SENATOR KIM CARR
SHADOW MINISTER FOR HIGHER EDUCATION,
RESEARCH, INNOVATION AND INDUSTRY
SENATOR FOR VICTORIA
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
RADIO INTERVIEW
2CC CANBERRA, WITH CHRIS McLENAGHAN
FRIDAY, 26 SEPTEMBER 2014
SUBJECT/S: Abbott Government’s unfair changes to higher education;
submission by University of Canberra Vice-Chancellor; Christopher Pyne’s
Ernie award; AFL Grand Final.
CHRIS McLENAGHAN: There’s been plenty of talk about the education reforms or
some people would say education destruction that’s going on, depending on your
point of view, regarding the education changes being pushed through or attempted
to be pushed through the Parliament by Education Minister Christopher Pyne, and of
course this is resulting in what will be massive increases in the cost of university
degrees, no matter what you’re studying.
Now, the University of Canberra Vice-Chancellor Stephen Parker has sounded a
warning. He’s been a pretty strident critic of these proposals. He’s warning that an
average female undergraduate who wants to be a teacher in Australia could quickly
find herself graduating with debts of $50,000 or more as a result of their studies.
Professor Parker has written a submission to the Senate Standing Committee on
Education and Employment in which he tones down his rhetoric in the interests of
presenting a short and stark warning of the damage these reforms could do to
Australia.
He says, “in this submission, which I deliberately keep short and less colourful, I
seek to emphasise the damage these measures will do to future graduates and
indirectly our society, the unfairness to existing debtors of having the basis of their
repayments changed after graduating, the inequitable nature of the proposals as
between advantaged and disadvantaged people, and the distorting impact that the
reforms will have on some key professions like teaching”. Someone who has got
plenty of skin in this is the Shadow Minister for Higher Education, and he’s from
Victoria, Senator Kim Carr and joins us on the line. Senator Carr, good afternoon.
SHADOW MINISTER FOR HIGHER EDUCATION SENATOR KIM CARR: Good
afternoon, Chris.
McLENAGHAN: Thank you for taking the chance, I know you’ve got a flight to
catch shortly. Looking at these changes, and I was thinking when I was reading
these stories and preparing the program this afternoon, Senator, as someone born
in ’59, left school in ’76 and finished his tertiary education in the mid-1980s, it was
free education for me, I was done pre-HECS. These kids were paying HECS and now
it looks like many of them will be priced out of higher education.
CARR: And that’s my real concern as well. I, like you, enjoyed the benefits of the
reforms under the Whitlam government and as we came to understand the need to
have more money in higher education and the need to broaden out the numbers of
people going to university, the HECS scheme was introduced and that was a
tremendous success. We understood that there had to be a relationship between
people’s private benefit and the public benefit. Now at the moment, that’s about 40
per cent from private, and 60 per cent from public investment. I think, given the
circumstances, that’s about right. When the HECS scheme was actually introduced it
was 20/80 – 20 per cent private, 80 per cent public.
It has shifted; the point being, though, that the government’s proposals to take it to
even higher levels of private contribution will seriously disadvantage people who
come from poorer backgrounds. It will seriously undermine the equity principles of
Australian higher education. And a lot of folks in this country have this belief, and I
think rightly, that if you work hard, you’ve got the brains, you’ve got the
determination, you should be able to get a quality education which opens the door
to so much in life as a whole. I’m really worried that these proposals that the
Government is trying to force upon the Australian Parliament will undermine that
basic principle of a fair go which Australians have come to accept and appreciate,
that distinguishes this country from America and many other places.
McLENAGHAN: Certainly does. Now we’re speaking to Senator Carr, the Shadow
Minister for Higher Education, regarding a submission made by the University ViceChancellor, or Deputy Vice-Chancellor, Professor Stephen Parker from the ANU,
about his concerns of increasing costs being proposed by Education Minister
Christopher Pyne with his education changes. It’s interesting , we talk about the
Whitlam years – Whitlam is often accused of crash through or crash with the Senate,
and with trying to spend too much money too quickly, as indeed was the
government of which you were part for six years.
Yet these changes seem to have been proposed by Christopher Pyne so quickly and
they didn’t seem to be much thought through, and I raise this point with you,
Senator: if you’re going to take away the ability of poorer people and people from
lower income situations to be able to move through tertiary education and miss the
chance for those studies and career opportunities, there did not seem to be much
attempt, for example, to approach the private sector – traditionally business
supporters of the Coalition – with an increased or enhanced number of scholarships,
for example.
CARR: Well, the problem here is that the Government said during the election
campaign there’d be no cuts to education. They also said there’d be no changes in
the fee arrangements. And so what we’ve got is a complete breach of faith with the
Australian people. Now the Vice-Chancellor of the University of Canberra is making
the point here is that these are things that should be done through proper
discussion and debate, and when Dawkins introduced many of the changes that led
to the HECS scheme being introduced, there was a green paper, there was a white
paper, there was lengthy consultation, it was then put to the Parliament. It wasn’t
like this government has done – by breaching election promises, dropping it as a
Budget announcement and then saying, well, you’ve got to take it or leave it.
Now, I’m of the view that this is a package that should be rejected and I’ll be calling
on the Australian Senate to say no to this. The Government should go back to the
drawing board on this. This, in fact, should be a matter for the next election – it’s so
important to the future of Australia that the public has to have a big say in the
direction that this country goes in and something like this should be a central part of
the next election.
McLENAGHAN: Indeed, and, Senator, I just want to correct something I said
earlier, Stephen Parker is Vice-Chancellor of the University of Canberra, my
apologies for that error. But, when you look at this situation, and I suppose I’ll
probably be accused of Pyne-bashing here, but I noticed there was a separate note
today regarding those Ernie awards, you’ve probably heard of?
CARR: Yes.
McLENAGHAN: Well, there was an Ernie award – apparently Christopher Pyne got
the silver Ernie for this quote in the debates about education, I’m not sure if this
was in the Parliament or elsewhere, but he’s purported to have said sometime in the
last couple of months: “Women are well represented amongst the teaching and
nursing students, they’ll not be able to earn the high incomes that dentists and
lawyers will earn.”
CARR: Well, this is really –
McLENAGHAN: Did he really say that?
CARR: Yes, he says lots of stupid things. The point is he is missing the central part
of this and that is the right of Australians to get a decent education and to actually
share in the benefits that this society has to produce. What he’s managed to do is
offend people that are from well-off backgrounds, from middle-class backgrounds,
who are concerned that they’ll simply be priced out of the education provision and
also working people that aspire to pass on to their kids a better opportunity than
they had. So right across the board in this country, there’s intense public opposition
to what is being proposed by the Government, and that’s why I say this is something
so critical that ought to be an election issue and I trust that’s exactly what will
happen in an election, which of course will have to be within two years now. So it’s
not long to wait.
The Government has proposed a number of Budget cuts. The Parliament has said no
to those Budget cuts. These are measures that the Government can’t impose upon
the universities unless it changes the legislation – it hasn’t been able to do that. So
the claim that some universities are making – and I make the point here that
Stephen Parker is clearly not in this camp – but those vice-chancellors who are
saying that they have the choice between deregulation or Budget cuts are simply
wrong, they’re simply wrong. You don’t have to do it in this way, and in fact the
vice-chancellors are walking away from their obligations to defend public education
and public investment in education. They ought to be demanding that the political
system respond to genuine public need and fund the university system properly.
McLENAGHAN: And the question you’re talking about politics and whether or not
there’ll be an early election, who knows? The other issue is, I suppose, we’ve seen it
happen again this week, the fellow that I’ve probably disrespectfully called Uncle
Clive, the Palmer United Party senators – do you think there’ll be another deal?
CARR: All I can say to you is that all the indications are that they are going to reject
these measures, all of them, both public and private. I don’t know where this will go.
All I can do is put Labor’s view, and through the Senate inquiry put the evidence
forward that this is a measure that should be rejected by the Australian Parliament.
The public has an obligation here too, to be able to put to their senators what they
think about the situation, and I’m absolutely certain that all senators who are
genuinely engaged with the Australian electorate will know the public does not want
to see these measures introduced.
McLENAGHAN: Well, it’s going to be an interesting time, Senator, now you’re
shortly going back to Melbourne which of course the eyes of Australia and much of
the world will be on Melbourne this weekend with the AFL Grand Final, I understand
that like my team, Carlton, your team the Western Bulldogs won’t be featuring this
weekend, but do you have a tip for us?
CARR: Well, they’ve been rebuilding since 1954, so –
McLENAGHAN: When’s Carlton starting to catch up? For us was it the mid-‘90s?
CARR: A few of my friends who work in Canberra are telling me that the Sydney
Swans are the favourites this year, I think you can’t really go past that can you?
McLENAGHAN: No, probably not. Senator Carr, thank you for your time this
morning – have a good flight home, and I’m sure we’ll speak again.
CARR: Thank you very much.
ENDS