Academically Productive Talk:
Supporting Student Learning
with Discussion and Accountable Talk
August 15, 2011
SERP Summer Institute
Cathy O'Connor
Boston University
In the next 90 minutes:
1. What is academically productive
talk?
2. What tools support academically
productive talk in discussion?
3. Some examples
4. What does it take to get started?
But first, why focus on talk and discussion?
Why do educators and researchers in general
think that classroom talk has the power to
improve both students' learning and ability to
reason, and teachers' ability to teach?
Talk can reveal understanding and
misunderstanding.
This helps teachers adjust their teaching. Some
people call this formative assessment.
And students may themselves realize what they
don't understand and what they do understand.
Talk supports robust learning by
boosting memory in several ways.
Talk is a rich source of information, and plays a
part in almost every memory we form.
By hearing about (and talking about) concepts,
procedures, and uses, our memories have more to
work with.
Talk supports language development.
When talk is used intensively in classes,
students may get a richer sense of what words
and phrases mean, and when to use them.
Their control of complex grammar also
improves, in speaking and in reading.
Talk supports deeper reasoning.
Learning to reason well takes time.
It takes practice, and it takes working with other
people: explaining your own reasoning and
talking about other people’s reasoning.
In the classroom, teachers can give students that
practice by using talk in strategic ways.
Talk supports development of social skills
When teachers use classroom talk a great deal, it
gives students a chance to learn about respect and
kindness.
They learn that it takes time to understand somebody
else’s reasoning, and that they have to work to make
their own reasoning clear.
Over time, this improves students’ social skills and
ability to be patient and cooperative with others (and
with themselves!)
Nevertheless…
We’ve discussed the many obstacles.
*
We don’t have time!
What if no one talks?
I don't want to put them on the spot... some of my
students are too shy to talk in front of everyone.
Some of my students are English language
learners. Some have IEPs. I can't call on them…
What if Spencer just hogs the floor, as usual?
Getting past these obstacles…
1. Basic talk tools: talk moves and practices
2. Classroom norms that support respectful and
equitable discussion
3. Ways to get started (with your coaches and in
the Teachers’ Guide)
2. Academically Productive Talk
aka
Accountable Talk
What is
academically productive talk?
Talk by teachers and students about
academically important content:
• Talk that supports development of student reasoning
• Talk that supports improvement in students' ability to
communicate their thinking
"Accountable TalkSM:
Classroom Conversation that Works"
3 CD ROM set, Institute for Learning
Michaels, O'Connor, Hall & Resnick (2003)
"Academically productive talk”
“Discourse-Intensive Discussion”
“I’ve been teaching this way all my life and I
don’t call it anything.”
“Academically productive talk” or
“Accountable Talk” is based on
observations of teachers like these.
So today when I say “Accountable Talk” or
“academically productive talk” I mean to
include all varieties of teaching that use
classroom discourse strategically, to move
students to a higher level of reasoning
and communication about their
reasoning.
Starting around 1990, we conducted studies of
teachers who appeared to be highly effective
at using talk in their classrooms. We looked
for recurrent ‘talk moves’ that engaged students
and pushed them to develop their reasoning.
In our work since then, we have learned a lot
about how to support teachers in learning how
to use academic talk in their classrooms.
We saw that these effective teachers were
able to accomplish four steps that lead to
academically productive talk…
Steps towards productive talk
1. Helping individual students to externalize their
thinking– to share their reasoning out loud.
If a student is going to participate in the discussion, he or
she has to be able to share his or her thinking out loud, in
a way that is at least partially understandable to others. If
only one or two students can do this, you don’t have a
discussion, you have a monologue or a dialogue.
Steps towards productive talk
2. Helping students to orient to others and
listen to what others say.
If a student is sitting waiting to speak, and is not listening
to others, he or she will not be able to contribute to a real
discussion. Your ultimate goal involves sharing of ideas,
agreements and disagreements, arguments and counterarguments, not simply a series of students giving their
own, unconnected opinions.
Steps towards productive talk
3. Helping students to work on deepening their
own reasoning.
After you have gotten students to express their thoughts
and listen to others’ ideas, the discussion can still fail if it
does not contain attempts at solid reasoning. Some
teachers find that their classroom discussions are
superficial—students are not working at deeper reasoning.
The teacher must scaffold this consistently.
Steps towards productive talk
4. Helping students to respond to the reasoning
of others.
The final step involves students actually taking up the
ideas and reasoning of other students, responding to them
and working with them. This is when real discussion can
take off, discussion that will support robust learning.
Later, we’ll see a video of what this looks like.
1. Helping individual students to externalize
their thinking– to share their reasoning out
loud.
2. Helping students to orient to others and listen
to what others say.
3. Helping students to work on deepening their
own reasoning.
4. Helping students to respond to the reasoning
of others.
So how do teachers get this to happen?
1. Helping individual students to externalize
their thinking– to share their reasoning out
loud.
2. Helping students to orient to others and listen
to what others say.
3. Helping students to work on deepening their
own reasoning.
4. Helping students to respond to the reasoning
of others.
These things won’t happen consistently just by
virtue of a good question, or an exciting topic.
1. Helping individual students to externalize
their thinking– to share their reasoning out
loud.
2. Helping students to orient to others and listen
to what others say.
3. Helping students to work on deepening their
own reasoning.
4. Helping students to respond to the reasoning
of others.
3. What tools help you accomplish these
four steps to productive discussion?
First, the teachers we studied had set up
classroom norms for using talk
respectfully, and for ensuring equitable
participation.
Second, they used a variety of tools that
helped them achieve each of the four steps.
For the next 45 minutes or so, we’ll work
through these tools…
Tools to help take this step…
1. Helping individual students to externalize their
thinking– to share their reasoning out loud.
We need time to think!
so…tools that give us time to think
•Turn and talk / partner talk
•Wait time
•Stop and jot
You: pose a question:
“What does Michelle Obama think about tater tots in
school lunches?”
Them: 25 blank faces
•Wait time
•Stop and jot
•Turn and talk / partner talk
1. Helping individual students to externalize their
thinking– to share their reasoning out loud.
After you use these tools that give
students time to think, you can call on
students who rarely talk.
How does this help you?
1. Helping individual students to externalize their
thinking– to share their reasoning out loud.
Tools to help take this step…
1. Helping individual students to externalize their
thinking– to share their reasoning out loud.
Next: tools that help you draw out what
students are thinking so it can be understood!
Teacher: So how do you think the boy felt in this part of
the story? Davide, how do you think he felt?
Davide: Um, okay?
A simple talk move that help students
externalize and explain their thinking…
SAY MORE…
•Can you say more about that?
•Can you give an example?
•I’m not quite sure I’m getting the whole thing. Can
you tell us more?
Can you say more?
T: So how did you solve that addition problem?
S: Add.
T: OK, can you say more? Can you tell us more
about how you did that?
S: Umm, I knew it was eight, and then I added on
nine, ten, eleven.
T: So you used counting on! Is that right?
S: Yes.
The teacher draws out the student’s thinking, encourages
him to explain his strategy, and gets a chance to add in
some math vocabulary
Can you give an example?
T: What did your partner do while you put the puzzle
together?
S: Wrote stuff.
T: OK, can you say more? Can you give us an
example?
S: She wrote down what I did, ... like step by step.
T: OK, Graziella, can you share some of your notes
that your partner just mentioned?
The teacher draws out the student’s thinking, encourages
her to explain, and involves other students in the activity.
And another tool to help take this step:
1. Helping students to externalize their thinking–
to share their reasoning out loud.
Revoicing: what is it?
T: So is the sum going to be positive or negative?
S: Well, the thingy is over that way, so it’s positive.
T: OK, so are you saying that our arrow is going to
the right, past the zero, so it’ll be positive? Is
that what you’re saying?
S: Yeah.
The teacher notes that the student is saying or
thinking something, repeats part or all of a
student's utterance, and asks the student to
verify whether her interpretation is correct.
Some people call this verify and clarify.
So what?
What does revoicing, or verify &
clarify, do for teacher and learners?
Verify and clarify: An example
"What??"
GOAL:
1. Helping individual students to externalize their
thinking– to share their reasoning out loud.
OBSTACLE: Often a student says something that
is completely unclear. Very often.
Many teachers feel uncomfortable asking the
student to clarify, because they don't want to put
the student on the spot.
And they don't want to look like an idiot if
they still can't understand the student after
the student tries to clarify.
So they just move on… and lose the chance
for formative assessment.
Revoicing gives a way to deal with this.
This teacher has been reading a story to her 3rd
grade about orphans going to be placed in the
Midwest. An agent from the orphanage is picking
them up at the train: Miss Randolph.
One girl makes a comment that is not at all clear.
“Miss Randolph is like the… like, mother? taking
care of the kids at the station?”
The teacher tries to clarify…
Teacher: OK, so let me see if I understand
what you're saying.
Teacher: What you said was that Miss
Randolph is…their mother??
Girl: No. The… kind of like a mother, but she's
the one that discovered them and brang
them to the orphanage.
What is happening here?
•The teacher is confused at first, but then
gets a clearer sense of what the student
understands and doesn’t understand.
This is formative assessment at its best.
What is happening here?
• The student realizes that the teacher
wants to understand her contribution.
The teacher doesn’t just assume that she
is wrong.
Over time, this can have a profound
effect.
What is happening here?
• The student can accept or reject the teacher's
interpretation, which positions the student as a
legitimate participant in the intellectual
enterprise.
So once the students are externalizing their
reasoning, sharing their thinking out loud,
how do you get other students to orient to
that reasoning, to listen to it?
Tools for the next step:
2. Helping students to orient to others and listen to
what others say.
The “Who can rephrase or repeat?” move
When a student makes a useful contribution, stop
and mark it as interesting or important. Then ask
whether someone can rephrase it in their own
words, or repeat it.
When the teacher uses “who can repeat?”
or “who can put that in their own words?” it serves to
get everyone on the same page, to focus attention
and make sure everyone gets another chance to
hear.
These all serve the goal:
2. Helping students to orient to others and listen to
what others say.
Teacher: Put your hand up if you
understand what she just said.
Teacher: OK, keep your hand up if you
think you can repeat what she said.
Student repeating
Tools for the next step:
2. Helping students to orient to others and listen to
what others say.
Note: it is not a good idea to start out using this
move as a classroom management device,
although that may be tempting. It is not about
catching students who are not paying attention. It is
best to always start with a student who wants to try
to put another student’s contribution in their own
words.
Trouble-shooting
Q: What if a student I call on can’t repeat or
rephrase what another student has said? Or
what if they refuse to?
A: You can make it clear that it’s perfectly fine to not
be able to repeat or rephrase, but if a student who is
called on didn’t hear or didn’t understand or can’t
repeat, they need to ask the original student to say it
again.
Trouble-shooting
Q: What if a student repeats or rephrases what
another student has said, but they get it wrong?
Should I correct that or ignore it or what?
A: When you’re talking about complicated ideas, it’s
easy to misunderstand what someone has intended.
You shouldn’t be afraid to check back with the
original speaker and ask “Is that what you meant?
Did we understand you correctly?” Over time, this
will help students become more resilient
communicators.
One more tool:
2. Helping students to orient to others and listen to
what others say.
“Share what your partner said” (Using ‘partner
talk’ to support listening)
When you use partner talk, you can support your
goal of getting students to orient towards and listen
to one another. Often, students who are not good at
listening to others will focus only on their own
answer in a partner talk situation. You can start to
change this by purposefully asking students to report
out on what their partner had to say.
OK, now you have steps 1 and 2
working. What about 3?
1. Helping individual students to externalize
their thinking– to share their reasoning out
loud.
2. Helping students to orient to others and listen
to what others say.
3. Helping students to work on deepening their
own reasoning.
3. Helping students to work on deepening their
own reasoning.
The “Why do you think that?” move
When a
student makes a contribution, they may not reveal
much about their reasoning. They may focus only on
a claim, or an observation. The move “why do you
think that?” is a prompt to such a student to reveal
more about their reasoning.
3. Helping students to work on deepening their
own reasoning.
Why do you think that?
What made you think about it that way?
What is the evidence for your
claim/perspective/idea? Is there evidence in the
passage?
Do you have data to support that? What are the
important data points?
Can you connect that to something you’ve seen
your own life?
Can you read us something from the text that backs
up what you’re saying?
“Press for reasoning” or “Why do you
think that?” may take time to put in place!
Sometimes students are not used to explaining
their reasoning. It takes extra effort by the teacher
to get them used to this practice.
An example from the second day of sixth grade:
Ms. Lally, an extremely skilled user of Accountable Talk,
is setting up the norms with her new class.
They have not used Accountable Talk before.
A student, Mitchell, is being asked to explain his
answer to a "missing numbers" problem:
1
I am a three-digit number.
One of my digits is "4".
I am between 500 and 600.
There is a "1" in the ones column.
Ms.Lally is relentless. But by October
or November, Mitchell cannot stop
himself from explaining how he
solved a problem, or why he thinks a
certain answer is correct.
3. Helping students to work on deepening their
own reasoning.
The “Challenge” move: this is not about telling the
student he or she is wrong, or trying to shut down their
argument. Rather, it’s an attempt to get them to think
more deeply about their claim.
•What about this example? Would that fit what
you’re saying?
•Is that always true? Are there any exceptions
you’ve noticed?
•Hypothetical scenarios: what if we had a case
where...?
OK, now you have steps 1, 2 & 3 working.
What about 4?
1. Helping individual students to externalize
their thinking– to share their reasoning out
loud.
2. Helping students to orient to others and listen
to what others say.
3. Helping students to work on deepening their
own reasoning.
4. Helping students to engage with and respond
to the reasoning of others.
4. Helping students to engage with and respond to
the reasoning of others.
•What do you think about what she said?
•Who can add on to what he said?
•Who agrees or disagrees, and why?
Do you agree or disagree…
and why???
One powerful effect of using this move
consistently:
students start to spontaneously
give their reasoning.
Well, I agree with
what Steve said,
because he said
that like, he said
that um, if you
changed the four,
it wouldn't really
be seven fourths.
Well, I agree with him,
like, um,
but I disagree with
Lon…
because he said..
because, um, if it was
just four parts?
you could cut one
really small,
and one really big.
Agree or disagree and why?
An important reminder:
If you just ask for agreement or disagreement,
without asking why the student
agrees or disagrees,
students can 'phone it in' without really paying
attention to what the first student said.
"Oh yeah, I agree. Uh huh."
Another important reminder:
Disagreement can cause
social disruption and bad feelings,
so it's very important to set up your own routines for
keeping it civil and
focused on the content!
Once you have these steps in place,
you can have consistently productive talk…
One more tool to help with all of these steps…
Using your ‘poker face’ and
your ‘poker voice’…
Your students have been primed all through
their schooling to look at the teacher’s face
and listen to the teacher’s voice for clues to
what the right answer is.
When you scaffold a discussion, it will run
aground if students simply look to you for the
“right answer.”
Why? Because then they’re not looking
towards the discussable issue and their own
positions, they’re just looking to you.
So if you can keep yourself from saying
“Good!” and “Right!” and “Well, does anybody
have a DIFFERENT answer?”
you’ll be giving your students a great gift.
4. Some examples….
A small and impromptu discussion.
Look closely at what is happening over
this three minutes or so…
Ms. Davies has given her third graders a series
of numbers, and in a whole group discussion
has asked them to say whether the numbers are
even or odd.
They established the day before that if you
can divide a number by two with no
remainder, then it is an even number.
Paulo has tackled the number 24. His
contribution is less than completely clear.
0. Ms. D:
So Paulo, is twenty-four even or
odd? What do you think?
1. Paulo:
Well, if we could use three, then it
could go into that, but three is odd.
So then if it was . . . but . . . three is
even. I mean odd. So if it's odd,
then it's not even.
How to respond?
2. Ms. D:
OK, let me see if I understand. So
you're saying that twenty-four is an
odd number?
3. Paulo:
Yeah. Because three goes into it,
because twenty-four divided by three
is eight.
Ah hah! a misconception!
Now what?
4. Ms. D:
Can anyone repeat what Paulo just
said in his or her own words?
Cyndy?
5. Cyndy:
Um, I think I can. I think he said that
twenty-four is odd, because it can be
divided by three with no remainder.
Are you sure she should repeat that?
6. Ms. D:
Is that right, Paulo? Is that what you
said?
7. Paulo:
Yes.
8. Ms. D:
Miranda, do you agree or disagree
with what Paulo said?
9. Miranda: Well, I sort of . . . like, I disagree?
10. Ms. D:
Can you tell us why you disagree
with what he said? What's your
reasoning?
11. Miranda:
Because I thought that we said
yesterday that you could divide even
numbers by two. And I think you can
divide twenty-four by two. And it's
twelve. So like, isn't that even?
12. Ms. D:
So we have two different ideas here
about the number twenty-four. Paulo,
you're saying that twenty-four is odd
because you can divide it by three
with no remainder?
13. Paulo:
Uh huh.
14. Ms. D:
And Miranda, you're saying that it's
even because you can divide it by two?
Is that correct?
15. Miranda: Yes.
16. Ms. D:
OK, so take a minute to talk to the
person next to you. Do you agree or
disagree with Miranda’s or Paulo's
ideas? Talk to your partner.
[Students talk in pairs for a minute. Ms. Davies circulates
and hears Eduardo talking to his partner. He is an English
learner and he rarely says anything.]
17. Ms. D:
Eduardo. Tell us what you talked
about with your partner.
[15 seconds go by]
18. Eduardo: Yes, I agree with Miranda’s idea,
because you tell us something is
even is to divide by two.
And we can divide twenty-four by
three, and we can divide twentyfour by four. And they don't get no
remainers.
So I think we should stick with
two only.
What is happening?
The concepts of "even" and "odd" are being
sharpened and clarified, through bringing together
different students' understandings.
Together, these understandings provide a space to
engage with the idea more deeply.
In “partner talk” students get a chance to try out
their thinking before they share it with others. This
makes it possible to make their thinking public.
What could happen next?
Ms. Davies could reintroduce the definition from the
previous day and follow up to make sure students
understand it better now.
Because each student has taken a position on the
matter, they will be more focused on her explanation
of what they did yesterday.
Notice:
A productive discussion may involve a question
with a “right answer” or it may involve several equally
plausible “right answers.” Or it may involve issues of
opinion only, as long as there is some relation to
evidence and reasoning. In this case, there was a
right answer.
A discussion does not have to be lengthy to
increase engagement and clarify ideas! In real time,
this impromptu clarifying discussion would take
about two and a half minutes.
OK, that's nice.
But doesn't discussion like that just
emphasize students' misunderstandings?
The harsh realities of the classroom:
You can define and describe and "tell" the correct
reasoning, but there are certain to be students
who
a) didn't hear
b) didn't understand and feel lost now
c) think they understand but don't
d) have partial but weak understanding.
Classroom discussion can bring all these
students onto the same page, coordinating their
attention and their motivation towards the same
set of topics, concepts, expressions, and so on.
And it helps you understand their thinking…
But we have to be aware of the things we will
find challenging. Some teachers find it
challenging to actually discuss student thinking
that they know is incorrect.
Another example, large and planned.
Look closely at what is happening…
In Worcester, at the end of the school year,
a teacher brought together a group of 5th
grade students from a Sheltered English
class and students from a regular class for
four days of Accountable Talk.
This video is from Day 2. Ms. Bullock has
set up some of the norms, and is carrying
out a lesson about air: does air have
weight?
She sets up a pan balance with two
volleyballs. They weigh the same.
She takes one off the balance, adds ten
pumps of air, and asks the students to
predict what will happen when she puts the
volleyball back on the scale.
•Will it weigh more?
•Will it weigh less?
•Will it weigh the same?
Things to notice
•How does she use the activity (predicting which
outcome will happen) to help structure the
discussion?
•How does the teacher make sure everyone is on
the same page?
•What do you learn about the students?
Follow-up
Notice that these students don’t really refer to one
another’s positions, but you can see they are
tracking their own vote versus those of others.
By the 4th day of this study, these students were
making references to one another, and
occasionally asking one another questions.
5. What does it take to get started?
Some quotes from local teachers:
I find it challenging to direct the group
dynamic and create an environment where
kids can challenge each other without
coming across as judgmental.
Some quotes from local teachers:
I think the success of accountable talk in a
given classroom depends not only on the
specific "accountable talk" moves but also
on the success of social curriculum. In a
classroom with a culture of trust,
responsibility and genuine interest in
learning, accountable talk can be a more
natural outcome.
So what does it take to get started?
Establishing the conditions for respectful
discourse
Talk is respectful when each person's ideas are
taken seriously; no one is ridiculed or insulted,
and no one is ignored or brow-beaten.
Why is it necessary to establish conditions for
respectful discourse before you can use talk to
promote word learning?
Because most people will not discuss their
questions or their ideas if they fear being
laughed at, dissed, or ignored. If they don’t
participate, it won’t work.
Establishing the conditions for respectful
discourse
How can I establish those conditions?
•Explicit discussion about respect and
disrespect
•Clear rules to follow
•Clear sanctions for disrespectful behavior
•Consistent enforcement with zero tolerance
during classroom talk sessions
the "Green Sheet"
Establishing conditions for equitable participation
Participation is fair and equitable when
everyone has a fair chance to ask questions,
make statements, and express their ideas.
Academically productive talk is not just for the
most academically able students!
Establishing conditions for equitable participation
Why is it necessary to establish conditions for
equitable participation before you can use talk
to promote word learning?
Because if students know participation is not
required of them, they’ll opt out…"This is not for
me." If they don’t participate, it won’t work.
Establishing conditions for equitable participation
How can I establish those conditions?
•Clear rules about turn-taking
•Teacher attention to patterns of turn allocation
•Encouragement of students who tend to avoid
talk
•Turn-taking practices that support different
kinds of participation.
SET-UP WEEK
We are working on materials for each grade in
Word Generation so that you can have a week
before starting the actual units to
•Create discussion norms
•Practice the launch
•Discuss the question and positions
•Have a discussion or debate
•Practice the end-of-week writing
Thank you!
Questions?