Constructive Classroom Conversations:
OUSD-SFUSD Collaboration
December 5, 2013
Angienette Estonina, Nicole Knight
Cathy O’Connor, Jeff Zwiers, Gabriela Uro
SFUSD-OUSD.org
Objectives
• Create “common enough” understandings of
output and interaction
• Define the most pressing questions to answer
• Figure out best ways to collaborate to answer
our questions
• Develop drafts of products to serve both
districts (e.g., tools, web site)
Our aim is for ALL students and their
teachers to engage in classroom
interactions that foster
•content learning,
•language development, and
•complex reasoning
In many classrooms we do see such
interactions going on, now and then…
So our collective question is this:
How can we increase these
productive interactions,
and how can we improve them?
How can we increase these productive
interactions,
(note: this doesn’t mean six hours a day)
and how can we improve them?
(make them more inclusive, and more
productive for all students, particularly
language learners)
This general question,
how can we increase and improve
classroom interactions that foster
content learning, language learning,
and complex reasoning?
has four distinct dimensions:
What resources and strategies are
most useful for different language
proficiency levels – those needing
substantial, moderate, and light
scaffolding?
What resources will help support good
conversations in all content areas?
How do we get students to participate most
productively?
How can we improve teachers’ capacity to
conduct these interactions?
Is this a productive interaction?
Laura:
Eli:
Fran:
Amy:
What caused the fall?
The text said disease and war.
It also said crops and politics.
Let’s write down all of them.
Is this a productive interaction?
Mansur: I think there are different ways to solve it.
Lynn:
So? Just do what the teacher did.
Mansur: But why did she turn the fraction over
Lynn: Who cares? Just turn it over.
3a
9ab
Mansur: OK.
3c - 6 ÷c - 4
2
Is this a productive interaction?
Samir:
Delia:
Noe:
Aida:
What’s your hypothesis?
The feather will fall slower.
I think they will fall the same.
I think the feather’ll land first.
Is this a productive interaction?
Lisa:
I think the theme is being
honest.
Edgar: Yeah. That’s a good one.
Lisa: What do you think?
Edgar: I like yours about being honest.
Lisa: So are we done?
A Major Shift
“Why do I have to
talk to a partner?
I already know the
answer.”
Constructive Conversation Skills
(Mini-teachers)
Goal: Students independently build an idea
(e.g., knowledge, agreement, solution), using the following skills:
Create Idea
Negotiate
Ideas
Build Idea
Clarify
Idea
Fortify Idea
Formative Assessment Tool for Constructive Conversations
Questions:
• How do we scaffold skills
differently in whole class,
small group, and paired
interactions?
• How do we address ELs’
differing ideas for knowledge
shaping in interactions?
• How can we scaffold
academic message
organization, syntax, and
vocabulary for ELs?
From Zwiers, O’Hara, & Pritchard (2014), Common Core Standards in diverse classrooms: Essential practices
for developing academic language and disciplinary literacy. Stenhouse. | ALDNetwork.org
Conversations at Beginning Levels of Proficiency
Learning objective: Use reasons to argue the importance of a historical figure.
Prompt: Talk about what makes Abraham Lincoln a hero.
A:
B:
A:
B:
A:
B:
A:
B:
A:
How Lincoln a hero?
He stop slavery, the slaves.
How?
The war.
He fighted to stop slavery.
Muchos (many) died in the war.
Very bad.
But slavery is more bad. Lincoln is hero.
He won the war. They were free.
Comparing and weighing evidence with a
ACTIVITY FOR SUPPORTING IDEAS:
ARGUMENT SCALE Argument Balance Scale
Reasons &
Evidence
My responses to
opposing points
Reasons &
Evidence
Opposing
position
My position
3-D Version
2D-Scale
So the potential of these academic
conversations and productive interactions
is great…
Nevertheless—
This is not a trivial change.
Teachers need support—
three kinds of support.
How can we improve teachers’ capacity to
conduct these interactions?
1) Support in managing interactions
2) Support in planning for productive
conversations in their content areas
3) Support through helpful and insightful
observation protocols
Why do teachers need support in
managing academic conversations?
Because there are many
obstacles.
We don’t have time!
What if no one talks?
I don't want to put them on the spot...
some of my students are too shy to talk
in front of everyone.
“Fear of behavior”
Some of my students are beginning
English language learners.
Some of my students have IEPs. I can't
call on them…
What if someone says something and
it’s totally wrong, because they just
totally don’t get what we’re talking
about? Won’t that be humiliating for
them?
What if Spencer just hogs the floor, as
usual?
Getting past these obstacles…
1. Basic goals for academic conversations
2. Basic talk tools to achieve the goals:
talk moves and practices
3. Classroom norms that support
respectful and equitable discussion
FOUR GOALS
to create productive discussion...
whether in
whole group,
small group, or
pair interactions
Goal 1. Help individual students to share
their reasoning so that it can be
heard and understood.
If only one or two students can do this, you don’t
have a discussion, you have a monologue or a
dialogue.
Goal 2. Help students to orient to others
and listen to what others say.
Your ultimate goal involves sharing ideas,
agreements and disagreements, arguments and
counter-arguments, not simply a series of
students giving their own, unconnected opinions.
Goal 3. Help students to work on
deepening their own reasoning.
Good discussion keeps a focus on reasoning. The
teacher must scaffold this consistently, getting
students to dig deeper.
Goal 4. Help students to work with the
reasoning of other students.
Authentic discussion, or productive academic
conversations, involves students actually taking
up the ideas of other students, responding to them
and working with them.
A supportive but complex relationship
4. Helping students to work with the
reasoning of others.
3. Helping students to work on deepening
their own reasoning.
2. Helping students to orient to others and listen to
what others say.
1. Helping individual students to externalize their
thinking– to share their reasoning out loud.
So how do teachers get this to happen?
Goal 1. Help individual students to share their reasoning
so that it can be heard and understood.
Goal 2. Help students to orient to others and listen to what
others say.
Goal 3. Help students to dig deeper in their own reasoning.
Goal 4. Help students to work with the reasoning of others.
These things won’t happen consistently just by
virtue of a good question, or an exciting topic.
Goal 1. Help individual students to share their reasoning
so that it can be heard and understood.
Goal 2. Help students to orient to others and listen to what
others say.
Goal 3. Help students to dig deeper in their own reasoning.
Goal 4. Help students to work with the reasoning of others.
First, the teachers we studied had set up
classroom norms for using talk respectfully, and
for ensuring equitable participation.
Goal 1. Help individual students to share their reasoning
so that it can be heard and understood.
Goal 2. Help students to orient to others and listen to what
others say.
Goal 3. Help students to dig deeper in their own reasoning.
Goal 4. Help students to work with the reasoning of others.
Second, they used a variety of talk tools that
helped them achieve each of the four goals.
Goal 1. Help individual students to share their reasoning
so that it can be heard and understood.
Goal 2. Help students to orient to others and listen to what
others say.
Goal 3. Help students to dig deeper in their own reasoning.
Goal 4. Help students to work with the reasoning of others.
Let’s look at a few of these tools in
action, from the standpoint of the
teacher trying to guide a discussion…
An example from Word Generation 6th grade:
Excerpt:
Global climate statistics suggest that the average
temperature of the earth’s surface is increasing….Scientists
attribute these changing environmental conditions to
human activities like driving cars that use a lot of gas.….
Scientists project that temperatures will keep rising if we
continue to ignore the impact of our activities. Should
people be allowed to drive SUVs, which use more gas than
typical vehicles? Should companies be allowed to make
them? ….
The conversation usually starts
when the teacher poses a
question:
“So SUVs, those really big cars, use a lot
more gas. Do you think people should be
allowed to drive SUVs?”
What if the response is this:
24 blank faces. 1 or 2 hands up.
You think:
Gee, I can’t even get to
Goal 1. I’m just trying to
get them to say what
they think. Why won’t
they talk?
You realize:
They need time to think!
(and maybe time to
practice what they want
to say!)
Goal 1 Talk Tools:
•Wait time
•Stop and jot (1-2 minutes)
•Turn and talk (1-2 minutes) (also known as
Think-Pair-Share, Consider & Commit,
etc.)
Then…ask the question again.
So you give them time to think, time
to practice, and then you ask the
question again…
“So SUVs, those really big cars, use a lot
more gas. Do you think people should be
allowed to drive SUVs?”
What if the response is this:
Javier: Well, the thing is, it’s not… like… yeah.
Um…
You think:
Huh?? I didn’t
understand that at all!
Still stuck at Goal 1!
Now what do I do? I
don’t want to embarrass
him, and I don’t want to
feel like I’m putting him
on the spot…
Another talk tool:
“Say more…”
• Can you say more about that?
• Could you say that again?
• Could you give us an example?
So Javier explains, and you start to
understand his thinking. And that is a
positive thing in several ways.
There are talk move “families” for each of the four goals
4. Helping students to work with the
reasoning of others.What do others
think?
3. Helping students to work on deepening
their own reasoning.
Why do you
that?
think
2. Helping students to orient to others and listen to
what others say.
Can anyone rephrase
that?
1. Helping individual students to externalize their
thinking– to share their reasoning out loud.
Say more…
But it’s not always so clear which one
to choose…
What do others
think?
Why do you think
that?
Can anyone rephrase
that?
Say more…
So teachers need examples to work with, to
get used to thinking prospectively about
what will come up…
Norms: what does it take to get
started?
How can we improve teachers’ capacity to
conduct these interactions?
1) Support in managing interactions
2) Support in planning for productive
conversations in their content areas
3) Support through helpful and insightful
observation protocols
How can we improve teachers’ capacity to
conduct these interactions?
1) Support in managing interactions
2) Support in planning for productive
conversations in their content areas
3) Support through helpful and insightful
observation protocols
How can we improve teachers’ capacity to
conduct these interactions?
1) Support in managing interactions
2) Support in planning for productive
conversations in their content areas
3) Support through helpful and
insightful observation protocols
The complexity of talk:
“Talk moves” can turn toxic…
Intelligibility
Student
Engagement
Content
Coherence
Academic conversations are complex, need
to be planned, and can be exhausting.
They need to start small—
Even 15 minutes a day will be challenging at
first.
If someone comes in to observe with a
checklist of “talk moves”—
Enthusiasm and motivation can rapidly turn
to toxicity.
Conversations in 5th Gr. Language Arts/ELD
Context
• 5th grade Language
Arts/ELD class in San
Francisco
• Intermediate and early
intermediate speakers.
This Clip
• After reading an allegory for the Holocaust, students
discuss what could have happened if the animals had
stood together.
• They practice stating opinions, paraphrasing, and
clarifying
Conversations in Kindergarten Math
Context
• Kindergarten in
• A range of ELs and LMs
This Clip
• Teacher is working on linking vocabulary and 3 varieties
of mathematical representations in service of number
sense. Working with results of survey: how many
people are wearing shoelaces?
Website-based Resource Development
SFUSD-OUSD.org
Website-based Resource Development
Website-based Resource Development
Website-based Resource Development
Website-based Resource Development
SFUSD-OUSD.org
Video – Practicing Clarification & Elaboration Moves
Context: 6th grade History, Westlake, Viet-ly Nguyen; Focus on practicing clarification
and elaboration responses; Watch for strengths and skills to work on.
ALDNetwork.org
PD Topics Customized for Distinct
Audiences
Talk Moves PD
For Principals
For Central
Office Staff
For
Instructional
Coaches
PD Topics Customized for Distinct
Audiences
Talk Moves PD
For
Experienced
Teachers
For Novice
Teachers
For Paraprofessionals
Further support by
type of classroom
Hetergeneous
Classrooms
SIFE students
Homogeneous
L1 ELLs
Bilingual
Biliteracy
Pathway
Two-way
Immersion
classrooms
Further support by
type of classroom
and grade
K-2 3-6
Hetergeneous
Hetergeneous
Hetergeneous
Classrooms
Classrooms
Classrooms
SIFE students
SIFE students
SIFE students
7-12
BilingualBilingual
Bilingual
Biliteracy
Biliteracy
Biliteracy
PathwayPathway
Pathway
Two-wayTwo-way
Homogeneous
Homogeneous
Two-way
Immersion
Immersion
Homogeneous
L1 ELLs L1 ELLs
Immersion
classrooms
classrooms
L1 ELLs
classrooms
Setting norms: classroom artifacts
the "Green Sheet"
Another approach…
Another approach…
You pose a question to the class.
T ALK M OVE M AP
Then, what if ...
⬇
A STUDENT GIVES A RESPONSE.
⬇
FACES BLANK. ONLY 2 HANDS
RAISED.
You think:
I guess they need time to think!
You think:
Huh?? I didn’t understand that at all!
▶ Stop & Think or Stop & Jot (60 seconds)
then
useful move:
▶ Turn- and- talk (60 seconds) then
▶ Say more
▶ Ask again!
examples
Can you say more about that?
Could you say that again?
Can you give an example of what you mean?
So let me see if I understand. Are you
saying...?
⬇
A STUDENT GIVES A RESPONSE
THAT IS WRONG OR CONFUSED.
You think:
That’s the wrong answer, but it might be very productive
to discuss it!
You think:
Gee, good point! Did everyone get that?
Go back to the four moves to the left:
useful move:
1. Say more
▶ Can someone rephrase or repeat
that?
2. Can someone rephrase that?
3. Why do you think that?
4. What do other people think?
examples
Can anybody put that in their own words?
You think:
Who thinks they could repeat that ?
That’s the wrong answer, and it’s not going to take us
anywhere!
You think:
▶
I think students got that, but I need to dig deeper into
this student’s thinking.
Use your best judgment about how to
move on.
examples
useful move:
Can you say that again?
▶ Why do you think that?
Does anyone have a different view?
Well, actually, remember when we ...
(give correction)
examples
What led you to think about it that way?
What’s the evidence you used?
Can you explain your reasoning to us?
How did you figure that out?
You think:
Students heard this, but I want them to connect with
this idea!
useful move:
▶ What do other people think?
⬇
SEVERAL STUDENT RESPONSES
ARE OFF TOPIC.
You think:
We’ve really gotten off track. Even though they’re
engaged, this isn’t the question we’re trying to consider!
▶
Use your best judgment to get back
on track.
examples
examples
Who agrees or disagrees, and why?
Can you link this back to our question?
Who wants to add on to what s/he just said?
Can someone tell me how this fits in with our
question?
What do you think about that idea?
Does anyone have a dif ferent view?
Gee, what was our question?
Let’s recall where we’re going...
Cathy O'Connor | Boston University | mco@bu.edu
Talk Tools
Support
Materials
PD refresher excerpts
(short 2-3 minute powerpoints with voiceovers,
turned into movie files that can be played
through or stopped and started at will)
Instructional routines: step by step
descriptions
Step by step description of
‘one complex sentence at a time’
(LWFillmore)
Action
Research
Cycle
Reflect
& Plan
Act
& Assess
• Use new & adapted interventions and
strategies
• Gather data on student learning
and/or teacher practices for fostering
interactions during lessons
How can we
develop teacher practices for fostering
_________________________________,
effective classroom interactions,
______________________________
evidenced by _____________,
through strategies such as__________
• Clarify what teaching and learning
should look like
• Agree on evidence to bring in that
shows changes
• Create & adjust strategies
• Make a plan for assessment and data
collection
Analyze
Evidence
• Use observations, student work,
conversations, video, …
• Find patterns, surprises, gaps
• What is evidence showing and
not showing?
• Brainstorm factors that caused
the patterns
+
Final Word & Appreciations