May 16 to May 24, 2013 In order to protect the identity of all individuals who have submitted correspondence with regard to the
Sir Isaac Brock PS Grade 7/8 Feasibility Study and in keeping with the Municipal Freedom of
Information and Protection of Privacy Act, all personal information and/or identifiers have been
severed from all recorded communication (i.e. e-mails and letters) prior to distribution. The intent or
message has not been changed.
May 16, 2013
I keep reading how the rotary system at Rickson "prepares" students for high school. My daughter who
graduated from Rickson last year has had the best view on this yet. She has been reading the
comments and actually laughs when reading the rotary system at Rickson prepares them for high
school. I asked her why she disagrees. She stated that the rotary at Rickson is the same rotary she
received at SIB for her junior grades and is completely different than she has at Centennial. In junior
and intermediate grades you travel with a full class of children to all your subjects receiving the same
work as everyone else however in high school you are given an individual time table and travel alone
to your classes. She is right the rotary she received at Rickson did not prepare her any more than the
rotary she received at SIB in her junior grades. Can't argue with her point since she is the one who has
actually experienced it!
May 16, 2013
I wish to express my opinions as the parent of two students who attend Sir Isaac Brock P.S. Specifically,
I wish to address the recent comments and concerns that parents and students have expressed with
regards to the reduction of students at Rickson Ridge.
As I teacher, I have worked at Sir Isaac Brock, and have sent Grade 6 students to Rickson Ridge. I
also currently work in an Intermediate Division – as one of the “specialist teachers” that many Rickson
Ridge parents are concerned of losing in a rotary program. Thus, I feel I have a good perspective of
the issues facing parents and teachers at both schools.
First let me address the argument of losing “specialist teachers” in a rotary program. There is little
research that suggests that an Intermediate Rotary program is educationally better for students. In fact,
most research suggests quite the opposite. We know that the more students are in ‘rotary’, the more
teaching time they lose. We also know that the more students a teacher has, the less they will know
how to address the needs of each student. This is particularly significant for students with special
needs. Having one class all day, allows teachers to adopt more cross-curricular activities, and allows
them to form much richer relationships with their students. As a teacher who now teaches 122 Grade
7/8 Math students, I can confidently say that I knew my students much better
when I had a homeroom of 30 students. I also had the opportunity to create more co-teaching
opportunities with my peers – as there were others teaching the same thing (whereas in an
Intermediate Rotary program there is usually only 1 teacher per subject – so they are teaching on ‘an
island’ to some extent). I enjoy teaching in a rotary program, but cannot honestly argue that it is better
than a homeroom program.
I understand there are many factors that come into play in a decision such as this, so I understand if
SIB is not given a 7/8 program. It is my opinion though, that the downfalls of moving students for 7 &
8 to another school outweighs any negligible benefits that may arise from a rotary program.
1 May 16 to May 24, 2013 Thank you for considering my opinion on this issue. I truly hope that my children can remain at SIB
from Kindergarten to Grade 8.
May 18, 2013
I will not be sending my child by bus to Rickson Ridge.
I would prefer that they could stay at SIB for grades 7/8 but if that does not become available as an
option then I will send the to St Ignacious where they will still be able to walk to school.
If it is feasible to add grades 7 & 8 to SIB then I think it is only fair to the local population to do so.
May 21, 2013
I question the argument that those in the SIB community are "entitled" to have a K to 8 school in their
neighbourhood. It has not been the practice of this board to put K to 8 schools in every
neighbourhood, and this continues to be the case even with new schools. For example, according to
the article in this week's Tribune, the brand new John Galt school will be a K to 8 school, and both
June Ave. and Ottawa Cres. will feed its 7's to the new school. Priory Park continues to feed it's 7's to
Jean Little; Brant's 7's go off to Waverly; Paisley's English 7's go to Willow; Ponsonby, Salem, and
Alma send their 7's to Elora, and so on and so forth. The model of a K to 8 school with one or more
K to 6 feeder schools is prevalent in our board because it works; it preserves the benefits of keeping
multiple divisions together while still encouraging healthy intermediate enrolment for academic, extracurricular, and social purposes. If the Board decides to grant the request of the SIB community to
have a K to 8 school, then what does that say to other K to 6 schools? Will they all have a right to
demand an intermediate program at their own school? And if so, how many thriving intermediate
programs at existing K to 8 schools will be ruined?
May 22, 2013
We are parents of a young student at RR and have another to send to school next year. Our child
currently takes the bus to school because we live on the other side of Gordon from RR.
We are in favour of the rotary system for grades 7 and 8. It may only be because that is what our own
experience was as students growing up in Guelph when we changed schools at grade 6 and moved
to a 7/8 school prior to moving again to a secondary school. We found this beneficial, especially
coming from a very small elementary school with only one grade 6 class. Having specialist teachers
for all subjects can really hone a student's skills and meeting new peers is great preparation for the Big
Jump to secondary school.
We believe there to be many benefits to the rotary system, with specialist educators, particularly with
secondary school being 4 years and children deciding on post-secondary education as early as
16/7yrs.
The social benefits are immense and a rotary system is an excellent transition for secondary school
and beyond.
2 May 16 to May 24, 2013 We feel it makes sense for our childrens' development both socially and in education for these two
communities to CONTINUE to come together for grades 7 and 8 - whether it is at RR or SIB.
It would be unfortunate for the RR community to lose their specialist teachers that the children have
come to know and love however it would be for a greater benefit to them later on
if the rotary system were to continue at SIB. We also understand that through fundraising efforts at RR,
education tools have been purchased for use by some of the specialist teachers.
Regarding the busing issue - it would be nice for everyone to be able to walk to school however,
unfortunately, that just isn't the case. Currently, there is no secondary school in either of our
communities right now so children would be bused to secondary school regardless. And, many
siblings are going to be split up anyway when older siblings move to secondary school.
When we think about the size of other elementary schools that will feed into the same secondary
school and how much larger they are, we feel that to give our children a similar experience and
preparation for secondary school, the rotary system is the way to go - at RR or SIB.
May 22, 2013
Dear Trustees
I am writing this letter in regards to the Sir Isaac Brock Feasibility study.
I am asking for your help in this matter. The future of Sir Isaac Brock Public School is in need of
grades 7/8 to be implemented! I understand there are formulas that are used to determine projected
enrollment for schools.
After seeing our projected numbers at the recent meeting these numbers themselves pointed to the
fact that 7/8 needs to be implemented if Sir Isaac Brock wants to even attempt to fill the classrooms
they currently have.
However these formulated numbers do not have the ability to determine how the people in the
community are feeling and the decisions they are making regarding their childrens education. I would
like to provide you with some insight and factors that are contributing to the decrease in enrollment at
SIB. Three years ago Westminster Woods Public School was completed and approximately half our
students and staff relocated to this new school. At this same time St. Ignatius of Loyola Catholic
School – a k-8 - was also completed. This school is located just down the street from Sir Isaac Brock.
Over the past couple years we have started losing great families to this school. If you are moving into
our neighbourhood and you have no connection to a specific school and you can see both schools
less than a minute of each other where are you going to send your children? The curriculum is the
same and St. Ignatius has extended a warm welcome to anyone that wishes to attend.
Not only are we losing the new families that are moving in but have begun to lose some of our own
SIB families. Some of the families are choosing to switch when their oldest child reaches grade 7 and
others are switching now in anticipation of having to change schools at a later point anyway. Might
3 May 16 to May 24, 2013 as well build up the bonds in a school now while the children are younger. In my own family we have
three children. Our oldest is in grade 9 (she did her k-6 at SIB and 7/8 at Rickson), our second child
is currently in grade 6 (with a BIG decision to make where he wants to attend grade 7 next year) and
our youngest is in grade 2. Having had to do the bussing to Rickson already with one child we are in
support of our sons desire to want to choose St.Ignatius over Rickson next year. How could we not be?
I want to explain to you the reasons why an SIB family would choose a community school over a
school to bus to. Our son has to change schools anyway next year so why not choose a school he is
more familiar with and can walk to. He has several friends already at the school – it is right in our
community and is attended by neighbours and some of his own SIB classmates. Several staff
members live in the community which means he already has trusted adults at the school instead of
needing to create that bond which can take a lot of time for some children in unfamiliar surroundings.
Our son has also been offered jobs by parents on our street to walk their younger children to and
from school next year if he goes to St. Ignatius. This is HUGE to a twelve year old! He is just at the
age of being given responsibility and to have a parent express that they trust him enough to walk their
children is a major thing – and of course there is the money aspect too! Being bussed to Rickson takes
this opportunity of responsibility away from our children right at the age when we want to be showing
our kids we trust them. Do I want to have to switch my children to a different Board and change our
monetary support after all the great years of education our children have received with the Upper
Grand District Board? No we certainly do not but I feel our Board is really giving us no choice. We
are being told we have to switch schools, so as a parent how could I not look at all the options and
choose the option that is BEST for my child? I am certainly not alone in looking at St. Ignatius as a
better option for our children. Unfortunately this is hurting both SIB and Rickson. Both schools will lose
students which will result in the loss of staff which affects the school as a whole. SIB enrollment has
been decreasing in a rapidly growing area. Bottom line is SIB as a K-6 cannot compete with a school
just meters away that is a K-8. Please help us become a school that can offer the same as the other
schools in our community and our Board.
Other points to consider in this study:
-SIB currently has 4 empty classrooms and at this point there will be at least 5 empty classrooms next
year as our kindergarten enrollment is down and we will be at a loss of a kindergarten class. Seems
strange to be spending money to bus children out when there are empty classrooms asking them to
stay!
-SIB was built as a K-8 and opened as a k-6 with the promise to add 7/8 when numbers were
pointing to the right timing. The numbers are certainly saying that now! With it being built as a k-8
and currently empty classrooms there should not be much cost to renovate. Especially when you
consider the bussing cost that will be saved – not to mention the renovations are a one-time
cost where bussing is an annual cost.
-The talk of the rotary system should not be a major consideration in this debate. My own grade 9
daughter said it best. She said the rotary system at Rickson was no different than the one she had at
SIB for her junior grades (also her primary grades to an extent). At SIB our students “rotate” for
French, library and the subjects that their planning time teachers teach (math, science or the arts). At
Rickson and SIB they “rotate” to their next subject as a class not individual as in high school. My
daughter said high school rotation is completely different than her 7/8 rotation and the
4 May 16 to May 24, 2013 rotation she received at Rickson did not prepare her any more than the rotation she received at SIB.
-If SIB and Rickson were to divide their programs and have two smaller programs I certainly disagree
that they would be “mediocre” as has been said.
I have full faith that the staff at SIB (and Rickson) can deliver the 7/8 program and prepare our
children for high school. I have spoken with parents and teachers from schools that have small
intermediate programs (which seems to be the Board norm) and they are more than happy and
satisfied! They DO receive intramurals even if they have smaller programs and are just as
prepared for high school!!
-Having our children remain at their home school for k-8 allows for consistency and comfort for them.
Children need to have a trusted familiar adult to go to!! Some children take time to obtain a comfort
level in a new environment. When they don’t have a comfort level they will tend to be more anxious
and this can lead to less learning potential because the mind is focused on their anxiety. Changing
schools is hard on anxious children. Remaining at their home school allows them to continue to build
their confidence. It also allows for teachers to talk to previous teachers about students if issues arise.
We don’t have this at Rickson where teachers do not know our children and cannot talk to previous
teachers. It puts our children at a disadvantage to the 7/8 children who started their schools years
earlier at Rickson.
-The talk of “specialized” teachers is also highly debated. It has been explained a specialized teacher
teaches one subject and focuses on that. A view point I learned on this from a current 7/8 teacher is
the fact that when you only teach one subject you have approximately 150-180 students to deal
with. It is very difficult to get to know ALL the students and their learning styles. It is harder to see if a
child is struggling when in a bigger setting as opposed to a smaller one especially if it is a quieter
child who is not one to ask for help.
All we are asking at SIB is to be on an equal ground with all the other k-8 schools in this Board. The
Board has shown for many years now that they are going away from k-6 schools and designing k-8.
All the new schools to be built are also being built as k-8. We are asking the Board to fulfill a
promise they made to us 11 years ago and implement 7/8. It is in the best interests of all involved.
Even if the Board decides to not implement 7/8 at SIB and continue to bus our children to Rickson the
7/8 population at Rickson is going to decrease anyway. The more and more parents of SIB are
deciding the walking K-8 St. Ignatius school in our own community is the best choice for our children.
It has become the only way for this to become a win-win and to stop the SIB decrease in population
(and increase in empty classrooms) is to let SIB become a k-8 and on the same level as St. Ignatius.
Rickson and SIB will both produce excellent 7/8 programs on their own! The last point
I want to make is the fact that this is not to be implemented until 2015 which by then all the
construction in our boundary will more than likely be complete and new families will have made their
choice as well more families will have left SIB for the school down the street. Families will not
switch back and make another change for their children. So we will be losing all these families if the
Board chooses to wait that long. Is there any chance if the program is implemented at SIB it could
start earlier?
I thank you for your time and consideration of the above.
May 23, 2013
5 May 16 to May 24, 2013 Thank you for the opportunity to provide input. I believe strongly that, despite what some parents may
believe, this issue is not simply about bussing. For me, it is not about convenience; I have no other
children who need to be walked to school. However, I do believe this issue is about providing a good
education to our children, and I have had nothing but positive experiences with the staff and teachers
at Sir Isaac Brock. My child has been there since Senior Kindergarten and I would like her to stay there
through grade eight because I believe it is an excellent place to learn both about the subjects that are
taught, and about life. Knowing the younger children in the school, I believe there will be excellent
opportunities for her to learn leadership and commitment, unlike in a school where she is uncertain,
unfamiliar with the students, staff, teachers and surroundings. I believe SIB will give her the opportunity
to blossom as an individual at a time in her life when she is coming into her own, a time when people
outside the family have a greater influence.
I also believe that the team at SIB will provide a top-notch education. To suggest that both Rickson
Ridge and SIB will have mediocre educations if the two are split for 7/8 is insulting to not only the
teaching teams at both schools, but to the other smaller schools in the district. What school board is
going to allow a substandard programme to be implemented? I believe both Rickson Ridge and SIB
have the ability to provide excellent programmes under whatever circumstances they find themselves.
As a parent, I have not only my child's education to worry about, but her development into teendom
and then adulthood. I believe that at this stage of life, keeping her at the same school will afford her
opportunities for development that would not be available should she switch schools, particularly to a
school where there is an already established community into which she must try to fit.
I sincerely hope Sir Isaac Brock PS will finally be made into a K-8 school as was originally intended as
I believe it is the best development option for the children in this area.
May 23, 2013
Dear Trustees and Members of The Upper Grand District School Board
I would like to take this opportunity to speak to you and address concerns about the Grade 7/8 SIB
Feasibility Study.
As we chose to move into this community with two young boys 6 years ago, we did so with the idea
that we were choosing a close knit neighbourhood with a community based school within walking
distance of the house we chose to buy. We also understood that while SIB was not currently a K-8
school it soon would be as part of the school boards greater mandate to have all its schools as K-8.
We were also informed of its current status was temporary, as the school was needed quickly for the
south ends quickly growing population, and that there was a standing promise to soon make SIB a K8 as intended and built.
As my boys have entered the SIB program we have had nothing but positive experiences. From the
amazing teachers, who know my children, even before they have had them as students in their
classrooms, to the positive learning environment created by all staff and our principle. We have been
amazed at how our youngest son, in SK this year, knows the Grade 6 students and how they are all
encouraged to play together on the play ground, speak kindly to one another, and know each other
by name. They are his reading buddies, lunch helpers, recess helpers and mentors. This is all thanks
to the strong sense of community, level of trust, and peer partnerships that have been created within
the walls of SIB.
6 May 16 to May 24, 2013 In the past weeks the concerns and issues of the Rickson Ridge parents have been addressed in the
media with several articles in the Guelph Mercury. It has been strongly suggested that the concerns of
SIB parents is one of convenience. I take great offense to this notion! Is it being suggested that I am
putting my convenience and easy of daily life before my children’s education? I certainly hope not!
And if this is the case, how dare they, and the reporter who wrote the article.
We at SIB are very proud and loyal of our school and the community around it that we have all
created. We know our children friends families; many are our friends as well, are involved in our
school and can see the affects of a positive learning environment on our children. This is not to say
that Rickson Ridge does not have these same characteristics, it just does have them for our SIB
children. The teachers at SIB, as I stated earlier, know our children before they ever have them as
students in their classroom. Many studies have shown that when parents are actively involved in the
school environment, students perform better. It is also suggested that students meet, and many times
exceed, educational expectation when learning in a safe comfortable environment. I question with
these two ideas in mind whether Rickson Ridge is the most positive place for my children for Grade 7
and 8. Will my children feel as comfortable at Rickson Ridge as SIB, no. Will my children know the
faculty and in turn will the faculty know them and their learning styles, no. Will my children feel as
sense of community pride when attending Rickson Ridge as they do now at SIB, which has been
nurtured over the past 6 years, no. Will my boys know the other students of the Rickson Ridge, feel
comfortable and secure around them and therefore more eager to participate in class, no.
Another strong point being presented by the Rickson Ridge parents is the concern of losing the rotary
program and therefore somehow hindering the student’s development towards high school. I cannot
speak to Rickson Ridge’s elementary program but I can speak to the one at SIB. As early as JK our
students HAVE rotary. If it is true and I’m not convinced of its merit, that this increases the success of
the transition into high school then our students are prepared! They’re rotary program will only
increase as they get older with the introduction of French, music and other additional subjects.
However, I feel, and strongly suggest that it’s not the rotary program that prepares our students for
high school but rather the quality of the education being received. Success is based on a proven
positive curriculum, being presented by caring and genuine teacher’s in a safe and comfortable
learning environment, SIB has all of this in spades! This is always proven by SIB’s strong test scores!
In closing I’d like to draw the school board a new picture. If the tables were turned how would Rickson
Ridge parents feel. In this scenario I’d like to suggest that Rickson Ridge should never have been build
when it was but rather 20 years earlier when the community around the school and inside its
catchment were growing, not in decline as they are now. Now let’s look at the other schools in the
south end surrounding Rickson Ridge; SIB, Jean Little, Kortright Hills, Westminster Woods, etc. Are any
of these schools under capacity and if so can they, house the population of Rickson Ridge? Let’s take
this one step further, let’s not build the new school on Zaduk Place costing millions of dollars, but
rather utilize the now empty Rickson Ridge property for the purpose of a dedicated south end French
emersion program, long term. Interesting scenario – I think so. Interesting cost savings – I think so.
But is it feasible? Likely not. However, I challenge the parents of students at Rickson Ridge to not feel
shunted and excluded when this initiative is put into motion. When they are having their children
bussed around the city, away from home, away from their friends in some cases, away from f
amily involvement, away from the teachers they know, and the safe and comfortable learning
environment that has been created for their children.
It has been a long standing mandate of the UGDSB to make all its schools K-8, let’s move forward
with that promise. Let’s create two equally amazing programs within the two schools! Lets win back
some of the tax dollars that are being lost to the catholic school board in the south end by parents
choosing to send their children to St. Ignatius, a K-8 school, just a few short steps from the doors of
SIB. Let’s utilize SIB to its full capacity and its intended use at the time of build.
7 May 16 to May 24, 2013 Thank you for your time in reading this letter and I look forward to further discussion and your final
report in June.
May 24, 2013
I’m completely dumbfounded that the board can look at the feasibility of Sir Isaac Brock having a
grade 7/8 while only looking at SIB and Rickson Ridge. Both Westminster Woods and Sir Isaac Brock
public schools are in an area that is still rapidly growing. With Westminster Woods being the only
nearby school with grades 7/8 there will be increasing pressure as the number of students at this
school increases. There must surely be enough students to have 7/8 at both Westminster Woods and
SIB.
The Upper Grand District School board has their collective head in the sand if they don’t realize they
are losing students to the Catholic School Board because of this issue. I know several families that
have transferred their children to St. Ignatius School because of the lack of grade 7/8 at SIB. This will
be an option that I will explore if the board continues to stall on implementing grade 7/8 at SIB.
Many families have more than one child and may rely on the older children walking the younger
children home after school. Obviously if the older siblings are being bussed to Rickson Ridge then
this will be impossible to do and will create hardships for some families.
Rickson Ridge is in an area with very limited future growth and will always rely on bussing to be
viable. Why not bus students from other areas of Guelph that do not have a beautiful school that is
within walking distance for many students.
May 24, 2013
According to graphs and figures presented by the board, if UGDSB implements grade 7 & 8 at SIB,
the following are true:
Both Sir Isaac Brock and Rickson Ridge will have population within the 80% - 100% capacity,
indicated as ideal. This means that neither school would be deemed under-utilized or over-crowded
for the entire time period displayed on the graph ( I believe through the year 2022).
Both schools would have approximately 100 Intermediate students. This figure emulates both the
board average for intermediate students in JK-8 schools, and the recent board decision regarding the
distribution of intermediate students in the French Immersion progam.
There is a financial cost to the board to continue to bus 100+ students from SIB to Rickson Ridge. The
cost is currently approximately $60,000/year ($40,000/bus/year x 1.5 buses) to bus these students
out of their community, and away from their school that has the capacity to house them. This
$60,000/year cost is also likely to rise on an annual or contract renewal basis. I understand that there
would be costs involved to retrofit SIB for an Intermediate program, but a quick estimate would
indicate that the break-even point of the retrofit vs. busing costs would likely be in the two-year range.
8 May 16 to May 24, 2013 I do not have the specific dates at my disposal, but UGDSB made the decision some 20 years ago to
move away from Intermediate schools (ie. Willow Road, College Avenue) and move towards K-8
schools (now JK-8). With the exception of Sir Isaac Brock (which WAS built to accommodate grade 7
& 8), I don't believe UGDSB has opened any other K-6 schools in the City of Guelph in this
timeframe. The board even converted, sold, and demolished older intermediate schools in support of
this direction. If there was a great measurable justification for transferring grade 6 students to another
school for an Intermediate program, this would be the norm and would be true for all students in
UGDSB and the City of Guelph.
The information presented by UGDSB at the May 2nd information meeting already indicates that the
inclusion of an Intermediate program at SIB is feasible, and I was encouraged by the numbers
presented. According to graphs and figures presented by the board, if UGDSB implements grade 7 &
8 at SIB, the following are true:
Both Sir Isaac Brock and Rickson Ridge will have population within the 80% - 100% capacity,
indicated as ideal. This means that neither school would be deemed under-utilized or over-crowded
for the entire time period displayed on the graph ( I believe through the year 2022).
Both schools would have approximately 100 Intermediate students. This figure emulates both the
board average for intermediate students in JK-8 schools, and the recent board decision regarding the
distribution of intermediate students in the French Immersion progam.
It is a shame that the Sir Isaac Brock Grades 7/8 Feasibility Study has turned into a fight between two
school communities. The desire of SIB parents to have a grade 7 & 8 program is reasonable based on
the fact that this is the situation in almost all of the elementary schools in the City of Guelph.
The SIB students and families have everything to gain with the inclusion of grade 7 & 8. Not to
mention the loss of the inconvenience and impact of busing.
The Rickson Ridge community truly has nothing to lose. Rickson Ridge will still be a JK-8 school with
an intermediate population comparable to most other JK-8 schools in the city. These schools function
well and many offer rotary and instrumental music programs.
I am insulted by the attitude of the Rickson Ridge community, that students from our community should
be bused elsewhere, so that their children can have what they perceive to be a superior program then
all other JK-8 schools in the city.
May 24, 2013
Through a lot of these discussions, it seems that a lot of parents have lost sight of what is important,
which is their child's education. They seem to be putting a higher weight on convenience. The bottom
line is that these kids will have a much higher level of education together, regardless of where it is.
Keep them together, and provide these kids the education they deserve.
9