Survivability issues TGC Extreme Operation conditions Gas Gas Gain Voltage Safety margin at working conditions Comments MDT Comments RPC Comments MMGAS Comments Total 14 KHz, 10 years, 107 sec each year, Charged particles 300 Hz cm^2 (from CSC measurement 10Hz/cm^2 at 3*10^33 Photons Neurons -3.105 cm2/s ? Temperature variation inside the cavern ~3o (equivalent to 1% of voltage variation) nAr/CO2 C2H2F4/IsoControl is Ar/CO2 C5H12/CO2 93/7 C4H10/SF6 critical but 93/7 45/55 94.7/5/0.3 OK for some H2O present required. system of the concentration s. 6 4 10 OK 2*10 8 pC/mip 3 pC/photon Can be factor 5*103-2*104 Saturation ???? ~2 pC MIP of 3 less. 1 pc/MIP Op. voltage OK Op. voltage: Op. voltage: Op. voltage: 2900V 2730 V 6000V 520V. Margin: Margin: Margin: >1000V Margin: >600 V? + 60 V ~40 V Final? Working point not chosen yet Spark rate changes by factor of 20 in the gas gain range Max 1.4 C/cm2 (expect.) collected charge at max gain Test carried Up to 10 out C/cm2 Expected spark rate 0 (if everything is normal) Neutron response Sensitivity 1*10-3 Charge: ~50 pC (30 times more than MIP)? Small volumes. Gas exchange rate critical 3.6 C/cm 14*103*30*1012*10*107 = 4.5 C/cm2 Test is going on0.025C/cm/d Up to 1.3 C/cm now Tested up to 0.3 C/cm More tests required particularly with new material 0 (if everything is OK) Spark/Self limited streamer with charge factor 7-8 higher than nominal signal Streamer probability ~1% for +1000 V to nominal Sensitivity 10-3 Charge factor 7-8 higher than nominal signal Total charge <25% of that from photons More Sensitivity information? ~ 5 * 10-4 Charge: ~ 10 * MIP No problem But cross talk in ~ 0.25 C/cm2 X-ray Tested up to ~0.36 C/cm2. Test in reactor with 1.2 x 10^14 n/cm2 (20 years sLHC) ~<1Hz/cm2 Sensitivity ~5*10-4 Spark probability 10-8 per neutron for GG 104 Some other chambers operated up to 2 C/cm2 Accumulated charge per cm2 might be more than from normal avalanche What? Tested seems OK Photon response Main concern Probability ~ 10-2 ? Charge ~5 pC 1. Main ageing tests done for small chambers. 2. Conditions of the ageing test can be critical 3. Stagnation of the gas or small volume exchange rate in some parts of the chamber can lead to damage 4. Irradiation products accumulated in the chambers can be a real problem. Large scale long term tests are critical for the chamber design. present electronic in 8 channels Probability: ~ 8 * 10-3 Charge: ~ 2 * MIP 1. Control of the production process and validation of the production batches 2. Gas system must be validated and new coming parts have to be validated before installation. Both issues are well recognized and understood. Extensive experience from MDT chamber construction. Probability: ~ 10-2 Charge: 1.5 MIP ~ 2 * MIP Ageing tests done for doses almost 10 times less than expected: Major problems: 1. General behavior of the resistive coating (both after normal operation and after a total number of streamers with significant safety margin)? Resistivity evolution? 2. Full scale prototype tests at different operation conditions. 3. If rate*charge is significantly larger than for the LHC chambers dedicated studies for Fluorine radical (HF) effects must be done 4. Noise increase due to ?? 1. If gas gain not chosen one shell carry out the tests at maximum expected one. 2. Although ageing is not expected still the tests should be carried out with a large chamber size. Any gas stagnations effects? 3. The main concern is a behavior of the resistive coating. 4. An exact deposition process and material composition have to be finalized and The test with total number of accumulated sparks with significant safety high rate (old chamber 1 kHz/cm2)? 5. Flow rate VS particle rate -> stability is sensitive to this 6. Surface defects & small gap in mass production? 7. Gas flow uniformity & small gap. margin has be done with large scale prototype. 5. Some constrains on the temperature gradients over the chambers 6. Production of large chambers and industrialization For all technologies irradiation test facility for large scale detectors with rate up to 30-40 KHz/cm2 is urgently required.