depends on relationship between a
Minister & L.A.’s.
R.S.C.
Peccavi – in Bristol: mtgs. addressed.
V. awkward to abstain if one is in ones own constituency at the material
time.
J.W.
I haven’t bn to constituency since Election - & now have said I’ll come
down to you durg. municipal elections.
H.D.
Let’s have the rule: but let Ministers deeply commd already carry out their
obligns.
P.M.
What we must avoid is havg. all Ministers spkg, in a single week all over
the country.
Agreed: Let the Rule stand, subject to Ministers using a discretion.
5.
H.M.
Justices of the Peace
Don’t agree: a) Labour won’t get enough if it isn’t political.
b) If there is a rprt. will be asked to legislate.
287
J.
This = misconception. I want this in order to get more Labour J.P.’s. I
want someone to tell me what is going wrong
Remedy = revise Advisory Cttee & get
Adjourned: I. is consult with L.P.
Or ? J. authd to go fwd. if he satisfies L.P.
6.
National Health Service: Hospitals
A.B
No real diffy. in getting agreement with Scotland: for I don’t intend to
leave the teaching hospitals as voluntary hospitals in old sense of
term.
No other way of getting proper hospital service. – or effic. nursing service.
Can’t entrust to l.a.’s because (even in London) the l.a. areas are not
natural hospital areas. Resistance of vol. hosp. is being entrusted to
l.a.’s couldn’t be overcome.
W. paper has to resort to Joint Bds., wh. is worst form of l.a. authy.
Argument: equal service for equal contributions.
Vol. hospital system has broken down. Success of E.M.S. due largely to
its brkg. down local boundaries.
Revenue: 100% in some cases will come fr. rate & State funds: in other
cases 60% upwrds.
Rushing out endowments, less than 8% will be upd by vol. contribns.
Protection v. centralisation?
My conversn with drs. had me to suppose tht. this will be welcomed by
them & will reduce their opposn to rest of scheme.
A.
In principle, I support this:
Careful prepn before announcement. made - propaganda too.
Agree: regional organisation is required : diff. from the system wh.
has grown up fortuitously. And this calls for national basis.
[Exit Cripps, Jowitt]
Big teaching hospitals – successful because given opporties to best men.
Can’t do this on basis of seniority. Wd. like to see what is proposed
on this before public statement made on hospitals.
Tremendous outcry is certain. But believe this is right, none the less.
A.G.
Vol. hospitals going down hill for some time = & this scheme will finally
kill them because so many outside Ldn. rely on vol. contrib..
schemes – which won’t go on when a Health Service Contn is
payable.
Diffy. gigantic task, will take years to compete, in face of strong oposn.
Protracted talks with l.a.’s. Vol. hospital will make it as hot as they
can for M/H.
G.A.I
Support from Ldn. experience.
a) Govrs. of Ldn eye hospital: gave it up because of govt. cadging
by doctors.
288
b) Since L.C.C. took over, stigma of “infirmary” now removed.
People prefer to go there than eg. to Guy’s where the Almoner
conducts Means Test.
H.D.
Substantial financial adjustments wd. be reqd? – in block grant. Reserve
that to prime l.a. shd. be deprived of a sum equivalent to what they
wd. otherwise hve to meet themselves.
Adjourn discussion.
7.
Housing
Cabinet – Monday
289
22nd October 1945
C.M. 44 (45)
1.
The Budget
2.
Women’s Land Army: Release Scheme
W.L.A. entitled to willing release therefore recruited only for duration.
Thought unwise a) during harvest b) therefore cd. be re-directed to agr.
Now think it essential to bring in a scheme of willing release. Graded DecMarch acc. to length of service. Appeal to sign on again for a year – with
offer of one week’s holiday for 2 years + 3 days for each extra year.
Approved.
290
C.M. 45(45)
23rd October, 1945
1.
Food for Europe
B.S.
I’ve said my 1st duty = maintain rations at home.
Motion deals with transport coal etc., - food only incidental.
Figures of supplies of food sent, or commn to send: 1.110.000 t. from
stocks by end ’45.
Calory levels – being maintained in practice save in Germany – where
only 1300/1400 calories.
Vitamin C: supplies in Switz. wh. cd. be bought for Francs. If Fr. have
shd. have to replace at cost of dollars.
Wheat for Germany: shd. be explored. First: reduce stocks below W.
Agricult. minimum: Second, U.S. to use maize rice wheat for feeding
stuffs.
250.000+ programmed for G – 112.000 for B. Zone. Trying to procure.
But Canada unwilling to supply: may have to buy from U.S. Other
diffies: Wavell wants 2 m tons/wheat if he can’t get rice.
Possible concession para 10(b). 2m of these Arctic packs. Others are in
Pacific & wd. have to be brought back.
The dried fruits are L. Lease.
Potatoes: 50.000 tons on assumption of favourable harvest.
Total 10(b) & 7lbs per head for popn of B. homes of G & Austria.
From stocks – cd. not be repeated.
Para 10(a). Late Govt. opposed to parcels. Hope we shall be. too. But a
scheme for giving up points goods (not points) & collectg. thro’ a
voluntary organisation wd. be practicable; and I wd. ship it.
J.J.L.
V. complicated ques: can’t be settled at short notice.
Any cut in wheat supply to Europe wd. have bad effect.
We want time to discuss with C. Commn
P.M.
We aren’t dealing with Wheat today.
A.B.
Cttee. on Epidemics: we think 1500 cal. already dangerous. will it be
reduced if this wheat can’t be sent!
B.S.
Yes.
A.B.
What calory value from para 10(b)?
B.S.
Cdn’t say.
Enquiries procdg: hope to be able to submit better proposals on wheat
later.
P.L.
Cdn’t we send more potatoes?
B.S.
Must be conservative. Need for feed for own animals.
291
A.
Maize: surplus in Argentine, being used for fuel. S. Afr. cd. supply coal,
but can’t agree on price. Wd. make gt. diffce if this maize cd.. be
made available for food – dollar diffy.
P.M.
Point for debate: deficiency in Germany & Austria, B. Zone. What are we
going to say. Argument in memo: world shortage save.
a) maize in Argentina
b) U.S. use of wheat for cattle.
Are you going to bring that out in debate?
L.P.
Draw attention to terms of Motion.
a) Can’t generalise re Europe. Some countries are better off in some
things than U.K. The House must be informed of facts.
b) Politics v. awkward. Contents of packs in 10(b) – many people
here wd. like those foods. But posn will deteriorate as winter
goes on; & pressure will increase.
c) Calory. 1500 not enough to work on.
d) Motion: drafting is awkward: can’t easily accept as it stands.
First ques.: shd. U.K. try to act uni-laterally or seek international action.
Hynd.
1550 cal. is not accepted by Robertson as minimum in present condns in G.
2000 cal. = the mark to prevent serious trouble in G. & A.
These packs contain little calory value.
Fish coming in, but can’t be distributed.
Our people say - diffies esp. fr. B. troops giving their rations to children
who are prof. collectors for the black market.
Addl. 7lbs p. head won’t take them thro’ winter.
Motion refers to adl. coal fr. Ruhr. This is crucial, & can’t be secured
w’out more food.
Two ques. on Motion:
a) Public opinion. Resolution. Tense feeling in H/C even on
Stokes’ adjournment. Comparison wrong – with rations in U.K.
etc. where other food available. Need for proper standard of
comparison.
b) Govt. shd. have clear, long-term policy on this ques.
E.B.
I am speaking.
Motion as a whole addressed to R. policy. Food = incidental. The guts of
this is first part. Esp. if people like Stanley have put their names to
it.
What shall be my line? In A.P.W. days, we said Europe can’t be fed
unless treated as a whole. Think that must be declared – with implicn
tht. any Govt. acting to contrary is perpetuatg. these condns. At
C.F.M. tried to ascertain what surpluses fr. Romania & Bulgaria
(natural larder for S.E. Europe incldg. Vienna). No satisfy. answer:
they now have deficiency because R. policy there. Hungary too:
Treaty ties 50% of prodn to Russia, if it goes through. That is why
292
I’ve had to protest. All these policies are for benefit of Russia wh. in
normal times is surplus country.
Para.(3) of ‘Motion’. R. have declined to co-operate in work of E.E.
Council.
Also waterways, wh. cd. have bn condn to this. Shd. like to say what U.S.
offered at C.F.M. & refer to R. attitude.
Two views in H/C.
a) go carefully & mend threads b) Come out with truth. This motion
suggests want to force it out.
A.B.
We shdn’t cloak the facts. People shd. know – and shd. appreciate
consequences of a policy wh. perpetuates war after its over.
Epidemics – takg. our occupying troops & pos. spreading to U.K.
Mistake for E.B. to speak. Foreign policy significance. Better keep it
factual. Avoid dipl. significance attachg. to what is said. Then we
can talk plainly about effect on R. policy.
Agree with H.M. Shldn’t try to solve unilaterally. We shd. approach R &
U.S. & seek for concerted action.
P.M.
That implies we haven’t done so already.
E.B.
Wd. be misunderstood if I didn’t speak to (1).
E.W.
Don’t be too sentimental.
a) Epidemics. Good precautionary services at work. Not a great
risk unless we have something new.
A.B.
Our experts take a v. serious view – if calorific standard is reduced.
E.W.
E.Sh.
b) Talking in terms of calories p. head over whole popn ignores fact
that many people in G. are doing quite well – e.g. farmers &
untouched towns. Real problem = children in town. Recommend
concentrate our efforts entirely on them. Old people will die
anyhow.
Let’s get some points clear.
a) Can’t settle uni-laterally. If that’s agreed, who but E.B. cd.
speak. And somethg. must be said about R. policy of forcing
people in W. Zones.
b) Feeding wheat to cattle in U.S. ought to be brought out.
c) Wheat policy internationally – can be settled later. What our
approach shd. be.
d) Coal. Production in Ruhr is improving – we are doing all we can
eg. by sending out techn. experts. Don’t give G. miners more
food – because B. miners cd. do with it.
e) Argentine maize. “If fuel export needed to extract it, we may
have to do it. But tell B. public.
293
f) Don’t believe B. people wd. react v. contents of parcels if facts re
W. Germany known.
E.B.
Argentine. Trouble is with U.S. & it’s political.
Tried in Arg. to get U.S. to give us a truce with Argentine while we get
food out. Still worth an effort to get sensible U.S. attitude twds.
Argentina.
Believe they might send us food on credit., in spite of large sterling
balances.
Actions of U.S. re L.L. makes it easier to deal with such countries.
Will take it up again.
Diffy. over U.N.R.R.A. – not hopeful of getting 1% from U.S. $4.500.000
Congress may adjourn w’out dealing with this until Jan. And it be
broke by then.
Mustn’t fall betwn. 2 stools. We’ve undertaken to go to the 1%.
A.V.A.
Cause & failure of exporting countries to come fwd. Wd. it be well for
M/F. to go out to U.S. & Argentina.
B.S.
At least get C.F.B. to approach U.S. re feeding to cattle.
P.M.
Points for speech –
a) We’ve bn. attackg. G. for 6 years. Absurd to expect good condns at
once. Warned G. of consequences of fighting on.
b) We can’t deal with this alone not matter for unilateral B. action.. We
can say what food we’ve sent. [And promise 10(b) – for “save the
children”. Without detailing what kinds of food]
c) Russian policy. Extruding people into our & U.S. Zones.
d) Additional supplies – must be from exporting countries, not from us.
Quantities depend on U.S. policy re cattle & U.S. attitude twds.
Argentina.
E.B.
Shd. consider speech on these lines.
Debate may run to food at end. ; And M/F. can wind up and add [].
J.
Don’t discard existing machinery C.F.B. in favour of Supreme Ec. Council
& failure of similar body at end/last war because lack of executive
power.
C.E.
Give it to children, thro’ school meals, & only those who need it – and it
will be nearly 2lbs a week thro’ the winter.
P.M.
Not into the pool: specl. scheme thro’ our machinery.
P.M.
Para. 10(a) Not to friends.
R.S.C.
Restrict it to supply thro’ the “save the Children” scheme.
P.M.
Importing enough only to feed own people. If someone uses less points,
available for others. Danger of pressure to sacrifice.
294
On the whole I’m against 10 (a)
R.S.C.
Some outlet for altruism wd. be useful. Cd. you let people contribute
money against 10 (b) goods. Will ease sense of frustration.
P.L.
Agree with R.S.C. 10(a) wd, do.
B.S.
Half our popn have got some hoarded food. If they wd. give that up, it wd.
help.
P.M.
Discuss – as in 10(a) – with sponsors. Might promise that.
Reconsider 10 (a) – see if you can bring in the Save the Children Fund.
E.B.
Give it time.: & if you do it, do it quietly.
Let M/F. discuss with P.M.
2.
Promises of War: Return of White Prisoners to Germany
E.B.
Summard memo.
T.W.
No objn so long as we get a corresponding no. here in return.
J.J.L.
Will do our best – transport limitns.
A.B.
Same point., esp. M/East. prs.
E.B.
Start with them in U.K.
J.J.L.
Diffy. = inward, clashing with leave & demobiln.
R.S.C.
Political white prs. who wd. be invaluable in re starting democr. in G. &
A.
E.B.
Am considering that: let’s deal with it separately.
Approved.
3.
Supply of Equipment to Spain
E.B.
Different fr. policy twds. Argentina: but we must take a stiffer line with
Spain.
Danger that U.S. will slip in.
A.
Civil aircraft – if none on other side – cd. be useful for suppression of
insurgents.
R.S.C.
Applies to cars also.
A.
A bit different – we are holding down Germany with an air force only.
295
E.B.
If it’s under licence you can discriminate.
On trainer aircraft will try to get agreement with U.S. : but trouble is they
leave commerce to follow separate course.
A.
Wd. be satisfied if B.O.T. will bear my point in mind.
A.V.A.
I have 2 points wh. I can discuss with B/T.
Approved.
296
26th October 1945
CM 46 (45)
1.
P.M.
Parliament
All members of Cabinet to vote at 9.45 Monday – first socialist vote, on
Bank Bill.
2.
Civil Aviation
A.
Party Group – 3 points
a) Commonwealth Corpn. Not clear they knew how far this gone
already – we have got as far as we can now: conference only last
year: no use askg. Canada yet to reconsider.
b) Internatl Confce. Wd. lead only to delay & trouble.
c)Private Capital. We thought tht. if any private capital to be
allowed our method wd. be preferable to allowg. private cos. to run
feeder lines, wh. might take cream off internal traffic. Real ques. =
any private capital at all? Considered 3 times & reluctantly
convinced it is desirable, but draw attenn to safeguards, in para. 7 of
memo.
V. strict limits – may even frighten cos. away.
Prestwick, Statement as on p.4.
A.W.
Para (c) Better stop at “airports”. Looks exclusive. i.e. as tho’ it excludes
Atlantic.
R.S.C.
Or “and foreign countries” vice “and the Continent”
P.M.
“Overseas Countries” - Agreed
H.M.
Any provision excluding subsidies?
A.
That remains an open question.
R.S.C.
As private holding is now limited, it is so unattractive that it wd. be better
to go for straight natn. No equity: no chance of capital accretions
(because taking over at par). Go the whole hog & save trouble with
own Party.
H.D.
Agreed. Some talk with Party group – they say this is not the Party policy
and they are reliable people. History = compromise with Swinton. If
there are able men in railways & shipping cos. let Minister bring
them into nationalised service.
Private money not justified on merits & will cause diffies with reliable
people in the Party.
W.
Thought my proposals best designed to get civil aviation started as quickly
as possible. Much planning done along these lines.
297
A.B.
In making concessions to Party views we are in danger of falling between
2 stools.
Priv. enterprise w’out any of the merits of that. These will be inert
shareholders in a State concern.
E.Sh
No ques. of principle – all agree natn is better method. Real ques. is, if we
go for natn, what will it delay & for how long.
A.B.
Alternatives: political decision or examn qua practical operation.
Wd. have bn, better if pol. decision had come at beginning not now at end.
Thought Cab. admitted last time princ. of admittg. private capital.
Ques = machinery inc. facilities wh. shipping cos. can use for civil
aviation. I thght. we cd. make better use of those if the cos. had a
financial interest.
P.M.
What are these services wh. can’t be brought in unless cos. given share in
management.
Wd. there be delay in negotiating for use of these services w’out
admittg. to shares.
W.
Cttee agreed surface cos. has services to render at outset.
If they are to be excluded, I shd. have to examine where I cd. get these
services or how long it wd. take to make them on State basis.
R.S.C.
Negotiations anyhow. And will they come in on these terms?
W.
Indicatns tht. they wd. be made to come in, even on minority holdings.
E.Sh.
They aren’t attracted by money considn but because of co-ordinn with
shipping.
E.B.
I agreed to this scheme.
a) Comonwlth. w’in one legal system. Stood out for natn in that sphere.
But U.S. were for pr. enterprise everywhere. And in S. America you will
be up against U.S. Cd. a State company, stand up to that.
R.S.C. said then you can’t stop shipping cos operating there.
All services in S. America in hands of shipping cos. Vast & expensive
duplicn to put in parallel services for State air service. Wd. be bad
Press for natn.
b) European. Gap left for internatl Europ. co. on public bases. But what
wd. be cost of creating services throughout Europe – w’out r/ways &
Cooks. The overheads in this business are v. large. Aviation cdn’t
carry this alone.
My attitude – create an organisn wh. will come eventually into publ. hands
when the rlways are natd.
c) Had to carry legn repealing Act giving rights from Sweden to Balkans.
Under Coalition this wd. have bn. difficult. No one wanted to buy
them out.
d) Developing quickly civil auth bldg. programme.
298
Need for speed. We are starved for air services. Crippling our foreign
policy.
Urgent need for these facilities in S. E. Europe.
Understand this plan ndn’t. require legn.
R.S.C.
Yes: some will be needed.
E.B.
Not if you embody in this scheme the existing powers of cos.
E.B.
You cd. begin anyway. A State Co. cdn’t start until legn is thro’.
The real point is cost of aviation co. carrying whole burden of tourist etc.,
services and the overheads.
Alternative: State ownership with power to lease to cos. for operation
Discussion adjourned.
[Enter
3.
N. Edwards
B. Smith]
Dockers Strike
N.E.
500 more out. Mtgs. y’day. – no sign of acceptance of Union view. More
mtgs. today & tomorrow. But unlikely tht. strike will end during
week-end.
M/W.T. asking for 17 more ships to be unloaded. We have agreed, as it in
ruling.
P.Q. by W.S.C. – asked to defer until Monday in case strike collapses.
E.B.
Have suggested reply on lines, no interference with machinery, but clear
tht. ships must be unloaded.
N.E.
Read draft answer.
E.B.
Don’t give the figures.
Say Govt. is not going to intervene.
Believe there is a vital or material change.
I wd. say This matter is under attentn…… Further discn . E.B. & NE
w’drew to
B.S.
15 food ships must go away at once or we will lose wheat.
A.Barnes
Two points in C.P. 248.
H.D.
Prefer mil. labour to dollar ships.
B.S.
Gap will come 6 wks. later because congestion in U.K.
H.M.
Can’t we give Ministers concerned authy to use mil. labour (after consultn
with E.B.) w’out coming to Cab. on each occasion.
E.B.
Brought in draft answer to P.Q. Approved.
299
E.Sh.
Pt. props. M/L won’t use mil. labour.
H.D.
Clear ruling tht. any Minister wanting mil. labour shd. have it.
E.B.
We shall have lots of indust. diffy. In Coalition Govt. we had small Cttee
dealing with these ques. Suggest P.M. appoints a Cttee for Wages
Policy & Strikes so tht. M/L. can have advice. Suggest M/L alone to
handle H/Commons.
Barnes.
O.K. So long as final decn is not with M/L alone.
J.J.L.
Want Cttee. Not easy to find the mil. labour. 17.000 now working & 300
more being thrown in. Must survey to see what more can be
provided.
P.M.
I will appoint a Cttee under H.D.
[Exit Ness Edwards]
2.
Civil Aviation (resumed)
A.
Cttee were influenced by the considns advanced by E.B. We were assured
that Co. cd. provide the facilities needed, quickly, - that they wd. come in.
You cd. go ahead w’out legn – tho’ you wd. need it later to exclude you
needn’t exclude now because no aircraft.
H.M.
Must have quick decision because promised statement in H/Lords.
a) Must have civil aviation aircraft quickly.
b) C. Av. Group are good & helpful. Wd. like to meet their views if we cd.
– tho’ not so much a matter of princ. as they think.
c) This shdn’t be run w’out regard to booking, etc., facilities. Each form
of transport must play its part w’out prejudicing the other. Waste if
each form carries own services for booking etc.
Wdn’t it be better to own whole of the stock – no profit in it – but then
appoint effective Cttee with air, r/ways, shipping.
Barnes.
They wdn’t come in on that basis.
Remember we have to keep shipping cos. from tying up with American
cos. Cdn’t W., Barnes, R.S.C. meet together & discuss.
R.S.C.
Time for decision now. I wd. accept H.M.’s alternative.
Imposs. posn for us: we have to argue v. natn because must have these
people in.
Then they will say “on our terms”.
W.
If you accepted Cttee’s recommn I cd. get agreemt. with them on essentials
before statement in H/L on 1/11.
H.D.
Say on Thursday we have decided must be owned 100%: but go on to say
we attach importce to agencies etc., & are going to discuss with them
300
how they can co-operate. There is no money in it for them: but they
are vitally concerned.
T.W.
You cdn’t get (or want) more control than this memo. offers.
A.V.A.
Mayn’t be much in the money. But psycholog. point = shipping cos. are
frightened of losing their position : some interest will satisfy them.
P.M.
Let the stock be publicly owned.
E.Sh.
“Co-operation” isn’t enough. Cdn’t we also say “use as agents”.
H.D.
Shorter the statement, the better.
Agreed: in form suggested by H.M.
4.
Ceylon Constitution.
A.G.
Need for early statement. Movement for Dom. Status – too early & in any
case not before India & Burma.
We recommend therefore adoption of Southern Rpt plus decision tht. after
6 years we take initiative in further review.
G.H.
Two general elections in further 6 years.
R.S.C.
New inquiry will follow 2nd Genl. Election & tht. wd. be issue at Election.
Wd it not be better to fix the period at 5 years vice 6.
A.V.A.
I thought period shd. be longer.
P.M.
Diffy. of asking people to work interim constitn under fixed time period.
Passage on this in Simon Rpt. on India.
G.H.
Para. 10 second par. of statement.
P.M.
This was said on Montague-Chelmsford proposals & completely falsified
in the event.
A.G.
There’ll be continuing agitation anyway.
G.H.
Ceylon has in mind promises to India & Burma.
Won’t such a promise this Constn won’t be accepted.
P.M.
And with it, it won’t be worked.
Did you examine the practical experience in India?
G.H.
You can’t refuse to Ceylon the sort of thing you give to India.
P.M.
No reason to promise in 6 years.
301
Development - of constitutional practice: not by steps at stated period.
Latter is contrary to all our experience.
Suggest para. 10 be reconsidered, in light of Simon Rprt. & practical
experience in India & elsewhere.
Our objection is Dom. status, but can’t be achieved except by gradual
practical evolution. Put if that way round.
R.S.C.
Para 10 can be made more attractive on these lines.
As it stands first part is a slap in the face. Make is simply tht. this is first
stage in progress twds. Dom. status.
A.G., G.H., R.S.C. to meet with P.M. on re draft of para. 10.
A.V.A.
Bear in mind defence & foreign policy.
R.S.C.
Last sentence of statement. Why include it at all? – if not bound by it.
G.H.
Not so easy. 1943 decln asked Ministers to work out constitn. Because
they didn’t invite minorities we thght. shd. have 3/4 vote. Then after
consultn Ministers w’drew their constitn. So we weren’t bound. Posn
therefore is that we pay regard to majority view tho’ not bound by
specific figure.
But I don’t mind because Cab. is now asking me to do what I originally
asked!
G.H. to reconsider para. 12.
P.L.
Want to record views tht. India don’t like this Rpt.
G.H.
Ceylon & India wd. have reached agreement, had it not bn for the war.
There is real possibility of agreement.
Approved: subject to points noted above on paras. 10 & 12.
302
30th October, 1945
C.M. 47 (45)
1.
Dodecanese
E.B.
C.F.M. agreed cede to Greece. Propose hand over adminn. Timing, when
to do it. Want authority to do it at right moment.
C.A.S.
No objn by C.O.S.
A.B.
On change of Govt.?
E.B.
Probably.
Agreed.
2.
P.L.
[Exeunt C.O.S.]
Political Position in Burma
Govr. confronted with demand that u. shd. have majority on Council.
Govr. cdn’t accede to that. One or two people on both lists have
agreed to come on to Council.
Decided in principle by B. Cttee: but thght. shd. be brought to notice of
Cabinet.
Approved.
3.
Parliament
H.M.
Opp whips have suggested H/C. shd. adjourn after to-days Motion of
congratn carried. Think Parlt. shd. go on with its work – on balance,
in spite of sentiment.
A.
Precedents against adjournment, in both Houses.
H.M.
M/C.A. statement in H/L. Thursday on Debate. Corresp. statement in H/C.
prob. right.
Demand for debate will follow – think must concede that. On a Motion
and a White Paper.
P.M.
Adjournment on Atom Bomb. Not suitable subject for adjournment.
Don’t want to speak.
A.G.
P.M. shdn’t speak. Member (Blackburn) doesn’t expect it. If P.M. states
after Ques. he is going to U.S., member might abandon idea. L.P. to
speak on motion.
S.
No intention of compromising on 5 yrs duration of Supplies Services Bill?
To-day in H/L.
Agreed – none
303
[Enter M/F., M/W.T. and
Hynd]
4.
Europe: Food Supplies
B.S.
Second 112.5000 t. to go: instn given this a.m. in view of Monty’s latest
wire. 14 wks. supply in U.K. stocks.
Feeding to cattle in U.S. – no reply for 3 wks. tho’ prospect favourable
then.
Hence sent the 112.000 t. as one month’s supply.
Further supply bound up with
a)feeding to cattle
b)stocks minimum in exporting countries!
Next problem: supply to March: Monty’s bid raised from 5 to 8.00,000 t.
H.M.
600.000 t. in 1939. Now 1.700.000 t. And will be there at end /45.
G. & A. needs 225.000 to end ’45. Not therefore easy to be too rigid.
E.Sh.
Adverse effects on coal prodn in Ruhr. if M/F original proposal stood.
J.B.H.
Original demand 225.000 t. on 1500 cal. Ration.
Posn deteriorated. Thought only 112.500 now released.
Want 275.000 at once to get up workg. stocks. Plus 132.000 this & every
succeeding month. Otherwise rations will drop by 40% of 1550 cal.
Essential therefore not to wait for agreement with other countries.
Ask for urgent examn & taking risks on our own stocks.
H.M.
That is asking too much.
R.S.C.
Monty’s telegrams are v. grave. We can’t turn him down on guess-work.
We shd. send someone out to check the needs.
B.S.
225.000
I am prep to meet original demand for ½ /m tons by end/December.
E.B.
Then case must be made out for any increase if necessary.
P.M.
Let 225.000 go fwd: and L.P. Cttee consider the position & Frame
recommns
x J.B.H. to investigate & submit recommns to L.P. Cttee.
E.B.
L.P. Cttee shd. decide whtr addl. demand to increase or to make good short
fall before the agreed estimate fixed.
d
Agreed at x/.
[Exeunt M/W/T. & R.B.H. Cadogan]
5.
T.W.
Food Policy
On p.2 “producer” vice “farmer” to cover fish.
304
Accepted.
A.
Thought this was settled - & said so in H/Lds. the other day. Settled
Labour policy. But this statement doesn’t say M/F. will be consld
H.M.
Ques. of Dpl. demarcation not yet settled. If we say it goes on, we may be
asked supplementaries you can’t yet answer.
P.M.
Someone will ask. You can’t dodge it. You can say you are sorting out
consequentials.
A.B.
Why is it necessary to say this? M/F. = shortage expedient. After
shortages, proper dept. for health policy is probably not M/Food. All
that is necessary now is to say M/F. will be required for a long time
yet.
T.W.
Our policy on this is fixed.
E.B.
P.2. 3rd para. Add some reference to equitable distribution on removal of
controls.
Pre-war diffy. was not scarcity but distribution.
P.M.
Covered by opening words of next para.
A.G.
This is important, dicn of policy can’t have it dragged out on
supplementary. Every reason to put it in the body of the statement.
R.S.C.
Add “For this purpose M/F. will be consld” at end of first para.
Agreed.
H.M.
Omit last para.
Agreed: subject to this addition.
[Enter P.M.G.
Exit M/Food]
6.
Empire Communications
H.D.
As in memo.
H.M.
Points of detail, e.g. basis of compensation, will need considn.
H.D.
Yes: as soon as decn of principle taken conversn can go ahead.
H.M.
Defence pt/view.
H.D.
C.O.S. agree.
A.
Will raise small point fr. Canada with H.D.
Agreed
305
[Enter S.G. Exit P.M.G.]
7.
Parliamentary Procedure
H.M.
As in memo. Want some liberty of action - wdn’t mind differing from
Cttee on some point.
S.
Rpt. Stage of F. Resn. Can keep debate going if you haven’t a majority.
H.M.
Askg. Cttee to proceed with fin. procedure – ask them to review this with
the ques. as whole - Agreed,
Debate on Clause stand part. Not prs. worth pressing.
A.G.
Addl. L.O. Against that. But para. 3 a) & b) shd. be adopted.
S.G.
Think b) wd. be convenient.
May be necessary to modify tradition that court work of L.O. shd. take
precedence over pol. work.
Agreed – accept a) and b). L.O.’s reduce their court work.
Approved: subject to points noted above.
8.
Circulation of Memoranda Prepared For Parliamentary Labour Party
H.M.
Wd. like an understandg. that Ministers shd. bring such memoranda to
notice of Cabinet or Cab. Cttee. – when there may be a diffce btwn.
Ministers & a group of back-benchers.
E.B.
Better to incorporate it in Minister’s own memo.
P.M.
Agreed – more constitutional.
Agreed: on this basis.
9.
E.W.
Statement by Minister of Education
Explained how invited to speak at revolutionary club. Spoke on Trade
Unionism.
Asked them to consider consequences of strikes – “might even have bread
rationing”. Didn’t know Press there – except for one man. He sent
in the stuff - & Press blew it up.
Apologised.
10.
G.I.
Dockers’ Strike
No change this a.m. But believe strikers are now seeking a way out.
Left M.P.’s are askg. Govt. to intervene. Have promised mtg. w’in 24 hrs.
of their return to work. Similar approach from So’ton.
Pr. Notice Ques to-day – same line, non aggressively. Will repreat “offer”.
Must stand on posn that they must return to work first.
306
T.W.
Any informtn re sums of money being recd by unofficial strike leaders?
G.I.
No official information of this.
C.E.
My offrs. have discovered no evidence of anything “political” in this
strike, or any “hidden hand”,
G.I.
Grimsby Ballot 50/50. 358 to 360 : verdict against return to work.
E.Sh.
Cd. you promise that negotns after ths. mtg. wd. be completed in
reasonable time? Men may feel machinery is slow.
G.I.
Have guarantee fr. both sides to meet w’in 24 hrs. And I will say we will
watch the posn. Cd. add tht. we will impress on them need for
avoiding delay, - if desired.
E.B.
This is the fastest Union machinery there is. Want to protect the Union.
Deakin is taking v. courageous line - & will prob. lose his job. It’s a
straight fight: let him carry it through. Labour Party must not
intervene.
M/L. must not promise quick results fr. negotiations – look at diffy. of the
issues to be negotiated & the interests against decasualisation.
This is first crisis over change down to peace.
A.B.
Don’t accept as generalisation that members of Govt. shd. stand wholly
aside.
Unoffl. strikes sometimes caused by incompetence of Union
Officials.
Must I do nothing, if blders strike!
P.M.
M/L. is i/c. Ministers can help him if he wants their help: but only then.
E.Sh.
Wd. not be inconsistent with E.B.’s view to indicate some hope of speed in
negotns.
307
1st November, 1945
C.M. 48 (45)
1.
U.S. Bases in Iceland
E.B.
U.S. gone ahead in spite of our views. Iceland Govt. pressed for expn of
our views. We have taken line in para. 3, But diffies if R. make
counter-claim re Bornholm or Spitzbergen. Hence prefer para. 4.
P.M.
Better to stick to line that all these matters must wait for U.N.O.
A.V.A.
Is there anything in Art. 43 to prevent bi-lateral arrangements.
Also don’t exclude our own bi-lat arrangements with Doms.
E.B.
Agree bilateral not excluded. But unwise to do it now, when U.N.O.
coming in. Agree don’t want to submit our agreements (existing)
with e.g. Iraq.
R.S.C.
Bias in favour of doing all these things thro’ U.N.O.
A.B.
Inconsistency between this attitude & para. 3. That para. condones U.S.
action.
E.B.
Remember U.S. forces are there: reasonable for them to ask: but assume
eventual U.N.O. arrangement where they are members of U.N.O.
Agreed: as in para. 4.
[Exit Cadogan
Enter Collick]
2.
Billeting of German Prisoners on Farms.
Collick
M/Ag. agree with this proposal.
C.E.
H.O. intd qua public order. G. shdn’t be given status of collaborators, &
Police shd. be consulted in advance.
G.I.
Agree: same security arrangements.
Agreed
3.
Exit Collick]
Civil Defence: Future Organisation
C.E.
L.T. agrees.
H.D.
Avoid premature commitment to organisation involving expenditure.
Agreed.
[Enter G.T.]
308
4.
Victory Celebrations
C.E.
Regard premature reports in Press.
E.Sh.
Loss of coal etc., from V. Days. Does this mean loss of another working
day? Any need for further celebrations?
P.M.
May be next summer: not this winter.
A.B.
Why not wait for Peace Treaty?
H.M.
We haven’t had procession thro’ London of Forces.
Have it on a Sunday, if you like.
A.
Affects Doms. Wd. like to be associated with official cttees.
G.H.
Ditto. for Colonies. Want out troops in the parade.
S.
Repn of Allied Forces.
G.T.
M/W shd. be represented.
General View: Not before the spring.
Agreed:
P.M. to appoint Cttee.
5.
Newfoundland
A.
Outlined proposals in memo.
(i) cf para. 3 of statement: expert to go out first, for much depends on their
solvency. Their present surpluses are due to war circs. Full facts
must be put before the Convention. Hope Ty. reprve will go out too.
Movement twds. Canada. N. realising they are less well off than C.
maritime provinces. M. King wd. be favourable: but no sugn of this
shd. come fr. Canada or U.K.
This + another reason for getting facts before the Convention.
Statement in Parl. Can’t avoid length – need to trace the history.
Candidates to be reqd to reside in constituency. Special need to avoid
carpet. baggers.
P.M.
Merchants running the island – their interest to avoid Canadian
connection. Wonder wtr geograph. basis is best for constituencies.
Fear the merchants will still control it. Wd. it be possible to compose
it by repres of industries, workers etc., - an entirely unorthodox
Soviet method. Repn by occupation.
A.B.
Party trouble. Not for Imperial Parlt. alone. Cd. the report be considered
by a Dom. Conference. All Doms. concerned under St. of
Westminster on a ques. of Dom. losing its status.
309
H.D.
What we want to work for is union with Canada. Do nothing to delay that.
From Ty. angle that is most desirable. £17m. sterling debt: wd. hope
to get Canada to take that over.
E.Sh.
First ques. a) resuscitating self Govt. in N. Second b) absorption into
Canada.
Get on with a). But b) raises wider issues. S. Africa e.g. wanted to
annex territory & we resisted it. We shd. have more diffy. with S.A.
if we let Canada absorb N.
Shd. also look at this qua economic expansion.
What will happen to Canada – U.S. economic penetration. Also U.K.
capitalists seeking openings for exploitn in Canada.
From last Parl. Commn, not sure we cdn’t develop N. economically on
independent basis.
For these reasons reserve my opinion on b).
A.
Cd. be no ques. of annexation.. Cd. happen only on N’s request.
On economic independence – v. little prospect as things are.
Canada’s Provincial Finances are being so re-arranged tht. maritime
provinces wd. have some surplus wh. wd. bring advantages to N.
On a) will re-consider basis for Convention – on lines of P.M.’s
suggestion.
E.B.
Try a mixture between geograph. and industrial repn.
A.
Will consider A.B.’s suggn re Imperial consn – tho’ unlikely tht. other
Doms. wd. wish to come in on ques. specially affecting one (i.e. Canada).
J.J.L.
Counselled caution re merger with Canada. Labrador wd. have to come in
to the bargain.
P.M.
That is all a long way off.
H.M.
On Parly statement : always provokes demand for debate. This is much
too long.
A.
Will try to shorten.
P.M.
And bring it up again.
Agreed: General approval of policy: consider suggns made & shorten
statement: bring up again.
6.
H.M.
Labour Controls
First ques.: have Labour controls a part to play in economic plan for
transition.
{Warning re bldg. Unemplt. of bldg. labour for lack of materials etc.
in ‘46
{ Risk of breach of faith with bldg. Unions.
310
That = only one example of diffies arising all round.
Cd. explain to public tht. all will suffer if labour is not distributed acc. to
national need.
We have conducted much publicity on economic controls generally, but
none on labour controls. General attitude – assumes time for
freedom has arrived. M/L. feel unable to enforce, by prosecution.
T.U.C. has pressed for relaxation.
Face the position that other controls can’t alone secure priorities.
First ques. therefore is can alternative (vi) run for 6-9 months.
If (v) is rejected, Cabinet shd. consider wtr refinements in (iii), (iv) can be
added to (ii).
Objn : singling out invidiously part. industries. Believe therefore real
choice is between (v) and (ii).
P.M.
First consider whether (v) is politically practicable.
G.I.
Don’t believe it is.
T.U.C. pressure came after mtg. of Joint Consult. Cttee – i.e. employers as
well as T.U.C. favour relaxation of this control. Direction for war
into better pay is different from dirn for peace into worse pay.
Can’t persecute men over 30 coming out of Forces. Can’t really ask for
impt. If we stuck to age 30 – military age – we cd. defend a strict
enforcement.
Easy to avoid control – med. cert.; or slacking & getting sacked;
advertisements (not for men between 18-50!). We can’t enforce.
People who wdn’t obey dirns to cotton are now volunteering to go
back when condns have improved.
Let us rather take over the difficult industries.
E.Sh.
Altern. (v) can’t be considered alone.
Recalled para 2(i) of memo. If v. large nos. returning from Forces, a sufft.
propn. wd go back to unpopular industries. Now, with only a trickle,
there is greater reluctance to go back: men are more “choosey”
Meanwhile , we can’t rely on that. Urge therefore wait until we can see
x/ what attitude is adopted when the large nos. begin.
M/L case = can’t enforce the existing controls. Answer; not as rigidly as
during the war. Even then not 100% enforcement, but you still
carried on.
Urge therefore alternative (i).
Mining. Wastage gross 74.000 p.a. rate – in a recent week 1,800 left and
800 came in. Can’t go on like that. Some control must be kept.
Suppose you lift control at age 30, miners will take advantage of that
so long as other jobs are open.
Recommend therefore as at x/ i.e. alternative (i).
J.J.L.
Favour alternative (v). You cdn’t do (ii) & retain control over bldg, agric.
& mining.
You wd. tie those workers to particular jobs, often with grt. hardship.
311
Para. 2(i). Challenged last phrase. My evidence is to contrary. In Oct.
140.000 passed – 150.000 expected to be reached – i.e. up to plan. In
last 11 days 73.000 came out.
P.M.
Leave that aside: for 2(i) really means somethg. greater even than
planned.
R.S.C.
Quite impracticable to adopt (v).
Agreed: (v) is impracticable.
A.B.
But situation then is v. serious w’out a real spate of demobilisation.
J.W.
While agreeing full enforcemt. impracticable, don’t think I can achieve my
production commitments with labour shortage as now. Big public
campaign shd therefore be started to get people to understand needs.
Raise standards in bad industries. Prevent luxury trades fr. enticing labour
from key industries. Explain need for labour controls. Then enforce
them.
Argue therefore for keeping controls in being & wait till you can
enforce them.
B.S.
Answer = a proper wages policy. Direction to lowest paid industry won’t
work.
A.B.
Urge: keep controls in being until you can enforce them. Large nos. do
accept direction. Don’t do anything to undermine their sense of
discipline.
If you aren’t going to distribute man power plan, you can’t allow wages to
determine the distribution so long as wage rates are independently
fixed.
During war wages in mining didn’t keep step with wages in R.O.F.’s
P.M.
You wd. have also to keep wages down in luxury trades.
H.D.
Have promised to peg c/living a year. I cdn’t agree to “wages policy”
involving immediate increases. Anti-inflation measures wd. be
defeated.
Diff. to depress wages in luxury trades. Need for greater caution in
providing incentives thro’ wages in next 12 months.
Consider this as short-term problem. Hold on to substance of controls –
bother the law – keep anything that helps. Favour something
between (i) and (v).
G.A.I.
Not whole field under review. ? subject to E.W.O.
Even if we decide to defer decision, that shd. be clearly announced.
G.B.
Let not H.D. press his point too far. In bldg. real shortage = labour. And
need is for higher rate for him. Talking of subsidies for rent &
312
housing units apply to craftsmen & labourers alike. Need for
adjustment of unskilled rates.
Favour (i) – tho’ not optimistic: sometimes think it ineffective.
R.S.C.
Distinguish short. term & long-term problems.
A.V.A.
Favour (i) – but because employers want to return to “freedom to
discipline” the workers.
Supply Ministers want to keep E.W. Orders on, to prevent industrial
trouble.
R.S.C.
Short-term = man up essential industries.
Long-term = how to match our economic plan.
Not ready yet with solution of long-term. The short-term must be
empirical.
Need to get early solution of long-term problem before people all think
there will be complete freedom.
Believe a wages policy will be necessary - in acc. with national priorities.
E.B.
a) State regulations of wages – a national minimum & you face mass
action to change them. All sections of workers v. Govt at once. That
is why we have h’to retained industrial machinery for wage fixation.
Otherwise, you face a General Strike.
b) What are the luxury industries with high wages?
R.S.C.
Luxury clothing as against utility.
E.B.
But the nos. in bespoke trade are negligible.
c) While general wage. fixing wd. be mistake, there is need for expediting
the working of the industrial wages machinery.
d)Were mining wages slow in relation to R.O.F.’s?
E.Sh.
Admit it’s now one of best paid industries. But it isn’t attractive.
E.B.
Remember every time we raised the wages the output fell.
e) Building. Piece-work reduced Macalpines cost by 20%. Output of
bricks 280 p.d. average., on return fr. employers: and on factories it rose to
1.000 p.d. when piece-work was introduced, on system of bonus after 480
p.d. Had hoped paymnt. by results cd. be applied to housing on straight
bldg. Diffy: repairs – I wd. have tried for a higher rate for “technical”
work as in engineering.
Believe you cd. build after dark by artificial light.
[Exit: E.W.]
On c) Wages Council Bill – machinery too slow.
Urge Govt. to be v. careful re wages policy. Suggd Cttee on this because
M/L. can help industry by giving guidance in advance. on wages
313
movements. Let them know how far they can go. W’out Cttee you
have to brk. off & go to Ty. – then delay.
Controls – what about the employer. Dirn to work for a man’s profit is too
difficult.
What do we regard as State emergency work. Define that. Announce it.
Then publicity for it. In war there was power to force employer to
accept a worker & to keep a novice in for 6 wks. before sacking him.
What is longest length of run? M/S tells me 3 months. You can’t get men
to settle down for such a period. What you want is through runs for
18-24 months. No controls will fill that need.
On foundries etc, let us put the amenities in. Reduce the minimum no.
prescribed by the Order.
Need is for vigorous adminn.
Don’t announce yet any decn to relax. Build up the positive side, until you
can enforce the compulsion.
Don’t favour division at 30: will cause trouble.
Don’t believe you can distinguish between trades, as in (iii) and (iv).
Lodging allowce might be re-considered, to improve mobility.
P.M.
General view: no change at present. L.P. Cttee to consider suggns made in
discussion.
7.
Parliament. Debate on Foreign Affairs
H.M.
Deal with W.S.C. as between P.M., E.B. & W.W. w’out reference to me as
Leader.
P.M.
Didn’t know Leader hadn’t been consulted. W.S.C. pressed for 2 days.
H.M.
How do we announce it? W.S.C. suggests confirm Debate to Truman’s 12
points.
I wanted H/C. to know this was W.S.C.’s suggn but ask that this be
observed.
Whip’s Office prefer a form which doesn’t mention W.S.C.
A.B.
Those points are so wide that Speaker cdn’t rule anything out.
P.M.
Cd. only be an appeal to H/C
General View: mention wishes of W.S.C.
This means postponing Parly. Procedures for a week.
H.D.
Don’t want any discussions in H/C. re Washington talks.
314
6th November 1945.
C.M. 49 (45)
1.
Parliament. Debate on Foreign Affairs: 7th November
E.B.
Don’t want to follow W.S.C., who will open.
P.M.
Want to hear what H/C. as a whole will have to say.
H.M.
OK: but on next occasion E.B. shd. come in early.
E.B.
My main point – shall look at all in light of action by U.N.O.
[Exit Whitely]
2.
Prisoners of War. Repatn of Italians
E.B.
As in memo.
T.W.
Not just at this moment because completion of potato harvest
3.000 on 3/12 + 2.000 at mid. Dec. however accepted & already agreed.
M/W.T.
We can move them.
J.J.L.
No objn
Agreed: as modified.
E.B.
Consider: but not decide now: when Armistice terms raised, allow Italians
to stay on contract for wages, not as p.o.w.
[Enter N.B. & Hynd.]
Want this studied by Offl. Cttee – agreed.
M/L to take the lead.
[Exit Barnes]
3.
Refugees: Admission of Distressed Persons
C.E.
1.500/2.000. applns a week – estimated.
Can’t go beyond categories set out. Don’t expect thanks from advocates:
but wd. make some contn.
E.B.
On para. 7. will this announcement be postponed for U.S. prior agreement?
C.E.
No: suggest only getting them in afterwards.
E.B.
Wd. prefer, w’out makg. it a condn of our doing it, to ask them first. If we
act first, the’ll do nothing.
C.E.
I’m under gt. pressure in H/C. Can’t easily wait – beyond Thursday of
next week.
315
E.B.
Will do it at once – may get reply before then.
P.M.
Danger of getting too many aged by this means.
H.M.
Dynamite – other re-actions. Nervous of as high an age as 18/21. We took
more than U.S. before: they never expanded their quota. Danger of
wave of anti-semite feeling.
E.Sh.
How many likely to come under this? Prob. v. small.
Older people – no gt. objn because they will die off soon. More objn to
younger.
But, anyway, has U.K. ever suffered fr. admisn of refuges? Usually gained.
Not sure about H.M., & re-action. Look at counter re-action in
Hampstead.
On man-power, possibility we may be short.
C.E
Diffy because of congregating in colonies eg. Hampstead.
Maintenance: propose tht. relatives be asked to satisfy us on that in
advance.
= part answer on “old people” point.
E.B.
Need to spread these people. They are good on the land. Make it a condn
tht. some of young ones go on to the land. Let Dpts consider that.
x/ Don’t let all Jews go into “trade”. Replace man-power wh. agric. is
losing.
A.B.
Don’t be stampeded by D. Mail propaganda. Fact is large nos. have enterd
factories etc., in Midlands & N. Wales. No real analysis of what
these refugees are doing. Can’t allow continn of situation in wh.
children in G. camps & parents here.
Need for more labour here. Unwise to think in terms of unemployment.
H.D.
y/ Refugees who have establd industries, eg. in development areas. Tried
to get assurance on their continuance.
C.E.
That comes up on item 4.
R.S.C.
Shd. not prejudice our getting over tech. specialists.
C.E.
It won’t.
E.W.
They shd. go into T. Unions – so as not to become traders.
P.M.
Admit principles, but need for careful administration.
T.W.
Supported x/.
c) 18.000 Foreigners in RAF. They wd. be allowed to apply on
behalf of relatives.
[Exit Hynd]
316
4.
Naturalisation Policy
P.M.
a) Why 2 years to get it through? i.e. work off backlog.
Pressure for special facilities for Forces.
C.E.
a) is a ques. of staff. No enquiries made into their cases.
Nos. enlisted in Pioneers in lieu of interment. Many enlisted abroad &
never came here.
P.M.
Why not exclude these classes.
R.S.C.
Why not naturalise automatically all who served?
H.M.
(i) differentiatg. between transmigrates.
(ii) H.O. must be satisfied they will be good citizens. Black market by
aliens in war.
E.B.
Two years before demobiln complete. Many foreigners want to get natd
first.
Are you going to be satisfied what jobs they are going to do?
Armed Forces: treat service as residence.
P.M.
Why diff. to deal with 10 year residents? Character known.
Why not take only the good people from Armed Forces.
H.D.
Put higher the refugees at y/ in Min. 3. No case for holding those up.
C.E.
If a rpt certifies natn desirable in interests of U.K. those can be taken up
now.
H.D.
Many of my cases blocked hitherto.
E.Sh.
Object to method proposed in memo.
Principle shd. be: subject to residence, good character. That rules our the
bad hats anyhow. Establmt of good character = matter of adminn.
Why therefore exclude persons of good character who haven’t
applied.
C.E.
6.500 outstanding. b) a no. of people haven’t applied because know it
wdn’t go,
Don’t want to be unjust to those who have reasonably w’held their applns.
Don’t want to bring y/ into this scheme: they might be worse off.
Will consider means of increasing of the flow, provided back-log is
worked off.
Will consider what Cab. has said re Service cases.
P.M.
Cdn’t you pick out the best of 6.500 - & also best of the Service cases.
Get on with those. Work them off quicker: and give more room for
discretion for remainder.
317
C.E.
Will consider pre – 1940 cases.
Will say appln can now be made & will be considered on merits.
J.
Advisory Cttee on 18B. Cdn’t you use same system for natn cases. Might
help to put them into categories.
A.B.
Further classification. a) Service cases: naturalise w’out enquiry,
P.M.
Not safe.
R.S.C.
More discretion – and ease up on y/.
A.B.
Need for B nationty for business men to enable them to travel.
G.A.I.
Can H/O. notify M/L. so tht. labour controls can be applied.
5.
Greece
E.B.
As in memo. Called special attentn to proposal for lottery loan.
Mentioned leakage of this in News Chronicle to-day. Thro’ Lobby
Correspondent.
Before any thing said to Leeper or Grk. Govt.
Importance of re-establishing roads & rlways.
Labour Members who have bn. out there now urge that we shd intervene in
Greece.
My policy: can’t get back to democr. there w’out reports. But now think
time to stress economic vice political side.
From Ty. angle must take case: drain on us for 2 yrs. more because troops.
But if we can restore their economy, we cd. strike favourable balance
in the end. i.e. by spending more money for 6 months might save
expend’re on troops for remaining 18.
H.D.
Qua. U.N.R.R.A. propose hold back £5m fr. our contn of £80m. for
Greece & similar countries.
Greece has nearly £40m gold, dollars & sterling – large reserves for so
small a country. No case therefore for loan. Trouble = inflation,
more money than goods. That’s why I support lottery loan.
Must get flow of imports & absorb purchasing power.
E.B.
Must be able to get support of B/T. on supplies. e.g. steel rails if not
available fr. U.S.
P.M.
No announcement?
E.B.
No.
N.B.
U.N.R.R.A. saved big infln in June. Big programme. Two defects
a) staff not good enough. Galc has made some changes. U.S. head shd. be
changed too.
318
Transport, not U.R.R.A.’s fault. Big results from small help on that.
J.J.L.
“Advisors” on Army. Mil. Mission there already under Major Genl.
Racohius.
E.B.
Want now to get Army developmnt. brought into line with econ. policy.
J.J.L.
Big sacrifice – 2 Divns. is Greece getting any more stable?
H.M.
Does E.B. think he can pull this off?
E.B.
Can’t risk doing nothing. Must tell Greeks can’t keep our Divns. there for
ever.
[Exit Cadogan]
6.
International Labour Conference: Philadelphia
G.A.I.
a) Social Insurance. Defer.
Dependent Territories. Accept.
H.M.
73 goes rather far. Giving informn to I.L.O. on measures taken. Goes
deep into policy. Also risk of overlap in the other international
bodies concerned with this ques. Cd. we not reserve the point re
informg. I.L.O.
H..D.
Rpt. cd. be made in general terms.
E.Sh.
More than that. Unless U.S. adopt this p. works policy, their alternative
wd. be investment policy wh. wd. be dangerous to us.
R.S.C.
It is only p. works. Not investment etc., policy.
N.B.
These matters are going to come under other organs. of U.N.O. Must be
co-ordinated under Ec. & Social Council of U.N.O. Inter-deptl
consultn needed x/ soon to get this straight.
G.A.I.
I.L.O. is considering its new relationship to U.N.O. This will work out.
Agreed: subject also to x/.
7.
H.D.
Washington Talks. Financial Questions
Early memo indicatg. diffies if L.L. disappeared. Did disappear. Talks
over 2 mos.
Till now no positive proposals cd. be submitd to Cabinet. For long
no U.S. talk.
Reduced exports & increased imports durg. war. Can’t pay out way until
balance restored. Period = 3 years even with most extreme export
drive.
$ 4 bill. requd to bridge that 3 year gap.
319
Also v. large sterling debts – over £300.m owed to members of sterling
bloc. Paying interest at 1% until Ty. Bill rates reduced to ½% =
£15m p.a.
A magnam. U.S. wd. have made L.L. retro-active. They won’t do it. Nor
will they give interest free load. Best terms likely are those in 2(a) &
(b) of memo.
(b) being accompanied by talks to get agreement. to scaling down of
sterling balances w’in the bloc.
Summd para. 3.
Safeguards: waivers in para. 4 (a) for principal and (b) for interest.
Para. 5. We are satisfied that we cd. meet even the highest alternative,
which costs £40m. a year.
Para. 7. We have resisted financial pressure on economical policy. But we
can get this settlement we are ready to go as far as para.7.
[Enter Helmore]
Commercial Policy
R.S.C.
Revert equally to my memo of August.
Invitation for comm. agreemt. came from us – taken up by U.S. when we
dropped it.
Originated fr. Art 7. of L.L. agreement. Attempt to set up some system of
law & order in internat. trade; & we naturally stood to gain much
from that.
Proposal: U.S. will put out the document unilaterally – suggesting
conferences.
Not supported tht. we shd. be joint authors, but that we shd. indicate
our genl. support of the document. The 14 invitees include 6 Br. 4
European & only 2 S. American “attaches”. Not therefore a final
document to wh. we must agree: but “general approval”. which
involves obligns not to go back on pts. of principle. with wh. we have
agreed. We don’t purport to speak on behalf of Doms. but we have
kept them v. closely in touch & they are au fait with latest position.
Main results of talks. We have establd our pt. of view on every essential
point on wh. we disagreed with U.S. Hardest pt. has bn Imp
Preference. Original U.S. proposal was tantamount to dealing with
Imp Pref. as an inherent vice to be extispated formally with bell,
book & candle. Latest posn = Annex. A.
Thus, a matter for bargaining bi-laterally in the group of 14 as
against what we can get in exchange. U.S. will be asked to say they
have no objn to our using our explantn (Annex B) of the U.S. formula
on Preferences. If they accept Annex B. we have come v. well out of
this discussion.
P.M.
Remember that Coalition under a Tory P.M. accept Art 7 & what it
said re Preferences.
320
R.S.C.
3(a) Preamble: prevents organisation fr. pressing any measures
inconsistent with full employment.
(b) State trading: as in memo.
(c)We have secured control over export subsidies – allowed only for
limited period, ‘subj.’ to commodity research by Organsns with a
view to expanding consumption or failing that agreement between
countries incldg. importers as well as exporters.
(d) Import quotas must not be discriminatory.
d) U.S. have adopted our views on this, viza. matter for domestic
law, but Organisations can receive & transmit complaints.
e) Agreements now satisfy. to M/Arg.
Shipping & civil aviation. We wanted to introduce the first into this. &
they wanted to bring in second. Now suggested better to have both
ques. considered separately at later date.
E.Sh.
But affects foreign assets etc.,
R.S.C.
So do many other things. Ques. is how much do you try to cover in Trade
Agreement. M/W.T. now agree better to handle separately.
Form of organisation – we’ve agreed to nothg. on that: only on these
general principles.
f) Are we committg. ourselves to anytg. but to discuss?
R.S.C.
Yes: we cdn’t go back on genl. principles with which we have agreed.
J.
If you get no agreemt. are you still committed?
R.S.C.
No. Only if we get agreement.
Procedure
A.B.
Matter of gt. importance. Discns procdg. with knowledge of some
members of Cabinet. Other members must have opportunity to study
before they agree. If all inner Cabinet, rest of us have no
responsibility. Nothing to be said for a mixture between that system
& normal system. We are now asked to reach conclusions w’out
background.
P.M.
After general statement made by C/E & B/T. to Cabinet, negotiations
began & touch had to be maintained with negotiators. These
followed by mtgs. of Ministers mainly concerned – not an inner
Cabinet. That method of conductg. business is inevitable.
g) Cdn’t express an opinion on this to-day. No complaint.
A.V.A.
The importance of this – ruin or salvation – is such that we can’t ques. a
hurried decision.
321
R.S.C.
The whole background was given in my memo of Aug. That showed the
problems fully.
E.Sh.
No complaint. But this affects econ. life of U.K. for years to come. Ready
to discuss again to-day. But want to be there. And we have other
engagement.
E.B.
Time-table now is U.S. Must go to Congress on 14/11. And speeches first
by Vinson & Wallace on 12 and 13/11.
R.S.C.
And everyone agrees that we must strike quickly to get best out of
Congress.
Meet again at 4.30.pm.
322
6th November, 1945 at 4.30 p.m.
C.M. 50(45).
1.
Washington Discussions.
Financial Questions and Commercial Policy.
H.D.
Bretton Woods. Nothing in this which affects state trading etc.
Narrower than supposed.
Wd require us to do 3 things
a) secure stable exchange rate
b) .. relaxn of .. restns qua current paymts.
c) .. convertibility of currency.
Of these, a) is to our advantage. Competitive devaluation of
foreign currencies was greatest handicap to our export trade in
inter-war years. Subject to condition: that we can avoid being
dragged down by deflationary depression of other currencies.
For this, escape clauses are provided.
We shd. have to declare our rate of exchange v. dollars & gold.
We can change by 10% either way uni-laterally. Beyond 10%
also, if Gov. Body of Fund are satisf. change needed to correct
fundamental disequilibrium.
Further, any member can w’draw at any time w’out leave or
notice.
Many safeguards, therefore.
Obligations, especially under b) and c), won’t operate until after
transitional period wh. mustn’t be too short. If 5 years, this wd.
do.
Interpretative declaration. Wd. be safe without it. But cautious to
safeguard a) our emplt. policy b) transition: period is at our
option. Read out text from “a)” to (b).
J.
“Necessary” for emplt. policy. Means “necessary” in judgment of
Gov. Body.
H.D.
But if you don’t like their decision you can w’draw from the Fund.
A.B.
Not relevant tht. U.S. have put in similar interpretative Decln. They
have nothg. to fear.
R.S.C.
But U.S. will find it diff. to stop others from barring her imports.
H.D.
My point was merely tht. U.S., having put theirs in, can’t object to
ours.
A.B.
Criticisms – a) we are abandoning Sterling area system.
Safeguards really destroy B.W. Agreemt. And, havg. meanwhile
destroyed Sterling area, we shall be left with neither.
E.Sh.
Sorry to see these separated into w’tight compartments. Can’t discuss
B.W. w’out refce to commercial policy.
323
We begin fr. the point that we must borrow from U.S. But we haven’t
been told yet why, we need to borrow.
H.D.
In my memo. of August. £1.00 m. over 3 years: to buy the imports we
must have.
B. Woods. Talk with J.A. & Keynes: K. admitted it wd. be better to
get Trade agreemt. before B. Woods.
Tho’ borrower in diffies, so often is the lender. What wd. happen in
U.S. if we had to tighten our belt. Ball not entirely at U.S.
feet, since the debtors are essential to U.S. prosperity. We can
therefore strike hard bargain.
Clear intention of U.S. = break up Sterling group. Let us first be sure
of consequences of that. We shall then be entirely in U.S. hands,
who can throw resources where they wish. Don’t play into their
hands by makg. it condn of borrowing from them (wh. is to
their advantage) tht. we shd. accept B. Woods and destroy
Imperial Preference.
How close is B. Woods to Trade Agreement. What is devaluation
for – related to emplt. policy & to trade agreement. Just as
much dictation as it was in 1931. B. Woods postulates nondiscrimination. We must leave our hands free.
Aren’t we too quick to accept this international co-opn idea w’out
seeing first what it means. Do you think U.S. will throw their
markets open to us?
R.S.C.
No agreemt. unless they do.
E.Sh.
Then there won’t be any agreemt. They can be self-sufficient. And
for this nebulous offer, we are going to break Sterling Area and
discard our power of discrimination.
R.S.C.
This is clear issue - are we to maintain Isolationist Policy or to follow
declared policy of Labour Party? Are we going in for attempt
at it. This = all part of a scheme. If one leg breaks, we shall
come our of all these schemes. Our policy = to have a shot at
this, provided we are safeguarded v. failure.
A.V.A.
Was ready to agree to that when it was assumed tht. U.S. wd. approach
this with reasonable moral attitude. Much opinion tht. U.S. are
using financial posn to enable them to break our Imperial
position.
P.M.
Then how do we do this w’out them?
A.V.A.
They are more dependent on us than they suggest.
After 1931 we got on our own feet in 2 years by Imperial trade
system. Think we may have to do the same again unless we can
get better terms.
Don’t yet know what these terms involve. Will they tie a mill stone
round our necks for a generation. a) What happens to pre-war
324
U.S. debt? What is debit value of remanet of L-Lend? Sinking
fund & interest will or may be intolerable burden.
H.D.
On a) no revival & U.S. haven’t asked for it. If they did, we wd.
refuse.
A.V.A.
Then take it out of Budget White Paper.
H.D.
I’m considering that.
On b) all will be wiped out: ½ billion dollars out of this loan will be
attributed to that. Final evaluation, includg. those in pipeline,
are being estimated in Washington.
E.Sh.
And then you pay 2% on them.
R.S.C.
Yes because they are either goods after V.J. Day or goods we intend
to divert to civil uses.
H.D.
L-Lend will be wholly & finally liquidated for this ½ billion dollars.
A.B.
Think we’re giving far too much for what we are getting.
U.S. purpose = liquidate Sterling Area.
St. Area canalises trade. Our creditors are anxious to trade with us
in order to get our goods. (H.D. Unrequited exports)
P.M.
Trouble = large sterling balances: they want goods for which we get
nothg. in return.
H.D.
Sterling bloc is somethg. wh. will go on v. strongly if you don’t make
this agreemt. with U.S. On contrary, they are v. conscious of
the diffy. above, & they will break away. S. Africa will soon
want to go out of it.
E.B.
Started in 1941 – U.S. not in war: no L-Lend. A.G. was then in Chair.
After L-Lend started, K. to help invented Bancor. I got them to
agree to reservation in Interpr. Decln. Then White invented
Unitas. For all these years same arguments all over & over
again.
I hate idea of getting under U.S. control. But situation I’m faced
with is – can you carry thro’ B. people for next 3 years on
lower rations. I believe our bluff is called. We can’t ask them
to face another 3 years of even tighter living – with
industrial unrest. We are in Shylock’s hands. What is lowest
price we can get? Wd. risk a higher price w’out strings. But
we can’t get rid of the strings. And I believe our negotiators
have got the best terms possible. No alternative now but to
accept this unless you are ready to demand these further
sacrifices from the B. people. That this is the real issue now.
325
P.M.
This leads up to Conference. I don’t believe U.S. will reduce
their tariffs.
A.B.
We are to co-operate with U.S. in putting proposals to a Conference.
Para. 7 of H.D.’s document. The “proposals” are in Annex C.
to R.S.C.’s memo. Worried because a) looks as tho’ we enter it
with dangerous proposals many of wh. corresp. to those of
Businessmen’s Confce at Chicago next year. Wdn’t mind going
in with a free hand. But many countries cdn’t fit in with this
19th Century attitude – implied by U.S. proposals.
R.S.C.
They issue this document uni-laterally. What they want us to say is we
give general support to principles & are ready to join on that
basis in March conference. That confce is to see wtr. suff.
prospect of tariff reductions to go on to June Confce on total
scheme of Trade Agreement.
We shd. not run counter to these genl. principles - & shdn’t want to.
For every one of them is among our primary objectives as an
exporting nation. These are all things wh. we asked for; & have
abandoned many things they wanted.
P.M.
Contact with Doms. throughout.
A.
They have made it a condition they shd. get quid pro quo. And ready
to go ahead on that basis. The Int. Decln in Annex B. makes that
clear.
I have no misgivings re Doms. attitude.
T.W.
Our negotiators have bn. amazingly successful. Immense progress
during last few months. We can’t go wrong in agreeing to this
Conference.
P.M.
Issues to be faced. a) Are you ready to tell B. people to suffer 3 more
years of even worse privations?
A.G.
Problems clearly put in p.p. of August by Keynes & R.S.C.
We have done v. well to get so far.
We can’t dictate to U.S. Tho’ their long-term diffies will be greater
than ours, they are on velvet to-day.
Unless immediate relief by U.S., years of privation for U.K.
Take firm decision to-day.
C.E.
Our diffy = no p.p. seen since we saw mema in August.
Any creditor can break a debtor. Only a wise creditor can let him
live & make him pay. U.S. is not a wise creditor.
We may in the end have to ask our people to stand up to it. But we
ought to be able to say tht. it was the creditors & not we who
broke up the Confce. We shd. go to the confce & try to make it
clear to the U.S. people that they have their duties as creditors.
326
Avoid anythg. wh. makes us subservient to U.S. And if it breaks
make it clear that U.S. broke it. As we did for Russia at C.F.M.
J.J.L.
Ques. wtr. B. people wd. stand more privation. Even more important
wd. be loss of all their hopes of international co-opn. U.S. wd.
pull out of responsibilities for occupn etc. Moral loss wd. be greater
than any economic loss.
E.Sh.
Para. 7 of H.D.’s memo. But I have reservns on Annex C. E.g. Russia
has to be brought in: look at para. on State-trading. No
Socialist Govt. cd. accept that.
P.M.
The words aren’t happy, but are directed to use of State trading to
get round tariffs.
E.Sh.
Look also at words on Subsidies. All right if they aren’t concealed.
Concealed State subsidies for shipping in U.S. a) Ask
therefore tht. our hands be not tied. b) Ask tht. we look at
B. Woods after Trade Agreemt.
Wd. be ready to give up b) if you agree to a).
R.S.C.
The deal wd. then be off. Two months’ work wd. be wasted. All
these proposals are our own. State trading – as in telegrams.
H.D.
When it comes to workg. it out at Confce, we can propose detailed
amendmts. We got it agreed tht. State tradg. formula doesn’t
exclude long-term contracts with regular
[Exit P.M.
buyers. Convinced tht. this can be safeguarded by long-term
arrangemts.
R.S.C.
On subsidies –
E.B.
“Commercial” in the telegram. Put “such” before “commercial”.
R.S.C.
We cd. easily do that at the Conference. We accept the general
principle.
E.B.
Try & get it altered now. Drop it if they fuss & raise it at
Conference.
R.S.C.
Soviet case is covered by another clause relatg. to States having
complete monopoly of foreign trade.
A.B.
Can’t agree this is good agreement. Think it is a bad one. And
people will so regard it. Accept F.O. word that alternative
is to bite on the iron: but don’t know how much. Believe
we have under-estimated our own strength & over-estimated
U.S. strength.
327
E.B.
Assured we can’t get thro’ w’out passing to even lower rations for
2 years.
E.Sh.
I wd. rather face that than accept this position. For U.S. won’t be able
to co-operate.
H.D.
What it wd. involve.
To maintain existg. p’mme of consumption & production. 100 needed
fr. U.S. in 1946 alone.
With no imports from U.S. – bread & potato alone wd. be maintained.
redn in fats: no cheese increase: no dried eggs or tinned meat:
15% redn in meat imported: redn in maize, effect on livestock:
50% .. .. sugar: 40% in ply wood: cotton: 80% redn in
tobacco.
No export of steel products.
W’in Ty. I have long refused to believe we are so dependent. And
these facts produced because of my reluctance.
Easy to make a Dunkirk speech. Diff. matter to face those facts. We
really can’t face it.
E.Sh.
What will U.S. do with these goods.
H.D.
They won’t give us them on L.-Lend.
E.Sh.
U.S. will be forced to come to terms with us.
Believe we cd. force U.S. into it. U.S. want to know how they will
dispose of their products.
Let us have the loan, but don’t let us tie our hands.
H.M.
These arguments have bn. tried on U.S. ad nauseam w’out success.
Don’t believe U.S. will give way. They will insist on business
transaction.
n
Pos is worse than 2 years’ rationing. We have to pay for pipe-line LL.
We must have raw materials. We must get dollars in order to
deal with St. Area., who are restive. Shall we have an easier job
in getting the money fr. St. Area vice U.S.
A.V.A.
Quoted K. memo. Also penultimate para. of memo. (29).
What about monthly overdraft instead.
H.D.
K. wrote that before he went out. Now he has produced the waiver,
& wd. say that met his own memo.
Monthly overdraft – we have considered already. We tried that on K.
in Altern. B.
The answer is that this isn’t a possible starter now.
A.B.
Have we bn. negotiating with best people. What about a higher
level? Truman.
R.S.C.
On 12/ll he proposes to commend this plan. That is his view.
328
E.B.
I tried all this on Byrnes, includg. the overdraft. His answer was:
Congress Cttee & we cdn’t carry it.
A.B.
There will be trouble over interpn of Annex C.
R.S.C.
We consider Annex C. highly advantageous apart altogether from the
loan.
J.
Think we are being black-mailed. Prob. we shd. give way to
black-mailer. But don’t think it’s a satisfy. bargain.
Is it poss. to make B. Woods condl on Trade Agreement –
conclusion not opening.
H.D.
Look at B. Woods on basis of Int. Decln. That Decln hasn’t got to
be settled to-night. Can we improve on it?
R.S.C.
If we don’t get a satisf. Trade Agreemt., we can always come out of
B. Woods. Indeed, everyone wd. come out.
H.D.
U.S. attach gt. Party prestige value to B. Woods. They have adopted it.
Want others to do so. Must take a/c of their attitude
H.M.
Remember Art 7 was our promise in return for L-Lend.
H.D.
B. Woods must be ratified by 31/12/45. No use trying to link it with
Conference not mtg. until June.
J.
Interp. Decln. Put legal points on both parts.
H.D.
My purpose is clear. If Ty. words don’t express it, let legal pundits
have another shot at it.
J.
Make it clear & U.S. won’t agree.
H.D.
They won’t be asked to. The technique is conditional acceptance –
accept if Gov. Body agrees to interpretation.
I will continue, with others, to try to improve this drafting.
P.L.
Don’t think loan is v. satisfactory. Hope we may get no worse terms.
But no other solution is better: indeed far worse. We really
can’t go to the world & say we rejected the only scheme wh. cd.
be hatched for finance & trade agreement. Same on B Woods.
We can’t reject the only internatl agreement which is in sight.
H.M.
Accept these recommns as the best we can obtain – is that generally
agreed?
E.Sh.
V. unhappy on Trade Agreement. Must “reserve my position.”
A.B.
Took same view.
329
H.M.
Don’t “reserve yr. posn”. Your doubts will be recorded.
A.V.A.
I too feel uneasy. Even now, negotiators mayn’t get these terms.
The Cabinet shd. have chance to resume discn if worse terms
offered.
A.B.
Speeches. Don’t say this is a good agreement.
E.B.
Say nothing to make our pol. relations with U.S. any worse.
H.M.
We at Cabinet shall have to consider what is to be said.
R.S.C.
Statement after Ques (by me) on 12/11. to explain commercial side.
H.M.
May be necessary to have statement on Financial side too.
Cab. must consider how to handle this when settlement is reached.
E.B.
Want this considered separately, and at leisure.
Agreed: meet again before anything decided to be said.
330
8th November, 1945.
C.M. 51(45).
1.
A.G.
Industrial Injuries Bill.
Mtg. with I.I. Group. After 2 hrs. passed resoln tht. they wanted the
Bill & agreed not to press their amendmts. to a Divn. Wd. have
bn. unwise to ask them to w’draw them from the paper. Agreed
also tht. if Opposn oppose w’drawal of an amendmt. they will
vote with Govt.
2.
Parliament: Next Week’s Business.
H.M.
Read out Programme. Nothing for Cabinet.
W.W.
Friday is thin. N.B. suggests grant for UNRRA. – might be
debated so tht. Govt. can announce intentn & we can bring in
Suppl. Estimate later.
E.W.
As there is unwanted time couldn’t we use it for “as & when” Bills?
H.M.
Leg. Cttee must authorise first.
Can’t quarrel if H/C. despatches leg. business to get more time for
Adjournment.
Not only 2nd Rdg – other stages wd. require time.
H.D.
Thursday: after Procedure: I will move –
a) Sel. Cttee on Member’s expenditure.
b) resoln on 3 leg travel for M.P.’s
A.
Travelling exp. for H/Lords. Memo. sent to H.D. Will t. of r.
for a) exclude H/Lds.
H.D.
Yes: H/C. only.
H.M.
Week after: 2 day debate on f. affairs: will be on 21/22 Nov. if
convenient.
E.B.
Yes. But ready to put off for another week if P.M. not back. And
shd. be so postponed. That shd. be watched.
b) Private Notice Question on Leakage re. Hospitals.
P.M.
W.S.C. is asking a P.Q. to-day. What does M/H. say?
A.B.
Have enqud. S. Pictorial first. No leakage fr. my Dpt. so far as I can
find. Cab. pp. penetrate deeply into Dpts. for wh. I can’t be
responsible.
Also wide knowledge of our views. Also vol. hosp. have bn.
331
flying kites.
Say H/C. must await decision & announcemt. by Govt.
A.V.A.
My Junior Ministers complain tht. they hear of Cab. pp. from
others.
P.M.
I will send round a note – warning of need for discretion.
3.
Site of United Nations Organisation.
E.B.
As in memo.
H.D.
Repeated earlier argument in favour of U.S. location in order to keep
U.S. in the Organn.
Gt. objn to return to Geneva – lost hopes.
Won’t press my U.S. view if F.O. strongly opposed to it: but
if Europe hope much thought for alternatives to Geneva.
E.g. The Hague, Oslo, Copenhagen.
E.B.
History is v. that argument. U.S. brgth. into Europ. affairs largely
thro’ joining I.L.O. and extension of U.S. travel in Europe.
After hearing arguments, I’ve concluded balance/arguments in
Europe. Agree don’t press Geneva: suggest all European
alternatives be explored.
P.M.
Supported this F.O. view.
E.W.
UNESCO. – don’t want to go to U.S. (cdn’t afford it). French pressg.
for Paris. U.S. wd. agree. But shd. U.K. take the line tht. it shd.
go wherever UNO. goes?
P.M.
Argument for not havg. all internatl organns together.
H.M.
..
the other way because need for integration.
A.
Doms. consulted. Evatt only one to take def. line – in favour of U.S.
Massey & M. King attach importce to lobbying & publicity if in
U.S. They don’t want any N. American site. They don’t like
Geneva however. S.A. don’t favour U.S.
N.B.
Evatt’s view is based on view tht. Pacific will be centre of world
affairs. Nonsense. U.S. will say nothg. publicly – but State
Dpt. believe best way to beat isolationism is to have U.S.
coming to Europe.
All organns is one place: argument of integration is strong. Also
common services: resident Press.
E.W.
P.M.
Appeal v. that view. Advantage of taking these gatherings round.
Support Europe: all alternatives be considered.
On UNESCO: don’t tie all organns to one place. Compromise – some
332
shd. be in same place, not all.
H.M.
Let subsidiary siting be considered in light of genl. rept. on all –
by F.O.
H.D.
Para. 13 is a bit out of line with view of Cabinet.
H.M.
Doesn’t matter where conferences held: but don’t decide tht. H.Q.
can be scattered.
E.W.
Freedom now – we cd. come into line later.
N.B.
The strongest case for separate H.Q. (i.e. away from general) is
that of education. But broad principle as H.M. – offices in
same place, tho’ confces can go round/
E.B.
Too many organisns anyhow.
Let tempy H.Q. be anywhere – but w’out prejudice to genl. decision.
[Exit N.B. Enter Wilmot
4.
International Control of Atomic Energy.
P.M.
Didn’t want to get at once into detailed ques. of policing the bomb etc.
Wanted first to talk on basis tht. this discovery alters whole basis
of world peace.
Para. 2 is most important. Real aim shd. be to get behaviour right –
then bomb won’t matter.
Scientific basis – genl. knowledge. In a few years everyone will
know how to make it .
Industrial use – at least 10/20 yrs. ahead.
Moral: get together with U.S. & Russia & others & develop U.N.
conception.
Don’t believe in a) genl. agreemt. not to use it.
b) we cd. use it to threaten others. U.K. is in most
unfavourable geogr. posn.
c) agreemt. tht. we wd. use it v. anyone who first used
it, wtr. aggressor or not.
Start therefore on basis can’t regulate this w’out world good will.
Logic of situation i) no secret wh. can be kept. In time can be
developed widely by nations.
ii) therefore effective world organn is only remedy.
H.M.
How do we go? Assume no./countries will make & hold a. bombs.
We must do so ourselves. Agreemt. v. aggress. warfare is old
problem: only new thing: nastier weapon. But still have the fear
tht. someone won’t play & must therefore be prepd for bad faith.
Let Intern. Org. prohibit their use. No good however unless you let it
be known at once tht. anyone who brks. faith will be forcibly
suppd if need be by means includg. a. bombs. Open ques. wtr.
a. bomb must be used for this purpose.
333
Does P.M.’s memo. p.3. lead back to disarmament mistakes of
inter-war years?
Failure then was merely hoping people wd. behave, with no
power of effective sanctions.
P.M.
Danger: isolate a. bomb & deal separately.
Logic is: outlaw all war, much more than ever before.
A.B.
Sense of security essential prelimin. to readiness to disarm.
P.4. (f) R. will say “thanks for nil”. If true tht. R can make in a
2 yrs worth dramatic gesture – give it them now. If mutual
confidence is basis of peace we shd. not only declare but
ensue it. Attempt to restrict this to a few countries will brk.
attempts at U.N.O. Must take some risks in attempt to
create feelings of mutual confidence.
P.M.
We’ve given R. everythg. during war: & received nothg.
Little return from giving things to R.
R.S.C.
This is peculiar case. In 10 yrs. R. will be able to make it. Won’t
make much diff. if we tell them – might reduce it to 5.
Ques. is therefore of tactics. Shall we rule this out at once as a
power politics factor & let everyone have it at once. Believe,
if we are running policy of moral basis vice power politics,
first need is to do this with the a. bomb.
E.Sh.
x/ in (f). R. may be suspicious of Anglo-U.S. intentns & reluctant
to discuss world organ. unless a. bomb included in it. Doubt
if we’ll get anywhere by approach as at x/. Wd. prefer to
modify that, in order to remove R. suspicion.
Agree they aren’t playing ball. But suspicions founded on pre-war
experience attitude of capitalist countries.
a) Wd. like to offer the bomb but link the offer with discns themselves.
b) I assume small country cd. make this. Prs. a Fascist country, like
Spain. Need therefore for U.N.O. to promote democracy.
P.M.
Suspicions on both sides. U.S. are suspicious of R. Both sides have
cause for suspicion.
E.B.
Worried about this memo. because all related to a. bomb: and this is
only one of a no. of nasty weapons. Risk tht. conversns will
turn on a bomb unduly – and leave e.g. R. to go ahead
undisturbed with other nasty weapons.
Vice (f) As soon as UNO organ. & accepted give it function of
examing. & recommendg. means of exchanging informn re
fundam. scientific research & all new weapons. Wd. be
in keepg. with war-time agreemts: the reservation clause might
have to be modified. Wd. like some specl. machinery of U.N.O.
to deal with this. Such an arrangemt. might put U.N.O. on its
feet.
334
R.S.C.
A Scientific Genl. Staff attd to U.N.O. – comparable to Mil. Staff
Cttee?
E.B.
Whose findings shd. be common property of U.N.
P.M.
Wd. like to move in tht. dirn. Diffy about diffce between scientific
discovery & know how.
Not (in reply to A.B.) to R. alone: China, Argentine, & others wd.
have to have it.
Want to lift this away fr. a. bomb to genl. powers of destn. Welcome
E.B’s suggn.
E.B.
Where an invention has peaceful use ……….
Wdn’t remove (f) – but wd. supplement it. (f) = situation we now face.
My suggn is goal to which we work.
R.S.C.
We have enough arms now to keep world in order. What we want is
to prevent competitive race in terror quality of new weapons.
If we can stop that – competitive drive for terror weapons & we
can later disarm other weapons.
A.V.A.
Some inconsistencies in P.M.’s memo.
Para. 10(d). Public opinion will aspect one: & you will need one.
Para. 10(d) is inconsistent with some arguments used in para. 6.
Hope you won’t exclude fr. yr. mind possibility of convention.
Fear of Ldn’s vulnerability – same thing brought down L/N.
sanctions because France feared.
Conventn re gas has had restraing. influence. (Disagreemt. expd.)
A.B.
Main anxiety – argument betwn U.S. & Russia.
Let G.B. mediate: and let our view be known. Rally round G.B. the
nations who fear this hostility betwn. U.S. & U.S.S.R. Agree
with much of what E.B. has said.
R. is frightened. Pride based on R. Army: & a. bomb has wrecked
it overnight.
We must get at the state of mind wh. is behind R. suspicion.
P.L.
One aspect not covered. Unlikely anyone will start by dropping an
a. bomb. What is likely is: a Power will want to do somethg.
at expense of small neighbour: & will use threat of a. bomb
to secure its ends. What is to be our posn in that case? We
cdn’t protect Danzig – only attack Germany. That only gets
into war, leadg. to destn of civilisation.
A.B.
With universal awareness of weapons, we shd. avoid situation in wh.
an aggressor can rely on weapons which others haven’t got.
My objn to Conventn (AVA) is tht. it is delusion to suppose you have
done anythg. by getting that paper protection. That is my only
P.M.
335
point. You may have Conventns: but they alone won’t protect
you: must be part of U.N.O. & good will & knowledge.
R.S.C.
Remember that scientists are serious in their view tht. they will not
hold their mouths merely because they are told so by Govts.
E.Sh.
In discn of atomic energy when it comes remember my Dpt.
P.M.
Consensus of view – clear enough. Grateful to Cabinet. Points
raised from U.S. – my view
a) Genl. discns – not agenda.
b) No submn of document.
A.G.
Let it be known tht. U.K. took initiative in this - & mean to keep it.
[Exit Wilmot.
[Enter Shawcross. Buchanan
Adam.
5.
Man Power: Release of Doctors from Services.
P.M.
Service-men being healthiest shdn’t require highest ratio. V. unhappy
over this. What were reasons adduced by Service chiefs?
A.V.A.
They have duty of maintg. healthy & effic. force.
Even in 1929/33 4 per 1.000 – in days of direst economy.
In war, with added risks, 3 per 1.000.
Insufft. time for me to consider this further cut recommd.
This recommn wd. make it imposs. to maintain standards in Navy.
P.M.
In 1929/33 no shortage of drs. Cut made solely for financial reasons.
Now we are at end/war in wh. gt. sacrifices made to Services – wrong
now to compare with 1929.
I can’t believe tht. this ratio is needed now war is over.
Immediate posn is what must be considered.
C.E.
A.G. and I enqud: saw civil Ministers concerned: repres of Serv. Dpts.,
junior Ministers.
On our recommns we provide for civilians under ½ ratio given for
Services.
Our concln: main need for protn at present = civil popn.
Competing claims on doctors. The Services have got them. Our
recommns won’t get us up to 1.p. 1.000 for civil popn.
Even with this cut, nos. comg. out as g.p.’s will leave only 47 p. 1.000.
So many of them want to get out into specialist practice.
On comparison of ratio’s, there is case for larger cuts. But smaller
packets - & high accident rate in R.A.F. make higher Service
ratio justifiable.
J.J.L.
Protest v. late delivery. I only got this y’day.
336
P.M.
Circulated 8.a.m. Tuesday.
S.
We don’t like this – but will accept it.
J.J.L.
Potentialities this winter: epidemics.
P.M.
But risk is even – civilians as well as soldiers.
A.
Supported memo. True: small packets: but also large numbers.
Civilian risk is much greater.
Ratio in Army is excessive and always has been.
R.A.F. lowest average ratio, & highest casualty rate – willing to
accept this cut.
H.D.
This memo. = moderate under-statement.
Don’t understand why ratio in peace shd. be any higher than civil.
Take this cut. But go further. Take census of how much time drs.
in Services spend in medical work.
A.B.
Obliged to C.E. & A.G. This has bn. going on since July. And
Service Dpts. haven’t yet carried out instns of W.S.C. A bit
much therefore to say not enough time to consider memo.
E.B.
Agreed. Glasgow 1. to 3.000 } Districts where v. hard work is
Greenock 1. .. 4.100 } being done.
H.M.
Service Dpts. must adopt these decisions & give effect to it. }
report progress week by week.
}
J.J.L.
Under Class A or B?
A.B.
Under A mostly.
Agreed.
H.M.
But get them out, one way or another – para. 13.
[ Exit Adam.
Shawcross.
6.
Organisations Influenced by Political Party: Attitude of Govt. Dpts.
C.E.
Diff. to have absolute ban while Communism is still legal. Ministers
shd. exercise discretion.
H.M.
Was arranged during war tht. Ministers in doubt shd. refer to
Home Secy. who wd. decide, subject in need to reference to
Cabinet or P.M.
Convenient tht. this arrangement shd. continue.
Agreed: as in H.M.
337
13th November, 1945.
C.M. 52(45).
1.
Nationalisation Proposals: Public Announcement.
H.M.
Summd earlier Cab. discns – considd by interested Ministers
& L.P. Cttee.
P.M. agreed I shd. make statement in his absence.
E.Sh.
Para. 2. line 2: “will” vice “intend to”
line 6: “the Govt. intend to introduce” measures.
A.
Paras. 3-4. Country carrier not affected – is it worth makg. it clear.
R.S.C.
Does this cover priv. firm running own haulage?
A.B.
No.
R.S.C.
Make that clear too.
A.B.
Mainly A licences. Cd. clarify in subsequent announcemt. Will hold
Press conference. Better than incldg. it in genl. announcement.
Wd. overload it.
H.M.
Must be briefed for supplementary on this.
A. Bev.
Risk of restrictg. ourselves for whole of this Parlt.
H.M.
Not completely rigid: but dangerous to go outside “Let us Face
Future”.
Need for makg. intentns clear for industry must know where it stands.
A.Bev.
Cement. Increased use: might have to take over.
H.M.
Cd. be done on merits if diffy. developed w’out taking control.
E.B.
Para. 6. Concerned at leavg. this for examn. Docks are “interestcontrolled” shippg. cos. etc. Docks pre-war never worked more
than 27% capacity – for lack of national plan & orderly
developmt. Enorm. capital cost crippled efficiency. Hope
there will be national scheme, tho’ Regional control. Mersey
D & H. Bd. not so hot, nor even P.L.A.
Services – pilotage etc. Will you do anythg. on this? River undertakings.
R.S.C.
x/ Add “and appropriate ancillary” after “harbour”.
E.Sh.
Pilotage & charges, yes. But what do you mean by “ancillary”. Road
services covered already.
R.S.C.
Lighters, tugs, wharfage, warehousing.
338
E.Sh.
Lighters takes you into shipping – composite undertakgs.
Words better as they stand: consider how far you then go.
R.S.C.
No: for “d. undertakg.” is a legislative unit & doesn’t cover any
ancillary undertakg.
A.B.
Prefer words as they stand because addns will draw fire & divert
discn to the fringes.
Agreed as at x/.
A.B.
Para. 6. lines 3 & 4 delete “comply with …... efficiency ….. interest”.
Suff. covered by followg. sentence. Shipping strained durg. war
& will be in diffy. post-war.
Can’t give them special support because commercial policy.
Agreed.
E.Sh.
Coastwise. Refce is too vague. Must decide one way or other. I favour
takg. it over. If you decide to contrary, better say so at once.
E.B.
Take over liner coastwise tonnage – amalgamated & ready. But small
concerns on varying business you can’t take over: sometimes
coastwise, sometimes cross-Channel.
H.M.
Our view was: gt. deal being covered (rlways, road haulage, road
passenger, canals, docks & harbours). Better not to touch
shipping at all.
E.B.
Liner coastwise is v. like Class A road carriage.
A.B.
Started with idea of takg. over: came to concln we had better leave it
out.
H.M.
Say so: “while not proposed to take over c. shipping will be nec. to
integrate it with inland transport.”
Or – omit all reference.
Agreed.
A.Bev.
Para. 7. This was in our programme. This introduces note of doubt.
J.W.
My view = favour of publ. control. But rpt. havg. bn. asked for & due
w’in a week.
We shd. be open to criticism if on eve of rpt. we indicated closed mind.
A.V.A.
Country has given mandate in favour of p. control, but rpt……….
A.G.
Add word “final decision.
J.
Paras. 8 & 9. Diff. to read together.
H.D.
Intentn was tht. final sentence shd. be substituted for penultimate
sentence.
Agreed.
339
H.M.
Both points ought to be made i.e. both 8 & 9. Are both points made
if penult. sentence is omitted.
E.Sh.
Prefer to omit 8: will be misunderstood. It’s all in 9.
R.S.C.
Diff. pt. V. important. Must fix date as fr. wh. compn payable.
Give notice now. Add, however – “except as stated in
para. 9. ……”
J.W.
Last sentence of 8. unnecessary – throws further doubt on iron &
steel.
H.M.
{ Make it clear refers to all undertakgs. mentioned.
{ Omit 2nd sentence of para. 8. & penultimate sentence of 9.
{ Amalgamate the 2 paras.
Para. 9. Line 5. “progressive undertakgs” vice “industries”.
Agreed. Date to be decided by H.M. Prob. Wednesday.
[Exit Barnes & Wilmot.
[Enter Smith & Fraser.
2.
Agricultural Policy.
T.W.
Accords with Labour Party policy.
B.S.
Accept it. Diffces of view on detail now reconciled.
M/F. shd. be repd in discns with industry.
T.W.
Yes.
E.W.
More emphasis on vegetables, particularly near towns.
T.W.
Doesn’t need such long-term measures.
A.Bev.
We are concerned re impure milk. Bovine t.b. sharply increased durg.
war. U.S. soldier forbidden to drink our milk. 16% infected.
Intend to submit memo. Notice to T.W.
E.W.
How long shall we subsidise wheat? Normally can get it so cheaply
abroad tht. isn’t fair to subsidise it. Green veg. & fruits shdn’t be
so dear: wd. be better to subsidise that.
T.W.
Wheat was never basis of our agric. Always was a limit. Must be so
because rotation. Price already reduced for ’46. Never our
intn to force up wheat. We are going rather for livestock.
Re fruit: v. large market. But, save for few apples, our produce is
gone by Xmas.
A.
This is mainly marketing – vegetables need no subsidy if that is met.
Requiremt. on landlords re equipmt. will need developmt. later.
340
J.
Bar to efficiency: one farmer owng. land wh. shd. be farmed by
another.
T.W.
No power. Dynamite. Thousands of adjustmt. by sale. Can’t do
more w’out natn – save by persuasion wh. Cttees exercise now.
A.Bev.
Cd. M/Ag. & M/F. & B/T. examine marketing of vegetables?
T.W.
Two years ago asked for post-war scheme for marketing. Have it well
in mind.
Agreed this shd. be followed up.
T.W.
Pure milk. What about condns in U.S.?
Bldgs. wd. cost £300 m. – to put us in posn to get clean milk.
E.Bev.
Will have to co-erce farmers in the end.
Agreed: Pure milk to await memo.
H.M.
At end of para. 11. ? add refce to appt compensn.
T.F.
Was not in full agreemt. at L.P. Cttee. But now support this memo.
This isn’t comprehensive. Deprecate trying to put much additional
matter into it.
On basis of this we can develop policy.
G.E.
N. Ireland is satisfied with this statement.
R.S.C.
Shd. it be made more clear tht. this statement covers Scotland.
H.M.
Para. 7. of memo. Next Sessions p’mme can’t yet be pledged. No
statement w’out authy.
Demand for Debate cdn’t be resisted.
A.
Correspdg. statemt. in H/Lds.
M/Ag. to consider.
Agreed.
[Exit Fraser. Smith.
3.
Future of Department of Overseas Trade.
R.S.C.
P.M. agreed: only comment was Cttee of Junior Ministers.
H.M.
More effective wd. be offls. with Junior Minister in chair.
R.S.C.
Can be done, this one, by Junior Ministers. Much politics in it.
P.L.
Proposed transfer of Institute. Burma & to some extent India have
made some contn: unfair to put it under C.O.
R.S.C.
Really a research institute. Best place wd. be under L.P.
G.H.
We haven’t asked for it. Don’t want it regarded as Colonial. Wd.
341
accept L.P.
H.M.
Agreed.
R.S.L.
Delete Ministerial Cttee on O. Econ. Policy. }
} Agreed.
Report to Cabinet, not L.P.(I).
}
G.A.I.
Add M/Labour to Cttee.
R.S.C.
F.O. shd. make an announcement.
E.B.
It is M.G. business. P.M. shd. announce it on return.
4.
Agreed.
M/Ag. to receive pp.
Sarawak.
G.H.
Rajah seen – v. much more forthcoming. Wants to arrange cession to
H.M. Govt.
Para. 4. Consent of Asiatic Members. He is in favour of this: & we
recommend it.
He wd. like to pay one last visit, himself. I’ve agreed to that.
H.D.
On finance – Rajah has nearly £1 m. balance. We think this shd. be
available for reconstn of the country. He shdn’t. get away with
the whole of it. No commitment w’out consultn with Ty.
G.H.
Agreed.
J.J.L.
S. is in Australian Command. They shd. be told of visit?
A.
No comment.
Agreed.
5.
[Enter Ch. whip.
National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) Bill.
H.M.
Movemt. to raise 45/= to 55/= and 60/=
Cab. understood 45/= was limit.
Mtg. with group – long discussion – in the end they didn’t press.
Now Harner & Lawther are threatening tht. miners won’t work unless
they get more.
Old story – miners trying to outdo T.U.C. They want to see P.M.
Question: a) shd. they be seen i.e. in addn to our havg. seen T.U.C.
b) do we stand firm on 45/=.
W.W.
Told them Cab. wdn’t move from 45/=.
T.W.
V. awkward if we have to meet sections of T.U.C. after negotiating
with T.U.C..
How many more sections will come along?
This is one of our biggest measures. Must remain i/c.
E.B.
As individuals or on behalf of Miners’ Executive?
342
W.W.
The latter.
H.D.
Lawther sits in St. Cttee. Members (incldg. T. Smith) take his
instns there.
E.Sh.
They raised this with me last Friday.
I believe the Horner set-up has found they can’t step up prodn & are
seeking alibi.
Expd on this – also on 5 day wk. At B’pool I said I looked fwd.,
when output was right, to 5 day wk. Now they raise “short
Saturday” & press me v. hard. Have had to oppose it.
Believe Lawther, who is in truculent mood, is seeking a point on wh.
he can say “that’s why you don’t get prodn”.
In fact this has no connn with output.
May be good tactics to see these two, to mollify them. Industry =
restive.
J.G.
Said y’day balance of advantage = see them.
[Enter J. Gr.
d
ns
res
Earlier I rec dep (2) from miners rep & reported to S.S. Cttee.
Specially desirable to bring out that 45/= is not all the Bill provides.
Miners don’t realise what other provn is made in the Bill.
G.A.I.
Diff. ques. Was against it before E.Sh. met.
In T.U.C. strong resentment at sectional groups deputing as well.
No harm in seeing them to refuse. If concessions follow other sections
will depute gt. trouble with T.U.C.
You mustn’t throw over T.U.C. on this Bill
A.G.
Wd. be wrong to receive miners. Wd. be better to see T.U.C. (incldg.
miners). Otherwise we wd. elevate miners to status they don’t
deserve.
A.Bev.
Supported this. In miners’ Union no. of people who manipulate it for
pol. purposes. Lawther is only a tool of the Communist element.
Positive suggn One diffy. = Communists prominent in T.U. movemt.
are preventg. followers fr. ascertaing. facts. Strike last year
in mines because men didn’t know terms of Porter award. Ask
T.U.C. therefore to consider means of disseminatg. informn to
the men: ask them to print a leaflet on Bill & circulate it.
H.M.
Good idea. And when Bill is passed Minister shd. broadcast.
E.B.
Support A.G. Miners always worst informed of all workers.
Informn service: not enough use made of T.U. journals.
Need for Journal for miners now a Union not a Federation.
H.M.
Agreed this suggn also be considered.
E.B.
B’castg. time: after 1.p.m. on Sunday is best for miners.
343
J.G.
We issued statemt. last Friday – but got v. little space.
Agreed: P.M. on return to see T.U.C.
[Exit: Griffith
H.M. to handle correspondence.
6.
H.M.
Parliament.
Postpone F. Affairs Debate to followg. wk., prob. Thurs/Friday.
Agreed.
7.
Palestine.
Draft statement read out.
E.B.
I will add a para. explaining C.O. as well as F.O. interest.
Cabled to U.S. Response not v. good. Telegram read.
At least U.S. are in the Cttee.
G.E.
Statement on immigration to-day. Shd. it precede or follow?
E.B.
Good effect in U.S. if made same day.
H.M.
Debate. If demanded to-day will promise announcemt. on Thursday –
on business.
344
Agreed.
15th November, 1945.
C.M. 53(45).
1.
Parliament.
H.M.
Wed. – Elections & Jurors or Housing Materials. Probably the second.
Thur/Fri – F. Affairs. Expect P.M. to be back. E.B. & P.M. anyway –
3rd spker. if necessary.
E.B.
I cd. open on Thursday – leave Friday to P.M. N.B. cd. wind up on
1st day. – clear ordinary F.O. business on Thursday, and keep
Washington business separate.
H.D.
We may have meantime decn on W. talks. U.S. may have publd. May
be diff. to keep it out of debate.
H.M.
On Bldg. Materials – M/W. to open: M/H. to wind up.
H.M.
Opposn thinkg. of tabling Motion of gratitude to Eisenhower & other
commanders.
R. Glyn has suggd Parlt. shd. receive E. as Supreme commr. I expd
doubt – other Supreme commrs. too. P.M. agrees it wd. not
be desirable.
R.S.C.
Give him a dinner – Cabinet & some opposn members – e.g. in
H/Commons.
You do this to visitors, not to our own people.
Agreed: R.S.C. suggn to be put to P.M.
2.
H.M.
H.D.
Town & Country Planning: Compensation & Betterment.
Coalition Govt. considered for years & cd. find no solution.
Sub-Cttee of L.P. Cttee settled principles – remitted to officials
to work out – Ministers then considered again. Agreement
reached by offls. & Ministers save on 2 Ty. points:
a) amount b) date of compensation.
If we can remove the speculative development value, we shall have
struck a gt. blow for planning. What we are at is to socialise
development values at one stroke; & thereafter planning can
proceed on merits, purchase can be cheaper, land natn
ultimately will be cheaper.
Outlines pros and cons. of disputed points.
Supported majority view. Shan’t get going with planning unless this
is done. Ty. want to watch relative costs of c. & l. & adjust
policy to fit finance. Fear that will lead us back to old situation
in wh. planning is frustrated by finance.
At this stage, want only decisions of principle – so tht. prepn of Bill
can proceed.
Issues stated in memo.
I cd. not be present at Cttee’s last mtg. – nor cd. F. Secretary.
345
Favour bold planning: want T.C.P. to have full powers: wd. like
chance to discuss with L. Silkin on various suggns.
On 2 major points. Have bn. workg. on financial policy which will be
consistent with our Party policy but continue confidence. Here
for first time is a proposn to commit U.K. to an entirely unknown
amount of money. That really is too starry-eyed even for a
Socialist Govt. Might feel different if we cd. get some element
of known into this ocean of unknown. To whom will these
unknown payments be made? To land-owners, in return
for theoretical developmt. values wh. will never be realised.
Don’t think more than 25% wd. in fact be developed – even
less perhaps. 50% to 40% is no concession to me. So much
for the amount.
On timing. Issue of this money 3 years fr. passing of Bill = eve of
Genl. Election. Worst possible time. Slump gilt-edged
securities – raise interest rates – impede cheap money policy.
Trying to reduce borrowg. rates for housing – wd be frustrated.
No other time wd. be much better if it has all to be done at once.
Betterment is illusory for many years.
First thoughts were best – before officials got at it. Min. Mtg. 28/8 –
para. 36.
Why did we depart from this? Because offls. thght. it wd. choke
adminve machine with bogus applns. That adminve diffy shd. be
faced: means must be found of curing it.
Have had no direct discussion with Minister. Wd. like one.
L.S.
Ready to talk. But if we are to get this Bill, this Session shd. give
instns to-day.
True we can’t say what it will cost. But doesn’t follow that its infinite.
My figure is between £250 and 500 m.
Not much scope for changes in existg. use in developed areas. But
even assume cost will be equal to that in undeveloped, cost on
Barlow estimate is £800 m. Say £1.000 m if you like: we pay
only 40%: my upper limit is therefore £500 m. That amount
must be paid anyway. On C/E method it may be by instalments.
But will it? 95% will apply at once. They will have to be
handled: if decision not given w’in 2 months they are deemed to
be refused – under existg. law. If 95% applied it wd. be not a
matter of admin. inconvenience, it wd. be an impossible clog in
all planning authies throughout the country. The machine wd.
stop. You wd. save no money, in the aggregate, now in point of
time.
Further reason. We are socialisg. d. values. Must belong to
community so tht. our planning can be free of financial
frustration – in individual cases. Thus, acquire at one stroke:
then plan on merits.
Mustn’t be financially blind. Policy of allowg. greater developmt.
might be justified if betterment isn’t coming in fast enough.
Wd. be a legitimate argument. But want that on policy,
not on individual applns.
346
On percentage – admit figure is speculative. Uthwatt said
aggregation wd. be 2-3 times too high = between 331/3 and
50%. Ty. suggn of 25% is below the only touchstone we have.
We cd justify 331/3 by refce to Uthwatt: but cdn’t justify a lower
figure. Willing to go down to 331/3%. Willing to adopt 5 years
vice 3. – that was the term mentioned in U.P. on Control of
Land Use. It was criticised then: you take his developmt. right
fr. him & don’t pay for 5 years.
Suggest – 5 years & 331/3% & will talk to H.D.
T.W.
C/E. is committed to indeterminate figure, even on “as & when” basis.
Contingent sum – but only 40% not 100% of it.
“As & when” wd. be fatal to agr. and – because it wd. be said to be too
expensive to prevent its development.
[Exit T.W.
E.B.
All other points agreed? Is it only 331/3% and 5 years? What about
the close estimatg. of total cost.
H.D.
Yes: the total remains uncertain. Tho’ I accept 331/3% and 5 years.
Can I have £500 m. as a ceiling – in the Bill?
[Enter C.E.
E.B.
Always argument re total sum. If 331/3% + 5 yrs. is accepted, will
H.D. accept the princ. of the scheme & instruct Ty. with T.C.P.
x/ to reconsider total cost & report again on that to Cab. Can’t yet
decide wtr. it ought to go into Bill. (Cdn’t put both total &
estimate.) But you cd. be in position to make a statement in
Parl. on introdn of Bill.
A.B.
Ty. diffy. = unloadg. in cash what is only potential developmt. value.
Paying in cash for somethg. which no one has worked on. This
might easily be an inflationary act.
Can’t you recognise compromise. a) freeze posn so tht. planning can
proceed. b) sifting machinery so as to postpone paymt. until
developmt. about to occur.
R.S.C.
Aim = limit area of claim. ?Associate with the claim an option to
y/ purchase by l.a. or L. Commn. That wd. rule out many claims.
People wd. hesitate to claim.
Agreed: As at x/ and T.C.P. to consider y/.
J.
Wd. like to see gradations of percentages acc. to ripeness etc. To avoid
injustice, paying some too much, others too little. Cd. H.D. and
L.S. bear this in mind in their discussions.
H.D.
Shd. come back to Cabinet anyhow.
H.M.
When Bill is ready.
A.B.
Gradations in time as well as amount of payment.
[Exit Silkin.
347
3.
H.M.
Atomic Energy.
Handed in Harvard 17 & 18.
E.B.
One thing we prev. forgot. Reservation shd. be made re power of veto.
Which cd. nullify the whole thing. No one shd. have power of
veto on this. Directive to Commn cd. invite then to consider that
point. Needn’t ask that it be in the statement, tho’ P.M. cd.
consider that point. Needn’t ask that if be in the statement,
x/
tho’ P.M. cd. consider that point.
Agreed.
R.S.C.
y/ Para. 3: 2nd sentence. Para. 6 last sentence – contradictory.
A.
Para. 3: production. Para. 6 = use.
R.S.C.
Not convinced.
E.Sh.
Point is U.S. will not disclose production know-how until we can get
satisfy. guarantees re use of bomb. Think U.S. have whip-hand –
meanwhile they can use the informn as they like for industrial
purposes. And until all other nations come into agreemt. on
bomb, we can’t have industrial knowledge.
R.S.C.
Other arrangemts. for us & Canada to get the practical knowledge for
industrial use.
This is the 3 Parties addressing rest of world.
E.B.
Quebec Agreemt. covers that - & must be cleared up.
E.Sh.
Cabinet hasn’t enough informn. Have we really got the practical
know-how & can we use it for industrial purposes.
R.S.C.
We’ve got it all up to end/war. Agreemt. to pool for mil. purposes:
but we were limited on industrial side by discretion of President.
We have asked P.M. to secure release fr. that clause. But that
is a matter between U.S., Canada & ourselves.
H.M.
P.M. will report on that.
A.V.A.
Cl. 7(d). Thought we had agreed inspn impracticable.
H.M.
Yes: but no harm in Commn considering it.
A.B.
Idea was – make a new start & inspire confidence by a gesture at this
moment.
We haven’t done it. This document will cement W. v. E.
Hemisphere bloc.
V. serious consequences.
348
E.B.
Essence of this = Para. 7. New principle. Removes it from U.S. Too
much talk of a. energy: not enough of other weapons.
H.M.
Can I remind P.M. of x/. Call attention to y/.
R.S.C.
End of 6 – “just as soon as the procedure suggested in 7 can be
carried through.”
Information to Parlt. Read it out at 4 p.m. if P.M. agrees. Agreed.
4.
India.
Remit to India Committee.
5.
Ceylon.
Approved.
349
20th November, 1945.
C.M. 54(45).
1.
Miscellaneous.
P.M.’s arrival. 2.44 Northolt – or later if fog. Ministers to meet him
at No. 10.
Emergency Laws Bill. Ministers shd. be on the Bench.
2.
Releases of Doctors from Forces.
H.M.
Method of giving effect to Cab. decision.
Summd own memo.
Gave figures, as in brief. Suggests need for clean-cut Class A
releases.
J.J.L.
Principle: doctors no diff. from others. Critics of principle will
use doctor exceptn as ground for general attack.
Variation between Commands, if these nos. drawn out. Need for
serious thought on method. Adhere to my minute.
A.V.A.
450-500 were to be released by end/45. Thus addn of 800 or so in
8 wks. fr. 8/11. Don’t see how it can be done in the time.
Only rapid method = Commands to forward nominal list &
release in effect redundant doctors & cut into age & service
principle.
Wd. have preferred to get largest no. in Class B because
directable. But agree Class B. procedure wd. be more lengthy.
Every shore station 500 or under wd. be w’out a doctor. And
all but largest ships wd. go to sea w’out a doctor.
S.
We will produce the 880. We can’t then release more in Cl. B.
w’out replacement.
A.V.A.
We have to provide drs. for merchant navy in foreign ports.
A.B.
Always thought release in Class A wd. be necessary.
C.E.
Favour use of Class A. Even when these releases made, Services will
have double the ratio.
J.J.L.
But some Commands will have less.
C.E.
That is a matter for internal organn of Army.
A.
Adhere to these targets.
Wdn’t damage age & service principle.
E.W.
Concerned re health of school-children – season of epidemics.
350
H.M.
Cabinet decision must stand: & orders must be given
accordingly.
Not concerned with adjustments on methods of release.
No point in further argument or delay – or enquiry.
A.V.A.
Must put in a statement showg. what this means.
[Enter Strauss, Smith
[ Tomlinson, Leonard.
3.
Labour Controls.
G.A.I.
Return of volunteers to cotton when dirn w’drawn.
Direction generally can’t be enforced – can’t prosecute – but if
limited to 30 we cd. enforce.
Administration is crumbling.
Enquiries into bottle-neck industries – by prodn Dpts., so that
M/L. can retain impartiality in event of wages disputes.
Two P.Q.’s Thursday by R.A.B. Want to announce the 30 rule.
H.M.
Last Cab. discn showed not prepd to enforce controls vigorously
over whole field. Regret we didn’t at the start grip these as
other econ. controls.
Cab. preferred – go on as we are. But becomg. known widely tht.
enforcement is not being made. Rot will spread – whole thing
will crumble away.
Proposed therefore a) E.W.O. b) Over 30’s to go at choice
c) …….. as in short brief.
Positive line is much better than drift.
Bottle-neck industries. Co-opn of Prodn Dpts. is needed.
Publicity campaign – endorse that because public don’t know why
needed. I will confer with Ministers concerned if this is agreed.
T.W.
“others” in 4 & 5 on p.1. – want it clear that this includes agriculture.
Agric. doesn’t benefit by E.W.O. Advts. attractg. men from agric.
No objn on this understanding.
C.E.
Prison Service. Will be short w’out means of directg. men & women
over 30.
A.V.A.
Shipbldg. We shall lose by relaxn. Thereafter depends on E.W.O.(2)
Cd. we be sure that “sympathy” wd. modify acc. to circs.
G.A.I.
Agreed.
B.S.
Want control reserved for seed-crushing etc.
But announce reservn to “selected indies & you brand them as
unpleasant or underpaid. Endorse therefore suggn for enquiries
into condns. But you’ll get the re-action at once.
E.Sh.
No objn to E.W.O.(1): going on always.
But on (2). Mining. Volunteers who entered durg. war are anxious to
351
}
} Agreed.
}
}
leave – many do now on med. certs. Decided to tighten that up.
Now you propose “sympathy”. Large no applns will be made &
diff. to resist. That will create too much trouble for us. I’m not
prepd to accept this proposal.
Further, this will create invidious distinction – by holdg. people in
selected industries. Effect: labour-force declining. Tho’ recent
rise in intake of boys particularly.
On (5). Is this any relaxation – thro’ Exchanges?
Must face the risk if Cabinet insists.
A.B.
Controls operate more effectively than G.A.I. & H.M. imagine.
Many askg. for exemption – implies tht. they believe it is in force.
Don’t be in a hurry, when benefits fr. dirn over next 3 months. Demob.
men will go to exchanges & be told where to go.
Still enough sanction behind the controls to give us some benefit.
War-time controls are not killed, they wither away. Atmosphere not
yet gone.
Endorsed argument re invidious distinctions. Wd. reverse present
tendency to raise status of mining.
Delay.
G.A.I.
Delayed too long already. Black-market in labour now.
On (5) – can do much by persuasion if we can get the men to the
Exchange.
E.B.
Also transfers prosn fr. man to employer.
G.A.I.
“Invidious” argument. Doesn’t apply to bldg.
H.M.
Cd. cure it a bit in publicity campaign.
G.A.I.
Will consider also, on E.Sh. point under (2), value in the other
industry. Key men.
Situation shipping – Exchanges coming into disrepute – shall soon
lose the whole thing.
H.D.
These problems will solve themselves when demobn speeded up.
E.B.
Not true. Re-distribution will remain a problem.
If demob. much faster, we shd. have large-scale unemployment.
H.D.
Nevertheless a transitional problem.
Two points a) Must retain firm control over Civil Service – mainly
over 30. Assume that is safeguarded under E.W.O.(1).
b) Paras. 5-6 on p.2. Caution re wages. Ty. shd. be kept in
touch, so as to see where we are getting on relativities.
G.A.I.
Not so much wages as conditions.
G.B.
Once you operate this scheme it will operate diffly. All Ministers askg.
352
for special incln of their industries. Must be on broad lines – all
in or all out.
(2) What is “emplt. of value”. Anyone can prove his job is such.
There’ll be chaos.
Recommend extension of prosecutions – of employers.
Scarcity of labour – and unemploymt. simultaneously.
Collapsing because prosecute worker not boss.
Retain controls & accelerate build-up of labour force – for bldg.
E.B.
E.Sh.
Choice – drastic or not at all.
D. day system: designate whole industry, linked up with Class B.,
for one year only. Can’t retain controls for ever.
Vice “sympathy” use designation. E.g. designate “mining” etc., on
grds. of it’s national importance. But employer must then take
the man on.
Don’t believe publicity will do it. Need to face the public with a list
of designated industries. Show we know what we want. Not a
large no. Not just “housing” but all the processes etc., requd to
build up to it. And announce it.
Need for planned labour economy. I would face control & dirn of
labour for such a scheme.
We put in our requirements for man-power on such a basis.
But if we adopt E.B.’s method & designate all the processes for
mining, agric., housing etc., - then you’ve touched so large
a propn of the total labour that you must control the lot - &
enforce the control.
Need also for plan re exports. Too much emphasis on exports, not
enough on home consumption.
x/ Delay decision on controls until we have such a plan.
G.T.
Repeated x/.
There is still some value in controls. They do have some effect still.
If you designate, 65 industries must be designated for bldg.
This loss of grip was inevitable as 56 days leave for Class A made
it impossible for Exchanges to work. Men still in industry
believe they are subject to control.
R.S.C.
11/2 m. short: & no decn where that shortage is to fall.
Form of labour control – not tempy because we shall be short of
labour for years if we are to do what we want.
Short-term – e.g. (4) in memo. won’t do. Every Minister will add
to these industries. Because of over-all shortage, everything will
come under (4).
Plan is being prepd . Need = hold posn until we have sensible means
of directg. distn. Believe somethg. on G.A.I.’s memo. = best
in sight. But (4) won’t do: unless limited e.g. to mining &
bldg.
H.M.
No need to make statement this week.
353
x/ Cd. E.B. & G.A.I. together, with offls. (incldg. mine), go thro’ the
memo. & bring it up again.
G.A.I.
V. well. But must have a policy supported by Cabinet.
Agreed at x/.
[Exit B. Smith
4.
Housing. Progress Report.
A.B.
This is our part of the plan.
Para. 2 figures - split into propns not finally fixed. As betwn.
traditional & perm. prefab. this isn’t fixed.
Accepted tenders – figure has risen since.
At present more concerned to get even spread over whole country.
G.B.
In Scotland too, its distribution not totals.
Tenders in fr. all areas.
Delay = temp. house. Only 228 completed to date. That = greatest
bugbear.
Resist statg. numerical p’mme. Experience of 1919 etc.
1922 maximum 18% of bldg. labour force on bldg. houses.
Cost: remember last time. This will be our Achilles’ heel. Need for
much more drastic powers.
5.
Repatriation of Poles.
E.B.
This has become pol. game. Moscow-sponsored group in P.P.G.
don’t seem to want them back – at any rate in nos.
W.S.C.’s pledge has made pol. division in Pol. Army. Propose
“contracting out” – i.e. those who don’t want to go fall out.
My evce = o.r. do want to return.
If they don’t go soon, they’ll be prejudiced for ever – as land from
break-up of estates is now being allocated.
Give me some ships & I can then negotiate with P.P.G. re reception.
H.D.
Most desirable from Ty. angle.
Once it starts, it will flow.
H.M.
Cabinet agrees to 1 and 2 in brief.
Boils down to shipping. What can M/W.T. do?
G.Strauss.
Some expected troop movements delayed – ship available 2/3.000 a
time from next month to Gdynia Cd. lift the lot in 3 months.
Subject to Admy. clearance on safety.
J.J.L.
Effect on Canadian lift?
G.S.
No.
6.
Agreed.
Tourist Traffic from U.S.A.
354
E.B.
To counter isolationism in M/West and Universities. To earn
dollars too.
Believe Universities will play. Want help from M/S. and M/L.
on hostels.
B/T.
Supported.
A.B.
If “hostels” includes mine - & in any event resist use for this purpose
of hostels which cd. be used for housing. When I am takg.
householder’s spare rooms.
E.B.
Some are in places where no housing shortage. Will consult Health
Dpts. on that.
H.M.
x/ General blessing: let D.O.T. convene Junior Ministers to consider
scheme & report if any diffies.
E.W.
Vacation courses in Universities – also in schools in connn with
traing. of teachers.
Deprecate pushg. our people out in favour of Americans.
E.B.
No intentn to use anything but spare accommn.
G.T.
Competing claims already to hostels. Might use some outliers.
Cab. recogn. already priorities.
G.Strauss.
Shipping also – because congestion on westward. e.g. 100.000 brides!
Agreed – as at x/.
[Exit Buchanan
Strauss.
7.
Spanish “Prisoners of War” in U.K.
J.J.L.
As in memo.
C.E.
Brought here by W.O. w’out consultn & w’out regard to our
immigrn policy.
Wdn’t have bn. allowed in as civilians. Many have wives etc.,
in France.
Wd. have to stipulate v. re-union.
They have no claim on us. Why add to our undesirable foreign propn.
H.M.
Why not take them back?
E.Sh.
Only 220. Why not keep them?
H.M.
Wives are in France – why not there?
E.B.
I can’t isolate these – because sp. refugees in Gib. whom I’ve bn.
trying to move to Mexico or Venezuela.
355
Postpone & make another shot at French when they have a Govt.
Want guarantee fr. France tht. they won’t put them into Spain.
Might send at least those with families.
Law apparently precludes restn or condn on release. [Enter Whiteley.
x/ Cdn’t we take such powers, even temporarily?
Cd. get some value for money if we had parole system.
A.B.
Did they fight in Spain? Members of international brigade?
Kept in camps in France - & easily accessible to Germans.
Shdn’t therefore treat them as scum.
H.M.
Adjourn 2 weeks F.O. to approach French } Agreed.
H.O. to consider x/.
}
G.A.I.
Emplt. of Ital. p.o.w. on wages. Shdn’t be prejudiced by releasing
these first.
8.
Parliament: Re-building of H/Commons.
H.M.
P.Q. by Maxton – askg. wtr. we wd. choose another site.
Cab. wdn’t. want to change – agreed.
This cramps what you can do.
Chamber – suggn of larger room. New members don’t realise
arguments – a) often empty b) temps. of crowded House.
Newspp. suggest more disposn to reconsider than I had.
Do we stand firm?
W.W.
Many new Members have since examd plans & are better satisfied.
H.D.
Select Cttee. on condns of work. Wd. like to resist attempts to get
this raised.
But favour compuls. purchase of Bridge St. bldgs. for offices
etc., for Members. Wd. like to follow up if Cab. don’t dissent.
P.L.
Only 2 possibilities – on old site: or wider. Sup Cttee. examd &
favoured old size.
Also gt. upset to reverse this now.
356
22nd November, 1945.
C.M. 55(45).
1.
H.M.
Return of Prime Minister.
Welcomed P.M. Congratns on speeches. Success of mission.
2.
Parliament.
H.M.
Mon.
Housing components. Spkers. as arranged last week.
Tues/Wed. Finance Bill – Cttee.
Thurs.
..
..
if needed. I of M (Customs). ???????
ns
Fri.
L.G. (Fin. Prov ).
Vote of Censure. Long warning – Sat. to oppn: Mon. to Press: copies
½ hr. in advance
V. of Censure only method for debate – v. proper. But now
seekg. to divert it to Demob. & Housing. Wrong to evade real
issue - & 2 debates already on Demob. & full day on Housing
next Mon. Two days suggd – one day enough. Propose to say
nil to-day. – until have seen terms of motion.
H.D.
Also – failure to reduce expenditure – plenty of chances on Budget &
Finance Bill.
P.M.
Agreed.
A.G.
Omnibus censure is unconstitutional.
H.M.
Eisenhower – point behind it, as in earlier Minute.
Dinner, either by Govt. or by Speaker. Latter preferable. Repve Peers
& one or two leaders of other Parties. Wd. preclude any suggn
of discourtesy.
P.M.
People forget Alex. also S.A.C. Prefer H/C. dinner – in Speaker’s
House, or at least Speaker in Chair.
Agreed: L.P. to investigate & reprt to P.M.
P.M.
To-day: will speak only on Washington visit. Will say E.B. spkg.
to-morrow - & other speakers will be free to range wider.
[Exit Whiteley.
3.
Greece.
E.B.
King of Greece, on newspp. rpt., wrote to me suggesting I had offered
a loan on condn plebiscite p’poned 3 yrs. No truth in this.
P’ponemt. raised by Regent in Ldn. I declined because thght.
inconsistent with understandgs. reached with W.S.C. & Eden.
Elections: my decln at L. Party Conf. quite consistent with Cab.
decisions. I put Elect. first and pleb. after, when tranquil.
votd. Mtg. of EAM. etc., put pleb. first durg. uncertainty,
357
I was told, no stable Govt. Consulted U.S., France & all
agreed electns shd. come first.
Diffy - King as pol. leader vice constitutional monarch. Similar
trouble threatening in Belgium. Policy: get Govts. establd
& let the monarch ques. be settled thereafter domestically.
Durg. McNeil’s visit – they raised again ques. of p’ponemt. I sent
back stiff reply to effect tht. this wasn’t purpose of his mission.
Want Dodcanese transfer settled. Get away from political aspect.
Under pressure laid down a programme – Election in March:
calculated how long thereafter condns wd. be ready for pleb.
& suggested March 1948.
Then story in newspaper – and letter from K/Greece. Reply was to
have gone this a.m. But now he has issued statement to Press
w’out awaitg. my reply.
Now propose to publish to-day my reply to King: & will make
statemt. H/C. Friday.
If he does return to Greece, there will be civil war.
Told F.O. to see he gets no travel facilities.
Hope Cabinet will support my policy re Greece.
My view is: can’t hold a pleb. at a time when registers etc., are
notoriously incomplete.
R.S.C.
If King gets back & starts Civil War, what attitude will our troops
take.
E.B.
Keep order.
H.M. and
others.
We ought to stop him going.
4.
P.M.
P.M.’s Mission to Washington.
Met Truman & Byrnes. Yacht on Potomac. I opened on our line:
others agreed.
ies
Diff in getting agreed draft. Little time to consult Cabinet. Points
raised didn’t go to substance – wh. is tht. this can be handled
only gradually by creating confidence. Don’t want it restricted
to a-bomb only. Want it brought to U.N.O. - & think it will be.
Satisf. discns re continued co-opn with U.S. & Canada – no diffies
x/
expected over industrial use. Got beyond Quebec Agreement.
Not ques. disclosure of formula. Ques. of visits to plant to get
acquainted with “know-how”.
Satif. agreemts. re continuing co-opn betwn. Staffs re strategy &
weapons.
Document on this with M. Wilson.
Avoided getting involved in other matters procg. such, e.g. as
Financial Talks, Palestine.
Palestine statement well recd in U.S.
Canada v. co-operative: afraid we were cutting out all imports fr.
358
Canada because of dollars. Gave & announced helpful formula.
E.B.
On x/ above: is it clear there is no handicap?
H.D.
Binding agreement in writing. Is there a signed revocation of that?
P.M.
I have a document signed by Truman: doesn’t in terms revoke
Quebec Agr. Will show it to H.D. Also detailed agreement
negotiated by J.A.
Statement (will be shared with all nations) applies to industrial also.
E.Sh.
Do we share discoveries here with them - & is this reciprocal.
E.W.
U.N.E.S.C.O. concerned re formn of Cttee for exchange of
scientific informn under U.N.O. Don’t want ad hoc bodies
for each subject.
P.M.
This wdn’t get across educational lines.
E.W.
U.N.E.S.C.O. goes beyond education – genl. exchange of scientific
informn. Recognise mil. use if separate.
P.M.
The commn is only to frame recommns.
R.S.C.
We shdn’t welcome gettg. this into UNESCO field. Too important –
both industrially as well as militarily.
J.
Reaction from Russia?
E.B.
None officially.
A.
Relation to veto.
P.M.
Depends wtr. it goes to UNO itself or Sec. Council. I wd. prefer
former.
E.Sh.
Will you refer to-day to release fr. Queb. Agr.
P.M.
Only “we arranged for future co-operation.”
R.S.C.
? Say Followg. talks with T. I’m now able to say there is no ques. of
our liberty to use this for industrial purposes at any time.
P.M.
Yes.
3.
C.E.
Greece (contd).
Verified we have no power to hold – save on crim. charge.
H.O. are examining, however, means of hindering him.
359
S.
We have taken steps to ensure he uses none of our facilities.
H.D.
Put similar stop on civil aviation.
5.
Agreed.
Investment (Control and Guarantees) Bill.
H.D.
Explained provns of Bill.
Cl. 2. Raised to £50 m. Believe this will be enough, in addition to
existg. powers.
Included no provn for Cap. Issues Cttee etc. These shd. be nonstatutory.
The memo. will be prefixed – in some way merging with normal
Explanatory Memo. – certainly won’t be White Paper.
Nat. Inv. Council – flexible. Don’t want fixed number. This body
will be useful in limited field helping Govt. to plan expendre.
But don’t want it to have executive powers. Changed my mind as
from Nat. Investmt. Bd. phase of Labour thought – at that time
Govt. was takg. no responsibility for planning. Now that we do,
we can’t delegate our powers & duties to a Bd.
P.M.
Presentation. If it comes out alone, may look mouse. Small in itself.
It shd. be put across as part of genl. picture.
H.M.
Dilemma. Workg. out machinery for econ. planning. Hope in due
course to publish story on this. But can’t talk about that now.
Driven therefore to concln tht. we shd. present this as no more
than it is.
H.D.
Can’t wait. Some leak, e.g. re name of Council – has alarmed
industrialists.
E.B.
Nat. Inv. Bd. – invented by Macmillan Cttee. But then Govt. wouldn’t
look at any direct intervention. That was why Cttee’s recommn
took that form. Agree don’t want it now we’ve taken pol. control
of B/E.
But don’t regard this as a small measure. V. important powers.
R.S.C.
Can’t help bringing things on piecemeal. Agree in time compreh. W.
paper on economic planning.
Hope the council will be closely linked with C.S.O. & Econ. Section.
H.M.
Add to para. 6. references to Chairmen of 2 Industrial Corpns?
H.D.
Want to keep it flexible.
A.B.
a)
This is v. important Bill. There will be big pol. come-back
soon – v. our invasion of financial interests. Bldg-societies:
Lomb. St.: transport all threatened to date. We shd. be ready to
meet criticism – especially by counter-propaganda to mobilise
360
b)
our public opinion.
Two Industrial Corpns. I criticised in H/C. at the time. Do you
need them now?
H.D.
Wait and see. There’s money there & they are working. Don’t stop
things wh. are doing good. Co-relate them later. Discuss on
N.I. Council.
A.
On a) above. This is biggest Bill presented to Parlt. by this Govt.
c.f. Cl. 1(a). will cause misgivings among all potential investors.
Most important to be ready with propaganda.
H.D.
We shall publish the Preps. simultaneously.
Press Conference on day on introduction.
H.M.
Transp. House will do parallel education propaganda.
J.
Drew attentn to excessive severity of enforcemt. provns. Notice: will
raise on Leg. Cttee.
P.M.
Guarantee. Is it wide enough? Prefer “maintaing. high & stable level
of emplt”.
H.D.
No: want it open & flexible. B/T. wd. advise on field & condns.
Industry as a whole, not individual form. Want the power,
not words.
R.S.C.
Shd. you cover “services” as well as “industries”.
E.Sh.
Proviso to Cl. 1(1) covers wide field: Bill not therefore so
terrifyingly sweeping.
H.D.
Cl. 4(3) of B/E. Bill enables us to give directions to Banks.
A.V.A.
Evasion thro’ banks increasg. loans to such cos. as Bank
Nominees Ltd?
H.D.
Can be covered by B/E. Bill powers.
E.Sh.
Must have some freedom: not yet ready to control all financial opns.
On propaganda. However weak Oppn may be in H/C., there are
gt. forces in the country & power of Press. Need for careful
explann of these Bills & relatg. them to individual & domestic
programme of Govt. Hope P.M. will enquire & see tht. our
propaganda machine is effective.
R.S.C.
B.B.C. – not yet solved. Becoming convinced tht. we must use the
B.B.C. to explain our programme.
H.M.
Party organisation is ready to function.
361
My point: this Bill is capable of being represented as purely negative.
That is the angle wh. we must stress – not measure to stop
things but to make right things happen.
A.V.A.
Also prevent exploitation of small investor.
Agreed: approve Bill
Legn Cttee to settle details.
Propaganda to be well organised.
6.
Canadian Citizenship Bill.
C.E.
Better for conference to come fr. action of a Dom. rather than our
initiative only.
A.
We agree. We want to see it developed on Canad. lines.
Para. 10. We think Eire shd. be asked.
Conference might be held in Canada. Then Eire more likely to
come in: they have a good man there.
S. Rhodesia & Newf. needn’t be invited yet.
J.
Agreed.
R.S.C.
Important for Trade Treaties.
E.W.
Women’s organisations wd. be phased.
Agreed.
362
27th November, 1945.
C.M. 56(45).
1.
Admiralty New Construction.
A.V.A.
£3 m. vice £10 m. Comparison.
P.M.
Drew attention to para. 2(b). V. important.
H.M.
Remember level of emplt.
H.D.
Discussg. followg. Defence Cttee.
P.M.
Remit paras 5-14 to Defence Cttee. Approve para. 4.
A.B.
Cd. we have compar. figures for naval bldg. in other countries?
A.V.A.
It wd. be U.S. only. We get no informn re Russia.
A.B.
There is talk of R. bldg.
[Exit C.N.S.
2.
Agreed: Try to get this informn.
Parliament. Questions re Disposal of German Fleet.
A.V.A.
3 P.Q.’s for Wed. Potsdam: R. demand for full 1/3rd. Accepted
at end 10 only for each for experiment. Now being distd: rest
to be sunk. Joint statement – R. won’t agree until they’ve got
delivery – for fear G. crews wd. sabotage. But leaked: pressure
to know why balance of 120 subs. are to be sunk. Can’t say
we wd. otherwise have no guarantee tht. other countries wd.
scrap.
E.B.
No other poss. of removing suspicion at Potsdam – as to what we
intended to do with the rest. Political decision: we must stand
to it.
H.D.
B. interest tht. there shd. be no subs.
E.B.
Wd. prefer to say – Agreemt. at P. for disposal of G. Fleet & merchant
x/ marine: also agreed [no statement until] joint decln by Powers.
when agreemt. carried out.
Will then make a statement.
A.V.A.
Total tonnage less than 70.000 for scrap – fleabite cpd. with what is
available.
Have asked M.P.’s to w’draw.
Agreed: withdraw if possible
If not answer shortly as at x/. Final draft to be
agreed with F.O.
3.
India
363
P.L.
After draft sent to Viceroy, riots in Calcutta & Bombay occurred.
His comments derive mainly from that. Handed in new draft
designed to meet Viceroy’s point – re-arranged order in the main.
Begin with reference to riots: but don’t go on with law & order
as suggd by Viceroy – don’t want it to be too much a law & order
statement: put that therefore at the end.
Delegation. I. & B. Cttee thght. invitn wd. be issued by Empire Parly.
Assocn. But India section of it is in suspense pendg. elections:
& invitn can’t be issued from India. Arrangemts must therefore
be made from here; and we must carry whole cost.
Timing. Favour earliest possible date for announcemt. Suggest
Thurs. 29/11. By me in H/Lds. By whom in H/C?
P.M.
Need for care. Likely to provoke demand for day’s debate on India.
Then shall have to define our posn.
In 1942 Indian leaders were anti. J. Now they glorify those who went
over to J. Why did G/India stage these trials in India at time of
elections. Trouble with C. Serv. Govt. = doesn’t put its case
over. Continuing agitn will produce v. serious sitn in say March.
Fear G/India drifting into diffies without clear idea what they
will do.
Parly. Delegn good idea – but doubtfully wise to send them out during
Elections where no Indian M.P.’s. Useful to us prs. but not to
India.
Need for law & order – firm line.
H.M.
Agreed. Statement must be made.
First 4 lines suggest riots caused by U.S. S-statement.
Weakness of G/India. Don’t get case across. Change of Govt. here:
wish I.O. and Viceroy cd. get into posn of championing
Indian masses – even at cost of exposing treatment by Indian
capitalists. If we cd. assume that posn & get it across in India
it wd. make a gt. difference.
Leadership vice defeatism needed in I.O. & G/India.
E.B.
Coalition Govt. decided to champion Indian masses - & make attack
on social & economic grievances. Even W.S.C. agreed. No gt.
progress made by G/India.
P.L.
Many things being done – but not being effectively put across. Diff.
to do in vast country.
E.B.
But isn’t being done here. No effort to get across policy we started
in 1942.
R.S.C.
That economic policy was frustrated by I.O. and G/India
obscurantism.
P.M.
No G/India publicity even for war effort of Indian Army.
364
A.B.
E.W.
P.L.
E.W.
There are Indian T. Unionists independent of Congress. Good
material. Shd. be helped. Positive action needed to get new
approach.
This statement – beginning & ending with l. and order – will do more
harm than good. If we are getting back to re-opening commn
betwn. here & India, make this position part of the statement.
Why not get T.U. Delegation to go out.
Why not get reciprocal delegations coming here from India.
a) What will delegn do. Usually allowed to meet only “guaranteed”
Indians. We want to get independent-minded M.P.’s & let them
mix with all classes of Indians. And address mtgs. – Indians like
attendg. them.
Don’t want ordinary kind of Delegn chosen by E.P.A. Why
shdn’t Govt. select the right people.
Have told Viceroy don’t want “personally conducted” tour.
b) T.U. Delegn. Only contact with T. Unionists is Police
J.J.L.
T.U. Delegn is better suggn than Parly. Del. Tho’ I wd. do both.
Little urge for better life among masses – but beginning, due to
T.U. movemt. Need for appreciation of security risk of
“doing (? what) this”.
P.M.
Repeated warning of big trouble by March.
E.Sh.
Cause of present riots?
R.S.C.
I.N.A. trials & Indonesia. Second is havg. v. serious effects on
public feeling.
V. little public knowledge of what INA trials are.
P.L.
Riots are stimulated – no doubt inflammatory speeches. Congress
intend to attempt big trouble in March on lines of 1942 effort.
But Indian leaders are deploring present riots.
We are committed to makg. statement. Prepd this on basis of India
Cttee & P.M.’s instructions. Principle: don’t have statement on
law & order only (Viceroy) but couple it with constitl issues
& Delegn.
P.M.
New developmt. since. Viceroy foreshadows trouble & has no
remedy.
E.B.
a)
b)
c)
Statement. Insert somethg. re need for social & economic
development. Otherwise nothg. in it but politics.
War over. Cd. develop radio much more rapidly now
Also mobile cinemas.
Political advisers for Viceroy – as for e.g. Mountbatten.
365
Dening has done v. well in Indonesia. Diff. training
& outlook. Wd. proceed on basis that India is going to be
independent State – i.e. apply to India the analogy of
liberated area Govt. I.O. steeped in old traditions, can’t be
expected to do its own conversion. This was done in
S.A. – taken from C.O. & entrusted to fresh minds to frame
a constitution. Same idea followed in N. America &
Australia. Can’t expect I.O. official to do day-to-day work
& also plan for the future.
R.S.C
Supported (c).
Betwn. Cab. & Indian people a gt. block of inflexibility – includg.
Viceroy as well as I.O. Must consider: is this the man for this
job. Doubt if he shd. be asked to do it. Want also sympathetic
people as pol. advisers – divorced from day-to-day work.
E.B.
Changing existg. Indian Govt. won’t do. Need is to create something
quite new which is to take over in due course.
P.L.
Complex situation – central and provincial Govts. Indian Parties.
Trade Unions.
Can’t govern India from W’hall: wd. have to send out new men.
Statement. Delay makes diffies
a) Delegn shd. go in Xmas Recess.
b) Viceroy’s anxiety for statement on law & order.
E.B.
Vice last para. promise further statemt. on our developing policy in
India.
R.S.C.
Limit this to P. Delegn with a little on l. & order.
P.M.
Stress (p.2) sentence at bottom of p.2.
A.B.
Re-draft to stress positive elements – P. & T.U. Delegns: social &
economic: & subordinate the l. & o. pts. to that.
E.B.
If my (c) above is appd: we cd. keep it secret: but ask Parly Delegn
to study it. Might be better recd if recommd by them not initiated
by B. Govt.
E.Sh.
Be practical. Suppose W. resigns. Prs. it might cause even more
trouble.
If you are going to disturb continuity, you must know what you
mean exactly & wtr. you can do it. What do you mean by
“social & economic development” and how do you get Indians
to recognise it.
If you can avoid trouble, use any language to do it. But if you can’t
be sure of avoiding it, keep your powder dry. That’s why I asked
the cause. If it’s post-war unrest, how will you handle it? What
will Delegns do? Most practical suggn so far = P.M.’s point
366
re expressg. gratitude for Indian Army.
H.M.
Support R.S.C. & E.B.’s (c).
Agree: Govern or get out. Be firm on l. & o.
Let the trouble be between masses & Indian capitalists vice Indians
v. B. Govt.
Need for acute pol. leadership at the top with a left outlook.
P.M.
I & B. Cttee to consider how you get policy across to Indian peasants.
Let I. & B. Cttee consider statement in light of points in
discussion.
4.
A.
Migration.
As in memo. M/L. will be worked in: & they are interested in
preventg. Australia from picking the eyes out of our industry.
5.
Newfoundland.
A.
As in memo.
A.B.
Need statement contain penultimate para.? V. negative attitude.
A.
Preceding para. is positive.
P.M.
Object = hint at union with Canada.
A.B.
But are we agreed on that?
A.
Maritime Provinces – social services etc., better than anything N. cd.
provide on her own.
This is real reason for para.
E.Sh.
Is it necessary? T of r presuppose it. Third para. introduces same
thought.
Bears on whole ques. of Commonwealth policy. I don’t agree to
N. joining C. until I know better what C.’s future is.
H.D.
Thought Cab. were agreed tht. ultimate union with C. wd. be best.
Want therefore to include the hint.
P.M.
A.
Quoted (c) in earlier Minute.
x/ As diffces of opinion, see no reason why we shd. not omit [ ] in
penult. para. & omit “on this a/c” at end .
Agree. Ready to let events take their course re union with Canada.
Agreed: subject to x/.
6.
Palestine Renegades.
367
G.H.
As in memo.
H.M.
Mufti was now B.s.
A.V.A.
Contrast will be drawn between this policy & India’s.
H.D.
Generally against these trials.
J.
Need there be any publicity?
R.S.C.
Someone will find out & ask a P.Q.
Agreed.
7.
C.E.
Procedure: Times of Cabinet Meetings.
Times of Cab. mtgs. Conflict with H/C. Standing Cttees.
368
29th November, 1945.
C.M. 57(45).
1.
Parliament.
H.M.
Vote of Censure – muddled, but it is a V. of C. Can’t deny facilities.
Bias for 1 day because finance, oppies on Budget = demobn,
a day already & Address: housing, ditto. & wide debate on
recent Bill.
Ch. Whip wants legn by 11.12 because H/Lds. Opposn cd. stop that
if annoyed over V. of C.
P.M.
If 2 days given they won’t press for day on Palestine.
H.M.
Our people want to discuss Pal. – better done before Xmas.
P.M.
Precedents favour 2 days.
W.W.
Opposn promise give no legn by 11/12 if 2 days given for this.
Our supporters want to speak – 5 maidens already – give them the
chance, wh. they wdn’t get in 1 day.
H.M.
Precedent: want to break that.
A.B.
a)
W.W.
3 wd. be enough.
A.B.
b)
A.
If by that you can get legn to H/L by 11/12 it’s worth it. Trouble if
we’re pushed too late.
Then 4 Front Bench speeches.
The V. of C. is against Electorate not Govt. 2 days is too much.
P.M.
Balance in favour of 2 days, makg. it clear tht. it’s no precedent for
x/ future. Wd. gain time in the end.
Agreed: as at x/. Next week.
Mon/Tues. Cttee – Building & Elections & Jurors.
Wed/Thurs. V. of C.
Friday.
Rpt & 3rd Rdg. Bldg & E & J.
Speakers in V of C. 1.
3.
2.
P.M., H.M. & R.S.C.
H.M.
Secret Sessions. Was agreed to lift the ban. Opposn now doubtful
& ask whose initiative.
Garbled accounts: Chair can’t remember what was said.
Can’t understand their attitude. They now say premature &
responsibility on Govt.
P.M.
Go ahead. House authies want it.
369
Agreed.
H.M.
Bretton Woods. Bill itself = simple. If therefore agreemt. with
Chair & Oppn, broad debate on Finance, Comm. Policy and
B. Woods. 2 days.
P.M.
Is Bill necessary. ?Resolution in first instance.
H.M.
Ty. satisfied there must be Bill.
Genl. debate: then get Bill thro’ on the nod.
H.D.
Our ratification must be by Act/Parlt.
Shall need 2 days. Genl. debate & arrangemt. that simple Bill will
go thro’ with v. little Debate, prs. sitting late on 2nd day.
P.L.
Will have to pass H/Lds also, before 31/12.
2.
[Exit Whiteley.
Times of Cabinet.
P.M.
Not afternoons. Thursday mtg. essential. Must therefore be early
because Standing Cttees.
Second day – Tuesday is best.
Points to mtg. at 9 or 9.15.
R.S.C.
Early mtgs awkward – because daily mtgs with Dept.
H.D.
Wed. a.m. Get Party mtgs reduced. More interest now in Groups.
H.M.
Moment not ripe. You wd. have to have at least fortnightly mtgs.
Wd. support 9.15.
P.M.
Leave Weds. pro. tem.
Monday at 11 a.m.?
H.M.
Thursday at 9.45 or 10.?
Mondays: 11. a.m.
Thursdays 10. a.m.
3.
H.D.
Financial and Commercial Policy.
Consultns procdg. V. difficult. Legal points.
May boil up quickly at any minute.
Paper shows best we can do. Cab. must decide wtr. it is good
enough or wtr they wd. prefer to break.
a) U.S. may stick at 4. Good chance, however, of 41/2. L.L. 750 m.
rather than 500 m. to wh. we earlier thght. we cd. reduce it.
b) 2 II. is last minute suggn of U.S. Had thght. U.S. wished to see
easemt. in Sterling area. They fear however tht. w’out 2 II
Congress might say loan is to bail out Sterling area.
My advisers believe tht. it wdn’t in fact make any diff. to our opn –
tho’ diff. to explain in H/C. Advise therefore try to omit but
accept if necessary.
370
c) Waiver. Doubtful wtr. U.S. will accept. 4 I. wd. be pretty
satisfactory. We have eliminated U.S. claims to audit our
reserves & criticise our dom economy.
E.Sh.
“Home-produced exports.” Excludes shippg. freights & oil fr. M/East.
R.S.C.
Doesn’t matter because comparative with 36/1938. If out then, out
now.
This is a v. good formula, if we can get it.
A.
Concluding words of 4 II. New?
H.D.
Yes. Better form than U.S. previous.
H.M.
Better without the concludg. words.
R.S.C.
No: the more we can take into a/c, the better, in deciding what we pay.
H.M.
But wd. let them argue we shd. pay them quick as others.
E.B.
Thought it favoured us.
General agreement this is in our favour.
H.D.
d)
Sterling area. U.S. pressing us to complete in one year - & deny us
the benefit of 5 yr. transition period of B. Woods. This formula
is more roomy- “make arrangemts.” by end/46 …. current
earnings. Smaller part of problem. The larger part is the capital
indebtedness, accumulated balances. And that, under 6 II, has
no fixed time limit: vid (c).
E.Sh.
This throws open U.S. market to these sterling areas. U.S. will use
this to hamstring our export trade.
H.D.
Don’t assume Sterling area arrangemts. wd. continue if this broke
down.
S. Africa for example wants to get into U.S. markets.
Can’t hold Sterling area unless we remove temptn to go into closer
relations with U.S.
R.S.C.
Inconvertibility is not foundn of sterling area – that is war-time incident.
Vitality of the area depends on convertibility of sterling.
P.L.
This is not agreed document. It is proposal for submn to U.S.
6 I formula hasn’t bn. put to K. He & Mission take view tht. we are
pledged to go further. Viz., to release by end/46 on 6 I. Agree
therefore to try this formula: but wd. be mistake to break on this
minor point. Ty. shd. have latitude to close with something less
favourable on 6 I.
P.M.
We must decide our sticking point.
371
A.B.
What about Aust. & N.Z.?
A.
Not so awkward as S. Afr. But they are uneasy about the Sterling area.
A.
6 III shd. follow 6 I. It comes into opn then.
R.S.C.
}
}
No: not until stored sterling also made convertible. }
G.H.
Sterl. balances in Colonies – will they be affected. Will these be
written down?
H.D.
Yes: but by negotiation.
P.M.
x/ Is it wise to mention “written off”. “Adjustment” or some such
phrase wd. be better.
R.S.C.
All covered by “voluntary agreement”.
E.Sh.
If you look to bilateral arrangemts with Sterling countries, will they
agree if they know this provides for convertibility to dollars.
H.D.
Promised to consider working as at x/.
H.D.
e) 7 I. Have avoided any hindrances to exch. restn to prevent cap.
movemts. – viz. this relates only to current transactions. This
is acceptable.
E.Sh.
Does this mean we shan’t be impowered to import U.S. goods.
R.S.C.
No: doesn’t deal with that. It will prevent blocking Sterling earned
here by U.S. films, save under general provns of B. Wood.
E.W.
Cd. it be evaded – e.g. by excessive salaries for U.S. citizens working
here.
R.S.C.
Cdn’t do anything substantial on those lines.
R.S.C.
f)
7 II is difficult. Under Trade Agreemt. (wh. hasn’t bn. substantially
altered since it came to Cabinet) …… 7 II won’t apply
generally under that but specially as betwn. us and U.S. It is
special additional restn. Quoted. This means e.g. if we want to
stop U.S. cars we must stop all cars. Mght. lead to this diffy.
Supposg. we wanted import P. milk & hadn’t dollars & wanted
to get if fr. N.Z., we shdn’t be able to restrict its import fr. U.S.
Answer: in non-discrimy regs. in section C. You can take into
a/c normal channels of pre-existing trade – e.g. you can reject
the spot-lot w’out “discrimination”. Need therefore to get it
clear tht. this phrase “does not discriminate” means the same as
non-discrimination under Trade Agreement. Propose to do this
372
by exchange of notes.
H.M.
Thought B. Woods over-rode any prev. arrangemt. inconsistent
therewith. Better to rely on that?
R.S.C.
7 II is outside context of B. Woods. Wdn’t work.
G.H.
W. Afr. Produce Bd. purchasing fr. W. Africa.
R.S.C.
P.12. Sect. E. para. 1. Long-term arrangement cd. be prayed in aid.
G.H.
Trade may be sometimes on basis not commercial. Leads into
Pref. ques.
P.M.
Shall we go ahead or break off.
E.Sh.
More convinced than ever that I was right in entering my caveat.
Ball not wholly at U.S. feet. They have to get rid of products –
if they can’t they’ll face serious industrial crisis. If they were
Socialist country they cd. do w’out exports. But they aren’t.
We, as creditors, never sought to hamstring trade & currency of our
debtors.
We shd. stand on one leg. We must have resources. U.S. can find
them. Then on what terms? This offer = 2% & condns. I wd.
rather borrow at up to 5% than accept these condns. Don’t
believe planned economy in U.K. is compatible with these
agreemts. The Finance Agreemt. bad enough – designed
enable U.S. to get strangle-hold on trade of the world. B. Woods
wd. be acceptable with a satisf. Trade Agreemt.
Only had this memo. this a.m. We shdn’t have foisted on us a
document of this importance w’out sufft. opportunity of considg.
its effects on our Dpl. policy. Concerned re oil & oil equipment
(wh. we largely export). Same must apply to other Dpts. Suggest
each Dpt. shd. examine effects on its policy
P.M.’s section – effect on our internal economy.
Suppose we decide not to accept, what wd. it mean? U.S. wd. be
unable to export its surplus. Re-action in M/West – with
effect on Congress & U.S. public opinion.
Believe this will be fatal to prospects of planned economy.
Finally, political effect – puttg. ourselves in pawn to U.S. for years.
Internal matters like housing mght. affect publ. mind less than
this.
P.M.
Ec. Sect. have examd & are in agreemt.
Was discussed here – genl. issue – before. Nothg. new here rushed
on Cab.
Comm. Policy circd days ago.
Can’t have these matters examd Deplly.
E.B.
Reached pt. for unpleasant decn.
373
Have eliminated most of pts. wh. were specially inimical to planned
economy.
Faced idea of loan at higher rate. On facts decided we cdn’t do that.
Over 2 m. a year, beginning now.
We don’t have to take up this credit unless we find it necessary.
This = overdraft . Don’t run off and take it all. w’out trying
hardest to reduce need.
Problem: beginning European trade. Can’t get it going w’out dollars.
E.g. Yugoslavia – amount we can do ourselves is v. small.
Hungary - real chance there of getting behind the curtain.
Resisted this sort of bargain as long as I cd. Now satisfied we must
settle.
A.B.
Diff. to establ. relationship betwn. Fin. & Comm. agreement.
Share view expd by E.Sh.
U.S. pursuing policy of grab.
Our relation with U.S. poisoned by this approach. Suppliant. Will
be emphasised during discn in Congress.
Their need for exports is greater than ours for money
P.M.
But it’s only 5%.
A.B.
They need to build it up – to export their unemplt. And its localised.
If we refused, what wd. be effect in U.S.? Electric. G.B. back in the
lead.
A new start in our commercial relations.
Buying short-term relief in exchange for long-term diffies.
Want to be recorded as dissenting if decision taken to-day. Wd.
prefer not to have it decided to-day & put in memo. of views.
H.M.
Don’t believe this is a clever U.S. plot.
What is position? We want dollars. L.P. Cttee constantly refuses
projects for lack of dollars. W’out them we are in for period of
austerity such as we haven’t yet faced.
Believe U.S. genuinely anxious to get internatl trade right. E.Sh.
seems to want planned economy at home in an anarchical
world.
Don’t like rush. But postponement may give us worse choice.
P.L.
E.Sh. assumes we cd. get loan at higher rate w’out strings.
In fact K. has said they wdn’t give it.
Choice is this – or face hostile U.S. & no dollars.
Favour accepting this: indeed giving latitude to give a bit more to
get it.
V. unlikely that, if we rejected, U.S. wd. come to heel.
H.D.
Advantage of this, as cpd. with a break, wd. be enormous.
Austerity of doing w’out this wd. wreck this Govt. Initial cheers,
then blame for all the consequences wd. be assigned to
incompetence of Labour Govt.
374
R.S.C.
P.M.
Trade Agreemt. only hope of getting order in internat. trade.
We have excluded everythg. we opposed: & secured incln of
all we asked for.
Wd. commend this even if there were no Financial Agreemt.
{
{
Generally agreed.
Latitude to C/Exch. on point raised by P.L.
E.Sh.
I can’t accept this.
A.V.A.}
J.
}
Don’t like this, but
A.B.
We shall have to face consequences.
375
3rd December, 1945.
C.M. 58(45).
1.
Financial Talks. Bretton Woods.
H.D.
2 day. Debate. Critics of B. Woods cd. table amendmt. to Resolution.
P.M.
Bill wd. be un-amendable.
H.D.
Yes. All Debate on Resolution.
H.D.
Interpve decln: wd. be instn to our Delegate – to raise after we have
become members.
H.M.
Spker asked if we can have wide debate, incldg. Bill questions.
Can’t have debate on Bill because too wide. Thus, propose
to take Debate on Resolution covering all three ques.
Then if Bill before House anticipn rule might be awkward.
Spker has agreed to waive rule, because Bill must be intd
because of time factor.
Can’t be an adjournment because legn regud.
Bill & money resoln to be attempted in the 2 days. If needed,
another ½ day.
Tues./Wed. of next week & ½ Thursday.
W.W.
Agreed.
A.
Cl. 3(2) doesn’t exclude S. Rhodesia & Newf. because not in
St. of Westminster.
Is C/E. clear on S. Rhodesia. We haven’t informed them.
Agreed: A and H.D. to confer. Prob. S. Rhodesia must be
excluded.
P.M.
General Time-table.
H.D.
Too early. Telegrams passing.
R.S.C.
Comm. policy – want my explanation given if I.T.O. first. Now looks
as tho’ U.S. will telescope. Then I cdn’t give my statement
followg. P.M.’s announcement.
P.M.
I could incorporate substance in my announcement.
Doesn’t draft go rather far, in para. 5 – of indicatg. agreemt. with
I.T.O. document.
A.B.
Danger of misunderstanding.
E.Sh.
Lever for demand for debate in H/C. Will W. Paper include the whole
of proposals.
376
A.
Doms. accept posn if this statement put out simultaneously. They
agree to our putting it out. It must come out as same
time.
Agreed.
H.D.
Progress of talks.
EEB. went out Friday. Both B. & U.S. texts now under discn.
Telegrams coming on. Must be prepd to send reply this p.m.
H.M.
Let P.M., H.D. and R.S.C. settle, unless ques. of major diffy. arises.
Agreed.
Agreed.
A.B.
H.D.
Leakages. Statement on tape – “Loan Talks”, reprtg. pt. of view of
Shinwell, Bevin on Loans, and purpose of Sir E. Bridges’ Mission.
Can only have emanated from Cabinet – Ministers or officials.
E.Sh.
Discussed with nobody but Sir D.F.
A.B.
Inaccurate: didn’t know EEB. had gone until I saw it in Press.
Doesn’t follow there has bn. leakage. My views & Shinwell’s
on U.S. loans are well known e.g. to Lobby correspondents –
from speeches in H/Commons.
Appears on tape on Mon. a.m. Cab. discn last Thursd. Both I and Sh.
away fr. Ldn.
P.M.
Need for special care re Cab. discns esp. when diffces of opinion.
A.B.
Want U.S. Press searched.
H.D.
Reason for not askg. that dissent be specially recorded.
(Exit W.W.)
2.
Sale and Purchase of Medical Practices.
A.G.
Expld discns on Social Services Cttee & with C/Exch.
H.D.
£40 m. spread over long period. Compensn only.
Superannuation – not worked out.
Agree in principle – reservg. detail.
A.B.
Agree with Ty. to separate compn fr. superannuation.
H.D.
Advantage: young doctors won’t have to borrow.
H.M.
Don’t object if Ty. agree.
Hope, however, no precedent – jumping things thro’ w’out seeing
whole plan.
A.B.
Wd. have preferred to postpone. But drs. comg. out of Forces must
know their future.
377
Agreed in principle.
A.B.
Procedure. Mtg. BMA. Cttee to-morrow a.m. & will tell them in
confidence. Wd. like to make statement in H/C. on Thursday.
R.S.C.
Awkward day. Do it in reply to P.Q.
A.B.
Can’t be sure wd. be reached. And Spkr. has said prefers statements.
But will have P.Q. put down.
{Enter Smith & Barnes. N. Baker.
3.
Food Supplies for Germany.
H.M.
Urgent – because shipping.
M/F.: undue risk to U.K. stocks to meet more of G. demand.
High-level approach (thro’ Foreign Secy.) to U.S. We are being
asked to do more than we shd. – displaced persons etc., and
fewer resources. U.S. can afford more easily to help.
Extraction rate. Human objns arguable. Main objn = reduction in feed
for livestock.
On that ground we concluded no change.
B.S.
6 m. tons shortfall on wheat year to June ’46. 20 m. against 26 m.
requiremts. 21 m. exportable surplus from America.
8.8 m. against 14 m. 5.6 deficit.
Can be met only by CFB revision of consumption of certain countries.
CFB. are reviewg. posn now.
M/W.T.
200.000 t. of wheat shipping (dollar tonnage) at Pacific ports. Can’t
use B. ships because need to lift all tht. Canada can make
available. Suggest tht., if Ty. agree to dollar tonnage, for every
ship cleared fr. Pacific I will divert to Germany a ship from
Canada to U.K. This doesn’t increase our offer – only gets it
carried.
Barnes.
Point is: cdn’t carry it w’out cuttg. into M/F. imports. This Pacific
off lift is new developmt. for avoiding that.
N.B.
For Hynd. Indispensable to get 1.6 m. tons recommd by Mission. The
wheat must come fr. somewhere. More fr. exportg. countries:
more economics in importg. countries. Includes raisg. extn rate
to 85%. Must put this to Cab. We are one of 3 – Belgium &
Denmark (other two) are ready to go to 85% if we did. We shd.
get 226.000 t. out of it.
T.W.
800.000 pigs or ….. milk wd. be lost by this redn.
N.B.
E.E.C. believe we cd. get more fr. other economies in Europe
if we adopted this. Pour encourager les autres.
If not this, then somethg. fr. our stocks. 500.000 t. = minimum
378
workg. stocks. 848.000 = present L.P. estimate for June ’46.
1.8 is present level.
Para. 8 of memo. This is most urgent sitn we are likely to have to
face. This therefore is the time for emerg. action.
B.S.
1.139.000 now – 848.000 in June ’46. By diversion of imports
we might come to 300.000.
650.000 is minimum I can accept.
P.M.
Balance of 200.000 odd.
T.W.
Cd. speed up call of wheat off farms – but wd. imbalance.
E.B.
Don’t see why shd. reduce extn rate merely to stop Fr. feedg. full
wheat to cattle.
Right rate for humans is about 80%. With our modern plants we do
better at 80% than others at 85%. More waste of bread & flour
at 85%. Anyway its bran - & goes thro’ you. Opposed to
altering it again.
I believe it is worth takg. greater risks for G. situation than M/F. want
to take – i.e. we ought to let our stocks go lower rather than
increase the extraction.
Animal feed: need now is for greater variety of foods. Don’t cut
back on that by wrecking livestock prospects.
Recommend therefore M/F. shd. take bigger risk on stocks.
A.V.A.
Doubtful re gamble. We’ve rarely dropped as low as this. Failure of
home crop wd. be disastrous – locally.
E.B.
Never ran pre-war over 600.000 t.
T.W.
Extraction. Told industry emphasis on livestock: promised food:
they’ve bred in anticipn stock wd. have to be killed &
confidence wd. be undermined.
Can’t have a livestock policy with varying food rations.
General view of Cabinet: against increasing extraction rate.
Stock levels. 845.000 or 650.000 next issue.
A.B.
Risk of epidemics fr. Europe. My advisers say serious situation.
They urge more provn to raise calory standard in Germany.
That risk shd. be set off against U.K. risk.
B.S.
May have to find wheat for India because of lack of rice. Reason for
not reducg. stocks. Alternatively, save wheat to put more rice
into H. Kong & Malaya. Choice therefore do we help our own
people first or Germany.
3 m. tons/wheat in Argentine wh. can’t be moved to seabord. My figures
assume I get it.
E.B.
700.000 wd. be safe.
379
H.M.
Pre-war comparison not wise – because condns still unsettled.
Trouble coming in S.E.A.L.
Also U.K. needs must come before German.
Pressure of publ. opinion h’to all one way.
E.Sh.
Implicns of our policy. More coal fr. Ruhr. Must therefore feed the
miners.
No sentiment about this. Business. Can you take a risk in order
to step up prodn in central Europe.
W’ton policy if accepted will ease posn. Can use dollar tonnage etc.
Support E.B. – stocks down to 700.000.
P.L.
H.D.
..
..
Assuming no large diversion of supplies from India.
No approach to U.S. pendg. concln of W’ton talks.
Conclns as in memo.
[Enter Wilmot, Tomlinson
Exit N. Baker.
4.
Labour Controls and Releases from Forces.
E.B.
As in memo.
Exception in respect of direction within the bldg. industry.
Keep age, for labour control in step with call-up age.
Must then enforce up to 30 – by procdgs when necessary.
Women: diff. situation arising: women keeping away fr.
Exchanges because fear of direction: will do better therefore
w’out control than with it. We were only country to apply
this compulsion to women.
Agriculture: no E.W.O. Ques.: shd. ring-fence be put round it.
Let M/Ag. & M/L. discuss. I haven’t studied that.
G.A.I.
M/L. control over labour is being lost. Must have an enforceable line.
Bldg.
Both sides of advisory panel against any direction: tho’
claim there is black market.
Agric.
Ready to put in ring fence. Dpt. must recognise however
that. this is barrier to recruitment e.g. fr. Forces.
Women. Relaxn shdn’t extend to nursing. Retain up to 30.
C. Service. Maintain save for persons over 60.
Releases. Cl. B. now running at 10%.
Deferment. Ready to defer some call-up fr. bldg. industries.
No intn to call up apprentices or so-called apprentices.
Bldg. materials – defermt. also possible up to March &
then spread to June.
In general, 2 months’ delay – will facilitate discns to meet
needs of Dpts.
Takg. into a/c rapid rate of releases – large nos. available – we believe
control up to 30 (for bldg. up to 50) will enable us to meet needs
of Civil industry.
380
Arrangemts. promised for defermt. for bldg. cd. perhaps be applied to
mining – ready to discuss.
P.M.
Publicity. In view of censure debate – re-consider recommn in
C.P. 311.
E.B.
Tribute to Services & M/W.T. on speeding-up of demobn.
Proposals in C.P. 311 – designed to get more people out in spring.
Saves much cost & gives a lift to industry at the right moment.
A.B.
My points met by G.A.I.’s statement.
Need for rigid enforcement of control. Black-market house-repairs,
above licence value.
T.W.
Agree with Item 5 memo. Provided we get the labour from Class b.
S.
Overall-figure will be met. But R.A.F. can’t maintain same rate
in 1946.
Make it clear its over-all: not each Service separately.
E.Sh.
Special needs of mining on call-up.
G.A.I.
Deferred until Feb. Opportunity to review this again.
Put them at tail-end of call-up.
J.J.L.
Old men dependent on call-up of young.
B.S.
Hope M/L. will recognise needs of food industries. Must have labour
to replace p.o.w.
A.V.A.
Can’t maintain this rate of release without a) contd call-up.
b) revision of commitments.
n
Agreed { announce control dec – M/L. w’out delay.
{ reserve other announcemts. for P.M. in Censure
Debate.
E.Sh.
Care in announcing relaxn of controls. Diffies for particular industries
must be regarded. Must at same time impress miners with
feeling tht. they are specially important.
P.M.
Statement to be framed in consultn with Dpts. concerned. Draft
might be submd to Cab. on Thursday.
T.W.
Shdn’t be made before wages issue in agriculture settled.
E.B.
Defer announcemt. for a time. Confer with J.C.L Let P.M. say in
Censure debate this increase in releases will make it poss. to
consider relaxn of controls – this being considered ………
Then bring it out in 2 wks.
381
5th December, 1945.
C.M. 59(45).
Washington Discussions on Financial Questions.
P.M.
Point reached for Cab. decision.
H.D.
U.K. draft at last Cab. U.S. counter-draft: in many respects the same
but some diffies.
Many mtgs. in W’ton: & here of 3 Ministers.
Substantial point now outstandg: transit. period is connn with B.W.A.
and scheme generally. U.S. counter proposal unsatisf. Strong
telegram sent askg. for 3 amendmts – a) t. period origin. 5 yrs
under B.W.A.: U.S. were seekg. to reduce to little more than
one b) U.S. seekg. deprive us only of benefit of scarce currency
clause c) not clear how far we retained right to resign fr. Fund.
As a result: b) we have won outright. c) our freedom to resign
not challenged - & to re-value sterling: but not to re-impose
exchange control on current transaction by resigning. First =
the more important. a) we haven’t bn. met: & U.S. ready to
break on this.
This therefore is the issue. T. period originally cont. = 5 yrs. Now
agreed: 15 mos. fr. effective date (for both Agreemt. & Fund).
Ques. = betwn. 15 mos. & 5 yrs. We suggd Dec. ’48 & they
reject it. Shd. we make final effort for e.g. 21/2 yrs? But: pt.
was to give us freedom when we were short of f. exchange.
They say, you won’t now be short because of loan. Awkward
for Parlt. presentn tht. this period is to be cut down. But shd. we
break on this?
P.M.
To what extent have we already cut into our rights under t.p. agreemt.
H.D.
In U.K. draft considered before: commd to free dollar earngs. w’in
1st 15 mos. Sterling area desire this. For Sterling area therefore
this pt. already given away.
Countries for wh. restns wd. remain = some not founder members
of Fund, mainly Switz., Spain & P., Argentine.
Qua other founder members, already commd to freeing on current
earnings in 15 mos.
Not therefore as much in this quantitatively.
Alternatives.
Fr. loan: terms much more harsh. Repaymt. in 30 yrs. vice 55 &
beginning at once. 23/8 vice 2%.
If we get this, need for care over dollar exp. wd. remain. Slow
drawg. – qua overdraft. And build up exports w’in 2-3 yrs.
Durg. tht. time protected by this credit fr. impact of econ. condns
outside. Cd. build up standards/livg. 6 year fr. Dec. 45 before
paymt. begins. Shd. get right by then – increasg. release fr.
shortages & austerity. Assumg. reasonable freedom for expts.
shd. be able to carry the charge by then.
382
If we don’t get this – a) reversal on standards = food, clothing,
tobacco. Recalled earlier informn on this. Less of all foods save
bread & potatoes. This = immediate consequences before
switching to other sources. b) Power to export limited by gt.
U.S. drive on competitive basis. c) Political consequences on
this Govt.: wd. be said to be our fault. d) Canadians wd. say
we had broken on an unimportant point. W’in sterling area
disintegration wd. begin rapidly. They don’t like our control
of dollar pool. S. Afr. wd. quickly brk. away: U.S. wd. offer
India gt. inducemts. to brk. away. Egypt wd. go. We shd. be
left with Austr. & N.Z. e) Genl. effect on Anglo. U.S.
co-opn - & internatl. political posn.
Conclude: not justifiable to break on this. Make a final attempt to get
some alleviation – e.g. extend to Dec. ’47.
R.S.C.
Diffy. more psychol. than real. In fact not giving much because
t. period much cut down already.
Won’t therefore make much diff. in dealg. with sterling.
Real diffy. is Parly. one – askg. for ratificn of B.W.A. at same time
as bilateral agreemt. Cuttg. down period fr. 5 yrs. to 15 months.
Quite logical, however, for U.S. to say large loan with no
repaymt. for 5 years makes it unnecessary for you to invoke
Art. 14 of B.W.A.
Alternative so disastrous I believe we shd. face Parly. diffy.
E.B.
I am against brkg. on this. Concerned to get our industry going – for
reconstn of Europe. Tried for ’48 because believed by then we
shdn’t be so dependent. Even by ’47 chance we wd. be well on
the road. Try for ’47.
P.L.
If U.S. had opposed c) it wd. have bn. v. serious. Glad Art. 15 isn’t
challenged.
a) is much less serious. Not of practical importance. And much in
U.S. argument.
Think we shd. accept – must prime the pump.
Doubt if its worth trying to get ’47. Wdn’t help the Parly. argument.
Might introd. fresh complicn. I wd. accept w’out a last attempt
to haggle.
H.M.
Agree with C/E. & B/T.
A.
.. .. .. ..
we broke on this.
A.V.A.
On prev. pts. of doubt negotiators have done v. well.
We may be optimistic re recovery. Heavy fiscal charge in ‘50/51.
Wd. like a further effort to extend – to ’47. because Parly. diffy.
Worth another shot.
Shd. get no support fr. Canada or S. Afr. if
383
A.G.
Consequences of a brk. – for other countries as well as us – so severe
I wdn’t brk.
Agree with P.L. re last shot.
E.Sh.
Don’t attach importce to redn of t. period because agreemt. as a whole
so bad. Only pt. on this = it’s bilateral, in a multi-lateral
Agreemt.
Presented with alternatives. My answer to that: haven’t adequ.
explored posn in long run if this accommn rejected. H.D.’s
figures etc., have related to immediate consequences only.
Believe tht. if we had stood up to U.S. we’d have done better.
This = overdraft only & on one bank. Asked to accept on
understandg. we buy heavily fr. U.S. Don’t believe our
industry. recovery depends on imports fr. U.S. Do believe
their industr. recovery depends on makg. loans on condn of
purchase of their exports.
U.S. Shylock. We cd. have impeached them before the world.
That wdn’t have embittered Anglo-U.S. relns. What would
do so is if 2/3 years hence we have to say we can’t meet our
obligns.
A.B.
U.S. insisting on this redn in t. period in order to force us into takg. up
credit.
This is U.S. come-back on our puttg. it on basis of overdraft.
Forces us to use the dollars instead of Art. 15 method of escaping
tempy diffy.
This is how argument will be put in Parlt.
Too much concerned with our diffies = not enough with theirs.
Psychol. aspect. R.S.C. thinks he has got all he wants – but U.S.
think the same.
Risk of mutual self-deception. Will foul Anglo-U.S. relations.
They & we will think of spirit, not letter.
Can’t brk. on this sort of point, if we once accept Agreement in
substance.
Negotiators v. skilful – but our approach was wrong. Wd. have bn.
better to say at outset we wdn’t accept Agreemt. wh. wd. militate
v. reconstn of world-trade.
E.W. }
}
J. }
In general agreemt. with E.Sh.
E.B.
Comm. Policy. Don’t let us forget that Art. 7 was signed – to get
Lease-Lend.
A.B.
Time-table. Will our Debate come first?
H.D.
Yes: Congress adjourned until Jan.
So am I but can’t break on this point.
384
A.B.
That means our debate presents it to U.S. All our arguments will be
used in Congress.
R.S.C.
We have got an agreed expln – ie. they agree to our interpn.
H.M.
Presentn shd. be objective: not writing it up or down.
H.D.
Finance Group – asked earlier for views on B.W.A. Majority
thought it advent. to us. Last-minute attempt.
H.D.
x/ Tell them we will accept: but remind them tht. fr. Parly. angle ‘47
wd. help us.
Agreed: subject to x/.
2.
Parliament.
A.B.
Business in H/C. Friday. Had Confce in Nottingham. Rpt. & 3rd
Rdg. of Bldg. Bill.
H.M.
Risk tht. H/C. might object to absence. I wdn’t risk it.
A.B.
Only Opposn likely to object.
H.M.
Bill of some importance. You shd. be there.
A.B.
Tomlinson is there.
385
6th December, 1945.
C.M. 60(45).
1.
Meeting of Foreign Ministers.
E.B.
24/11 tel recd fr. Byrnes - had appd Mol., suggesting mtg. of 3 For.
Min. in Moscow. M. pleased said wd. consult Govt. B. hadn’t
consulted us. Diffy because not mtg. of C.F.M. Asked him
therefore wtr. mtg. of 3 wdn’t raise suspicion – esp. immed.
before UNO. mtg. Also he sent no Agenda. Said must know that
first; & how were C & F. to be excluded. However agreed at
Potsdam 3 cd. meet irresp. of C.F.M. Tho’ if Agenda were CFM.
stuff tht. wd. be awkward.
Agenda – suggd now received from B.
a) Commn for Atomic Energy. Decn of Can. U.K. U.S. on
this not yet recd. We ought to get 3 agreed before
consultg. 4th.
b) Reconvening of C.F.M. & prompt resumptn.
c) T. of r. for Japan – Allied Council.
d) Korea – indep. Govt.
Put these diffies to B. on teleprint conversn.
Then T. said no more mtgs. of 3 Powers. Asked Winant wtr. T. or B.
repd U.S.A. No answer on that until this a.m. B. said y’day T.
statement referred to Heads of States, not Foreign Ministers.
Suggd tht. if we go to Moscow shd. be exploratory. UNO meets 7/1.
But B. has said he wd. go alone if I didn’t.
Now propose to agree, on basis explor. confce to examine diffies of
3 Powers before U.N.O. meets. Read draft telegram. Suggest
we shd. announce to world it’s mainly re (a). Caveat: not
discuss ques. affectg. French.
Rules out (b). U.S. & U.K. to give in advance such an
assurance to Fr. Govt.
P.M.
No alternative but to go.
Agreed: Foreign Secy. to go. Announce Priv. Notice P.Q.
by Eden. Friday.
2.
Motion of Gratitude to War Leaders.
H.M.
As in memo.
P.M.
Seen A.E. V. awkward – names will prompt amendments &
additions – scientists etc.
A.
D.O. view: we thanked Dom. commrs. in prev. Motion. Shd.
therefore be added by name in this. Cdn’t say who, w’out
consultg. Doms.
A.V.A.
R.S.C.
Then you’d have to add some Junior Commrs.
Radar statement: 3 months’ Cttee to get list: & nothg. but criticism
386
since for omissions.
J.J.L.
W.O. against this. C.O.S. also opposed.
R.S.C.
Let them put it down. Get Govt. supporters to put down maxim. no.
of amendmts. & then refuse time.
H.M.
x/ But first tell Opposition Cabinet have considered & are against it for
this reason.
Agreed: as at x/.
3.
Parliament.
P.M.
Congratns to R.S.C.
H.M.
Will have to say – no statement yet. Later in the day – i.e. after
P.M.’s statement.
H.D.
As good as settled now.
H.M.
But can’t announce a debate next week on an announcement not
yet made.
After discussion { Adjourn i.e. suspend until 11 p.m. or even
{ later.
{ For statement beginning at 10.30.
{ Bus. statement at rising of House.
H.M.
Outlined Business for the Week.
Wed/Thurs. until &. p.m. Genl. Debate on Financ. Agreement.
Thereafter B.W.A. Bill.
Fri. Cttee & remaining stages of B.W.A. until 2 p.m.
Speakers for the Debate.
H.D.
I shd. open: R.S.C. come in early e.g. at 6 p.m. One more speaker
required. Suggest E.B.
E.B.
I shall have left for Moscow – or v. near it – if I’m to be there on
15/12.
Cd. suggest conference startg. at 16.12.
H.M.
E.B. cd. leave at 7 p.m. on 13/12.
Agreed: H.D., R.S.C. and E.B. (subject to considn).
H.M.
Read terms of Motion.
R.S.C.
Add reference to L. Lend. H.D. & R.S.C. to settle terms.
Names: P.M., H.D., R.S.C., E.B., H.M.
P.L.
Must H/Lds. pass Resoln as well as Bill.
[Exit Whiteley.
387
[Enter Paling & Griffiths.
A.
Agreed – genl. discn on Mon. week: then Bill will go thro’ on the nod.
H.M.
20/12 to 22/1. Christmas Adjournment. Announce to-night.
4.
National Insurance Scheme.
a)
Rates.
J.G.
Party & T.U.C. accepted Bev. principles. Follows they shd now be
related to current c/living figure.
Future: automatic adjustmt. wd. brk. down: prefer therefore
review after 5 yrs.
H.D.
Formidable financial burden. Can’t advise Cabinet to accept this plan
as it stands. Cost: see p.1. of my memo. Increased Exch. cost
£10 m. p. decade. Contributors’ share remains constant. Rises
even after 20 years.
a) Can’t therefore justify higher rate of o.a.p. for single person:
accept rate for couple.
Original 20/= & 35/=. I agreed 20/= & 40/=. S.S. Cttee. have
now gone further. People aren’t really expectg. 26/=. Wd.
accept 21/= and 42/=. Diffce initially £27 m. + £3/4 m.
permanently out of £10 m. increase.
b) Unwilling to abandon Lab. Party policy tht. pensions shd. be
retirement pension. Incentive to postpone retirement. Agree
½ a wk. not enough: wd. be ready to go up to 2/6 and 5/= a
week extra for each year for wh. retirement is p’poned.
c) Unlimited duration of u. benefit. Can’t agree unless real
assurance tht. malingering can be prevented. Don’t suggest
training as a check: cdn’t change of job or residence be
substituted.
General. Approachg. period of numerous claims. Must counsel
caution. Can’t deal with this on basis of mere generosity.
Realistic finance.
R.L.
Will c/living be held or even reduced. That wd. make a big difference.
H.D.
Diff. to foresee: but wd. do my best to hold it.
A.G.
Compromise report.
H.D.
Contributions. Scheme wd. cost 5/2. My amendmts. are worth 7d a
week each. This wd. come down to 4/7. And preserve
contributory principle.
A.G.
On c) above. J.G. believes existg. safeguards to check malingering.
M/L. didn’t fully agree.
388
a) above. Doubtful wtr. 26/= cd. be accepted.
b) above. Now favour, on reflection, inducement of 2/6 and 5/=.
G.A.I.
On c). Greatly concerned. After last war much improper claiming on
Fund. Feel somethg. stronger than last time. Refusal of work not
training. T.U. pressure: but all T.U. schemes have limited
benefits.
Under full emplt. we shd. be able to offer some job. Wd. like
therefore unlimited duration. Job in other area - & allowances.
On balance – against unlimited duration.
E.Sh.
On b) - support retirement pensions. People shd. not have pensions
stop work.
On c) - u. benefit must be hedged round with condns. Unwilling tht.
u. benefit shd. be payable to anyone unwilling to accept work
on proper T.U. condns.
With remainder of H.D.’s case I disagree. Ours is expansionist policy –
liberal resources in cash & in kind. H.D. seems to assume
encroachg. on Exch. involves burdens on nation: but not for
transfer, wh. this is.
To extent you promote full emplt. policy you reduce cost to Exch. –
tho’ they go on paying contns. Must decide wtr. you have
courage of this conviction. If you’re not sure of this policy you
must pay higher rates, for if u. longer pay shd. be more. Same
with effect of N.H. Service.
On a) don’t ask single o.a.p. to live on 21/=. Coal at 4/2 p.cwt.
T.W.
a) – 21/= is 15/9. at ’39 values.
b) wd. enable them to raise the amount. Support that. Also (c).
But want 26/= for single o.a.p.
E.W.
c) might be real economy. Cd. hold 30 wks. if work available.
Workers will support efforts to keep slackers off Fund. But
breaks down in period of long unemployment. Then if
duration limited, State must provide public works. “Unlimited
benefit” bad phrase: put it on basis of “benefit or work”.
E.B.
Decide: pensions not except on retirement. Any other decision wd.
give rise to v. gt. trouble.
J.G.
This is ques. of best method of inducg. old people to stay on working.
8.000 o.a.p. already working.
} P.M
400.000 vol. contributors – will have to be paid at 65 by contract}
H.D.
Those drawing – don’t stop. Others, however, only on retirement.
J.G.
Best way of keeping o.a.p. age groups at work. My concln was –
divided pension wd. be best. If Cab. prefer the other
inducements, I will accept – at 2/6 and 5/=. It is a balance
on considns.
389
E.B.
Is H.D.’s offer of 2/6 condl on 21/= vice 26/= for single rate.
Believe 2/6 wd. be too high if 26/= adopted.
H.D.
They are linked.
Agreed: o.a.p. on retirement, and financial inducements
to continue work after retirement age.
The o.a.p. rate for single person.
J.G.
We cd. say 26/= is same as other single benefit rates. Don’t have to
defend special rate for o.a.p. If put fwd. as separate rate, it will
be forced up.
J.
Supported 26/=. Diff to defend 21/=. Supplemn: diffy. is 1/3rd. are
getting it.
H.M.
In N.H.I. and U.I. there is no supplementn.
J.
There is on U.I.
H.M.
It is not improper tht. people shd. get more in case of real need.
Neither 21/= nor 26/= cd. be defended as enough where no resources.
It may be too much in too many cases.
General – this Rpt. seems to be based on doing better than Coalition,
not on merits. This £10 m. p.a. will preclude help in future years
to the active section of community – in education etc.
21/= can be raised to 26/= by staying on in work for 2 years.
E.B.
Men will pay for pensions. Mistake to put increased cost of this on
Exch. Average paymt. 7/= p. wk. for benefits to be covered by
whole scheme. This is largely diversion.
When we accepted Bev. figures, we reserved our posn re c/living. We
never took the figures w’out saying actual rates wd. have to be
fixed when Bill intd.
O.a.p. Take 2/= p. wk. p. year. Wd. prefer 1/= for every 6 months.
H.D. Agreed. But diff. between 21/= and 26/= is not increase of
p. power. If you were going to take 20/= on Bev. figures, 26/buys no more now. It means 6 more tokens to buy what they wd.
have bought in 1938 for 20/=. But let a bigger propn of addl.
5/= be carried by contributors – less Ty. savings on supplementn.
H.D.
My troubles are in future – it mounts. Old people increase as contrib.
remain constant. Wd. you agree tht. State shd. pay less & same
no./contrib. more?
E.B.
Wdn’t say it now. Let there be a review later.
P.M.
C/Exch. L.P.S. & M/N.I. to reconsider in light of discussion.
E.B.
Willing to join in.
Agreed.
390
Unlimited Duration.
} Agreed.
Genl. view against it. R.S.C. Married women after war.}
J.G.
“Continuous” not unlimited. Doesn’t last after refusal of job.
Nothg. yet devised wh. caught the shirker. They penalise the
innocent. Believe enough safeguards already in Act. Stopping
benefit doesn’t solve it. They all come back to “genuinely
seeking work”. That test won’t work. Lab. Party view –
only real test = offer of job.
E.B.
I reported to Coaln Govt. on this. This Fund is not answer to
unemplt. That is why I commended a limit. The cost after
30 wks. shd. not come on the contrib. I wasn’t concerned with
dodges at all. State shd. carry this cost. He contributes only to
cost of mtg. normal unemployment.
Postpone.
[Exit Griffiths & Paling.
[Enter. Tomlinson,
B. Smith, Strauss.
5.
Employment of Prisoners of War.
G.A.I.
Since memo. examd B. p.o.w. in U.S. But a) W.O. doubt wtr. they will
work hard b) transport. If these were forthcoming it wd. ease
our problem.
Str.
Wd. be easier for us to bring these here than to bring from Germany
to U.K.
J.J.L.
175.000. If we ask for them, we’d have to supply shipping.
Str.
Not necessarily – anyway we can afford shipping.
G.A.I.
Then – different allocations can be made.
P.M.
M/H. stresses danger of inflexible allocn: might cause unemplt. among
them.
G.T.
Room for 43.000. After spring cd. put any overspill under canvas.
B.S.
Stated his requirements. 2.000 odd on beet-sugar. 900 brewing,
seed crushg. animal feed etc., 2.100. Want at least another 900.
G.A.I.
If we can get U.S. supply, we can meet such cases.
Present allocns will stand m’while.
[Exit Tomlinson, Smith,
Strauss.
Enter M/Inf.
6.
H.M.
Government Publicity Services.
Urgent ques: shd. MoI. continue?
391
Agreed.
Majority view: don’t continue a) Politically difficult b) Doubt if
work for full-time Minister w’out encroachg. on other Ministers.
P.M.
Report of Labour Group. I met them & pointed out pol. diffies.
My view: v. dangerous politically. In Opposn we shd. object.
Machinery for puttg. our case overseas - & use that at home.
Political – I mean, not merely diffies in H/C. but long-term re
functions of Govt.
A.
Depends on what you put in its place. Not fully satisfied with
altern. plan. Will reserve my points for that discussion.
MoI.
Grounds for my view were stated in memo.
Preservn of peace rests on opinion of world peoples. Need to create
peaceful world opinion. If MoI. goes, overseas Dpts will all
resume separate control.
P.M.
Why? Cdn’t there be a central agency?
MoI.
The views I put to External Group cover my opinions.
M’while Ministry is melting under my hands.
Doubt if alternative wd. be as effective.
H.M. doesn’t indicate what is to be done with B.B.C., B. Council etc.
R.S.C.
Genl. agreemt. there shd. be a central agency.
Ques. is: political: shd. that agency be controlled by a Minister
responsible for nothg. but “informn”.
Agreed: no Minister.
H.M.
Accept principle of H.M.’s rpt.: and let official working party
put in detailed rpt.
A.
Take a/c. of B. Council.
T.W.
Wd. C.I.B. be able to handle films?
H.M.
Yes.
H.M.
Arranged P.Q. Bringing MoI. to an end: considg. alternative
arrangemts. etc.
Settle also – what can be said to retain the staff.
Agreed.
H.M. to settle drafts of both & report to P.M.
392
10th December, 1945.
C.M. 61(45).
1.
War Pensions.
A.G.
Better for H.M.G. to take initiative than risk Select Cttee.
S.S Cttee have abated some of M/P. demands. – E.g. 50/= rate –
because of repercussions.
All proposals agreed save pre-injury wife.
W.P.
Earlier promises to review at end/war – in putting off earlier
demands of Coaln Govt.
d
Sugg 50/=. Wanted to get somethg. wh. wd. settle this for some time.
40/= was fixed in 1919. Since ’39 c/living up by 30%. 45/= wd.
be only 121/2% increase. Service allowances have bn. raised by
about 100%. Pressure to reduce disparity between o.r. and
c. offrs. – lowest c. offrs. now get double the ranker.
Repercussions on 1.1. Bill. Justification: a) disparity with
civilian injuries already b) w. compn raised by 50% c) man in
Forces had less money than man in industry – and bn. worse off
in other ways e.g. risks.
A.G.
Need to get minimum disparity betwn. various schemes.
Total incapacity is same, whatever its cause.
H.D.
Repercussion on 1.1 Bill wd. be v. gt. Much pressure to go beyond
45/=. If we did this, cdn’t stop going up to 50/=.
J.G.
For 1st time w. compn paymts. will be compared with war pensions.
We’ve now adopted the W. Pensions model – thus inviting
comparison. Some preferential rates for ex-soldier can be
justified, but not diffce in basic rate.
In 1.1. Bill 45/= is flat rate. Under R. Warrant it’s a basic rate for
private.
T.W.
The c/living argument is awkward.
E.W.
Inter-war they went up to top of c/living scale, but never came down.
Agreed: 45/= as in Rpt. of Cttee.
Widows under 40. Report accepted.
Post-Injury Wives and Children.
E.B.
Example: man of 24, married after injury, gets nothing.
H.D.
My proposal: allowances if he is not working. This is in line with
1.1. Bill.
Family allowance = proper method of giving more to children
E.Sh.
Why not give it until F. All. come in?
393
H.D.
V. dangerous – diff. to w’draw them once given.
W.P.
Anomaly – 2 men one married and another not, meetg. with same
disability. Worst bone of contention – all organisations repd
ex-Service men are united in putting this as No 2 grievance
i.e. w’draw the allowance from first class of case (?).
A.G.
Diffies with 1.1.Bill.
P.M.
Cd. you have a time-limit – e.g. married within x years after injury.
H.D.
I offered 5 years fr. discharge or end/war, but M/P. didn’t accept
that.
A.G.
Doms. tried to prevent death-bed marriage & failed.
T.W.
Difficulty about time-limit = long-term hospital cases.
A.V.A.
View of Service Dpts. in favour.
E.B.
Put it at 10 years from end/Jap. war.
Or let Cab. decide in principle & ask Cttee to work out best method
of limiting it.
A.B.
Wd. prefer to concede the principle.
H.D.
Can’t accept that – because repercussions on 1.1.Bill and cost.
Agreed: limit to 10 years. S.S. Cttee to consider in detail.
2.
Shipping Policy.
[Exeunt: Paling & Griffiths
[Enter Barnes.
Barnes
a) D.O. pt. can be met, as long as understood tht. they i.e. Doms.
& India conform to rules – any ships they acquire must be subject
to dirn & control for some time to come. Intd mainly in Groups 2
& 3 – not excluded fr. Grp 1.
b) Ready to let owners who have lost have another opportunity to buy
before auction.
P.L.
In memo. to me Barnes indicates Dom. & Indian owners won’t like a):
& if they do wd. prefer not to offer save to those who lost.
Will take this pt. up with M/W.T.
Agreed.
J.J.L.
Disposal scheme after last war resulted in cutting of freights etc., &
came back on our yards. Wd. prefer to Charter until enough fr.
our yards.
P.M.
Settling away fr. flag – prevent tht. & you will meet the point.
B.
Mtg. that. Re J.J.L., there is shortage not surplus.
394
P.M.
J.J.L.’s pts. are safeguarded in memo. Powers to cope with those
risks.
E.B.
How will you control transfer of flag – e.g. to Greeks.
B.
Transfer Restn Act.
P.M.
See that this Act is contd for long enough.
Appd – subject to various other pts. of detail.
[Enter: Hynd, Smith, N. Baker.
3.
Wheat for Germany.
J.B.H.
Of 112.500 – only 60.000 at sea.
New shipments wdn’t arrive in time to save situation at end this
month/
Approach to U.S. – Cab. decn inconsistent with agreemt. on German
imports.
275.000 t. authd for purchase.
25.000 t. balance 120.000 indigenous. 275.000 authd = 355.000 t. to
end/February. This is all that is in sight.
P.M.
Can deal now only with immediate situation.
B.S.
Quite imposs. to meet the 11/2 m.
{ 50.000 t. flour U.K.
To meet immedte.
{ 25.000 t. barley
..
{ 16.000 t. U.S. white flour now afloat.
Given instns to load.
Further 25.000 t. barley Jan.
30.000 t. U.S. white to be diverted
This = 150.000 t. wheat equivalent at German extractn rate.
On long-term: will reduce U.K. stocks to 700.000 t. [Exit G.A.I.
E.Sh.
This meets me until mid/or end/February.
Must have appreciation of long-term problem – soon. Also Indian
position.
J.B.H.
Barnes.
This 90.000 odd addl. may interrupt other programmes.
[ Exeunt Barnes Smith
Hynd.
4.
U.N.E.S.C.O. Conference.
Agreed: F.O. to be associated at all stages.
395
5.
Spanish Refugees in P.O.W. Camps.
E.B.
Fr. will allow return at 10 a week – to be stepped up to 20. Can be
announced.
J.J.L.
M’while may I put them on same basis as Italian collaborators.
Agreed.
396
13th December, 1945.
C.M. 62(45).
1.
Offices of Profit: Proposed Select Committee.
H.M.
Sessional Sel. Cttee – so tht. any further cases can be referred to it.
Power to sit in Recess. I.O.O. not sure wtr. these have commd
offence.
Read out proposed t. of r.
P.M.
Not to recommend changes in law?
H.M.
No. Proposed that shd. be left to Govt. initiative.
Genl. feeling that law shd. be amended.
E.B.
Diffy of e.g. M/L. in getting people to serve on such Panels – don’t
want to scare people off who are candidates for Election prs.
years ahead.
J.
Devise method of apptmt wh. automatically determines apptmt on
election.
P.M.
Agree this present action must be taken. Also tht. law be amended.
Ques: shd. amendmt. be proposed by Govt. or by S. Cttee.
A.G.
There is a report. Let us consider wtr. we propose legn to give effect
Agreed.
to it.
[Exit: A.G. and S.G.
[Enter: J. Griff. & Paling
2.
National Insurance Scheme.
A.G.
Summarised proposals in memo.
Limited Duration.
A.B.
Supported J.G. What point in ceasing benefit after 30 wks. if State
has failed to find work or training before then. State is obliged
to maintain: ques. only by what means, benefit or assistance.
P.M.
What of married women?
A.B.
Shd. deal with special cases specially, not by general rule. M. women
case always raises diffy: but if no job can be offered locally she
shd. be treated as havg. fallen out of insurable class and treated
as such by Regn.
P.M.
What Regn? Getting back to “not genuinely seekg. work.”
T.W.
What of seasonal workers – worst case if any. H’to worked 16 wks.
& drew benefit for remainder. If you try to define by Regn
you’ll be driven back to Anomalies Act methods.
397
E.W.
Continuous benefit wdn’t cost State more.
Strongest argument against = take them off the Fund.
But cd. be so administered tht. it was tighter on shirker than
assistance.
Recogn. m. women = crucial diffy. Meet it by makg. marriage a
break unless in industry where she wd. normally go on working.
P.M.
Point if diff. – Many women now workg. who wdn’t normally work.
Can’t see how Regn proposed by A.B. is diff. fr. “gen. seekg.
work”.
A.B.
Diff. = onus of proof. Exchange must offer work.
E.B.
Is it just to put on contns the cost of abnormal unemployment? That is
the issue. Insurance: shd. be definite contractual basis. Any
discretionary adminn shd. be outside Fund & outside Labour
Exchange. If abnormal unemplt. occurs, remedy shd. not be on
insurance. Pay the same, if you like, but not out of Fund.
x/ Arguable that assistance payable to unemployed shd. not be
the same as that designed for o.a.p.
State and not the Fund must bear the responsibility if abnormal
unemplt. occurs. On E.W. argument we don’t want to
encourage a marriage break. Policy of maternity grants etc., is to
encourage them to go on in emplt.
Remedy is in x/: look into that.
H.M.
Recalled experience of 1931 – degeneracy of U.I. Fund – strongly
supported E.B. After 30 wks. new situation arises. Govt. must
be forced to look at econ. situation, generally locally & by
individual.
H.D.
Must retain 30 wks. – both for E.B.’s reason: also for financial
reason that some, when situation reviewed, will cease to draw
fr. any sources. We can’t balance our Budget etc., unless
unemplt. for more than 30 wks. is cut to minimum.
G.A.I.
Consider this – after 30 wks. State to pay, but at insurance rate,
subject to needs test. Genuine workman wd. have no diffy. in
provg. need. But m. woman wdn’t get away with it. Not pers.
“need”: but ques. whether they are in the employment field.
P.M.
A.B. harking back to conditions of depressed areas betwn. the wars.
Problem now is rather the individual cases such as M. women
who are not genuinely in the emplt. market.
E.B.
Insurance shd. continue on contractual basis – shd. be no ques. of
discretion or onus of proof.
E.Sh.
If full emplt. is our policy – long before 30 weeks State must take
positive action.
398
But need shdn’t be introduced after the 30 wks. – only tests re
willingness to take work or training.
E.B.
Those tests must be considered separately – as tests for unemployed
class w’in the assistance field.
This fight on u. benefit & assistance betwn. the wars has caused
national indiscipline in this sphere. – cheating the Fund instead of
pride in not claiming.
P.M.
Let us agree that liability of Insurance Fund shall be limited to 30 wks.
y/ That is all we need decide for Bill. Condns of payment after
30 wks. can be considered subsequently & separately.
G.H.
More diff. than m. women = men between 50/65 who can’t go on
working and can’t be moved. Agree Fund shdn’t maintain them.
E.B.
By alteration of assistance rules in 1941/2 I added 30-40 m. State
pensioners not really un-employed at all.
Some heavy industries – special scheme w’out age limit. It is
invalidity not old age. Can’t define an age – e.g. in coal or steel.
J/G.
Two separate problems a) m. women. Ques. there
[Exit C. Ede
is wtr. they satisfy the first condition [
Jowitt.
available for work. Agree on that with W. Paper.
Not a 30 wks. problem. Arises in 1st week. Not merely
m. women only.
b) People who can’t be placed w’in 30 wks. Agree State not
Fund shd. carry it. Ques: how shall it be discharged. I must
answer that in H/C. on this Bill. Only answer I can give now is
Assistance. And remember test of need is in the Act & can’t
be changed by Reqn. Sending them to Assistce Bd. will revive
v. bitter controversy
E.B.
Why not give pledge to consider form in wh. State’s oblign shall be
z/
discharged. Separate legn. We aren’t tied to existing law.
Assurance in genl. terms.
H.M.
Don’t say anything to commit this Govt. to abolish test of need –
generally.
Agreed as at y and z. Statement at z to come to Cabinet.
H.D.
Pensions. Agree to 26/=. But no giving way to pressure for increases.
Say nothg. at this state re special schemes for particular industries.
E.B.
Don’t want any reference to possibility of Exchequer assistance.
But there are existg. schemes – will have to be adjusted. These are
prized. Cd. J.G. say we wd. welcome or encourage specl.
schemes – wd. be willing to allow State scheme machinery to
be used in proper cases.
399
H.D.
No objn qua existg. schemes. Don’t want talk about new schemes.
Need to keep people longer in industry.
E.Sh.
Diffy. – existg. pension schemes in mines. Can’t leave it with them.
For they are bound to extend. Want it said we wd. look with
favour not only existg. but on further schemes so long as don’t
involve addl. charge on Exch.
H.D.
Why say it now?
E.B.
To avert opposition fr. supporters of special schemes. ?Spk. in terms
of special schemes: State willing to help at low cost on admin.
machinery. Wd. give encouragemt. to trustees.
Agreed. { special schemes, not limited to existing schemes.
{ Formula to be agreed with C/Exch.
P.L.
Inducements. Alarmed at magnitude. Owing to ….. greater longevity.
Problem of o.a.p. But also relief because can work to later age.
Suppose he remains at work up to 70 because stronger and in
favourable industry – then gets 50% more pension. Disparity
with less fortunate neighbour. Fear you won’t hold that
position.
H.D.
Inducements stop at 70.
Want to get them to go on working.
Difference is only 10/= or 20/= for a couple. Deserved well of the
State.
P.M.
Human fortunes. Equally hard luck if a man dies at 61!
Agreed: as in memo. P.L. drawing attentn to dangers.
Contributions
H.M.
In W. Paper we contemplated power to vary contributions.
Is it possible to include it in this Bill?
J.G.
V. diff. to work this system. Wd. put Fund off actuarial basis. You
wd. have to provide correspondg. contn by Exchequer.
H.M.
Don’t ask for decn to-day. But want it examined seriously.
E.B.
I wd. take genl. powers.
3.
H.M.
A.
Agreed: Social Services Cttee to examine & report.
[Exit: Griff & Paling.
Parliament.
Explained business.
Hope to get Bldg. Materials Bill thro’ on Thursday – tho’ only recd
Bill on Mon. p.m. Managed 2nd rdg. on Tuesd. But amendmts.
400
desired by Dpts. wh. will have to go back to H/C. Cutting it v.
fine.
H.M.
Sorry – but must get the Bill.
E.W.
Adjournment Day. Ques?
W.W.
11-12. Will allow St. Cttees. to sit.
4.
Levant States.
E.B.
Propose to sign Agreemt. to-day. Read it out.
Mtg. on 21/12 to agree p’mme of evacuation. Sufft. forces to remain
to guarantee security. Fr. m’while will retain forces re-grouped
in Lebanon.
This shd. end Fr. intrigues in Palestine & Iraq - & with Mufti. And at
same time gets independence of Levant States. Best I can do.
Propose to sign at 12 noon. Announce in Parlt. 3 p.m. Read out
communiqué.
J.J.L.
We are going to leave a token Force?
E.B.
May have to leave none. Depends on discn.
Agreed.
5.
Motions of Gratitude to War Leaders.
P.M.
Saw W.S.C. and A.E. Still v. keen. Asked wtr. we cdn’t take repve
figures.
Read out terms of Ismay’s drafts. Separate draft for U.S.
Commanders.
They will table it if we don’t. Awkward to refuse time for U.S.
Commrs. But cdn’t debate U.S. and not B. Commrs.
Doms. pt. avoided.
J.J.L.
Omission of mention of anyone connd with Burma will cause diffy.
A.
Protests fr. Austr. and N.Z. are certain.
P.L.
And possibly from India.
H.M.
E.B.
If we bless, we must do it ourselves. And trouble with own
b. benchers.
Suggest reasoned reply to W.S.C. askg. him in public interest not to
proceed. Letter we cd. publish. If they table none the less,
doubt if we shd. give time.
Do C.O.S. want it?
P.M.
No.
401
A.V.A.
Opportunities for Opposition on Service Estimates.
A.B.
Undignified to debate relative contns of individuals.
[ Exit W.W.
Enter Wilmot &
Barnes.
6.
Coal Mines (Nationalisation) Bill.
E.Sh.
This has bn. scrutinised by Socialising Ministers.
H.D.
We accept it, subject to further considn of some details.
E.Sh.
Directions – general, not related to day-to-day adminn.
Assets will be transferred to Bd. Divided a) undertakgs. b) ancillary.
And sub-division of b).
Terms of compensation. For undertakgs., referred to arbitration.
No figure suggested by my Dpt. (in spite of refces in Press) –
our discns with industry were not negotiations. Thought from
outset amount wd. be for a Tribunal.
Greene, Cohen & accountant agreed by both parties.
Difficulty about t. of r. This now resolved. Vid. C.P.337.
Arbitn can now proceed w’out waitg. for passage of Bill. May
have come to concln on global figure before Cttee Stage
concluded – in wh. event we cd. add it in a new Clause.
Assets under b). Compensn on basis of sale betwn. willing buyer
& seller. Subject to arbitration.
Safeguarding public interest. V. diff. Genl. terms may not be
effective – may be only façade. Decided in the end to have
2 statutory Consumers Councils.
The “industrial” Council will deal with the industry but may
represent to Minister.
The “domestic” Council has less teeth in it but may be of same
value.
Coal Commn – to be transferred bodily to Coal Board.
M. Welfare Commn. Part of its functions will be taken over by Bd:
rest with Commn, but it will come under control of M/F. & P.
Will lose its independ. status, wh. has given rise to some diffy.
They have bn. doing much wh. shd. be done by a good employer
or the l.a. – bldgs. particularly.
Much modernisation etc. Therefore Bill provides borrowg. powers
up to £150 m.
[Exit E.B.
n
Industry must pay its way. Must float the compens . Some
time before valuation complete. Eventually decided – for 2 yrs.
fr. resting date (= reasonable interim period) they will receive
½ of profit vice interest to wh. they wd. have bn. entitled on
global compensn sum.
Expect £7 m. annually, providing for amortisation.
Industry is makg. profit of £14 m. approx. Thus even on existg.
standards, the industry can more than pay its way - & may even
be able to reduce a little the price of coal.
402
Parly. deficit. Was anxious to get short Bill. Cd. have run easily to
200 clauses.
To do this have had to include 20 clauses empowerg. Minister
to make Regs. There may be Parly. trouble over that.
Bill = full of legal definitions. Shall want L.O.O. help.
This = bare skeleton: pivot on wh. re-organisation must turn. Can’t
indicate in Bill how we shall re-organise. Home to do that in
my 2nd Readg. speech.
P.M.
Level of salaries.
E.Sh.
Not in the Bill. Arguing that elsewhere.
Must have personnel before Bill goes thro’ - & must talk with them
re re-organisation. Must have the best men – otherwise this may
fail.
Chairman, Deputy & 7 Members. Want them all full-time. But want
all to be functional e.g. commercial, technician, welfare, labour.
Coming to L.P. Cttee to-morrow.
P.M.
Retail distribution?
E.Sh.
Party Cttee with T.U.C. thought this shd. be p’poned until after
dealg. with prodn.
Proposg. Bd. shd. do all tht. private enterprise now does – but will
expect Bd. to consult me on greater efficiency in distn, tho’
they won’t do it ‘selves.
A.V.A.
Optional transfer of assets. If owners are to have large options …..
E.Sh.
We are takg. main – some of subsidiary assets. All that is part of
coul. u. wl take over automatically. But subsidiary assets
as under b) above. Cases of doubt e.g. brick-works. We
mayn’t want it: but owner mayn’t be able to operate it w’out
the mine. Many other diff. cases – bound up with iron & steel
works: various farms also: these cases will be subject to
arbitn.
H.D.
Investmt. p’mme of industry. Shd. be positive provn in Bill tht.
Bd’s p’mme needs specific approval of Minister.
E.Sh.
Agree: thought it was provided for. - Cl. 18(2).
Agreed H.D. and E.Sh. to consider wtr. more is needed.
H.D.
Drafting points on finance still under considn.
H.D.
E.Sh.
On earlier point: want Ty. as well as Minister to be mentioned.
Accept Minister’s approval. But want to avoid charge that
nationalised industry will be hamstrung by Ty. control.
A.V.A.
Separate Consumer’s Councils. Will they sit independently?
403
Risk of damnifying domestic consumer to get industrial rates
cheaper. Can they meet jointly.
E.Sh.
Minister can bring them together. And I have power to make Regs.
on their procedure.
A.B.
How to amortise compn. Minister has bn. ingenious. But doesn’t
para 13 put him in unnecessarily restrictive position? x/ brings
him back to formal balance sheet. Stock redeemable. Psych.
problem: persuade miners they aren’t workg. to make profits
for coal-owners. This will make it look as tho’ they still are
doing so.
R.S.C.
It will be put as a debt to Ty. not to coal-owners.
E.Sh.
May have disasters leading to loss of revenue. We must explain why.
Or fr. our decn to reduce prices. We must lay facts before H/C.
H.D.
Considered separate coal stock or part/ Nat. Debt. We decided on
second. There are therefore no coal-owners save State. But
tho’ you can’t say wh. part of N.D. this is, there is a relationship
betwn. Coal Bd. & Ty. We are anxious to avoid any concealed
deficits. We must therefore make the position clear – and if
there is inefficiency we mustn’t cloak it.
A.B.
y/ in para. 13 is inconsistent with merger in N. Debt.
Agree pay fr. N. Funds. But is intimate relationship necessary?
H.D.
This is 1st large socialising measure. More to follow. [Return of E.B.
Can’t agree to undertake to follow any system wh. fails to show
clearly wtr. a natd industry is paying is way or not
E.Sh.
Anxious to have such a safeguard.
A.B.
V. weighty arguments on other side. Want to get natd industry away
from conceptions of capitalist balance sheet. H.D. says that is
necessary for good business. It isn’t – good costing methods may
give you the same safeguards.
R.S.C.
A.B. wdn’t object to Cl. 20(2) but to 20(1)(a), wh. gives direct link
with what is requd for compensation. It is the link between
earnings and interest on compensation.
H.M.
Isn’t it bound to be so?
R.S.C.
Better put in the general language of Cl. 20(2). To avoid
psychological diffy.
Agreed: examine language.
404
H.M.
a)
b)
E.Sh.
All Regns made subject to neg. resoln. Aren’t there some for
wh. no resoln is needed.
This Bill has no provn for compensatg. displaced employees.
I agree with that but think attentn shd. be drawn to it.
On b) I’m fortified by Rpt. on Gas Industry. Read extract. Posn wd.
be Coal Bd. cd. do as it thought right.
Bill approved – subject to points raised.
[Enter Listowel.
7.
Civil Service Leave at Christmas.
H.D.
Invited E.E.B. to speak on this.
E.E.B.
Read from Minute.
a) Main ques. = shall we go back to full leave in 1946.
b) Extra 3 days. 2 diffies (i) repercussions on industrials.
(ii) really busy people cdn’t take
advantage.
I wd. therefore propose, as alternative, promise to extend e.g. to 30
days’ leave for 1946 & suggest extra days at Xmas in anticipation
of 1946 leave.
H.D.
We need to shut up the shop over Xmas.
P.M.
Better done by Ministers talking to senior officials & setting an
example.
J.W.
Cdn’t confine it to H.Q. Must go to out-stations. Then trouble at
once with industrials. V. diff. therefore to close for a week.
P.M.
Agree no general rule. Each Minister to consider position of his own
senior officials. No public announcement.
H.D.
And no mtgs of Cab. or its Cttees.
Agreed
8.
[Enter Winster & Strachey
Exit. Lawson. Listowel
British Air Services.
P.M.
Complained of short notice.
H.M.
Ditto. But delays in the Dpt. Want more speed.
W.
T.W.
Circulated earlier draft – to colleagues mainly interested & later to
L.P.’s group.
Why can’t Dakotas be civilianised.
W.
Yes – now recognise tht. there is authy to buy them.
405
E.B.
Vitally important to get on with this.
Cd. Cab. take this first item on Monday - & stand by their decision.
P.M.
W. Paper – must be presented when?
Agreed: consider Monday 11 a.m.
E.B.
Comments to be commd to W. before Monday.
Exit Wilmot. Barnes
Winster.
9. Service Pay & Allowances.
H.D.
Expld posn. P.M. said Cab. shd. consider basic rate.
The concept is: build on basic rate equated (with allowances etc.)
to Civil wage of 89/= p.w.
Took note with approval.
406
17th December 1945
C.M. 63 (45)
1.
W.
British Air Services.
Earlier draft considered by interested Dpts. & by Socialising Cttee.
Suggestns from H.M. & C.O. will accept & incorporate.
M/Supply at end II “ it is, now desirable tht. major overhauls & repairs be
undertaken only by aircraft industry who can thereby be kept closely
in touch with pract. opns of their products.
Pre-war: manufars. overcharged. Operators found it cheaper to do work
selves. Engines, airframes & present practice & overhaul one part
after each flight.
Suggest: “ Adv. will be taken of suitable facilities offered by aircraft &
engine industries”. And I will consult with M/Supply.
H.M.
M/S. is on a real point. Need to keep industry alive & bring them up
against faults etc., Better to say “ normally thro’ the trade’: loophole
if industry doesn’t play the game.
R.S.C.
For opns of aircraft industry, v. important tht. lessons of operns are harmed
by the industry. Repair organs of operatg. organn can’t have same
facilities for research etc. Example: piston rings: put right by use of
dif. materials when it came to R. Royce.
W.
Manfis. appt. liaison offrs. with operatg. cos.
R.S.C.
That doesn’t do it. Detailed examn of thousands of piston rings by R.R.
produced the results.
P.M.
Why put detail in W. Paper – unless mandatory its unnecessary.
R.S.C.
Nec. only because of what is in para. II. Omit whole para. if you like.
A.
It is there because of safety considn – maintenance & overhaul is key to
safety.
Substitute general assurance tht. M/C.A. will see to it tht. proper
arrangements are made for maintenance & overhaul.
P.M.
Ques. – as on para. 12 – is what will Minry do to see to it? “expected” is v.
weak.
Operations will be required – in accordance with a scheme to be concerted
by M/C.A. & M/ Supply.
“Required” also in para. 12.
E.Sh.
Para. 6 (iii) – may be prejudicial to coal. When we say it is desirable.
Does (iii) add anything to (i), (ii) and (iv)?
P.M.
(iii) is a bad reason: the other 3 are good example.
407
H.M.
W. is anticipating a strong argument con. New industry shdnt’t be
entrusted to a single public monopoly. We are therefore havg. 3.
P.M.
But (iii) is only negative: (i) & (ii) have it implicitly.
W.
Put in (iii) because B.O.A.C. intriguing for sole control.
P.M.
You cd. add “managerial groups” to (iii).
Giving the opportunity …. in (ii).
Agreed.
Individual Appointments
P.M.
Shd. not be discussed in Cabinet. But get rid of Critchley.
W.
On what grounds? He wouldn’t go quietly. He was vindicated by
Coalition Govt.
R.S.C.
Ask for resignation of whole Bd. Then your hands are free.
A.V.A.
First consider whtr you have another choice who can do the job as well.
W.
B.O.A.C. has operated successfully, safely & at a profit – under his
control.
T.W.
Determine the ques. on basis of his efficiency.
Para. 23
S
Looks like a trading arrangement. – last sentence. Alternative words
suggested & accepted.
Agreed.
H.D.
a) Para 17 (b) – as shown in mns.
b) airfields vice aerodromes
c) Prestwick. Para. 12. As in ms. To avoid grudging
impression.
E.Sh.
Para 17 (b)? necessary to refer at all to subsidy.
H.D.
No need to humbug – there will have to be some.
E.Sh.
Why assume you will have to?
H.D.
It will be necessary – at any rate on other 2 Corpns
A.
Why have // in 16(b)? “More detailed”
408
}
}Agreed
}
}
Agreed.
White Paper to be presented this week. Announce by L.P. Wed. in reply to
P.Q. Both Houses.
Interim Arrangements.
W.
Para. 15 (c) Hartley is willing.
P.M.
Don’t discuss apptmts in Cab. Discuss with P.M. and L.P. (Socialising
grp.)
S.
110 Wing: we are v. anxious to hand over.
W.
Easier to abort now we can buy the Dakotas.
A.
This doesn’t include Pacific. Recent diffy. in getting P.M. of N.Z. across
Pacific. Unless we can start there U.S. will get in. Aust. & N.Z. want
some service started to give excuse for keeping U.S. out.
W.
Working on this with B.O.A.C. now. Extemporise with Lancastrians &
flying-boats.
A.
Some public statement shd. be made soon.
H.M.
Cab. shd. approve proposal to enlarge B.O.A.C. Bd. temporarily with
people to look after other services. Then move them off on to Bds.
of the new Corpns.
{Exeunt: Barnes, Wilmot, Winster
{Enter. Listowel. Williams, N.B.
2. Broadcasting Policy.
H.M.
Based on review of work of W.’s Cttee under Coalition Govt.
a) Ministerial responsibility. Better not discuss to-day - cound with
future of imformn services. Refer this ques. to Cttee workg. that
out.
b) No need for public enquiry àla Ullswater. Govt. decide &
announce. May hve to be debate.
c) We recommend continuance of B.B.C. monopoly.
d) Remuneration of Chairman, May be excessive. Depends on
balance between Chairman & D.G.
P.M.
Do you want part-time Directors – or full-time functional Directors.
H.M.
e) Part-time members. Functions v. light. Supposed to listen &
discuss p’gmmes. Not takg. enough interest in estab. & finances. But
think it wd. be bad to have full-time functional Bd. What is needed
409
is outside watching by independents. If so, £1.000 p.a. is too much.
£500 or at outside £750. The real basis is “fee”.
f) European Services. Done good work (P.W.D.) in war. F.O.
believe shd. be contd. R. & U.S. are doing much. We concluded
must continue. They are expensive & can’t be charged to home
listeners.
Means we can’t have as many Reg. wave-lengths at home. But there
can’t be at same level as National. B.B.C. accept our recommns on
this pt.
Reith wd. reduce them still further.
g) B.B.C. outspendg. its budget. Used to bring in money: now Ty. is
subsidising. Not all on foreign. Of £14m, home costs £71/4M and
income only about £5M. Pity the licence fee wasn’t raised durg. war.
But agree tht. deficit shdn’t continue to be carried by Ty. & support
immediate increase of licence fee to £1.
Action
(i)
(ii)
(iii)
No need for public statement until we decide on min.responsibility. (a) above.
Announce increase in licence fee.
Tell B.B.C. Govt. agree to plan for European Services.
P.M.
I was member of Ullswater Cttee & Coalition Govt. Cttee.
a) Don’t agree suggtn Reg. b’castg. unimportant. They can do a good
deal – h’to given little money. Reith is by nature a centraliser. This
is only answer to criticism of B.B.C. monopoly. Want variety &
controversy.
b) Support increase in fee.
R.S.C.
Payment by instalments – for O.A.P. etc.
P.M.
Consider that.
c) Overseas. Tie up with Inf. Services.
d) Governors. Has bn. v. ineffective. Old people – not sufficiently
Labour in view. Fees: may have to pay more to get energy & youth.
Want a Bd. tht. won’t let it tick over under D.G. V. dangerous.
You do want political people.
R.S.C.
Shdn’t D.G. be on the Board. Like a Managing Director.
H.M.
Sooner not.
I want the Bd. to do a job. But must decide whr a Bd. of executives or
watchers & criticisers and if it’s latter I can’t see £1000 p.a. in it.
Are M.P.’s to be barred? Used to be: but W.S.C. broke into it.
H.D.
£3M. uncover in 1935 & they paid their way.
Drifted into sponging on Ty. B.B.C. must be put back on budget
balancing basis, or home services Fee therefore shd. go up to £1 at
once. On instalments, no need to go below 2 payments of 10/-.
410
L.
Wd. like to examine admin. diffies of instalments.
E.Sh.
Don’t let’s take rigid Ty view on this.
Over seas – £31/4M. – proposed to put on F. O. Vol. Then £1M on income
tax – take note of that. Television £2M – must be prepd to subsidise
experiments.
Agree to it earlier for C. aviation. Then it’s not such a bad balance sheet.
`B’castg. isn’t commercial. Cultural to some extent. State, if admits
responsibility for providg. it, must be prepd to pay for it.
First thing Lab. Govt. does is to raise the fee. Hard on O.A.P. & poor
people.
P.M.
Its 31/2d. a week – compare that with cinema charges.
E.Sh.
But it’s cultural - & ;you can’t be logical about it. Opera etc., as
subsidised abroad.
What does it matter if Ty. pays £1 or 11/2M. for this cultural service.
E.W.
a) M/Ed. shd. be included on any Cttee on this ques. qua culture.
b) Disagree with E.Sh. Socialised services must pay their way.
c) Reg. Programmes. At present largely relay Nat. p’mmes. Better
to have fewer and better. Tho’ agree with boosting Reg. system &
strengthening it.
d) Wavelengths. Interf. with ships at sea. Trouble often arises fr.
age of apparatus in ships. And G.P.O. won’t chase the ships. N.B.
supported this.
J.J.L.
Regional devolution. Worse than “Londonising” – its “Oxfordising” a
professional.
No life in national.
Para. 4. How do we complain of misuse. of offl. informn?
P.M.
To B.B.C.
T.W.
Don’t support further reduction of Regions.
P.M.
Hope W. Country isn’t going to become B’ham.
P.L.
Factual accuracy of B.B.C. news – wh. is regarded abroad as “Govt.”
news. Examples of inaccuracy. Want it tightened up. Don’t know
how.
P.M.
Deal with that on Informn Services & Foreign Services.
E.W.
e) Para. 17 “W’in next year or two”. Durg. that time no. appliances
will be coming on to market. Need therefore to get this requirement.
soon.
411
A.S.C.
A public statement tht. powers will be taken will ensure tht. manufrs. will
add it to new design.
Agreed: P.M.G. & M/S. to consider.
European Service.
H.M.
Need for early Decision that then shd be one.
N.B.
After liberation gt. drop in listening – but thereafter it picked up again.
People have come to regard B.B.C. as true news. Has gt. authy. Instrument
for brkg. a censorship.
Urgent because best staff are slipping away, esp. the best of them.
A.V.A.
Ships at sea – high-power transmission is dangerous to life at sea: and will
take years to get the apparatus improved. A break of 3 mins. for
each 1/2hr. wd. be valuable.
Agreed: An European Service is to be maintained.
Fee
J.
Is cost of television included?
H.M.
Yes: but there is a special licence fee.
P.M.
Even so, it won’t cover all the cost. £2M. cost and £.05M Fees.
R.S.C.
The £2M is mainly capital expenditure.
H.D.
A fee of £1 is needed to meet expend’re. w’out television.
C.E.
Shd. we not examine £7.20M. for home b’castg.
Some of the fees are v. excessive. Wd. like to feel this had bn scrutinised.
Can’t support £1 fee until satisfied on that.
E.Sh.
Secret payments to B.B.C. favourites.
P.L.
What right have we to charge house listener for services not provided to
him?
Fee of £1 wd. yield £10M – far in excess of real house b’castg. cost.
A.
Support £1. This service is egregiously cheap.
Fee shd. cover not only current cost but large margins for experiment &
developments.
Investigate the £7.2M if you like.
A.B.
Support £1. Tho’ our informn seems to be inadequate. Provided there is
sust. increase in exp’ve on Regional p’mmes. These p’mmes will
replenish the “gathering grounds”. The more centralised & general,
412
the less colourful & alive. Particular & local v. general & abstract.
Metropolitan weight on B.B.C. is excessive.
P.L.
15/- would cover the cost.
H.M.
Pity it wasn’t raised durg. the war.
Soften the blow by 15/- in 1946.
P.M.
Wd. only prolong the controversy.
E.Sh.
Raise it as fr. beginning of 1947?
M/Inf
£1 will = £10M. £91/2M. estimate for next year. Will have to be said tht.
fee is to cover sound & television at home.
15/- won’t cover it. And you must have some margin.
Agreed: Increase £1. But scrutinise expenditure.
R.S.C.
a) paras. 13-14. Hope B.B.C. salaries won’t reduce to C.S. levels.
H.M.
No
R.S.C.
b) Re-diffusion.. Will grow: thus, don’t delay takg. over. P.M.G. to report
P.M. *
Other ques. in memo. to be discussed later.
[Exit Listowel. P.M.]
3.
B.U.F. Re-emergence of the Fascist Movement.
C.E.
D.R. lapsed. My powers now limited to action designed or likely to create
breaches of peace.
P.M.
Must keep close watch. Risk of anti-semitism.
C.E.
Even that is not per se illegal.
T.W.
Body of people advocatg. Fascism. Is that legal? Why fight for 6 years to
put this down & then allow it to be advocated?
C.E.
Not against the law.
E.Sh.
Are we not being too Liberal? Suppose mtg. held in secret & there
advocated changes subversion of public policy.
Shdn’t Police have access to such mtgs.?
Risk of organised movemt. developing before we know it.
Presence of R.A.F. personnel in support of Mosley shd. be closely
watched.
L.O.O shd. examine the posn.
413
A.B.
Was it true tht. photographer was beaten up outside the Hall. If so. what
were the Police doing?
[Exit P.L.]
N.B.
Many countries re-establishing democracy where F. parties much stronger.
What we do here may be model for them.
J.J.L.
Hope Cab. will have special opportunity to examine report on this.
H.M.
Ask P.M. to set up small Cttee to look into this ques. – with Jowitt in Chair
& Home Secy. a member.
3.
Indonesia.
N.B.
In statement. last week I defended burning of a village.
Now S.A.C.S.E.A.’s policy to have like reprisals for like offences. Major:
a girl – swimming in village water supply.
Rpt. of a 3rd village being burned.
Will be said – Lidice over again.
Suggest. – either full statement in justification
or modify policy.
H.M.
Policy shd. be considered by Defence Cttee.
Agreed.
R.S.C.
Hope this policy won’t be continued.
N.B.
But what is McNeil to say this pers in reply to supplementaries?
H.M.
Put his diffices – our people suffering etc. Ask for notice of the new case.
J.J.L.
N.B’s statement other night cd. be advertised.
414
20th December, 1945
C.M. 64 (45)
1. Broadcasting Policy
H.M.
Daily b’cast of H/C. procdgs.
P.M.
By Pressman – not M.P.
A.
Must be impartial.
J.
A/c of Br. Woods debate in H/Lds. was ill reported.
P.M. y./
This is evce of need for strong Bd.
H.M. x/.
A. shd. send for responsible man in B.B.C. and talk to him about this
reprtg.
R.S.C.
Unfortunate tht. Boothby shd. have done this Week in Parlt. They shd.
have swapped him over.
H.M.
Can over this. Our list of Labour spkers. not v. good. The man for the
v/Censure week wasn’t good: but awkward to shove him out. Risk
of Parly. trouble.
H.D.
Why not general rule that man who took prom. part shdn’t do it.
E.Sh.
Diff. to change at last minute. Real ques. is: B.B.C. shd. be truly
impartial. When b’cast is made, people regard it as havg. Govt.
blessing. We must see that our case is got across thro’ B.B.C. –
especially now we can’t get it over in Press. Make it clear to B.B.C.
that our case must be put over.
P.L.
The H/C. b’casts are in my view impartial & v. good.
Agreed as at x/. And find out who there is editing B.B.C.
as at y/.
T.W.
10.15. p.m. is rather late.
Para. 3(iii) of 344.
Agreed
A.
Overseas costs not to be on votes of separate overseas Dpts.
H.M.
Will turn on ques. of Govt. Publ. Services. May go on Ty. Vote, on
understandg. that separate Ministers defend policy.
P.M.
Postpone decn. Much to be said for leaving this out G.P.O. vote.
R.S.C.
Point is – who will answer P.Q.’s
415
P.M.
Postpone this issue.
Para. 3 (iii)
H.M.
This is going well – France is co-operating well.
N.B.
Para. 51. Many ques. requiring interm. agreemt. Recommend early B.
initiative on U.N.O.
Remuneration of Board.
H.M.
To official Cttee – and then to L.P. Cttee.
P.L.
Para. 32.: add Burma.
Wise B’casting.
Memo of P.M.G. approved.
2.
Ag.
Political Broadcasting.
Agreed report.
Para 1.
P.M.
“Views of B.B.C.” On what? Text, time, or policy?
R.S.C.
Cd. they say “we don’t think this an appropit time for Govt. b’cast”. V.
heavy weather there to invoke Cl. 4.
P.M.
If this means only consultn on techn. points, that shd. be made clear.
H.M.
On the other hand, they surely have a right to be consulted. They have a
responsibility to the public. They must be reasonable, of course, but
they surely shd. have an opportunity to express their views.
A.B.
Mustn’t manipulate B.B.C. or you will undermine its authority, qua
independent.
P.M.
Must not put B.B.C. in posn where they can
A.B.
? “make the necessary arrangements with the B.B.C.” vice[]
Agreed
E.Sh.
Is it the rule that Ministers shd. consult P.M. before b’casting”
P.M.
Yes.
416
Para. 2.
P.M.
What are the rights of the Opposition?
Putting these things in black & white is awkward.
Want this done “thro’ usual channels”. not by someone in B.B.C.
A.B.
Suppose a Minister gives an objective statement and Opposn follow with
outspoken reply.
P.M.
Put it in future – “where it is proposed…. B.B.C. shall discuss with 2
Parties whr opportunity shd. be given for reply.”
H.M.
Beware of totalitarianism.
Govrs. of B.B.C. are responsible people. Govt. shldn’t intervene.
E. Sh really is reserg. to Govt. right to judge in own cause.
P.M.
That’s not what I’m suggesting – I merely want this done thro’ usual
channels to ensure that controversial ques. are identified by those
competent to do so.
R.S.C.
All I want is to substitute “controversial” for “w’in the region of Party
Politics”.
H.M.
You want both.
J.
B.B.C. shall enter into discns with repves of Parties to see whr there shd. be
a reply.
P.M.
Yes: + puttg. into future.
A.B.
Don’t involve B.B.C. in “usual channels” Let appte Dept. be moved by
B.B.C. to consult thro’ “usual channels”.
H.M.
Doesn’t this discussion show un-wisdom of precise agreement in writing.
R.S.C.
Yes – treat this as minutes of a mtg. not a concordat.
Para. 3.
Para. 4.
Agreed. delete: covered by para. 2.
Agreed delete: covered by para. 2.
A.G.
Para. 5.
This is to cover case of ex-M.P. wishing to initiate.
P.M.
Do we propose to give right to Oppn to spk. weekly – with oblign on us to
reply.
R.S.C.
“Any other Party” and tack it on to para. 2.
P.M.
This impinges on H/C. And throws Govt. on defensive.
N.B.
Series of pol. b’casts between elections” – once a month.
417
P.M.
Different issue.
Add sentence to para. 2. – merely ensuring tht. Govt. are told if they
propose to accept.
Para. 6.
Can go, as consequential on omission of para. 5.
Para. 7.
Agreed
P.M.
Para. 8. Goes too far. No objn to 2nd Rdg. on B.B.C. after 2nd Rdg. in
H/C.
P.M.
This is otiose.
R.S.C.
It is sufficiently covered by 1 & 2.
N.B.
Don’t agree with “notes”.
Agreed: omit para. 8.
Para. 9
P.M.
Don’t think this is right.
H.M.
I do. Otherwise B.B.C. is made instrument of pact between Parties.
P.M.
Leave this out.
1. contd. Broadcasting Policy.
Licence Fee by instalments.
L.
500 extra staff and £1/4 addl. cost.
Can get the staff by the time is needed.
R.S.C.
Do you assume everyone will take ½ yearly.
L.
Assume 75%.
[Exit C.E.]
P.M.
Don’t agree – more like 10%.
Let us go ahead with £1 and see how we go on.
A.S.C.
Doubtful.
H.M.
White Paper in due course, before Charter received.
[Exit. Listowil, Wms
418
[Enter: Hynd, Wilson,
E.Wilk, Barnes, Smith,
P.L., Creech Jones.]
3.
German Prisoners of War.
G.A.I.
As in memo.
If accepted, increase in allocn to Dpts will be possible. 430.000 total on
this basis.
Para. (3) – add S of S. for Air for he can help with accommn – possibly up
to 12.000.
H.D.
Demobilisation shd. give even more room.
S.
If we get our allocn of P.O.W. we can speed up demobn
a. We can accommodate 30.000.
J.J.L.
This involves U/W.T, M/W., F.O. Big movement involved. Special Cttee
seems to be needed.
G.A.I.
We have close contact at official level. There is a Cttee already.
H.M.H.
R. now satisfied with Monty’s arrangements for P.O.W. in Germany.
Para. 7(2): 165.000 can now be assured minimum.
B.S.
In food trades B. workers won’t work with G. P.O.W.
G.A.I.
Consultn with Unions – can get over this.
A.
Canada House to be single channel.
Agreed.
N.B.
a)
Norwegian Govt. wants to be rid of these P.O.W. Don’t like
guarding them.
P.M.
Tell them they must.
N.B.
b)
G. p.o.w. in U.S. are v. Nazi. Want these screened.
Agreed.
J.B.H.
Austrians shd. be repatriated.
P.M..
The black ones shdn’t.
[Exit G.A.I. and Invitees for item 3.]
3. Trusteeship – Territories now under Mandate.
C.J.
As in memo,
419
A.
We are disturbed. Austr. concerned with Nauru. Smuts re-action vs
Tanganika.
If this is put out at beginning R. will want to have a share. Smuts wdn’t
wish that. Nor wd. we.
P.M.
Prefer to discuss this with Dom. repres when they arrive.
E.Sh.
Commd to “trusteeship” system – I gather. But must consider econ. links
with U.K. – not touched on in this memo. Cdn’t assent until I knew
whr economic alignment wd. be.
P.M.
But mandate system prevented any economic link.
E.Sh
Then is it clear tht. if diff. princ. applied to adjacent territories econom.
integration will not be weakened.. Tang. is in economic bloc with
Kenya.
C.J.
W. Paper or inter-terr. organns in E. Africa last week. Made it clear tht.
this fits in with trusteeship plan.
Further safeguardg. clause in trust. agreement. Better than old Mand.
arrangemt. wh. was absolutely “open door”.
A.
I am not objectg. on merits – merely on tactics. Want opport. to negotiate
it first with Doms.
N.B.
Certainly there shd. be prior consultn with Doms.
You can’t stop R. raising awkward pts.
Right place to make descn is in the Assembly.
C.J.
Time factor – must get decln in time to avoid delaying apprut Trusteeship
Council.
P.M.
No difficulty on merits: but must discuss first with Dom. repves.
Discuss with Doms. repves and bring up again.
420
20th December, 1945 at 4.pm.
C.M. 65 (45)
1.
Moscow Discussions.
Worthy 39 & 40 handed to all present.
P.M.
Diffics. Atom at end/Agenda & Persia not on Agenda at all because M.
linking it with Greece etc.
Treaty Procedure. R. thesis interested Powers propose & others call in to
sign.
We have opposed this. Doms. & all smaller nations will dislike - & might
refuse to sign. We have told F.O. not to give way on this.
Agreed.
P.M.
Next, which states shd. come in? Those wh. have taken action part in war
v. State concerned. M. objects to incldg. India because not Sov.
State: & says if India then Baltic States shd. be included. B. ready to
sacrifice India.
At. S. Fran. compromised by admittg. Ukraine & Byclo. R.
E.B. inclined to admit B. States to get India in.
Don’t see how we cd. accept India’s exclusion. Doesn’t matter much
if we admit B. States.
Don’t care about Byrnes – he’s always letting us down.
Suggest therefore support inclusion of India: give E.B. free hand re Baltic
States.
A.
Applc in ’44 we promised to consult Doms. re admn of B. States.
N.B.
India internat. entity since 1919. Has dipl. repres & makes own Treaties.
We cd. argue India is far beyond U.K. & B. Russia.
If we must in end recogn. B. States somethg. to be said for havg. them in
now as units of U.S.S.R.
A.
Our agreement. with Doms. was, when U.K. & B. Russia were brought in,
tht. we wd. consult Doms. before admitted any more as units of U.S.S.R.
P.M.
Let E.B. consult Dom. repres in Moscow.
Insist on inclusion of India.
Give E.B. free hand re Baltic States, subject to consultn with Doms.
thro’ repres at Moscow.
[Enter Buchanan.
2.
Control Council for Japan.
P.M.
One to represent. Austr. object.
A.
We’ll never get 2. Let’s be content with 1, & let it be Australia.
Agreed.
421
3.
National Health Service
Out of room for 30 minutes.
A……
G.P. Service.
e) Danger of allowg. drs. in pbl. service to take private patients.
f) Condn tht. drs. shd. work at Health Centre, put in specific hrs. of
attendance. Lead to full-time service – but agree not to force the
pace.
Ancillary services. Diff. to get proper developmt., w’out more attractive
system of recruitg. & traing. nurses. health visitors etc.
P.11. Charges by specialists. Don’t know how far Minister will be able to
go. I wd. like to require spec. to be well paid & prohibit them fr.
takg. paying patients in nursing homes. Need to stop nursing homes
tied to Surgeons. Have instead paid beds in hospitals. Aim shd. be
to stamp out nursing homes.
A.V.A.
How then wd. you avoid compensation. Some homes are owned by
doctors.
A.B.
Squeeze them out by creating better service. Don’t prohibit them.
A.
General scheme – v. ingenious. Misgivings re G.P.’s – make basic salary
as large a propn as possible and work twds. elimination of private practice.
H.M.
Expd my views earlier on hospitals – and Cabinet took the opposite view.
This memo. follows that decision. No point therefore in my saying
much now.
Para. 5. A big list. Much adminc diffy.
Dilemma: run as State instns & local initiative cannot be allowed.
…………… Out of room again………..
Finance. v. big figures. Taxpayer pre. war paid only £3.4 M. Goes to
£115.3M. Insurance Fund goes up also. These figures will increase –
esp. with local adminn with little control.
Discussion. Unwise to throw this at heads of l.d.’s and give them no time
to argue. A battle with all l.a.’s plus the other interests is v. serious.
And this = field of service wh. is traditionally l. govt.
You will be forced to give them time.
Face the facts therefore. Waste of time to begin drafting before
negotiations are at an advanced stage. Danger of blocking other
Bills. Propose therefore tht. drafting be deferred until after further
decns of Cabinet.
Want to go on record – as apprehensive re amount of opposition this will
attract.
H.D.
Broadly in favour of scheme
422
But para. 53 admits estimates of costs are only provisional.
Must therefore reserve my posn on finance until closer estimates ready &
we can also see linkage with other things eg. block grant.
Present estimate envisages gt. rise of Exchequer expendtr.
[Exit Shinwell]
Coaln W. Paper £54 – 132. M. Committed therefore to all save £13M.
Diffce; however is big switch from rates to taxes. Cdn’t therefore be
commd until I can relate it to block grant. Awkward redn of my mass
of manoeuvre on the block grant.
Ask therefore tht. no financial dicn be taken until I can report on block
grant.
Must also consider whr. we shd. tone down amount of compenn to doctors.
Para. 10. We are commd to Nat. Service. Don’t want too much rope
therefore for Reg. Bds. Nat. Budget must be retained. Any local
excess wd. have to be appn centrally.
Also wd. have to institute comparative costing.
Means central direction intervention and meticulous control.
Reg. bodies will be spending national money.
Broad lines are right: but can’t accept financial implications at present.
G.B.
M of S. S. supports this scheme subject to pts. of difference.
[Exit Addison]
G.N.
In Scotland we have run 3 State hospitals for 40 years & we don’t share
L.P.’s fear on this ques.
Differences:
a) ambulances. We wd. attach to hospitals.
b) health centres. We wd. run by State via l.a.
c) regions. 5- of wh. Inverness wdn’t be linked to teaching
hospital
Don’t expect opposn fr. l.a.’s – for main l.a.’s now controlled by Labour.
The opposition in Scotland will come mainly from vol. hospitals.
On convalescent & nursing; homes we wd. like to go further than M/H.
P.L.
R. Infirmary Edinb.
G.B.
Support H.M. completely.
And H.D. won’t get away with his attempt to link this with revision of
block grant.
There will be combined l.a. opposn to hospital proposal.
Scheme is bold & imagination = & in a perfect world wd. command
support.
In this world it will provoke opposn.
E.W.
We are commd as a Party to some scheme for a Nat. Health Service.
This is the best scheme so far.
423
It gets over the main medical objn – viz. against being put under l.a.
Reg Bds. shd. go far to meet l.a. objns to Whitehall bureaucracy.
Important tht. Cab. shd. approve this in principle before negotiations
begin.
Coalition scheme was put fwd. inviting criticism. The well paid dr.
put up his objns as tho’ on behalf of profession as a whole.
P.M.
On finance – we must have report from Ty.
A.B.
Finance is contingent on genl. principle of scheme. It follows fr. them.
What of cost of alternatives – e.g. pumping money into vol. hospital.
P.M.
Apart fr. bulk sum, how will it be raised? Much of this = income tax.
H.D.
It’s not the total – it’s switchover to taxes.
A.B.
RE opposition. Here is our chance to do something big. Are we to
sacrifice that chance for fear of parish pump? But unless I have firm
support of Cab. I’m beaten from the start.
G.A.I.
Increased contns in N.H.I. scheme wd. be easier to get over if we cd. say
improved Health Service is coming along.
A.B.
Must get on with this Bill if we are to meet N.H.I. dates.
Don’t want to postpone prepn of Bill until we see results of negotns. Those
modificns needn’t affect Bill, which will be in general terms.
P.M. X/
First let us see Heads of Bill – so tht. we can see what is legn & what is
adminve action.
T.W.
Better spend time in negotns than more in Standing Cttee.
J.
Start on Bill.
A.G.
Disagree. Don’t want to waste draftsmen time.
Premature prepn of Bills doesn’t make for rapid progress in the end.
P.M.
Agreed: repeated x/.
A.B.
Does that mean we can’t have Bill this Session?
H.M.
Can’t say that yet.
A.B.
Cab. trying to do too much. What will Cab. discuss on the Heads of legn?
H.M.
We want to know about progress of negotiations. Report on that at same
time.
A.B.
Can’t agree to Cab. reviewing heads of Bill - & modifying them in light of
opposn.
424
It will be only in detail that I will give way.
P.M.
H.M.
Want to see how much is legn & how much Regs & adminn – want to
know extent of Bill before we finally decide whr it shd. go fwd. this
Session.
i) A.B. cd. begin negotiation with l.a.’s.
ii) A.B. cd. begin preparing instns to Counsel.
Cab. cd. perhaps consider (ii) in light of (i).
} pari passu
}
A.B.
When I start these negotns I shall make up my mind to concede nthg.
H.D.
And no promise to be held out of any alteration in rate burden.
A.V.A.
Concerned at Cab. approvg. separate schemes on merits w’out genl.
picture of total budgetary posn. Concerned re taxation yield. Bonus
to be a drop from war-time levels of yield. Ty. shd. put Cab. a
general picture of total commitments & possibility of revenue to
meet them when war-time yields drop.
H.D.
Rehearsed the various commitments.
V. broadly, every time you raise social expend’re you reduce chance of
any further substantial tax redn in this Parlt.
If this is a rush & not a steady pace you may be able to balance the budget
at end of this Parl. – but w’out any tax redn.
P.M.
We must discuss soon how much of a man’s income we can spend for him.
425
1st January, 1946.
C.M. 1(46).
E.B.
1.
Moscow Discussions.
a)
Peace Treaties. Arising from brkdown of C.F.M.
B.’s proposal for confce accepted in principle – right to discuss
& amend - & final revision of texts by 4-3-2. Powers.
Diffy. over Doms. & India. M. suggd 3 Baltic States if India
included. Decided to risk aceptg. B. States, wh. put U.S.
in trouble. This pulled U.S. up in their monkey tricks.
B talked with Stalin: & M. then w’drew B. States &
accepted India.
Awaitg. reply fr. France.
Earlier publn of this concordat was due to U.S. political wishes.
U.S. in too much of a hurry & not suff. considerate of
others.
U.S. Delegn seemed conscience-stricken re India. Apologised
to us for Byrnes.
Far Eastern Commn & Allied Council in Tokyo.
There had bn. much prev. consultn between U.S. & Russia.
Obvious tht. we cd. only get 4 Powers on A.C. Clear we cdn’t
get separate repn for Australia. Concluded I cdn’t hold up
US-R. settlement on this a/c. Therefore urged arrangemt.
by wh. one represented, not Commonwealth, but U.K.
India. Aust. & N.Z. But noticeable tht. Austr. have bn.
finding diffy. in gettg. Forces for Japan – Evatt may be
ahead of his publ. opinion.
Korea. U.S. proposed indep. State in 5 yrs. Two commands
are choking economic integrity of the country. Luckily
doesn’t concern us. Agreed to put to U.N.O. 4-power
trusteeship, to co-operate in bringing in independent State.
Good thing to let Austr. be Comm. repve on this trust.
China. B. put on Agenda w’drawal of R. troops fr. Manchuria:
M. countered – w’drawal U.S. troops from N. China.
Appeared Ch. Govt. ad invited R. troops to remain, beyond
agreed date. In N. China Comm. Army – U.S. said
500.000: Stalin said 50.000. U.S. said when Chang sent up
to disarm Jap. they were stopped by Communists. R didn’t
mind. U.S. sent in 50.000 marines: & were ready to send
in Ch. by air.
Appd R. had agreed with Ch. to be out of Manch. by 3/12.
But didn’t want to go until all U.S. out of N. China.
Then suggd put Comm. into Chang’s Govt. & get truce
thereby. Document put fwd. suggd Comm. shd. come in
throughout – not only central but local govt. units. I
opposed: & at end agreed Comm. shd. be only in central
Govt. Embarrassing to discuss w’out China.
Balkans. R. put in Grose Govt. in Rum. King refused to recogn.
Grose & they have bn. carrying on unconstitutionally. Tr.
b)
c)
d)
e)
426
f)
at Potsdam made unilateral decln tht. U.S. wd. never
recogn. Gr. Govt. or Bulg. Govt. R. have gone on w’out it.
Fr. our informn appears Rum. on edge of collapse. A.C.C.
being asked now to invite U.S. & U.K. to avert the
collapse – tho’ we didn’t strip the country. After long
discussions – agreement re Rumania. None re Bulgaria.
When we met to sign & I had signed U.K. & U.S. version –
R. not ready: when it arrived M. said delay was due to their
havg. included a Bulg. settlement. They then produced that. It
was not acceptable: M. then produced an alternative which,
after discn was accepted.
I had prev. concluded it wasn’t poss. to delay much longer
recognising these Govts. I wanted to get civil avn,
consulates etc., going – to build up relations. I didn’t
therefore object to this settlement. No Balkan Party is pure.
We saved posn of King – in Rum. agreemt. Commn is now on the
spot.
Recognn won’t be long delayed.
Persia. Long talk with Stalin. Believe R. had started the old
game of pushing their policy by infiltration. What they
want is to come down at back of Turkey: then they’ll press
the Straits issue.
I asked our Amb. Tehran up & asked wht. is alternative. R. have
70.000 troops in Azerbaijan. St. said need to safeguard Baku
oil – v. sabotage. V. thin. He has no intn of annexing
Azerb. – no need, if puppet Govt. There is Treaty of 1921:
limited by exchange of lrs. (wh. shd. be circulated): under wh.
R. can in certain circs. put troops into Persia. Persia
have never implemd own constitn – hence R. find fertile
soil in Ab.
Drafted Persian proposals (in telegrams) for appointmt of local
Councils. St. said = basis of settlement if Commn sent in.
Persian Govt. not consulted: therefore I inserted “with
approval of P. Govt.” U.S. didn’t like that: wanted
“concurrence”. I accepted that. But R. wdn’t then carry
the discns any further: saying Pers. P.M. had abused Sov.
Govt.
Final interview – as in telegram. Considered refusing to sign
anythg. if no Persian settlement. Decided world opinion
wd. be critical of thus losing agreements under a) – e).
Also U.S. attitude wasn’t clear, tho’ on brk. down U.S.
became alarmed. Byrnes then became more helpful &
aligned himself. Have sent proposals to Persia via
ttee
Bullard: if P. Govt. accepts. I will commte Mosc. &
Wash. & see if we can re-open on this basis.
Persian Amb. y’day suggd to me it shd. be put thro’ U.N.O.
Doubt if they’ll get much comfort there (veto etc.).
Inclined to advise them against this.
We want to avoid friction in areas where our interests meet
those of R.
427
g) General.
Talk with St. Said we didn’t trust them re Tripolitania. I said
not a ques. of trust, but competition. He then said he was
anxious we shdn’t quit Egypt. I asked for his symp. co-opn
in our dealing with Egypt - & he promised it.
He welcomed our moves in India – referred to dangers of a
separatist movement there – and he hoped India wd. remain
in B. Empire.
He is more concerned re India & Far East than Balkans.
h) Indonesia.
Talk with M. & St., both of whom thght we were seekg. to add it
to B. Empire.
I gave him assurance on this. Spoke, however, of Dutch
claims which I said we cdn’t ignore. We were seeking
Dutch/Indonesian settlement.
This has bn. clarified.
i)
Greece.
Long talk: asked us to w’draw our Forces. I said we were going
to see election through & re-establ. econom. posn. Want it
to find its political legs.
After that Greece was used only as pin-prick.
j)
Austria. We raised ques. of w’drawal of troops. They
countered with charges of supportg. White Guard. – to
avoid discn. There are 60.000 troops there. I offered to
reduce to 20.000 each. They evaded discn.
Same charges re B. Zone in Germany. Had to take stiff line,
insistg. on w’drawal of all imputns v. commrs.
General Ques. of W’drawal of Troops.
My concln: (i) R. is afraid of bringing any more of Red Army
back to R. The internal posn in R. is not good. 170.000
towns destroyed. No substantial amount of work going on.
Machine highly geared for war: doubt if reconversion can
get going as quickly as here. Doubt also wtr. they will be
able to enforce labour control so strictly.
Reasons: food & discipline: keep them out durg. winter.
(ii) They will try for repeat, move in May, for Peace
Confce. They will then propose simultan. w’drawal,
incldg. Greece & China.
k) Atomic Energy. U.S. tabled memo. omittg. substance of
para. 8 of W’ton Decln – i.e. the proposal to move by
stages. That I regard as vital para. Byrnes said omitted
because thght. R wdn’t like it. I prevailed on him to some
extent: & he submd addl. para. I refused to sign w’out it.
Discn adjourned. Next day R. accepted it. In later discn
(informal) I told St. we must be v. careful over this: & he
agreed.
R. wanted whole control in Sec. Council. I said only on security
side. Many other aspects. Not limited to atomic energy.
Also advantages as well as dangers. Agreed: & Rpts.
428
to be publd unless Sec. Council (i.e. unanimous agreemt)
decide not to publish for security reasons.
P.M.
Gratitude to For. Secy., who has done v. well.
A.B.
R. Rule of no flying over R. territory.
E.B.
Raised this with Stalin. He is adamant.
R. are averse to all internatl intercourse.
They are suffering gt. economic upheaval & diffy. Will refer to this
in H/C.
E.Sh.
Posn of France?
E.B.
I didn’t like 3. Power Mtgs. After next one in W’ton, hope no more.
But Fr. does open her mouth v. wide for present weakness.
R. has contempt for France. U.S. are not really acceptg. France as
1st cl. Power.
E.Sh.
But isn’t it to our ultimate advantage to draw more closely to France.
Can’t say how.
E.B.
History of prejudice betwn. W.S.C. and de G. Below him, there is as
good an understandg. with France as ever. But diff. to translate
it into action. Collapse of Fr. adminve machine.
H.D.
We set aside £1 m. for Fr. wines. But they are in such a mess we can’t
buy it. This = example of the diffies.
E.B.
And vice bldg. up on small things they will concentrate on e.g. Ruhr.
Thus, they now want to start a campaign to break relations with
Franco.
A.B.
This is diversionary – typical Comm. tactics.
T.W.
China. “Those on our side” – Edgar Snow. – said “Comm.” in
in North were not really Comm. but democr. elected structure.
Are they really democratic?
E.B.
Agreed all round tht. in these areas Govt. is better & less corrupt than
anywhere else.
P.M.
Visit of Dutch P.M. etc., Thursday. V. decent men. Van Mook seemed
broad minded. Their proposals seemed sound. Compld they
were being kept out of p. services etc., in N.E.I. Promised to
investigate. I was encouraged by this talk.
[Enter C.I.G.S and Creech-Jones.
429
2.
Palestine.
C.J.
Telegrams confirm earlier reports on disturbances.
10 k. 11 wounded in 3 major outrages.
Precautionary measures taken earlier now supplemented by searches
& arrests.
High Comm. feels recent Govt. ruling v. genl. search shd.
be maintained – for genl. measures wd. destroy chances of
Anglo-U.S. Commn.
He is also against genl. fines & levies.
Favours re-affirming. our deprecn of violence. But no more.
Raised ques. of Jewish Agency – as in telegrams. Police observn
etc., of leaders wd. discredit moderate opinion.
Immigrn. 75.000 under W. Paper are now nearly exhausted. F.O.
x/ seekg. acquiescence of Arab States in continuance of present
monthly rate, ad interim.
C.I.G.S.
Enough Force to deal with situation, if it becomes necessary.
Speeding up re-inforcemt. of 1st Divn. – replacemt. of personnel.
P.M.
Ben Gurion & a.n.other: attitude in not condemning outrages. –
v. bad.
Humanitarian consn Jews in Europe.
A.B.
What of the practical suggn of admittg. relatives.
C.J.
Diffy: we are now as at x/. This supplem. measure wd. complicate
those approaches.
J.
Wd. have liked to see this suggn explored.
E.B.
Am in touch with Arab States.
P.M.
Tr. is askg. about actual posn under Quota.
E.B.
Will consider with C.O. addg. to draft telegrams to Arab States the
relatives suggn.
If they refuse, we must take our own decision.
‘M’while, we mustn’t let the flow stop. C.O. must see to that. If
Arabs complain, their fault for not replying.
Attitude to J. Agency. Do nothing. Don’t send for them again. If they
ask to come, enquire wtr. they are going to help.
E.Sh.
Shd. be announced that flow hasn’t bn. stopped.
E.B.
But Jewish Agency decided to boycott the 1.500 a month. This isn’t
likely to be connected with attitude of J. Agency.
[Exit: C.I.G.S. & Creech-Jones
[Enter: Hynd: N. Baker: Barnes
430
3.
World Wheat Supplies.
P.M.
Avoid discussion of detailed allocns w’in Ldn. Cttee area.
Points for decision are in paras. 13-15.
T.W.
Summarised memo.
Suggested reductions. Big cut is in UNRRA. M/F. doubt Italian
claim.
Pre-war ½ m. tons cpd. with 3m. claim. China: cdn’t be
transported, even if available.
U.K. stocks worse than ever. Will go below the 700.000 figure appd
by Cab. before June – prob. to 550.000.
If C.F.B. appd these cuts then wd. be a contingency reserve, fr. which
G. & Austria cd. draw.
On para. 15 suggest defer until Austr. has replied to approach by
M/Food.
In para. 12. 600.000 is mis-print for 1.500.000. J.B.H. agreed.
Allocns can be considered in detail in light of M/F. report on his
W’ton talks.
P.M.
Work on Summary on p. 7.
Para. 14(ii). Recent telegram suggests Argentine O.K. for 3 months.
P.L.
Wd. accept if a) supplies made in first 3 months – to prevent hoarding.
b) substantial imports of rice from Siam etc.
E.B.
Siamese agreemt. now signed.
R.S.C.
Consumer goods – in hand.
P.M.
Telegram to present – Agreed.
J.
Are these facts known?
T.W.
C.F.B. calculations – 3 already. First, 10m. surplus. Second, July,
all square. Third, Sept., 2m. deficit w’out enemy countries or
6m. with them.
Latest Oct. figures = 7m. deficit for half year.
U.S. have no control over producer use of wheat.
France scrapped all controls before elections – now re-instated, too
late and push up their claims for import.
We mustn’t suffer on this a/c.
P.M. might impress on Fr. need for getting all wheat off their farms.
E.B.
On facts: I answered P.Q. & Salter asked for publn of supplies.
I said wd. consider – for all food supplies for world as a
whole, supply & demand.
x/ Think C.F.B. shd. consider publn. Ask M/F. to consider that.
Agreed.
431
R.S.C.
Can we suggest these drastic cuts – leavg. our own intact – with
2 exporting countries.
T.W.
We are cuttg. by 80.000 t. And we can’t drop our stocks any lower
than 550.000 in June.
R.S.C.
What of extraction rate?
We are only consumer country & we suggest heavy cuts on all others.
P.M.
But we have cut and we have supplied to others.
A.B.
My advisers are alarmed. Fr. have 90% & rationing. Europe is being
reduced to starvation level.
T.W.
France collects nothg. from farms.
A.B.
In March we may regret not being sensibly altruistic now.
J.B.H.
Para. 12. 600.000. Memo. is based on that. Their needs cdn’t be met
fr. contingency reserve.
Offl. Cttee shd. be allowed to complete their work on the German
supply posn.
Accept para. 14 on understandg. tht. figures in App. II shdn’t be used
until Offls. have examd.
P.M.
But para. 14(iii) leaves elbow room.
J.B.H.
But I don’t want G. & A. left to contingency reserve. Want them
included with other countries.
T.W.
Cd. be done on M/F. return.
P.M.
Agreed.
P.L.
Appeal for economy re bread.
N.B.
Yes – to world, not U.K. alone. E.B. might do it at U.N.O. Assembly.
Need for more food for Germ. to prevent epidemics.
Drastic cut on UNRRA. Poland: ration now said to be too small.
Greece: UNRRA adjusts her supply to local supply.
Italy: prodn cdn’t be normal because of war: also catastrophic
crop failure.
P.M.
We are facing World deficit. Must be some scaling down. We can’t
consider here what the cuts shd. be.
N.B.
Content with memo. provided these cuts are not considered a proper
aim.
Better line is to go for more food fr. producg. countries. Appeals.
U.S. proposing Joint Mission to Argentine.
432
P.M.
Can we not accept para. 14 and 16.
Barnes.
But see para 11. We must get agreemt. on minimum.
This memo. is based on minimum distribn figures. W’out that
I can’t arrange shipping.
433
3rd January, 1946.
C.M. 2(46).
1.
Mr Peter Fraser.
P.M.
Welcome to Fraser.
P.F.
Thanked.
2.
Congrats. to C.O.S. & welcome to Tedder.
Situation in Germany.
Welcome to M.
M.
Last summer Control Commn establd – going v. well now, thanks to
Control Office wh. was necessary.
Situation a) material. Starvation & disease. 1500 cal. over-all: bare
minimum.
Can honour ration provided we get wheat asked for. W’out
that wd. go down to 900 = 1/3rd of U.K. This wd. mean not only
starvation but disease. We can now handle disease – main fear
wd. be outbrk. of virulent ‘flu. And risk not of handling there
but comg. over here. Traffic 10.000 p. wk.
Now considerg. how we cd. insulate it.
We shall win battle of winter if we get the wheat.
b) human. 23m. G. in B. Zone. Our troubles with them will
come: for (i) next yr. signs of recovery & they’ll see won’t
benefit them. Machinery removed. (ii) w’spread unemplt.
because of our econ. policy. (iii) demobd 3 m. G. fightg. men in
our Zone (iv) removed Nazis fr. office, who are good
organisers – idle with field for work.
Trouble already in U.S. Zone.
Need therefore a) not to run down overmuch B. strength in Germany.
Recommns made to W.O. b) care in increasg. tempo of T.U.’s
& pol. parties. Seeds sown: let them grow naturally. Need
for right sort of leaders
First phase of our work over. Re-groupg. for next – forms (i) In C.C.
we have 14 subordinates: lack therefore of co-ordinn: no-one
has time for constve thinkg. Therefore re-groupg. into SubCommns. e.g. Transport, Econom., & Repns under single man
with time to travel & think. (ii) Mil. Govt. to give way to civil.
I now govern thro’ Corps Comms. Must prepare for Govt. by
G. supervised by us. First stage was fusion of C.C. & Mil Govt.
Next = replace Genls. with Reg.Commns.:target date ¼. (iii) Need
for change of heart in G. people. Must get down to youth – 7 – 9’s.
Once thght. of Boy Scouts etc. Now believe tht. wd. raise suspicion
in Allied Council in Berlin. Going now for
Boys Clubs instead, with help of Fedn we are going for big
drive to get at the youth.
(iv) Need for agreed level of G. industry. Can’t get that now –
everyone is so keen on Repns. Want broad outline of target
434
5 years hence. Work that out: & then everything else is available for
repns. That is now biggest problem of all. Shan’t,
w’out it, get repns fixed by Feb. date.
P.M.
Girls as well as boys?
M.
Yes. Later on may need specialise on girls.
P.M.
Views of U.S. – are they workg. in line with us?
M.
Yes, in the main – not on finance. Went v. us unexpectedly on
G. Forces in B. Zone – now in line again. Fr. also generally
in accord save for “single unit”.
H.D.
Food: rpts. of plenty in country areas. Is enough done a) to collect
or b) to shift the young to rural plenty.
M.
In country areas people live 100%. Preventg. outrush into country
because no-one shd. live 100% in G.
Forbidden B. from buying any food.
Transport is diffy. Cd. move more.
E.Sh.
a) On econ. plan – w’out agreemt. with R. cd. you have plan for
B. Zone.
b) Idle Nazi’s – wd. it be wiser to get them to work?
M.
On b) policy = not to be employers of labour or in Govt. work.
believe they wd. be safer at work.
On a) we shd. brk. up quadripartite Govt. & go into Zones. Cd.
be done.
A.
Youth – can we get right teachers?
M.
Yes, got them. Books were a delay. Most dangerous in edn =
Universities. 4.000 in each of 6 Univs. – ex-soldiers: risk
of plots being hatched there. I’m plantg. students & also
arranging snap raids.
Teachg. staff screened. But little influence over students.
A.
D.p.’s
M.
Polish – reluctance to go in winter. D.p. camps v. comfortable & the
men refuse to work. Not good. Believe we shd. adopt policy
that by ¼ every d.p. must declare wtr. he will return & if not
he must go elsewhere to named countries. And after ¼ “no
work, no food”.
E.B.
For Poles I want to write off those unwillg. to return – vice persuadg.
them to go. i.e. contractg. out vice in.
Those going back are being treated fairly.
435
M.
We have had some who’ve gone & retd. That makes others reluctant
to go.
J.
Attitude to atrocities.
M.
No shame – done by Nazi’s - & you can’t find any to-day. That =
why we must tackle the children.
R.S.C.
x/ G. leaders. Have we combed out people here?
M.
Up to date I’ve bn. reluctant to import fr. outside – esp. puttg. them on
top. Need for gt. care.
Our popn is increasing – fr. east. We have receptn arrangemts., but
we can’t prevent return to own homes to live in cellars.
P.F.
Our impn = B Zone is being admind with greater understandg. than
other 3.
Coal – need for miners to have enough.
A.B.
What is real objn to x/.
M.
None, if we cd. be sure they are right types for present problem.
J.B.H.
Regular machinery for screening thro’ M. & Control Office.
G.A.I.
Was the visit of B. T.U. Delegn useful.
M.
Yes, to us: & prob. to Germans.
J.B.H.
They were pleased with what they saw.
G.A.I.
Cd. the rept be publsd?
J.B.H.
Will circulate to Cab.
R.S.C.
Publ. also as W. Paper.
E.B.
Cd. M. have off - record talk with Press – Editors as well as
Dipl. Corresp. _ & explain our problems.
F.O. & Control Office to arrange.
M. shd. see rpts. of allegns made by R. at Moscow re B. mil authies
in G. & A.
A.B.
Health Mission deprecated absence of central Health Dpt. Can
anythg. be done?
M.
I agree – but can’t get over Fr. objns.
436
N.B.
Transport. How far = coal: lorries: petrol.
Wd. more coal for G. use improve it?
M.
Due mainly to a) lack and bad repair of rollg. stock on rlways.
b) lack of petrol. Much G. transport off the roads
because I can’t supply B. petrol or to open synthetic
plants in G. Wd. take 3 months. R. have opened
up one. x/
J.B.H.
Potsdam incl. this as war potential. R. excuse = temporary. Ours
wd. be too.
Agreed: Cab. to reconsider x/ and y/.
P.M.
Repair of war damage?
M.
Doing it well: concentratg. on housing.
P.M.
Employ Nazis on this?
M.
Are doing, to some extent.
T.W.
G. agriculture?
M.
Harvest 70% overall – heavy rain, & battle interf. with spring sowg.
Next year cause will be shortage of fertiliser due to closing of
ammonia plant.
E.B.
Shd. we also re-consider re-opening ammonia plant? y/
J.B.H.
Plan incldg. x/ and y/ recently tabled at Allied Council in Berlin.
[Exit Montgomery & Fraser.
3.
Entrances to Baltic.
E.B.
As in memo. Attentn drawn to F.D.R. statemt. at Tehran on
Kiel Canal – refused to discuss because undertaken not to
consider G. problems at Moscow mtg.
Thght S. was seekg. base in Skagerak. Assured me he wasn’t.
Re-considered: advantage in gettg. it clear this = free waterway.
For useful in later discns re Straits.
C.N.S.
No obstacles to free passage of any type of ship.
Riparian states weakness shd. ensure tht. this state continues.
Agree therefore with E.B.’s paper.
R.S.C.
Risk of greater Power gettg. control.
C.A.S.
Any Power wh. conquered Denmark cd. control.
E.B.
Firm decln wd. be best guarantee.
437
A.V.A.
No real threat save fr. resurgent Germany or us. We have no designs
& we are going to control G.
But R. wd. prs. like to get in themselves.
E.B.
Wd. like to discuss with B. & V. when they are here for U.N.O.
Such a statement wd. help fr. angle of future discns re other
waterways.
[Enter Barnes.
4.
Disposal of German Merchant Fleet.
Barnes.
Congrats. to B. members of Commn.
We got most of G. ships and have bn. usg. them. Condns therefore
are v. import. to us.
Stress para. 6 – terms of commn to be agreed with F.O. & Admy.
Annex I. para 6. Sov. Govt. wd. like these referred back to Commn.
I recommend settlement thro’ dipl. channel.
Annex II. B. Paras. ticked can be accepted w’out reservations. Urge
tht. Rpt. be accepted with these reservns – quickly, for Sov.
Govt. have already accepted.
C.A.S.
We agree with memo. – incldg. reservations.
T.W.
On fishing fleet – can we be kept in touch.
E.Sh.
What was basis of allocation? Equity or need? U.S. has too much.
E.B.
At Potsdam we agreed to division by 2/3rds – R. lookg. after Poland,
and B. and U.S. to look after other small Powers. B. & U.S.
have now to discuss disposal of those to smaller Powers.
Sov. Govt. have accepted, save for para. 14. At Moscow they
pressed me for statement, which I gave (after consultn with
Dpts.)
H.D.
Finance. Govt, wh. has spent money on repairs is to be re-couped
by countries receivg.
Barnes.
Not if we’ve bn. usg. ship for own purposes.
H.D.
Country B. can counter-claim for A.’s use of ship before transfer.
Barnes.
Covered by terms of our reservation.
H.D.
Ask for closer contact with Ty. in workg. this out.
J.B.H.
P.6., para. 7: no repns a/c betwn. us & Russia. Our repair bill will
exceed compensn for use bill - & no way of recovering from R.
Suggest further discn betwn. Dpts.
438
B.
Para. 7: para. to wh. we attach reservation.
H.D.
Is it clear we don’t pay for use until settlement for repairs?
B.
Yes.
J.B.H.
Para. 14. Wd. like Control Office added.
B.
Will consider –
J.B.H.
Para. 6 of covering memo.
B.
Agree to add to para. 6. i.e. consultn - Agreed.
A.B.
Cl. 7 of Agreement – last para. but one.
When this has bn. done repair facilities are to be radically reduced.
P.M.
Raise this later – on G. war potential.
Agreed.
[Exit Barnes: C.O.S.:
N.B.: Hynd.
5.
Elections in Greece.
E.B.
As in memo.
R.S.C.
Registers – will there be supervision on re-opening of registers.
Believe any amount of corruption – plural voting.
E.B.
Never heard of this. Windle expects to be able to check & have
corrected.
A.
V. comprehensive & costly machinery. N.Z. & S.Af have agreed:
Austr. will: Canada won’t: send observers. Smuts threateng.
to back out – but expect to keep him in.
Agreed.
6.
Migration.
A.
As in memo. C.O.S. say tht. if forced to give a figure they wd. give
too high a one. C/E. has therefore agreed.
H.D.
Have agreed: but v. dissatisfied with C.O.S. attitude.
Want to keep up pressure on the C.O.S., as & when possible.
Agreed – as in memo.
439
7.
Gas shortage in London.
A.B.
Disturbed re gas in Ldn. w. ref. to outbrk. of mild ‘flu.
E.Sh.
Labour shortage is the cause. Unskilled workers – wages
unattractive – T.U.’s don’t like extended use of troops.
A.B.
Public say – enough labour all thro’ war.
E.Sh.
There was redn in pressure durg. war.
Labour was directed durg. war.
G.A.I.
Review completed this wk. – will use Labour Supply Offrs. &
Factory Dpt. to seek improved condns. It’s not wages.
A.B.
Emergency action?
E.B.
Dockers?
8.
G.A.I.
Demobilisation.
Reptd posn.
Thanks to Services.
9.
Agricultural Wages.
Appln for increase to £4.10.0 (from £3.10.0).
Ask for caution in any statements re agric. wages.
10.
Death of Will Thorne.
Record sense of contribn to our movement - & sympathy with relicts.
440
8th January, 1946.
C.M. 3(46).
1.
National Health Service.
A.B.
In negotns don’t intend to make any concessions on principle.
E.g. if I conceded the takg. over of hosp. services the whole
scheme wd. have to be re-cast. I wd. however make it clear
tht. once princ. is establd there is ample room for modificn
e.g. on compn of Reg. Bds. & governing bodies of teachg.
hospitals. Similarly, private practice for g.p.’s needn’t be
prohibited so long as patients wishes to buy service in addn
to the service publicly provided.
Concerned re risk of re-emergence of panel system. Insist therefore
on basic salary wh. will be as high a propn of total
remuneration as possible. Encourage groups of drs. workg.
in H. Centre to work on same salaries. Vol. salaried service:
my aim.
Anxious to go ahead now.
Mtg. T.U.C. to-day. Then B.M.A. 15 discns in January arranged.
Up to my time-table. Can be ready for Legn Cttee by Feb. if I can
draft now, with knowledge of my Colleagues’ support.
P.M.
Treasury?
H.D.
Little progress made with decn of 20/12. In A.B.’s earlier memo.
admd only v. approx. estimates possible.
I am in general support. Have urged Ty. to get some figures from
Health Dpts.
Repeat caveat included in Concln (3) of 20/12.
Para. 20. of C.P.(45)3. Must be made x clear tht. no undertakg. is
given tht. any l.a. will benefit financially as result of this change.
Use formula of Cab. Concln of 20/12 or equivalent words. x in the
negotiations.
Reg. Bds. will work with allocn of money fr. centre. Offl. [of M/H]
will have to be a/c offr. to H.Q. of M/H: not merely the Bd. as a
whole. Is that so?
A.B.
That offr. must have reasonable powers of virement within the global
total.
And we shall also need comparative costing – to match efficiency of
one Bd. or hospital against another.
E.B.
Central purchasing?
A.B.
Yes. And it shd. substantially reduce the cost.
R.S.C.
M/S. can buy much more cheaply. As Aid for China Fund has found.
P.M.
Criticism of bureaucratic structure. Much “by the Minister.”
441
A.
Para. 10. As it develops, all will be “insured.” Wd. say “all insured
persons” vice [wishing to take advantage.”] For if drs. in publ.
service can induce people to pay extra, you may get worst
features of Panel system (concentn on paying patients)
intensified. Want emphasis on public service – v. little
opportunity to cultivate private practice. I would begin discns by
omitting the words [ ]. Make it clear you won’t have drs. developg.
priv.-practice out of same people. Want to see dr. in
publ. service so remunerated that he can look to prosperous
practice within that service.
Conditions: e.g. a) require him to take refresher course every 5 years.
(c.f. para. 15) as a condn of emplt.
Para. 3. second para. Why “senior”?
A.B.
To exclude house surgeons – not restrictive.
A.
Want it to cover as many as possible.
Finance. We cd. expect l.a.’s to pay substantially more than in last
memo.
E.B.
A.B.
E.B.
a. Any provn for “sessional” fees for consultants? So as to ensure that
good men can be got to go to distant patients.
Yes: for certain hospitals.
b. Private practice we shall never abolish, certainly not for 10 years.
c. Allocn of those who don’t select a dr. Want all these to be allocated
to H. Centre.
This was in the end mentioned in W. Paper. If you concede
right to select doctor, doctors have no claim to those who select
none. Wd. help to develop health centre.
A.B.
Favoured in principle.
J.J.L.
Private practice by panel doctors. Real evil has bn. failure to restrict
size of panel practice. Cttee didn’t control the dr. Welcome
proposal in para. 13. which shd. have effect of limiting size of
panel practices.
Agree you have private practice for many years. Need: see tht. panel
patients get fair deal.
T.W.
Para. 3. Hosp. Managemt. Cttees. Large prov. areas where l.a.’s have
no hospitals. In my area of Yorks. there is scarcely one
municipal hosp. Does this formula mean tht. l.a. will be brght. in
where they have no hospital experience to the exclusion of those
who have. Do we not intend to include the best of those
experienced in managemt. of vol. hospitals.
Not proposed to give every health authy. a right to nominate. Shall
certainly include the people who in any area have the best
practical experience. Each Bd. will be considered on merits in
A.B.
442
light of circumstances of each area. This is an example of point
on wh. there is plenty of room for concession.
E.B.
Repve of T.U.?
A.B.
At Reg. level – not on managemt. cttees.
E.Sh.
Industr. Med. Services (ref. para.7)
We are developg. such a service in mines. Does this plan conflict with
developmt. of that? Also M/F & P. med. service: & research.
Also the rehabitn & convalescent homes for minters & miners’
hospitals – provided largely by funds subscribed by miners. Are
these threatened?
Afraid of bureaucratic centralisation.
E.B.
Thrashed out on W. Paper. Leave the industry. med. services out – then
consultn between Dpts. to dovetail them in.
A.B.
I agree with view as expressed by E.B.
Wait until we see how this plan shakes down.
But institutional services must come in. Hospitals must be taken over,
for they serve the general public as well.
E.Sh.
Re-habiln centres.
A.B.
We will see: we may often be able to provide better facilities.
G.H.
a)
A.B.
No longer. For this cost is now carried by Ty.
H.D.
Not quite. Substantial contn from N.H.I. – not the whole cost.
C.E.
How many drs. will remain outside?
A.B.
Can’t say.
J.
What of Dives/Lazarus surgeons?
A.B.
We shall have to pay them fees.
C.E.
But will there be private drs. e.g. in Guildford?
A.B.
No prohibition.
Issue = shd. a dr. in publ. service treat patient for fee? V. diff. But
you can’t prevent a patient fr. seeing Dr. B. who is good at his
ailment but isn’t his doctor – and you must then let him have
his fee.
[Exit Addison.
Method of paymt. for med. services in mining areas.
“Free of charge”. We shdn’t give that impression – it’s in return
for insurance. And miners too.
443
E.Sh.
Won’t this lead to diffy. referred to by A. earlier?
E.B.
H. Centre is long-term answer.
In Russia they concentrate on Clinic. But even there, there is private
practice.
E.Sh.
I wd. still like to prohibit dr. in public service fr. takg. private practice.
And segregate the two.
A.B.
Then you wd. stimulate a black market.
P.M.
Method is to make the State service v. much better. Let it attract
business.
A.V.A.
Will you take power to charge fees to persons not w’in insurance
e.g. foreigners.
A.B.
Concluded there wd. have to be provn for paying patients in hospitals –
in order to avoid encouraging nursing homes.
J.
Two dangers –
a) If drs. out likely to do better, risk that publ. service reputn
will suffer. Nec. therefore to pay good salaries.
b) Tendency to slack on a fixed salary. Must have proper
inducements.
A.B.
a) is no real danger for g.p. service. It is v. real for specialists.
b) salary won’t be the whole remuneration. Restraint of publ. opinion
w’in the service – not previously available. And wider adminve
charge of local Cttee.
Memo. Approved.
2.
E.B.
We promised to build road - & didn’t. Guatemala want territory back.
I regard this as legal dispute - & propose to refer it to Internat. Ct.
Agreed.
3.
E.B.
E.Sh.
E.B.
British Honduras.
U.N.R.R.A. General Morgan.
Storm over this in W’ton before they know the facts. M. now says he
won’t resign: they can sack him if they like. Generals’ Union
has now weighed in. at W’ton: & they are makg. diffies for
U.N.R.R.A.
What are the facts re anti-Semitism in Poland?
Posn in Poland has deteriorated. They have denounced our trade etc.,
agreement. They must stew in their own juice.
444
10th January, 1946.
C.M. 4(46).
1.
London Airport.
A.
Summd main points in memo.
Three stages: first will be substantially completed this year.
Need for takg. plenty of land at outset, to avoid limitg. future
development. Thus, propose acquisition of Cranford Park.
Might be awkward because of height of bldgs if this area isn’t
under our control.
Difficulties a) Transport. Interruptn with Bath Rd. New road to the
north wd. be requd. Other access: Extension of
Underground fr. Hounslow West. This is only
proposal for near future: later, other facilities will be
needed.
b) Cost. Land 7.M. Main cost = that of runways.
Officials estimates are based on existg. costs. With
addl. items of rlway. extension etc., cost is likely to
be about £30 m.
c) Demolitions etc., Southall Gas Holder.
S.W. corner – runway 7 goes
beyond boundary into Sludgeworks, part of wh. wd. have to be
acquired.
M/C.A. and Ty. must vet costs in greater detail.
Hybrid Bill will be needed.
H.D.
V. expensive. Beginning to feel that Cab. shd. put a brake on
expenditure. Hope therefore that details will be examd with
critical eye.
Agree we must have 1st rate airport: that this is the place: that we
must go fwd. Need however to be sure we are using best.
Para. 19. £221/2 m. + ½ m. for b-flying system. Over 7 years.
£31/2 m. for Bath Road.
£1-2 m. .. rl. access for employees.
£10-15 m. .. passenger rlway line improvemt.
Not satisfied we need at this stage acquire anythg. n. of Bath Rd.
Certainly no need to acquire Cranford Park – sterilisation at most.
N. of Bath Rd. – no need for it yet, & no need to assume cost will rise.
Recommend therefore go ahead s. of Bath Rd.
P.M.
Don’t like figures. Up-to-date methods shd. make for lower constn
costs.
R.A.F. reluctance to use rapid methods of laying runways.
No estimate of revenue.
A.
No basis for that. Unwise to count on it.
A.B.
No diffy. in sterilising adjacent land.
Don’t need Cranford Park for housing.
445
Need for closer supervision of costs because of repercussions on
housing in same area.
P.M.
Estimate of labour requirements?
A.
No. Evidence is sketchy.
Barnes.
N. of Bath Road. If we are going to spend these large sums – no
economy if we don’t look ahead to road facilities. Essential we
shd. know when the Bath Rd. is ultimately to run. Otherwise our
roads to airport will be cut in wrong place. Quick access to
Ldn. = only point in having Airport here.
Wdn’t meet me to have Bath Rd. in existing site but larger.
I’m concerned also with ques. of by-passing Slough & Maidenhead.
That’s why I must know where this airport is going to be.
E.B.
Supported Barnes on this point. Need to see road as a whole.
A.
H.D.’s suggn also knocks out proved case for 9 runways vice 6.
C.E.
If we leave land n. of road, we shall pay a lot in compensation.
P.M.
Why not go further out?
W.
Inconvenience to passengers - & need for feeder services.
E.B.
Thrashed out under Coalition. Never liked it. But settled now &
already spent £5 m. And surely unwise to swop horses now.
Don’t like leavg. land n. of Bath Rd. Surely we shd. earn interest on
the cost of it. Surely you will get some industrial development
along the new line of Bath Rd.
R.S.C.
Need for 9 runways – because congestion at peak hours.
H.D.
Need all the traffic come to London?
P.M.
Do you assume large propn of trans-Atlantic traffic will come here?
What is to prevent them from coming via Eire or France vice Ldn.
E.B.
Everyone who built rlway terminal failed to buy enough land.
Marshall.
Purchase wd. be better & cheaper than T.C.P. control. Latter will
involve continual but separate applns for compn. Cheaper to buy
& re-let for appd purposes.
No objn to this scheme as a whole on planning grounds. Need to give
notice of our intentions soon.
A.B.
a)
b)
Under what authy. has expendre already bn. incurred.
Any real-estate gambling in this land.
446
c)
On what are estimates based of cost of land. Drop or rise
in cost.
W.
On c) 1939 values + 40%.
On a) requisitioning or Defence acquisition.
Barnes.
Are we going to make the same mistake here as we’ve always made
in past re transport.
Land is not main cost. Don’t limit amount of land.
T.W.
Agreed.
There is an airport here: if you scrap this you’ll want as much
elsewhere.
W.
This is best of 50 sites surveyed in belt round London.
R.S.C.
Every earlier airport has become out of date because insufficient
land taken at outset.
Cranford Park – stupid for any kind of development not to acquire
this intervening tongue of land.
H.D.
What is to be done with Heston?
T.W.
Housing & other development.
A.G.
Hybrid Bill affectg. many land-owners will run into diffies in Parlt.
Unless you get in quickly, it won’t get through Joint Sel. Cttee. in
time to pass this Session.
P.M.
Agreed: proceed with hybrid Bill. But you must be much clearer about
costs before you get into Select Cttee. Study must continue.
See no harm in acquiring whole area, incldg. Cranford Park.
C.E.
Why out of revenue? Why not special loan?
P.M.
Consider that.
2.
[Enter N.B.
Exeunt. W., Barnes,
Marshall.
International Trusteeship.
A.
As in covering memo.
Form of announcement. Want authy. to communicate draft to Dom.
Govts.
Order of commn. a) To Doms. Get their comments before we send to
other interested Powers.
E.B.
Some diffy. with French. Hoped they wd. say the same re their
447
mandates in Africa. Seen Bidault: but he can’t go ahead w’out
de G. Told him I cdn’t avoid mentiong. this in my speech on
Monday. Halifax confirms we must retain initiative.
Stanley asked P.Q. – I gave vague answer, not changing policy of
Coaln Govt. We shall have Parly. difficulty.
G.H.
In spite of risk we must take it.
Para. (i)(a) agreed.
H.D.
Para. (i)(b) – What of effects on Pal. enquiry?
E.B.
Can’t help that. On other hand, cdn’t negotiate Treaty I want
vis-à-vis Egypt.
G.H.
No promise ever made of J. immigration in Trans-Jordan.
Para (i)(b) and (c) agreed.
E.B.
Para (ii). Cab. shd. be clear Smuts wanted the other. We shall
explain to Smuts.
A.
Para. (iv). No ref. to negotns with other Powers shd. be included
in announcement.
E.B. Agreed.
Para. (v) Agreed.
Agreed.
3.
Malayan Constitution.
P.M.
Para. 13. Amplify? Will look odd.
G.H.
Will agree a simultaneous statemt.
Won’t include Appendix.
Agreed.
4.
J.J.L.
Gas Supplies.
Agreed. Tho’ a) can’t guarantee continuity of personnel.
b) don’t like night-shifts – don’t put them on too many.
448
15th January 1946
C.M.5 (46)
1.
Man Power.
P.M.
1.510.080. released from Services by 31/12. Congratulations.
E.B.
Unfortunately short-fall of 500.000 on munitions. Cd. P.M. see Supply
Ministers before Def. Cttee meets on Friday.
A.V.A.
Admr. reached its target. Figures for division betw. naval and merchant
bldg. are v. misleading.
E.B.
There will be heavy criticism. If figures inaccurate, officials shd. consider.
G.A.I.
Publicity – I will make statement in H/C in first week.
2.
E.B.
Greece.
Proposals ready to put to Gk. Govt. in agreemt. with Ty. etc.
If we cd. get economic posn. straight, we cd. afford to w’draw Forces after
elections – long term economy.
If Gks. refuse, we can publish – and show what we were ready to do.
3.
E.B.
Poland.
Discussed plan for liquidated debts etc. Pol. Govt. have declined the offer.
We must leave it as it now stands.
2.
Greece (cont’d)
H.O.
Sceptical. May have thrown away £10 m credit. Hope not.
E.B.
Gives them £25 m. behind their currency. Shd. give them a fair chance.
4.
Turkey.
Germs of another war. V. disturbing situation. Not yet ready for Cabinet.
5.
Indonesia.
E.B.
V. Mook not going back as quickly as cd. have wished.
Drain on our resources – and diffies. with India.
Decided to send Clark Kerr out there.
P.L.
Supported every effort to expedite clean up in Indonesia.
6.
E.B.
U.N. Organisation : First Assembly.
Beginning to settle down.
449
a) President. I agreed to speak. Byrnes then said promise made to Lye. I
decided better to stand to my first choice. Speak was elected. Failure of R.
attempt to stop it may show no value in prior private agreement – in this
case with U.S.
b) Security Council. R. asked for delay, so tht. more time for lobbying. I
opposed this for similar reasons.
c) Secretary Genl. More lobbying. Decided with P.M. we wdn’t run any
candidate – and finally agreed to support Pearson (Canada). I will vote for
him, in spite of subsequent pressures.
No gt. wave of enthusiasm. Doubts as effectiveness. Not bad thing – of
excessive enthusiasm for L/N. Obsession with future danger – lack of
confidence in results of war – sobriety – scare of responsibility – feeling
tht. few resolns. don’t guarantee peace. All this is reassuring.
P.L.
d) Govt. Hospitality. Not good : and means of introducing people.
E.B.
x/. Whole organn. of G. hosp. is ineffective. Needs thoro’ overhaul.
Own staff who know these people all too busy.
Wd. have paid us to get some of our diplomats or consuls home for these
occasions.
Most of staffs or Delegns,. are new since war – unknown in Ldn.
This is lesson for future – can’t now be remedied this time.
T.W.
Cd. we not have had “personality” notes.
S.
Workg. Cttee of juniors who cd. act as cicerones eg use of Air Attachés for
(?) Aviation Confce.
A.B.
Smaller gatherings – each Minister to look after no. of delegates.
A.V.A.
D.O. did it well last night via Bromby.
P.M.
Supported idea of smaller parties. E.g. I cd. look after lawyers.
E.B.
Endorsed x/. Lack of staff.
N.B.
F.O. Confce. Dpt. with G. Hosp. cd. manage a) small parties. b) introdn. to
larger gatherings.
P.M.
V. well. Go on with that. Dissect the visitors into groups.
N.B.
E.B. has earned dividend by standing firm on Spaak. Good Chairman.
450
Also good precedent tht. E.B. and Bryne stood firm on (b) above.
Presitge of B. Comm. high. W’drawal of Canada : and of N.Z. y’day :
have produced v. good effect.
e) World Trade Union Congress.
E.B.
I have advised U.N.O. = governmental organn. Govt. repns. can’t therefore
delegate their response to others. No objn. to their being there in advisory
capacity. Can’t agree to their being put on footing of Govt. delegn.
Hope this line will be supported – Parlt. wdn’t tolerate alternative.
Agreed.
7.
P.M.
Wheat : World Supply.
Heavy cuts. In our case will mean raising extraction rate. May involve
ques. of beer.
Specially heavy cuts on Germany. Impossible position – starvation.
Have telegraphed to P.M. Australia.
T.W.
M/F has gone as far with Truman as he can. If we can’t authorise him to
accept. T. may cut up rough : end result may be worse.
All we are asked to do is to accept allocns. agreed by Truman.
Allocns. for Ceylon : S.E.A.C. will have to be increased – out of our allocns.
30.000 (? 20.000) more essential for Ceylon : and 73.000 for S.E.A.C
Can’t go into details now. Propose accept allocns. and ask L.F.C. to work
out best means of utilising.
85% extraction from ½ wd. save 140.000 t. to end/June – at cost of
equivalent loss of feed.
G.H.
Endorse remarks re. Ceylon : Malaya. Position there serious. Rations of
rice in Ceylon = ¼ of India. And even worse in Malaya.
On these allocns. there wd. be serious starvation.
A.
Raised ques. of Siamese rice.
R.S.C.
Explained current position.
E.B.
Gifts argument postponed. Improvement expected now Treaty signed.
451
Consumer goods will help.
P.L.
a)
Have pressed G/India to give more consumer goods to Siam.
They’ve agreed to supply more cloth.
Hope we won’t be sticky about finance.
India has bn. cut off fr. rice imports Jan/March. Hope will be renewed in
2nd quarter as now agreed.
b)
Was ready to accept this allocation of wheat if most of it can be
supplied early in period.
Read telegram from Viceroy – raising addl. 150.000 tons. wh. he considers
essential minimum. Because of loss of crops in Madras and Bombay. Must
now ask for another 150.000 t.
J.J.L.
Awaiting firm demands from S.E.A.C.
J.B.A.
Assumg. 250.9000 to. of coarse grain fr. Argentine and reduce pipeline
and supply of back-log 660.000 procured this means 1200 calories. Must
face it.
Want however assumptions verified.
Austria. R. Zone is disastrous. If this allocn. went to Austria and we got
our share we cd. maintain 1500 calories. But if UNRRA enters Austria, the
zonal barriers will be broken and R. Zones need will be so great tht. B.
Zone will suffer. Thus, ques. of policy : shd. entry of UNRRA be p’poned.
Wd. mean 800 calories all round.
Want Cab to consider a) raising our extraction rate and b) eat less x/.
bread campaign – to raise some supplies wh. we cd. send to Germany.
P.M.
Must defer x/. until M/Food returns.
N.B.
Concern of UNRRA. Greece : 1700 calories : and heavy cut threatened.
Accept U.K. cut.
Press hard for para.18. Believe this cd,. be raised – to high level.
T.W.
Caution re. coarse grains. Effect on animal feed and eventual loss of food.
A.
Bottleneck of internal transport.
What of internal transport in Germany?
J.B.H.
Re-startg. synthetic petrol plan wd. not yield immed. results.
452
Barnes.
Lift from Canada. No diffy. in Jan. Feb/Mar. more diff. but no gt. danger
of b’down.
Increasg. lift fr. Pacific. Must remind Cab. tht. if we have scarce tonnage
in uneconomic way we shan’t get thro’ total p’mmes. No gt. diffy. in
shipping fr. Canada. But addl. cargoes fr. S. America only on balanced
cargoes.
A.B.
Cd. we not focus public opinion on these figures.
U.S. prposg. to hand back 40 m. tons/shipping to private enterprise.
Shameful in present circs.
We shd. mobilise world opinion – play on U.S. sentiment if we need to.
H.D.
U.S. extraction rate only 70%. Raising to 75% wd. involve 250.000 t, to
June.
R.S.C.
We must do somethg. ourselves. Raise own extractn. rate to 85% on that
peg hand an appeal to U.S.
T.W.
Don’t do that in absence of M/Food.
A.B.
Work up feeling in U.S. for “Merchant Fleet”.
N.B.
Passage in E.B.’s speech at Assembly – followed up by radio publicity –
may be there cd. then be a resolution at First Assembly.
P.M.
Not easy for us to make the running – attack on U.S. Better that one of
sufferers shd. take initiative.
E.B.
We were bitter over UNRRA – U.S. refusing to play Santa Clause any
more.
Have talked to Byrnes re. serious posn. in France. That is better line.
Will talk to Dulles also. Not qua charity but self-interest.
The charity line won’t work.
P.M.
(Approve proposals.
Agree (U.K. economies to be considered on return of M/Food.
(Approach to U.S. to be considered by E.B. in first instance.
UNRRA and Austria : can’t postpone because increased mil cost to
us (J.B.H. agreed : thought Cab. shd. know result nd. be to spread
what we have into R. Zone).
J.B.H.
Maximum quantities for G. in Jan/March. Need ½ m. : must have 50% of
it.
453
N.B.
Cd. I lobby importg. countries re. resolution.
E.B.
Don’t spring this in U.N.O. Not right way of handling U.S. and wd
provoke Russia.
Accept this – with mental reservation tht. we can go on pressing them for
more when our troubles become more acute.
R.S.C.
We must lay the foundns. even for that approach by initial publicity for the
facts.
P.M.
Why shd. U.S. take this initiative? Effect on U.S. might be v. bad.
T.W.
Let C.F.B. start it off, when world allocations agreed.
E.B.
Wait – French situation v. serious : might brk. in 48 hours.
P.M.
Hold it over then untl M/F returns.
E.B.
Give me an opportunity to study means of publicity.
[ Exit N.B. J.B.H. Barnes
[Enter Williams]
8.
Publicity Services in South East Europe.
E.B.
As in memo.
P.M.
Will this fit in with projected organn. for takg. over M/I. overseas services?
E.B.
Yes.
H.D.
Lookg. for economies here – cop. in B. Council.
S.
Air Miny. Publ. Relns. Branch cd. throw up some personnel in Class B.
E.J.W.
Need for air transport help. E.B. I’ve fixed that with M/CA.
E.B.
I will see tht. mil Vote goes down pro. tauto.
x//. Undertook to answer on Thursday P.M. query re. time at which M/Inf,.
overseas services will be taken over by F.O.
Memo approved.
[Exit Williams : Sargent]
9.
A.
Creation of Life Peers.
Shall soon be asked for our views.
454
Wd. be of gt. advantage to us to have some Life Peers – many of our
people unwilling to take titles.
Women – only 3 wd. be affected at present. But legn. wd. be necessary.
Third proposal I’ve already told Cecil is impracticable.
Wd. welcome views of colleagues.
P.M.
First ques. links up with H/Lords. as a whole. I’m against anything wh.
strengthens H/Lords.
J.
I favour first 2 : and am against 3rd.
I wd. say in H/Lds. this is inappropriate moment to raise these issues.
because of all manifold ques. before us.
H.D.
H/Lds. = our potential enemy. When we fight them, we must beat them.
x/. We must therefore keep H/Lords as irrational as possible, so as to make
it easier to get rid of them.
E.W.
This Govt. shd. accept 2nd of these points – remove an insult to the sex.
Recommend legislation. Genl. feeling among women.
T.W.
Where is the feeling about this? What class of women?
A.
Supported E.W. Let Cecil do it. Say if H/L. agree to his Motion on a free
vote we wd. introduce short Bill to give effect to it.
P.L.
Labour Peers are also to x/ : we aren’t raising it.
We shd. put ourselves in the wrong by obstruct. 2nd point.
A.
I wd. submit memo. explaining position.
C.E.
Don’t object to 2nd point. Opposed to 1st because want to do nothing to
strengthen H/Lords. Conservatives will continue their traditional policy of
ruling the country thro’ H/Lords when in minority in H/Commons.
Agreed :
(oppose 1st and 3rd proposals.
(accept 2nd on initiative of others.
A. to ascertain in first instance views of H.M. the King.
455
17th January 1946.
C.M.6 (46)
1.
P.M.
Parliament.
Thursday. Debate on Civil Aviation. Parly. Secy. C/A. shd. be one speaker
– but Cab. Minister also needed.
Need to buy some U.S. aircraft to avoid U.S. scooping all air traffic.
H.D.
Agreed to dollars for that – for stop-gap – either 4 Constellations or 4
Boeings. But diffens. of view between Bennett and M/C. A. B. says
Lancastrian can fly Atlantic.
For considn. wthr. Lanc. shd. be put on Atlantic by S.A. Corpn.
P.M.
These ques. cd. be considered by Cab. on Tuesday.
R.S.C.
BOAC have refused to order B. planes – stalling because want to buy U.S.
planes – due to Critchley. Now trying to pinch R.A.F. planes. Sure this
was concerted policy. Shd. be full enquiry into this.
P.M.
Agreed.
H.M.
Need for settled policy before Debate.
P.M.
Let H.M. go into this. Agreed.
P.M.
Parly. Secy. to open : Cab. Minister (presumably H.M.).
A.
B/E. Bill – Tuesday. No petition yet. May get away w’out Cttee. as for
hybrid Bill.
H.D.
Catto is willing to speak from cross benches.
A.
P.L. will be in charge.
P.M.
Statement on Tuesday re. atomic energy full-scale prodn. Read it out.
No comment made.
H.D.
Control of Investment Bill – decided not to print durg. recess. Will be out
on Wed. Don’t want N.I. Bill publd. that day.
H.M.
6 and 7 Feb. for Second Rdg. of N.I. Bill. Want clear 2 wks. Opposn.
originally asked for 3 wks.
W.W.
5 Feb. for 2nd Rdg. of C/Invest. Bill.
Agreed : H.M. Ch. Whip to consider how to avoid a clash.
456
P.M.
Cab. can meet next wk. on Tuesday. Thereafter revert to Mondays.
C.E.
Thursday will be awkward because of Standg. Cttees.
2.
N. Insurance Bill : Limitation of Unemployment Benefit.
A.G.
Explained views of S. Services Cttee.
J.G.
Consultns. with Assistce. Bd. clear only 3 provns. wh. cd. be effectively
relaxed –
a) Savings. Disregard 1st £25 and rank every next £25 as = 6d. p.wk. In
addn. war savings up to £375 disregarded. This must now be related to war
savings : and legn. of genl. scope wd. be requd. b) Mixed household incldg.
applicant for assistce. and another earning. 7/= of earnings regarded as
available for relief of applicant. Any redn. in this amount wdn’t meet the
grievance. c) Scales themselves. Wd. be reviewed in context of the Act
wh. diff. betwn. householders and non-householders. Diffce. for nonhouseholders is v. large : single man over 21 wd. lose 11/= p.wk. on
transfer fr. benefit to assistance. Unless v. steep increase in scale there wd.
be substantial drop.
No longer theoretical because unempt. increasg. in areas where memories
are bitter.
Will be dispute therefore in Parlt. on basis of attack on means test for
unemployed.
Revival of old controversy in bitter form – v. dangerous.
Hence scheme for special credit for 2 years. Wd. cover most cases.
Finance out of reserve in Fund, w’out comg. on to contributions. £100 m.
of these reserves are to be paid into current a/c of new scheme.
H.D.
Disturbed by this. Re-opens Cab. decn. in wh. we attached great importnce.
to preservg. solvency of Fund.
Defeatist proposal. We fought election on full emplt. policy – great labour
shortage – yet we have so little faith in that we propose scheme in wh.
people can live for 2½ years on the Fund. That surely is a shocking
proposal to put fwd. on basis such cases will be numerous.
Developmt. Area policy – is surely a failure if this risk is real. And if it is,
remedy shd. be overhaul of dev. area policy.
Thought we decided there shd. be overhaul of Assistance scheme. Stand
by that. Still ought to be done.
Cd. this be brought to an end after 2 yrs. Same argumts. cd. be used for
permanent provn. on same lines.
457
Fund. Wd. be wrong to begin to draw on reserves.
Emplt. Policy. This is not the emergency period : it’s about 2 yrs. hence
tht. deflation may begin. That is the time for wh. we need our reserves.
That will be a national emergency. This proposal is addressed only to
develop. areas, a local problem only. But if it is passed, as genl. issue,
problems in adminn. everywhere.
Expediency. The Bill as a whole will be welcomed warmly. On Cttee. if v.
strong feelings expd. We could look at it again. Sorry to do this at any stage
: but don’t do it now.
Thus on merits, don’t do it at all. On tactics, don’t do anything now.
P.M.
Where are these long-term unemployed?
G.A.I.
Only heard of women in Wrexham who are exhaustg. benefit.
Not mobile : many not really askg. genuinely for work.
J.G.
Largely men. V. few women can qualify for assistance.
V. E. Day redn. in munitions strengths and no other emplt. found.
R.S.C.
Pockets in developmt. areas. 4 M. Tydfil.
Up to date we’ve potentially provided emplt. for 50% of pre-war
unemployed.
Hope 100% by end/46. But lay of 12/18 months before factories begin to
operate – 1947 or 48 before all unemployed absorbed.
Assume ¼ m. unempld. by end/46 in dev. areas – of ½ m. total.
And 15% over 6 and 15% over 12 months unemployed in devel. areas.
Much smaller percentage outside devel. areas.
Thus end/46, 37.500 over 12 mos. unempld. in devel. areas.
Outside devel. areas nos wd. be comp. small.
P.M.
But problem then = you have covered those not intendg. to go on workg.
R.S.C.
Yes : married women as after last war.
J.G.
Pre-war up to 1940. Regns. applying special condns. to m. women. These
were suspended in 1940. My Bill gives power to make such Regs.
I shd. consult with M/L. in time to introduce. Wd. also cover seasonal
workers.
458
A.B.
It was accumulation of unemployed (for over 6 mos.) in devel, areas tht.
had S.S. Cttee to support this proposal.
Argument at Cab. – not a charge on contribns. in Fund. Agree some force in
that.
But C/E can take charge of that – direct Ty. response to above on certain
figure.
Second argument – don’t pay people who don’t intend to work. Agree with
that. But it isn’t the fact we face in devel. areas. There is no work there yet.
How justify movg. those people to lower rate.
The lead swinger is on Assistance because in most parts of country there is
work to offer him and he loses benefit if he refuses.
Women: This is being cured or mitigated. The good contn. record is not
now in operation and they are being pushed out of insurance. In other
areas they can be offered work.
Parly. tactics. You cdn’t. hold this posn. re. criticism. Most bitter
memories.
Can’t stand up to criticism on bad case.
E.B.
Agree regarding drop in benefit – don’t want to defend that. Tho’ why
base it on single man, for surely he can be treated as mobile.
Suggest, as compromise, test of availability for emplt. on end/benefit of 30
weeks.
Not prepd. to abandon insurance principle of this scheme.
I reserved £100 m. durg. Coalition Govt – for special diffies. of demobn.
period passing over balance for new Fund.
If man can satisfy Bd./Referees tht. he is available and can’t be found
work, empower them to authorise exchange to pay (from the special Fund)
for specified no. of weeks. All this to be outside ordinary Fund. And no
means test. But man shd. have to do somethg. after the 30 wks : it shd. not
be automatic.
H.M.
Who wd. remain with Assistance then?
E.B.
V. few unemployed. Only sub-normal.
Wd. enable exchange and to make single man to move.
459
I.G.
This wd. meet the major problem.
E.B.
Tempy. or permanent? I wd. limit it to 5 years. But wd have duration of
extended benefit unlimited at discretion of Ct/Referees.
H.D.
Accept E.B.’s suggn. in principle – subject to scrutiny of details.
Want opportunity also to look into the £100 m. point.
H.M.
I wdn’t have accepted the 2 year proposal wh. wd. have bn. unreal
This may be a way out. We cd. experiment with this for a period.
Time fact or on presentn. of Bill. We can’t keep our promise to have this
Bill out before House resumed. There’s sure to be a row if not out next wk.
Cdn’t we take power to deal with this by Regn?
You may need legn. to use the £100 m.
E.B.
Doubt it.
Agreed : H.D. to settle with J.G. (and E.B. if possible) today.
Variation of Contributions.
P.M.
Was intended tht. this shd. be automatic. Now proposed it shd. be
discretionary.
That wd. be dangerous : because wd. be said Govt. cd. use it just before
election.
H.D.
We objected to automatic movement. a) No date to measure normal
postwar unemplt. b) Politically objectionable, even if cd. be done because
it wd. appear tht. we expected certain level of unemployment. c) Wd. lead
to complacency at any unemplt. lower than average.
Concluded therefore in favour of general powers. Nicholson’s point on
Ministers – thus then wd. be an automatic relation to a fixed point.
H.M.
We cd. promise H/C. tht. in Rgs. we would do our best to introduce
automatic factor.
R.S.C.
Protection in Affirm. Resoln
J.
Failed to find at this stage an objective test.
3.
E.B.
Spain.
Apptn. for Don Juan, Giral and Gil Robles to come to (or thro’) U.K.
460
Diff. to grant one and refuse other.
Agreed that all may come subject to good behaviour.
E.W.
G. Robles is a v. bad man.
C.E.
First I’ve heard of this : and responsibility is mine not F.O.S.
Ready to consult E.B.
F.O to consult H.O.
P.M.
Against G. Robles comg. here.
461
22ND January 1946
C.M.7 (46)
1.
P.M.
India : Constitutional Position.
Summarised policy re. elections : Executive Council.
Viceroy’s proposals – to begin consultns. early : after Punjab elections. I. &
B. Cttee. doubtful about this scheme. W’s breakdown plan.
Situation will become v. critical by April – even if Indonesia cleared up by
then.
Satisfied we can’t conduct these v. diff. negotiations esp. as he wd. have to
keep referring home.
Also unsatisf. tht. main response for day to day Govt. shd. undertake
negotns. re. future/India.
Propose therefore to send out Ministers from here to conduct the
negotiations.
Choices
a) man on spot.
b) one chosen emissary.
c) one Minister.
Objns. as above.
Diff. to find the man and he
cdn’t have wide powers to
act, not being a Minister.
Wd. be isolated in India. no
opp. to discuss with anyone.
Hence, my view is : send out 3 Ministers.
Take the negotns. as somethg. apart fr. current Govt. (thus, no reflection on
W.).
Cab. shd. lay down broad framework w’in wh. 3 Ministers shd. operate.
Quickly and reported to Cab.
Won’t discuss names. Want decision in principle.
Wd strike imaginn of India. Wd. appear a fresh approach. Offer best
chance.
P.L.
Emphasised need to do this job at 1 stroke not 3, as contempl. by W. Ind.
Parties will want to see whole picture before agreeing to any part.
W. wd. be drawn at once into major issues as soon as started on re-formn.
of Ex. Council.
462
W’s participn. in negot-ns. Agree not an ideal negotiator. But a) W. tho’ not
a politician, commands gt. respect in India. Unfortunate therefore to
appear to proceed w’out him. b) From his angle, he wd. be upset if he were
by-passed and might resign. That wd. increase our diffies. My concluns. wd.
be to keep him as one of the negotiators.
R.S.L.
Support P.M.’s point on a) and c). No Civ. Serv. to discuss with.
Thus, favour 3 Ministers. Believe it wd. be useful to form Cttee of 4 with ?
– for reasons given by P.L. The 3 Ministers wd. outweigh him.
Need for capacity to take quick decisions, which only Ministers wd. have.
R.L.
Add tht. if I am to go I shd. welcome assistance of other Ministers.
H.D.
When? P.M. Mid-March. Decisive election will finish 30/3. They shd. be
there before. Prpn. of directive shd. start at once. P.L. Announce it by
mid/February.
A.B.
Little time to consider Indian ques. But recent conversns. suggest Pakistan
is now much more a live issue than ever.
Agree W. can’t do this. But is not unpopular as Labour Govt. is. Danger of
imprn. tht. we are going out to restrain W. from doing somethg. non
acceptable to India. Can we avoid that?
R.S.C.
If W. assocd. with the Ministers, don’t believe that view will be expld.
T.W.
Surely W. wd. assent to this proposal – and India recognises it was more
than any prev. Govt. has done. Drastic and startling ? requd. and this wd. be
one.
A.B.
Appointmt. of Indians as Govs?
R.M.
One just appt. is Orissa. A.B. can more be done in this way.
P.M.
No : real trouble is centre, not provinces.
R.S.C.
And Indians admit there are few suitable Indians.
H.M.
Supported P.M.’s proposal.
J.J.L.
True tht. W. : Auchinleck are v. popular in India. But mainly in a military
sense. If W. negotiated, the venom of extreme politicians wd. be directed
at him. I wd. prefer, for his sake, tht. he was left outside. But see risk of
misunderstandg. Prs. best therefore to associate him with the 3 Ministers.
H.D.
If this fails – what next? This wd. be last dipl. card. and played.
463
? Hold Ministers in reserve, letting W. start. On the whole, I dn’t
recommend that.
A.B.
Take out T. Unionist and economists to distract fr. morbid concentn. on
constitun. problem.
P.M.
No. can’t divert to economies people who want to talk of politics.
A.B.
There are currents of opinion wh. cd. be focussed.
R.S.C.
Ministers’ P. Assistants offer the means of doing this.
E.Sh.
Soundings of moderate opinion in India?
R.S.C.
A no. of such people have made this suggn. to me.
S.
Indian Govs. Simba was a failure.
Indian T.U. too weak to form an element.
Isolation of Viceroy – agree. Halifax found same thing.
Moderate v. nice, but command no support when it comes to brass-tacks.
A.M.
Keep in B. Commonwealth. And see tht. C & S. views all known.
J.J.L.
Favoured keeping W. as much out of this as possible, for sake of over
popularity.
P.L.
He has discussed these things before – and has announced will be doing it
again.
And he has given much thought to these problems.
R.S.C.
Enough if he is associated with the Ministerial Mission.
A.V.A.
Accept in principle – let Cab. scrutinise directives.
Agreed.
2.
E.B.
[Enter C.O.S. Barnes. Ismay]
Greece. Indonesia. Russian Resolution at U.N.O.
This is diversionary tactics by Russia. May hope to frighten me into
agreeing tht. Persia may be w’drawn if nothg. said on G. of Indonesia.
I shan’t play on that.
I intend to say tht. if Gk. Govt. makes a request I shan’t exercise veto.
Indonesia. More diff. because we are carry out orders of C. Cos Supreme
Co? Doubt if this is proper for S., Council. Must consult Dutch. Acceptg.
surrender.
464
Will consult P.M. as to what I say.
General line approved.
3.
E.B.
Pacific Islands.
Raised with Def. Cttees. Some of islands are disputed as betw. us and U.S.
v. desirable to clear it up. Aust. and N.Z. are affected. U.S. were going to
negotiate separately with Doms. Didn’t like that. Agreed this a.m. mil.
Cttee and pol. assessors to meet in W’ton after U.N.O. Canada and S. Afr.
don’t want to participate. Have agreed, subject to Cab. we should nominate
mil. and pol. repns. to go to W’ton for these discussions.
U.S. today not adverse to my suggns. tht. any surrender of territory be
counted re Loan.
Have kept Atlantic out of this talk. Separate issue.
A.V.A.
Thought Truman had said he didn’t want to acquire – was ready to accept
Trusteeship.
E.B.
Ignore Press conference rpts. from U.S.
Agreed.
4.
E.B.
Polish Armed Forces.
Situation getting serious. Poles now largest Allied Force in Italy.
W.S.C.’s pledge – most unfortunate – made without authority.
Problem of over 200.000 men – when I approach Doms. : Colonies or
H.O. I get no help. B. Emp. tho’ representg. 1/6th of world’s surface can
never absorb anything!
Must bring this business to a head. If it went to Sec. Council or became
public scandal I wd. have no defence.
As repatn,. proceeds, Polish Army becomes mainly officers!
Big nigger = Anders.
Want to be fair. If we demobilise I wd. give them same privileges as B.
soldiers demobilised. Wd. like Ty. to reconsider ques. of gratuity and paid
furlough.
When we’ve done our best, we shall be lucky if we get 100.000 back to
Poland.
Remainder of 100.000. Hope R.A.F. and army can absorb some of these.
465
Rest – why can’t they be assimilated in this period of man power
stringency. Wd. also hope D.O. and C.O. wd. play too – on proportionate
basis.
Ask for adoption of my Paper in principle – tho’ I appreciate the points
raised in mema. by C.O.S. and S/S for Air.
C.A.S.
Our nos. are relatively small. We cd. absorb some into R.A.F.
If Polish Govt. wd. accept them as units, they cd. be willing to go.
C.I.G.S.
Anders = main stumbling block. Imposs,. to convert him fr. his strong
views.
We do owe him debt of gratitude.
x/. Get Cmmrs. together and let P.M. or E.B. address. They won’t convert
: cd. explain.
If they turn nasty it will be awkward in Italy because so many of them.
First step is x/.
P.M.
E.B. and I will both see them.
C.G.
What powers to keep Anders here, as proposed in para. 5 of C.O.S. paper?
I wd. have no answer to a habeas corpus appln.
R.M.
Poles are under our command. Can we not control their movements?
C.I.G.S.
Probably, yes. Wdn’t put him under arrest – wd. cause some trouble in
Italy.
Cd. prob. post him to Scotland.
R.M.
Agree : control must be military not civil action. H.O. is let out.
C.E.
What of natn. of remaining Poles? Discuss now or postpone.
E.B.
Don’t want it announced now tht. any facilities will be given to remainder.
Otherwise, no one will go back to Poland. But I must be assured that when
we do get down to the hard core I shall have support from my colleagues
in providing reasonable facilities.
C.E.
Individual natn. cases will have to be sponsored by B. authies. Polish
certificates are not reliable, as our experience has shown.
E.B.
Must face the fact tht. Polish Govt,. will de-nationalise those who
eventually decide against return.
466
H.M.
Sympathy with H.O. view.
A.
Don’t wish to make any further dif. approach to Doms. yet. The only one
who has made any gesture of willingness : Australia. All others have
declined to take more people. Haven’t made formal approach to them.
H.D.
Armed Forces have cost £2½m. p. month since we recognised P.P.G. –
apart fr. other expre. on civilians. Want to get these nos down.
No approach made to me for better demoln. facilities. I will consider this
with pro Polish bias.
At right time v. strong pressure shd. be brought on Doms.
J.J.L.
At later stage, we shd. consider how we cd. absorb remainder into B.
Forces.
G.A.
May M/L be added to Cttee. suggd. by S. in his memo.
P.M.
Later stage.
A.B.
Need to disperse Forces into units wh. can be controlled.
Barnes.
Para 7. a)
Want this re-considered. Don’t want land route closed
entirely to these.
b)
Were to hand back 2 Pol passenger ships when U.M.A.
ends in March.
Must now tell P.P.G. We must keep these for this purpose.
On a) we cdn’t get them thro’ R. Zone in Germany. And we’ve enough to
do with d.p.’s Allied Council wd. delay for months.
Barnes.
Then other movements must be affected.
E.B.
Will consult M/W.T. in due course.
Memo approved.
5.
E.B.
[Exit Barnes.]
Revision of Anglo Egyptian Treaty.
Will raise whole ques. of M/E Defence.
C.I.G.S. talks in Cairo are beginning to bear fruit.
My aim – get joint Anglo. Eg. Defence via B. occupation Force. Means at
last.
467
Eg. help in w’shops and ancillary services. Wd. help with sterling
balances.
They’ve raised Sudan. I’ve ruled it out – it’s prestige point with Egypt.
I’ve had to delay this – Egypt anxious to go on.
C.I.G.S.
We discussed memo. with F.O. and have no comment.
R.S.C.
W.O. help with our commercial treaty. But remember tht. if comm. clauses
of existg. treaty disappeared before commercial treaty negotiated, it wd. be
awkward. B/T. shd. therefore be kept in touch.
Agreed.
6.
A.B.
Housing Accommodation – Use of Requisitioning Powers.
Asked Serv. Ministers to overhaul de-requis. machinery. esp. in Ldn.
Independently other Dpts. have req. powers.
Suggest no Dpt. shd. requisition housg. accommn. w’out reference to
M/Health.
P.M.
Shd. be pulled together
Is it necessary to hawk round to other Dpts. to see if its still wanted.
E.B.
War-time device – prob. outlived its usefulness.
P.M.
I will get report fr. M/W. on machinery.
468
24th January 1946
C.M.8 (46)
1.
Parliament
H.M.
Mon: Water (Scotland).
J.W.
Compliments to Under Secretaries while I was away.
H.M.
Tues. & Wed : Coal 2nd Rdg. F. Resn.
Consulted E.Sh. re spkers. He shd. open : Foster shd. speak : H.M. to
speak : also C/Exch.
P.M.
Watch how it goes : A.G. might have to speak if legal complns. stressed.
L.O. shd. be on bench.
A.B.
Oppsn. are beginning to watch re. absence of L.O’s may have trouble soon.
W.W.
Suspend on 2nd day for F. Resoln.
Not much oppty. for back-benchers if 8 Fr. Bench spkrs.? Suspend
therefore for 1st day to give more time : e.g. 2 hours. Agreed. On 2nd day
ordinary course, but spend for F. Resn.
H.M.
Thurs: Land Acquisitions : M/H. and T.C.P. to wind up. Ministers
concerned to be on Bench.
Fri: Education Bill + (if time) further stages of transfer of powers.
H.M.
Motion at Party Mtg. urging Govt. to seek internatl. agreement for no
conscription. R. Davies & Sorensen. Might be awkward situation at mtg.
Cd. P.M. or E.B. attend? Yes.
[Exit W.W.]
A.
Tues. St. Settlement Bill. Orders won’t even be laid. There will be opposn.
on principle. Wd. like guidance – what line re. opposition.
H.M.
Mtg. with A.G. and C.O. Friday on this Bill W. Paper shows in advance
what we are going to do. Don’t commit ourselves to view wht. Aff. Resn. is
needed even for this kind of thing.
A.
W. Paper doesn’t cover intentns. of future Govts.
H.M.
Awkward - Progative involved. Will brief A. before Debate.
2.
T.W.
Working of Open-cast Coal at Wentworth.
At L.P. Cttee I expd. apprehension re loss of timber. Since consulted F.
Commn. and in view of need for pit timber I now w’draw my opposn. on
that point.
469
[Exit T.W.]
H.D.
Introduced.
E.Sh.
Decision of such importance tht. I cd. take a negative only Cabinet.
Admit open-cast working must involve disturbance of amenities.
[Exit C.E.]
Admit these quantities are infinitesimal cpd. with what is obtd. by deep
mining in the area.
Wdn’t bother about this if situation didn’t demand every ounce of coal.
Rotherham petition T.C.P. re. amenities but at same time petition use re
shortage of domestic coal.
Read letter from Parling. local Member, concludg. tht. E. Sh. compromise
is reasonable and tht. no evce. of violent or widespread opposn. locally.
T.C.P.’s recommn. – 146.000t. only – is not an economic proposition.
About 350.000t. is lowest quantity worth working.
Re amenities : statements are exaggerated – c.o.p. as regards free access
for public. Can get the coal in 8 months – restore the land in 12 months.
Will yield ¾ week’s supply of locomotive coal.
L.S.
Have stated view in memo.
Conflict between amenity : coal. ques. for Cab. is wthr. price is too high or
not.
This Park is only of the 6 or so finest lay-out of landscape wh. we have.
Will be destroyed forever.
It is in one of the grimmest areas. People can go in : immaterial how freely
they can roam.
G.H.G. said if he cd. work some he wd. work no more. Now asked re-open
that. Thought compromise wh. I had suggested reasonable – do what you
like if you can restore in 5 years.
But he wants to destroy beech avenue, and a wood.
Ready now to go further – Site A can be worked up to w’in 50 feet of
beech trees. This will give extra 50-70.000 tons.
Site B. My view has been tht. to work southern side wd. destroy northern
trees. I will now take that risk. That will give 25.000t. additional.
470
Then we wd. work 240.000t. vice desired sum of 371.000.t.
A.V.A.
This is great area for Rambler Societies. Remember that.
H.M.
My fear is wthr. T.C.P. may have gone too far in his concessions.
Need for beauty and amenity in lives of miners and others in Lancs. and
Yorks.
If we have to desecrate these beauties because of absenteeism in the mines.
Amenity rows are not lightly to be entered into. Bad for this Govt. to
plunge into one, w’out a cast-iron case.
A.B.
Scepticism of miners of open-cast mining. They think it vandalistic
substitute for past good mining. One of gt. diffies. of mining : destn. of local
amenities. In S. Wales they have tormented the hill-sides and we have
nowhere to walk on the hills anymore.
J.J.L.
Devastation of timber in mining areas. Save the beech trees.
E.M.
Que. now, this is only extension of work in progress.
The further concession made today by T.C.P. goes about as far as is
reasonable.
E.Sh.
I will go into this on that basis with T.C.P. on details.
[Exit L.S.]
3.
Civil Service : Conscientious Objectors.
H.D.
This : only point now outstanding. Suggest now 1.7.46. – Agreed.
A.B.
Distressed at attitude of L.C.C. – won’t employ anyone convicted during
war of sedition.
471
28th January 1946
C.M.9 (46).
1.
E.B.
Rumania.
Discd. Moscow – Commn. to visit. C.K. went: fixed up. But Groza ratting
on date of electns after Harriman and V. left. Have sought informn. on this
fr. Amb. there.
V. saw me Sat: asked wht. we were doing : told him of this disquieting
report.
He said he hadn’t heard and they were going on as agreed.
Agreed with Byrnes on date, about Mon next : and promised to
communicate this week.
In view of V.’s assurance – propose we go ahead : recognise by exchange
of notes simultaneously with U.S.
Will tell V. we must first be sure elections in Spring as arranged.
2.
E.B.
Bulgaria.
U.S. raised and asked for new elections. I supported. Plan agreed was that
Sov. Govt. shd. handle it.
V. went to B : Opposn. Parties won’t enter Govt because of condns.
V. thinks tht. Sov. havg. done their part, we shd. either tell Oppn. Parties to
go into Govt. or recognise.
Posn. in B. v. confused : can’t make any recommendation today. Have
asked Byrne for a/c of stormy talk he had with V. before leavg. Ldn. Also
asked our Amb. for up to date appreciation.
Sov. authies. angry tht. U.S. sent Etheridge then Parti pris V. said conduct
of our Amb. has bn. proper : but U.S. Minister influenced opposn. parties v.
joining Govt.
I have never approved hard line taken by U.S. in Potsdam Conference.
Wd. have preferred to open up Balkans thro’ trade etc.
Propose recognise R : get further rpt. on B : may get it cleared in 2/3 wks.
time.
3.
Persia.
V. coming with Chairman at 12.15 to discuss procedure.
This has brought out “war of nerves” tactics – and V. may be realising tht.
these are not profitable. May get a change of attitude over this. Need for
great care.
472
Must stop this trick of “negotiating” with large nos. of troops in the
country and setting up “stooge” Govts. We used to do it – but it’s out of
date.
V. feels, I think, it was an error to put Greece and Indonesia up.
A.B.
E.B. has secured moral ascendancy at Conference. Hope no w’drawal now
of Greece and Indonesia because Persian Govt. willing to negotiate direct
with R.
E.B.
No fear of that.
New P.M. in Persia is a Russian stooge.
R.S.C.
Not a bad chap for a Persian.
4.
C.E.
Airfields – Land Policy.
Cttee have discussed in consultn. with all Dpts. concerned.
Diffy. of numerous finances etc.
Discn. in H/Lds. Thursday. Cttee wish Ld. Chanc. make statement on Govt.
policy.
H.D.
Accepted by Ty.
A.
Recommn. confined to multiple ownership cases. What is to be our general
policy?
Concerned because Boreham airfield, owned by Lord Perry. Used 6 mos.
and since then derelict. He offered to take it for assembling tractors for
export.
Negotiations dragging on for a year.
C.E.
Am to discuss this case with A. this p.m.
E.M.
Why delay? What have Cttees been doing?
I.W.
Rpt. covers single – as well as multiple ownership. Cases like this will be
considered if policy approved.
P.M.
x/. Will C.E. report to me on the particular case of Boreham.
J.
I visited y’day some airfields nr. Chelmsford. clear can’t root up the
runways.
473
Ag. Cttee have done some ploughing at Ch. Ongar, but no one knows what
future will be. No doubt this policy is right.
A.B.
Para. 7. If policy decided, don’t wait for total decn. over whole country.
Proceed individually – otherwise receivg. dpts. will be overwhelmed.
Second requirement in para. 7. Surely can’t be acceptable?
P.M.
Not without due considn. by Ministers.
E.Sh.
How many men engaged in looking after derelict airfields?
S.
Many of them have good deal to do – odd jobs of various kinds.
H.D.
All v. slow.
S.
Dpts. using many – others agriculture.
C.E.
Am proposing to put the heat on.
I.W.
Urged speed – for sake of next harvest.
A.B.
Why not use the telephone vice Cttee. A clearance officer.
R.S.C.
Cdn’t Lindsell do it?
P.M.
I will look into the organisation required.
E.B.
Use runways (with additions) to improve road communications in rural
areas.
Let Cttee. consider that.
I.T.
Civil Aviation ready to let these go.
[Exeunt Thomas and Marshall]
5.
Monthly Digest of Statistics.
P.M.
Useful tht. Cab. shd. see. Must watch how much informn. we make
available [to critics].
H.M.
Black out durg. war. Lifting: but criticism eg in Times that you can’t
expect public to co-operate in econ. policy w’out knowg. the facts.
Dpts. have bn. and will continue to be published.
Agree – pol. embarrassment fr. time to time. But that is not a justification
for w’holding this sort of informn. (in a democracy).
474
A.B.
We have appd. But it will be diff. to marry this with my monthly statement.
E.Sh.
Omission – oil because of security objns. May have to add later.
R.S.C.
Supported.
E.B.
Will it be embarrassing qua supplies to other countries in need.
H.D.
No : for it carries back to pre-war figures.
Size. Shdn’t be much bigger net. Asked wthr. it is all needed monthly.
Was told that this was what experts want – also cheaper. Still, don’t think
it shd. expand.
E.B.
Wd. prefer quarterly vice monthly issue.
A.B.
That wd. help me.
H.M.
x/. Let me look at this and settle it with P.M.
E.B.
Will you include nothg. v currency?
H.D.
Tables 105-108. contain a good deal.
G.A.I.
Press Conference?
P.M.
Has bn. arranged.
Approved. subject to x/.
6.
H.M.
Wales and Monmouthshire.
Awkward because gr. bulk of Wales Parly. Party have pledged themselves
to idea of separate S/S for Wales.
But the more it is examined the more it is found impracticable.
Coalition Govt : M.G. Cttee. after consusltg. G. H. George recommended
against.
M.G. Cttee. under this Govt. endorse – after consultg. A.B. and G.H.
We think, not only no case pro but wd. actually damage Welsh adminn.
Scottish parallel : Scottish case rests on dissimilarities in law etc. which
don’t apply in Wales.
475
Considered then – can anything else be done. a) Devolution to Regions –
special conn. for Wales. b) Remember Wales appointing on Govt. Cttees.
Maybe later we can think of other little things to help.
Suggest next PQ. be answered in negative : and give facilities for Debate if
needed.
J.
W. Advisory Cttee. cd. be used as a sop.
H.M.
This Reconstn. Adv. Council has come to a standstill. Was going to ask
tentatively wthr. it need continue. Wd. do so if it wd. please Wales.
A.B.
Agitation fr. 2 sources. a) Separate identity for mid and N. Wales.
b) Distress in S. Wales.
Success of economic reconstn. in S. Wales wd. see the end of this agitation.
Good deal of disagreement in W. Parly. Party.
W. Bd of Health is a v. reactionary and inefficient body.
J.W.
Good suggn. in Rpt. If U.K. Dpts. wd. put Senior Civil Serv. in Wales and
Scotland who had direct access to the Minister it wd. check growth of
Nationalist movements.
Remedy : is in our hands.
[Another point not heard ….]
Consult Scotland re memo. We cd. help.
P.M.
Clue to this : economic diffies. : and it is the Econ. Dpts. which most of all
shd. have a G.B. jurisdiction.
E.B.
Confirmn. you can never get a simple Welsh Region. My. T.U. experience.
P.M. to give reasoned answer on these lines – when asked.
[ Exit E.B.]
7.
C.E.
National Day of Remembrance.
Those consulted feel strongly and unanimously in favour of Nov. 11.
All I cd. do was to persuade them to have it on a Sunday – to avoid 2 days.
Another factor : U.S. has made Nov. 11. a stat. public holiday. We wanted
to keep in step with U.S. and it wdn’t be easy for them to alter their date –
cd. need legn.
476
A.
May I inform Doms. before submn. to H.M.
P.M.
Meanwhile consult with Leaders of Oppn.
8.
S.
Agreed.
Strikes in R.A.F.
No. of strikes in Transport Command. 12, of which 9 settled. Press have 2
others reported not yet known to me officially.
Steps taken. Demob form and addresses by officers.
Ready to go on as now. But might have statement by P.M. in reply to P.
Notice Ques today.
Visit of S/S for war to M/E. went far to stave off similar trouble in Army.
P.M.
Wait for Ques on Paper and let Strachey answer.
E/Sh.
Let Strachey go out?
S.
a) Nothg. more to say. b) Encourages disobedience.
P.M.
Wd. be mistake – wd. undermine posn. of Commrs. once trouble has arisen.
J.J.L.
I advised J. not to go out because airfields so numerous and personnel so
scattered.
A.B.
Para. 3 at end. Meaning?
S.
They don’t deny that machinery is worked well. But they are dissatisfied
with rate of release.
H.D.
But sanction wd. be to p’pone release groups.
E.Sh.
This is India. Need for v. special treatment. Repeat my suggn. of sending
some Minister out.
S.
Began in India : but not limited to that.
P.M.
And sending out Under Secy. won’t help because he can’t alter the policy.
S.
Just received signal from Singapore. Read it out at P.M.’s request.
Park. also urgent early statement by Govt. – on points specified.
H.M.
“Organised movement”. Political?
S.
Transport Command. D. Worker doesn’t carry the story.
477
We can’t permit outsiders to come betwn. offrs. and men in time of
mutiny.
Wd. be opposed to visit by Parl. Delegation now in India.
J.J.L.
Speed up of demobns was secured by air trooping. This means heavy
weight on Transport Command.
P.M.
This needs emphasis. Appeal to their public spirit.
S.
Doesn’t apply to all.
R.S.C.
Shdn’t the draft answer meet the specific complete reported by Park?
S.
May I read the draft, which is being criticised? Did so.
C.E.
Delay in release of particular trades eg. accountants is causing real trouble.
Need for warmth in the statement – which shd. be made on the spot by
officer in authority.
And don’t use the work “mutiny” in the field.
A.B.
P.M. must take the responsibility for makg. statement.
P.M.
Will do it tomorrow (if not prevented by P.Q.’s) on the Paper. Get you
A.M.P. to consult F. Williams.
A.V.A.
Increased releases. Must look at policy as a whole. May cause more
friction, as between groups.
S.
Wd. help if we cd. anticipate increased release.
9.
H.M.
Coal Bill.
Opposn. askg. wthr. Coal Bill is going upstairs. It must a) because we must
act on our policy for Parly. reform. b) Because anyway we haven’t Parly.
times.
We shall have to vote them down.
E.Sh.
Money Resoln. I will move it. Shd. there be a reply?
H.M.
Cd. move on ? and offer to reply.
10.
P.L.
India : Food Situation.
Telegram from Viceroy. Situation v. serious. Call attentn. to this because
we are to have discn. on Food sitn. on Thursday.
478
31st January 1946.
C.M.10(46).
1.
Parliament.
H.M.
Gave particulars.
A.G.
Friday looks thin. Last Mon. we cd. have done more. Time now to pack in
the odds and ends.
H.M.
We’re not short, in genl. of legisln. Not looking for more Bills.
W.W.
Investment and Control Bill can go to Cttee upstairs. H.D. Agreed.
P.M.
Congratulations to Ministers on Coal Bill.
E.Sh.
Thanks to H.M. and M.D.
2.
Fees for Wireless Licences.
H.M.
4 P.Q.s – re payment by o.a.pensioners : some add widows etc.
Sentimental but may be troublesome. M.o.l. favour giving way at once.
Don’t like starting down this slope – which = special case.
Just about to increase pensions. Widows follow.
P.M.
Supported these doubts.
H.D.
House in sentimental mood. But objectionable concession – door wd. be
pushed wider open. Exemptions for administration change undesirable.
£600.000 additional cost – for o.a.p. and widows. That isn’t much : it’s the
principle that matters. Wdn’t resist to last ditch.
R.K.
Instalments?
L.
Cost about the same. - £¼m.
Discrimination wd = arbitrary : and I wd. need statutory authority.
H.M.
Advise try to hold the position.
J.G.
Only 2 ways practicable a) on prodn. of o.a.p. book.
b) limit to those receivg.
b) 1.600.000 in receipt – o.a.p. and widows.
a) 2.400.00 additional i.e. not supplementary, includg. many in work.
J.W.
Diff. to discriminate : and many o.a.p. have earnings.
T.W.
No discrimination.
x/. Households – who owns the wireless?
479
A.G.
No room for legn.
P.M.
Stressed x/ : this will be a racket.
Agreed : stand up against this proposal.
[Exeunt W.W. Listowel J.G.]
3.
Meeting of Dominion Prime Ministers.
P.M.
No announcement yet : will get into touch.
R.S.C.
Prelim. Dom. Conf. May on I.T.A. Fairly high level.
H.D.
V. useful in case loan doesn’t go thro’. Shd. know by mid. April.
G.A.I.
Hold it in Dom. like here?
P.M.
They prefer to come here.
India will be included.
[Enter Smith, Hynd, Barnes, N. Barker]
2.
World Supplies of Cereals.
P.M.
Deal seriatim with main points.
Begin with U.K. position.
B.S.
Deficit is not statistical.
Worse: fear you won’t get out fr. U.S. wheat that is available – because of
transpt. and price.
C.F.B. now discussing final allocations.
Increased extraction rate will affect animal feed. Lose 450 m. eggs or 1½
m. pigs or 2¼ galls. milk.
Urged more sowing of spring wheat. To meet feed shortage we must even
risk shock to farmers. Grow cereals of all kinds, however uneconomic.
P.M.
Since allocns. agreed in principle, demands have increased cf fr. India.
Can’t oppose increase in extraction rate.
Draw attentn. to App. Can’t increase rations of feed, in acc. with promise
wh. means slaughter of store pigs and chicks. Will delay for 18 mos. hope
of addl. eggs and pig-meat. V. serious consequences to livestock policy
and producers. Will destroy confidence in promises re food rations : first
time we’ve failed to honour a promise all thro’ the war.
What waste of bread? Risk of feeding bread to chicks etc.
Cd. you tell public economy of bread will be necessary to get eggs etc.
480
Cd you equalise that way? What savings cd. you get eg. by not serving
bread with meals. B.S. May have to do that.
P.L.
Wd. raising our rate help to get U.S. to raise theirs?
R.S.C.
And you’d get economy more easily here if rate raised.
T.W.
Against that – more waste of high extraction bread.
General agreement to campaign v. waste of bread.
H.D.
What about reduction in flour confectionery?
E.W.
Too austere.
P.M.
Balance : lose much bread if you cut animal feed. Doubtful re extractions.
A.
Prefer tearing propaganda rice cakes.
E.B.
Last war we encouraged people to return stale bread to baker. Then use for
animal food. Much animal feed collected in 1917/18.
R.S.C.
Collection of swill now better organised. Dropped only 7½% since
end/war.
N.B.
Psych. effect on Europe etc. wd. be great if extraction rate raised plus
economy campaign and no bread with meals.
P.M.
116.000 tons saving by raising extraction rate.
But what wd. you then lose by bread being fed to animals : and how much
cd. you save by economy campaign.
B.S.
I can’t do w’out raising extractn. rates.
H.M.
Good publicity. Need also for follow-up measures, on B/Atlantic model,
with internatl. hook-up thro’ C.F.B.
N.B.
Conference of Mtrs/Agric. in March.
E.B.
a) M/Food w’less speech to give the facts. Nature as well as war : cause.
b) Discouragement of allotments wh. are dropping off. Appeal there.
c) Can we do more with fruit eg. from Med.
Believe things will improve after Sept 1946.
H.M.
Outlook for 1946/47 also bad.
B.S.
Fruit : dollars : from Doms. shipping : short of refrigerated tonnage.
J.J.L.
Publicity shd. take a/c of fact tht. some people are having a grim time –
queues etc.
481
T.W.
Allotments. Doing our best. But conflict with housing + playing fields etc.
E.Sh.
Supported J.J.L. Excessive consumption in hotels wd. bust it.
// Supra-departmental. P.M. must head off, and soon//
[Enter Bevan]
P.M.
I will speak later.
B.S.
Argentine. E.Sh. If they really must have oil, we cd. cut others.
N.B.
The political embargo by U.S. on supplies to Argentine has bn. w’drawn.
y/. Favour small B. mission to ascertain facts.
B.S.
Supported y/.
E.Sh.
What exact amounts of fuel and coal needed to get it out of Argentine.
P.M.
But if addl. food goes into pool, why shd. we send the supplies?
Barnes.
Spoke re increasg. extractns. rate – because core loss to agriculture : waste :
and effect on public opinion esp. among women.
Stocks still cd. take a further squeeze.
Recommend closer examn. and publicity before takg. decision.
R.S.C.
This isn’t first time we’ve considered.
B.S.
Canadian agreement. Lost 40.000 last year : 60.000 this month.
Canada won’t shift on this.
Fr. and R. willing and ready to ship at higher price.
Barnes.
Shd. be taken up at higher level with Canada.
T.W.
Canad. M/Agr. told me they have more stocks.
B.S.
They have some – but it wd. go into world pool.
E.B.
Shdn’t all the relevant facts and possible remedies be considered by an
official Cttee at a high level, before we reach final decisions.
P.M.
M/F. has given us comprehensive review since return from Washington.
H.M.
Good deal of discussion at official level already. If Cabinet can’t decide,
further examination by Ministers.
J.W.
My Dpt. haven’t bn. consulted.
P.L.
Telegrams today and y’day show Indian posn. even worse than as in memo.
482
B.S.
112.500 t. loan to Germany. Have asked for repayment. W.O. want me to
postpone repayment. If I do, I’m worse off.
R.S.C.
My Officials support M/Food proposals.
P.M.
On balance – Cabinet must decide today.
Agreed :
(Economy campaign – bread alone - with
(rules against bread in restaurants.
Postpone decision on extraction rate until later in meeting.
B.S.
U.S. now report shortfall of 62 m. bushels on export estimates.
Increase Acreage for Wheat etc. in U.K.
T.W.
Bonus wdn’t give us 50.000 acres more than we’d get anyway.
We wd. get 150.000 by appeal. £600.000 cost for another 50.000.
And you wd. get it at expense of barley – and in grain weight this wd. be a
net loss.
Thus prefer procedure in para. 4 of my memo.
H.D.
Bonus on all sown wd. cost £1½m. Wd. be a gross waste of money.
A.
Agree re bonus.
Good autumn sowing but much reversion to grass.
Wd. prefer appeal – but concentrated on spring wheat. Don’t want barley
and oats.
Agreed : at y/. J.W. Don’t want to be tied in Scotland
to wheat. Agreed.
Rice.
B.S.
Siam: a) On payment as under M/F. scheme.
b) Consumer goods.
c) Transport : flat bottomed boats.
World price £45 p. ton. Burma we pay £15. We might suggest same to
Siam.
Burma.
We believe 400.000 t. cd. be exported in first quarter.
Govt. offers only 50.000.
P.M.
Diffy. in internal transport.
R.S.C.
Can’t we send landing craft. Thought it was decided weeks ago.
483
A.V.A.
Cdn’t give men to take them out from here. Were going to spare some
from S.E.A.C. L.c. wd. be too big.
R.S.C.
Siam : b) No orders placed. Don’t know what goods wanted.
Waiting also for arrangemts. at far end for sale.
E.B.
Don’t object to B(a). Tho’ I was pressed to get free rice. (I wd. have
preferred to go for tin). Diff. for me to make volt face at last moment.
Must use tact. Siamese adept at playing off one country v. another. Ready,
however, to p’pone the free rice until 1947. Bird’s latest telegram suggests
Rice Unit shd. take our consumer goods and buy direct. Wd. like to discuss
that with M/Food. Wd. have to be shared with U.S.
H.D.
Agree : if free rice is only p’poned.
G.H.
Serious situation in Ceylon. More must be found, either wheat or rice.
331/3% cut in Ceylon’s demand. Largest on any B. territory.
India.
P.L.
2 m. tons in wheat, rice and millet demanded by Viceroy (in telegram
today) to meet crop and procurement deficits.
Diff. to establish exact figure. Looks as tho’ deficit = 2 m. tons.
This, however, not whole problem. For we are to lose supplies already
promised to us. At Cab. on 14/1. we assumed we shd. get backlog of 1945.
Now mean we shan’t get that. And m’while demand has increased.
Suffered also by losing rice imports for the sake of S.E.A.C. Now M/East
seems likely to cut into us too.
Burma supplies.
Govt. has re-acted violently to suggn. of 400.000 t. of exports. He won’t go
above 55.000 t. And asks for absolute priority for its return if needed in
autumn.
I suggest 25.000 t. with no strings : but priority for return of 30.000 t.
P.M.
Quite impossible in present world situation to promise return.
P.L.
W’out giving some assurance he won’t be able to procure the rice.
Delegation from Govt/India to Ldn. and W.ton.
Support this a) Cdn’t resist hearing them. b) Their approach in W’ton
might be more successful.
B.S.
Backlog.
We had to discuss on basis of current supplies.
484
Wheat.
Burma.
Delegation.
I got Canada to give you 60.000 t. I’d lost.
Fear of famine is the trouble. But world situation is
v. grave.
Cdn’t give an absolute priority on repayment. No one
cd. guarantee
Favour this.
General feeling:
Press Burma v. hard to cough up for rice.
Delegation to go to London and W’ton.
R.S.C.
Shd. someone go out to deal with Burma and Siam problems.
E.B.
Allocation all v. well but machinery needed. And weekly progress rpt. to
P.M. Battle of Food – may wreck this Govt. P.M. shd. apply B/Atlantic
technique. Long-term allocations will make for inflexibility: shd. be more
room for manoeuvre. With a strong Official Cttee below P.M. run by Cab.
Office.
P.M.
What about C.F.B?
E.B.
Might do better w’out them.
B.S.
Then it wd. be a scramble – with rocketing prices.
P.M. Agreed to form B/Atlantic machinery.
A.B.
Publicity – to world. Use ending of U.N.O. Assembly.
Wicked conspiracy by some newspp.
Shd. look at this v. seriously. Another Cab. Cttee for that.
E.Sh.
Support that. Some time ago Cab. decided as much informn. shd. be given
as possible. Never carried out. Too much is left to Dpl. Ministers w’out coordinated effort.
We aren’t influencing public opinion. M/Inf. going. Is the P.R.O. at No. 10
doing anything. Public will react well to a statement of facts. Need for
central machinery under No. 10 to present the Govt’s case.
In adminn. need for quick changing and moving machines to improvise.
E.B.
Too much talk of G.B. making sacrifices for Europe. Shd. be on basis of
world shortage.
P.M.
Much in this – but was analogy is not exact : for the supplies are beyond
our control.
Agreed : L.P. to look into publicity problems.
B.S.
Anglo U.S. Cttee
a) to increase world acreage.
b) to handle current supplies.
485
Never improvised during war w’out C.F.B.
P.M.
Ventilate in Soc. & Econ. Council of U.N.O.?
E.B.
Nothg. much done w’out Big Fish. I was thinking of raising it at informal
mtg. of 5. With a view to a) above. Then deal with tide-over in better
perspective.
P.M.
If we have to present publicity on basis of world shortage, we can’t do so
while U.N.O. mtg. in Ldn. w’out putting it to them.
N.B.
Agreed.
B.S.
Read out telegram from Washington.
P.M.
(Doesn’t this mean that we must raise our extraction rate? Agreed.
(M/Stage to report what can be done thro’ U.N.O.
“
(Burma : Hasten appointmt. of Commr. Genl. and give him this job.
(Machinery on B/Atl. model will be set up.
(L.P. will grip the publicity campaign.
[Enter Wilmot]
J.B.H.
The “loan” of 112.500 tons. Ask that this be pressed now. Will be used
here for stock. We wd. eat it. Wait untl 1946/7 period.
Our cut is 45%.
B.S.
I will suspend as long as I can.
5.
B.S.
Shipping Requirements for U.K. Food Import Programme.
No assurance tht. my needs up to April can be lifted.
Lost Canad. wheat Dec. wh. managed to transfer to India.
Losing 60.000 t. in Jan. French and Norw. can put their tonnage in posn.
and keep it there. Canada asks why we can’t.
Sugar. M/W.T. want to keep margin. I’m in v. gt. difficulty.
Refrig. Tonn. 400.000 cub. ft. short. Cdn’t lift applies from S. Doms – or
meat and dairy produce from Australia and New Zealand.
Ask tht. food imports be given first priority as for –
wheat, flour, sugar, meat and fats.
Barnes.
You can’t give that w’out full informn.
I have passed such a memo. for circulation to Cab. Wait for that.
P.M.
A.1. priority claims made – and never conceded – throughout the war.
486
I will take this ques at new B.A. Cttee when memo is in.
E.Sh.
Review whole shipping posn. May have to look again at purchase of U.S.
ships. We have seamen and cd. use Poles and Greeks.
Barnes.
M’while, can’t accept Canada’s monthly rule. That shd. be re-opened at
higher level.
H.M.
Cd. P.M. send message to M. King.
P.M.
Willing to do so, if draft provided.
[Exeunt Wilmot, N.B. Hynd. Barnes]
6.
Agricultural Wages.
G.A.I.
Govt. needn’t intervene.
M/L.
cd. as conciliating body.
Suggest we shd. call the 2 sides together on the graduated wage suggn.
Agreed.
P.M.
Deputn. shd go to Agricult. Ministers and M/Labour, not me.
H.M.
Case the other way can be argued. Labour M.P.’s in rural areas = new
developmt. Agric. Ministers = M/L. shd see that group.
487
4th February 1946.
C.M.11 (46).
1.
Civil Aviation.
Deferred until later.
2.
E.B.
Greece.
This is part of R. Med. policy. In CFM Depies R. trying hard for Tripoli
and Eritrea possibly on Ital. Treaty. While anxious for Reg. Def. systems,
attempt by similar pressure of R = decsn. of dipl. war v. B. interests. Threat
to U.K. standards of life and naval security if we lose Med posn. Greece =
now seen as part of attempt to get a ring round M/E.
U.S. attitude not helpful. Leave me alone. Other members of S. Council
are intimidated or feeble.
Concluded tht. I must counter-attack. V. likely to move resoln. callg. on us
to w’draw our troops. I will resist - don’t think it will be carried. But have
bn. considg. wthr. if that defeated, I shd. vol. (if Greece agree) offer to let
a “neutral” go to Greece. Nothg. to hide. Condn. tht. R. prop. ceases.
R. mayn’t like that – precedent for Poland, Hungary etc.
P.M.
Who wd. be a “neutral”? E.B. U.S. or S. American or Norwegian.
R.S.C.
Wd. be a useful precedent.
E.B.
Won’t suggest it until Sec. Council have “cleared” G.B.
E.Sh.
More welcome to adhere to plan of w’drawg. immed. after elections.
General view : in favour of E.B.’s plan.
3.
E.B.
Levant States.
Saw Bidault –said we must both come out of Lebanon as well as Syria.
He fenced. I said let’s start moving out of Syria : and they’ve begun.
Levant States now proposing to put this to U.N.O. because Fr. don’t show
signs of moving and clearly don’t want to leave Lebanon.
Fr. are our support for request for base in Lebanon. Have refused any
secret arrangement v bases.
Dilemma : if I say we’ll go out : neither Fr. nor Levants will like it.
Propose therefore to wait : and say if pressed we will accept decisions of
U.N.O.
i.e. Lev. won’t want us to go out if French don’t.
Fr. will be afraid to be left there alone.
488
4.
E.B.
Egyptian Treaty.
Article by Reuter – P.M. said no comm.. negotns. with G.B. w’out U.S.
Arab says no truth in this – take no notice.
B/T. to note. And I will take it up with Reuters.
Civil aviation – suggd. this be taken with Comm. Treaty. I’ve said can’t
wait for that : go ahead separately. Told E. Amb. so to inform his Govt.
Want to get ahead with Comm. Treaty quickly : get that settled.
A.B.
Early concln. of satisf. Treaties with E. will assist us in resisting R.
pressure in M/East.
E.B.
Need for strong repve. Govt. in E. – so tht. Treaty may have chance of
being ratified and lasting. Some hope tht. more repve. Govt. may be
brought into being – for this purpose. Suggns. to that effect made to King
have bn. well received.
A.B.
Satisfied our Amb. is best instrument.
E.B.
Have agreed he shd. go on for a year. He is good : but has so many
unpleasant things to do durg. war tht., his influence with Palace is not v.
strong. Am considering wthr I can improve posn.
5.
Level of Germany’s Industry – Reparations.
E.B.
Have recd. a formula this morning. Shall try to get this out of the way.
P.M.
Let us have report on that. Cab. decision required.
6.
E.B.
Spain. Constitutional Position.
Have told our Amb. in Lisbon to have nothg. to do with either Don Juan or
Robles.
But am pressing Franco, thro’ Madrid, for an early move.
Diffy. no clear indicn. wthr. Spain wants monarchy or Republican system.
Seems tht. many wd. like Republic if sure they cd. get it w’out civil war.
May now burst fr. w’in. If they go for Republic we needn’t object. If they
prefer Monarchy, other considns. and I wd. have to go to Cab. again.
E.W.
Are our Amb. being neutral? Looks as if we’re backg. Don Juan.
E.B.
I am neutral.
E.W.
Monarchy in Spain has always been tool of re-actionary R.C.’s.
489
E.B.
Am puttg. in memo an agreement tht. we wdn’t nominate any but R.C.’s to
B. Council in Spain.
But warning – can’t do everything at once : must put up with some things
we don’t like.
6.
Foreign Affairs Debate.
H.M.
Debate on F. Affairs. Some supporters will be critical of our attitude.
Cd. E.B. address the Party before the Debate – reduce public criticism.
E.B.
Date? Prefer after U.N.O. delegatns have gone.
H.M.
Will try to hold it back.
[Enter Barnes and Winster]
7.
Civil Aviation.
P.M.
PA explain salient features.
W.
Related to Loan Debate in Congress. Otherwise wd. be reluctant to accept
Agreement – a) against our policy b) puts BOAC at disadvantage c)
Agreement is brittle because attempts to conceal inconsistent policies of
free competition and orderly development.
Not clear tht. Congress will ques the powers.
U.S. operators will be free to saturate the lines. Our only remedies ex- post
facto talks or denunciation of agreemt. Unsatisf.
Re. memo. of H.D. Para 3(a)(i) : all we’ve gained is tht. U.S. agrees to
EATA for one year. Thereafter dependent on U.S. getting fresh powers.
Para 3(a)ii): that review will be ex-post facto , with no U.K. sanction save
renunciation. Agree to x/: but we’ve agreed to escalation to meet it.
Para 3(b), All U.S. have accepted in somethg. v 5th Freed, wh. is valueless
if capacity is saturated by U.S.
B.O.A.C. fear this Agreement.
R.S.C.
Result on 5th Fr. traffic?
W.
U.S. meet us on various points but w’out relatg. it to 3rd Fr. traffic.
R.S.C.
Thro’ traffic N. York/India via Ldn. Does this empower them to carry
Ldn/India traffic.
W.
Yes .
490
H.D. memo para 3(b). Wd. be easier if we had a good agreement.
But if para 3(c) is accepted by Cabinet.
P.M.
But what chance of better agreement?
And what cd. we do on a cut-throat competn.?
W.
x/. We cd. limit their landings.
A.
Para. 14. 50%.
R.S.C.
But U.S. haven’t accepted.
P.M.
But how cd. we do x/. while we have no services running?
Are we in a practical position to do it?
W.
No.
R.S.C.
Failg. this agreemt. with U.S. Govt. we shd. have to make arrangements
with separate cos.
A.B.
But if U.S. can’t get the powers, this is façade anyway.
R.S.C.
No : for we shd. be bound by it because we have the powers to implement.
A.B.
Surely we cd. repudiate when we have aircraft on grd. tht. they haven’t
implemented.
R.S.C.
Yet – by denouncing at 12 mos. notice.
H.D.
I’m concerned qua. Loan. Much concern tht. this will have gt. effect in
favour of the Loan. Press that considn. The Loan is worth more.
But in fact there isn’t this choice. Our Delegation strongly recommend
acceptance – see y/ on p.3. i.e. on civil aviation grounds because they think
we shan’t get anything better. We can have this or nothg.
Nothg. wd. give us worst of both worlds – discontent in U.S. + unlimited
compctn. of Pan American.
Stress 3/ in para 3(d) of his own memo.
E.B.
V. important qua foreign policy.
We’re telling all foreign Govts. not to concede 5th Freedom. They are
nothing because our services aren’t coming along in practice. Points to
urgency of civil aircraft prodn. Can’t hold this much longer –
Ambassadors tell me the Govts won’t wait.
491
Admit diff. to defend this Agreement (w’out Loan argumt). On c. av.
grounds.
We cdn’t carry proposals for internationalisation – tho’ I believe it must
come in end. Out of ques. now because R. views, as expd. by Stalin.
On 5th Freedom. N. Yk. to India. Capacity must be related to thro’ traffic.
R.S.C.
Only a pious hope : no machinery to give effect to it.
E.B.
Nor was there on Confce Bd. for shipping.
On the whole I’ve come to conclusion we can’t get a better agreement.
Effect on Anglo. Am. relns. How long will B. people be content with 2
flights a week?
Does it help to hold situation, even for 2 years? Shd. be able to hold our
own if we can get types into air. But we are behind even 8 months behind
with Tudor II. Hermes = failure. We’ve really nothing to bargain with.
Can’t tie an operational p’mme to a bldg. p’mme unless latter is efficient
enough.
Conclude : sign this.
R.S.C.
This is rotten qua c. aviation. And I wd. prefer arrangements with COS.
But if this is so important qua loans we must concede it. Diffy in whr it
really concedes 5th Freedom and lets U.S. in over next 2 yrs. all over the
world.
P.M.
But it is fact tht. we haven’t the aircraft that makes it impossible to resist.
R.S.C.
Worst feature is “change of gauge” i.e. they can carry passengers in
aircraft other than that in which they were flown in.
P.M. & Others.
W.
That won’t do at all. We can’t agree to that.
Ariel 33. Telegram raised it specifically.
Discussion suspended.
[Enter Hynd.]
8.
Allied Control in Austria.
E.B.
As in memo.
J.B.H.
Want some latitude in negotiation.
P.M.
Clearly.
492
Agreed.
7.
A.
[ Exit Hynd. E.B. Sargent]
(contd.) Civil Aviation.
a) We shall have to explain to Doms. why we accepted it. Not easy. They
will object. It cuts across all our agreements with Doms.
b) Ariel 41 asks U.K. Govt. to be committed to persuade Newf. and
Canada to conclude satisfy. agreements with U.S. – Agreement to be
contingent on that.
We really cdn’t do that. Cdn’t accept it as condn. of the Agreement.
We cd. have informal understandg. we wd. do our best to get them to
agree.
P.L.
India have replied – yes and no.
P.M.
Will be diff. to put across in H/.
R.S.C.
Bad enough to defend Chicago agreement. This is much worse.
P.M.
And if you stress the power to denounce, it will destroy effect qua Loan.
A.B.
Can’t accept the U.K. as advance base for U.S. air services in Europe.
H.D.
Cd. this now be examd. by small Cttee of Ministers?
P.M.
C.A. Cttee. H.D. Plus myself.
A.
Wd. prefer an ad hoc Cttee.
E.Sh.
What will you refer to Cttee.
P.M.
Which agreement. C.A. Cttee can handle this if –
Omit Admy. Add C/Exchequer.
Short summary of points at issue.
Instruct Delegation to hold on and wait. - ? by askg. for clarification on
“change of gauge” (R.S.C.)
493
6th February 1946.
C.M.12(46).
Greece. Proceedings in Security Council.
E.B.
Procdgs. at 5 Council. Stettinus and Chairman’s offer both wd. have met
me. But procedure is awkward. V. motion was unacceptable to me :
deferred (only 1 in favour). Then Eg. Del. motion : wh. included clearance
for G.B. : Chairman asked views. U.S. China. Netherl. Poland. Egypt.
France. Australia + G.B. favoured it.
Braz. and Mexico didn’t speak. V. then said he wd. use his veto – invoked
rule of unanimity between Big Five. Wrangle followed on ques. wthr. this
resoln. was procedure or substance. There is memo. of agreed interpretns. of
rules – by wh. V. is right. Adjourned. Y’day Koo seekg. compromise. But
either in endangering peace or not – see no scope for compromise.
Last night Chairman was, I thought, to have read statement. Text read to
Cab. That wd. have ended it. But, saying nothing to me, he passed it to V.
who said he cdn’t accept it. Then, w’out reading document, he adjourned
“for 5 mins” . He then showed me document, for 1st time. I said “if you
intended to make statement why didn’t you make it”. Lie then asked me to
go to his room. Reluctantly went, with A.C. Then found same posn. again.
Pok had put in draft resoln. wh. I cdn’t accept. Stettinius produced resoln.
wh. differed fr. his statement ¨everyone accepted and left me alone. This
a.m. offered to w’draw : but m’while V. has telegraphed home on that
basis. Read out draft prepd. by Stettinius for Chairman’s statement.
Their idea is tht. you associate with this declns. of 9 nations tht. they regard
our troops as endangering peace. I deferred my opinion pending infn. to
Cab.
This a.m. seen Chairman again – who says Evatt has told him not to use
any formula wh. does not exonerate B. troops. Chairman qua. Australian
will support inclusion of this reference.
That is position up to date – thought I shd. take counsel with Cabinet.
My own opinion – prefer no agreement rather than formula wh. doesn’t
relieve me of imputations made.
If they press Stettinius’ Chairman’s declaration, I shall make declaration.
A.
Meaning – first big issue presented has bn. burked, in spite of majority
view.
E.Sh.
What does E.B. think effect will be of digging our toes in?
E.B.
Anglo- Soviet relations will be inadvertently affected.
494
A.L.
V. knows he can’t carry his motions : will be annoyed with Council :
needn’t affect our relationship.
R.S.C.
Soboliev was spkg. v. lightly about it this a.m.
E.Sh.
We can’t w’draw from our posn.. But what wd. be effect in Greece of
concls.
F.B.
Our prestige will be enhanced if Chairman makes the “Makins” decln. –
because the case is dismissed – in Greece and throughout World.
H.M.
Anything less than Makins formula shdn’t be accepted. Wdn’t matter is
declns. to contrary followed fr. one or two. Case wd. still be ours.
Stettinius formula - evasion of responsibility. Unacceptable to us and bad
for future of S. Council.
F.B.
Can’t veto a Chairman’s statement.
P.M.
Why shdn’t Chairman make a decln. adding tht. Council can’t pass a resoln.
because Sov. exercised veto.
A.B.
We must insist on Chairman’s statement as next best thing to a resolution.
H.D.
Encourage Makins to make his declaration.
A.B.
And if he won’t E.B. shd. make a declaration.
P.M.
And see if Makin will omit final para. inviting those who disagree to say
so.
495
7th February 1946.
C.M.13(46).
1.
Parliament.
P.M.
Shd. C/Exch. Spk. In Food Debate on d. eggs issue?
H.D.
Alloctn. to Dpt. detail is for response Minister w’in his own p.mme. Watch
Oppn. tactics.
Recently d. eggs held up to ridicule. Don’t take in isolation. Remember
how unpopular cuttg. films and tobacco wd. be. How much can we say to
H/C. either as to our dollar posn. or how we manage these things.
P.M.
Is it fact tht. M./F. has had to reduce because of overall allocation?
H.D.
Everyone has. B/T. equally on tobacco.
EEB.
Offl. Cttee – B/Payments – deals with import p’mmes on all dpts. Virtual
agreemt. at offl. level on rept. now on its way to Ministers. 271 out of 500
for food.
P.M.
What was basis for maintaing. films and tobacco and cutting down on
eggs?
H.D.
Gave information – from his brief.
We cd. spring another 6.000 t.
H.M.
If disagreement this wd. have come to Cab. Cttee. M/F. wd. have bn. wise
to bring it up anyway.
H.D.
£16,800.000 films. £35.m. d. eggs. over recent period.
H.M.
We shd. settle Spkers. for Thursday.
[Enter B. Smith]
E.Sh.
Cd these facts be disclosed to Cabinet even if not in public?
A.
Need to tell people about things sooner. Food shows it. Why not do the
same over consequence of not getting the loan. Bias in favour of telling
more.
P.M.
Might stimulate tobacco and film lobbies to support the loan.
D.S.
Bank doesn’t advertise when its going broke. Run on flour now. Wd. have
bn. a run on d. eggs.
A.
I’m not talking of d. eggs. I’m thinkg. of our capacity to buy.
496
T.W.
Get the Debate on the basis of World situation as a whole – don‘t let d.
eggs be a red herring.
P.M.
x/ Let policy be worked out by Ministers and reported to Cabinet on
Monday /x.
P.L.
Statement on India?
P.M.
No need to decide yet.
[Exit W.W. Enter: Barnes. G.T &Wilmot]
2.
H.M.
Man Power and Economic Survey.
Complts. to Steering Cttee. includg. Econ. Section.
This is a survey not a set of recommns. for executive actions.
Based on informn. derived fr. economic controls. New sources will have to
be substituted. Now being broken into quarters and projected in 1947 –
also provisional picture for 1950.
Man power and income deficit of 1.3m. men and nearly £500m. Clear we
cdn’t have maintd. defence at level requested. Hence redns. in Service
demands. Even so a gap will remain. And redns. are for end year: need to
reach those figures as early as we can in the year.
Need for firm priorities in investment projects.
Distribution trades: need to prevent their being over-manned.
Considered publn. in due course they shd. But a) this is experimental and b)
we can’t say what our planning machinery is. Therefore am proposing
shorter statement as in para. 11.
R.S.C.
P.26 clothing : assumes 70 coupons at end 1946. In fact it will be much
less.
Will report on that to Cabinet.
E.B.
Man Power Rpt. Main trouble : nos. on munitions. Believe even 650.000 is
too high. Now propose (on my own) further redn. to 500.000 – in the light
of CP. 40. Wd. affect civil aircraft : i.e. wd. enable men to be put on their
prodn. and save dollars. This redn. wd. mean Services wd. have to go w’out
new supplies for a year or two. But that may be a positive advant. in
enabling them to get more up to date equipment later.
J.W.
Existg. p’mmes. based on Def. Cttee decisions. Redn. then will reduce
labour force. We must maintain minimum for war potential – and we are
down to that now on tanks and a.a. guns. Swing over to c. aviation is now
moving fast.
Tudor II produced in record time even if delayed on time-table.
497
P.M.
I’ve told Service Dpts. to rely on stocks : make do with what they have.
R.S.C.
Use surpluses and relieve pressure on that.
J.J.L.
Bear in mind our respons. for clothing and equipment. Allies now with us.
P.M.
Which Allies?
J.J.L.
Poles.
P.M.
What others – give me a report.
J.J.L.
Greeks. P.M. But on surpluses surely.
Agreed aim : live on surpluses, save necessary research development.
H.D.
Supported reduced target of 500.000. Leave Service & Supply Dpts. to
work out how they share it.
G.A.I.
Distribution – covers more than shop assistants. Also deliveries. Easement
for housewives. B.S. Supported this. But control of margins is reliable
R.S.C.
We must have some limit. Studying how. May be only thro’ margins.
P.O. War. 585.000 demanded. Repatriatg. 145.000. 283.000 being brought
in (para.7(iv)) from Germany to U.S.A.
Contacts with T.U’s v emplt. of p.o.w. Some Unions which are takg.
p.o.w. are thinkg. of pressure on other Unions to do same.
Scheme for enablg. men to go temporarily to other areas fr. devl. areas,
with liberty to return when more emplt. in home areas.
Large scale check (200 firms) on munitions industries returns. Not satisfy.
tht. figures are reliable.
P.M.
Appeal to women and older men.
E.Sh.
Men over 65 are being sacked from mines. There is also no discipline in
the pits – ca’canny. May be better to do away with E. W. Order while
retaing. guaranteed work.
How will you control distribn. of man power?
How many engaged in non-essential services – sports, cinemas?
T.W.
Problem = inducements, so long as man power is short in more attractive
occupns.
498
E.Sh.
P.A.Y.E. is working ill – losing last day of week – pays a man to go off for
4 wks. after working 40. Am puttg. somethg. up to C/Exch. on this.
G.T.
Take case of geograph. aspect of appeal to women.
P.M.
Publicity : need for organised plan. Let H.M. be responsible, with F.
Williams in charge of official group. Start with statement by me in H/C.
Hinges largely on Service strengths wh. can’t be disclosed in advance of
Def. White Paper.
H.M.
Will put up my para. 11. draft statement next week.
P.M.
Shd. be a general b’cast.
Conferences addd. by Ministers.
G.A.I.
Arrangements in hand for conferences with labour : employers.
P.M.
Fix that up with H.M. No unilateral action by M/Labour.
E.B.
Conference with T. H. Executives must be private – no Press.
Agreed : H.M. to co-ordinate.
P.M.
Control of investment projects.
H.M.
x/ Need for economy in Govt. Depts. esp. on economic controls.
P.M.
Need for proper priorities – eg. in roads.
H.D.
Look at it Regionally : for man power posn. varies. Accept that principle.
P.M.
Steering Cttee to devise machinery for effecting control.
R.S.C.
Re x/ we can’t administer w’out eg typists, which we haven’t got now.
E.B.
How long can you go on freezing Civil Servants?
H.D.
Must do so for some months.
E.B.
Typists’ wage in C. Service is much too low. I had to pay 25/= a wk. to
supplement C. Serv. wages of typists transferred from Union. Agreed :
C/Exch. to enquire.
E.B.
Civil Service : Bad accommodation : Bad welfare works no amenities : no
study of lighting : canteens are a disgrace. Can’t run Socialism w’out
proper staff. When D.R. 58AA goes, there be a rush out. And Orders aren’t
a substitute for our doing the right thing. Get C. Serv. listed as an
unattractive occupation – and turn on the Factory Insprs. Make a 5 year
Plan.
499
H.D.
Cd. we have Cttee – M/L. and M/W. to help?
P.M.
Yes.
P.M.
Your para. 11 statement. How can you do it while loan is outstanding.
H.M.
Difficult – not impossible. R.S.C. Can base it on need even if we get Loan.
Bad enough even then. P.M. How? In H/Commons? H.M. Yes : in H/C.
and b’cast.
P.M. Approach Opposn. to see if they’ll play. Let H.M. do that.
E.Sh.
Technical enquiry into increased efficiency in industry. We believe in
mines we may in 10 years make do with 100.000 less man power.
R.S.C.
15 workg. parties will produce somethg. Trying to run “efficiency service”
from B/T. want to expand that.
J.W.
Agreed Nat. Council for Motor Industry – techn. efficiency will be part of
that function. Same procedure will be followed in other parts of
engineering industry.
P.M.
Must be done industry by industry. But cd. be applied to food – transport.
G.T.
Doing it in building – bit by bit.
3.
R.S.C.
Timber for Housing.
Loss of pre-war sources, Russia and Finland. M’while Sweden important
source of supply. Realise little chance of U.K. coal. There is, however,
some chance from U.S. that wd. mean no bilateral deal and timber wd. go
into a pool. E.C.O. Timber sub. Cttee of E.E.C.E. meeting together to
work out a scheme to get it for someone. Can’t do more than hope will get
some.
Supply fr. Germany. It’s filled : problem transpt. Will get it eventually :
difficult.
Not much before May ’46. Linanton’s view.
Yugoslavia (in reply to E.B.) – team coming over to discuss.
E.B.
See Karddj. while he is here : looks more co-operation. Monty Meyer wd.
be willing to build saw mills there. Wd. like U.K. in there on trade basis.
R.S.C.
Other chance : Roumania. Timber there filled and ready for Swiss : we’re
trying to buy it from him. U.S. have brought large part of the R. business
in timber.
500
We may just squeeze home if Sweden and Germany provide what we want
in 2nd half ’46.
Best bet : some from Soviet. Have seen Soboliev Vyskinsky. Must,
however, get war trading accounts cleared up first. Told Soboliev I wd. go
to Moscow if they really want a settlement : then we cd. get some timber.
D.S.
Trade wd. open up some food exports from these countries.
G.T.
Suggest more negotns. on use/timber until we are sure of supplies.
J.W.
Worried about suggn. of using home gr. timber to bridge the gap. Wd.
prefer to see German used. More from Germany.
P.M.
See Para. 4(a) of R.S.C. memo and what R.S.C. has said this a.m.
T.W.
Ag. Ministers suspect Germany has never bn. asked for timber.
R.S.C.
Reason is C. Commn. had so much to do tht. this cdn’t be organised earlier.
It’s being speeded up now.
H.D.
Think C.C. might have done better if they’d thought as much about exports
to us as imports of food.
R.S.C.
No. C.C. lack of man power.
[Exit G.T. Enter Civil Lord]
501