Starry Bull Chat 5 Feb 2015
Chat Theme: Aphrodite in Starry Bull Cultus and Myth
9:35 EST
Erin Fortner: SO LET'S TALK ABOUT BULLS
eupheme-butterfly: BULLS. They have horns and go moo
Markos Gage: I'm doing some re-reading of basic of Aphrodite. She along with many goddesses is one of
the few that I really don't connect with.
bleh that statement doesnt make much sense does it?
eupheme-butterfly: I've noticed the same thing. I think that the connection is easier or more difficult
depending on how one "finds" the Starry Bull tradition.
I've noticed the same thing with Ariadne, and both of Them have similar roles and symbols in
this tradition.
Erin Fortner: I noticed it too--and it's a lack of connection so profound, to me, that when I ordered my
prayer beads (which should get here soon!), I have four beads for gods (D, Hades, Hermes, and
Apollo), Goddesses (Hekate, Melinoe, Persephone, and Ariadne), and one each for heroes and
heroines.
I actually REPLACED Aphrodite with Ariadne, because I work so much more closely with Ariadne.
Markos Gage: yeah, I've felt a little more connection with Ariadne, but throughout the years Aphrodite
never did much with me... donno, * shrugs * gods are like that.
eupheme-butterfly: What I've noticed for myself is that often, if I feel a lack of connection to a Deity, it's
because I've not found my personal point of connection to that Deity. So a good place to start
might be our associations with Aphrodite; what we know about Her.
And I can skim Theoi.com for some primary sources on her cultus and how it may have
intersected with that of Dionysos. I know that D. and Venus are heavily connected in Italy, and
in later medieval romances.
Erin Fortner: That's exactly why I suggested this topic, actually. What I "know" of her is, essentially, the
start of the trojan war. And in that particular story, she came off as very... petty?
Markos Gage: Well in regards to her cthronic side there is the myth of Adonis which I like, as her being
the counterpart of Peresphone.
eupheme-butterfly: As gods do in Homeric stories.
Yeah, I was going to mention Adonis for that exact reason.
Erin Fortner: THat 'pettiness' threw me off, and I never heard anything else about her. I'm not
particularly 'girly,' I don't do makeup or anything, so I felt like I never really resonated with her
sphere.
Markos Gage: Adonis also plays heavy with Dionysian themes. (Actually surpised there isnt much
mention on him from Sannion. Well none that I remember)
Amanda Morris: actually, I burn pine incense for the Dionysian heroes because of Adonis associations...
Erin Fortner: (let me say that I know she's likely NOT petty: those stories were written by men who, let's
face it, treated the goddesses like playthings of the gods, and I don't have an incredibly high
opinion of Homer for that reason. So I'm open to getting to know her.)
eupheme-butterfly: (Plus I love how other ancient authors, like Flavius Philostratus, have their
characters say "um Homer kind of makes all the Gods look bad)
Maybe we can talk about Adonis. There are some very similar themes with Dionysian myths,
there, and Adonis' mysteries were also those of death and rebirth.
Markos Gage: Yeah she comes off as being an uncontrolable slut in myth. But if you switch it around it is
very romantic.
eupheme-butterfly: Hey, let's not slut-shame here, please
Markos Gage: I hope you know what I mean.
eupheme-butterfly: I do. Capricious, we could say
Markos Gage: (I'm just going to list some other stuff thats on my mind.)
She is also the great great? grand mother of Dionysos in the Cadmus line, from Harmonia.
eupheme-butterfly: Yep, that's true
Markos Gage: Her union with Ares plays a massive chain reaction in Thebes which leads to the cities
demise.
eupheme-butterfly: Harmonia being the daughter of Aphrodite and Ares, and the wife of Kadmos
Erin Fortner: I also for some reason was under the impression that Aphrodite frowned on same-sex
relationships. But I don't know why I thought that.
eupheme-butterfly: No clue.
Markos Gage: I donno about that. Eros is often related to homosexuallity I think though.
(brb I need tea)
eupheme-butterfly: So we have a few trails we can go down--the traditions surrounding Aphrodite and
Adonis; the Theban cycle and its relationship to Dionysos and Aphrodite; and Aphrodite's role in
everyday life.
Erin Fortner: Can I get a brief summary of the first two?
I'm actually not familiar with Adonis beyond some superficial details.
eupheme-butterfly: Same. I know that, in a fashion similar to Persephone, he spent half the year in the
Underworld as Persephone's beloved, and the other half in the world of the Olympians with
Aphrodite.
Amanda Morris: so, he's a beautiful youth, and both Aphrodite and Persephone call in love with him,
right? and he somehow ends up dying and the two goddesses share him. I think his body is
turned into a pine tree? I could totally be making this up, though
Markos Gage: no thats the basics.
eupheme-butterfly: I'm checking Theoi right now
Markos Gage: In some versions the two goddess have at it with each other and agree to share after an
intervetion. However he is killed by a boar (sent by Persephone?) and she keeps him forever.
Amanda Morris: how interesting!
eupheme-butterfly: In other versions, Aphrodite takes him to Persephone for safekeeping while he's still
an infant, because of some, uh, parenting issues.
(His mother was a tree at the time she gave birth to him.)
Amanda Morris: wait, is there also incest in this story?
eupheme-butterfly: Yes.
Erin Fortner: Wonder how Hades feels about Persephone having a lover, after the whole Menthe thing.
(then again, Persephone is badass enough that I don't think many are willing to disagree with
her...)
eupheme-butterfly: His mother, Smyrna (or Myrrha), was cursed by Aphrodite to fall in love with her
own father. They do the do while he's drunk, and when he sobers up he chases after her to kill
her. She prays to the Gods to make her invisible, and they turn her in to a myrrh tree.
Nine months later, the tree splits and there's newborn Adonis.
Amanda Morris: do we know why she was cursed in the first place?
eupheme-butterfly: So Aphrodite takes the infant to Persephone (foster-mother of all, I remember
reading somewhere...unable to have children with Her husband, but willing to care for all
children) for safekeeping.
Uhhh lemme check
This is all from Pseudo-Apollodorus, by the way
Oh. Same as Hippolytos
She didn't worship Aphrodite
Amanda Morris: well, let that be a lesson to us all ^_Erin Fortner: ...hint taken.
eupheme-butterfly: But there were a LOT of traditions surrounding Adonis. I know that the Orphic
Hymn associates Him with the moon, and its cycle of light and dark (life and death)
10:00 EST
eupheme-butterfly: Including, apparently, everyone wanting a piece of that
(He apparently bottomed for Herakles and Apollon)
Markos Gage: (Man I'm rusty on some of these myths. I don't think I've re-read them since my teen
years.) The Adonis myth is connected with the death-rebirth cycle. I know people like Robert
Graves use this myth as proof of the holy prince that was killed by the matriarch every year
theory. (Mostly considered baseless now.)
Who wouldnt bottom for those two?
eupheme-butterfly: ^
Erin Fortner: Adonis was supposed to be the most gorgeous man. Ever. For all time.
...even my incredibly straight boyfriend is willing to go, "Damn, dude's hot." Did we expect the
dudes around Adoni to act any differently? :P
...Adoni. Apparently he's plural now.
Amanda Morris: lol
Markos Gage: hahah.
eupheme-butterfly: Whooaaaaaaah just saw something interesting
.../interesting/
In one version of the story, Aphrodite and Persephone ask Zeus to judge which of Them should
get to "keep" Adonis
And the decision is, split the time
But Aphrodite is so angry that She chooses to stir up a group of mortal women into a violent
frenzy
These women are...drumroll please...
The Thracian mainades, who, in this frenzy, tear Orpheus apart.
Markos Gage: awesome!
Erin Fortner: -mic dropAmanda Morris: damn son
Markos Gage: Where do we find this text?
eupheme-butterfly: (Of course, what did Orpheus try to do? Bring his love back from the dead.)
So there's a theme of love that transcends death even while bereaved by it
And considering how many times and in how many ways Dionysos appears to die, over and over
again, Aphrodite would /need/ to have a strong, even possessive, love
(And we are the most possessive when things have been, or are about to be, taken fron us)
Erin Fortner: Did Aphrodite ever interact directly with D, in stories we know of? Or was it all tangental
connections like this?
eupheme-butterfly: Yes, they are the parents of Priapos.
Markos Gage: aye they are lovers.
Erin Fortner: .........that. Makes sense.
Markos Gage: Iakkhos, the mysteries god is sometimes their love child too.
eupheme-butterfly: Yes!
Erin Fortner: isn't Iakkhos one of the names of D?
Markos Gage: kinda... its a different god, the guide in the mysteries.
eupheme-butterfly: Iakkhos is a strange case--His name is related to the Mysteries, and at times He's His
own entity, but in other situations, He's associated with or syncretized with Hermes or Dionysos
Sannion described it to me once like this: Iakkhos is both a God and a mask that other Gods can
wear.
(And our Gods like Them some masks.)
Markos Gage: I like that description.
eupheme-butterfly: And we have a whole holiday dedicated to the love affair of Dionysos and
Aphrodite--the Maiuma, which is on 2 May
Erin Fortner: ...did D have a love affair with Persephone, too?
(I really wouldn't be surprised)
eupheme-butterfly: Let me check. It's alluded to in some of the stuff Sannion's written, but in such a
way that it's impossible to tell if it /happened/ or if it was in Persephone's imagination
(This is the sort of shit I need to ask him)
Markos Gage: I don't recall any affair. But the merging roles of Dionysos and Hades alludes to
something... or something.
Erin Fortner: she's also his mother in some stories?
Markos Gage: Mother, sister, lover, daughter. idea.
Depending on how one views Dionysos and his never ending connections Persephone can fit
into any and or the above roles.
eupheme-butterfly: A concept that exists in modern polytheistic traditions, too--see all the different
ways one can approach Krishna in a devotional path.
Markos Gage: I always forget how to spell the word, collarge or whatever.
(anyway, search "The Story" on house of vines and read, it gives a taste of what I'm trying to
yabber on about.)
eupheme-butterfly: Oop and also, apparently Aphrodite and Adonis had a child, Beroe, who became a
lover of Dionysos (Nonnos says)
Markos Gage: I just read that :P
eupheme-butterfly: Persephone is not listed among the "official" love affairs of Dionysos, so I'm thinking
this is something that comes about more as a result of his associations with Haides
Markos Gage: yeah
mostly from his titles, as I understand.
It's a conculsion of a theory that I consider advance myth reading. Where things are dotted
together and sometimes merged and sometimes not. Um like looking at myth as layers upon
layers.
eupheme-butterfly: Yeah, and it's something I've been exploring a bit of, too
Erin Fortner: circles, man.
Markos Gage: pretty much Erin.
eupheme-butterfly: Like, there's a similar amount of overlap between Aphrodite and Ariadne, at least
that I've personally experienced
(which can be summed up in three words: roses. fuckin' EVERYWHERE)
Markos Gage: People get confused by this idea though, which I don't like,
where they say that this means they are all the same goddess etc. and move into neopaganism
from there.
eupheme-butterfly: Yeah, it's not archetypalism, and it's not really soft polytheism, either. It’s…masks.
Amanda Morris: =)
Markos Gage: Aprhrodite also shares similarities with Peresphone and Ardine. One can draw a
connection between all and say they are all one and the same.
eupheme-butterfly: And often not very easy to describe because, well, it's a mystery
Markos Gage: ^^^ yes.
Aphrodites holy fruit is a pompegrant btw, due to the love bond of marrage. Which is the cause
of Pers bond to Hades and thereby becomes her fruit too. Etc. Connections, circles.
eupheme-butterfly: (The pomegranate is also sacred to Hera, whom I've been directed to honor more
lately)
eupheme-butterfly: (...I need to get on that)
Erin Fortner: It's, in my mind, like... Eupheme is a woman, who has a kid. My other friend is a woman,
who has a daughter. Sometimes, they say the same things--similar phrases and shit. But that
doesn't mean they're literally the same person.
Markos Gage: and apples as well.
10:30 EST
eupheme-butterfly: Imagine that, the Gods are /actual real entities/ and may occasionally like the same
stuff as each other!
Markos Gage: It's like that Erin, but also picture the two sometimes coming together and merging with
each other and getting confused.
eupheme-butterfly: I aM eVeRyWhErE
Erin Fortner: I kind of feel like when we get these stories it's like we're hearing the story about the
author's friend
and if I told a bunch of stories about my friends
it would be easy for someone who doesn't know them to think Eupheme and my other friend
ARE the same person
we're playing the world's most confusing game of Telephone
Markos Gage: lol yeah it's like that, it gets really fucked up when your talking in terms of ancient ancient
stuff to. Like my friend did this when we were in kindergarden.
thats like when we discuss stuff from Mioan times.
eupheme-butterfly: Oh gosh yeah
Erin Fortner: "My one friend likes roses and my other friend likes roses and it's like ALL ROSES ALL THE
TIME. And I adore them. And--hey, look! A rose! That means my friend is here." "Which
friend?" "The one who likes roses, duh."
eupheme-butterfly: ^
I'm getting a strong sense, just from stuff I've been reading tonight, that one way of approaching
Aphrodite is as Someone who--like us--is devoted in Her heart to Dionysos. That sense of
devotion--whether it has sexual elements or not--is a form of love, and all love comes from
Aphrodite.
When I celebrated the Maiuma, last year, I basically brought Aphrodite's image in procession to
the Starry Bull altar and left Her there with Dionysos for the night--a devotional version of "gosh
you two, get a room already ;) "
Erin Fortner: lol
Markos Gage: that sounds wonderful! :P
I must correct something I was unsure of eariler. It's Ares that kills Adonis, in jealiousy. Not dear
Persephone.
eupheme-butterfly: Right. Some stories say just "a boar," some stories say Ares incited the boar, others
say that Apollon turned Himself into a boar and did the gouging.
Markos Gage: Apollo too? Gees Adion was not liked.
eupheme-butterfly: (Or too well-liked, and everyone wanted to compete over him)
Markos Gage: (wtf is with my dyslexia today, damn my spelling is fucking awful. Sorry)
So anyway, moving onto the Cadmus family troubles: is there anything we want to discuss about
that?
eupheme-butterfly: Brb, snack
Erin Fortner: ...who is he?
Markos Gage: Cadmus is the founder of Thebes, the grand father of Dionysus.
Erin Fortner: k.
Markos Gage: He marries Harmonia, who is the bastard child of Ares of Aphrodite and cursed by
Hephaestus.
This curse eventurally is handed down throughout the family which ends when the city is
destroyed.
It's also a contributor to the dead of Semele and the premeture birth of Dionysos.
and dead*
eupheme-butterfly: Dionysos TRIED to resolve it by getting Pentheus' devotion...but that didn't work. So
he had Pentheus killed as a propitiatory sacrifice...but it was too little, too late.
Erin Fortner: ohhhhh
eupheme-butterfly: (Kadmos' family line was double-cursed, too: Hephaistos' wrath against Harmonia,
and then Kadmos killed a serpent that was a son of Ares in order to get to the spring it guarded.)
Markos Gage: Oedipus is another that suffers the curse beacuse his mother. The curse by the way is a
necklace which the women of the family wear and cannot remove.
eupheme-butterfly: (So, just, everyone in Thebes is screwed)
Amanda Morris: yes
Markos Gage: its like one of those annoying D&D items.
Amanda Morris: lmao
eupheme-butterfly: Well SOMEONE crit-botched
Markos Gage: its give you 20 CHA but not crits and cannot be removed without remove curse scroll.
eupheme-butterfly: "Roll to hit the ferocious lion!" "Ooooh nat 20!" "Awesome. You crit the lion, it
dies. Now, roll to stay drunk." "Uh, I got a 1." "You sober up and realize that /it's not a lion./"
Markos Gage: LOL Hahahaha!
Amanda Morris: wah wah
Erin Fortner: lmao
Markos Gage: gees we're terrible nerds. Anyway that is about as much infulence on the Cadmus family I
know. It seems just a tidbit of info but Aphrodites affair affects everyone in the family.
eupheme-butterfly: Yep. Circles.
Erin Fortner: Aphrodite marrying Hephaestus had more to do with Zeus feeling bad for Hephaestus than
anything else, didn't it?
Amanda Morris: I thought it was because she chose a nice guy
Markos Gage: no thats related to Dionysos and good you brought it up.
eupheme-butterfly: It's also, in certain lights, an allegory for the universal laws relating to attraction and
repulsion
Markos Gage: Hepheatus is pissed at his mother for disowning him so he curses her to be stuck to a
chair. Nobody can convince him to return to uncurse Hera (which Zeus set a reward of
Aphrodites hand in marrage). Dionysos gives the smith drunk and drags him back home, where
Hepheastus is forced to uncurse his mother, Dionysos is wavers the reward for a place in
Olympius. Or whatever. But Hepahestus gets wedded to Aprhodite.
Amanda Morris: hahah. I remember as a kid reading a story that said she chose him because he was
nicer and kinder than all of the other gods, hahah
such different stories!
Erin Fortner: And there's another story involving him and chains, right? Where he creates some sort of
chain net thing to catch Aphrodite and Ares together?
eupheme-butterfly: The fedora strikes again
Markos Gage: Yeah, Hep. catches the two having an affair in chains and drags them before the gods.
Instead of give the smith justice they laugh at him and call him a cockold. This is what begins the
curse.
Hephaestus cannot punish Ares and Aphrodite, but he can their children.
Erin Fortner: hmm.
11:00 EST
Markos Gage: It's funny but the whole story also almost the same paraells in Naurian myth. Which I just
found kinda freaky.
eupheme-butterfly: Do tell! (If that's permitted.)
Markos Gage: Basically it's a story where a beatuful women has to pick a husband, she is fooled by the
men as they give a hat of beauty to the ugly man, so she chooses him. When he removes the hat
she freaks out and flees into the sky, she is the sun and the ugly man is the moon who chases
her forever.
eupheme-butterfly: Oh wow.
Erin Fortner: hmm
Markos Gage: their creation myth is pretty awesome too, which has different explainlations for the
moon and sun. But the universe is created by a giant spider stuck in a shell.
eupheme-butterfly: Huh. WOW I love regional cultus
Markos Gage: saddly its almost dead :( not many people know the stories or have bothered to write
them.
population of less than 10,000 with its own language and culture which is also heavly chirstian
eupheme-butterfly: That sounds a lot like the remainining American Indian tribes from around where I
live :(
There are a few traditions around this area, but it was colonized over 400 years ago and much of
it has been lost, appropriated and distorted beyond recognition, or thoroughly Christianized
Markos Gage: yeah totally sucks, I'm waiting for them to legalise homosexuallity, I wanna go over and
help record stuff.
they were colonised in the late 1800's so there is still something.
My partners aunty was seriously the vooduo preistess of the island (they called it voudoo
because of hollywood)
anyway sorry for totally sidetracking the chat!
eupheme-butterfly: Well, good wrap-up question: how can we take this info and bring it into our
everyday sort of worship?
Amanda Morris: I like the idea of love that someone mentioned earlier. love is the realm of Aphrodite,
and all types of love
Markos Gage: that was Emily and yes I agree with that.
Erin Fortner: I like your "okay you two get a room already" idea.
Amanda Morris: that just seems like a simple way to be mindful of Her
eupheme-butterfly: I had never thought to connect devotional love to Her before, but that's something
I'd been musing on lately anyway
Erin Fortner: and I feel like I can connect with her more when relating to her love for D.
eupheme-butterfly: YES!
Markos Gage: ^ for me it opens up things a lot more, when put into that perspective.
I also intend to explore the Adonis myth a bit more, there is obviously some connections there.
Erin Fortner: what kinds of offerings does Aphrodite like?
Markos Gage: flowers, shells. no pigs
Amanda Morris: vanilla, sea water
eupheme-butterfly: Wine, all sorts of aromatic incense, pearls
I imagine anything /pretty/
Roses
Erin Fortner: no pigs?
eupheme-butterfly: A boar killed Adonis
Erin Fortner: oh, durr
Markos Gage: no pigs are to be give to Aphrodite because of Adonis. Unless, they are given as a
revenage gift.
eupheme-butterfly: What, like, "take this pig and go to town. get all that rage out" kind of thing?
Markos Gage: yeah. Or "I kill this pig for all the suffering caused to you." So don't ever offer her pork or
pork related products to her.
eupheme-butterfly: Makes sense.
Erin Fortner: Hmm. Idea.
Markos Gage: I think its good to mention that because some sweets have guilous from pigs in them.
Erin Fortner: Roses, wine, and something romantic for her on Valentine's day.
Markos Gage: and people like giving lollies, candy, to the gods.
eupheme-butterfly: Could do! I like offering Her really good chocolate.
Markos Gage: yeah that sounds good.
eupheme-butterfly: But only after checking to see if it has pork byproducts in.
Erin Fortner: I know some people don't do the Valentine's day thing, but it has personal history with me
eupheme-butterfly: This sounds cheesy, but a kids' show I happened to watch incidentally (because
daughter) called it "Just Because I Love You" day and I think that's wonderfully inclusive :D
Markos Gage: hehehe thats cute. I don't celebrate it but meh, I'm a party pooper.
eupheme-butterfly: It's not for everyone! I don't think that makes you a party-pooper.
Erin Fortner: it happens to be my mom's birthday, so we always had chocolate and a nice dinner and
stuff.
I doubt I'd care as much were that not the case.
eupheme-butterfly: (A few friends of mine in high-school would go out for ice cream and really scary or,
alternately, bad horror movies on V-Day and call it their "ice cream antisocial.")
One more thing I wanted to ask you guys--next week's chat topic is a practical discussion on a
topic of our choice. What do you think we should talk about?
Markos Gage: I thought it was going to be magic?
eupheme-butterfly: Oh! I hadn't remembered that.
Erin Fortner: yeah
Markos Gage: I would really love Jack to be involved in that one. I do not do magic and would like to
know more about it.
eupheme-butterfly: Thanks :D And on that note, a reminder that Friday, in medieval magic through to
modern times, is Dies Veneris--Venus' Day--and if you want to do something extra to honor Her,
surround yourself with Her imagery. (And the color green.)
I emailed him earlier in the week but I haven't gotten a response :/
Markos Gage: would like to heard Narkaios' insight on it too. Such a shame about time zones. :(
Erin Fortner: truth.
Markos Gage: ah well I'll leave it there.
eupheme-butterfly: Okiedoke! Could we maybe try to rustle up some reading material on magic and
post it to the FB group?
Erin Fortner: I might have a copy of the PGM somewhere.
Markos Gage: yeah sounds like a plan.
Erin Fortner: I think I have an electronic version.
Markos Gage: I get confused with a lot of difinitions and concepts used today too so I need some basic
101 stuff.