Who was
Robert
Forman
of
Scotland
1296?
(2nd ed.)
March 13
2012
Robert Forman probably came from England, perhaps with Isabella
de Warrene when she married the future John Balliol in 1281. In
1296 Robert Forman seems to have been with King John Balliol at
Stracathro, near Brechin, Angus, when he resigned his kingdom to
King Edward I of England. In the same year, Robert swore an oath of
allegiance to King William 1 of England. Possibly with the help of the
Earl of Surrey, John de Warenne (King John Balliol's father-in-law),
Robert may have gone to York in England, perhaps with Isabella de
Warenne’s sister, Eleanor, and her husband Henry (1st Baron Percy
of Alnwick) Percy. Descendants may have infiltrated back across the
border in later years. One or more of Robert’s children may have
stayed in Scotland under the care of the Comyns and the Morays.
Simon Forman, the English, quack astrologer claimed that he (Simon)
was descended from the Earl of Devonshire. A family tree for the de
Redvers/de Vernon family, Earls of Devon, shows two of the de
Vernons married female Baliolls, who may have been third cousins
thrice removed of King John Balliol. No firm conclusion can be drawn
as to the origin of the Formans.
Author: David
John Forman,
2012.
2
Contents
WHO WAS ROBERT FORMAN OF SCOTLAND 1296? ................................. 2
Introduction ....................................................................................................... 2
The signing of the Ragman roll ........................................................................ 6
Robert Forman and associates on the Ragman Roll ......................................... 8
The abdication of King John Balliol. .............................................................. 11
Robert Forman’s seal. ..................................................................................... 14
What happened to Robert Forman and family after 1296?............................. 17
Earlier Formans? ............................................................................................. 24
Figure 1. Stracathro Parish Church from road to Stracathro House and sign
outside church wall. Photos Sara York 2012. ....................................................... 9
Figure 2. Strathacro Parish Church and churchyard. Photo compilation Sara
York 2012.............................................................................................................. 9
Figure 3. Remains of Clunie Castle, foreground, and Loch of Clunie. Photo Sara
York 2010............................................................................................................ 10
Figure 4. Plate from the Forman Armorial, circa 1562. Armorial owned by the
National Library for Scotland NLS Adv MS 31.4.2. John Balliol. (1249-1315)
looks rather forlorn in his tabard bearing the Scottish arms, with a broken
sceptre. Note the lion and fleur-de-lis on his Tabard. Also a broken crown. ..... 12
Figure 5. Brechin Castle stands proud on a massive bluff of rocks above the
River Southesk on the site of a much older fortress belonging to the Scottish
kings. The present house was last reconstructed in the early1700's and
incorporates parts of the original Castle dating back to the 13th century. The
building has evolved from a defensive role to its present great house style.
Panorama from Dalhousie Estates website. ........................................................ 13
Figure 6. William the Lion (1143-1214) is generally credited with adopting this
symbol, although records of this are uncertain. It was referred to as the "Lion of
Justice" and the "Lion of Bravery". .................................................................... 15
Figure 7. Kelso Abbey, 2005. View from back. Photo Sara York 2005. ........... 19
Figure 8. Seton Armorial John Balliol and wife (from Wikipedia). The Seton
Armorial is owned by Sir Francis Ogilvy of Inverquharity, Bt. ......................... 22
WHO WAS ROBERT FORMAN OF SCOTLAND 1296?
Introduction
According to The Surnames of Scotland, the first of the Forman names recorded
in Scotland was Robert Foreman of Edinburghshire who rendered homage
1296. His seal bears a fleur-de-lys and S’ Roberti Forman (Bain, 11, p. 208,
3
555).
In company with about 2000 Scotsmen, Robert Forman swore an oath of
allegiance to King William 1 of England in 1296. This oath was duly recorded
in what is called the “Ragman Roll”. The roll showed Robert was a property
owner in Edinburgh parish and very little else. In this document I attempt to cast
some light on who he was and who his ancestors may have been. How he may
connect to future generations of Scottish Formans, is the subject of a separate
paper.
There are very few known facts about Robert Forman. No one would even
know there had been a Forman in Scotland at that time without his name on the
Ragman Roll.
No surnames appear in the charters of Alexander I (1106-1124), but in the
reign of his brother and successor, David I (1124-1153), we find them
coming into use. In his charter, as Earl David, before he ascended the
throne, founding the abbey of Selkirk, c. 1120, we find Robertus de Brus,
Robertus de Umfraville, Galterus de Lyndeseia, etc25 In the Inquisitio by
the same earl referred to above, c. 1124, the names of Gervasius Ridel,
Robertus de Burnevilla, Reinald de Muscans, etc., occur among the
witnesses.26 From this time onward we find names mainly territorial
derived from possession of land becoming common, though a few are
descriptive and some are patronymic.
During the reigns of David I, Malcolm IV, and William the Lion, the
inhabitants of the burgh towns were largely English (Anglians) or Flemish,
and the surnames of many of these settlers were derived from their trades
or occupations. William the Lion granted to Pagan the goldsmith
(aurifaber) a land in Edinburgh on the south side of St. Giles's church
where he settled, and to Henry Bald (Henricus Baldus), another goldsmith,
some land in Perth.
Many of these followers, especially younger sons, came from
Northamptonshire. Some of them, for example, Bisset, Chisholm, and Fraser,
like the contemporary military adventurers in Ireland, became more Gaelic than
the Gaels themselves.
The earliest documented Formans were in England.
The internet surname database (2009).
There are at least two origins for this very interesting surname which is
generally accepted as being of Old English pre 7th century origins. The
first and most likely is that it is job descriptive for the manager of a large
farm or even an estate. The derivation is from the elements 'fir' meaning
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strong or firm and 'man(n)' - literally friend, servant or worker. The
surname is also found as Firman or Furman, as well as Forman and its first
recording as a 'given' name pre-dating a surname, is in the 1086 Domesday
Book, when one 'Firmin' was registered in Cambridgeshire. The second,
but much rarer possibility is both occupational and residential being a
corrupt form of the medieval English 'Ford-man', the keeper of the ford'.
This surname is normally found simply as 'Ford, Forde, or Foord, but with
surnames there are few simple explanations.
Victoria County History Publication. Mary D. Lobel editor (1957) - A History
of the County of Oxford: Volume 5: Bullingdon hundred.
The small increase in the rent of the fishery compared with the rise in the
rent of the mill may be accounted for by the grant of a part of the fishing
rights to Abingdon Abbey. In Henry I's reign William de Courcy granted it
the fishery called 'Sotiswere' and henceforward it was attached to the
monastic kitchen. Ulfwine Porman was the lessee in the 12th century. He
is listed among the fishermen supplying the abbey, and paid 12s. to the
kitchen. (fn. 174).
Porman is considered an early variation of the name Forman.
Wickipedia. Economy of Scotland in the High Middle Ages.
David I, who established the first burghs, copied verbatim the burgher laws
from the English burgh Newcastle-Upon-Tyne. He essentially imported the
burgh into his "Scottish" dominions from his English ones. Burghs were
for the most part populated by foreigners, rather than native Scots or even
Lothianers. The predominant ethnic group were the Flemings, but early
burgesses were also English, French and German.
William Page, 1891. Three early assize rolls for the county of Nortymberland,
sæc. XIII. (Volume 88). THE PUBLICATIONS OF THE SURTEES
SOCIETY. p. 59.
ASSIZE BOLL, NORTHUMBERLAND, 40 HEN III. (Henry reigned from 1216 to his death on
16 November 1272).
ASSIZE ROLL, NORTHUMBERLAND, 40 HEN III, A.D. 1256.
Thomas Forman optulit se iiijto die versus Simonem filium Margaretae
Suthamelneburn’, de placito quod teneat eiconventionemfactam inter
eosdem Thomam et Margaretam, matrem praedicti Simonis, cujus heres
ipse est, de uno tofto, quadraginta acris terrse et dimidia cum pertinentiis in
Suth Milburn’ Et Simon non venit. Et praeceptum est vicecomiti quod
distringat eum per omnes terras, etc. Ita, etc. Donec, etc. Et vicecomes dicit
quod non habet catalla per quod potest distringere, nisi tantummodo
quamdam terram seminatam, unde praeceptum est vicecomiti quod
5
distringat eum per omnes terras, etc. Ita, etc. Donee, etc. Et quod de exitu,
etc. Et quod habeat corpus ejus in adventu justiciariorum prece querentis.
Translated by Diana Primrose:
As I read the original, the agreement was between Thomas and Margaret. Simon
was her heir. I think Simon must have defaulted on the agreement with Thomas.
The sheriff is to apprehend Simon so that he does appear. Thomas seems to be a
man who wanted to pursue what he thought was owed to him by agreement.
Milbourne is found on modern maps about 10 miles northwest of Newcastleupon-Tyne.
Note that, in the following documents, the use of the name “Thomas the
Foreman” indicates that, in these cases, the name is occupational.
Smith, Thomas Charles. The history of the parish of Ribchester, in the county of
Lancaster, p. 123-4. Part II. Chapter 3. The extra-Parochial Chapelry of Stydd.
By Inq., held at Appleby, 20th October, 1292, it was found that the
predecessors of the then Prior of the house of St. Saviour belonging to the
Knights of St. John of Jerusalem, in the time of Hen. III, after Charter
made 37 Hen. III (1252-3), had acquired (between 1258-72) two carucates
of land, 100 acres of wood and moor, and 40s. rent in Button, Ribchester,
and Alton in Blackburnshyre, from a certain Adam capellano custode
domus Sanct. Salvatoris de Dutton de assensu Alesie de Lasci," during the
minority of Henry de Lasci, Count of Lincolnshire, then chief lord.
In the Towneley MSS is a deed without date, but probably of the same date
as the one just quoted, in which William, son of Richard de Dutton,
granted to Adam de Blakeburne and his heirs an annual rent of 12d., which
the grantor had "for the land of Alexander Bothcollot;" and an annual rent
of 8d. for the land of "Adam the Forman." Witnesses: Lord Adam, master
of the House of St. Saviour; Henry de Cundesclyne, John de Burnhul,
Robert de Huntingdene, Richard Faber de Dutton, and Adam le Forman.'
(Towneley MSS., D.D., 1141).
Smith, Thomas Charles; Shortt, Jonathan, joint author. The history of the parish
of Ribchester, in the county of Lancaster (1890).
HISTORY OF RIBCHESTEB. [Part II].
Whitaker quotes from the Harl. M88. several charters (without date)
relating to Richard son of Ughtred de Button. The following (also without
date) from the Towneley MSS., apparently relates to another son, Ralph de
Button, who granted to Ralph son of Adam de Blackburne all his land in
"the territory" of Button within certain boundaries. "Ernnysclogh"; the
lands of Henry de Ourdeclyne and Adam the Forman; "Rakendesclough;"
6
"Houslone," and the "hedges of John de Burnyl" are the boundaries.
Witnesses (among others) Richard de Alston, Walter de
Bayley, and Richard de Balderston. ''
The document has been scanned before posting on the internet: Ourdeclyne is
probably an error for Cundesclyne;
An early relevant, substantiated and well documented appearance of the name
“Forman” is Thomas le Foreman in Shrewsbury, Shropshire, England in
1287. He (or Thomas le Forman) appears in over 436 documents ranging up to
1347 (and, for various reasons, after 1347) after which he probably died of old
age. The documents are kept at The National Archives, Kew. They are nearly all
of the Debtors court for Shrewsbury in England. For instance, the first records a
debt for £16, for hides of cattle, brought before Thomas le Foreman who held
a position in the court. One document describes him as the keeper of the
Mayor’s seal.
Shrewsbury is located in the county of Shropshire (formerly Salop), in central
England, close to the Welsh border.
None of these people are obvious progenitors of our Robert Forman who signed
the Ragman Roll. Some background is needed to see where he may have fitted
into Scottish society. One principle is that, as we will see, he was a property
owner and must have had a powerful lord to protect him.
The signing of the Ragman roll
Calendar of documents relating to Scotland, ed. by Joseph Bain (Edinburgh,
1881) vol.2 (edited for brevity). Summarising part of the progress of King
Edward I.
On Tuesday (31 July) to Kildrummy, a castle of the earl of Mar, and there
abode the Wednesday, 1 August 1296. On Thursday he was at the hospital
of Kincardine in the Mearns; on Saturday (4th August) at the city of
Brechin; on Sunday to the abbey of Aberbrothock, and it is reported that
the abbot told the Scots that there were only women in England. On
Monday he was at Dundee; on Tuesday at Baligerny, the red castle; on
Wednesday at Perth (8 August); on Thursday at the abbey of Lundores,
and there he remained the Friday, St. Laurence's day. On Saturday he was
at the city of St. Andrews, a castle and a good town; on Sunday at
Markinch, where are only the minster and three houses. On Monday he
was at the abbey of Dunfermline, where nearly all the kings of Scotland
lie. On Tuesday to Stirling, and there he remained on Wednesday, the day
of the Assumption of our Lady. On Thursday to Linlithgow; on Friday to
Edinburgh, and there he remained the Saturday. On the Sunday to
Haddington; Monday to Pinkerton, near Dunbar; Tuesday to Coldingham;
7
Wednesday to Berwick. And he conquered the realm of Scotland, and
searched it, as is above written, within twenty-one weeks, without any
more.
At Berwick he held his Parliament; and there were all the bishops, earls,
barons, abbots, and priors, and the sovereigns of all the common people;
and there he received the homages of all, and their oaths that they would be
good and loyal to him. To the well regulated people he forthwith gave up
all their own goods and those of their tenants; the earls, barons, and
bishops he permitted to enjoy their lands, provided they came at All Saints
to the parliament at St. Edmunds. Then he appointed the earl of Warren
to be guardian of the land, and sir Hugh de Cressingham treasurer, sir
Walter de Agmondesham chancellor. Then he tarried at Berwick three
weeks and three days, arranging his affairs, and set out on his road to
England on the Sunday after the feast of the Holy Cross [September 16].
28 August 1296, parliament was convened at Berwick, and two thousand
prominent Scottish landowners were summoned to appear with a signed
and sealed document prescribing their homage to King Edward I, not as
their Lord Paramount, but as the King of England. Among the names that
appeared on the Ragman Roll, were Robert Bruce, 6th Lord of Annandale,
his son, the 2nd Earl of Carrick and William Wallace's uncle, Sir Reginald
de Crauford.
On 28 August, 1296, Edward held a "parliament" at Berwick. All the
prominent Scottish landowners, churchmen and burgesses were summoned
to swear allegiance to Edward and sign the parchments and affix their
seals, many of which had ribbons attached. In addition to such prominent
people as Robert Bruce, 6th Lord of Annandale, his son, the 2nd Earl of
Carrick and William Wallace's uncle, Sir Reginald de Crauford, 2,000
signatures were inscribed, making it a most valuable document for future
researchers.
Edward required 2000 Scottish landowners to sign the "Ragman Roll" at
Berwick-on-Tweed, August 28th, 1296 acknowledging him as king. The
Ragman Roll has been described as 'a list of Flemish and Norman lords'
who Edward I saw as a potential threat to his occupation of Scotland.
Bain Vol 2 Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, p. 207-8.
[Ragman Roll—continued.']
1296. August 28. Berwick-on-Tweed :—Johan de Garviaghe del counte de
Aberdene, Aleyn fitz Thomas de Fultone, Nicol de Eultone, Uctins le
Harpur, del counte de Lanark, Johan Skene, Patrick de Skene, Johan Lyp,
del counte de Aberdene, Thomas le Ewer del counte de Ednebnrk, Johan
8
fitz Randolfe de Fodiche del counte de Fyfe, Wautier Byset del counte de
Aberdene, Thomas Purdevyn, Patrick Gilcristes sone, Johan Manuel,
Adam Gurdone, Johan de Bondingtone clerk, del counte de Strivelyn,
William de Cluny ' chauntur ' of Breghyn, Patrick de Blauntire del
counte de Strivelyn, Henry de Strivelyn persone del eglise de
Upsetelingtone, Symon de Lichardeswode, Peronel de
Veupont, Adam de Kirketone, del counte de Berewyk, Cristiane del
Grenehevede del counte de Selkirke, Johan Pedgrogeny del counte de
Perth, Geffrei le Baxtere of Lossithe, Laurence de Lekathy,Adam liz
David del counte de Forfare, Johan Legun of Rothegle del counte de
Lanark, Johan Broun del counte de Berewyk, Thomas de Boghan, Robert
Foreman, del counte de Edneburk, Robert de Chattone, Huwe de
Hextildespethe, del counte de Rokesbuik, William Gardeyn del counte de
Forfare, William fiz Andrew de Douglas del counte de Linliscu, Friar
Adam ' ministre del ordre de la Triuite de Berwyk,' Patrick Lescot,
Cristiane 'atte bothe' of Berewyk, del counte de Berewyk, Friar Thomas
abbot of Inchaufrau, ut svpra. [m. 30.]
Robert Forman and associates on the Ragman Roll
Calendar of Documents. There are two entries for Robert Foreman, p, 208 refers
to his entry in the Ragman Roll - Robert Foreman del comte de Edneburk.
App.iii, 506 describes his seal - Oval: a fleur-de-lys. 'S' Roberti Porman'.
Edneburk means Edinburgh, or, perhaps, parish of Edinburgh. S stands for
Sigilla or seal, and counte (comte) stands for county.
The index to Calender of Documents... records him as 'of Edinburgh', but it
probably means he was from Edinburgh or the surrounds, as Edinburgh itself
was a royal burgh and had been since 1124- 1127.
740 SOCIETY OF ANTIQUARIES OF SCOTLAND, 1999. The sigillography
of the Ragman Roll, Bruce A McAndrew.
Joined by strings are (seals)
(1) 3504 Oval, the Agnus Dei (illegible)
RR1381 William de Cluny, Chanter of Brechin Probably a priest.
Within the group limits of RR1366-RR1403, there is only one unallocated
priest - RR1381 William de Cluny, Chanter of Brechin.
(2) 3505 Lozenge shaped, a long-legged bird S'ADE FILII DAVIT
RR 1391 Adam fitz David, FOR
(3) 3506 Oval, a fleur-de-lis S' ROBERTI FORMAN
RR 1395 Robert Foreman, EDN.
McAndrew says the important, if not entirely unexpected, conclusion —
seals joined by strings are proximate.
9
The internet surname database.
One William de Cluny of Perthshire rendered homage to Edward 1 of
England in 1296, and another William de Cluny, of Brechin, also
rendered homage in that year and is recorded again in 1305 as Sir William
de Clony, chaplain to the bishop of Brechin.
Website. Sacred Scotland. Strathacro Parish Church.
Stracathro Church is built within the site of a Roman fort (c80-230AD). In
1296 King John Balliol submitted to Edward I in the graveyard before
abdicating the throne of Scotland.
Figure 1. Stracathro Parish Church from road to Stracathro House and sign
outside church wall. Photos Sara York 2012.
Figure 2. Strathacro Parish Church and churchyard. Photo compilation Sara
York 2012.
Website. Brechin Cathedral Stracathro Kirk.
Stracathro Kirk is on the site of a First Century Roman fort; subsequently a
Celtic church dedicated to St Rule was built there. Later it was the Church
of the Chanter of the Cathedral of Brechin. It was considered 'little
better than a heap of ruins, and has all the marks of great antiquity'
according to the First Statistical Account of 1790.
10
However, this was rectified when a new building was erected nine years
later. This rectangular red sandstone building was extended in the late
1800's to form the existing church.
The graveyard is noted as having been the locus in July 1296 of the
submission by King John Baliol of Scotland to the oppressor King
Edward I of England, prior to King John abdicating the throne of
Scotland.
Today, once again as in days gone by, Stracathro Kirk is tied to Brechin
Cathedral.
The internet surname database.
The Clunie name is Scottish in origin, and is a locational surname deriving
from the place called "Clunie" in the district of Stormont, in Perthshire.
The placename means "the slope near the reef", Clunie being situated on
the shores of one of the small lochs on Lunan Burn, near Blairgowrie.
Figure 3. Remains of Clunie Castle, foreground, and Loch of Clunie. Photo Sara
York 2010.
A relationship to the people at Clunie Castle is possible. If there is one, the
following documents suggest the overall influence of John Comyn.
RH5. List of Documents Transferred from Public Record Office, London,
1189-1305. National Archives of Scotland.
RH5/187. Receipt by Patrick Grant, castellan at Cluny, for £4. received
from Hugh de Erth, bailie of Sir J. Comyn, as his wages for forty days. 22
Dec 1291. Dated at Cluny.
RH5188 records Patrick Grant as keeper of Cluny Castle and is dated 7
December 1291.
11
RH5/189 Receipt by Patrick Grant, castellan at Cluny, for £4. received
from Hugh de Erth, bailie of Sir J. Comyn, in Stormont, as his wages for
40 days. 28 Mar 1292. Dated at Cluny.
RH5/192 Receipt by Patrick Grant, castellan at Cluny, for 5 marks and
40d. received from Hugh de Erth, bailie of Sir J. Comyn, to whom he has
delivered up the castle of Cluny. 27 Jul 1292. Dated at Cluny.
Adam fitz David seems to have come from Forfar (Angus), so it seems likely
that all three individuals were in Stracathro/Brechin (in Angus) when they
signed their oath of fealty.
Note that the seals of Adam fitz David and William de Cluny were joined to
that of Robert Forman by string. William was the chanter of the cathedral of
Brechin. As such, he was the vicar of Stracathro Kirk. King John Balliol
abdicated in the graveyard. Therefore, I conclude that all three of them were a
part of John Balliol’s party when he abdicated at Stracathro and perhaps also at
Brechin. This seems the most plausible explanation for Robert’s presence at
such an, apparently, unpopulated place as Stracathro in the company of the
vicar. Perhaps both William de Cluny and Robert Forman held positions in the
court of (King) John Balliol.
Why would Balliol want Robert Forman to be there? One possibility is that
Robert Forman came from England with a relative of John Balliol’s (deceased?)
wife, Isabella de Warrenne. She was a daughter of John de Warrenne, who
was general of the invading army and a friend of Edward I. Robert Forman’s
presence at the submission(s) would have had a calming effect and been nonthreatening to either side.
The abdication of King John Balliol.
The following documents give the flavour of the abdication and indicate some
confusion about its location and date.
Bain Vol 2. Calendar of documents relating to Scotland. July 2 1296.
754. Letters patent whereby ' John, by the Grace of God King of
Scotland, ' confesses his offences against his liege lord and delivers
up to him the kingdom of Scotland and its people. Kyncardyn.
[Chapter House {Scots Documents), Box 99, No. 133.]
Damaged and in parts defaced. The Great seal of Scotland in white wax
has been appended by a tag through a slit in the deed. Now broken in
half. Obv. the King in chain mail and surcoat, on horseback with sword
drawn, riding to sinister. The royal arms of Scotland on his shield and
housings of the horse. Rev. the King seated on a throne, the shield of
12
Balliol on his right, that of Galloway on his left.
Bain Vol 2. Calendar of documents relating to Scotland.
July 7- Aug. 28. 821.
Original instrument attesting the renunciation by John K. Of Scotland of
his treaty with the K. of France against England, done in the cemetery of
Stracathro (Stronkatherache), 7th July—the resignation of his kingdom
and people, and of his royal seal, enclosed in a little purse under his privy
seal, to the Bishop of Durham on behalf of the K. of England, in the castle
of Brechin, on 10th July,— with the submissions of various earls, bishops,
abbots, barons, and communities of Scotland, on subsequent days down to
August 28.
[Chapter House (Scots Documents), Box 17, No. 4-]
This is the original of the document printed by Mr Stevenson, from the
National Archives of France. The latter is a very accurate transcript.
Brechin & District Charitable Trust internet site.
King John fled to the Angus hills but in July, having little or no support, he
intimated his willingness to submit to Edward and a few days later
surrendered at Stracathro. The Bishop of Durham summoned the Scots to
Brechin Castle where they were made aware of the English demands. It
was probably on 8 July and in Montrose that the King of Scots appeared
before the English king to make the formal surrender of his kingdom.
Edward humiliated him by having his royal insignia ripped from his
surcoat, an incident that provided history with Balliol's soubriquet Toom
Tabard (i.e. empty coat).
Figure 4. Plate from the Forman Armorial, circa 1562. Armorial owned by the
National Library for Scotland NLS Adv MS 31.4.2. John Balliol. (1249-1315)
looks rather forlorn in his tabard bearing the Scottish arms, with a broken
sceptre. Note the lion and fleur-de-lis on his Tabard. Also a broken crown.
13
Wikipedia.
John abdicated at Stracathro near Montrose on 10 July 1296.[4] Here the
arms of Scotland were formally torn from John's surcoat, giving him the
abiding name of "Toom Tabard" (empty suit).
Durris History. Internet site. Sir William de Cluny is described as a Deeside
baron. Durris and Aberdeen lie on the River Dee.
At Stracathro, near Brechin, on 10 July 1296, John (1292 to 1296)
resigned the kingdom into Edward’s hands.
David D Black, 1867. History of Brechin to 1864, p. 19.
Edward is said to have come to Brechin on the 6th, and to have obtained
from Baliol the surrender of the Scottish Crown and Kingdom in a very
humiliating manner, in the Castle of Brechin, where the great seal of
Scotland was broken to pieces.
Figure 5. Brechin Castle stands proud on a massive bluff of rocks above the
River Southesk on the site of a much older fortress belonging to the Scottish
kings. The present house was last reconstructed in the early1700's and
incorporates parts of the original Castle dating back to the 13th century. The
building has evolved from a defensive role to its present great house style.
Panorama from Dalhousie Estates website.
10 July 1296, at Brechin, King John Balliol donned a white robe, stripped
of any royal insignia and carrying the white rod of a penitent, formally
abdicated from the Kingdom of Scotland in front of the Bishop of Durham,
Antony Bek. The ceremony was repeated again at Montrose, but this time
in front of King Edward I.
[Walter Coutts, 1889. Historical guide to Brechin and Neighbourhood, p.4.
. . . . his endeavour to throw off the English yoke brought Edward with a
powerful army into Scotland, where, after taking the fortresses of Berwick,
Dunbar, Edinburgh, and Stirling, he marched upon Forfar (Buchanan's
History of Scotland, vol. i., p. 391) where he heard Baliol then was.
Meeting with no opposition, he came to Montrose, from which he went to
Kincardine Castle, and remained there during the night of the 11th or 12th
14
of July (Memorials of Angus and Mearns, 1st Ed., p. 83). He then
proceeded north as far as Elgin, but meeting with no trace of his enemy he
returned to Kincardine Castle on the 2nd or 3rd of August. The following
day he crossed the North Esk at the King's Ford, and was met by Baliol at
Stracathro, where the unhappy Scottish monarch tendered his submission.
A few days after he signed his abdication in Brechin Castle, 1296 (Ib., p.
125).]
Robert Forman’s seal.
According to McAndrew.
Considered from a heraldic perspective, disappointingly only 20% of the
seals can be considered heraldic. However a further 16% can be termed as
'proto-heraldic' in the sense that an element on the seal became part of a
later heraldic achievement. However, by far the biggest class are nonheraldic devices (56%) with the remainder split between ecclesiastical
vesica and ladies' seals.
I have determined that the fleur-de-lis is a common seal. 3510, 3553, 3558,
3573, 3574, 3585, 3602 and 3618, at least, are also fleur-de-lis, but there is no
pattern in either the surnames or the locations associated with them, except in
the following example. Other than this, the seal may have no real significance.
Thomas H. Cockburn-Hood. 1888, The house of Cockburn of that ilk and the
cadets thereof.
p. 33. Robert de Weepunt, styled likewise del Counte de Edeneburk, who
affixed a seal with a fleurs-de-lys, some old family secretum probably.
These gentlemen styled of Edinburghshire were no doubt in occupation of
some of the family lands there as tenants of their chief, the Lord of
Langton, Bolton, and Carriden. (Veteri Pontes?).
This is of interest because, as we will see later, the name, Weepunt, Vipont, etc,
does appear in the appendix as a marriage to a descendant of William de Vernon
the brother of Baldwin (1st Earl of Devon) (Reviers) de Redvers:
William (Sir, High Sherrif Lancashire etc) De Vernon, b. bef 1230. He
married Margery De Stokeport.
(1) Richard (Sir) De Vernon, b. abt 1240. He married
Margaret De Vipont.
This raise the possibility of a relationship between Robert Forman and the
Veteri Pontes. In turn this raises the possibility that Robert Forman was also
connected to James Douglas.
There is one instance of the fleur-de-lis occurring in a later Forman seal.
15
Shaw, Lachlan, 1882. The history of the province of Moray. Comprising the
counties of Elgin and Nairn, the greater part of the county of Inverness and a
portion of the county of Banff,--all called the province of Moray before there
was a division into counties (Volume 3).
Seal of (Andrew) Forman.—A beautifully designed and executed seal.
Unfortunately it is a little broken, the parts that remain are, however, very
perfect. A triple canopy, richly ornamented, and supported by slender
pillars. Beneath the centre one the usual representation of the Trinity;
beneath the dexter canopy the Blessed Virgin and infant Jesus; beneath the
sinister a figure of Mary Magdalene, with the box of spikenard; the
background diapered with a lozenge, enclosing a fleur-de-lis. At the lower
part of the seal is a shield, the upper part of which only remains, showing it
to have been quarterly; first a chevron, between three fishes haurient, for
Forman; second, a gander, with a bell fastened to his neck.*' S' Andree
Epi.Mo[RAVIENS. COM]MENDA[TARII DE COLDINGH]AM ET
COTINGHAM." (Kilravock Charters.)
Lachlan Shaw seems to have mistaken a camel for a gander. Of course both
have long necks.
If the seal is significant in Robert Forman’s case there are a few possibilities.
Firstly, it is possible that it means ‘king’s servant’. After all fleur-de-lis frame
the Scottish banner.
Figure 6. William the Lion (1143-1214) is generally credited with adopting this
symbol, although records of this are uncertain. It was referred to as the "Lion of
Justice" and the "Lion of Bravery".
1222: first known use under Alexander II, on a seal. It also appears on a seal of
Alexander III. The design was surprisingly complex for its time - possibly the
double tressure fleury counter fleury is related to the French fleur de lys,
although that is not known until 1223 in France.
Secondly, the seal could indicate a “difference”.
16
James Parker. A glossary of terms used in Heraldry.
Cadency, marks of, otherwise called Distinctions, or Differences(fr.
brisures): variations of the original arms of a family, or marks attached to
them for the purpose of pointing out the several branches, and the relation
in which they stand to each other and to their common ancestor. It also
appears "that younger sons bore the label variously charged, sometimes
with the whole or part of their mother's arms, or the arms of a distinguished
family from which they were descended; that more distant branches
changed the colours, or charges, of the coat; placed a bend over it;
surrounded it with a bordure, or assumed a canton, plain or charged."
Although the change of tinctures, and the addition, removal, or alteration
of charges are very frequently marks of cadency, it must not be supposed
that all families of the same name, and between whose arms there is some
resemblance, are descended from the same ancestors, for the arms of
ancient families have often been very unjustly granted with slight
alteration to persons whose relation to such families consisted only in
similarity of name.
The differences now in use may be divided into two classes; those used
by the royal family, and those which should be borne by all others. The
sons and daughters of the sovereign all bear labels of three points argent.
That of the Prince of Wales is plain, but those of the other princes and
princesses are charged with crosses, fleur-de-lis, hearts, or other figures for
the sake of distinction. Princes and princesses, being the sons and
daughters of the above, are distinguished by labels of five points charged
in the same manner. All such differences should be borne on the arms,
crest, and supporters.
The differences now in use for all families except that of the sovereign
may be partially traced to the time of Edward III. They are as follows:--
FIRST HOUSE.
First son. A label of 3 points.
Fourth son. A martlet.
Second son. A crescent.
Fifth son. An annulet.
Third son. A mullet.
Sixth son. A fleur-de-lis.
If the fleur-de-lys seal does indicate a difference, it could mean that Robert
Forman was descended from a member of the English royal family.
Alternatively, the seal could indicate that he was the sixth son of an armigerous
family.
I have noticed elsewhere in the rolls that the county of Edinburgh extends to
Haddington. There is an entry in the Ragman Rolls for: Fermin, Adam le fiz
(burgois de Hadington). Fermin possibly an alternative spelling for Forman?
17
What happened to Robert Forman and family after 1296?
The answer to the question of what happened to Robert Forman and family is
twofold. Robert himself is thought to have gone to England with the Percies.
However, one of Robert’s sons, at least, stayed in Scotland where he was taken
up in turn by the Comyns, Morays and Douglases.
As a property owner in Edinburgh district in 1296, it is clear that Robert must
have owed allegiance to a great lord. I have speculated that Robert Forman
was originally a servant of the de Warennes in England and came to Scotland
with Isabella de Warenne when she married the future King John Balliol in
about 1281. Robert later became a servant of King John Balliol. He could be
expected to have had a family.
According to a commercial Forman document.
“Some members of the family migrated to England as a result of the
English/Scottish border disputes and in 1301 Alan Forman held estates in
the county of Yorkshire”. By the end of the 14th century, there were no
fewer than four separate branches of the name in Yorkshire.
Inquisitions and assessments relating to feudal aids, with other analogous
documents preserved in the Public record office, A.D. 1284-1431, published by
authority of H.M. principal secretary of state for the Home department. Author:
Great Britain. Exchequer. Published in 1899. p. 144.
AD 1302-3. ELLERTON.
De feodo de Craistok j. car. terre.
Thomas de Pyk tenet di. car, Isabella de Lasceles di. car.,—un de xvj. car. terre
faciunt f.
De feodo de Gaunt iij. bov. terre.
Isabella de Lasceles j. bov., Thomas filius Simonis j. bov., Alanus Forman j.
bov.,—unde xvj. car. terre faciunt f.
[Ellerton is in Yorkshire.]
The Internet Surname Database.
The first recorded spelling of the family name is shown to be that of
Roberte Foreman, which was dated 1301, in the Yorkshire Pipe Rolls,
during the reign of King Edward 1st known as the Hammer of the Scots,
1272 - 1307.
Perhaps our Robert Forman escaped to Yorkshire under the protection of
Isabella de Warrenne’s sister, Eleanor, and her husband Henry (1st Baron
Percy of Alnwick) Percy. Eleanor had married Henry on 8 September 1268.
18
According to Wikipedia, their son:Henry, came into his inheritance of estates in Sussex and Yorkshire in
1293 and the following year married Eleanor, daughter of the Earl of
Arundel. . . .
By the summer of 1295 Henry was in the north with his grandfather Earl
Warenne. Edward I's deliberately humiliating treatment of King John I of
Scotland and his nobles was making war inevitable. Warenne was King
John's father in law, used as an intermediary by Edward. . . .
King John Balliol was forced to abdicate and Warenne appointed to govern
Scotland as a province. Having proved his ability Henry Percy was given
the task of governing Ayr, Galloway and Cumberland, based at Carlisle
Castle. . . . .
Early in 1299 the King granted the estates of Ingram Balliol, who had been
involved in the Scottish rebellions, to Henry Percy, including land in
England and south west Scotland. This not only gave him greater income
and status, but also a vested interest in the continuing conquest of
Scotland. The king also summoned Percy to attend parliament as a peer of
the realm, making him a baron by writ. His family had previously had the
courtesy title of baron because of their land holdings. Percy had proved
himself an able soldier and administrator and found royal favour. The rest
of the year was spent skirmishing with Scottish guerrilla groups, and the
following summer campaigning with the king although little was achieved
other than the capture of Caerlaverock Castle. Correspondence in late
1301 shows Percy at his estate at Leconfield in Yorkshire, where his
wife probably lived, at a safe distance from Scottish raiding parties. . .
..
In 1309 Henry was able to buy Alnwick Castle from Anthony Bek, the Prince
Bishop of Durham, giving him a base near to the action in Scotland and a
substantial annual income of about £475 from the associated lands. .
Michael Brown, 2007. The Black Douglases, p. 208.
From the 1300s to the 1400s the rise of the Percies mirrored that of the
Douglases. Both families originated, not in their kingdom’s marches, but in
neighbouring, more secure, regions. As the Douglases continued to draw
support from Clydesdale and Lothian, so the Percies included many
Yorkshiremen in their retinue. The power of the Percies to the north of their
Yorkshire estates was a product of the war. From 1296 onwards the family
acted as military lieutenants of the English crown in Scotland and the north,
receiving lands in Galloway and Angus for their services. However, more
19
significant gains were made in Northumberland. The purchase of Alnwick in
1310, the acquisition of Warkworth and other estates in return for royal service
and the grant of the forfeited Dunbar barony of Beanley in 1335 were the basis
of a landed stake in the country, which was increased further in the 1370s at the
expense of the Umfravilles. When the Percies received Jedburgh castle and
forest in 1342, itwas due to their ability to defend these lands, much as Bruce
expected Douglas to hold on to the border lordships granted to him. The
creation of Henry Percy as earl of Northumberland in 1377 acknowledged his
leading role in the northern marches. Like the Douglases in Scotland, the
Percies were crucial to the English war effort in the north. The earl’s retainers
provided many constables for English-held castles and constituted a significant
proportion of the English armies of the 1380’s. This military role was
recognised by the family’s prominence as march wardens, which reached its
height in the early 1390s when Earl Henry and his son ‘Hotspur’ had a
monopoly of the office.
The following documents provide supporting evidence that Robert Forman
went to England with the Percies. They show that two of his presumed
descendants, William and Robert, turn up at Kelso Abbey/Roxburgh Castle.
One document mentions “Henry earl of Northumberland warden of the west
March, and Henry Percy 'le filz' warden of the east March”, providing an
indirect link to the Percy family.
Figure 7. Kelso Abbey, 2005. View from back. Photo Sara York 2005.
20
No.518 Abb. Patrick and the convent: grant to William Forman of a corrody in
food and drink in return for good service: 22 June 1398. [At our monastery of
Kelso].
Liber S Marie de Calchou, Vol 2, 1113-1567, p. 409-410.
At Kelso, 22 June 1398. Corrodium for William Forman. (Corrodium,
latin – modern translation — an allowance of provisions for maintenance
dispensed as a charity.)
518. See translation below by Diane Baptie, professional researcher.
To all and sundry to whose notice the present letters shall come, Patrick,
Lord Abbot of the monastery of Kelso and its convent , greeting in God
eternal, we have with the unanimous consent of our chapter granted to
William Forman for his good service, good deeds and money laid out to
others, a sum of money in our hands which shall be used for him for the
whole of his life for food and drink in our monastery as our monks are
accustomed to receive, a chamber with a bed, clothes and all other
necessary needs, with pasture for a cow, so that the said William shall be
able to labour and if he becomes infirm through injury and is unable to
work, then he will be sustained in the meantime and will not be forced or
compelled to work. We agree among ourselves that the said William will
be released from this contract for all time when he is approaching death.
His wife will be helped when in mourning and daily prayers will be said by
our brothers in the chapter house. At the monastery of Kelso, the 22 June
1398.
Robert Forman, of Roxburgh, archer in castle of Roxburgh. According to:
Calendar of documents relating to Scotland, 4, 1357-1509, p. 118.
565. 30 October 1400. The K. orders Henry earl of Northumberland
warden of the west March, and Henry Percy 'le filz' warden of the east
March, to forbid the captors of Sir Richard Rotherford knight, and his sons,
John Tournebulle 'out wyth swerd,' and other Scottish captains and leaders,
to liberate or ransom them. Westminster. [Close, 2 Hen. IV. p. 1, m. 27.]
Robert Forman, of Roxburgh, archer in castle of Roxburgh. According to:
Calendar of documents relating to Scotland, 4, 1357-1509, p. 118.
567. 4 September 1400 – 3 December 1400. Compotus of Richard lord de
Grey of Codenore and Stephen le Scrope baneret, for pay, &c. of
themselves and 4 knights, 94 esquires, and 200 archers keeping the west
March towards Scotland and the castle of Roxburgh from 4th September of
the K.'s 1st year till 3rd December following, viz., a quarter of a year,
under writ of Privy seal of 16th March following.
Receipt:—[in various sums from the Treasurer, Henry Percy earl of
Northumberland, and others—£12 10s. for 1000 'stok fish,' £42 13s 4d,
21
for 12 casks of wheat flour at 66s 8d per cask, and 4 casks at 13s 4d per
cask, brought from London to Roxburgh.] Total, £1232 7s 7 ½d.
Discharge:—[Pay of themselves as bannerets, knights, esquires, and
archers, as in the muster roll, besides the usual 'reward,'] £1046 3s 7d.
They owe £186 4s ½
d. [Exchequer, Q. R. Miscellanea (Army), No. 55/2.]
[Muster roll referred to in above.
The first name is 'Monsire Johan Oldecastelle,' the fifth ‘Monsire William
Frank.' Among the ‘esquiers' Johan Andreusone of Tevedale and Michae1
of Anant; and of the archers, Robynet del Chambre, Richard lordeservant
of Roxburgh, Robert Taillour of Tevedale, Robert Forman of Roxburgh,
Thomas Treweman of Tewedale, Rogier Scot, and one or two others, are
probably Scotsmen.] [Exchequer, Q. R. Miscellanea (Army), No. 55/2.]
568. Indenture between the K. and Richard ‘Sire de Grey' and Stephen le
Scrope knight, whereby the latter undertake to keep the castle of Roxburgh
for 3 years from 4th September last, with a sufficient garrison, receiving
4000 marks per annum, in war time, till the new works and fosse are
finished, which done, 3000 per annum.
During truces the garrison to be 40 men-at-arms (themselves included),
and 80 archers, and their pay at rate of 2000 marks.
If a final peace is concluded, their pay to be arranged with the K.
In case of a 'royal' siege, the K. is bound to rescue them within 3 months
after notice. They are to keep the castle clear of ‘fymes,' . . .
Proximity of Kelso to Roxburgh Castle indicates that Robert the archer was
probably the son of William Forman.
One of Robert’s (of 1296 fame) sons is thought to have stayed in Scotland. His
descendants were John, Thomas, and Adam Forman who are the progenitors
of the main Forman family in Scotland. The partial family tree that follows is
used to indicate the likely migration path from King John Balliol to Lady
Joanna Murray.
John Balliol, King of Scotland was born circa 1240.2 He was the son of
John de Balliol and Devorguilla de Galloway.1 He married Isabella de
Warenne, daughter of Sir John de Warenne, 7th Earl of Surrey and Alice
de Lusignan, before 7 February 1280/81. He died between 4 March 1314
and 4 January 1315 at Château Gaillard, Normandy, France. He was
buried at Church of St Waast, Saint-Waast, Normandy, France.
Wickipedia.
22
Isabella de Warenne (c.1253- before 1292) was Baroness of Bywell by
her marriage to John Balliol; there is however doubt that she lived to
become his Queen consort when he succeeded to the Scottish throne.
Figure 8. Seton Armorial John Balliol and wife (from Wikipedia). The Seton
Armorial is owned by Sir Francis Ogilvy of Inverquharity, Bt.
Eleanor Balliol, John Balliol’s sister, married John Comyn who was murdered
by Robert the Bruce in February 1306, in Dumfries.
Another consequence of the Balliol accession was the further rise of the
Comyn family. In 1286, the Comyn’s were already among the most
powerful families in the realm and they themselves had a claim upon the
throne through Donald Ban.[25] However, John Comyn renounced his
claim and threw in his lot with John at the time of the great cause. There
must surely have been reason behind this. The Comyn’s had been the
dominant family under Alexander III and it may well be that they wanted
to ensure this position was kept. Had Bruce won, he may well have
suppressed the Comyns and so it was in their best interest to back Balliol.
Such was the Comyn influence that Young goes as far as to say that in the
Kingdom, the Comyn’s “actually held the reins.”[26] Had the Balliol and
Comyn families not been allied, John’s kingship would have been even
harder than it already was. The price of this alliance was of course Comyn
dominance, a direct consequence of John’s accession.
This partial family tree shows that we can trace a path from Eleanor Balliol to
Joanna Murray:
(2) Eleanor Balliol. She married John II (Lord of Badenoch) Comyn.
23
(a) Euphemia (Cumin) Comyn. She married Andrew
(snr, Sir, of Petty) Moray, 1280's (son of Walter de
Moravia and David Olifard), d. 1297.
[A] Andrew (Jr; Sir of Bothwell) Moray, b. abt 1298,
d. 1338 in Avoch Castle. He married Christian
(Brus) Bruce, aft 12 Oct 1325, b. abt 1260
(daughter of Robert II (Earl of Annandale) de Brus
and Isabel de Clare).
[1] John (Sir, Lord of Bothwell) Moray, d. 1352.
He married Margaret (Countess of Menteith)
Graham, aft 21 Nov 1348, b. bf 1334 in Doune
Castle, Stirlingshire, Scotland (daughter of John
(Sir, 9th earl Menteith) Graham and Mary
(Countess of Menteith) Stewart), d. bt 20 Jul
1372 - 4 May 1380.
[2] Thomas (Sir) Murray, d. 1361 in London. He
married Joanna (Lady of Bothwell) Murray,
b. abt 1339 in Strathearn, Perthshire, Scotland
(daughter of Maurice (Sir, 1st Earl of
Strathearn) Moray and Joanna (Joan) Menteith),
d. Aug 1409.
The Comyn family is suspected of looking after members of Robert Forman’s
familyAfter John Comyn’s murder, we need to look further down the family
tree to find out where the Formans may have gone next. Because there are no
traces of early Formans and their descendants in the northernmost part of
Scotland (ie Sutherland), I suspect a path via Christian Bruce to Sir Andrew
Moray Jr. of Bothwell. From there the path leads, naturally, to Sir Thomas
Murray and his first wife Lady Joanna Murray. Joanna, herself, was the
daughter of Sir Maurice Murray 1st Earl of Strathearn, in Perthshire. Archibald
Douglas was Lady Joanna’s second husband.
Thomas Forman, progenitor of many of the Scottish Formans, is associated
with Archibald Douglas in 1406 and is thought to have come to Archibald
Douglas via his wife Joanna (Lady Bothwell) Murray. A separate paper has
been prepared covering this subject.
Summary:
(1) Robert Forman was the first of his name in Scotland, although there are
earlier instances of the Forman name in England;
(2) It is speculated that Robert came to Scotland with Isabella de Warenne when
she married the future King John Balliol in about 1281.
24
(3) Isabella may have died before her husband was crowned, but Robert Forman
presumably stayed on as a royal servant.
(4) Robert was with King John Balliol when he abdicated at Stracathro on 10
July 1296.
(5) Possibly with the help of the Earl of Surrey, John de Warenne (King John
Balliol's father-in-law), Robert went to York in England where he became a
servant of Isabella de Warenne’s sister, Eleanor, and her husband Henry (1st
Baron Percy of Alnwick) Percy. Ancestors may have returned from England to
Scotland late in the 13th century.
(6) One or more of Robert’s sons may have stayed inScotland with the King’s
sister Eleanor Balliol and her husband John Comyn and then with the Morays.
(7) Many of the Scottish Formans can expect to be descendants of Robert
Forman who signed the Ragman Roll.
In another paper, I speculate that John, Thomas and Adam Forman are the
descendants of Robert’s son (name unknown). They became the ancestors of the
famous Andrew Forman Archishop of St Andrews (1516-1522) and many of
the Scottish Formans.
The next chapter looks, inconclusively, at various possibilities to see if Robert’s
English lineage can be identified.
Earlier Formans?
Wickisource.
FORMAN, SIMON (1552-1611), astrologer and quack-doctor, was fifth
son of the eight children of William Forman and his wife Mary, daughter
of John Foster, by Marianna Hallam. Simon's grandfather, Richard
Forman, was governor of Wilton Abbey before the suppression of the
monasteries, and when the abbey was made over to William Herbert, earl
of Pembroke, held some office about the park. Dying in 1556 Richard was
buried at Foulson, Devonshire. Simon's father, William, born at
Quidhampton, Wiltshire, in 1524, served as page to Lady Willoughby;
married in 1544 Mary Foster, who came from the neighbourhood of
Andover; was deprived of property which he should have inherited from
his father, and died 1 Jan. 1564, being buried at Foulson. Simon's mother
lived to the age of ninety-seven, dying in 1602, and being buried with her
husband. She was vigorous to the last, walking two miles within a fortnight
of her death. Simon, who paid much attention to the genealogy of his
family, claimed descent from some apocryphal Richard Forman, earl of
Devonshire in the time of William I, who is said to have built the church of
St. James at Exeter. A Sir George Forman was created K.B. in 1485, and
25
Sir William Forman, haberdasher, was lord mayor of London in 1538-9.
With both of these Simon declared that he was connected.
Although regarded as apocryphal, perhaps there is some truth, in the claims of
Simon Forman. He is, after all, the only Forman who has publicly stated his
origins. Nowadays the internet provides an easy opportunity to look at the
possibilities his claims raise.
I note that Simon has referred to the earl of Devonshire, but that is a much later
creation that that of Earl of Devon and it is not associated with the church of St
James. However, the Earl of Devon does fit his description.
Richard de Redvers. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
A19th century print of the ruins of Montebourg Abbey in Normandy where
Richard de Redvers was buried in 1107.
Richard de Redvers (sometimes written as Reviers, Rivers, or Ripariis) (fl.
c. 1066 - 8 September 1107) was a Norman nobleman, from Reviers in
Normandy, who may have been one of the companions of William the
Conqueror during the Norman conquest of England from 1066. His origins
are obscure, but after acting as one of the principal supporters of Henry I in
his struggle against his brother Robert Curthose for control of the English
throne, de Redvers was rewarded with estates that made him one of the
richest magnates in the country. He was once thought to have been created
the first Earl of Devon, but this theory is now discounted in favour of his
son Baldwin.
Little is known for certain of the Redvers family before Richard. In his
Baronage of England (1675-6), William Dugdale wrongly identified
Richard de Redvers with Richard the son of Baldwin FitzGilbert (also
known as Baldwin de Meules) who was sheriff of Devon under William
the Conqueror. This error was still being repeated in the late 19th
century.[1] In around 1890 The Complete Peerage advanced the alternative
theory that Richard de Redvers was the son of William de Vernon,[2] but
later research has cast doubt on this too, suggesting that all that can be said
is that his father may have been Baldwin, one of three brothers named
Redvers in Normandy in 1060; the other brothers being William, and
Richard, who died in that year.[3] Similarly nothing is known of Richard's
early life. The Norman poet Wace, writing c.1170, mentions a "sire de
Reviers" as one of those who accompanied William the Conqueror at the
Battle of Hastings,[4] but it is not known if this was Richard de Reviers.
The first clear references to Richard start to appear in the mid 1080s. In the
Domesday Book (1086) he is recorded as holding one manor, that of
Mosterton in Dorset which he may have been given for serving in William
26
the Conqueror's army of 1066.[5] Mortestorne (as Mosterton was then
known) was held by Almer before 1066. It had arable land, a mill, 30 acres
of meadow and a large area of woodland and was valued at £12.[6]
According to Wace, in 1089 de Redvers was in the service of Robert
Curthose, but was allowed to join his younger brother Henry's retinue at
Henry's request. William the Conqueror had bequeathed Normandy to his
eldest son Robert, but Henry had bought parts of it from him—including
the Cotentin where Néhou, the de Redvers principal possession, was
located. Since de Redvers also owned land in the Vexin which was
retained by Robert, he had two lords, and evidently chose to support the
one under whom his main property lay. From 1090 when Henry fell out
with both his older brothers, Richard de Redvers was unswerving in his
support of Henry, so much so that he was mentioned by both Orderic
Vitalis and William of Jumièges in their chronicles.[7]
Richard's manor at Mosterton does not appear in the Redvers family
records after about 1090 and it may therefore have been forfeited due to his
support of Henry against William II.[8] The manor passed to the Blount
family which held it until the end of the 14th century.[6]
When William Rufus died suddenly in 1100 and Henry became king,
Richard de Redvers quickly became one of his most trusted advisers. He
witnessed more than 20 of Henry's charters & royal writs, in several
different places, and sometimes as the only witness. After Richard's death
his loyalty was remarked upon by Anselm of Canterbury.[9]
His continued allegiance resulted in Henry awarding him several large
grants of land: these included the honours of Plympton in Devon,
Carisbrooke on the Isle of Wight and Christchurch in Hampshire (now in
Dorset). In addition to these he still held his estates in Normandy in the
Cotentin (at Néhou) and Vexin (at Vernon) and he had also acquired the
manors of Crowell in Oxfordshire and Woolley in Berkshire on his
marriage.[10]
After the grants from the king, Richard's Devon estates probably consisted
of around 180 Domesday manors, including Tiverton and Honiton, as well
as the boroughs of Exeter and Plympton. The honour of Christchurch
consisted of many widely-scattered manors in several counties. He held
virtually all of the Isle of Wight (the exceptions being two manors held by
the bishop of Winchester),[11] and the island remained in his family until
King Edward I bought it from a dying Isabella de Fortibus in 1293.[12]
According to Robert Bearman, Richard de Redvers can confidently be
rated among the twelve wealthiest barons of the time, with estates worth
well over £750.[13] It is notable, however, that less than one third of the
value of the estates that the king bestowed on him were from ancient
demesne (and hence deprived the king of income); the majority were from
27
escheats, including the Isle of Wight which the king had confiscated after
Roger de Breteul's failed Revolt of the Earls in 1075.[14] It was probably
in the king's interest to have the Isle of Wight under control of someone
trustworthy as it was a prime target for further attack from abroad.[15]
Was Richard the first Earl of Devon?
Some early documents suggest that Richard de Redvers was created the
first Earl of Devon by Henry I. These documents include (1), the
Chronicles of Ford Abbey, which have been shown to be unreliable in
several matters relating to the de Redvers family;[16] (2), the Cartulary of
Twynham, which apparently follows (3), the rubric appended by a later
scribe to a charter issued by Richard himself; and (4), a copy of a charter
issued by Richard's wife after his death, in which it is assumed that the
transcriber has added the word "comitis" ("earl"); significantly the original
charter is lost.[2]
Set against these few documents is the abundant charter evidence that
Richard never styled himself earl, nor did any of his children or
grandchildren call him such, and neither did his wife after his death call
herself Countess.[2] Despite this, for many years the discrepancies caused
disagreement over the numbering of the Devon earls.[17] However since
the early 20th century the matter appears to be settled, and it is now
accepted that the first Earl of Devon was Richard's son, Baldwin.[18].
The following is a family tree assembled from internet sources such as
Wickipedia.
Richard Seigneur de Reviers, d. 8 Sep 1107, buried in Abbey de
Montebourgh. He married Adelise Peverel, b. abt 1075-1080 in
Nottinghamshire, England (daughter of William Peverel and Adeline ?), d. 27
May 1156 in Isle of Wight, Hampshire, England.
I. Baldwin (1st Earl of Devon) (Reviers) de Redvers, b. abt 1102, d. 4 Jun
1155 in Exeter, Devon, England, buried in Quarr Abbey, Ryde, Isle of
Wight, England. He married (1) Adelisa Baluun, b. abt 1105, d. 27 May
abt 1146, buried in Quarr Abbey, Isle of Wight. He married (2) Lucy de
Clare, bet 1151/1155, b. 1126 in Tunbridge, Kent, England (daughter of
Richard (Earl of Hertford) FitzGilbert de Clare and Agnes (Adeliza/Alice of
Chester) de Mechines), d. aft 4 Jun 1155.
A. Richard (2nd Earl of Devon) de Redvers, (son of Baldwin (1st Earl of
Devon) (Reviers) de Redvers and Adelisa Baluun) d. 27 Apr 1162,
buried in Christ Church, Twynham, England. He married Denise (of
Cornwall) de Dunstanville, 1150 (daughter of Reynold (Earl of
Cornwall) FitzRoy and Beatrice FitzWilliam).
28
1. Baldwin (3rd Earl Devon, Lord Isle Wight, Earl Cornwall) de
Redvers, d. 10 or 28 May 1188. He married Denise de Déols.
2. Richard (3rd Earl of Devon, Lord Isle Wight) de Redvers, d. 19
Aug 1193 or bef. He married Emma Gieva ?.
B. Hawise de (Reviers) Redvers, (daughter of Baldwin (1st Earl of Devon)
(Reviers) de Redvers and Adelisa Baluun) d. 1215. She married Robert
FitzRobert, 1147 (son of Robert (Earl of Gloucester) FitzRoy and His
mistress).
C. Henry de Redvers, (son of Baldwin (1st Earl of Devon) (Reviers) de
Redvers and Adelisa Baluun) buried in Quarr Abbey.
D. William de Vernon (5th Earl of Devon) de Redvers, (son of Baldwin
(1st Earl of Devon) (Reviers) de Redvers and Adelisa Baluun) d. 8 or 10
Dec 1217, buried in Christ Church, Twynham, England. He married
Mabel de Beaumont, aft 1 May 1204 (daughter of Robert (1st Earl
Leicester, Count de Meulan) de Beaumont and Matilda of Cornwall).
1. Mary (de Vernon) de Redvers. She married (1) Pierre des Preaux.
She married (2) Robert (of Okehampton) de Courtenay.
2. Joan (de Vernon) de Redvers, d. aft 1233. She married William
Briwere (son of William Briwere and Beatrice des Vaux).
3. Baldwin 3rd de Redvers, b. aft 28 Apr 1200, d. 1 Sep 1216. He
married Margaret FitzGerold (daughter of Warin FitzGerold and
Alice de Curcy).
a. Baldwin 4th (de Riparis, 6th Earl of Devon, ?Wight) de
Redvers, b. 1216/17, d. 15 Feb 1245, buried in Breamore Priory,
Hampshire. He married Amicia de Clare, 1226?, b. 6 Jun 1220
(daughter of Gilbert (7th Earl Clare; Earl Gloucester and 5th
Hartford) de Clare and Isabel (of Pembroke) Marshal).
(A) Baldwin 5th (7th Earl of Devon) de Redvers, b. 1235, d.
1262 in Paris, France. He married Avoie Marguerite de
Savoie, 1257 (daughter of Thomas Compte de Savoie and His
mistress), d. 12 Feb 1286.
(1) John de Redvers, b. 1258, d. 1262.
(B) Isabellam (Albermarliae) de Redvers, b. abt 1238, d. 1293.
She married William (Earl of Albemarle) de Fortibus,
1257.
(1) Aveline de Fortibus. She married Edmund (Earl of
Lancaster) Crouchback, 1269.
II. William de Vernon, b. 1095 in Shipbrook, Northwich, Cheshire, England,
d. 1174 in Shipbrook, Northwich, Cheshire, England. He married Lucy de
Tancarville.
A. Richard de Vernon. He married Elizabeth ?.
B. Hugh de Vernon, b. 1113 in Shipbrook, Northwich, Cheshire, England,
d. 1135. He married Heiress de Balliot, 1173 in Cheshire, England, b.
29
1145 in Gwynedd, Wales (daughter of Reginald de Balliot), d. 1190 in
Y. Wales. (Note death in 1135 and marriage in 1173 not compatible).
1. Warin de Vernon, b. 1135 in Shipbrook, Northwich, Cheshire,
England, d. 1190. He married ? de Baliol, b. 1137 in Bidwell,
Northamptonshire, England (daughter of Reginald de Balliot), d.
1165.
a. Richard de Vernon, b. 1155 in Shipbrook, Northwich, Cheshire,
England, d. 1190. He married Avice De Avenel.
(A) Warin De Vernon, b. 1178 in Shipbrook, Northwich,
Cheshire, England, d. 1248 in East Broughton, England. He
married Auda De Malbank, b. abt 1200.
(1) Warine De Vernon, b. abt 1220 in Shipbrook, Cheshire,
England, d. abt 1252. He married Margaret De
Anderville.
(2) Nicholas De Vernon, d. abt 1290.
(3) Ralph (Rector of Hanwell) De Vernon, b. 1221 in
Shipbrook, Northwich, Cheshire, Enfgland, d. 1270 in
Rector Hanwell, Cheshire, England. He married (1)
Cecilia Crew. He married (2) Maude Grosvenor, b. abt
1231.
(a) Ralph (7th Baron) De Vernon, (son of Ralph (Rector
of Hanwell) De Vernon and Cecilia Crew) b. abt 1241
in Shipbrook, Cheshire, England?, d. aft Jul 1325. He
married Mary Dacre.
(b) Ralph Vernon, (son of Ralph (Rector of Hanwell) De
Vernon and Maude Grosvenor) b. 1251 in Shipbrook,
Cheshire, England, d. 1325 in Bostock, Cheshire,
England. He married Mary De Acre.
[A] Roesia De Vernon, b. 1289 in Shipbrook,
Norwich, Cheshire, England, d. 1322 in Bostock,
Cheshire, England. She married (1) William
Brereton, b. 1290. She married (2) Thomas De
Davenport.
[1] William Brereton, (son of William Brereton
and Roesia De Vernon) b. 1290 in Brereton,
Cheshire, England, d. 1342 in London,
Middlesex, England.
(B) William (Sir, High Sherrif Lancashire etc) De Vernon, b.
bef 1230. He married Margery De Stokeport.
(1) Richard (Sir) De Vernon, b. abt 1240. He married
Margaret De Vipont.
(2) Walter De Vernon.
b. Margaret De Vernon.
30
III. Robert de Vernon.
IV. Hawise de Vernon. She married William de Roumare (son of Roger (de
Roumare) FitzGerold and Lucy ?).
The de Baliol ancestors marked in red look promising. They are tentatively
located on the following de Balliol family tree.
Guy (Baron of Bywell, Northumberland) de Baliol.
I. Bernard (I) Reginald De Baliol, b. abt 1105 in Picardie, d. 1167. He
married Matilda ?.
A. Reginald de Balliot, b. 1175, d. in Y.
1. Heiress de Balliot, b. 1145 in Gwynedd, Wales, d. 1190 in Y. Wales.
She married Hugh de Vernon, 1173 in Cheshire, England, b. 1113 in
Shipbrook, Northwich, Cheshire, England (son of William de Vernon
and Lucy de Tancarville), d. 1135.
a. Warin de Vernon, b. 1135 in Shipbrook, Northwich, Cheshire,
England, d. 1190. He married ? de Baliol, b. 1137 in Bidwell,
Northamptonshire, England (daughter of Reginald de Balliot), d.
1165.
2. ? de Baliol, b. 1137 in Bidwell, Northamptonshire, England, d. 1165.
She married Warin de Vernon, b. 1135 in Shipbrook, Northwich,
Cheshire, England (son of Hugh de Vernon and Heiress de Balliot),
d. 1190.
B. Bernard (II) (2nd Baron Bywell) de Baliol, b. abt 1137, d. by 1194. He
married Agnes de Picquigny.
C. Eustace de Balliol.
1. Ingleram de Balliol. He married heiress of Sir Walter Buckley.
a. Hugh (Lord of Harcourt & Barnard Castle) de Balliol. He
married Ann ?.
(A) John (Sir, Lord of Barnard Castle) de Balliol, d. 1269. He
married Devorguilla (Countess of Huntingdon etc) of
Galloway (daughter of Allan (Lord of Galloway) de
Galloway and Margaret le Scot).
(1) John (King of Scotland, 1292-1296) Balliol, b. abt 1240
in Barnard Castle, d. 25 Nov 1314. He married Isabella
de Warenne, 1281 (daughter of John (6th Earl of Surrey)
de Warenne and Alice de Lusignan).
(a) Edward Balliol, b. abt 1283, d. abt 1367 in Wheatley,
Doncaster, England. He married Margaret of
Taranto.
(2) Eleanor Balliol. She married John II (Lord of
Badenoch) Comyn.
31
(a) Euphemia (Cumin) Comyn. She married Andrew
(snr, Sir, of Petty) Moray, 1280's (son of Walter de
Moravia and David Olifard), d. 1297.
[A] Andrew (Jr; Sir of Bothwell) Moray, b. abt 1298,
d. 1338 in Avoch Castle. He married Christian
(Brus) Bruce, aft 12 Oct 1325, b. abt 1260
(daughter of Robert II (Earl of Annandale) de Brus
and Isabel de Clare).
[1] John (Sir, Lord of Bothwell) Moray, d. 1352.
He married Margaret (Countess of Menteith)
Graham, aft 21 Nov 1348, b. bf 1334 in Doune
Castle, Stirlingshire, Scotland (daughter of John
(Sir, 9th earl Menteith) Graham and Mary
(Countess of Menteith) Stewart), d. bt 20 Jul
1372 - 4 May 1380.
[2] Thomas (Sir) Murray, d. 1361 in London. He
married Joanna (Lady of Bothwell) Murray,
b. abt 1339 in Strathearn, Perthshire, Scotland
(daughter of Maurice (Sir, 1st Earl of
Strathearn) Moray and Joanna (Joan) Menteith),
d. Aug 1409.
(b) John (Lord of Badenoch) III Comyn, d. 10 Feb 1306
in Murdered by Bruce, Dumfries, Scotland. He
married Joan de Valence (daughter of William (1st
Earl of Pembroke) de Valence and Joan de
Munchensi).
[A] Elizabeth Comyn, b. 1 Nov 1299, d. 20 Nov 1372.
She married Richard (Lord Talbot) Talbot.
b. Henry de Balliol.
c. Eustace de Balliol.
d. Bernard de Balliol. He married Agnes ?.
These two family trees provide a tenuous link from the de Vernons to King John
Balliol, marked in red. As shown in the tree, the Balliol ladies were third
cousins thrice removed of King John Balliol. The second tree are also shows the
link from Eleanor Balliol to the Comyns and Joanna Murray. There are,
however, other connections of interest in the two following family trees.
The Mabel de Beaumont who married William de Vernon, 5th Earl of Devon,
was (most likely) the daughter of Robert de Beaumont, 1st Earl Leicester, Count
de Meulan, by his first wife, Matilda of Cornwall.
THE BATTLE ABBEY ROLL. WITH SOME ACCOUNT OF THE NORMAN
LINEAGES. IN THREE VOLUMES. VOL. I.
32
He accompanied William the Conqueror to England in 1066, where his
service earned him more than 91 lordships and manors. When his mother
died in 1081, Robert inherited the title of Count of Meulan in Normandy,
also the title of Viscount Ivry and Lord of Norton. He did homage to Philip
I of France for these estates and sat as French Peer in the Parliament held
at Poissy.
At the Battle of Hastings Robert was appointed leader of the infantry on
the right wing of the army.
His end was miserable. Left childless by his first wife, he chose, when he
was between fifty and sixty, a new bride in the first bloom of youth, Isabel
(or Elizabeth) de Vermandois, and became the happy father of a large
family. "But in the height of his glory, another Earl" (William de
Warreune) "seduced his wife by every intrigue and artifice;" and she
deserted her old husband for his young rival. He never recovered the blow;
but retired, "abandoned to sorrow and troubled in mind," to the Abbey of
Preaux, where he took the monastic habit shortly before his death in 1118.
He was buried among his brethren, but his heart was preserved in salt, and
carried to Brackley, a monastery that he had founded in Northamptonshire.
The frail Isabel had borne him three sons, and four, if not five, daughters;
of whom the eldest, Isabel, became one of the many mistresses of Henry I.,
and afterwards married Gilbert Earl of Pembroke. The two first-born sons
were twins; Waleran, the elder, succeeded as Earl of Mellent; with all his
father's domains in France and Normandy, and Robert, called Le Bossu,
was Earl of Leicester. Hugh, the youngest brother, received from King
Stephen the Earldom of Bedford, "with the Daughter of Milo de
Beauchamp, upon the expulsion of Milo; Being a person remiss and
negligent himself, and committing the custody of that Castle to Milo, he
fell from the dignity of an Earl, to the state of a Knight; and, in the end to
miserable poverty." He was dubbed "the Pauper." Waleran's was a troubled
and turbulent life. He rebelled against Henry I., who burnt his towns of
Brienne and Pont Audemer, captured both castles—the latter after seven
weeks' siege—took him prisoner, and kept him in durance for five years.
Then we find him in arms for King Stephen, and betrothed to his little
daughter of two years old; next, signed with the cross as a pilgrim to
Jerusalem; on his return, out of favour with the King, who fell in dislike
with him," and in 1149; "took from him by assault the city of Worcester
(which he had given him) and reduced it to ashes." This is the last we hear
of him in England.
THE BATTLE ABBEY ROLL. WITH SOME ACCOUNT OF THE NORMAN
LINEAGES. IN THREE VOLUMES.--VOL. III. Riuers:
33
Baldwin, the second Earl, took part very strongly with the Empress Maud,
having, as is alleged, a personal quarrel with Stephen, who had refused to
confer upon him some coveted honour, and spent "much treasure" in
fortifying Exeter Castle and the Isle of Wight against him. But the King,
marching westwards with a force partly composed of Flemish auxiliaries,
besieged and captured his castle, seized his island, and expelled him and
his wife and children from the country. Nevertheless, we find him in later
life reinstated in his Earldom. He founded three religious houses,
Brummore Abbey in Wiltshire, Twineham Priory, and Quarr Abbey in the
Isle of Wight, where he lies buried. His son Richard, who succeeded him,
and 14 Hen. II. certified to eighty-nine knights' fees, was the father of two
Earls that died s. p., and the title and inheritance reverted to their uncle
William de Vernon. He was one of the four Earls that carried the silken
canopy at Coeur de Lion's second coronation, being then styled Earl of the
Isle of Wight; and married Mabel de Beaumont, daughter of Robert Earl of
Mellent; by whom he had one son, Baldwin, and two daughters; Mary, the
wife of Robert de Courtenay, Baron of Oakhampton, and Joan, first
married to William Briwere, and then to Hubert de Burgh, the King's
chamberlain. She brought her second husband Christ Church and the whole
Isle of Wight in marriage, but had no children. The son died before his
father, leaving a little boy--another Baldwin--to succeed as seventh Earl.
His wife, Margaret Fitz Gerald, had been a considerable heiress; and in her
widowhood was, according to Matthew Paris, "constrained by King John,
the Tyrant, who stuck at no wicked act, to marry that impious, ignoble, and
base-conditioned man, Falk de Breant, against her Will." After his
grandfather's death in 1216, her little son was in ward to this Fulk, till Fulk
himself died in 1224; and two years afterwards, Gilbert de Clare Earl of
Gloucester paid the King a fine of two thousand marks "for leave to marry
his eldest daughter to this young Earl." Accordingly, in 1239, when the
King was keeping Christmas at Winchester, Baldwin was girt by him with
the sword of knighthood, formally invested with the Earldom of Wight,
and married to Amicia de Clare. "But about five years only after," says
Dugdale, "on the morrow of St. Valentine's Day, he died in the flower of
his youth, leaving Baldwin his Heir very young." There were also two
daughters.
It may not be relevant, but here is a partial compilation of the Beaumont family
tree. Notice that this tree includes Mabel de Beaumont who married William
de Redvers ,5th Earl of Devon, and Amicia de Clare who married Baldwin de
Redvers, 6th Earl of Devon.Neither of these ladies however, leads us to the usual
suspects who, coincidentally, happen to occur in the tree.
34
Roger de Beaumont, b. abt 1010 in Pont-Ademer, France, d. 1090 in Abbey
de Pre'aux, Pontaudemer, Normandy. He married Adeline de Meulan, 1040, b.
abt 1014 in of Pontaudemer, Normandy, France, d. 8 Apr 1081.
I. Robert (1st Earl Leicester, Count de Meulan) de Beaumont, b. 10401050, d. 5 Jun 1118 in Palestine. He married Elizabeth of Vermandois,
1096, b. abt 1085 (daughter of Hugh (Count of Vermandois) Magnus and
Adelaide de Cleremont), d. 13 Feb 1131 in England?.
A. Waleran IV (Count of Meulan) de Beaumont, b. 1104 in Meulan, Isle
de France, d. 10 Apr 1166 in Normandy, France. He married Agnes de
Montfort, abt 1140, b. 1122, d. 1181.
1. Robert (Count of Meulan) de Beaumont, b. abt 1141, d. Oct 1207
in Palestine. He married Matilda (or Mabel, of Cornwall) Fitz Roy
(daughter of Reginald (Earl of Cornwall) Fitz Roy and Mabel Fitz
Richard).
a. Mabel (Maud) de Beaumont, b. abt 1166 in Dunstanville Kent,
England. She married William de Vernon (5th Earl of Devon)
de Redvers, aft 1 May 1204 in France (son of Baldwin (1st Earl
of Devon) (Reviers) de Redvers and Adelisa Baluun), d. 8 or 10
Dec 1217, buried in Christ Church, Twynham, England.
Truncated here, see first tree for continuation.
2. Isabel of Meulan de Beaumont, b. abt 1144 in of Meulan,
Normandy, France. She married Maurice de Craon, abt 1156.
B. Robert (2nd Earl Leicester) de Beaumont, b. 1104. He married ?
Fitzosbern.
C. Emma de Beaumont, b. 1102.
D. Hugh (1st Earl Bedford) de Beaumont, b. abt 1106.
E. Adeline de Beaumont, b. abt 1107.
F. Maud de Beaumont, b. abt 1111. She married William Lovel.
G. Isabel de Beaumont. She married Gilbert (1st Earl Pembroke) de
Clare, 1130, b. abt 1085 (son of Gilbert de Clare and Adeliza de
Clermont), d. 6 Jan 1147-48.
1. Richard (2nd Earl Pembroke) de Clare, b. 1130 in Tonbridge,
Kent, England, d. 20 April 1776 in Dublin, Ireland. He married
Aoife (of Leinster) MacMurrough.
a. Isabel de Clare, b. abt 1172 in Ireland, d. 1220 in
Pembrokeshire, Wales. She married William (Marshal of
England, 1st Earl of Pembroke) Marshal, Aug 1189, b. abt
1146 (son of John (Marshal of England) Fitz Gilbert and Sibylla
(of Salisbury) ?), d. 14 May 1219 in Caversham, England.
(A) William (Marshal of England, 2nd Earl Pembroke)
Marshal, b. abt 1190/91 in Normandy, d. 6 Apr 1231. He
married (1) Eleanor (dau of King John) Plantagenet, 23
Apr 1224, b. abt 1215 (daughter of John (King of) England
35
and Isabella (widow of John, King of England) of
Angouleme). He married (2) Alice de Bethune, Sep 1214
(daughter of Baldwin de Bethune).
(B) Richard (Marshal of England, 3rd Earl Pembroke)
Marshal, b. 1191, d. 16 Apr 1234. He married Gervase le
Dinant.
(C) Maude Marshal, b. 1194, d. 27 Mar5 1248. She married (1)
Hugh (3rd Earl Norfolk) Bigod, 1206, d. 1225. She married
(2) William (5th Earl Surrrey) de Warenne (son of
Hammelin (barstard of Geoffrey of Anjou) Plantagenet and
Isabel (Countess of Surrey) de Warenne), d. 1240. She
married (3) Walter de Dunstanville.
(1) Roger Bigod, (son of Hugh (3rd Earl Norfolk) Bigod and
Maude Marshal). He married Isabel (Sister of Alexander)
?.
(2) John (6th Earl of Surrey) de Warenne, (son of William
(5th Earl Surrrey) de Warenne and Maude Marshal) b.
1231, d. 29 Sep 1304. He married Alice de Lusignan, b.
1224 (daughter of Hugh X de Lusignan and Isabella
(widow of John, King of England) of Angouleme).
(a) Eleanor de Warenne. She married Henry (1st Baron
Percy of Alnwick) Percy, 8 Sep 1268.
[A] Henry de Percy.
(b) Isabella de Warenne. She married John (King of
Scotland, 1292-1296) Balliol, 1281, b. abt 1240 in
Barnard Castle (son of John (Sir, Lord of Barnard
Castle) de Balliol and Devorguilla (Countess of
Huntingdon etc) of Galloway), d. 25 Nov 1314.
[A] Edward Balliol, b. abt 1283, d. abt 1367 in
Wheatley, Doncaster, England. He married
Margaret of Taranto.
(c) William de Warenne, d. 15 Dec 1286. He married
Joan de Vere (daughter of Robert (5th Earl Oxford) de
Vere).
[A] John (7th Earl of Surrey) de Warenne, b. 30 Jun
1286, d. Jun 1347.
[B] Alice de Warenne. She married Edmund (9th
Earl of Arundel) FitzAllan, 1305 in Oxford, b. 1
May 1285 (son of Richard (Lord of Clun &
Oswestry, 8th Earl Arundel (Sussex)) FitzAlan and
Alasia di Saluzzo), d. 17 Nov 1326 in Executed.
36
(3) Isabella de Warenne, (daughter of William (5th Earl
Surrrey) de Warenne and Maude Marshal). She married
Hugh (Earl of Sussex) de Albini.
(D) Gilbert (4th Earl Pembroke) Marshal, b. 1197, d. 27 Jun
1241 in Ware. He married (1) Margaret de Lanvallei, Sep
1230. He married (2) Margaret (sister to Alexander II,
Scotland) ?, Aug 1235, b. 1197 (daughter of William I the
Lion King of Scotland and Ermengarde of Beaumont), d. 27
Jun 1241. He married (3) Unknown mistress.
(1) Isabel Marshal, (daughter of Gilbert (4th Earl Pembroke)
Marshal and Unknown mistress). She married Rhys ap
Maeldon Fychan.
(E) Walter (5th Earl Pembroke) Marshal, b. 1199, d. 24 Nov
1245. He married Margaret (Countess of Lincoln) de
Quincy.
(F) Isabel (of Pembroke) Marshal, b. 9 Oct 1200, d. 17 Jan
1240. She married (1) Gilbert (7th Earl Clare; Earl
Gloucester and 5th Hartford) de Clare, 9 Oct 1217. She
married (2) Richard Earl of Cornwall, ? March 1231 (son of
John (King of) England and Isabella (widow of John, King of
England) of Angouleme).
(1) Isabel de Clare, (daughter of Gilbert (7th Earl Clare; Earl
Gloucester and 5th Hartford) de Clare and Isabel (of
Pembroke) Marshal). She married Robert II (Earl of
Annandale) de Brus (son of Robert 1 (Earl Carrick; King,
the) Bruce and Isabella of Mar).
(a) Christian (Brus) Bruce, b. abt 1260. She married
Andrew (Jr; Sir of Bothwell) Moray, aft 12 Oct
1325, b. abt 1298 (son of Andrew (snr, Sir, of Petty)
Moray and Euphemia (Cumin) Comyn), d. 1338 in
Avoch Castle.
[A] John (Sir, Lord of Bothwell) Moray, d. 1352. He
married Margaret (Countess of Menteith)
Graham, aft 21 Nov 1348, b. bf 1334 in Doune
Castle, Stirlingshire, Scotland (daughter of John
(Sir, 9th earl Menteith) Graham and Mary
(Countess of Menteith) Stewart), d. bt 20 Jul 1372 4 May 1380.
[B] Thomas (Sir) Murray, d. 1361 in London. He
married Joanna (Lady of Bothwell) Murray, b.
abt 1339 in Strathearn, Perthshire, Scotland
(daughter of Maurice (Sir, 1st Earl of Strathearn)
Moray and Joanna (Joan) Menteith), d. Aug 1409.
37
(2) Amicia de Clare, (daughter of Gilbert (7th Earl Clare;
Earl Gloucester and 5th Hartford) de Clare and Isabel (of
Pembroke) Marshal) b. 6 Jun 1220. She married Baldwin
4th (de Riparis, 6th Earl of Devon, ?Wight) de
Redvers, 1226?, b. 1216/17 (son of Baldwin 3rd de
Redvers and Margaret FitzGerold), d. 15 Feb 1245, buried
in Breamore Priory, Hampshire.
Truncated here. See first tree for continuation.
(G) Sibyl Marshal, b. 1201, d. 27 Apr 1245. She married
William (5th Earl Derby) de Ferrers.
(H) Eve Marshal, b. 1203, d. 1246. She married William de
(Lord of Abergavenny) Braose.
(I) Anselm (6th Earl Pembroke) Marshal, b. 1208, d. 22 Dec
1245. He married Maude de Bohun (daughter of Humphrey
(2nd Earl Hereford) de Bohun).
(J) Johanna (Joan) Marshal, b. 1210, d. aft 1234. She married
Warin (Lord of Swanscombe) de Munchensi, aft 1220, d.
1255.
(1) John de Munchensi, d. 1247.
(2) William de Munchensi, d. 1287.
(3) Joan de Munchensi, d. 1307. She married William (1st
Earl of Pembroke) de Valence, b. late 1220's (son of
Hugh X de Lusignan and Isabella (widow of John, King of
England) of Angouleme), d. 13 Jun 1296 in Bayonne,
buried in Westminster Abbey.
(a) Joan de Valence. She married John (Lord of
Badenoch) III Comyn (son of John II (Lord of
Badenoch) Comyn and Eleanor Balliol), d. 10 Feb
1306 in Murdered by Bruce, Dumfries, Scotland.
[A] Elizabeth Comyn, b. 1 Nov 1299, d. 20 Nov 1372.
She married Richard (Lord Talbot) Talbot.
b. Gilbert (3rd Earl Pembroke) de Clare, b. 1173, d. 1185.
II. Henry (1st Earl Warwick) de Beaumont, b. abt 1048, d. 20 Jun 1119-23.
He married Marguerite du Perche, by 1100.
It seems fitting to conclude with another contribution from Simon, even though
its truth is doubtful.
Barbara Howard Traister, 2011. The notorious astrological physician of
London: works and days of Simon Forman.
Forman prepared a number of genealogies and illustrated coats of arms for
the Forman family (figure 2). Intent on proving his family’s importance,
Forman traced it back to various periods of history. For example,
Conradus, emporer of Rome (ca. 1028, according to Forman), bestowed on
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a Norman captain in his army “Monsier Ricardus Andisson” the name
Forman because the latter “was always the foremost man in everie
assaulte” and “for that he was for every man more then for him selfe.” An
alternative founding narrative for the family claimed that the first of the
Formans was “a Scot named William forsan errelle of Milton castell in
Cumberland . . . . . in the daies of Henrie kinge of Scotes who changed his
name and called him Forman for his valiantnes and forwardnes in the
warrs”.
I presume “forsan” is a surname. I have been unable to find a Henry King of
Scots, but there was a Prince Henry. Henry, Earl of Northumbria.
From Wikipedia.
Henry of Scotland (Eanric mac Dabíd, 1114 – 12 June 1152) was a
Prince of Scotland, heir-apparent to the Kingdom of Alba. He was also the
3rd Earl of Northumberland and the 3rd Earl of the Honour of
Huntingdon and Northampton.
He was the son of King David I of Scotland and Maud, 2nd Countess of
Huntingdon. His maternal grandparents were Waltheof, Earl of
Northumbria and Huntingdon, (beheaded 1075) and his spouse Judith of
Lens.
Henry was named after his uncle, King Henry I of England, who had
married his paternal aunt Edith of Scotland (the name Edith gallicised as
Matilda after becoming Queen consort in 1100). He had three sons, two of
whom became King of Scotland, and a third whose descendants were to
prove critical in the later days of the Scottish royal house. He also had
three daughters.
His eldest son became King of Scots as Malcolm IV in 1153. Henry's
second son became king in 1165 on the death of his brother, reigning as
William I. Both in their turn inherited the title of Earl of Huntingdon. His
third son, David also became Earl of Huntingdon. It is from the 8th Earl
that all Kings of Scotland after Margaret, Maid of Norway claim descent.
On Henry's death, the Earldom passed to his half-brother Simon II de
Senlis.
Henry married Ada de Warenne, the daughter of William de Warenne, 2nd
Earl of Surrey (died 1138), and Elizabeth of Vermandois, daughter of
Hugh of Vermandois, The Great.
Elizabeth of Vermandois can be found near the beginning of the preceeding
family tree as the wife of Robert de Beaumont. As already noted, she was
seduced by and then married to William de Warennne the second earl of Surrey.
End.
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