UNIVE RS IT Y O F DURB AN -WE S T VIL L E
DO CUME NT AT IO N CE NT RE
O RAL H IS T O RY PRO JE CT
" VO ICE S O F RE S IS T ANCE "
INTER VIEW EE : YUNUS MOHAMMED
INTER VIEW ER : M NTS ODI
DATE :
27 S EP TEMBER 2002
P LAC E :
UNIVER S ITY OF DUR BAN -W ES TVILLE
--------------------------------- ---------------------------------M N: Good m orni ng and wel com e t o t he Docum ent at i on C ent re.
Thi s i s anot her epi sode i n our Oral Hi st ory P roj ect . Today
we are bl essed wi t h t he presence of Mr Yunus Moham m ed.
S i r, good m orni ng and wel com e t o UDW .
YM : Good m orni ng.
M N: Mr Moham m ed, i f we m ay st art .
W here di d i t al l begi n?
W here were you born?
YM : I was born i n J ohannesburg, i n a suburb cal l ed J eppe.
M N: W hen was t hat ?
YM : l 950.
M N: l 950.
M N: C an you t el l us about your parent s?
YM : W el l , m y parent s, m y m ot h er’s nam e i s Am i na. My fat her’s
nam e i s Ism ai l . J a, I t hi nk m y m ot her, I t hi nk, cam e j ust
from Indi a, I t hi nk i n t erm s of t hat Nat i onal i st Governm ent ,
t he l ast few bri des, I t hi nk i n l 948. S o t wo years l at er, j a I
was born. My fat her was a sort of sm al l ret ai l er. He ran a
sort of grocery and t hen l at er on a crockery ki nd of shop.
J a, so t hat ’s hi s background.
M N: The fat her?
YM : The fat her, no, m y fat her, he's S out h Afri can. You know,
he, I t hi nk he m ay al so, i f I recal l correct l y, m i ght have
been born i n Indi a, but I m ean he, because m y granny was
l i vi ng here, m y grandparent s and I t hi nk m y, probabl y m y
1
grandfat her cam e, m y great -grandfat her, but t hen I t hi nk,
m y grandm ot her m ust have gone back t o Indi a, so he was
act ual l y born t here and t hen cam e back when he was about
one or t wo years ol d, so you know effect i vel y he j ust ki nd
of grew up i n S out h Afri ca.
M N: Do
you
know
anyt hi ng
about
your
grandparent s'
background, who t hey are, where were t hey born?
YM : J a, no, no, I do know - I’ve act ual l y been t o t he vi l l age,
you know, from whi ch I suppose t hey cam e. I t hi nk, m i nd
you, bot h m y parent s cam e from t he sam e area.
It ’s an
area, i t ’s around a ci t y. It ’s cal l ed Baruch. You know i t ’s
bet ween Bom bay and Del hi . If you’re goi ng up on t hat
rout e, j ust before yo u com e t o S urat , and so, j a, I’ve been
t o t he vi l l age and you know I’ve grown up, m aybe j ust t o
t el l you one anecdot e, i s t hat , I m ean, I, al t hough I can’t
speak, wel l I suppose I can, I’m sort of qui t e rust y i n
Guj arat i , but , you know I grew up i n a, i t ’s a very sort of
ex t ended
fam i l y
set -up,
you
know,
and
my
great -
grandm ot her was al i ve, I t hi nk for t he fi rst , t i l l I was about
fi ve or si x -years ol d, and m y granny and m y aunt y, i t was a
hom e i n whi ch we spoke Guj arat i . I coul dn’t speak Engl i sh
wel l when I st art ed school , i n fact , you know. And so, I say
when I went t o t he vi l l age i t was about 1967/ 68, when I
was about 17/ 18 -years ol d, and I l ooked, you know i n t hose
days, can I refer t o you, Vi no. Vi no woul d know, you know,
t hat was t he days of t he Hi ppi es , and I t hi nk, you know, i f
you can i m agi ne, I had t hese deni m j eans, j a, you know, i t
was di rt y, a j acket and a bi g beard and very l ong hai r, and I
ended up at t hi s vi l l age, because I was goi ng t hrough Indi a.
But t hey were very surpri sed, because m y Guj a rat i was
fai rl y fl uent at t hat st age, you know and so, I now spent
about a week or t wo weeks t here, you know, but i t was j ust ,
j a, i t was a sort of qui t e an ex peri ence.
2
M N: How m any are you at hom e, I m ean your si bl i ngs?
YM : W el l , no, I’ve got no chi l dren .
M N: No, at hom e.
YM : You m ean m y brot hers and si st ers. No, I’ve got t wo
brot hers and t wo si s t ers. I’m t he el dest .
M N: C an you t el l us m ore about your fam i l y? How was i t l i ke,
how was i t , as you grew up, I m ean, your fi rst m em ori es of
your fam i l y. How was i t l i ke at hom e?
YM : W el l , m y fi rst m em ori es were, as I sai d, I grew up i n t hi s
ex t ended fam i l y set -up, but i f I descri be t he envi ronm ent i n
whi ch I grew up, i t was an area, you know whi ch, I
suppose, because i t woul d have been t he earl y ki nd of days
of form al apart hei d, i f I was born i n ‘50, you
know,
so
because t he Nat s cam e i nt o power i n ‘48. S o i t was a very,
t here was, you know, i t was not a - t he race i ssue di dn’t hi t
m e because t here were, wel l I suppose i t di d l at er, but I’m
sayi ng t hat t here was poor whi t es l i vi ng ri ght opposi t e.
There was a ki nd of hot el , wi t h peopl e st ayi ng, and you
know, down t he road t here was sort of di fferent peopl e. S o
i t was a m i x ed race ki nd of envi ronm ent t here, you know.
It was becom i ng a ki nd of l i ght i ndust ri al area, as I grew
up, so we pl ayed i n t hose st reet s t here. One nex t t o m e was
a col oured fam i l y, you know, so, you know I grew up and
sort of pl ayed i n t hat ki nd of envi ronm ent , whi ch, you
know was very di fferent . I suppose i t woul d be l i ke,
suppose C at o Ma nor, or som et hi ng l i ke t hat , i f you t ake t he
Durban envi ronm ent , i n t hat cont ex t , j a.
M N: How was J eppe, I m ean, i n t erm s of i nfrast ruct ure, i n t hose
days?
YM : J a, wel l , I m ean l ook, t he poi nt i s t hat t here were, t he
dwel l i ngs we l i ved i n were fai rl y ol d, ri ght , so, I t hi nk i f
you m ust , rem em ber J ohannesburg was onl y founded i n
1886, so i t was st i l l qui t e a young pl ace, but , I m ean, t he
3
chi l dhood m em ori es were t hat you st i l l had, you know
horse cart s, you know horse -drawn cart s, you know, and, so
t he st reet s, I m ean i t had cars and so on, and I t hi nk by
about , when I was about t en - years ol d, t hey sort of, wel l
t hey were di m i ni shi ng, or decl i ni ng usage of t hat , you
know, t hey were t here.
But i t was, you know, t he area
where I st ayed, t he st reet s were t arred and so on, by t hat
st age. I m ean J eppe i s onl y about a ki l om et re from C arl t on
C ent re,
if
you
t ake
t hat
as
t he
ki nd
of
cent re
of
J ohannesburg, and you know, t he st reet where I l i ved i s on
C om m i ssi oner, j ust off C om m i ssi oner S t reet , you know. S o
i t ’s very near t he sort of, wel l t he heart of t he ol d, I
suppose t he current C BD, you know, but t hat ’s where i t
was.
S o t hat i s t he area, but as I sai d, t hat area, at t hat
t i m e, even now, I m ean i t ’s now, t here’s no resi dent s i n t he
area where I used t o l i ve, I t hi nk because t he propert i es got
sol d and I t hi nk peopl e woul d have been m oved out ,
because of ei t her t he Group Areas, or because of t he
rez oni ng i nt o a l i ght i ndust ri al area.
M N: C an you t el l us about your st art i ng, I m ean your school i ng.
W hi ch school and t h e l i fe at school , how di d you fi nd i t ?
YM : J a, I went t o school , i t i s cal l ed Gol d S t reet P ri m ary
S chool . That was about , wel l t hat ’s act ual l y nearer t owards
t he cent re of J ohannesburg, ri ght , but a bi t on t he sout hern
si de.
J a, I used t o wal k t o school d ai l y, i t was about , j a,
al so j ust a bi t , j ust under I suppose a ki l om et re, roughl y
t hat we used t o do. And wel l i n t hose days i t was from
Grade l t o S t andard 5.
It was a co -educat i onal school .
I
com pl et ed, j a t hat school i ng by 1963, I com pl et ed S t andard
5, I st art ed i n 1957, and t hen I went , t hen I t hi nk by t hat
t i m e, [ because of] t he effect s of apart hei d, so t here was
onl y one school i n J ohannesburg, whi ch was i n Fordsburg,
and t hat coul d not be cont i nued, ri ght . I t hi nk t he sort of
4
Indi an, not onl y t he Indi an C ongress, but al l t he C ongresses
j oi ned t he Afri can Nat i onal C ongress, ot hers had st art ed a
C ongress school of som e ki nd, but i t never got [ goi ng] , by
t he t i m e I was ready t o go t o school , I don’t t hi nk t hey
coul d carry on and t hey were not al l owed , so you had t wo
choi ces.
You had t o t ravel , you know, ei t her t o Lenasi a,
whi ch was on t he west ern si de, or t o Benoni , and t hose
were t he onl y t wo school s. S o J eppe i s on t he east ern si de
of J ohannesburg, so I j ust el ect ed t o go t o Benoni ri ght . S o
t hat was, j a I t hi nk, t hat ’s when, I t hi nk m y, sort of
pol i t i cal consci ousness began t o awaken, ri ght , because I
had t o get up at about four, fi ve i n t he m orni ng, and cat ch a
t rai n at hal f -past -si x , ri ght , fi ni sh school at about t wo,
t hree i n t he aft ernoon and t hen i t was a wal k t o t he st at i on
from hom e, and t hen anot her, sort of qui t e a di st ance from
t he Benoni st at i on t o t he school . J a and so, t he poi nt i s, at
t hat st age, j a I coul dn’t afford, sort of bus fare or anyt hi ng,
so I used t o j ust wal k, you know t h ose di st ances, up and
down.
But I t hi nk what , I suppose what , why I not i ced
t hat , what I suppose began, one of t he sort of fact ors, was
t hat when you were ri di ng back at t hree, four i n t he
aft ernoon, you know t he rai l way l i nes run al ong al l t hese
whi t e su burbs, bet ween J ohannesburg and Benoni and you
see al l t hese ki ds pl ayi ng soccer and rugby and cri cket i n
t hose green fi el ds and you know; you get hom e by about
four, fi ve o’cl ock; you’re ex haust ed; and t hen you’ve j ust
got t o get down t o eat ; and t hen st a rt wi t h your hom ework;
you know, and t hen i t ’s t he sam e sl og everyday; you know,
so com pared t o ot hers who are goi ng t o school on t hei r
doorst eps, wi t h al l t he faci l i t i es. S o, j a i n t hat sense, you
know, t here was no ki nd of, t he ki nd of l i fe, t he ful l l i fe
t hat you have, you know, i t was j ust confi ned, you know, t o
t he st udy sect or. J a, and t hen, what had t ranspi red was t hat
5
by, I t hi nk by about , I com pl et ed m y S t andard Ei ght . W hen
I was doi ng m y S t andard Ni ne, I t hi nk a l ot of m y fri ends
l eft , ri ght , a nd t hen, I suppose I was j ust , I suppose, m aybe
one of t he t hi ngs t hat
l eads t o becom i ng pol i t i cal l y
i nvol ved i s, I don’t know whet her al l t he ot hers were
rebel s, but I suppose you’re j ust a rebel - you don’t - and
t hat i s what I was, I suppose, m aybe I sh oul d have sai d,
wel l m ake t he com m ent , t hat i t j ust appl i es t o everybody,
but i t appl i ed t o m e, and t hen, what happened was t hat I,
you know, because of al l m y fri ends l eft , but I was al so
get t i ng sort of bored, ri ght , so I used t o t ravel t o Benoni
and com e back, but I used t o t ake t he hom ework from m y
col l eagues, ri ght . I’d end up i n school about t wo or t hree
days a week, t he ot her t wo days I was j ust ki nd of l oafi ng,
basi cal l y. Then I had t hese fri ends. They deci ded t o st udy
t hrough Dam el i n, because, t he opt i ons, at t hat t i m e, was
when you were, because i t was t wo years away, you know,
because I woul d t hen have m at ri cul at ed and t hen i t was a
quest i on of, where were you goi ng t o go t o uni versi t y,
ri ght . At t hat t i m e we had a, I suppose t he predecessor t o
t hi s i nst i t ut i on, whi ch was S al i sbury Isl and ri ght , and I
wasn’t t oo keen on sort of goi ng t here, and you know, so,
t here was real l y not hi ng and we were l ooki ng at overseas,
sort of overseas opt i ons.
S o we ended up si t t i ng i n t hi s,
t here was a sort of U ni t ed S t at es Inform at i on S ervi ce
(US IS ), i n t he cent re of J ohannesburg. S o I sat t here, read
m agaz i nes, coffee, you know, occasi onal l y go and end up
wat chi ng a m ovi e, you know, i n t hose days, we used t o cal l
t hem bi oscopes, you know. My parent s di dn’t kn ow, ri ght ,
and t he poi nt i s when, you know, you becom e l i ke a ant i hero i n your cl ass, you know, so everybody el se says, “No,
he’s si ckl y and he’s got ast hm a" and al l t hat when I’m not
t here, you know, so t hey prot ect you i n som e ki nd of way,
6
you know, and nobody found out .
But t hen, you know, I
real i sed, l ook you know, I’m not fool i ng [ anyone] .
My
parent s woul dn’t have known. My resul t s were fi ne, you
know, because I was st i l l st udyi ng.
at t end form al cl asses.
I j ust di dn’t need t o
W hat I deci ded t o do, m y fri end
sai d, "l ook why don’t you j ust , we’re wri t i ng Mat ri c"
because t hey deci ded t o condense t hat , you see, t hey were
st udyi ng t hrough Dam el i n. Thi s i s about - j ust aft er J ul y,
August . S o I sai d okay. Then I sai d, "okay, l et m e go and
confront m y pare nt s." Because I don’t want m ake t hi s t ri p
now t o Benoni and back everyday, and get up at si x -t hi rt y
i n t he m orni ng, I’d rat her spend t he t i m e st udyi ng. S o I
went t o m y parent s.
I sai d, "l ook t hi s i s t he t rut h, ri ght ,
t hi s i s what I want t o do, and I want t o t hen go st udy
overseas, and I'm goi ng t o do m y Mat ri c i n t he nex t t hree
m ont hs." And t hey sai d, "You're craz y. S o you m ust carry
on.” S o I sai d, “l ook, you can send m e t o school , I’m goi ng
t o l eave and I’m not goi ng t o, m y heart i s not t here.”
So
event ual l y, I was abl e t o persuade t hem , and I di d t hat , t hen
I wrot e
in
a
way t hat
I,
sort
of
I got
som e
sups
(suppl i m ent eri es), you know. I sort of wrot e and I passed
t hree subj ect s and I di d wel l . Then, at t he sam e t i m e, I
m ust have wri t t en t o about , you kno w, I don’t know, t ens
of uni versi t i es, a num ber of t hem i n t he S t at es, for
schol arshi ps and so on, and obvi ousl y, t hey al l pol i t el y
decl i ned.
You know ex pect i ng t hat . My Dad sai d t o m e,
"l ook t he onl y pl ace t hat you can go i s P aki st an."
S o, I
sai d, "fi ne , as l ong as I can get out of t he count ry" I
t hought t o m ysel f. S o t hat ’s when I went . I went t o
P aki st an for, i t was i n 1968. S o I com pl et ed - because you
see t he years are al so di fferent . W e have a cal endar year. I
t hi nk everywhere i n t he nort h, i t ’s u sual l y aft er t he sum m er
hol i days, you know.
7
M N: Di d you m anage t o do, com pl et e your Mat ri c?
YM : Yes.
M N: You di d your sups.
YM : Yes, I di d t hat i n March. You see, so I wrot e i n Novem ber,
you know, t he si x subj ect s.
I got , I can’t rem em ber how
m any, but I got som e sups, and I passed som e, but I woul d
have passed. I woul d have had t o pass enough t o wri t e t he
sups and t hen I got t he sups, and t hen I had a Mat ri c, ri ght ,
and t hen I went . Now, you know, i f you, i n al l t hese
overseas pl aces, t hey have 0 -l evel s and A -l evel s, you know,
so what I had t o go and do i s t he A - l evel s, so I di dn’t need
t he equi val ent of an ex em pt i on, because i t woul d have been
t he sam e, i t doesn’t real l y m ake a di fference, because I
don’t know what t hey have t hese days, but I m ean t hat i s
what t hey had i n t hose days. S ee when I got - shoul d I go
on t o P aki st an or do you st i l l want t o t al k about S out h
Afri ca?
M N: No, I want you t o t el l us, can you t el l us m ore about t he
fri ends, who hel ped you t o l oaf?
YM : To ... [ i nt errupt i on]
M N: The ones who gave you not es, who hel ped you t o dodge.
YM : S orry, I can’t rem em ber, t he nam es now. You know, t o be
honest wi t h you, I j ust l ost cont act wi t h a l ot of t hem ,
because t hey're based i n J ohannesburg, j a, but l et ’s see i f I
can rem em ber. You know, I can rem em ber t hei r faces and I
know t hat , because, you know, i n J eppe, j ust t o t el l you,
what used t o happen, i s t hat , we used t o l i ve behi nd shops,
qui t e oft en, you know, so I rem em ber t hat hi s brot her had a
t ai l or shop, and I used t o end up, because i t was down t he
road from m e, you see.
S o you know, i t was m ai nl y t he
persons, you know one, part i cul ar fel l ow t hat I rem em ber,
but I can’t t o be honest , I can’t rem em ber hi s nam e.
8
M N: Now, what al so i nt erest s m e, i s t hat you were doi ng your
S t andard Ei ght i n Benoni .
YM : Then I com pl et ed t he S t andard Ei ght .
M N: You com pl et ed t he S t andard Ei ght ?
YM : J a.
M N: Now, I want t o know, what was pushi ng you? I m ean, what
was your l i fe l i ke at school , or was, what you onl y hat ed
t he m ere fact t hat you onl y wake up at h al f past four?
YM : J a, wel l l ook, t he poi nt i s t hat agai n, what has, wel l l et ’s
j ust say t he physi cal envi ronm ent t hat was bad, was, you
know, I j ust rem em ber, we had, say when I was i n st andard
si x , t wo years earl y, we had snow, al ri ght . W e were si t t i ng
i n t hi s prefabri cat ed cl ass, t he wi ndows were broken, i t had
a cem ent fl oor.
Now when you get up, t he poi nt i s, when
you get t o t hese st at i ons, t here’s j ust cem ent fl oors,
al ri ght . Trai ns are not al ways on t i m e. S o you’re st andi ng
t here, ri ght .
Your f eet are l i ke froz en. You si t i n t hat
cl ass, when i t ’s snowi ng, and t hat wi nd.
S o, you know, I
m ean, l i ke I used t o have col ds and fl u qui t e oft en, but t hat
was, you know, i n t he wi nt er m ont hs.
S o i t was t here.
Ot her t han t hat , I t hi nk t here were som e, I m ean, t here were
som e sort of t eachers who were good, ot hers were not good
i n t he norm al course of event s, you know.
I t hi nk som e
t eachers, you know, t ri ed t o al so, I t hi nk, hel p t o awaken,
sort of your pol i t i cal consci ousness. You know t hey t ol d
you st o ri es, you know, i n l i ke of sort of red ant s and whi t e
ant s and so, or what ever, and you know whi ch deal t wi t h
t hose ki nd of soci al i ssues.
S o, i n i t sel f, you know, t he
school , I m ean, asi de from t hose t hi ngs was fi ne, I m ean
you know, I got al ong wi t h t he peopl e.
The probl em was
t hat , I suppose i n a sense you devel op a ki nd of soci al
ci rcl e, a group of peopl e who are your fri ends at school ,
who are al so, you know j ust ki nd of rebel s, and because
9
t hey are sort of rebel s, you know, when t hey l eft , i t i s j us t
sort of, you know, you coul d go t o school , you knew
everybody el se, t hey’d support you. But you know, one si de
of t hat , t hat at l east t hat kept m e goi ng, I suppose i n t he
school . You know, so when m ost of t he persons who were
i n t hat ci rcl e wi t h you, we re not t here, you know, i t j ust
becam e, you know, you sai d l ook. S o you know, you were
goi ng t o school , you coul d do t he hom ework, but I was, i f
t hey hadn’t suggest ed t o m e, I probabl y woul d have st i l l
gone t hrough, nobody woul d have been t oo m uch t he wi s er,
and I woul d have passed m y S t andard Ni ne and cont i nued
t o do m y S t andard Ten. S o I t hi nk, t hat i t wasn’t anyt hi ng
ex t raordi nary about t he school , t hat m ade m e l eave, j a.
M N: Okay. You al so m ent i oned t hat your pol i t i cal awareness
was awakened duri ng one of your t ri ps.
Di d you say
anyt hi ng at hom e about i t ?
YM : W el l , j a, wel l l et ’s say t hat , j a, at hom e wel l I woul d have
begun t o t al k t o m y parent s, but you know, by, t hi s by ‘64
you began t o not i ce t hese t hi ngs, t hese l ect ures cam e.
By
‘68, now you m ust rem em ber, you see t he R epubl i c was
decl ared on t he 31 May ‘61. S o, by 19... when I was i n
S t andard Ei ght , I was al ready di st ri but i ng i l l egal pam phl et s
at school . I had al ready l i nked up wi t h peopl e, you know,
who were produci ng t hese t hi ngs, and so on.
R i ght , I’m
not sure, t here’s a chap cal l ed Mool a, I’m not sure i f he
was l i nked t o a chap cal l ed Mosi e Mool a, who was i n ex i l e,
ri ght . But I can’t rem em ber t oo cl earl y now and you know,
who l i ved i n t hat area. Now I rem em ber get t i ng pam phl et s
and di st ri b ut i ng t hat . But al so what st ruck m e was t he ki nd
of fear, you know, am ongst your fel l ow st udent s and so on.
They j ust t hought t hat you were nut s, you know, t ryi ng t o
do t hat , and you know, I t hi nk i f you rem em ber t hat peri od,
t hat was when you know, you ha d t he R i voni a Tri al , you
10
know you had al l t hese, and you know by t hat t i m e t he
S t at e
had
real l y
sm ashed
what ever
rem ai ned
of
t he
Li berat i on Movem ent . Most of t he peopl e ei t her, you know,
t he R i voni a Tri al was ‘64, ‘65, you know t hat ’s when
Mandel a and t he ot hers had gone t o pri son.
There were a
whol e l ot of ot her t ri al s goi ng on and t hey had caught a
whol e l ot of peopl e who had st art ed t he MK cadres, who
were doi ng t hat and m any of t hem , t he rest of t he peopl e
had gone i nt o ex i l e at t hat t i m e.
S o t here wa s very l i t t l e
rem ai ni ng, but , j a, t hat t i m e t here was very l i m i t ed ki nd of
act i vi t y, you know, so i t was, I had gone beyond t he poi nt
of j ust bei ng consci ous, t o becom i ng t hat sort of st udent ,
an act i vi st of som e sort , j a.
M N: Yes. How was i t pol i t i cal l y, because now duri ng t hat t i m e
t he organi sat i ons were banned. You fi nd t hat i n m ost
com m uni t i es, rat epayers associ at i ons wi l l m asquerade as
rat epayers but yet com e up pol i t i cal l y, I m ean pushi ng
pol i t i cal phi l osophy.
YM : There was not hi ng of t hat ki nd, yo u see because, see what
was happeni ng was t hat fi rst l y, you see t hat , i t was not a,
you know, i t ’s not a cl assi cal t ownshi p or suburb as you
have i t . You know, t he poi nt i s, nex t t o where I l i ved was
a bi g garage, ri ght .
On t he one si de was a bi g wal l ri ght
t here. I had a narrow ki nd of passage, you know about say,
t wo, you know about , j a, say a m et re or t wo m et res wi de,
you know, where I used t o j ust pl ay soccer, i t was
cem ent ed. You know, down t he road, was a ki nd of fact ory,
you know so nobody, peopl e weren’t spendi ng on houses,
because i t was decl ared an i ndust ri al area, so you rem ai ned
and you know, i n t erm s of t he Group Areas Act , you
weren’t goi ng t o be abl e t o rem ai n, you know, so by about
‘67, I t hi nk, m y parent s, i n fact we had t o m ove out by ‘6 4,
because where t hat t he house i s now, you know t here’s a
11
ki nd of l i ght i ndust ri al fact ory, t hat went up i n l 964.
S o,
you know, t here was real l y, you know i t was a com m uni t y,
you know, you were resi dent t here, but your t i m e was
l i m i t ed. I wasn’t consci o us of t hat , you know, at t hat age,
but t hat ’s what was happeni ng, i n t hat sense. S o t here was
real l y, you know, t here were a few hom es here, a few
hom es down t he st reet , and m aybe by l 950, t here were
m uch m ore hom es, but you know, as I grew up, you know
t here were m ore fact ori es com i ng up or com m erci al sort of
bui l di ngs, and t he peopl e were di m i ni shi ng i n t he area.
M N: Begi nni ng of your pol i t i cal act i vi sm , you sai d i t begun i n
hi gh
school ,
when
you
di st ri but ed
pam phl et s.
W hose
pam phl et s were t hey? C an you enl i ght en us m ore?
YM : W el l , t hey were j ust sort of an unnam ed, you know, t here
was, you know i f you read t hi s R aym ond S ut t ener’s book,
he t al ks about t hese roneo
m achi nes, you know.
S o t hey
were j ust roneod pam phl et s, you know, you t ake t hat ki nd
of pa per, t ype out a st enci l , and t hey run off. They had no
nam e on i t , you know i t was j ust condem ni ng, t hat we don’t
recogni se t hi s t hi ng and so on, you know, you j ust want ed
t o rem ai n anonym ous, and t he obj ect of t he pam phl et was
t o get peopl e, you know t o boycot t t hese R epubl i c Day
cel ebrat i ons. You know at school , t he st udent s were asked
t o st and and sal ut e t he fl ag and, you know, so, you know, i t
was j ust t ryi ng t o get peopl e not t o do t hose t hi ngs.
To
say, we’ve got not hi ng t o cel ebrat e, as bl acks, you know, i n
t erm s of what t he R epubl i c, because i t ’s act ual l y dest royi ng
our l i ves and i t ’s m aki ng current condi t i on worse for us.
M N: As a di st ri but or, where di d you get t hem from ?
YM : No, no, as I say, I got t hem from t hi s, you know t here was a
chap, you k now.
l i nked.
W el l , t here were som e peopl e t hat were
Now, what i s not cl ear i n m y m em ory i s whet her,
you know at t hat st age, you know, t here’s, I m et , you know,
12
som e peopl e around t he area, where t he m osque was,
because you see, al so what I m ay not have m ent i oned i s
t hat , wel l
school ,
not when I was i n Hi gh school , but i n P ri m ary
you
know,
I’m
t ryi ng
to
work
out ,
I
can’t
rem em ber. But I had t o com e hom e and t hen go back t o, j a,
but you know what we cal l m adressa, whi ch i s ki nd of
rel i gi ous cl asses, i n t h e Isl am i c com m uni t y.
S o ri ght for
t hat whol e peri od, you know, I used t o go i n t he aft ernoon
t here, so I t hi nk i t was i n t hat area and I m et , you know, so
som e of m y fri ends , I t hi nk you’ve j ust got t o pardon m y
m em ory,
because
I
can’t
rem em ber
now
who
t h ese
youngst ers were. I can probabl y rem em ber m ore faces t han
nam es now, but I rem em ber, you know, i t was l i ke Mool as
or Mayat s, or som et hi ng. The ex act fel l ows now I can’t
rem em ber t hei r nam es. It ’s j ust a l ong t i m e.
But t hat ’s
m aybe part of our probl em , we don’t record our Hi st ory, j a.
M N: You want ed t o go t o t he west but you ended up i n P aki st an.
Tel l us about t hat t ri p?
YM : Okay, wel l as I sai d, I ended up i n P aki st an.
M N: W hen was i t by t he way?
YM : Thi s was i n l 967, j a ‘67, j a ri ght m i d’67, because j a t hat ’s
ri ght , I di d, no, I woul d have com pl et ed m y st andard ei ght ,
no i t was ‘68.
R i ght , i t woul d have been, I fi ni shed, t he
m at ri c I di d i n ‘67 and t hen March ‘68, ri ght and I l eft i n
J ul y ‘68. Okay, I t hi nk when I got agai n t o P aki st an, I
suppose
your
ki nd
of
rebel l i ous
nat ure,
I
suppose
cont i nues, ri ght . S o I, we were supposed t o st ay i n a host el ,
I suppose.
M N: W ere you st i l l a hi ppi e?
YM : No, no t hen was when I becam e - I wasn’t a hi ppi e.
M N: S o you were cl ean now.
YM : No, no, wel l , I suppose aft er a cert ai n t i m e, m y beard
woul d have st art ed growi ng. W el l , I suppose I had a beard,
13
at t hat t i m e. I can’t recal l when, you know, but when I got
t o P aki st an, I woul d have been growi ng a beard; and m y
hai r woul d have been l ong, and so on. S o we were st ud ent s
t here, but what happened was, t hat we were st ayi ng, l i ke,
you know, i f you had a uni versi t y, t here were uni versi t y
col l eges, and i t had resi dences l i ke yours.
But , I di dn’t
l i ke i t t here, and t hen som e of us got t oget her and we went
and sort of rent e d a fl at i n one of t he suburbs, you know,
and t hen I went t o a di fferent col l ege t here.
Anyway, not
m uch t hat happened by way of m y st udi es.
If you
rem em ber l 968 what you had was a whol e l ot of st udent
upri si ng even i n t he W est . You fi nd i t was t he days of C he
Guevara. There was a chap cal l ed, I t hi nk i t ’s Tari eq Al i ,
or Tari eq Az i z , one of t he t wo, Al i , Al i . Tari eq Al i , but he
was a P aki st ani based i n t he UK, ri ght . But I di dn’t know
hi m , because I was i n P aki st an, he was i n t he UK at t hat
t i m e.
But i t was t hat peri od, and what you had, but you
had a whol e st udent upri si ng, ri ght , whi ch occurred wi t hi n
a
few
m ont hs.
At
t hat
time
t here
was
a
m i l i t ary
di ct at orshi p, I suppose, l i ke you have t oday, I suppose,
P aki st an has been ki nd of t here.
S o whi l e I was t here, at
t he uni versi t y, and i t was a very st udent l ead, not l ead, but
very st udent i nvol ved m ovem ent , and al so st udent s. S o al l
your col l eges cl osed down, so not m uch was happeni ng.
W hat I t hen deci ded t o do was t o t ravel , aft er about a
m ont h or t wo. I had very l i t t l e m oney. I rem em ber i t was
about £50 and I deci ded - I had fri ends, you know, who had
t ravel l ed up wi t h m e and who had st udi ed wi t h m e al so at
t he UIS .
I t hi nk t hat one of t he persons was cl ose, I
haven’t seen hi m for a l ong t i m e, i s Farouk Karar, I
rem em ber t hat nam e.
He’s t he one person, and what we
had done was, I went t o our school i n Karachi , Karachi ’s a
coast al ci t y, and Lahore i s i nl and, you know i t ’s about , j a,
14
i t ’s about m ore di st ant t han from here t o J ohannesburg, but
i t wo ul d be l i ke P i et ersburg. S o I t ravel l ed t here. I spent
about a few weeks wi t h hi m and t hen I t ravel l ed across
from t he nort hern end t hrough Fi roz pur t o Del hi ; but , I
suppose you wi l l have t o l ook at t he Indi an and P aki st ani
m aps t o fol l ow what I’m sayi ng . But anyway, i t ’s t here and
t hen, j a, so what we j ust di d i s t hat , t hat what I di d, I had
som e fri ends, and we t ravel l ed across but we spl i t up fai rl y
qui ckl y, because I di dn’t l i ke t hei r st yl e of t ravel l i ng,
essent i al l y whi ch i s, you know - t here’s a m o vi e cal l ed "If
It ’s Tuesday, Thi s Must Be Bel gi um ." W el l , i f you’ve seen
t hat one, i t ’s t hat , and event ual l y what t hat m ovi e says, j ust
wai t . It ’s t hese Am eri cans t hat t ry and want t o get cul t ured
i n Europe, al ri ght . It seem s Vi no knows t hi s m ovi e; i t ’s a
com edy; but i t ’s hi l ari ous. It m eans t hat i f you go, t hey go
t hrough Europe i n seven days, or what ever, you don’t know
where you are, but you get up and l ook at , oh so, t oday,
what ’s t oday, i t ’s Tuesday, so t hat ’s ri ght , and t hat ’s
basi cal l y what you go t . W e st ayed i n t he t rai n al l ni ght , we
get t o Del hi , we get i nt o one of t hese t our buses, t o go and
see about t went y t ouri st s at t hese m osques and t em pl es, and
hi st ori cal si ght s. I s ai d, l ook, I don’t want t o, for m e t hat ’s
fi ne, i t ’s one of t he t hi ngs, I’l l do i t , I’l l read som et hi ng,
I’l l see whi ch one I want t o go and see, one or t wo
m osques, one or t wo t em pl es, but I’m not real l y here, t hat ’s
why I want t o t ake i n.
I want t o go and si t i n.
Even i n
t hose days, t here was i n Del hi , I rem em ber, l i ke a c afet eri a,
you know, where ordi nary peopl e si t t i ng, you know, and
you j ust si t t here, and you can si t for a l ong t i m e. It was
m assi ve, you know, and peopl e com e and go and you j ust
dri nk t ea and t hen you bum p i nt o Indi ans.
One of t he
t hi ngs t hat I coul d d o, besi des speaki ng Guj arat i , i s t hat
because of m y school i ng, you know m y m ot her, before she
15
cam e from Indi a, she had sort of, she had school i n Urdu.
Now Urdu and Hi ndi are very si m i l ar, you know, and Hi ndi
and Engl i sh are about t he nat i onal l anguages, ex cept when
you go t o t he sout h, you know, whi ch i s, t here are a whol e
range of ot her l anguages. Tam i l and ot hers am ongst t hem ,
and so i t ’s t here, but I t hi nk t hat , but i t ’s accept ed i n t he
nort h. It ’s al so t he l anguage i n areas l i ke Del hi and so on,
so agai n what was surpri si ng because, you know, peopl e
m i st ook m y nat i onal i t y, or wel l anyway, because t hey
t hought I was anyt hi ng from French t o Am eri can t o what ,
l ooki ng wi t h t hi s l eat her j acket , and j ust , t hey di dn’t sort
of l i nk you t o bei ng Indi an or of I ndi an ori gi n, you know,
when t hey saw t hat , but when you spoke t he l anguage and
when you t ol d t hem where you were from , even S out h
Afri ca for an ordi nary Indi an person, was di ffi cul t t o
physi cal l y pl ace. Anyway, so t hat was t he ex peri ence. And
t hen what I di d was, I spl i t from t hese guys and I t ravel l ed
ri ght t o Bom bay and t hen down t o Goa, al ri ght , al l on m y
own. I j ust want ed an ex peri ence, ri ght . But al so you see,
j ust t o see t hat , you know t hat povert y i n Indi a and
P aki st an was st i l l preval ent t here as wel l , you know, i n al l
i t ’s ex t rem e form s, and t hen what had happened was, t hat I
got back t o P aki st an, I had used up m y al l owance, so I was
l i vi ng off very l i t t l e m oney.
Now one of t he t hi ng t hat
peopl e warn you about i s not eat i ng off t he st reet s, bu t
what t hey m ean about off t he st reet s i s, you have t hese
hawkers, because, agai n i t i s a sub -t ropi cal cl i m at e, i t ’s not
hygi eni c, t he food i s l eft t here, fl i es si t on i t and so on,
and, you know, I was sort of j ust very ki nd of, j ust bei ng a
rebel agai n, i t ’s fi ne, I sai d now you are, you know we used
t o use t he t erm , you are sort of bourgeoi s now. W hat , you
don’t want t o m i x wi t h t he peopl e; you t al k al l t hese
t hi ngs. I went , I used t o go and eat t hat food. P art l y i t was
16
necessi t at ed by m oney, you know, because when you got
t here and t hen you know, you had t o put your m oney, you
went and sat i n a ni ce hot el and had a good m eal , ri ght . As
t he m oney ran out , now you had t o fi nd cheaper m eal s, so
however, you rat i onal i se. Anyway, as a consequence, I got
very i l l .
I got t yphoi d i n fact , and so I l ost about t hi rt y,
fort y ki l ogram s. Fort unat el y, we knew st udent s at t he
m edi cal col l ege t here, and I got t reat m ent . But at t hat t i m e
now I was pl anni ng t o go and hi t chhi ke across t o Europe,
you know, so i t was st i l l t here. My Dad had sent som e of
m y uncl e’s, you know, one I know from C ape Town, t he
ot her one’s l at e, but he was from Zam bi a, and t hey had
gone t o Mecca for Haj , and t hey cam e because t hey were
goi ng t o Indi a, so t hey st opped over. Now, what had
happen ed i s t here was a fri end of m i ne, who had a ki nd of
very, i t m i ght have been owned by som e S out h Afri can but
i t was al m ost l i ke a very di ngy ki nd of room , bi g room ,
but , you know, i t was j ust l i vi ng on t he very ki nd of
di ffi cul t ci rcum st ances, because you know i t ’s not , i t ’s
ki nd of t hat Karachi area i s sort of a ki nd of sem i -desert
area, so your wat er i s rest ri ct ed, you onl y have wat er for
t wo, t hree hours a day.
You fi l l your bucket s of wat er,
ri ght , and t hat was l i ke, you know, bel ow ol d warehouses
and so on, so you have bat s fl yi ng around and so on. S o i t
was an i nt erest i ng, agai n ex peri ence.
You see, one of t he
t hi ngs I used t o do i s read a l ot . S o I was readi ng a book
cal l ed “C ri m e and P uni shm ent ” by Dost eovsky, ri ght , but i t
was bad t o do i t i n a w ay, when you’re i n t hat ki nd
depressed ki nd of si t uat i on, because you know, i t ’s a very
good book but i t al so a ki nd of very depressi ng book.
Anyway, when I got i l l , t here were som e ot her fri ends.
Thi s guy who’s fl at I had m oved i nt o, wel l t hi s pl ace,
because he m oved i nt o a ni cer fl at i n a suburb, and when I
17
got si ck, he had fri ends who were from East Afri ca. They
were Ism al i s, you see, whi ch i s, bel ong t o t hi s Aga Khan.
S o I recovered t here, but when m y uncl es cam e, now very
few peopl e knew where I wa s, so i t t ook t hem som e t i m e t o
fi nd a fri end of m i ne, at one of t hese uni versi t y col l eges
and t race m e, but t hese Ism al i guys, t hey are sort of l ess,
how do you say, conservat i ve or ort hodox about t hei r
rel i gi ous bel i efs, you know, so t hey woul d go, t hei r wom en
are al l owed t o go t o m osques i n, where, sort of, m y
rel i gi ous background, t hey’re not al l owed.
S o when t hey
cam e t o t hi s fl at now, t hey saw, som ebody t hat was, had
l ost t hi rt y, fort y ki l ogram s, t here were t hese and t hese
wom en, sort of st udent s or fri ends were vi si t i ng i n t hi s
fl at , I don’t know what m ust have gone t hrough t hei r heads.
They saw m e t here.
Then t hey sort of phoned m y fat her,
t hey sai d, no, I t hi nk Yunus m ust com e back, he can’t st ay
here and so on, and so t hey were goi ng t o. S o m y Dad sai d,
"l ook, you ei t her com e back or I’m goi ng t o cut off your
al l owance." And al l t hat , and anyway. I
real i sed now t hey
were goi ng t o, because now t he st ori es t hat t hey woul d hear
from your rel at i ves woul d be worse, so I sai d l et m e rat her
j ust com e back and t hen sort of rebui l t m y l i fe. S o I cam e
back. Thi s was a year l at er. S o t hi s woul d be about J une
l 969. W hen I cam e back, t hen I went and I had t o, I sai d I
m ust go and work now i n J ohannesburg, ri ght and I worked
for an i nsurance com pany, and t hen I deci ded, I sai d I
woul d com e, I had no choi ce now, I had t o com e t o
S al i sbury Isl and aft er t hat , ri ght .
M N: Ex cuse m e.
I forgot t o ask you.
W hat were you st udyi ng
i n P aki st an?
YM : W el l , what we had t o do was, you know, i t was cal l ed an
i nt er -art s degree, i t ’s l i ke your A Level s, you know,
because what i t woul d deci de i s, where you, you had t o
18
pass t hat course i n t he fi rst year, and t hen you woul d do,
t he equi val ent of a BA or a BC om or what ever you want ed
t o do, but i t ’s j ust t hat i t ’s an i nt erv eni ng course, bet ween
your Mat ri c and a uni versi t y qual i fi cat i on.
M N: Now, your grandparent s, havi ng com i ng from Indi a, do you
know why di d you go t o P aki st an i nst ead of Indi a?
YM : W el l , J a, i t ’s because you see, from m y parent ’s poi nt of
vi ew, al t hough t he vi l l age i s t here, t he poi nt i s t hat , t he
whol e i ssue i s, t hey want ed an Isl am i c count ry, you see,
t hey fel t t hat for m y cul t ure i t was bet t er t o go t o P aki st an
rat her t han t o Indi a.
I t hi nk t hat woul d have been t hei r
feel i ng.
M N: S o, now you cam e back .
YM : J a, S o I worked for si x -m ont hs i n an i nsurance com pany
t hat was, you know, j ust t o earn som e m oney t o save up t o
com e t o uni versi t y, ri ght , and t hen at t he begi nni ng of
l 970, I cam e here and I t ri ed t o say.
Look I’ve done t hi s
course, I had som e cou rse credi t s from P aki st an, but I
di dn’t have a uni versi t y ex em pt i on, and I was t ryi ng t o
enrol for a BA i n l 970 at S al i sbury Isl and, and al so at t he
sam e t i m e, j ust get t hi s one, I needed Afri kaans I t hi nk, i t
was an ex em pt i on subj ect , ri ght , but anyway t h ey were not
buyi ng t hat . They sai d,
no,
you
go
and
get
your
ex em pt i on and, so I deci ded I'l l st ay i n Durban and I went
t o M.L. S ul t an [ Techni cal C ol l ege] you know for t he
eveni ng cl asses, ri ght , and t hen I found work at a but chery,
not , I wasn’t cut t i ng m eat , but I was, as a cl erk, a credi t ors
cl erk. It was cal l ed, i t was i n Ol d Dut ch R oad now, I can’t
rem em ber what i t was cal l ed agai n. Orchi d But chery, ri ght .
Okay, so t hat was, I worked t here for t he year, and at ni ght
I went t o and I act ual l y di d, bes i des Afri kaans, I redi d
Mat hs, because I j ust want ed t o i m prove m y sym bol and I
di d Econom i cs. S o I j ust di d a t hi rd subj ect , ri ght . W el l ,
19
what I al so l earnt , I di d a part -t i m e course on t ouch t ypi ng,
whi ch hel ps m e a l ot t hese days, wi t h com put ers, beca use,
so t hat ’s what I di d. Then i n ‘71, t hat ’s, you know, when I
fi rst m et Vi no, because we st art ed t hat year at , at t hat t i m e,
t hat fi rst year we were at S al i sbury Isl and, j a, and t hat ’s,
j a, so t hat ’s when I st art ed, and t hen we cam e here t o t hi s
pl ace, i n ‘72.
Not you, but we, or I cam e, okay.
J a, and
t hen, so agai n t hat was, by t he t i m e I had com e i nt o, I was
sort of ol der t han m ost , som e of m y, a l ot of t he st udent s i n
m y cl ass, because I hadn't com e out of school , because I
had t hose years i n P aki s t an and worki ng and so on, you
know, so, al t hough I had ski pped a year. S o i t wasn’t t oo
m uch of a di fference, ri ght , but what I had was a l ot of
ot her ex peri ence, ri ght , You know, one of t he t hi ngs,
m aybe gi ve you one m ore anecdot e about P aki st an. W hen I
got t here, you know, you get , t hey had a l ot of, i n t hose
days, l i t erat ure from t he S ovi et Uni on i n t hese pl aces. S o
you get t he t hree vol um es of Das Kapi t al by Karl Marx . S o
t hey com e t o about t hree vol um es, t hi s t hi ck. S o how m uch
i t cost , you know, real l y i t i s not hi ng, you know, i t was
l i ke one rand t oday or som et hi ng, you know, or m aybe t en
rand, but i t was a very nom i nal am ount , even i n t erm s of
t he val ue for t hose books, because I t hi nk t hey had been
subsi di sed by t he S ovi et Governm ent . Anyway, so I go l i ke
a bi g shot and I buy t hese t hi ngs, ri ght , and every m orni ng
I get up and I’m t ryi ng t o read t hi s t hi ng. I’m not get t i ng
anywhere, because I've got no knowl edge of econom i cs and
you know, I m ean I’m bat t l i ng.
Aft er, I t hi nk about i t ,
about t wo or t hree m ont hs, I sai d hey, Yunus, whose t i m e
you're wast i ng and you know, you’ve got t o t el l t he guys
you’ve read Das Kapi t al , but you real l y not , you need t o get
groundi ng and t hat ’s part of t he reason why I went and sort
of, st art ed doi ng som e cours es i n econom i cs and so on,
20
even i n l at er i n l i fe. But t hat was basi cal l y t hat . W hen, j a,
so, I sai d I becam e, you know, I wasn’t t oo act i ve I t hi nk i n
t hat ‘71 peri od. I was get t i ng t o know, but I m et a whol e
l ot of t he peopl e, who were act i ve i n t he st udent pol i t i c
days, so you know i t woul d be, you know l i ke P ravi n
Gordhan, your current R ecei ver of R evenue, Zac Yacoob,
Kri sh Govender, t here was a whol e l ot of persons who were
agai n i n t he ‘72 peri od and t here were, you know I was
agai n on t he m ore on t he ki nd of - I suppose l eft , ul t ra -l eft
as you woul d cal l i t . You know, because som e peopl e fel t
t hat you needed t o part i ci pat e i n t he syst em , and t he syst em
here woul d have been t he S R C . I assum e t hose debat es go
on i n st udent ci rcl es, t hey wi l l probabl y go on. But , what
happened i n l 972, ri ght , was t hat Abraham Ti ro was ki l l ed,
ri ght , and t hen t here whol e nat i onal st udent boycot t s, ri ght ,
and t hi s cam pus, t here were al so boycot t s here.
cam pus here, what had happened was
t hat ,
t he
At t he
SRC
was t ryi n g t o cont rol t he crowds, and we were havi ng a l ot
of di fferences wi t h som e of t he S R C peopl e, but what I
real i sed i s, no t hese guys were, you know we used t o cal l
t hem sel l -out s i n t hose days, t hey were onl y i nt erest ed i n
advanci ng t hei r careers and so on.
But as t he boycot t
unfol ded and we i nt eract ed m ore, and general l y, you know,
because your pol i cy i s t hat , you di dn’t want t o be ex posed,
so t hat you di dn’t want t he S ecuri t y P ol i ce t o know you.
But , you know, I j ust sai d, no l ook t hese guys were i n
t rou bl e. You know we were si t t i ng here, i n t hi s sam e
cam pus, cafet eri a here across, and t he poi nt i s t hat , t hey
were havi ng di ffi cul t y i n t ryi ng t o cont rol t hi s sort of
crowd, and I t hi nk t hey were appeal i ng t o som e of us, t o
say, okay, you’ve got som e fol l owi ng and support .
So I
went up and I sort of i n a sense broke t he prot ocol of m y
own groupi ng whi ch was not t o go ont o a publ i c pl at form ,
21
and j ust spoke a bi t and so on. Then t here was a coal esci ng
of pol i t i cs, but one becam e fai rl y act i vel y i nvol ved aft er
t hat peri od.
END OF TAP E 1A
R ES UMP TION ON 1B
M N: W el com e back, S i r. You were t el l i ng us about your ret urn
t o t he pl at form , breaki ng t he prot ocol .
YM : Yes, okay.
J a, I t hi nk t hat was what I di d and t hen aft er
t hat I t hi nk, you know, I worked t oget her cl o sel y, I di dn’t
get ont o t he S R C but I t hi nk what happened, was t hat as a
resul t of t hat i nt eract i on, I t hen al so real i sed t hat t here was
no poi nt i n cont i nui ng wi t h t he S R C , and t hen, t here was a
ki nd of coal esci ng of forces and t he whol e S R C was
di ssol ved .
But t hat doesn’t m ean t hat t he st ruggl e di dn’t
cont i nue. S o we cont i nued and t hen agai n, t he second t i m e
now, I t hi nk i t was agai n around R epubl i c day, but t hi s
t i m e I got caught because now we produced t he pam phl et s
at uni versi t y and I was di st ri but i n g t hem i n Beat ri ce st reet .
S o I t hi nk t hat was m y fi rst i nt eract i on wi t h t he S ecuri t y
P ol i ce here. But I was t aken, but i t ’s real l y not hi ng,
because t he pam phl et s were not necessari l y, I t hi nk t hey but t hat t i m e I t hi nk we had al so l i nked up wi t h t he Na t al
Indi an C ongress, I t hi nk i t was t he Nat al Indi an C ongress
pam phl et s, so t here was not hi ng i l l egal about t hem , ri ght ,
t hey di dn’t l i ke i t , you know, so t hey t ook m e i n, and at
t hat t i m e, i t was Fi sher S t reet , you know, t hat i s where t hey
had t he pol i ce headquart ers before t hey m oved t o - I don’t
know where t hey are t hese days.
S o t hat was t he peri od.
S o t hen I t hi nk I j ust got sl apped around and kept for a few
hours and t hen t hey dropped m e off, and so on, ri ght .
C am e back, but before t hat , whi l e we w ere at S al i sbury
Isl and.
In t hose days, I suppose you heard t he st ory now
about t he t i es. You know you coul dn’t com e t o t hi s
22
uni versi t y, wi t hout weari ng a t i e. S o t he rebel t hat I was,
m erri l y wal ki ng i n wi t hout m y t i e, and t hi s, t here was a
chap cal l ed Ol i vi er, who was t he rect or of t hi s pl ace. You
probabl y, you know, i f you l ook at t he peri od t he 60’s and
70’s, he was an ol d Broederbonder who was dri vi ng i n a
chauffeur -dri ven car and he opens hi s wi ndow and he says,
"W here's your t i e". I sai d, "oh no, I forgot i t " or som et hi ng.
S o he cal l ed m e up, t hen t here was a di sci pl i nary about
t hat . That was i n ‘71. Then agai n i n ‘72, or ‘73, t hen I got
caught .
S o by t hat t i m e he knew m e.
Aft er t hat , I had,
t here was a whol e form al di sci pl i nary heari ng and al l t hat ,
and I t hi nk t hey j ust warned m e.
But I t hi nk i t wasn’t ,
because t hey coul dn’t charge m e cri m i nal l y. S o t hey j ust
gave m e a hard t i m e and t hey wrot e t o m y parent s and, you
know t he usual t hi ngs. But , i n t erm s of m y academ i c si de,
j a m aybe one shou l d j ust st at e for t he record, j a, we were
here, so t hat was ‘72, ‘73, ri ght . I had al l m y courses. My
m aj ors woul d have been P ri vat e Law 3 and Engl i sh 3. S o I
passed Engl i sh l and 2 fai rl y easi l y. But what we had was,
t here was a chap from , a P rof fro m UC T who had com e i n
at t he begi nni ng of t hat year, P rof C opel and or som et hi ng.
S o he was a ki nd of very l i beral fel l ow. But , we t hen went
t o see t o, he i nvi t ed us t o hi s house and so on, but you
know, I was j ust a very out spoken fel l ow.
m y m out h shut i t di dn’t work.
I t ri ed t o kee p
W e were si t t i ng t here and
t hen so I had a bi g ki nd of al t ercat i on.
I t ol d t hat whol e
Engl i sh depart m ent what I t hought of t hem and t hei r ki nd
of l i beral i sm and so on, you know.
I real i sed t hat l ook,
m aybe som ehow I al ways fel t , because I spent m uch m ore
t i m e on Engl i sh 3 t han I di d on P ri vat e Law 3 and t he ot her
subj ect s. S o I got al l t he ot her courses ex cept for Engl i sh
3, whi ch st i l l rem ai ns out st andi ng for t he BA, but I deci ded
l ook, I’m not goi ng t o st i ck around and r epeat i t j ust for
23
t hat one course.
I got Art i cl es and t hen I worked, I was
art i cl ed t o Enver Mot al a and t hen I was doi ng, sort of, and
t hen I di d t hat B.P roc whi ch I com pl et ed by end of ‘75.
And I com pl et ed m y art i cl es i n t hat t wo years.
At t hat
st age, at t he end of ‘74, wel l t here was t he Frel i m o ral l y
and so on.
You know t hat whol e peri od and t hen you had
t hi s, t he m ai n S AS O t ri al .
S o you had al l t hese guys,
Terror Lekot a and S t ri ni and S at hs, you know you have al l
t hese guys.
Now t he at t orney t hat was handl i ng i t , was a
chap cal l ed S hun C het t y.
from overseas.
Now he had recent l y ret urned
These S AS O guys went t o hi m and chose
hi m as t hei r l awyer, t hat was t hei r ri ght , but som e of t he
l egal est abl i shm ent , I was st i l l very young, I m ean I was
j ust st udyi ng m y Art i cl es st i l l , you know, fel t why are
t hese guys goi ng t o hi m , where t here are m uch m ore
est abl i shed bl ack fi rm s and who have got ex peri ence, and
who al so had m ore sort of C ongress l eani ngs, and t hey
di dn’t underst and.
S o whi l e I al ways sort of C ongress
l eani ngs, I m ean I had al so been, you know, i n t he
underground and even by t hat peri od, I m ean ‘73, ‘74, I had
m et Mbeki i n S waz i l and and so on.
di fferent st ory.
guys.
But t hat was a
But I st i l l fel t di fferent l y t owards t hese
S om e of t hem I kn ew t hem and so on. In t he ‘72
boycot t s, we had worked t oget her and so on, and t hi s fri end
of m i ne who I had m ent i oned, Kri sh Govender who was at
uni versi t y, but he was art i cl ed, and he cam e t o m e, sai d,
"l ook, t hese guys are t here" and so on. I sai d, "j a, I know
we’ve got t o do som et hi ng, we can’t , because S hun doesn’t ,
he was new i n t own and so on, and he needed support ." In
any event , what had happened was t hat t hey deci ded al so
t hat m any of t hem were from Durban, or even i f t hey were
not from here, t hi s was t hei r base, because you know i t ’s
m ore, not so m uch UDW , but Medi cal S chool and Al an
24
Tayl or [ R esi dence] , and so. I sai d, "no fi ne." W hat ever, I’l l
use, t hat ’s "t hey have a ri ght t o choose t hei r l awyer, we
m ust hel p t hem ."
And t hen we went and saw S h un and
S hun sai d "l ook, why don’t you com e and run t he pract i ce."
S o I spoke t o m y sort of pri nci pal at t hat t i m e was not an
ANC , al t hough now he’s becom e an ANC guy, I suppose
everybody has, but he was Uni t y Movem ent [ NEUM] i n
t hose days, Enver Mot al a. B ut I spoke t o hi m , he was fi ne
about i t . He sai d, " okay, you go i n t he aft ernoons and j ust
hel p out " and so on.
And t hen, when I qual i fi ed i n earl y
'76, t hen S hun sai d t o m e, "Look here, why don’t you j ust
cont i nue t o run, because t hi s t ri al i s goi ng t o run for
anot her year or so." S o when I qual i fi ed I worked for hi m .
Then, what happened, whi l e he was runni ng t he t ri al , you
had t he S owet o upri si ngs, J une ‘76, and S hun was, he had a
sm al l
offi ce i n P ret ori a, he opened up an offi ce i n
J ohannesburg, and b ecause he was handl i ng t hi s t ri al , I
t hi nk, you know, j ust everybody j ust went t o hi m . I m ean
t hat ’s how i t happens. It happened t o m y pract i ce, l at er i n
t he 80’s, j ust t hat peopl e j ust com e t o you, because you
have t he ex peri ence. But al so, t hat m any o rdi nary l awyers
are scared t o deal wi t h t he S ecuri t y P ol i ce.
You know,
once you st art deal i ng wi t h t hem , i t ’s real l y, i t ’s j ust
busi ness, and you know, I had from t hat earl y ex peri ences,
I st art ed, wel l I was pi cked up, anyway i n t hat '73 peri od.
Okay, s o t hat was t hat and t hen unt i l I sort of carri ed on
and I becam e aft er a year or so, a part ner wi t h S hun. I was
runni ng t he Durban offi ce and we were di scussi ng
-
[ cel l phone ri ngi ng] .
TAP E S W ITC HED OFF
ON R ES UMP TION
M N:
W e're back.
25
YM : S o what happen ed was t hen, I t hi nk he had t o l eave t he
count ry i n ‘79 and t hen I j ust t ook over t he pract i ce. But ,
t here was som e ki nd of negot i at i ons wi t h t he Law S oci et y,
but I was abl e t o show t hem t hat t hi s pract i ce had been
di fferent and i t was j ust a m at t er of t i m e, you know, t o
work out an arrangem ent wi t h S hun t o t ake over t he Durban
pract i ce, because he real l y had no i nt erest i n com i ng back,
because now he had been worki ng i n J ohannesburg for
about four, fi ve years and he had a busy, t hri vi ng pract i ce.
In t he m eant i m e, I wasn’t goi ng t o go back, you know,
because I had al ready worked at t hi s pract i ce here, and t o
go
back,
because
J ohannesburg,
t hi ngs
al t hough
had
my
j ust
parent s
been
were
devel opi ng
in
here.
P ol i t i cal l y t hen i n l 977, you know, I got rai ded, t h at was
j ust about when, you know, Bi ko I t hi nk di ed, or j ust
around t hat peri od. And t hen, I was j a, agai n I, you know
t he poi nt i s as a ki nd of st udent i nvol ved i n t he st ruggl e,
by t he t i m e I was a young l awyer, but you know I had a
whol e l ot of l i t erat u re, you know st ruggl e and sort of l eft
l i t erat ure. And at t hat t i m e, we had very ki nd of st ri ngent
P ubl i cat i ons C ont rol Board.
You coul d never keep record
of
were
every
som et i m es.
book
t hat
t hey
banni ng
or
whet her,
I never bot hered som et i m es, i f i t was a good
book, I di dn’t bot her t oo m uch t hat i t was banned.
Hopeful l y, I di dn’t want t o keep i t at hom e for t oo l ong.
But I t hi nk t here were som e books t hat t hey had found.
They
event ual l y
charged
m e,
you
know
in
t erm s
of
cont ravent i on of t hat P ubl i cat i ons C ont rol Act . J a, for
bei ng i n possessi on of unl awful l i t erat ure.
MN: And your sent ence?
YM : No, no. I got acqui t t ed. You know, i t ’s di ffi cul t t o charge
a l awyer and m ake i t st i ck.
J a, t he reason, I t hi nk, you
know agai n, I knew advocat es and I got d efended and so on.
26
I got , I t hi nk I was charged t wi ce and I got on bot h t hose
occasi ons, I got acqui t t ed, you see, i n t erm s of t hose ki nd
of charges on t hat , or once, I can’t recal l now. But j a, t hat
was basi cal l y what happened. S o I di dn’t serve a sent e nce.
M N: W ere you successful i n defendi ng t he case t hat you were
doi ng, Terror Lekot a’s one?
YM : No wel l , I real l y was m ore based i n t he Durban offi ce, t he
l awyers handl ed i t . No, t hey al l sort of wel l I suppose, I’m
not sure, wel l , success i n t he sense, no not t hat t hey, t hey
al l went t o j ai l , so I t hi nk i n t hat sense, we weren’t
successful . I suppose i n t erm s of t he ki nd of sent ences and
so on t hat you di d. S ee I t hi nk, al so one has t o rem em ber
t hat for a l ot of t hem , t he m easure of success was t hat yo u,
t hey di dn’t want t o get off at any cost . S o i n ot her words,
t hey want ed pol i t i cal peopl e t o defend t hem , because t hey
al so, for t hem t he court s becam e a t heat re of st ruggl e and
you had t o sort of, i t was al so a ki nd of fi nesse sort of
t hi ng, t hat you d on’t break t he convent i ons, and yet
al l owed a pol i t i cal st at em ent t o be m ade.
And unl ess you
were a pol i t i cal bei ng yoursel f, you know t hey woul dn’t be
abl e t o ki nd of have t hat nat ure of t hat di scussi on and pl an
a st rat egy t o do t hat .
S o, you know, for m e i t i s al ways
sayi ng, t hat I coul dn’t respect , you know, I went and hel ped
out even i n t hat case, and whenever I’ve act ed for peopl e,
you know, i t ’s t o respect t hei r wi shes, you know, t o do
t hat .
You know, I m ean i t ’s l i ke, Madi ba’s fam ous
st at em ent .
T he poi nt i s t hat , you say t hat you st and by
your bel i efs, you can get acqui t t ed, i f you deny what you
bel i eved i n. But t he poi nt i s, do you want t o deny t hat ? I
t hi nk, t hose were t he ki nd of quest i ons.
S o i n a sense,
whet her i t was a success or not , i t depends how you
m easure i t , you know. And I suppose di fferent peopl e wi l l
have di fferent vi ews on t hat .
27
M N: Duri ng t hat peri od, when you st art ed your pract i ce, you
were i n com pany i n your pract i ce.
W ere you pol i t i cal l y
affi l i at ed? Because i n t hat t i m e , t he pol i t i cal organi sat i ons
l i ke t he ANC were banned.
YM : I was pol i t i cal l y affi l i at ed, but m ore as a underground
operat or i n t he ANC .
You know, t he poi nt i s t hat - but I
wasn’t , t here were peopl e,
what had happened i n t hat
t i m e, was t hat t hese guys w ere on t ri al , t here were peopl e
who were m ore ant agoni st i c.
I wasn’t ant agoni st i c, you
know, t o t he sort of Bl ack C onsci ousness peopl e. W e sort ed
of debat ed a l ot and so on, I m ean, I rem em ber si t t i ng wi t h
a l ot of t hem , wi t hout you and t hi s sort of t hi ng , t hey knew
t hat we di ffered on cert ai n phi l osophi es. But t he poi nt i s,
t hat I worked wi t h t hem , I respect ed t hem as peopl e who
were fi ght i ng for l i berat i on as wel l .
di fferences
in
t erm s
of
i deas
But we m i ght have
and
ot herwi se t hat was j a, how i t was.
phi l osophi es
but
But , you know agai n,
one of t he t hi ngs t hat I was rai ded for was, you know,
worked wi t h now t he ret i ri ng P ubl i c P rot ect or, S el by
Baqwa. W e had, you know S t eve had st art ed, at t hat t i m e,
Zi m el e Trust Fund. I was one of t he t rust ees. I rem em ber
Thenj i we
[ Mt i nt so] ]
who
is
al so
now,
t he
Deput y
S ecret ary-General of t he ANC . You know, but som e of us
were t rust ees. I t hi nk at l east S el by and I were, so I t hi nk
one of t he t i m es I was rai ded, I don’t know i f I was
charged, but you know i t was ‘77 . Because t hi s was a fund
whi ch was goi ng t o hel p fam i l i es and educat i on and so on.
S o i t was, m ore of a ki nd of t hi ng, but agai n, because i t
was l i nked t o S t eve and so on, t hey sort of rai ded us
and t hey want ed al l t he t rust deeds and so on from m y
offi ce and so on.
That ’s ri ght , I t hi nk what I confused, I
t hi nk t hen I was rai ded agai n i n ‘79, ri ght , you know, and
t hat ’s when t hey found al l t he l i t erat ure and t hey charged
28
m e. S o t he ‘77 one was on t he Zi m el e t hi ng and t hen t hey
coul dn’t charge m e, I t hi nk, t hey di d t hat and so on.
I
t hi nk around t he t i m e, I t hi nk, j a, t hat short l y aft er S t eve
woul d have been ki l l ed and so on, I t hi nk t hat ’s when t hat
woul d have happened.
M N: C an you t el l us m ore about your underground work?
YM : Okay, j a wel l .
You see what we were i nvol ved wi t h was
j ust on t he pol i t i cal si de, ri ght .
I’ve never been i nvol ved
on t he m i l i t ary si de of t he ANC . My i nvol vem ent has
al ways been on t he pol i t i cal si de.
W el l , t he poi nt i s, we
had sort of t he l i nks, you know, wi t h peopl e i n t he ANC ,
and so at t hat t i m e, I’d sort of gone out i n '73, and t hen we
were get t i ng a l ot of peopl e who were com i ng out . By ‘74,
you know, you had J acob Zum a, now t he Deput y P resi dent ,
and he, t here was a fri end of hi s who was ki l l ed i n ex i l e,
J udson Khuz wayo , ri ght , I was fai rl y cl ose t o t hem .
used t o work wi t h t hem .
We
They had t he underground cel l s,
you know, dri ve t hem around t o go and see Harry Gwal a,
who was based i n P i et erm ari t z burg.
sect or.
That was t he one
But t hen Mac Maharaj cam e out i n l 976, so , you
know, you had every year, a num ber of pol i t i cal pri soners
com i ng out , you know, and t hen l at er, Ebrahi m Ism ai l
[ Ebrahi m ] cam e out .
There was a l ot of ex i l es ri ght , who
we worked wi t h, but we al so sort of t ryi ng t o bui l d up a
m ass m ovem ent , ri ght , be cause we were i nvol ved wi t h t he
Nat al Indi an C ongress.
I di dn’t becom e an ex ecut i ve
m em ber unt i l ‘79, but you know, I knew a l ot of t he peopl e,
t he P resi dent and m ost of t he m em bers of t he ex ecut i ve.
S o, t here was a cl ose rel at i onshi p, but we al so had
di fferences wi t h t hem , because, you see, t hey had t hei r som e of t hem had a phi l osophy t hat al l you m ust do i s fl y
t he fl ag. And we're sayi ng, you can fl y t he fl ag, but i f you
don’t get ordi nary peopl e t o st art bel i evi ng and support i ng
29
you, so i t was, t he phi l osophy was, how do you get , you
know, peopl e, ordi nary day t o day peopl e t o becom e m ore
act i ve. You’ve got t o bear i n m i nd t hat i t ’s a very di fferent
era from what you’ve got , you know, or what you had
devel oped even i n t he ‘80’s. You cam e out where, your sort
of open m ovem ent was ki nd of sm ashed by t he S t at e, you
know, i n t hat peri od of t he ‘60’s and earl y ‘70’s. You had
Bl ack C onsci ousness com i ng up and sayi ng, "You’ve got t o
affi rm yoursel f as bl ack peopl e and so on."
And now you
had t o t ake forwa rd and say t o peopl e. W e st art ed a l ot of
work around t he ci vi c m ovem ent .
I di d a l ot of work.
I
st art ed, you know, t here was an area cal l ed Ti n Town,
where t he Um geni ri ver used t o fl ow.
I t hi nk now what
you’ve got i s, i t ’s cal l ed S pri ngfi el d P ark, I t hi nk i t woul d
have been Ti n Town, but you know t he road was very
di fferent and so on, t hi s whol e area.
Thi s road t hat you
com e up now was, we used t o t ake our buses from here, t hi s
i s a corrugat ed road and t he road used t o curve around t hi s
ri ver.
Anywa y, ‘76 t here were part i cul arl y dam agi ng
fl oods, t here, and t he probl em was t hat t hose peopl e used
t o get fl ooded every few years.
They were on t he fl ood
pl ai n, t hey shoul dn’t have been l i vi ng t here.
shack
set t l em ent s.
Then
we
becam e
They had
i nvol ved
an d
cam pai gned wi t h t hem and t hen t hey were rel ocat ed i n
P hoeni x , and we worked wi t h t hem i n P hoeni x , because
agai n t hey m oved a bi t m ore qui ckl y, but you know around
l i vi ng condi t i ons.
But around t hat we began t o devel op a
ci vi c m ovem ent and we gave a pl at form , you know t o t he
NIC fel l ows, you know, so your, t he ex ecut i ve fel l ows. A
num ber of t hem are now l at e l i ke your MJ Nai doos, and so
on, who act ual l y had t he abi l i t y t o com e i n and address
peopl e, you know, at t hose m eet i ngs and so on.
But t hey
were i nt eract i ng wi t h sort of worki ng cl ass, poorer peopl e,
30
wi t hi n t he com m uni t y and not si m pl y wai t i ng for; get t i ng a
fresh st at em ent i ssued on t hose ki nd of i ssues. And t hat
carri ed on, t hat m ovem ent bui l t up.
C hat swort h
and
so
part i cul arl y m ysel f
on
and
W e worked i n
ri ght .
By
l 979
you
P raveen,
we
t ook
on
know,
a
very
cont roversi al posi t i on. Thi s you coul d read up i n t he
papers, I used t o read t he papers agai n. But we quest i oned
a pol i t i cal t act i c whi ch was cal l ed, t he sam e one whi ch I
m ent i oned
about
t he
SRC,
t hat
whet her
you
shoul d
part i ci pat e i n t he, at t hat t i m e, I t hi nk i t was cal l ed t he
S AIC , S out h Afri can Indi an C ounci l . It was a puppet body,
a body of st ooges, but you know i t ’s an ol d debat e, whi ch
goes back t o Leni n.
M N: C an we pause, now.
END OF R E C OR DING ON TAP E 1B
R ES UMP TION ON TAP E 2A
M N: W el com e back. You were t el l i ng us about t he rai d, i n l 979.
YM : In ‘79, j a I was rai ded. I’m not sure why we were rai ded,
but anyway, I don’t t hi nk t hat t he S ecuri t y P ol i ce al ways
needed a reason. Aft er t hat ra i d, I t hi nk agai n i t was around
about t he Oct ober peri od, ri ght .
That ’s when t hey found
t hi s, what we cal l ed banned books, unl awful l i t erat ure,
ri ght , on m e.
They t ook away a whol e l ot , I t hi nk.
They
had t o ret urn m any of t hem because t hey were not l i st ed but
t he, event ual l y t here were one or t wo books t hat t hey
charged m e wi t h. I was charged. I defended m ysel f and I
was acqui t t ed, ri ght .
M N: You di dn’t t ake a l awyer?
YM : No, no. I di d t ake a l awyer.
M N: Oh, I see.
YM : No, no I di dn’t defend m ysel f. I had an advocat e. There’s
a sayi ng t hat says t hat
cl i ent i s a fool .’
‘a l awyer who has hi m sel f as a
S o I al ways fol l owed t hat , because I
31
t hi nk, i f I’ve got m y own probl em , I can’t be obj ect i ve
about i t , I need som ebody el se, because I’d be m ore
em ot i on al about i t . Anyway, t hat was l 979. Then al so j a,
what I had st art ed t el l i ng you about was al so t hat , we t hen
st art ed t hi s pol i t i cal di scourse about part i ci pat i ng, and j a,
and as a resul t of t hat , i t was I t hi nk, wi t hi n t he pol i t i cal
act i vi st ci rcl es, a very ki nd of l i vel y debat e and so on.
W hat we, I suppose when we i ni t i at ed a debat e, di dn’t
underst and, i s t hat peopl e are very em ot i onal about an
i nst i t ut i on l i ke t he S out h Afri can Indi an C ounci l .
S o we
were al so, and t he newspapers l oved i t , ri ght , bec ause you
l ove cont roversy and fi ght s and so on.
S o peopl e were
vi l i fyi ng us and so on and sayi ng, t hese guys have sol d out
and so on.
I t hi nk, j a, so event ual l y what had happened
was t hat we agreed, you know, t hat we sai d at a cert ai n
poi nt i n t i m e.
Loo k, we weren’t sayi ng t hat we shoul d
part i ci pat e but fel t t hat we m ust seri ousl y consi der t he
i ssue.
It has rai sed a debat e, you know, and what i t
achi eved for us our obj ect i ve, whi ch was act ual l y t o get
peopl e t o t hi nk m ore deepl y and not t o sort of react
m echani cal l y, t o i ssues.
And t hen we had a ki nd of
conci l i at ory m eet i ng and t hen I; I t hi nk bot h of us were co opt ed
ont o
t he
ex ecut i ve
C ongress, at t hat t i m e.
of
t he
NIC ,
Nat al
Indi an
But i t al so rai sed t he publ i c
profi l e, because wi t hi n a cert ai n sort of sect or of t he press,
you were get t i ng a fai r am ount of coverage, you know, as I
sai d, i t ’s what j ournal i st s l i ke. Okay, t hen, what you had i s
agai n,
you
know,
I
t hi nk
t he
pol i t i cal
act i vi t y
was
i ncreasi ng; t he Uni on Movem ent was growi ng st ronger.
More peopl e were, sort of I suppose com i ng off t he Isl and;
we
had
devel oped
cont act s.
m ovem ent s devel opi ng.
But
t here
were
ci vi c
W e had one here, you know,
peopl e, you know l i ke t he present Mi ni st er of Fi nance
32
[ Trevor Manuel ] were i n t hi s, t he C ape areas hou si ng
act i on com m i t t ee. You had Mot l ana and Eri c Morobe now
and I suppose, even Tham bi , t he Mayor of J ohannesburg
were i nvol ved i n S owet o C i vi c Associ at i on.
S o we al l
knew each ot her and so on, and so t here was t hi s a ki nd of
burgeoni ng m ovem ent , a st uden t m ovem ent as wel l . Then I
t hi nk agai n, you had i n t hat l 980’s peri od agai n, anot her set
of det ent i ons ri ght . I j ust rem em ber t hat I
know
t hi s
Yuni s S hai k and Avar, and Thum ba [ P i l l ay] and MJ
[ Nai doo] and George [ S ewpersadh] , a l ot of t he NIC
ex ecut i ve g uys. There was anot her st udent boycot t I t hi nk
goi ng on. That l 980’s peri od, ri ght and t hey al l got
det ai ned, and agai n I act ed for som eone el se.
I went and
saw t hem , t hey were i n Modderbee P ri son. Thi s was a
prevent i ve det ent i on. I forget what i t ’s j ust cal l ed now, t he
Act .
No, no, t hi s i s what I was t eachi ng now.
di fferent one.
That ’s a
But what you had, t hi s was som e ot her
t hi ng, i t was S ect i on 77 or som et hi ng, but you can l ook t hat
up. But i t was, you don’t get charged. W hat t hey j ust do i s
t hey det ai n you and t hey keep you.
You know, t hey di d
t hat i n ‘77 t o, I rem em ber [ Nt at ho] Mot l ana, Di l i z a Mj i ;
qui t e a few peopl e who were det ai ned under t hat S ect i on,
as wel l .
Anyway, what happened t hen i n l 981, ri ght i s
when I got det ai ned i n t erm s of S ect i on 29.
No, no I
di dn’t , i t was S ect i on 6 of t he Terrori sm Act , t he sam e one
as t he S AS O guys.
That was st i l l t he Terrori sm Act ,
because t he Int ernal S ecuri t y Act cam e i n and I got t hat for
m y l at er det ent i on.
M N: That was because of your underground work .
YM : That was because of m y underground work.
Now at t hat
t i m e what you had i s t hat , t here were m assi ve det ent i ons i n
J ohannesburg. It was m ai nl y, but i t was peopl e, t hey were
t ryi ng t o, t hey were det ai ni ng a l ot of, t here were MK
33
act i vi t i es goi ng on, s o you know, your Bul al ani Nquka, t he
nat i onal boss was i n det ent i on at t he sam e t i m e as us, ri ght .
However, I was at t hat t i m e we were at C R S wart now.
Now rem em ber P raveen’s cel l was opposi t e and Bul al ani
was t here; P raveen was nex t t o hi m ; and t here was a
youngst er, S i m on Tom bel a who was nex t t o m e and so on.
But t hey were i nvol ved wi t h ot her act i vi t i es, ri ght , and we
were i nvol ved wi t h t he pol i t i cal t hi ng.
Anyway, broadl y
t hat t i m e, I was det ai ned for about si x m ont hs. You know,
t hat was t he peri od w here ei t her you were t ort ured and t he
usual t hi ngs, and t hen what happened aft er t hat , t hey coul d
never have enough evi dence t o charge m e, ri ght . It was i n
t hat peri od t hat Nei l Agget t was ki l l ed by t hem al so, i n
l 981, I t hi nk.
Aft er t hat , I t hi nk t hi ngs m i ght have eased
up a bi t , I t hi nk you know, aft er hi s deat h, t he prot est s
from out si de, were m ount i ng and so on.
But at t hat t i m e,
t hey had charged, one of t he peopl e t hey charged was
Barbara Hogan.
You know, she’s now i n t he port fol i o -
she’s chai rs t he port fol i o on Fi nance, and t hen she served a
pri son t erm . But she was som ebody t hat I had al so worked
wi t h i n t hat peri od, you know.
And t hen t here was, t hey
al so charged you know, t wo ot her chaps. There was a chap
cal l ed P rem a Nai doo and S i ri sh.
They were al so charged,
because t hey hel ped t he guys who had escaped.
They had
sort of al l owed t hem t o escape. They t ook t hem across t he
border, up t o t he border and so on. They served a t wo -year
pri son t erm as wel l . S o som e peopl e were charged. Many
of t hem t hey coul dn’t , t hey di dn’t have enough evi dence.
M N: Is t hat l 981?
YM : J a, ‘81, ‘82.
M N: ‘81, ‘82.
YM : Okay t hen when. S orry.
34
M N: C an we go back t o 1977. The deat h of S t eve Bi ko; because
you m ent i oned earl i er on t hat you worked for t hi s Zi m el e.
How di d i t affect you, aft er t hat , I m ean, you were rai ded
because of t hat Zi m el e proj ect .
How di d you go on aft er
t hat ? Di d you st op, di d you, what , how was your react i on?
YM : W el l , for m e, i t was j ust a m at t er of t i m e, you know.
About , you know t hese rai d s and det ent i ons and so on. The
poi nt i s t hat wel l , you know, I have al ways sai d t hat t he
fi rst one, whi ch I had an i nt eract i on wi t h t hem was i n ‘73,
you know. It m i ght have been a bi t m ore shocki ng and so
on, but t he ot hers were real l y not t oo seri ous, but al so
because I was handl i ng pol i t i cal t ri al s, I had t o phone t hese
guys and t hey had t o com e i nt o m y offi ce and, you know,
ex hi bi t s i n court t ri al s and you’re i nt eract i ng wi t h t hem ,
you know, so i t was n’t , j a, I m ean i t di dn’t sort of st op m e,
you know , I t hi nk what , j ust t o go back t o m y
parent s,
because t hey fel t , you know, wel l I m ean t hey were al ways
support i ve, but aft er I cam e out , because I was rel eased you
know.
I was kept here at C R S wart unt i l about February,
March and t hen for about t wo m on t hs, I was t aken and kept
t here, because, you know I was kept i n Kem pt on P ark and
t aken t o J ohn Vorst er, ri ght . I was rel eased from J ohn
Vorst er, and t hen I went and spent a week wi t h m y parent s
before I cam e back t o Durban. But t hey al ways want ed m e
t o s ort of gi ve up pol i t i cs and change m y l i fe. You know,
but I t hi nk aft er t hat peri od, now I t hi nk, i n t hei r own
m i nds, t hey t hought wel l , t hi s chaps l earnt hi s l esson now,
you know, because see you know, j ust get t i ng rai ded and
charged i s real l y [ not ] a j ok e. W hen you real l y get sort of,
you're hel d i n sol i t ary for si x m ont hs, you know t hat , I
t hi nk for t hem I suppose i t ’s a t est you see, j a.
Now
hopeful l y, t hese chaps have t aught t hi s chap a l esson. He’s
goi ng t o now carry on and becom e a proper l awyer, a nd j ust
35
carry on wi t h hi s l i fe and gi ve al l of t hi s pol i t i cs up, I
m ean.
They respect ed what I di d.
They weren’t happy
about i t , because t hey had, i t ’s obvi ousl y for parent s, i t ’s
an anx i ous l i fe, t o fi nd t hat you’re act i vel y i nvol ved.
Anyway, t o cont i nu e wi t h t he st ory now, sorry.
M N: Now we can go back t o 1981, ‘82.
YM : J a, t hat ’s where I was goi ng t o pi ck i t up from . S o aft er I
cam e out , what we t hen di d was t hat i n t hat earl y ‘83 was,
you know you had, what had devel oped was, al l t hese ci vi c
organi sa t i ons, t he t rade uni on m ovem ent but , you know,
t here was a m ass m ovem ent t hat was devel opi ng, but t hey
needed coordi nat i on, ri ght .
Then som e of us were of t he
vi ew t hat m aybe t he t i m e i s ri ght t o t ry and form - we were
l ooki ng at , I had l i t erat ure on t he P hi l i ppi nes.
They had
what t hey cal l ed i n t he P hi l i ppi nes t he NDF, t he Nat i onal
Dem ocrat i c Front .
t here
was,
you
S o we st art ed a debat e.
know,
t here
was
a
W e fel t t hat
m eet i ng
hel d
in
J ohannesburg at t he C i t y Hal l , by t he, I t hi nk t hey had
agai n,
an
ant i -S AIC
[ S out h
com m i t t ee, at t hat t i m e.
Afri can
Indi an
C ounci l ]
They di dn’t have t he Transvaal
Indi an C ongress; and Al l an Boesak was goi ng t o be t he
guest speaker t here. S o we spoke t o hi m and asked hi m t o
say t hat t hi s m i ght be a good i dea t o - i f he agr ees wi t h t he
i dea, t o m ent i on i t i n hi s speech. But we used t hat t o form
t he com m i t t ees, you know, t o sort of t o say t hat t he i dea i s
a good one, t hat we shoul d go back and st art i nvest i gat e i t .
At l east i n t he t hree, sort of m aj or urban cent res, where we
had, you know t he net work, whi ch was C ape Town;
J ohannesburg and Durban.
Then we spent a l ot of ’82 -
was j ust i n t he prel i m i nary work, you know, whi ch l ed t o
t he em ergence of t he UDF [ Uni t ed Dem ocrat i c Front ] i n
l 983 t hen, you know, t here was a l aunch, ri ght and t hat was
i n l 983.
S o when i t was, i n Durban I was al ways part of
36
t hat com m i t t ee, t hat form ed i t , and for I suppose, for as
l ong as i t rem ai ned, I rem ai ned t he provi nci al secret ary of
t he UDF, i n t he sort of KZN regi on and on t he NEC .
So
t hen, t he UDF, I t hi nk, had i t ’s form al l aunch and I t hi nk
al l t hat i s fai rl y wel l docum ent ed, t hat peri od, i n ‘83, and
t hen you know, what you had i s t he whol e, sort of Vaal S ebokeng t hi ng. But you know, by ‘84, you had t hese m ass
upri si ngs al l over, and t hen y ou had, by ‘85, you had t hi s
Bot ha's R ubi con speech and t he count ry was get t i ng worse.
You had t he fi rst S t at e of Em ergency i n J ul y ‘85. Okay, so
aft er t hat Em ergency, t hat was when I was det ai ned agai n,
ri ght . That t i m e t he whol e of t he UDF NEC , t hose we re
rem ai ned around, t hey coul d get .
S o I t hi nk, you know,
agai n i t was m ysel f; I know Kurni ck Ndl ovu was det ai ned
wi t h m e and Ti t us Mofol o we were i n; Terror Lekot a and
P opo [ Mol efe] were t he general secret ari es, ri ght ; we were
hel d i n P ret ori a, at t hat t i m e. I was t aken from here, t hey
were i n P ret ori a as wel l , but t hey were awai t i ng t ri al
pri soners because t he Treason Tri al was goi ng on i n
P ret ori a. S o, al t hough I had been an at t orney, but agai n i n
pri son you al ways est abl i sh com m uni cat i on and so on, s o
anyhow I was i n t ouch wi t h t hem and we had our m et hods
of bei ng i n t ouch and so on, so I was abl e t o m ai nt ai n
cont act . Agai n, aft er t hat t hey di dn’t get enough evi dence.
S o aft er a few m ont hs, t hey rel eased us, ri ght . But at t he
sam e t i m e, you know, l i ke P raveen Gordhan, Bi l l y Nai r and
so on, were hel d i n Durban as wel l , and I t hi nk t hey had
t aken i n som e m ore of t he hi gh -profi l e peopl e, who were
not i nvol ved.
Al l an Boesak I t hi nk was det ai ned for a
whi l e. Farouk Meer I t hi nk was al so det ai ned, I t hi n k at
t hat t i m e.
S o t here were, t here were a whol e l ot of ot her
peopl e. You see t here were a num ber of peopl e i n t hat ‘85,
‘86 peri od who were bei ng kept i n P revent i ve det ent i on,
37
ri ght , and t hey were bei ng kept , not i n P ret ori a, i n t he
J ohannesburg pri son . S o I t hi nk t hat ’s, t hat peri od, t hen I
t hi nk agai n - j a, what had happened was t hat i n ‘85, you
know one of t he sort of t hi ngs t hat had happened I t hi nk for
m e, whi ch was si gni fi cant i s t hat , we had t o i nt eract . The
C om m onweal t h had form ed an Em i nent P ersons Group,
ri ght , whi ch was headed by Obasanj o, ri ght , t he current
l eader of Ni geri a and t he form er, one of t he form er P ri m e
Mi ni st ers of Aust ral i a now, I forget hi s nam e, I don’t t hi nk
i t was Hawke, i t was a conservat i ve guy, but I don’t know,
anyway, what ever hi s nam e was.
But what I real i sed for
t he fi rst t i m e, was t hat when t hese guys cam e t o us t hey
sai d, l ook, t hey were real l y t al ki ng about a negot i at ed
sol ut i on, set t l em ent , ri ght , because and we t hought we m ust
go t hrough t hi s ex erci se, but onl y aft er t hat di d I begi n
seri ousl y t o, I m ean I was j ust qui t e - I sai d "l ook, what do
you guys want ? "
W e had our whol e l ong l i st of dem ands,
com pl et e and uncondi t i onal surrender, you know, you
want ed at t hat t i m e.
But obvi ousl y i t got you t hi nki ng t o
say, ‘l ook we've real l y dent ed t hese guys and basi cal l y
you’ve got t o seri ousl y st art t hi nki ng.’
But al so duri ng
t hat peri od, al t hough I was underground, I had m ore, sort
of cont act s, because I was act i ng i n t wo Treason Tri al s,
ri ght , because wel l t he ot her s aga whi ch woul d have
occurred i n t hat peri od i n ‘84 woul d have been t he
consul at e dram a, agai n. I t hi nk, you’l l probabl y i nt ervi ew
som e of t he peopl e who were i n t here, so l et t hem t al k
m ore about t hat .
But t he consequence of, as a resul t of
t hat , what f ol l owed t hat was t hat , you know, i m m edi at el y
t hose peopl e were rel eased, t he m aj ori t y of t hem , from
t here, t oget her wi t h a whol e l ot of ot hers, l i ke Mam a
S i sul u, Frank C hi kane and ot hers were charged wi t h t hat
fi rst Treason Tri al i n Mari t z burg, ri ght , so.
Now because
38
of t hat , I had t o have, because a whol e l ot of t hi ngs were
t hat
t hey were sayi ng t hat
t hese peopl e, usi ng m ass
dem ocrat i c, part i cul arl y UDF pl at form s, ri ght , t o propagat e
t he ANC , t hat we were a front for t he ANC .
I m ean t he
essence of bot h t he Treason Tri al s was t hat , ri ght , and t hat
gave m e as a l awyer, a l egi t i m at e reason, I t hought t hey
won’t det ai n m e.
It di dn’t hel p t oo m uch, because t hey
st i l l di d. But you know t o go, so I m ade a num ber of t ri ps,
I t hi nk, t hen t o Lus aka and so on t o s ee. That t i m e, j a so
you know, i t was Ol i ver Tam bo was st i l l al i ve you know,
because I had t o i nt eract wi t h som e of t he t op l eadershi p,
wi t h hi m usual l y, and ot her sort of persons, ri ght .
Then
one had got t o know hi m and I used t o go oft en t o, because
I had
a passport , I was abl e t o, al t hough we were
underground from ‘86, ri ght , so l et m e j um p t o ‘85, you
had one Em ergency, i t was i n t he nat i onal Em ergency.
hi t cert ai n pocket s.
It
I was det ai ned i n t hat l at t er part of
‘85, but at l east , ‘86 t hen you got a ful l -scal e Em ergency,
ri ght , you know, whi ch we t hen went on, and t hen I t hi nk
t he si t uat i on was det eri orat i ng.
But t hen I had arranged
and faci l i t at ed t he m eet i ng bet ween t he l eadershi p of t he
ANC and t he UDF, ri ght . And t hat was i n ‘86. I rem em ber
we spent about j ust under a week t oget her, i t m ust have
been l ess, about t hree or four days i n a pl ace i n S weden,
j ust l ooki ng at st rat egi es and pol i cy and so on.
Then I
t hi nk we had com e back, and I t hi nk now i ncreasi ngl y I was
i nvol ved, I m anaged t o rem ai n undet ai ned, but t here were
peopl e, you know a l ot of peopl e got det ai ned when t hey
rai ded. Many of us were underground. But sl owl y peopl e
were get t i ng pi cked up and so we were t ryi ng t o run,
because Terror [ Lekot a] and P opo [ Mol efe] , who were t he
gen eral secret ary and publ i ci t y secret ary were det ai ned.
Then you had Murphy Morobe and Val l i [ Moosa] , ri ght , our
39
current Mi ni st er of Envi ronm ent al Affai rs and Touri sm ,
t hen t hey got det ai ned.
Then t hi s guy Ti t us Mofol o t ook
over. He’s worki ng wi t h Eri c, t hen t hey got det ai ned. But
aft er t hat , I t hi nk, t hese guys, you know Murphy and Val l i
went t o t he C onsul at e, t he US C onsul at e. The NIC guys
went t o t he Bri t i sh C onsul at e here i n Fi el d S t reet . S o t hey
were out at t hat t i m e, but t he l ong and short of i t i s , I
rem ai ned underground unt i l I was caught i n l 988. By t hat
t i m e, when I was caught , I t hi nk Govan Mbeki had al ready
been rel eased and a few m ont hs l at er he, wi t h W al t er and
Ahm ed Kat hrada, wi t h t hat groupi ng of peopl e, rel eased as
wel l .
S o I was t hen r est ri ct ed, ri ght , and I t hi nk t hen
al t hough I was rest ri ct ed, I was, oh j a, I went , we were
goi ng i n Decem ber now, I was goi ng t o t he Transkei now
for a hol i day, ri ght .
S o, now I was wi t h a noi sy group.
You know i t was j ust t he S hai k fam i l y, ri ght .
Now t he
S hai k brot hers; and Vi no wi l l know t hi s l ot , ri ght . S o we
go i nt o t hi s W i m py rest aurant at si x , seven i n t he m orni ng,
because we l eft at four i n t he m orni ng. I real i sed now we
shoul dn’t have done t hat because t hey had a securi t y
pol i cem an who had, yo u know, sort of arrest ed, det ai ned
m e, seen m e. S o t hey cal l ed m e asi de and al l t hat , and sai d
but , now I’m m ore worri ed about t hem not t aki ng us
because t hese S hai k guys had been underground, at t hat
t i m e. They had j ust been rel eased. S o I’m sayi ng t o t hem ;
I went and saw t hese guys and so on. No l ook, I sai d, "j a
m an
l ook,
but
i t ’s
C hri st m as
now."
It
was
bet ween
C hri st m as and New Year or som et hi ng. I sai d, "W here’s
your fest i ve spi ri t ?
I’m not doi ng anyt hi ng.
I’m doi ng anyt hi ng pol i t i cal here.
C an you see
I’m here because I’m
havi ng a hol i day." And I t ol d t hem som e st ory, we were
goi ng t o Ori bi Gorge, and we’re j ust t aki ng a dri ve and
we’re busy goi ng back, and al l t hat .
And t ypi cal of m y
40
rebel l i ous nat ure, l et ’s j ust , l et ’s wai t for t hem t o dri ve
off, we’l l go t o t he Transkei , t hey can’t cat ch us t here.
W hen I com e back I’l l face t he m usi c.
S o I got charged
agai n, ri ght . Now, by t he t i m e, t he l aw works sl owl y. By
t he t i m e I got back, i t was earl y ‘89, t hey cam e and t wo,
t hree m ont hs l at er, t hey brought t hi s charge sheet .
So I
was surpri sed t hat t hey were goi ng t o charge m e. Anyway,
by t he t i m e we had al l t he - but by now, you
know
al l
t hese guys had been rel eased, you know, t here was W al t er
and t hem and t here was t al k and al l t hat , and t he t r i al kept
on get t i ng post poned, so t hen we knew t hat t hi s De Kl erk
was goi ng t o m ake t he st at em ent , you see where, t hen t here
was t hat st at em ent .
S o t he t ri al I t hi nk was schedul ed
agai n for February l 990, you know, so we sai d t o t he
Magi st rat e, no adj ourn t hi s, we want t o go and l i st en t o t hi s
speech. S o t hey cam e back and t hen we sai d, "no l ook, t hi s
i s what he’s sayi ng.
He’s unbanni ng t he organi sat i on and
you’re chargi ng m e, wel l wi t h a t echni cal offence. S houl d
you not go and t ake i nst ruct i ons agai n and al l t hat ."
And
t hey sai d, "no, l et ’s carry on wi t h t he t ri al ." S o anyway we
sai d "al ri ght , we’l l carry on."
I t hi nk, we’re not goi ng t o
carry on t oday or som et hi ng. W e got som e t echni cal reason
and we adj ourned i t . Then I t hi nk a m ont h or
t wo
l at er,
t hey cam e t o m e, t hey sai d "al ri ght , no t he charges are
wi t hdrawn." Because for t hem i t woul d have been st upi d t o
proceed, you know, i f you are sort of ent eri ng a cl i m at e of
t hi s t hi ng [ negot i at i on] .
J a, t hen I t hi nk aft er t hat what
had happened wa s t hat , as far as t he UDF and
you
know,
you had t he ANC unbanned, and one of t he probl em s t hat
we had t o al ways
cont end wi t h was, whet her t he UDF,
whet her we want ed t o set oursel ves up as an al t ernat e
l eadershi p, t hat was m ore popul ar t han t hose guys who
were i n ex i l e.
I t hi nk i n som e way, t he t ensi on rem ai ns,
41
but I i ni t i al l y sai d, not for t he reason t hat we want ed t o be
an al t ernat e, I j ust t hi nk t hat i t woul d have been good, i f
t he UDF had rem ai ned, I m ean.
I argued t hat posi t i on
openl y, but I t hi nk t he m aj ori t y vi ew was, t hat no we m ust
di sband t he organi sat i on. I real i sed t hat t here was a cl i m at e
of suspi ci on and so on, and so we t hen sort of deci ded and
t he deci si on for l 990/ l 991 we cl osed t he organi sat i on, you
know, and t hi ngs di scont i nued. But I had al so, i n m y own
m i nd deci ded t hat l ook, once you have t hi s vi ew, on t he
process t o t hi s pol i t i cal freedom , I di dn’t want t o be a
pol i t i ci an i n t he cl assi c sense, you know. Now I don’t get
i t so m uch, but i n t he ‘94/ 95 peri od, peopl e cam e up t o m e,
"wh y are you not i n P arl i am ent ? "
Because t hey ex pect t hat
your, i f you have had an act i ve pol i t i cal l i fe of st ruggl e,
t hat t he l ogi cal pl ace you want t o end up i s act ual l y t hat .
W hat I deci ded t o do was, t hen I cam e back t o t hi s
i nst i t ut i on. I di d an MBA, ri ght from ‘91 t o ‘93. S o I got
an MBA degree, because for m e, i f you now had m oved,
you know t o econom i c l i berat i on, t hen so I di dn’t sort of
l eft pol i t i cs. W hen I com pl et ed m y MBA; t hen I was asked
agai n by peopl e t o run t he el ect i on, so we, I had sor t of,
al t hough you know you can’t undo your pol i t i cal hi st ory. I
hadn’t been i nvol ved. I was, I t hi nk I was an ordi nary sort
of branch m em ber, you know, at som e l evel , but I had never
been act i ve, I probabl y di dn’t even renew m y m em bershi p,
because I was so busy wi t h m y st udi es.
t i m e t o act i vel y part i ci pat e.
S o I di dn’t have
I m ean, I was cal l ed i n from
t i m e t o t i m e but m ore as a ki nd of, I was a bi t young t o be
an el der, but when t hese guys are fi ght i ng, t he youngst ers
used t o, I rem em ber t hat area, Gr eenwood P ark, i t ’s one of
t he areas where t hey al ways fi ght wi t h each ot her, you
know, bet ween Effi ngham and Greenwood P ark. And I was
asked
to
com e
and
m edi at e
bet ween
som e
di fferent
42
groupi ngs, but i t was t hose ki nds of act i vi t i es. But real l y I
wasn’t ho l di ng an offi ce posi t i on, and at t hat t i m e, even
t he area where I was sort of st ayi ng, t he P hoeni x area, but I
wasn’t act i vel y i nvol ved. S o t hen i t was fi ne. I t hi nk, i n
t he t al ks at C ODES A, t hey needed t o fi nd peopl e who, wel l
every part y t rust ed, becau se you know t he person who was
head of t he di rect orat e was t he Di rect or -General of Hom e
Affai rs and you know, t here was m ysel f and t here was
anot her chap cal l ed C hi nga Madi ba from Transkei , and he
had been part of Hol i m i sa’s governm ent , he was a DEG.
S o t he t hree of us had t o run t hi s el ect i on.
S o I was
i nvol ved for a year, for ‘93, ‘94 unt i l aft er t he el ect i on. S o
you know, j ust t i l l I st ayed around for a whi l e t o wi nd up.
And j a, t hat ’s basi cal l y, aft er t hat I’ve j ust been sort of
carryi ng on, m ore so rt of servi ng on boards and so on.
W hat I di d for Governm ent was, I served on t he board of
t he Ai rport s C om pany, and t hen I’ve done som e t hi ngs for
t he Mi ni st ry. I t hi nk, at t hat t i m e P al l o J ordan had got m e,
I
wrot e
a
fi shi ng
pol i cy
for
t hem
and
chai red
a
t ransform at i on, a Fi sheri es Transform at i on C ounci l , unt i l
‘99, so you know t hat ’s, now I’m sort of a l awyer, but I
don’t , you know, I m ore i nt o sort of, because of m y MBA.
I j ust do corporat e l aw and I’m doi ng busi ness - rel at ed
t hi ngs, but t hat ’s i n sum m ary, t he essence, now of al l t hat I
have t o say.
M N: C an we com e back t o l 989?
YM : Okay.
M N: W hat do you t hi nk l ed t o t he Nat i onal i st P art y openi ng t he
doors; I m ean st art i ng t hese t ransform at i ons or changes?
YM : You know, t he poi nt i s t hat , you know t her e were, as I sai d
because when I real i sed when t hese guys, t hi s Em i nent
P ersons Group, you know cam e here, t hey were sayi ng t hat ,
t he Governm ent was i n seri ous cri si s ri ght .
Okay, I t hi nk
43
fi rst l y t hat , you know we had a sl ogan i n t he UDF "m ake
t he count r y ungovernabl e."
The poi nt i s t hat t hey were
l osi ng, t here were si t uat i ons, I don’t want t o go i nt o t oo
m uch of a pol i t i cal di scourse, what we cal l , you know, you
have
si t uat i ons
t here
are
cert ai n t ownshi ps t hat
t hey
coul dn’t ent er. The poi nt i s t hat I m u st say m ysel f, t hat you
know, our anal ysi s was correct , when we sort of l aunched
t he UDF, ri ght , but t he ex t ent of t he ki nd of pent -up m ass
anger and support we got , was beyond our ex pect at i ons,
ri ght . I m ean, you were si t t i ng i n t hat NEC , you were not
i n cont rol of t hat organi sat i on, you were i n cont rol of t he
organi sat i on i n a form al sense, but t he poi nt i s, i t was a
front . S o what was sprout i ng up al l over t he show and t he
rat e at whi ch i t was growi ng. S o fi rst l y, t hat
happened.
S econdl y, t hat aft er t hat R ubi con speech, t he poi nt i s when
you becom e, when you don’t have cont rol , peopl e di dn’t
have fai t h. They were not goi ng t o i nvest . P eopl e were
di vest i ng from t he count ry. S o t here was onl y one pat h.
You coul d have gone you know, l i ke m aybe, Israel and
P al est i ne i s a cl assi c ex am pl e we’re l i vi ng wi t h. That ’s
what we coul d have becom e or you had t o si t around ri ght .
You know, I m ean, I rem em ber si t t i ng i n som e room ...
[ i nt errupt i on]
M N: C an we pause?
END OF R EC OR DING ON S IDE A
R ES UMP TION ON S IDE B
M N: W el com e back. You were t el l i ng us about t he R ubi con
speech effect and you were t aki ng us t hrough t he reasons of
why t he Nat i onal P art y rel ent ed.
YM : Okay, j a I t hi nk, j a i n a sense everybody uses t hat R ubi con
speech, you know as a ki nd of t urni ng poi nt , you know.
For m e you know i t was, as I say I was i nt eract i ng duri ng
t hat peri od and short l y t here aft erwards, t hi s Em i nent
44
P ersons Group ri ght . But you know I al so sai d t o you
because of bot h m y ol d underground [ work] and as a l awyer
for a l ot of t he hi gh -profi l e defendant s. You see, because
you know, al t hough even from m y fi rm , we handl ed a l ot of
t he t ri al s, you know I had t he youngest st aff m em bers
deal i ng wi t h t he publ i c vi ol ence cases because t he probl em
i s, i f you’ve got , you know you’ve got Terror [ Lekot a]
who’s your cl i ent ; or a Mac Maharaj , you know, you’ve got
t o i nt eract wi t h t hem ; t hey ex pect t o see you; and t he poi nt
i s t hey’re fri ends al so; you know so i t was at a di fferent
l evel , but al so I was i nt eract i ng.
S o I had, j ust m eet i ngs
wi t h a l o t of t he l eadershi p peopl e i n t he ANC , at t he t op,
whet her i t was Tam bo, Mbeki or S l ovo or Mac, you know,
i t was or Zum a, you know i t was, you were i nt eract i ng, so
m aybe I had m ore i nsi ght .
in
di ffi cul t y,
ri ght ,
and
S o I knew t hat t he regi m e was
t hey
need ed
to
go
for
a
com prom i se. I don’t t hi nk, I t hi nk what you had i s t hat one
a si t uat i on of dual -power but on t he ot her hand, t he ANC
was
not
in
a
posi t i on
m i l i t ari l y,
to
overt hrow
t he
Governm ent . The poi nt i s t hat t hey real i sed t hat , ri ght , and
i t becam e e vi dent t o m e over a num ber of di scussi ons, you
know, t hat we have t o l ook at a negot i at ed set t l em ent , and
we need t o, and we're goi ng t o have t o ki nd of m anage t he
m i l i t ancy on our si de and t hat was goi ng t o happen. You
know, recent l y I m et one of t hese yo ungst ers, now he’s a
ki nd a general m anager, regi onal m anager for t he Afrox groupi ng here i n Durban, ri ght . In l 989 he was a st udent ,
m edi cal st udent som ewhere, but i n NUS AS .
S o, he’s says
t o m e, "you know, Yunus..." - rem em ber when I m et hi m
now about a m ont h or t wo m ont hs ago - "I’l l never forget
you."
I sai d, "what , why, what happened? " He says, no I
was addressi ng a l ot of sm al l groupi ngs al l over. S o I went
t o t he guy and sai d what you need t o st art t hi nki ng about ,
45
i s t hat l ook we’re goi ng t o have a negot i at ed set t l em ent
here, not we wi l l , but t here’s a hi gh probabi l i t y. You know,
t he regi m e i s i n t roubl e, we can’t t ake power, I’m sayi ng
ex act l y t he ki nd of t hi ngs, and I t hi nk t he poi nt i s, t hat we
can m ove t he count ry forward best , and I t hi nk t ha t ’s a l ot
of t he debat e t hat i s goi ng on wi t hi n t he l eadershi p.
You’ve got t o st art consi deri ng t hat . Then he t el l s m e, he
says,
"Aft er you wal ked out t he room , I sai d who’s t hi s
l ooney fel l ow here, t al ki ng about a negot i at ed set t l em ent ? "
He says, "but when t hi s t hi ng happened, you know, I
coul dn’t forget you, because you know, you had sai d t hat t o
m e." You know, but I t hi nk t hat ’s t he short answer t o your
quest i on.
M N: Thank
you.
Now
C ODES A
cam e.
C ODES A
t he
negot i at i ons, when you sai d you were part of i t .
YM : W el l , I was m argi nal l y i nvol ved.
I sai d you know, t he
poi nt i s I was doi ng m y MBA, ri ght . The poi nt i s t hat , you
know,
t hey
had
i ncl uded
al l
t he
sort
of
pol i t i cal
organi sat i ons and so on, so you know, I was st i l l on t he by t hat t i m e t he UDF w as di ssol ved, but you st i l l had t he
Nat al Indi an C ongress, and so we had seat s and so on, and I
you know, sort of be a gap -fi l l er for som e peopl e.
But i t
wasn’t what I want ed t o do wi t h m y l i fe, you know, so I
used t o go, j ust t o hel p out , but I wasn’t ce nt ral t o
di scussi ons and I used t o go m ore as a ki nd of a dut y t o
assi st ot hers.
it.
You know, but m y heart and soul wasn’t i n
I was doi ng t hat you see, because when I st art ed t he
MBA, you know, Farouk Meer sai d t o m e, l ook you’re
goi ng
no, Farouk.
t o drop out aft e r si x m ont hs or so.
S o I sai d
But anyway, l et ’s see. You know, I deci ded I
know where I want t o go wi t h m y l i fe, t hen. You know, I
was cl ear t hat t hat MBA was goi ng t o get preference. You
know, because t he MBA i s a course, you know, I don’t
46
know how t hey val ue i t now, but basi cal l y you have t o
work duri ng t he day. You have t o at t end courses from fi ve
t o ei ght , ni ne o’cl ock at ni ght . A l ot of m y fri ends ended
up havi ng t hei r own dom est i c ki nd of l i ves i n
di ffi cul t y, and t hey t el l you t hat b efore.
You have t o go
for a psychom et ri c t est . You know, so i t ’s dem andi ng. You
know, you’ve got t o m ake choi ces about l i fe and I t hi nk
t hat ’s a choi ce I had m ade.
M N: S om e peopl e have voi ced som e reservat i ons about t he
com posi t i on of C ODES A. S om e peop l e have l i ke have
reservat i on about t he i ncl usi on of t he Hom el and l eaders
and al l t hat . W ere you okay wi t h t he com posi t i on?
YM : W el l , l et ’s say t hat , t he poi nt i s t hat I di dn’t see i t as t he
Hom el and l eaders, you know, shoul d have been t here. But
I t hi nk , t he poi nt i s t hat , you know, what Mandel a sai d,
t hat
if
you’re
genui nel y
negot i at i ng,
it
is
about
com prom i se. S o you can’t have everyt hi ng t hat you want . A
good negot i at i on succeeds because each si de i s sayi ng,
"t hi s i s what I’d l i ke t o have, but okay I’ m gi vi ng i n on
t hi s and you gi ve i n on t hat ."
You know, and for m e,
gi vi ng i n on t he i ssue of, t hose ki nd of, you know t hose
sort of what we had cal l ed t he col l aborat or ki nd of part i es,
t hose Hom el and governm ent s and so on, bei ng t here, was
som et hi ng I co ul d l i ve wi t h.
M N: Even t he i ncl usi ons of t he, are you i n t hat Hom el ands, do
you i ncl ude t he R aj bansi s, and al l ?
YM : J a, I was, I m ean you know, I st i l l t hi nk I m ean, I t hi nk
t oday i t ’s t he wrong st rat egy, st i l l .
But I’m sayi ng, you
know i t ’s som et hi ng, you know I don’t i n pri nci pl e have an
opposi t i on t o t hat , you know because, what I’m sayi ng i s
t hat he wi l l argue t hat he was doi ng what , because you
m ust rem em ber when I t ol d you t he ot her st ory about ‘79,
you know i t ’s a t act i cal t hi ng, ri ght .
You know for m e I
47
don’t t hi nk, I don’t t hi nk t hat ’s a t act i cal i ssue for
R aj bansi , I m ean he’s i n a di fferent ket t l e of fi sh.
But I
don’t react em ot i onal l y t o t hat , I m ean I’ve heard t he
debat e and I’ve sai d t o t hem .
I was on t he ot her si de
because agai n, you se e, m aybe because of m y i nt eract i ons,
a l ot m ore wi t h t he l eadershi p, you know i n t he ANC . You
know, because t he poi nt i s, you see, when you m eet
Obasanj o and he says t o you, "Yunus, do you want t o rul e
t hi s count ry, or are you goi ng t o keep on m aki ng t hes e
unreal i st i c dem ands? You know, you are not i n a posi t i on
t o defeat t hese guys.” You know, because you know, asi de
from m eet i ng t hem form al l y, you know I rem em ber.
I
m ean, t he one t hi ng for m e, you know j ust t o gi ve you one.
W e were i n C ape Town at t he C ape S un Hot el and I
rem em ber i t was Kurni ck Ndl ovu, Trevor Manuel and
m ysel f. W e were si t t i ng wi t h Obasanj o i n hi s pri vat e sui t e
now, not wi t h t he ot her guys.
The S A Ai r Force at t hat
t i m e, i n l 995 bom bed t he refugee cam ps i n Bot swana. S o I
sai d, I wa s, i t ’s bad i n a sense, but peopl e were bei ng
ki l l ed, but i t was a rel i ef but t he poi nt i s t hat , t hat put pai d
t o t hose t al ks, you see, because t he EP G [ Em i nent P ersons
Group] sai d, wel l t hese guys are not seri ous, ri ght , because
I was worri ed t hat , you kn ow. W e needed t o, you know, I
j ust needed t o do a l ot m ore t hi nki ng wi t hi n m ysel f, you
know, i n m y own m i ndset t o st art sayi ng.
How are we
prepared t o govern t hi s count ry and what does i t do, ri ght .
Now, you know; t hen when I went t o Lusaka you know, l i ke
O.R . [ Ol i ver R egi nal d Tam bo] was sayi ng t o m e.
Look,
and you know, by t hat t i m e I was m eet i ng, you know, al l
t hese
guys,
Zol a
S kweyi ya
and
Mat t hews
P hosa
and
[ P enuel ] Maduna, because t hey cam e down t o us. Now we
had st art ed a l egal t hi ng, but t hey wer e prepari ng sayi ng,
how are we goi ng t o run t he j ust i ce syst em , you know. S o
48
i t wasn’t , t he poi nt i s t hat , you know, i t depends where
you’re com i ng from .
I suppose, you know I was i n a
di fferent cont ex t , i t was di fferent .
I m ean, you know t he
poi nt i s t hat t he R aj bansi 's or t he Mangope's, were real l y
goi ng t o be i rri t ant s, t hey had nui sance val ue. They real l y,
t hey, i t was De Kl erk and oursel ves, you know, who were
goi ng t o real l y be t he guys deci di ng on t he power t hi ng. S o
whet her he want ed t o use t he se guys t o bol st er hi m sel f a
l i t t l e bi t , and t hey m ade a bi t of a noi se. They real l y di dn’t
m at t er at t he end of t he day, and you know m y vi ew, when I
had argued wi t h som e peopl e, t hat you’re m i s -focusi ng, by
focusi ng on t hese guys, because t hey’re peri ph eral . I know
em ot i onal l y, you’re ri ght , I m ean t hey are, you see t here’s a
l ot m ore noi se, you know and t hi s was som e of m y fri ends
who were m aki ng i t . S o i t ’s fi ne, I’l l t el l t hem , you know
I’ve sai d t hi s t o t hem al so, so i t ’s not hi ng t o hi de.
That
you focus t oo m uch on t hose ki nd of sm al l i ssues.
So I
don’t know whet her, i t wasn’t an i ssue for m e, but
fort unat el y or unfort unat el y, but t hat was t he fact .
M N: Am I ri ght i n sayi ng, t hat you don’t feel l i ke t he freedom
fi ght ers or t he freedom m ovem ent s, c om prom i sed a l ot
duri ng t he negot i at i ons. I'm basi ng t hi s on your quot at i on
of Madi ba t hat "you cannot wi n al l , you cannot have
everyt hi ng."
YM : J a, I m ean for m e t hat i s j ust , t here’s no doubt at al l i n m y
m i nd, ri ght .
You see, because I t hi nk i f we had n’t gone
t hat rout e, t hat what woul d have been happeni ng i n t hi s
count ry, t hen P al est i ne woul d have been a j oke. You know
t he poi nt i s t hat , because you see t he t hi ng i s we woul d
have been i n a ki nd of si t uat i on, we’d not have; t hey were
m i l i t ari l y very p owerful .
W e were not i n a posi t i on t o do
t hat yet . W e coul d have caused a whol e l ot of unt ol d
dam age; t hat t he count ry woul d have gone down t he
49
preci pi ce and nobody woul d have been bet t er off, but we
woul d have ended up wi t h a devast at ed count ry, i n a
si t uat i on.
You know, war i s for m e, t he poi nt i s, you see
t he di fference wi t h t he ANC agai n, I don’t want t o com e
across di dact i cal l y, but t he poi nt i s, every t i m e when MK
was form ed i n ‘61, you know t he debat e t here, t he di vi si ons
i t caused, i t ’s al ways t he re. You see, you onl y undert ake a
m i l i t ary st ruggl e, t hough I support ed i t , you know, and
woul d st i l l support t hose deci si ons I t hi nk, I t hi nk t hose
were correct .
But t hey are, i s an ex t ensi on of your
pol i t i cal - t he pol i t i cs al ways rem ai n i n com m and. Yo u
don’t becom e m i l i t ari st i n t he process. S o for m e t here was
never any quest i on t hat t he deci si on ul t i m at el y was t he
correct one.
M N: Now,
com i ng
to
t he
quest i on
R econci l i at i on [ C om m i ssi on] .
of
t he
Trut h
and
W as i t a necessi t y, was i t
ri ght ? Di d we n eed i t i n t hi s form ? The reason I’m aski ng
i s because I’ve heard som e vi ews, sayi ng t hat we were t oo
l eni ent , we shoul d have had a Nurem berg ki nd of a t hi ng, a
Nurem berg t ri al ki nd of a t hi ng, not t he Trut h C om m i ssi on.
W hat ’s your opi ni on on t he TR C ?
YM : W el l , m y opi ni on on t he TR C i s t hat , no I t hi nk i t was fi ne.
It served a purpose, ri ght . If you ask m e, I di dn’t m ent i on
anyt hi ng, any rol e m ysel f i n t he TR C .
You know, I
suppose I j ust t ake a vi ew t hat , you know you’re i nvol ved
i n t he st ruggl e, you kno w you have casual t i es, so I went i n
wi t h
my
eyes
open.
You
know,
I
know
what
t he
consequences were, so for m e I di dn’t sort of fi nd t he need,
but t hat ’s not , I’m not sayi ng, t herefore t here was no need,
I’m di st i ngui shi ng, so t hi nk t here was a need becaus e t here
were a l ot of ot her peopl e who fel t i t was a good process. I
t hi nk i t was t he correct process.
I m ean, I t hi nk t here
m i ght be probl em s wi t h som e of t he det ai l s.
But I t hi nk
50
what you’re focusi ng i s on t he bi g pi ct ure bet ween t he
Nurem berg.
I t hi nk t hat t he Nurem berg t hi ng was not
goi ng t o be for m e t he ri ght ki nd of t hi ng.
S ee, i t com es
back t o t he earl i er poi nt we were m aki ng, when you asked
m e whet her I was com fort abl e wi t h t he negot i at i ons.
You
see, once you go for com prom i se, t hen al l your i nst i t ut i ons
t hat you set up aft er t hat m ust , are based on t hat prem i se,
t hat you know.
You had Nurem berg, because t he Naz i s
were defeat ed by t he Al l i es. They were vi ct ors, t hey coul d
hol d Nurem berg.
Here you had a negot i at ed set t l em ent .
W here you have a negot i at ed set t l em ent , you need t o
negot i at e t hat .
You know, t he poi nt i s t hat t here were
ex cesses on al l si des, you know. The poi nt i s we were not
i n cont rol . I t hi nk neckl aci ng of peopl e, you know, whi ch
was happeni ng t o, t here m ay have been col l ab orat ors, i n
som e cases t here probabl y were.
My probl em i s t hat , you
see Tut u was ri ght . Ini t i al l y I react ed t o Tut u when he sai d
t hat .
Look, you see for m e, i t ’s t o say.
It doesn’t m at t er
how i nhum an m y opponent i s. You see i t ’s a quest i on t hat
we
al ways
confront ed,
as
a
l awyer,
you’re
al ways
confront ed wi t h t hat , you see t hi s i n t he TV seri es, ri ght .
Is t hat , you can’t go and operat e by t he rul es of your
enem i es, you know because you dehum ani se yoursel f i n t he
process, you see.
S o, som et i m es, you know , you’re goi ng
t o do t hi ngs whi ch don’t seem t o be very fai r. My poi nt i s
t hat , i f you l ose t hose val ues, you know, t hat you st and by
and you don’t appl y t hem uni versal l y, t hen t here’s a
probl em , because i t becom es di ffi cul t t o say when you’re
goi ng t o dr aw t hat l i ne.
M N: Di d we achi eve t he t rut h, t hough, out
of t he Trut h
C om m i ssi on? The reason I’m aski ng i s because up t o now,
we don’t know how S t eve Bi ko di ed.
51
YM : J a, you know, I t hi nk t here are short fal l s, i n t erm s of t hat
process. The poi nt i s t hat what I’m sayi ng i s t hat for m e; I
know t hat t he pol i ce ki l l ed S t eve Bi ko, you know, so I
know how he di ed. I m ean I don’t know i t as a fact . The
probl em i s, t hat I m ean, but t he poi nt i s so m uch i s
ci rcum st ant i al evi dence. Okay, you know, I was t here, y ou
know, I was m aybe m uch m ore cl oser t o event s i n 1977,
when he di ed and so on.
There were peopl e who seei ng
hi m and com i ng and so on, at t hat t i m e. But you know for
m e i t ’s real l y, you know, i t doesn’t , I m ean I’m t al ki ng
very personal l y now, because i t ’s a personal i nt ervi ew.
The fact t hat som e com m i ssi on i s goi ng t o fi nd t hat t he
cops ki l l ed hi m , you know, i s real l y not goi ng t o t el l m e, i t
doesn’t hel p m e, you know.
I’m sayi ng t hat t here were a
l ot of peopl e who gave t hei r l i ves for t he st ruggl e.
S t eve
was one of t hem , and I don’t have any doubt s t hat he was
ki l l ed by t hem .
I m ean, t he poi nt i s t hat , t here are
i ncont rovert i bl e fact s, even, t he poi nt i s t hat , i f you t ake
t he i nquest records, you know, whi ch [ S ydney] Kent ri dge
ran and so on, I’ve re ad al l t hose records.
I m ean, you
don’t have t o be real l y, I’m a l awyer, but I’m j ust speaki ng.
S o for m e, you know, wel l l et m e m aybe m ake a sort of
fi nal poi nt on t hat .
You see, I som et i m es feel t hat , l ook
you have bad ex peri ences i n l i fe, l et ’s say e ven i n busi ness,
you know. Not al l your vent ures are successful , ri ght . The
probl em i s t hat you need t o som et i m es, cl ose t he chapt er
and m ove on i n l i fe, ri ght , and say, yes t here was a bad
peri od, a l ot was done wrong. You needed t he Trut h and
R econci l i at i on C om m i ssi on. You see I support ed Trut h but
I al so sai d t hat i t m ust have l i m i t ed sort of l i fespan and a
l i m i t ed t erm s of reference. The probl em i s, i f we keep on
sort of goi ng back, you know, we're now ei ght years si nce
‘94, you know i t ’s si nce 1990 when Madi ba was rel eased
52
and a l ot of t hese t hi ngs happened.
t wel ve years past .
You know, we now
How l ong do we go on t ryi ng t o fi nd
t hat out , and I’m sayi ng t here’s a l ot of pecul i ar t hi ng here.
You have peopl e from t he hol ocaust st i l l , ki nd of al m ost
obsessed,
you
know,
wi t h
t ryi ng
to
fi nd
t hese
Naz i
cri m i nal s. I’m sayi ng t hose guys are i n t hei r ni net i es now,
ri ght . You know, t he poi nt i s, even i f you fi nd t hem real l y,
you know, i t m i ght , you know, okay som e t rut h i s goi ng t o
com e out . I t hi nk even t hei r vi ct i m s are now m ost of t hem
woul d be dead or are sort of reachi ng ol d age.
At som e
poi nt , you’ve got t o cl ose chapt ers i n hi st ory, you know,
ot herwi se you spend t oo m uch of t i m e and energy focusi ng
on t hose t hi ngs, and I’m not sure, for m e, ri ght , personal l y,
whet her i t ’s real l y sort of hel ps you or deepens your
underst andi ng.
M N: W el l now we’re now st i l l on t he TR C t hi ng. You say t hat
you di dn’t subm i t , you di dn’t do any subm i ssi ons on i t , you
di dn’t part i ci pat e at al l ?
YM : No.
M N: C om i ng back t o, you’re weari ng your ANC cap now.
The
ANC was m ore advocat i ng t he nat i onal i sat i on as a pol i cy.
Al l of a sudden now, t hey l ean t owards pri vat i sat i on.
W hat ’s your opi ni on on i t ?
YM : I agree wi t h i t .
You see, you can cal l m e - t he poi nt i s
t hat , you s ee, you know, you’ve got t o t ake a ki nd of
pract i cal vi ew, ri ght . I m ay not agree wi t h t he Governm ent
on som e of t hei r pol i ci es, but as far as t hei r pol i cy, you see
I’m not , I don’t agree, I t hi nk I support t he pol i cy of
pri vat i sat i on, ri ght i n t he way t h at t he Governm ent i s doi ng
it.
S o you know I don’t have a probl em wi t h t hat .
You
know, I t hi nk I have a, you know t hat ’s for m e, m aybe j ust
havi ng, you know from and I say from havi ng done m y
MBA and becom i ng j ust m ore i nvol ved i n t he busi ness
53
worl d, ri g ht . That you know, you’ve got t o t ake a real i st i c
vi ew, ri ght .
And t he poi nt i s t hat , you l i ve i n a worl d
where you can’t prevent gl obal i sat i on, you see.
Now you
can’t t ake a vi ew t hat you’re goi ng t o go backwards, ri ght .
One of t he di fferences I had wi t h cert ai n sort of sect ors of
t he Bl ack C onsci ousness m ovem ent was, t hi s busi ness of
what t hey cal l com m unal i sm , ri ght .
Means t o say t hat we
were, before t he whi t e m an cam e, we l i ved very ni cel y i n
our kraal s, we were cat t l e herders and so on, and we m u st
go back t o t hat . That ’s rom ant i c. That ’s an i dyl l i c vi ew of
l i fe.
To m e t he worl d, t here’s a gl obal worl d, i t wi l l
becom e sm al l er. You know, your m eans of com m uni cat i on
are j ust goi ng t o spread, and t he poi nt i s, we’re a sm al l part
of t he uni verse, so advances are goi ng t o do t hat . There are
devel oped count ri es t hat have got work.
rel at e t o t hem .
but
You’ve got t o
Not al l , I’m not sayi ng i n a servi l e way,
you’ve
got
to
be
real i st i c
about
it,
ri ght ,
ot herwi se you are not goi ng t o get econom i c devel opm ent
and growt h.
If you don’t get i nvest m ent s, you’ve got t o
m anage how you get t hat i nvest m ent , but you see, i f you
don’t , what you need.
W e’ve got hi gh unem pl oym ent ,
unl ess we goi ng t o get i nvest m ent , we are goi ng t o say how
we are com pet i t i ve.
econom y.
W e a re not goi ng t o grow t he
Now I’m sayi ng, you can’t pul l out and say, as
S out h Afri ca, we’re not part of t hi s gl obal i sat i on, we’re
goi ng t o go i t on our own.
I m ean, t hat ’s what apart hei d,
wel l I’m not sayi ng t hat ’s what t he peopl e are t ryi ng t o do,
t hey are not goi ng t o bri ng i n t he ot her part s of apart hei d.
But t here was a pol i cy of i nward i ndust ri al i sat i on, t hey
want ed t o i sol at e t hem sel ves from t he rest of t he worl d, i t
di dn’t work.
M N: Are you happy wi t h t he t ransform at i on i n t he count ry, i n al l
spheres?
54
YM : W el l , I can’t say, I suppose, I’m not happy wi t h i t i n al l
spheres, but j a, I t hi nk on bal ance, ri ght , I t hi nk t hat yes,
we’ve got a count ry t hat i s, t hat ’s peaceful , t hat ’s st abl e,
t hat ’s growi ng, t hat ’s pl ayi ng a l eadi ng rol e i n Afri c a. J a,
I t hi nk i f one has, on a l ot of det ai l ed i ssues, I wi l l have a
l ot of quest i ons and di fferences.
But t hat i s goi ng t o
requi re a whol e det ai l ed di scourse now, dependi ng on what
pol i ci es one’s t al ki ng about .
M N: Are you happy wi t h what i s happeni ng now, I m ean
t hroughout your act i vi sm and t hroughout your l i fe,
you’ve been st ruggl i ng for.
out com e
of
your
st ruggl e
what
Are you happy wi t h t he
in
t he
count ry?
Not
you
personal l y, but i s i t what you fought for?
YM : W el l , i t ’s part l y what I fought for ri g ht . Let m e say t hat i n
a short answer. The part t hat I’m not happy about i s t hat , I
t hi nk t hat , i s what I fought for was a bet t er l i fe for al l our
peopl e. The one t hi ng t hat t he Governm ent i s doi ng i s
focusi ng t oo m uch on ex t ernal i ssues and not enough o n
i m provi ng t he l i ves of ordi nary peopl e. S o I do feel we can
do m uch m ore t o creat e j obs and t o eradi cat e povert y, t o
have econom i c devel opm ent and t here m ust be a m uch m ore
i nward focus.
S o t o t hat ex t ent I support t he C OS ATUS
and so on. W hat I di ffer wi t h t hem on i s how you go about
doi ng i t ri ght , because I don’t feel t hat you can i sol at e
yoursel f and say you don’t want t o i nt eract wi t h t he W orl d
Bank or so and so, or you can’t t rade and so on, ri ght .
I
t hi nk t hat ’s t he part t hat I woul d di ffer on.
M N: Yes.
The ANC was known, or used t o be known as t he
part y for al l nat i ons, t here’s Afri can m eani ng al l t hose who
are Afri cans, i ncl udi ng, I m ean i t was an non -raci al t hi ng.
But now t here are, t hese grum bl es or voi ces, opi ni ons, t hat
are sayi ng t hat t h e ANC i s si del i ni ng t he t wo ot her Afri can
55
races, or bl ack races, as we know t hem , t he Indi ans and t he
C ol oured peopl e. W hat ’s your opi ni on on t hat ?
YM : J a, you know, t hat ’s a di scourse t hat has gone on t hrough
t he hi st ory of t he ANC . You know when S obukw e l eft t he
ANC , ri ght , m ay not be around t hat speci fi c i ssue, ri ght ,
but i t was al so a quest i on of whet her Afri cans m ust go i t
al one or t o what ex t ent m ust t hey pl ay a dom i nat i ng rol e,
you know, and I t hi nk t he di fference was t hat t here were
peopl e who l ef t and form ed t he P AC , who act ual l y hel d a
m uch m ore Afri cani st posi t i on. Now and I t hi nk t hat , and
even aft er t hat , you know we’ve had, you know st ruggl es,
not , t here was R obert Drescher anot her group i n t he si x t i es.
There were t hese di scourses, t hese deb at es, t hese fract i ons,
t hese breakaways, i t ’s cal l ed A Gang of Ei ght . You know,
i f you go and read t he hi st ory books, what I say i t ’s al l
t here, you know i n t he si x t i es.
S o for m e, i t ’s probabl y,
you know I don’t want t o di sappoi nt , but I’m t aki ng a
phi l osophi cal vi ew, because t hat ’s, you know I have, I’m
sort of now i n m y fi ft i es, I have t hi s, you know, al l t hese
ex peri ences, so t hese debat es wi l l com e up. You know, i n
t went y years t i m e, t hey wi l l t ake a di fferent form , ri ght .
M N: W hat ’s your opi ni on?
D o you feel t hat t he Indi an peopl e
are bei ng si del i ned as wel l as C ol oured peopl e, by t he
ANC ?
YM : J a, wel l I’m not sure. You see I t hi nk t hat t he probl em i s
not so m uch a raci al i ssue, ri ght .
W hat I do feel i s t hat ,
what i s, what and i t rel at es t o m y ear l i er quest i on, ri ght ,
t hat what we need i s t hat we need peopl e who have a
capaci t y t o i m pl em ent . The poi nt i s t hat , one of t he
di ffi cul t i es I had wi t h t he UDF, one t hi ng we succeeded
was t hat we m ade; we were very art i cul at e. W e coul d si t i n
m eet i ngs, we coul d chal l enge anybody.
But , t hat i s why
and I say I had t hat di ffi cul t i es i s t hat , when you sai d t o us,
56
run t he count ry or do som et hi ng.
ri ght .
P ut i n a wat er syst em ,
I t hi nk t hat i s t he probl em , ri ght .
S o I t hi nk what
I’m concerned about i s t hat t he poi nt i s t hat , because of
educat i onal l evel s, ri ght , not j ust i n C ol oured, I t hi nk even
som e whi t e peopl e, where you want t o i m pl em ent t hi ngs,
you need t echni cal ski l l s. You’ve got t o recogni se t hat for
hi st ori cal reasons, t here are cert ai n peopl e wi t h t hose
ski l l s. If t hey are goi ng t o occupy cert ai n posi t i ons or t hey
j ust have been ski l l ed, as a acci dent of hi st ory, not because
of anyt hi ng el se, you know, because t o acqui re t hat l evel of
t echni cal ex pert i se, ski l l and ex peri ence, i t t akes t i m e,
t here’s no short cut s, unfort unat el y, t here’s no qui ck fi x es.
I’m sayi ng t he poi nt i s t hat , i f you don’t ut i l i se t hat
resource, ri ght , t he poi nt i s t hat , t he count ry i s sufferi ng
and t he poorer peopl e are sufferi ng as a consequence of
t hat . That ’s m y concern. S o I’m l ess concerned about who
hol ds pol i t i cal offi ce and t he fact t hat t hey’re not bei ng,
you know t hat .
I m ean t hi s i ssue, you know, of sort of
pol i t i cal posi t i ons real l y, i s not som et hi ng t hat I’m t oo
concerned about .
M N: Is t he ANC st i l l your hom e?
YM : J a, I m ean, i t ’s st i l l m y hom e because I don’t t hi nk t here’s
a, you know, I m ay have a l ot of di fferences wi t h t he ANC ,
but agai n i t ’s not som et hi ng t hat ’s new, even when I was i n
t he
underground,
I
never
agreed,
ri ght .
Nei t her
everybody i n t he ANC agree wi t h everybody el se.
di d
S o t he
ANC I know, ri ght , i s not an ANC , you know t hat asks you
t o put on bl i nkers.
There i s no l i ne t hat can com e ri ght .
There i s no person i n t he ANC , whet her i t ’s Mandel a or
Mbeki who has t he m onopol y over t he t rut h.
S o m y, I’m
st i l l part of t he ANC , whi ch i s an ANC I m ust be l oyal t o
and support , but whi ch I m ust be quest i oni ng about .
57
M N: There are al so opi ni ons or rum ours wi t h t he i ncom i ng or
t he em braci ng of t he ANC of t he R aj bansi 's or t he Mi nori t y
Front t hat t he ot her Indi an peopl e who real l y fought , who
were i n t he NIC , who were m ore al i gned t o t he ANC , are
now feel i ng t hat t hey been rej ect ed, or t hough t hey are not
uncom fort abl e wi t h t hat , and t here i s t al k of t he revi val of
t he NIC . W hat ’s your opi ni on?
YM : W el l , l ook t hat debat e i s an open one.
I t hi nk
chai rm an of t he C hat swort h ANC has cal l ed for t hat .
t he
To
say, you know, i t ’s agai n, t he poi nt i s t hat i f you, for m e,
you know I’m sort of out of t he pol i t i cal envi ronm ent ,
ri ght . I’m knowl edgeabl e, but I’m not an act i vi st , i n t hat
sense. I don’t operat e i n t he pol i t i cal t errai n.
S o I t hi nk
what , t he poi nt i s t hat what , t he quest i on t hat ’s been asked
and you know I don’t m i nd sort of som e poi nt , m aybe I
need t o go and see, El i has been aski ng t o speak t o, I m ust
go and t al k t o her.
successful
in
But t he i ssue i s, are you, i s t he ANC
m obi l i si ng
t hat
sect or
of
t he
Indi an
com m uni t y.
M N: C an we pause t here.
M AC HINE S W ITC HED OFF
ON R ES UMP TION
M N: W el com e back. W e were t al ki ng about t hat probl em , I was
t el l i ng you ab out , t he opi ni on. That sai d t hat peopl e were
havi ng probl em s wi t h t he ANC em braci ng t he Mi nori t y
Front wi t h t he R aj bansi s; t he peopl e who are vi ewed as
col l aborat ors, whi l e som e m em bers of t he ANC were of
Indi an ori gi n.
W ho t hen, t o such an ex t ent , t hen now
t here’s t al k of t he revi val of t he NIC and I was aski ng your
opi ni on, and wi l l you ex pl ai n t hat when you cont i nue
pl ease.
YM : Yes, okay. The fi rst t hi ng i s t hat , I t hi nk t hat t he debat e i n
m y vi ew, i s an open one, ri ght , and I t hi nk i t ’s an
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i m port ant one.
It has t o cont i nue.
I t hi nk t he fi rst poi nt
t hat I’m m aki ng i s t hat , you know, I’m not as, wel l I’m not
act i vel y real l y, not even as, i n t he pol i t i cal sphere any
l onger, so i n t hat sense, you know, I can’t t al k wi t h t he
aut hori t y, i n a sense whi ch I woul d have been abl e t o, had I
been m ore i n t ouch wi t h what was happeni ng i n t he
pol i t i cal dynam i c. However, I t hi nk t hat t he poi nt t hat are
rai sed, ri ght , I t hi nk t hat had been al l uded or t o t he
chai rm an of t he ANC branch of t he ANC , you know t he
ANC br anch i n C hat swort h, ri ght , where he was aski ng,
ri ght .
fol l ows.
I t hi nk and I underst and t he argum ent .
It ’s as
One, you’ve got an al l i ance wi t h t he Mi nori t y
Front ; whi ch i s a ki nd of; whi ch m obi l i ses i n t he Indi an
com m uni t y, I’m not sure what i t ’s C onst i t ut i on says, and
t he ANC ’s very com fort abl e wi t h t hat . Yet , i t does not
want an Indi an C ongress, wel l t he Nat al Indi an C ongress t o
be revi ved i n som e way.
I t hi nk t hey fi nd t hat t here i s a
cont radi ct i on t here, t he behavi our, ri ght . The poi nt i s, i s i t
not bet t er, and t hat i s t he quest i on t hat I’m posi ng, i s t o
have som ebody wi t h whom t he ANC has had, i n t he past , a
pri nci pl e al l i ance, where you’ve got peopl e, who’ve not
been, l i ke t he Bant ust ans, who don’t have t hat ki nd of
col l aborat i oni st hi st ory, ri gh t , and credi bi l i t y. The poi nt i s
t hat , i f t he st rat egy, you see - you see, for m e I t hi nk
you’ve got t o st art off by sayi ng, okay, we t ri ed i t and sai d
okay, t he NIC st opped funct i oni ng, what ever, i n ‘92 or
what ever ‘93, som ewhere around t here, ri ght .
l et ’s form ANC branches i n t hose areas.
W e sai d,
Because t he
probl em i s, i t t akes decades, you see, t o unravel t he sort of
m achi nat i ons of apart hei d.
You’ve got Group Areas, now
peopl e are t here, t hey’ve got soci al com m uni t i es, so your
C hat swort h, and your P hoeni x ’s are goi ng t o be t here,
ri ght . Over a peri od of t i m e, you know, t he col our of your
59
nei ghbourhood wi l l change.
I m ean, I now l i ve i n Durban
Nort h, you know, but m ost of m y nei ghbours are whi t e.
I
t hi nk when I m oved i n t here, I was t he onl y bl ac k, now
t here’s probabl y hal f a doz en fam i l i es. Now i n t he nex t t en
years, anot her hal f a doz en, but t he charact er wi l l change,
but i t ’s a, you can’t force peopl e t o sel l t hei r houses and
say t hat ’s agai n al so, t hat ’s not how soci et i es evol ve. S o
what happ ened, so I t hi nk what happened i s t hat t hat
com m uni t y i s goi ng t o be t here.
Al so t he quest i on i s
l i nked t o t he fact i s t hat , t he ANC i s get t i ng suffi ci ent
support , you know from t he Indi an com m uni t y.
rem ai ns a ki nd of probl em .
Now i t
But for m e agai n, I ’m m ore
now l i ke a pol i t i cal observer, ri ght .
But i f you t ake t he
com m ent by But hel ez i , t hat t he Indi an peopl e are very
i ndust ri ous, t hey di d t hi s, t hey di d t hat . Even i f he sort of
wax ed a bi t m ore, ri ght t han he shoul d have, but he’s a
shrewd pol i t i ci a n. Because what I can say t o you i s, a l ot
of peopl e are goi ng t o say, but l ook t hat m an recogni ses
t hat we work hard, t hat t hi s t hi ng and you know, m aybe i t ’s
bet t er t o support
hi m .
The probl em wi t h t he ANC
l eadershi p i s t hat , you know t here’s a resi st ance, because
you m ust rem em ber t hat t he one t hi ng we di d, whi ch I al so
di dn’t cover was al l t hat i n t he ‘84 peri od, we had al l t hese
cam pai gns agai nst t he ant i - S AIC . W e l i t t ered t he st reet s,
but t he poi nt i s we succeeded, because you had such l ow
pol l s you know i n t hat peri od.
Now a l ot of t hose peopl e
around, we t ol d t hem t hese guys are col l aborat ors, but t hey
know from t hei r own
ex peri ences t hat t hey were corrupt
peopl e, you know. They had but cheri es or what ever, from
t hat .
Now for m e, i t ’s real l y t o say, i f you want t o have
support , popul ar support as t he ANC , am ongst al l sect ors,
ri ght .
W hat i s t he best st rat egy for organi si ng t hat ?
If i t
m eans t hat you act ual l y have t o l ook at a Indi an C ongress,
60
i t m i ght not have t o be t he
Indi an
C ongress,
but
som e
ki nd of organi sat i on or form at i on, t hat i s goi ng t o be abl e
t o reach out t o t hos e peopl e, but t hat i s account abl e t o t he
ANC , I t hi nk because t hat i s what t hey are t al ki ng about ,
because t hey are not t al ki ng about a st ruct ure whi ch has no
rel at i onshi p and no account abl e, ul t i m at el y t o t he ANC .
There’s a quest i on of m ore, how you work on t he ground i n
t erm s of m obi l i si ng.
I t hi nk, t hat ’s for m e, and I t hi nk
t here’s m eri t i n l ooki ng at t hat i ssue, anal ysi ng i t , debat i ng
i t and t aki ng som e deci si ons ar ound i t .
M N: Now, t hank you for t hat . If I m ay ask, what ’s your opi ni on,
now, agai n weari ng your ANC cap, even t hough you’re no
l onger act i ve, what ’s your opi ni on on t he Governm ent ’s
st ance on HIV/ Ai ds?
YM : W el l , I’m very cri t i cal of t hat .
I t hi nk t hat , i f t here’s
anyt hi ng t hat ’s goi ng t o resul t i n t he undoi ng of t he ANC ,
t hat i s goi ng t o be i t .
com m ent s
I’m very unhappy wi t h t he ki nd of
m ade by t he Mi ni st er of Heal t h.
You know, I
t hi nk t he i ssue i s t hat I m ean, I know enough about t he
di sease.
I don’ t t hi nk i t ’s good enough t o say t hat you
proceed on t he assum pt i on t hat HIV causes Ai ds, because
t he probl em i s, once you say t hat , i t l eaves doubt s i n
peopl e’s m i nds, as t o whet her i t causes Ai ds. If you accept
t he assum pt i on, t hen you shoul d st op sayi ng t hat . I m ean,
every t i m e Essop P ahad says t hat I j ust say, you know, i f I
m eet hi m one day, I’m goi ng t o t el l hi m , but t he poi nt i s
t hat I t hi nk t hat for m e, you know, what
worri es m e m ost
about our fut ure, i s t he fact t hat we're not t ackl i ng a
pandem i c . You know i t ’s l i ke t he bl ack pl ague i n t he 14t h
cent ury i n Europe. It ’s worse t han t hat , i n fact . Because i t
i s act ual l y affect i ng your abl e -bodi ed peopl e.
t wo l evel s.
Now i t ’s at
The one l evel i s you know t hat , you have t o
have t he Governm ent and t he ANC has t o gi ve l eadershi p
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on t he i ssue, ri ght .
I’m worri ed t hat t hey’re goi ng al ong
t he ri ght di rect i on.
S o what I’m sayi ng i s not di fferent ,
Madi ba i s sayi ng a si m i l ar t hi ng, you know i n hi s own
m i nd, because he’s worri ed, you know.
I m ean, i t ’s no t
ni ce when you go t o Barcel ona and Graca, t he form er
presi dent ’s wi fe get s a st andi ng ovat i on and t he Mi ni st er of
Heal t h has l eft , you know when she’s speaki ng. You know
t here’s som et hi ng not ri ght about t he way t hat pol i cy i s
bei ng handl ed. S o i f i t ’s t he one t opi c on whi ch I’m very
cri t i cal of Governm ent , i t ’s t hat i ssue.
t here’s m uch m ore t hat we can do, ri ght .
I j ust feel t hat
You know, i t ’s
every l evel . I m ean I don’t want t o st op at robot s, when I
know t here’s enough m oney for t he st reet ki ds t o b e l ooked
aft er.
I don’t want t o gi ve t hem m oney, because I don’t
know whet her t here’s a vagrant st andi ng i n t he background,
who’s get t i ng t he m oney. I al so don’t want t o, but we’re a
count ry wi t h resources, wi t h peopl e and we can t ackl e t hi s
probl em , ri g ht , so t hat I t hi nk t hat i n short , I’m fai rl y open
on t hat i ssue, cri t i cal , so I don’t know whet her you have a
di fferent vi ew, but t hat ’s m i ne.
M N: Looki ng back at your l i fe i n general , what i s t hat you can
poi nt out and say, "W hoa, i f gi ven a second chanc e, I’l l do
di fferent l y." S om et hi ng t hat you feel you’ve done wrong.
YM : Okay.
Look, t he one t hi ng t hat I’ve l earnt , you know i s
when you’re young, you have m aybe, a good IQ, as you
grow ol der, you real i se t here’s som et hi ng cal l ed, now t hey
cal l i t em ot i o nal i nt el l i gence. W hi l e I real i se, i n m y
i nt eract i ons now wi t h peopl e, you know t hese days I’m
worki ng a l ot wi t h heal t h professi onal s or t hese professors
at t he m edi cal school and t hey m ust al l be havi ng sort of
hi gh IQ’s, but t hei r em ot i onal quot i ent s ar e so l ow, you
know agai n I’m put t i ng i t on t ape, but anyway - l aughs - I
needed t o be careful , but anyway, but m y fi nal probl em i s,
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t hat you fi nd academ i c envi ronm ent s, ri ght , and I suppose
i ncl udi ng t hi s one, and you’ve peopl e and t hey’re al ways
fi ght i ng wi t h each ot her.
I don’t know for som e reason, I
don't whet her you t wo are academ i cs but you know I found
t hat i n m y ex peri ence, you know, t hat t hey have l i t t l e t o
do. S o i t ’s t he one t hi ng t hat I woul d do di fferent l y and
what probabl y t he ex peri ence has brought i n m y m i nd, i s
t hat you can be hundred percent correct about som et hi ng,
ri ght , i f you don’t read t he si t uat i on, you don’t underst and
how t hat person i s em ot i onal l y goi ng t o react t o you.
I
m ean t here are hundreds of si t uat i ons, where t oday, i f I h ad
t o go back, I woul dn’t change t he vi ews t hat I had, I t hi nk
t hey were probabl y were correct , but I woul d defi ni t el y,
you know, do t hi ngs di fferent l y.
I woul d m edi at e t he
si t uat i ons, I woul d i nt eract wi t h peopl e di fferent l y.
I'l l
keep qui et and shut up and t ry t o i nt roduce t hi ngs m uch
m ore subt l y. I m ean I was l i ke a bul l i n a chi na shop i n m y
younger days, and I t hi nk I fai l ed as a resul t , because
peopl e j ust cl osed t he doors, you know, t hey becam e
equal l y em ot i onal and we ended up sweari ng past each
ot her, you know, I t hi nk t hat ’s t he one, I t hi nk l esson t hat
m y l i fe ex peri ences have t aught m e.
M N: W hat does Mr Yunus Moham m ed do i n hi s l ei sure t i m e?
W hat do you read?
YM : W el l , what do I read? You know, I suppose I read a whol e
sort of cross -sect i on of t hi ngs, ri ght .
I t ry t o - t o t ry and
get a bal ance of sort of non -fi ct i onal st uff and fi ct i onal ,
ri ght , and al so, you know so, I read, you know and t hen I’l l
have t he book on t he hi st ory of t he UDF, you know whi ch
cam e out recent l y or R aym ond S ut t ner’s bo ok on hi s pri son
ex peri ences and so on.
On t he ot her hand, on sort of
fi ct i onal l i t erat ure, I suppose I’d read Le C arre, you know
on The C onst ant Gardener, on what i s happeni ng i n Afri ca,
63
but al so hi s own sort of sl ant on what ever t he Ai ds i ssue i s
rel at e d. But I woul d t ry t o read, and t hen what I fi nd, l ast
week I was i n London, but what I’m fi ndi ng fasci nat i ng,
you know, and agai n i t ’s j ust a com pari son, because you
have, you know agai n, you don’t have t o be raci st , but you
cast i t i n a cert ai n way. No w t he book I bought whi ch I’m
current l y readi ng, ri ght and Vi no wi l l know, but t here’s a
young l awyer, she’s a fri end of m i ne, she’s a j udge’s
[ daught er] , she got m arri ed recent l y but she had a very
t radi t i onal Indi an weddi ng, and because I’m cl ose t o t he
fam i l y, I spent t he day, but t here was a book by anot her
sort of young Indi an gi rl l i vi ng i n Bri t ai n and i t ’s j ust
descri bi ng and I’m t ryi ng t o underst and.
al so,
t here’s
anot her,
generat i on i ssue.
i t ’s
al so
You see for m e
becom i ng
a
ki nd
of
J am es Bond t h at we wat ched, was S ean
C onnery and t hese ot her guys, now you’ve got t hi s Tri pl e
X, so I t hi nk what fasci nat es m e i s not j ust , i t ’s younger
peopl e l i ke you, i t doesn’t m at t er what race you are, but
t here are di fferent l i fe ex peri ences.
A hi ppi e ex peri ence
was our ex peri ence you know, so why i s J am es Bond, he
doesn’t have any m art i ni s, he’s got m uch m ore m uscl es and
he’s got hi gher fi ri ng power, but i t ’s al l t hose ki nd of
t hi ngs, so I woul d read t hose ki nd of t hi ngs, and al so on
t echnol ogy, we’ve done fi ct i onal .
t echnol ogy t rends.
W hat i s happeni ng on
S o i t ’s l i ke t hi s guy W ol fgang P ul ker,
whi ch i s j ust , where he wri t es on what he t hi nks, t hat what
woul d 2020 be l i ke.
M N: W hat ’s your favouri t e m usi ci an or ki nd of m usi c?
Your
ol d -t i m e and your current f avouri t e m usi c, m usi ci an?
YM : J a, wel l l ook agai n, I l i ke sort of di fferent ki nds of m usi c.
S o I woul d agree wi t h Ti m Modi se, because I’m si t t i ng
t here and I was l i st eni ng now and I’m heari ng Manenberg,
you know, whi ch i s a favouri t e Abdul l ah Ebrahi m song ,
64
ri ght .
And t hey were t al ki ng l i ke when you say, i n t hi s
program m es, sorry t hi s i s j ust l at est on m y m i nd. But you
know you get t hi s, and Ti m was sayi ng, wel l som e guy who
phoned i n and - you’re sayi ng we’re runni ng t i ght on t i m e
- J ust t o say t hat on j az z , but I woul dn’t l i ke t hat heavy,
i nt el l ect ual ki nd of j az z , i t ’s l i ke you know, t he l i ght er
j az z , or l i ght cl assi cal but I woul d l i st en t o cl assi cal m usi c
and I l i ke a l ot of Indi an m usi c, as wel l .
M N: Thank you very m uch for your t i m e.
INTER VIEW ENDS
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