PLANNING COMMISSION
MINUTES
DATE: May 4, 2005
TIME: 9:00 a.m.
PLACE: Council Chambers
MEMBERS PRESENT: Ch. Foltin, Miller, Rodgers, Wrice, Balough
OTHERS PRESENT: “See Attached Sheet”
Mayor Foltin:
Called Meeting to order and had Mr. Dobis take roll call.
Mr. Foltin:
Read 1st Item on Planning Commission
Submission for Planning Commission’s recommendation of approval, to Lorain City Council, for
the preliminary plan for the Landings at Martin’s Run Subdivision No. 1 Phase 3. R-Pud Zoning.
Jeffrey Keefe, Director of Land Development Services, applicant.
Jeffrey Keefe:
Thank you Mayor. We are here today for the preliminary development plan for the Landings
Subdivision No. 1 Phase 3. We’ve actually modified our original layout to incorporate a new cultde-sac, which would allow access back to the park, which is adjacent to the city park to the east.
Which would be part of a development for the park project itself.
Mayor:
It looks pretty straightforward to me. Are there any questions from the commissioners? Seeing
none, from council members, do you have any comments or questions? Public any comments or
questions on the Landings at Martin’s Run? If not I’ll entertain a motion.
Miller:
I’ll move to recommend to City Council to accept.
Wrice:
I’ll second it.
Mayor:
Mr. Dobis please take a roll call vote on that.
Ayes: -5Nays: -0Mr. Dobis:
Ayes have it to recommend approval to Lorain City Council.
Mr. Dobis:
Read 2nd Item on Planning Commission
Submission for Planning Commission’s recommendation of approval, to Lorain City Council, for
the final plan for the Landings at Martin’s Run Subdivision No. 1, Phase 3. R-Pud Zoning.
Jeffrey Keefe, Director of Land Development Services, applicant.
Mayor:
Once again, any comments from the commission, council or public? Take a motion
Rodgers:
Do we know are there any changes from the preliminary plan to the final plan?
Jeffrey Keefe:
No.
Rodgers:
I’ll move to approve it.
Balough:
I’ll second.
Mayor:
Okay, a motion from Mrs. Rodgers and second by Mrs. Balough. Mr. Dobis take roll call.
Ayes: -5Nays: -0-
Mr. Dobis:
Okay ayes have it to recommend approval to Lorain City Council.
Mr. Dobis:
Read 3rd item on Planning Commission
Submission for Planning Commission’s recommendation of approval, to Lorain City Council, for
the revised final development plan at Parkside at Martin’s Run. R-Pud Zoning. Jeffrey Keefe,
Director of Land Development Services, applicant.
Mayor:
Same routine, anybody have anything to say? Flash of lights? Come to the mic. Otherwise.
Rodgers:
This is a revised layout. How is it revised?
Jeffrey Keefe:
Originally in the Parkside development we had the access to the southern access drive a little bit
further to the north, with the subdivision cult-de-sac, that we just added previously we are lining
up the streets to go straight across Martin’s Run. The streets would have been too close together if
we did not make this modification.
Mayor:
Any other comments? Motion will be in order.
Wrice:
I’ll make a motion
Mayor:
Okay Mrs. Wrice makes a motion, do we have a second? Okay from Mrs. Balough I’ll take the
second from. Mr. Dobis take roll call.
Ayes: -5Nays: -0Mr. Dobis:
Ayes have it to recommend approval to Lorain City Council.
Mayor:
Well now for the main event, Mr. Dobis.
Mr. Dobis:
Read 4th item of Plan Commission
Z.C.A. 2-2005 Submission for Planning Commission’s recommendation of approval, to Lorain
City Council, for re-zoning of property (approximately 65 acres) at the Northwest Corner of
Jaeger and Leavitt Roads. From B-1 “Special Land Use” to B-3 “Shopping Center District”, to
allow for a proposed shopping center known as Light House Village. Jeffrey Keefe, Director of
Land Development Services, applicant.
Mayor:
Okay, I will start with a few words; I want to point out to the public that we are not the final
authority here. That this will not be the last meeting with this, there will still be public meetings
no matter what the Planning Commission decides. We are a recommending body to our City
Council; they will be making the ultimate decision on this matter. I want to point out why we’re
here and what this body is here to do. We’re here to make a decision solely on the zoning of the
property, we can not take extraneous factors, however important they may be such as the Will of
Anna Martin into account when we make our decisions here. We’ve gone through this on many
other developments about Wal-Mart and Heritage Development off Oakpoint and the Martin’s
Run Development. There’s always these social aspects that we are asked to consider, but we can
only take into account is this zoning consistent and similar to other things we’ve done through-out
the City in other communities. So it isn’t about whether we like a Wal-Mart or not or in this cause
rumors have it a Home-Depot may be in here. We can not take that into account, in-fact the Law
Director has issued an opinion that we can not take some of these issues, he’s issued it previously
that we can not take into consideration what business will be going there. And in this case he has
issued another opinion saying that the respects of Mrs. Martin cannot be taken into account. And I
would like Mr. Dobis to read the Law Directors opinion regarding Anna Martin’s Will into the
records.
Mr. Dobis:
Okay, “Dear Mayor Foltin: You have asked whether the City of Lorain’s Planning Commission
should take into consideration Anna Martin’s Will when it takes action on the application to
rezone approximately 65 acres of property located at the Northwest corner of Jaeger and Meister
Roads. Based upon current Ohio Planning and Zoning Law, it is my opinion, and you are advised,
that Anna Martin’s Will should not be considered by the City of Lorain’s Planning Commission
when it takes action on the application to rezone the property located at the northwest corner of
Jaeger and Meister Roads.” Also we’ll be looking at the Plot Plan, the Preliminary Plan also.
Which will be two motions.
Mayor:
So, I will limit testimony, I would ask anybody refrain from getting into those specifics about Ms.
Martin’s Will because as you know, we can not take that into evidence in making this decision. If
you want to speak about how bad that would be for the area, how the traffic would pose a safety
hazard, how all those things that come with the development and the zoning would be somehow
harmful to the safety, safe and welfare of the citizens in that area, those are the things that we can
make decision on and take into account. Also in previous developments that have come forward,
through the city, we’ve looked at and required the developers to do things like give money.
Super-K gave $700,000; Wal-Mart gave $500,000 to help with the surrounding areas and
infrastructure, we’ve also used something called Tax Incremental Financing (TIF) which that is a
development tool that we can issue debt to help improve the infrastructure in the surround areas
such as the roadways, things like a water tower, any of the impertinences for infrastructure, the
sewer, water, storm sewer drainage, that would help a development go into it. In the past Heritage
Development did it over at Oakpoint Rd. in the Deerfield Estates, we’re moving through with that
method. We’ve done it with the Spitzer Project as well and the Law Director has also issued us an
opinion on that and it’s a bit lengthy, but Mr. Dobis would you maybe read the number point three
and the last paragraph out of that too, for the audience.
Mr. Dobis:
“From a legal standpoint, it would be problematic if the City required other developers, like
Heritage and Carnegie, to advance monies to the City for development studies and not require
other developers which are working on developments in close proximity to such projects to do the
same. In fact, Wal-Mart recently agreed to pay $500,000 to the City to assist with certain public
improvements. Such payment will not be reimbursed by the City for this project. Further, K-Mart
paid the City $879,900 for its project and such payment was not reimbursed by the City. The
Wal-Mart project is and the K-Mart project was a significantly smaller project than the Liberty
Project which argues for Liberty being required to commit at least as much as these other
developers (if not more). If the City is perceived to be giving favorable treatment to one
developer over another, such actions could create legal issues for the City. To avoid any
allegations of disparate treatment and to protect the City from both financial and safety risks, it is
the position of your legal counsel that Liberty be required to advance $150,000 to the City for a
development study of the Project before any further approvals are given to Liberty. Further, the
City may want to explore Liberty contributing additional funds toward the engineering costs and
other costs that the City may incur as a result of the Project.”
Mayor:
Okay, with that I would ask that the presenters, the commissioners, and the citizens, try to keep to
the point of the zoning on this and try to limit your comments as best as you can to 3 minutes, I’m
not saying that’s the rule but, we have a big crowd and we do not want to be repetitive in a lot of
the messages so please take that into account as well. A few weeks back I spoke before Congress
and they have these little meter lights that tick down how many seconds you have and when that
goes off, your mic goes off. I thought that was pretty neat, I’d like to utilize that at Council
Meetings as well if we could. We’ll try to keep this as organized and professional as possible.
The normal protocol that goes in the order of speaker, will the commissioners, well we’ll give the
developer a chance to present to everybody then we’ll give the commissioners a chance to ask
questions, then it goes to our Council Members, then to Department Heads and then to the public.
And we’ll let everyone in to speak that wants to, and remember when you come to the microphone
please state your name and address for our records and with that said, Mr. Keefe, you’re up to bat
again.
Mr. Keefe:
Thank-you. Well I want to thank everyone for being here today. As the Mayor said we’re here
for the approval of the Preliminary Plan and also the re-zoning for this property. We worked with
Mr. Dobis to make sure our application contained all the items that were required for the
ordinances. I just want to give you a brief overview and then I’ll be able to answer some
questions. Light House Village is located at the corner of Leavitt and Jaeger Roads across from
what is currently under construction, the R.L.R. Office Building. It will be across from where
this new Soccer Academy is and Tower Blvd. will be extended into the project, as sort of the main
entrance into the first phase of the project. I’d like to have Tom Kuluris who’s with Liberty
Development, stand up and give his information that he’d like to present.
Tom Kuluris:
Tom Kuluris, Liberty Development. We’ve got a lot of folks here to talk about the project, I really
just wanted to first say it’s great that there are to many that are interested in what we are doing.
We are bringing a large amenity to the community, it’s a new progressive shopping experience.
But, it is also jobs, and it’s taxes, revenue for the City, but you bring all that together and it really
is something that helps the City go forward in a design that is today. We’ve always been open to
discussing our plans, the design, how it affects the community with the community and that’s with
residents, and with you folks and to date, for the most part I have to say we’ve had really great
communication, some great ideas, which we have incorporated and will continue to incorporate in
our plans. We are really excited to be here, we’ve got an awful lot of interest from some terrific
national retailers that feel that this is a market that will be very successful for them. Home Depot
is here today, they are our first anchor, and there are no rumors about it. They will speak a little
bit for you. They are very excited, we’ve been working with them actually for a couple of years
on this project, and pretty much every face I am looking at looks familiar to me because we’ve
been around for so long. Thank you. I’d like to introduce you to Brian Tondra, he’s going to talk
a little bit about the traffic study that we had done, so that you get an idea of how inclusive it was
and how broad it was. And at that point I think Home Depot’s representative Terry Roswick will
talk a little bit, but we’ll all be here. Thanks.
Brian Tondra:
Hi my name is Brian Tondra, from G.P. Associates in Akron, Ohio. G.P. Assoc. is about a 190
person engineering, architectural firm in downtown Akron. I myself am project manager for site
development traffic engineering portions of the company. We did do a traffic study, thorough
traffic study for this project including the affects of the entire build out of the project, including
the effects of the future Wal-Mart, the build out of Martin’s Development, all the residences, we
took all that into consideration. The improvements that the study indicates needed on Leavitt
Road would be a north bound and south bound left turn lanes on Leavitt Road and its intersection
with Tower, north bound and south bound left turn lanes on Leavitt at its intersection with Jaeger,
a new state of the art traffic signal system at Tower and Leavitt and a new state of the art traffic
signal system at Leavitt and Jaeger. With those improvements our traffic study shows that
acceptable levels of service “C” or better will exist for all vehicles on Leavitt Rd. and Jaeger Rd.
And just to familiarize you with levels of service, a level of service is a grade of traffic conditions
and delays that vehicles experience similar to a high school or grade school report card. A level of
service “A” reflects the best operating conditions, minimal delay. A level of service “F” reflects
the worst, gridlock, not gridlock just sub-standard conditions. And again the improvements that
are required per the study, the north-bound, south-bound left turn lanes on Leavitt both at Jaeger
and at Tower along with the new state of the art traffic signal systems, those improvements will
result in acceptable levels of service “C” or better for all Leavitt Rd. and Jaeger Rd. vehicles. Just
to step back a little here, the study was done to reflect the entire build-out of the 65-acre property.
The study also took into account the effects of Wal-Mart and the affects of Martin’s Run and other
development projects that may or may not be constructed in that immediate area over the next 20
years. So I know that I am taking 100 pages of the traffic study and simplifying it into 30 seconds
to a minute but that’s the just of it. I’d be more than happy to answer any questions as the meeting
progresses. Thank-you.
Tom Kuluris:
I was told that I should give you a little more information, be a little more specific about
something. We have done some calculations and have made it through newspaper or whatever
about the jobs and the tax calculations. I just want everybody to know that when we did the
calculations it wasn’t in house, we worked with the International Council of Shopping Centers to,
as best we could to estimate the number of jobs which based on a complete build-out if we did the
whole plan, there’s 950 jobs. That was based on the type of retailers, the exact plan you are
looking at, the geography, the payroll of $17 million, I’ve got a complete build out, again it was
done based on wages in this area and not just Lorain but this geographic region. The tax revenue
was calculated directly based on your tax rates, whether it’s real estate taxes or payroll taxes.
When we first came out, I think we’ve got payroll taxes based on the salary generations was
300,000 and there was an increase in taxes so that would be 340,000. So that’s actually how those
numbers were calculated, the sales again were calculated, the numbers of employees and the
salaries from an independent research arm of the International Council of Shopping Centers. And
that is very real. This is a project that there is a lot of excitement, we have an anchor here and
there’s more stuff coming and those are actually very good numbers and not pulled out of the air, I
just wanted to make sure that everybody knew that, so if I could I’d like to get Terry Roswick
whose representing Home Depot to talk a little bit about why they want to be here and let you
know about their plans. Thank you.
Terry Roswick: Hi my name is Terry Roswick from Greenberg Farough and I’ll be speaking on behalf of Home
Depot this morning. Home Depot has looked everywhere for about five years now, and
specifically looking in the Ohio market to help them analyze properties do studies and look at
what communities they want to go to. And they saw Lorain as being very good solid community
that is typically under surged by retail centers. And in this market we looked at a number of
different properties and we selected the Liberty Development Group just because of the location of
proximity to the highways. And as this project unfolds I’ll be here to answer your questions, right
now Home Depot will probably be the first major tenant anchor in this shopping center and I’ll be
available here to answer any questions about the store.
Mayor:
Thank-you. Any more comments from your group, if not I’m going to, another comment?
Jeffrey Keefe:
I was just going to say, all the utilities that are going to service the site from are currently in the
street on Jaeger, there’s a sanitary trunk sewer and the water line in Jaeger and Leavitt Rd. would
be looped through our project. We’ll also be providing storm water basins to limit the run off
when we develop the site. And all of that will be approved through the Engineering Department.
I can answer any questions that may come up.
Mayor:
And we do have a letter from Engineering Department, do you want to read that.
Mr. Dobis:
This is in regards to the Engineering Department review of the submission for Planning
Commission’s recommendation for approval, to Lorain City Council, for the rezoning this
property. “Dear Mayor Foltin; The Department of Engineering has reviewed the information
submitted with the above request. If the Planning Commission recommends approval and Lorain
City Council concurs, the developer’s engineers shall meet with the city engineer and other city
departments to ensure construction plans meet the City of Lorain standards for construction, storm
water management and traffic control. Additionally recommendations by the developers traffic
study consultant for roadway improvements are to be constructed prior to the occupancy of the
proposed commercial unit. A member of my staff will be in attendance at the meeting. Sincerely
Patrick McGannon – Administrative Director”
Mayor:
Well Commissioners, do you have questions for the developers?
Jeffrey Keefe:
We have someone else who’d like to speak before they have questions.
Mayor:
Okay, Mr. Phillips, very brief. You sometimes get winded.
Mr. Phillips:
My name is Gerald W. Phillips I’m an attorney and I am representing Liberty Development. I
know this board has seen me before, in maybe a different role in the sense of representing the
residents and the citizen, but I do represent developers. In the same criteria and strictness that I
hold when I represent for residents I do for developers who I represent. And I have reviewed their
submittals; I’ve worked with them with their submittals with Jeff Keefe and the developer. They
have submitted pursuant to your zoning codes and planning codes all the requirements for the
Preliminary Plan 1167.07 and particularly section (E) which deals with the traffic study, they did
submit a detailed comprehensive traffic study that details the origin of the traffic, the effects of the
traffic on the neighboring areas, both as is and on the full build-out. They also indicated the levels
of service in that plan and they also indicated the improvements necessary to achieve those levels
of service as previously mentioned. Also they have submitted pursuant to 1215.03 all the required
information concerning the zoning amendment. This is a Preliminary Plan that’s part of
application process it is not a final development plan. Pursuant to B-3 zoning, 1167.10 (D) talks
about some of the things that have to be required with the Final Development Plan, these are
engineering studies and feasibilities that deal with water, sewer, and street improvement and those
are the things that will have to be met pursuant to the code on the Final Development Plan. I
concur with the Law Directors opinion that the effects of Anna Martin’s Will have no relevancy
and cannot be considered. Mr. Kuluris indicated the extreme substantial economical benefits that
this development will bring to the City of Lorain and the community of Lorain and there are some
differences in connection with this particular development. They do have a comprehensive traffic
study and the improvements based on their plan and their traffic study for the roadways will
implemented and will be put in before the completion of each phase, this is a phased development,
so the traffic improvements will be in before each phase is complete, before occupancy. And I
would hope that the Planning Commission looks favorable on the request concerning the fact that
they have complied with all the requirements, they have submitted the detailed traffic study and
the substantial benefits that this development will bring the City of Lorain and the community,
Thank-you.
Mayor:
Okay, now commission, any questions yet? Mrs. Rodgers, do you want the mic.
Rodgers:
Well I just want to say that my main concern is traffic, in that area and I think with the traffic
study laying out what the concerns are and what the remedies are means that somebody has done a
lot of homework. And I think that is good thing. Of course, our concern is, even though the
residents don’t believe it, the members of the Planning Commission are also residents, we live in
neighborhoods in this community. And we do feel concern for the residents.
Citizens:
We can’t hear you!
Rodgers:
Sorry, I just want to say my main concern is traffic, we do have a lot those concerns covered by a
traffic study, the 2nd concern is for you know, our residents in that area and I point out that the
members of the Planning Commission are all residents, we all belong to neighborhoods and we
understand people being concerned about their environment. We want to be very sensitive to that
and from our drawings we see that Vassar Avenue in that area of course does back up to the
development area and we are very interested in what the buffer area is suggested and provided.
One other thing I want to point out, taking a broader look and if we read the newspaper, we find
that it is being claimed that Ohio is shrinking and that we are not increasing in population and
people in our state, which is going to effect our government representation. We have to be
forward looking for the bigger picture, and the bigger picture does involve development. This
article was in the paper, “Incredible Shrinking Ohio” in which there are only three (3) other states
who they do not project will increase in population, and Ohio is one of those. The other thing I
want to point out that’s current, the council and the city government and county government
worked extensively in working on a development that involved the Jed district, which we
cooperated with adjoining communities to provide services and we would benefit from revenue
sharing. It took a lot of meetings, a lot of discussion but what happened in the mean time the
developer found another location that was ready to go and be developed. So, my concern also is
that if we drag our feet too long and spend too much time on study, study, study and all this, I’ve
said it before, you study it to death, and nothing gets done. If we continue to do that, we are
putting our community in jeopardy and I hate to see that happen and I think we are all concerned
about our neighborhoods, our living environment, but we really do have to look at developing this
city and some changes are painful, some are you know, we really don’t understand why. The
question I always get, why don’t they put it in the Ford Plant, why don’t they put it here, why
don’t they put it in South Lorain. You have to know the realities and the studies of developers,
before you understand why these decisions are being made, I think that’s, we have to take in
consideration the whole big picture and I do plead with people to take this wider view. Thank
you.
Mayor:
Okay, next we have Mrs. Jean Wrice
Mrs. Wrice:
Good Morning. I feel you, but I live on MLK & 21 st so, I’ve been there 40 years, traffic does not
bother me. Sometimes I think about it, I say well maybe I should move when I make 10 minutes
to get out of my drive. Then I think about it, Jean you should be happy that we have that many
people left in Lorain that you have a little traffic jam. Lorain I am saying to you, maybe you don’t
know our nickname, the younger generation called this city Slorain because we always come when
things are already gone. I don’t vote on selfish things, when I make my decision and vote; it’s for
the city, what’s good for Lorain. I’ve lost two (2) children because we don’t have things here for
Lorain. I have five (5); I would like for the other three (3) to remain in the city. We have to have
jobs, maybe they don’t pay as much as Ford, but if it’s jobs that the young kids can work at, pay
for their pictures and graduation or whatever, we got to get busy Lorain, or we all might as well all
go and exit into Lake Erie.
Mayor:
Okay, if there are no comments from the commissioners, I am going to turn it over to Mr. Wargo;
his was the first with his light on.
Mr. Wargo:
Thank you Mayor, I was looking at the benefits that were going to be derived from this area, and I
just wanted to go over some of them here. You’re looking at a $40 million project and the sales
projected at $120 million, the jobs 950, annual real estate taxes $645,000, annual payroll of $17
million and an annual city payroll city income taxes at $340,000, we can’t throw this away. We
have to go out there and bring these kinds of projects into our city. So I am all for this. Thank
you.
Mayor:
Thank you Mr. Wargo, next Mr. Given had his light on.
Mr. Given:
Thank you Mr. Mayor. We’ve been given the information with regards to the benefits of the
project for our community and I think they’ve been clearly defined and accurately stated, and as
it’s been said before in our other public hearings regarding the new retail establishments that are
destined to come to our community, there’s one thing that the City of Lorain lacks, if you truly
look at it, is any store of retail environment. If you want to go to any major grocery store, clothing
store, hardware store, etc. we need to leave the City of Lorain whether it’s Amherst, Vermilion,
Avon or Elyria. So, it’s definitely optimistic as we look at these proposals that people are
interested in coming to Lorain and spending their tax dollars here. Looking at the plan that is
before me, the one thing that I’d like to offer a suggestion, for the Planning Commission to
consider when they move forward and look at hopefully establishing a written developer’s
agreement with the developers would be, when I am looking at the buffer areas and I look at what
was done on other developments that we’ve work with in the past, we worked to limit the
exposure to the homeowners in the area and hopefully soften the blow if they felt they were being
so called violated. On the north and the west side currently on this plan that I have before me it
calls a 50 ft buffer, I think we need to make that 100 ft minimum. We also need to incorporate the
same structures that we did incorporate in the written development agreement with Wal-Mart that
being that also along the northern and western area, full vinyl fencing be included to help the
neighbors as well as addition trees where the foliage is thin if need be. As well as I look at this
and I’ve talked with the developers in a limited basis with regards to the plan just in the hall way,
if they had the plan to lay this out the way they are stating and making it a first class proposal, I’d
like to see extensive mounding be put around the perimeters, similar to the Avon Commons
project so that we truly are not only developing this for retail but it’s also going to be a aesthetic
improvement to the area one which is going to, will also assist them in drawing in additional retail
establishments to the development site so I think that needs to be outline. I think that needs to be
clearly defined and stated to the developers in regards to what the community wants and what the
City of Lorain wants for it’s citizens. And if we would get that, I think if would definitely garner
more support from the community that this is a first rate project and that the developers are
looking at Lorain as a true partner. Thank you.
Mayor:
May I ask the developer are you opposed to extending the buffers to 100 ft, adding the mounding
and the fencing, if it were so inclined to pass this?
Tom Kuluris:
We are absolutely open to talking about the buffer area. My first thought when I heard that was,
it’s almost like you have a choice. If you want trees, leave it in a natural state, or if you want
mounding, we’re open to talking about both. If the code says, just so you understand where we’re
coming from, 35 ft, we put in 50 ft, but if it’s 100 ft that’s something we would live with, I think
we need to talk about whether that’s mounded or whether there’s trees in there. We could mound
it and put trees in there but you won’t have the same natural wooded area that you have right now.
So I think we just have to figure out which way works best. As far as fencing goes it’s the same
thing, I have actually a couple of neighbors who said they want to be able to walk right over and
you know, so we’re open to all of that. I’ve always tried to leave myself open to talking to
anybody about that buffer area and we mean it, whether there’s a decision today or not if there is
something we can do that will make the residents happy, we’re absolutely want to do that. We do
want to partner with your community and that’s a big part of it, I am aware of it.
Mayor:
Mrs. Rodgers, if it’s in relation to this then we’ll get back to Mr. Given, he has a comment I
believe.
Mrs. Rodgers:
We did receive a Preliminary for review purposes only; the first thing I looked at does have a
100ft buffer area.
Tom Kuluris:
We did a lot of different things, we’ve got more plans then I could ever shake a stick at.
Mrs. Rodgers:
So you have considered that?
Tom Kuluris:
Absolutely. Sure. And that’s why I can stand here and tell you that we are open to going to 100ft,
but we need to talk about whether that’s left in a natural state or mounded.
Mrs. Rodgers:
Thank you.
Mayor:
Okay, Mr. Given did you have further comment on that?
Mr. Given:
Yes, just for clarification I agree with Mr. Kuluris regarding that. With regards to what I was
calling out, is I think we definitely need some sort of fencing between the residential and the
commercial areas, so in order to keep the debris out and the plastic bags. We don’t want a fence
similar to what we have at Kmart, where they put it up, it’s decayed over time and no one has
maintained it. That’s why we went to the vinyl fencing. With regards to the mounding I agree
along the northern and western sides we don’t want a buffer as well as mounding because there’s
no sense in clearing the trees to put a mound in, we want to maintain that. Buffering with the
mounding I meant more less along the Leavitt Rd. or Jaeger Rd. site just so that it’s more cosmetic
similar to if you’re familiar with the Avon Commons, I just think it makes it look more of like a
natural setting and a very appealing parking development.
Tom Kuluris:
I agree in Avon Commons they were using a natural topography and were able to create some of
that, physically it might be to do something like that where you really from Leavitt, where we
have so much frontage, it’s not that I don’t that to be a beautiful, that’s the gateway into it, we
want it to be beautiful. Mounding isn’t necessarily the best thing that we could do; in some of
those areas we really have no intensions of touching. There’s a stream that runs through the
corner and we, leaving it natural might be better. But, I’m willing to work with you on that, and
the front to mound it up like that may not physically work. But there’s other things that I’d be
happy to try to work out.
Mr. Given:
You understand what I’m getting at?
Tom Kuluris:
Absolutely.
Mr. Given:
I guess the other thing that we can ask the Planning Commission to look at as well as City
Engineers etc., is when we look at the building process and the codes in regards to what a business
need in terms of parking. I truly believe when we’re developing structures of this magnitude that
we’re over killing it in terms of parking. If you look at the Super-K parking lot, it could be the
day before Christmas and that parking lot is at the most 60% full. And the development plans are
always set that they need maximum parking for the two best days of the year. Well the
community needs to look at the other 363 days out of the year, which we have to look at an asphalt
parking lot. I think it would be beneficial to the community and beneficial to the developers as
well to look at realistic need in regards to what parking is actually required, because that will limit
the exposure for the developer in regards to clearing and asphalt, as well as limiting the impact on
our community with regards to storm water run off, with regards to extensive parking in flat areas
which is going to increase the heat, etc., etc. So while we’re going through the process the
Planning Commission may want to look at what our requirements are with regard to parking to
help these areas out. And if you drive by K-mart you have to admit that there’s over use of
parking, it’s definitely not a view the community wants. I think this developer has stated clearly
in conversation that they want to be a good neighbor and they obviously want to put forth a first
class shopping development for the community and I think it would be a win, win to study those
proposals as well as we move forward. Thank you.
Mayor:
Mrs. Molnar, your light was on next.
Mrs. Molnar:
Thank you Mr. Mayor, I don’t have to echo Mr. Wargo words and certainly do agree with what he
had to say. But I want to go one step further. You know, when you stop and think about 950 jobs
that this will create, plus the 300 at Wal-Mart, which comes to 1,200 jobs, well can we possibly
ignore this with our deficit, which is $2.9 million? And then also you have to stop and think, we
have to date 11,492 children that are living in poverty right here in the City of Lorain. Now those
people can work, and on public assistance we have 6,443 and I believe that we should take this
into consideration, and as long as I am sitting here until the end of year I will be supporting this
project and I will be voting for the re-zoning.
Mayor:
Mrs. Tavenner, you’ve been waiting patiently, you’re up.
Mrs. Tavenner:
I’m so patient. You know there are a lot of concerns from the residents living in the area. I’ve
received a lot of calls; I’ve met with a group of residence that live on Vassar. And their concerns
are the rezoning, but I think we need to touch base on the Will and I do have comments. And the
comment is, seems as if the courts want to put the monkey on your back and then you want to put
he monkey on the courts back. You have the judge who’s saying he’s opened this up but if you
don’t rezone this and the buck stops here, if you don’t rezone this, this property then reverts back
to the court and I think there’s a lot of people hear that want to speak on the court document, so
I’ll turn it over to the public. Thank you.
Mayor:
Mrs. Tavenner, I understand that and respect your thought on that and the buck does stop here as
far as rezoning it. And you are right in what you say there and if this Planning Commission makes
the determination that this zoning is bad, it will negatively impact the surround areas, will cause
burden or traffic problems, is not constant with what we’ve done, then yes it does, but it is not, if
you look at the Ohio Revised Code, we are not here to debate the will and the rights of that, we’re
hear to look at the zoning.
Mrs. Tavenner:
But as I have said this is a re-zoning issue, but you know comments being made about there’s no
other hardware store in Lorain, we have Sears Hardware and we have Willow, and I do my
business at Willow. Thank you.
Mayor:
Well, again I will point out that this Commission is not here to look at how this could affect other
businesses, we had this debate with Wal-Mart and it’s rezoning. Please, and I’ll give the same
speech that I give to all the Lorain people. These businesses wouldn’t be coming here unless the
Lorain people were shopping at it. And do you out there do your shopping at Giant Eagle or do
you go to Apple’s or Fligner’s and go to our hometown grocery, do you go to Lowe’s and Home
Depot now or do you go to Willow Hardware. And there’s still a vast majority of the Lorain
residents shop at those places but again, we’re getting off on tangents and this is the Planning
Commission, we’re set up to look at whether the zoning is proper and I still think we should, if it
looks bad that the zoning is not proper, then I tell the Commission to make their decision based
upon that. With that said, I think the Commissioners and Council have all spoken but, I know Mr.
Prudoff is requested to this Commission to make a presentation to give some of his thoughts. Mr.
Prudoff would you come to the mic. Sandy Prudoff is the City of Lorain’s Community
Development Director.
Mr. Prudoff:
Members of the Planning Commission and Council Members, we too in our department support
this development. We believe it is a very fine opportunity for Lorain; we also have had the chance
to work with these developers and talk with them as well as to look at their traffic study and their
development plan. It is my opinion from our experience in working with K-mart, who came into
Lorain some years ago, that they did a traffic study that dealt exactly with what was needed as it
related to entering their site. The city at that time said that was not sufficient and we sat down
with them and worked out an additional arrangement so that we could secure additional funds that
would permit us to apply those monies towards the improvement of the roadway system that
stretches on either end of that development so that we could improve the public infrastructure. We
did the same thing not too long ago and in the process of working with Heritage, which is now
McGill & Assoc. on Oakpoint Rd. Just step back for a minute as you heard earlier, Wal-Mart was
asked by the City and did contribute approximately 700 and some odd thousand dollars towards
the additional improvement of the roadway system that abutted their property area and stretched
beyond it. The same thing with Heritage, Heritage did advance the City money to do a
development study which will in fact permit the city to make the decision to help pay for the
public improvements just beyond the development site, because although the development site
itself had proper access surrounding it, the impact of that traffic generated by this developer and
another development, but particularly this development will require additional improvements to
Oakpoint Rd. and Cooper Foster as well as civilization and signing. We did the same thing with
Wal-Mart, and Wal-Mart advanced the city a half a million dollars to apply additionally to the cost
of improving Cooper Foster Park Road. We have talked to this development company as you
have heard earlier, we asked them to advance the city $150,000 so that we may complete a
comprehensive development plan which included a traffic analysis and traffic improvements to the
area beyond the immediate access of this development site and that’s important because this is a
regional shopping complex and this is almost a half a million square feet under roof. Take in to
consideration K-Mart, Wal-Mart and the Amherst Plaza this site is as big as those three sites
combined. The traffic generated by this site, the impact on this area stretches in our opinion from
Cooper Foster north to probably Meister from Leavitt Road on Tower to Oberlin from Leavitt on
Jaeger all the way to Kolbe and Kolbe to West Erie Avenue. The impact of the development site
immediately adjacent to this Martin’s Run will create 2,400 new housing units and the housing
area beyond that happens to be Oakpoint Road and many of the people who live there use Jaeger
Road and Kolbe as cross area. Tower Blvd from east to west from Oberlin to Leavitt will also
become a much more heavily trafficked area. Additionally this is a regional shopping area now,
you will have people from Amherst, South Amherst, Vermilion all coming to this area to shop.
We welcome that, that’s good jobs, that’s good opportunity, but what we believe, what I believe is
that this traffic study and this development land study, which we have indicated we wanted the
developer to fund at $150,000, which will permit the city to approach a 30 year 75% TIF that will
allow us to fully improve Jaeger, Kolbe to Leavitt to take a look at the impact of the traffic
improvements required for people accessing this site from the east from Oberlin to Tower, by
Tower to Leavitt and the surrounding areas really is necessitate. I think that’s a comprehensive
land use analysis of the plan for health safety of this community and it is a partnership with the
developer that is necessary. So I would say to you at this point, we have not reached an accord
with the development company; in fact we have our attorneys, city attorneys and special legal
counsel attempting to work with their legal counsel to come to this accord. I would recommend
that even though this is an extraordinary opportunity for the City, it is also an extraordinary
responsibility financially that we hold this up until such time that as attorneys and their attorneys
have a chance to work out this development agreement which will permit us to proceed with
securing the additional tax revenues created by this development to improve the public
infrastructure and its not just streets, its storm sewers, retention ponds, potentially water towers,
that are immediately going to result from this development taking place, probably to a full impact
over from what I can see two (2) years. And again, I support the development, I think these
developers are very fine people, but I don’t think that we should treat them any less than we have
treated the other major investors that have come into our community who we have welcomed and
who have contributed substantially more than we are asking of this company. So at that point I
would ask the Planning Commission to please take that into consideration and I’m available to
answer any questions that you might feel necessary needing further clarification. Thank you.
Mayor:
And, Mr. Prudoff, if I may paraphrase and make sure I’ve talked and I think I have a good
understanding about this. First about how much revenue are you talking will be generated off of
this?
Mr. Prudoff:
A 30 year, 75% TIF should generate 5 ½ million dollars net cash.
Mayor:
We can issue a bond, what Tax Incremental or TIF is for everybody out there, the property taxes
get redirected to the City, the City can then issue debt and build the infrastructure $5 million worth
of infrastructure and that debt gets paid off by the property taxes over 30 years.
Mr. Prudoff:
That’s correct. Or Mayor we may not have to issue debt, we could go to the state infrastructure
bank and get all our money through them and have the TIF as our source of revenue.
Mayor:
So you’re saying that by going along with your idea here, it will inject $5.5 million into the City
that we would ordinarily not receive, that would go to the Amherst School District, right?
Mr. Prudoff:
That is correct. It would also generate approximately $10-12 million worth of public
infrastructure improvements to this area, including the complete reconstruction and widening of
Jaeger Road even, we’re able to help pay for some of the public improvements that this company
has indicated they were going to pay.
Mayor:
How much money are we talking, $12 or $5 million?
Mr. Prudoff:
$5.5 million in tax revenue, but that will permit us.
Mayor:
So the city can get $12 million, that we’ll be able to do, is that correct?
Mr. Prudoff:
We’d be able to do about $12 million.
Mayor:
We’d be able to borrow $12 million from the state.
Mr. Prudoff:
No, let me correct, this generates $5.5 million worth of borrowing power, but it also, on Kolbe,
since it is a location eligible for Federal Highway.
Mayor:
We could use that to leverage for our Federal money. So this will generate $5.5 million, well we
could borrow $5.5 million from the state to do $5 million worth of road improvements for the
whole area there and what would be paying back would be the property taxes that are generated
from the development and that’s exactly what we’re doing with Spitzer and Deerfield as well.
Mr. Prudoff:
Correct.
Mayor:
Everybody understand on the Commission?
Mrs. Rodgers:
Didn’t he say $10 - $12 million in infrastructure?
Mayor:
But, what he is saying is that we can leverage that to apply to the Federal Government. Kolbe
Road is a federally eligible road, like Cooper Foster is, to get Federal Funding, we’d have to come
up with the 20%, so what Sandy is saying we could use part of that to about $2 million of that
toward redoing all of Kolbe Road and that would be our match with Federal Government.
Mr. Prudoff:
Kolbe Rd. re-improvement is approximately between $5 and $6 million. 80% of that would be
picked up by the Federal Government, we would have to pay up front the Engineering cost at our
own cash and then the 20% local share could be generated and paid through the TIF. And again I
had our Traffic Engineers look at this traffic study and again it is a very finely tuned as it relates to
entering and exiting this development area. It does not take into account and it does so with
Cooper Foster other than by percentages based on some national percentages of compounded
growth of traffic. However, I believe that, that maybe short sighted in that we really need to have
our own traffic engineers through this development study to work with their traffic engineers to
make sure that the abutting or surrounding improvements, that are key access to this development
site are also improved. We had half a million dollars from Wal-Mart as an example, they’re going
to donate the land to do their own improvements right in front of the store. We are using a federal
source of funding along with their half a million to improve everything from Leavitt all the way to
Oberlin. So, again I’m not opposing this development, I just believe that we need a little
encouragement from this Commission and Council to have the developers take another careful
look at working with us in terms of letting us go forward with development study.
Mayor:
Using the tax incremental financing and the 30-year TIF, which would require this development
study, would generate, would give us a borrowing power of $5.5 million.
Mr. Prudoff:
That is correct.
Mayor:
That would be paid off over 30 years and the State Infrastructure Bank; we’ve had a lot of success
in utilizing that to borrow from the state, that that would be paid off strictly based upon the
property taxes from this project.
Mayor:
Those property taxes would be property taxes that would normally be going to Amherst City
Schools and the City of Lorain would not get that.
Mr. Prudoff:
That is correct.
Mayor:
And you could leverage part of that money to apply to the Federal Government for doing Kolbe
Road, redoing the whole thing, probably like we did with Colorado or Oakpoint.
Mr. Prudoff:
Or Cooper Foster.
Mayor:
Or Cooper Foster, and leverage and get another $4 million if we put about $1 or $2 million of our
money from the TIF into that project.
Mr. Prudoff:
That is correct.
Mayor:
Do the Amherst School System; do they have any say so in this?
Mr. Prudoff:
No. As long as we have a development study, which this is the key here, the development study,
we really need 60 days to get this development study done and come back to this body.
Mayor:
Now Sandy are you saying that 60 days from now, that development study will be done and we’d
be able to move forward with this project?
Mr. Prudoff:
Yes, we’d be back before the Planning Commission with the zoning ordinance and with the
development study.
Mayor:
So, that’d be July. Okay, now I will hold this subject for debate a little bit later cause I think
there’s going to be a lot of discussion and the public’s been waiting patiently. But I will give, if
you have a specific question on what Sandy’s saying here, if Commission or Council if you don’t
understand it but, I think I’ve laid it out pretty clearly, what Sandy is proposed here. Let’s get the
publics..
Tom Kuluris:
I need to say something.
Mayor:
I want the public to speak first, and we’ll get back to you, okay, because then Sandy will say
something and then lights will go on here, the public’s been sitting her for an hour, we’ll get back,
I think this will be a debate that may take awhile, so we’ll get back to it. Thank you very much,
Mr. Prudoff. Now I will, would like to give the public a chance to speak. Please come up to the
mic if anybody has anything to say.
Renee’ Garcia:
My name is Renee’ Garcia my address is 4251 Kenyon Court in Lorain. I understand and I’m all
for the City of Lorain having business, we need jobs, I’m all for that, but I’m against where they
want to put it. There’s already too much traffic on Leavitt Road. And if you just want to get up
and go up to Drug Mart, it takes you at least 20 minutes. And I don’t know about this traffic
study, how much it’s costing, we don’t need a traffic study, all you have to do is go out there and
take a drive. And I am worried about in the future, ambulance, anybody else getting through. And
also, the whole reason I purchased my house was for the backyard. It’s private, the woods are
there, well they’re not gonna be there anymore and this is why I am upset. And when it rains, my
backyard gets flooded, what’s going to happen when that gets turned into asphalt? When they’re
talking about putting in some kind of buffers or sewer, are they talking about the residential area
too, for their yards?
Mayor:
Well I believe I can answer that, they have to go through the City Engineering Department and
have everything approved on their drainage plans and in the past the drainage as improved in areas
in the plan they put forth should alleviate flooding that you may have through retention basins
releases and new storm sewer systems that will follow that. They have to go through the City and
ensure that this will not cause additional flooding problems not only for you but for anybody,
similarly with their sewage system and the water system. So, yes so they can not and that’ s our
responsibility as the City, cause, do anything that would cause improper rain run off and in fact the
plans that our Engineering Department’s past history has been to develop a road plan that will help
those problems. For example, people on St. James Place if you, anybody goes back their, their
whole backyards in the spring are under water, well they’re building retention ponds on the WalMart site to allow for the drainage and that problem according to our Engineering Department
should be alleviated.
Renee’ Garcia:
I just wanted to make sure that was going to be addressed and also on the fact about the buffer
systems, you know that it’s far enough from your backyard where you don’t lose that privacy.
Mayor:
Well right now you’d be getting 50 feet and I’m kind of inclined to, I like what Mr. Given talked
about the buffer, 100 feet is not a bad distance, especially with some wooding and a row fence on
top of that. It certainly is, the City’s code is 35, but 100 I’m inclined to if we were going to move
forward to throw that in there.
Renee’ Garcia:
I just feel so great about this; I said if it goes through they can just buy my house too, because I’m
sorry I don’t want all that in by backyard.
Mayor:
We understand. Other members of the public?
Jesse
Guardado:
Mayor:
My name is Jessie Guardado, I live at 2625 Vassar. Before I make my comments, I’d like to ask
some questions; does the Planning Commission have a Mission Statement that they abide to?
Mr. Dobis, do you have the book here that states out the goals and missions of the Planning
Commission?
Jesse
Guardado:
Doesn’t any Planning Commission know it, with out looking it up?
Mayor:
Well I could tell you what my personal goal
Jesse
Guardado:
No, I would like the official mission statement that you have to abide by.
Mayor:
Well it’s, we’re governed by the Ohio Revised Code that sets forth what the Planning
Commission’s duties and responsibilities are.
Jesse
Guardado:
And what is that?
Mayor:
Mr. Dobis, do you have that?
Mr. Dobis:
Well this board is a recommending body, it’s a two-fold they have to make a recommendation for
the Preliminary Plan to council as well as the re-zoning of that property.
Mayor:
And for my personal goals of the Planning Commission as Chairman, my mission and goal is to
promote development within the City while protecting the health, safety and welfare of the
citizens, is what we have put a non-official in our operating budget that Mr. Joel Provenza has
stated in there for the development.
Jesse
Guardado:
Mayor:
Jesse
Guardado:
Okay, as a personal note I just find it a little ironic that the Mayor sits on the Planning
Commission, that’s a personal note.
That’s the Ohio, believe me I’d much rather be somewhere else right not. But, the Ohio Revised
Code forces me to be the Chairman of the Planning Commission.
In this whole line of events, I find it very interesting how these events have led us to this point.
It’s interesting how the courts rulings overturn themselves, I feel because of it money. It’s
interesting how an addendum was *inaudible* to accommodate upcoming judgment, in other
words setting a patch. It’s interesting how a local paper overturns its opinion in its editorials from
earlier editorials. It’s very interesting that there are many that feel that this event today this
meeting and what is and should be represent and have some kind of accountability is all for not. I
feel that your decisions have already been made as it’s been noted and in sort of some legal matter
that might come up, I’m not a lawyer so I don’t know what is available, your decisions will not
falter, especially by matters that may be ethical, morally, or just the right thing to do for it’s
citizens at hand and past citizens and founders of this county or city. Well with that said, let’s see
what happens with my commentary. Whether this council wants to admit it or not, I find it
interesting that the Lorain City Officials allow themselves to be played as pawns in this game
between whose responsibility and whose back this decision is being played on, and I have to resort
back to the probate court ruling that in the first part “it is therefore ordered that the conditions and
restrictions placed on the probate court by this court in its order date August 23, 1994 are hereby
removed subject to the conditions set forth in this order” and I will drop down to where it applies
Mayor:
Sir, we are not going to discuss the terms of
Jesse
Guardado:
But it involves the City of Lorain Council and it involves the Planning Commission.
Mayor:
Please
Jesse
Guardado:
**inaudible** concerning the development of a property except for such conditions, restrictions
and zoning ordinance **inaudible** the City of Lorain.
Mayor:
Sir, I’ll give you 30 seconds to wrap up.
Jesse
Guardado:
It is under that whether you like it or not, and whether you want to be a pawn to this or not, now
Mayor:
Jesse
Guardado:
Sir, please, we are going to have you escorted our unless you bring it to point of what you want,
what your opinion is, you don’t need to insult the Council Members that are here or the Planning
Commission. Please do it in a professional manner, if you don’t like the project, state it
specifically and clearly and again I asked everybody to get their points across in an expeditious
manner, please stick to the point and the zoning of what we are legally here to do, I’ll give you 30
seconds to wrap up and if you aren’t done by then we have police officers who will escort you out.
Thank you very much, that’s appreciated. I think the biggest point that I can bring up, whether it’s
the traffic, whether it’s the jobs, if the City of Lorain needs it, fine, but not in that location and the
biggest reason is you’re losing a lot of tax dollars for your children of City of Lorain. Who is your
future, put it on the children, the tax money is not going to the education, you’re losing a lot of
money, an awful lot of money. You could put this complex in a position where 100% is going to
the City of Lorain and with the over all comprehensive studies that are being done I’d like to know
and you should know exactly where those studies and how they come up with those numbers in
order to make an education and wise decision. Because a lot things were promised with K-Mart
and yet a lot of us have backed off from that.
Mayor:
Jesse
Guardado:
Sir, a final closing thought.
Closing thought is, whether you feel this is necessary at that location, I don’t see it. You’re losing
an awful lot and you’re losing a lot of backing from the residents of a lot of people. And other
things is that you can put this in a place that will benefit Lorain City, who’s in charge here, the
Council, the City or the developers.
Mayor:
Thank you very much for your statement sir. Mr. Becker
Jeff Becker:
Jeff Becker; 2028 Homewood Drive. I went through this Wal-Mart, it’s a shame that the Planning
Commission has to listen to people when they can speak at Council Chambers, when they go into
Committee Meetings, to give the prejudice of what this Company should do and shouldn’t do. I
don’t think at all that the Commissions should face the agony of people that are against this. I feel
that the City of Lorain can speak at these Committee Meetings as well as they did with the WalMart fiasco. You know we demanded and demanded and changed and changed for two years we
listened to this propaganda about a business coming into town. We are not going to have the
industrial outlook anymore, if we don’t suffice the reality **inaudible** Home Depot just told
you, we look at the City of Lorain as being a capable citizenship to make this thing work. Why
would we throw them out? You’re figuring this root of not being responsible to citizenship of
Lorain only to the west side, a part of that town, no different then what happened at Wal-Mart, the
few citizen, they’re thinking about a referendum. Well I’ll tell you what Mr. Phillips, you’re
running a referendum one side of town and right across the street you’re with the people. Mr.
Phillips, I don’t know where your mind is or where your wallet is.
Mayor:
Well Mr. Becker, let’s not get personalities involved.
Jeff Becker:
Oh, just so, you know, okay, he knows,
Mayor:
Let’s just stick to this project.
Jeff Becker:
Well he’s working the project; he’s working the project.
Mayor:
But let’s stick to the project and the zoning.
Jeff Becker:
Then you should look at the zoning and you shouldn’t be listening to all these other things that are
got involved at this meeting. The zoning is a proper effort and when you send the zoning, if it’s
okay, it goes to the Council Chambers and Council Chamber will bring up all the items that these
people want, buffers, traffic, right, isn’t that right.
Mayor:
And can I, that’s what I want to bring up, you are right on the money, this is not the end.
Jeff Becker:
It’s not a debate.
Mayor:
And it has to be by law, there has to be a public hearing scheduled.
Jeff Becker:
I understand that.
Mayor:
And there will be debates with City Council in the future as well.
Jeff Becker:
That’s right, and we’ve already locked it out 60 days already with Mr. Prudoff. We’re already in
60 days arrears of getting these people in here. Thank you.
Mayor:
Next.
Steve Bajcer:
Yeah I’m Steve Bajcer of 4260 Miami Avenue, and I’m for it. I am for this project.
Mayor:
And you live right behind it.
Steve Bajcer:
Yes and I have a list of why I am for it, but I can touch on a few things. First of all, a lot of these
people live on Vassar, they’re back by the woods, but Miami is a dead end street, we pick up all
the trash on Miami Avenue. All the people, the good neighbors and stuff I’m not saying
everything, but they dump at the end of Miami Avenue. It cost me with the permission of the
church $4,000 to get a bulldozer in there and Mr. Soto my neighbor who lives across the street
from me to clean it up because we were getting flooded out and we were having all the problems
with the dumping and the kids. The church experienced problems with the neighborhood children,
when they went back there and set the things on fire. They had parties back there, the police were
out there numerous times at 3 o’clock in the morning when I’d be leaving for work because people
think that Miami Avenue runs straight through and you end up with a lot of intoxicated drunk
drivers down there. Not a big block but a couple times. There’s a sewer that nobody, nobody
ever addressed, the city, the church or Ann Martin, or the YWCA. Right on the end of Temple
Avenue and I showed the builder, there’s a sewer that the children can go right inside that sewer
and walk right down the street of Miami Avenue. The other mayor was out there, that’s where the
flooding is coming from, the church knew about it, I asked their permission because the city
backed off they said, “no that’s the church’s property”, so I got the permission from the church to
block that sewer down there, because it is, my son’s a Lorain Fire Fighter, and they know, they
know there is a sewer down there. Another thing about the street, they should widen that street
because you can’t get a fire truck down Miami Avenue. But, every other street around that area
was blacktopped except Miami Avenue. So, I’m for this project, I’m for these people to open this
thing up, and beautify, because the woods is what? Yeah, it’s beautiful and stuff, but you know
what, it’s 2005, it’s time to move on, it’s time to get rid of the woods.
Mayor:
Thank you sir.
April Peters:
Hi my name is April Peters, I live at 4043 Woodstock Drive in Lorain. I am for the project. I was
born and raised her, I went to school here, and I live here, I raise my children here. With the job
that I have I travel around the world and around the Country, I see many things, different
developments, new and upcoming things, I still want to live in Lorain. But with that I do and
would appreciate and would like the amenities that I do have while I’m at work, when I come
home to my home and to my children I do not want to drive to Avon and spend my money, I pay
taxes here, I want to spend my money here. I use the different local businesses, I get my car fixed
at a local business, I don’t drive out to Avon and to some of the other cities that I have to shop at, I
would appreciate being able to shop and spending money in the city that I pay taxes and I raise my
children in and I’ve grown up in. I’ve had the opportunity to leave and I chose to stay here and I
appreciate your decision, I know you’ll make the right one for our city.
Mayor:
I’ve been waiting for you Milt
Milton
Wampler:
Troy
Thompson:
My name is Milton Wampler; I live at 2509 W. 38 th Street. I remember the hogwash they give the
citizens when they built West Gate at 21st & Leavitt, who has been an eye soar for the last 10
years. I remember the hog wash that they gave the people in South Lorain with Fairless Drive
Shopping Center there. I thank Mr. Campana for bailing us out at Hill’s old shopping Center in
South Lorain; I also thank Mr. Campana for taking the buildings on Leavitt Rd., which was the old
Clarkins Store. This paper everyday that is printed and I haven’t seen anyone in favor of this
development. I urge the Planning Commission to deny at this point, the opportunity to rezone, if
they want to develop a shopping center, do it at West Gate where they need it, or South Lorain. I
live in this development and I raised my children there, and this is a beautiful development with a
gorgeous road on Jaeger with all these trees. I’m not going to talk about Ann Martin’s Will I can
assure you, you may here more from this down the road. Thank you Mr. Mayor.
Troy Thompson, 1746 West 12th. I approve this development as well as I think a lot of the people
in this room do this afternoon. And, I want to applaud all the leadership of the city for looking
forward with vision and clarity for the better of the city of Lorain. I want to also point out a fact
that a lot of people are ignoring but, if somebody could clarify the zoning of the property that
we’re discussing, I think it’s needed, what is it now?
Mayor:
It is now General Business.
Mr. Dobis:
B-1 Special Land Use.
Troy
Thompson:
So it is commercial?
Mr. Dobis:
Yes.
Mayor:
Parts of it.
Troy
Thompson:
Part of it is commercial, so all that needs to be done is from what I understand is to approve the
sale of the lumber, which by the way you can’t purchase a piece of lumber in the City of Lorain,
there’s no, let’s clear this up. And, you have to go to Elyria to purchase these items and I look
forward to the day that I can shop within the parameters of the City of Lorain. Thank you for your
time.
Mayor:
Thank you Mr. Thompson.
Julie Baker:
Julie Baker 2339 Oberlin Avenue and I am for the project, I’ve been hearing several comments
around me how, just go ahead and go to Home Depot in Elyria, the whole point of this is to bring
economic stability to Lorain. Earlier in a meeting a variance was denied because the possibility of
putting a traffic light up was not an issue because it would cost $35 - $40,000 to do it, which the
City of Lorain does not have. So, instead of us going to Elyria to do all of our major shopping and
our major eating or Avon Commons to do our major eating or shopping, we need to bring that to
Lorain, because then that statement of “we have no money” can not be made, because we have it
here in Lorain and so that’s something we really need to address, and the other point is you know
people are saying things like, where the money is going to go, if any money is made it’s going to
some place that puts back into the community of Lorain, who reaches out to the inner City of
Lorain on a weekly basis, on a daily basis to bring them up, to raise them in an establishment to let
them know that they are better then the projects. And bringing in jobs, training them, teaching
them, is going to bring the mentality that Lorain has of being ghetto, it’s going to raise the bar, it’s
going to raise the standard. I grew up here I graduated from Lorain High School, I’ve been here
for along time, and it has been going down hill. It’s time to step up to the plate, all the money is
going to go to Lorain because the establishments in Lorain, so saying that you know money is not
going to be going all to Lorain is not a true statement and the other thing is, if this property is not
sold, what if the people who own the property now because it’s their property, decide to cut all the
trees down, people are talking about views, they don’t like the view in their backyard, if they
decide to cut all their trees down, they still have no view.
Mayor:
Thank you.
Joe Thayer:
Joe Thayer 4667 Crossings Trail, just wanted to state on record I am 100% for this project as
everybody is aware, I was out front protesting the rezoning of Wal-Mart, but with this the
companies, the businesses that are going to be coming into this proposed development here and
stores, they two things, offer the people a living wage which that Wal-Mart does not, and they also
offer them decent benefits which Wal-Mart did not, that’s one of the reasons I’m for this and I do
agree the city needs these jobs and this tax money, I just wanted to put that on record.
Mayor:
Home Depot, I know I’ve been told by many, is very union friendly.
Joe Thayer:
Yeah, with construction of its stores, yes. And although the employees in some of these
businesses may be non-union like Wal-Mart, the corporations offer them a lot better living than
Wal-Mart Corporation can offer their employees, that’s where I stand.
Mayor:
Thank you.
Micah Stepp:
Micah Stepp, Ave. Step, 7014 Oaktree Drive North. My wife is originally from Lorain; we’ve
been here 7 years. I was here whenever Ford Plant closed; I know we have a lot of industries
that’s closed or moving. We are a resident here, I want to see some value to my home, I’m tired of
my friends in Avon that live less then 60 seconds from the Avon Commons and they saw an
immediate increase in their property value. I want to see some value to my home, I’m tired of
when ever I talked about I live in Lorain, I kind of get a sympathy look. I am very proud to live
here; I live in a nice area. I moved to the area, one because of the school district, but I am a citizen
of Lorain, I am proud to be here, I will shop there, I don’t have to go through the eye soar and the
head ache of going up 57, snaking around to go to Home Depot, I can just go right down here, my
friends from Vermilion won’t have to go to Sandusky, they can just shop right here. So, I am in
support as well as my wife and the future citizen here.
Mayor:
Thank you.
Lois Rudnik:
Lois Rudnik I live at 4100 Kenyon Avenue. How can we discuss how much income is going to be
coming from these jobs when we don’t even know who the stores are, other than Home Depot?
Do you have a comment on that?
Mayor:
Well again, we’re here really, we wanted to talk about the jobs and that may weigh on the minds
but we’re here to look at if the zoning consistent. These are just projections of if they sold all the
parcels.
Lois Rudnik:
How can you project it when you don’t know what kind of stores it is. Maybe it’s going to be a
little local florist goes in there that pays minimum wages, maybe all the rest of the stores other
than Home Depot will pay minimum wage.
Mayor:
Well I think Mr. Kuluris stated the, based on the Association of Retailers or whatever.
Lois Rudnik:
Yeah, but you’re talking about one store, this little corner here, you’re not talking the rest of this
whole area, but the out stores.
Mayor:
Well I’ll tell the Commission and Council to take your questions into consideration.
Lois Rudnik:
Another question is, who’s going to pay for all this traffic lighting, if we could not but in one
traffic light, we can’t afford one traffic light at Oakpoint Rd. then how can we afford all these
traffic lights.
Mayor:
Developer, we certainly won’t be.
Lois Rudnik:
The developer will pay for it all? ‘
Mayor:
Yes.
Lois Rudnik:
Thank you.
Mayor:
Or if we go Sandy Prudoff’s route, we’d be able to also use some of that $5 million to do those
types of things.
Lois Rudnik:
Is this $5 million a guaranteed thing that we can do that?
Mayor:
Well we’ll get into that debate in a minute, I want to keep giving the public the right to debate that,
but there is a track record of that occurring this other projects and successfully happening, so it is a
mechanism with the law.
Lois Rudnik:
What happens to the tax money after 30 years, it goes to Amherst?
Mayor:
Then it goes back to the Amherst Schools. Only the property taxes, the income taxes will continue
to come to the City of Lorain.
Lois Rudnik:
Yeah, but the property tax is the main thing.
Mayor:
Well $360,000 in income taxes were projected.
Lois Rudnik:
If those stores remain open.
Mayor:
True. You’re right.
Ronald Tennant: My name is Ronald Tennant 307 Root Road so this development is not in my backyard, I do have
several reasons for objecting to it. One of them I am obviously not allowed to discuss, the rape of
Ann Martin’s will, which that was a really big thing, but that’s been precluded so we’ll go on,
looking in the Planning and Zoning Code in the City of Lorain Section 1167.11, recommendation
by the Planning Commission under subsection (B) the last sentence in that says, well I’ll read the
whole thing “Each individual unit, as well as the total development, can exist, as an independent
unit capable of creating an environment of sustained desirability and stability or that adequate
assurance will be provided that such objective will be attained” this is the important part “the uses
proposed will not be detrimental to present and potential surrounding uses, but will have a
beneficial effect”. Now if you know anything about nature, and I can’t quote you the exact
figures, but every tree recycles so much carbon dioxide and puts oxygen back into the atmosphere.
Each tree provides so much cooling in an area. If all these trees are cut down, that oxygen is going
to go, and that’s not going to be recycled.
Mayor:
I’d like to make a point; they could cut down all the trees right now without coming before us, so.
Ronald Tennant: Not according to the will, the will if it reverted back to the church, I would assume that the will
would be back in effect. Which it said that the trees had to remain.
Mayor:
I’ll let you continue with your point.
Ronald Tennant: Okay, thank you. When you pave over that much of an area with blacktop that reflects a
tremendous amount of heat back into the atmosphere. I’m very familiar with these types of things
because for 10 years I was Property Maintenance and Building Inspector in the City of North
Olmsted, which is probably the most retail intensive area in northern Ohio, I mean they have plaza
after plaza after shopping center so I am familiar with it. And it is not good to cut down that much
tree wooded area and pave it. I understand we do have a study on the traffic impact which was
one of my questions, one of my big questions is the drain water also and you say that is going to
be handled, well I have a concern about that, I don’t live in the area, but I know now when you get
a heavy rain that Tower Blvd. becomes like the Grand Canal in Venice. I don’t know if the storm
sewers can carry that theory. If they do put retention ponds, I would hope that they are fenced for
safety and that they’re maintained so that they don’t become mosquito-breeding places. Of
course, the impact on the abutting neighborhood is going to be severe; they’re going to have lights
blaring in their backyards, they probably are going to get some fumes from all the cars and
whatever might be there. I would recommend there, like I said I have a little experience as a
Property Maintenance Inspector in commercial areas and a lot of experience with fences and if
they are going to put a fence, whatever is put in, this should also be a clause in that ordinance,
stating that that fence will be maintained in good order, professionally and having a vinyl fence
doesn’t mean it’s not going to need maintenance, eventually they do and they get broken and so
forth.
Mayor:
I would ask if you could start the conclusion, the concluding part, I’ll give you about a minute to
wrap up.
Ronald Tennant: Okay, I certainly will. Lorain needs development, I’m not against development in Lorain, I’m all
for it. I came to Lorain over 50 years ago, it was an industrial powerhouse, there were all kinds of
heavy industries here. Broadway was a retail haven; I mean you could go down Broadway and
buy anything, of course that’s all gone. Retail is the frosting on a cake, it’s the top of the pyramid,
you need heavy industry, medium industry, diversified commercial to support retail. Where are
the people going that work here, what are they going to do go buy from Wal-Mart and Wal-Mart
buy from them, it doesn’t make sense to me, to put this in, there are other places to of course that
has been explored, that they could put it in the City of Lorain. And the developers have all these
bright, bright, predictions, the only thing I can say is I once knew an old farmer he could describe
his dead horse in such glorying terms, you’d want to buy, it’s still a dead horse, thank you.
Mayor:
Thank you sir.
John Evanson:
John Evanson 6150 Park Square Drive. I’m the manager of Land Acquisition for Oster Homes;
we control the 500 acres due west of this project. We worked with the proposed buffering and
also the traffic control devices that will potentially be installed, we believe it will be a great benefit
to future homeowners that we have out there at Martins Run. Thank you.
Peg Asensio:
I just have a couple of questions; I’m really confused as to what consideration you are taking into
account. Certain things just being brushed aside and other things you are taking into account. I
guess I still don’t know what your group is basing its decision on.
Mayor:
Based upon what the law says we are to look at this for zoning, is the zoning conducive and that
gentleman that was reading some of the code there, is the zoning conducive and consistent with
other zoning throughout the city with other projects that we’ve ruled on. Is it negatively impact
the health safety and welfare of the city in general and the surrounding people, that is the
parameters that we are suppose to be.
Peg Asensio:
Okay, and Mr. Miller earlier alluded to, I’m sorry I lost my point, Oh I’m sorry I’m Peg Asensio
2615 Vassar Avenue. I can’t find what Mr. Miller said now that I was going to ask about, Oh he
said about the zoning, he said why do we have zoning, he said it was to protect areas from the
wrong kinds of things going in there. Well this whole area is surrounded by residential, there
really isn’t anything but some office building in the area. So I don’t understand the reason for
having zoning for residential if you can change it and make it into something, this is going to
become. It really isn’t conducive to the residents in the area. The other thing is, Mr. Kuluris said,
more stuff was going to be developed on the rest of this; all we know is Home Depot so far.
Again, what is the other stuff that’s going to go in? And, we have our income level here can not
compare to what it is out in Avon, where Avon Commons is, and this is suppose to be like that.
Mr. Kuluris also told us that it would be scaled to Lorain, I don’t know what that means, either he
or the realtor Mr. Goodman told us that, that it would be scaled to Lorain, again what does that
mean? Does that mean we’re going to get lesser stores than are out there? We really have no
answers outside of Home Depot; I don’t know how you can make an intelligent decision at this
point on this project. Also, the jobs, everybody wants jobs for Lorain. We have a poverty level
here and we’re going to keep those people in that level. These jobs are not going to lift anybody
out of that level. Which one of the people making these decisions here makes that kind of money,
but it’s good enough for the rest of the residents of Lorain. And, I hear a lot of Amens and
clapping out there, we haven’t addressed the fact that the church that owns the property is also
going to make $2 million profit off of this, and that’s why they are so in favor of this.
Mayor:
We have a few more citizens who want to speak.
Betty Slogan:
My name is Betty Sloan 292 East Marina Parkway. I moved her 29 years ago from Colorado and
we love it here. We want to see new development, I’m tired of going to Avon Commons to have
to shop, I want to come here, to make it a shorter trip every time I go out to go shop. I think it’s a
great idea, 1’m 100% for it.
Mayor:
Thank you. We have a few more people here.
Kay Wampler:
I’m Kay Wampler 2509 W. 38th Street.
Mayor:
If I may interrupt, if there’s anybody else who wishes to speak, would you get in a line, for the
those people who are there.
Kay Wampler:
I am opposed to this situation, and my husband, that wonderful man that just spoke here has a
health condition, I am concerned about he health risks of the citizens. He has COPD and
Emphysema and he was just on oxygen and now he’s off oxygen, I am so concerned about this
that I seldom have my lawn Chem-Lawned because he cannot be exposed to all these chemicals
and fumes and pollution. And the other risk is how am I going to get him to the hospital, if there
is traffic that is going to be, that the ambulances will not be able to get through. I am very
opposed to this and I think that we as taxpayers should be considered having our lives at risk, for
accidents and transportation to the hospital, thank you.
Mayor:
Thank you. And I asked people, you see we have quite a few people, please keep it brief to the
point, we are starting to cover similar subjects, so we’d like to move on, please state your name.
Pam Hakaim:
My name is Pam Hakaim 4216 Princess Anne Ave. in Lorain. I am for this project; my husband
and I have owned and operated a business in Lorain since 1982. I myself am guilty of going to
Avon Commons and to do my shopping and I want to stay here in Lorain and I am very proud of
Lorain, thank you.
Mayor:
Next, we’ll move it right along here.
Frank Starman:
My name is Frank Starman I live at 1512 West 21st Street. As I drive around the city and my car
hits pothole after pothole and ditch after ditch because the city can’t take of the streets because
they don’t have the money, I kind of wonder why when we can millions and millions of dollars to
replace roads and fix roads around the project we would be object to the project. Also, if more
income is generated through both payroll taxes and sales taxes that we can use to do things like,
take care of the roads. I don’t know why there would be an objection to that; it’s just plus for the
city. Plus we’re going to bring people from outside of the city into the city to bring us money,
instead of trying to come and we’ve heard this poor people don’t make money but you still try to
suck the money out of them by having to raise taxes and things like that. Why not except the other
people who will say, I’ll give you our money and give it to your community and as far it goes for
schools, people of Lorain understand, this was brought up, you won’t get any money that goes to a
different school systems outside of where the vast majority of where our children go to school, so
take that into consideration. And there is no retail job, any retail job generally that pays to raise
families of 4, 5 and 6, that’s the nature of retail. There are a few retail jobs that do, so this idea
that we need to have jobs that pay $15 – $20 - $30 an hour with benefits, that is a pipe dream, it
will never happen because the people who sell retail, we wouldn’t be able to afford their
merchandise and so to try and lay it on low wages, it’s the nature of retail business. And my next
comment may get a boo, but I don’t any job created and brought to or business brought to Lorain
by the union.
Mayor:
Okay, moving right along.
Ron Wooledge: Ron Wooledge 3506 Leavitt Road. I guess I’d be remiss if I didn’t get up and speak as you are
aware of who I am, I own Willow Hardware. I was a little bit taken by a couple of the comments
that we’re not servicing the area very well by Mr. Home Depot, and also a lot of people here who
haven’t shopped at Willow Hardware, I hope you take the opportunity to do so. Anyway, the only
comment subject to me coming here today and I understand that it is a very touchy subject for a lot
of people, it certainly affects our store. But it is true what one gentleman said and I’m going to
repeat this and sit down, retail is not going to create jobs that are going to move forward, it’s the
frosting on the cake the gentleman said, this is not the biggest job that you need in the city. I’m a
retailer, we service you people, we service the people that work at Ford, we service that work at
the other factories and that’s the way it is folks, more retail is not going to provide substantial jobs
here in the city. Thank you very much.
Sandra Russ
Good noon, I’m Sandra Russ, both me and my husband have been born and raised here in Lorain,
so we have seen the good times that Lorain once had. Your Ford Company was mentioned; it’s
truly a shame all that property is going to be soon vacant. All of the tax dollars and all of the
income, instead of putting a dab here and a dab there on every street corner. Yes it goes back to
Ann Martin’s Will, I’m now afraid to have a Will made in the City of Lorain. And it’s a shame to
tear up this nice piece of land, I live just north of it and I really don’t want to have to smell the
warm asphalt in the summer, I don’t want to see the lights in the sky at night or smell their
dumpsters, nor have to wake up to truck drivers delivering products during the night. I like the
nice fresh air smell coming out of those woods and the quiet peacefulness that’s why I built there.
And I am sorry I live at 4013 Stanford Avenue, thank you.
Mark Sloan:
Mark Sloan 292 East Marina Parkway here in Lorain. I’ve lived her for 29 years, I grew up in a
beautiful city, go west young man go west Forest Greedy said that in 1863 and I grew up in
Greenwood, Colorado, that city had every amenity you could ever think of. I moved her when I
was 19 years old and I was shocked when I began to make friends because they said oh you want
to go out to eat, let’s go to Great Northern area, that’s where all the restaurants are, like what we
don’t have somewhere within a few minutes of our homes, no there’s nothing in Lorain to eat at,
to shop at. I was conditioned as a young adult that if I wanted anything I had to go outside of the
City of Lorain. That my friend is very sad, young lady you were correct when you said Lorain
was Slorain. It is time for the revenue, for the taxes to come into this city and this become Go
Lorain. Thank you.
James Nelson:
James Nelson 420 Hafely Drive, east side. There’s a reason why it’s going in on Leavitt Road not
Colorado, not Broadway, not Ford Motor Co., cause that’s were the traffic is going, that’s where
people want to be, that’s where other stores are going it makes sense and also, my wife shops and
takes all my money to Avon. I’d rather support the city I live in let’s make some sense here. I
understand it’s going to stress Willow Hardware out a little, okay Wal-Mart comes in and it
stresses out the little retails but it also provides major jobs. Home Depot also provides major jobs,
income for the city. How many times do I have to here Lorain is poor, oh we got the ghetto on the
west side, we got the ghetto on the south side, we got campito, come on we can clean this up with
some income, right?
Linda Hanna:
Linda Hanna 1505 Nichols Avenue. You know when you think about this, there’s one thing that
comes to my mind, if you keep on doing things the way you’ve always done them, you’ll end up
with the same results. Living in a Lorain that looks to me like we’ve been making some bad
decisions recently. There is as everyone says, not any business here, no restaurants to go to.
Lorain citizens go elsewhere to shop. Why not make Lorain the place to come to shop, have other
people come in here to spend their money from Vermilion, from Amherst so that we get the taxes,
and our children and grandchildren can be employed here and can benefit by a city that is growing
with property values growing, as you can see I am in total agreement with it. Thank you for your
time.
Mayor:
You’re the last three that will be speaking.
Crystal Ward:
I am Crystal Ward 1951 Homewood Drive. I am in favor of the rezoning, I’ve lived in Lorain all
my life and I love this city and I trust that the decision that is to be made will be in favor of the
people and their needs and that’s all, thank you.
Ken Garrison:
Ken Garrison I live at 2719 W. 38th. I grew up in Avon Lake; we didn’t really have a lot of good
things to say about Lorain. I moved here the first time about 20 years ago, everybody said, “don’t
move to Lorain, your property values will never increase like everywhere else”. I removed to
Lorain 16 years ago; I bought a house on 38 th 4 years ago. I am looking forward to what I
perceive as my property values increasing, I see very luxury homes go around Avon Commons, I
don’t see people worrying about decreasing their values. Again, I am in favor. Thank you.
Mayor:
Thank you very much.
Ken Garrison:
She indicated that I work at Church of The North Coast, I do, but I’m here because I live her on
West 38th Street.
Margaret Molnar: I live at 3275 Reid Avenue; I’m against the project. I think we need a larger plan in the City of
Lorain and I think we need to compliment what’s going on in the rest of the county instead of just
replicating it.
Randy Cooper:
Hi I’m Randy Cooper I live at 3261 Pole Avenue, less than 1 mile away from the development.
I’m a regular patron of Willow Hardware it’s one of the few places you can go and buy one screw.
And get the kind of help that you get there at Willow, which you would not get a Home Depot by
the way. I’m in favor of the project and I will shop at Home Depot because there are some things
you get at Home Depot that you can’t get at Willow Hardware, so I’ll be shopping at both Willow
and Home Depot, very much in favor of it.
Unknown
Lady:
I’d like to ask Home Depot’s starting salary, what are the benefits and starting wages at Home
Depot
Karen Callahan: I’m Karen Callahan I live at 1011 King Avenue Lorain, Ohio I could tell her it’s probably $7.00
an hour. I work at service jobs, I have my whole life, I’m 38 years old for most of that time since
I was 20 I worked at service jobs. I would need, Mrs. Molnar mentioned you might get 1,200 jobs
if we have Wal-Mart and Home Depot, that’s more like 600 jobs, because you need two of those
incomes to purchase a house. A vast majority of the people that work at those stores who are my
friends, need two incomes to make a living, so those 1,200 jobs is really only like having 600 jobs,
unless maybe you’re upper management. I don’t want pvc fence a vinyl fence I don’t think
*inaudible* that has *inaudible* biodegradable products like Mr. Givens wanted. The $5.5
million that people keep referring to that we could have a loan comes from $645,000 property
taxes that we’d be gaining from property taxes every year for 30 years, so again, we aren’t going
to see the property taxes. Again, $645,000 you get per year from the property taxes apparently
from Home Depot are going to pay off a loan for $5.5 million that will probably only improve four
roads, Jaeger, Tower, Leavitt and Kolbe, not all the other hundreds of thousands of roads that all
the residents in the City of Lorain live in. It won’t repair the roads in South Lorain, Western side
of Lorain, Eastside of Lorain. Again, so *inaudible* $120 million dollars a year have so low of
income tax to pay, that’s pretty interesting. I have shopped at Wal-Mart; half an hour is not too far
for me to drive to. I have shopped at Home Depot, but not too much, I would not want to live by
either of those stores they’re kind of an eye soar. I technically don’t use the stores; usually you
can order something by catalogue or again go to your local area stores for something. The reason
they can offer things for cheap prices is because they don’t pay much. I would like for the
development of this city but not at the expense of my quality of living or the environment. I also,
to make a point at Home Depot try finding a wool rug or a cotton rug, they’re all synthetics,
they’re all supporting the oil industry in a sense because of what their products are made of, even
the rugs that we stand on are synthetic underneath is probably foam padding, you got to realize
what you put a cost on and I put a cost on human life. Again I’m not really for it, I don’t see it
benefiting our city and half an hour is not too far to go and I’ve driven to the City of Elyria for 15
years almost and it takes me half an hour to get there, depending if I hit the traffic lights on 58 just
right or not. Thank you.
Mayor:
Okay Mr. Kuluris come up to the mic please, and before we ask you the question, I thank the
public for their input and I think we gave everybody more than ample time to state their thoughts
and opinions. The way I’m sizing things up, based upon the discussion it seems that the Planning
Commission Members seem pretty favorable of this. We’ve heard some Council Members be in
favor, we heard one who’s against. It’s kind of going to come down a lot, to whether it’s going to
incorporate Mr. Prudoff’s plan and idea of the $5.5 million, which enable us to do the Tax
Incremental Financing. However, Mr. Prudoff stated that he needs 60 days to get that
Development Study done, and from what I understand between the Law Director and Mr. Prudoff,
that we cannot pass this and wait for that Development Plan to be done, is this right Mr. Law
Director, if it is we cannot move forward with that process?
Mark Provenza: It’s my understanding it’s going to compromise the ability to be able to get the TIF.
Tom Kuluris:
He didn’t say yes or no.
Mayor:
Well, and we’ve asked other legal council too, it certainly would preclude us from moving
forward from being able to get the 30 year versus the 10 year TIF. So with that being said, the big
question that I think Mrs. Rodger’s said she wanted to hear from the developer as you heard her
speak in favor of it and some of the other Commissioners, is that acceptable with, Mrs. Rodgers,
was that your questions?
Mrs. Rodgers:
Yes I wanted to hear from the developer.
Tom Kuluris:
Sixty days, we made this comment over and over again; we are absolutely want to cooperate with
it is only better for all of us, if we can basically do more with the money that’s available. And
frankly taking something that we had planned on spending money on ourselves, using tax dollars
that would go to Amherst City Schools and being able to use those over the 30 years to do road
improvement that goes beyond our needs, certainly still helps us and I have no reason to want to
impede that. I have continuously said that, it’s great for everybody, it doesn’t hurt us. We’re
being asked for $150,000 to contribute towards that study, never said that we wouldn’t do that.
I’ve continuously said timing is extremely important, even thirty days really pushes the start of
this development off a year. Home Depot would tell you that if you’d like to ask them. So, we
have, we would be more than happy to put some kind of a contingency or a cooperation,
something into this that, would allow us to reach a development agreement with you, where we
would contribute that money to that study, that helps the city. But, it really can’t come to the
expense of pushing off this development a year because that’s really, what happens. So, again if
you want, if we go beyond here, if we get today’s approval and we sit down and we do a
development agreement it includes that we can make it contingent upon that, that’s fine.
Mayor:
And Mr. Phillips, we know the arguments here and I’m suppose to be with the Clergy Association,
I’m already running late. They’re expecting me at Church of the Redeemer; I think I can sum up
the position to this Commission and to Council the best, because I’ve been part of these
conversations for a greater part of yesterday on this matter. The decision that’s going to be before
you in this Planning Commission will be either to give Mr. Prudoff the sixty days to do the study,
or wait you have an option of voting this down, of saying no you don’t want this and then or
recommending to Council that this should not go through. That’s option one, of course, option
two is, just voting it in and letting them move forward, then there is option three, which is Mr.
Prudoff’s which is holding the project up 60 days which would give Mr. Prudoff the chance and
believe me we will hold him to the fire, his feet to the fire, to get that done and if this Commission
did that then Mr. Prudoff better have then done in 60 days and then say we will bring that back
and give the developer the indication that we would in-fact pass this in 60 days if he has a
development plan and gives us the ability to move forward with the Tax Incremental Financing in
the $5 million in infrastructure. The down side of Mr. Prudoff’s plan is you heard it right from
Mr. Kuluris that it will maybe stop Home Depot from coming here at the very least it would put
them into the next construction season at the very least of it because by the time we waited 60
days, it’d be July it wouldn’t be before Council until after the August recess in September and
then the people would have a right to referendum it in the next election which would not be until
the Spring and so we wouldn’t be seeing potential ground breaking. That is what this Planning
Commission is faced with I don’t think if, Mr. Phillips I’ll give you the mic, but I don’t think
you’re going to add anything to the argument that I haven’t already heard and if you really want it
I will but I’d really like this Commission to make its decision based upon those facts.
Mr. Kuluris:
Delaying us sixty days seriously jeopardizes this project, we are more than willing to work out a
development agreement with you and no one has been able to tell me that you absolutely can’t do
this zoning, nobody can tell you without, absolutely tell you that that TIF that they want to do,
which I am more than happy to work with, and we can make this a part of this project if you’d
like. No one can say that you can’t vote on this today and still do the TIF without being absolutely
sure of themselves.
Mayor:
Mr. Prudoff in very succinct terms if this Planning Commission had another alternative which was
to pass this zoning, contingent upon a development plan being completed, could the city move
forward with the 30 year Tax Incremental Financing
Mr. Kuluris:
With our $150,000.
Mayor:
With Mr. Kuluris offering $150,000 to do so. I mean just in the simplest terms.
Mr. Prudoff:
I’ve discussed this at length with special legal council, if this Commission passes that zoning we
have to eliminate that site from the targeted area, this site is a requisite area in order to secure the
necessary designation of a blight that gives us the TIF. So the answer is, and I have been guided
by special legal council is that if the Planning Commission approves the zoning, I cannot go
forward and secure a 30 year TIF, the city could possibly do a 10 year 75% without that but it does
not rise to the level of securing the additional money needed to do this improvement, these
improvement correctly so, all I’m saying to you, based on legal advice, that emphatically has been
told to the developer by me and we had the blight study consultant and the development study
consultant available and he did, once you pass that zoning, you create designation on that site and
it cannot be used to go forward and get the necessary approvals. I’m just giving you my best,
we’ve been working on this for months and I believe.
Mayor:
I think the point is clear. So, let me reiterate and if anybody disagrees here are our options, vote it
down, vote it up as is, or option three vote for support with giving Mr. Prudoff the sixty days
saying that if this, giving the developer the nod that if the development agreement is back before
us in July that we in-fact are approving it, after hearing all the evidence before you today.
Mr. Kuluris:
There are very technical differences in voting on a preliminary plan and zoning. We don’t happen
to agree with Mr. Prudoff either way, the project and any real estate taxes fully developed brings
$340,000 to the income of the city, that’s still a benefit and there’s still 10 year tax abatements to
go for if I’m wrong, I just haven’t been able to be proven that I’m right, but regardless I still think
that if we vote against moving forward today we jeopardize the project and I’ve been told that as
late as recently as just before this meeting.
Mayor:
So Planning Commission you’ve heard it right from the horses mouth, you run the risk if you wait
the sixty days for Mr. Prudoff of possibly losing Home Depot as I said before of having that be
pushed into next year or them, basically from a Zoning Commission stand point of them not
wanting to rezone.
Mr. Phillips:
There is a fourth option okay, this is what you did at Wal-Mart, you approved their preliminary
plan and rezoning subject to a development agreement which indicates that they would contribute
$150,000 towards the road improvements, we don’t have a problem with that because you didn’t
hold Wal-Mart hostage by saying contribute the money before the approval, we don’t have a
problem with that option, in the sense that
Mayor:
They gave us a half million dollars, Wal-Mart.
Mr. Phillips:
You don’t have that half million in your coffers do you; you’re not going to get that until the road
goes forward and they contribute. It’s contributed in the future.
Mr. Prudoff:
That’s not so.
Mr. Phillips:
And we were at a meeting on April 28th where it was indicated by all legal council that the
rezoning wasn’t contingent upon the study and the TIF financing. I have a project in Garfield,
where the property have been rezoned and they’re going in for TIF financing on Urban Renewal,
and it didn’t affect it, it didn’t affect.
Mr. Kuluris:
Here is a very passionate person and he knows how
Mr. Phillips:
Mr. Prudoff’s comment is not correct.
Mr. Prudoff:
Well that’s his opinion.
Mayor:
What’s the wishes of this Commission?
Mrs. Rodgers:
If you were here for the Zoning Board work, you know we were influenced by a report from our
police department about traffic on West Erie and Oakpoint Road, I am usually very uncomfortable
in going against our city advisors, who deal with this stuff day after day, they know the city, they
know the codes and so forth. I find it hard to believe and I have gone head to head with Mr.
Prudoff before, but I find it very hard to believe that anybody knows the requirements under the
Community Development Federal guidelines things, he’s been doing this a long, long time and if
he says that we can’t go for the TIF if the property is already rezoned, I don’t believe he would
make that statement, he has no reason to make that statement, because I believe he wants this
project. So at the same time as I said I hate to study things to death and dragging our feet, but my
feeling is that we have to listen to our closest advisors and hope that it comes out alright. I want to
say to the developer we welcome your plan, we want to cooperate with you, but we do have to
look at our road structure and Mr. Prudoff in the past you know has found programs that helped us
finance things that we would not have had if we had to get it from the General Budget. So rather
reluctantly, I feel that I’m going to vote to put this off for sixty days.
Mayor:
Do we have a second to Mrs. Rodgers motion, but Mrs. Rodgers would you add that upon the
completion of the development plan, that you’re doing that with the intent to pass this in sixty
days?
Mrs. Rodgers:
Yes.
Mayor:
Okay, so we have a motion from Mrs. Rodgers.
Mrs. Wrice:
I’ll second it.
Mayor:
To wait sixty days and to move forward and pass this with the development plan at the July
Meeting. Do we have, and Mr. Dobis is that a proper motion.
Mr. Dobis:
No, I was going to reiterate something, there’ll be two motions made, one for the preliminary plan
and one for the rezoning.
Mayor:
Okay.
Mr. Dobis:
You can still use the same stipulation.
Mayor:
We use the same motion for each one; we have a motion from Mrs. Rodgers and a second from
Mrs. Wrice. Mr. Dobis please take a roll call vote.
Ayes: -5Nays: -0Mayor:
And now we have another and again with the assurances that we are in favor of this project but
want to have the development study done prior to that, Mrs. Rodgers, that was for the preliminary
plan and now this is for the zoning. Same motion.
Mrs. Rodgers:
Same motion, this is to hold off rezoning the property for sixty days until we get the
developmental agreement.
Mayor:
Okay, do we have a second?
Mrs. Balough:
I’ll second.
Mayor:
Second, Mrs. Balough for the second there, Mr. Dobis.
Ayes: -5Nays: -0Mayor:
All right July 6th, I’m off to the Church of the Redeemer, I’ll be back in an hour and a half for
those who need to speak to me. Take care.
Meeting adjourned:
_____________________________________
Chairman, Mayor Craig Foltin