TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
INDEPENDENT BROAD-BASED ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION
MELBOURNE
TUESDAY 28 APRIL 2015 AT 10.02 AM
(2nd day of examinations)
MR STEPHEN O’BRYAN, Commissioner
MR IAN HILL QC, Counsel Assisting
OPERATION ORD INVESTIGATION
PUBLIC EXAMINATIONS PURSUANT TO PART 6 OF THE INDEPENDENT
BROAD-BASED ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION ACT 2011
AUSCRIPT
UNCLASSIFIED
1
JEFFREY ROSEWARNE, ON FORMER OATH
2
MR HILL:
3
There will be some further documents that will form a
bundle.
4
MR O'BRYAN:
5
MR HILL:
6
MR O'BRYAN:
7
Well, then - - -
Perhaps we can - - Well, then I will defer, but at the moment I’ve
got 136, 254, 306 and 307.
8
MR HILL:
9
MR O'BRYAN:
10
All right.
MR HILL:
That’s so.
All right.
Thank you.
And if we could have 306 on the screen, please.
11
Now, Mr Rosewarne, just to recap, yesterday we were
12
asking you some questions about a desk and shelves that
13
you purchased from Premier Office, or Office National,
14
which, having been purchased, was subsequently delivered
15
to your home.
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
Do you remember those questions?
I do.
And we have on the screen – I wonder if it could be
18
made slightly larger.
19
invoice that appears to have been attached to an email
20
sent from Richard Bell to you at the email address
21
swanslegend@hotmail.com.
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
MR HILL:
And we have on the screen a tax
Do you see all that?
I do.
And you received that email and that tax invoice?
I did.
And the email – the email says, in part at least:
26
Dear Jeffrey, attached is the invoice for printing you
27
required.
28
week and back from leave on Monday, 12 April.
29
know what suits you and Nino.
30
My question is, did Mr Bell know Nino Napoli?
I’m available until Thursday lunchtime next
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UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Let me
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
He did.
How did he know Nino Napoli?
He would have met Mr Napoli socially, and Mr
4
Bell in – in businesses that he worked for at various
5
times would have supplied the department with goods and
6
services over the years.
7
8
9
MR HILL:
Did – to your knowledge, did Mr Bell meet Mr Napoli
first, or did he meet you first?
MR ROSEWARNE:
10
MR HILL:
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
No, he would have met myself first.
All right.
And did you refer Mr Bell to Mr Napoli?
Unsure what you mean by “refer”.
Well, did you tell Mr Napoli that Mr Bell might be a
13
source that could be used to provide office furniture to
14
the department?
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
Well, prior to that, Mr Bell and the companies
16
he worked for would have supplied office supplies to – to
17
various parts of the department.
18
MR HILL:
Yes.
Yes.
Well, let’s just deal with my question.
Did
19
you refer Mr Bell and his company, Office National, to Mr
20
Napoli as someone suitable to do work for the department?
21
22
23
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
No.
Mr Bell, on this occasion, would have
dealt with myself.
MR HILL:
Yes.
But having dealt with you on this occasion,
did you make reference to the transaction to Mr Napoli?
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR HILL:
That transaction?
Yes.
Yes, indeed.
Right.
And did you tell Mr Napoli that Mr Bell was
29
someone that he, Mr Napoli, should be using to provide
30
office furniture?
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UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
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2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
I don’t recall making, or referring Mr Napoli
to Mr Bell in that way, no.
MR HILL:
Well, Mr Bell was very cooperative with you in your
purchase of the desk and shelves, wasn’t he?
MR ROSEWARNE:
He was.
He was – been a family friend for nigh
on 30 years so I knew Mr Bell well.
MR HILL:
He was prepared, at your instigation, to create an
invoice that was false, wasn’t he?
MR ROSEWARNE:
10
MR HILL:
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
Correct.
And you asked him to do that.
Indeed.
And you provided him with the details.
I don’t recall, but I would assume so.
Well, let’s look at page 307, please.
Yes.
You will see
15
here the actual invoice, and if you look under the
16
heading Description, you will see “design and graphic of
17
school publication, printing of school publication as per
18
specs”.
19
you told Mr Bell to use those words.
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
The likelihood is, I suggest, Mr Rosewarne, that
I agree.
Prior to the purchase of the desk and shelves for
22
your home, did you contact the principal at the Moonee
23
Ponds West Primary School to let him know that an invoice
24
would be soon arriving?
25
26
27
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MR ROSEWARNE:
I don’t recall whether I did that prior to the
purchase or after the purchase.
MR HILL:
Well, if you did it after the purchase, you would
have done it shortly after the purchase.
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
MR HILL:
Yes.
I would assume so, yes.
So that he would be aware that an invoice was
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UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
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coming.
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
6
Yes.
8
MR HILL:
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
Correct.
Tony Hilton.
10
MR HILL:
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
MR HILL:
Correct.
And he was a long-standing friend of yours.
No.
No?
No.
Was he a friend?
No.
Right.
Was he the person that you dealt with at
Moonee Ponds West Primary School regarding this invoice?
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
Yes.
So you didn’t deal with any other person at Moonee
Ponds West Primary School?
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
23
Correct.
West Primary School was a Mr Hilton.
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
So that he could pay it.
And the principal at that time of the Moonee Ponds
7
17
Correct.
No.
Did he, at some stage that year, leave the Moonee
Ponds West Primary School?
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
MR HILL:
I don’t have that information, I’m sorry.
All right.
Did you cause moneys from the department
26
to be transferred to the Moonee Ponds West Primary School
27
for payment of the desk and shelves?
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
I would have, yes.
When you say you would have, do you recall whether
you did that before or after the purchase?
148
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
No, I do not.
Presumably you did that at the time that you let Mr
3
Hilton know that an invoice from Office National was
4
going to be soon arriving at his school.
5
6
7
8
9
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
I agree.
I would assume I would have done it
either prior to or just after.
MR HILL:
Yes.
So Moonee Ponds West Primary School at that
stage was not a banker school?
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
I couldn’t answer that question.
Right.
This had nothing to do with the concept of
11
banker schools, your purchase of the desk and the way in
12
which it was funded.
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
15
Not as such, no.
Right.
And there were some problems encountered,
were there not, in the paying of this invoice for $4587?
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
I have no recollection of such.
Let us refresh your memory then.
Might the – sorry,
18
might page 348 be put on the screen.
19
scroll it down – I’m sorry, up.
20
email from Richard Bell of Premier Office National to
21
yourself, isn’t it?
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
24
This is an
It is.
swanslegend@hotmail.com.
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
Correct.
You, at this time, of course, had a Department of
Education email address.
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
Thank you.
We’ve already seen your private email address as
25
27
Could we just
Yes.
I did.
And the email says from Mr Bell to you:
Hi, Jeffrey, I was wondering if you could chase up that
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UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
payment for the invoice for goods to Moonee Ponds West
2
Primary School in March.
3
your friend leaving, I can credit it and recharge it to
4
another school.
5
6
your friend?
MR ROSEWARNE:
8
MR HILL:
10
11
12
Let me know what you want to do.
Does that email refresh your memory as to whether Mr Hilton was
7
9
If it’s a problem because of
It certainly does not.
Does it refresh your memory as to whether Mr Hilton
was leaving?
MR ROSEWARNE:
On reading that email now, it does, but I don’t
recall such.
MR HILL:
And you must have had a conversation with Mr Bell
13
that if the invoice needed to be changed for Moonee Ponds
14
West Primary School, well, he could.
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
MR HILL:
I don’t recall such a conversation, no.
Do you say that when he’s offered the helpful
17
suggestion, “If it’s a problem because of your friend
18
leaving, I can credit it and recharge it to another
19
school,” that that was his idea?
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
24
25
26
Not discussed with him?
I don’t recall discussing it, no.
You simply, what, told Mr Bell to invoice the Moonee
Ponds West Primary School for printing?
MR ROSEWARNE:
In relation to the goods that he had supplied
me, yes.
27
MR HILL:
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
It was certainly not my idea.
Yes.
Did you give him any other instructions?
Not that I recall.
And if you look at the date of that email, it’s 16
June 2010, so it’s some three months after the purchase
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J. ROSEWARNE
1
which I think was 19 March or thereabouts.
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
6
Yes.
Indeed.
School, one can safely infer.
MR ROSEWARNE:
8
MR HILL:
10
So, clearly, Mr Bell is chasing up payment.
It hasn’t been made by Moonee Ponds West Primary
7
9
Correct.
Correct.
And by this stage, at the very least, the money that
you caused to go from the department to Moonee Ponds West
Primary School must have long gone into their account.
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
13
MR O’BRYAN:
I could assume that, yes.
Yes.
Mr Bell must have been under the impression that
14
you were a friend of Mr Hilton.
15
on his email to you?
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
It’s the use of the word “friend”,
17
Commissioner.
18
principal.
19
Hilton a friend.
20
MR O’BRYAN:
Do you accept that based
I knew Mr Hilton in his role as a
Again, I would state I would not call Mr
No.
But I’m saying Mr Bell obviously seems to
21
have been under the impression you were a friend of Mr
22
Hilton.
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
25
26
27
Do you accept that?
It’s the expression he used, Commissioner.
I
can’t explain why he used that term per se.
MR O’BRYAN:
Do you accept that he must have got that
impression from you?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Potentially.
Again, I say it’s an expression
28
he has used.
I can’t explain why he has used that
29
expression as opposed to “the principal leaving”, for
30
example.
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UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR O’BRYAN:
You have been asked a number of times about
2
banker schools.
3
you could clarify this, Mr Rosewarne – was “banker
4
school” a term formally used in a formal sense in
5
department documents that you’re aware of?
6
7
MR ROSEWARNE:
It’s not clear to me – and I wondered if
Over – over time, yes, that – the expression
“banker schools” would have been used.
8
MR O’BRYAN:
9
MR HILL:
Yes.
Yes, Mr Hill.
Now, just to return to the invoice in respect to
10
Premier Office National, the purchase was not only for a
11
desk but for shelving, a chair and a filing cabinet.
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR HILL:
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
16
Yes.
Is that right?
I’m – I’m – my memory is being tested, but,
yes, I will say “yes”.
MR HILL:
Could we have page 325 up, please.
We’ve now got an
17
invoice from Office National addressed to the Chandler
18
Primary School for printing in the same terms as the
19
invoice that we’ve previously looked at in the same sum,
20
$4587.
21
corner, is 19 March 2010.
22
purchase.
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
The date, if one looks at the top right-hand
That’s the date of the
Yes?
Yes.
So what has happened here, right, is for some
25
reason, Moonee Ponds West Primary School haven’t paid the
26
invoice and consistent with Mr Bell’s email of 16 June
27
2010, he’s sending off an invoice to the Chandler Primary
28
School.
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
MR HILL:
Yes.
I can see the invoice there on the screen, yes.
Well, how did that happen?
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UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
4
MR HILL:
5
6
7
It must have been at your direction.
I have no recollection of such.
It’s hardly likely that Mr Bell would pick the name
of a primary school and send an invoice off to them.
MR ROSEWARNE:
I agree with you.
I don’t recall the specific
conversations that would have led to such.
8
MR HILL:
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
10
I have no recollection.
MR HILL:
All right.
But I agree with your statement.
Well, you may not recall the specific conversations,
11
but do you recall the transaction whereby it was decided
12
that the invoice be, in effect, redirected from one
13
primary school to the Chandler Primary School?
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
No, I do not.
Who was the principal of the Chandler Primary
16
School?
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
Mr Peter Paul.
Well known to you?
Yes.
Yes.
He had a son who was a wine merchant.
Yes?
Yes.
Trembath and Taylor?
Yes.
Yes.
Correct.
With whom you had lots of dealings?
Not lots but, yes, dealings.
Well, we will come to those dealings later but
27
let’s just concentrate on this invoice from Office
28
National now to Chandler Primary School.
29
cannot recollect any conversation with Mr Bell as to the
30
creation of that invoice and the sending of it to that
153
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Do you say you
J. ROSEWARNE
1
school?
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
But you concede that it – that there must have been
a conversation between you and Mr Bell?
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
6
MR HILL:
7
I would, yes.
And you must have given him directions to send the
invoice to Chandler Primary School.
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
10
I can’t recall such.
I would assume so, yes.
Might the reason for that occurring be the fact that
Mr Hilton had left the Moonee Ponds West Primary School?
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
I couldn’t answer that question.
Why would you pick the Chandler Primary School as
13
the appropriate school to pay the invoice of Office
14
National?
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
Because I knew Mr Peter Paul and it’s my
16
recollection that Chandler Park Primary was a banker
17
school.
18
MR HILL:
Right.
But you had obtained money already from the
19
department and caused it to be placed in the bank account
20
of the Moonee Ponds West Primary School.
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
I think I indicated that I couldn’t recall such
22
but I assume such had taken place.
23
or didn’t, I’m not in a position to specifically answer.
24
25
26
27
28
MR HILL:
Now, whether that did
Well, if it did take place, did you have that money
transferred from that school to Chandler Primary?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I can’t recall such.
I couldn’t answer that
question.
MR HILL:
You would agree that it’s a bit loose in terms of
29
accounting when we come to look at the transaction, Mr
30
Rosewarne?
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UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
If you could – well, the definition of the word
“loose”, but I will agree with you.
MR HILL:
You again must have had conversations with Mr Paul
4
regarding the fact that an invoice was coming for
5
printing?
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
I would assume so, yes.
And is it likely that you told him the truth that
8
the invoice was not for printing, but for furniture for
9
your home?
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
12
So you kept him in the dark regarding the
transaction?
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
15
I don’t believe so.
I would believe so, yes.
That is, you were hiding from people who were
involved in the transaction, the truth?
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
The truth in regard what was purchased?
Yes.
Yes.
Indeed.
And you would realise that the principals at both
20
schools and the school councils and school business
21
managers would have to sign off on this transaction.
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
24
Yes.
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
28
29
30
And all of those people were being misled by
you.
25
27
Indeed.
True.
Where is the desk, filing cabinet, shelving and
chair now?
MR ROSEWARNE:
They were in the marital home when I left the
marital home in June 2012.
MR HILL:
Does the department keep a register of its assets?
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J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
value, yes.
3
MR HILL:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
6
7
All right.
MR HILL:
I can’t recall what it would have been at that
And can we assume that the department was never told
by you of the purchase of this furniture?
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
11
What’s the certain value?
time.
8
10
It keeps a register of assets over a certain
Not at the time, no.
When you say not at the time, are you suggesting
later you told them?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I do recall at a later time when I had left the
12
department I was seeking the return of those goods on the
13
basis they had been purchased by the department.
14
seeking the return of those goods from my former wife at
15
the time and I think I indicated on a file that I was
16
seeking those goods back on the basis they were
17
departmental goods.
18
MR HILL:
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
And when was that?
That was probably in late 2012, 2013.
20
Correspondence between the family solicitors would
21
identify that.
22
MR HILL:
I was
So in respect to a transaction that occurred in
23
March 2010 you didn’t tell the department in respect to
24
this furniture for some two years or more.
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
27
And of course, the department didn’t purchase this
furniture, did it?
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
True.
Sorry, I don’t follow the question.
Well, under no stretch of the English language could
it be said that the department purchased this desk,
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1
filing cabinet, shelving and chair.
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
6
7
I don’t agree.
You don’t agree?
No, I don’t.
Well, you hid from the department by subterfuge your
purchase.
MR ROSEWARNE:
The nature of the purchase in terms of the
8
transparency of it, I agree.
9
were for the provision of a home office for the benefit
10
of my conducting departmental work at my home and to be
11
able to locate a home computer, home printer files as
12
such provided by the department.
13
MR HILL:
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
But I purchased goods that
All right.
On the basis that I conducted departmental work
15
at my home on a very regular basis approximately five out
16
of seven nights a week.
17
MR HILL:
If that was the case, why not have the department
18
directly purchase the desk, the filing cabinet, the
19
shelving and the chair?
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
With the benefit of hindsight, I can understand
21
your question.
At the time the option I had would have
22
been to go back to the departmental secretary, and as a
23
condition of my employment contract seek the provision of
24
a home office, which in my mind would have been approved.
25
For reasons I now can’t explain I determined not to do
26
that and undertook the process you have now identified
27
and purchased the same equipment that I would have sought
28
by other means.
29
home office to enable me to store departmental property
30
and conduct departmental business.
But again, I make the point it was for
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MR HILL:
The department probably has available to it a large
2
number of desks, filing cabinets, shelving and chairs,
3
and did have in 2010, which weren’t being used.
4
5
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
Well, I’m not sure I could answer that, and I’m
not sure - - MR HILL:
Well, did you make any inquiries as to whether there
7
was departmental furniture that you could use at your
8
home?
9
new furniture?
10
Rather than going and purchasing for almost $5000,
MR ROSEWARNE:
I did not.
But equally I could state that I do
11
not recall ever the department providing existing
12
furniture for executives to take home as part of a home
13
office provision either.
14
MR HILL:
And why the necessity to call it printing rather
15
than be truthful and say that it was for furniture for
16
your home office?
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
My only rationale would have been to ensure the
18
principal was not asked questions by the school council
19
that he could not answer in regard why was furniture not
20
related to the school being purchased through the school.
21
So it was to protect the principal.
22
MR O’BRYAN:
Are you suggesting that it was written into your
23
contract that you could have home furniture – office
24
furniture?
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
I’m stating, Commissioner, it is my belief that
26
home office entitlements was a condition of contract that
27
could be negotiated as part of your employment contract,
28
yes.
29
MR O’BRYAN:
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
Well, was it written into your contract or not?
Well, on the basis I didn’t seek it as part of
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1
my contract, no.
2
the contract, if you like, template, yes.
3
MR O’BRYAN:
But was it a standard provision within
And you’re not suggesting it was written into any
4
other policy, are you, that we can find in writing that
5
you in your position would have been entitled to home
6
office furniture?
7
8
9
10
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
Only as a provision under the employment
contract.
MR O’BRYAN:
So are you saying that you think that had you
insisted on it you would have got that in your contract?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I’m making an assumption there that if I had of
12
negotiated that with the then secretary what’s the
13
probability of him saying yes or no?
14
the basis I was a senior executive who worked many hours
15
at home that he, I believe, would in all likelihood have
16
said yes.
17
MR O’BRYAN:
Are you aware of anyone else at your level who
18
had such a term?
19
anybody?
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
My assumption is on
Can you name anybody?
Identify
Not by name, but my, again, assumption would be
21
that various executives in the department and other
22
departments had negotiated as such a standard provision.
23
MR O’BRYAN:
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
But you’re not aware of anyone who did?
I can’t recall at this point in time,
Commissioner.
26
MR O’BRYAN:
27
MR HILL:
Yes.
What’s quite crystal clear is you didn’t go and
28
speak to anyone within the department prior to the
29
purchase of this office furniture.
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
I’m not suggesting I did.
159
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
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1
MR HILL:
No.
And you’re not suggesting at that time that it
2
was part of your contract that you had a right to office
3
furniture provided by the department at your home?
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
Not as a right, no.
5
MR HILL:
And you can’t recall any conversations that you
No.
6
had with the principal or anyone else at the Chandler
7
Primary School regarding payment of the invoice?
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
10
I cannot.
The invoice of course was subsequently paid by
Chandler Park Primary School, is that right?
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
I couldn’t answer that question.
Well, surely you followed the course of this
13
transaction.
14
West Primary School paying the bill.
15
Chandler Park Primary School paid it?
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
There had been problems with Moonee Ponds
Did you ensure that
I assume I would have followed it up, but if
17
you’re asking me to recall any specific conversations or
18
like, I can’t recall such.
19
MR HILL:
If we look please at page 386 you will see the
20
transaction history in part for Premier Office Solutions
21
Proprietary Limited, and if we could scroll down and over
22
to page 387.
23
payment by interbank credit to the Chandler – by the
24
Chandler Park Primary School to Premier Office Solutions.
25
Do you agree with that?
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
27
MR HILL:
28
The third-last entry appears to be the
I do.
So it took until November of 2010 to pay for the
furniture that you bought in March?
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
MR HILL:
I agree with the statement there, yes.
And you would agree that it was achieved by a fairly
160
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
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1
circuitous route?
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
6
I would.
And by the deception of a number of people.
I wouldn’t use the word “deception” but I
understand the lack of transparency in such, yes.
MR HILL:
Well, you’ve got no doubt in your mind that the
7
people who dealt with this invoice at Moonee Ponds West
8
Primary School and the Chandler Primary School must have
9
been deceived by the invoices into thinking that they
10
were dealing with an invoice for printing that had been
11
provided in some way.
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR HILL:
14
15
16
Correct.
Yes.
Commissioner, we would seek to tender those
pages as - - MR O'BRYAN:
Yes.
Well, then in numerical order exhibit 13,
136, 254, 306, 307, 325, 348 and 386.
17
EXHIBIT #13 PAGES 132, 254, 306, 307, 325, 348 AND 386
18
MR HILL:
Now, just to recap on something from yesterday
19
before we move to the next topic.
20
that you had your private cars serviced and repaired by
21
Cobra Motors.
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
You told us yesterday
On occasions, yes.
And that you had met, at least on those occasions
24
and one earlier occasion at the football, Mr Carlo
25
Squillacioti.
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
27
MR HILL:
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
Correct.
Who you understood to be mechanic.
Correct.
And a cousin of Nino Napoli.
Correct.
161
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1
2
3
4
5
6
MR HILL:
But in terms of whether he performed any printing
services you were unaware.
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
At any time during your tenure at the education
department.
MR ROSEWARNE:
8
MR HILL:
11
MR HILL:
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR HILL:
Mr Carlo Squillacioti.
16
MR HILL:
20
21
I certainly don’t recall.
Nor any connection between those three companies and
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
I don’t recall them.
Quill Investments Proprietary Limited.
15
18
And the names, Customer Training, Encino
Proprietary Limited are names not familiar to you.
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
I don’t recall knowing such at that time.
Right.
10
14
What point in time are
you asking?
7
9
Sorry, at what time?
Not that I recall, no.
And you have no recollection of what those companies
did, if they did anything.
MR ROSEWARNE:
On the basis that I didn’t recall the
companies, no, I couldn’t answer that.
MR HILL:
And they’re certainly companies that you had no
involvement with.
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
Certainly not.
23
MR HILL:
And they’re not companies that Mr Nino Napoli
24
No.
discussed with you.
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
27
Not companies that he told you was causing
department work to be contracted to.
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
Not that I recall.
Not that I recall.
Not companies that he told you that he might have a
potential conflict of interests.
162
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1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
3
Well, if he did tell you those sorts of things, you
would be likely to remember them, would you not?
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
8
9
10
11
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
MR HILL:
Is this something you’ve discussed with Mr Napoli
since you became aware of the IBAC investigation?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Not in specific names, in terms of the company
names.
MR HILL:
So the topic is something you’ve discussed with Mr
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
At a very broad level in the context that he
was under investigation.
25
MR HILL:
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
27
MR HILL:
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
But I’m indicating that I don’t recall him
raising it so it’s a hypothetical question.
Napoli.
29
Depending on the nature of what he raised.
Right.
22
24
If he had raised such matters with you,
presumably you would have reduced it to writing.
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
It’s my evidence that I don’t recall Mr Napoli
Right.
15
20
Is your evidence that Mr Nino Napoli never
ever raising such matters with me.
MR HILL:
19
Correct.
discussed conflict of interests with you?
14
18
In respect to conflict of interest.
Yes.
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
Certainly the last one, yes.
Yes.
13
16
Not that I recall.
Yes.
When was that?
I don’t recall the specifics.
It was last year, was it not?
It would have – I assume it was some time last
year.
MR HILL:
Yes.
And did you read an article that was published
163
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
in The Age newspaper?
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
6
7
I would have, yes.
Well, did you?
Well, I can’t recall what days I read what
papers, but I assume so.
MR HILL:
Well, if your name appeared in the article, that
would be something that you might remember.
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
It would be unusual, and probably I would.
Was your name in The Age newspaper concerned with
10
allegations being made by The Age, at the very least, of
11
potential corruption within the education department?
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
I believe my name appeared in The Age on
13
various occasions to do with potential IBAC investigation
14
and other matters.
15
16
MR HILL:
Yes.
have - - -
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
19
about yourself?
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
Well, when you use the word “believe” you
mean you have a recollection - - MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
26
No, I’m not saying that.
Right.
23
25
Well, yes.
- - - no recollection of reading in The Age newspaper
20
22
When you say “you believe” are you saying you
Well - - -
- - - of reading The Age newspaper, particularly
where it referred to you.
MR ROSEWARNE:
Yes.
But if you’re asking me to recall the
27
article and the specifics of the article, I couldn’t do
28
that.
29
30
MR HILL:
I wasn’t asking you that.
I was asking you whether
you recollected - - 164
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
On the basis that I read many newspapers on –
2
every day, my name appearing isn’t an unusual event.
3
Would I have read the article?
4
5
MR HILL:
All right.
I assume so, yes.
How many times, Mr Rosewarne, would your
name appear in The Age newspaper?
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
Not very often.
7
MR HILL:
Particularly during the period that you were
8
9
10
11
No.
working at the education department.
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
Correct.
Did you discuss what was reported in The Age
newspaper with Mr Napoli?
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR HILL:
I would assume so.
Did you discuss with Mr Napoli, at meetings that you
14
and he had over coffee, the IBAC investigation and what
15
was in The Age newspaper?
16
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
IBAC investigation, yes.
18
MR HILL:
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
Did you discuss the office furniture?
Not that I recall.
Did you discuss the office furniture with any other
21
person?
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
24
We would have had a conversation regarding the
Again, not that I can recall.
Well, let me see if I can jog your memory.
What
about with Mr John Allman?
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR HILL:
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
MR HILL:
Potentially.
I can’t recall such conversation.
He was a close friend of yours.
He has become a close friend, yes.
He was a close friend of yours at the time.
At what – what time are you referring to?
When you became aware of The Age allegations
165
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
concerning yourself.
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
Yes.
And the likelihood is you would have discussed it
with him.
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
6
MR HILL:
7
MR ROSEWARNE:
8
Allman.
9
around the office furniture.
10
11
MR HILL:
Yes.
13
MR HILL:
16
MR HILL:
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
Correct.
matters?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Some time ago.
I couldn’t recall.
It would
have been months ago.
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
Correct.
When did you last speak with him regarding these
MR HILL:
29
And you discussed it with Mr Allman because he
And remained so.
22
28
They would have, yes.
was a close friend of yours.
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
I can’t remember the specifics of a discussion
Yes.
15
20
I’ve – I’ve had many discussions with Mr
allegations being made against you.
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
You have no recollection of those discussions?
Well, the discussions with him must concern the
12
14
Probably, yes.
Well, how many months ago?
I’m unable to answer.
When was the last time you saw Mr Allman?
Possibly a couple of months ago.
And was that the last time you spoke with him?
I’ve had text communication with Mr Allman on a
social basis, on a regular basis.
MR HILL:
Yes.
When was the last time you spoke to Mr Nino
Napoli?
166
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
I think I indicated yesterday that would have
been nine or 10 months ago, approximately.
MR HILL:
Did any of Nino Napoli’s relatives other than Carlo
4
and Luigi Squillacioti perform work of a private nature
5
for you?
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
10
11
Of a private nature?
Yes.
Not that I can recall.
Is the company name Bammington Proprietary Limited
familiar to you?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Thank you.
Yes.
Mr Napoli and his wife are
12
registered tax agents and so they have undertaken my tax
13
return and my former wife’s tax returns for a number of
14
years.
15
16
17
18
MR HILL:
Right.
So Mr Napoli, not only a work colleague and
friend, was your accountant?
MR ROSEWARNE:
He completed my tax returns on an annual basis,
yes.
19
MR HILL:
And did you have another accountant?
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
No.
So he was your accountant for the purposes - - If you’re an accountant, my definition is the
23
person that undertook my tax return and lodged it on my
24
behalf and my wife’s – former wife’s behalf.
25
MR HILL:
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
27
longer.
Yes.
When did he first start acting in that capacity?
28
MR HILL:
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
MR HILL:
I would estimate some 10 years ago or maybe
And for many years did he complete your tax returns?
Up until approximately a year ago.
Right.
And he also completed your ex-wife’s tax
167
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
returns?
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
6
He did.
What about those of your children?
Certainly he did that on one or two occasions
for both my elder daughters, yes.
MR HILL:
And was it a commercial relationship between you and
7
Mr and Mrs Napoli and Bammington Proprietary Limited - -
8
-
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
10
11
MR HILL:
- - - in respect to – just let me finish the
question.
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR HILL:
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
16
MR HILL:
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
I did not.
Over a period of some 10 years.
Correct.
And that includes not only yourself but your former
wife and your two daughters.
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
Correct.
Did you pay the costs of the servicing and repairs
to your motor vehicles done by Cobra Motors?
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
I did.
In May 2009, were you interested in the purchase of
two coffee machines?
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
So you did not pay for the preparation and
lodgement of your tax returns?
18
27
No, it was not.
Right.
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
Apologies.
In respect to the preparation of your tax returns?
17
21
No, it was not.
I was.
And did you arrange for Mr Pratt at the Brighton
Primary School to purchase two coffee machines on your
168
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
behalf?
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
I did.
And if we could have page 165 on the screen, please.
4
Do you see a Harvey Norman Chadstone tax invoice to the
5
Brighton Primary School, Wilson Street, Brighton?
6
appears to be a cash sale and then if we scroll down, we
7
will see that the cash sale was for two coffee machines.
8
A Jura Impressa Z5 for the sum of $3200 plus GST, making
9
$3895.01.
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR HILL:
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
I’m not an expert on coffee machines but it was
an automatic coffee machine.
MR HILL:
Right.
Yes.
You’ve not done any research on what type of
coffee machine you wanted?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Not – I had tried various coffee machines over
– over a number of years, if that’s research.
MR HILL:
Well, you must have had a budget in mind prior to
the purchase of these two coffee machines.
MR HILL:
Not as such, no.
So money was no object in the purchase of your two
coffee machines?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I didn’t use that expression.
I indicated that
I hadn’t had a specific budget as such.
28
MR HILL:
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
It is.
machine to be paying just under $4000.
24
27
It is.
That must have been a fairly elaborate coffee
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
Is that a coffee machine?
Purchased at your direction?
23
25
It
Right.
And as the invoice indicates, the purchase was
made by Brighton Primary School on my behalf on the basis
169
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
that the principal, Mr Pratt, had offered to purchase
2
such for me.
3
4
5
MR HILL:
Right.
Well, how did he know that you wanted coffee
machines?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Because I had on one occasion visited his
6
school and sighted the number of coffee machines he had
7
in offices and staffrooms and the like.
8
MR HILL:
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
10
11
12
13
And what did you say?
And I indicated that it would be nice to have
such machines in – in the office at work.
MR HILL:
Right.
So you get him to purchase two coffee
machines for a total expenditure of – what is it - $5099.
MR ROSEWARNE:
Mr Pratt offered to do such on the basis that
14
the school would pay and the machines would remain the
15
property of the school and at any point where the usage
16
had finished, then the machines would be returned to the
17
school - - -
18
MR HILL:
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR O’BRYAN:
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
Right.
MR O’BRYAN:
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
school.
27
28
Will we find that in writing somewhere?
I’m not sure you will find it in writing,
Commissioner, but certainly - - -
23
26
- - - was the agreement I had with Mr Pratt.
MR O’BRYAN:
Is it likely we won’t find it in writing?
I’m not sure what records Mr Pratt kept at the
Be frank, Mr Rosewarne.
Is it likely we won’t
find it in writing?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I do recall Mr Pratt saying to me that he would
29
talk to his school council as such and that the coffee
30
machines would go onto the asset register of the school.
170
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
So if that’s an indication as to whether there
3
would be records or not, I would say there would be
4
records.
5
MR O’BRYAN:
6
MR HILL:
All right.
But under no stretch of anyone’s arrogant
7
imagination, the Brighton Primary School did not need two
8
coffee machines valued just over $5000 at that time.
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
My understanding would be that Brighton Primary
10
School would have had a number of coffee machines at
11
least to that value, if not more, and the purchase of
12
those two coffee machines was facilitated by offer from
13
Brighton Primary School by Mr Pratt to me.
14
MR HILL:
All right.
Let’s just deal with the question, Mr
15
Rosewarne.
16
not need two more coffee machines, did it?
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
21
22
Brighton Primary School, at that time, did
You would have to ask Mr Pratt that question.
Right.
It didn’t need these two coffee machines?
You would have to ask Mr Pratt.
Right.
And these two coffee machines, did they end
up at the department?
MR ROSEWARNE:
One of those specific ones did and I replaced
23
one of those machines because it did not finish up at the
24
department.
25
26
MR HILL:
All right.
started at the department after it had been purchased?
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR HILL:
29
30
Which one finished up at the – which one
I assume the first one on the invoice.
Why would you assume that, rather than the cheaper
one?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Because the first one I assume was for my
171
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
office.
2
MR HILL:
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
4
MR HILL:
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
6
MR HILL:
7
And the second one, where did that go?
No, no.
9
MR HILL:
12
13
14
15
I suppose you put it next to your desk and
chair and filing cabinet in your office at home, did you?
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
Where did it go?
It finished up at my home.
Right.
8
10
That was intended for a staff room.
I note your sarcasm, Mr Hill.
Did you put it next to the desk and the chair and
the filing cabinet that had been paid - - MR ROSEWARNE:
It’s not usual to place a coffee machine next
to a computer, no.
MR HILL:
And tell me, why was it that you chose the Brighton
Primary School to make this request of?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I didn’t choose the Brighton Primary School.
16
As I indicated earlier, on occasion I visited the
17
Brighton Primary School.
18
such where Mr Pratt made the offer.
19
MR HILL:
And a conversation followed as
And if we look at the document on the screen, you
20
will see that it has a stamp “Goods received”.
21
recognise that signature?
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
24
25
26
27
28
Do you
I do not.
The likelihood is that that stamp and signature has
been applied by someone at the school.
MR ROSEWARNE:
I would assume so, on the assumption that I
informed Mr Pratt that the purchase had been made.
MR HILL:
Did you pick up the coffee machines from the
Brighton Primary School?
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
MR HILL:
No, I did not.
How did they get from the Brighton Primary School,
172
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
one to your office and the second one to your home?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I actually purchased the machines from Harvey
3
Norman personally on a weekend, and had the machines at
4
home.
5
6
7
8
9
MR HILL:
Right.
So they never went to the Brighton Primary
School, the two machines.
MR ROSEWARNE:
No, on the basis that they were offered to me
by Mr Pratt for my office.
MR HILL:
That’s very good.
There was no - - -
But just the – the answer to the
10
question is, the two machines never went to the Brighton
11
Primary School.
12
13
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
Nor were they intended to go to the Brighton
Primary School.
MR HILL:
I’m not asking about your intention.
15
where they went.
16
School.
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
They did not go to the Brighton Primary
I’ve already answered that question.
Yes.
And the answer is?
No.
Right.
If we look at this document, if we just
21
scroll down a little, please.
22
Brighton Primary School.
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
I’m asking you
Pick up delivery address,
I assume that’s a Harvey Norman process on the
24
basis that Brighton Primary School was the funder of the
25
purchase and was going to, as I indicated earlier, reside
26
on the asset register of Brighton Primary School.
27
MR HILL:
Right.
So if we understand your evidence correctly,
28
what you’re saying is you went to Chadstone to the Harvey
29
Norman store.
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
Correct.
173
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
MR HILL:
You, at that time, lived in the area, either in
Chadstone or Murrumbeena.
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
4
MR HILL:
5
You purchased the two coffee machines, and took
possession of them.
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
10
11
12
13
Correct.
Correct.
And paid for them at that time?
Yes.
And how did you pay for the two coffee machines at
that time?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Mr Pratt had provided me with the school
corporate card details in order to make the payment.
MR HILL:
So Mr Pratt, the principal of the Brighton Primary
14
School, provided you with the details of the corporate
15
card that attached to that school.
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
20
Correct.
Not the card itself, just the details.
I don’t believe the card itself.
Right.
And was that over the phone or in person
when he provided those details?
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
I can’t recall.
And at Harvey Norman you didn’t produce the card.
23
You simply told the sales staff the numbers that could be
24
found on the card.
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
Correct.
I’ve just indicated that I don’t
26
believe, and don’t recall that I had the card from the
27
school as opposed to the card details.
28
MR HILL:
And, what, the sales staff at Harvey Norman accepted
29
you giving to them not the card, but the account details
30
that are to be found on the card?
174
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
3
Now, this corporate credit card, can you tell us
what it’s like?
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
6
7
8
9
Correct.
Is it like a normal credit card?
It’s a school credit card.
Yes, but does it have the appearance of a normal
credit card?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I can’t recall sighting one, as such, so I
couldn’t describe it to you.
MR HILL:
Right.
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
You had your own corporate credit card.
Correct.
Why didn’t you use that?
On the basis that I was not prepared to make
13
that transaction on my corporate card, and then have it
14
subject to scrutiny by the department as an appropriate
15
purchase.
16
MR HILL:
You must have had a fairly low opinion of the
17
department at that time, seeing that you’re hiding from
18
it purchases being made by you.
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
21
22
I think that would be a correct statement, yes.
You didn’t think the department would, what, approve
the purchase if you told them about it in advance?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I had the belief that if the department, or
23
members of the senior executive became aware of such a
24
purchase, every individual in the senior executive would
25
have also then sought a coffee machine which is not
26
something I wanted to create.
27
28
29
30
MR HILL:
Not one coffee machine, Mr Rosewarne, two.
you
purchased one for the office, one for home.
MR ROSEWARNE:
One for the staff kitchen at work, not one for
home.
175
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR HILL:
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
5
The one at home, where’s that machine?
You would have to ask my former wife.
Right.
And did the other machine that was in the
office canteen remain there?
MR ROSEWARNE:
It remained there for a period of time and
6
then, my understanding is, it located in various offices
7
in the department and remained in the department until
8
some time in 2013 where I sought to identify its
9
location.
And my executive assistant identified that it
10
was located in an office the department was using in 35
11
Spring Street.
12
she then, on my direction, sourced that machine, and both
13
machines were turned to Brighton Primary School at that
14
time.
15
MR HILL:
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
18
19
It was stored in a cupboard there.
And
Including the one that had been in your home.
No, the one that had been in my office.
I’m sorry, I thought you just said both machines
were - - MR ROSEWARNE:
Yes, the one I had replaced, that was at home,
20
and remained in the staffroom and various offices, which
21
I just indicated.
22
the possession of two coffee machines - - -
23
MR HILL:
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
So the department was always in – in
And was - - - - - one that I had purchased, and one that
25
Brighton had purchased.
26
my home at the request of my former wife.
27
28
29
30
MR HILL:
The other one, yes, remained at
And was that return of the coffee machines to the
Brighton Primary School documented in any way?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I would believe so.
The machines were returned
to Mr Pratt - - 176
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
MR HILL:
No, was it?
MR ROSEWARNE:
4
MR HILL:
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
6
MR HILL:
7
MR ROSEWARNE:
8
MR HILL:
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
12
Was
it documented?
3
10
I’m not interested in your belief.
MR HILL:
I never checked with Brighton Primary School.
Did you ask for it to be documented?
I asked for Mr Pratt to return – for the - - -
Did you ask for it to be documented?
I’m trying to answer the question, sir.
No, no, answer the question.
I’m trying to.
Did – did you ask for the return of it, that is the
two coffee machines, to be documented?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I asked for the two coffee machines to be
13
returned to the school which, therefore, has an
14
association with it that it would be acknowledged on the
15
asset register that such coffee machines had been
16
returned.
17
MR HILL:
Did you ask that it be documented?
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
20
MR O'BRYAN:
I just answered the question.
And the answer is - - Well, it sounds to me like you didn’t
21
specifically ask for it to be documented.
22
about an assumption that it would go on the asset
23
register.
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
You’re talking
Well, Commissioner, the assumption clearly is if
25
I asked Mr Pratt to come in and – and pick up the two
26
coffee machines and return them, then the associated
27
activities with that would be to record into the school
28
that I had returned the two machines.
29
30
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
All I’m saying is that’s an assumption you
say you made but you didn’t specifically ask for it to be
177
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
documented.
MR ROSEWARNE:
That’s the question.
I can’t answer that because I can’t recall as
3
such so I may have but I may not have and I’m not
4
prepared to say that I did on the basis that I can’t
5
recall such.
6
MR HILL:
When the coffee machines were purchased by you at
7
Harvey Norman, did you have with you a school purchase
8
order?
9
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
I don’t recall such.
Could we have page 166 on the screen, please.
11
School purchase order, Harvey Norman Chadstone.
12
respect to the writing that you can see so far on that
13
document, do you recognise it?
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
I do not.
16
Any inquiries on this order, contact Mr Pratt.
17
That’s the principal?
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
22
purchase order.
24
MR HILL:
It refers to the two
coffee machines and the price.
MR ROSEWARNE:
27
MR HILL:
30
Correct.
If we could scroll down.
26
29
Correct.
It’s clearly a Brighton Primary School school
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
Correct.
Of Brighton Primary School?
23
25
Now, in
Correct.
It has NV (1) 55 Collins Street, Level 6, and (2) 2
Treasury Place.
MR ROSEWARNE:
Correct.
As you would recall in your opening
statement, in 2009, I was seconded to the Victorian
178
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
Bushfire Reconstruction and Recovery Authority which was
2
located at 55 Collins Street, Level 6, for a period of
3
six months.
4
with me and when I returned to the department, went back
5
to the department.
6
7
8
9
10
11
MR HILL:
So you treated the coffee machine as, in effect,
your personal property.
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
Well, hang on, this is Department of Education money
that has been spent here.
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR HILL:
16
MR HILL:
than the Department of Education.
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
24
25
26
27
But still my work location.
And one went to your home address.
And was immediately replaced by another
machine.
MR HILL:
Right.
When you say it was immediately replaced by
another machine, what do you mean?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I replaced the machine that was kept by my
former wife at home.
MR HILL:
Right.
And did that necessitate you going back to
Harvey Norman?
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
Absolutely not.
Well, one of the machines you took to a place other
18
22
Yes.
that were purchased by it as your own personal property.
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
Yes?
Yet you seem to be treating that money and the goods
15
17
For work purposes on the basis it was located
at my work premises, yes.
12
14
My assumption is the coffee machine came
I don’t believe so, no.
Where did you purchase the replacement coffee
machine?
179
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
I don’t recall as such.
..... Mr Rosewarne, you replaced the coffee machine.
3
Now, these are fairly expensive coffee machines.
4
did you buy it?
5
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
11
12
13
I am not 100 per cent certain where I bought it
from.
7
10
Where
What brand did you buy?
I couldn’t – I couldn’t identify that either.
How much did you pay?
MR ROSEWARNE:
It would have been in excess of a thousand
dollars.
MR HILL:
Right.
And what did you pay with?
A credit card,
cash?
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
Cash.
Cash?
So there would be no record of you purchasing
16
this expensive coffee machine in replacement of the one
17
you had at home?
18
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
with cash because of my family situation - - -
20
MR HILL:
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
25
26
Right.
- - - which I’m happy to elaborate on.
I would have had some form of receipt or
invoice or something from wherever I purchased it.
MR HILL:
Right.
Yes.
And you now can’t recall where you purchased
it from?
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR O’BRYAN:
30
Did - - -
Did you keep a record of the purchase?
27
29
As I indicated yesterday, I made many purchases
I can’t be 100 per cent where I - - Roughly how long after the machine went home did
you replace it?
MR ROSEWARNE:
It would have been within a matter of weeks,
180
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
Commissioner.
2
MR O’BRYAN:
Why within weeks?
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
Well, because I was conscious that the Brighton
4
School had funded the machines.
5
that I had purchased two coffee machines for work
6
purposes.
7
8
9
10
11
MR O’BRYAN:
So the Treasury Place address, that was the
Department of Education address?
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR O’BRYAN:
I thought you said earlier that the more
expensive machine went to the Department of Education.
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR O’BRYAN:
15
That was my substantive address.
Yes.
12
14
People in my office knew
Correct.
Well, if you look at footnote 2, the less
expensive one went to 2 Treasury Place.
MR ROSEWARNE:
I – I don’t – well, I haven’t seen this
16
purchase order prior to that and what information was
17
provided to the school or Mr Pratt to – to do that, I’m
18
unaware.
19
MR O’BRYAN:
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
Well, do you see what I’m talking about?
MR O’BRYAN:
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
I’m just saying I’ve
not seen that purchase order before and - - -
22
24
I – I do, Commissioner.
What is - - - - - what information was provided to the
school, I could not - - MR O’BRYAN:
Well, do you accept that the less expensive
26
machine might have gone to the Department of Education
27
address there?
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
No, I do not.
And was it common practice, to your knowledge, for
school principals to provide the details of their
181
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
business credit cards to others?
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
Not common practice, I wouldn’t have thought.
Well, do you know of any other example where a
4
principal has provided you or someone else with the
5
details of the school’s credit card?
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
8
9
I could not.
This meant, in effect, that the Brighton Primary
School was out-of-pocket for $5099, didn’t it?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Mr Pratt made the offer.
What I can’t recall
10
as to whether I then ensured notwithstanding Mr Pratt’s
11
offer, whether I then made available funds to be
12
transferred into that school.
13
have.
14
made by Mr Pratt on behalf of the school, yes.
15
16
MR HILL:
And when did you last speak to Mr Pratt about these
matters?
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
matters?
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
When the - - -
When did you last speak to Mr Pratt about these
20
25
I may not
But certainly the offer in its initial stage was
17
19
I may have.
Yes.
I was trying to answer the question.
I’m asking you the date.
I can’t identify the date.
Approximately what date?
In – sometime in 2013 when the coffee machines
were returned to the school.
MR HILL:
And were you aware of allegations being made at that
27
time about the improper purchase by you of coffee
28
machines?
29
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
No.
I was aware at that time of my former wife
- - 182
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR HILL:
No, no.
Were you aware at that time of allegations
2
– it doesn’t matter from what source – but allegations
3
were being made of an improper purchase by you of coffee
4
machines?
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
I was aware that my former wife was potentially
6
making allegations to various institutions about a range
7
of matters and on a continual basis numbering hundreds
8
per day - - -
9
MR HILL:
All right.
10
MR O’BRYAN:
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
13
MR O’BRYAN:
I will stop you - - -
Would you just - - - - - she would send me - - -
I will stop you there, Mr Warne.
Mr Rosewarne, the question was simple.
You don’t
14
need to rope your wife into this.
15
whether you were aware that improper allegations were
16
being made – allegations about improper conduct were
17
being made.
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR O’BRYAN:
20
You were asked about
Now, that’s the question.
Commissioner - - It doesn’t call for a speech about your wife, and
please just answer the question.
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR O’BRYAN:
23
MR HILL:
Apologies, Commissioner.
Would you repeat the question, please, Mr Hill.
Were you aware at the time that you made inquiries
24
regarding the return of the coffee machines that there
25
was an allegation that you had improperly purchased those
26
coffee machines?
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR HILL:
I cannot recall the timing of such.
And you can’t recall whether in fact the Brighton
29
Primary School as of May 2009 was reimbursed for the sum
30
of $5099?
183
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
No, I cannot.
If they weren’t reimbursed by you or the department,
3
it would mean, in effect, that that school had that sum
4
of money less on which to operate.
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
6
MR HILL:
Correct.
Yes.
And you’ve told us a number of times that you
7
believed that those two coffee machines remained on the
8
asset list of the Brighton Primary School.
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
I indicated that Mr Pratt had made a statement
10
to me which indicated the two coffee machines would
11
remain on the asset register at Brighton Primary School.
12
13
14
15
16
17
MR HILL:
Well, if they were to be assets, it’s hardly likely
that you refunded the purchase price.
MR ROSEWARNE:
statement.
MR HILL:
Well, if you refunded the purchase price it would
come from department monies.
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
20
21
22
23
24
Department head office monies, yes.
Yes.
And they would become an asset of the
department rather than the Brighton Primary School.
MR ROSEWARNE:
Assets of Brighton Primary School are assets of
the department.
MR HILL:
Well, how long had you known Mr Pratt for at this
time?
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
I don’t understand why you would make that
In 2009?
Yes.
I’m guessing – I assume possibly three to five,
seven years?
29
MR HILL:
30
MR O’BRYAN:
If we look at page 167 please.
Is he still there?
Or has he moved on?
184
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR O’BRYAN:
3
MR HILL:
I believe he has retired.
What are we?
167.
167?
We will see the Brighton Primary School’s
4
business card cardholder statement.
5
effectively.
6
will see Brighton Primary School, and on the left hand
7
side under the Commonwealth Bank you will see Mr Gordon
8
Pratt’s business card cardholder statement.
9
that’s the card that was used in one way or another to
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
Correct.
was $10,000.
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
Correct.
So you spent just over half the credit limit in
purchasing the coffee machines?
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
Correct.
And you will also see two signatures authorising the
19
expenditure;
20
that Mr Pratt’s signature?
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
23
one, the signature of the cardholder.
Is
I’m unable to recognise that signature.
And there appears to be the name Ryan – also co-
authorising the expenditure.
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
MR HILL:
26
Clearly
And you will see that the credit limit for that card
14
16
If you – on the top right hand corner you
make this purchase.
11
13
It’s under two names
Correct.
I tender those three pages, Commissioner.
That’s
165 through to 167, as exhibit 13.
27
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes – 14.
28
MR HILL:
29
MR O’BRYAN:
30
EXHIBIT #14 BUSINESS CARD CARDHOLDER STATEMENT
14?
They will be marked exhibit 14.
185
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
MR HILL:
Could we have up on the screen, please, page 168.
Before that comes up on the screen, who was Ian Maddison?
MR ROSEWARNE:
department.
MR HILL:
How long had he been a work colleague in the
department for?
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
How long had he been a work colleague in the
department?
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
All right.
MR ROSEWARNE:
Not initially, but progressively over time,
absolutely.
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
Yes.
And did he become a friend?
Yes.
And did he leave the department?
He did.
And when he left the department where did he go?
I believe at the time he would have gone to a
not-for-profit organisation possibly called Blue Earth.
24
MR HILL:
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
Yes.
Or – again, I’m not 100 per cent sure where he
went immediately after leaving the department.
27
MR HILL:
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
So he was someone you knew well from
that - - -
18
29
I think I might have met Mr Maddison in the
late 1990s.
MR HILL:
26
Well, I believe he served in the department
probably for 30-plus years.
17
23
Ian Maddison was a former work colleague in the
And where did he go after that?
I don’t recall after that.
He from memory
became a person that consulted to various companies.
MR HILL:
Did he consult to the Education Department?
186
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
4
5
6
He did.
Was he involved with Tiger Turf?
I believe he consulted with Tiger Turf.
I’m
not sure whether he was employed by Tiger Turf.
MR HILL:
And did you have dealings with him after he had left
the department on a professional basis?
7
MR ROSEWARNE:
8
MR HILL:
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
I would believe so, yes.
And what were those dealings?
I can’t recall the specifics, but knowing Mr
10
Maddison, whatever company he was organised or involved
11
with, if there was a connection with the department he
12
would have probably made contact with myself or other
13
senior people in the department.
14
MR HILL:
Can we now have page 168 please, and can we scroll
15
down.
This is an invoice from Mr Maddison – Ian Maddison
16
sent on 28 May 2009.
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
Correct.
To a Mr John Allman, the subject being “invoice”.
19
The substance of the email is:
20
I have just checked with my account who advised that the
21
new superannuation rules don’t apply until the new
22
financial year, so I can still belt up to $100,000 into
23
super between now and 30 June.
24
can get Nino to pay that invoice as soon as possible I
25
would be grateful as I would be disappointed to get
26
caught with paying 30 per cent on it at the end of June.
27
Let me know re: Tuesday, Tiger Turf lunch with the
28
bushfire legend.
29
Were you known, in part, as the “bushfire legend”?
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
As a consequence, if you
It was an expression Mr Maddison used.
187
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR HILL:
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
5
Probably a play on your email, Swans legend?
Correct.
Can you throw any light on the invoice that was
being sought in that email?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Not on the basis of what’s on the screen there.
6
My assumption is Mr Allman engaged Mr Maddison to do some
7
work.
8
9
MR HILL:
Did you and Mr Allman, Mr Maddison attend at a
lunch?
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
I can’t recall such.
For Tiger Turf?
Again, I have no recollection of such.
13
lunch with Mr Maddison and the gentlemen there on
14
numerous occasions.
15
16
17
18
MR HILL:
And did Tiger Turf, to your knowledge, have any
large contracts with the department?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I couldn’t recall whether at that time they had
any large contracts with the department.
19
MR HILL:
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
At any time?
I believe at different points in time they
21
sought large contracts from the department.
22
aware that they ever received any.
23
24
25
I had
MR HILL:
I’m not
Well, do you know whether they actually laid Tiger
Turf at any school?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I believe at various times we were – I
26
certainly was involved in a concept of trying to get the
27
ministers to approve a pilot program of artificial
28
surfaces going into schools.
29
of that I can’t recall.
30
MR O’BRYAN:
Whether Tiger Turf was part
The question whether you know whether any was
188
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1
actually laid.
2
can you grapple with the question?
3
MR HILL:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
7
MR ROSEWARNE:
8
MR HILL:
Had it laid, you don’t know.
I can’t recall.
You can’t recall.
Okay.
Thank you.
No.
As you can’t recall whether you
attended this particular lunch that’s being referred to?
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
Not back in 2009, no I cannot.
Was it a regular event that you would attend lunch
with Mr Maddison?
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
15
The specifics of whether I know of any school
that specifically laid Tiger Turf, I can’t - - MR O’BRYAN:
12
Mr Hill,
That was the question.
6
9
I think that was the question.
With Mr Maddison, not with Tiger Turf.
How often back, in 2009 for example, would you be
attending lunch with Mr Maddison?
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
Possibly once a fortnight.
All right.
And were others at those lunches?
There would have been, yes.
Mr Nino Napoli?
Correct.
Mr Allman?
Correct.
Who else would be likely starters at those lunches
24
other than the three of you, that is yourself, Mr Napoli
25
and Mr Allman?
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
Other gentlemen such as Mr Greg Gibbs, Mr John
27
Evans, on occasions Mr Darrell Fraser, on occasions
28
managers such as Mr Jim Miles who worked for myself.
29
was a varying mix of people, but the core of the four
30
gentlemen you identified certainly met on a semi-regular
189
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
It
J. ROSEWARNE
1
basis for lunch.
2
MR HILL:
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
4
MR HILL:
5
And did you pay for those lunches personally?
We all paid for our own.
All right.
So there was never any occasions when
department monies were expended on those lunches?
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
Not that I recall, no.
When you say not that you recall, do you say that
8
there were lunches that may have been funded by the
9
department where you, Mr Allman, Mr Napoli and perhaps
10
11
12
13
14
others were present?
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
So you can throw no light on the invoice that his
being referred to in that email?
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
MR HILL:
18
I’m saying my
memory’s not perfect and I don’t recall such.
15
17
No, I’m not saying such.
Not from that email, no.
Would Mr Napoli discuss invoices for large sums of
money, such as we suggest $100,000 is, with you?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Not necessarily, no.
On occasions, he may have
19
depending on whether the invoice was standard as part of
20
a procurement process, or somewhat unusual.
21
again, recall that invoice because there’s insufficient
22
information in that email to give me any sense of what
23
that was in regard.
24
MR HILL:
But I can’t,
In June and July of 2008 – I’m sorry, withdraw that.
25
In June and July of 2011 were you living at 3 Moroney
26
Drive, Chadstone?
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR HILL:
I was.
And on 11 June 2011 was there an accident at that
29
property where a car collided with the garage door,
30
causing damage to both the car and the garage door?
190
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
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1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
4
MR HILL:
5
There was.
And was the car involved a work car?
It was.
In the sense that it was a car provided to you by
the department?
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
Correct.
And did persons other than you, whilst that car was
8
in your – provided to you, did other persons drive that
9
car, such as your daughter Emma?
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
Yes.
On occasions, yes.
Did you, on the day of the accident where the
12
car collided with the garage door at your home property,
13
did you ring Mr Napoli?
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
I don’t recall such.
Did you speak to him and ask him at that time, or
16
shortly thereafter for advice as to what you should do
17
regarding the accident concerning the department’s car
18
and your garage door?
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
21
I don’t recall such.
Did you seek to get advice from him as to whether
the accident would be covered by insurance?
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
I don’t recall such.
At the time, that is on 11 June 2011, your daughter
24
Emma was unlicensed as a driver in the State of Victoria,
25
was she not?
26
27
28
29
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
I understand now at the time her licence had
expired at that time, yes.
MR HILL:
That is, she did not have a current licence at the
time.
MR ROSEWARNE:
I now know that to be the situation.
191
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
I did not
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
know that at the time of the accident.
MR HILL:
Mr Napoli had a conversation with Mr Allman in which
3
this car accident was referred to.
4
fact?
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
6
MR HILL:
Are you aware of that
No, I’m not.
Are you aware of the fact that Mr Napoli said in
7
that conversation, or says that you rang him that night
8
and told him that your daughter Emma had been driving the
9
motor vehicle, and were otherwise effectively seeking his
10
advice?
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
Are you aware of that fact?
I’m not aware of that fact.
Did you tell Mr Napoli that your daughter Emma was
13
driving the vehicle when it collided with the garage
14
door?
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
MR HILL:
17
Of course, if you did tell him that, there would be
no reason for you to lie to him.
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
20
about this accident.
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
24
Sorry, could you repeat the question?
There would be no reason for you to lie to Mr Napoli
21
23
No, I’m not – I don’t recall such, no.
I don’t believe that necessarily follows, no.
I’m sorry, does that mean that there may be reason
for you to lie to Mr Napoli about this accident?
MR ROSEWARNE:
At the time the accident occurred, my wife –
25
former wife, alleged that my daughter Emma was driving
26
the car and, in essence, removed her from the family home
27
until she admitted that she was driving the vehicle.
28
29
30
MR HILL:
Did you tell Mr Napoli that your daughter was
driving the vehicle at the time of the accident?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I don’t recall such conversation.
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1
MR HILL:
Would there be any reason for you to tell Mr Napoli
2
something that wasn’t the truth about this topic, as to
3
whether your daughter was driving the vehicle at the time
4
of the accident?
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
Only on the basis that it was an arrangement my
6
daughter and I had arrived at in terms of ensuring she
7
could return to the family home again.
8
9
10
MR HILL:
So the likelihood is, you’re saying that you did
tell Mr Napoli that your daughter was driving the motor
vehicle.
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
13
Because if your daughter was driving the motor
vehicle, it wouldn’t be covered by insurance, would it?
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
16
17
No, I don’t recall such conversations.
It would have been covered by insurance.
What, an unlicensed driver driving a motor vehicle
owned by the department?
MR ROSEWARNE:
My daughter Emma was one of the drivers
18
designated to drive that vehicle.
19
licensed or unlicensed, I certainly had no such
20
information at the time of the accident and did not know
21
such.
22
23
MR HILL:
Whether she was
And she didn’t tell you that she was unlicensed at
the time?
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
MR HILL:
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
Not at the time, definitely not.
That’s something that you subsequently learned.
A number of months later she was involved in a
27
motor vehicle accident where she was informed that her
28
licence had expired.
29
she then told me that her licence had expired.
30
MR HILL:
And she renewed it, at which time
This subsequent accident that you’ve told us about,
193
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
did she have to go to court for it?
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
She did.
And did you obtain a reference for her from Mr
4
Allman?
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
I don’t recall such but, on the basis you’re
6
making that statement, I potentially did.
7
it.
8
9
10
MR HILL:
Right.
between the department car and your garage door.
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
driving the vehicle.
17
MR HILL:
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
Not correct.
Not correct?
Not correct.
So I will ask you again, did you tell Mr Napoli that
night that your daughter was driving the motor vehicle?
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
I don’t recall such conversations.
Can you think of any reason why Mr Napoli would lie
about that fact to Mr Allman?
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
MR HILL:
26
Correct.
But, in reality, it was your daughter who was
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
Correct.
And you claimed that you were the driver.
16
20
But there’s no doubt that you claimed on
insurance for the accident that occurred in June 2011
11
15
I don’t recall
No, I can’t.
Did the insurance subsequently pay for the damage to
the department’s car?
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR HILL:
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
MR HILL:
It did.
And did it pay for the damage to the garage door?
It did.
And was there some difficulty in convincing the
194
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
insurers to pay for the garage door?
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
5
Not that I’m aware of.
Did you handle the insurance claim yourself, or did
you have others within the department attend to it?
MR ROSEWARNE:
The normal process was to fill in the insurance
6
form and submit it to the department, and they then dealt
7
with the matter.
8
9
10
MR HILL:
Well, could we have page 174 on the screen, please.
Darren Roberts worked for the Department of Education
within fleet services.
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
13
Correct.
And it was part of his responsibilities to look
after, in a general sense, the fleet of vehicles - - -
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
18
Is that so?
Correct.
- - - that were assigned to the department.
Correct.
And you must have given him some instructions
regarding the incident, or the accident.
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
Filled in the insurance form.
And it appears that he has received an email from
21
the claims administrator, Kathleen Knight, which says, in
22
part:
23
If the driver has damaged his own property, he cannot
24
claim for damage to his own property under this policy.
25
Were you made aware of that email or the contents of it,
26
that you could not claim for damage to your own property
27
under the policy?
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
MR O'BRYAN:
I don’t recall such.
I don’t recall such.
I tender page 174.
Yes.
That will be exhibit 15.
195
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
EXHIBIT #15 PAGE 174
2
MR HILL:
Let’s move, Mr Rosewarne, to the topic of overseas
3
travel.
4
did you travel overseas?
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
6
MR HILL:
7
MR ROSEWARNE:
8
MR HILL:
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
10
I believe so.
And was that for work purposes?
I believe so, yes.
And did you travel with your wife?
She accompanied me on numerous trips overseas,
yes.
11
MR HILL:
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR HILL:
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
In 2009, in the months of August and September,
Yes.
And was this a trip that took you to London?
Correct.
And to Dubai?
Correct.
And did your wife accompany you on those trips?
On that trip, yes.
And were you accompanied by any other persons?
There was other departmental persons that
accompanied me on part of the trip that - - -
20
MR HILL:
All right.
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
Who were they?
Mr Steve Loket was part of the trip to New York
22
which was the initial stop on the trip and various
23
technology vendors were on the trip, their names I can’t
24
remember the - - -
25
MR HILL:
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
27
28
29
30
Yes.
I then travelled to London where Mr Napoli met
me in London for a number of days.
MR HILL:
All right.
Was Mr Napoli in the company of his
wife, Mrs Josephine or Jose – Josie Napoli?
MR ROSEWARNE:
He was not.
196
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR HILL:
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
All right.
6
MR HILL:
7
MR ROSEWARNE:
8
MR HILL:
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
Correct.
And the costs.
Correct.
And were the costs of the travel paid by the
department?
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR HILL:
15
Correct.
Providing an itinerary.
12
14
And presumably you had to file with the
department a request for travel?
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
Not that I’m aware of.
All right.
5
10
Was she on any part of the trip?
Correct.
During that time away, did you and Mr Napoli take a
side trip to Rome?
MR ROSEWARNE:
From – from London, we stopped in Rome for a
16
number of days and then Mr Napoli returned to Victoria
17
and I went on to Dubai.
18
19
MR HILL:
And that was a personal trip rather than one for
department business.
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
22
23
Correct.
And as such, you would not expect the department to
pay for your trip to Rome?
MR ROSEWARNE:
When you say “pay for the trip”, in terms of
24
certainly accommodation expenses and any expenses
25
incurred in that time.
26
MR HILL:
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
Yes.
That would be correct.
And the flights?
Well, the flights were a part of a – a
purchased ticket that had already been made - - -
29
MR HILL:
All right.
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
- - - which in my case was an around the world
197
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
ticket so there was no additional cost as such.
2
MR HILL:
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
4
ticket.
5
6
MR HILL:
Right.
8
MR HILL:
11
MR HILL:
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR HILL:
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
MR ROSEWARNE:
Either via cash or Mr Napoli made the payments,
I assume, for accommodation.
Right.
I then reimbursed Mr Napoli subsequent to the
trip.
22
MR HILL:
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
How much did you subsequently reimburse Mr Napoli?
I would have – it would have been in excess of
$2000.
MR HILL:
Right.
When you say “in excess of $2000”, does that
mean it may have been as much as $10,000?
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR HILL:
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
Which included a weekend.
were incurred in Rome during that time?
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
And how did - - -
How did you pay for those personal expenses that
20
25
I think approximately four days.
Yes.
MR HILL:
24
It was not.
How long were you in Rome for?
19
21
Was that covered by the
department?
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
Correct.
What about her airfare?
10
17
So the costs that were personal to you
and your wife presumably were for accommodation?
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
I’m not aware of his details in terms of the
All right.
7
9
What about for Mr Napoli?
No, I don’t believe so.
Well, what’s the outer limit?
I would have thought below 3000.
Above two,
but below three was the estimate.
198
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
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1
MR HILL:
And why did you not pay for the personal
2
accommodation and expenses for your wife and yourself at
3
the time?
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
Because Mr Napoli and my wife and I were
5
staying in the same – same hotel and so he arranged and
6
offered to pay the accommodation.
7
MR HILL:
And how did he pay for it?
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
Right.
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR HILL:
14
I’m not aware of that.
And how did you refund the money to him?
I paid him in cash.
When did you pay him in cash?
Subsequent to the trip.
Right.
And did you pay the whole of the amount to
him in cash?
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
MR HILL:
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
It would have been, yes.
At the one time?
I don’t believe so.
So over what length of time and how many
19
transactions were there did it take for you to repay the
20
- - -
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
I – I would have thought - - -
- - - money to Mr Napoli?
For that quantum, it would have been
24
potentially one, two or – up to three payments but no
25
more.
26
27
28
29
30
MR HILL:
Right.
And what was the reason that you couldn’t
pay at the time?
MR ROSEWARNE:
There was no reason other than Mr Napoli
offered to pay.
MR HILL:
Right.
Well, I just want to take you to a number of
199
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
documents regarding this trip.
2
made aware of any allegations concerning yourself and
3
this trip overseas in terms of improper conduct?
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
Right.
MR ROSEWARNE:
I can’t remember the exact wording but I think
it referred to unauthorised travel.
MR HILL:
Right.
Did you have any dealings with the travel
agents at all regarding this trip?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I don’t recall such.
Certainly, my office
would have had some dealings.
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
Well, what was that that you recall reading
in The Age newspaper?
MR HILL:
17
I recall reading something in The Age
newspaper.
14
16
Have you at any time been
Yes.
But - - Mr Napoli would have had some dealings and I
assume my former wife would have had some dealings.
MR HILL:
Right.
I’m asking whether you had any dealings, not
your assumptions, but did you?
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
I don’t recall such.
And the article in The Age didn’t jog your memory as
21
to whether you had dealings regarding the organisation of
22
flights and other details necessary - - -
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR HILL:
29
30
Not - - -
- - - for the trip?
Not as such.
When you say “not as such”, what do you mean?
I don’t recall.
Presumably, before you left to travel overseas – and
how long were you gone for?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Approximately two weeks.
200
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
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1
MR HILL:
Presumably, before you left, there were lots of
2
discussions with Mr Napoli regarding the trip and meeting
3
up and what you hope to achieve?
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
Indeed.
Yes.
And I also believe Mr Napoli would have spoken
to my former wife also about the trip.
MR HILL:
And why does your answer need to encompass your
former wife when the question was clearly directed to
yourself only?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Because the side trip, as you described it, to
Rome was on the request of my former wife.
MR HILL:
So you’re trying to think ahead and justify your
14
conduct, are you, rather than answer the questions that
15
are being asked of you?
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
18
19
20
21
Not as such.
Right.
Well, perhaps you could do the courtesy of
answering the question, Mr Rosewarne.
MR ROSEWARNE:
I’m not sure that’s a question so I can’t
answer it.
MR HILL:
Could we have page 193 on the screen, please.
If we
22
look at the second of the two emails, you will see Mr
23
Napoli emailing someone by the name of Sue Christophers.
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
MR HILL:
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
Correct.
Who was Sue Christophers?
At that time, Sue Christophers would have been
27
the general manager responsible for international
28
education.
29
30
MR HILL:
And Mr Napoli is saying that he’s preparing an
itinerary for his trip to Bahrain and then over to
201
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
Sharjah.
2
wants me to do whilst I’m overseas.”
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
4
MR HILL:
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
“I need to meet Jeff Rosewarne on some work he
Correct.
What was the work that you wanted Mr Napoli to do
overseas?
MR ROSEWARNE:
To meet with myself in London and meet with
various organisations regarding education business.
MR HILL:
Yes.
Perhaps you could be a little bit more
specific than that.
What in particular was it that
required you and Mr Napoli to meet in London?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I believe it was to do with the integration of
12
early education, which is kindergartens and preschools,
13
into the Department and how that would operate.
14
15
16
MR HILL:
And why did it need you and he to meet in London for
that reason?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Because they had undertaken such an activity
17
and we wanted to go and discuss how they had undertaken
18
that activity with various entities and organisations.
19
MR HILL:
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
When you say “they”, who?
and boroughs and schools in England.
22
MR HILL:
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
25
The British government and then local shires
Who did you and Mr Napoli meet in London?
Various people from different organisations.
All right.
Let’s see if can explore your memory.
Which organisations?
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
27
MR HILL:
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
I don’t recall such.
Which people?
I don’t recall their names.
So was this a productive trip?
I can’t recall whether I would judge it as
202
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
productive or not.
MR HILL:
All right.
Well, it can’t be productive of much if
3
you can’t recall the institutions, the people, or indeed
4
anything about - - -
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
Similarly, in terms of other locations where I
6
went I couldn’t recall the names of people I had met or
7
the institutions per se, other than I know I was in those
8
locations.
9
MR HILL:
But here you are requesting in effect, or agreeing
10
with Mr Napoli to meet overseas, wanting him to do some
11
work.
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
And he would have filled in the necessary
13
paperwork and sought approvals from the various people in
14
the organisation at this time, which I believe would have
15
been the Secretary of the Department authorising that
16
travel.
17
MR HILL:
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
22
And you and he were to meet in London?
Correct.
But as to what you did in London, you can’t tell us.
Well, we - - -
Just a moment.
You can’t tell us who you’ve met or
what institutions you and Mr Napoli met with.
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
I can’t today sit here and recall such.
Did you file a report when you got back to the
25
office regarding what you and Mr Napoli did whilst in
26
London?
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR HILL:
29
30
I don’t believe so.
Can you recollect any positive thing that came out
of your meeting with Mr Napoli in London at that time?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I can’t recollect such.
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1
MR HILL:
How long were you and he in London for?
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
I believe three or four days.
And was it from London that you and he flew to Rome?
It was.
Now, going back to the email, it appears that Mr
6
Napoli is preparing his itinerary for Bahrain and then to
7
Sharjah.
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
Correct.
Do you know what he was doing in either of those two
10
places?
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
I don’t recall such, no.
Sorry, I should add:
12
I do know that we have a – or the Victorian government
13
has an association with an international school in
14
Sharjah, which was the same reason I was visiting Dubai
15
at that time.
16
is Bahrain.
17
MR HILL:
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
I don’t – I don’t know what the connection
All right.
I assume Ms - Ms Sue Christophers would.
Then if we look at the next of the emails, if that
20
could be scrolled down.
21
Scrolled up.
22
to Mr Napoli.
23
will book and pay for your flights.
24
advise them of dates and indicate that there will be a
25
stopover.
26
as you get a free internal flight within the Middle East.
27
Best wait until 8 September,” etcetera.
28
that, you’ll see is 25 August 2009.
29
30
Sorry.
I keep saying that.
Here’s the response from Sue Christophers
“The Economic Development Board in Bahrain
We will need to
If you fly Emirates this will not be an issue,
If we go to page 194, please.
through with Ms Rosewarne.
The date of
Just follow this
We see the second of the two
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1
emails.
2
visit to Bahrain, I’ve had a discussion with Jeff, and
3
I’ve synchronised my schedule with Jeff to meet him in
4
London to coordinate some work that we have pending.”
5
You can’t throw any light on what that work that was
6
pending was?
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
“With regards to my
It would have been to do with early education
and its integration into the Department.
MR HILL:
Yes, but that tells us nothing.
What was the nature
of that work?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Meeting with various institutions as to how
that activity had taken place in that location.
MR HILL:
And these are the institutions that you can’t recall
now?
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
MR HILL:
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
23
It’s Nino emailing Sue.
At this time, no.
And you filed no report of your activities - - Not that I recall.
Sorry?
Not that I recall.
Did Mr Napoli prepare a report?
I couldn’t answer that question.
Well, did you see a report prepared by Mr Napoli or
someone else?
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
MR HILL:
I don’t recall such.
Then if we look at the second of the emails.
26
“Thanks, Nino.
27
he is yet to firm up dates.”
28
were having discussions with Sue Christophers, you would
29
agree?
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
I was just talking with Jeff, who advises
So that indicates that you
I would agree.
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UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
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1
MR HILL:
Then if we could go to page 195.
2
appearing again.
3
email, so you received that email.
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
6
Italy.
MR ROSEWARNE:
8
MR HILL:
10
You’re copied in to Mr Maddison’s
Correct.
And it’s recommending various places to stay in
7
9
We see Mr Maddison
The very heart of Roma.
Yes?
Correct.
So presumably at that time both you and Mr Napoli
had determined that you would take this side trip to
Rome?
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
I would assume so, yes.
Yes.
And had made it known one or other or both of
13
you to Mr Maddison that you would be interested in his
14
guidance as to where to stay in Rome.
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
MR HILL:
Correct.
And then perhaps we will just follow the email
17
chain.
18
Cropley from FCM Travel sending an email to Mr Napoli
19
regarding travel to Europe.
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
22
If we could have page 196.
Here’s a Nicole
Do you see that?
I do.
And FCM Travel, was that one of the authorised
travel agents for the Department of Education to use?
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
Yes.
I believe so, yes.
And she’s attaching, in effect, three versions
25
of his flight itinerary.
26
next email, so scroll up until we can see the first email
27
on the page.
28
Nicole promptly.
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
MR HILL:
And if we just scroll to the
We have Mr Napoli, in effect, responding to
Correct.
Referring, in the substance to it – in it, rather,
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UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
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1
to his wife.
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
Yes.
And at the bottom you will see:
4
Re the accommodation in Italy, will confirm this in the
5
next few days after discussions with Jeff.
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
Correct.
And to refresh your memory, if we go to the second
8
paragraph – I’m sorry, the first paragraph, last
9
sentence:
10
If you suggest that we change the flight, please remember
11
that Jeff and Anne will need to be changed as well as we
12
are on the same flight at 7.30 am and we’re all
13
travelling – we are travelling together to Rome.
14
15
16
17
18
Do you say that Mrs Napoli didn’t accompany her
husband, Nino Napoli, to Rome?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I’m absolutely saying that.
Certainly when Mr
Napoli arrived in London, he was travelling by himself.
MR HILL:
Right.
Now, could we go to page 200, please.
Mr
19
Napoli had to seek approval to travel internationally
20
from the department.
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
Correct.
And, significantly, one of the persons that he
23
sought approval from – or the person that he sought
24
approval from was you.
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
He sought it from the secretary of the
26
department who’s the only person that can approve such
27
travel, and it appears at that time I was the acting
28
secretary.
29
30
MR HILL:
So the person that he was to travel with overseas
was the person who approved his travel.
207
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
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1
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
for persons that he was travelling overseas with.
3
MR HILL:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
10
11
12
13
14
No, the secretary would often approve travel
Who approved your travel?
I don’t recall such.
Did you have to have your travel approved?
Absolutely.
So - - There would be a similar brief on file
identifying such.
MR HILL:
Why could that person not approve Mr Napoli’s
travel, seeing that, in part, he was travelling with you?
MR ROSEWARNE:
In part, but I assume the answer is because of
the timing of the lodgement of the travel plans.
MR HILL:
Well, let me just press you in respect to that topic
15
for a moment.
16
that approved your travel.
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
21
22
23
You can’t recall the name of the person
It would have been the secretary.
And who was the secretary at that time?
2009, it would have been Professor Peter
Dawkins.
MR HILL:
All right.
And why could the secretary have not
approved Mr Napoli’s international travel?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Well, on the basis I don’t know when Mr Dawkins
24
approved mine, the answer could only be that the two
25
briefings were not lodged at the same time.
26
MR HILL:
Right.
But do you think it a wise course for a
27
person such as you to be approving the travel of Mr
28
Napoli, bearing in mind your close personal relationship
29
with him and the fact that he was your personal
30
accountant, and that his cousin was repairing your motor
208
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
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1
vehicles, and he wasn’t charging you for is accountancy
2
work, that you should be approving his international
3
travel?
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
6
The only person able to approve such travel is
the secretary or the acting secretary.
MR HILL:
And I will ask you the question again, do you think
7
it wise in those circumstances that you approved his
8
application for international travel?
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
On the basis I’m not sure there was a viable
10
alternative, and that travel had been endorsed on its way
11
through to me as the acting secretary by, I assume,
12
whoever was Mr Napoli’s superior at that time.
13
14
MR HILL:
And in making application for approval for travel,
Mr Napoli would have to file reasons for the trip.
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
MR HILL:
I believe so, yes.
And before you approved that trip, you would read
17
what it was that he said was his purpose for travelling
18
overseas.
19
20
21
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
the screen.
MR HILL:
Yes.
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
Is that the
I believe so, yes.
Did you read that document?
I would have at the time.
And it’s Mr Napoli seeking approval for overseas
travel arrangements - - -
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
Well, let’s turn to page 202.
document?
23
27
It would have accompanied the briefing that’s on
Correct.
- - - to travel to Dubai and the United Kingdom
between 21 October 2009 and Wednesday, 4 November 2009.
209
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
3
Is there any mention by him in that document of a
trip to Rome?
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
Correct.
Not that I can see, no.
Well, take your time.
No, I can’t see it.
Or any mention in that document as to the days that
he would be in Rome?
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
No.
And can we take it that both you and he flew
business class?
MR ROSEWARNE:
That was an entitlement under the department’s
travel - - MR HILL:
Can we take it that both you and he flew business
class?
MR ROSEWARNE:
In accordance with the department’s entitlement
conditions - - MR HILL:
I didn’t ask you about the department’s wishes or
19
rules.
20
class.
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR HILL:
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
MR HILL:
I asked you whether you and he flew business
As executive officers, yes.
Did you fly business class from London to Rome?
I would assume so.
And did he?
Again, I assume so.
And did your wife accompany you in business class?
I would assume so.
And was she being paid for by the department?
No.
Not at all?
210
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1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
3
So your wife flew from Melbourne to – what was the
trip?
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
10
And, as best you can recollect, all
of those flights were business class?
MR HILL:
16
To Sharjah, Dubai, and then home.
And then home.
12
15
To London.
To London, to Rome.
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
New York.
Melbourne to New York.
11
13
No.
Correct.
And in respect to your wife who was accompanying
you, the department did not pay her travel expenses.
MR ROSEWARNE:
Didn’t pay for her air fare.
Accommodation was
paid for myself which she obviously shared.
MR HILL:
It must have cost a lot of money to provide business
17
class flights for her around the world, effectively, and
18
for her accommodation even back then in 2009 in fairly
19
expensive cities.
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
26
The accommodation was paid for for myself - - -
Right.
- - - which she shared.
How much were the airfares?
They would have been in excess of probably
$7000.
MR HILL:
When you say “they probably would have been”, do you
27
say you’ve got no real recollection of how much her
28
airfares were?
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
MR HILL:
Eight, $9000.
In excess of seven.
And in respect of those, say, $8000 in airfares for
211
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
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1
your wife, did she pay for them or did you pay for them?
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
5
I indirectly paid for them.
You indirectly paid for them.
How did you
indirectly pay for those airfares?
MR ROSEWARNE:
On numerous trips that my wife took overseas, I
6
had someone else use a credit card facility which I then
7
reimbursed them and that, on most occasions, was Mr
8
Napoli.
9
MR HILL:
You will forgive me, but I don’t get to travel
10
overseas that frequently and perhaps you would tell us
11
what all that means.
12
gave you Frequent Flyer points?
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
No.
Do you mean to say that Mr Napoli
I’m indicating that on my family credit
14
card, it was very rare that I ever had credit available
15
due to family circumstances and when I needed to make a
16
payment that involved a family member or family
17
situation, Mr Napoli, as a friend, I requested whether he
18
could make such payment and then I reimbursed him.
19
MR HILL:
Right.
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
So Mr Napoli paid for your wife’s airfares?
On numerous occasions.
No, no.
Let’s forget about numerous occasions,
22
let’s talk about this occasion.
23
flew to New York, and to London and to Rome business
24
class where your wife’s airfare was somewhere in the
25
order of $8000, Mr Napoli paid that amount of money, did
26
he?
27
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
This occasion that you
I can’t recall whether Mr Napoli paid that
particular account or not.
29
MR HILL:
Well, you didn’t pay for it.
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
Not directly, no.
212
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
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1
2
MR HILL:
The Education Department didn’t pay for it, one
would trust.
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
4
MR HILL:
No.
And when you say you didn’t pay for it indirectly,
5
are you suggesting that you don’t know who paid your
6
wife’s airfare?
7
MR ROSEWARNE:
8
MR HILL:
9
10
11
12
No.
I’m not suggesting that.
Well, how did it come about that you got the $8000
to pay your wife’s airfares?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I don’t recall the specifics of that
transaction.
MR HILL:
This is a pretty good deal, isn’t it.
Here she is,
13
she’s flying around the world business class, you’re not
14
paying, she’s not paying.
15
paid.
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
Come on, you must remember who
I don’t recall, as in my wife travelled with me
17
on numerous occasions overseas and on numerous occasions,
18
Mr Napoli made such payments, and whether they be for
19
personal or business travel and then I reimbursed Mr
20
Napoli.
21
MR HILL:
Well, let’s concentrate on this particular occasion.
22
Had you ever incurred such a large airfare for your wife
23
before?
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
MR HILL:
26
27
28
I don’t believe so, no.
And you didn’t have the money to pay for her airfare
because of family circumstances.
MR ROSEWARNE:
I wouldn’t have had the cash available, no, I
don’t believe, at that time.
29
MR HILL:
Nor the credit.
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
Certainly not the credit.
213
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
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1
MR HILL:
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
6
7
8
9
And did you ask Mr Napoli to pay for your wife?
I don’t recall such, but I assume so.
When did you pay him back?
I paid Mr Napoli returns on numerous occasions
over extensive periods of time for reimbursements.
MR HILL:
When did you pay him back the $8000 or so for this
trip?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Well, I’m not sure about this trip other than
numerous trips my wife took and family holidays that Mr
10
Napoli paid, I repaid him progressively over time in
11
cash.
12
MR HILL:
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
15
In cash?
You didn’t borrow this money from Mr Napoli, did
you?
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
20
I don’t recall such.
Did you ever borrow money from any of Mr Napoli’s
relatives?
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
Yes.
I did on at least one occasion.
Who was that?
I believe Carlo lent money on one occasion for
a family holiday.
25
MR HILL:
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
27
MR HILL:
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
I don’t recall such.
You didn’t borrow it from any of his relatives?
21
24
Always.
Carlo Squillacioti;
is that the man?
Correct.
The man who serviced your personal cars.
Correct.
The man who appears to have sent an invoice to you
back in 1996 which you can’t recall.
214
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
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1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
4
MR HILL:
5
Correct.
How much did you borrow from him?
It was a family cruise - - -
How much did you borrow from him?
It’s a simple
question.
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
I believe it to be about $5000.
About $5000.
Correct.
And when did you borrow $5000 from Mr Squillacioti?
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR HILL:
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
That would have been in 2011.
2011.
And when did you pay him back the $5000?
Subsequent to the family holiday.
When did you pay him back?
Over the following 12 months.
And was that loan documented?
Not that I have in my possession at the moment.
How did it come about that you had the gumption to
18
ask Mr Squillacioti for a loan of $5000 so that your wife
19
could travel overseas with you?
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
I didn’t as such.
I had asked Mr Napoli
21
whether he could make the credit payment and I would
22
reimburse him and, at the last minute, he indicated that
23
he was not in a position to do it, but he had arranged
24
for Carlo to make that payment.
25
MR HILL:
Did you know that, at that time, a lot of money from
26
the department was going into accounts controlled, in
27
effect, by Mr Carlo Squillacioti?
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
I did not.
Did you know that Nino Napoli, at that time, was
directing a lot of work to Mr Carlo Squillacioti and the
215
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
entities that he controlled?
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
I did not.
It would be a bad look, wouldn’t it, for you, and if
4
you did know, that lots of department’s money was going
5
to Mr Squillacioti and his entities and, at the same
6
time, you were borrowing money from him?
7
MR ROSEWARNE:
8
MR HILL:
9
Money that doesn’t seem to have been documented in
any official way.
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
12
a year or so in cash - - MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
MR HILL:
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
I kept a notebook.
You kept a notebook.
Tell us what the notebook
looked like.
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
making.
30
I would have, yes.
When you say you would have, how did you keep this
20
29
Not in my possession currently.
Did you ever have a record?
record?
28
Correct.
- - - but which you have no record of.
19
27
It was for private travel, so no.
And money which you say you repaid over a period of
13
22
It would have been, yes.
MR HILL:
Similar to a document such as that.
Right.
Yes.
And in that you would mark what?
I would have recorded the payments that I was
How many payments did you record in that book
regarding the $5000?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Any payments that I was making to Mr Napoli
and, in this case, to Carlo.
216
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
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1
MR HILL:
Were you giving – let’s just concentrate, seeing
2
that you raised it, with Carlo.
3
did you make?
4
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
7
MR ROSEWARNE:
8
MR HILL:
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
On occasions, yes.
Right.
Were there other occasions where you met him
elsewhere?
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
Not that I can recall.
So if it was three or four times, you’ve taken,
what, a thousand or more on each occasion?
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
That’s what I would have assumed.
And met him at Cobra Motors?
Correct.
Were you with Mr Napoli, Nino Napoli, on either of
those – well, any of those occasions?
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
Not as such, no.
Right.
And had you finished paying Mr Nino Napoli
the $8000 that was incurred in late 2009 for your wife?
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
27
Yes.
So that necessitated you going out to Cobra Motors?
14
24
Yes.
And did you give him the cash money?
MR HILL:
21
It probably was three
And were they all in cash?
10
16
I don’t recall as such.
or four.
6
13
Did – how many payments
I would assume so, yes.
How did – they, all the payments to Nino Napoli were
in cash?
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
Would have been at Treasury Place in cash.
In cash, and you would have kept a record.
A notebook, as such.
217
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR HILL:
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
4
5
And that notebook would have been at work.
notebook to my home premises.
MR HILL:
Same notebook as what you used to record payments to
Carlo?
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR O'BRYAN:
8
9
Did you get the 5000 in cash from Carlo in the
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR O'BRYAN:
11
- - -
No, Commissioner.
And where did the cash come from that you paid to
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR O'BRYAN:
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
I would have been.
first place?
10
15
After I left the department I transferred the
The cash is what I used to repay - - I’m sorry, that you paid to Carlo?
It would have come from my bank account
progressively.
MR HILL:
So if we looked at your bank account, we would see
17
these amounts being withdrawn for the purposes of paying
18
Carlo.
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
I’m not sure you could identify it as such when
20
you looked at the bank accounts, but if you looked at my
21
bank account you could see ATM withdrawals on a continual
22
basis over a number of years.
23
MR HILL:
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
MR HILL:
26
27
How much could you withdraw from an ATM?
Up to $500 at a time.
Right.
And where were you making these withdrawals
at ATMs so as to pay Carlo Squillacioti back?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Well, it’s whether I made specific withdrawals
28
to pay Mr Squillacioti or just made withdrawals to have
29
cash available.
30
withdrawals primarily in the city, but also on weekends
My banking records would show you ATM
218
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
at locations near my home on a continual basis.
2
MR HILL:
No withdrawals at North Sunshine?
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
4
MR HILL:
I don’t believe so.
So if what you’re telling us is the truth, you would
5
expect Mr Napoli to say that on numerous occasions you
6
were indebted to him for moneys that he had paid on your
7
behalf so that your wife could travel overseas.
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
And that you paid him back in time in cash.
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
12
Indeed.
Indeed.
Right.
Qantas Business Travel Proprietary Limited,
is that an organisation that you’re familiar with?
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
Not as such, no.
Were they not the education department and, if not,
15
the Victorian Government generally, authorised travel
16
agent for overseas travel?
17
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
I
couldn’t answer it.
19
21
I’m not a hundred per cent certain of that.
Where did you stay in London?
I don’t recall the hotel name.
It would have
been on the briefing that you had up earlier.
MR HILL:
All right.
All right.
Could we have page 219,
23
please.
24
corresponding with Mr Napoli at his private email address
25
on 1 October 2009 or perhaps I should start with you
26
corresponding with Nicole Cropley first on 1 October 2009
27
from your private address – email address:
28
Nicole, hello.
29
normal rate just in case.
30
This is you from your private email address
Please book Raffles, standard room on a
Was that a reference to the hotel that you were
219
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
staying at in London?
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
I don’t believe so.
Well, what is the reference “Raffles” to?
I believe it’s to a hotel in Dubai.
In Dubai.
6
In regards itinerary for work, can I please have
7
Melbourne, Seattle, Seattle to New York, New York to
8
London, London to Dubai, Dubai to Melbourne.
9
That’s what you wrote to her?
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR HILL:
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
At that time, yes.
No mention of Rome?
Not in that email.
No mention of Rome as a stop-off?
Not in that email.
And did she book the flights as you asked for there?
I believe the Seattle part of the trip was ever
17
under – well, it wasn’t undertaken.
18
Seattle.
19
20
21
MR HILL:
Well, I will ask you again.
MR ROSEWARNE:
She booked flights.
flights?
23
Seattle leg didn’t occur.
24
MR HILL:
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
28
29
30
Did she book the
flights?
22
27
We didn’t go to
Did she book those
No, not all of those flights because the
So did you subsequently communicate with her?
I assume I did or my office did.
Yes.
I see the time, Commissioner.
If that’s
appropriate – before I move to the next - - MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
We can take – we can stop now.
We will
break until 1.30.
ADJOURNED
[12.27 pm]
220
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
RESUMED
[1.30 pm]
2
MR O'BRYAN:
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
4
MR O'BRYAN:
5
MR HILL:
I remind you you’re still on oath, Mr Rosewarne.
Thank you.
Mr Hill.
Thank you, sir.
Mr Rosewarne, this overseas trip
6
that you took in 2009, I think you told us prior to
7
lunch, in part, involved you going to the International
8
School at Sharjah?
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
10
MR HILL:
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
Correct.
And did you meet with the principal of that school?
I did.
Who was that?
Mr Gordon Pratt.
Mr Gordon Pratt.
The same Mr Gordon Pratt that some
15
months earlier had been the principal of the Brighton
16
Primary School?
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
19
Correct.
The same Gordon Pratt that assisted you in the
purchase of the coffee machines?
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
Correct.
And had he been the principal of the Brighton
22
Primary School when the $10,000 payment was authorised by
23
you that we referred to the other day?
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
I would assume so.
I can’t recall the timing
of that $10,000 payment.
MR HILL:
Right.
When did he become the principal of the
International School at Sharjah?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I don’t recall the exact dates, but some time
prior to the latter part of 2009, I believe.
MR HILL:
And clearly post the May purchase of the coffee
221
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
machines.
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
6
How long after the purchase of the coffee machines?
principal of the International School at Sharjah?
MR ROSEWARNE:
8
MR HILL:
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
12
13
I don’t have that information.
Did you have a hand in his appointment at the
7
10
Correct.
I did not.
Who made that appointment?
I would assume the ruler of the Emirate himself
would have made that appointment.
MR HILL:
Yes, but who made the decision in Victoria to move
him from the Brighton Primary School?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I’m unable to answer exactly, but I would
14
assume the head of school education, government schools -
15
- -
16
MR HILL:
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
19
Right.
- - - and the secretary at the department would
have recommended Mr Pratt as a potential applicant.
MR HILL:
Now, in respect to your wife’s travel expenses for
20
the trip, you’ve told us, I think, that they, to your
21
imperfect memory now, amounted to somewhere in the
22
vicinity eight, $9000.
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
Correct.
And Mr Nino Napoli paid them on your behalf.
No.
I’m not 100 per cent certain that
occurred.
27
MR HILL:
Well, who paid for them?
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
I indicated that on one occasion, Mr Carlo had
29
paid one account and, over the course of the luncheon
30
break, I also reflected on whether anyone else had
222
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
previously paid an account on my behalf and I can confirm
2
that a Mr Ralph Barba, on one occasion, paid an account
3
related to my wife’s travel.
4
5
MR HILL:
Right.
borrowed money from Ralph Barba;
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
10
MR HILL:
15
MR HILL:
I did.
And did you borrow any other sums of money from any
other of the – of Nino Napoli’s relatives?
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
I did not.
You say now that it has come to you over lunch time
that you borrowed eight, $9000 from Ralph Barba.
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
In – yes.
And that was to pay for your wife’s travel?
I believe so, yes.
And that would have been the travel in the second
half of the year 2009?
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
Correct.
That is the travel that we were talking about prior
to lunch.
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
For a family holiday.
Nino Napoli.
MR ROSEWARNE:
27
Yes.
You also borrowed money from time to time from Mr
14
24
And we will come back to that in a moment,
but you also borrowed money from Carlo Squillacioti.
12
19
On one occasion.
That was for the eight or $9000.
Right.
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
Yes.
is that right?
What amount was that?
11
13
So it seems that you, in the past, have
Yes.
The amounts correspond, so, yes, I believe so.
And so your account of paying Mr Napoli cash
moneys on three or four occasions is not correct?
223
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
No.
It is correct.
I indicated earlier that I
2
had loaned funds from Mr Napoli to pay for travel and
3
family holidays on numerous occasions, so I made many
4
payments to Mr Napoli - - -
5
MR HILL:
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
8
9
10
Right.
- - - of a cash nature to reimburse him for
such loans.
MR HILL:
In respect to the loan from Mr Barba, how did that
come about?
MR ROSEWARNE:
In conversation with Mr Barba as part of
11
regular catch-ups whilst he was taking work, I indicated
12
to him that I was going to ask Mr Napoli again for a loan
13
to enable my wife to travel.
14
would be prepared to do that rather than me ask Mr Napoli
15
again.
16
MR HILL:
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
He indicated to me that he
Why would you mention that topic to Mr Barba?
Because we were in dialogue about - Mr Barba
18
was aware of my marital situation, and the difficulties
19
that were being undertaken at home in relation to the
20
marriage, and used to ask regarding my welfare and how
21
things were in terms of my private life when we caught
22
up.
23
MR HILL:
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
MR HILL:
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
27
MR HILL:
28
29
30
Right.
How much did you gamble a week back in 2009?
I would have thought not at all.
Not at all?
From memory, not at all.
Right.
Tell me, in respect to the loan from Mr
Barba, was that documented?
MR ROSEWARNE:
There is documentation related to it that Mr
Barba has.
224
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR HILL:
Right.
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
And have you repaid that loan?
It is still being repaid.
But this is a loan from 2009.
I understand.
So in 2009, you borrow eight or $9000 from Mr Barba
6
to pay for your wife’s airfares for an overseas holiday
7
for her in October of that year.
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
10
Correct.
And now, some six years later, you’ve not fully
repaid that loan.
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
Correct.
When did you start repaying that loan?
2014.
It would have been in 2014.
So when it became known to you that IBAC were
15
investigating corruption within the Education Department
16
and when you knew that The Age newspaper had nominated
17
you, you commenced to repay Mr Barba a sum of money that
18
you had had the benefit of for some five years?
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
Mr Barba contacted me in 2014 and indicated
20
that I hadn’t repaid the loan amount and that, whilst he
21
had, if you like, delayed the repayment due to my family
22
circumstances for a number of years earlier, it was now
23
appropriate to make the payment.
24
25
26
27
MR HILL:
And the documentation that you speak of was made at
at that time in 2014?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I certainly have that documentation and I
believe Mr Barba would have that documentation.
28
MR HILL:
And it was made in 2014?
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
MR HILL:
The document I’m referring to was made in 2014.
And you met with him for that purpose on 6 May 2014
225
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
at a café in Victoria Street, East Melbourne, by the name
2
of Solah, S-o-l-a-h, Café;
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
4
MR HILL:
5
is that right?
I don’t recall such meeting, but - - -
Well, did you have a meeting at a café with Mr Barba
at about that time in East Melbourne?
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
I have no recollection of such.
Well, let’s explore your recollection as to when the
8
documentation was put together.
9
around about that time?
10
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
Was it put together at
I would have thought possibly earlier than that
time.
12
MR HILL:
How much earlier?
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
MR HILL:
Months.
How many months earlier?
I couldn’t identify the exact number of months.
Come on, Mr Rosewarne, this is last year in respect
17
to a loan that you hadn’t repaid for some five years
18
which is now being documented for the first time, and you
19
say you can’t recall when that was that you documented
20
it?
21
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
You’re asking me the specific month, and I
can’t recall.
23
MR HILL:
All right.
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
MR HILL:
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
27
MR HILL:
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
Within a couple of months, was it - - -
I would believe so, yes.
Of May 2014.
Yes.
How much have you paid back since on that loan?
I would guestimate probably half or more.
Right.
Was there an interest component?
No.
226
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
MR HILL:
Right.
Mr Barba for five years.
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
4
MR HILL:
5
money.
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
9
Correct.
During that time he had made no call on you for the
6
8
So you have the free use of that money from
Not during that time.
And you had not made any mention of it to him in
terms of repaying it or commencing repayments.
MR ROSEWARNE:
No, on the basis I knew Mr Barba was aware of
10
my family and marital circumstances for the majority of
11
that time.
12
13
MR HILL:
Did you know that Mr Barba was doing work for the
Department of Education?
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
18
19
20
21
In 2009?
Yes.
Yes.
And did you know that he continued for some time
thereafter to do work for the Department of Education?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I’m unaware of how long he continued to do work
for the department.
MR HILL:
Do you think there might not be a conflict of
22
interest in borrowing money from someone who provides
23
external services and goods to the department?
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
There would be a conflict where I was involved
25
in the particular engagement of Mr Barba for that work,
26
yes.
27
MR HILL:
Did you report to anyone the fact – that is at the
28
department, the fact that you were borrowing money from
29
one of the suppliers of goods and services?
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
I did not.
227
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR HILL:
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
8
9
10
Did he pay you in cash?
No, he did not.
Did he pay you by cheque?
He did not.
How did he transfer the sum of money to you?
I believe he paid for the transaction
associated with my wife’s travel.
MR HILL:
And how do you believe that?
What’s the basis of
that belief?
MR ROSEWARNE:
On the basis that he had agreed he would pay
11
it, and I certainly didn’t receive cash or an EFT
12
transaction.
13
14
MR HILL:
All right.
And you certainly didn’t pay Mr Napoli
in respect to that?
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
MR HILL:
I did not.
Did you get any acknowledgment from the travel
17
agency that your wife’s air fares had been paid by Mr
18
Barba?
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
21
22
23
24
25
I don’t recall such.
It may have happened.
Well, you would be interested to know, would you
not, that your wife’s air fares had been paid?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I would have been interested to know if it
certainly hadn’t been paid, yes.
MR HILL:
Presumably to have them paid, you would have had to
have got an account from the travel agents.
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
27
MR HILL:
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
I’m unsure as to how the transaction occurred.
That’s an honest answer, is it?
It is.
You’re unsure as to how the transaction occurred.
In regard of Mr Barba making the payment.
228
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
3
4
MR HILL:
Right.
providing an invoice to you for your wife’s air fares?
MR ROSEWARNE:
such.
MR HILL:
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
9
10
11
That may have occurred.
I can’t recall as
But I assume it possibly did.
5
8
What about in respect to the travel agents
Let’s see if we can jog your memory.
Thank you.
The travel agents were FCm Travel solutions, weren’t
they?
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
They were.
The person who was dealing with your wife’s travel
was a consultant by the name of Nicole Cropley.
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR HILL:
Correct.
Could we have, please, page 249 on the screen.
14
Travel Solutions, consultant Nicole Cropley.
15
invoice, Innovating Visuals Proprietary Limited,
16
Melbourne.
17
accommodation, airport transfer and travel insurance,
18
$9841.
19
the accommodation, airport transfers, etcetera.
20
21
22
23
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
FCm
Tax
Description, international travel including
That was the amount of your wife’s air fares and
I don’t believe there was any accommodation
paid by my wife.
MR HILL:
That was the amount of the invoice that was rendered
by FCm Travel Solutions to you, wasn’t it?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I don’t recall such, but I’m also making the
25
statement that I don’t believe any travel was booked in
26
my wife’s name in terms of accommodation.
27
28
MR HILL:
All right.
But you agree that FCm Travel Solutions
were the travel agents.
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
MR HILL:
Correct.
And can you think of any reason why they would be
229
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
invoicing your wife’s travel to a company by the name of
2
Innovating Visuals Proprietary Limited?
3
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
Barba.
5
MR HILL:
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
8
9
10
11
Do you?
Yes.
Have you heard of Innovating Visuals Proprietary
Limited?
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
Not that I recall, no.
Let me assist you.
Do you know the name Daniel
Calleja?
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR HILL:
I do not.
Do you know that Daniel Calleja is related to Nino
14
Napoli?
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
I assume that’s a company associated with Mr
Only on the basis of what you showed on the
screen yesterday.
17
MR HILL:
And that that’s his company.
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
I did not know that.
Right.
Can you think of any reason why Daniel
20
Calleja or Innovating Visuals Proprietary Limited would
21
be paying for your wife’s travel?
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
No, I cannot.
23
MR HILL:
Particularly as you now say since some time
No.
24
last year you’ve been repaying those travel expenses to
25
Mr Barba.
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
27
MR HILL:
Correct.
Did you have any discussions with Nicole Cropley at
28
all regarding your travel arrangements and/or the
29
invoicing for them?
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
I would have assumed so, yes.
230
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
MR HILL:
Yes.
Did you ask her to prepare that tax invoice in
that way?
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
4
MR HILL:
I don’t recall such.
Could we have page 252.
We see a similar tax
5
invoice, this time dated some five days later, again to
6
Innovating Visuals Proprietary Limited, but the
7
description of the service provided has changed to
8
“travel, production of occupational health and safety and
9
communication planning”.
10
Nicole Cropley - - -
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
15
Did you give instructions to
Not that I recall, no.
- - - to put that description?
Not that I recall, no.
Would that be a fair summation of some of the work
that you did overseas?
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
Not the work that I did, no.
17
MR HILL:
And we can be quite clear that your wife didn’t
18
No.
do any such work.
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
21
Correct.
So there’s no doubt about this, it’s clear also that
you did not personally pay for the travel for your wife.
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
Not directly, no.
23
MR HILL:
Not personally?
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
No.
25
MR HILL:
Could we have on the screen, please, page 233.
No.
No.
26
This is an email from Nicole Cropley to Nino Napoli:
27
Confirmation: this email is to confirm that Anne
28
Rosewarne’s travel was paid personally by Jeffrey
29
Rosewarne for travel in November 2009 to USA, UK and
30
Europe.
231
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
Can you shed any light on that email?
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
I cannot.
Can you shed any light on why she would be
4
confirming that fact in September 2012, that is some
5
three years after the travel?
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
8
9
It’s not someone trying to put up a false paper
trail?
MR ROSEWARNE:
10
MR HILL:
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
I cannot.
I’m unaware of such.
You don’t know who paid your wife’s travel.
My understanding is Mr Ralph Barba paid it on
the basis that I am repaying Mr Barba.
13
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes, but you don’t know for sure.
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
I don’t, Commissioner.
And if we could go to page 248, please.
Here’s an
16
email from Nino to Daniel - that is Daniel Calleja - of 8
17
October 2009.
18
Hi Daniel.
19
Our bank account details if you need to pass on to each
20
company are –
21
Invoice attached for payment as discussed.
And if we then if we just go down to the account name
22
“FCm Travel solutions”.
23
that is page 249, which we have already seen.
24
the invoice.
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR HILL:
And the invoice that was with
And there’s
Correct.
Clearly all in relation to your wife’s travel.
I believe so.
Yes.
Being paid for by either Daniel Calleja or his
29
company FC – I’m sorry, Innovating Visuals Proprietary
30
Limited.
232
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
Yes.
I was unaware of such, yes.
And you were unaware that Innovating Visuals
3
Proprietary Limited was the recipient of a large sum of
4
money over a number of years from the Department of
5
Education?
6
7
MR ROSEWARNE:
Only on the base of what you put on the screen
yesterday.
8
MR HILL:
So this comes as quite a surprise to you?
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
10
MR HILL:
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
It does.
Quite troublesome, is it not, Mr Rosewarne?
It is.
And because you obtained no documents at the time as
13
to who paid your wife’s travel expenses, you can’t throw
14
any light on this at all?
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
MR HILL:
I had assumed Mr Barba had paid the travel.
Well, we understand you assumed that, but you can’t
17
throw any light because you never bothered to get any
18
official receipts or documents showing that fact?
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
Not as such, no, I don’t believe.
20
MR HILL:
It’s not just a story created by you, Nino
21
No.
Napoli and Ralph Barba?
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
It is not.
23
MR HILL:
But yet, the loan agreement doesn’t come into
24
25
26
27
No.
existence until you are under investigation.
MR ROSEWARNE:
Sometime after the even occurred, absolutely.
I agree.
MR HILL:
Let’s go back to the question:
the loan agreement
28
doesn’t come into existence until after such time as you
29
know you’re being investigated.
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
The loan agreement was always in existence.
233
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
The activation of the repayments occurred some five years
2
after as you indicated.
3
4
MR HILL:
There was never a loan agreement in force prior to
2014.
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
6
MR HILL:
Well, I disagree.
All right.
There was.
Well, you tell us where that loan
7
agreement is to be found, the one that was in existence
8
prior to 2014.
9
10
11
12
MR O’BRYAN:
Just – that you’re talking about a written loan
agreement.
MR HILL:
I’m sorry.
there?
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
15
16
17
Not as such that I recall.
So the first time a written loan agreement comes
into being is once you know you’re being investigated?
MR ROSEWARNE:
The first time a written agreement came into
place was 2014, yes.
18
MR HILL:
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
There was no written loan agreement, was
When you knew you were being investigated.
When Mr Barba approached me to say that the
debt was still outstanding and needed to be repaid.
21
MR HILL:
At a time when you knew you were being investigated.
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
24
MR O’BRYAN:
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR O’BRYAN:
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR O’BRYAN:
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
MR O’BRYAN:
I was aware of such investigation, yes.
Yes.
Is the loan agreement dated?
In terms of the correspondence, Commissioner?
Last year’s written loan agreement.
Yes, it would be.
It is dated?
It would be.
Where is it now?
234
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
3
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
hopefully still have possession of it in my residence.
MR HILL:
And presumably, you have got copies of the
repayments that you have made?
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
6
MR HILL:
7
MR ROSEWARNE:
8
MR HILL:
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
10
11
12
No.
For the reasons that my family circumstances
had changed significantly since the middle of 2012.
MR HILL:
I didn’t ask you the reasons – I didn’t ask you the
reasons, Mr Rosewarne.
14
MR HILL:
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
MR HILL:
I thought you might be interested.
Just deal with the question.
This time by cheque?
By EFT.
Right.
Paid to Mr Barba?
Or to Four Diegos
Proprietary Limited?
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
To Mr Barba.
Personally?
Yes.
Right.
All of which payments start after you know
you’re under investigation for corruption?
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR O’BRYAN:
26
them.
27
233 and 248.
28
MR HILL:
29
MR O’BRYAN:
30
In cash again?
This time by cheque?
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
I would have.
All right.
13
17
Mr Barba would have possession of that, and I
Correct.
Could we have – I tender, Commissioner, those - - Well, there’s a series.
Can I just run through
I have got 193, 195, 196, 200, 202, 219, 249, 252,
Is that right?
And 194 and 195.
I have got 195, okay.
So that will be 193 to
195, 196, 200, 202, 219, 233, 248 to 9 and 252 will be
235
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
exhibit 16.
2
EXHIBIT #16 PAYMENTS TO MR BARBA FROM MR ROSEWARNE
3
MR HILL:
I ask that page 257 be placed on the screen.
This
4
concerns the purchase of a Toyota Yaris motor vehicle
5
from Aarons Car Removals and Northern Auto ....., and an
6
application to Vic Roads for the transfer of
7
registration.
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
Have you seen that document before?
I have.
And if we could go to 258.
After the application
10
for transfer of registration with Vic Roads there is a
11
vehicle registration form which is what is shown on page
12
258.
Have you seen that form before?
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
15
I have.
Then there is an application of transfer of
registration at 259?
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
Correct.
And you have seen that document before?
I don’t recall that one.
All right.
And then could we go to 260.
This may
20
be the same – and I think it is the same as the first
21
document we showed you in this series.
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
Yes.
And can we ask you in respect to that document
24
that’s currently before you, page 260 - can we just
25
scroll up – keep going – is that your signature?
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
27
MR HILL:
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
it?
I believe so.
You believe so, do you?
It doesn’t look like my normal signature.
In fact, it’s nothing like your normal signature, is
Look at the J.
Would you agree that it’s nothing
236
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
3
like your normal signature, Mr Rosewarne?
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
Well, do you recall signing these documents?
MR HILL:
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
10
I recall signing documents in regard to the
transfer.
7
9
I indicated that it doesn’t look
like my normal signature.
4
6
Not as such.
Do you recall signing these documents?
Given the length of time that has elapsed, I
don’t recall specifically signing those documents.
MR HILL:
Can we have page 258 up on the screen, and if we
11
could go to the signature that purports to be yours.
12
that your signature?
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
MR HILL:
17
Is
That looks like my signature.
Right.
Do you recall signing that document?
I don’t as such, but the signature I recognise.
Right.
259, please.
And if we could look at what
purports to be your signature.
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
That looks like my signature.
Right.
And would you agree that those two
20
signatures are completely different from the signature on
21
the other document?
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
MR HILL:
They are different, yes.
Would you agree that they’re completely different?
I agree they’re different.
And could we have to 261.
This is a Reserve Bank of
26
Australia cheque which has been endorsed with the words –
27
if we could scroll down:
28
I hereby authorise this cheque to be credited to Jeffrey
29
H. Rosewarne.
30
Whose writing is that?
237
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
The writing looks like mine, the signature
looks like my daughter’s.
MR HILL:
Right.
So the words are written by you:
4
I hereby authorise this cheque to be credited to Jeffrey
5
H. Rosewarne.
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
I assume that was a tax return my daughter
7
received and she probably owed me money and so therefore
8
- - -
9
10
MR HILL:
Forget your assumptions, Mr Rosewarne.
We’re not
interested in your assumptions.
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
Well, it looks like a Reserve Bank - - -
Do you have a recollection of writing those words?
Not as such, but I recognise the writing.
Right.
So you recognise that writing as your own,
15
but you have no recollection of when or why you wrote
16
that?
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
19
261.
No recollection as such.
Right.
Thank you.
I tender page 257 through to
Exhibit 17.
20
MR O'BRYAN:
Exhibit 17.
21
EXHIBIT #17 PAGE 257 TO 261
22
MR HILL:
Thank you.
Now, you’ve already told us that a Mr
23
Peter Paul, P-a-u-l, was the principal of the Chandler
24
Primary School.
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
27
28
29
30
Correct.
And he was a long-standing friend of yours as of
2009.
MR ROSEWARNE:
He was certainly a well-known work colleague,
yes.
MR HILL:
Was he a friend in addition to being a work
238
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
colleague - - -
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
- - - like Nino Napoli was both a work colleague and
a friend?
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
6
MR HILL:
7
MR ROSEWARNE:
8
MR HILL:
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
10
11
12
He was not - - -
MR HILL:
Not in the same manner, no.
Would you socialise with him?
At work functions on occasions.
Outside of work?
No.
Right.
And how long had you known him as such to
socialise with at work functions?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I first met Mr Paul – it would have been in the
13
late 1990s where we travelled overseas together on a work
14
trip to Canada.
15
MR HILL:
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
How long were you in Canada together?
14 days maximum.
18
MR HILL:
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
23
Was your wife on that trip?
MR HILL:
29
30
Generally once a year.
Matthew Paul.
25
28
It varied.
Now, Mr Peter Paul has a son whose first name is
MR ROSEWARNE:
27
Was not.
How many times a year would you travel overseas?
24
26
I would for - with a group for 10 to – 10 days,
Correct.
And Matthew Paul has a business called Trembath and
Taylor Proprietary Limited.
MR ROSEWARNE:
I was unaware he had a business.
I understood
he worked for the firm Trembath and Taylor.
MR HILL:
All right.
So he works for a firm by the name of
Trembath and Taylor Proprietary Limited.
239
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Did you find
J. ROSEWARNE
1
that out through discussions with his father?
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
8
9
I did.
And Trembath and Taylor are wine merchants - - They are.
- - - specialising in Italian wines?
Correct.
And how did it come about that you and Peter Paul
were discussing his son and Trembath and Taylor?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Mr Paul made the offer that if I wanted to
10
purchase wine on behalf of the department that his son
11
was in the business and would be happy to supply that
12
wine.
13
MR HILL:
It seems on your evidence, Mr Rosewarne, that you
14
are quite a fortunate man in that people often volunteer
15
to do things for you.
16
assist you with wine purchases, Gordon Pratt offering to
17
assist you with coffee machine purchases, Ralph Barba
18
offering to support you by loaning moneys to you which he
19
doesn’t seek back for many years.
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
Here is Mr Peter Paul offering to
Mr Paul would be well aware of the
21
sensitivities and issues associated with public servants
22
procuring alcohol.
23
MR HILL:
Why would he be well aware of that?
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
Because he was a long-standing member of the
25
department, and would have had many conversations and
26
attended many work functions where the topic of alcohol,
27
and alcohol purchases, associated FOIs and the like would
28
have been a topic of discussion.
29
MR HILL:
He was a school principal.
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
He was a school principal who served on many
240
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
committees in the department and was well known in the
2
department.
3
4
5
MR HILL:
Well, presumably there’s not a lot of alcohol served
at primary schools.
MR ROSEWARNE:
There is alcohol served at primary school
6
functions and associated entity functions on a regular
7
basis.
8
9
10
MR HILL:
Through Mr Paul, did you make arrangements for his
son and, in turn, Trembath and Taylor for the purchase of
quantities of win?
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
13
I did.
And did you have those quantities of wine billed to
the Chandler Primary School?
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
I did.
If we would look, please, at page 264.
16
clearly one of those such orders.
17
invoice for it, yes?
18
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
This is
This is the tax
I couldn’t recall such, but if you’re saying
such, yes.
20
MR HILL:
Well, have a look at it.
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
Well, it’s 2009.
I arranged for a number of
22
wine purchases over a number of years.
23
the content.
24
MR HILL:
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR HILL:
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
MR HILL:
I can’t remember
Did you select the wines yourself?
I did generally, yes.
One of the wines is $83 a bottle - - Correct.
- - - of which you got 12.
Which would have been - - -
$1290 worth.
241
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
3
In 2009, that’s a fairly expensive bottle of wine,
isn’t it?
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
6
It is.
And as the invoice shows, you had ordered wines to
the value of just under $4000 - $3695;
7
MR ROSEWARNE:
8
MR HILL:
9
Correct.
is that right?
Correct.
Now, were those wines delivered to the Chandler
Primary School?
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
No, they would have been delivered to my home.
So on 23 November 2009, or thereabouts, some eight
12
dozen bottles of Italian wine, to the value of $3695,
13
would have been shipped to your home.
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
Yes.
Paid for by the Chandler Primary School.
To Trembath and Taylor, and I would have
arranged for Chandler Primary School to be reimbursed.
18
MR HILL:
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
23
Delivered to my home, correct.
Did you?
I would have, yes.
When you say you “would have”, did you?
I would have requested that to occur, yes.
Right.
And did you do that prior to the purchase or
after?
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
MR HILL:
I can’t recall whether it was prior or after.
And when the eight dozen bottles of expensive
26
Italian wine arrived at your home, what did you do with
27
it?
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
I generally stored them in the garage and
29
transported them to work or other venues as quickly as
30
possible.
242
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
MR HILL:
Did you have a large area in which you could store
wines within your garage?
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
4
MR HILL:
5
6
7
8
9
I had a double garage.
Does that mean that the double garage was capable of
storing a large quantity of wine?
MR ROSEWARNE:
If by large you mean eight dozen, it would
have.
MR HILL:
Well, there was a lot more than eight dozen coming
through your garage though, wasn’t there?
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
Over a period of time, a number of years, yes.
Well, let’s look at the next order, page 265.
This
12
is order number two, seven and a half dozen bottles of
13
wine to the value of $3630.07, bearing the same date.
14
there are two orders.
15
garage as well?
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
18
I would assume so.
thousand plus dollars’ worth of wine.
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
28
Did that lot of wine come to your
So, in total, there’s some seven and – seven
19
27
So
Correct.
Fifteen and a half dozen bottles of wine.
Correct.
Ordered by you - - Correct.
- - - under two separate order numbers.
Correct.
And which the Chandler Primary School were to pay
for.
MR ROSEWARNE:
To pay for.
My understanding, could I add, was
29
that my name was identified as the recipient of the
30
wines, and certainly my home address was identified as
243
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
3
4
the location for the wines to be transported to.
MR HILL:
It doesn’t seem as such to be identified on the
invoice, does it?
MR ROSEWARNE:
My recollection is certainly the delivery
5
dockets clearly indicated such and so, therefore, I must
6
say I assumed the invoices would have reflected the same.
7
8
9
MR HILL:
Yes.
But we’ve looked at the two invoices, neither
of which have your details on them at all.
MR O'BRYAN:
10
MR HILL:
11
MR O'BRYAN:
12
MR HILL:
We should scroll down as well, in fairness.
I’m sorry.
Just to see the whole of it.
Okay.
Keep going.
Yes, let’s go back – let’s go back to 264 which is
13
invoice number 1, and we will just look at the whole lot
14
of it.
15
MR O'BRYAN:
So the only thing I can see – and can we scroll
16
right to the bottom, please.
17
address”, and then the terms and conditions.
18
the other – go back to 265 - - -
19
MR HILL:
20
MR O'BRYAN:
“Matt to detail delivery
And then
265.
And if we scroll slowly, I think it’s the same
21
thing, “Matt to detail delivery address”.
22
to be what’s on the face of that one, Mr Rosewarne.
23
MR HILL:
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
So that seems
So nothing that identifies you?
And that’s what I’m indicating, I’m surprised
25
by that on the basis that the delivery dockets clearly
26
indicated my name and address.
27
28
29
30
MR HILL:
You know that there’s a difference between a tax
invoice and a deliver docket.
MR ROSEWARNE:
Again, my comment would be that my clear
understanding was the invoice was to be paid by the
244
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
school but identified as a purchase on behalf of the
2
department.
3
4
MR HILL:
Well, it doesn’t identify at all that it’s a
purchase on behalf of the department, does it?
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
Not on that invoice, no.
6
MR HILL:
And these invoices would have gone directly to
7
No.
the school.
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
When were these invoices paid?
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
12
I’m not able to identify that.
All right.
Did you make any inquiries with the
Chandler Primary School when they were paid?
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
MR HILL:
17
Correct.
Not as such.
How they were to be paid?
Certainly I had an arrangement with Mr Paul.
Right.
Were there other wines purchased on that –
that same day, 23 November 2009?
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
I’m unable to answer that.
You see, anyone looking at the invoice would say
20
that those wines were for the Chandler Primary School and
21
were shipped to the Chandler Primary School.
22
be a fair reading of those two invoices.
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR HILL:
That would
It would.
Do you know the suburb Kealba, K-e-a-l-b-a?
I do.
Who lives in Kealba?
Mr Napoli.
Could we have page 266 on the screen.
29
delivery docket.
30
The date is 23 November 2009.
Here’s a
Now, the order number here is order 2A.
And the invoice number is
245
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
414692.
2
numbers on the previous two were 414689 and 414690.
3
we don’t have the invoice – we have a delivery docket
4
that seems to have started life as a tax invoice, would
5
you agree?
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
8
9
10
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
Correct.
Napoli’s home address.
13
MR HILL:
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
Yes?
Correct.
In Kealba?
Correct.
For Wednesday, 16 December, with the word “any”
probably
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR HILL:
30
Yes?
But yet the delivery instructions seem to be to Mr
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
Correct.
ship to Chandler Primary School.”
MR HILL:
So
And it has got “Bill to Chandler Primary School,
12
16
And if you will take it from me that the invoice
meaning any time that day.
Yes?
Correct.
Did you place that order?
I would assume so.
So it’s for 24 bottles of – is it Prosecco?
Yes.
Some Italian wine?
Correct.
$462.02 in total.
Correct.
And underneath it has “paid”.
It does.
Now, that’s the delivery docket.
Does that suggest
that these items were paid for prior to delivery?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I’m unable to say.
246
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR HILL:
Well, you didn’t pay for them?
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
Not unless they were on those prior invoices.
And it seems that fifteen and a half dozen were
4
delivered to your home address and two dozen to Mr
5
Napoli’s address.
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
Correct.
Why would you be ordering wine on the account of
8
Chandler Primary School that was to go to Mr Napoli’s
9
home address?
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
The only reason I could reflect on would be
11
there were occasions if I ordered wine and I was not
12
going to be at my residence at or around that time, I was
13
reluctant to have wine delivered to my house for family
14
reasons and I would have requested it go to Mr Napoli’s
15
residence instead.
16
MR HILL:
But that’s just nonsense.
You’ve just told us you
17
had fifteen and a half dozen on the – at the same time
18
delivered to your garage, why wouldn’t you have the other
19
two dozen - - -
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
22
23
24
- - - delivered to your garage rather than to Mr
Napoli’s home?
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
Because I don’t believe they were at the same
time.
25
27
Because I don’t - - -
You don’t?
I – I – I’ve only quickly seen the documents
but I thought they were different delivery dates.
MR HILL:
The date of the order is the same each time, 23
29
November 2009, and there is nothing on the other
30
documents as to the date of delivering.
247
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
The orders, I
J. ROSEWARNE
1
suggest to you, were all placed at the same time.
2
agree?
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
4
MR HILL:
Do you
Probably, yes.
Well, why then, if they were placed probably at the
5
same time, would you have two dozen delivered to Mr
6
Napoli’s home and fifteen and a half dozen delivered to
7
your home?
8
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
Because for the delivery to my home, I would
have been there or thereabouts and been able to take
10
possession.
11
to be at my residence at that time and I did not want the
12
wine being delivered to my home for family reasons.
13
14
15
16
17
MR HILL:
For the two dozen, I assume I was not going
But you just had all the wine delivered at the one
time.
MR ROSEWARNE:
Because I was there.
I would have assumed I
was there and ready to take possession of the delivery.
MR HILL:
Well, you could have taken delivery of the seventeen
18
and a half dozen just as equally easily as you could take
19
delivery of fifteen and a half.
20
21
22
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
I’m making the assumption that I don’t believe
the two dozen was delivered on the same day.
MR HILL:
All right.
It’s not you and Mr Napoli splitting
this wine?
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
It’s not.
25
MR HILL:
Tell me, you have a recollection, do you, of
No.
26
deliberately splitting the order so that two dozen went
27
to Mr Napoli’s home address?
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
I do not.
Well, you must have been the one who gave the
delivery instructions, having placed the order.
248
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
I must – I assume that the two dozen was not
2
available to be delivered at the same time and at the
3
delivery date.
4
my premises or thereabouts at that time so I requested it
5
go to Mr Napoli’s address.
6
7
MR HILL:
Right.
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
14
I would – I would believe so.
And was this wine for you as well?
10
13
So you gave the delivery instructions that
this wine be delivered to Mr Napoli’s address?
8
12
As I explained, I was not going to be at
It was for departmental purposes, yes.
Right.
And did you get it from Mr Napoli’s place at
some stage?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I assume Mr Napoli brought it to work at some
point.
15
MR HILL:
You assume?
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
Well, I can’t remember the exact occasion but
17
given it was for work purposes, Mr Napoli would have done
18
such.
19
MR HILL:
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
Did he often bring wine to work?
for work purposes.
MR HILL:
But wouldn’t that excite the curiosity of your
fellow workers as to why wine is being delivered?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Not as much as getting the wine actually
delivered to the work premises, no.
MR HILL:
Right.
Well, why didn’t you have – so it’s okay for
Mr Napoli to bring wine to work - - -
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
Only when he had it delivered to his premises
As I did.
As you did.
But not for it to be delivered by
Trembath and Taylor?
249
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
3
4
I preferred not, no.
Right.
And I suppose we only have your word that
these wines were used for departmental purposes only.
MR ROSEWARNE:
I’m not sure how to answer that other than
5
people would have consumed that wine at departmental
6
functions.
7
MR HILL:
Yes.
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
But certainly - - -
Not consumed by you at home?
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
Certainly not.
11
MR HILL:
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
Certainly not.
13
MR HILL:
But yet you were the one who ordered the wines.
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
Or at any of your functions?
No.
On the basis that I was the primary organiser
15
of many of the functions involved at the departmental
16
premises.
17
MR HILL:
18
MR O’BRYAN:
19
20
Wines - - Where did you – I’m sorry – where did you store
the wine in the department when you took it there?
MR ROSEWARNE:
It was either delivered into – I took it into
21
my office, stored it there or stored it in storerooms or
22
took it to particular functions on the day.
23
MR O’BRYAN:
But I thought you said earlier – you did say
24
earlier that as soon as possible after it was delivered
25
to your house, you took it into the department.
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
27
MR O’BRYAN:
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
I removed it from my premises, yes, indeed.
As soon as you could.
Correct.
Depending on the volume and what –
29
how – how soon the function was occurring, how much room
30
- - 250
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR O’BRYAN:
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR O’BRYAN:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
6
7
Quite a few dozen to lug up to – what, up a lift?
And stored where in your room?
MR O’BRYAN:
What person can witness that apart from you and
Mr Napoli?
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR O’BRYAN:
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR O’BRYAN:
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
MR O’BRYAN:
Certainly one of them would be a Ms Diana Di-
Sorry, how do you spell her surname?
D-i hyphen C-o-r-r-a-d-i-o.
She was the personal assistant - - Yes.
- - - and a witness to you storing many dozen
bottles of wine in cupboards?
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR O’BRYAN:
Bringing wine into the premises, yes.
And storing them in cupboards and in the
storeroom?
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR O’BRYAN:
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR O’BRYAN:
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
Can you name the witness?
Corradio – was an executive assistant at the time.
MR O’BRYAN:
20
My administrative staff at the time.
Who?
12
17
I had various cabinets and cupboards where such
– and just in corners of the office.
8
10
I wouldn’t have done it one occasion.
Correct.
Any other witnesses?
Not that I could name.
And where is she today, do you know?
She’s a – a part-time employee at the
Department of – what was Primary Industries.
27
MR O’BRYAN:
28
MR HILL:
Yes.
Yes, Mr Hill.
So at some time around late November/December of
29
2009, you would have had somewhere between 15 and
30
seventeen and a half dozen bottles of wine in your office
251
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
or storeroom?
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
Well, how many were left at home?
MR HILL:
7
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
10
I couldn’t give you an exact number but there
would have been dozens on occasions left at home.
6
8
Or at my home.
Did you have a lockup garage?
I didn’t – in terms of a lockup to the street
and to the public, yes.
MR HILL:
Yes.
You weren’t worried about leaving those wines
at home?
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
MR HILL:
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
I have some anxiety - - -
Yes.
- - - for doing that on personal reasons, yes.
Well, what were the personal reasons?
Associated with my former wife.
What, she was going to drink them?
She’s an alcoholic.
Right.
But you were still content to leave some
19
dozens of bottles of wine in your garage at times when
20
you weren’t there.
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
On occasions, yes.
Not on occasions.
Yes.
For long periods of time.
On occasions, yes.
For what periods of time are we talking about?
Like potentially months at a time.
Months at a time?
So that makes it a nonsense of
27
you saying that the invoice or delivery docket directing
28
the two dozen bottles go to Mr Nino Napoli’s home address
29
was because you didn’t want them to go to your address
30
because you weren’t home.
252
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
No, that’s not true.
Not true?
The wine in question is a champagne and without
4
getting into too much, my wife – former wife certainly
5
would have – the risk I saw at that time was that my wife
6
would have potentially consumed some of that wine.
7
8
9
MR HILL:
Right.
you carry into work?
MR ROSEWARNE:
10
MR HILL:
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
office.
15
How many of these dozen bottles of wine did
MR HILL:
At varying occasions, six to eight dozen.
Leaving – that’s about half of them?
In terms of single occasions, yes.
What happened to the remaining half of the wines?
I would have eventually taken them into the
Well, when did you eventually take them into the
16
office?
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
Well, 2009, I – I would imagine at that time of
18
year, given the number of functions going on, hopefully
19
prior to Christmas of 2009.
20
holidays of 2010.
21
22
MR HILL:
Right.
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
26
Who from the department knew that you were
doing this?
23
25
If not, probably after the
Mr Napoli.
Mr Napoli, of course.
to his home.
MR ROSEWARNE:
You’re having wine delivered
Who else within the department knew?
I’m not sure anyone else in the department knew
27
other than they knew I was sourcing wine, but they never
28
inquired as to where I was sourcing it from.
29
30
MR HILL:
Who?
Who knew you were sourcing wine within the
department?
253
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
functions where the wine was available.
3
MR HILL:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
8
9
10
Virtually all the executives that attended
Right.
And were you giving wine as gifts?
Correct.
To whom?
Generally stakeholders, the external
representatives, and on occasions, principals.
MR HILL:
Well, again, if this was all legitimate, why not
simply have the invoices made out to the department?
MR ROSEWARNE:
As I indicated earlier, I believed and
11
understood the invoice whilst it was going to Chandler
12
Primary School, clearly identified that these purchases
13
were for the department, and my name was identified as
14
such.
15
16
17
MR HILL:
Why not have the invoices made out to the department
so that the department could pay them?
MR ROSEWARNE:
For a similar reason to the one I gave
18
yesterday in terms of the culture of the organisation, in
19
terms of people interest in the procurement of alcohol,
20
and also the issue associated with each and every
21
hospitality invoice being FOId, and my request and desire
22
to avoid that occurring.
23
MR HILL:
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
MR HILL:
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
27
MR HILL:
28
Right.
So your desire to avoid public scrutiny?
By the media.
By the media?
Correct.
But if they were for genuine functions, you’re not
suggesting that the media wouldn’t understand?
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
MR HILL:
Yes.
I am absolutely suggesting that.
Even members of the media are, so I’m told,
254
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
3
4
5
occasionally imbibe in alcohol.
MR ROSEWARNE:
It’s pretty obvious they don’t accept or assume
public servants should ever do that.
MR HILL:
All right.
All right.
the secretary?
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
Did not.
7
MR HILL:
Why not?
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
You didn’t take this up with
No.
Why not?
Thinking back to the occasion, my answer would
be that the secretary was what I would call a very
10
conservative person and probably would not have condoned
11
what I was doing on the basis that the lack of
12
transparency .....
13
MR HILL:
Yes, of course it wouldn’t have been condoned.
It’s
14
a clear breach of the code of conduct, isn’t it?
15
clear breach of the code of conduct to have invoices made
16
out that misrepresent the nature of the purchase.
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
It’s a
As I indicated, it’s not my understanding there
18
was any intent to do misrepresentation on the basis of
19
what you have put up on the screen, as I have indicated,
20
I am very surprised that my name and the department is
21
not identified on the basis that the delivery dockets
22
clearly do such, and I ensured that Chandler Primary was
23
reimbursed for such purchases.
24
25
26
MR HILL:
How did you ensure that Chandler Park Primary School
was reimbursed?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I conversed with Mr Paul on occasions and with
27
Mr Napoli to indicate that I wanted a grant made to the
28
school for the value.
29
MR HILL:
And how much was the grant that the school got?
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
I would have been associated with the amount of
255
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
the invoices.
MR HILL:
All right.
So we could go through the school
3
records and the Department of Education records and we
4
would find evidence of you authorising a grant for these
5
wines?
6
7
MR ROSEWARNE:
Whether you would fin – sorry, just – I think
there are two parts to your question.
8
MR HILL:
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
One is - - -
.....
The first one was in terms of the payment to
10
the school;
11
amount or an amount ..... like yesterday where it was
12
rounded up to a different amount.
13
14
15
16
MR HILL:
So you don’t worry about public monies.
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
22
23
Right.
MR HILL:
That would buy a classroom of primary kids their
lunches for the day.
MR ROSEWARNE:
The department is not in the business of buying
lunches for primary kids.
MR HILL:
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
28
Administratively - I’m not sure how to answer
that.
24
27
On the basis that yesterday we were talking
about 170-odd dollars.
MR HILL:
20
Near enough
is good enough, is it?
17
19
I can’t confirm whether it was for the exact
I know.
Yes?
You could do a lot ..... for $170.
That’s your opinion, sir.
Where’s the accountability if we just sort of
round up figures and make up amounts?
MR ROSEWARNE:
On the basis the department’s budget is in the
29
billions of dollars, when you’re asking me to justify the
30
rounding up in the tens and hundreds of dollars, relative
256
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
3
to the department’s budget I would say it’s not material.
MR HILL:
So that’s your attitude, is it?
It’s not material
because the department has a large budget?
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR O’BRYAN:
No, I didn’t say that.
But that’s what you mean, isn’t it?
No, it’s not what I said.
If there was a grant, and based on your evidence
8
we wouldn’t expect to find the ..... in the grant as to
9
reimburse for wine, would we?
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR O’BRYAN:
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR O’BRYAN:
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
No.
What would we expect to find?
Look, I can’t recall.
Could be - - It would be a grant to the school for – like I
15
think examples yesterday where it described it as
16
administrative or something of that ilk.
17
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
And in terms of your evidence about perhaps
18
trying to avoid, I don’t know, reputation or damage to
19
the department in the eyes of the media because of wine
20
consumption - - -
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR O’BRYAN:
Correct.
- - - where does that put Chandler Primary
23
School, who on the face of it has purchased a whole lot
24
of wine?
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
My understanding was that Chandler Primary was
26
already purchasing wine from Trembath and Taylor for
27
associated school purposes and for entities associated
28
with the school, so this was an extension of a practice
29
that was already in place.
30
MR HILL:
You’re not suggesting that Chandler Primary School
257
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
was purchasing wines to the quantities that we have just
2
seen you purchasing?
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
I’m unaware of the quantities, but I am
4
suggesting Mr Paul informed me that the school and
5
entities connected with the school were already obtaining
6
wine via such means.
7
MR HILL:
And if we come to hear in later evidence that it was
8
about two dozen at a time, again would pale in
9
insignificance to the quantities that you’re billing up
10
11
to the Chandler Primary School.
MR ROSEWARNE:
That would be an unknown on the basis of how
12
frequently those purchase were being relative to the
13
purchases that I made, so I can’t answer that question.
14
MR HILL:
Well, you were worried about your own reputation and
15
the department’s reputation, did you give any slight
16
concern to Chandler Primary School and its reputation?
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
Yes, and that Mr Paul was an adequate person to
make that judgment.
MR HILL:
Right.
You didn’t counsel him against making that
judgment because it might reflect poorly on his school?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Given Mr Paul’s experience and seniority within
the principal class I did not make that judgment.
MR HILL:
You didn’t think that the public might be less
24
understanding of a primary school getting huge quantities
25
of wine than it might be the department if they were for
26
proper departmental purposes?
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
My understanding is those transactions would
28
have been transparent to the school counsel at Chandler
29
Park Primary School.
30
MR HILL:
Yes.
But not transparent to anybody else.
258
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
To Chandler Park Primary School as you
2
indicated yesterday around accountability and schools
3
councils.
4
MR HILL:
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
6
7
But not transparent to anybody else.
Well, it would never be transparent to anyone
else.
MR HILL:
Well, it would be transparent if the invoice had
8
been directed to the Department of Education, attention
9
Mr Rosewarne.
10
11
Then we would know, by looking at the
invoice itself who purchased the wines.
MR ROSEWARNE:
I indicated previously, and I will say it
12
again, I am surprised that that invoice reflects the lack
13
of detail regarding the department’s purchase of such.
14
15
16
MR HILL:
Well, the only detail that you say is missing from
the tax invoice would be the delivery address.
MR ROSEWARNE:
No.
My name and my address were clearly
17
identified as the recipients of the wine for the delivery
18
purposes.
19
MR HILL:
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
22
Yes.
And my assumption and understanding was that
same information was reflected on the invoice.
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, up on the screen is the altered tax invoice
23
purporting to be a delivery docket to Mr Napoli.
24
recall receiving a similar document, namely a tax invoice
25
crossed out delivery docket replaced in handwriting, and
26
delivered to your address?
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
Not as such.
Do you
I would have received delivery
28
dockets, Commissioner, that clearly had my name and
29
address identified on them.
30
MR HILL:
Now, 2009 - - 259
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR O'BRYAN:
Just before you go on, you said all the
2
executives knew of the wine.
3
drinking substantial amounts of Italian red and white
4
wines?
5
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR O'BRYAN:
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
10
Who would you suggest we talk to?
Executives that were in my office, and other
executives in the department at that time.
7
9
What executives will recall
I’m after names.
I would have to reflect on that, commissioner,
and I can give you the names.
MR O'BRYAN:
Could you reflect on that?
Because I would
11
imagine you would remember, as an executive, that from
12
time to time Mr Rosewarne produced some pretty good
13
Italian wines of various varieties.
14
getting at.
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
MR O'BRYAN:
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR O'BRYAN:
19
I agree.
So can you think of that before you finish today?
Yes.
I mean, you said all the executives.
executives are we talking about?
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR O'BRYAN:
That’s what I’m
How many
Dozens?
In the department, yes.
Yes.
Well, I’m surprised you can’t think readily
22
of the names of some executives you knew well who would
23
have partaken.
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
MR O'BRYAN:
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
27
As I’m sitting here - - Yes.
Commissioner, I can start to identify names of
individuals.
28
MR O'BRYAN:
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
MR O'BRYAN:
Well, can you identify them for me?
Mr Erle Burke.
I’m sorry, Al Burke.
260
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
Erle Burke, E-r-l-e, Burke.
Hunter, Mr Jim Myles, Ms Claire Britchford.
3
MR O'BRYAN:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR O'BRYAN:
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR O'BRYAN:
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR O'BRYAN:
How do you spell that?
B-r-i-t-c-h-f-o-r-d.
Yes.
Mr Steve Locquet, L-o-c-q-u-e-t.
Yes.
From memory, Mr John Hayes. Mr Wayne Benbow.
Yes.
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR O'BRYAN:
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR O'BRYAN:
14
MR ROSEWARNE: Ms Dale Suget.
15
MR O'BRYAN:
16
have - - -
MR O'BRYAN:
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR O'BRYAN:
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
26
27
Been at various functions.
- - - partaken of the Italian wines?
Yes.
Yes.
Thank you.
Yes.
And how would they know that they were drinking
these Italian wines rather than some other Italian wines?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I’m not sure how often they would have drunk
Italian wines.
MR HILL:
No, how would they know they were drinking this
seventeen and a half dozen?
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
Ms Sue Christophers.
And these are all people you’re pretty sure would
18
25
Mr John Allman.
Yes.
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
Mr Darrell Fraser.
Yes.
17
23
Mr Adam Todd
I don’t know how to answer that.
Well, when you provided the wines at these
functions, did you say, you know, “This is from Trembath
261
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
and Taylor, this is an $83 bottle of fine Italian wine
2
that I had selected and purchased and delivered to my
3
home address, and which I’ve carried in here for you to
4
consume”?
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
The identification in the way you described it
6
would not have occurred, and I don’t believe the $83
7
bottles would have been consumed that way as opposed to
8
have been given out as gifts.
9
10
MR HILL:
Right.
MR ROSEWARNE:
Well, who did you give them to?
I indicated earlier that, in all likelihood, it
11
would have been external stakeholders, representatives
12
from external firms such as unions and principal – and
13
parent associations, and principals.
14
15
MR HILL:
Well, tell me the name of one person that you gave
an $83 bottle of wine to?
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
20
Well, no, just one.
department?
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
28
I couldn’t recall.
And was it a personal gift from yourself or from the
21
27
I couldn’t recall off – from - - -
It was from the department.
And was it wrapped?
Yes.
It was in a wine bottle holder.
And did it have, what, a card with it?
No, it would not have.
Well, how would they know that it was from the
department rather than from yourself?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Well, in giving them, whether I or one of the
29
other executives gave them that wine, it would have been
30
a presentation thanking them for their service - - 262
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR HILL:
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
6
Right.
- - - and involvement with the department.
And for how many years did you give gifts of wine?
I can’t recall.
And you can’t recall one person that you gave a gift
of wine to?
7
MR ROSEWARNE:
8
MR HILL:
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
I will reflect on that.
All right.
Just take a moment and reflect.
Yes?
There were two gentlemen who were present at
10
the primary and secondary principals associations at the
11
time whose names I can’t recall, but I will.
12
believe they would have been recipients of such wine.
13
MR HILL:
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
MR HILL:
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
27
MR HILL:
28
29
30
I would
Were they?
I said I believe they would have been, yes.
Italian wine?
Yes.
One bottle each?
Yes.
What about the other hundred and forty bottles?
They weren’t all $83 bottles.
No, I know.
There were 12.
Correct.
Where did all the other bottles end up?
They would have been given out as gifts.
Where were the functions that you took them to?
Yes.
Some of them were in 2 Treasury Place.
How often did you have a function at 2
Treasury Place that - - MR ROSEWARNE:
At – at Christmas time, around that, there
would have been a number of occasions a week.
263
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
3
4
MR HILL:
Right.
occasions?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Depending on the number of people that were
going to be in attendance.
5
MR HILL:
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
And how much wine did you provide on those
And they weren’t catered for?
They would have been catered for in terms of
food, yes.
8
MR HILL:
Yes, but not catered for in terms of alcohol?
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
No.
If I had indicated that I could supply the
10
alcohol, there would have been soft drinks and the like,
11
and beer supplied, and food supplied.
12
MR HILL:
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
15
16
Who would supply the beer?
the administrative side of the function.
MR HILL:
So nothing wrong with alcohol in terms of beer being
provided for.
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
19
In terms of the dollar value, no.
Right.
So it’s not the fact of alcohol.
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
22
MR O'BRYAN:
It’s the dollar value.
Yes.
Commissioner, we tender those three pages.
Yes.
Can you – let me see, we’ve got 264 and 5
and 6.
24
MR HILL:
25
MR O'BRYAN:
26
EXHIBIT #18 PAGES 264 TO 266
27
MR HILL:
28
It’s the
dollar value that you were trying to hide.
20
23
Whoever was organising the function in terms of
264 – and 6.
So 264 to 266, exhibit 18.
In December 2009 did you have a function again at
the Oakleigh Bowling Club?
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
MR HILL:
I would believe so, yes.
And was that one that you got catered for?
264
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
I can’t recall the details but I would believe
2
so.
3
part of the catering team, as such.
4
5
6
7
8
9
MR HILL:
There was one function where my former wife was a
Right.
occasions did you purchase wines through them?
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
And on each of those occasions would we be looking
at similar quantities and price amounts?
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
What quantities would we be looking at in
respect to those?
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
MR HILL:
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
I don’t believe so.
Right.
13
18
From memory, I would believe it to be four or
five occasions.
10
12
Just on Trembath and Taylor wines, how many
I would assume smaller quantities.
Half?
I don’t recall the exact details.
Well, why do you assume that they would be less?
Because I was surprised by the volume of the
two invoices you put on the screen.
MR HILL:
All right.
Did you have Mr Foley put on the
20
function at the Oakleigh Bowling Club in December of
21
2009?
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
MR HILL:
26
I did, indeed.
This was after the success of the previous year.
Correct.
And could we have page 274 on the screen, please.
This is you working at home?
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR HILL:
Yes.
Well, potentially.
It’s a home email address.
Well, it’s a home email address in 2009.
29
likelihood is you would have been seated at your new
30
desk.
265
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
The
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
3
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
No.
I don’t believe so given the time of the
email.
MR HILL:
No.
Right.
But it’s from you – your personal email
address to Mr Foley?
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
6
MR HILL:
Correct.
Were there any – I withdraw that.
In respect to
7
your work email address through the Education Department,
8
they could be subject to scrutiny by way of audit or by
9
someone looking at them.
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
12
If necessary.
Much harder to do such in terms of
your private email address.
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
15
If necessary.
Yes.
By comparison, yes.
So here we are, you’re writing on 7 December
2009 at 2.52 in the afternoon – it’s a Monday.
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
Correct.
18
Pete, hello, my new best mate.
Similar to last year, can
19
we get some decent wine in?
20
from last year.
21
have Wynns shiraz or cab sauv shiraz –
22
etcetera:
23
White wines, can we get Marlborough NZ sauv blanc at the
24
mid-price end.
25
etcetera –
26
and a Wolf Blass Chardonnay.
27
staff five, plus band –
28
etcetera -
29
five 50/50 red white drinkers.
30
rough numbers are Chris and mates and staging –
I have copied and pasted
Some things never change;
wine.
Can we
Gisson Stoneleigh –
Roughly 45 people, plus bar
In regard funding, my
266
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
etcetera, etcetera –
2
$2000.
3
Drinks over bar, $1500, miscellaneous, $500.
4
plus GST $620, grand total $6820.
5
Food caterers, $2000, bowls, as in lawn! $200.
Then if one corrects the spelling error:
6
Invoice via email back to JR –
7
JR is you, isn’t it?
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
10
Total 6200,
It is.
Continuing:
11
DEECD, Moonee Ponds West Primary School, Athol Street,
12
Moonee Ponds, Vic, 3039.
13
services for various DEECD events during November ’09.
14
Terms –
15
etcetera:
16
Trust this makes sense.
17
address, please.
18
Invoice for event management
Email invoice back to this
Regards, your best ma.
And then we can just finish off by looking at page
19
275.
20
swanslegend@hotmail, subject function and invoice, and he
21
starts off:
22
Mate, here it is.
23
I will get on to the wine situation straight away.
24
Cheers, Pete.
25
26
Mr Foley clearly is responding to you at
Now, before we start looking at invoices, was this a
departmental function?
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR HILL:
29
30
If any problem, please give me a call.
It was.
The wine that you had purchased from Trembath and
Taylor wasn’t to be used at this function?
MR ROSEWARNE:
No.
I don’t believe so.
267
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
3
4
5
MR HILL:
Because you’re clearly asking Mr Foley to provide
the wine.
MR ROSEWARNE:
On the basis I don’t believe we could have
taken wine in to the premises.
MR HILL:
All right.
And you’re asking him to make certain
6
that the invoice comes back to you at your private email
7
address - - -
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
- - - rather than your work email address.
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
12
Correct.
Correct.
And you’re asking him to invoice the Moonee Ponds
West Primary School.
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
Hilton.
17
at that time.
18
19
MR HILL:
Correct.
The principal was whom?
I’m unsure at that time.
Previously it was Mr
I’m not sure whether he was still there or not
Right.
And you’re giving instructions as to how the
invoice should look - - -
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
Correct.
- - - by saying the invoice should be for event
22
management services for various DEECD events during
23
November two thousand and – well, ’09 – 2009;
24
right?
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
27
28
29
30
is that
Correct.
Which meant you were instructing him to create a
false invoice, an invoice that, on its face, told a lie?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Well, hosting a Christmas party could be
designated an event.
MR HILL:
Yes.
268
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
Yes.
But the Christmas party was to be in December, not
3
November, and it was the Christmas party – one event, not
4
various events.
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
6
MR HILL:
Yes.
Come now, Mr Rosewarne, you were in the Education
7
Department.
You must be able to read, with respect,
8
English:
9
Invoice for event management services for various
10
department events during November ’09.
11
That’s a lie.
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR HILL:
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
18
No, it’s not incorrect.
MR HILL:
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
I don’t have any problem.
Right.
So it is a falsehood?
It’s not what occurred in regard an event being
in December, I agree.
23
MR HILL:
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
It’s not true.
And it’s not numerous events, it was a single
event.
26
MR HILL:
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR HILL:
30
I indicated it’s incorrect.
of it as a falsehood?
20
29
It’s incorrect, yes.
Well, what problem do you have with the description
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
It’s a lie.
It’s a lie, a falsehood.
19
22
It’s incorrect, yes.
Yes.
And they are your words as - - I believe, yes.
- - - emailed to Mr Foley and they are your
instructions as to how he is to construct the invoice.
MR ROSEWARNE:
Correct.
269
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
3
MR HILL:
And if we go to 276, please.
from Caravan Music.
MR ROSEWARNE:
Here is an invoice
Is that Mr Foley’s business?
As I indicated yesterday, yes.
When Mr Foley
4
did the first function, he didn’t have that business name
5
or company registered.
6
occurred, he did have it, yes.
7
MR HILL:
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
By the time the second function
And the invoice correctly follows your directions.
It does.
The invoice is to DEECD, Moonee Ponds West Primary
10
School, Athol Street, Moonee Ponds, which is what you had
11
told him to do.
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR HILL:
Correct.
It’s for the provision of goods and services
14
supplied during the month of November 2009.
15
quite what you had told him, but it’s similar, yes?
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
That’s not
It’s similar, yes.
And then under the description:
18
Event management services for various DEECD events
19
during the month of November 2009.
20
So he has picked up your words almost exactly, yes?
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
Correct.
And the total is for $6820?
Correct.
Which is significant because in terms of your rough
25
numbers which came to a grand total of $6820, his event
26
invoice comes to exactly the same amount.
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
I believe the numbers on the previous email
28
were a cut and paste from previous conversations with Mr
29
Foley.
30
MR HILL:
270
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
In regard funding, my rough numbers are Chris and mates
2
and staging, etcetera, 2000, food caterers, 2000.
3
You were giving him rough round figures?
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
No.
That’s why I’m indicating those
5
references, those descriptions there, I believe, are from
6
previous emails that he would have sent to me or
7
indicated to me in terms of the people involved in
8
putting on the event.
9
10
MR HILL:
Right.
MR ROSEWARNE:
And I have used those to put a dollar value
11
alongside them I believe subsequent to conversations with
12
Mr Foley.
13
MR HILL:
But, in any event, if we look at page 277, you will
14
see that the Moonee Ponds West Primary School has paid
15
the invoice for $6820 rendered to it by Caravan Music
16
Event Management at your direction?
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
Correct.
And we see by the school principal’s signature that
19
Mr Tony Hilton was still at Moonee Ponds West Primary
20
School at the time.
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
25
Someone who you knew well.
and Mr Fraser jointly?
MR ROSEWARNE:
27
MR HILL:
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
Someone who I knew, yes.
Did this Christmas function – it was put on by you
26
29
Correct.
Yes.
Did it have anything to do with Mr Nino Napoli?
He would have been a member of my executive so
I assume he would have been in attendance, yes.
MR HILL:
Yes.
But did he have any part to play in the
271
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
arrangement of this function?
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
6
Unlikely that he would - - -
function.
MR ROSEWARNE:
8
MR HILL:
Yes.
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
Possibly, yes.
And Mr Napoli didn’t work for you directly at
this time.
10
13
Unlikely.
- - - seeing that it was your and Mr Fraser’s joint
7
9
Not that I recall.
No, he did not.
He worked in a different area.
He worked in the finance area reporting to the
chief finance officer.
MR HILL:
Yes.
Could we have page 280 up.
Here’s you, Mr
15
Rosewarne, from your private address emailing Mr Napoli
16
at his private address on Tuesday, 8 December 2009.
17
Attachment, Moonee Ponds West Primary School document:
18
Nino, hope mum is okay.
19
invoice for Moonee Ponds West Primary School.
20
forward this to Tony for processing, please, or do you
21
want me to do it?
22
So you got Mr Napoli to process the invoice.
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
Let us know.
Attached is
Will you
Talk soon, Jeff.
By processing, forwarded it to Mr Hilton.
Yes.
Why was the invoice not sent directly to the school?
Because I wanted to ensure that if the school
26
was paying the invoice that the school was also going to
27
be reimbursed and by having the invoice and having it
28
processed out to the school, I could ensure the school
29
was going to be reimbursed for those funds.
30
MR HILL:
Was the school reimbursed?
272
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
4
And how did you ensure that?
MR HILL:
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
I would have asked Mr Napoli to make a payment
to the school.
5
7
I would hope so.
Of how much?
Well, I assume to the value of the invoice,
thereabouts.
MR HILL:
Well, it’s not in the email.
Did you ask him to
reimburse the school?
MR ROSEWARNE:
We – I would assume we had a conversation or
there are other emails to that effect.
MR HILL:
You assume?
Is that the best you can do, Mr
Rosewarne, in respect to accountability of public moneys?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I would not have allowed the situation whereby
15
the school made the payment for a central expense and not
16
be reimbursed.
17
MR HILL:
Well, of course, you wouldn’t because the school
18
would kick up a fuss and it would come back on you
19
because it would become apparent to the secretary that
20
you were organising false invoices to be sent.
21
22
23
24
25
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
time, no.
MR HILL:
But that’s what would have happened if the school
hadn’t been paid.
MR ROSEWARNE:
If the school hadn’t have been paid, I assume
they would have raised the issue.
27
MR HILL:
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
That wouldn’t have been my rationale at the
Right.
So where did the grant come from?
From central funds.
From central funds.
So central funds, what, has a
large sum of unallocated money which you can get hold of
273
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
and give to a school so that the school can pay wine
2
bills?
3
4
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
No, that’s not what I indicated yesterday when
you asked me a similar question.
MR HILL:
All - - -
Well, tell me what the central fund was called
6
whereby you could siphon off money out of it to pay for
7
wine or to pay for functions.
8
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
What was that fund called?
Each office, each business unit in the
department had a budget allocation each year.
There were
10
then programs associated with grants to schools but the
11
funds in question would have been an allocation to Mr
12
Fraser’s office and to Mister – my office and my
13
assumption is I would have made sure that the payment
14
arose out of funds that were allocated to my particular
15
office.
16
17
MR HILL:
Well, how much in funds were allocated to your
office for discretionary spending in 2009?
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
22
23
I couldn’t - - -
Approximately.
I couldn’t answer that question.
Well, were there funds allocated to your office by
the department for discretionary spending by your office?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Not for – I wouldn’t use the word
24
“discretionary”.
25
to maintain services and to operate and, in doing that,
26
managers had the responsibility to manage within their
27
budget and try and ascertain at times whether there were
28
funds available for a variety of purposes.
29
30
MR HILL:
There were – there were funds provided
So in the books of the Education Department, what
would – entry would we expect to see that acknowledges
274
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
the fact that the Moonee Ponds West Primary School had
2
been reimbursed?
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
There would be a transaction on the ledger of
4
the department indicating that a grant had been paid to
5
that school.
6
7
8
9
MR HILL:
Yes.
And would the purpose of that grant be
disclosed?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I’m trying to answer in terms of disclosed, it
– I couldn’t ascertain what the description would be that
10
would have generated out of Mr Napoli’s area where all
11
grants to schools would have been generated in terms of
12
the description that was actually used.
13
MR HILL:
Well, what we can be certain of is that the grant
14
wouldn’t disclose the money was to be for a Christmas
15
function held by you and Mr Fraser.
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
I would agree.
Grants were normally given to schools for the
18
benefit of schools in the provision of education to
19
children.
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
I indicated to you yesterday that’s not a
21
correct answer on the basis that there were occasions
22
where schools would have made payments on behalf of
23
departmental activities that related to head or central
24
office.
25
schools is incorrect.
26
MR HILL:
So to say the only payments were exclusively for
Well, apart from the invoices that we’ve been
27
looking at that you’ve been involved in, what other
28
payments would schools have been making for departmental
29
expenses?
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
I would have to reflect on that, but there
275
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
would be a whole series of payments.
MR HILL:
All right.
Take your time and reflect.
You were
3
the deputy secretary.
4
occasions would schools have been paying moneys out of
5
their bank accounts on behalf of the department?
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
And the question is, on what
I could think of various student welfare
7
programs whereby the department was providing a service
8
to a range of schools, and they would have arranged for a
9
particular school to make the payments for those services
10
to do with – as I indicated, student welfare.
11
example, speech therapists, psyches, those type of
12
people.
13
14
MR HILL:
Yes.
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
MR HILL:
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
20
21
All activities related to that school or
schools within that school’s area?
15
19
On behalf of the department.
Yes.
Or the program area running that program.
That’s completely different from purchases of wine,
Christmas functions and the like, isn’t it?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I was answering the question you presented to
me.
22
MR HILL:
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
Right.
Well, can you think of any other examples?
If I had the time to reflect, I’m sure there
24
are many others.
25
the department.
26
identify others.
27
For
MR HILL:
It’s some four years since I’ve been in
But, with reflection, I’m sure I could
See, it appears to us that what you’ve done is taken
28
what might, at least at one stage, have been a legitimate
29
process of having banker schools and you’ve corrupted
30
that process for your own purposes.
276
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Would you agree with
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
3
4
5
that?
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
Yes.
And can we agree that those other purposes
were dishonest?
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
10
I would use the
word “used” it for other purposes, yes.
6
9
You’ve used the “corrupted”.
No.
Deceptive?
For departmental functions and other
activities.
MR HILL:
If we could just turn to page 279.
This is a note
11
on a “with complements” slip from Nino Napoli:
12
Tony, as discussed, please arrange payment.
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
Nino.
Correct.
You may not have seen that before, but it seems to
15
relate to the payment of this money, because if we look
16
at 278, page 278, here’s the invoice from the Caravan
17
Music.
18
Primary School, and they have stamped it.
19
has paid – one of the stamps “Paid, 16 December 2009.”
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
It has clearly been directed to Moonee Ponds West
And the stamp
Correct.
Another stamp at the top has “Entered, 16.12.09” and
22
you would understand that to mean that they’ve entered in
23
the books of account of the school.
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
MR HILL:
Correct, correct.
And the larger stamp which has:
26
Moonee Ponds West Primary School, I’ve checked the
27
details of this invoice and now authorise the payment of
28
this invoice.
29
30
Sub-program 7054, CASES21 code.”
CASES21 is the computer program that these schools
operated on.
277
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
It’s the administrative and finance program,
yes.
3
MR HILL:
Yes.
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
7054 is a code within that computer program.
I assume so.
Program name:
6
Special project or projects.
7
signature, Anthony Hilton.
8
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
to get from Caravan Music was for a Christmas party - - -
15
MR HILL:
Bowling Club?
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
I don’t recall speaking to Mr Hilton.
Did you give him instructions to call the program
name “Special projects”?
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
I don’t - - -
- - - held by you and Mr Fraser at the Oakleigh
17
25
He did not.
Did you tell him that the invoice that he was going
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
I don’t believe so.
Did he go to the Christmas part?
14
16
Date, 11.12.09.
Was Mr Hilton in on this Christmas part?
10
13
Expense code, convenor’s
I did not.
And what does the – do you see where he’s signed?
Correct.
He has signed as convenor.
What does convenor mean?
I’m sure that’s a reference that the school was
using.
MR HILL:
Well, it’s a rubber stamp that they’ve had made.
27
There’s no reference there, is there, that these goods
28
were for you?
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
MR HILL:
No.
And Mr Fraser, and for a Christmas party?
278
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
No.
2
MR HILL:
And if anyone looked at that invoice, they
No.
3
would immediately conclude that Caravan Music had put on
4
a number of events for the department during the month of
5
November 2009, and that the convenor of those events had
6
been Mr Hilton.
7
MR ROSEWARNE:
I agree with the first part of your statement.
8
I’m not sure I agree with the second part of the
9
statement.
If Mr Hilton, as principal, signed it as
10
convenor, which I believe is a reference used inside the
11
school, the fact that it indicates that it’s DCD events,
12
I don’t believe Mr Hilton, by default, would have been a
13
convenor of a DCD event.
14
15
16
17
18
19
MR HILL:
But that’s what the document seems to say on the
face of it.
MR ROSEWARNE:
Which I believe is a school-based document, or
a term used within the school for its activities.
MR HILL:
More reason to have the accounting properly done
within the department.
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
Would you not agree?
With the benefit of hindsight, yes.
Now, before we leave the function, when you put
22
together the rough numbers, you had the food caterers
23
down at $2000.
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
MR HILL:
Yes.
Yes?
I indicated - - -
No, I’m not interested in what you indicated.
26
interested in your answering the questions.
27
food caterers down as $2000.
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
Correct.
We’re
You put the
Is that right?
Yes.
And Mr Foley, through Caravan Music, invoiced the
total of the bill to the school.
Yes?
279
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
3
And the school paid the total of the bill to Mr
Foley, or Caravan Music.
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
8
9
10
11
Yes.
Correct.
And that amount included $2000 to the food caterers.
I believe so.
The problem with that is, who were the food
caterers?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I believe on that occasion my wife and an
associate from the primary school undertook that task.
MR HILL:
So did that mean you had to get the $2000 back from
12
Caravan Music once they had been paid by the primary
13
school?
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
Or prior to.
Or prior to.
Yes.
Why did you simply not have the catering paid for
18
directly by the department, rather than going through
19
this, again I suggest, circuitous route?
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
Trying to reflect back at the time, my answer
21
would be that my wife indicated that she could do it at a
22
reasonable cost and do a better job than the previous
23
providers.
24
MR HILL:
Yes.
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
Now answer the question.
Could you ask it again then please.
Why did you not have the department pay your wife
27
directly for the catering rather than hide it in a
28
Caravan Music invoice, paid for by the school?
29
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
For the same reasons I have indicated earlier
about the culture within the organisation in terms of
280
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
awareness of various activities being undertaken, and on
2
the basis, again around FOI access.
3
MR HILL:
Forget the culture in the department, you have got
4
60-odd people from the department at this function.
5
must have all known about the function.
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
8
9
10
11
Yes.
They
They certainly did.
Well, they knew about the culture;
they were
there.
MR ROSEWARNE:
They were part of the culture of the
organisation, I agree.
MR HILL:
All right.
I will ask again:
Why not have the
12
caterers paid for directly rather than have Mr Foley bill
13
for it, the school pay for it and then you have to get
14
the money back from Mr Foley?
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
For the same answers I have given previously,
16
that I didn’t want the transparency on that activity
17
going into central office, for the reasons I have
18
indicated previously regarding the culture of the
19
organisation, and the nature in which FOI requests are
20
requested and dealt with.
21
22
MR HILL:
What part of the transaction didn’t you want
disclosed at head office?
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
I think - - -
The whole – the fact of the Christmas party?
The
25
fact that alcohol was served?
26
provided the catering supposedly for 2000-odd dollars?
27
28
29
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
Or the fact that your wife
On the basis of all – the primary reason being
the fact that it was a Christmas party.
MR HILL:
Did you disclose to any person within the department
the fact that your wife was going to do the catering?
281
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
My wife was present at the function with a
2
friend from the school and catered for the function
3
during the function.
4
the people in attendance.
5
MR HILL:
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
10
11
12
13
So she was seen and known by all of
Did you disclose that she was getting paid for it?
Yes.
To whom?
Well, to anyone that asked the question, but
certainly to Mr Fraser and Mr Foley.
Obviously I was the
basis that he was receiving the funds.
MR HILL:
Why did you not have the school make out two
cheques?
MR ROSEWARNE:
One to Mr Foley and one to your wife?
Certainly my wife would not have had a
14
registered business name or ABN which would have enabled
15
the school to make a payment.
16
MR HILL:
That doesn’t stop the school from making a payment.
17
It just means they have to withdraw the tax from it, the
18
top margin or .....?
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
25
I’m not sure of that.
Well, did your wife get the money?
I believe she got paid, yes.
All right.
Did you pay her?
I can’t recall whether I paid her or Mr Foley
paid her.
MR HILL:
Well, just think about that for a moment.
26
Foley telephone you?
27
had been paid?
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
Did Mr
Or make contact with you when he
I can’t recall such.
Well – how did you receive the money for the
caterers back?
282
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
I just indicated I don’t know that I received
2
it or whether Mr Foley paid my wife direct, or whether he
3
paid me and I paid my wife, which would have been, I
4
assume, in cash.
5
6
7
8
9
MR HILL:
Who was the – so you think Mr Foley might have paid
in cash?
MR ROSEWARNE:
been paid on the night.
MR HILL:
On the night?
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
12
13
14
I would believe that my former wife would have
Yes.
What about the person who was doing the catering
with her?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I also believe she would have been paid on the
night or the next day.
15
MR HILL:
And what catering was done?
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
Well, I can’t recall the specifics, but
17
certainly it was finger food, main courses, desserts – a
18
full meal.
19
MR HILL:
So for some 45 people plus, your wife and the other
20
person prepared finger food and a – what was it?
21
course meal?
22
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
A three
It would have been a three course meal at
least, yes.
24
MR HILL:
And how long did it take your wife to prepare that?
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR HILL:
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
MR HILL:
A number of days.
All right.
Where was your bank account in 2009?
I assume primarily with the NAB.
And what about your wife’s bank account?
It was a joint account.
Joint account?
283
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
Correct.
We will turn this up later, Mr Rosewarne, but if we
3
could have a look at 297, see whether this refreshes your
4
memory.
5
before, but the investigators have traced an amount of
6
$2104 being credited to a Rosewarne account, the
7
reference being “function balance Mr Peter Foley” and it
8
went into account number 59-318-7025.
9
suggest, would it not, that Caravan Music or Mr Foley via
10
electronic transfer transferred that sum of money into an
11
account?
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
This is not a document that you would have seen
That would tend to
I believe, looking at those numbers, that would
13
have been a VTU credit account that my wife and I had.
14
Yes.
15
MR HILL:
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
18
19
20
All right.
And that was a joint account?
It was.
And was that the amount of money that was claimed
for the catering?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I can’t recall such, but seeing that amount I
would believe so.
21
MR HILL:
How was that amount calculated?
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
My wife would have kept receipts;
kept records
23
of the costs incurred and the amount of hours her and the
24
other lady incurred.
25
26
27
MR HILL:
What experience did your wife and the other lady
have in catering?
MR ROSEWARNE:
My wife had qualified as a cook and had
28
undertaken such various activities over a long period of
29
time.
30
MR HILL:
All right.
Could we ask you, Mr Rosewarne, to look,
284
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
please, at page 437 which is about to be displayed.
2
you recognise the handwriting?
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
4
MR HILL:
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
6
MR HILL:
7
Italian wines - - -
9
MR HILL:
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
before you?
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
18
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
All right.
What about the ticks on the left-hand
side, are they yours?
MR HILL:
I don’t recall whether they’re mine or not.
And we will turn the page, which is page 438.
Again, it seems a shopping list for Italian wines.
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
MR HILL:
27
That’s not my writing, so I don’t know what
that is.
21
26
What
does that mean?
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
Correct.
And at the bottom, you’ve got “May, Nino.”
20
22
Correct.
The likelihood is you had a catalogue or similar
13
17
Correct.
- - - for purchase?
10
16
That’s mine.
And this seems to be you making a note of various
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
I do.
And whose handwriting is that?
8
12
Do
Correct.
And for what function were those wines being
contemplated for?
MR ROSEWARNE:
Again, I would assume departmental functions,
stakeholder events and the like.
28
MR HILL:
Were they delivered to your home as well?
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
MR HILL:
I would believe so.
In total, there is 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 11 and a
285
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
half, and I’m not certain whether that’s four cases on
2
the bottom line, but, if it is, 15 and a half cases or 15
3
and a half dozen bottles of wine;
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
-
7
MR ROSEWARNE:
8
MR HILL:
It is.
Yes, it is.
- - - bearing in mind that you were surprised by how
substantial the previous order was.
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
12
I haven’t added it up on that screen.
Well, it’s a fairly substantial order, isn’t it - -
6
9
is that right?
I was.
So here we seem to have another one that you’re at
least contemplating purchasing at that time.
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
Correct.
And the prices have gone up somewhat here.
Even
15
you’re blanching at whether it can – whether you can
16
afford it, but six bottles at $500.
17
for the six bottles or were they $500 each?
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
20
I would assume it’s the total.
Right.
Even so, that makes them fairly expensive
bottles of wine.
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
24
Was that the total
Indeed.
What were they for?
They would have been for gifts given the
pricing.
25
MR HILL:
When you say “They would have been”, were they?
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
27
MR HILL:
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
MR O'BRYAN:
I would assume so, yes.
You would assume so.
Can you remember?
I can’t remember.
Then can we - - Was the department secretary involved in or aware
286
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
of the gift giving at the time?
MR ROSEWARNE:
The only answer I can give, Commissioner, is
3
would the departmental secretary have been at functions
4
where gifts such as these bottles of wine would have been
5
given out and my answer would be yes.
6
MR O'BRYAN:
7
MR HILL:
8
9
10
11
12
Yes.
But didn’t you tell us before that the secretary was
somewhat conservative?
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
I did indicate that earlier.
Yes.
Unlikely to readily embrace the large
purchases of bottles of wine.
MR ROSEWARNE:
I think the reference we’re making to the
13
secretary, he has been present when gifts were being
14
given out to key stakeholders and principals and I - - -
15
MR HILL:
Yes, but I’m asking you another question.
The
16
secretary is unlikely to have readily embraced the
17
purchase by you of large quantities of wine.
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR O'BRYAN:
Unlikely.
And you hid it from the secretary.
True, yes.
But if the secretary was there, were there not
22
discussions with the secretary as to who was paying for
23
the wine?
24
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
Well, the assumption would have been the
department was paying for the wine.
26
MR O'BRYAN:
27
MR HILL:
Yes.
Page 439, please.
I think I can indicate, your
28
Honour, we won’t be going beyond Mr Rosewarne today, if
29
that’s of assistance.
30
MR O'BRYAN:
Today.
Yes.
Can we possibly finish?
287
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
I would
J. ROSEWARNE
1
imagine - - -
2
MR HILL:
I’m hoping to finish him, your Honour.
3
MR O'BRYAN:
Yes.
Just on the secretary, I asked you earlier
4
today, Mr Rosewarne, about banker schools and I think you
5
indicated it was a formal term used within the
6
department;
7
MR ROSEWARNE:
8
MR O'BRYAN:
9
Correct.
It would be a term, I take it from that, that
deputy secretaries would have used amongst themselves - -
10
-
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR O'BRYAN:
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR O'BRYAN:
15
MR HILL:
16
you would find it on formal documents.
Correct.
- - - and the secretary?
Correct.
Yes.
Thank you.
Page 439, please, which is up on the screen.
Your
handwriting again?
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
I believe so.
And that looks like your address.
That was an address, yes.
That was an address that you lived at?
Yes, yes.
Yes.
Can you offer any reason as to why you would
23
have written your address on the top of this list of
24
wines?
25
page, 440.
26
Rosewarne.
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR HILL:
29
30
And we will scroll down and then go to the next
And, again, at the top, someone has written
Correct.
So it appears that this wine is for you and to be
delivered at your address.
MR ROSEWARNE:
Probably, yes.
288
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR HILL:
2
MR ROSEWARNE:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
8
9
And it’s for some 12, 18 dozen bottles of wine.
Again, I haven’t added it up and I have - - -
Were they purchased from Trembath and Taylor?
I have no recollection of such.
Do you have a recollection of writing out the list?
No, I don’t.
Do you have a recollection of receiving those types
of wines at your home address - - MR ROSEWARNE:
10
MR HILL:
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
MR HILL:
I don’t - - -
- - - in Murrumbeena?
- - - have a recollection of such, no.
Right.
Page 441, your writing again?
No.
Whose writing is that?
That looks like Mr Napoli’s writing to me.
Can you throw any light on why he would be making a
17
list of wines?
18
can we scroll – yes.
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
23
44 –
All Mr Napoli’s writing?
It is.
Have you seen that list before?
Not that I recall seeing.
Did you have any discussions with him about his
purchasing of wine?
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
MR HILL:
26
And we will look at also page 442.
Not that I recall, no.
Was he purchasing wine from Trembath and Taylor as
well?
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR HILL:
I’m unaware of such.
And you can’t recollect any conversation that you
29
had with him regarding the purchasing of wine from
30
Trembath and Taylor?
289
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
4
MR HILL:
5
6
Not at that time, no.
Or at any time?
No, I can’t.
Even though it seems from the previous document you
must have directed two dozen bottles to go to his place?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I was going to add, in terms of had we ever
7
discussed the fact that I was purchasing wine and having
8
it delivered to my home, yes.
9
10
MR HILL:
Yes.
MR O'BRYAN:
Now, could we have 823 on the screen, please.
While that’s coming up, I will have bundled into
11
an exhibit the Oakleigh Bowling Club documents which I
12
think are documents 274 to 280, which will be exhibit 19.
13
MR HILL:
14
MR O'BRYAN:
15
16
17
and 297.
And 297, is it?
All right.
297 as well, as part
of exhibit 19.
EXHIBIT #19 DOCUMENTS 274 TO 280, AND 297 REGARDING OAKLEIGH
BOWLING CLUB
18
MR O'BRYAN:
19
MR HILL:
20
MR O'BRYAN:
21
exhibit?
22
MR HILL:
23
MR O'BRYAN:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR O'BRYAN:
26
EXHIBIT #20 DOCUMENTS 437 TO 439, AND 440 TO 442
27
MR O'BRYAN:
28
29
30
And are we moving on to a different topic or not?
We are.
All right.
Yes.
So then 437 and 439, they’re an
So I will make 437 and 439 exhibit 20.
And 438.
I’m sorry.
Correct.
So it should be 437 to 439.
Correct?
And 440 to 442
Plus 440 to 442, all exhibit 20.
All right.
Thanks.
Now, what are we going to?
823?
MR HILL:
We’re now at 823.
Can you identify that as Mr
Napoli’s writing?
290
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
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1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
3
I can.
824, please.
Again, do you recognise that as Mr
Napoli’s writing?
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
I can.
None of your writing on that page?
No.
Page 825, Mr Napoli’s writing?
Yes.
None of your writing on that page?
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR HILL:
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
No
Page 826, whose writing is that?
Mr Napoli’s, I believe.
Yes.
827, Mr Napoli’s?
Yes.
828, Mr Napoli’s writing?
Correct.
829, whose writing is that, Mr Rosewarne?
I believe Mr Napoli’s.
Right.
It says:
20
Tax returns for Anne.
21
to current 2012. She missed out on a lot of years.
22
to lawyer and told him.
23
That’s what it says.
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
MR HILL:
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
Sent all I had on file from 2000
Wrote
Correct.
Is that as a result of a discussion with you?
I think that’s a result of a marriage breakup
27
where my former’s wife lawyers requested from Mr Napoli
28
copies of her tax returns.
29
30
MR HILL:
Right.
Could I just go back to page 824, please.
Now, I know that this is – and I just want you to scroll
291
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
down a bit, please, and just stop there.
2
down a little bit more.
3
- - -
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
Now, scroll
You see the word “trip”, t-r-i-p
I do.
- - - equals 15,241.
Then there’s a word that I’m
6
not certain what it is, followed by “Four Diego” on
7
26.10.2009, invoice 186.
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
10
Do you see it?
Correct.
October 2009 is when you travelled overseas, or were
overseas?
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
Yes.
Four Diego is the company of Mr Ralph Barba.
Yes?
Correct.
Then it’s followed by the line “Make a loan
15
agreement, JR.”
16
Napoli at that time is suggesting a loan agreement with
17
JR?
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
Can you offer any suggestion why Mr
I cannot.
A loan agreement, JR.
No?
No, I cannot.
And then if we go to the very foot of that page,
22
this is in Mr Napoli’s writing:
23
Who was on the selection panel, given my conflict?
24
delegated.
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
MR HILL:
29
30
Jeff
I gave to - - Sorry, I’m not with you, sir.
Can you see?
At the bottom there, yes.
I’m - - -
“Who was on the” – it may be “selection”, it might
be - - MR ROSEWARNE:
Yes.
292
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR O'BRYAN:
2
MR HILL:
Could it be “evolution” or not?
Could be – could be “evolution” I think.
In fact, I
3
think “evolution” is what it is when we look up further:
4
Who was on the evolution panel, given my conflict.
5
Were there evolution panels?
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
panels.
Right.
10
MR HILL:
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
15
16
MR HILL:
independent contractors?
21
MR HILL:
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
If I could - - -
Were there panels that dealt with outside
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
Well, were there panels that dealt with
outside independent contractors?
20
28
I’m unsure of the expression “valuation
All right.
MR HILL:
27
Within the department.
panels”.
18
26
Were there valuation panels?
Sorry, when you say valuation - - -
Panels?
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
Were there selection panels?
There would have been numerous selection
Right.
17
19
I don’t know what an evolution panel is.
There were.
Were those panels - - There were panels created - - -
- - - called “selection panels”?
Yes, that would be an expression.
panels to select external providers.
MR HILL:
All right.
Selection
Yes.
And did you sit on any of those
selection panels?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I don’t recall at what time we’re referring to,
and whether I did or didn’t.
MR HILL:
From - - 293
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
3
4
5
From 2009 onwards whilst at the department, did you
sit on selection panels?
MR ROSEWARNE:
MR HILL:
7
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
10
Did Mr Nino Napoli sit on selection panels?
MR HILL:
Did he sit on any selection panels that dealt with
companies or businesses related to him?
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
Sorry, related to?
To himself, that is businesses or companies that
were run by relatives of his?
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR HILL:
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
20
Given his position in the department, I would
assume yes.
11
13
I couldn’t answer that categorically, but I
would say it was unlikely that I sat on selection panels.
6
8
It was unlikely that I sat on selection panels.
I’m unable to answer that.
The next line is,. “Jeff delegated.
I - - -
“guess”.
- - - to who – to evaluate, I - - I can’t read it, I’m sorry.
You can’t read it.
Can you throw any light on what
Mr Napoli - - -
21
MR ROSEWARNE:
22
MR HILL:
No.
- - - is referring to there when he refers to a
23
conflict, which I suggest is clearly a conflict of
24
interest, and you delegating?
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
MR HILL:
27
But certainly he, at no stage, told you that he had
a conflict of interests.
28
MR ROSEWARNE:
29
MR HILL:
30
I have no idea what he’s referring to.
Not that I recall, no.
And if he had have told you that, you would have
acted.
294
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
I believe so.
Well, when you say you believe so, you would have.
3
As the acting secretary, if you were doing your job, have
4
acted.
5
MR ROSEWARNE:
You – you’re referring to the point in time
6
when I signed the travel brief, yes.
7
acting secretary for, I can’t ascertain but I don’t think
8
it makes any difference to my answer.
9
10
MR HILL:
How long I was
Yes.
So you would have acted in some way if he had told
you there was a potential conflict.
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
MR HILL:
Correct.
And, in fact, as you’ve been at pains to tell us,
13
you had not heard until perhaps yesterday of the names
14
Encino Proprietary Limited, Customer Training Proprietary
15
Limited, Quill Proprietary Limited, you had not heard of
16
those names at all.
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
As I indicated to you yesterday, I don’t recall
18
seeing any of the invoices you showed with those company
19
names on it.
20
21
MR HILL:
Yes.
But better than that, you don’t recall hearing
those names at all.
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
I do not.
23
MR HILL:
Let alone knowing that Mr Napoli had members of
No.
24
his family in various ways invoicing the department for
25
large sums of money.
26
MR ROSEWARNE:
27
MR HILL:
28
Yes.
I do not.
On The Ball Personnel, was that a company that
you heard?
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
MR HILL:
I have heard that name.
When?
295
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
During my time in the department.
Yes.
And in what sense?
I couldn’t recall the specific timing of – of
4
seeing it.
5
which, you know, jogged my memory as to whether I had
6
seen any of those company names before.
7
MR HILL:
You showed it up on the screen yesterday
Did you know that they – that company were invoicing
8
the department for work that Ralph Napoli supposedly did
9
at schools?
10
MR ROSEWARNE:
11
MR HILL:
12
Right.
Could we go then to 832, please.
Whose
handwriting is that?
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR HILL:
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
16
MR HILL:
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
21
I was not aware of that.
833.
I believe Mr Napoli’s.
Again, Mr Napoli’s?
Yes.
And 834, whose handwriting is that?
Mr Napoli’s.
Yet it appears to be on your personal stationery.
Correct.
Was that something that he often did, write on your
personal stationery?
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
Not that I’m aware of.
Did you give to him this stationery with the heading
24
Department of Primary Industries, Jeff Rosewarne,
25
Secretary, so that he could make certain notes?
26
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
I assume he visited my office at some stage and
was provided that.
28
MR HILL:
Have you seen this document before?
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
MR HILL:
I have not.
You will see it says:
296
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
Raised four pages of stuff.
2
mentioned.
3
out.
4
the rest of it’s a little unclear.
5
the conversation that you had with Mr Napoli - - MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
Question Whistle-blower Act, need to find
Does that accord with
I don’t recall.
- - - that Chandler was one of the schools mentioned
in either The Age or other documents that you saw?
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
10
or not.
11
MR HILL:
I can’t recall whether Chandler was mentioned
Did you have any dealings with Mr Napoli’s brothers
12
– and I will start with Robert first.
13
dealings with him?
14
15
MR ROSEWARNE:
Did you have any
I’ve met him over the years but not dealings,
no.
16
MR HILL:
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR HILL:
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
21
Chandler was
If we walk –
6
8
Need a copy.
Yes.
So no business dealings?
No.
No dealings through the department?
Not that I’m aware of, no.
And the only times that you can recall having met
him are social functions?
22
MR ROSEWARNE:
23
MR HILL:
24
MR ROSEWARNE:
25
MR HILL:
I would believe so, yes.
And on how many occasions?
Probably one or two, many years ago.
All right.
So they would be fleeting social
26
occasions where there would be a lot of other people
27
present?
28
29
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
I can’t recall the events but they were social
functions.
MR HILL:
What, did you go to his house, for example?
297
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
2
MR HILL:
3
MR ROSEWARNE:
4
MR HILL:
5
No.
Did you know what work he did?
No.
Did you ever meet a person by the name of Steve
Dingley?
6
MR ROSEWARNE:
7
MR HILL:
8
MR ROSEWARNE:
9
MR HILL:
No.
Daniel Calleja?
No.
So it’s unlikely that you provided approval for Mr
10
Napoli to use as providers for the department Carlo
11
Squillacioti?
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR HILL:
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
Yes.
Unlikely, yes.
Steve Dingley?
Yes.
Rob or Robert Napoli?
Could I make the point that you’re asking me
17
about the individuals who I’ve indicated in the main I’ve
18
never met but you’re also indicating I’m assuming some of
19
those people were associated with the companies you put
20
on the screen and then you showed me the invoices.
21
what I suppose I’m indicating is I am not aware of – was
22
not aware of the connections until what you showed on the
23
screen yesterday - - -
24
MR HILL:
Yes.
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
So
But I’m going to - - - - - so whether I approved the engagements,
26
from a business point of view, I can’t recall if there’s
27
invoices and such.
28
way or the other.
29
30
MR HILL:
I’m not able to categorically say one
Well, did you approve Mr Napoli using these people
as external providers?
298
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MR ROSEWARNE:
To the extent I was involved, I would have
2
approved Mr Napoli using various companies as you’ve
3
illustrated.
4
companies?
5
MR HILL:
Was I aware of the individuals behind those
No.
But until yesterday, you had never heard the names,
6
to the best of your recollection, before of Encino
7
Proprietary Limited, Customer Training Proprietary
8
Limited, Quill Investments Proprietary Limited?
9
MR ROSEWARNE:
10
MR HILL:
11
MR ROSEWARNE:
12
Correct.
Nor Daniel Calleja?
Correct.
Until you displayed various invoices
that had my name on them.
13
MR HILL:
Could we just go to page 841.
14
MR ROSEWARNE:
15
MR HILL:
Mr Napoli’s writing?
I believe so.
Can we just go to paragraph 5:
16
Jeff Rosewarne as secretary provided me approval to use
17
Carlo and Steve (Robs) to work with on the basis that
18
prices were fair and good services.
19
Is that true?
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
MR HILL:
I don’t believe so.
22
He also understood I had business arrangements with Carlo
23
and Daniel doing their book or charging rent.
24
Is that true?
25
MR ROSEWARNE:
I understood that Mr Napoli and Mr Carlo and
26
his brother were joint owners of investment properties
27
and that property was the motor vehicle premises - - -
28
MR HILL:
29
MR ROSEWARNE:
30
Yes.
- - - that Mr Carlo and his brother operated
from so I was aware that Mr Napoli had an investment
299
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
property with Carlo and Luigi which was part of a
2
superannuation fund, I believe.
3
MR HILL:
4
MR ROSEWARNE:
5
MR HILL:
6
7
8
9
10
Yes.
I don’t know the reference to Daniel.
Right.
And did you know that he was doing the books
for Carlo?
MR ROSEWARNE:
I may have been told that.
I can’t recall
whether he was the accountant for Carlo or not.
MR HILL:
It goes on:
Hence partly diffuse - - -
11
MR O’BRYAN:
12
MR HILL:
Or “disclose” or something.
I’m sorry.
“Hence” – thank you, sir:
13
Hence partly disclose my conflict of interest with the
14
secretary.
15
declared my interest with the secretary of the department
16
at that time.
17
All Mr Napoli’s writing?
18
MR ROSEWARNE:
19
MR HILL:
20
MR ROSEWARNE:
21
23
MR ROSEWARNE:
26
Indeed.
Well, I was acting secretary from the period -
- MR HILL:
25
I think that good.
And he’s referring to you as the secretary.
22
24
I know it’s not bulletproof but help that I
Yes.
But I - - No.
But could I indicate the period of time -
- MR HILL:
Just answer the question.
He’s referring to you as
the secretary.
27
MR ROSEWARNE:
28
-
29
MR HILL:
30
MR ROSEWARNE:
I was acting secretary for a period of time - -
He’s referring to you as secretary.
Referring to me as acting secretary.
300
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
MR HILL:
No, he’s not.
Look at the document again.
Jeff
Rosewarne as secretary.
MR ROSEWARNE:
Sorry, sir, I was never secretary of the
department.
MR HILL:
Just concentrate.
I know it has been a long day for
you, Mr Rosewarne.
MR ROSEWARNE:
I will say it again, sir, I was never secretary
of the department.
MR HILL:
10
MR O’BRYAN:
11
that.
I was acting secretary.
Just – just a moment.
Just wait.
Just – Mr Rosewarne, we understand
We fully understand that.
12
MR ROSEWARNE:
13
MR O’BRYAN:
Sorry, that’s - - Do you accept that – and it’s not your document,
14
I understand that too.
15
the document he’s referring to you as secretary, rightly
16
or wrongly?
17
MR ROSEWARNE:
18
MR O’BRYAN:
19
MR ROSEWARNE:
20
MR HILL:
Yes.
But as best one can understand
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Thank you, sir.
That’s the questions we have
21
at this time for Mr Rosewarne.
22
be discharged from – in terms of his summons as he will
23
be required later.
24
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
We would ask that he not
Well, Ms Spicer, we have got to that stage,
25
are you happy with the suggestion I made yesterday that
26
you – if you have any questions that you defer them now?
27
Or would you prefer to put them now?
28
29
30
MS SPICER:
I have had a brief discussion with my friend
regarding that issue.
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
301
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MS SPICER:
And given that we understand that Mr Rosewarne
2
will be required to re-attend on another occasion, we
3
would be content to reserve our questions until that next
4
occasion.
5
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
And any comments you might want to make or
6
statement and that kind of thing.
We can defer all that.
7
It’s never set in concrete that someone is coming back.
8
Witnesses are normally deferred to see what other
9
evidence is given.
So down the track if it were the case
10
that Mr Rosewarne wasn’t otherwise required back, whether
11
it be because counsel assisting wanted to ask more
12
questions, or someone had successfully applied to cross-
13
examine your client, then there could be – you could be
14
liaised with, and if you do want to ask questions he can
15
come back for that purpose.
16
17
MS SPICER:
I can indicate that there are a number of issues -
- -
18
MR O’BRYAN:
19
MS SPICER:
Certainly.
Okay.
- - - that he will be seeking to clarify, but
20
we’re more than happy to defer that with you .....
21
appropriate time.
22
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
Yes.
Okay.
It will be deferred.
So
23
whether or not he is required by others for other
24
purposes he can come back at a convenient time and you
25
can ask your questions if at that stage you still want to
26
do that.
27
MS SPICER:
28
MR O’BRYAN:
29
MS SPICER:
30
MR O’BRYAN:
Thank you, sir.
Is that satisfactory to you?
That’s quite satisfactory.
All right.
Right, thank you.
302
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Well, then, Mr
J. ROSEWARNE
1
Rosewarne, your examination may need to be continued at a
2
later date, and is therefore adjourned to a date and time
3
to be fixed.
4
confidentiality notice to the extent that one might
5
affect you.
6
confidential and not subject to that, and you may be
7
recalled at any time during the course of this
8
investigation to give further evidence on oath.
9
be advised in writing if that is to occur, and of the
You remain bound by the summons and
But of course what you said in public is not
You will
10
date and time.
11
you are no longer required, but that will obviously all
12
be done through your solicitor.
13
MR ROSEWARNE:
14
MR O’BRYAN:
15
You will also be advised in writing when
I understand.
And appropriate arrangements made.
excused for now.
16
MR ROSEWARNE:
17
MR O’BRYAN:
18
MR HILL:
So you’re
Thank you.
Thank you.
You can leave the witness box.
Mr Hill - - -
Could I, just before Mr Rosewarne goes, your Honour,
19
do what I neglected to do and that is to tender the last
20
series of documents which are pages 823 to 829, and then
21
832 to 834.
22
MR O’BRYAN:
23
MR HILL:
24
MR O’BRYAN:
25
MR HILL:
26
MR O’BRYAN:
27
832 to 834.
And 841.
All as the one bundle?
Yes, including 841, all as the one bundle.
Right.
And 841.
All right.
28
THE WITNESS WITHDREW
29
MR O’BRYAN:
30
Well, they will all be exhibit 21.
Thank you.
[4.03 pm]
Well, then I will adjourn until tomorrow morning
for the next witness.
Thank you very much.
303
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE
1
MATTER ADJOURNED at 4.04 pm UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 29 APRIL 2015
304
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J. ROSEWARNE