John M. Dudley
Pokey Dam & Commercial Fisheries
1984
(Names and other words that could not be transcribed exactly are in italics. Unknown voices are
referred to as “man” or “woman.” Comments, explanations, and additional names are in parentheses.)
John Dudley: - - - with Pokomoonshine Lake and Pokey Dam has extended over a long period of time.
I first saw Pokomoonshine Lake in 1909. I have been closely connected with it ever since. I cannot
tell you when the original river driving dam - I’ll call Pokey Dam - was built - perhaps 150 years ago.
Springer, writing in 1851 describes Pokomoonshine Lake, then called Shining Lake. The Eastern
Stream - East Machias River - is about 50 miles long including the small lake which constitutes its
source. That would be Pokomoonshine. As the lake which feeds the river is fed primarily by springs,
it affords a good supply of water year round. That quotation is taken from page 158, “Forest Life and
Forest Trees” by Thomas Springer. A further quote from Springer, page 186. This is in the town of
East Machias records which was supplied to Springer by Deacon Talbot. The number of sawmills was
17. The number of log machines, 11. The amount of long lumber sawed 10, 200,000 board feet. The
number of (indistinct word) 13, 200,000. The number of men employed in the lumber industry, 450.
The number of oxen and horses used, 380. These figures recorded in 1851 indicate that there was a
thriving lumber industry at that time in East Machias and probably for several years before. The logs
for these mills were driven down the East Machias River and a dam would have been a necessary part
of the operations. Now in the old days, this would be prior to 1925 or 6, Pokomoonshine Lake - no this
would be prior to 18 - prior to the 1890s - Pokomoonshine Lake contained white perch and square
tailed trout. In about the 1890s, Fred Harriman and Frank Averil brought over from Big Lake in barrels
pickerel with a team - a pair of horses and released them in Pokomoonshine Lake. Prior to this there
was no pickerel in these waters. They were commercial fishermen. There were no laws preventing this
and there was a market for pickerel. I can remember when there were five or six people who fished
pickerel here commercially. At times, six to seven half - hundred pounds were shipped weekly. There
was an ice house then. Fish were packed in ice in wooden boxes, taken to Woodland by team and
shipped by rail to Boston. Fish shipped out of Woodland in the afternoon were in the Boston markets
the next day. Better than you can do today. In about 1925, the old river driving dam went out. Bangor
Hydro-Electric who had a generating plant in East Machias became interested in it. This corporation
built a storage dam on the site which held the water three feet higher than the present dam. This dam
had gates. These gates were opened and closed at the will of Bangor-Hydro. The water level changed
without notice. There were problems. The gates were removed by persons unknown and thrown
overboard. The chains were removed. Finally one day the gates were opened without notice and the
meadow hay which had been cut and stacked in the great meadow down river was washed down river.
Then in about 1934, the dam was soaked with kerosene and burned to the water level. This so
weakened it that at the next freshet the dam went out. This put the water level down to the bedlog of
the original dam. That’s the old river driving dam. Smallmouth bass which had been in the river
below Pokey Dam for many years came into Crawford Lake and very quickly spread out over the entire
area above the dam. The bass took over. Pickerel and white perch declined in numbers and the trout
were wiped out. Now the bass have leveled off. Pickerel and white perch have regained some ground
but the trout are gone. As above mentioned, the old river driving dam went out in about 1925. This
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dam was used to store water for the drive of logs down the East Machias River. In the spring the water
in Pokomoonshine Lake was six feet higher than is held by the present dam. In the spring the gates
were opened and the water took the drive down. The last drive from Pokey Dam was in 1919. This
information was give to me by the man who took the drive down. That was Harvey Hayward. You
remember Harvey.
Man: Um hum.
John Dudley: In 1919 they cut logs - I don’t know where they were cut but they were cut above the
dam. It could have been down in the Crawford area, Mud Lake area, Pokomoonshine area, Cathance
Stream. It was one of those winters we didn’t get any snow - didn’t get any big rain in the spring and
they were shy on water. They started the drive, whoever had charge of it, and they got the drive part of
the way or a third of the way - part way down - logs - logs everywhere in the (indistinct word) they
didn’t have enough water. The fellow gave up and they came to Harvey - the people - I presume it was
Talbots, who had the mill down there (indistinct words) They went to Harvey Hayward and asked him
if he could bring it down. And, Harvey said he would look it over and think about and he told them he said “yes, I think I can.” And, they agreed on the price if he could do it. And, Harvey told me that
in his memory at that time that with a spring and winter like that with no great amount of snow - no
great amount of water - usually you would get an awful wet June. You’d get rain come up (indistinct
words) So he closed the gates in the dam and in June she started to rain and in a week or so or two he
had the water clean to the top of the dam. Then he opened her up and he took every - picked up a crew
and went right straight down and picked up the logs as they went down through and put them back in
and he was successful and he took the thing down - down to the mill. In 1936, a small group of local
people including myself felt that it would benefit the area above the dam if a low roll dam was built to
maintain the water at a stabilized level. We obtained permission from the landowner, and examined
the proper height for the dam. Money was provided by a few interested people to buy the material. I
think that (indistinct words) and Bob Pond down here provided most of it - the money. The work was
volunteered by a few local residents. Charlie Woodruff, Conrad Woodruff, Frank Magoon and a few
others including myself. The logs for the dam and the crib work was salvaged from the bottom of Poko
- Crawford Lake. Those logs were the result of a Diamond Match operation on the westward side of
the Crawford Lake. They cut the logs in the winter and they dragged them out to the shore of the lake
over there where there’s a little cove - put them in there and put a boom around them. And, left them
there until the next - until the spring (indistinct word) and the ice went out. And then they used the
capstan raft to pull that boom of logs across the lake. They towed that boom of logs across the lake
into the vicinity where the old baptismal landing was there and they put up a portable saw mill there
and they sawed the stuff up into (indisctint words) made into - manufactured matches.
Man: Um hum. What’s a capstan raft?
John Dudley: A capstan raft is a raft made out of logs probably - they come in various sizes - but that
one was probably 50 feet wide and probably 25 feet long. And, in the center of it was a capstan - it was
something like a barrel standing on end with a rope attached. And, then there are poles stuck into and
the men walk right around - a couple men on each pole walk around and winds that rope up.
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Man: They hooked the rope on one side of the lake and - - John Dudley: And, the rope is attached - they use a long rope and the rope has a big anchor. They
unwind the rope and push or pole the raft or paddle it and get it out just as far as they can at the end of
that rope. Then they drop the anchor. Probably take the anchor out in a - in a bateau. So here’s your
anchor out here and the rope attached to it and two or three hundred feet in here is the capstan raft. No,
the capstan raft is out here and then they hook the rope onto the boom and then walk around and they
pull the boom up to where the raft is, and then they repeat the process. Of course they can only do it
when there’s no wind or they have a fair wind. The wind is behind them. If they try to go into the
wind, they’d never move it. But that’s the way they towed the logs in the old days and of course they
did that on other lakes. And, then of course later on they got - they got boats with engines - steam
engines in them - tow boats. They towed them with boats. Before that it was the old capstan raft.
Man: Hum.
John Dudley: And of course (indistinct word) boom of logs anywhere. Some time, why a certain
amount of them, of course, sunk. Those were the ones that we got. They were in probably four or five
feet of water, no more than that. But, the old capstan raft was still down there and we used that but the
capstan was gone off it. (Indistinct words) Just the raft itself. We used that and then we’d take a - take
a pole and drive it down in the logs and lift a log. They hadn’t set there long enough to be embedded in
the mud so there was no suction. Get a hold on the end and get it up - one end up to the - where the
raft was and then a couple of us would grab a hold of that end with peaveys - one on each side - get the
nose up onto the raft - slide her right up on. It would be all greasy. And, we’d put on four, five or six as many as we could without getting - so the raft wouldn’t sink. And, then we’d have the old wildcat I doubt you remember the old wildcat, or not - the old motor boat. We had that down there. And, then
we would tow the raft out to the dam. Unload the logs and go back and get another load. And, we did
the same thing. That’s the way we got the - after we got the crib work built, that’s the same thing we
used - that raft and the boat to get the rocks to put in it. So, there’s a rocky island just about at the
mouth of the river. (Indistinct words) pretty close to a half mile from where the dam site is. But, it
was a good spot. The rocks were just the right size. They were small enough so we could handle them
yet they were big enough (indistinct words). And, we’d go up there and we would load rocks on her
until she was practically ready to sink. We’d tow that down - bring it right up to - to the dam and toss
them on. Bring them down that way. That’s where all that stuff came from. That was all done by
hand. There wasn’t even - we didn’t even have a chain saws at that time. All the logs and the rocks
were taken down on the old capstan raft which was also a relic of the Diamond Match operation.
During the lifetime of this dam, wildlife flourished. The water level was constantly monitored. I held
the eel trapping permit during the 20 - 25 years this dam lasted. The person who actually did the eel
trapping during this period maintained the dam with the help of some material provided by benefactors.
More important, we maintained the water level that was best for the wildlife. One of the people who who contributed to that and later on - I’m not going to (indistinct words) our material (indistinct words)
down there was the old Eastern Pulp Wood Company. Walter Cobb was the head of it then. And the
reason they were willing to contribute was because they owned a lot of land up here even at that time.
Of course they owned more later on. They owned quite a lot of land and they felt that have - having
that dam in there and maintaining the water level the way we were doing it - on all the area from the
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foot of Pokomoonshine Lake right straight down through where you have - used to have meadows,
where it is now marsh - having that marsh (indistinct words) increases the water prospects - is a
wonderful fire break.
Man: Hum.
John Dudley: If the dam hadn’t been rebuilt, instead of having marshes there, you would have had
meadows. And, in the late fall, it would be burned just like any hay field. Fire would go right across it.
But, with the water on it, we have a fire break down there anywhere from a quarter of a mile - some
places a half mile wide.
Man: Yes.
John Dudley: It made a wonderful fire break. Before the - before the - well it actually started when
Bangor Hydro had their dam. The edges changed. Of course we didn’t have real good marshes
because Bangor had the water up two three feet over the marshes. You could go right across anywhere
down through there with a motor - (indistinct words) outboard motor or with a motorboat - cut right
from corner to corner. Water (indistinct words) And, then of course when we built the dam in the 30s
and kept the water back down where it was supposed to be - (indistinct word) get rid of some of that
(indistinct word) we had marshes and you had the problem of limitation came up - come up. If you
surveyed the area - much better water fowl area. Much better for the musquash and so on and so forth.
In the days back when they had the river drives down there, they opened the dam in the spring, the
water would all go out and the dam would stay open right down to the bed log which was - of course
would raise the water maybe eight or ten inches above the original level. But in those days as soon as
the drive was over - the water was down and the meadow hay - native meadow hay grew in those
meadows and they used to cut those meadows by hand, stack it in stacks and the hay they got was what
was used in the logging operations in the winter. Charlie Cousins up here remembers it - remembers
going down there and mowing meadow hay. They - they - and they fed it to the cattle, the oxen, horses
- they sprinkled a little bit of salt on it - made it apparently a little better tasting for them. It wasn’t as
good hay as the so-called English hay. (Indistinct words) That’s the reason you had all those big farms
up there on the - especially up on the head waters of the Penobscot. There was an article about the old
Grant farm in the Bangor paper here not too long ago. Those fellows went up in there and they cleared
it and then they planted it - hay for use in their logging operations. By the time they were doing that up
there - they could have - they could have started out with oxen. Probably they did start out but later on
it was all horses and they took it - way up in there it was much easier and simpler to have the hay
available right there than to have to cart it in from somewhere. It was so far back in there - so remote.
You have the same thing in Canada. Now in the mid ‘50s, the dam that we built in the mid ‘30s wore
out - old age. It was a log dam. They last just so long. The costs had gone up. No volunteers were
left. All the volunteers that were left were either too old or dead. Right now, a lot of people have
heard of Pokey Dam and whatnot, but Pokey Dam is about one mile from the Airline Road. There was
an old woods road that went in to it - same location as the present one, but it was - the only way was
you could walk on it in and out - and the only other thing you could get in there would be a high body
truck wagon and a pair of horses. You couldn’t drive an automobile or a truck in there. Rocks, stones,
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miserable thing. (Indistinct word) But, today you can drive an automobile in there. Now, in the mid
‘30s - no, the mid ‘50s, the old dam was gone, why we started an election to get it fixed up because we
couldn’t do it locally as I said it would cost a lot. We just didn’t raise the money or anything else. At
that time I contacted the U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service, the Wildlife Management Institute and the
Maine Fish and Game Department. And representatives from all of them came up here and they
inspected the dam site and they - we took them down to it and showed them the whole area, the whole
watershed above the dam. And, finally the Maine Fish and Game Department decided that they would
be willing to go ahead and do it and make a wildlife management area out of it. And, I made
arrangements to get a lease from the land owner which I didn’t know whether I’d get or not but I had
some help on that. DeMerrit was his name. I can’t remember his first name right off, but his last name
was DeMerrit and he was a brother of Del Taylor’s wife, and he was very influential in all - he was a
kind of consultant and he was very influential in all the paper companies in the State of Maine. He was
a good man to have - to know in something like this, and through him we were able to get a lease - or
the Maine Fish and Game Department got a lease -a 20 year lease - 25 year and they rebuilt the dam.
The first thing that they did was bring in a bulldozer and they bulldozed the road out and fixed up the
road so you could take a crew and drive right in there. Take equipment and stuff in. And so they built
the dam and that lasted up until a couple of years ago - three years ago it started to go to pieces and by
this time the ownership of the surrounding land had changed and it was in Georgia Pacific. The lease
expired. The Maine Fish and Game Department was practically bankrupt and looking for everything
they could to get rid of, so they got rid of it. They said, “We don’t want anything to do with it. We
don’t have any money and we - we just can’t keep it up.” And, Georgia Pacific said, “Well, we are not
interested in maintaining that dam there. We don’t care if the dam stays there or goes out.” So, they
had a hassle on it there what was going to happen and made a big issue out of it - a lot of people who
never - before that never showed any interest in it. I didn’t show any. I - I wasn’t going to do it any
more. I - I had it - I’d been running things practically for 50 years. I decided I didn’t want it now.
Well, anyway a year ago, I think 1983, Georgia Pacific said that they would give the property - the dam
site to any group or organized corporation that wanted to build a dam there and maintain it, well, they’d
- they’d sign the papers and go ahead with it. So, they formed this Pocomoon - Crawford
Pocomoonshine Water Shed Association and they are the ones now who own the dam site for the dam.
In 1983 Georgia Pacific supplied the material and the State of Maine Fish and Game Department
supplied the labor and the engineers and they rebuilt the easterly end of the dam which included the
fish way. The fish way was completely gone. For the last - a year or so there they didn’t get any
alewives. For that matter they didn’t have any this year. (Indistinct words) there weren’t any bass
around. (Indistinct words) this year I saw one school (indistinct words)
(Recording stopped - long blank space at end of side A and at the beginning of side B- and resumed on
side B)
John Dudley: All ready?
Man: All ready.
John Dudley: Well, with the easterly end there fixed up, this middle part of the dam was pretty well
gone. The apron was below the dam where the water came over and down on it, the apron was
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completely gone. Planks all gone. The water come over there when she was high and she come down
into there and she’d pick up those little rocks (indistinct words) If the apron was out of there it
wouldn’t happen. The water would come down and run off. Well, this last summer, they decided they
were going to - the association decided they were going to try to repair the rest of it. And, all during
the spring and summer the water was way up over everything - couldn’t do it. Then she - rain stopped.
We didn’t get any rain - became very dry. It dried up during the summer and fall was very dry and
they went down in there - volunteer labor as I understand it - it was expensive - there were only as far
as I know Thomas Lord, Don Ketner did most of the work. They removed all the old planking left on
the top of the dam. The logs underneath were still sound. They got Lynn Lawless who was clearing
blueberry ground of rocks - had a truck with one of these grapplers on it - and Lynn carried rocks down
there - drove right in - rocked up all the way across the front - rocked up across the lower part - both
sides of the dam - big rocks - boulders and such. They filled in the dam part itself with more rocks and
then they put up forms and they had Goding Concrete Company into Woodland - Baileyville - they
came out - I do not remember how many cubic yards of concrete they poured into that dam. They
loaded that dam all the way across the sluiceway clear over to the westerly end and the little section
between the sluiceway and the fish way. And they - they had - Tim Sandford was down one day - the
last day they worked there they had Tim. Tim went down. And, now they have a solid slab of concrete
which has run down into - under the rocks all the way across there. Presumably - apparently it’s tight
and will stay there for a long, long time and it’s the same height as the old one so it should work out
fairly well. There was on the old dam - I mean, the one that was there before this last work was done the fellow that was trapping eels there put a rack on the top of the dam to keep the eels from going
over. The only trouble is he left if there year round. If he had put it up in July and kept it up there
while the eels were running and then removed it, it would have been all right. He left it right there and
of course that added - raised the height of the probably about four or five inches which he shouldn’t
have been allowed to do. Our situation has changed an awful lot of course over the years. The water
traffic on the river and on these lakes has increased greatly. As for wildlife, not only do they need a
stabilized water level, but also a minimum of human interference especially during the nesting and root
seasons. The present dam down there should last for a good many years. And, the only thing that
remains to be done to it is to get some kind of machinery there. It doesn’t have to be fancy stuff. They
probably can pick it up in to Woodland at the junk yard in there. They’ve got to get some kind of
arrangement with a cog that they can put poles into so if the water is high and you get excessive rains
in the spring and you want to get the water down, you want to open the gates in that sluiceway - be able
to open it. All there is in it now is three or four, five pieces of plank in there. When that water gets
against them, you can’t move them by hand. You’ve got to have a piece of machinery to do it. And,
they plan to do that this coming summer - next summer they plan to fix that so that the gates can be
manipulated. The dam that we put in in 1935 or about then - the mid 30s did not have any sluice in it.
It did not have any fish way. It obstructed fish. We knew a fish way was necessary. We didn’t put any
sluiceway in it or any gate because we figured if there was a gate in there and that place was in there
isolated and you’re going to get some people in there and they’re going to either close the gates or
they’re going to open them It was nothing but a roll dam. There was nothing you could remove or
tamper with to change the water level. And over on the westerly end, we rocked that in over there
between the pier and the bank - rocked that up and we had just a natural water passage down through
those rocks which the fish could go right up through and down through (indistinct words) And, I
suppose the reason they put the sluiceway in there in 19 - mid 50s is because that is before the law was
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changed. Prior to that and at that time the lumber companies were still using the rivers and lakes to
transport four foot pulp wood and also short logs - long logs. And probably there was an
understanding or maybe a law that you could not construct a dam unless you provided a sluiceway or
something in it so if people wanted to send logs down through there would be an opportunity to do it.
Now, of course later on they changed it - they no longer now drive logs or pulpwood even on the rivers
or on the lakes which is illegal. Illegal. I wanted to take a couple logs over to the point here three or
four years ago to rebuild that wharf over there and I wrote in to the department about it. Said I’ve got a
couple of cedars down here and I want to tow them across and - just a temporary wharf over there I use
- doesn’t amount to anything. We can’t give you permission to do it. But, if you do it after dark and
no one sees you, why (laughter) it wouldn’t be difficult. You’re not allowed to put anything in there.
Not supposed to legally. Now, there’s a few places where you still see it but I assume they probably
must be grandfather clauses or something like the mill up near Princeton. They don’t transport the logs
there by water but the logs are half stored right there in the St. Croix River.
Man: In the river.
John Dudley: Right in the river. Of course the reason they want to do that - logs that are in the water,
borers won’t go into them. These logs still have the bark on them and if they’re piled up on land the
minute the weather gets warmer the borers will start in on them and they’re going to ruin them. I mean
that they’re first class lumber.
Man: Yes.
John Dudley: It would be all right if you sort them out for second grade or third grade stuff - they’re
full - full of wood borers in there so the place to store logs in the mill yard is in the water. But, of
course they can create artificial ponds for that purpose, but of course I suppose it isn’t quite as
necessary now these days as it used to be because now they cut the stuff down in the morning and in
the afternoon it’s been sawed up. They don’t store the stuff ahead the way they used to, but of course
the transportation is all by truck. The water level here of course is extremely important to certain birds.
Loons for instance, they need a stabilized level, or they - it works out best if they have a stabilized
level. The same with ring-necks - the type of ring-necked ducks. You take the places they nest, the
water has to be just about right or they will simply wait until the water goes down. That’s what
happened last summer. If they wait too long, especially the loons, they’re not going to get past - get so
they can fly before the lake freezes over. Of course the ducks - it’s a different proposition because
inside six weeks they can fly. But, loons can’t.
Man: You mentioned the present dam, the new dam, is the right height for water life, water fowl, but
there is a problem with - with fish traffic - boat traffic.
John Dudley: Right.
Man: Do you suppose that artificial waterways could be created in places on the marshes down
through there like they did in Maguerrewoc and at Barton Meadow by blasting and making the making artificial waterways that would be - wouldn’t connect to the river so that people with boats
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couldn’t go in them but they could be used for - for the ducks and their young
John Dudley: They could be. That has worked out very nicely. The - the particular habitat that the
ducks - certain types of ducks - ring-necks (indistinct word) - is along the edges and when you have a
large marsh - solid marsh with no waterways going through it, the area that is good nesting cover
doesn’t exist. By creating a series of channels by blasting you’re creating every one of them - on both
sides, you’re creating an edge where the birds can swim in - swim where the nest sight is and get up on
the nest. Of course as far as brood cover, why it isn’t necessary because if you have sufficient water in
there - the females - a solid marsh - the brood cover as long as there’s sufficient water, why the babies
can get out whenever - the idea then is to create more nests - more areas good for nesting.
Man: Yes.
John Dudley: And, of course loons generally don’t nest in the marshes. You occasionally will find a
loon nesting at the edge of the marshes - where the marsh is on the shore of a lake - not on a river, not
on a thoroughfare (indistinct words) I have found - I have never found a loon’s nest on this river
anywhere.
Man: Mud Lake.
John Dudley: I have found them in Mud Lake - both Upper Mud and Lower Mud - in Crawford Lake
and in Pokomoonshine, but not up in - of course your black ducks, they are - some of them nest in the
marshes - the black ducks primarily - most of them nest in the woods. They’ll follow up a brook or
beaver pond, like that. I found a nest - I can remember one nest down there on the Maguerrewoc that
was almost at the top of Maguerrewoc Mountain.
Man: Hum.
John Dudley: Way up. Way, way, way up.
Man: Well, the other - another set of wildlife in the lake is the fish and you mentioned change from
the trout to the pickerel and the perch. But, did you ever catch trout out here?
John Dudley: Used to be - when we used to go out here ice fishing in the winter and you’d catch
probably one trout a day.
Man: What size?
John Dudley: They were big ones. I can remember one caught right in front of the camp that went six
pounds.
Man: Wow.
John Dudley: (Indistinct words) And, you could go up - I can remember going up there and trolling in
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Deep Cove - perch (indistinct words) back and forth there where that deep hole is there. And, you
could go up there and pick up one or two trout. Trolling in the aft - trolling - going down deep beautiful fish. Of course, the brooks that came in - Dog Brook up here for instance - Louis Brook they were all good trout streams. But, once the - the combination of the higher water level and then the
bass coming in. Of course the bass would run right up them. And, of course the pickerel didn’t
improve the trout fishing any. Originally, you see, it was just the white perch and trout. The pickerel,
of course, they’re very aggressive. They clean up a lot of (indistinct word) but the trout did survive up
until the black bass got in.
Man: Hum. When they were catching those pickerel - Fred Harriman and that - that bunch - what
would be the size of those that they were catching?
John Dudley: Oh those fish - the ones they shipped - I suppose they threw the small ones back - the
ones they shipped would go probably - run from about a pound and a half up to three and four pounds.
About this length up to this length.
Man: 20 to 30 inches - in that range.
John Dudley: Yes, oh, they were nice fish. And, of course, when they went out fishing, they had a box
in the canoe which had a hunk of ice in it and the minute those fish came out of the water, they went
right onto the ice.
Man: They cleaned them on the lake or they cleaned them on the shore?
John Dudley: They were not cleaned.
Man: They - they shipped them with the guts in them.
John Dudley: Yes. They were - they brought them in at night when they came back and they would
take the fish from the box in the canoe - wipe it off and they would put the thing right down here and
squeeze it right straight down through just as if you was taking out the eggs - - Man: Yes.
John Dudley: - - - from the fish - squeezing everything out of the intestines, and then they’d put them
in another little box about so long which had a rope on it and when they got that box filled up - they
had a set of these old balance scales, you know - move the thing back and forth - hung up there - you
remember those and they’d weigh them and they kept a record and then they would take them out of
that and they had a box there which was, oh, approximately - must have been six feet long and three
feet high and three feet wide. In that was - put in a layer - start at the bottom and put in a layer of
chipped ice (indistinct words) half and half (indistinct words) - put in a layer of ice and then they’d
pack those fish right in there just like - right in just like sardines - the way they pack sardines in a can.
When they got a layer in - another layer of ice. Another layer of fish and then when they got the box
filled in (indistinct words) when the time was right they’d come over and bring a horse and wagon - a
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horse and team over from the old house down here - come in and come right down through my yard that’s one of the things that’s in the deed - still in the deed reserving the right to Fred Harriman - just
Fred - not his heirs and assigns, but just to Fred - the right to use that road. That was the only access good access to get down there to where Fred was fishing.
Man: Um-hum.
John Dudley: They come down in there - they’d drive the whole horse and the wagon right out into the
lake - out where that flat rock is down there - about four, five foot - three foot long, a couple feet wide,
and go down - go out around by the fish house around in there and then they’d load the - pack the fish
out and pack them in boxes about - oh, the boxes were about - about so big - wooden boxes. They’d
pack them in those. New ice, more ice. They’d be - down there where it came out of the lake - they
were in ice until they got in boxes. Then they’d load those on that wagon and go across the end into
Woodland.
Man: How much of the year would they do that?
John Dudley: Frankly, I don’t know, but it was done all the - it was done probably - from my memory,
I would say it probably started in about June and went through to October. (Indistinct words) maybe
four months. (Indistinct words) didn’t fish in the winter (indistinct words) I remember that activity was
during the summer. The reason they went - drove the - I asked them why they drove the horse out there
in the water and they said it wasn’t the horse, it was the wheels. Of course that old wagon had wooden
wheels.
Man: Keep them tight.
John Dudley: Over here in the yard, they’d dry out and get loose - drive them into the water and the
water soaks them and tightens them up.
Man: Now the other commercial fishery on the - out on the lake is (indistinct word) is the eels. How
did - how did the eel fishery work?
John Dudley: Well, originally when it started - when we started down there, the material for the eel
pots was taken down to Crawford Lake in a canoe. We constructed the pots and put in the sluice
because the eels only run at night. They don’t run in the daytime. And, the eels went through and
when they - the run stopped - in those days the market was out of state and when the eels were sold
there was an arrangement made that somebody was to come with a truck and pick them up. And the
truck would come up and park out there on the Airline Road and those eels were put into barrels.
Man: These were still alive
John Dudley: They were still alive.
Man: Yes.
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John Dudley: The eels were simply put into barrels, the cover was put over them and they were loaded
on there to Haskins - Hawkins - Hawkins - boys from Wesley were the closest ones who had a team.
They had a big hard body truck wagon and a pair of horses and those were loaded on that and then
hauled up to the road and then loaded on the truck and shipped to Boston.
Man: When - what’s the - - John Dudley: Or New York, wherever they took them. But, of course by the time that was done it was
the - it was - it was Christmas trade. Just the time (indistinct words) and of course the weather was
cold so they didn’t even put ice in them. They kept all right.
Man: What was the season that they caught the eels?
John Dudley: The eels if I remember correctly and it’s still true - I think they probably about the - I
think they start running about the full moon in July. It’s better in August and - August and September
and then that’s the end of it. Two or three months. Those, of course, are all adult eels.
Man: Um-hum
John Dudley: Adult eels going out to salt water. Those eels never come back. They go down into
what they call the Sargasso Sea and then they - that’s where they spawn and it’s the young ones that
come back - little ones. Those eels going down - of course if the dam was there - I mean if they can’t
find an - find an obstruction and there’s no way to get around it or through it with water, they can go
right over land just like a snake for short distances. They had a hard time at first there because these
fellows would give them a check for the eels and then as soon as they got across the state line, they’d
stop payment on the check. I can remember several years there when they ended up - didn’t get a
nickel. It was an awful hard job trying to get it through their heads to do it on a cash basis only, no
checks. Now, of course, they - on the eels, they come up and they - I guess perhaps they come up even
earlier now. Now they have tank trucks which have a pump on them with air in the water and they just
load the live eels right into those. Yes. Those are the only - I guess the - I guess that’s the only
commercial fishing that’s left. If I - If I remember correctly, there’s no limit on pickerel now, but - at
least I don’t think there is. Maybe there is. And, I don’t think you’re allowed to sell them, now.
(Indistinct words)
Man: Was there any - any other commercial fishing on the lake - any - alewives of course down - way
down but no alewives fishing up here in this area.
John Dudley: I think that occasionally some people will go into the dam and dip a few for their own just for their own use.
Man: Yes.
John Dudley: But, of course down at East Machias, the town has what they call a fish committee. One
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of the old customs (indistinct word) the size of the alewives for sale. The fish committee has charge of
it but I don’t think the fish committee does actual dipping any more. I think they sell the permit or let
somebody else do it and they get a cut on it - pick up two or three thousand dollars a year - something
like that out of it. The town does. (Indistinct words) who does the actual dipping. There used to be a
good market for them, but - but I don’t - I think most of them now go into fertilizer or lobster bait.
Man: Yes. Bony.
John Dudley: Yes. They used to either dry them or pickle them or something and ship them down to
the West Indies, but I don’t care for them.
Man: Do - do you remember - ever remember of any commercial hunting - yes we - we know that
there’s still some trapping of fur animals out and around - beaver and muskrat, but any commercial
hunting - commercial hunting of deer - legal commercial hunting of deer out here in this particular
area?
John Dudley: No, not anything legal. That is, to use for practical you could call commercial. I do
know that back here not too many years ago, they used to have fellows - - END OF TAPE
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