Minutes of the Main TALC Meeting
Irish Taxation Institute, South Block, Longboat Quay, Grand Canal Harbour,
Dublin 2
26 September 2006 at 2.30 p.m.
Attendance:
Irish Taxation Institute
Ken McMoreland, Chairman
David Fennell
Andrew Gallagher
Mark Redmond (for part)
Revenue
Liam Irwin
Gerry Harrahill
Eamonn O’Dea
Denis Graham
Mary Hughes
Gerry Cunningham
Declan Rigney (for part)
CCABI
Marie Barr
Brian Keegan
Liam Lynch
Brian Purcell
The Law Society
Pat Bradley
Secretary: Mary-Margaret McCullagh
Apologies:
Caroline Devlin
Norman Gillanders
New Members
Discussion:
Before the agreement of the minutes, the Chairman asked for new
members to be introduced. Gerry Cunningham is taking the place of
Mick Gladney for Revenue, going forward and Mary Hughes
replaced Norman Gillanders for this meeting. Liam Lynch joins the
CCABI reps and Andrew Gallagher joins the ITI reps on this
occasion following the departure of Adrian Sherlock.
The Chairman acknowledged the contribution of Mick Gladney to the
Main TALC committee over the years and wished him luck in his
new position. Revenue representatives also acknowledged his
contribution and said they would pass on the good wishes to him.
The contribution of Adrian Sherlock was also acknowledged and the
meeting wished him luck in his new position.
Agenda Item 1:
Discussion:
Action Point:
Agenda Item 2:
Discussion:
Agree minutes of 27 June Meeting
Without further changes, the minutes of the 27 June meeting were
agreed as final.

Secretary to circulate the final minutes.
Matters arising
1) Amended versions of previous Main TALC minutes had been
circulated as agreed.
2) The TALC Capital Taxes Committee has re-convened and the
first meeting has taken place. The Chair of the committee was
not available to give an update, but will do so at the next
meeting.
3) The RCT article in TaxBriefing and the clarification on PAYE
in E-brief have both been done. Practitioners complimented
Revenue on the supplement in Tax Briefing in relation to the
Construction Industry Project but commented that aspects of
the Tax Briefing article were not clear enough. The new
provisions concerning the power of an Inspector to assess C2
applications on the basis of likely future compliance need
further clarification. Practitioners gave the example of C2’s
taking up to four weeks to issue after being approved and
another week to receive the relevant payments card.
Practitioners also pointed out that for any withholding tax
system, there is a considerable onus on Revenue to support its
operation by the private sector. Revenue agreed to revert
back on the issue and asked that any further examples of this
would be forwarded to Gerry Cunningham.
4) Correspondence re the Finance Act 2006 PAYE
considerations had been forwarded to Revenue.
5) An update on Taxpayer service proposals is on the agenda for
later in the meeting.
6) The Indirect Taxes Sub-committee work plan has been
received.
7) Revenue reported that they are working with LCD on the
redefinition of existing fields and what information is suitable
in relation to the accounts menus. They committed to
reverting to Main TALC before the Christmas meeting.
Practitioners brought up the issue of the removal of the €20
million cap and asked if Revenue had given any consideration
to making it optional for the first year of operation to allow
for whatever issues may arise. Practitioners pointed out that
the current menu structures were devised with sole traders in
mind, and that any proposed new menu needed to be designed
from the top down. Revenue said that transitional provisions
would be looked at.
8) All available sub-committee minutes and work plans have
been circulated.
9) Points from the sub-committee minutes for publication in the
Main TALC minutes will be discussed later in the meeting.
Action Points:



Agenda Item 4:
Discussion:
Chair of the Capital Taxes sub-committee to give an update at
the next meeting.
Practitioners to send examples of the delays in the issue of
C2’s to Gerry Cunningham in Revenue. Revenue to revert on
these issues.
Revenue to revert on the on-going work on Accounts Menus
and also on whether transitional provisions will be looked at.
Property Incentives and Form 11 2004 & 2005 (item 3 postponed
for later in the meeting)
The Chairman suggested to Revenue that they might consider doing
an explanatory note in plain English for the Form 11, given their
dissatisfaction with the details on forms submitted to date.
Revenue responded that the 2005 Forms have been issued and in
some cases have already been filed, but they will look into it for the
new forms when they issue. They expressed disappointment at the
poor standard of completion of this section of the Forms filed. Some
filers chose largely to ignore the details requested. It appeared that the
requirement was not perceived as essential.
Practitioners responded that they have no issue with the completion
of this section of the form, as it is a statistical requirement, but they
did have difficulty with the manner it was introduced. An article in
Tax Briefing Issue 64 deals with all returns. However it
discriminated between returns filed prior to August 2006. Further, no
mention was made of the position for taxpayers filing through ROS.
It also appeared to run counter to the Oireachtas intention for the
specialized surcharge on failure to complete correct returns.
Revenue confirmed that there was no intention to discriminate
between different classes of filers. Where returns had been filed and
this section of the form had not been completed, the forms would be
returned for completion but would be logged in as having been
received on time.
Action Points:
Practitioners asked for further clarification on the article. Revenue
committed to clarifying the position through E-Brief .

Revenue to clarify the position re the completion of the
property incentives section of Form 11 issues through E-Brief.
Agenda Item 5:
Discussion:
Review of sub-committee work plans and minutes
- The TALC Collection Sub-Committee work plan was reviewed and
it was agreed that the Review of “Inhibitors” to ROS and the
Review of Revenue’s policy relating to processing Form 11s were
appropriate projects for this committee, in conjunction with any
queries that arise.
Practitioners asked where ROS issues should be directed. It was
agreed that queries that needed an answer “today” should be
directed to the ROS Manager and anything else could be submitted
to the TALC Collection Sub-Committee.
- The TALC Indirect Taxes Sub-Committee work plan was reviewed
and agreed.
- The TALC Simplification Sub-Committee work plan was reviewed
and agreed.
- The TALC Audit Sub-Committee work plan was reviewed. It was
felt that it needed to be updated to show the progress that has been
made.
- Discussion took place again on the Technical Sub-Committee’s
remit, in relation to interpretation of legislation or technical
clarification. It was decided not to be too strict on where issues
should be directed and to monitor if issues needed to be redirected
from the Technical Committee to a more suitable forum.
All Sub-Committee chairs are to update the Secretary with the
progress of the committees in relation to their work plans, which the
Secretary will then circulate. Each body is also to review the subcommittee minutes provided and decide on points to be published.
Action Point:
Agenda Item 3:
Discussion:
It was also suggested that perhaps the subcommittees could highlight
matters for possible publication in Main TALC minutes.

All Sub-committee chairs to update Secretary with their work
plan progress and Secretary to in turn circulate to committee.

Each body to review the sub-committee minutes and decide
on points to be published

Chairs of subcommittees to highlight possible matters for
publication
Taxpayer Service Initiatives
At the outset of this discussion, Revenue stated that it wished to
express some concern about comments made in the media by some of
the practitioner bodies represented on TALC concerning Revenue
service to taxpayers and practitioners. These media comments had
arisen in relation to the conduct of a survey among practitioners, and
also on the occasion of the launch of a Revenue campaign to
highlight the uptake of tax reliefs. Revenue regarded these
developments as unhelpful, especially when the issues are the subject
of constructive discussion at TALC. They also expressed concern
about the impact of such statements on staff who are working hard to
provide a good level of service to taxpayers and practitioners.
Practitioners responded that they are not in the business of conducting
media campaigns but they have an obligation to reflect the views of
their members. Revenue's concerns were noted.
Revenue have reviewed all of the papers submitted in relation to
taxpayer service initiatives and gave the following update on the
ideas they are currently working on:
- Instructions for staff on telephone handling and voicemail
responsibility.
- Email contact is being actively examined, but more order is
needed on it. Revenue’s experience is that incoming emails
can be unstructured and very broad in the topics they are
querying.
- The range of filers for ROS is being extended and Revenue
hope to have good news in terms of non-residents but the
issue of death cases still needs further exploration and they
don’t expect to have an early resolution on that.
- Revenue are actively looking into the technical queries issue
as there is a definite escalation and they are looking into the
possibility of dedicated areas within the organization to deal
with them. They will streamline their ideas on it and revert to
TALC. They have requested that Practitioners might assist
with this by highlighting to members what information is
available in the public domain. An example was given of
Revenue being the first port of call when clients are looking
for 2005 Pay & File details for spouses to fill in their Form
11.
- Clear guidance will be given on Rules of Engagement and
who to contact in Revenue for what issues.
- There will be a dedicated 1890 number for Employer
Contacts.
In summing up Revenue said that they have undertaken a detailed
analysis of all the proposals submitted and have found some good
ideas to which they will definitely give due thought. They committed
to reverting at the December meeting with their proposals.
The Chairman thanked Revenue for the presentation, welcomed the
more concrete proposals due in December and invited comments.
Practitioners asked if there were any other examples of queries that
Revenue receive, which should be directed elsewhere. Revenue said
that employers ring for tax credit details for employees in preparation
for P35s – which they should already have. They added that removing
this type of queries would definitely ease the pressure at certain times
of the year. Practitioners agreed and said that they would have no
difficulty highlighting to their members, where to find this
information.
Action Point:



Agenda Item 6:
Discussion:
Revenue to revert with updates and proposals at the December
Main TALC meeting.
Revenue to provide examples of inappropriate queries
received.
Practitioners to advise members with regard to not contacting
Revenue with routine queries.
Issues raised by practitioners
(1) CAT – Corrective Affidavits
Discussion took place on the issue of Dublin CAT office no longer
accepting corrective affidavits unless something has been omitted or
is incorrect on the face of the original affidavit. Practitioners went
into detail in explaining the downfalls of this e.g., it is likely to result
in CA24’s not being lodged until property is sold and value realized
and how it puts executors in a better position than administrators
because they will not be able to sell until grants issue. Guidance was
sought on the issue.
Revenue have asked for further details of the specific cases from
practitioners and it was decided that the issue should be referred to
the Capital Taxes sub-branch for further discussion
(2) CAT – Difficulties with service levels
Practitioners had submitted a case study as an example of significant
difficulties in relation to service levels for CAT. They noted that the
case study wasn’t something that happens generally but is indicative
of the type of issue that could arise nationwide. There were also
reports of serious delays in the Limerick Region where Inland
Revenue Affidavits are taking a number of months to process.
Revenue responded that the first issue was due to a difficulty in
stamping expertise and that it is now resolved. The second issue
Arose in the first half of 2006 because of particular problems in the
Limerick Area. These have been addressed and currently all
submissions are dealt with well within the period set down in
Revenue’s Customer Service standards. The problem in relation to
affidavits being returned with a query on the PPS number appears to
relate to a situation where there is a time delay between the date when
a PPS number is issued by the Department of Social and Family
Affairs and the date on which the number is updated to the computer
system.
(3) CAT – Issue of notices under S.45(5) to Solicitors
Practitioners explained that issuing notices under S.45(5) to solicitors
has the effect of making the agent or any person responsible for
administrating the estate, personally liable to the tax. This is
something they would view with great alarm; it is not good for tax
administration because solicitors will not want to take the risk,
especially as they have to rely on beneficiaries to notify them.
Practitioners said that they don’t object to serving notices in isolated
cases where particular things have been identified but issuing them as
routine practice was a problem.
Revenue responded that this issue should be looked at in the same
way as Corrective Affidavits in that a correct procedure should be put
in place. It is not the intention of Revenue to hold the agent
responsible where they acted in good faith. It was decided that the
issue should be referred to the Capital Taxes sub-branch for further
discussion.
(4) CGT – Discharge of Solicitors Undertakings given in relation to
the payment of tax.
Practitioners reported that difficulties have arisen in cases where
undertakings have been given and CGT paid by solicitors. Revenue
have acknowledged receipt of the tax but are refusing to discharge the
undertaking of the solicitor. Practitioners asked that Revenue take on
board that solicitors cannot be expected to give undertakings in
respect of tax unless they are satisfied that on the payment of the tax
their undertaking will be discharged. It was decided that the issue
should be referred to the Capital Taxes sub-branch for further
discussion.
(5) Section 50 – Land and conveyancing law reform bill.
Practitioners stated that the new section has an opt-out clause and that
they need to be sure what the tax treatment is, in particular for VAT.
They suggested that the tax treatment should continue as before notwith-standing whether somebody opted out or not. They asked that
Revenue consider it and if it is likely to change that people will be
informed.
Revenue agreed to consider it further.
(6) VAT 4A
Practitioners brought forward the example of where a landlord
provides a lease to a tenant and a 4A form is filled out and VAT 4B
issues. In such circumstances the VAT does not need to be accounted
for by the landlord as it is payable by the tenant. In the particular
circumstances the tenant did not do as he intended with the property,
and the inspector has indicated that he proposes to revoke the VAT
4B and hold the landlord accountable for VAT.
Revenue asked that the details be sent to them and that they would
revert.
Action Point:
Agenda Item 7:
Action Point:
Agenda Item 8:

Corrective Affidavit – issue referred to Capital Taxes subGroup for further discussion.

Notices under S.45(5) – issue referred to Capital Taxes subGroup for further discussion.

Details on the VAT 4A issue to be sent to Revenue and they
will revert.
Budget 2007
The date of the next budget is Wednesday, 6 December. It was
proposed at the meeting that the Main TALC Meeting and Christmas
Dinner scheduled for Friday, 1 December be postponed to Friday 8
December. It was agreed and the Chairman asked that each body send
their proposed attendees to the Secretary as soon as possible.

A representative from each body to forward their proposed
attendees to the Secretary, for the Main TALC meeting and
dinner on Friday 8 December.
AOB
Practitioners brought forward the issue of subsistence payments
especially in relation to “country money”. An example was given of
two people working side-by-side on a building site in Dublin, where
the one from Dublin would be entitled to country money because of
the distance from the GPO, where as the other, from outside the
capital would not be entitled to it because they are employed and
actually working on the site.
Revenue said that they believe this issue is at an advanced stage of
agreement and promised to revert at the next meeting.
Action Point:

Revenue to update on the issue at the next meeting.
The Chairman thanked each of the participating bodies and their representatives for
attending the meeting.
Meeting ends at 4 p.m.
The next meeting will take place in the Marriot Johnstown House Enfield on 8 December
2006, at 2.30 p.m. followed by dinner at 8 p.m.
Action
Responsibility
1. Secretary to circulate final minutes of 27 June 2006.
ITI
2. Chair of the Capital Taxes sub-committee to give an
update at the next meeting
SPECIFIC CHAIR
3. Practitioners to send examples of the delays in issue of
ALL
C2s to Gerry Cunningham in Revenue. Revenue to
revert on these issues.
4. Revenue to revert on on-going work in accounts menus
and also on whether transitional provisions will be
considered.
REVENUE
5. Revenue to clarify the position re the completion of the
property incentives section of Form 11 issues through EBrief.
REVENUE
6. All sub-committee chairs to update Secretary with the
work plan progress and Secretary to in turn circulate to
Main TALC.
ALL
7. Each body to review the sub-committee minutes and
decide on points to be published.
ALL
8. Chairs of subcommittees to highlight possible matters
for publication.
ALL
9. Revenue to revert with updates and concrete proposal
for Taxpayer Service Initiatives at the next meeting.
REVENUE
10. Revenue to provide examples of inappropriate queries
received.
REVENUE
11. Practitioners to advise members about not contacting
Revenue with routine queries.
PRACTITIONERS
12. Corrective Affidavit – issue referred to Capital Taxes
sub-committee for further discussion.
SPECIFIC CHAIR
13. Notices under S.45(5) – issue referred to Capital Taxes
sub-committee for further discussion.
SPECIFIC CHAIR
14. Details on the VAT 4A issue to be sent to Revenue and
they will revert.
ALL
15. Each body to forward their proposed attendees to the
Secretary for the Main TALC meeting and dinner.
ALL
16. Revenue to provide an update on the subsistence
payments and country money issue at the next meeting.
REVENUE