Subject: SS SA Cover on eBay
Posted 4/10/2007 by Bruce Madden
Hi all,
Anyone else see this on eBay?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120030130165&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RSCC_Pr4
_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT&refitem=5629359947&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=active_view_item&usedrule1=Store
CatToStoreCat&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget
Opinions?
Bruce
Posted 4/10/2007 by Jim Kellogg
Hi Bruce,
This item has been debated here many times. Some say yea others say ney.
I understand there was even litigation over BPP experts reputations in
Germany about it. I own the original Dr. Werner M. Bohne's file on the
subject and from what I can read (although most is in German) he was ney
man. However I can believe philatelist who was also somewhat crazy could
have CTO a Mi 909-910 cover on Der Fuhrer's last birthday. You will find
heaps in the TRS archives using the keyword "mi909"
The seller is a member here and may wish to expand on what he knows.
Jim K.
Posted 4/10/2007 by Bruce Madden
Hi Jim,
I wondered if perhaps the seller was part of the group. I emailed him and asked for a translation of the
expertization or a scan so I could translate as the one online is too small to decipher.
Bruce
Posted 4/10/2007 by Aleks Domaradzki
Richard is a busy guy – so if he does not respond immediately please don’t take it as him being untrustworthy!!!
Have done several exchanges with him and all worked out ok
Which reminds me – Jim – I need to find you some more revenues so we can finalise our mega trade (well at
least mega for me)!!!! Have some more GG rev docs coming so may be something there for you
Aleks
Posted 4/10/2007 by Bob Jones
Hi Jim,
Just thought that I'd let you know that I bought a couple of items from twany-cat last year and both
purchases were just fine. Quick delivery, well packaged and exactly as described.
Cheers,
Bob
Posted 4/10/2007 by Ivan Cacitti
Reading the last line of the certificate can be interesting:
"Ein tatsächliche Beförderung des Briefes kann nicht bestätigt
werden", which reads:
"A real delivery of the cover cannot be confirmed".
I will not make any additional comment concerning the price which is
requested.
Posted 4/10/2007 by Jim Kellogg
I've also traded with Richard several times and very satisfied.
Jim K.
Posted 4/10/2007 by Bruce Madden
And Richard quickly emailed me that easier-to-read scan of the expert's opinion!
I have a couple of questions some of you may be able to answer.
Does anyone here have covers franked with different stamps cancelled this late in Berlin--April 20, 1945 or
later from this station?
Like Jim, I believe you expressed this thought...I can see a postal employee perhaps CTO'ing this cover for
himself--it's not out of the realm of possibility. This might explain why the cover is so clean.
Does anyone know of any articles of the Berlin Postal employees who worked at this late date in Berlin?
Are covers from Berlin, during this timeframe of nearly round-the-clock bombardment, normally this clean?
It would be fascinating to see if anyone here has covers from this station during this timeframe with handwriting
that might match that on the cover. A longshot perhaps but anything is possible. Also forgot to ask Richard if
there was a sender name and address on this cover--another source to check, say against employees of the
Berlin Post Office. Or to see if anyone else has covers sent from this individual.
Bruce
Posted 4/11/2007 by Aleks Domaradzki
So what is the expertiser expertising then?
That genuine stamps and a genuine cover with genuine postmark though not
necessarily postally used?
Aleks
Posted 4/11/2007 by Ivan Cacitti
To my mind, it means this cover has been made post war, with genuine stamps,
genuine postmarks. Plenty of postal material was still available once the war
was over.
Ivan Cacitti
Posted 4/11/2007 by Jay Carrigan
I'm travelling at the moment so I can't look
anything up, but I believe that is the
crux of the (mid 90's? German court case. The wording on the certificate was
pretty much dictated by the court decision.
Jay Carrigan
www.jaypex.com
<><><><><>
Subject: TR Cancels
Posted 5/26/2007 by Bruce Madden
Hi all,
Still wondering about that Michel 909-10 on the last stamps April 20 or as the new English edition states April
21. I suppose I already know the answer. They bungled the date?
Bruce
Posted 5/26/2007 by Jay Carrigan
Before 1975 most catalogs used April 21. Michel changed to April 20 in
the 1975 editions, possibly influenced by some fake covers. A 1946
letter from the Berlin Magistrate states that the stamps were sold only
on April 21 and 22.
Posted 5/26/2007 by Bruce Madden
Thanks Jay!!
Posted 5/27/2007 by Isaac Infante
A little more info:
many thanks for your interest and inquiry. The correct issue date of MiNos.
909-910 is disputed among philately experts. MiNos. 909-910 were planned to be issued on 21st April but
indeed, they were already sold on 20th April.
They probably couldn't have been sold on 21st April, as the post office is likely to have been bombed that day.
In future catalogue editions, we will give the 21st as official first day of issue but we will also give the 20th as
the day these stamps were indeed sold.
We hope that these hints are useful for you and wish you all the best. Enjoy your collection!
With best greetings
i. A.
Melanie Baumann
For SCHWANEBERGER VERLAG GMBH
Posted 5/27/2007 by Bruce Madden
Great update, Jay. Thanks!
<><><><><>
Subject: Postal services in Berlin April 1945
Posted 12/1/2007 by Robin Wednesbury
Hi All,
I'm Robin and I'm a new member of the group, so; "Hi!"
The note in Jim's "On this day" about the resumption of postal services in Southern Netherlands has prompted
me to ask this question:
Does anyone know what state the postal services were in just before the fall of Berlin? I know that no-one was
allowed to flee Berlin and workers were expected to be at their place of work, so I'm assuming that there
must've been some sort of service right up to the end. (Though I think crossing the Russian lines would
probably be taking the postman's pledge a little too far)
I'm particularly curious about this item I saw on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=310001761690&ssPageName=STRK:MEW
A:PIC&ih=021
All points to the enterprising stamp dealer who had the presence of mind to organise this in the last week of the
battle! On 25 April the Russians had completely surrounded Berlin and were pushing inside the defensive SBahn ring.
The item is probably CTO (and certainly beyond my price range). However I am wondering whether it was
possible to send a (real) letter at this time?
Comments anyone?
regards
Robin
Posted 12/1/2007 by Jay Carrigan
Berlin W73 was a sub-office of Berlin W35 located at Elßholzstr. 32.
Hans-J. Walch and Wolfgang Strobel, in their handbook "SA-/SS-Briefe
sind Nachkriegsproduktionen", are of the opinion that there is no such
thing as a genuine SA/SS cover. They devote a section to "The
Manipulations with the Postmark W 73 -c-".
The W73 post office was destroyed in the Soviet artillery attacks that
began on April 21. The office was never reopened after the war. The
postmark may have been looted from the rubble, but I think it more likely
is a complete forgery since the bridge does not contain time information.
Jay Carrigan
www.jaypex.com
Posted 12/1/2007 by Bruce Madden
Speaking of the infamous B292-293, do we have any reliable information on how many of each were printed?
I wonder how many have been abused since 1945, meaning faked on piece or cover?
Bruce
Posted 12/1/2007 by Bruce Madden
Hi Robin,
Welcome to the group!
Did you spot this one on eBay?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170172245559&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:I
T&ih=007
Sent 'em two emails asking if it was by any chance expertized. No response...
This is a fun issue to speculate on.
Bruce
PS: There has been much commentary on these two stamps in the past.
Posted 12/1/2007 by Robin Wednesbury
Jay,
WOW! That's an amazing level of detail both on the cancel and on the location and fate of the post office. How
did you find this out?
Robin
Posted 12/1/2007 by Robin Wednesbury
Thanks Bruce,
No I didn't see this one as it's in the US domain. Because I'm in Australia, I can look at sellers who choose to
sell worldwide but I won't see all the sellers unless I go to each ebay domain. I've only just found this out after a
tip off from Jay or Jim. I did visit ebay.de but the prices there seem astronomical and the bidding is frenzied! I
guess they have all the really good stuff!
Back on topic...
Does anyone have any information on the state of the postal services in those last few days?
regards
Robin
Posted 12/1/2007 by Jay Carrigan
Try asking them if it has an arrival postmark on the back (NOT).
This postmark is also listed in Walch-Strobel as a fake. In fact,
I think there are more fakes from Wilmersdorf than anywhere else.
Jay Carrigan
www.jaypex.com
Posted 12/1/2007 by Jay Carrigan
May 1944 "Ortsverzeichnis I" for location and status of the post office.
Most of the other information is from the Walch-Strobel handbook.
Unfortunately this book has been sold out for several years. I just
checked the authors' web sites and there is nothing new listed.
Jay Carrigan
www.jaypex.com
Posted 12/1/2007 by Jay Carrigan
Check out the first book on Walch's web site
<http://www.philatelie-berlin.de/>.
Only the first section of the book deals with the TR period though.
I found the Walch-Strobel handbook listed for £13.50 at Vera Trinder's
<http://www.vtrinder.co.uk/PHILATLIC%20BOOKS/NEW%20G-K%20Philatelic%20books.htm>
The price is £13.50 - a bit higher that Walch's 8 euros. But then Trinder
apparently has it and Walch doesn't.
Jay Carrigan
www.jaypex.com
Posted 12/1/2007 by Bob Grosch
So, is it being reported to ebay as a fake?
Posted 12/1/2007 by Jim Kellogg
I just sent an email to the APS-eBay forgery group.
- Jim
Posted 12/1/2007 by Jay Carrigan
I used to do that, but not any more. it was just too frustrating
dealing with those idiots.
Jay Carrigan
www.jaypex.com
<><><><><>
Subject: Let me re-state, Mi 909-910
Posted 1/27/2008 by Howard Grenzenbach
I know this subject has been gone over many time before so I spent
the last couple of hours perusing the archives for an answer to my
question. Does anyone have any information as to when these stamps
(Mi 909-10) were printed and when they were delivered to Berlin, if
they were sent to any other post offices and when the Allies overran
the presses and liberated the stamps? I would assume any deliveries
would have been just ahead of the rampaging armies if they managed
to complete their deliveries at all.
Its still an interesting subject to me, so thanks for bearing with me again,
Howard
Posted 1/28/2008 by Jay Carrigan
Here's the "birth certificate" for the SA-SS stamps <http://www.jaypex.com/Germany/SASS.jpg>.
I've also included the document as an attachment.
This is the only official mention of these stamps.
The Amtsblatt announcement is dated Jan. 30, 1945.
Both the Volkssturm and SA-SS stamps were printed in
the Vienna Staatsdruckerei. Presumably the Volkssturm
was printed first since it was issued sometime in February,
so I would assume that printing of the SA-SS stamps
began in late Feb. or early March.
Street fighting began in the southern part of Vienna on my
birthday (April 7). Within a week the Red Army controlled
the entire city.
Since Walch and Strobel published their little booklet in
1995, I am not aware of any new findings that would change
their basic conclusion: There was NO genuine usage of the
SA-SS stamps in Berlin. The title of the booklet says it all "SA-SS Covers are Postwar Productions".
The authors visited newspaper archives in Berlin. They found
many interesting articles about the progress of the battle and
the activities of the Russians, but absolutely no mention of
the SA-SS stamps.
The attached Amtsblatt does however state that standing order
customers would have first priority in the distribution of the new
stamps. It is rumored that several Berlin dealers (and perhaps
dealers in other parts of the country) received their orders prior
to the official first day (which the authors claim is April 21 and
not April 20 as stated in Michel).
One interesting result of their studies is that, based on an
analysis of registry label numbers, there could be as many
as 2,100 covers with these stamps. They are by no means
rare. Furthermore, during the period when these covers were
postmarked, all known covers with "normal" franking.are
philatelically influenced.
I have heard rumors that a train carrying a supply of the
SA-SS stamps from Vienna to Berlin was damaged by air
attack along the way, and that the stamps made their way
into the local post office and were sold. I have never found
any evidence to support this. The official position is that
they were only sold in Berlin.
Jay Carrigan
www.jaypex.com
Posted 1/28/2008 by Howard Grenzenbach
Thank you, Jay. As usual, you have come through with more than enough information. This is extremely useful.
Howard
Posted 1/28/2008 by Jay Carrigan
And check out lot 4543 in the next Gärtner auction <http://www.auktionen-gaertner.de/>.
This is an April 20 cover signed by Dub and Bartels.
According to Walch and Strobel, about 90% of the
SA-SS covers are dated April 20, and were made
primarily for sale to Americans.as souvenirs of
Hitler's birthday.
Jay Carrigan
www.jaypex.com
Posted 1/29/2008 by Bruce Madden
Wow, I've watched and participated in several MI 909-10 threads but this is the first time I've heard that bit of
history Jay.
Thanks!!
<><><><><>
Subject: SS/SA
Posted 3/3/2008 by Donald Boese
Just got the new Nutmeg auction catalog 167. Was surprised to see
listed with pictures three SS/SA covers. One is dated 20/4/1945,
"accompanying note signed by Schlegel states that the cnl is genuine and
that this post office (Berlin W) was still open on this date."
Suggested bid is $500. Another with similar note is also Hitler
birthday Berlin also at 500 and third has no explanation, suggested is
$300. Surprising that Nutmeg would uncritically put these up....
Don
Posted 3/3/2008 by Jay Carrigan
In every auction there are bidders with more money than brains. I have
no doubts that these covers will find a new home.
Lot 10448 - W 68 24.4.45 - probably a complete fabrication. Cancel
should be SW 68, but even with enhancing the scan I can't make out
the S. Also there should be one or more letters in the bottom arc but
clearly there are none.
Lot 10449 - W 35 b 23.4.45 - genuine cancel but postdated. All post
offices, banks and other businesses in the center of Berlin closed on
April 21 due to the Soviet artillery bombardment.
Lot 10450 - C 25 u 20.4.45 - genuine cancel but postdated. About 800
registered covers with this date and cancel are known - about 90% of
the existing SA/SS covers! They are all fake, as the stamps weren't
sold until April 21st. They were all produced by two stamp dealers Amberger and Hamper. The latter is both the sender and addressee
of this "cover",
Jay Carrigan
www.jaypex.com
Posted 3/4/2008 by Bruce Madden
Hi Don,
I'm never surprised by what auctioneers will offer. Evidently there were no caveat emptors attached to these?
Bruce
Posted 3/4/2008 by Donald Boese
No warning at all, Bruce. Again, I do find it disconcerting that a major
auction firm like Nutmeg would sell something so blatantly fake...
<><><><><>
Subject: 909-910
Posted 3/26/2009 by Patrick Burnard
You may find this interesting, or a laugh. Mi 909-910 with Feldpost cancels
addressed to Von Ribbontrop. Again, interesting to say the least, now see how
many actually bid on it!!! eBay item # 320349419274
Patrick
Posted 3/26/2009 by John Cibulskis
At least the seller admits to it being fake.
I'll bet that if he didn’t the price would be up to several hundred dollars by now.
John
Posted 3/26/2009 by Jim McKie
Are there ANY expertised examples of used 909-910?
Jim
Posted 3/26/2009 by Howard Grenzenbach
Seems to me I've heard of them being expertized early on, in the 40s and 50s, but the experts have since taken a
different point of view. They apparently began to realize that everyone involved in sending a letter at the time
would have been dodging bullets and artillery fire to do so and are now more reluctant to expertise such a
cover! I'm still willing to bet that there was at least one collector in Berlin that had to have a first day (or any
day) cover and was willing to take a few chances to do so. And the postal clerks probably thought him a
madman.
Howard
Posted 3/26/2009 by Pat Burnard
I think that the postal clerk would have to be equally mad to still be working during this period. In doing
searches for them on various sites including eBay.de the latest date I've seen on a cancel is 04-25-45 !!!!!!
Anyone else seen a date later than this?
Patrick
Posted 3/26/2009 by John Cibulskis
My understanding is that there are NO validly used (or even cancelled) copies of these stamps.
A couple of years ago I was at a stamp show at which a dealer was raving about the good deal he had just had
in buying a MNH pair and a “used” pair from a seller. I bought the MNH pair, but would not touch the “used”
copies. That being said, I do have a copy of the “used” pair in my album which I consider to be a “space-filler”.
John
Posted 3/26/2009 by Grant Herbster
The GPS magazine had a nice article on those stamps several years ago
Posted 3/26/2009 by Bruce Madden
I just read that article a few months ago when I purchased a big box of stamp-related mags and books...also if
I'm not mistaken, one of the first GPS issues also featured an article on those covers franked with Mi 909-910.
Bruce
PS: I'm still of the opinion that stashed away somewhere are one or two genuine covers with Berlin cancels.
Imagine that find! Fun to fantasize about stamps...
Posted 3/26/2009 by Howard Grenzenbach
I'd like to be the finder of that stashed away cover too. Problem is, with all the fakery and back-stamped copies,
will any one be willing to certify it? It would almost take a time machine and a willing participant to go back,
duck the bullets and find out if it is real. I think that without pretty positive certification it wouldn't be worth
any more than the forgeries. The ones that are certified now have a cloud over their head.
Howard
Posted 3/26/2009 by Patrick Burnard
Hello Howard & All:
Didn't we have a file or map of the post offices in Berlin and the date and
time each closed? I just checked and couldn't find it.
It might be interesting to find out what the latest dated piece of mail with
any franking out of Berlin was dated.
Also on the subject there's been a cover with certs(?) for sale on eBay for a
few years now by user name Twany-cat, item # 120030130165
Asking price? 7 grand.
Patrick
Posted 3/26/2009 David Lundquist
Does anyone remember the article a few years ago in GPS about some construction
work being done in Berlin and the discovery of the body of a German postal
worker with a mouldering mailbag filled with undelivered mail including a number
of genuinely used and cancelled covers with #909-910 used on them? I was, as you
can imagine, very excited to read about this and couldn't wait to learn more,
see the covers, etc. Well, I was excited for a couple of days until I went back
to reread the article and realized it was in the APRIL issue! April Fools Day!
David L
Posted 3/26/2009 by Howard Grenzenbach
Hi Pat,
Here's the link to the map; World Wide Web, <aoladp://MA9791417-0001/Berlin_fall_map.jpg>, but it doesn't
seem to open for me. At least, not on my dial-up connection.
Someone mentioned a date of April 25, 1945 and upon backtracking to see who it was, it was you. Mine are
April 20, 1945 (known back stamps).
Took a look at the cover. Can't see the cert well enough to tell who certified it, but it was done in 1999. I bought
a set of stamps (the Tanhausers) only to find the 20pf was the wrong perfs. It was certified too. The dealer was
honest and gave me most of my money back. I kept the set.
Howard
Posted 3/27/2009 by Richard Davis
The certification is by Hans-Dieter Schlegel.
I have sent him an email asking if he is willing to recertify.
Regards,
Posted 3/26/2009 by Howard Grenzenbach
I think his reply would interest this group.
Howard
<><><><><>
Subject: Fw: 1999 Certificate 909-910 Briefe
Posted 3/27/2009 by Richard Davis
Group,
I included a copy of the certificate that Hans-Dieter issued in 1999 and here is the response.
I presume he will not re-certify.
Regards,
----- Original Message ----From: Forwerk - H.D. Schlegel
To: 'Richard Davis'
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 3:20 AM
Subject: AW: 1999 Certificate 909-910 Briefe
Dear Mr. Davis,
until clarification further particulars we will not examine these letters.
Regards,
Hans-Dieter Schlegel
<><><><><>
Subject: (continued)
Posted 3/27/2009 by Greg Neumann
Alf Harper's Book "Stamps of the Third Reich" gives the time and dates as follows:Berlin C2 - Open on the 20th April and probably the following day
Berlin-Charlottenburg 2. abandoned late in the day on the 20th April.
Berlin S.S. 68 closed on the 21st April
Berlin C.25 (Sub Post Office) open on the 20th April and probably the 21st April
Berlin-Wittenau closed 7 PM. on the 21sy April
Berlin-Wilmersdorf closed at 11am on the 25th April
Berlin W.15. closed on the 28th April
how true it is I dont know
Greg Neumann
Posted 3/27/2009 by Jay Carrigan
Here are some of the key findings published in Walch & Strobel's
booklet "SA-/SS-Briefe sind Nachkriegsproduktionen" (SA/SS
covers are postwar productions).
1. The first day of sale was April 21, not April 20. ALL April 20th
covers are postwar forgeries that were sold for American dollars
(this accounts for about 90% of all known covers).
2. All covers with Berlin W 73 c postmarks (without hour) are forged.
3. A Bedarfsbrief from Berlin-Charlottenburg 2 bn is know from April 25
(not with SA/SS stamps).
4. Berlin-Wilmersdorf 1 ceased operation on the evening of April 21.
All covers with 1a, 1d, 1q and 3d postmarks from the 24th and 25th
are forgeries.
5. All covers with Berlin C25 h and C 25 u postmarks from April 20 & 21
are forgeries.
6. All Berlin C43 o covers from April 21 are forgeries.
7. All Berlin W8 ss covers from April 21 have backdated postmarks.
8. All Berlin W30 covers from April 21, 23 and 24 are either forged or
backdated.
9. The last American bombing raid on Berlin was the morning of April 21.
At midday the Soviet artillery barrage began. All communications
between inner city post offices ceased at this point.
10. It was common practice for dealers to be supplied with new issues
prior to the first day of sale so that they would have ample time to
prepare covers.
The Walch-Strobel booklet is hard to find, but well worth buying if you
ever get the chance.
Jay Carrigan
www.jaypex.com
Posted 3/28/2009 by Patrick Burnard
Great info Jay. Thanks.
Patrick
Posted 3/28/2009 by Len Ouderkirk
Jim here is a cover which i purchased a few years ago from a seller in Germany.
I offer it only as an example for your evaluation.
I wonder if you can explain for me what they refer to as backdated cancel?
thank you Len Ouderkirk
Posted 3/28/2009 by Jay Carrigan
Len,
A backdated cancel is made by a genuine postmarking device with the date
slugs altered to some date in the past. For example, April 20 covers produced
in June or July.
Since your writeup refers to registry labels I should also comment on that. At
any given time a post office would be using only one style of numbered registry
label. They would be used in numerical order. Experts know which types of
labels were used in each PO. They also know, from other known genuine covers,
the approximate range of numbers that would be used on any particular day (and
in some cases they can even relate the number to the time of day).
Think about this for a moment. If you had access to a postmarking device that
you could reset to a past date, you could manufacture a cover forgery. To make
it even better, you could soak a registry label
off some junk cover and affix it to
your creation. How many collectors would know
that the registry label could not
have been used with that postmark on that date?
Think about this some more. Suppose that you are a dealer that received an
advance distribution of the SA/SS stamps, and suppose that you had prepared
100 or so covers to be registered and postmarked
on the first day. Now April 21
comes. The bombs are falling in the
morning. Artillery shells are falling in the
afternoon. You're not crazy enough to try to get to a PO that may not even be
open. Now, how are you going to recoup your investment?
As an extreme example, covers with a Berlin W30 r postmark with the date/time
23.4.45.8-9V are known with three different types of registry labels!
Finally, you note that Berlin C2 was one of the
offices that sold the SA/SS stamps.
This is impossible since this office was
destroyed in a Feb. 3 bombing raid. C2
at first relocated to C27 and, when it too was
destroyed, relocated again to C25.
C2 postmarks were not used on outgoing or incoming mail (except for internal PO
correspondence).
Jay Carrigan
www.jaypex.com
Posted 3/28/2009 by Len Ouderkirk
thank you for your response, always good to receive info from knowlegable people in the grHave a great day
and continue to provide help to fellow collectors.
Len
Posted 3/29/2009 by Richard Jones
I join with other members in thanks for the all feedback on this topic.They have been fascinating and the best
information I have seen on this elusive subject..
It did send me to look at a cover I bought 30+ years from a reputable european dealer ,who sold to me without
any comments for a reasonable price .It was when I was new to collecting and with catalogues showing used
copies would not have the knowledge to question it although might have enjoyed a good story abt them and
how they got sent.
Can anyone comment on the postmark same for both issues as follows
BERLIN W -23-4-45-13-14 35M.
Long suspected they were postwar and this debate was of great interest.
Started to look again at my collecting after an absence of many years due to the toils of work and quite rusty but
keen.
Richard
Posted 3/29/2009 by Jay Carrigan
No such post office! There was a Berlin C43 (sub-office of C2), but no W43.
Jay Carrigan
www.japex.com
[It appears I mis-read the previous post. Berlin W35 m is a legitimate postmark, so this is presumably
backdated. Per an old (1978) census from FG Berlin, the earliest recorded date for this postmark is November
1945. I have no idea how I ever came up with W43!]
<><><><><>
Subject: Berlin PO Codes and info
Posted 3/30/2009 by Jim Kellogg
Attached and linked is a list of 87 post offices in WWII Berlin.. Does
anyone have more info to add or want to discuss anything about it?
See POSTAL RATES & PO INFORMATION > Berlin PO.xls
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THIRD_REICH_STAMPS/files/
Jim K.
Posted 3/30/2009 by Jay Carrigan
The 1944 Ortsverzeichnis lists many more POs (but not the BPAs).
I don't have the time to transcribe the information, but I can scan the
pages if someone else would like to tackle this.
Jay Carrigan
www.jaypex.com
Posted 3/30/2009 by Jim Kellogg
Thanks Jay. I also have a copy of the 1944 Ortsverzeichnis also but it
doesn't list the actual PO address. My information comes from a WWII
intelligence map which shows the actual PO locations as well as
virtually every other Government building and office. Someday I want to
overlay day-by-day order of battle maps to see if there could be
possibilities for genuine Mi 909-910 covers.
Jim K.
Posted 3/30/2009 by John Cibulskis
Jim:
Where did you get the map? Is it available somewhere?
If not, can you make a scan of it available to the group, or is it too large?
Thanks
John
Posted 3/30/2009 by Jim Kellogg
Hi John,
Reprinted by After The Battle. See:
http://www.afterthebattle.com/map.html
http://www.naval-military-press.com/berlinallied-intelligence-map-of-key-buildings-pr-17207.html
http://napoleonsbookshop.com/onlineshop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=16402
Jim K.
Posted 3/30/2009 by John Cibulskis
Thanks Jim!
I looked for a US seller, Amazon.com shows it as out of stock.
Posted 3/30/2009 by Jay Carrigan
Anhang 1 of the May 1944 Ortsverzeichnis I has the addresses all
offices in cities with more than one PO.
I scanned the first 4 pages and posted them here <http://www.jaypex.com/Germany/OV1-444.jpg>
<http://www.jaypex.com/Germany/OV1-445.jpg>
<http://www.jaypex.com/Germany/OV1-446.jpg>
<http://www.jaypex.com/Germany/OV1-447.jpg>
Jay Carrigan
www.jaypex.com
Posted 3/31/2009 by Jim Kellogg
Hi Jay,
I see you are correct I was looking in the front of the book under
Berlin which gives PO postcodes but not addresses. I will place mark
this back section that lists PO addresses.
Jim K.
<><><><><>
Subject: Mi 909 / 910 Schlegel ?
Posted 4/11/2009 by Patrick Burnard
Just came across this on ebay.de signed Schlegel item # 190298730338
Posted 4/11/2009 by Jerry Jensen
SCHLEGEL has been totally discreated on his expertizing of this issue. In fact,
he has faced legal challanges.
Please, let's give this subject up. The last issue of the Third Reich will NEVER
be proven to have been genuinely used! Anyone that persists in saying otherwise
has a "hidden" adgenda, they probably bought a cover and are trying to recover
or otherwise recoup their purchase. BEWARE!
Jerry Jensen
Posted 4/11/2009 by Jerry Jensen
I will add this for those who are unfamiliar with German expertizing marks, the
image shown shows the correct expertizing marking of an "false cancel". Take it
for what it is worth!
Posted 4/11/2009 by Barbara Butcher
Thank you and well said.
Barb
Posted 4/11/2009 by Patrick Burnard
Hello Jerry et al:
I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, nor is there any "hidden agenda"
here. When I come across these and post links it's not in defense that there are
canceled examples. More so it's for humor, a laugh, and showing how pervasive
these forgeries are, definite candidates for "Jerry's Wonders".
It never ceases to amaze & scare me at the number of forgeries and
reproductions of T/R material that are available on ebay.de, from these to Zepp
O/P's, Ostropa sheets etc. and how many of them will be passed off later as the
real deal.
With this said expect no more posts from me on the subject of 909/910
humorous or otherwise.
I will say though that I am looking for another copy of the Anschluss
issue with the Garfield the Cat O/P that was listed on ebay & posted in this
forum a while back, even better to find one canceled on cover !!!!!
Enjoying Life, Laughter & our Hobby / passion
Patrick
Posted 4/11/2009 by Bruce Madden
I would like to categorically state that I have no hidden agenda regarding Mi 909-910 used on cover. A guy can
dream can't he? Still think there may be a couple out there.
Bruce
Posted 4/11/2009 by Mike Mahoney
It's a sad thing when 2 of our longstanding, active members feel they have to
explain themselves & their comments and/or interests, (even tho the topic is
relevant to the group) because a few are "tired of hearing about it". If you
don't want get involved, then don't, better yet start a new topic, but please
don't stifle anyone's voice. I personally enjoy the discourse, and new members
will surely benefit.
(I think I snagged my pantyhose climbing off my soapbox)
Regards to all.
Mike
Posted 4/12/2009 by Nathan Gutsu
Mike,
I could not agree with you more! Please, stay on your soapbox! As to your
point about a new topic, please see my other post. And Bruce, I'm with you.
Such speculation is what keeps our hobby fun and interesting.
Nathan
Posted 4/12/2009 by Richard Jones
Well said,this new member has followed all the posts and has greatly appreciated the wealth of information
shared on this topic .All information and views should be welcomed along the effort and time involved.
Posted 4/14/2009 by Mike ?
It's a sad thing when 2 of our longstanding, active members feel they have to explain themselves & their
comments and/or interests, (even tho the topic is relevant to the group) because a few are "tired of hearing about
it". If you don't want get involved, then don't, better yet start a new topic, but please don't stifle anyone's voice. I
personally enjoy the discourse, and new members will surely benefit.
(I think I snagged my pantyhose climbing off my soapbox)
Regards to all.
Mike