TRANSCRIPT
FAMILY AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE
Inquiry into social inclusion and Victorians with a disability
Melbourne — 17 March 2014
Members
Mr D. O’Brien
Ms D. Ryall
Mrs A. Coote
Ms B. Halfpenny
Mr J. Madden
Chair: Ms D. Ryall
Deputy Chair: Ms B. Halfpenny
Staff
Executive Officer: Dr J. Bush
Research Officer: Ms V. Finn
Administrative Officer: Ms N. Tyler
Witnesses
Ms C. Hargreaves, manager, social policy, and
Ms J. Black, policy adviser, Municipal Association of Victoria.
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The DEPUTY CHAIR — You are probably familiar with the formal bit.
Ms HARGREAVES — We are, but you have got to say it anyway.
The DEPUTY CHAIR — Yes. As outlined in the guide provided to you by the secretariat, all evidence of
the hearing is taken by the committee under the provisions of the Parliamentary Committees Act 2003 and other
legislation and attracts parliamentary privilege. Anything said outside of these hearings does not attract
parliamentary privilege. We are also recording proceedings, and you will get a copy of the transcript. Sorry we
are running a little bit behind schedule. The idea was that there would be a presentation for about 15 minutes
followed by questions. We have been asking others whether, if we have further questions, we can provide them
in writing, if that is okay with you.
Ms HARGREAVES — Sure. I am Clare Hargreaves, manager of social policy at the Municipal Association
of Victoria, which, as you know, is the legislative peak body for local government. Jan Black is our policy
adviser. One of the many things she covers is this area, so I might just start off and then hand over to Jan, if that
is okay.
We are very pleased to be here today in terms of this being a topic of great interest and importance to local
government. I suppose I would just start by saying that prior to the changes in the state legislation in the last
decade, councils were very much onto the broader issues of access and inclusion for people with disabilities,
probably from around the 1992 federal legislation. There was guidance prepared with our national body, the
Australian Local Government Association, during that time. In fact I think the human rights commission people
attested that Victorian councils were amongst the first to have plans in this area. We have had something to
build on, which has been really good over the last decade, working closely with the state and having that active
support in terms of working in partnership with some resourcing to the MAV to help councils work in this area.
We will talk further about the community building program, particularly in the metro and rural access program,
and indicate just how important that has been. We will cover that off as well. I will hand over to Jan to perhaps
give a bit of an overview of some of the aspects of the submission.
Ms BLACK — As we outlined in this submission, MAV had undertaken quite significant work in a
partnership project with the Department of Human Services which helped fund the work which involved an
interview with councils — I think it ended up being about 25 of them — at a senior executive level, looking at
what role councils were playing in terms of access and inclusion for people with disabilities. That report was
very comprehensive, which I have outlined in the submission. I call it the background report, but it was a very
comprehensive report which really was the state of play of local government; it was a snapshot of rural,
metropolitan and regional councils. Because it was interviewing senior executives, CEOs and managers in some
cases, you have got that cross-section of what was actually going on and a whole-of-council approach.
That led to — and staff have handed it out — the strategic framework that you have in front of you. That
document was like a summary of the findings of what was going on in councils and also led councils to some of
the best practice around how to have a whole-of-government approach to creating inclusive communities. That
went out in 2011 to all councils, reflecting back to them the work that the research project had undertaken in
terms of what was going on in some or all of those local governments. From that MAV, with the Office for
Disability, then ran two forums trying to promulgate this further and also pick up a little bit more on what was
going on in councils for councils and back to councils.
Two forums were held, one on employment and one on civic engagement. Both those forums were well
attended and there ended up being about 100 people from 50 councils. The proceedings of those forums were
then written up and also set out again for councils to be able to use those proceedings to find their place,
whether or not they were at the beginning of employment, right through to those councils like Latrobe council,
which has quite a sophisticated employment and retention policy framework.
Within that piece of work, those couple of forums and the preceding framework, MAV supports a network
called the Victorian Local Government Disability Planners Network. It is mostly people who are employed in
the RuralAccess or MetroAccess programs, and they come together every six weeks or so to try to have an
email distribution list and share information. The other thing I have handed out today — you would have
perhaps seen it on Saturday; it was in the employment section of the Age — is about a MetroAccess officer at
one of the councils, Maroondah council, and his work in pushing and advocating in every possible forum, both
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in terms of his own council and within the sector generally as well as to government and to anybody around that
whole idea of accessibility for people in terms of toileting and accessing public spaces.
I have tried to give you a brief overview of what was in the submission and what work MAV has undertaken
over time with the sector. Maybe if I just quickly go through some of the key findings of that background
report, one of which was that all councils have a disability plan. Some were up to their fourth or so plan this
time around.
One of the issues that was identified was that they were maybe up to their fourth plan and that there perhaps was
not a way of tracking what was in their first plan and what achievements had actually been made. Part of that
will be solved, I think, by the 2012 amendments to the act, which require reporting on disability action plans in
annual reports. That will be a chance for councils to more accurately reflect and capture what their
achievements are from their disability action plans.
The DEPUTY CHAIR — On that idea, has there been an individual council that has tried to measure or
assess whether its plans have actually led to further social inclusion of residents?
Ms BLACK — I think it has been a bit more about reporting on the types of activity, rather than on
outcomes, which was such a long-term outcome. Of the plans that I have included in the annual report part, the
only one I included here was Dandenong’s. You will see there it is more about reporting against the actions
rather than outcomes.
The DEPUTY CHAIR — I guess one of the things that we have heard during hearings is this whole issue
about actions. Is that really what social inclusion is? A number of people say, ‘Oh, saying you went somewhere
or someone visited you does not actually mean that there has been social inclusion’. Have you got an overall
definition of what you are saying social inclusion is? Because, again, we know that it means different things to
different people. Have you looked at developing that?
Ms HARGREAVES — I know exactly what you are saying about the whole range of informal interactions
in the community, all the way through to the more formal. I think councils would have no trouble at all in
reporting on much greater, increased activity and involvement of people in this area, and involvement in
decision making in local groups and involvement in employment and so on.
The DEPUTY CHAIR — Involvement in employment within council or without?
Ms HARGREAVES — Yes, and potentially more broadly. You are probably aware that one of the
difficulties local government has is having the resources to stop and track and evaluate. That is probably a rare
opportunity.
The DEPUTY CHAIR — I am not having a go at you, because I know that Justin Madden, who has had to
leave, raised an issue previously where there has been quite a bit of money put into public transport, making it
more accessible for those with a disability, but in actual fact ABS figures show that there has been no change in
the access to public transport.
Ms HARGREAVES — I might just comment at this stage that one of the things that we think councils, with
you, can really be helpful in is just that leadership of attitudinal change broadly in the community. You have
heard us talk similarly in this area around preventing violence against women. While it seems a bit amorphous,
local government could be out there on the front foot saying, ‘We are going to do this differently in our
customer service centres, in our libraries, in our employment, in our advertisements and in all activities’,
particularly across the range of disabilities, which I think is a huge challenge. It is one thing being wheelchair
accessible, but also taking on the deaf access and autism that we have just heard about and all the other potential
things. We find as local government takes that on, often because people see councils as sometimes fairly
conservative, they see that this is a new way of doing things. Governments have the great reach, as you know, to
generate that sort of attitudinal change in the community, by leading by example, I suppose.
The DEPUTY CHAIR — What about in terms of the private sector, whether it is employment or new
estates and things like that, and through the planning process? Is there work being done there?
Ms HARGREAVES — You might want to talk about access being good business as well.
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Ms BLACK — One of the things that Whittlesea council has managed to achieve, once again by the
resource of having community-building MetroAccess staff as well as their own disability planning staff is that
they have developed guidelines for new estates. In terms of that type of accessibility, if that is what you are
talking about — —
Mrs COOTE — Footpaths?
The DEPUTY CHAIR — There are not many in Whittlesea.
Mrs COOTE — I know.
Ms BLACK — It has been adopted by the Growth Areas Authority, which is fantastic work, to actually have
developed those guidelines, worked through the council, worked through all the different departments, and then
have those guidelines be part of what you offer to a developer and say, ‘This is what the standard is that you are
required to achieve’.
Ms HARGREAVES — Similarly, I was going to say, in the economic development and tourism area, all
that work on good access being good business is being pushed out through the councils in their interactions with
their tourism operators and their bed and breakfasts and all of those sorts of issues. That is where the
cross-functional nature of local government being able to work a lot with the private sector as well, as you were
saying, is really important in that leadership role.
Mrs COOTE — I know that when we were developing the state disability plan you played an integral part,
and local government was integral to the development of that plan. We had a whole day on the planning process
where we looked at community disability action plans — and some councils were very good at the disability
action plans and others were not so good — and how they were going to interact with the state disability plan. I
want to put on the record here what an integral part you played in the development of that. I know that you are
looking at disability action plans in the broader section; I think Jan just outlined that as well. Could you give us
some examples, or you could take it on notice and give it to us later, of some of the councils that are doing this
very well in both ways — in employment and opportunities for people to work in the councils as well as out
there in the community? For example, some of them are doing playgrounds for children with disability; others
are including things like the Madcap Cafe. How do you do that with planning, how do you enable some of those
more innovative disability groups to have access to main shopping centre strips et cetera? Could you give us
some tangible examples of those types of things that we could use in our report? I think it would be really
helpful to see what some of the councils are doing, because some of them are doing some great stuff.
Ms HARGREAVES — Yes, that is right.
Ms BLACK — I think that is right. It would probably be good to take that on notice to get back to you,
because there is such a range of work going on across Victoria and, as you say, if you would like to use them as
examples — —
Mrs COOTE — Yes, I think that would be extremely handy, because, as I said, some of them are doing
some terrific stuff, both with the employment options within the councils themselves and also with planning and
encouragement in a more widespread way.
Ms HARGREAVES — That is great. They are often things that, as you know, then we can build on. If you
get a group of councils doing it, you can tip a few more into doing the same thing.
Mrs COOTE — Yes, absolutely. That would be terrific.
Ms BLACK — Yes, indeed. You are aware of course that councils like Maribyrnong, which has an
all-abilities playground, Darebin again, which has Bundoora Park, a whole — —
Mrs COOTE — Boroondara?
Mr O’BRIEN — I opened one at Cato Park in Stawell — one of the swings there.
Ms BLACK — We can certainly do that.
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Mrs COOTE — And, as I say, it is also things like enabling social enterprises to have the planning permits
for people to get easily into shopping malls and centres et cetera from a planning perspective, from local
council, because I think that is another area of encouragement.
Ms BLACK — That is right. I am pretty sure that it is still the case — it certainly was three years ago —
that Darebin council’s whole recycling depot was managed by a disability organisation that employed, I think,
quite a number of people. I cannot remember exactly, so I had better not say a number, because it might not be
right, but it was in the tens of people, who sorted goods and then sold them from a shop.
Mrs COOTE — And Glen Eira has GESAC, for example, which has a whole disability sector for their total
involvement in their sports centre, and they are teaching other staff how to integrate people with a disability, so
it is amazing. That is being done through the Glen Eira council. That would be really helpful.
Mr O’BRIEN — I would like you to elaborate a bit more on your RuralAccess program — you have talked
about MetroAccess — you have got it on pages 6 and 7 of your submission and it leads to some really detailed
and important issues that you have mentioned that we have touched on with other witnesses in relation to the
tensions of compliance with the disability legislation, particular for heritage buildings and council buildings.
There is an issue of dignified access, and whether that is reconcilable, in a small heritage council, with the cost
of that. These are all matters that were thrashed out at a federal and state COAG-type level with the building
industry in the formulation of the code.
I see you say there that councils have got challenges in meeting the requirements of the code. There were
well-documented challenges in the Whelan report and other matters that I know MAV and many others are well
aware of for councils generally in rural areas meeting any of their obligations. Could you elaborate on some of
those issues as to what they are and where you think we have got to take them?
Ms HARGREAVES — Just at the broad level we have had councils in Victoria doing access audits for a
long period of time, as you probably know, and I think it is a matter of coming to some sort of
intergovernmental agreement with the state and commonwealth and the community about priorities. Clearly the
cost of making every building accessible — not just in the Ballarats and Bendigos but in the smaller councils
surrounding them, with the sorts of buildings they have — it seems to me you have got to involve the
community and people with disabilities from various walks of life in what are the priorities for them, and then
work on a prioritised program. It really is unrealistic to say that every heritage building is going to be able to
make the adjustments required, or it is going to take so long that it is not going to be in the lifetime of the people
who need assistance. Somehow the prioritisation in the community has to occur as sort of a joint effort about
what is most important to people and, as you say, being done in a respectful way that is going to be dignified for
them. I do not know if you have got any points on that, Jan.
Ms BLACK — Yes. Many of the 26 RuralAccess workers share two or three councils, so one worker is in
two or three councils. Their impact is limited to that level of resource that is provided. But it cannot be
underestimated how important that program is in helping local government keep a focus. One of the things that
came up in the forum that we held on civic engagement was that we had a councillor who had been struck down
by debilitating disease which meant that they really did need to have significant adjustment throughout the
whole proceedings of council, really; not just about the physical accessibility, but the whole way meetings and
even voting was held, because he was actually paralysed. He was not able to put his hand up at a vote.
Mrs COOTE — But his wife — —
Ms BLACK — Yes.
Mrs COOTE — Yes, she is great.
Mr O’BRIEN — That is a good example. If I can return to what I am still thinking of with your submission,
which is that the area I represent has significant bluestone buildings, often with narrow doorways and steps.
Parliament is an example of that. They also have a tension in keeping any access to local government in many
of these smaller towns, or former shires. I will not labour the point, but I know with particular bluestone
buildings in former shires there have been attempts to reuse them. Sometimes they have got disability access
around the back, which is a form of access but sometimes regarded as undignified. It has been provided in some
places, and I know in other places it is not there at all. The corollary is that other councils, say, the Surf Coast
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shire, has built a brand new building. That is in a sense a much wealthier ratepayer base, a growing municipality
with an ability to call on funds et cetera. Is there anything in the NDIS and the government’s plans in relation to
the disability plan for how we can prioritise and work through these issues in a way that meets the needs of the
disability sector and social inclusion?
Ms BLACK — I think that is what has to happen within disability access plans — that prioritisation.
Certainly councils that I have worked for used to have a particular fund each year in their budget which allowed
for a steady progression towards prioritisation. You were not just waiting for the time you were next going to do
a total new civic centre, which happens once in a lifetime; you were actually working on particular priorities
that might encourage employment. Once again, an example was where an old depot had an upstairs area where
the offices were and a downstairs area where the workshops were. Council insisted that there be a lift provided
at that depot, which was not in the public view but was important in terms of whether you were serious about
being able to provide access for people to have employment at that place.
Mr O’BRIEN — Not all the issues lead to the one conclusion and sit with the big civic centre. Even
severely disabled people may wish that council meetings still be held in their local bluestone community hall,
which was the example Mrs Coote raised, and a carer or someone else could attend or communicate with them,
rather than have any government access lost to that smaller town, because it has been centralised in the major
centre in a new, big building, in what they call a Taj Mahal in various places.
Ms BLACK — I think one of the emerging issues, too, is the old issue of ICT communication. That has
been raised at the state council of MAV, asking MAV to take this up as an advocacy issue. This really goes to
the heart of both inclusion in terms of employment, but also an example was given of where a library was
developing its new system. Yes, there were readers for some of the stock that might have been available, but if
the whole system was developed where you were able to have access to the whole system, it would be a
different procurement exercise. You would start with access as your point, rather than retrofitting it afterwards.
If you know about the systems in any organisation, such as payroll systems, they are a software program that
you cannot access unless you have the full capacity to do so.
Mr O’BRIEN — That technology is one of the great opportunities.
Ms BLACK — It is an opportunity, but it is also a barrier — the way it is.
Mr O’BRIEN — Yes, it can be. Can I pursue a related area? The TAFE Learn Local program, which has
been a credit to Minister Hall as one of his legacy projects that he has worked on all his life, tries to provide
greater access into the communities for training. Are there opportunities that we need to explore to coordinate
with that program from the local government point of view? For example, if there is a TAFE with a new
whizzbang or small training centre, or a school that has got a new whizzbang videoconferencing facility — and
yes, it is not the same as having to drive 50 kilometres into the Taj Mahal, or whatever we want to call the
centralised facility, but it may well provide innovative and cost-effective temporary solutions et cetera — is that
the sort of thing that local government needs to work towards?
Ms BLACK — Yes, and one of the things that we did when we had those forums was that we took the
opportunity of using DHS offices in fact, and so we had those forums where people did not have to come into
Melbourne, and that was why we had such good attendance. We had four sites and used videoconferencing to
four sites across the state, and used the fact of technology, too.
Ms HARGREAVES — I think you are absolutely right, and it is something we talk about a lot with the
early childhood people as well. We need to have complementary programs for adults, whether they are families
with intergenerational poverty and people trying to get back into employment or, in this sort of example, I think
we could be using that stronger relationship with the adult learning sector, so that in those programs you do not
just have the child dropped off over here and then the adult not knowing that something is available. We could
make much better use of the facilities, and certainly that sharing of resources in rural Victoria because, as you
know, we cannot afford to be duplicating facilities.
Mr O’BRIEN — And it is socially inclusive. Everyone is there for maybe more than one purpose?
Ms HARGREAVES — Yes, that is right. Councils cannot afford to be building stand-alone facilities either,
but it is getting the departments together and getting that planning at the front end. I think it is a great
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opportunity, particularly linking in programs for younger and older adults with other areas and not seeing them
all in isolation.
Mr O’BRIEN — Just to put all that together, would you be able to think about that in a more cohesive sense
with specific recommendations, perhaps having regard to existing programs and developments like Learn
Local, and maybe specific towns. Obviously I am interested in western Victoria, but we would be interested in a
couple of examples across the state, so that we could think about recommendations that are tailored.
Ms HARGREAVES — Yes, okay.
The DEPUTY CHAIR — I just had a quick question and also I think Andrea has one. In terms of council’s
ability to influence builders and developers about building in ways that are suitable for those with a disability,
what would you like to see the state government doing in terms of assisting with that in terms of regulation or
other things? I know there was talk about universal housing regulations at one stage.
Ms HARGREAVES — Yes, I think there is a whole area there. I think you know that some councils have
tried to lead in this area around universal design in housing and at this stage that is not specifically backed up by
state legislation. That is a real barrier for this being taken forward. There is a group of councils that would be
very happy to talk to you about what they would like to be doing, but of course it has to be supported; otherwise
it just will not run, as you know, with developers in the marketplace.
Mr O’BRIEN — I think with developers you need to talk to the building industry as well.
Ms HARGREAVES — Of course.
Mr O’BRIEN — The commercial ones. It is not necessarily government; it is the building sector.
Ms HARGREAVES — Yes, but it needs to be a three-way discussion, does it not?
The DEPUTY CHAIR — What are the councils that are doing some work? I know when we did the seniors
inquiry there were some — was it out Geelong way or Werribee, I cannot remember now. I suppose we could
look up the old reports.
Ms BLACK — In terms of the universal design?
The DEPUTY CHAIR — Or councils that are interested in looking at new developments and ensuring that
there is proper access for those with a disability.
Ms BLACK — Certainly the newer councils have had the opportunity to work with the full range of
strategic planners and engineering in terms of working with developers from the beginning. But I think what
Clare was saying is that there was a big push — —
Ms HARGREAVES — From Yarra in particular, not that long ago.
The DEPUTY CHAIR — Yarra. That is right. I just was not sure.
Ms HARGREAVES — Yes. I appreciate absolutely what you are saying about unpacking what push and
pull factors are out there. Councils would be very happy to explore that again because, as you know, they have
to deal with all of those sectors in their negotiations.
Mr O’BRIEN — You have to keep pushing.
Ms HARGREAVES — That is right; absolutely.
Mrs COOTE — My final question is really about what role you believe local government plays in
educating the broader community, not the disability sector. I know with social inclusion that having
opportunities to work within local government is one area, but what responsibilities do you think local
governments have in educating the broader community about people with a disability and their social inclusion?
Ms BLACK — I think it really is about leadership. For example, when councils put their resources towards
something quite visible like an all-abilities playground, the whole community can then appreciate, understand
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and have the experience of enjoying that and of participating with others. The fact that they would put
considerable resources towards something like that is a physical marker of the commitment of councils to social
inclusion.
Another example I was going to talk about and one that I thought showed huge leadership was a festival I was
involved with. It came about because the arts people came to the disability advisory committee of the council
and talked about the upcoming festival, which was an annual event. They talked about how to make it fully
accessible. It was a brilliant festival in terms of how people experienced it. There was not just physical
accessibility. People who had disabilities were also employed as marshals. There were water stations. In so
many ways in terms of the performances of people with disabilities, all the performances allowed for a range of
demonstrations of ability and of different types of disability. It was attended by something like 50 000 people.
That is the way councils can both show and help people experience inclusiveness. That is just one example.
Mrs COOTE — That is great. Thank you very much indeed.
Mr O’BRIEN — We had evidence earlier today about a product called Marveloo, which is a product that is
particularly for festivals or other places — —
Ms HARGREAVES — Yes.
Ms BLACK — Portable?
Mr O’BRIEN — Yes, portable access.
Mrs COOTE — Maroondah City Council.
Mr O’BRIEN — Are you aware of that?
Ms HARGREAVES — Yes.
Mrs COOTE — Jack Mulholland — he is the man!
Ms BLACK — Yes, Jack is a MetroAccess officer, so his employment is actually made possible through the
community building program with the Department of Human Services that the state funds. He is passionate
about this. But what Maroondah is doing is brilliant. Other councils have also taken this on, maybe not through
the brand name of Changing Places, but very similar concepts.
Ms HARGREAVES — Yes, I think that is the only feedback that we have had. It is keeping the idea of
what you are trying to achieve, and this is one way of achieving it, but sometimes people can come up with
different portable solutions that might not be branded quite the same. So I suppose we have been encouraging
putting the proposition to people, and this might be one answer, but we will just see what other solutions people
come up with as well. But we are certainly saying that the issue should be addressed.
Mr O’BRIEN — Thank you for that.
The DEPUTY CHAIR — Thanks for coming.
Ms HARGREAVES — Thank you.
Witnesses withdrew.
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