Oly Givon: Reel #134 TRT: 30:46
Interviewer: From people we talked to, we haven’t talked to anybody else in great
length about the Palmach and how you got from the Palmach into the Brigade. And then
once you were in the Brigade, that conflict between being an officer in the brigade and an
officer in the British Army and the Haganah.
Givon: You ask I will try to answer.
Interviewer: Good. You were here in Palestine and the war was going on and you had
joined the Palmach. Tell us how you got to be part of the Palmach. What happened?
Givon: It was very easy. I was a member in the kibbutz. And every kibbutz sent some
people to the Palmach. It was accepted that every kibbutz will send few of them, they
will not be a part of the Palmach, because it was a part of the Haganah, the active army of
the Haganah. And I was a corporal in the in the Haganah and they believed that I am the
right man; it was accepted by the kibbutz. The day they chose who is going to the
Palmach. Not, I couldn't say I would like to be part of the Palmach. The kibbutz made
the decision and said, okay, Oly will go to the Palmach. Because he was trained in the
Haganah and had the thirst to step in to the education of the Haganah. And then they
send me to the Palmach. And in the Palmach I was the first commander of a women
group. I trained women. That, so I started the Palmach. And the women in the Palmach
they were from, let's say seventeen on until thirty, forty. And very interesting for me, to
train uh really girls or women, even mothers were between them. And uh later on came
up the the idea to build up a German squad. People, they were born in Germany or
Austria, they speaks very fluently German, and uh because of the dangers of Rommel in
Egypt start up and we have to protect ourselves. And how we can protect a small
community like we were at that time, four hundred thousand Jews in Palestine, so the
active army was in different kind of groups. We had the German squad, and then an
Arab squad. And uh we have people they were training to handle ships and even to be uh
pilots on on without uh all this was trained in the Palmach. So the basic of an active
army was the Palmach. And we go to other kibbutzim, and in the kibbutz you have to
make your living that you have half a day training and half a day you work in the kibbutz.
And that they gave us for this half a day to, to stay there, to be there, and like we built up
our place in the Mishmor ha’Emek, in the hill of Mishmor ha’Emek. In the forest of
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Mishmor ha’Emek. Because it was something separated, not accepted by other people.
Because we were a secret unit.
Interviewer: Did the British know about the Palmach?
Givon: I think, sure they know, but they didn't uh they tried to find out how and what
will be the active of the Palmach. Let's say we always, you could, could see who is in the
Palmach. Because we had shorts, very shorts. We were very strong everybody, and you
could you couldn't have select only people you could fight in the Palmach. It was a
special type of of youngers.
Interviewer: How did you go from the Palmach into British Army? What was that
transition? What took place?
Givon: Let's start not too long to the story. So we'll build up the German squad. The
German squad should, the plan was that we should act behind the lines if the Germans
will came through to Palestine. And that was the plan of the Karmel. The Karmel here
in the hills of Haifa, that should be like Masada. Masada, that's the last point where the
Jews fight together against the Arabs. And we should, the German squad, we planned, to
act in the Negev at the moment that they came in, as Germans. And that was our basic
training. And to be trained in the Palmach that's not as a soldier. You have to know
everything, to know the country, you have to know how to to to a handle weapon. Which
kind of weapon. All kind of weapon. Because at that time, we have all kinds of
weapons. And then you have to destroy, how you make all the, how can you destroy
roads, how can you destroy behind the lines, everything. And between that, then later on,
we, I became a commander of the people they were born in the other European countries.
That's a from Chechi, from all this, and I was the commander of Hannah Senesh, uh
Haviva Reich, and all those. And that will be again a different kind of organization.
That they, Balkanazim from Balkan. And basically I was planned to be, to go with them
again to Europe or by parachute, or by under under underwater boat, to Yugoslavia. And
I trained them. And then came up the plan that maybe we will be a part of the Jewish
Brigade. This was in '43, '44. In '44, uh, the uh Sharett, Moshe Sharett was the
administer in the building government. He believed that we can be very useful uh part of
the Brigade, of the Jewish Brigade. Again, that's German squad. To walk into fight in
Europe behind the lines but that the British they didn't accept it so easy. Because how
again what do you mean you will fight between the lines, and so on, and so on, were the
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lot of discussions with the British. Because all the British organizations in Palestine
would like that, that the CID, was splitted in different kind of groups. And a part of the
CID they were very interested to have such people that we were. That they could walk
together, fight together, and we could help them in Europe, and everywhere. So basically
the planning let’s say all our parachutists, they go to Europe. They go basically not
alone. They have to be able to go together with one of the British officers. Because you
act in the name of the British Army. You didn’t act alone, not that it wasn’t like that.
And I was very much, often in connection with the engineer service, the British engineer
service. And we planned, we planned a lot of plans. Where we will send people, how we
will send people and just so very open, and we talk like friends. Because we have the
same target. And uh then we uh they accepted into the Bri...the German squad will be
part of the Jewish Brigade, and that they sent us for training to Egypt. We were so well
trained; with the British system you are being trained. So we start from the beginning on,
we make it very quick. But even it takes time. And the war was very close to the end.
And from the Brigade gro....ah, the Brigade group they ask ask come as soon as possible.
And then we came to Italy. It was four days before the end of the war.
Interviewer: Now you are in Italy, what rank did you have in the Brigade?
Givon: I was a sergeant. But basically they began, the British, they accepted because I
was we were two commanders of the German squad. Yehuda Briger, and uh I. And
basically we should became the rank of captain, from the first moment on. But again, the
discussion, how you can, you didn't uh go through the officer school and uh, we were
officers in the Haganah, but not in the British Army. So we said okay, let's you, you have
the rank of, you will be a sergeant, in the beginning.
Interviewer: So now you are a sergeant in the British army and you are an officer in the
Haganah and the war is over and the Haganah starts directing activities arms theft and
such. How did you feel about being an officer in the British service? What there a
conflict in your mind? Did that trouble you? Tell me.
Givon: It was very easy. We, I always in the British Army have feeled myself an Israeli
who was sent to the Brigade to help to finish the war and then later after the war was over
to find children, to find weapons, to steal weapons, to uh, to uh collect the Jews left over,
to go to the camps to see what happened there. And that was our target. And again, we
were, we have uniform, but most of our time we spent for the Jewish activities.
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Interviewer: Was that your thinking from the first day you landed in Italy?
Givon: Yes. The first day, it was four days before the end of the war. We prepare our
self, I was, I was, we had a meeting in the HQ of the Brigade group, and we planned how
we will act in Italy. When we will go there and so on and so on. Because they didn't
know how we act. We had to get uniforms, German uniforms, we had to get German
weapons. Because here we had it, in Palestine at that time. Because we always were by
our training, because we get orders in German. We teach ourselves, even when we are at
night somebody will wake you up, did you answer in German? Not in Hebrew. And it
was not easy. I was only, I came to Israel to Palestine, '39. It was four four three years
after that. But I start being an Israeli. My mother language became Hebrew. And the
moment that you had to start to think in German, to sleep in German, and all this you had
to do in German. And we wake our people up at night and say, “hello”. And if you
answer in Hebrew, it was a terrible thing. Because we trained ourselves so much to be
German again. But between as we talk in the in the forest that we were staying, our camp
a small camp, we talk German. But you have to work in the kibbutz. So you have to talk
in the camp German, and you came to the kibbutz you talk Hebrew. A conflict
unbelievable, this was so hard for us. You go home, the girlfriend, how you talk with
her. German? Hebrew. Or with my brother, I talk Hebrew. And then you came back,
again you had the German uniform, you put on the German uniform and you talk
German.
Interviewer: And in Italy now, the war in over. The war is now over. Did orders start
coming down to you on what to do next? What happened after the war was over?
Givon: I was a part of the Jewish Brigade, so now the war is over. We move from Italy
to Belgium to Holland, to Austria in the beginning. On the border between Italy and
Austria. And uh we didn't have orders, but everywhere who was a part of the Haganah he
looked forward to find Jews and so. Then I was looking to what happened to all the
Nazis. This were connected not with the Brigade Haganah organization, because Shlomo
Shamir was the commander of the Haganah in the Brigade. But I got orders from the
over Shlomo Shamir that we had to look where are the the Nazis, where they are now.
And what will happen.
Interviewer: Who gave you those orders?
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Givon: It was uh the command of the Haganah in Europe. I was connected with it. And
then find that the group of the Abba Kovner. The, again the plan to react all what
happened. The talk, they had plans to revenge six million of Germans and so on. And I
was the connection then between the Abba Kovner group and uh and the Haganah. And
we started to plan what to do, and then I select all the we are looking for where to see
where are the German high officers and the German Nazis, the real Nazis, SS, there were
commanders of camps. It was not easy to find them. And uh we found some of them,
and then we act against them.
Interviewer: Was there conflict within the brigade? With you going out and doing that
and Shlomo Shamir…
Givon: It was not a conflict, but again it was some special, uh, they knew that we are
busy. But they didn't know what we are doing. In the Brigade. They knew that we are
busy, that we have something to do. But it was not known in the Brigade. And we act in
very small uh groups, was a secret. Because basically we act against the British law, the
British you are a British soldier you have to have, you get commands from the British.
And we were such little by side.
Interviewer: How long did this go on? How long did the revenge activities take place?
Givon: Not too much. Not too much, because uh look all this revenge it was something
that I believe now in that time I believe that we were looking forward to find the highest
commanders of the camps, and the Nazis. Not against everyone. Not quantity, quality.
We were looking forward to find those that are really killed Jews. And it takes time, a
few months, a few months. And you have to have a every group of them, Zarro act
different than I act. And uh others act different, and the group of Abba Kovner act
different. But this was the organization of the Haganah. It was not in the hand of the
Brigade anymore.
Interviewer: Oly, tell Chuck a little how you found, how you went about looking for SS
officers. How, actually what you did to make that happen. You told us you looked at the
higher ranking, that you weren’t interested in all the Nazis. How did you go about doing
that? What was the technique to identify who were the Nazis you were looking for?
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Givon: It was not easy because we didn't have intelligence service to find out where they
are and who, where they are now at the time. Uh, different kinds of ways, uh, let's say I
take off my my [cut] very nice fellow.
Interviewer: We wanted to talk about how you said it was not easy. How did you go
about identifying?
Givon: So I take off my uniform, and go to the beershtuben, to drink beer together with
the Goyim. Because German was not a problem for me, to talk with them. And I say to
them, okay, I'm an SS officer. I am looking for, how can I run away from here. Who is
connecting people. I am alone, I don't know how. And so I built up my private
intelligence service. I heard from the people oh you are this, go and meet this and this
and this. Then I met him. And uh he start to talk. Where you been? What is your rank?
And so on and so on. And so I find him.
Interviewer: And then what?
Givon: And I was a young, basically I was at that time, let just say '44, '45. In '45 I was
twenty-two years old. And I had done it by myself, alone. If I think now about it it's
fantastic, how you act, and think you don't have an organization. You don't have
somebody who helps you. You're alone. But if you believe in something, you can do it.
And so I found them. And then in the moment that I found them, I had the connection, I
say okay go over there, there he is now, in the hill, and there and this and this house, and
this uh, you will meet him... so I go there. And then I start to act with him, and I said,
okay, we are now alone. I am a Jew. You act against the Jews. You kill Jews. And I
start to talk with them. And did take some sometimes it takes a one or two hours. At the
moment that I was a hundred percent sure that he, that he the man who kill Jews, then I
took him out. And I said, in the name of the nation of the Jews, I kill you. I killed him.
But is it in the name, don't forget it's a I must say for me, it's not that it's not easy, how I
came to that point. Is what wasn't a private uh revenge. I act in the name of the Jewish
nation. And this arranged.
Interviewer: Did you think about your own parents when you were doing?
Givon: No, no. I’ve done it after I have seen what happened in the camps. And uh, I've
done it. It was not a problem for me. I was so sure that I do the right thing, what I have
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to do, that uh it was not a problem put on an a gun and it's nothing. The most important
for me was the conversation. To be sure that he was one of the Jewish killers, and had
the highest position. And then I done it.
Interviewer: Did the British ever aware of any of this? Did you know… did the British
question you about any of this?
Givon: Me, never. But they knew about it, and they were looking forward to find us.
Because they were against. The same what happened with the group of Abba Kovner.
That they put on poison on bread in SS camp. 35 thousand SS officers. And they they
destroy the action of that in the the beginning. So we were in danger more of the
Germans, of from more of the British. That they could kept us. And we act very so that
the reason why why it was not in the hand of the Brigade group. Because Brigade, let's
say Shlomo Shamir was the commander of the third uh group of the Brigade. Who gave
orders, but he was an officer and he had to split himself between what he has to do as the
Haganah commander or a British commander. So it was much easier not to be in the
hand of Shlomo Shamir or others, other officers they were who had some fight against,
had some troubles some officers in the Brigade Group. That, I said tomorrow, I'm not
here, I'm busy. What you are busy. You take pass? You have to take a pass. I said, “I
don't need your pass”. And because we act we were hundred percent sure that what we
are doing is what we have to do.
Interviewer: How many, how many were involved? How many of the Brigade people
were involved in what you were doing?
Givon: What I know, none. At that time I was only uh I knew only about me, about
myself. I didn't know about others. But as I now know, there were some five or six
small groups that act against in the revenge. Because it was not easy, you have to....
every group was different. Let’s say Zarro, Zarro act different than me. He just found
somebody who was an SS officer he shot him down. That was it. I act more let's say as a
German squad as a I was trained. I could say I am a general in the German army.
Because I was trained for that. I could say this unit and this unit and this unit, I could
talk with them what happened in in with the German. It's different, from one side it was
not so easy, but on the other side it was easier for me, to find out. Because I could say,
“I'm one of you” [German], I'm not a Nazi, but I'm a high officer in the German army.
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Interviewer: Tell me about, were you involved at all in the Arms thefts? I know Zarro
was, did you?
Givon: Yes. Because we were in Belgium. I have a story, we find out, we were a, we
had a the German squad, had to, to in the in the port of uh Antwerp, uh and we were
there, and always we were looking what uh what is here, what is there, and so on because
we need food for the Jews, they are running away. And we need uh all kinds of things
for those organizations. Then I found out that in in one of the stores are for snipers, uh,
weapon for snipers. Rifles for snipers. And we walked four nights, I get from one of the
Jews in in Antwerp, a metal was like the heavy of the rifle. And every sniper rifle is in a
spacious box, you know, done, like it should be done. So at night we took out the sniper
rifle, put on the iron stick and closed very carefully the box and maybe it was sent back
to the Brit, to Brit, to Britain, as then they opened it and find out it's no, not anymore.
And we took the I think some seventy or eighty rifles. And so that was one of the
limitations.
Interviewer: How did all of this equipment get back?
[End of R. 134.]
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