“Jersey” Jay Hyne
Bryan “The Dog” Steinkohl
First Ever Louis Lunatic article!
21 March 2005
PTI-style Sox/Yanks debate (the title’s all yours Andrew/Aaron)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------First topic: Off-season pitching acquisitions and subtractions – who was better?
Jersey: I’m gonna have to go with the Yankees on this one. Picking up Randy Johnson
was just tremendous. In the postseason, having the Randy Johnson – the most dominant
playoff pitcher in baseball – stride to the mound once, twice, or maybe even three times
for your team is huge. And losing Javier Vazquez is understandable; he fell apart in the
postseason, which is all that matters in New York. Maybe you’d understand that if your
team was there more often. And if you haven’t noticed, your ace isn’t exactly ready as
planned for Opening Day.
Dog: First of all, you have to understand the question before you answer it. Curt
Schilling would not be an acquisition, but Matt Clement has the ability to be great and
David Wells knows how to pitch under pressure. The Sox have about seven starters, and
by midseason their best starter will be Wade Miller, because he is going to be amazing
once he gets used to playing in Boston.
Jay: Miller is going to be amazing, the same way Kevin Brown was supposed to be
amazing in 2004? What makes you think Miller is going to be your best pitcher?
Dog: Kevin Brown is a joke. When Wade Miller was healthy in Houston, he had a
record of something like 40-10. He had an amazing record and he pitched great for the
Astros.
Jay: And what about Jaret Wright? He was 15-8 last year with a 3.28 ERA. And Carl
Pavano, the NL Cy Young candidate? They’re winners, and young too – unlike Mr.
Wells you picked up. I think that any staff that has Kevin Brown, as rough as he was at
times last season, as its fifth starter is in real good shape.
Dog: First of all, David Wells is too old? No, Kevin Brown is washed up. Wells had a
great year for San Diego last year. And what did Kevin Brown bring to the Yankees last
year? What did Jaret Wright do before 2004? Nothing. Ohhh yeahhh, one-nothing me!
Second topic: World Series hangover – do the Red Sox have one?
Jay: I think they do, but a hangover is inevitable when you take a bunch of idiots lucky
enough to squeak by the Yankees in the ALCS, and ask them to once again realign the
stars of the universe by repeating. Nobody could survive that kind of unreality without a
hangover.
Dog: We’re proud to be that bunch of idiots! And it was tough to hear you, it sounded
like you were choking on your words. Anyway, those lucky breaks the Red Sox got?
Well the Yankees had been getting them for years. And any team that can retool like
they did in the off-season and still has the guys who basically won them the World Series
– Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz, Curt Schilling – last year they said Ortiz could never
duplicate the season he had in 2003. And then he went out and almost won the MVP. So
you know what? I don’t see a World Series hangover. If you don’t like to believe it,
fine. We’ll see you in October.
Jay: When I make my playoffs bets, I put my money on experience. And all of the
Yankees have been there before. Randy Johnson killed us in 2001, so we went out and
got him. The core of the team has been there since 1996. The Red Sox have only won as
a team once.
Dog: Whoa whoa whoa. The whole team is back because they won last year.
Jay: Except that you lost Pedro Martinez, the heart of the Red Sox rotation since 1998.
By the way, Ortiz has had two great years, who knows if he’ll duplicate again.
Remember, once is an incidence, twice is a coincidence, but it takes three to make a
pattern. I don’t see him doing it – those Twinkies will catch up to him, and if they don’t,
the age factor could begin to wear on the overall Sox team.
Dog: Do you bet from a science experiment? It takes three to make a pattern? How did
you make that up? Here’s the thing. The core of this Sox team is not that old, although
the starting rotation does have its age, the role players on the team play their role
extremely well, looking at Bill Mueller and Kevin Millar specifically.
Jay: But Bill Mueller missed something like 50 games last year with a knee injury. The
guy’s in his mid-30’s coming off an off-year with an injury.
Dog: Now you say that the Red Sox only have one World Series team. At least they have
the vast majority of their players returning. How many players are still around on the
Yankees from their World Series years?
Jay: Derek Jeter, Jorge Posada, Bernie Williams, Mariano Rivera, and Mike Stanton, and
Tino Martinez. That’s six, and most of them will contribute heavily to the Yankees this
year. And don’t forget Rey Sanchez who was a Yankee in 1997, as well as Ruben Sierra,
who was on the team in ’96.
Dog: Well count how many guys on the Sox were there last year and are here now. And
don’t talk to me about Stanton and guys like that. They’re just back with the team now.
Jay: When the Yankees won their four Series in five years, they walked through much of
it. They swept Atlanta and San Diego, and only lost one to the Mets. They won 12 of 13
World Series games in three years. But that’s because they had a 125-win team in 1998.
The Red Sox snuck into the playoffs last year as the Wild Card, couldn’t even win their
division. They just barely got to the Series at all, barely beating the Yankees. And now
their biggest competition just got even better with the acquisitions of Randy Johnson,
Pavano, and Wright. They also patched up the holes in their bullpen with Mike Stanton
and Felix Rodriguez. Now do you honestly think the Red Sox are at the repeat level of
the late-1990’s Yanks? No way. I question if they’ll even make the playoffs! Point –
JERSEY.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Third topic – which would be a more crushing injury – Yanks lose Rivera or Sox lose
Schilling?
Jay: I’m gonna say Boston losing Curt Schilling. He’s already out for Opening Day,
possibly missing up to a couple of weeks. Six of the first nine Red Sox games are against
the Yankees, and not having their ace out there and available during that stretch will hurt
them. The worst thing for Boston would be to lose four of six or worse to the team they
beat last year. They can’t afford to get behind so early in the season. They need their
starter, he’s their linchpin, and there is no replacing Curt Schilling in the Red Sox’
rotation. Plus, he’s approaching what – 53? – and as we know from Barry Bonds, the
elderly ballplayers need a long time to rehab from these kinds of serious injuries.
Dog: Are ya done?
Jay: No. Mariano Rivera succumbing to injury would be a tremendous blow to the team,
no doubt. But in that worst case scenario, they have other players who could step in to
close. They do have Tom Gordon, who used to be the Red Sox closer in the day. It’s
easier to replace a closer with someone in your bullpen than it is to replace an ace. Sorry,
but Byung-Hyun Kim won’t do it for you guys if Curt goes down…
Dog: First of all, the Sox knew they would be without Schilling for at least some party of
the early season.
Jay: So you’re saying they brought in Matt Clement, Wade Miller, and David Wells to
make up for three weeks of Schilling’s lost starts?
Dog: Well, no, they brought in starters to replace lost starters like Pedro and Lowe. But
they did acquire guys like John Halama to fill in as role pitchers if necessary.
Jay: Now there is a big-time pickup. John Halama, owner of a career era of almost five.
This guy gave up a home run to Jason Giambi already in spring training. What does that
tell you about John Halama? The guy’s a bum.
Dog: Well this isn’t even really an issue because the doctors have guaranteed that
Schilling’s ankle is healthy and he’ll play a lot this season. They say it’s in extremely
good shape.
Jay: Of course they’re going to tell you his ankle is in great shape! But it’s not. If it
were in great shape, then he’d be ready to go by April 3.
Dog: It’s just that he is behind in his rehab. They say his ankle and his legs and his arm
are all healthy and he’s strong enough to go. He just has to finish his rehab. The guy had
rainouts interfere with his work in Florida, then he had the flu…
Jay: Sound like an old geezer to me. Ohhh, it rained, can’t do my workouts!
Dog: …and he had to deal with having to testify before Congress about steroids.
Jay: That was after he missed two training sessions because he was too busy filling out
the paperwork for his AARP application.
Dog: Are you really going to bring in the age issue here?
Jay: Sure, if it relates to Curt Schilling’s effectiveness as a power pitcher recovering
from a leg/foot issue. Listen, I’m not about to deny that Randy Johnson is even old than
Schilling, but the difference is Schilling’s recovering from major ankle surgery, while the
Big Unit is not.
Dog: Your team is almost as old as the Giants.
Jay: Sure is, but they’re not recovering from ankle surgery. The only player who had
major off-season surgery was Gary Sheffield on that left shoulder. And he’s ready to go,
unlike your boy Curt. And we’re still going to kick your ass. Point: Jay.
Fourth topic – Which tandem will have a better season – Pavano & Wright or Wells &
Clement?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Jay: Well Clement has control issues, and Wells has booze issues. Neither sounds great
to me.
Dog: Wells does not have booze issues! When was there a problem with his alcohol use?
Jay: It’s that he parties and drinks…a lot. Check out that gut dude. He can’t get away
with that stuff at almost forty. Plus, who knows how Wells will get up to play against his
former team, the team of legends who he idolizes.
Dog: Let’s talk about consistency, shall we? How many good years has Carl Pavano had
compared to Wells?
Jay: Well Pavano is almost young enough to be Wells’ son, so I’m not sure that is a fair
question.
Dog: Anyway, how many good years has he had?
Jay: I’d say three.
Dog: I’d say more like one and a half.
Jay: Well your point is still absurd. Using that point, we as Yankee fans could say –
“Hey, let’s grab David Cone out of retirement and put him back in pinstripes! Then look
at how many more qualities years he has versus Wade Miller! Booo-yah, Red Sox suck,
look at Yankee Nation, we’re such idiots, bahhhhh!” Point is, Cone would still be old,
just like Wells. Pavano has a considerably larger upside in the long-term than Wells.
Dog: That’s not where I’m going with this. Pavano’s had a couple of good years. How
many solid years has Wright had? He’s been in the league for how long – eight years –
and had how many good seasons?
Jay: Well he had 1997, 1998, and last year. And he was great in the ’97 World Series.
Dog: He was only good in Atlanta because of his pitching coach, Leo Mizzone.
Jay: I refuse to believe the guy went 15-8 with an ERA of just over three because he had
some smart guy sitting on the bench. Was Leo throwing those K’s?
Dog: Leo Mizzone can make almost anyone a Cy Young winner.
Jay: Then he dropped the ball on Kevin Millwood, except for one year a couple of years
ago. And don’t give me this Butch Harmon crap. You can’t teach someone how to win
20 games. And back to our point – I’d rather take Pavano and Wright at the peak of their
careers over a tandem with Wells, and Clement with his control issues.
Dog: Clement does not have control issues, he has confidence issues.
Jay: Yup, those are much better issues to have. By the way, isn’t Wells a lefty breakingball pitcher now pitching in Fenway. What happens when old breaking ball pitchers start
to hang their pitches to a right handed batter in Fenway. Oh yeah, home runs and doubles
off the Monster.
Dog: I’d take Wells over Jaret Wright any day. Are you going to justify Wright at three
years, $21 million?
Jay: This isn’t about contracts.
Dog: That’s right it’s about consistency. And I can bring in anything I want.
Jay: Ugh….idiot!
Dog: That’s right, the Red Sox baby, World Champion idiots!
Jay: David Wells is not going to be able to carry the load. Maybe ten years ago, but not
now.
Dog: Are you kidding? He was great last year with the Padres.
Jay: Wells was the veteran and the number one starter in their rotation. And he’s not
going to be able to carry this team to another World Series. It’s the way I feel. I’m just
glad we got Pavano instead of pursuing him any further.
Dog: You’re just a joke. Wells was not the only good pitcher on the Padres. Peavy
would have won even more than 13 games had he not gotten injured. You know what,
I’m done. I’m just done. Next time I’m going to bring in more numbers and throw them
in your face! – Point Dog
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Final topic – who won the battle this off-season? A-Rod or the Red Sox?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dog: Don’t you mean A-Fraud?
Jay: No, I mean A-Rod. The guy is earning $252 million over 10 years, which I agree, is
an absurd sum of money, but the guy is an absurdly talented player and works hard for it.
He’s up early training, and he walks into spring training in top shape. Even Curt
Schilling admitted it, the guy is a physical freak of nature. No steroids, no supplements,
just speed and power. Great defensively too. I mean, he’s courteous to his coaches, his
owner, and most importantly, his fellow teammates. He speak to the media, signs
autographs, and smiles while doing all of it. He’s the dream superstar – fantastic
numbers, team player, well-spoken, and unselfish. Maybe he got caught up a little bit in
the playoff intensity and tried to knock a ball out of Arroyo’s glove. But so what – in the
heat of the moment like that, any major leaguer who hungers after winning would have
done the same. He’s a model superstar, and I think the Red Sox still get jealous and wish
he were in Boston. They ganged up on him, and it was unprofessional of them to do so.
Dog: Come on Jay, you’re making it too easy for me. If you’re just setting me up to
knock you down, then that’s okay. Do you mean to tell me he never fights with his
manager? Ask Buck Showalter about that.
Jay: Joe Torre manages in New York, not Buck. Who cares about his relationship with
Showalter – he gets along with Joe and the Yankees. That is not a point.
Dog: The guy was begging to get out of Texas and fought with his manager and
management to do it.
Jay: He only partly wanted out of Texas. They also wanted him out so they didn’t have
to pay all of $25 million per year. They wanted to develop younger, cheaper talent like
the guys they have now – Blalock, Teixeira, Young, Soriano. So he partly left, mostly
was traded by his GM.
Dog: He lobbied to get out! Texas is still paying a lot to have him play for the Yankees.
Jay: Last year he didn’t complain one bit on the team, and was a consummate clubhouse
contributor. He’s such a man he didn’t even need the help from his teammates. He took
it strongly and didn’t let it faze him. He let the Red Sox look like immature jerks for
taking cheap shots through the media. They took their turns bashing it, and he acted like
a professional. You can’t justify the Red Sox behavior.
Dog: The Yankee teammates did not want to support him, for one thing.
Jay: No, it’s not that they didn’t want to support him, but they are too much a group of
professionals to sink to the Red Sox level of taking cheap shots through the press. They
let him deal with his own issues – which he did – and let the words slide. They let their
play do the talking.
Dog: Anyway, I’m kind of scared that A-Rod is having a kid. He’s a deadbeat father!
He’s already proven that he’s going to be. He’s already said that he’s not taking his kids
to school. That’s fine, whatever, but don’t bash other players for being good parents.
Jay: He didn’t bash other players for being good parents. He only discussed what he
does in the off-season and how is proud of his work ethic and training regiment. If the
Red Sox players took that as an implication of how they spend their time – driving kids to
school – as an insult to their lack of training, then they have a right to do that. And as far
as being labeled a deadbeat for not driving kids to school, then I guess I’d have to call my
dear old dad a deadbeat then. My mother was the one in charge of the carpool. POINT –
JAY.
Dog: The guy’s a deadbeat father, I don’t care what you say. And I’m gonna crack up
one day if they find out he used steroids.
Jay: Are you kidding. Does the guy LOOK like he’s on steroids? He doesn’t have 26”
Mark McGwire biceps. He’s 6’3” 225. Steroids generally don’t give these types of
40/40 guys.
Dog: Okay, I don’t think he’s on steroids, but I’d still crack up if he were. But when he
took a shot at the Red Sox, they shot back, big deal.
Jay: He didn’t shoot at the Red Sox! He said something which Red Sox players eked
their way into inferring was a criticism of their inability to train at his level. That is a
stretch of a “media shot” if I’ve ever heard one. Much more subtle than “deadbeat dad” –
wouldn’t you say?
Dog: The guy’s a cheater!
Jay: Oh, please. Jose Canseco is a cheater. Mark McGwire is a cheater. I believe that
Barry Bonds is a cheater. A-Rod does not cheat – he’s legitimate. And was it necessary
for the entire Red Sox team to attack him?
Dog: Well at least when the Red Sox do something, they do it as a team. The Yankees
didn’t defend A-Rod when they should have.
Jay: If your whole family took out some guns and started to shoot up a restaurant, would
do it? Would it be right? Of course not. Just because it’s what your group is doing does
not mean it’s what they should be doing. The Yankees decided that as a ballclub, it
would not get involved in this player-bashing through the press. They decided they are
better than that, and they’d let the Red Sox talk themselves into truly earning the “idiots”
label.
Dog: What are you talking about, guns? That’s it, you’ve lost the right to speak. Done.
Jay: It was a good analogy! Would you rather have me use the boring old “if everyone
you know jumped off the George Washington Bridge, would you follow” example? At
least this one was flashy. Good dueling with you, Dog
Doug: We’re doing this again next month. Until we meet again…for Jay Hyne and
Bryan Steinkohl, this has been Pardon the Interruption, Yankee/Red Sox style –
goodnight!