Issue 4 - I/ 2009
December - Special Edition: Interview with Jihan El-Tahri
JOINT M
A
G
- - Special Edition - -
frica
Full text of the interview
with Jihan El-Tahri
ermany
Dennis Kumetat: Your focus has so far been mostly on Middle Eastern and North African issues. What
brought about this shift to sub-Saharan Africa?
Jihan E-Tahri: I guess one of my main areas of interests in my work is: conflict. I simply believe that if
people understand the origins and the roots of a conflict and manage to see both sides of the story then it
becomes more difficult to hate “the other”. It also becomes clearer where solutions to start resolving this
conflict can be found or at least searched for. I guess this is why I did the “The House of Saoud”
(BBC/Arte/ WGBH), I needed to get to a deeper understanding and not simply dismiss 9/11 as a bunch of
fanatic moslems going on the rampage...
I guess I can say the same for the six hour series I worked on called “Israel and the Arabs: the 50 years
war” (BBC/ARTE/WGBH) and after writing the accompanying book (Penguin), I just felt drained and that
any input regarding this conflict will simply never change or add understanding to the preconceived
positions of people on this specific topic. So, I moved on to an area that is also of personal interest to me:
Africa. I am an African and the destiny of my continent is of utmost importance to me. African conflicts
are often dismissed as “tribal” or misunderstood at best. This really angers me. Besides, I truly believe
that Africa – abused and misused as it is – is at the heart of the World Order. It was a terrain of Cold War
conflict (over influence and resources) and it remains so today. So, understanding the dynamics at work in
Africa seems vital to me.
My first film on Sub-Saharan Africa was: The Tragedy of the Great Lakes (Canal+). It was a film about the
regional alliances that ousted President Mobutu and brought Kabila to power. It looked at that moment of
hope (1996 to 1998) and unity that promised to end conflict in that region. But, that hope was rapidly
thwarted. I try to highlight the reasons why this region was once more plunged into war. The Congo (DRC)
has a special place in my heart and I agree with Frantz Fanon when he wrote that: “Africa is shaped like a
gun, and Congo is the trigger. If that explosive trigger bursts, it’s the whole Africa that will explode”
Ironically, I had left the Arabs and the Israeli’s behind feeling that they will kill each other until the end of
time because the bitterness just simply runs too deep. I ended up with the Hutu’s and the Tutsis and the
basics felt all too familiar, if not almost identical to the Arab and Israeli bitterness.
I would also like to add that another main area of interest in my work is: Decolonisation and Liberation
Movements. I find it fascinating (and distressing) how these amazing visionaries of the 1950’s /60’s
Liberation leaders (Lumumba, Cabral, Neto, Tambo even Arafat etc…) struggled against the mammoth
Colonial Empires and once in power, things just seemed to fall apart. This is something I personally need
to understand. That is partly why I did : “ Cuba: An African Odyssey” (Arte/ BBC/ ITVS) and I guess in
some way “Behind the Rainbow” (Arte/ ITVS/SABC) is the extension of this reflection.
Dennis Kumetat: Your film touches on sensitive
issues within the South African political elite.
How were you able to get so many high-level
interviewees? What was their motivation to talk
to you?
Jihan E-Tahri: I started working on “Behind the
Rainbow” in 2004, just after Thabo Mbeki’s
Presidential victory for a second term. He had
then chosen Jacob Zuma, again, as his Deputy
President. So, when I first approached Zuma
asking him to participate in a film looking at the
transformation of a Liberation Movement to a
ruling Party, he was quite willing. At the time, he
had not yet been accused of anything…at least
not publically. I also did research interviews with
practically all the participants in the film. At the
time they were all speaking quite freely….the
atmosphere of Paranoia had not yet set in.
Jihan El-Tahri (born in Beirut, Lebanon) is a writer,
director and producer of documentary films. In 1984, she
received her BA in Political Science, and in 1986 her MA
in Political Science from the American University in Cairo.
She worked as a news correspondent with U.S. News and
World Report and Reuters, TV researcher, and associate
producer in Tunisia, Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Algeria, and
Egypt between 1984 to 1990. As a correspondent, ElTahri covered politics in the Middle East.
In
1990,
El-Tahri
started
directing
and
producing
documentaries for French television, and for the BBC
since 1995. In 1992 she filmed Osama bin Laden's
training camps in Sudan. Her documentary on the House
of Saud, appeared on the BBC in 2004 and on PBS in
2005. Jihan's most recent documentary, 'Behind the
Rainbow', in which she documents the post-Apartheid
developments within South Africa's ANC, was screened
during the 53rd BFI London Film Festival in 2009.
However, by early 2006, events were moving fast and were very confusing. I was based in Paris and did
regular trips down to South Africa but it soon became clear that to get any understanding of the
increasingly opaque situation and events I had to move to South Africa in 2007 (Lock, stock and barrel i.e
my children, the Cameraman and eventually the editor).
By this time, NO ONE…was talking to me anymore. All the participants would be extremely pleasant, since
I had met them all for several very long in depth interviews, they would give me indications “off the
record” but none accepted to be on camera anymore!!! I spent 7 months in South Africa going with my
German Cameraman Frank Lehmann to appointments that were canceled when we arrived at location!!!
You can imagine what that does to a film’s budget, let alone what it does to our morale…
In any case, the breakthrough came just before the National conference at Polowane. Joel Netshitenzhe,
one of Thabo Mbeki’s closest confidants’, finally opened the floodgates by stating in the newspapers that
there were deep divisions at the top of the ANC and between Mbeki and Zuma. He basically said the
forbidden words : the ANC was divided into “two camps”. He had burst the bubble.
Everyone knew that there were problems at the top but for years none of the ANC cadres dared to be the
one who spilt the beans. They are extremely disciplined cadres and finally the bottled up frustration was
let loose. So, they started speaking to me on Camera…
Having said the above, I think each individual has his own interest in mind when he speaks on camera –
not just the ANC – my job is to understand where each is coming from and what their vested interest is
and try to not allow it to interfere with my story.
I guess there are three other reasons why they speak slightly more freely in this case: 1. Because they
knew that I knew the history in detail and had followed every nitty gritty of events, I knew the chronology
of events as well as they did, so what was on camera was more a conversation rather than a classic
interview. 2. I compile biographies of each of my participants and they know that I know their history in
detail so I think they realize that I know where each one is coming from. 3. Each interview is between 3 to
5 hours long…the posturing usually happens in the first half hour and the more in depth conversation
follows.
That of course does not stop each one of them putting his own spin on events, but they cannot oblige me
to use that in my film…
Dennis Kumetat: In your interviews with these resistance fighters who turned into statesmen, what did
you feel has influenced their characters more: the time of armed resistance or the 2 decades of politics?
Were these personalities really able to make this step from the one realm to the other?
Jihan E-Tahri: Its difficult to separate or rather disentangle which aspect of their characters was more
marked by the years of resistance or the 2 decades of politics. But in general, the years of resistance has
left a deep imprint on most of those I met. I believe it is difficult to just shift gears as far as attitudes are
concerned. For example, secrecy and distrust are almost a trademark when people spend their adult life
working in an underground organization, accordingly, it takes a lot of time to build trust. Luckily, I have
been going to South Africa for years and a few of the participants I had met socially. But still, once I
stated that I was making a film, the rapport changed again and I had to build a relationship almost from
scratch. That is why time is of crucial importance to this kind of work.
But, on the other hand, the 2 decades in power has also altered the character
of most ANC cadres. Power and money have a particular effect that I will not
venture here to analyze. I will add though, that many Liberation movements
and the ANC in particular paid attention, early on, to send some of their star
recruits to universities all over the world. Thabo Mbeki studied in England
before he returned to ANC headquarters in Zambia. But once back, he like
"2 decades in
power...have
altered the
character of most
ANC cadres"
everyone else had to work with the secrecy that is an important factor for survival. That is what helped
them in the phase of secret negotiations with the Apartheid government (which Mbeki led). The art of
negotiation and alliance building is also very present in most of the characters, but I’m not sure if that is a
throw back from the years of struggle or a skill aquired in the lead up to taking power.
However, I would add on to your question a reflection that started haunting me during the course of this
film: Does leadership within a liberation movement equip those leaders to lead a
institutions/governments/ countries? I am not certain…. And here I am not talking just about the ANC, I
am talking about all these liberation movements that won independence and thus found themselves
propelled to government top jobs. Nothing in their past experience builds a foundation for such a
transition, decades in the underground or as “revolutionaries” provides a different set of skills. Mobilizing
the people and oratory skills are quite developed with most leaders of former liberation movements but
transparency does not come naturally. This is not a critique it is simply an assessment. In the case of
South Africa, I think they were more aware of this impediment than other countries on the continent. As a
result there was quite a drive to recruit technocrats into the government. But, the technocrats do not have
the political vision that the old time political leaders wanted to implement. That created a sort of divide
especially where economic policies are concerned. I guess, time and the advent of a second generation
will show how this fracture will develop.
Dennis Kumetat: “Behind the Rainbow” mostly portrays the old guard of South Africa’s politicians who are
legitimized through their active, risk-taking role under the apartheid regime. How does the upcoming new
political elite - which is simply too young to have taken an active part in these processes - establish its
popularity and claims to leadership today?
Jihan E-Tahri: I must say that for the moment, every political tendency taps its “legitimacy” somehow
from the struggle days. Even the opposition leader Helen Zille, who is the Mayor of Cape Town and the
leader of the predominately white Democratic Party, constantly reminds the public of her role as a social
worker and journalist who resisted Apartheid. There are approximately 136 political parties in South Africa
today and none, that I know of, avoid references to their role in the struggle in one form or the other.
Indeed, at the launch of COPE, the party lead by Mosiua (Terror) Lekota and Sam Shilowa which split from
the ANC last year all the speeches were about the role of the founders in the struggle against Apartheid.
Ironically, South Africa during the Apartheid days had a huge number of politicized civil organizations
(350) that could have played a role today. But, these civil organizations have faded away. Most young
activists who do not have struggle credentials tend to join the labour unions like COSATU which is a very
powerful political force, but not a political party as such…at least not yet. The dissatisfaction over service
delivery of basic needs is a growing rallying point, but again those militants join COATSU rather than
create their own formation, which is obviously a costly endeavor.
The only other possible access point to politics without struggle credentials for the young today is through
Black Economic Empowerment (BEE). The role of young wealthy and successful entrepreneurs is becoming
more prominent and maybe with time they will start wanting to marry their financial affluence with
political power and thus propose a new alternative…but that is not yet on the cards.
Dennis Kumetat:In your movie you note with concern President
Zuma’s use of the old guerilla songs and highlight an increasing
violence in some speakers’ rhetoric. Do you think a new wave of
political violence could shake the country?
Jihan E-Tahri: In fact, I was trying to explain the opposite! The old
struggle songs are not an indication of increasing violence, merely a
nostalgia aiming to remind people what they had been fighting for
has not been forgotten. When Zuma used “Umshini Wami” the song
that says “give me my machine gun”, it is not an order to pick up
the gun, simply a clever means to tell the people “I have not
changed, I am still the same revolutionary leader at heart and I
have not forgotten you the way Mbeki has.” This struggle song is
one that people could identify with and caught onto immediately.
But, to address your question of political violence – rather than
petty criminal violence – I sincerely doubt that there will be a
violent political explosion. As far as I can tell, there were three very
explosive moments that did threaten to sweep the country into a form of civil war. That was during the
Polokwane conference when the tension was palpable and a single chair thrown into the crowd could have
blown up the whole structure. That didn’t happen. The confrontation happened but in an organized and
non-violent manner. Secondly, when COPE was formed there was deep bitterness and aggression towards
those who split. It was a sense of betrayal that those who split from the ANC had thwarted the internal
democratic ideal by not accepting the decision of the majority regarding the leadership of the party. But
again, at the launch of COPE in Bloemfontein, security was very present and tension running rife and
nothing happened. Finally, if Jacob Zuma, who clearly had the majority had not won at the April 2009
elections undoubtedly there would have been claims of rigging the elections that could have plunged the
country into violence. But, yet again this did not happen. I must say, I felt a certain amount of political
maturity, although the rhetoric was very fiery and at times unacceptably violent, on the ground there was
a clear sense of a democratic process.
Dennis Kumetat:Your film was very well received during the London Film Festival and by European critics
– how were the reactions to your documentary in Africa and South Africa in particular?
Jihan E-Tahri: I will start with the reaction in other African countries the get back to South Africa.
I first showed the film at FESPACO, the largest and most important African film festival held in Burkina
Faso every 2 years. 2009 was the 40th anniversary of FESPACO and most African countries sent
delegations led by their ministers of cultures. My film was shown on the second night of the festival while
most of the delegations were still present and a number of ministers came to the screening. After the film,
at least 3 ministers and a couple of heads of delegations came up to me and said: “ the film is about
South Africa, but I felt you were telling the story of what happened in my country.” I was delighted that
they recognised that what I was trying to do with this film was to demonstrate the PROCESS of how a
liberation movement drifts away from its promises and ideals once it comes to power. The story of rivalry
between two prominent and respected sons of a movement (often close friends) at the time of succession
when the movement is in power is recurrent. The process that follows is not identical but very similar, that
can apply to Algeria in the 60’s, Senegal, Burkina Faso and many other countries on the continent. So, the
short answer is that in most African countries where the film was screened, it was not only the South
African content that was of interest, but also the explanation of the process that most of them could
identify with.
As for South Africa, the film was shown in the cinema and on national TV prior to the April elections. It
solicited quite a bit of debate. Luckily, no one contested the content but most debated the issues that I
had put on the table. The country by then was clearly split into 3 political camps and half of each camp
loved the film and the other half was furious. The Zuma camp for example was divided, half said I had
portrayed him like a populist buffoon who spends his time singing and dancing and does not speak proper
English! They felt that I had listed and highlighted all his political scandals that were best left unearthed.
However, the other half of his camp felt that I had gone into depth and explained the source of problems
and given him a fair forum. The same applies for the Lekota camp and the Thabo camp. Mbeki’s camp
fortunately also recognised that they had not given me enough material to work with since very few of
them had accepted to give me interviews. More important, I was swamped with facebook messages from
the general public, mostly the youth, the main reaction was: finally we get to understand the complicated
story. I think what was most important with this film was to reconstruct what seemed to be erratic events
into a coherent story that allowed – especially the youth – to make heads from tails of the political
upheavals they had been living through, but no longer kept track of the causes and effects.
So, all in all the film was very well received and the issues I wanted to highlight were widely debated
internally. I’m personally very happy with the reaction.
Dennis Kumetat: In the movie you mention the infamous arms deal that – against previous cabinet
decisions – was struck with German/European arms companies. Could you elaborate on this for our
audience? What are the hard facts you could gather in that respect?
Jihan E-Tahri: The arms deal story took up a lot of my time during the research. I finally decided against
going into depth for two reasons: 1. The ins and outs of this story are still not concluded. There is still a
German investigation that has given some elements, but not all. 2. The heart of my film was about the
fact of the arms deal taking place and the door it opened for kickbacks. My issue was not the content of
the arms deal and who exactly took what. I believe that if I want to delve into the content of this, I need
to do a whole separate film that would probably take me another 5 years.
All I can say is the entire political establishment in South Africa was tarnished somehow by this deal. Not
all the names have been sited and some never will. Corruption is not a one sided coin, we talk about the
corrupt politicians who accepted the kickbacks but we forget that they were offered them by the
industrialists who pushed to give the kickbacks to get business. I can also add with conviction that this
particular arms deal is much much bigger than just a South African deal…it has continental implications
that are strategically much more important than what we are being told at the moment. In fact, I will go
further to say that it is lined with to an entire new conception for the military balance of power regionally
and even a bit further east (that is also partly why I decided to abandon the content in this particular film).
Dennis Kumetat: Can you tell us something about your next projects?
Jihan E-Tahri: I am currently researching three different topics before I decide which one I want to make
next. One is about women in resistance movements, which I’m titling “Shoot the women first” (ironically
this title comes from an order supposedly given to the German GSG 9 during their anti-terrorist
campaign). The other is probably a series of portraits about Unsung Heros of our time. Finally, a film
about Frantz Fanon, a thinker and writer who was referred to as the Black Rousseau and was engaged in
the battle for Algerian independence. He died in 1961, but rereading his work like “wretched of the Earth”
made me feel that his work is more relevant today than ever before.
Dennis Kumetat: Jihan, thank you very much for this interview.
Editors: Dennis Kumetat and Linda Poppe
Editorial Team: Julian Bergmann, Mwenda Gatobu, Lerato Tsebe and Benjamin Zasche
Available online: www.bpb.de
Contact: goafrica@bpb.de