Interview with Leola Davis Williams
June 28, 1994
Transcript of an Interview about Life in the Jim Crow South
Albany (Ga.)
Interviewer: Charles Houston
ID: btvct01008
Interview N umber: 58
SUGGESTED CITATION
Interview with Leola Davis Williams (btvct01008), interviewed by Charles Houston, Albany (Ga.), June 28,
1994, Behind the Veil: Documenting African-American Life in the Jim Crow South Digital Collection, John
Hope Franklin Research Center, Duke University Libraries.
Behind the Veil: Documenting African-American Life in the Jim Crow South
An oral history project to record and preserve the living memory of African American
life during the age of legal segregation in the American South, from the 1890s to the
1950s.
ORIGINAL PROJECT
COLLECTION LOCATION & RESEARCH ASSISTANCE
Center for Documentary Studies at Duke
University (1993-1995) John Hope Franklin Research Center for African and African
American History and Culture
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Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life
in the Jim Crow South
Interview
with
LEOLA DAVIS WILLIAMS
(DOB 12/10/19)
Albany, Georgia
June 28, 1994
Charles H. Houston, Jr.
Interviewer
Houston:
Could we start by having you state your name and your
date of birth, and where you were born, please?
Williams: My name is Leola Davis Williams and I was born in
Baker County.
Houston:
And when were you born?
Williams: When?
Houston:
The twelfth, tenth, 1919.
Williams: Okay.
So December 10, 1919.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
I forgot to mention that I'll be taking notes as you
Williams talk.
I mean, in addition to the recording, I'll be taking
notes.
And I'll be taking notes to help keep me focused on what
you're talking about.
Okay?
2
Because it helps me learn, as well.
So I hope that's not distracting.
little bit about your parents?
Could you talk a
You were born in Baker County.
Were your parents from Baker County?
Williams: M-hm.
My mother.
We all was born in Baker County.
We never have left Baker County.
Houston:
Your father too?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
So as you grew up, you had lots of relatives
around, both on your mother and your father's side.
Williams: Yeah.
Houston:
There was fourteen of us.
Fourteen children?
Your parents had fourteen
children?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And which number were you?
Williams -
Williams: I was ... wait.
Houston:
I believe I was the fifth one.
You were the fifth one?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
So as you were growing up, you got to do a lot of
things for the younger kids in the household.
Williams: Yeah.
Houston:
So what did your parents do?
I mean, where in Baker
County were they living when you were born?
Were you living in
a town or in the countryside?
Williams: No.
Houston:
Okay.
I been in the country all the while.
And what did your dad do in the countryside?
Williams: Farm.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: No.
And did he own his own farm?
Half-sharecropped.
3
Williams -
Houston:
Okay.
And you said he half-sharecropped.
4
So that
means he farmed for half of the crop?
Williams: He got half and the company, Ichaway -- he was farming
for Ichaway, and they got half.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: Whatever.
Houston:
Okay.
So were you living on Ichaway?
Williams: Yeah.
Houston:
You were living on Ichaway Plantation at the time?
Williams: M-hm.
That's all I remember we lived until later
years.
Houston:
Okay.
So you were born there and you lived there
until much later.
away.
Williams: M-hm.
I mean, you were much older when you moved
Williams -
Houston:
Were there many other people living nearby?
Williams: Not really.
Where we lived, we called it the Old
George House, the Old Big George House.
And peoples was living
maybe miles away but nobody just didn't live right around.
Houston:
Okay.
But your family actually lived in something
called the Old Big George House?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
Was that a special house in some way?
Williams: That was just, I guess, the name of what they called
it.
It wasn't no just special, it wasn't no really just real
good house, you know.
Just old big house.
Room on each side
and a big hall down there.
Houston:
So it had one room on each side?
Williams: Oh, more than one room.
Houston:
Okay.
But rooms on each side and a middle hallway.
5
Williams Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Do you remember how many rooms?
Williams: It was about four rooms.
Houston:
So two on each side, two rooms on each side and a
middle hallway.
Williams: ... kitchen.
Houston:
So would you say there were like three bedrooms and a
kitchen and then a middle hallway?
Williams: Yeah, something like that.
Houston:
Okay.
And what kinds of crops did your dad raise?
Williams: Oh, cotton, corn, peanuts, velvet beans, cane, sweet
potatoes, hogs, cows.
Houston:
Okay.
Were all of these things cash crops or were
some of these things things that you raised for yourself, that
your dad raised for the family?
6
Williams -
7
Williams: Something like, well the corn and cotton and peanuts,
they would be ... all that was half.
But the hogs and the cow,
well, he just kept two or three milk cows, you know.
Sweet
potatoes and cane, that was his.
Houston:
And the cane?
Williams: M-hm.
So it made us have, you know, our own meat,
syrup and sweet potatoes, the biggest of what we ate.
Houston:
Okay.
And anything else that you needed, you bought
from the store?
Williams: M-hm.
Well, something like meal or corn, well, see we
would share corn and shuck it, shuck and shed it and take it to
the mill.
It was a mill ground.
And they didn't mostly have
nothing to buy but something like flour, grits and coffee and
rice, stuff like that.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: Because he raised his meat.
Houston:
And where did you buy the things, the things like
flour, grits and coffee and so on?
Williams -
Williams: Newton.
Houston:
8
Up in Newton.
So now did you buy the things at a plantation store or
in the town store?
Williams: In the town store.
Houston:
Okay.
like the 1920s.
And so you're actually now thinking back to
This is back in say the 1920s, when you were a
little girl, say around ten years old?
Williams: Mmm, I probably was a little older than that.
Houston:
Or this is all of your girlhood.
Williams: See, I was born 1919.
Houston:
How old were you when you left your parents?
When
your parents left Ichaway?
Williams: Well, I was done married.
Houston:
I done married.
So you actually grew up at Ichaway.
You never left.
Williams -
9
Williams: No.
Houston:
Okay.
Until you got married.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
And at what age was that?
Or what year was
that?
Williams: I married, I think, when I was about 18.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: I still halfway lived on Ichaway because the man I
married, he was on Ichaway too.
Houston:
Okay.
So you got married about 1937, age 18.
You
were born in 1919.
Williams: '37.
Houston:
around.
Okay.
Because my oldest child was born in '38.
Now you said there were not too many neighbors
How close were your nearest neighbors, would you say?
I mean, could you see their farms from where you lived?
Williams -
10
Williams: No, because we had everything all around and we had to
walk to school.
But you couldn't see no neighbors until you go
visit them, you know.
Houston:
Okay.
How many acres would you say your dad farmed?
Williams: Oh, Lord.
I don't know but he had big, big farms.
I
can remember when he was running about a seven horse farm, you
know a seven horse farm.
Houston:
Okay.
And did he do that all by himself?
Williams: Uh-uh [no].
The children, well, when they growed up,
the boys, and my oldest sister, they plowed.
Houston:
And how many boys were there?
Williams: It was six boys.
Houston:
Okay.
And one girl.
So six boys and one girl plowed.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And your dad plowed.
Did your mom?
Williams -
11
Williams: I never ... Well, he plowed a little but he'd get them
started and he would leave.
Houston:
And when he left, where would he go?
Williams: [laughing]
That's what we didn't know.
He'd just go
and you know, I don't reckon it would be far because he was
walking.
Houston:
Okay.
Did he ever ... I mean he would just go and you
wouldn't know where he was but he'd come back when it was time
to stop working.
Williams: He'd come back for dinner, check the plows and things.
Houston:
Did your dad hunt at all?
Williams: He hunted at night sometimes.
Houston:
Okay.
And what kind of hunting did he do?
know?
Williams: Like possum hunting, and coon.
Houston:
So he would have hunted with a shotgun?
Do you
Williams -
12
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And with dogs?
Williams: M-hm.
Well, no, he didn't have no dogs.
Houston:
And if he had a seven horse farm, that means
Okay.
you had ... I mean each of your brothers and your older sister
who plowed would have had a mule or a horse to pull the plow.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And were those kept on your farm as well?
I mean you
had a barn on your farm?
Williams: M-hm.
A big old barn that he would keep them in.
Houston:
And that's where you kept all the equipment.
Okay.
Williams: M-hm.
And I can remember Ichaway had some big old --
we called them iron gray mules, you know, and my daddy kept them
butterball fat.
he did us.
He
them.
I said he give them more than
Williams Houston:
13
He took really good care of those mules, huh?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
How did he do that?
How did he keep them so
butterball fat?
Williams: Well, like feed them with hay, like, you know, when
the peanuts -- when you pick the peanuts, you pick the peanuts
and bale the hay.
Houston:
Hay, peanuts and corn.
Okay.
Williams: Then when it come time to gather that stuff, see we
all had to work.
Like I said them velvet beans, he'd plant them
velvet beans and corn.
Mostly they would choke that corn down
and oooh, I hated to pick velvet beans.
you, just eat you.
Them things would sting
But I seen him haul loads and loads and
loads.
Houston:
So you say the velvet beans, the beans and the corn
were planted together in the same field
Williams: M-hm.
Williams Houston:
14
And that the bean stalks would wrap around the corn
stalks and would choke the corn down
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
so the corn wouldn't get very big?
Williams: It would get big.
It'll get big.
We pull that corn,
pull the corn, and then most of November and December, that's
when we had to pick the velvet beans.
Houston:
So did you pick the corn at a different time?
The
corn and the beans were in the same field, right?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And you said you picked the beans in November and
December?
Williams: M-hm.
And January, something like that, 'til we got
through.
Houston:
cold.
Okay.
So you'd actually pick them when it was pretty
Williams -
15
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And when did you pick the corn?
Williams: We'd pull the corn something like September, October,
something like that.
Houston:
Okay.
So you actually pulled the corn
Williams: first.
Houston:
a long time before you pulled the beans.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
And all the kids would work at harvest time.
Williams: Yes.
Houston:
Now did your dad ever get in extra help or was it just
the family?
Williams: No.
Houston:
Okay.
We had to do it.
What about other household duties?
I mean,
Williams -
16
there were six boys and one girl working in the field.
other work was there to be done around the farm?
didn't work in the field.
What
I mean, you
Well, except during harvest time.
mean you worked in the field at harvest time.
I
But you didn't
plow.
Williams: We worked all through while they were plowing.
See,
we would be on the end like picking out the peanuts, picking the
sticks out of the peanuts, and handing the
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: and handing the corn, filling up the corn dropper with
corn.
And filling up the dropper with
.
We all were
working now, but I just never did try to learn how to plow.
Houston:
Okay.
So in other words, it wasn't just at harvest
time, you worked in the field -- the other children worked in
the field all the time.
Williams: Most all the time.
Houston:
Whether it was
Williams: M-hm.
Pulling cotton.
weeds
We'd go to school until about,
Williams from two to three days out of the week.
Houston:
What was the school season?
Williams:
17
And we had to work.
When did school begin?
Well, like January until maybe May and then like
maybe September until December.
We went about, I would say, it
would be about maybe ... wait now.
I know we started in January
and went before Christmas.
Houston:
So you went before Christmas?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
But you also were working in the field a lot before
Christmas.
So when you say you went to school two or three days
a week, was that before Christmas that you went to school in the
fall?
Williams: Well, both times.
You know, school ... When school
was going on, farming and everything was kind of going on too
but he would let us go to school from two to three days out of
the week and the other days we had to work.
Houston:
Okay.
But what about in the middle of the winter, say
January to May?
Were you still working on the farm during those
Williams -
18
times?
Williams: Pulling up corn stalks.
Pulling up cotton stalks.
And piling them and burning them.
Cleaning up and getting ready
for farming.
Houston:
Okay.
So you really worked in the field year round
and year round you only were allowed ... Your dad allowed you to
go to school only two to three days a week.
Williams: That's right.
Houston:
Okay.
Now, what about the other kids?
I mean, did
they work as hard or was it kind of up to each family?
Williams: If they was big enough to work, they worked.
Houston:
Okay.
So all the kids went to school only about two
or three days a week.
Williams: M-hm.
Now the younger ones, they got a chance to go a
little bit more than we did.
Houston:
Okay.
How much younger?
thinking about no?
At what ages are you
When you say the younger ones went to
Williams -
19
school more, how much more did they go to school and up until
... from what age to what age?
Williams: Well, I would say the two youngest ones, they did
graduate.
Houston:
We didn't get near that far.
Oh.
Okay.
And how far did the school go?
Williams: How far did the school go?
Houston:
Yeah, how many grades?
Williams: Well, along in that time, tenth, you would, you know,
graduate.
Houston:
Okay.
And the two youngest actually finished the
tenth grade.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: This was just a country school.
Green Grove School.
We called it the
Williams Houston:
20
And was that on the plantation?
Williams: No, not really.
Houston:
Was it in the town?
Williams: Uh-uh [no].
Houston:
Okay.
Just out in the country.
And do you know who paid for it?
built by the plantation.
Williams: No.
It wasn't
Was it built by the county?
This was built by the county I guess.
All I can
remember, right up here, and just at the church right up there,
you all turn.
The school's there.
Right over there in that
corner.
But we had to walk from the Old George place to the
school.
And that was about two miles or more.
Houston:
Okay.
Can you describe the school for me?
physically, what did it look like?
how it looked?
I mean,
What do you remember about
Both outside and inside.
Williams: You know, it was really some old house like and they
taught in it.
It had about one building.
One big room.
But
then the grades, like first grade was over here on this side,
and the second and third, something like that.
It was about
Williams -
21
three teachers.
Houston:
Okay.
But they were altogether in this one school,
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
in this one room, there were like ten different
grades?
Williams: Well, no.
My youngest sister now, they wound up going
to school in Newton.
it was.
Houston:
But along when we were going, that's what
An old house.
Okay, so when your youngest sisters went to school
through the tenth grade, they actually went to a different ...
They went to a different school.
Williams: M-hm.
They had got a better school along in that
time.
Houston:
So do you remember how many grades there were at the
Green Grove School?
School?
How far you could go in the Green Grove
Could you go through, was it through grade seven?
Williams: You could go through eighth.
Williams -
Houston:
Okay.
22
So in this one room then, with groups of
students in different places in the room, there were probably
eight grades.
Williams: Grouped off.
Houston:
Grouped off.
Okay.
Williams: Everybody teaching and know they had to kind of ...
Like this group would be looking over there, but them teachers
would make you look direct, you know.
Houston:
Everything's going on.
Right.
Williams: But the group over here and a group over there and a
group, it just ... you know, but you had to look at your teacher
and listen as to what she was saying.
It was rough, though.
But that's the way we had to do it.
Houston:
So how many students would you say were there?
Williams: It should have maybe about forty or fifty or sixty.
Something like that.
Williams Houston:
Okay.
23
And were the students all from Ichaway or were
they from ...?
Williams: Oh, no, different.
Houston:
How far away would you say they came from?
Not the
whole county but from other plantations as well?
Williams: No other plantations, just from where ever, you know,
they was living around there in the country.
Houston:
Okay.
So, from Ichaway and the countryside and
elsewhere in the countryside.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Now when you say it was "rough" what do you mean?
Williams: Well, you know, well, it was just walking -- rainy
days, if we went, we had to walk, and it'd be cold.
an old wooden heater.
there.
And we had
That's how we heated, put the heat in
And we had to go out and get wood and stuff, which my
daddy would haul some wood sometimes.
school house.
And it would rain in the
Williams Houston:
24
Oh, so the roof leaked.
Williams: M-hm.
And we had, you know, the outdoor toilets.
The
girls had one and the boys had one.
Houston:
And what do you remember about your teachers?
remember anything about your teachers?
Do you
I mean, like where they
were from, who they were?
Williams: Well, they was from Newton.
Houston:
From the town.
So they weren't farming people.
Williams: One of my teachers living now, Leola Phipps.
Houston:
Is that right?
What's her name?
Leola?
Williams: Leola Dudley Phipps.
Man:
[inaudible]
Williams: They all was some kind of relatives like.
the only one living.
Houston:
She's about
The others been dead.
But all three of them lived in the town, you said in
Williams -
25
Newton.
Williams: M-hm.
Well, now one lived in Elmodel, back here in
Elmodel.
Miss Kunny.
Houston:
How do you spell Elmodel?
Williams: E-l-m-o-d-e-l.
Wait now.
Elmodel.
E-l-m-o-d-e-l,
Elmodel, Georgia.
Houston:
And you said, Miss Connie
Williams: She was from Elmodel.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: M-hm.
And was Elmodel a farming community?
It was a little old, well, we ...
It was a
store there, a grocery store, and that was our little town.
What we thought, you know.
Houston:
So it was the closest town to where you lived?
Williams: Closer than Newton.
Houston:
Okay.
And were the teachers married?
They weren't
Williams married to farmers then?
26
Who were the husbands of the teachers?
Williams: Well, Leola Phipps, Paul Phipps was her husband.
Houston:
Okay.
And what did he do?
Williams: He was a carpenter, worked to build houses and things.
But Miss Kunny, she weren't married.
She didn't have any
husband.
Miss Singletary, she weren't married.
Houston:
So Carl Phipps was a carpenter?
Williams: M-hm.
Paul.
Houston:
Okay.
Paul.
And Miss Singletary
Williams: She wasn't married.
Houston:
And what was the other woman's name, Miss Connie?
Williams: Kunny.
Either Singletary or Miss Kunny, they weren't
married.
Houston:
Okay.
Now, since they weren't married, do you know
whether they had come from farming families?
Or had they also
Williams grown up in the town?
by any chance?
27
Do you know what their parents had done
Do you know about their families at all?
Williams: Let's see, Miss Kunny -- I don't know whether they was
farming or not.
Houston:
Okay.
the community.
Well, they were all people who had grown up in
They were all local people.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Tell me about how things were in the family.
I mean,
what kind of responsibility did older kids have for younger
kids?
I mean, you were one of the older children.
There were
fourteen children and you were the fifth one.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
So as an older child, did you have any responsibility
for the younger ones or were your parents kind of the ones who
sort of took care of all the kids, and took care of everything
and did all the disciplining?
Did the older kids kind of act
like parents toward the younger kids?
Williams: When our mother and dad was gone, the older ones, you
Williams -
28
know, had to see after.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: They'd try to whoop us and all.
Houston:
Now where would your parents go?
were gone.
You said when they
Would they sometimes go away, like to visit
relatives or something?
Williams: He would.
He'd be gone.
My mother would be ... when
she'd leave out the field, she would go and be cooking dinner
and all.
Houston:
Okay.
So in other words, out in the field when your
dad would leave and your mother would leave the field to go cook
dinner, the older kids would be in charge?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
was like?
Okay.
Could you maybe just tell me what a typical day
I mean, from the time you got up in the morning say.
I mean, when would the family get up?
When would you go ....
and just tell me what a typical kind of day would be.
Williams Williams:
Houston:
29
Oh, the dawn of day.
Yeah.
city person.
So tell me about a typical day because I'm a
I don't know what life was like on the farm.
Stuff that you would think I should know, I probably don't know.
Williams: About sunrise or something like that, we'd be up.
Houston:
Okay.
So you'd get up and eat breakfast right away?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Your mother would have breakfast ready?
Williams: M-hm.
the field.
frost.
Houston:
She'd have breakfast ready and we'd go on to
Now them boys, I've seen them get out there in
There'd be a white frost out there in the field.
So the boys would go out first?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And I'm just curious, what would you have for
breakfast?
Williams -
30
Williams: Sometimes grits and sometimes syrup and biscuits and
ham meat, something like that.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: I just like common food.
We had plenty of that
because my daddy raised hogs and he killed them and we had a
smoke house of meat.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: And these big barrels of syrup.
Houston:
Where'd he get the syrup from?
Williams: Raised the cane.
Houston:
Oh, okay.
It was cane syrup.
Of course, of course.
Williams: He had a mill, you grind the cane.
own syrup.
And like sweet potatoes.
And he made his
I've known him to have
about six or seven banks of sweet potatoes.
Now something like
that, we had plenty of that to eat.
Houston:
Okay.
So you'd head out into the fields at the first
Williams -
31
light, at dawn, sometimes with a white frost on the ground.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And then so then what?
Williams: Knock off at twelve.
Houston:
But what would you do in the morning?
I mean, you
know, they'd go out in the fields, so they'd get the mules.
mean, just a typical day.
I
Like in the morning, what type of
work would you do in the morning?
Williams:
Well, when they catch the mules and go to the field,
well, when they start ... well, we would carry breakfast.
When
she got through with breakfast, we'd carry the breakfast to
those who are out there in the field.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: And they would stop and eat.
We'd carry water.
And
then we had to start doing our thing, like picking out peanuts
and pouring
and drop in things.
And we'd be out there
doing different things until time to knock off at twelve for
dinner.
Williams -
Houston:
Okay.
plowers do that?
And who took care of the animals?
32
Did the
The boys and your oldest sister?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And your dad?
They all cared for the animals?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
And you had a family garden too?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
In which you grew vegetables and stuff like that.
And
who took care of that?
Williams: Well, just all of us.
Houston:
Okay.
And you said whenever your parents were away,
the older kids would try to beat you if somebody misbehaved,
right?
Williams: Yes.
Williams Houston:
What would they beat you for?
Williams: Just try to make you, you know, do things, and maybe
do what they should be doing.
They'll try to make you do it,
you know.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: And I'd be knowing they supposed to do and I guess I
was a little stubborn.
Houston:
Right.
[laughs]
So you'd get in fights with them, huh?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Now what time would your mom knock off to go in the
house to cook supper?
Williams: For dinner?
Houston:
U-huh [yes].
Williams: She'd knock off about eleven.
Houston:
In the morning?
33
Williams -
34
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
Tell me please about neighborhood kids.
kids who lived nearby and playmates.
kids on nearby farms?
I mean
I mean, did you play with
Did you have time for recreation?
Did
you play games?
Williams: Never until on Sundays, Sunday evenings.
Maybe
Saturday but Saturday we always had to do our homework, like
clean yards and mop and iron.
And Sunday, when we went to
Sunday school, then that's when we would play and visit.
Houston:
So during the week, like Monday through Friday, it was
farm work only.
And then the house work was done on Saturday.
And who did the house work?
I mean, I assume there were all
kinds of things to be done around the house.
you want me to stop that?
[phone rings.]
Do
I'll stop this for a minute.
Williams: I hope I'm talking plain enough for you.
Houston:
Oh, no.
Absolutely.
very, very interesting.
It's crystal clear.
And it's
We were talking about Sunday and the
fact that that was the only day you could play.
That Saturday
you had home work to do and you also had house work like mopping
Williams -
35
and ironing.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Cleaning the yard.
Cleaning the yard.
And I was wondering how those
household chores were divided.
I mean who did what when you
were doing house work?
Williams: Well, now mostly my job was ironing.
I had to iron
for everybody.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: And most I would start on Friday evening, around about
three.
Houston:
Okay.
So you would iron from Friday evening
Williams: and Saturday morning until I finished.
Houston:
Okay.
And was that it for you then?
job.
Williams: Yes, that was mostly mine.
That was your
Williams Houston:
36
Then you were free after that to do homework.
Williams: Right.
And supper.
I would have to cook supper.
But
that ironing -- my daddy loved his starch, ironed overalls.
And
like the jumper go with it.
And I would starch them and iron
all that for him and the boys.
Houston:
You mean you starched and ironed theirs too?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
When you say "jumper", you mean the overalls that
button over the shoulder.
Williams: M-hm.
I mean, the jumper went with the overalls.
It
was a coat like but it all was there.
Houston:
Okay.
But it went over the overalls.
And so what
would the other kids do in terms of house work?
Was there a
difference between the kind of work that the boys did and the
girls did?
Williams: Well the boys, they would always, you know, like go in
the woods and get wood and get it there.
Williams Houston:
Okay.
37
For the stove?
Williams: Stove and our fire place.
Houston:
Okay.
Okay.
Williams: They would have to haul wood, you know, out of the
woods in the wagon.
Houston:
by women?
Right.
Take the mules and haul the wood.
And so all the work inside the house was done
Did the boys do any chores inside the house?
Williams: Not too much.
When they got their work done, then
they could shoot marbles and play and do whatever they wanted to
do.
Houston:
Okay.
Tell me about the work that the women did in
the house, I mean aside from the ironing.
scrubbed and they mopped.
So you said they
Somebody else do sewing, for example?
Williams: Well, my mother, she, you know, she would patch like.
Like the boys wear out their knees in overalls.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams -
38
Williams: She would patch.
Houston:
Who did the wash?
Williams: Us, the girls.
Houston:
Okay.
the washing?
And was there one day when you did that, did
Was there a particular day in the week when you
did the washing?
Williams: On Friday.
Houston:
Okay.
And you did that outside, I guess.
Williams: M-hm.
On rub boards in tin tubs.
Houston:
Did you build a fire under the water to get it
Okay.
hot?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
Then you'd scrub on wash boards.
Sunday, if you would please.
Tell me about
What was Sunday like?
typical Sunday from the time you got up.
I mean the
Williams -
39
Williams: We had to get up, go in the Sunday school, going to
church.
Sunday school.
And then when we got back from Sunday
school, that would be our little pleasure to play and visit.
Houston:
So you went to Sunday school and church?
Williams: Well, you know, sometimes just Sunday school.
then we didn't have church until once a month.
And
We'd go to
Sunday school, then come back home and visit and play.
Houston:
Okay.
But you went to Sunday school every Sunday.
Williams: Every Sunday.
Houston:
And church once a month.
or Sunday school?
Where did you go to church
Did you go to Sunday school and church in the
same place?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And where was that?
Williams: Back then, this same church you can barely see it, but
back in then it was way back there in the woods.
Williams Houston:
Okay.
40
And what's it called?
Williams: Hm?
Houston:
What's the name of it?
Williams: Green Grove.
Houston:
Green Grove, right.
Okay.
Same as the school.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
as the church?
So was Green Grove School in the same building
Was it the same building?
A different building.
Williams: Different.
Houston:
Okay.
So it was Green Grove Baptist Church?
Williams: Methodist.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: Because see the church sits way back in the woods but
the school was up here at the corner where this church is now.
Williams But this church, where it is now, it weren't there then.
Houston:
Okay.
Who taught Sunday school?
Williams: A man by the name of Mr. Calvin Wright.
Houston:
And was he a farmer?
Williams: I think he worked at wagers.
Houston:
He worked at wagers?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
What was wagers?
Williams: That was something like working by the day, getting
paid by the day.
Houston:
Oh, okay.
But he worked in the countryside?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
He worked on Ichaway?
41
Williams Williams: No, not on Ichaway.
On some of the Halls place.
Man: Those were Black, right.
Halls was Black.
Williams: No, some of the Halls was White.
But them that he
worked for, they was White.
Houston:
So he worked for a White family named Hall?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
What was their name?
John Bryant Hall.
John Bryant?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
And again, I guess, the children who attended
Sunday school and the people who attended church were like the
people who went to the regular school.
That is they were from
Ichaway as well as folks who lived out in the county.
Williams: All from around.
Houston:
So they were basically the same children you went to
school with, is that right?
42
Williams -
43
Williams: Right.
Houston:
So after church, would you stay around the church and
play with them there around the church?
Williams: No we would
Houston:
go home?
Williams: We would go home with some of the children or either
they would go home with us.
We didn't stay and play at the
church.
Houston:
Okay.
And when you'd go home with them or when they'd
come home with you, what would you do?
What kinds of things
would you play?
Williams: Like play ball and play running.
Some kind of ring
play.
Houston:
Okay.
What about toys?
you were little?
Williams: Not too many.
Did you guys have toys when
Williams Houston:
Say homemade toys, any kind of toys?
44
Would you just
kind of make things up?
Williams: We didn't have too many toys.
We had like for
Christmas, you know, they would buy a few toys.
Houston:
So what kinds of things would you get for Christmas?
Williams: Something like a doll.
And the boys would get
something like a train or a truck or something like that.
Houston:
But everybody would get something different?
Williams: M-hm.
Most of the girls got dolls.
Houston:
And boys would get things like trucks.
Okay.
Williams: Trucks and wagons and like a harp, you know, just
something like that.
Houston:
You know, speaking of a harp or music, did anybody in
the family make music?
Williams: You know, not no real good music, but they'd blow the
harp, you know.
Just blow in and be acting with it.
Williams -
Houston:
45
But nobody really played like a harmonica or a mouth
harp or anything like that?
Williams: No.
Houston:
Okay.
And you had lots of cousins and people living
nearby because your family was from Baker County.
them very often?
Did you see
Your relatives?
Williams: Just like I said, kind of on weekends.
That's the
onliest time we had time to visit or play.
Houston:
Okay.
Did any of your relatives go to Green Grove
Church?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
So what relatives went to Green Grove Church?
Williams: Well, we had two different sets of Washingtons.
we had all was kin.
And they went.
But
My cousins, they went to
school, Sunday school and to Green Grove Church.
Houston:
Okay.
So your maiden name is Davis.
[End of Tape 1,
Williams -
46
Side A]
[Begin Tape 1, Side B]
Houston:
So, you would play on Sunday afternoons when there
wasn't church and I guess your playmates or relatives would
leave before dark?
Williams: M-hm.
at night.
Houston:
And sometimes we would have, you know, church
We'd play 'til time to go back to church.
Okay.
What was the occasion for church at night?
How
often did that happen?
Williams: Once a month when the church would be in the daytime
beside.
I'm talking about beside Sunday School.
Then we'd go
to church that Sunday then go back that Sunday evening.
Houston:
Oh, okay.
So you had church once a month but you
always had it in the daytime and in the evening.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
And what would you do?
Would there be a
difference between what you did in the daytime and what you did
in the evening?
Williams -
Williams: No difference.
Houston:
47
Same kind of service.
As you got older, I mean as kids get older, they
start, you know, girls start getting interested in boys and boys
start getting interested in girls.
But it sounds like you were
so busy working that the only time that boys and girls would
have an opportunity -- I mean this is like after they're, I
don't know, 12, 13, 14 years old in there somewhere.
You know,
little boys start getting interested in little girls and so on.
But it sounds like the only time they would have to meet would
be at school.
They would see each other at school.
But that's
only two or three days a week.
Williams: At school.
Houston:
Off like on Sunday.
Sunday evening?
You mean Sunday afternoon or Sunday
evening?
Williams: Sunday, well, it wouldn't be night, you know.
evening.
You know, like if the girls took
would go out.
That's when it would be.
going like on Saturday night.
Houston:
Where would they go?
You know.
Sunday
the boys
But the boys would be
Williams -
48
Williams: They had a certain time to be back.
Houston:
Well, where would the boys go on Saturday night?
Williams: Going to see their little girls.
Houston:
Well, but how did that work?
I mean, they could go to
somebody's house and visit little girls on Saturday night?
So
when you were a little girl, did boys come and visit you on
Saturday night?
Williams: Sometimes.
Houston:
Okay.
But most on Sunday evening.
So would boys then go ... would they do other
things on Saturday night?
Could boys just kind of go out and do
what they wanted to do on Saturday nights?
Williams: Yeah.
stay out now.
But, you know, they couldn't stay out like they
They had to be back at least no later than eleven
o'clock.
They had to be home.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: And we had to be home before sundown.
Williams -
Houston:
Okay.
49
When boys did come over to visit, whether it
was Saturday night or Sunday, what did you do?
I mean, you
know, if a boy came over to see you on a Saturday night or a
Sunday, what would he do when he came to your house?
could you go for a walk?
Williams: No.
Houston:
I mean,
Would you sit on the porch?
We'd sit and talk awhile inside.
Inside rather than out.
Williams: Or we could sit on the porch, you know, if it was ...
Houston:
Okay.
Would they come over for dinner on Sunday?
Would they ever stay for dinner?
Williams: [no]
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: They didn't come that early.
Kind of like three and
four o'clock, something like that.
Houston:
So what time did you eat dinner?
Williams Williams: We'd eat dinner when we'd get back from church.
50
And
that would be around about one or two o'clock.
Houston:
again?
And then late at night, say around six, you'd eat
No?
Okay.
Williams: You know, if there were leftovers, you could eat that.
Houston:
Okay.
Now, you said your dad farmed for half shares.
And that you shopped in town.
town at the store on credit?
So did your dad buy things in
I'm wondering now about settling
up and about whether there were ever problems settling up, you
know, at harvest time.
Williams: Well, not as I know of because, you know, he never did
really let us know nothing about his business or nothing, you
know.
When he'd go to get his settlement, all he would do come
back and say what he got or what he didn't get and it'd be
borrowing money on the next year of crop.
Houston:
Who would he borrow that money from?
Ichaway?
Or from the merchant?
Williams: Ichaway, the landowner.
The landowner of
Williams -
Houston:
51
But he never told you how much profit he made or did
he tell you?
Williams: I don't remember him telling nothing.
my momma.
He didn't tell us.
Might have told
Because my daddy was kind of like
a courting man.
Houston:
Like a what?
Williams: [laughs]
Like a courting man?
He kept back, I just imagine, a lot.
But
all we knowed to do is work.
Houston:
Okay.
the store?
Okay.
Do you know if he borrowed money from
I mean, did he ever have to buy things on credit
from the store, you know, like clothes and stuff like that?
Williams: I don't think he did.
Like clothes he would buy from
some of them Howell store down there.
did ...
We didn't never go to town.
Because you know he never
He'd mostly go and do what
to be done.
Houston:
So your dad would go to town when?
Williams: On Saturdays.
Like on Saturdays?
Williams -
Houston:
52
But he didn't take the family?
Williams: Uh-uh. [no]
Houston:
Not your mother either?
Williams: Sometimes she would go.
Most times, if she wanted to
stay home and patch and get the clothes ready for the next week,
she would do that.
Houston:
Okay.
Now were all of the people who lived on
Ichaway, I mean, all the people that you saw on Ichaway, other
Black farming families?
Or were there, you know, like Whites
living there too?
Williams: It was Black and White.
Houston:
Okay.
And what were the Whites doing?
Williams: They would work the same way -- sharecropping.
Houston:
So there were White sharecroppers there too.
Williams: M-hm.
Williams -
Houston:
Were there a lot of Whites there?
53
I mean, how many
Williams: I believe it was more Blacks than it was White.
Houston:
Okay.
And did you see the little White kids?
Did you
see them?
Williams: No.
Houston:
Okay.
We didn't live nowhere near them.
So were the White farmers and the Black farmers
living in different parts of the plantation?
Williams: Yeah, because none of the Whites ...
We always lived
kind of off, kinda like, from everybody.
Houston:
Okay.
I guess because you had such a big farm.
mean, you had a big family so you had a seven horse farm.
Williams: Yeah.
Houston:
And so everybody ...
Williams: That reached out, you know, a long ways.
I
Williams Houston:
Okay.
54
Well, do you know were there any Black families
living near White families on Ichaway?
I mean, were there
situations where Black families and White families lived next to
each other, that you know of?
Williams: Not as I remember.
Houston:
So, and Black kids and White kids didn't play
together?
Williams: Oh no.
Houston:
What about the landowner?
landowner around the farm?
Did you ever see the
Did he ever come around to see how
things were going?
Williams: Well, he had like a overseer, the rider, but the big
man.
You know, he lived in Atlanta, and had a overseer that see
everything down at the ....
Houston:
And he was White?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams -
Williams: And he'd always ride the farms, you know.
55
And
whatever Daddy said he needed some more fertilizer or something
like that, you know, he could go get it.
Houston:
And what was he like?
Williams: What was he like?
Houston:
Yeah.
The overseer?
I mean, you know ... What kind of relationship
did your daddy have with him?
Williams: Oh, they had a good relation.
Because my daddy would
his eyeball out for him.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: And make them good crops.
Like if he make sixteen
loads of corn, then he'd keep eight and give him eight.
Houston:
Now, so if he made sixteen loads of corn, your dad
would keep eight and he'd give eight, not to the overseer, but
to the landowner -- or to the overseer?
Williams: To the overseer because he would be seen.
They had a
Williams barn down there.
56
All they had to do ... My daddy'd carry the
corn and unload it, you know, and come back.
They'd know where
everything was.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: If he made like twenty tons of peanuts, that went the
same way.
Houston:
Okay.
And the overseer had a big barn where he kept
everything.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
So all these goods flowed into the overseer's barn
from the various Black farms on the plantation.
Okay.
Were
there every any problems on the plantation?
Every any
disagreements that you recall?
Any violence?
Any fights?
Anything like that, ever any trouble?
Williams: Not as I'm, you know, because along then ... I reckon
the White folks just told the Blacks what to do and at that
time, they did it.
Houston:
So you don't know of any instance where a Black didn't
Williams -
57
do what he was told to do, or she was told to do?
Williams: No.
Houston:
Okay.
No instances where somebody crossed the line,
as they say, and did something they weren't, you know, that
Whites didn't like?
Williams: No, not as I remember.
Houston:
Okay.
What would happen if a Black farmer got sick?
Let's say, he had an accident, say, you know, he broke his leg
or fell off a roof, or just got sick and couldn't farm.
What
would happen?
Williams: Well, I hadn't known it to happen but I guess if it
would happen, just like if it would have happened to my daddy,
well see, the boys would have carried for our momma.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: But I never known it to happen.
Houston:
Okay.
Who were the leaders of the community?
I mean,
what would you say were the boundaries of your community?
I
Williams -
58
mean, how far ... the community included all the farming
families on Ichaway?
Did you know all of the Black farming
families on Ichaway?
Williams: No.
Houston:
I didn't know them all.
How many families would you say you knew, or your
family knew?
People at church, all those people who went to the
church you went to?
Williams: No.
Nachaway.
Green Grove.
Some of them, it was another church they called
Most Ichaway peoples went to the church at Nachaway.
It's a Methodist church.
Houston:
So would it be safe to say that all of the Black
farmers at Ichaway were Methodists, whether they went to Green
Grove or whether they went to Nachaway Church?
Williams: I wouldn't say all of them was Methodists.
Houston:
Okay.
So there was Baptists?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
But you did say that Green Grove was a
Williams -
59
Methodist church?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
community?
Who would you say were the leaders of your
I mean, who were the Black leaders that, you know,
farmers would look to?
Were there ever ... Do you ever remember
like a -- I don't know -community were?
Who would you say the leaders of the
Like the minister?
Williams: The leaders?
Houston:
Yeah.
Was the minister ... Did Black farmers ever
turn to other Blacks for advice?
how would they get buried?
buried at the church?
For example, if somebody died,
I mean, when people died, they were
At the church graveyard?
Williams: Yes, you know, if they belonged to that church.
Houston:
Okay.
And if they belonged to another church, they
would be buried at their own church graveyard.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And was there like a burial fund that people paid
Williams -
60
into?
Williams: No.
At that time, wherever the church was, if it was
on Ichaway, then they just, you know, bury for nothing because
they ...
Houston:
gave them that.
Okay.
Now, how old were you when you got married?
Williams: I should have been something like 17 or 18, something
like that.
Houston:
And how did you meet your husband?
Williams: Well, he was on Ichaway.
Houston:
Okay.
So he was a neighbor, his family was a
neighbor.
Williams: Well, he lived a good ways from us, a long ways, but,
you know, he would come there.
Houston:
So, how'd you meet him?
Williams: I can't remember when I first met him.
I don't know
whether we was at church or it might have been to a ball game or
Williams somewhere.
Houston:
61
I don't know.
At a ball game?
Williams: Could have been.
Houston:
Tell me about the ball games.
I mean, how often would
there be ball games and from how far away would people come?
What kind of ball game?
Williams: It would be Ichaway ball game and they would play most
every Sunday.
play on Sunday.
Houston:
Some Saturdays they would practice but they'd
Different teams and what not.
So they practiced on Saturday, played on Sunday
afternoon?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And this is baseball?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And they played at a field on the plantation?
Williams -
62
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Was there like a community facility or this was just a
field where they just played?
Williams: A field.
Houston:
Just on a field, okay.
And this was a regular thing
that happened?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And would they play teams from other plantations?
Or
would they just make up teams on the plantation?
Williams: Teams from other
Houston:
From other plantations?
Williams: From other places, you know.
Didn't have to be a
plantation, just like a team from Albany or a team from Leery or
Bainbridge, just, you know.
And that same ball game there
today.
Houston:
So on Sunday then, these teams from other places would
Williams -
63
come in and would people from other places come in to see their
teams play?
Would people come in from Albany and from
Bainbridge and Leery?
Williams:
Houston:
M-hm.
And they'd come in by what?
Like horse and wagon?
Williams: Well, oh, back then you mean?
Houston:
Well, I mean any time.
Williams: Well, mostly they'd walk.
Well, they weren't playing
like ... like I'm saying, like teams then.
know, play.
Houston:
They would just, you
But it mostly was in walking.
Within walking distance?
Williams: Yes.
Houston:
So when you were a little girl, say, before you got
married, people didn't come from as far away as Albany or
Bainbridge?
Williams: No, no.
Williams -
Houston:
64
That was much later.
Williams: M-hm.
That was later.
Houston:
So I mean, you got to meet some new people at
Okay.
these ball games.
I mean, you would see new people that you
didn't ordinarily see at these ball games.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Were there other functions like that?
I mean, like
county fairs or were there, you know, was there ever a county
fair?
Did you ever go to county fairs?
Williams: County fairs?
Houston:
You know, like Baker County.
Did Baker County ever
have a fair where they'd have live stock and stuff like that?
Houston:
So really, it was the ball game were you'd kind of
meet new people.
You may have met your husband at a ball game.
Williams: May have.
I don't ...
Maybe.
Williams Houston:
Okay.
Okay.
about age 17 or 18.
65
And you met him and you got married
And where did you live?
Williams: Well, I lived still on Ichaway with his mother and
daddy until we moved out.
Houston:
And how long was that?
Williams: Maybe we stayed there around two years.
Houston:
And when you moved out, where'd you go?
Williams: We moved ...
It was off Ichaway then.
Above Edmonds
there, with Charlie Burke.
Houston:
To Charlie Burke's plantation?
Williams: His farm.
Houston:
Okay.
Is it B-u-r-t?
Williams: B-u-r-k-e.
Houston:
Okay.
So your husband started working for shares on
Charlie Burke's ...
Williams -
Williams: No.
Houston:
66
He just worked by the day.
Okay.
And Charlie Burke provided a house?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Let's see, this would have been late 1930s.
Williams: Something like that.
Houston:
Yeah, if you married at 17 or 18 and you lived with
his parents two years, then that would have been around 19 ...
and you were born in 1919, that would have been around 1939.
Now, during this time, you know, this was in the 1930s, were you
aware of Black farmers losing their farms?
Not being able to
make crops because ... Were there problems with farmers not
being able to make crops and staying on plantations or staying
on farms?
Williams: Well, now, my husband had a problem of staying on
farms.
He was just somebody, you know, if they mad, he would
leave.
He would just quit work and go.
And I had to be
following him until I just got tired of that.
We'd move about
every year.
I wanted to get
And I just got fed up with that.
Williams -
67
somewhere and stay.
Houston:
What kinds of things did he get angry about?
Williams: Like money and if it rained, he wouldn't ... you know,
mostly if it rained and you couldn't plow, they always had
something else for you to do like cutting bushes and all like
that.
And he didn't like all that.
Houston:
And he'd just leave.
So he would leave before the
Williams: Before we gather and all like that.
Houston:
He'd just pick up and move.
I mean, he'd get angry
and leave immediately.
Williams: M-hm.
And go to some of his folks; they'd find
somewhere else to stay.
Houston:
I mean, when he moved, would you stay always in the
same county?
Williams: Yeah.
Houston:
It would be in the same county.
And he did that a lot, huh?
Williams -
68
Williams: Mostly.
Houston:
Did he get like a bad reputation among people?
Were
people reluctant to hire him because he had a reputation?
Williams: He could get a job.
He used to get a job but he just
would leave it if there was something about it he didn't like.
Houston:
Okay.
And did you ever settle down or were you always
moving around?
Williams: Moving around 'til I got tired and just quit him.
Houston:
You quit him?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Did you have any children?
Williams: Oh yeah.
Houston:
We had six children.
And when did you finally quit him?
Williams: In the forties, I believe, sometime in the forties.
Williams -
Houston:
69
Do you remember whether it was early or late forties?
Williams: It could have been '47.
Houston:
So after the war?
Williams: After the war?
Houston:
Yeah, after World War II.
'45, around there some time.
World War II was over in
Where were you living at the time
you quit your husband?
Williams: We was living right up -- when you all came down 200,
we was living right up there on 200.
running that.
Miss Fannie Hall was
I left and went to Camilla to my uncle and stayed
about a year and a half.
And when I came back, then I was on my
own.
Houston:
So you lived with what?
Your mother's brother?
Williams: My daddy's brother.
Houston:
You took your six kids there, to Camilla?
Williams Williams: No, I didn't take but two.
70
I left the others with my
momma.
Houston:
So you took the two youngest?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
And you said you stayed with your uncle for
about a year.
Williams: Maybe a year and a half, something like that.
Houston:
So you stayed twelve to eighteen months.
returned, you said you were on your own.
And when you
How did you support
yourself?
Williams: I got me a house and went to farming with Harrison
Hawkin.
Houston:
Who's that?
He was a friend?
Williams: Well, I knowed him for a year.
plowed.
Houston:
And my oldest son, he
We farmed with him.
So you shared a farm with Harrison Hawkins or he had a
Williams farm nearby?
71
Did you have your own farm?
Williams: No.
No.
We just worked.
My son just, you know,
plowed every day and when time to gather, we all hoed.
Just
getting paid by the day, you know.
Houston:
Okay.
So when you say it was your own farm, you
weren't farming for shares.
the land.
But your son was simply working on
And you had a place to live but you were really
working by the day.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And I'm not clear who Harrison Hawkins was.
Williams: You know, he was a landowner.
Houston:
Oh, okay.
Williams: M-hm.
So you were on Harrison Hawkins' farm?
And I guess I stayed there about two years.
And then I moved on the Miller farm.
Houston:
Okay.
He had land.
Which is also nearby.
Williams: It joined.
The land joined.
Williams -
Houston:
Okay.
And the same arrangement?
72
I mean, you were
working for Miller by the day.
Williams: M-hm.
Well, we didn't work by the day there.
We
shared with the Millers like sharecrop.
Houston:
So you were on one-half share with the Millers.
And I
assume that was better than working by the day?
Williams: It was.
Houston:
You made more?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
So it was your oldest son then who was doing
the plowing?
Williams: M-hm.
Well, then the other one had growed up.
about two sons plowing.
Houston:
Okay.
So you had two sons plowing.
Man: Miller was White or Black?
I had
Williams -
Williams: Black.
Houston:
Oh, is that right?
Harrison Miller was
Williams: Black.
Houston:
Okay.
What was Miller's first name?
Williams: Miller?
Julius.
Houston:
Were there many Black landowners around?
Julius.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
All these Hawkins.
Hawkins was Black too?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Julius Miller.
They got their little land and everything.
So how many Black families would you say in the area
owned their own land?
Williams: Ooooh, I would say ... well really, all ... But we
don't know around in here now.
But all this section around in
here is Black and they got their land.
They got all this
73
Williams -
74
Hawkins Town.
Houston:
So the name of this area is Hawkins Town?
Williams: I'm at the beginning and owned ...
Houston:
So a lot of the people who were at Green Grove
Methodist Church were landowners?
They owned their own farms?
Williams: Well, I wouldn't say member of Green Grove because
they most of them were Thankful, the Baptist church on 91.
All
of Hawkins.
Houston:
What's the name of the church?
Williams: Thankful.
Thankful Baptist Church.
Houston:
T-h-a-n-k-
Thankful?
Williams: f-u-l.
Houston:
Okay.
Thankfull Baptist Church.
So when your husband
was getting angry and walking off farms, I just assumed those
were White farms that he was walking off of.
Williams -
75
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Did he not work for Black landowners, your husband?
Williams: Well, he might have but me and him weren't together
then.
Houston:
Okay.
But when you and he were together, he only
worked for White landowners?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
So how long did you work Julius Miller?
Williams: Oh, a long time.
I moved to the Millers in '50 and I
worked there 'til about in the seventies.
sometime in that time and then ...
Well, when I moved from the
Millers, I moved right here.
Houston:
Okay.
And when was that?
Williams: When what?
Houston:
I'm sorry.
'Cause he passed
When you moved here.
Williams Williams: Oh, in '72.
Houston:
Now during this time, from the 1950s until you moved
here, you were sharecropping on the Millers' farm.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
You said you had six kids altogether and in 1950 you
had two sons who were doing the plowing.
How many sons do you
have altogether?
Williams: Well, I have in all seven sons and three daughters.
Houston:
Seven sons.
Williams: I have ten children in all.
Houston:
Okay.
So you had four more children after you moved
here?
Williams: No.
Houston:
Around to the Millers.
I'm sorry.
the Millers, in 1950.
That's what I meant.
I meant around to
76
Williams Williams: M-hm.
77
That's when my son, Judge Williams, was born in
'50.
Houston:
Okay.
So Judge Henry Williams was born.
Were there
people, I mean, during the forties, were there people leaving
this area?
Were there fewer farmers?
Some people from this
area had gone off, I presume, during the war.
Say in the early
forties, were there people going away to the war?
Williams: Well, some.
Houston:
Okay.
And during the fifties, after you moved to the
Millers' farm, was there NAACP activity in this area?
Do you
remember any NAACP activities during the forties, either during
the war or ....
Williams: Well, I can remember it was but mostly it was kind of
what you would say, kind of
Man:
[inaudible]
Williams: M-hm.
man's name.
Houston:
I remember, oh, I liked to recall this old
His used to get the newspaper.
The Crisis.
Williams -
Williams: But he would walk to Albany for news.
and pick up this paper.
78
Walk to Albany
The NAACP was going on then but they
was handling it through, you know, trying not to let the Whites
know about it.
Houston:
I can't call his name.
And would people then, I mean, once the old man got
the newspaper, would people read it and kind of talk about what
was in it but do it quietly so the White folks ....
Williams: Do it quietly, secretly like.
Because he didn't want
them to even know he was going to Albany to pick it up.
know, he would leave walking.
him.
You
He wouldn't ask nobody to take
He would leave walking.
Houston:
Do you know where he would pick it up?
Williams: Not really.
I didn't know what, you know, parts of
Albany he would pick it up at.
Houston:
Okay.
was when, now?
Did you ever people talking about this?
This was in the forties?
Williams: In the fifties like.
That's when I remember it.
This
Williams Houston:
So is that the first time
Williams: Nate Washington!
Washington.
Houston:
79
That's what he was named.
Mr. Nate
He was kind of old.
Was he a relative?
Williams: No.
Houston:
He wasn't one of the three, two Washington families
that were related?
Williams: Un-uh [no].
Houston:
Okay.
Different Washington.
So is the first recollection you have of the
NAACP from the time that you were living on the Miller farm?
Do
you remember hearing about the NAACP before that?
Williams: Well, just a little sneaky bit was kind of coming in,
long in then.
Houston:
Before you moved onto the Millers.
Williams: But they weren't talking it.
secretly like.
You know, just kind of
Williams -
Houston:
Okay.
80
So what kind of things would they talk about?
Do you remember?
When it was real secretive, do you remember
what people talked about?
Williams: Well, really, they wouldn't talk it in front of us.
There just was certain peoples that would, you know, I would say
like, well, kind of like landowners.
Kind of like I would say
Old Man Nate Washington.
Old Man Julius Miller.
Williams.
Carl Broadway and T. Kunny.
them.
And who else?
And Mr. Josh
Like
They would just, you know, get together and talk.
when it really broke out, that's when ...
it somehow or another.
But
The White got hold to
I don't know how but that's when they
went to bombing Mr. Josh Williams' house, and Carl Broadway.
Houston:
And when did that happen?
Williams: That was some time in '50.
that was probably in the sixties.
Somewhere in '50.
No,
The last of the fifties or
the sixties, one.
Houston:
When Whites found out that Blacks were joining the
NAACP, they started bombing.
They bombed Josh Williams'?
Williams: Josh Williams' house.
And Carl Broadway's house.
Williams What did they do to T. Kunny?
Houston:
Carl who?
Williams: Carl Broadway.
Houston:
Broadway?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And T. Kunny?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
C-u-n-n
Williams: K-u-n-n-y.
Houston:
They did something to him.
So this was late 1950s?
Williams: Maybe sixties.
Houston:
In '60.
Okay.
Williams: I would say that's when the NAACP did start, kind of
81
Williams -
82
getting out, you know.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: And then that's when they went to doing that damage.
Houston:
Okay.
So before that, it had been really secretive.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
I mean people ...
But it was mainly the people who
owned their own farms who were involved in it, mainly the
landowners.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Was it that people who didn't own their own farms were
not invited to join?
Williams: Well, they could have joined but, you know, they
didn't talk as much because I guess they didn't want it to get
out.
open.
But somehow or another, it got out.
And that's when all this ...
Houston:
Okay.
Then finally it got
got involved in it.
But you said that people who farmed for shares
Williams -
83
or who worked for wages on farms could have joined but that they
didn't join.
Is that right?
Williams: I believe they could have.
Houston:
But why didn't they, do you know?
Do you have any
idea why they didn't join?
Williams: Well, you know, like some peoples talk, you know,
ain't got no secrets.
Just talk, talk.
trying, I guess, keep it from them.
Houston:
And I guess they was
I don't know.
So you think the landowners may not have wanted too
many people to join?
Williams: Well, I never, you know, I didn't ... I don't know
whether they did or not but that was just along in the time I
heard about it, you know.
Houston:
Okay.
So you heard about it about the time it was
breaking out and this was in the late fifties.
Williams: Yeah.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams -
84
Man: And the way you said about talk, that meant they didn't
want to talk to people that wasn't reliable, you know.
with the
A man
responsibility of hundreds acres of land, two, three
hundred acres of land, has so much to lose while the man that is
not a landowner, well he could have hardly anything because he
had nothing to lose.
Williams: Maybe that's the way it was.
It was some kind of way
like that.
Houston:
Right.
Williams: Because they just didn't want ... I mean they wouldn't
talk with Dick, Tom and Harry, you know what I'm trying to say.
Houston:
Right.
Right.
But for the most part, Reverend
Wellesley, I mean, it sounds like the majority of the NAACP
activists, the people who were active in the organization, the
members, were landowners and yeah, maybe it was that they were
afraid that the non-landowners would not keep the secret so
well.
Or, you know, maybe it was that the non-landowners were
afraid because they were, after all, dependent for their homes
on the White landowners.
Williams -
85
Man: Yes.
Houston:
I mean, they were more vulnerable.
were a bit more independent.
The landowners
They could afford to take a few
more chances because nobody could put them out of their house.
Williams: Yeah, that's one thing.
Houston:
Perhaps.
Yeah.
That's number one.
I'm just wondering whether anybody
talked about it and whether you actually heard anything.
Whether there was any indication of why non-landowners didn't
join so much.
We can speculate about it but I was just
wondering whether anybody said anything about it.
Williams: Well, you near about covered that part because I
believe that would have been it because if, you know, if the
non-landowners would really participate and the White knowed it
and you was living their land, you would have to move if they
found out you was participating.
Houston:
They'd put you out, right.
Now what about bombings?
You said that when word got out, either in the late fifties or
early sixties, that some of the landowners were active in the
NAACP, that ... [End of Tape 1, Side B]
Williams -
86
[Begin Tape 2, Side A]
Houston:
... I mean, who was doing the bombing?
Williams: Well, see, that's what you really wouldn't know
because they wouldn't do.
for a bit]
Houston:
They'd get out ...
[tape goes blank
... for it.
Okay.
Williams: They'd be knowing about what they going to do.
You
know, I just imagine they be done discussed it that day.
And
then when night come, that's when they do their dirt.
Houston:
Okay.
What could Blacks do to protect themselves?
mean what did they do?
I
What strategies could Blacks take to
protect themselves from reprisals?
I mean, if someone was
active in the NAACP, what could he do to protect himself if word
was out that he was active?
themselves?
help them?
Did they leave?
I mean, you know, did Blacks arm
Did they call over neighbors to
I mean, what could they do?
Williams: Well, arm themselves.
All I knew was lately after
then, that's when Jose Miller got killed.
all of us got involved then.
was that now.
What year?
And then that's when
I don't know what year
Williams -
Houston:
87
Tell me about the circumstances surrounding Jose?
Williams: Josie, Jose Miller.
Houston:
Josie Miller.
circumstances.
him?
Yeah.
What happened?
Just tell me about the
Why was he killed and who killed
Just tell me about the circumstances.
Williams: Well, I guess Grace could tell you more than I could.
Houston:
Grace?
Williams: U-huh [yes].
This is his wife.
M.C. Gray, he had some of his cows.
But I know he was ...
Well, the cows just broke
out and got in the field and he never did get the cows.
And
Josie just raised the cows, just fed them along with his, and
everything.
And he kept the cows so long until the cows had
calves and I think he wound up with about maybe four or five
calves.
And in the winter, you know, if you don't just really
feed cows, they'll get poor.
And Josie took care of the cows
and fed them and kept them just so, like he did his.
he got ready, he come and wanted the cows.
Then when
And then Josie
thought by he had took care of them, maybe he should give him
one, at least give him a cow.
And from that, I think they got
Williams in an argument or something.
88
But anyway, he shot him.
Man: He wanted to pick out the best bred cow, you know, the
finest cow.
Houston:
Josie did.
Man: The White man.
Williams: The White man.
Man: Picked the best bred cows because he wanted to pick the
best looking cows.
Williams: And I think that was Josie's.
Man: The White man wanted the best looking cows.
Miller, knew that was his cow.
He, Mr.
But the White man wanted to
claim that cow for his cow.
Houston:
Okay.
So the issue was that Grace claimed Miller's
cow as his own, or cows as his own.
In other words, he had four
or five cows and some calves but he wanted to take not the ones
that were actually his but the nicest ones he could find.
those happened to be Miller's cows.
And
Williams -
89
Man: That's right.
Williams: And that was ...
Houston:
Who'd I say killed Josie?
Grace.
Williams: Un-uh [no].
That's his wife.
She didn't kill him.
Man: M.C. Gray.
Houston:
Oh, M.C. Grace!
Williams: M.C. Gray.
Houston:
M.C. Gray.
Williams: And Cal Hall.
Them was the two men together.
M.C.
Gray and Cal Hall.
Houston:
Cal?
Williams: M-hm.
do it.
Hall.
Now between the two, I know one had to
Williams Houston:
Okay.
90
Shot Miller.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And, Reverend, do you know when this was?
Williams: Can you recall what year?
Man: I know it was ... I heard his daughter said she had it
marked but by the time she ... was she coming out of school?
But you go interview Mrs. ...
Houston:
Yeah, I'm going to try to interview Mrs. Sherrod.
is Miller's daughter.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
But I'm just trying to get an idea of when this was
for the purpose of this interview.
This was around 1960?
Williams: I believe it was in '60.
Houston:
So it was after the sit-ins.
Williams: I don't know whether it was '65 or '66.
She
Williams -
Houston:
91
So it was late.
Williams: But that's when we got involved in our marching, I
believe.
Houston:
Now where did that happen?
Did that happen here in
Baker County?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
About a mile around that way.
Now this Josie Miller was related to Julius Miller,
the landowner?
Williams: She was an in-law.
Man: Josie is
Williams: Walter Miller.
Man: Walter Miller's wife.
Houston:
And that's Mrs. Sherrod's aunt.
But I thought the man who owned the cows, the man who
was killed, was Josie Miller.
Williams -
92
Williams: The man who was killed?
Houston:
Yeah, the Miller who was killed.
Williams: That was Hosey Miller was killed.
Houston:
Hosey.
Okay.
Sorry.
Hosey Miller was killed.
Okay.
You say and that was about a mile from here?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And you said people started marching in protest?
Williams: Yeah, well, by that time, Sherrod and them had set up
a time and a group and they came down and us met to Grace.
Houston:
I'm sorry.
Sherrod set up the time and place?
Williams: U-huh [yes].
Houston:
And what happened?
Williams: And we, you know, talked about it and he talked with
us and told us, you know, he let us know that we couldn't be ...
we had to be non-violent, right?
Williams -
93
Man: Right.
Williams: And it was a good time, quite a while, before I could
say I'd be non-violent.
getting it back.
I said, because anybody hit me, they
He said, "No, no.
You can't do that."
finally we got together and started marching.
in '66.
'65 we started.
So
I think that was
But '66 and '67, that's sure enough
when we did it.
Houston:
So in other words, it was the murder that kind of
sparked things off.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
There was nothing going on here in terms of civil
rights in Baker County before the murder.
Williams: That's what really started it, as it's said, let the
cat out of the water.
Man: It started openly.
longer.
Williams: Un-uh [no].
You all didn't try to hide it no
Williams -
Houston:
94
And how long was there ... I mean, describe for me the
process by which people, you know, got angry, and what happened?
I mean, Sherrod came out and he set up a time and place.
where ... Is that what happened?
So
Sherrod came out and called a
meeting, contacted people and told them there was going to be a
meeting?
Williams: Well, he came, yeah.
I don't know where.
I guess
Sherrod had heard about this, you reckon?
Man: M-hm.
And the voter registration was a part of the effort
from that point.
Registering people to vote.
Williams: Yeah.
Houston:
So part of the protest of the murder became voter
registration?
Man: After that.
Houston:
Yes.
Part of the reaction to the murder.
Man: That's right.
Williams Houston:
95
One of the things was to demonstrate publicly by
marching, is that right?
Man: M-hm.
Houston:
And the other was voter registration.
Man: That's right.
Houston:
Okay, now, where did you march to and where did you
march from?
And how soon after the killing did the marching
begin?
Williams: Right after the killing.
It didn't take long to set
it up because everybody was so upset.
Houston:
So when you say right after, how much after?
How
long?
Williams: I don't really like to know how long but it didn't
take no two or three weeks.
Houston:
We soon got together.
So it was a matter of days.
Who said "we should do something"?
And how did that happen?
How did it happen?
somebody say, you know, "we have to do something"?
Did
And who was
Williams that?
What was it they said needed to be done?
96
How did you
make the decision to start marching?
Williams: Well after Sherrod talked with us, because we didn't
know nothing, you know, but he talked with us and he let us, you
know, did our own judging whether or not we wanted to do it.
And so we was ready to do whatever.
So we just met, had
meetings and met and began, set a date to start marching.
Houston:
So where did you have the meetings?
Williams: Well, after we quit meeting to Gray's house, we met at
the church.
Houston:
house.
I'm sorry.
Tell me about the meetings at Gray's
I don't know about Gray's house.
Williams: Well, that's where we set it up at.
Houston:
So you had the first meeting at Gray's house?
Williams: M-hm.
Maybe the second, two or three.
Houston:
Now what is Gray's house?
Okay.
Williams Man: That's the man's house that was killed.
Houston:
97
Grace's house.
I thought his name was Miller.
Williams: Hosey.
But that's his wife.
Man: Grace's last name is Miller.
Houston:
Oh, I'm sorry.
At Gray's house.
Was it Gray or
Grace?
Man: Grace Miller.
Houston:
Okay, wait a minute.
I'm confused now.
Jose is the
person who was killed.
Williams: That was Hose's house.
Houston:
And what was Jose's last name?
Williams: What?
Jose's wife's name?
Grace.
Man: Grace Miller.
Houston:
What was Jose's last name, Hosey's last name?
Williams -
98
Man: Miller.
Houston:
Miller.
But the first meeting was at Gray's house?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And he was the person who tried to take the cows.
Man: He was her husband.
killed.
It was between her husband that got
The cow thing was between the White man and Miss Grace
Miller's husband.
Houston:
Okay.
So the first meeting was at Grace Miller's
house?
Man: That's right.
Houston:
Okay.
The man that got killed's house.
And who called that meeting?
that meeting come about?
I mean, how did
Did somebody call it?
Or did
everybody just go over there to give condolences?
Williams: Well, like I said, Sherrod -- he talked with us and he
had some of his friends and things.
to set it up and get started.
And he just knowed just how
And he wanted to know how many of
Williams us or was us willing to do it.
And we was willing.
99
So that's
how really we got started.
Houston:
Okay.
And so after the second meeting or so, the
first or second meeting, the meetings then moved to a different
location?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And what was that location?
Williams: Well, from there, we would meet at St. Mathis Church
on 37th and Pleasant Grove Church, both of them Baptist.
Houston:
And St. Mathis was a Black church?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And how many people came to these meetings?
Williams: Oh, it would be a good bit of them.
Houston:
All Black?
Williams: M-hm.
Williams -
Houston:
So how many would you say?
100
A hundred?
Williams: It might not would be a hundred but it would be a lot
of them.
Houston:
Fifty?
Williams: Well, something like that.
Between forty and fifty.
And every Sunday night, or every time we'd meet, you know, it
would become more and more and more.
Houston:
Okay.
And you decided that you were going to ... what
did you decide at these meetings?
Williams: We just decided to march.
Houston:
Okay.
And where did you decide to march?
Williams: From where we go from Pleasant Grove downtown.
Houston:
Downtown where?
Williams: Downtown Newton.
Williams Houston:
But where in downtown?
101
Like to the courthouse?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
So the courthouse was the destination?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And then would you just turn around and march back to
Pleasant Grove?
Williams: Back to church and we'd do that about twice a day, in
the morning and then in the evening, until they started locking
us up.
Houston:
And how long did that take?
Williams: It didn't take about a week.
Houston:
Before they started locking you up?
Williams: M-hm.
stop.
Well, see, they wanted us to stop and we didn't
They allowed you a chance to go back and don't come back.
Or either if you keep marching, you would be locked up.
they kept on until they got a bunch of us locked up.
So
Williams -
Houston:
102
So, did you march only on Sundays or was this every
day of the week that you were marching?
Williams: During the week.
Houston:
Every day during the week?
Williams: Well, yeah.
Houston:
We had it as a daily thing.
And how many people would you say were in the marches?
Williams: Oh, Lord.
I can remember one time it was about eighty
or ninety peoples.
Houston:
And what about news coverage?
news coverage?
Were there reporters there?
Williams: Reporters?
Houston:
Yeah.
Man: Cameramen.
Houston:
You know, was there
TV people, newspaper people.
Williams -
103
Williams: I don't think so, was it?
Man: It probably was.
Houston:
But you don't remember any media people?
Williams: Did they allow them in there?
Or they couldn't ho
it?
Man: They couldn't ho
it, come in.
See, if you were in the
street, they have a right to the streets too.
Houston:
I'm sorry.
There were other people in the streets
when you were marching?
Man: I meant if the newsmen wanted to come and they was in the
streets, when they come in the streets, you probably could keep
them out of a special meeting or something, but you can't keep
the news media out of the street.
Houston:
So when you were marching, did you meet any resistance
or opposition?
want you there.
I know the authorities said that they didn't
But I mean, were there hecklers?
come and call you names?
Did people
Williams -
Williams: M-hm.
104
Yeah, they would do all that.
Houston:
So were there lots of hecklers?
William:
Hm?
Houston:
Were there many hecklers?
Were there a lot of people
out saying negative things about the marchers?
Williams: Yeah, it would be a lot of them standing saying things
but see, we'd just be marching and singing.
pay them too much attention.
So we just didn't
But finally they started locking
up all them refused to turn around, you know.
They would lock
them up.
Houston:
And then what happened?
I mean, how long would you
stay in jail?
Williams: They stayed in jail about ... See, they was a week in
jail before I went in.
Because I stayed in about maybe a week
and three or four days, me and Josie.
But anyway, before we got
in jail, that's when they named ... They thought they was
scaring us out.
Saturday.
That's when they named, you know, that Bloody
They said, "if any nigger be caught downtown, they
Williams are going to be killed.
105
That's going to be a bloody Saturday."
They had up a sign saying, "Today is a bloody day."
They
thought they would back us out but we went to St. Matthew and we
prayed and we sang and then we went on down there.
But they had
peoples with axe handles, ball bats, and walking sticks.
Houston:
Now these were not policemen?
Williams: Un-uh [no].
No, the police weren't in it but they
knowed about it.
Houston:
Sure.
Williams: Peoples from Leary and all them old mean crackers what
didn't mind doing something nasty.
They was there.
And this
IGA store, Avery, he's dead now but he furnished the axe handles
and the ball bats and all that kind of stuff.
He furnished it
to them and that's when they started hitting and hitting in the
line and that's when Sherrod told everybody turn around, go
back, go back.
Said everybody go to the car.
got hit and bloody.
But a lot of them
They had to carry some to the doctor.
That
was that bad time.
Houston:
And so this was after many people had been jailed.
mean you were in jail during this bad time?
I
Williams -
106
Williams: No, this was just before we went
Houston:
to jail?
Williams: M-hm.
Wait now.
Bloody Saturday.
Well, it might
have been ... That was before we went to jail.
Well, how did we went to ...
before we went to jail.
Or after, one.
Oh, that Bloody Saturday, that was
Because after then, that next week,
that's when they locked up then so many.
Houston:
So Bloody Saturday was before anyone went to jail?
Williams: I won't say anyone, because some was already ...
Houston:
But before you went to jail?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
So who went to jail first?
Williams: Oh Lord.
Houston:
I don't know.
Were the first people to go to jail the people who
were considered to be the leaders?
How were the first people
Williams who went to jail chosen?
107
Were they chosen just because they
happened to be marching the first day of arrests?
Williams: The peoples who went to jail were those who wouldn't
turn around and go back.
Houston:
So some did turn around?
Williams: I believe my son was in that first lock up too.
I
believe he was.
Houston:
Henry?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
So he was just a little boy.
Williams: He wasn't a little boy.
Houston:
Well, he couldn't have been any more than about
fourteen or fifteen.
He was born in 1950, right?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And this was around '64, '65, '66, in there somewhere,
Williams -
108
right?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
So he was fifteen years old.
Williams: But anyway, he was in that group.
Houston:
And how long did that first group stay in jail?
Williams: I think they stayed in about two weeks, or going on
three weeks.
Houston:
And what was it like in jail?
Williams: It was rough.
Houston:
Well, what do you mean?
Williams: Well, we didn't have nowhere to just lay down and
sleep.
all.
We had to sit up.
So we grown people, they put us in the little calibou,
they called it.
there.
The jail was full of teenagers and
So wasn't no bed.
It was one mattress in
Weren't no bed, just a mattress standing up by the wall.
And we chomped it out.
And we just had to sit up, just sit up
Williams -
109
against the wall, and do what little sleeping we did do.
these mens come to get us out but we wouldn't get out.
wouldn't go out.
But
We
But what they did, what the law wanted to do,
to get all the local peoples out and let, like Sherrod and all
of them, you know, stay in so they could dog them around.
we wouldn't come out.
We just stayed right there.
But
These mens
would come like Orange Hawkins, Harrison Hawkins, and Walter
Singletary, Julius Williams, all them would come to bond us out
but we wouldn't go out.
Houston:
Now, so the people who came to get you out were Black
people.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
But the purpose of getting you out was to keep the
out-of-towners in jail
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
so that the Whites could harass them.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
So, were the Blacks who came to get you out working
Williams -
110
for the Whites?
Williams: Un-uh [no].
They were on their own.
Man: The citizens that was in, they was judging from if they had
suffered to the point that they wanted, they would come out.
They wasn't nothing like working for the interests of the
Whites.
Houston:
They may not have been working for the Whites, but
what they wanted to do was to get the local people out of jail
and not get the out-of-towners out of jail?
In other words, you
mentioned Orange Hawkins and Harrison Hawkins and I guess some
other names.
And those were local landowners, is that right?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Local landowners.
And those local Black landowners wanted to bail out of
jail local Blacks, is that right?
Williams: Well, they would have got all out but see, ... Now
how'd that went?
Anyway, after they saw what we wanted -- we
didn't want to leave the out-of-town peoples in there.
And we
said when we come out, everybody was going to be able to come
out.
Williams -
Houston:
111
Right.
Williams: So that's when CB then stepped in and came down.
Houston:
And what did CB do?
Williams: CB was our attorney.
Well, he come and the first day-
- I don't know what happened but they wouldn't let us out.
But
the next day, he come back and they let us out and we had a
little court or something.
nobody left in there.
But everybody come out; wasn't
We wasn't going to come out until
everybody come out.
Houston:
So on the second day, everybody was released.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
On the second day that CB King came down.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Then what happened?
Did you continue to demonstrate?
Williams: No, I think we ... after court and everything, then
Williams -
112
they began -- some of the White folks, they began, you know,
agreeing to do this and do that.
And agreed to do some of the
things that we wanted did.
Houston:
What were your demands?
Williams: Well, jobs and what not and put Blacks in some of
these offices where all the Whites is and everything.
they decided to do some of that.
Black in the Post Office.
Because we didn't have no
We didn't have no Black in the bank.
And no Black in the stores.
Houston:
And after
None of them.
And what about voter registration?
Was that part of
the demand?
Williams:
Houston:
M-hm.
To allow Blacks to register to vote?
Williams: Yeah.
Houston:
That was part of the demands of the demonstrators?
Williams: Well, we really had gotten them to register them
before then.
But, you know, they first didn't want to register
Williams them but we just ...
somewhere.
register.
Houston:
113
Well, we called in some peoples from
They got that straightened out.
So we could
They went to registering peoples.
So, in other words, Blacks were able to go downtown to
the courthouse and register to vote?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
This was part of the negotiations.
Williams: Yeah, that was all in it because they used to wood if
you couldn't read, then they wouldn't register you.
couldn't read or write.
If you
And they would have you reading
paragraphs.
Houston:
Right.
Were there any other demands?
Were there any
demands about a trial for the people accused of murdering Hosey
Miller?
Williams: Were there other demands?
Houston:
Yeah, when you were marching.
because Hosey Miller had been murdered.
You started marching
Williams -
114
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
So was the purpose of the march to demand the trial
and conviction of Miller's killers?
demand?
Or did it just become a general civil rights protest?
Williams: Well, maybe.
Houston:
Was that part of the
Okay.
Anyway, all that was combined in it.
Was there ever a trial?
Williams: About the killer?
Houston:
Uh-huh [yes].
Williams: They had a trial or something but the way that wound
up, I really didn't know how it wound up.
Because they locked
them up in Camilla and we really didn't know where they was
locked up.
Some said they just was over there, staying with
some of their people or something.
We really didn't know
whether they was in jail or what.
Houston:
Okay.
So in other words, after CB King came down the
second day and got everybody out of jail, a series of
negotiations began with some of the local White leaders in order
to integrate the Post Office, the bank, some of the office
Williams -
115
buildings, some of the stores and to get Blacks registered to
vote down at the courthouse.
Is that right?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And who actually did the negotiations for the Black
community?
Who was it who met with Whites in order to work out
these arrangements?
Who were the Blacks who actually
represented the local Black community?
Williams: Some of the landowners like some of the names you got
there, Julius Williams and Carl Broadway and T. Kunny, they
would meet with them.
They'd get some information, you know,
from Charles Sherrod, and they would meet with them.
Houston:
Okay.
Well, it sounds as though things didn't change
very much at all until this murder and then all of a sudden,
they changed very rapidly.
I mean, listening to what you said,
it sounds like things pretty much were pretty quiet and then
this murder happened and suddenly people were very outraged
about it.
And were willing to stand up and to do something
about it even though it was dangerous.
Williams: Yeah, we were.
took on.
That's when the action really, really
Some peoples, you know, you couldn't get to do
Williams anything.
ready.
116
But some after this happened, they was willing and
And then some, we never could get.
Houston:
Now who were the ones who were unwilling to do
anything?
Williams: Well, most of those who live on the White peoples'
place, you couldn't get them to do anything because the Boss Man
had told them if they participate, they would have to hunt them
somewhere to go.
So really, they had them kind of scared to
participate.
Houston:
And did their refusal to participate anger those who
were participating?
Did the Blacks who were willing to march
feel angry with the Blacks who were unwilling to march?
Williams: Well, we thought a little hard of them but then we
could understand too.
But, you know, if they didn't have no
where else to stay, we, you know, kind of understood.
I'd have been crazy enough to just try it out and see.
But see,
They
could have found somewhere to stay, I believe, but they just,
you know ...
Houston:
They were just afraid to lose their livelihood.
Williams -
117
Williams: And some of them were scared to register if they was
on the White man's place.
Houston:
Were there many outsiders involved in this?
Williams: Pretty good.
Houston:
We had a problem with that too.
Pretty good.
And who were they, for the most part?
I mean, when
you say "pretty good", how many outsiders would you say came in?
Williams: Well, I really don't just really know the number of
outsiders but it was Black and White.
knowed them and all.
Houston:
He had worked with them.
So were they mostly SNCC people?
Williams: That's what they were.
them -- SNCC.
Houston:
You know, Sherrod, he
Well, that's what they called
[laughs]
Were there any SCLC people?
Williams: Any what now?
Houston:
Southern Christian Leadership Conference people,
people from Atlanta?
Williams -
Williams: I think so.
Some of them.
118
Mixed up, you know.
Sherrod knowed about them.
Houston:
Okay.
And so, after that, that was really the
beginning of the movement here.
This was in the middle to late
sixties, I guess.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Well, I suppose the only other thing I want to ask is
whether earlier, you know, back in the fifties, you know, when
you were working on Julius Miller's farm, you know, do you
recall when the Supreme Court decided that it was illegal to
discriminate on the basis of race in education?
Do you recall
the crisis in Little Rock about school desegregation?
Do you
recall those things at all back in the fifties?
Williams: Some of them because two of my children, two of
Grace's children.
Anyway, it should have been about maybe ten
or twelve, you know, we put them in the White school and they
didn't want to go, you know.
We put them in there.
it tough and rough but we made them stay on in there.
come back and tell you how they treated them.
there during the day.
They caught
They'd
But we'd go up
From there, they've been all going.
Williams -
119
After they had it tough that school term, then the next school
term, some more went so finally we just got it agoing.
Houston:
And when was that?
Williams: That was along in that time.
Man: In the fifties.
Williams: M-hm.
Something like that.
Movement started in '65 and '66.
Let me see now.
The
So that was along in that
time, they integrated.
Houston:
'65, '66?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: Integrated the schools.
Man: That's right.
Houston:
In the sixties.
Let's see if there's anything else I want to ask you.
When you were living on the Miller's farm, I mean, was it
Williams -
120
generally considered to be better to share crop for a Black
farmer than for a White farmer?
Or did it matter?
If you were
farming for shares, did it matter whether you were on a Black
farm?
Whether the landowner was Black or the landowner was
White?
Were you less likely to be cheated if the landowner was
Black?
Or could it happen no matter who the landowner was?
Williams: Well, it could happen, you know, no matter who the
landowner was.
But no doubt, you wouldn't know, you know.
But
after I got grown, I ain't never worked with nothing but Blacks.
I didn't farm with no Whites.
Houston:
And when you were working for Blacks, did you ever
have any problems settling up?
I mean, did you ever feel, you
know, that they were taking more than they should?
Williams: Well, not really.
Or maybe I didn't know, you know.
Because if they said, "This caused this and that" all I had to
... you know, just accept it.
know, what they were ...
But I had more confidence in, you
But although I believe Black took as
well as White but then I just really didn't know that.
Houston:
Okay.
And the reason you didn't know is because they
never showed you the books.
they never showed you ...
They just kept all the records and
Williams -
121
Williams: Well, they would go, you know, down the line with some
things, which if they had it wrote down so all you could do is
agree.
You know, agree with it.
Man: But I did notice when you started with the Millers, you
came from the Millers to this place.
How did that happen?
Williams: How did it happen?
Man: M-hm.
From the sharecropping to this house.
How did you
get this house?
Williams: Well, through by my children.
Man: Then no sharecropping money went in this house?
Williams: Un-uh [no].
Because see, when they was getting this
up, you know, I really didn't let them know anything after the
house was built and everything, you know.
Some of them said
that if they'd have known it, they would have gave me some land
over there on the Miller's.
But see, well I didn't know it and
I didn't believe they would do it.
know.
They didn't know.
So I was doing this, you
So my daughter, she wrote to all my
children, what all, and she had them to send.
They got up about
Williams -
122
$750.00 and we bought this land from Hall, Burgie Hall -- Walter
Hall up there.
We bought this acre of land from them.
And then
when they knowed anything, the house was, you know, coming up.
So through by my children, this is how I'm here.
FHA, you know.
And through
But like I said, when they told me that, they
still could have did it if they wanted to help me.
didn't.
Houston:
But they
So.
So, in a sense, working for Blacks was marginally
better because you had greater confidence that they wouldn't
take advantage of you to the same extent perhaps that Whites
might take advantage of you.
But you still felt that it was
possible, since they were landowners, that they could take
advantage.
Williams: Yeah.
They could have.
But I felt more, you know,
confident with the Blacks because the Blacks weren't going to
tell me.
Well, if they could, it wouldn't
.
They wasn't
going to tell me I couldn't do this and I couldn't do that, or
participate in this and that.
Houston:
Right.
Because I would have did it.
Now, when you were working for the Blacks on
the land, did you have to keep your kids out of school to work
on the farm?
Or were your kids able to go to school?
Williams -
123
Williams: Well ... [End of Tape 2, Side A]
[Begin Tape 2, Side B]
Houston:
... to work on the farm.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
But I never did plan to do my children ...
No, you didn't do your children like that.
Williams: Now my children, what I would have them to do when
they got in from school, get out of their clothes and eat and go
on to the fields, you know.
Houston:
Okay.
to ask you.
You know, I can't think of anything else really
I think we've covered this pretty well.
Is there
anything that you'd like to add, I mean, considering what we've
been talking about?
You know, about life under segregation?
I
suppose one thing that I should ask that I haven't asked is, you
know, before 1960, or I guess actually before 1965, you know,
what were the most visible signs of Jim Crow?
What were the
most visible signs of segregation for you in your community?
I
mean, how were you made most aware of the status of Black people
in Baker County?
I mean, when you went into town, what were
some of the ways in which you knew there were two societies -- a
Black society and a White society?
It's not a trick question.
Williams -
124
I mean, I assume there were signs for White Only in places or
for Blacks.
Were there things like that?
Williams: Oh yeah.
the water things.
That was at the courthouse.
You know, like
But all they would have White Only.
And if
we drank water out of there, you know, they would try to stop
us.
We'd have to drink from ... it was a thing out and had a
spigot and the water would run kind of all the time.
Man: Water fountain.
Williams: M-hm.
But it wasn't like -- it was just out in front
of the courthouse, a big old brick
water from there.
and we had to drink
But their fountain was right in the
courthouse and they could drink cool water, you know.
Man: It was just ordinary water, steady running.
Williams: M-hm.
M-hm.
Houston:
So it wasn't cooled.
Okay.
Williams: No!
Houston:
What other kinds of symbols of segregation were there,
Williams -
125
other than the water foundation?
Williams: You know, we couldn't use the restrooms in the
courthouse.
Houston:
So if you had to use the restroom, where could you go?
Williams: You'd go down there on the river or somewhere if you
just had to use it while you was in town.
Houston:
So there were no restrooms in town for Blacks?
Williams: Not along in that time, you know, but there is now.
Houston:
No, I know.
But I mean back in the forties and
fifties, there were no restrooms in town.
businesses?
What about Black
Were there any Black businesses in town?
Williams: Un-uh [no].
The only Black business we had is right
up here and to the Halls.
WM was running his store then and
we'd do a lot of shopping from him.
Houston:
So the only Black business was Halls?
Williams: M-hm.
Williams -
Houston:
126
And what was the business?
Williams: Well, he had a grocery store and, you know, lax gas.
Houston:
Halls Grocery Store and Gasoline?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And it was -- you said -- lax gas?
Williams: Hm?
Houston:
I'm sorry.
Williams: Gas station.
Houston:
And Hall owned that too?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And what was Hall's first name?
Williams: W.M. Hall, Jr.
Well, that's Walter Hall.
Williams Houston:
Okay.
127
And that was really the only Black business?
No other Black businesses?
Williams: No.
Houston:
Well, not in Newton.
Was there a movie theatre here?
Williams: Hm?
Houston:
Was there a movie theatre in Newton?
Williams: Un-uh [no].
Houston:
So Blacks couldn't go to the movies?
Williams: Well, I guess in Ogden or Camilla they could.
really don't know where.
I
Were there any movies along in there?
I don't know.
Man: There was movies in Albany.
In those days, we had movies
and we could go because we could go upstairs.
Williams: In Albany?
Man: In Albany.
Williams -
128
Williams: Wasn't nothing like that down here.
Houston:
Okay.
Well, you know, unless there's something else
you'd like to add to this period, I can't think of anything else
to ask you.
I do have the biography form which I'll have to run
out to the car and get because I'd like to get your help to fill
that out.
Williams: Okay.
Houston:
Okay?
Williams: But I can say and I must say that we have really come
from a long ways.
God's help.
Houston:
Really, really have.
Through God and by
We made it.
So you've seen a lot of change.
Williams: Everything ain't just right but it's much better.
Houston:
What do you think is the most pressing problem today
that we face?
When you say everything's not just right, what do
you consider to be the biggest problem that needs to be
remedied?
Williams -
129
Williams: Well, some people you still can't get them to register
to vote.
And some peoples, if they register, they won't vote.
You know, it's still little problems.
And mostly among our
peoples.
But what can you do about it?
Houston:
Right.
Williams: If we all was on one accord, we could get things did.
And I mean and it wouldn't be no problem.
get some people to see it yet.
But you just can't
And I guess it'll always be like
that.
Houston:
Well, you know, I mean the civil rights movements made
its gains without everybody pulling.
I mean, there were some
people who were afraid to participate.
Williams: I imagine so.
Houston:
And then there were other people who were more
courageous and were willing to take chances and take risks.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
So do you think things are getting better or do you
Williams -
130
think they seem to be getting worse?
Williams: Well, I tell you, sometimes it makes you think that
we're going on our way back where were.
Houston:
What makes you think that?
Williams: Because sometimes you just can't get peoples to, you
know, do nothing.
It discourages you sometime but then again,
you look on the other hand, well, you have to go on and use what
you have.
Peoples is something else.
I guess that's just ...
Man: When you say "peoples" what do you mean?
Williams: You know, like you can't get peoples to, you know ...
Man: Do you mean Blacks?
Williams: Yeah.
See, I just be feeling like by now we all ought
to almost be together.
Maybe we all will never be but most
peoples now, they done seen what happened.
happening now.
And seen what's
And they ought to be more interested now than
they were back then.
Houston:
Do you feel there's less industry now that there was
Williams -
131
back then?
Williams: I almost believe it is.
Houston:
And why do you think that's true?
I mean, do you have
any sense of why that might be?
Williams: Because some, you know, ... maybe I can't explain
myself.
Houston:
That's okay.
You're doing real well.
Man: Sister Williams, do you think this is the Black man's
fault?
Do you think we as Black people, that's our fault why
we're not advancing or getting together?
Or do you just think
the young generation don't care?
Houston:
Could we just get you to identify your voice, because
this is going to be transcribed and people listening to it won't
know who you are.
So maybe you could just tell them.
Man: I thought you had cut that.
Houston:
No, no.
You still have got that on?
It's still running.
Williams Man: I'm Charles Hawk.
132
Sister Williams and Brother Houston,
I've just been listening on this.
I'm presently Director of the
Metropolitan General Information Service in Albany and also
Executive Member of the NAACP there.
Chairperson of the
Education and Human Rights Committee.
work together and closer together.
Central
we could
I believe that but I wanted
to hear what you had to say about your reason to think we're
not.
I've got some ideas but I think it's still the White man's
fault but
.
I think that we haven't put a lot
of the educational process on this to get people to vote, tell
them how important it is to have their own elected officials.
See, if we ever got that, then we would almost be forced -maybe that's the wrong term but if we ever got enough elected
Black officials, then we'd be forced into things that make
people do better.
And that is the White power structure.
Economics and everything else would somehow come into being.
It
may take a long time, when they talk about business and all of
this.
But it wasn't nothing ...
Houston:
I'm just going to go get the biography form.
I'll be
right back.
Williams: So you think it's us?
Man: It's us for the most part when you talk about voting.
Williams -
133
Williams: M-hm.
Man: Don't care.
Don't think it's going to make a difference.
See, a lot of Blacks think it's going to make a difference.
They'll tell you, "What has it done for you?"
You did all this
in the sixties, but where you are now you still don't have this,
you don't have that, you know, better off.
We get it all the
time with this negativeness that takes place from the young
Blacks.
it.
I don't know where you ...
In the schools, they say
You get them in different discussions, they'll say, "well,
why should I vote?
It ain't going to make no difference no way.
Because it hasn't gotten you anything."
That's the young
generation that says that you went all through this thirty years
ago but what has it gotten you?
about all of that.
Well, I don't care nothing
It's not going to make any difference.
We
just have to keep striving forward, to teach these people that
it will make a difference to have them go to the polls and vote
for who they think may be the better person.
And by this, in
numbers, they will be able to get someone in office that would
represent them, whether it's Black or White, but it'd be
somebody of their choice.
Do you agree with that?
Williams: Well, I guess maybe you're right.
and you can talk to them and then talk.
But you can talk
But it seems to me that
Williams -
134
they just don't care nothing for registering no more.
And like
what it is, they're going to do what they're want to do anyway.
So, you know.
But you can tell them, well, "Your vote might
make the different" but they don't believe that.
know what it's going to take.
So I don't
Just say a prayer, I guess.
Prayer talk.
Houston:
Mrs. Williams, I've got a form here.
little while to fill it out.
It'll take us a
It's kind of a family biography
form and I need to ask you some questions about yourself and
your family.
Your last name is Williams with an "s", right?
Williams: Yes.
Houston:
And that's Leola Davis.
Birthdate: 12-10-1919.
And
what's your address, please?
Williams: Route 2, Box
Houston:
Okay.
Route 2.
number?
Williams: Un-uh [no].
Houston:
Route 2.
There's not a street address, not a
Williams -
135
Williams: Box 1250, Newton.
Houston:
And the zipcode?
Williams: 31770.
Houston:
Okay.
And your principle occupation has been farming?
Housewife, farming, homemaker.
Williams: Well, now, what about ... Would I say farming if I'd
done some more work since farming?
Houston:
Well, actually, I'm mainly interested in what you were
doing during this period, not so much since.
Williams: Oh, well, farming then.
Houston:
Okay.
And homemaking because actually, your sons were
... The lease, the contract was in your name but your sons were
doing a lot of the farming.
right?
Williams: M-hm.
I mean you were also homemaking,
Williams Houston:
And I'm sure I've got your telephone number.
136
Let me
just ask you again.
Williams: 734-
Houston:
That's 912, right?
Williams: Yeah.
Houston:
912/734-5191.
And your maiden name is Davis?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
And do you use your maiden name or do you go
just by Leola Williams?
Williams: Some of my mail be Leola Davis Williams and some of it
just Leola Williams.
Houston:
Which one do you prefer?
Williams: Leola D. Williams.
Houston:
Okay.
And you were born in Baker County.
Williams -
137
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
But not in the City of Newton.
Would you say Ichaway,
Baker County?
Williams: Just really Baker County, in the country.
Houston:
Okay.
And you are divorced or widowed?
Williams: Widowed.
Wait now.
I ain't divorced.
Divorced.
That's
widowed, right?
Houston:
Yeah, widowed is your spouse is dead.
Williams: Un-uh.
Houston:
[no]
He ain't dead.
Oh, so you're divorced.
Williams: Well, I ain't got no divorce.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: What would you call it?
Houston:
Well, I don't know.
[laughs]
I guess I'd say you were divorced
Williams or yeah, separated.
138
But there's no category here for separated.
And you're not married.
I'm going to say "divorced" because
there's no category for separated.
It's a permanent separation.
I mean, you've been separated for forty years.
Williams: Ooh, a long time.
Houston:
Yeah.
forty years."
So I'll say divorced.
I'll write in "separated
How's that?
Williams: That's fine.
Houston:
And what's your spouse's first name?
and last name?
First, middle
Your former husband?
Williams: Robert Lee Williams.
Houston:
Okay.
And when was he born?
If you don't know the
month and day, the year or the approximate year.
Williams: He's two years older than me.
Houston:
So he was born in 1917.
Williams: M-hm.
And he's still living?
Williams -
Houston:
And was he also born in Baker County?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And his occupation was farmer.
Williams: Yeah.
Houston:
Mostly.
And your mother's first, middle and last name?
Williams: Lizzie Taylor Davis.
Houston:
And her maiden name was Taylor?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And when was she born?
Williams: I might would have to get the Bible there out.
Houston:
Do you know how old she was when you were born?
Williams: No, but I knew she was 88 when she passed.
139
Williams Houston:
And when did she pass?
140
Do you know what year she
died?
Williams: I know the month was in March.
I don't know what
year.
Man: Think about things that happened during the time that she
died.
You're talking about her mother.
Houston:
Right.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
She was born in Baker County though, right?
Williams: Uh-huh [yes].
Houston:
I thought it was in this Bible.
Well, you know, if you can't find it, what we can do
is we can move on.
And it may come back to you later or if you
don't remember it, we can leave it blank.
And maybe you'll come
across it and I can call you or I can get it from you later.
Man: Did your mother die before the fifties?
Williams: Un-uh [no].
Williams -
141
Man: Was it before you built this house?
Williams: Since I was here.
Man: Since you built this house.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And you came here in '72.
Man: That'll give you some idea.
Maybe it was in the mid-
seventies.
Williams: I'm not sure.
Houston:
1919.
Well, now, you were the fifth child.
You were born in
So assuming your mother was at least 25 when you were
born, that means your mother would have been born in about 1894
and ....
Man: Well, it could have been '97.
awhile ago.
I was thinking about it
Since she was born in 1919 and her marriage was
taken place ...
Williams Williams: I think this is it.
Houston:
142
She was born March 28, 1896.
So you found it in here.
So she was born March 28,
1896.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Right?
'84.
And if she was 88 when she died, she died in '84.
If she was born in '96 and lived to be 88, she died in
What was your father's full name, first, middle and last?
Williams: Will Davis.
Houston:
Will Davis?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
He didn't have a middle name?
Williams: Un-uh [no].
Houston:
And what about his date of birth?
Do you have it
there?
Williams: I can hardly make it out.
Maybe that's 1891, the 25th
Williams -
143
of July.
Houston:
Yeah.
1891, 25 July.
Seven, twenty-five, 1891.
So July is the seventh month.
And how old was he when he died?
Williams: I believe he was 94.
Houston:
94.
So that means he died in '85.
after your mother.
He outlived your mother by one year.
Williams: Something like that.
Houston:
He died the year
So I'll put 1895.
I know that it's close.
And father's place of birth?
Baker
County?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
You're going to need that Bible yet because I'm
going to ask you all about your brothers and sisters.
And
father's occupation was a farmer.
Williams: You have to have all that?
Houston:
Well, I'm afraid so.
their names.
Is it handy?
I know there are a lot of them.
Let's start with
They're fourteen
Williams of you, right?
144
I don't think I have fourteen lines.
I'll have
to write real small.
Williams: But you know what?
I'm number four.
Houston:
Well, that's okay.
Oh, is that right?
of the big kids.
Yeah, fourteen children.
write really small.
So you're one
So I'll have to
I've got nine lines here.
Williams: It was thirteen.
Houston:
Thirteen children.
Okay.
Williams: I guess what made me say fourteen, I always remember
her saying the first one died.
Houston:
Okay.
She was the mother of fourteen.
So can we start with I guess maybe only the
names of the living children.
However you want to do that.
But
what I'm going to need all together are their names, their birth
and death dates and their place of birth.
I mean, I guess they
were all born in Baker County so that part'll be easy.
Williams: I might not know the dates there.
that's ...
I don't believe
Williams -
145
Man: Sister, I was interested in what you just said about the
first one died.
Williams:
In childbirth?
Did it live a month?
I believe I heared her say she losed it ... you know
like you used to replant corn?
And I think she losed it that
way.
Houston:
Oh you mean, she was working and then she lost the
child?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
I can just copy the names out of there if
they're there.
Williams: What you want, the children?
Houston:
Yeah, in the order of birth.
So where do they start?
Williams: You mean my sisters?
Houston:
Yeah, your sisters and brothers.
Williams: Did you say you want all or those who are living?
Williams Houston:
146
Well, I'll take all of them if you have them all.
Williams: Well, you can start right there.
Lesley Lee Hudson,
or Davis.
Houston:
Lesley Lee Hudson Davis?
Williams: Davis Hudson.
Houston:
She was born January 26, 1914.
Davis and he was born 3-17-1915.
Elijah] Davis, born 2-1-17.
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Right.
And then Robert Lee
And then Eligh [pronounced
And then you.
So that made the fourth one of me.
And that's 12-10-1919.
Davis, born 3-16-1922.
And then Henry Lee
And is that J.C. Davis?
Williams: J.B.
Houston:
J.B. Davis.
He was born 8-25-24.
And then Lottie Mae
Davis, born 4-13-25.
Your mom was busy, having those babies
real close together.
And then Mae Ollie Davis.
Williams: Who do you have?
Williams -
Houston:
I've got Lottie Mae.
Davis, born April 11, 1926.
And then Mae Ollie.
147
Mae Ollie
And then Will Davis, Jr., 7-12-33.
And then Oline Davis, born 9-28-36.
And then Virginia Davis,
born
Williams: I let you made a mistake because Virginia is mine.
But her name just was wrote in there.
Houston:
Oh, so she's your child?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
So I'll just cross her out and put her down
because that's the next question.
Is she the first of your
children?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
yours?
And how many of those will there be?
These are all
Lizzie?
Williams: Un-uh. [no]
These are the balance of my mother's.
Just leave Virginia out and Lizzie will come after Oline.
Williams Houston:
Okay.
148
Lizzie O. Davis and she was born 12-29-39.
there's a big gap.
There's a three year gap.
So
And then L.D.
Davis, born 4-5-40.
Williams: See, that's it.
Houston:
Okay, now we're going to need your kids too.
they all here?
Now are
Now, Virginia is your child, right?
Williams: M-hm.
Man: Can I ask a question?
mistakes?
Houston:
Did he make one mistake or two
The one that was born in 1933, who was that?
Will Davis, Jr. was born in 1933.
Man: Okay.
Houston:
This is twelve.
Virginia would have been thirteen but
Williams: Yeah, but she's mine.
Houston:
Okay.
So there were twelve kids.
Williams: Well, thirteen with the one.
Williams -
Houston:
149
Well, but I've got twelve names without Virginia's.
Williams: And what else did you ....
Houston:
Well, you know, if you have them, I'd like their death
dates if any of your brothers and sisters have died.
But if you
don't know that, I can move on to the place of birth, where they
were born.
Were they all born here in Baker County?
Williams: All born in Baker County.
dates.
Not many dead.
Houston:
children.
That's okay.
So maybe we could move on to your
How many children did you have altogether?
Williams: Ten.
Houston:
But I don't have the death
You've got Virginia.
No, I didn't write her down yet.
Was she the first
born?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
So, Virginia.
Virginia Davis?
Now what's Virginia's last name?
Is it
Williams -
150
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
So her last name's Davis.
And what's her birthdate?
Williams: Was it in there?
Houston:
Yeah.
It was January 5, '37.
Were these children all
born in Baker County too?
Williams: M-hm.
We ain't never left Baker County but they did
after they got grown.
Houston:
Makes my job easy.
So James then?
Williams: James Robert Williams, or James R.
Houston:
And he was born April 18, 1939.
And Lessie Mae,
Lessie Willie?
Williams: Lessie Williams.
Houston:
Williams.
Oh, Williams, okay.
Born 16 May, 1940.
And J.C.
Williams -
151
Williams: I never could have thought of all this.
Houston:
1944.
Born 6-11-1942.
And Shirley Williams, born July 14,
And Benjamin Williams, born 5-12-46.
born 11-18-48.
I know we're getting close to Henry.
Williams, born 25 July 1950.
Herman.
Roosevelt Williams,
And Herman.
Eugene H.
So your son's name is
I thought it was Henry.
Williams: That's another one.
Houston:
Oh.
Williams: Herman and a Henry.
Houston:
Herman Williams, born 2-2-52.
born 3-19-54.
Where's Henry?
Williams: Henry?
Houston:
You've got him there.
Oh, Eugene H.
Williams: He's really named Henry Eugene.
Houston:
And Eddie B. Williams,
But it's Eugene H. there.
Eugene.
Williams -
152
Williams: Yeah, that's the way they got it.
Houston:
Okay.
And all your children are living?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
And I know you have at least one grandchild because I
met her.
How many grandchildren do you have altogether?
Williams: Really it ought to be, might be reaching the fifties.
I have been saying I was going to sit down and count them all
one day.
But it's on up there.
I know it's in the forties.
Houston:
Should I put down forty to fifty?
Between forty to
fifty?
Williams: M-hm.
Houston:
Okay.
Williams: And maybe about nine greatgrand.
Houston:
Well, we don't have to list greatgrands.
Williams: Good.
Williams -
Houston:
Spare you that part.
really easy.
Now, this next one should be
Because it says I have to list all the places
you've ever lived and when you lived there.
So I'll just put
down Baker County.
Williams: Baker County.
Houston:
And that'll be 1919 to present.
From the time you
were born to now.
Williams: I'm still here.
Houston:
Now, you attended the Green Grove School?
Williams: Yes.
Houston:
And that's in Newton?
Williams: Well, yeah.
Houston:
Baker County.
Newton.
And you went there from grade 1 to grade 7, right?
Williams: I went to sixth grade.
153
Williams Houston:
Okay, so grade 1 to grade 6.
You probably started there about what?
Williams: School?
Houston:
154
You were born in 1919.
Age 7, age 6?
Probably 5.
So you would have started there in 1924.
there until what?
And you went
Age 15, 16?
Williams: 16, something like that.
Houston:
And you would have been 16 in 1935.
And you went
through grade 6, you said?
Williams: I was promoted to 6.
But I say, thank God.
I didn't go through grade 6.
I went back in my what -- forties or
something -- and got my GED.
Houston:
Oh, did you?
Williams: M-hm.
I have my diploma over yonder.
Houston:
And what year did you earn that?
Okay.
Williams Williams: I believe that -- is that '87?
Do you see it there?
Couldn't have been '87.
Was it?
Do you see the GED diploma?
[End of Tape 2, Side B]
[End of Interview.]
Transcribed by
Victoria Haas
of TapeScripts+
Maywood, Illinois
155