Master Métiers de l’Enseignement, de l’Education et de la Formation
Mention Pratiques et ingénierie de la formation
Parcours Formation de formateurs à l'international
INTERCULTURAL COMMUNICATIVE COMPETENCE
IN FRENCH MIDDLE SCHOOL ENGLISH CLASSES
Mémoire présenté par Daniel Carr
Sous la direction de Martine Derivry et Régis Malet
Année universitaire : 2023 – 2024
Contents
1.
Introduction............................................................................................................................. 1
2.
Theoretical Section ................................................................................................................ 3
2a. Literature Review - Language and Culture ........................................................... 3
The relationship of language and culture .................................................................... 3
Identity.......................................................................................................................... 4
Language and culture in English language teaching (ELT) ........................................ 6
2b. Intercultural Communicative Competence ........................................................... 9
Intercultural Competence in Language Learning: The Development of ICC .............. 9
Defining “competence” ............................................................................................... 11
Models of Intercultural Communicative Competence ................................................ 12
Michael Byram‟s Intercultural Communicative Competence Model .......................... 13
Criticisms.................................................................................................................... 16
Benefits of Intercultural Communicative Competence .............................................. 18
Benefits of ICC on language learning motivation and results ................................... 19
Difficulties in developing ICC development in the language classroom ................... 20
2c. English Language Learning and Teaching in France........................................ 22
History of Language Learning in Europe ................................................................... 22
Contemporary times: English taught as a “langue vivante” in France ...................... 24
Results of teaching English in France – The French Syndrome ............................... 28
Language Assistants and other initiatives to promote ICC in French schools .......... 29
2d. Textbooks and their Role in Education .............................................................. 30
Textbook importance ................................................................................................. 30
Textbooks in English Language Teaching (ELT) ...................................................... 32
ELT Textbooks in France........................................................................................... 33
Language Learning Textbooks to Develop ICC ........................................................ 34
The role of textbook tasks.......................................................................................... 36
2e. Research questions and objectives .................................................................... 36
3. Methodology ............................................................................................................................. 37
3a. Introduction ............................................................................................................ 37
3b. Research Design and Approach .......................................................................... 37
Selection of materials ................................................................................................ 38
Selection of interview participants ............................................................................. 39
Research methods ..................................................................................................... 40
Data Collection Methods ............................................................................................ 42
3c. Reliability, Validity and Limitations ..................................................................... 45
Ethical Considerations ............................................................................................... 46
4. Results and Discussion .......................................................................................................... 48
4a. Introduction ............................................................................................................ 48
4b. Findings .................................................................................................................. 48
Phase 1 ...................................................................................................................... 48
Phase 2 ...................................................................................................................... 50
4c. Interpretation and relation to existing literature ................................................ 60
Overview .................................................................................................................... 60
Summary of findings .................................................................................................. 60
Interpretation of findings ............................................................................................ 61
5. Conclusion................................................................................................................................ 70
5a. Practical Implications and Recommendations .................................................. 71
Summary .................................................................................................................... 73
Bibliography ................................................................................................................................. 74
Appendix ....................................................................................................................................... 80
A.
Interview transcripts with vertical analysis notes ......................................... 80
B.
Interviews Horizontal Analysis ...................................................................... 117
Acknowledgments
I would like to thank all those who helped me achieve the completion of this work.
Firstly, to the people I shared this experience of completing a Master with, my wonderful
cohort of students and professors at the Université de Bordeaux. To Martine Derivry and
Régis Malet who have created and directed this master which brings such a great group of
minds together and have guided us throughout the year.
To mon ami critique, Hervé, with whom we have shared many supportive moments together
and read, reread, annotated and encouraged each other‟s work.
To my family, who always taught me the value of education, and who exposed me to the
diversity in the world and continue to support my journey into foreign cultures and
languages.
To my partner Clara, whose support, encouragement and achievements inspire me to push
myself to greater things, and with whom I practise intercultural communication and
experience its joys and frustrations each and every day.
Abstract
The dissertation examines the presence and impact of intercultural communicative
competence (ICC) tasks in English language education in French middle schools (collèges).
It addresses the growing importance of multilingual skills in an increasingly globalised world,
especially in Europe. The study uses a two-phase research design: quantitative analysis of
two English language textbooks and qualitative interviews with nine teachers. Findings
indicate that while textbooks play an important role in developing students' ICC, other
considerable influences such as native-speaker models are impacting French student‟s ICC
development. The research highlights the significance of ICC in language education and
provides recommendations for enhancing English teaching in the French education system.
Key words: Language, culture, intercultural communicative competence (ICC), textbooks,
language learning, native-speakers.
Résumé en français
Le mémoire examine la présence et l'impact des tâches de compétence communicative
interculturelle (CCI) dans l'enseignement de l'anglais dans les collèges français. Il aborde
l'importance croissante des compétences multilingues dans un monde de plus en plus
globalisé, en particulier en Europe. L'étude utilise un modèle de recherche en deux phases :
une analyse quantitative de deux manuels d‟enseignement de l‟anglais et des entretiens
qualitatifs avec neuf enseignants. Les résultats indiquent que même si les manuels jouent
un rôle important dans le développement de la CCI des élèves, d‟autres influences ont
également un impact considérable sur le développement de la CCI des élèves français.
L'étude souligne l'importance de la CCI dans l'enseignement des langues et fournit des
recommandations pour améliorer l'enseignement de l'anglais dans le système éducatif
français.
Mots clés : Langue, culture, compétence communicative interculturelle (CCI), manuels,
apprentissage des langues, locuteurs natifs.
1. Introduction
In the current day environment of our increasingly globalised world, decisions on
second language acquisition are of great importance. What is clear is the need for a
multilingual approach to education in a century that will see even more humanitarian crises,
particularly due to climate change, conflicts and the increasing disparity of wealth worldwide.
These situations will continue to fuel large waves of immigration, especially in Europe.
Additionally, the world is interconnected more than ever via improved transportation and
technologies such as satellites and the internet. Human beings now need to cross linguistic
boundaries like they never have before.
Thus, this need should be addressed. For decades, scientific studies have shown the
importance of intercultural communication (IC), in the additional language learning
environment. Within additional language learning, this is known as intercultural
communicative competence (ICC), which is the ability to interact and participate in another
culture in a language that is not your first. The benefits of incorporating the development of
intercultural communicative competences within language learning are numerous; however
there are several barriers that prevent widespread deployment within education systems.
Textbooks play a crucial role in that deployment, and are critical resources within all
education systems around the world, with textbooks being the primary teaching instruments
for most students since the nineteenth century (Bojanic and Topalov, 2016). Textbooks
provide a syllabus, a framework, and pedagogical principles that help especially
inexperienced teachers find their feet in the profession of teaching. Yet they are often
criticised, so it is important that textbooks are analysed to determine what they are trying to
achieve and if their content will help teachers succeed.
1
In the case of France, English education is of growing significance considering
France‟s role in the European Union and the state of the world aforementioned. With the
freedom of movement and trade afforded to this region, multilingual skills are needed more
than ever. English‟s role as the region‟s lingua franca is well documented (Cogo, 2016) and
French students should be educated to be able to interact, participate and prosper in the
European Union as a whole, including its role in a global context.
Middle school (collège) are the final obligatory years of schooling in France, and
therefore has been chosen as the focus of this dissertation due to its impact on all French
students. Moreover, collège level English textbooks have not been analysed for the potential
development of student‟s ICC in other studies, and consequently this dissertation provides
insight on a topic without previous academic research.
The research question of this dissertation is as follows:
To what extent are tasks which develop intercultural communicative competences
present in French collège (middle school) textbooks, and how do they influence English
language teaching in France?
2
2. Theoretical Section
2a. Literature Review - Language and Culture
The relationship of language and culture
The idea of the relationship between language and culture developed strongly in the
twentieth century, with several prominent figures advancing a discourse which suggests the
inextricably linked reality between language and culture. Kramsch (1998) explains that as
language is the primary means of communication amongst humans in social environments, it
is the basis of our culture. Language provides us linguistic signs to explain the reality of our
world, signs which are generally agreed upon by speakers of a specific language.
Linguistic relativity, which describes language as an understanding of reality, first
rose to prominence through the Sapir-Whorf theory (Sapir, 1949). It hypothesises that our
version of reality is shared by the same speech or discourse community, who then use their
language to interact and thus constantly evolve their own culture. For instance, the same
words can have different meanings across cultures. What a person from one culture defines
as “clean” might be interpreted as “dirty” by another. Similarly, appropriateness of language
helps us understand linguistic relativity. Kramsch (1998) explains that this is carried out in
several ways, including discourse accent, which stipulates the topics, jargon, rhythm,
grammar and accent of a particular cultural group. For example, when one walks into a store
in France, there is a clear national cultural expectation to announce yourself to the shop
owner or assistant by saying ―Bonjour‖, whereas in Australia, this expectation does not exist.
This appropriateness of the language is carried out in all facets of society.
Moreover, a cultural knowledge of history is shared amongst a speech community.
Perhaps more obvious since the beginning of literacy and print, but everything from
buildings, monuments and history books, to popular TV shows and literature help form a
3
shared experience of everything that came before us. This is only possible due to the
sharing of this knowledge through language. This shared knowledge similarly creates
common imagination, which can be seen through the ways different cultures may stereotype
other cultures (Kramsch, 1998). For example, French people may tend to stereotype
Australians as having long blonde hair and a surfboard under their arm, whereas Australians
may picture something completely different about themselves. Australians meanwhile may
picture Paris as a beautiful clean city with twinkling lights along the Seine, while people from
Bordeaux might imagine Paris as a crowded metro with rats spilling onto the platform.
Another important lens through which to view the bound nature of language and
culture is through that of linguistic imperialism. While this dissertation does not serve to
attempt to rationalise English as the world‟s lingua franca, it is indisputable that the rise of
western culture – especially North American culture, has coincided with the rapid rise of
English as a worldwide language throughout the twentieth century and into the twenty-first
century. This is particularly notable in advertising, where North American capitalist influence
has spread around the world and taken English with it. In most countries of the world English
is used in advertising, often selling western cultural products using American celebrities to
market them. English has also become the de facto language of business, politics and
international organisations, through the power of the anglophone nation economies around
the world.
Identity
Language and culture are also inextricably linked through the lens of identity.
According to Kramsch (1998, p.77) “language is the most sensitive indicator between an
individual and a given social group.” As culture is created – or rather cultivated, spread and
developed across various social groups it is language that acts as a vector for such
socialisations in most cases. Hence, people think and act in various different ways to belong
to different sub groups in societies, which form their self-perceived identity through socio4
linguistic expression. This thought is supported by Norton (2013, p.4) who defines identity as
“the way a person understands his or her relationship to the world, how that relationship is
structured across time and space, and how the person understands possibilities for the
future”. For example, in order to „fit in‟, a group of teenagers will use a specific vernacular
between themselves to say “I belong to this group”. They might use certain words or
phrases, or use other linguistic tools to form a common type of humour. A group of teenage
boys, who self-identify as “cool” due to their own values system, will speak differently to each
other than a group of boys who self-identify as “intelligent”.
Meanwhile, in multilingual individuals, we can note code-switching as a mechanism
of identity, whereby a speaker will change between two or more languages depending on a
variety of contexts, and who they are speaking to. Take India for example, where amongst
fellow well educated and middle-to-upper class Indians, the use of English is frequent.
Speakers code-switch between Hindi (or another regional language) and English to assert
their own education and class.
For language learners, as Joseph (2004, p.224) explains “any study of language
needs to take consideration of identity if it is to be full and rich and meaningful, because
identity is itself at the very heart of what language is about, how it operates… and how it is
used, every day, by every user, every time it is used”. Not only is identity at the heart of
language, it is also at the heart of language learning itself. Consider a typical language
learner, who desires to one day be a competent user of their target language. This
imagination they conjure is that of a new identity, perhaps of a bilingual speaker. With that
imagination comes all the possibilities of access to different cultural groups, which increases
their own cultural capital and potential. This could be a work environment, a population of
people from a different country, or in the case of English, access to as many different cultural
groups, societies and people as possible. This notion of imagined identity has an enormous
influence on student investment, according to Norton (2013) who advocates for language
5
teaching pedagogy to take imagined identity seriously due to its important implications on
learner‟s motivations. Liddicoat & Scarino, 2013, expand on this by stating the importance of
viewing culture as a dynamic set of practices rather than a body of information, as this aids
the learner to position their own identity as being able to interact, participate and ultimately
influence the target language and culture itself.
Language and culture in English language teaching
(ELT)
The English language was traditionally taught in the way many others were, with the
grammar-translation method dominating the language learning pedagogy up until World War
II. Culture would enter language classrooms in literary form, where students would study
famous literary works in the foreign language, and be asked to translate them. According to
Brutt-Giffler (2002), as cited by Kramsch & Hua (2016), ELT only gathered serious
momentum through the geo-political contexts of the world post World War II, in which the
cold war pushed globalisation to new levels through its own power struggles. English
became the language of the international market‟s economic prosperity, where the
communicative approach to language learning developed, perhaps to meet the needs of
international economic interests (Kramsch, Hua, 2016). It was only in the 1990s that more
critical cultural analysis entered the ELT landscape, a timely introduction considering
English‟s role as the world‟s adopted lingua-franca, where now teachers had to factor culture
into their own teaching. As already established, the link between culture and language is
inseparable, and so the globalised nature of the world we now live in results in a huge
increase in access to members of different communities and their languages, hence the
increase in need for cultural and intercultural education in language classrooms. Whilst other
languages may be able to be taught in reference to one nation-culture (Japanese), or a
several nations‟ culture (Spanish), English is an exception due to its use as a lingua franca
worldwide.
6
Derivry (2016) alludes to the importance of languages around the world, emblematic
of the powers of the nation state, their language and what that means in the context of a
globalised world. Languages are positioned on a world ladder with some langues centrales,
including French, Spanish and German, holding considerable power worldwide. Langues
périphériques, hold little to no power and then one langue hyper-centrale, English,
dominantly stands alone at the apex of the champs linguistique – the linguistic terrain.
Whilst the concern and debate over having one dominant lingua-franca worldwide is sizable,
this dissertation instead will choose to focus on what this phenomenon of English as a
hyper-central dominant language means for teachers and students of the language. The
globalised nature of English cannot be ignored in ELT, but must be embraced, especially
considering that the majority of ELT is performed by non-native speakers to other nonnatives (Derivry, 2016), to then be used with other non-native speakers from different L1
language backgrounds.
Teachers thus need to decide how to approach this phenomenon, considering
English as a global language is no longer “controlled” by native speakers. This is still a
problem in ELT today, which despite the fact English is spoken by more non-native speakers
than native speakers, discrimination in the hiring of native vs non-native teachers is rampant,
especially in the private sector. This is further complicated by the role English Language
Teachers play in the globalisation of English. Derivry (2016) describes this complexity by
breaking down the manner in which ELT educators are at the heart of globalised mediation.
The author asserts that educators are involved in this mediation in: space and time,
linguistic-cultural hybridity, heteroglossic viewpoints, linguistic and cultural transformation
and development, langua-culture and more. Clearly, the role of a language teacher is a
complex one.
To summarise how ELT educators might perceive English‟s relation to culture,
Kramsch and Hua (2016) describe four categories in which culture can be linked to language
7
ELT practice, although of course individuals may form a hybrid position that could take
elements from each category.
1.
As a language of interest due to its identification or „ownership‟ of Anglo-Saxon
culture. This is related to the economic interests of English as mentioned earlier, and would
normally adhere to the native speaker model of language instruction. An example is that
British English is traditionally taught in a French school due to it being a neighbouring
country, or American English taught in Mexico.
2.
As a language of aspiration and modernity, in which English is a language
spoken by its native speakers, and all people who are in contact with those speakers. This
model focuses on the benefits of having access to the English speaking world, and appeals
to those interested in English pop-culture such as Hollywood or the British and American
music industries, or immigrants, or those wanting to immigrate to an Anglophone country.
3.
As a language of communication to be used globally, as a skill to unite a
globalised culture. This can include business English, and general English with a
concentrated view on English as a lingua-franca between non-native speakers.
4.
As a language of the diaspora, where many places of the world may use English
as an official language despite it perhaps not being the first language of its population. This
is typical of colonised countries and populations, who contribute to English language media,
worldliness and language evolution. For example, Singlish in Singapore.
Through a mix of these ideas and cultural developments in ELT and the English
language itself, the development of intercultural communication (IC) and its importance in
ELT rose to prominence in the 1990s.
8
2b. Intercultural Competence and Intercultural
Communicative Competence (ICC)
With its modern origins in fact dating to the 1950‟s (Kramsch, Hua. 2016),
intercultural competence (IC) has slowly developed to what it is today. Initially a means of
national security in a century dominated by war, IC was a means to understand the other in
order to protect oneself. This mindset changed later in the century when it became centred
on the „understanding‟ of the other for communicative purposes. However, this quickly
resulted in a myriad of stereotypes, reducing the idea of culture to one of national culture,
which led to simplistic contrary comparisons, for example 'individualist vs collectivist‟,
„masculine or feminine‟ or „hardworking or lazy‟ to populations of different nations (Kramsch,
Hua. 2016).
Ever since, the research discourse around IC has shifted from the nation-culture
mindset, and now considers all subcultures ever present around us to be a part of IC. This
means that as each and every individual has a different historical, educational, linguistic and
generational background, each individual is part of a range of subcultures, and therefore all
social interactions can be perceived as IC. Scollon and Scollon (2001), cited by Kramsch,
Hua (2016), describe this as the discourse perspective which places IC at the heart of
culture itself.
Intercultural Competence in Language Learning: The
Development of ICC
As already established, if we consider language and culture to be inextricably linked,
and intercultural relations to be at the heart of culture, we must then focus on IC within the
language learning classroom to effectively prepare students for interactions with people from
other cultures. For this reason, many scholars have studied the use of IC in language
learning education, and how to develop intercultural communicative competences (ICC) as
part of the language learning process. According to Lopez-Rocha & Arevalo-Guerrero
9
(2014), ICC as a concept was actually developed as a result of the impact of the foreign
language learning space on IC. This notion developed during the 1990s thanks to critical
work by Byram and Zarate.
Byram and Zarate‟s (1994) notion of „the intercultural speaker‟ challenged the
assumption that language learners should model themselves after native speakers
and emphasised the learner‟s ability to mediate between different cultural
understandings of the world and decentre from their taken-for-granted worldview.
(Golubeva et al. 2022, p. xxi)
Byram (1997) developed the necessary distinction between IC and ICC, in saying
that IC refers to people‟s ability to interact in their own language with people from another
country or culture, while ICC takes into account foreign language teaching and learning and
is defined by the ability to interact with people from another country and culture in a foreign
language. This idea was built upon the work by Hymes (1972) who initially regarded
language learning through the “communicative competence” lens, in which we must learn
language not only through grammatical and lexical competencies but also by using the
language appropriately (Byram 2020, p. 13).
Using the language appropriately and being able to interact with others from another
culture, has been broken down to three key abilities by Fantini (2000).
1) the ability to develop and maintain relationships, 2) the ability to communicate
effectively and appropriately with minimal loss or distortion, and 3) the ability to attain
compliance and obtain cooperation with others” (Fantini, 2000, p. 27).
However, “ability” is totally overshadowed by the term competence in the academic
discourse surrounding intercultural communication. Hence, it is necessary to define what a
competence is.
10
Defining “competence”
The addition of competence in the terminology is of particular importance. It
incorporates the post-modern language learning methods of the action-orientated approach,
which dictates a learn-by-doing pedagogy. Competence by definition in English places
importance on to do rather than to know, however it is not the same as the word “skill” which
implies an ability to be employed for a particular task. Having competence at something
incorporates employing a variety of different skills for the same purpose. For example, a
competent carpenter will be adept at using a hammer and nail, at levelling a piece of wood
and using a hand saw, and these skills put together result in a competence in carpentry.
It must be noted that this definition is not the same across all languages, although
ICC is translated across languages. Thus, the term could be interpreted differently across
linguistic borders. For example, in French, as per Gerard & Roegiers (2009), compétence
places more emphasis on the capacity to act rather than on the action itself.
La compétence est la possibilité, pour un individu, de mobiliser de manière
intériorisée un ensemble intégré de ressources en vue de résoudre une famille de
situations-problèmes (Gerard & Roegiers, 2009 p. 60)
This definition includes another crucial difference, “the resolution of a variety of
situations and problems.” It adds a layer of complexity to the English definition, and it will be
discussed in a later paragraph how this definition constrains the purpose of the IC/ICC
educational movement.
In the research field of ICC the definition of which competences to include are highly
debated. Through a detailed study of scholar‟s perceptions towards this term, Deardorff
(2006) found consensus in that intercultural competence means the attitudes and knowledge
as a determiner of the interaction between speakers. Yet this definition fails to determine
which competences make up the necessary attitudes and knowledge required for successful
11
intercultural communication. Similarly, Kramsch (1998) in her influential writing on language
and culture stated “a person who is capable to effectively interact across borders (be it
cultural, linguistic or national) is known as an intercultural speaker”, but this definition also
fails to define exactly what a person needs to be an intercultural speaker.
Placing competence within the terminology is clearly problematic. As Gray (2023)
discusses, by placing competences at the heart of intercultural communication is to reduce
the intercultural speaker to being capable of intercultural communication under set
circumstances for certain linguistic tasks. “Under set circumstances” is especially important
in the French perspective of the meaning "compétence” in which competences are defined
by the situation-problems in which they can be used. Not only is the number of potential
situation-problems endless in communication, the specific skills required are also endless.
Communication relies on an enormous amount of multifaceted skills, attitudes and
knowledge, and attempting to define them can limit the discipline in unnecessary ways.
Defining and listing competences in ICC may be helpful for an assessment of the
intercultural speaker‟s communication skills in certain situations, or when reviewing
pedagogy aiming at promoting ICC, but overall it is a poor method to conceptualise the
skillset.
Models of Intercultural Communicative Competence
Despite the difficulties in defining ICC, and ICC remaining a relatively new concept,
several attempts to model intercultural competences have emerged since the 1990s, with
Byram‟s (1997) model being the most popular. Other notable attempts include Guilherme‟s
interdisciplinary model for teaching/learning foreign cultures (2002); Deardorff‟s pyramid
model of IC (2006); Liddicoat and Scarino‟s five-principled intercultural learning model
(2013) and Dervin‟s IC model (2020), all cited by Dix, 2022.
12
However, there are similarities across all models, as carefully summarised by
Wilberschied (2015), stating that
For individuals having ICC, their language competence (including sociolinguistic and
discourse competence) is integrated with their knowledge of and insight into the
culture of the other, combined with their attitudes towards it…they are aware of the
nuances of the culture and the language on many levels, including semantics and
values. (Wilberschied, 2015, p.6)
Byram (2020) offers an explanation of ICC through the metaphor of the “sojourner”
(see immigrant), for whom these qualities as mentioned by Wilberschied can often apply. A
migrant who moves to another country is inevitably exposed to an enormous variety of new
cultural groups, and through the process of navigating through the arduous process of
language learning, but also cultural and socio-linguistic learning, will slowly develop ICC.
Byram states his purpose is to try to emulate that process in the classroom (p. 18).
But one problem lying within models of ICC, is a neglect of non-verbal
communication, with the exception of Byram‟s 1998 model of ICC (Alvarez-Valencia and
Michelson, 2023). When reviewing models of IC (which include ICC), Alvarez-Valencia and
Michelson found that other semiotic systems used in everyday communication often get
ignored. This included power dynamics, body language, combinations, and levels of
development (social or linguistic). The authors also pay note to these models in relation to
the practicability for teachers, stating that list-based models, while they do provide a
structure for student evaluation, are difficult to align a pedagogical practice towards.
Michael Byram’s Intercultural Communicative
Competence Model
Arguably the most influential and valuable model in foreign language didactics (Hoff,
2014) Byram‟s model of ICC (Byram, 1997) developed alongside the project built by the
13
European Council in the 1990s to form the Common European Framework Reference for
Languages (CEFRL). Consequently, we‟ve seen the impact that Byram‟s work has had in
conjunction with the European Council on language learning curriculum, especially in
Europe, as Golubeva et al. state
Byram‟s model of ICC and his work on intercultural citizenship have had a profound
and far-reaching influence not only within language education but also within broader
spheres of international, intercultural and cross-disciplinary education…His work has
also impacted on the development of curriculum frameworks and educational
practices within a wide range of institutions, language teaching organisations and
among individual educators. (Golubeva et al. 2022, p.3)
In France it is no exception, with the Programme National directly referencing and
using the CEFRL as part of its Langues Vivantes programs. CEFRL Chapter 5.1 „General
Competences‟ especially was developed upon the work of Byram‟s model of ICC (Golubeva
et al. 2022), and his influence can be found throughout the rest of this publication.
Byram‟s model (1997, 2020) is built on the disposition of the „intercultural speaker’
whom he describes as having several key components, including linguistic competence,
sociolinguistic competence, discourse competence and intercultural competence, which
must all successfully interrelate in order to be considered whole. Forming these components
are what Byram describes as savoirs, which are factors which allow the development of the
intercultural speaker:

Savoir refers to the knowledge of one‟s culture and other cultures that
learners are exposed to. It also includes knowledge of societal practices,
traditions and customs in both the student‟s culture and other cultures.

Savoir être refers to the attitudes one has towards other cultures and of their
own culture in relation to other cultures.
14

Savoir comprendre refers to the skills of understanding and interpreting a
text from a foreign culture, and being able to relate it to one‟s own culture and
experiences.

Savoir apprendre/faire refers to the skills of discovering practices from other
cultures and being able to interact in that environment.

Savoir s’engager refers to having a critical cultural awareness and political
engagement, and being able to engage socially or politically in another culture
or language.
The ideal illustrated by this model is one of equality, in which the learner views the
“other” in an open and curious fashion with hopes to develop successful relationships that
aren‟t influenced by prejudice or stereotypes (Hoff 2014).
To put this into the perspective of the language classroom, Byram describes
examples of tasks set for students to help them develop their ICC, such as: investigating
similarities and differences across cultures, especially from one‟s own culture (savoir), which
in turn helps students develop their attitudes towards the other (savoir être). Strengthening
skills in interpretation of texts or speech and connecting with those others in the language of
the other or a lingua franca appropriately (savoir comprendre, savoir faire). Put together, that
interpretation of foreign texts, dialogues and other forms of input, coupled with the ability to
interact across languages and cultures allows students to then achieve tasks of social action
(savoir s’engager).
Additionally, in his revised (2020) edition of his model, Byram underlines the
importance of the fifth factor (savoir s’engager), as being critically important in the
development of the intercultural speaker as a member of global citizenship, in which the
ability to engage and act on social causes is fundamental to that citizenship.
15
The fact that Byram‟s model divides ICC into five factors was found important by the
researcher to carry out the methodology of this dissertation. It creates a defined set of
“criteria” in which to analyse task based content on the basis of the development of ICC.
While there are many other models which aim to categorise ICC, notably Van Ek (1986),
Bennett (1993), Gudykunst (1993) and Deardorff (2006), cited by Byram (2020), which have
all contributed greatly to the understanding of both IC and ICC, it is Byram‟s model that will
be used for this dissertation due to its influence on language learning education in Europe.
Criticisms
The modelisation of IC and ICC is not without its critics. Due to the extremely
complicated nature of culture, language and the relationship between them, attempting to
categorise and define IC and its various competences to explain successful ICC is seen by
some scholars (Alvarez-Valencia and Michelson, 2023, Dervin, 2023, and Gray, 2023) as
problematic. As Dervin himself points out, “it is impossible to stop thinking about
interculturality and [...] locking her up in a „model‟ [...] runs against her messages of
complexities, her irrationalities and instabilities” (Dervin, 2023, cited by Gray 2023, p. 12).
The complexity that Dervin alludes to refers to the multi-faceted nature of
communication itself. The number of potential intercultural interactions and communications
possible in the world are as good as infinite. Hence, attempting to list, categorise and define
the competencies needed for all of these interactions is perhaps foolish.
Furthermore, the divisiveness in the presentation of both the „self‟ and the „other‟, and
the forms of engagement between them across self-defined borders is inevitably shaped by
“the political structures, ideologies, power relations, educational discourses and institutional
agendas dominant in the contexts in which they arise” (Golubeva et al. 2022, p.3). For
example, it is known that Byram‟s model of ICC developed during the same time as the
16
CEFRL, written by the European Council, which is a political body that defines general
political direction and priorities of the European Union (Golubeva et al. 2022).
As already established in this paper, there is an inextricable link between language
and culture, we cannot therefore assume that despite new terminology like “intercultural
competences” being developed in the West, that all languages and cultures will interpret the
term in the same way. While the terminology is relatively new, the concept of being able to
successfully interact with “the other” is not. Humans have crossed borders and interacted
with others throughout history, and by looking at older cultures such as China, it provides a
valuable insight into how different cultures perceive intercultural interactions.
In China, there has been a marked development of IC training led by the Chinese
Ministry of Education, notably in the business colleges and organisational training firms as
part of China‟s attempt to become a major economic power (Wang et al. 2017). However,
the mindset of IC is shaped by its traditional culture and some key philosophical terms that
date back centuries, according to a study led by Wang et al. 2017, who surveyed Chinese
students on how they would define IC. The most prevalent term described was xintai, or
“heart attitude”. Xintai encapsulates one‟s feelings and one‟s abilities to understand their
own feelings. Secondly, the idea of Yin and Yang can be applied to IC in China. Whilst
literally meaning “dark side” and “light side”, here it can be perceived as “us” and “them”,
both represented equally, both divided yet also containing a part of the other. It is the
interconnectedness which is exemplified, and illustrates a collective dependency of society
on other societies. This is in contrast to the Western idea of ICC as aforementioned, which
focuses on the individual. In China, the focus is more on a collective change, for the greater
good of the balance of Yin and Yang.
17
Benefits of Intercultural Communicative Competence
The benefits of ICC on individuals and for society are numerous. Let‟s first consider
the individual. An individual who is open-minded and seeks to understand the „other‟, will
have a much greater access to the combined human knowledge we possess, will be more
tolerant of the „other‟ and will develop a richer, more diverse sense of identity. These
qualities help individuals manage their daily interactions in the world in a more informed way,
one which helps them construct greater knowledge about the world around them while also
avoiding conflicts, disagreements and misunderstandings.
An example which highlights the diverse potential humans have can be found in
north-east Australia. The Kuuk Thayoore people have a completely different cognitive
approach when it comes to space, which is intertwined with their language. Thus, it is also a
valuable example of linguistic relativity. In their language they don‟t use words like „left‟ and
„right‟, but rather cardinal signs such as north and south (Boroditsky, 2018). Any time they
refer to space they use the cardinal sign. For example, they may say “can you pass me the
pen, the one to the west of the red one”. They even greet each other by asking “to which
direction are you headed?” Consequently, they are able to correctly identify cardinal
directions with extreme ease. It‟s an example in which by “knowing” this about their culture,
helps us develop our own understanding that even things that seem so obvious to us might
be perceived totally differently by another.
However, we don‟t have to go to northern Australia or other remote places to find
value in intercultural experiences. „Intercultural’ does not only refer to differences between
linguistic or national boundaries. Even in the same discourse communities, interactions with
the „other‟ are common. It could be based on social class, religion, education background,
race and more. Hence ICC skills can help everyone, everywhere, to decentre and attempt to
understand their neighbours. Moreover, individuals with developed ICC will have greater
access to employment, through their ability to successfully develop positive and constructive
18
relationships with those in their work environment, and will also have the linguistic skills to
use their professional knowledge and capabilities in more spaces, be it online or physical
locations.
On a societal level, a population with more developed ICCs is likely to be more
flexible towards development and conscientious of the social effort required to improve
humanity and our planet, and will help reduce racism and other anti-social behaviours, while
promoting sustainability, tolerance and diversity (Ilie, 2019). For example, the reduction of
ignorant stereotypes seen in France today, like “Arabs are not hardworking” is detrimental
and unjust, and does not serve to develop French society forwards in the twenty-first
century. Society should be able to see the benefits of immigration and diversity amongst
itself. Moreover, a reduction in this type of negative “group identity” mindset could see
benefits on major problems like sexism and violence. If we understand each other better as
individuals, we can agree to move forward and make progress collectively, to empathise and
find common ground in our humanity.
The societal benefits are more heavily weighted in some non-Western definitions and
practice of ICC development, notably in China as mentioned previously (Wang et al. 2017),
while Western academics tend to focus more on the individual transformation. This division
of the definition of ICC itself demonstrates well the ties between language and culture.
Benefits of ICC on language learning motivation and
results
There is also a real motivational benefit to the language learner to learn ICC in a
language course. As stated earlier, imagined identity plays a crucial role in intrinsic language
learning motivation. Normally, this imagined identity involves successful cross-cultural
communication. Teaching ICC allows this imagined identity to come closer to fruition, as it
builds linguistic and cultural skills simultaneously. Wiseman (2001, p.4), as cited by Ahangari
19
and Zamanian (2014) adds motivation to the definition of ICC, by explaining that
―intercultural communication competence is comprised of knowledge, skills, and motivation
needed to interact effectively and appropriately with persons from different cultures”
This unique element of motivation is described as “the set of feelings, intentions,
needs and drives associated with the anticipation of or actual engagement in intercultural
communication” (Wiseman 2001, p.4). In other words, motivation in language learning does
not merely come from the idea of obtaining the language, but rather using the language
effectively with the „other‟.
Various studies into the effectiveness of integrated ICC in English Language
Teaching (ELT) have demonstrated positive improvements in student‟s ICC, motivation and
linguistic competence, including Ahangari and Zamanian, 2014, Lee et al. 2014 and Tran &
Duong, 2018. It seems when students are provided intercultural impetus in their language
learning, motivation increases which drives improved learning performance.
Difficulties in developing ICC development in the
language classroom
The role of the language teacher in developing student‟s ICC within the language
learning classroom is of utmost importance, as Byram (1997) explains, teachers must lead
students in activities in which attitudes of the other are considered, ideally leading to a
transformation within the learner through questioning their own preconceived ideas and
entering a process of curiosity and discovery to ultimately experience and engage in
relationships of reciprocity.
However, leading students in this process of personal transformation and discovery
could prove especially difficult for teachers who haven‟t experienced that transformation
themselves. This could explain why “language teachers often view their primary concern to
be with language” (Gray 2023, p. 27). According to Gray, teachers have difficulty in
20
presenting culture as a neutral subject, and going against the common ethos that teachers
much teach in a neutral manner, and avoid questions of politics, religion, conflict,
domination, and subjugation, for example. Considering these issues are all greatly important
to understanding other cultures, it is evidently a potential pitfall to the development of
teachers employing ICC practices in the classroom.
Take for example, a task which asks students to reflect on how celebrating “Australia
Day” might be controversial in Australia due to historical events. A French English language
teacher unaware of Australia‟s colonial history may find colonial history too sensitive a topic
to deal with in an English class and they could consider it outside of their own expertise,
especially considering the landscape of colonial discussions in France. However, studying
this type of topic in an English class would be of tremendous value to students from an ICC
perspective.
Should teachers attempt only to teach language in their classroom, it will inevitably
fail anyway, as language itself is never neutral (Derivry, 2016). The mere fact of teaching
English in France (or any other country), is emblematic of the dominance of British and
American cultures around the world in the twentieth century and beyond. Meanwhile, nativespeakerism (which is ever-present in language education) is also an ideology of power.
Native speakers are presented as the “owners” of correct grammar and vocabulary, where
whatever they say must be “correct”. A conversation between a native and non-native
speaker is hardly neutral, with the native speaker having access to much wider variety of
vocabulary and grammar structures to converse, or to argue a point. The feeling of “I wish I
had said that”, that every person experiences during verbal conflict is much more common
when speaking in a language that is not your mother tongue.
Developing teacher awareness of ICC and the professional development required to
assimilate ICC more into the language learning classroom is a great challenge for education
21
systems all over the world. Let us now consider the historical context of language learning in
France and Europe to better understand the current climate and potential for change.
2c. English Language Learning and Teaching
in France
History of Language Learning in Europe
Language learning and teaching did exist in Europe before the creation of modern
education systems but in a very limited way. Typically, Latin and Greek were the languages
taught to the elite classes in Europe with English rarely studied (Howatt and Smith, 2014).
However, as philosophy and literature continued to develop, so did the appetite of
philosophers to expand their knowledge, who therefore sought out famous English literature
to appease this appetite. This began the first era of what Howatt and Smith (2014) broke
down into four eras of modern language teaching across Europe.
1.
The Classical Period (1750-1880) which was dominated by the grammar-
translation method, through which literary texts were the sole focus of language learning.
Philosophers and other elites were not interested in conversing with foreign language
speakers, they instead wanted to translate the ideas into their own language to further their
own philosophies and undoubtedly the social standing that came with it. With the increase in
travel and communications across borders later in the nineteenth century, many began to
question the utility of the grammar-translation method.
2.
The Reform Period (1880-1920) constituted a movement away from the
grammar-translation methods to the more direct methodologies, which began to place
spoken language at the heart of language learning. Text-based approaches, phonetics and
conversation all entered the language classroom around Europe and France adopted these
reforms formally in 1901-02 (Puren, 1988, cited by Howatt and Smith, 2014), to specifically
target spoken language.
22
3.
The Scientific Period (1920-2000+) saw language learning and teaching begin to
be dictated by scientific method, with the rise of social and psychological science in the
twentieth century. This period saw methods such as the situational method, in which “real
contexts” provided the basis for language learning, with drills and exercises created from
these “situations” in order to memorise grammatical structures and vocabulary. This period
also saw graded material become important, with certain vocabulary and grammar structures
ordered by difficulty based on their prevalence in the language. The audio-visual method
was developed in France and used real video and audio of native speakers for the first time
in language classrooms. (Howatt and Smith 2014) (Tardieu, 2014).
4.
The Communicative Period (1970-2000+) is still ongoing and is defined by its
approach to student based learning which prepares students for interactions in the real
world. Classroom activities such as role-plays, speaking improvisation, task-based work and
speaking games are all now commonly used. The communicative approach was introduced
to French collège, in 1985 and to lycée, in 1987, marking a departure from the audiovisual
method (Tardieu, 2014).
Meanwhile the action orientated approach (L’approche actionelle) as discussed by
Tardieu (2014) has been developed during the communicative period. There is some debate
as to whether it is to be included under the umbrella of the communicative approach or
outside it.
L'approche orientée vers l'action, ou approche actionnelle, est ancrée dans un
paradigme constructiviste et amène l'apprentissage basé sur les tâches à un niveau
où la classe et le monde extérieur sont intégrés dans d‟authentiques pratiques
communicatives (L‟approche Actionelle, Council of Europe, 2024).
The Common European Framework for Reference for Languages (CEFRL), is a
fundamental publication for the practice of foreign languages in Europe, and was developed
23
in 2001 by the European Council during this period of change towards the action orientated
approach method. The document had huge implications on language learning teaching and
learning across Europe and the French Government has adapted this framework to their
curriculum which will be discussed in more detail in the following sub-section.
Contemporary times: English taught as a “langue
vivante” in France
The national program
Currently, English is taught as a subject throughout the French schooling system and
whilst this dissertation is focusing on English taught at collège level, it‟s important to note the
other levels of schooling and what skills French students are expected to have developed by
certain stages of their schooling. Hence, the Programme National will be discussed in detail,
a document which provides the most valuable insight into the expectations of the French
government of its schooling at a national level.
The Programme National, is a highly defined list of norms, based on the historical
French view that all students should be learning the same skills and knowledge, consistent
with the French Republic‟s value of égalité.
Les programmes définissent les connaissances essentielles et les méthodes qui
doivent être acquises au cours du cycle par les élèves. Ils constituent le cadre
national au sein duquel les enseignants organisent leurs enseignements en prenant
en compte les rythmes d'apprentissage de chaque élève. (Programmes Scolaires,
Ministère de l'Éducation nationale)
Both teachers, and textbooks, must abide by the Programme in order for French
pupils to acquire the learning goals set by the program. Therefore the following paragraphs
provide a picture of English learning within French educational institutions, from the
perspective of the government itself. Part of the role of this dissertation will be to examine
24
whether the Programme National is being adhered to, especially in regards to the role of
culture within the English learning environment.
L'école maternelle (Students 3 to 5 years old) - At this early stage, French students
are exposed to English for the first time. Songs and games take precedence to offer
students a first contact with English as a foreign language. There are no enforced teaching
hours of English at this point, though teachers are encouraged to incorporate the foreign
language into their classroom. (Ministère de l'Éducation nationale).
L'école primaire (6-11 years) – One and a half teaching hours per week are
compulsory at this level. Although English is not universally taught as an LV1 (première
langue vivante) in France, it is studied by 95% of French students as their LV1 (Ministère de
l'Éducation nationale). By the end of primary school, students should have an A1 level of
their LV1 according to the Common European Framework and Reference for Languages
(CEFRL), though it is not compulsory in order to graduate to collège.
Collège (11-15 years) English (if chosen as LV1) is taught at collège for four hours
per week, or two hours if chosen as LV2. In addition, an extra subject called langues et
cultures européennes, can be offered by participating schools which adds two more hours to
the language program. By the end of the collège program, students are expected to
demonstrate an A2 level proficiency, or pre-intermediate level. A test, called Eval@ng,
evaluates students' receptive linguistic skills; oral comprehension (listening), and written
comprehension (reading), though it isn‟t part of the national exams (brevet). Instead,
continued evaluation of English (or other foreign language) is used to give a grade to the
student but will not determine whether or not they graduate from middle school.
The French education system places an enormous degree of importance on student
evaluation, so the fact that English is not evaluated as other disciplines are, could diminish
its importance in the eyes of educators and students alike. This lack of formal evaluation
25
could also be an important factor to why objectives in English are not met. Alarmingly, 46.5%
of students across various départements in Nouvelle-Aquitaine, failed to achieve an A2 level
by the end of collège (Académie de Bordeaux, 2022). Meanwhile, a report by CNESCO
(2018) found that across France, only 39% of students at the end of collège reached an A2
level of writing, 26% in listening and 23% reading.
As this dissertation will concentrate on the final year of collège, greater focus will now
be shared from the Programme National Cycle 4 (Ministère de l'Éducation nationale, 2020)
to examine the linguistic and intercultural expected development in this year.
Classe de troisieme
Part of Cycle 4, the troisième year is in fact the last year of collège and the final year
of obligatory schooling in France. Due to the nature of this being the final steps the
government sets for its citizens at a formal education level, it has been considered as
representative of the French education system's expectations, and thus is the focus of this
dissertation.
The Programme National for cycle 4 makes consistent calls for cultural knowledge
and skills to be developed amongst the students. In its second line it affirms that “Dans
chaque langue étudiée et dans la convergence entre elles, la découverte culturelle et la
relation interculturelle sont, en articulation étroite avec les activités langagières, des visées
majeures du cycle (p. 39)‖.
The Programme National divides its langues vivantes into six working competences,
one of which, although perhaps symbolically in last position, is the „Discovery of Cultural
Aspects in a Foreign Language‟, which is divided into four themes : language, schooling and
society, travel and migration, and interaction with other cultures.
26
La construction des compétences langagières s‟articule avec la construction
progressive de la compétence culturelle à travers l‟exploration de ces thèmes dans
l‟objectif de sensibiliser et d‟ouvrir les élèves à la culture des autres, de leur
apprendre à décoder et mettre en perspective des éléments de culture réciproques
pour progressivement se projeter dans une dynamique de mobilité. (p. 44)
It‟s interesting here to note the use of “cultural competence” and not “intercultural
competence” or “intercultural communicative competence”, which is emblematic of the more
traditional method of the classical approach, in which a language, and in this case, culture, is
studied separately and without a connection to oneself or how one might interact with it.
However, The Programme National outlines many examples of what can be
considered part of ICC without using the same terminology, including, amongst many more:
ouvrir les élèves à la culture des autres (savoir-être), comprendre les points de vue et les
visions différentes du monde (savoir-comprendre), se décentrer pour apprendre sur soi et
les autres (savoir-être), prendre de la distance par rapport à ses propres références (savoirêtre), dépasser les stéréotypes (savoir-être / savoir-faire), découvrir l’imaginaire d’autres
cultures (savoir / savoir comprendre), repérer des sources d’incompréhension de conflits
culturels (savoir-comprendre) chercher à les résoudre par un apport d’information et de
connaissances (savoir-faire), and chercher des points d’intérêt et de curiosité pour partager
des informations (savoir-comprendre, savoir-être).
Based on these quotes taken from the Programme National cycle 4, it‟s clear the
French education system is aware of the importance of ICC even if it is not specifically
referred to. It must also be reiterated, however, that the cultural elements written into the
Programme National cycle 4 constitute only a small section of the document on Langues
Vivantes which is much more focused on linguistic elements of English education.
27
The intention of the Ministère de l'Éducation is clear, Cycle 4 students are expected
to develop and acquire ICC.
Results of teaching English in France – The French
Syndrome
A comprehensive report on the state of language education in France was released
by the Centres Nationale d‟Etude des Systemes Scolaires (CNESCO, 2019). The report
found that France had made progress in the previous decade or so regarding a number of
areas such as instruction hours, student enjoyment and student perceived importance of the
subject, which all increased. However, in conjunction with the SurveyLang study (European
Commission, 2012), it found France well behind its European counterparts when it comes to
English competency.
By the end of collège, in regards to the expectations of students in France set by the
Ministère de l'Éducation, 75% of students could not produce a language that was globally
expected of them (CNESCO 2019). France‟s performance in language learning is attributed
to many factors by the CNESCO report, notably; starting mandatory instruction too late (11
years), a lack of exposure to the language outside of the classroom (dubbed T.V and
film/other media), a lack of teacher training (where around 40% of English teachers feel
unprepared for their job in their first year), and perhaps crucially, what the report describes
as the “French syndrome”.
The French syndrome is related to the ideology of the native-speaker, where nativespeaker language is placed on a pedestal and seen as the “correct” form of the language. In
France it is predicated upon the history of the French Republic in which regional languages
were banned in schools in favour of a one nation, one language ideal. The effects of this
spread through the government institutions, including in education. The problem with this
way of seeing language is it creates unrealistic standards of language use for new learners
28
of the language who will never reach the same proficiency. It is perhaps why in the case of
France, oral proficiency lags behind even more than the other language skills when
compared to its European counterparts (CNESCO, 2019). Students fear being inadequate
as they compare themselves to native-speakers of the language.
The Report fails to mention the role of ICC within language learning in France, of
which there are several initiatives taking place both inside and outside of French classrooms.
Language Assistants and other initiatives to promote
ICC in French schools
In terms of the place of ICC within English education in France, there are a number
of initiatives that help assist the goals outlined in the Programme National.
Firstly, the Teaching Assistant Program In France (France Education International,
2024) is a program which places English speakers (often native, confirming the French
syndrome previously mentioned) into French schools to provide linguistic and cultural
support to the langues vivantes program. The program promotes students‟ ICC development
by placing them in contact with speakers of English from different countries, which offers
students an insight into another‟s attitudes, beliefs and knowledge (including language) that
may be different from their own.
Moreover, since 2015, 23,000 students from primary and secondary level in France
have had a study abroad experience through Erasmus+. Students are able to study at an
equivalent level school in a foreign country, where they will develop both linguistically and
interculturally. According to Byram (2020), studying abroad can have an enormous impact
on one‟s ICC. While French students study in foreign countries, foreign students also come
to France as part of the Erasmus+ program, importantly exposing students to a peer of a
different nationality and culture.
29
Bilingual schooling also exists in France, with les sections internationales offering
students at primary and secondary level bilingual environments. In these bilingual sections at
collège, pupils at the end of their third year can obtain the “Diplôme national du brevet” with
the "collège series, international option" honour. The sections include six hours of foreign
language courses per week, and one non-linguistic subject that is taught in the foreign
language as well as French in a content and language integrated learning (CLIL)
methodology. International sections have three objectives; to receive and integrate foreign
students into French schooling, to allow French students to study a foreign language in
depth, and to promote the transmission of the cultural heritage of the countries in the
program.
At collège level, from cinquième students can (in some schools) take an additional
two hours of Langues et cultures européennes, a subject with focuses on the European
Union and allows students to see the English language as a lingua franca of the region and
its institutions. This remains an option only in some schools that choose to finance this
particular elective class, and can go hand in hand with the school also becoming part of the
Erasmus+ community (Ministère de l'Éducation, 2024).
2d. Textbooks and their Role in Education
Textbook importance
Defined by Gerard and Roegiers (2009, p. 10), a textbook is “un outil imprimé,
intentionnellement structuré pour s‟inscrire dans un processus d‟apprentissage, en vue d‟en
améliorer l‟efficacité”. This definition is particularly fitting in its use of the word outil (tool), as
it doesn‟t assume how it can or should be used, but that it is possible to use. The word tool
also has a connotation of “providing help”, which is a major reason of interest for this
research, as this dissertation is ultimately concerned with helping the improvement of
language and intercultural learning for teachers and students alike.
30
Textbooks are critical resources within all education systems around the world. They
have been the primary teaching instruments for most students since the nineteenth century
(Bojanic and Topalov, 2016). They provide a syllabus, a framework, and pedagogical
principles that help especially inexperienced teachers find their feet in the profession of
teaching. Yet they are often criticised, so it is important textbooks be analysed to determine
what they are trying to achieve and if their content will help teachers succeed.
According to Cortazzi and Jin (1999, cited by De Bartolo and Mancuso, 2021), the
textbook is viewed as a teacher, a map, a resource, a trainer and an authority. Students trust
the material given in textbooks as indisputable knowledge, as written by expert figures in
their specific field. Thus, they potentially trust textbook content more than their teacher. The
implementation and impact of the textbook depend on this authority, for without it they would
be rendered futile.
Teachers, particularly the inexperienced ones, can view the textbook as a trainer.
The textbook provides a foundational framework (a map) which covers a range of topics to
meet the learning criteria for that academic year. Teachers feel comfortable knowing they
haven‟t “missed” any essential content (a resource). As textbooks also follow pedagogical
and economic trends, they also provide teachers with ways to use new pedagogies or teach
different content comfortably (a trainer), under the safety blanket of the authoritative figure of
the text (an authority), as aforementioned.
However, many scholars and teachers criticise textbooks. Researchers such
Allwright (1981), Porreca (1984), Cathcart (1989), Clarke and Clarke (1990), Carrell and
Korwitz (1994) and Renner (1997) (as cited in Bojanic and Topalov, 2016), argue that
textbooks severely lack valuable resources as their material is often unauthentic, and
therefore simultaneously represents the views of the author and is prone to prejudices, bias,
stereotypes and other misconceptions.
31
The counter argument is that textbooks should only be used as a starting point, or a
reference. Teachers will always form their own opinions on specific books, units or even
individual activities within a textbook and then must decide whether they want to use them or
not. Harmer (2001), cited by (Bojanic and Topalov, 2016), describes textbooks as proposals
for action, rather than instructions for use. However, this is considered modern as it is
contrary to traditional teaching methods throughout the twentieth century in which the
textbook was regarded as the course itself (Bojanic and Topalov, 2016). There is a hangover
of this traditional teaching style still being used today.
Textbooks in English Language Teaching (ELT)
Like in any subject taught in schools, ELT has heavily relied upon the use of
textbooks. Every English teacher will have used a textbook at one point or another, and
could tell you the general layout of an English language textbook. Books are normally part of
a series divided by language level, with individual units comprising one or two major
grammatical components, combined with an overall theme that will be used to introduce
vocabulary, whilst also providing students and teachers with texts, audio, video, and writing
and speaking activities to cover all four major skills of language learning.
The authoritative nature of textbooks as mentioned in the previous sub-section is
particularly important in the language learning environment, when considering the influence
and symbolic power of native speaker language, or standard language use. English
textbooks present grammar and vocabulary as unequivocal learning outcomes, which can
certainly be argued. For example, who is to say that “they were‖ is grammatically correct
and that “they was‖ is incorrect, when even large populations of native speakers say “they
was‖ naturally and without miscomprehension? (Childs and Cole, 2023). This is not even to
consider the enormous population of non-native English speakers around the world who all
bring their own multilingual and multicultural influences into their English. As Risager, 2021,
describes, the language textbook is a window to the world. Most textbooks have historically
32
only presented cultures of the „target language‟, and especially the most powerful countries
using that target language. If we then consider the depth of sub-cultures comprising a
national culture, the choice of which parts of the national culture to represent is a powerful
one.
These examples serve to show the power of the textbook in presenting language and
culture, which is of utmost importance to young people on how they see the world. Thus,
language textbook authors and publishers play a vital role in the development of globally
minded citizens.
In fact, according to Richards (2001), the two major factors that go into the
development of a language learning textbook are the interests of the authors, and the
interests of the publishers. It‟s easy to imagine what the interests of the publisher are –
profit, however, Richards explains that publishers understand that their textbooks must have
a degree of quality to distinguish it from their competitors. Publishers also cater for teachers,
and by producing materials that meet teacher‟s expectations, the books can be considered
usable by teachers. This is especially noteworthy in the French context in which it is the
teacher that chooses their material, and not the institution.
Authors are generally interested in providing a course that is innovative, up to date,
and relevant to student‟s needs. The result is a textbook produced from the clash between
the publisher and the teachers, and quality versus cost effectiveness.
ELT Textbooks in France
As touched on earlier, a feature of the French education system is that the teacher
chooses their own material. This is in fact a historical educational principle established in the
1880s, after educational director Ferdinand Buisson wrote to the minister Jules Ferry
describing the idea of state textbooks as a “chimera”, a fire-breathing monster in Greek
mythology.
33
Il y aurait de graves inconvénients à imposer aux maîtres leurs instruments d‟étude,
et qu‟il n‟y en aurait aucun à leur laisser librement indiquer ce qu‟ils préfèrent
(Buisson, cited by Leroy, 2012, p. 23).
A decree was soon formalised in which free competition for textbooks was written in
law, alongside the free choice of educators (Leroy, 2012). As this is still in effect today, it is
hypothesised by the researcher as a potential limiting factor to the incorporation of new
pedagogies, notably in language education. If authors and publishers are more inclined to
target teachers rather than students, they will be less likely to incorporate new pedagogies
and principles into the language textbooks.
CNESCO‟s Report (2019) is critical of the free market model of French textbooks,
particularly due its effect on teachers. In France there are more than a dozen common
textbook publishers, all without a ministerial label the Report deems necessary to
systematically accompany teachers new to the éducation nationale institution. In other
words, because the Programme National is open to interpretation, and because teachers
have free choice over more than a dozen textbooks, it is difficult for a new teacher to know
what is exactly expected of them, which could be a detriment to their self-efficacy.
Language Learning Textbooks to Develop ICC
The degree to which textbooks are influential across education is evident, so the role
textbooks play in developing ICC must also be addressed. However, there are few major
studies on this (Vali 2015), with most research still addressing the linguistic appropriateness
of textbooks. Coupled with the fact that the state of ICC in language textbooks around the
world is undeveloped (De Bartolo and Mancuso 2021), it seems prudent to deepen
knowledge on this area to get textbooks up to date with the literature on language learning,
and the relevance of intercultural communication within it. De Bartolo and Mancuso detail
several barriers which limit the incorporation of texts and tasks that foster a learner‟s ability
34
to develop their ICC. Chiefly these are: culture being presented as facts (as knowledge to
obtain rather than process critically), the domination of native-speaker content, and the
domination of inner-circle anglophone countries being represented. These three barriers
usually co-exist as culture is presented in an English language course, and often represent
the “Iceberg Theory” (Hall 1976, cited by Lopez-Rocha 2016), in which surface level cultural
content such as festivals, food, sport, music and celebrities are studied rather than deeper
cultural subject matter like values, perceptions, gender roles and working conditions, just to
name a few. Paige et al (2003), cited by Vali (2015), describe this as a touristic point of view.
Typically tourists spend little time in a foreign place and therefore only see the cultural
elements that lie on the surface. You might try the local food, see traditional music at a
venue or go to a sporting event. These touristy discoveries, while interesting in themselves,
are known as “Big C” culture (Vali, 2015), whereas ICC is mostly concerned with “small c”
culture (values, perceptions, attitudes etc.). For a textbook to promote ICC development
then, the “small c” must be addressed.
So how can a textbook be analysed for content that promotes the learning of ICC?
De Bartolo‟s and Mancuso‟s study simplifies the analysis of ICC in textbooks by asking five
key questions of any given textbook:

Do the units develop tasks which develop student‟s intercultural skills?

Do the units include varieties of English other than standard American or
standard English?

Do the units address a wide range of social and global issues?

Do the units enable understanding of the role of English in globalisation?

Do the units encourage learners to rethink why they are studying English?
If a textbook can cover these five key areas then it can be considered an effective
ICC learning material. However, the authors discuss the limitations of this qualitative
approach, which remains very subjective. In order to attempt to objectivise the textbook
35
analysis component of the research, the analysis of textbook tasks was decided upon as an
approach by the researcher.
The role of textbook tasks
Tasks are defined as “a piece of work to be done” by the Cambridge Dictionary
(2024). In other words, a task is any call to action given to the student within the textbook.
Fenner and Ørevik (2020), cited by Bukten Haugen 2023, emphasise that in the
development of intercultural competence, textbook tasks should be open in order to
encourage learner involvement through reflection, interpretation, opinion forming and
discussion. That is to say, a critical component should be present. Moreover, the tasks
should facilitate the learner to develop their own autonomous learning in parallel with what
the task is requiring of them. A good example of this is a task which stimulates the ICC of
discovery, and which simultaneously develops a student's curiosity to discover beyond what
the task is asking the student to achieve. Ideally, students are exposed to an element within
the textbook and then seek to further their knowledge outside of the textbook.
More generally, the completion of tasks by students has two major consequences
(Bakken and Anderson-Bakken, 2021). Firstly, the student will acquire some kind of
information such as facts, concepts and principles. Secondly, the student will practise and
develop operations such as memorising, analysing, discovering and interpreting. Both of
these consequences interplay excellently with the development of ICC.
2e. Research questions and objectives
On the basis of the theoretical information presented thus far, the following research
questions have been formulated. To what extent are tasks which promote intercultural
communicative competence present in French collège English textbooks, and how do they
influence the teaching of English?
36
3. Methodology
3a. Introduction
The methodology section of this dissertation aims to provide readers with a clear and
transparent record of how the research component of this paper was carried out, to address
the following research questions:

To what extent are tasks which promote intercultural communicative
competence present in English language textbooks at middle school level in
France?

How does the presence of these tasks in textbooks affect the teaching of
English as a foreign language at middle schools in France?
Through this section, it is hoped that the validity, authenticity and quality of this work
will be stated in clear terms to provide the research the legitimacy it has aimed to achieve.
3b. Research Design and Approach
This research design was composed of two phases, titled Phase 1 and Phase 2.
Phase 1 involved the collection of data from two different textbooks, to quantitatively
measure the total extent of textbook tasks which develop student‟s ICC and its sub-factors.
Phase 2 involved semi-directed interviews with nine teachers or former teachers from
France and other countries, to help understand the influence of textbooks on their English
teaching. The interviews also helped the researcher draw information on the place of ICC in
English language education within a broader educational context.
37
Selection of materials
This research is primarily concerned with the assessment of the state of textbook
content which helps students acquire ICC at middle schools in France. Hence the selection
of textbooks was an important step in the process. It was decided immediately that more
than one book would be necessary in order to be able to provide multiple perspectives, but
at the same time it would not be possible to review and analyse every English textbook
being used at collège level in France due to the time constraints involved.
The researcher thus decided to focus on two textbooks, each providing their own
unique perspective to the analysis. One textbook was an edition from a major French
publisher, and the other a collaborative open access project created by French teachers.
Firstly, analysing a textbook from a major French publisher was deemed important
due to its popularity and relevance in France. It is expected that this textbook would provide
a fair representation on the state of the current English textbook market in France. The book
chosen was Shine Bright 3e, published by Nathan (2022). Nathan is a market leader in
textbook publication in France and has been operating since the nineteenth century. It was
chosen as a representative of the major textbook publishers in France of which there are
several main competitors. This edition was made for the final year of college in France, and
therefore the final year of obligatory schooling.
Secondly, it came to the researcher‟s attention that in France an organisation of
teachers has created a series of textbooks across different school subjects which are openly
accessible to all. This was regarded as important to analyse because this book could be
freer of the publisher biases prevalent in major publications, as discussed in part 2e of this
dissertation. The book chosen was Piece of Cake 3e (2017), from the collaborative website
lelivrescolaire.fr. The series was created by a large team of current French teachers who
38
test, edit and later use the textbook themselves. This textbook thus provides an indication
into what French teachers like and want from a textbook.
Initially, a third textbook to represent the international market was included in the
methodology; however, it was later omitted due to a lack of relevance to the research
question. In place, several similar small scale studies that analysed non-French textbooks
have been included in the discussion section, to provide the initial comparative component
this third textbook would have provided.
Selection of interview participants
Due to the researchers‟ lack of professional or personal connections in the field of
study in France, the selection of participants came from varied sources.
All participants selected for interview are current English language teachers, or have
been English language teachers for several years at secondary level. A mix of French and
non-French teachers was targeted, in order to provide a comparative component to the
research that would help the researcher to understand French perspectives better. This was
done by cross-referencing French and non-French teachers in the discussion and
interpretation of results sections. These were the only inclusion criteria for the participant
selection. No further details prior to the interviews were known by the researcher which
allowed for a valid selection of participants free of bias.
Three French participants were found on the Facebook page Mutualisons! – Profs
d’anglais – collège, a group with 8,500 members who post pedagogical ideas and materials,
and offer a support network for collège teachers around France. Two international
participants were found on the Facebook page English Teachers Around The World, a group
with 12,300 members with a similar purpose to the French group. Two Spanish teachers
were contacted through a previous colleague of the researcher, who wrote via email to
39
organise a virtual meeting, while two French teachers also came from a personal
connection, the researcher‟s critical friend of this dissertation.
Research methods
For the purpose of addressing the research questions, a mixed-methods approach
was utilised to best cover the aims of the research. The research itself was split into two
different phases; the textbook analysis phase and the teacher interview phase.
Phase 1 – Textbook Analysis
The textbook analysis phase applied a mixed-methods approach, featuring both
qualitative and quantitative aspects as part of a content-analysis design. When analysing
each textbook, the categorisation of tasks of having potential to acquire ICC was qualitative.
The researcher was responsible for identifying and categorising each task in the textbooks,
which ultimately carries a level of subjectivity due to the nature of dealing with words and
meaning in a qualitative sense. This is consistent with what Kripendorff (2013), cited by
Weninger (2018) describes as content analysis, which “typically involves identifying units for
analysis in a well-defined textual sample, coding those units based on a priori criteria
established by the researcher, then reducing the data by quantifying the results and finally
making inferences about the significance of the results'' (Weninger, p. 5). The a priori criteria
in this case was Byram‟s (1997, 2020) model of ICC. The argumentation for Byram‟s model
was made in section 2c of this dissertation, and while there are several disadvantages to
viewing ICC through the lens of a model, for the sake of content analysis in a textbook it
makes the most sense to use a model, which clearly defines types of competences. These
types of competences, known in Byram‟s model as „factors‟, would also provide further
information to the researcher. Meanwhile the “units'' to be analysed were textbook tasks. As
defined by Bakken and Andersonn-Bakken (2021), tasks are “a paratext that performs a
directive addressed to the student.” (p. 5). Not all textbook tasks were analysed. Listening
40
tasks were excluded due to the time constraints involved and lack of access to the audio.
Eight units of each textbook were analysed, as eight units was the total amount in the book
Piece of Cake 3e. This provided an analysis that was quantitatively and qualitatively
comparable.
Phase 2 – Semi-directed Interviews
To complement Phase 1, Phase 2 was designed primarily to assist with the second
research question “How does the presence of these tasks in textbooks affect the teaching of
English as a foreign language at middle schools in France?” Phase 2 revolved around semidirected interviews, which are a qualitative research method. The purpose was to improve
understanding of the participant‟s (teachers) experiences, understanding, opinions and
motivations when it comes to selecting material and using material in their English
classrooms to promote intercultural development.
The semi-directed interviews were conducted in accordance with the guidelines
stated by Sauvayre (2013). Semi-directed interviews are advantageous because of the
liberty they allow in responding to the interviewees' answers. Similarly, the interviewee can
feel more comfortable due to them being able to answer freely while being guided. The
interviewer generally has pre-written questions or themes related to topics explained in the
theoretical section of the dissertation. It‟s important to note that the questioning remains
flexible, that is to say without strict order, to create the sense of a natural discussion as best
as possible. The interview lasts approximately thirty minutes or once sufficient material can
be derived from the interview, but the conversation shouldn‟t begin to tire. The two
participants should find themselves in a quiet place, outside of the teacher‟s classroom when
possible. The dialogue is recorded whilst visual contact is also maintained to ensure the
interviewee doesn‟t have the impression of talking alone, which also allows the interviewer to
note non-verbal communication. These notes are to be taken directly after the interview. The
interview should begin with questions centred on the teacher‟s own experience to develop
41
their confidence in their responses early into the interview, before gradually turning towards
a decentred view of their profession and the targeted topics within it (Sauvayre, 2013).
Data Collection Methods
Phase 1
The data collection for Phase 1 required the quantification of textbooks tasks, to
analyse “to what extent” tasks which promote ICC were present in the three textbooks.
All student tasks were analysed and put into one of Byram‟s (1997, 2020) five factors
of ICC, if found to be applicable by the researcher. This means that even subdivided tasks
for example “Activity 4a, b, c, d” were treated as four separate tasks. Exceptions were made
with listening activities and other handouts or extra activities that were not readily available
in the student textbook. The remaining tasks, when applicable, were divided into the core
factors, however only one factor of ICC was attributed to each task in order to measure the
total of tasks that foster the development of at least one area of ICC. The factors are as
following:

Savoir refers to the knowledge of one‟s culture and other cultures that learners are
exposed to, and knowledge of the nature of intercultural interactions. Example task:
Read the text. Which genres of music are most popular in Colombia? Are they
different from the most popular music genres in France?

Savoir être refers to the attitudes one has towards other cultures and of their own
culture in relation to other cultures. Example task: How do you think the indigenous
Australians felt when they were finally given the right to vote? Write at least three
adjectives and then compare your answers with the person next to you.

Savoir comprendre refers to the skills of understanding and interpreting a text from
a foreign culture, and being able to relate it to one‟s own culture and experiences.
42
Example tasks: Which stereotypes are shown in this advertisement? Do the same
stereotypes exist in your country? Discuss with your partner.

Savoir apprendre/faire refers to the skills of discovering practices from other
cultures and the ability to interact in that environment. Example task: Imagine you are
a news reporter in Australia, which questions would you prepare to interview a
member of the Stolen Generation?

Savoir s’engager refers to having a critical cultural awareness and political
engagement, and being able to engage in another culture or language on the basis of
this awareness of cultural complexity. Example task: If the Stolen Generation
happened again, how do you think people in Australia would react? How would you
react if you were in that situation? Write down your response and then discuss with
your group.
Once all tasks were analysed and placed into the factors, the final data showed the
percentage of total analysed tasks in the textbook which would promote the development of
a student‟s ICC, and the extent to which factors of ICC were included in the textbook. This
phase particularly addresses the “to what extent” part of the research question, which
requires a quantification of data.
Phase 2
Once each interview was completed, the transcription was the first step towards the
collection of data. The interviews were transcribed first by using a website to automatically
transcript, and then the researcher listened to the audio while reading the transcript to
correct any mistakes. Certain unnecessary filler that didn‟t add meaning was removed,
making the transcription non-verbatim. As part of a thematic analysis, a less detailed
transcription is sufficient (Braun and Clarke, 2012), hence, this method was chosen.
The methodology to extract qualitative data from the interview transcriptions was a
thematic analysis. Braun and Clarke (2012) describe a thematic analysis as a method for
43
“systematically identifying, organising, and offering insight into patterns of meaning (themes)
across a dataset.” (p. 2). The patterns of meaning derived from the data should be related,
and important to the research topic being explored, hence the idea of themes. As this
research revolves around two primary themes, ICC and textbooks, a thematic analysis
approach was deemed appropriate. Moreover, Braun and Clarke (2012) highlight how a
thematic analysis is particularly beneficial for new researchers, due to its accessibility and
flexibility.
This research included a mix of inductive and deductive thematic analysis. In the
interview stage, the researcher had prepared a list of themes consistent for each participant,
which led to an inductive nature to the data analysis. However, new themes were also found
during the vertical analysis stage which meant both deductive and inductive elements were
utilised in the data collection.
The first stage of the analysis was a vertical analysis of each participant‟s transcript,
where notes were taken to encapsulate the major talking points and opinions of the
participant. Braun and Clarke (2012) describe this as the first phase (stage) in which
familiarising yourself with the data and making notes on each participant is vital. However,
note making remains observational and casual at this stage (see Appendix A).
The second stage is the coding phase, through which key quotes were identified in
each transcript to act as potential codes.
The third stage involved a horizontal analysis of the data by looking across all
participants to search for common themes. Codes which had been identified in the second
phase were placed into the horizontal analysis document and grouped within major themes
(See Appendix B). As defined by Braun and Clarke, a theme “captures something important
about the data in relation to the research question, and represents some level of patterned
response or meaning within the data set” (Braun and Clarke, 2012, p. 7) The major themes
44
in this case were textbooks, culture/ICC, administration/institutions, native-speakerism,
technology and general pedagogy. Each theme was deemed relevant in providing
information on the research question. The total number of codes was reduced by the
researcher when participants had several quotes under the same code.
The codes and themes were then reviewed to find a connection between them (stage
four) and named (stage five). These themes were chosen due to the interrelatedness of the
issues within these themes, yet always linked to the major research question which is
focused on ICC within textbooks. The number of themes was limited to seven to ensure
each theme could be sufficiently complex (Braun and Clarke, 2012), with enough data to
make possible conclusions. The result of this stage can be found in Appendix B. The sixth
and final stage is the report writing itself. The report writing was divided into the themes used
in the horizontal analysis in order to successfully compare individual codes, while also
including the vertical analysis of the two critical themes, ICC and textbooks.
3c. Reliability, Validity and Limitations
Both reliability and validity were important considerations made prior to research.
However, during the course of data collection several concerns did arise.
Internal validity was considered in terms of whether the results would be
representable and confirmable. The textbook analysis in Phase 1 had clear issues with
representability. Due to time constraints, it was impossible to analyse every textbook on the
French market. The textbooks were chosen based partially on their representability, the size
of the publisher of Shine Bright 3e (Nathan, 2022), and due to the collaborative nature of
Piece of Cake 3e (Lelivrescolaire.com) which was created by a diverse range of teachers
from across France. It must be stated that no conclusions on the French market can be
made by analysing just two textbooks.
45
Meanwhile, in Phase 2, it is also clear that the opinions and experiences of the
several teachers interviewed do not constitute a wide enough sample size to make definitive
conclusions based on their responses. However, as stated already, it is hoped that this
research can be used in a wider context and its purpose is not to make any definitive
conclusions in and of itself.
The confirmability of this study is derived from the criteria for analysis provided in this
methodology section, which allows others to confirm the results the researcher made. As
explained, there remains a subjective nature to the analysis of tasks in Phase 1, which is a
limitation to the potential confirmability of the study. This limitation similarly affects the
transferability of the results into a wider study.
Another limitation of the study design was the reliability of its data collection. In
Phase 1, the textbook analysis was carried out by one sole researcher. The results thus
reflect the researcher‟s bias, from previous experience in the fields researched, and also the
researcher‟s attitudes towards textbooks and other pedagogical issues which arise in the
Phase 2 interviews.
In order to increase the external validity of a study of this nature, both Phase 1 and
Phase 2 need to involve more participants. For example, a wider range of textbooks
analysed, a variety of researchers analysing the tasks and a greater number of teachers
interviewed. This would result in an enhanced context, a more extensive overview of the
problem and a decrease of potential bias.
Ethical Considerations
As Phase 1 was the analysis of text, the only ethical consideration to make was the
fair treatment of the authors of the textbooks. This study is not about determining the quality
of the textbooks, thus there are no comments which could be interpreted as the
mistreatment or disrespect of authors.
46
In the Phase 2 semi-directed interviews there were more ethical considerations due
to the direct contact with other individuals. This included:

Informed consent. Interviewees volunteered to an interview proposal, so they knew
and agreed to the purpose of the interaction. They also agreed to be recorded for the
purpose of a transcription.

Confidentiality. Interviewees were informed of their confidentiality and were treated
confidentially throughout the writing of the dissertation.

Respect for autonomy. Participants could devote as much time as they liked per
question of the interview and for the interview as a whole.

Transparency. If participants wanted to know more about the research, they were
told in an open and honest fashion.
47
4. Results and Discussion
4a. Introduction
The previous chapters have outlined the theoretical background and methodological
process. The following chapter will display the results found across Phase 1 and Phase 2 of
the research design. In Phase 1, two French textbooks were analysed for the extent to which
ICC tasks are present. In Phase 2 a series of semi-directed interviews were conducted with
teachers and former teachers from France and abroad.
4b. Findings
Phase 1
In Phase 1, two French textbooks were analysed to determine the extent to which
tasks that promote ICC development are present. The two textbooks analysed were Piece of
Cake 3e (Lelivrescolaire, 2017), and Shine Bright 3e (Nathan, 2022.
In total, eight units of each book were analysed, which resulted in 237 tasks (Piece of
Cake), and 364 tasks (Shine Bright), analysed respectively. Any task found to be
appropriately aligned with Byram‟s (2020) model of ICC was included in one of the key
factors. The total of ICC tasks found within the two textbooks is presented as a percentage
in the graph below.
48
1. Percentage of ICC tasks present.
Piece of Cake 3e had an ICC representation of 31.6%, while Shine Bright 3e had
26.9%. The tasks identified as promoting ICC were then grouped into the factors described
by Byram‟s (1997, 2020) model of ICC. Each task was only placed into one factor despite
tasks often being multi-faceted and able to enter more than one factor.
2. Distribution of ICC task factors, as percentage of total ICC tasks.
The major outlier as seen in the graph above is in the distribution of the “savoir” factor, in
which culture is usually presented as facts or information students are to “know”. Shine
49
Bright 3e by Nathan had 46% of its ICC tasks in this factor, while Piece of Cake 3e by
Lelivrescolaire.com had 19%. Piece of Cake 3e meanwhile has a higher representation of
ICC tasks in three different factors, savoir-comprendre, savoir-faire, and savoir-s‟engager.
Thus, when removing the savoir factor, the data looks different. In the table below, we see a
larger gap develop between the two textbooks.
3. Percentage of ICC tasks present - without "savoir" factor included.
Phase 2
Participants and vertical analysis
The following table is a vertical analysis of the nine participants, with an introduction
in the left hand column and then the major points derived from the interview on the right.
This information was derived from the notes made from each transcript (See Appendix A).
4. Vertical Analysis of Interview Transcripts
Participant Background
Talking Points
Participant 1 (Fr = French)
An experienced French teacher agrégée who currently
works in a lycée in Bordeaux, France. She has also taught
French as a foreign language in England and worked on
textbooks for a major French publishing company, which
adds to her diverse experience.
- Sees the value of textbooks but prefers to take
authentic materials from the English speaking press.
- Is a good example of the “French Syndrome” where
language is viewed only as relevant if spoken by native
speakers.
- Sees the value of intercultural communication (her final
50
tasks are all IC related), which was found to be
contradictory to many of her other statements.
- Talked about how she doesn’t believe students should
speak about their own culture in the classroom, and
should only react to Anglophone cultures.
- Explained the pressures within the educational system
and the way she is restricted in terms of time, but she can
teach practically anything due to the flexible nature of the
Programme National.
Participant 2 (Fr)
- Is wary of cultural content in textbooks being preachy
A French high school English teacher in Bordeaux, France, and self-righteous.
with over 20 years’ experience.
- For this reason he prefers more simple textbooks which
allow him to focus his students in a more neutral
direction.
- Is critical of the oversimplification of culture and history
in textbooks and feels that French teachers are neglected
by the Ministère de l'Éducation nationale.
Participant 3 (non-Fr)
A Burmese English teacher at an international school in
Myanmar. She also has several years’ experience at a
public school, which provided a strong position for
comparison.
- Very complimentary towards the international school
curriculum and its textbooks, especially in the way they
encourage students to think. Her students are really
interested in cultural and intercultural topics, especially
when discovering diversity from all kinds of countries.
- She also incorporates decentring activities where
students think critically about their own culture.
- She is critical of the government published textbooks in
her country, lamenting them for their out-dated and
traditional approach.
Participant 4 (non-Fr)
A Spanish teacher who works for the Comunidad de
Madrid, in Spain. She has over 15 years of experience
teaching languages and now works on a program funded
by the European Commission to increase digital
competences in classrooms in Madrid.
- Mentioned that ICC development is very difficult when
working with disadvantaged students due to language
level and behavioural issues.
- Said language assistants have been a very positive
addition to both language and intercultural development.
- She believes in the contribution of native speaking
teachers for higher levels but not lower levels.
- Said textbooks present limited cultural knowledge of
native speaking countries, and textbooks have to follow
Spanish curriculum.
- Said technology should be encouraged to develop
student’s language and ICC.
- Said ICC is difficult to practise when school is so exam
focused.
Participant 5 (Fr)
- Uses textbooks a lot and expressed and praised the
A French middle school teacher in a rural area of France, authenticity of materials found in textbooks nowadays.
and is a trained translator.
- Believes in a strict curriculum to assist and motivate
students, and believes this should be presented in a
textbook and that workbooks should be used.
51
- As a former translator, her pedagogy places a lot of
importance on grammar and she insists it’s necessary and
also the ‘French way’. Intercultural communication does
not seem to be a priority for her teaching.
- Believes in non-native speaker representation.
- Thinks cultural content in textbooks is often too
negative.
Participant 6 (non-Fr)
A Turkish English teacher in Turkiye for 15 years, across
all age groups. She now works in a selective school with a
more international approach. She has a master degree
and states she is still an active researcher in pedagogy.
- Uses textbooks but favours more innovative and
creative pedagogies.
- Is very much aware of intercultural topics and was
lamenting the lack of intercultural education in English
teaching and textbooks in Turkiye.
- Believes Turkish curriculum is too grammar and
vocabulary focused. Teachers choose that pedagogy
because they lack confidence in their own speaking skills,
or because it is easier to teach.
- Creates virtual exchange activities for ICC development
which her students love.
- Mentioned that young teachers get sent to rural areas
where they are met with a disdain for English learning.
Their confidence suffers and they revert to traditional
pedagogies.
Participant 7 (Fr)
A French REP collège teacher in Bordeaux, with 15 years’
experience. She teaches the option langues et cultures
européens and her collège is an Erasmus+ affiliated
collège.
- Takes elements from different textbooks available to her
but prefers to make her own lessons.
- Concentrates on the communicative method but feels
like real intercultural communication is reserved for the
LCM option class, which she says is fantastic.
- Said the chef d’etablissement holds considerable power
in opening towards Europe.
- Is very positive about E-Twinning and other projects that
force students to enter real communication.
- Has never considered international textbooks and
mentioned the problems of cost.
- Mentioned that French textbooks give teachers
confidence they are following the Programme National.
- Is critical of the number of students per class and says it
hinders their progression and ability to evaluate speaking
skills.
- Spoke about the restrictive nature the Ministère de
l'Éducation nationale has on French teaching, particularly
in regards to ICC.
- Is in favour of English as a lingua franca and an approach
somewhere in between the current pedagogy of the
action orientated approach and a more traditional one.
- Is very positive towards E-twinning.
- Is against native-speakerism, and the Anglophone
centric syllabus used in France.
- Her pedagogy is mostly centred on linguistic
Participant 8 (Fr)
A French former collège teacher with nearly twenty
years’ experience. She has worked extensively on the
collaborative
textbook
series
published
by
lelivrescolaire.com and is now the director of the collège
level publications within the organisation.
52
development but she believes in intercultural exchange
and ICC development.
Participant 9 (non-Fr)
- Didn’t have much knowledge about ICC based on her
A Spanish English language teacher currently working for short answers surrounding those questions.
the ministry of education in Madrid on a technology in - Stated that students find textbooks boring and have
classrooms project. She has taught several years of high been conditioned to dislike them.
school English in Spain.
- Believes technology needs to be used in class to increase
ICC, and mentioned E-Twinning as an example.
Horizontal thematic analysis
The data derived from the interviews was placed into the following themes as part of
a thematic analysis methodology: textbooks, culture/ICC, institutions/curriculum, nativespeakerism, technology and general pedagogy. The themes here are mentioned from a
bottom-up approach, beginning with the least „crucial‟ theme and finishing with the theme
most related to the research question. The codes are the commonalities found within each
theme, and required at least two participants to express the code to be included. See
Appendix B.
Table 5. Horizontal thematic analysis of interview transcripts
Theme
Codes
Quotes
General Pedagogy
(Selected due to the
influence of teacher’s
pedagogical approaches
on incorporation of ICC in
their lessons)
In favour of
communicative and/or
action orientated
approach to ELT.
(P1) stated her students “adorent faire des scénettes… et le mise
en situation”.
Communicative
approaches are limited.
(P4) “in terms of methodology, they *students from poorer
backgrounds] end up having a more traditional approach, like,
you know, filling the gaps exercises”.
Younger teenagers
participate in class more
than older teenagers.
Technology
Benefits of technology,
(Selected due to the including virtual
themes link to activities exchange, in the ELT
that promote ICC, or that classroom.
can be incorporated into
(P1) “c'est les enfants petits, surtout les 6e, 5e, ont une
appétence et sont très, très... contents de participer en cours”.
(P4) “Participating in E-Twinning projects can be very helpful to
create a rapport with a different school, with a different country,
and in terms of intercultural communication”
(P7) “Oui, ça, ils sont intéressés [virtual exchange]. Donc, ça les
intéresse de voir qu'on peut utiliser cette langue commune”.
53
textbooks)
Limitations of virtual
exchange.
Positive comments on
other technology use.
Native-speakerism
Anti-native-speakerism
(Selected due to this sentiment.
ideology’s influence on
textbooks and ICC in ELT)
Institutions / curriculum
(Selected due to its
influence on textbooks
and pedagogy in ELT)
(P9) “I think it [e-twinning] is not that easy to access. Like it's not
something everybody knows about”.
(P8) “J'ai été ambassadrice e-twinning. Et là, on utilisait
effectivement l'anglais…Et souvent, mon inspecteur me la
reprochait, par exemple. « qu'est-ce que ça a apporté à vos
élèves »” ?
(P4) “they *students+ have these influencers…YouTubers and
TikTokers from all over the world. So, I guess that can widen the
perception…and I think teachers should kind of exploit
that…educate students as to what kind of contents are worth
it…critical thinking, identifying sources, this kind of stuff”.
(P7) “Je trouve ça dommage de temps en temps qu'on se prive de
certains thèmes parce que ça n'est pas anglophone”
(P5) “Donc, oui, Amsterdam, je l'ai fait toute seule… Si mon
inspectrice regarde ça, c'est pas...”
Non-French teachers in
favour of nonAnglophone
representation.
(P4) “maybe because the world is opening up so much, we start
to develop that awareness that… I mean, I love the idea that
English is not owned by native speakers anymore.”
Institutional restriction
on non-Anglophone
representation.
(P1) “Si on est inspecté et qu'on fait ça [non-anglophone], ça va
nous être reproché”.
(P5) “Mais notre programme, c'est présenter (18:04) la culture
anglophone”.
French teachers
expressing satisfaction
with the liberty they are
afforded, but with a
contradiction.
(P1) “Quand quelque chose nous intéresse, il y a toujours un axe
ou une thématique qui permet de raccrocher.” “c'est très
rigide…il y a un cadre de fonctionnement qui est le garant de
l'éducation nationale qui lui est très rigide”.
(P2) “I'm pretty free to do what I like, which is very positive…”,
“we are individuals in a system, but we are isolated.” “I would say
that the limitations are the final exam…because it's a markoriented institution”.
(P1) “Si on est inspecté et qu'on fait ça *non-anglophone], ça va
nous être reproché”, “On est obligé d'ancrer la culture dans le
pays, dans un pays anglophone et dans le monde anglo-saxon”
(P5) “notre Programme, c'est présenter la culture anglophone”.
Restrictions on cultural
representations in
French classrooms.
Individuals in
administration can
affect change.
(P7) “C'est grâce au chef d'établissement. Et ces options *LCM+,
en fait, le chef d'établissement, il doit les financer”.
54
Culture/ICC
Teachers promoting ICC.
(A core theme in the
research question)
Students enjoy IC.
Confusion between
cultural and intercultural
education.
Difficult classroom
environments limit ICC
education.
Lack of teacher training.
/ lack of time to
implement ICC
education.
Textbooks
Individual response on
(A core theme in the use and / or opinion
research question)
about textbooks.
Positive opinions on
textbooks.
(P1) “Donc, on a regardé la vidéo, on a travaillé dessus et on a
écrit une lettre de bon rétablissement Kate. Et ils adorent ce
genre de choses.”
(P3) “we always have to share with [the students] the different
cultures, the diversity, the diversities of the cultures, and students
are really, really interested in it.”
(P3) “we always have to share with [the students] the different
cultures, the diversity, the diversities of the cultures. And students
are really, really interested in it”.
(P1) “ils [the students] sortait d'une séquence sur l'Australie qui
était super intéressante….c'est-à-dire qu'il y avait des faits tout à
fait basiques”.
(P5) “Mais notre Programme, c'est présenter la culture
Anglophone”.
(P7) “Alors ça [IC], on essaie de leur donner des éléments
culturels”.
(P4) “So in terms of methodology, they [students from poorer
backgrounds] end up having a more traditional approach, you
know, filling the gaps exercises…*teaching students with+
behavioural problems, it's kind of survival mode”.
(P6) “that's why new teachers with lots of new ideas and lots of
enthusiasm… it (difficult classrooms) kills it, you know.”
(P8) “Mais on ne nous a pas appris à le (ICC) faire. Donc ça reste
très superficiel pour l'instant et je dirais même artificiel, la façon
dont on le fait en classe.”
(P2) “I would say that the limitations are the final exam, because
it's a mark-oriented institution.”
(P1) “J'utilise peu de support de manuels scolaires.”
(P3) “I like every, any kind of materials that can make my
students get more comprehensive skills.”
(P4) “So there's this pressure, like I have to fill in the workbook
even if students are not so sure about what they're doing.”
(P5) “Je suis beaucoup les manuels scolaires.”
(P6) “We followed the learning outcomes in that program
*textbook+.”
(P7) “Je pioche dans plusieurs manuels et je préfère faire mes
propres séquences, mais les manuels m'aident beaucoup pour
m'inspirer, par exemple, ou pour trouver des ressources
pédagogiques.”
(P9) “I think they're *textbooks+ really in general, they're very
repetitive. We don't have time to really work on making some
interesting materials…Totally. 100%. [I use textbooks a lot
because of this+”.
(P1) “Pour le collège…j'utilise beaucoup plus le manuel parce que
les enfants ont besoin, et leurs familles aussi”.
(P7) “Les manuels m'aident beaucoup pour m'inspirer, par
exemple, ou pour trouver des ressources pédagogiques”.
55
Negative opinions or (P9) “So I think they're *textbooks+ really in general, they're very
limitations on textbooks. repetitive”.
(P2) “They *textbooks+ tell you what is right and what is wrong all
the time… [they are] self-righteousness”.
French teachers
(P2) “and my colleagues right now, I think that none of them use
(participant’s
textbooks, and they do their own things.”
colleagues) are antitextbooks.
Praise for International (P3) “the good thing is we are just taking the reference from the
textbooks by non-French books that we could get from the international courses…from
teachers.
Cambridge and also from Oxford.”
(P6) “Well, more engaging topics, maybe. In the Oxford or
Cambridge books, you can find many new things, you know,
modern things that appeal to our teenage students.”
Criticism on
(P3) “textbooks…made by the government…not very updated, not
Government issued, or
very modernized”.
national curriculum
(P4) “textbooks have things that are limited to what is written in
derived textbooks.
the regulations”.
Individuals response: ICC (P1) “Et il est obligatoire d'ancrer (les manuels scolaires chez
in relation to textbooks
Hatier) dans la culture *anglophone+.”
(P2) “They would often be very adapted to the collège, especially
celebrations, Christmas, Thanksgiving. That's the things younger
students would expect.”
(P3) “in the government text, mostly they never focus on the
intercultural things… They just focus on the grammar patterns
and also the vocabularies, new vocabularies…not how to apply
the words… I like every, any kind of materials that can make my
students get more comprehensive skills.”
(P4) “So I think also textbooks have to incorporate that kind of
information (IC) because it's stated by law *in Spain+…but it can
be maybe that this text says, wow, in China they do this, they
have the, in Japan they have the tea ceremony, more than actual
impact in the language learning process.”
(P5) “Je crois que c'est (IC) dans les textes, réagir dans le sens du
sujet qu'on aborde…ça devient un peu très French de parler de
tous les problèmes sociaux et ensuite qu'on puisse l'aborder, on a
quelque chose en commun. Donc, moi, je trouve que c'est des
choses importantes culturelles qu'on peut toujours aborder [dans
des manuels] sur un point de vue, sur l'aspect positif, pas
seulement l'aspect négatif.”
(P6) “We prepared some textbooks and we used lots of *IC+ skills
activities in that book, but teachers, I believe, find it easier to
teach grammar and vocabulary instead of teaching [those] skills
because most of the teachers are still not good at speaking, not
good at listening English, you know, and teaching grammar in the
L1, of course, is easier than that.”
(P8) “On *textbook authors+ peut faire ce qu'on veut en termes de
contenu, enfin de thème, je dirais, plus que de contenu.”
“parfois, on est coincé sur des thèmes qu'on aimerait bien
aborder. Mais comme ils ne sont pas attachés particulièrement à
56
un pays anglophone, on n'y a pas droit.”
(P9) “Not much *ICC in textbooks+. No, maybe like a hint, some
here and there. But yeah, it's not something that I see…maybe
there's like the interracial picture, things like that. They maybe
show… some festivity that's typical from some countries. That's
about it.”
General Pedagogy
When talking about pedagogy, both French and non-French teachers had a lot of
positive things to say regarding the communicative and action-oriented approach to
language teaching. Another commonality found was an agreement that young teenagers are
highly participative in class.
Technology
Seven out of the nine participants mentioned technology positively in the
conversations, with particularly virtual exchange being highly regarded. Two limitations to
virtual exchange were raised. Other technology use was also commented on positively by
three different participants.
Native-speakerism
Four out of five French participants expressed anti native-speakerism sentiment, and
the issue was often raised in conversations surrounding ICC in ELT. Those positive
sentiments were sometimes at the expense of what their education system asks of them.
One French teacher (P1) was very forthcoming about her agreement with native-speaker
models of teaching and learning.
The three non-French teachers all had a positive opinion on using native and nonnative speaking countries or speakers in class.
57
Administration/Institutions
Four out of five French teachers expressed satisfaction with the liberty they have in
their teaching, but also often had a statement which contradicted that notion. Further
limitations on French teachers centred around the French administration and its nativespeaker model.
Cultural and ICC related issues
The participants spoke very positively about ICC, although their understanding of the
term itself was rather limited, and several limitations were raised. Three participants, P1, P3
and P8 specifically mentioned how their students enjoy that type of learning.
Meanwhile, participants 4, 6, 7 and 8 all mentioned students receiving ICC
development positively when talking about virtual exchange (as aforementioned in the
technology paragraph). The subject was never explored with P2, while P5 spoke about the
need for ICC development, without mentioning students enjoying it.
Four out of nine participants talked about cultural learning rather than intercultural
learning.
In terms of limitations on ICC development, a variety of issues arose. Firstly, three
participants (P4, 5, and 6) alluded to difficult classroom environments making ICC learning a
difficult prospect. Secondly, P8 mentioned a lack of teacher training. Thirdly, two teachers
described how the focus on evaluation can limit their pedagogical range because they have
less time to devote to things students won‟t be tested on.
58
Textbooks
Four out of the five French participants made comments about other French teachers
having an “anti-textbook” stance. These types of comments were not present amongst the
four non-French participants.
Despite this, five out of nine participants made positive comments about the utility of
textbooks, such as: textbooks are suitable for young teenagers (P1, P2 , P3), textbooks
provide safety in following the curriculum (P1, P5, P7) and textbooks inspire teachers to
produce lesson plans (P2, P7).
Seven out of nine teachers made negative comments towards textbooks such as
cost is a limiting factor (P1, P6 and P7), textbooks are repetitive (P2, P4, P9) and textbooks
are overly pessimistic in the content they offer (especially cultural content) (P2, P5).
Three out of four non-French teachers generally spoke positively about the
internationally published textbooks they use (P3, P6, P9).
On the contrary, national curriculum‟s effect on textbooks was commonly spoken
about in a more negative light. Six of the nine participants (P1, P2, P3, P4, P5 and P8) all
mentioned the fact that the nationally imposed curriculum limits textbooks in different ways.
Finally, when discussing ICC directly in relation to textbooks, each participant is
quoted in the table above due to this being the crux of the research question.
French and non-French teachers
Whilst not an explicitly studied theme in the horizontal thematic analysis, an insight
into the differences between French and non-French teachers was investigated. Overall, no
major differences between French and non-French were found, except for the use of
internationally published textbooks. Teachers in Turkiye, Myanmar and Spain all use British
publishing company textbooks and the comments surrounding them were positive. On the
59
contrary, French teachers spoke both positively and negatively about their textbooks. For the
other themes analysed, no discernable differences were found. The sample size of
participants was a limiting factor. While strong opinions were shown by some French
teachers that were not shared by any non-French teacher, these views weren‟t supported by
other French teachers in the study.
4c. Interpretation and relation to existing
literature
Overview
In this section, the research question “to what extent are tasks which promote ICC
present in French collège textbooks, and how do they influence English teaching?” will be
discussed by interpreting the results outlined in the previous section, and linked to the
literature from the theoretical section when possible. Both Phase 1 and Phase 2 results are
discussed, and the interrelation of the two phases provide an overview of the findings.
Summary of findings
In Phase 1, the two analysed textbooks revealed the extent to which tasks which
promote ICC were present. Piece of Cake 3e had a 31.64% ICC task representation while
Shine Bright 3e had 26.9%. However, a big difference between the two textbooks was found
in the ICC factor 'savoir‟, which took up 46% of ICC tasks in Shine Bright 3e and 19% of
tasks in Piece of Cake 3e. Piece of Cake 3e meanwhile saw a higher representation of at
least 7% across the savoir-comprendre, savoir-faire and savoir-s‟engager factors.
In Phase 2, a wide variety of responses came from nine participants from a diverse
range of English teaching backgrounds. Firstly, teachers‟ perspectives on their own
pedagogy tended to be in favour of an approach which fosters ICC development and
intercultural content in the ELT classroom. Secondly, technology was viewed positively, and
60
is and should be used for promoting ICC development; however, it isn‟t accessible to all.
Thirdly, teachers are mostly in favour of a wider representation of cultures in the ELT
classroom, one that is not limited to Anglophone countries. The French Ministère de
l'Éducation in particular is responsible for native-speakerism and the native-speaking model
of language learning in France, which is contrary to teacher‟s personal beliefs in most cases
greatly influences French textbooks. Fourthly, those same institutions are able to affect
change, and also afford teachers liberties they are generally happy with. Overall, discourse
around ICC was largely positive, however limitations were raised and the term was not
always understood by teachers.
As for textbooks, a diverse discourse provided the researcher with a degree of
nuance to discuss later in this chapter; however, it is institutional and administrative bodies
that govern the control over textbooks in most instances and therefore affect ICC
development more than textbooks or teachers themselves. Again, this was particularly
notable in French participant responses. Non-French teachers who use international ELT
textbooks believe they are better than curriculum derived, or government published
textbooks.
Interpretation of findings
Extent of ICC tasks and their influence on ELT
Phase 1 revealed the extent to which ICC tasks are present in the two French
textbooks. Piece of Cake 3e had a 31.64% representation of tasks which can promote ICC
development and Shine Bright 3e had 26.9%. When compared to the other similar small
scale studies, including Äijälä (2009), Bukten Haugen (2023), Kian (2016) and Ostrem
(2021), these scores compare particularly high. Bukten Haugen reported figures of 26% and
13% ICC task representation for two Norwegian ELT high school textbooks, Ostrem 30%,
28% and 19% across three Norwegian middle school ELT textbooks, Äijälä 15% and 9% in
61
two Finnish high school ELT textbooks, and Kian 3-10% across seven ELT international
textbooks used in Iran.
French textbooks have a high amount of intercultural content. However, as seen in
the results section, those figures drop significantly, especially for Shine Bright 2e, when
removing the “savoir” ICC factor.
The high percentage of ICC tasks falling into the “savoir” factor is emblematic of the
way the French education system sees cultural, and by proxy also intercultural education in
ELT. This was particularly evident in the Shine Bright 3e textbook, published by a major
French publishing house whose material has been dictated by the Programmes of the
French Ministère de l'Éducation for a great number of years, where “savoir” accounted for
46% of ICC tasks. “Savoir” as an ICC factor is described by Byram (2020) in two broad
categories
Knowledge about one‟s own social groups and their cultures and similar knowledge
of the interlocutor‟s social groups and cultures; and knowledge of the processes of
interaction at individual and societal levels (Byram, 2020, p. 46).
In both textbooks, all tasks placed into the “savoir” factor are from the second part of
Byram‟s first broad category “knowledge about… the interlocutor‟s social groups and
cultures.” When isolated, these types of activities tend to present culture as a list of facts to
learn about the „other‟. Because the content is not presented as a two-way exchange, it can
be considered to not be promoting intercultural development. As Gray 2023 explains
“language learning…can no longer only focus on linguistic form accompanied by
encyclopaedic cultural facts‖ (p. 29) and that students “cannot learn culture from books as a
list of more or less stereotypical facts”. This is because when culture is presented as a list of
“facts”, it actually stunts the ICC development, according to De Bartolo and Mancuso (2021),
as the content is not learnt in a critical enough way. Criticality in intercultural language
62
learning is defined by self-reflexivity and a transformational agenda, according to Liddicoat
(2019). From both the textbook analysis in Phase 1, it appears criticality is missing within
textbooks.
From the discussions with French teachers, it became clear why the representation
of the “savoir” factor of ICC was so high in the Shine Bright 3e textbook. “Mais notre
Programme, c'est présenter la culture Anglophone” (Participant 5), “On [les éditeurs]
respecte le Programme” (Participant 1). The Programme National dictates what publishers
can put in their textbooks, which was reinforced by a textbook editor (Participant 8) who said
“on est en train d'en rédiger un autre [manuel], mais comme les programmes risquent de
changer, on est en attente. Il y a des choses de prêtes et on attend que le ministère publie
les nouveaux programmes pour pouvoir adapter ce qu'on a préparé.”
However, the Phase 2 interviews showed that French teachers really value
intercultural exchange, hence there is a disconnect between the curriculum defined
textbooks which tend to present culture as facts to be learnt, and the will of French teachers
for more intercultural tasks. Comments on the values of communication, real language use
and using virtual exchange to talk to students in different countries were common comments
that were shared by the teachers interviewed. For example, “[students] adorent faire des
scénettes… et le mise en situation”, “En fait, mon idée, c'est qu'ils fassent de l'anglais pour
communiquer”, “Participating in E-Twinning projects can be very helpful to create a rapport
with a different school, with a different country, and in terms of intercultural communication”,
while another participant added “Oui, ça, ils sont intéressés [virtual exchange]… ça les
intéresse de voir qu'on peut utiliser cette langue commune”. The projects they talked about
didn‟t come from the textbooks they use, but rather from their own initiative, again
highlighting the disconnect between the curriculum led textbooks and teaching methods
used by teachers.
63
This disconnect can also be seen with the Phase 1 textbook analysis. Piece of Cake
was created by a large team of teachers from across France. Participant 8, the current
director of the series at collège level stated “j'ai une équipe de 150 à 200 personnes qui
travaillent avec moi. Ce n'est pas le cas chez les autres éditeurs puisqu'ils ont des équipes
qui sont beaucoup plus petites. Moi, j'ai à peu près 25 auteurs qui rédigent le manuel.” Thus
more representative of French teachers, this book had higher rates of ICC tasks represented
by a figure of over 10%, compared to the Shine Bright textbook, indicating a stronger
preference for ICC tasks by French teachers. Piece of Cake also had a higher rate of non
“savoir” factor ICC tasks, again illustrating the difference of vision towards ELT between
French teachers and government.
Influence of the institution
As presented in the theoretical section, the benefits to incorporating intercultural
elements into an ELT course are numerous, and presenting culture alone is not enough. The
utility of communication to address cultural differences and develop our ability to interact with
people from different linguistic and cultural backgrounds cannot be ignored. As De Bartolo
and Mancuso (2021) discuss, “the idea that different cultural patterns are displayed, shared
and negotiated through the use of English needs to be reflected in English textbooks,
embedded in the way cultural content is offered to language learners.” (p. 415) Note
“through the use of English”, is why ignoring non-native speakers in textbooks makes no
sense, as they make up a higher total of English speakers than natives, a view shared by
Derivry (2016). Students are more likely to use English with non-natives than natives. This
will be returned to in a later paragraph.
Both the Phase 1 and Phase 2 findings indicate that interculturality is mismanaged in
textbooks. French teachers see value in content that develops IC, and while French
textbooks have a high percentage of cultural content, the extent to which it is used in an
intercultural way is largely left to the teachers. It was made evident during Phase 2 that while
64
teachers and textbooks have a role to play in ICC development, the biggest factor is the
national education body, which was a consistent theme discussed by all French participants.
Not only does the institution heavily influence textbooks “un éditeur ne prendra jamais le
risque de faire un manuel qui n'est pas conforme au programme, parce qu'il ne le vendra
pas.”, they also influence teachers pedagogies “si on est inspecté et qu'on fait ça [une
activité avec non-anglophones], ça va nous être reproché”, “on est obligé d'ancrer la culture
dans le pays, dans un pays anglophone et dans le monde anglo-saxon.” There is a fear
amongst French teachers to not adhere to the Ministère de l'Éducation‟s vision of English
language learning.
The institution dictates the ICC development in ELT in French schools, and therefore
also has the power to increase it, as exemplified by the example of Participant 7, who was
able to convince her “chef d'établissement‖ to allow her collège to become an Erasmus+
affiliated school and incorporate much more intercultural development into her teaching
through excursions, virtual exchange and an elective class based on understanding
European cultures and languages, taught in English. “C'est grâce au chef d'établissement, et
ces options [LCE], en fait, le chef d'établissement, il doit les financer.”
France is by no means the only country to have disconnect between educators and
the educational system they work in. Participants from Phase 2 who worked in Spain,
Myanmar and Turkiye were also all critical of the government published, or curriculum led
textbooks, when compared to the international textbooks those teachers use now. However,
in France, this is an unlikely option considering the anxiety French teachers have for
breaking the Programme National and for their inspectors, while also considering the factor
of cost. French schools are obliged to provide free textbooks to students and would not issue
an international textbook that doesn‟t follow the Programme National in a strict way.
65
Native-speakerism and a nationalist epistome of language
education (The French Syndrome)
The French Ministère de l'Éducation‟s insistence on the English language being a
vector of culture, but only of Anglophone culture, limits the ICC development in ELT
classrooms in several ways.
According to Katznelson et al. 2023, a defining feature of a national epistome is the
hegemonic ideology of one state, one nation and one language. It appears this ideology has
been slightly updated to being one of „one language, one culture, within several states‟ in the
contemporary French government‟s discourse of the English language. Indeed, this ideology
is heavily tied to that of native-speakerism which, as Derivry-Plard (2006) states, the
patterns of perception of “native” versus “non-native” persist within language teaching
particularly because they are socially and historically linked to the very constitution of the
field. Perhaps the French insistence on native-speakers acting as the models of Anglophone
language and culture, is due to the foundations of formal language learning in Europe in
which French was the dominant language, during a period in which the French state was
nationalising itself through its own official language, banning regional languages in favour of
the powerful Parisien dialect (Derivry, 2006).
The native speaker model, and native-speakerism itself are both cornerstones of ELT
in France today, as both Phase 1 and Phase 2 proved, and as the CNESCO (2019) report
calls the “French Syndrome”. In Phase 1, it became clear that only “Anglophone” cultures
are represented in French textbooks, which was confirmed in Phase 2 by French teachers.
The influence of this messaging across the textbooks can be seen through the
opinions of Participant 1, who said
Mais il faut que ce soit en plus que ça s'appuie sur de vraies références culturelles.
Par exemple la Saint Patrick. Le but ce n’est pas que chacun parle de son échange
66
de son expérience. C'est que on donne l'expérience anglo-saxonne après ils
réagissent.
Si on est inspecté et qu'on fait ça [non-anglophone], ça va nous être reproché. On
est obligé d'ancrer la culture dans le pays, dans un pays anglophone et dans le
monde anglo-saxon.
[ICC est] une vision à mon sens qui est trop utilitaire de la langue…le problème de
l'interculturalité, finalement ça peut pas trop coller dans un cursus…que ça peut pas
marcher avec l'idée d'une classe française…
This participant‟s views on ICC in ELT are representative of the Ministère de
l'Éducation’s national epistome towards language learning.
To dissect this discourse, let‟s firstly consider, what is Anglophone culture? In the
theoretical section, it was established that even the idea of national cultures is problematic
when trying to develop ICC. Cultures are complex, multi-faceted and ever changing
(Kramsch, 1998), so by anchoring the cultural educational component (l'ancrage culturel), on
all Anglophone speaking nations is bizarre. Anglophone countries are made up of more than
just native speakers. Zhang, Tsung and Qi (2023), report that nearly a quarter of Australians
don‟t speak English at home, a figure similar in the United States. Grouping Australians,
Americans, South-Africans and others all as native-speakers, as vectors of some kind of
common “Anglophone” culture as is done in ELT education in France is misleading.
According to Byram (2020), there are two fundamental criticisms of positioning the
language as one owned by native-speakers and their culture. Firstly, it provides students an
unrealistic and unattainable goal linguistically, while ignoring the differences under which
natives and non-natives learn and acquire language. The second criticism is that even if it
were possible to become a native-speaker, it suggests abandonment of the initial native
language as a native-speaker model implies „perfect‟ language use, one without influence of
67
other languages. It rejects a multilingual and by proxy multicultural understanding of the
world and our interconnectedness. It‟s therefore a poor model for both linguistic and ICC
development.
Moreover, as already mentioned, non-native English speakers easily outnumber
native speakers. By limiting English education to a view of native speakers the French
government is limiting its students to the wide variety of people they could eventually
encounter when speaking English, while reinforcing the power dynamics of native-speakers
over non-native speakers (Derivry, 2016), harming the ability for French students to succeed
in an increasingly international world. Additionally, it completely contradicts the curriculum
itself, which is based on the CEFR, a document created by the European Commission with
the purpose of developing European‟s linguistic and intercultural competences between
each other (Council of Europe, 2020). The document recognises multilingualism, and
presents multilingualism as “an uneven and changing competence, in which the
user/learner‟s resources in one language or variety may be very different in nature from their
resources in another”. This is not the message a native-speaker model of language learning
conveys, which is instead a monolingual society (Cook, 1999). The Framework
simultaneously states that “most of the references to multilingualism in the CEFR are to
multilingual and multicultural competence… because the two aspects usually go hand-inhand.” Therefore, a native-speaker model also conveys a monocultural society.
The Programme National cycle 4 (Ministère de l'Éducation, 2020), as discussed at
length in the theoretical section, also highly values intercultural communication “la relation
interculturelle sont, en articulation étroite avec les activités langagières, des visées majeures
du cycle (p. 39)”. The document makes many references to ICC, describing aims such as
“se décentrer pour apprendre sur soi et les autres” (p. 44). So why is this not reflected in
ELT classrooms around France or in middle school textbooks?
68
It seems the French government‟s insistence on the native-speaker model of
language learning, and viewing culture as apart and separate from its own, is indicative of
the country‟s relationship with its own language. As participant 8 (an editor at
lelivrescolaire.fr) said “Je pense qu'on a un attachement à la langue française, au départ, et
donc, nos inspecteurs sont très très bornés là-dessus, ils sont têtus comme ce n’est pas
possibles.” This may stem from the historical beginnings of language learning in Europe,
where French was the dominant language and taught from a one nation, one language
perspective. It results in a contradiction in the way the aims of English learning are
presented in the French curriculum, a curriculum derived from the contemporary European
context and the CEFR, and then the way it is administered in classrooms due to textbook
content and demands by teacher‟s superiors which tell a different story.
Language and culture are inextricably linked through the lens of identity (Kramsch,
1998), and the French language is extremely embedded in the French identity as its sole
language. It seems the French government is interested in protecting that through the way it
presents English in a similar manner. This ultimately has a negative impact on both linguistic
and ICC development for French collège students.
69
5. Conclusion
By analysing French collège English textbooks, and conducting semi-directed
interviews with nine participants, this dissertation has shown to what extent tasks which
promote intercultural communicative competence are present in French collège English
textbooks, and how they influence English language teaching at that level in French
schools.
Whilst the analysis of textbooks did provide the researcher with the quantitative data
they required, during the interview phase the interpretation of the research question
expanded and included themes outside of the initial research question, most notably the
influence of the institution. Ultimately, the choice of methodology resulted in a much greater
understanding of the role of textbooks in promoting ICC development in a broader
educational context, even if the initial research question was only a small picture of the
influences at play.
In summary, according to the data collected in this study, French collège textbooks
largely treat the cultural and intercultural notions stated in the French curriculum and CEFR
(Common European Framework for Languages) as a presentation of Anglophone culture
and history. This severely impacts ICC development. Therefore, despite a high percentage
of tasks that foster ICC compared to similar studies in different countries, the overall
potential to develop student‟s ICC through these tasks is limited. Firstly, the studied
textbooks mostly present culture as facts and knowledge to obtain rather than something
students can participate in. This was shown by the ICC factor “savoir” being too highly
represented in the overall scope of ICC tasks in the French textbooks. Secondly, by
presenting only Anglophones in textbooks, it presents a monolingual society, ignores all nonnative English speakers (which easily outnumber native speakers), and impacts French
70
student‟s imagined identity, feelings of self-efficacy, and ultimately decreases their abilities to
develop their linguistic and intercultural communication skills.
French teachers do incorporate their own pedagogies and materials that foster ICC in
different ways, and tend to be at odds with what the French Ministère de l'Éducation is
envisioning when it comes to English language education. This was shown through the
semi-directed interviews with teachers, and also the teacher-led collaborative textbook which
showed greater awareness for ICC development, despite its content still being restricted by
the French Ministère de l'Éducation.
The conclusions made based on the interpretations are not without limitations. It
must be remembered that this dissertation remains a very small study, with only two
textbooks analysed and nine participants interviewed (four of whom were not French). In
hindsight, a greater number of French participants could have been included. The nonFrench participants, whilst not contributing a great deal to the final results and conclusions
made, did provide the researcher with an interesting and valuable insight into different
education systems, which in turn helped place the French educational system into greater
context and allowed the researcher to reach conclusions more easily. The small nature of
this research means that the confirmability and comparability of the study is limited.
However, it is hoped that this dissertation can provide future researchers with an additional
insight into the role of ICC in French language education.
5a. Practical Implications and
Recommendations
As stated above, the insistence of native-speaker models of language learning has a
negative impact on both students' language skills and their intercultural competences.
As Cook (1999), and Byram (1997, 2020) explain, if language learners are only
exposed to native-speakers in their learning, it will have severe impacts on their feelings of
71
self-efficacy. Instead of seeing themselves as failed native-speakers, if students learn
through an L2 (second language) model of language learning they will begin to see
themselves as part of a community in which they can participate, interact and ultimately add
to the cultures in which the native-speakers also live and participate in. This plays into the
role of the imagined-identity as described in the theoretical section (Norton, 2013), which is
vital for a student‟s motivations when learning a language.
Therefore, it is recommended that the Ministère de l'Éducation move away from a
native-speaker model, especially in regard to the cultural aims it is trying to achieve in its
language classrooms. Allowing any culture to be represented in textbooks, and allowing
discussions and other materials initiated by teachers on other cultures is an important step to
developing French student‟s ICC during middle school. Particular attention should be made
to incorporating textbook tasks which aim to have students decentre, and reflect critically on
intercultural communication and their role and potential within it (Liddicoat & Scarino, 2013).
This would be helped by textbooks also representing people and society as multilingual,
where the L2 speaker is on an equal footing and is fully able to participate, and engage in
other cultures in a positive manner.
Considering the importance of textbooks as acting as an authority, a pedagogical
map, a resource, and a trainer (Cortazzi and Jin, 1999, cited by De Bartolo and Mancuso,
2021), textbooks in particular do play an important role. Meanwhile, increasing the use of
integrated technology into textbooks seems to be well perceived by teachers, and should be
used to help develop ICC. For example, links to authentic materials, and pedagogical
sequences that prepare students for intercultural virtual exchange could be written into future
textbooks. Students and teachers alike value real communication and are interested in
engaging with other people in English. It is of the researcher‟s opinion that this should be
prioritised within ELT education at collège level in France, despite the difficulties and
limitations that arise. However, if language education in France is to progress within the age
72
of the European Union, in which the freedom of movement across linguistic and cultural
boundaries is possible, yet challenged, intercultural relations should be developed and
fostered as positively as possible.
Summary
In summary, it is hoped this dissertation provides a small addition to the research into
the role of ICC in ELT in France. This study showed the role of textbooks in promoting ICC in
ELT at middle school level in France, and has shown that the manner in which culture and
intercultural competences are integrated into textbooks, and the overall landscape of English
language education in the country is far from optimal. A native-speaker model of language
teaching limits both linguistic and intercultural development of students, and it is therefore
recommended that the French education systems turns toward an English as a lingua franca
model to help prepare its students integrate more easily into the global community.
73
Bibliography
Académie de Bordeaux. (2022). ANALYSE DES RESULTATS ACADEMIQUES EV@LANG.
https://ent2d.ac-bordeaux.fr/disciplines/anglais/wpcontent/uploads/sites/8/2022/09/ANALYSE-DES-RESULTATS-ACADEMIQUESEV@LANG.pdf
Ahangari, S., & Zamanian, J. (2014). Intercultural Communicative Competence in Foreign
Language Classroom. International Journal of Academic Research in Business and Social
Sciences, 4. https://doi.org/10.6007/IJARBSS/v4-i11/1265
Äijälä, H. (n.d.). Acquiring Intercultural Competence from Coursebooks: Analysis of Learning
Tasks in the Finnish Upper Secondary School Coursebook Series In Touch.
Álvarez Valencia, J. A., & Michelson, K. (2023). A design perspective on intercultural
communication in second/foreign language education. 16(4), 399–418.
Bakken, J., & Andersson-Bakken, E. (2021). The textbook task as a genre. Journal of Curriculum
Studies, 53(6), 729–748. https://doi.org/10.1080/00220272.2021.1929499
Bojanić, B., & Topalov, J. (2016). Textbooks in the EFL classroom: Defining, assessing and
analyzing. Zbornik Radova Filozofskog Fakulteta u Pristini, 137–153.
https://doi.org/10.5937/ZRFFP46-12094
Boroditsky, L. (2018). How language shapes the way we think. Open Educational Resources
Collection. https://irl.umsl.edu/oer/13
Braun, V., & Clarke, V. (2012). Thematic analysis. (pp. 57–71).
Bukten Haugen, C. (2023). Intercultural Competence in EFL Textbooks. Norwegian University of
Science and Technology.
Byram, M. (1997). Teaching and assessing intercultural communicative competence. Multilingual
Matters.
Byram, M. (2020). Teaching and assessing intercultural communicative competence—Revisited.
Multilingual Matters.
74
Byram, M., & Zarate, G. (1994). Definitions, objectives and assessment of socio-cultural
competence. Council of Europe.
Caumartin, A., Escales, C., Gommez Despres, S., Kérébel, S., Moore, P., Morand, H., Newman,
E., & Toneatti, O. (2022). Shine Bright 3e. Nathan.
https://enseignants.nathan.fr/catalogue/shine-bright-3e-livre-de-l-eleve-9782091781815.html
Childs, C., & Cole, B. (2023). Supralocal or localized? Was/were variation in British English
dialects. University of Pennsylvania Working Papers in Linguistics, 59–69.
CNESCO. (2019). Langues vivantes étrangères: Comment l’école peut-elle mieux accompagner
les élèves? Dossier de synthèse. https://www.cnesco.fr/wpcontent/uploads/2023/10/Dossier-synthese-langues_Cnesco.pdf
Cogo, A. (2016). English as a Lingua Franca in Europe (pp. 79–89).
https://doi.org/10.1515/9781614518952-014
Cook, V. (1999). Going beyond the Native Speaker in Language Teaching. TESOL Quarterly,
33(2), 185. https://doi.org/10.2307/3587717
Council of Europe. (n.d.). L’approche actionnelle—Cadre européen commun de référence pour
les langues (CECR). Cadre européen commun de référence pour les langues (CECR).
Retrieved 19 April 2024, from https://www.coe.int/fr/web/common-european-frameworkreference-languages/the-action-oriented-approach
De Bartolo, A., & Mancuso, C. (2021). The Promotion of Intercultural Understanding in English
Language Teaching Textbooks A Content Analysis: A Content Analysis. EL.LE, 10.
https://doi.org/10.30687/ELLE/2280-6792/2021/03/004
Deardorff, D. K. (2006). Identification and Assessment of Intercultural Competence as a Student
Outcome of Internationalization. Journal of Studies in International Education, 10(3), 241–
266. https://doi.org/10.1177/1028315306287002
Derivry-Plard, M. (2006). Les enseignants ”natifs” et ”non-natifs” de langue(s): Catégorisation
linguistique ou construction sociale ? Travaux de Didactique Du FLE, N° 55, 100–108.
75
Derivry-Plard, M. (2016). Les enseignants de langues dans la mondialisation. In
Http://journals.openedition.org/lectures. Archives contemporaines.
https://journals.openedition.org/lectures/19896?lang=es
Devenir assistant de langue en France | France Education international. (n.d.). Retrieved 17 April
2024, from https://www.france-education-international.fr/venir-en-france/devenir-assistantde-langue-en-france
Direction générale de l‟éducation, de la jeunesse, du sport et de la culture (Commission
européenne). (2012). First European survey on language competences :final report. Office
des publications de l‟Union européenne. https://data.europa.eu/doi/10.2766/34160
Dix, B. P. (2022). 10 Revisiting Intercultural Communicative Competence in Language Teacher
Education: Perspectives from Colombia. In 10 Revisiting Intercultural Communicative
Competence in Language Teacher Education: Perspectives from Colombia (pp. 168–187).
Multilingual Matters. https://doi.org/10.21832/9781800412613-017
Europarat (Ed.). (2020). Common European framework of reference for languages: Learning,
teaching, assessment ; companion volume. Council of Europe Publishing.
Fantini, A. E. (n.d.). A Central Concern: Developing Intercultural Competence.
Gerard, F.-M., & Roegiers, X. (2009). Des manuels scolaires pour apprendre: Concevoir, évaluer,
utiliser (2nd ed.). De Boeck.
Golubeva, I., Wagner, M., & McConachy, T. (2022). Introduction: Michael Byram‟s Contribution to
Intercultural Learning in Language Education and Beyond. In T. McConachy, I. Golubeva, &
M. Wagner (Eds.), Intercultural Learning in Language Education and Beyond (pp. xxi–xxx).
Multilingual Matters. https://doi.org/10.21832/9781800412613-006
Gray, J. (2023). Developing intercultural competence in the teaching of english between
educational and social settings: The role of self-regulation inintercultural telecollaboration
learning environments [Phdthesis, Université de Bordeaux]. https://theses.hal.science/tel04372554
76
Hoff, H. (2014). A critical discussion of Byram‟s model of intercultural communicative competence
in the light of Bildung theories. Intercultural Education, 25.
https://doi.org/10.1080/14675986.2014.992112
Howatt, A. P. R., & Smith, R. (2014). The History of Teaching English as a Foreign Language,
from a British and European Perspective. Language & History, 57(1), 75–95.
https://doi.org/10.1179/1759753614Z.00000000028
Hymes, D. (1972). On Communicative Competence. https://nimshav.github.io/EthnoCommRepository/EOC_Library/Hymes%20-%201972%20%20On%20Communicative%20Competence.pdf
Ilie, O.-A. (2019). The Intercultural Competence. Developing Effective Intercultural
Communication Skills. International Conference KNOWLEDGE-BASED ORGANIZATION,
25, 264–268. https://doi.org/10.2478/kbo-2019-0092
Joseph, J. E. (2004). Language and Identity: National, Ethnic, Religious. Macmillan.
Kian, Z. E. (2016). Presentation of Intercultural Competence in English Language Textbooks: The
Case of a Private Language School in Iran. 6(11). https://doi.org/10.15341/jmer(21557993)/11.06.2016/008
Kramsch, C. (1998). Language and Culture. Oxford University Press.
Kramsch, C., & Hua, Z. (2016). Language and culture in ELT. In G. Hall (Ed.), The Routledge
Handbook of English Language Teaching (1st ed., pp. 38–50). Routledge.
https://doi.org/10.4324/9781315676203-5
Lee, T.-Y., Ho, Y.-C., & Chen, C.-H. (2023). Integrating intercultural communicative competence
into an online EFL classroom: An empirical study of a secondary school in Thailand. AsianPacific Journal of Second and Foreign Language Education, 8(1), 4.
https://doi.org/10.1186/s40862-022-00174-1
Leroy, M. (2012). Les manuels scolaires: Situation et perspectives (Inspection Générale de
l‟éducation Nationale 2012–036).
77
Liddicoat, A. (2019). Critical Perspectives in Intercultural Language Learning. 17–38.
https://doi.org/10.12795/elia.mon.2019.i1.02.
Liddicoat, A., & Scarino, A. (2013). Intercultural Language Teaching and Learning. In Intercultural
Language Teaching and Learning. https://doi.org/10.1002/9781118482070.ch5
López-Rocha, S. (2016). Intercultural communicative competence: Creating awareness and
promoting skills in the language classroom. In C. Goria, O. Speicher, & S. Stollhans (Eds.),
Innovative language teaching and learning at university: Enhancing participation and
collaboration (pp. 105–111). Research-publishing.net.
https://doi.org/10.14705/rpnet.2016.000411
López-Rocha, S., & Arévalo-Guerrero, E. (2014). Intercultural Communication Discourse. In The
Routledge Handbook of Hispanic Applied Linguistics. Routledge.
Ministère de l‟Education Nationale et de la Jeunesse. (n.d.). Programmes scolaires. Ministère de
l‟Education Nationale et de la Jeunesse. Retrieved 19 April 2024, from
https://www.education.gouv.fr/programmes-scolaires-41483
Norton, B. (2013). Identity and Language Learning: Extending the Conversation. In Identity and
Language Learning. Multilingual Matters. https://doi.org/10.21832/9781783090563
Østrem, I. M. (2021). Analysis of EFL textbooks for lower secondary school: How effectively do
new EFL textbooks in lower secondary schools facilitate intercultural competence and
accommodate LK20 guidelines about intercultural competence? [Western Norway University
of Applied Sciences]. https://hvlopen.brage.unit.no/hvlopenxmlui/bitstream/handle/11250/2770430/Ostrem.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
Piece of Cake—Anglais 3e. (2017). Lelivrescolaire.fr.
https://www.calameo.com/books/0005967295adee97273df
Programme Nationale Cycle 4. (2020). Ministère de l‟Education nationale et de la Jeunesse.
https://eduscol.education.fr/document/621/download
Richards, J. C. (2001). The Role of Textbooks in a Language Program. Cambridge University
Press. http://www.cup.org.br/articles/articles_21.html
78
Risager, K. (2021). Language textbooks: Windows to the world. Language, Culture and
Curriculum, 34(2), 119–132. https://doi.org/10.1080/07908318.2020.1797767
Sapir, E. (1949). Selected Writings of Edward Sapir in Language, Culture and Personality.
University of California Press.
Sauvayre, R. (2013). Les méthodes de l’entretien en sciences sociales. Dunod; Cairn.info.
https://www.cairn.info/les-methodes-de-l-entretien-en-sciences-sociales-9782100579709.htm
Tardieu, C. (2014). Résurgence et rémanence des méthodes au fil du temps: Réflexion sur les
méthodologies de l‟enseignement de l‟anglais en France. Recherche et pratiques
pédagogiques en langues. Cahiers de l’Apliut, Vol. XXXIII N° 2, Article Vol. XXXIII N° 2.
https://doi.org/10.4000/apliut.4373
Tran, T. Q., & Duong, T. M. (2018). The effectiveness of the intercultural language
communicative teaching model for EFL learners. Asian-Pacific Journal of Second and
Foreign Language Education, 3(1), 6. https://doi.org/10.1186/s40862-018-0048-0
Vali, S. (2015). Intercultural Learning in Textbooks. Cuvillier Verlag.
Wang, Y., Deardorff, D., & Kulich, S. (2017). Chinese perspectives on intercultural competence in
international higher education (pp. 95–109). https://doi.org/10.4324/9781315529257-9
Weninger, C. (2018). Textbook Analysis. Wiley & Sons. https://doi.org/DOI:
10.1002/9781405198431.wbeal1489
Wilberschied, L. (2015). Intercultural Communicative Competence: Literature Review.
Zhang, L., Tsung, L., & Qi, X. (2023). Home language use and shift in Australia: Trends in the
new millennium. Frontiers in Psychology, 14, 1096147.
https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2023.1096147
79
Appendix
A. Interview transcripts with vertical
analysis notes
The following pages are the recorded transcripts of nine participants used in Phase 2 of the
methodology. Vertical analysis notes can be found at the end of each participant‟s transcript.
80
Participant 1
This interview was recorded on April 15, 2024 in Bordeaux,
France.
R = Researcher
P1 – Participant 1
R: [00:04 - 00:16] Donc pour commencer, est-ce que vous
pouvez vous présenter et parler un peu de votre poste actuel
?
P1: Je parle de mes études ici ? Je parle de tout ?
R: oui, oui, ou après.. [00:17 - 00:25] Je vais fermer la porte,
pardon.
P1: [00:25 - 00:37] Donc, je m'appelle _____________. Je
suis enseignante au lycée Saint-Genes.. de Bordeaux. Je
suis agrégée. [00:37 - 00:48] Alors, j'ai eu l'agrégation interne
il y a deux ans et j'ai eu le CAPES 2004.
R: D'accord.
P1: [00:49 - 01:01] Je suis prof au lycée. Je donne aussi des
cours au lycée Montaigne depuis très longtemps, depuis 15
ans. [01:02 - 01:15] Et puis, je suis enseignante au lycée
Saint-Genes. Je fais plein d'autres choses à côté. Je suis
aussi auteur chez Hatier, de manuels scolaires.
R: Très intéressant pour moi.
P1: Oui, et je suis membre de jury à Sciences Po et à
Polytechnique. [01:15 - 01:26] Donc, je conçois les sujets et
je fais passer les oraux.
R: Et comment vous gérez tout ça alors ? Vous êtes
enseignante à temps plein quand même?
P1: [01:26 - 01:37] En étant agrégée, je n'ai que 15 heures
au lycée. Ça me permet de... L'école, c'est deux heures par
semaine. Et puis, après, Sciences Po, les dossiers, c'est en
ce moment. [01:38 - 01:50] Et Polytechnique, c'est les oraux,
c'est à la fin de l'année.
R: D'accord.
P1: Mais effectivement, il faut le faire en fonction du temps.
R: Ok. Oui, c'est intéressant. Oui. [01:50 - 02:02] On va bien
sûr parler plus de cet aspect de manuels scolaires un peu
plus tard. C'est très intéressant que vous travaillez sur les
manuels. Ça, c'est super. Mais est-ce que vous pouvez peutêtre...[02:03 - 02:16] Expliquer un peu plus votre expérience
en termes d'être enseignant en France ? Est-ce que vous
avez enseigné au niveau collège aussi ?
P1: Oui, oui, oui. Jusqu'à l'année dernière. Mais je...[02:16 02:28] Oui. Parce qu'en fait, le Saint-Genes, c'est collège et
lycée. Il m'arrive aussi de remplacer des collègues au
collège. Donc, je connais très, très bien le collège aussi. J'ai
aussi été enseignante en Angleterre,[02:28 - 02:40] parce
que j'ai commencé assistante de français. J'étais à Londres
pendant trois ans.
R:Ok.
P1: Et j'ai une expérience de français langue étrangère
aussi. J'ai un diplôme de français langue étrangère. Ok.
Parce qu'à la base, c'est ce que je faisais. [02:40 - 02:50]
J'adorais enseigner le français aux Anglais. Donc, voilà.
Donc, le collège... Qu'est-ce que vous voulez savoir sur
collège, lycée ?
R: Les deux. [02:50 - 03:03] Le mémoire, c'est surtout au
niveau de collège.
P1: Alors, collège. Les classes... La façon dont je travaille.
R: La façon où vous travaillez. Comment vous voyez
l'enseignement des langues [03:03 - 03:16] au niveau du
collège en France? Peut-être on peut commencer comme ça.
P1: Alors, l'enseignement des langues... Ce que je trouve qui
a changé aussi par rapport à ma pratique et que je trouve
intéressant pour le collège, [03:16 - 03:27] c'est qu'on prend
en compte de plus en plus les particularités des élèves.
Donc, ça veut dire les élèves dyslexiques, les élèves qui ont
des...[03:27 - 03:37] en fait, sur une classe de 30 élèves, il y
a environ 5 élèves qui ont des besoins particuliers. [03:37 03:46] Alors, soit hyperactifs, soit des HPI, soit des
dyslexiques, des élèves qui ont besoin de tiers temps, des
élèves qui ont des problèmes quelconques. [03:46 - 03:59]
En général, il y a 5 enfants qui ont des besoins particuliers.
Donc, quand on conçoit une évaluation, ça, c'est la première
chose qui me vient à l'esprit, mais quand on conçoit une
évaluation, souvent, une évaluation pour une classe de 6e,
[03:59 - 04:10] c'est 3 ou 4 sujets différents avec des
barèmes adaptés ou des choses comme ça, parce qu'il y a
une grande hétérogénéité. Donc, voilà, ça, c'est la première
chose. [04:10 - 04:22] La deuxième chose qui est propre au
collège, c'est la prise de parole et la spontanéité de la
production et de l'interaction. [04:23 - 04:34] Ça, c'est les
enfants petits, surtout les 6e, 5e, ont une appétence et sont
très, très... contents de participer en cours. [04:34 - 04:46] Et
ça, c'est quelque chose qui décline totalement à mesure que
l'enfant grandit et que l'adolescence arrive avec son
inhibition. En fait, les enfants se battent au collège pour
participer [04:46 - 04:58] et on retrouve les mêmes enfants
81
en seconde ou en première et là, c'est terminé. Ils ne parlent
plus. Et voilà, c'est complètement inversé.
R: Oui, ça, c'est intéressant [04:58 - 05:11] parce que peutêtre ils ont plusieurs niveaux, en fait, mais c'est juste qu'ils
ont peut-être la honte de parler devant les autres.
P1: Et ça, c'est flagrant, oui. C'est vraiment dommage. Ça,
c'est vraiment, vraiment dommage [05:11 - 05:23] parce qu'il
y a une effusion en classe sur le collège qu'on perd
totalement.
R: Oui, c'est un peu problématique, je pense, d'introduire les
langues étrangères [05:23 - 05:33] à cet âge, en fait. Ça,
c'est peut-être un peu problématique, comme vous le disiez.
Donc, la motivation des étudiants, [05:33 - 05:42] donc ils
sont motivés pour parler au début et après, est-ce qu'ils sont
motivés pour autre chose dans l'école de langues?
P1: [05:43 - 05:55] Ce qui est, alors, au collège, ce qui est
bien, c'est de, ce qui marche, en tout cas, pour
l'enseignement, c'est d'avoir [05:55 - 06:08] beaucoup
d'activités variées. De mise en situation aussi. Ils adorent
faire des scénettes, des chansons, des poèmes. Il faut
vraiment, en fait, un cours, [06:08 - 06:20] ça demande
beaucoup d'énergie avec beaucoup d'activités différentes.
De mise en situation, vraiment. Ils aiment beaucoup ça et il
faut varier les tâches finales. Proposer des tâches très, très,
très varies [06:21 - 06:33] et toujours en tenant compte de
cette hétérogénéité. Voilà, c'est ça.
R: Et pas que la linguistique, la musique, par exemple, c'est
vraiment culturel, par exemple.
P1: [06:33 - 06:45] Là, par exemple, j'ai une classe de
sixième en plus et là, on a écrit à Kate, par exemple, je leur
ai montré la video [06:46 - 06:58] parce qu'on a fait la famille
royale avec la possession, les membres de la famille, etc. Et
d'habitude, je leur fais ecrire leurs vœux à la famille royale
parce qu'on a des réponses de Buckingham Palace.
R: C'est vrai ?
P1: Ouais. Et en fait, ils adorent. [07:00 - 07:13] Ils avaient
de la peine quand Kate a dit qu'elle était malade. Donc, on a
regardé la vidéo, on a travaillé dessus et on a écrit une lettre
de bon rétablissement Kate. [07:13 - 07:25] Et ils adorent ce
genre de choses. Ou il y en a un qui est parti en vacances à
Londres et je leur ai dit, “ah, vous avez vu Paddington?”
“Non, on ne l'a pas vu”. Donc, du coup, c'est celui qui était
allé à Londres [07:25 - 07:38] qui a guidé les autres à
mesure que Paddington était dans Londres. Enfin, ils aiment
ce genre de choses.
R: Je trouve ça super.
P1: Faire un petit déjeuner anglais, les faire réagir à des
choses, ça, ils adorent. [07:38 - 07:49] Faire la cuisine, ils
font des scones avec des grammes, la farine et les machins.
Les sixièmes, c'est une classe [07:49 - 07:59] qui est très,
très bien pour ça. Ça leur plaît beaucoup, beaucoup,
beaucoup.
R: C'est bien. Je vais juste commander. Vous préférez quoi
comme café ?
P1: [07:59 - 08:09] Il y a du flat white ou un café crème?
“Café au lait ?” Oui, s'il vous plaît. Merci.
R: Et un espresso pour moi, s'il vous plaît. Super. [08:11 08:23] Et au niveau de lycée, ce sera intéressant pour
comparer un peu le collège-lycée, les différences, les
similarités.
P1: Alors, les différences, là, c'est clairement la participation
orale. [08:25 - 08:37] Il y a une chose, alors, je ne sais pas si
c'est le but, mais il y a quelque chose qui a vraiment modifié
la pratique enseignante depuis quelques années. Et en
général, le fait d'être prof d'anglais est hyper compliqué au
lycée. [08:37 - 08:49] En première et en terminale, c'est
Parcoursup. Tu vois ce que c'est ?
R: Le cours supplémentaire ?
P1: Non, Parcoursup, c'est le système d'orientation[08:50 09:02] après le bac. Donc, c'est un gros algorithme, en fait,
sur lequel les élèves envoient leurs dossiers, de première et
de terminale, pour être orientés après le bac.[09:02 - 09:13]
Et ça crée une pression inouïe sur les professeurs, parce
que, nous, on les a deux heures par semaine, deux heures
ou deux heures et demie par semaine, en première et en
terminale. On doit évaluer toutes les compétences,[09:13 09:26] comme ça fait, les effectifs sont surchargés, enfin,
nous, ils sont 39, 40. Et en fait, on est des machines à
évaluer. Et le problème, c'est qu'ils ont telle pression sur les
notes, comme on l'a rencontré quand ____?, que quand je
rends des notes,[09:26 - 09:38] maintenant, c'est moi qui
dois rendre des comptes, et quand ils n'ont pas 20, il est loin,
mais “pourquoi je n'ai pas 20?” Et ça a mis énormément
dans ce monde. [09:39 - 09:51] Ça a complètement cassé.
Normalement, on est devenu un outil, et même l'anglais,
c'est une matière dont ils ont besoin, et c'est devenu, moi, je
suis devenue une machine à évaluer et un outil.[09:51 10:00] Ils ont perdu... Avant, j'avais, avant Parcoursup, je
faisais des projets super avec les élèves, parce qu'ils ne
travaillaient pas uniquement pour cette machine,[10:01 10:11] et là, c'est un vrai défi d'arriver à tout faire. Bon, alors
après, pour l'enseignement... Merci. Merci. [10:12 - 10:24]
Pour l'enseignement, oui, ils participent. C'est plus
compliqué, parce qu'ils sont plus inhibés, ils sont beaucoup
plus nombreux. Je les ai beaucoup moins, parce que 6e,
c'est 4 heures, terminale, c'est 2 heures.[10:25 - 10:37] En
fait, j'ai le sentiment de courir, courir, courir toute l'année,
parce qu'il faut évaluer, en plus, toutes les compétences très
vite. Les séances doivent s'enchaîner... Alors, les séquences
sont plus courtes,[10:37 - 10:46] donc bam, bam, bam, on va
très vite, et voilà. Alors...
R: Donc, il n'y a pas assez de temps.
P1: C'est un peu frustrant. En fait, j'avoue que c'est un petit
peu frustrant.[10:48 - 11:01] Quand on n'a pas
d'enseignement de spécialité au lycée, je trouve que le
métier du cours de l'anglais, c'est plus frustrant que c'était
avant.
R: OK.
P1: Parce qu'on n'a pas les conditions idéales pour...[11:06 11:18] J‟ai l‟impression qu‟on a pas le temps a rien faire... Je
suis en train faire, j'ai fait une séquence sur les fake news. Et
en première, ce que je veux faire, là, c'est une production
orale en interaction,[11:19 - 11:31] donc un débat. Mais
mettre en place un débat à 39... En fait, donc, j'ai décidé de
faire...
R: 20 contre 20.
P1: Voilà, donc, c'est ça. Du coup, je vais faire 3
débats[11:31 - 11:42] en divisant la classe par 3, etc. C'est
très lourd, en fait. C'est très, très lourd. Voilà. Mais c'est
pareil, je leur propose... Alors, je fais feu de tout bois. C'està-dire que là, j'avais...[11:43 - 11:55] Comme j'ai une
expérience en français et langue étrangère, j'ai une copine à
l'Alliance française, et elle m'a dit qu'elle avait un groupe
d'étudiants anglais qui était là pour 2 semaines. J'ai fait venir
les étudiants,[11:55 - 12:08] et mes élèves devaient les
[eleves FLE AF] interviewer et faire un sondage sur les fake
news et la façon dont les adolescents s'informent. Et ça, ils
ont adoré. Après, ils ont dû écrire un jour... Un article de
journal. En fait, voilà, j'essaie toujours...[12:08 - 12:20] Le
truc qui est chouette dans le métier de prof anglais, c'est les
tâches finales. On peut vraiment s'amuser sur les fake news.
R: C'est ça le plus important.
P1: Et ce qui marche vraiment, c'est quand... Soit c'est
l'actualité, donc avec Kate, voilà,[12:20 - 12:31] soit vraiment
échanger avec des Anglais qui sont là et qui donnent leur
point de vue. Voilà. Là, par exemple, il y a un film qui va
sortir qui s'appelle “C'est le roi qui parle de...”[12:31 - 12:44]
C'est une dystopie sur le fait que... qu'il puisse y avoir une
guerre civile à nouveau aux Etats-Unis. C'est les devoirs que
j'ai donnés à faire à mes terminals pendant les vacances.
82
Est-ce que je vais faire une thématique dessus ?[12:44 12:56] Parce qu'on a parlé de la polarisation aux Etats-Unis.
Ça, ça leur plaît beaucoup. En fait, il faut motiver... Il faut
proposer des tâches ultra motivantes aux élèves [12:56 13:05] et très variées.
R: OK.
P1: Il faut dire ce qu'il trouve motivant parce que c'est très
varié. Oui.[13:05 - 13:17] Pour moi, ce que je comprends,
c'est souvent des choses réelles, en fait. Des choses réelles
du monde qu'il peut comprendre... Des choses réelles qu'il
les positionne en tant que citoyens[13:17 - 13:29] et qui les
poussent à avoir besoin de parler. Oui. Voilà. Parce que là,
c'est bête, mais même pour les sixièmes, je leur montre une
publicité[13:29 - 13:41] et ils ont besoin de vocabulaire pour
réagir. Donc, en fait, c'est ça. C'est qu'il faut qu'il y ait un vrai
besoin. Ils ont des correspondants. Ah oui, aussi, sur toutes
mes classes, j'ai des correspondants. Américains,
Canadiens, tout ça. Et c'est ça.[13:41 - 13:53] C'est qu'ils ont
besoin de parler. À tous les niveaux, je le fais dans toutes les
classes. Et c'est... Voilà.
R: C'est ça. Parce que pour voir l'utilité de la langue ou
de...[13:54 - 14:06] C'est pas juste un... Un métier qu'on fait à
l'école juste pour passer du temps, quoi.
P1: Voilà. C'est ça. Et le défi... Enfin, là, il faut plus que
jamais... Là, je sens qu'il faut vraiment... Je peux pas
proposer de trucs abstraits[14:06 - 14:19] parce que, de toute
façon, c'est... Ça irait vraiment contre... Contre ce qu'ils
veulent faire. Donc, voilà. Mais c'est l'intérêt. Le fait que ça,
c'est sympa. Mais...
R: Je suis intéressé...[14:19 - 14:30] Parce que vous avez
enseigné aussi au Royaume-Uni. Oui. Dans le système
public, aussi?
P1: Alors, non, j'étais dans le privé. C'était il y a longtemps,
moi.[14:31 - 14:41] Donc, ça fait trois ans. C'était une école
catholique de jeunes filles. Et qui était dans un quartier
défavorisé[14:42 - 14:55] qui était situé dans le nord-ouest de
Londres. Il y avait beaucoup de filles irlandaises et
caribéennes, africaines...
R: Ouais
P1: [14:55 - 15:06] Et du coup, c'était des pays avec de la
religion catholique, en fait. Et... Et l'enseignement... Mais j'ai
beaucoup appris pendant cette expérience-là.[15:06 - 15:16]
Parce qu'à l'époque, cette façon d'enseigner qu'on a
aujourd'hui était beaucoup plus répandue en Angleterre. Et
là-bas, j'ai appris, même avec le français langue
étrangère,[15:17 - 15:29] j'ai appris des techniques beaucoup
plus vivantes qui font que, quand je suis rentrée en France,
j'ai passé mon concours et tout ça, mais j'avais déjà ce sens
de faire des tâches finales. Parce qu'on ne fonctionnait pas
comme ça, forcément, à l'époque.[15:29 - 15:40] À l'époque,
c'était moins marqué. Là, maintenant, c'est très net. Là, les
deux choses les plus importantes, en fait, quand on est prof
d'anglais, c'est la tâche finale,[15:41 - 15:52] et de toujours
être en accord avec le CECRL. Tu vois, le Cadre Européen
de Référence pour les Langues, la commune de référence
pour les langues. Ça, en fait, c'est vraiment les deux mots
clés. CECRL, final task.
R: [15:54 - 16:06] Et le programme national ?
P1: Le programme national aussi, évidemment. Mais en fait,
c'est le truc-là. Et oui, évidemment, le programme, ça, c'est...
R: Il faut toujours penser à le programme national aussi.
P1: Toujours.[16:06 - 16:17] Mais ce qui est bien, c'est que le
programme, les programmes sont quand même assez
intéressants pour qu'on puisse faire entrer beaucoup de
thématiques dedans. Quand quelque chose nous
intéresse,[16:17 - 16:28] il y a toujours un axe ou une
thématique qui permet de raccrocher.
R: D'accord. Donc, vous trouvez qu'il y a assez de liberté en
tant que prof ?
P1: Oui.[16:30 - 16:40] Oui. Oui. Oui. Parce que ce que est
bien, c'est d'arriver à... voilà, on part des besoins nousmêmes. Moi, je sais que je m'adapte beaucoup aux besoins
et aux profils des élèves.[16:40 - 16:51] Quelquefois, on se
rend compte qu'une tâche finale qu'on avait prévue ne
fonctionnera pas avec une classe qui est plus... Je ne sais
pas, qui a des centres d'intérêt[16:51 - 17:03] ou qui est
composée d'enfants qui ont d'autres centres d'intérêt. Et
puis, quelquefois, il faut corriger le tir. Et ça arrive souvent. Et
c'est pour ça qu'il faut quand même être assez flexible. Et
oui, on a quand même une liberté.[17:04 - 17:15] Oui, oui. Et
une liberté pédagogique, ça c'est sûr.
R: Très bien. J'aimerais vous poser des questions sur le
matériel, bien sûr, les manuels scolaires. [17:16 - 17:28]
Donc, qu'est-ce que vous utilisez encore en termes de
manuels ou d'autres matériels que vous trouvez ?
P1: Alors, au lycée, en fait,[17:28 - 17:39] avant, j'étais
professeure à Grand-Lebrun pendant 15 ans, à un lycée
privé aussi. Et c'est quand j'étais à Grand-Lebrun que j'ai
rejoint l'équipe d'auteurs à Hatier, au lycée.[17:39 - 17:50]
Donc, j'ai fait toute la collection, Let‟s Meetup, seconde,
première, terminale. Et quand je suis arrivée à Saint-Genes
en classe de première, ils avaient mon manuel. Donc ça,
c'est super. On utilise ces manuels-là en première.[17:51 18:04] Mais en fait, au lycée, j'utilise surtout mes cours, en
fait. Et mes documents qui sont très souvent tirés de
l'actualité.[18:04 - 18:08] Enfin, vraiment, je me sers
beaucoup de la presse,[18:09 - 18:18] d'extraits de journaux
télé, de films, d'interviews, de tout ce que je trouve.[18:19 18:29] J'écoute aussi beaucoup la radio, tout ce qui se
passe, en fait. Et je prends des séquences comme ça. Donc,
je regarde les thématiques du livre. Je regarde les
thématiques du programme, évidemment, ça c'est sûr.[18:30
- 18:43] Et après, j'essaie d'adapter l'actualité et aussi ce que
font mes collègues en sciences économiques ou en histoire
géo pour que les élèves trouvent une transversalité.[18:43 18:55] Parce que justement, je n'ai pas assez de cours.
Enfin, deux heures de cours, pour moi, ce n'est vraiment pas
assez. Donc, je fais des liens. J'essaie de faire des liens.
Pour vous donner un exemple,[19:01 - 19:08] là, j'ai fait un
projet. Donc, je suis prof principale aussi en terminale. J'ai
fait un projet avec ma collègue de sciences économiques et
sociales.[19:08 - 19:14] On a fait un voyage à Bruxelles sur
les institutions européennes.[19:16 - 19:28] Et on a rencontré
un homme politique qui était chargé du développement
durable. Bon, ben là, j'ai fait une thématique sur le
développement durable. Voilà. En fait, j'essaie de faire ça.
R: Oui.
P1: [19:28 - 19:40] Que ce soit complémentaire. Mais j'utilise
peu de support de manuels scolaires. Voilà. Là, je sais que
pour le film...
R: [19:40 - 19:50] Comment vous voyez les manuels
scolaires en France en général, si vous pouvez dire ?
P1: En fait, là, je suis jugée partie. Parce que pour avoir
travaillé sur un manuel scolaire,[19:51 - 20:03] je trouve que
les manuels sont jugés de façon trop sévère par les
enseignants. Parce qu'en fait, on se glorifie à dire... En fait,
c'est un petit peu...[20:04 - 20:15] Tous les profs que vous
allez voir vont dire « Oh non, moi, je n'utilise pas du tout les
manuels ». Sauf qu'un manuel scolaire, c'est une équipe qui
travaille pendant un an[20:16 - 20:27] en s'assurant qu'on est
vraiment... On respecte le programme, on respecte le cadre
européen. Les tâches sont logiques, etc. Enfin, moi, je sais
que ça a été un travail phénoménal de faire ça.[20:27 20:37] Et je trouve qu'on juge de façon un peu trop sévère
les manuels. Bon, moi, je sais qu'au lycée, je ne les utilise
pas trop[20:37 - 20:48] parce que je préfère utiliser des
choses de la vraie vie. Mais je ne critique pas pour autant les
manuels. Mais j'utilise ça parce que l'inconvénient aussi de
tout faire[20:49 - 20:56] en fonction de l'actualité ou de mes
goûts ou des goûts de mes élèves, c'est que je travaille tout
le temps. Je suis tout le temps en train de faire de nouvelles
83
choses.[20:57 - 21:10] Et je comprends aussi que quand une
séquence de manuels fonctionne, je comprends très bien le
fait de l'utiliser. Alors, en revanche, pour le collège,[21:11 21:20] et là, je vous le dis à la fois en tant que prof et que
maman d'enfants, j'utilise beaucoup plus le manuel[21:20 21:29] parce que les enfants ont besoin, et leurs familles
aussi, n'ont pas assez d'autonomie, par exemple en sixième.
Et notamment au début de l'année,[21:29 - 21:40] pour bien
cadrer et pour permettre à chacun de comprendre ce qu'il
faut faire, d'avoir des repères, là, le manuel, oui, je l'utilise. Et
j'utilise aussi le cahier d'activité.[21:41 - 21:48] Parce que le
cahier d'activité, il y en a qui sont très très bien faits. Nous,
on travaille avec “I Bet You Can”. C'est très très bien.[21:48 22:01] C'est hyper adapté en méthodologie, en vocabulaire,
en grammaire. Et... Parce que moi, je sais que mon fils,
quand il était en sixième et en cinquième,[22:01 - 22:13] avait
des profs qui n'utilisaient aucun manuel. Et c'est quand
même très compliqué. Parce que quand on veut, même en
étant prof d'anglais, bon, mon fils est bilingue, ok,[22:13 22:25] mais même en étant prof d'anglais, j'avais beaucoup
de mal à suivre la logique des professeurs. Donc c'est vrai
que c'est quand même un repère, moi je trouve qu'au
collège, c'est quand même un repère. C'est utile pour les
familles. Oui.[22:25 - 22:37] Et puis, même pour les enfants,
ça leur permet de devenir plus autonomes. Ils savent qu'il y a
des façons d'apprendre. Ils peuvent réfléchir sur des règles.
Je trouve que c'est bien, en fait.
R: Ok. Oui, c'est intéressant.
P1: [22:37 - 22:47] Je ne fais pas la même réponse au lycée
et au collège.
R: Parce que les élèves sont plus indépendants, etc. Ok, je
vois.
P1: Oui. Par contre, ce que je fais aussi toujours au
lycée,[22:48 - 23:01] c'est que ils ont un manuel. Donc, je
peux faire une séquence. Par exemple, sur les séquences
que je vais faire sur la dystopie Civil War, je vais leur dire
que s'ils veulent du vocabulaire ou des références,[23:01 23:12] il y a une unité dystopie dans leur manuel. Je vais leur
dire, si vous avez besoin de plus de vocabulaire, etc., vous
pouvez vous appuyer sur ces pages. Parce que, voilà, il y a
un précis grammatical,[23:12 - 23:24] il y a des outils
méthodologiques. Donc, pour eux, c'est une référence dans
laquelle ils peuvent piocher s'ils trouvent que le contenu du
cours
est
insuffisant.
Donc,
c'est
une
autre
problématique,[23:24 - 23:36] c'est qu'on est limité en
photocopie. On a des quotas de photocopie qui sont limités.
Et ça, c'est hyper important parce que, quand on a 40 élèves
et 2000 photocopies...
R: Ils ont une copie de manuel, les élèves?
P1: [23:37 - 23:47] Ils ont des manuels, mais on est limité en
photocopie. Nous, les profs. Oui. Je ne peux pas donner 200
feuilles imprimées aux élèves par an, en fait. C'est pas
possible.
R: Oui.
P1: [23:47 - 23:59] Donc, c'est aussi ça, quand on travaille
sans manuel, ça veut dire qu'il faut qu'on puisse donner des
papiers, des worksheets, et tout ça, des feuilles d'activité.
Oui. On ne peut pas en faire. On est limité. Donc, il faut
trouver. Et puis, il faut aussi penser à l'écologie.[23:59 24:11] Donc, en fait, on a beaucoup de... Dans la pratique, il
y a beaucoup de contraintes parce que, idéalement, oui, il
faut créer ces séquences. Sauf que créer une séquence, ça
veut dire aussi donner des feuilles,[24:11 - 24:24] beaucoup
de feuilles de papier à un nombre qui est énorme d'élèves.
Des élèves qui, par ailleurs, ont un livre qui leur est fourni.
Donc, bon, il faut trouver... En fait, il faut naviguer entre tout
ça. C'est-à-dire...[24:24 - 24:35] Donc, moi, pour trouver la
solution, j'utilise les manuels scolaires comme référence que
je donne aux élèves.
R: Oui
P1: Je donne des cotocopies, mais je ne peux pas en donner
200.[24:35 - 24:46] Et puis, voilà, par exemple,
concrètement, je ne peux pas organiser de sorties au cinéma
avec tous les élèves. Donc, je leur demande d'aller voir. Et
on va travailler en classe. Mais c'est ça.[24:46 - 24:57] Il faut
toujours trouver des solutions parce qu'il y a des choses qui
sont compliquées. Oui. Oui. Et d'autant que les élèves…sont
des regroupements. Alors, c'est aussi ça.[24:57 - 25:06]
C'est-à-dire que maintenant, les élèves, quand ils sont au
lycée, ils sont 38-40, c'est des regroupements d'élèves.
Donc, ma classe, c'est trois classes.[25:06 - 25:19] Donc,
faire une sortie au cinéma, c'est impossible parce que ça
veut dire que j'empêche de travailler trois classes. Voilà.
Donc, il y a aussi ça. C'est un casse-tête.
R: OK. Oui.[25:19 - 25:27] Oui. Tout à fait. Et en termes de
contenu, qu'on peut trouver dans les manuels scolaires au
niveau collège, si possible.[25:28 - 25:34] Je sais que vous
m'avez parlé beaucoup des tâches finales qui sont très
importantes[25:34 - 25:46] et qui sont pour vous souvent
d'une manière interculturelle parce que vous faites vos
élèves à interagir un peu avec le monde anglophone ou qui
parle l'anglais.[25:46 - 25:53] C'est ça qui m'intéresse
beaucoup et c'est un peu le cas de mon mémoire. C'est cet
aspect intercultural dans les cours d‟anglais .[25:54 - 26:06]
C'est vraiment basé pour préparer les élèves à interagir avec
des personnes d'autres cultures, pas seulement sur les
notions linguistiques, mais aussi culturellement.[26:06 26:19] Est-ce que vous voyez ça ? Est-ce que vous pensez
que ça c'est bien représenté dans les manuels scolaires ?
P1: Ah, dans les manuels scolaires, oui (IC est bien
représenté). Oui. Oui, oui, oui. Là, par exemple.[26:19 26:30] Par exemple, j'ai en tête le manuel des quatrièmes.
Parce que là, pour le coup, j'ai fait un remplacement en
quatrième. J'ai remplacé une collègue qui est enceinte. Il n'y
avait pas de remplaçant. Ça aussi, voilà.
R: [26:30 - 26:40] Oui, ça c'est pour un autre mémoire.
P1: Je me suis retrouvée sur ce niveau-là. Et là, la
thématique, c'était le Canada.[26:41 - 26:52] Et c'était très,
très intéressant. L'aspect culturel était vraiment intéressant. Il
sortait d'une séquence sur l'Australie qui était super, super
intéressante.[26:53 - 27:04] En fait, elle était intelligente
parce qu'il y avait beaucoup, beaucoup d'aspects de
l'Australie qui permettaient, en fait, de gérer l'hétérogénéité.
C'est-à-dire qu'il y avait des faits tout à fait basiques.[27:04 27:17] Et d'autres qui étaient beaucoup plus intéressants, sur
les aborigènes, les choses. Voilà. Oui. Donc, c'est pas mal.
R: Un peu plus profond, si on peut dire.
P1: Oui, oui. Pas que des stéréotypes sur l'Australie.
R: Voilà. Voilà.
P1: [27:17 - 27:22] Et puis, pas que des considérations
géographiques. Mais après, c'est intéressant quand même.
Parce qu'il y avait[27:23 - 27:36] une unité sur l'histoire de
l'Australie et de la population de l'Australie. Après, il y a
l'Australie aujourd'hui. Il y a l'Australie et les
aborigènes.[27:36 - 27:49] Il y a l'art. Enfin, et c'est
foisonnant. Et en fait, on peut prendre ce qu'on veut. Et les
élèves ont quand même des informations. Ils ont quand
même, à la fin, découvert des choses très intéressantes
d'Australie. Super.[27:49 - 28:02] Et là, ils font le cas. Il y a
l'Australie, le Canada. Oui, c'est assez... C'est assez
représenté. Pour la Saint-Patrick, aussi, on fait des trucs.
R: Il y a des pays ou des cultures non anglophones, à la
base, qui sont représentés?[28:02 - 28:12] Parce que là...
P1: Non Anglophones?
R: Maintenant, avec la mondialisation d'anglais comme
lingua franca de tout le monde, c'est
[28:12 - 28:22] sûr que les Français, les jeunes Français vont
parler l'anglais avec, même les Italiens, même...
P1: Alors non, pas du tout. C'est que des pays
anglophones.En fait, dans aucun...[28:23 - 28:31] Dans
84
aucun manuel et même dans aucun... Je m'avance un peu,
mais dans aucun programme officiel d'enseignement des
langues vivantes,[28:32 - 28:42] il y a de l'unité sur un pays
qui n'appartient pas à l'ère linguistique couverte. Par
exemple, pour l'anglais...[28:42 - 28:51] Par contre, on nous
insiste vraiment, et ça, c'est très bien, à utiliser, à brasser un
maximum de cultures. Notamment c'est que l'Afrique était
vraiment sous-représentée.[28:52 - 29:02] Les pays
anglophones africains étaient sous-représentés, par
exemple. Mais par contre, grâce à un livre d'anglais, un
manuel scolaire d'anglais, on ne va pas parler de
l'Italie.[29:03 - 29:10] Sauf si on apprend qu'il y a une
communauté anglophone, mais italienne...
R: [29:10 - 29:22] Mais, qu'en pensez-vous de ça ? Vous
pensez qu'on doit se concentrer sur les pays anglophones ?
P1: Oui.
R: Ou traiter l'anglais comme la lingua franca du monde ?
P1:Non. Moi, je pense qu'il faut...[29:22 - 29:33] En fait, je
pense qu'il est important d'ancrer la langue dans la culture.
Ça, par contre, c'est un truc...[29:33 - 29:46] Mais après, moi,
c'est ma conviction personnelle, et c'est quelque chose que
j'ai toujours vérifié. Je vous donne un exemple, mais... Je ne
parle pas coréen, par exemple, mais ça ne me viendrait pas
à l'idée d'aller voir un film coréen doublé en français.[29:46 29:52] Je vais voir un film coréen en français. Je vais voir un
film coréen, et je veux entendre la langue coréenne.
Part 2
The time stamps begin from thirty minutes into the interview.
[00:00 - 00:12] Je veux entendre la langue coréenne et je
trouve important qu'on découvre la langue avec ses
particularités dans le pays.[00:12 - 00:24] Aussi de
comprendre que les accents sont différents, que l'histoire est
différente, qu'il y a des points communs au sein même par
exemple du monde anglophone Il y a beaucoup de points
communs mais aussi beaucoup de differences.
R: [00:24 - 00:35] Si vous allez rencontrer un coréen, vous
allez parler quelle langue ?
P1: Oui je vais parler anglais mais je n'attends pas du coréen
qui m'apprenne à parler anglais[00:36 - 00:44] Mais je
comprends ce que vous voulez dire. Mais ça par contre c'est
(ICC) une vision à mon sens qui est trop utilitaire de la
langue,[00:45 - 00:52] et moi j'ai un attachement, parce que
je suis hyper littéraire et j'adore ça. Mon attachement il est
lié..[00:53 - 01:00] Pour moi la langue ce n'est pas qu'un
véhicule, c'est un vecteur d'histoire. Mais c'est ma
conception.[01:00 - 01:12] Mais je comprends, oui il se
trouve que l'anglais c'est la langue qui permet de
communiquer avec le monde entire. Parce que évidemment
si je vais en Corée, je vais parler anglais.
R: [01:13 - 01:25] Oui, je comprends votre position, c'est ça
aussi..dans notre deuxième langue on ne peut pas exprimer
de la même façon.
P1: Parce que c'est quoi le sujet de votre mémoire ?
R: [01:25 - 01:36] C'est ça, en fait c'est les compétences
interculturelles , et de quelle mesure elles sont présentes au
manuel scolaire, dans les manuels scolaires du
college.[01:37 - 01:45] Et c'est ça, comment elles influencent
les enseignants, l'enseignement d'anglais ici en France.
P1: [01:46 - 01:58] Parce que par exemple, je ne pense pas
m‟avancer, je n'ai jamais vu un manuel qui comporte..parce
qu'en plus, vraiment dans les programmes..
R: [01:58 - 02:09] Parce que je peux vous dire hors de la
France, il y a beaucoup beaucoup de cours d'anglais qui sont
centrés sur l'anglais comme la langue internationale.[02:09 02:18] Si vous prenez un manuel international, ils vont vous
donner des textes de n'importe quel pays.
P1: [02:18 - 02:30] Oui mais ils leur traduit, parce que nous le
problème c'est qu'on mis, en fait ce qui est valorisé, c'est
l‟autenticité des documents, c'est-à-dire qu'on le doit
travailler et c'est pour ça.
R: [02:30 - 02:42] Oui mais ça peut être un article qui est
écrit dans le monde anglophone . D'autres pays, par
exemple… il y a une série de manuels que j'aime très
bien,[02:42 - 02:54] c'est National Geographic qui le font,
donc c'est des articles qui sont écrits par National
Geographic. Qui prend des photos des gens,[02:54 - 03:07]
prendre des textes, etc. Mais c'est pas des textes qui
viennent de ces pays. Tu comprends ce que je voulais dire?
P1: Ah non je comprends tout. Mais alors par contre moi non
mais je suis en train de réfléchir. Je comprends.[03:08 03:19] Mais et alors non seulement, non seulement ça se fait
pas trop, mais en plus si je… Si on est inspecté et qu'on fait
ça, ça va nous être reproché.
R: [03:19 - 03:31] C'est-à-dire ?
P1: Ben on est obligé d'ancrer la culture dans le pays, dans
un pays anglophone et dans le monde anglo-saxon.
R: Ah oui j'ai pas vu ça.[03:31 - 03:42] Ça c'est dans le
programme national ?
P1:: Ah ouais. Parce qu'en fait je suis en train de… Là en
vous parlant je suis en train de me souvenir de de tout le
travail que j'avais fait chez Hatier.[03:42 - 03:53] Et il est
obligatoire d'avoir d'ancrer dans la culture. Ça c'est
vraiment… Par exemple je peux pas proposer… [03:55 -
04:05] Écrit par une coréenne qui habite à Séoul et qui parle
en anglais. Je ne suis pas sûre du tout que ça passé.
R: [04:07 - 04:17] Je suis choqué. C'est vraiment interdit ?
P1: Ben interdit… En tout cas je pense que ça peut être..
après chacun fait ce qu'il veut en classe. Mais je pense que
ça peut être reproché.[04:17 - 04:29] Parce que on part du
principe que c'est pas sa langue de maternelle. Et je
comprends effectivement, ça peut être une euh…[04:30 04:43] Parce que là vous avez quoi en reference? C'est quoi
vous… Pourquoi vous me posez cette question là ? Vous
avez des références ? National Geographic ou?
R: [04:43 - 04:55] C‟est un peu mon avis à moi
personnellement je pense qu'on doit enseigner L'anglais
comme la langue du monde maintenant parce que… c'est la
position utilitaire, je sais bien c'est ça,[04:55 - 05:08] Mais
…non je pense…Je pense à mes élèves. S'ils vont en
Espagne, dans un pays à côté, s'ils parlent pas espagnol Ils
vont parler l'anglais.[05:08 - 05:21] C'est ça la langue qu'ils
vont parler. Quand ils voyagent, s‟ils font du business.
P1: En quoi, le fait d'apprendre en cours[05:21 - 05:31] de
l'anglais parler par des Anglophones, en quoi ça peut gêner
l'interaction avec des personnes qui ne sont pas
anglophones ? Ça c'est la question que je vous pose.
R: [05:37 - 05:44] Parce que…Oui ça empêche pas. C'est
juste… Il y a beaucoup d'autres cultures à découvrir. [05:48 06:00] C'est quoi la question ?
P1: La question c'est en quoi est-il gênant d'apprendre à
parler anglais avec des ressources qui sont[06:01 - 06:14]
Anglophones et anglo-saxonnes, surtout quand on sait à quel
point l'aire anglo-saxonne est vaste. Oui. En quoi c'est
gênant pour après communiquer une fois sorti de la classe
en anglais avec des espagnols?
R: [06:14 - 06:24] Non c'est pas gênant. C'est juste Je vois
pas pourquoi on doit se concentrer sur les pays
Anglophones.
P1: Bah pour parler anglais
R: [06:24 - 06:36] Il y a plus de locataires d'anglais qui sont
non natifs que natifs.
P1: Oui je comprends. Mais je suis la première… vous allez
voir les réponses des autres[06:36 - 06:49] mais je pense
que tout le monde répondra comme moi, parce que en fait
les programmes et la façon dont on enseigne l'anglais insiste
énormément sur l'authenticité[06:49 - 07:01] en fait ce qu'on
peut dire par authenticité, c'est que on doit d'utiliser des
ressources
[07:01 - 07:14] qui ne sont pas fabriquées de façon
artificielle. Donc par exemple alors après à toi de voir les
85
choses parce que moi je sais que quand j'ai appris l'anglais à
mon époque tout était fabriqué,[07:14 - 07:25] et ça m'a pas
empêché d'apprendre à parler anglais .Mais là il faut
absolument que quand on entend, quand les enfants par
exemple entendent un dialogue ou qu'ils voient une
vidéo[07:27 - 07:39] il faut que ce soit une ressource
authentique. Donc par exemple, si je fais CBS morning news
Il faut que ce soit un extrait, Il faut qu'il soit vraiment en
situation réelle d'apprentissage. [07:39 - 07:52] Mais voilà
par exemple…
R: Oui je suis d'accord. C'est difficile de trouver des choses
authentiques qui démontrent cet aspect interculturel de
l'anglais.[07:53 - 08:05] Mais c'est possible, vouz pouvez
montrer un video avec un allemand qui parle anglais avec un
italien dans tel context.
P1: Oui mais alors si on le fait c'est très exceptionnel.
R: [08:06 - 08:17] C'est pas des grands médias. Ça va être
des médias moins connus.
P1: Par exemple je pense qu'on peut trouver ça… Par
exemple là j'ai pensé parce que je voulais faire une
thématique sur les JO… je pense que si aujourd'hui[08:17 08:28] on fait un micro-trottoir à Paris en anglais on va avoir
toute forme d'accent, le problème c'est que ca passe pas
parce que si c'est un allemand qui parle, on va avoir un
accent allemand
R: [08:28 - 08:41] Il faut montrer qu'il y a plein de monde, qui
parle anglais avec des accents différents. C'est tout à fait
normal.
P1: Et franchement je pense que vous allez avoir du
mal,[08:42 - 08:53] parce que je pense que tous les profs…
R: C'est pas le but de convaincre les gens. C‟est ce que je
pense. C'est pas de tout ça.
P1: Je suis d‟accord avec vous, mais il se trouve que
l'enseignement ____? [08:53 - 09:05] Et vous regardez dans
le programme l'aspect culturel et authentique est hyper
important. Et on nous incite vraiment à élargir au
maximum[09:07 - 09:18] la familiarisation de l'oreille avec un
maximum d'accents, mais d'accents anglophones. C'est à
dire l'accent indien, Africain etc mais natif[09:18 - 09:29] Il
faut que le pays soit anglophone et c'est pareil pour les cours
d'italien.
R: Pour moi c'est contradictoire avec le CECRL. Les cours
d'anglais[09:30 - 09:41] sont basés sur le CECRL qui fait
énormément partie de cette européenisation de la France, et
les pays européens..[09:41 - 09:53] Il n‟y a meme pas
l‟Angleterre Maintenant!
P1: Je vais vous donner un exemple. Moi j'adore les langues.
Je suis en train d'apprendre l'italien et j'adore les cours
d'italien. Je prends des cours d'italien depuis le mois de
septembre.[09:54 - 10:07] Et, je vais changer de prof parce
qu'elle est française, et moi ce que je recherche en prenant
des cours d'italien c'est que j'aimerai a la fin de l'année etre
capable de dire des choses.[10:07 - 10:19] Comme “echo” et
des choses comme ça. Et le problème c'est que je n'ai pas
cette sonorité. Je sais très bien qu'elle n'est pas native. Je ne
suis pas native anglaise[10:19 - 10:31] et je sais que je
prêche contre ma paroisse, mais moi je préférerais que la
personne qui m'apprenne l'italien me fasse écouter des vrais
enregistrements,[10:31 - 10:42] avec des vrais italiens qui
sont en train de parler à Rome parce que mon but c'est
d'essayer, c'est d'entendre au moins deux heures par
semaine, d'être exposée[10:43 - 10:54] À une langue
authentique parce que de toute façon l'accent français je vais
l'avoir et si je parle avec une allemande en italien elle aura
son accent allemand et j'aurai mon accent français.[10:54 11:04] Mais essayer d'entendre un maximum d'authenticité
parce que sinon on ne fait pas en fait. C'est faire de la classe
un espace[11:06 - 11:18] où on sait que pendant deux
heures ce qu'on va entendre c'est authentique.
Se
questionner sur l‟intonation, un flow, un debit…Voilà moi, je
sais que ça me frustre[11:18 - 11:31] de ne pas entendre
plus d'italien dans les cours d'italien sur mes deux heures de
cours d'italien. On entend un enregistrement de deux
minutes. Pour moi ce n'est pas assez et je préférerais
entendre plus.[11:32 - 11:42] Et en fait, en France dans les
écoles françaises le prof est considéré comme le moyen
qui[11:43 - 11:56] favorise l'exposition des enfants au un…
une langue aussi authentique que possible, mais variée.
C'est à dire que écossais, irlandais on peut tout faire
n'importe quel pays.[11:56 - 12:08] Mais il faut que ce soit en
plus que ça s'appuie sur de vraies références culturelles. Par
exemple la Saint Patrick, là typiquement en sixième. Pour la
Saint Patrick je leur ai montré un truc sur Dublin avec des
petits gamins irlandais.[12:10 - 12:23] Qui parlaient de ça.
Diwali on prend des indiens qui parlent... Enfin voilà c'est ça.
C'est la personne concernée par un fait culturel,[12:23 12:35] qui s'exprime dans sa langue maternelle pour
partager ce fait culturel… Et voilà après moi je pense que
L'histoire de l'interculturalité[12:35 - 12:43] c'est plus par
exemple sur quand on a des examens comme Le TOEIC, le
Cambridge Et tout ça c'est plus ça, c‟est des situations,
plus[12:51 - 13:02] un besoin de s'exprimer, se dire “où est
ma valise” “A quelle heure on arrive” Ca c'est vrai que…
R: Là c'est très fonctionnel
P1: On a peut-être… Voilà, peut-être que c'est plus ça.[13:02
- 13:15] Mais c'est intéressant, je ne m'étais jamais posé la
question sur ce qu'on me posait.
R: Un autre grand aspect de l'interculturel c‟est on réfléchit
de notre propre culture[13:15 - 13:26] en même temps qu‟on
decentre nos avis, ce qu'on pense, c'est quoi notre culture?
Comment les autres le voient ? Comment on voit les autres ?
P1: [13:26 - 13:39] En fait, votre questionnement me fait
penser au questionnement que j'avais quand j'étais étudiante
en Angleterre par exemple, ou quand j'étais professeur[13:39
- 13:49] de français langue étrangère. Votre questionnement
c'est plus le questionnement du prof d'anglais langue
seconde. C'est à dire que prof d‟anglais, mais dans un
groupe intercultural.[13:51 - 14:01] Ces questionnements là
on les a quand par exemple à l'Alliance française ou quand
on est prof de français langue étrangère. On se retrouve
avec un groupe, il y a un chinois, un japonais, deux
américains.
R: [14:02 - 14:13] Ça c'est l'idéal pour l'apprentissage de
langue mais il faut… Je ne peux pas dire il faut, mais je
pense même avec[14:13 - 14:25] une classe de 40 français
on peut essayer de créer le même type d'environnement
interculturel meme entre eux parce que moi j'ai donné des
cours[14:25 - 14:37] avec que des français dans mes
classes. Je sais, est-ce que vous trouvez des différences
entre vous aussi? Parce que
P1: Mais entre vous c'est à dire?[14:37 - 14:48] Par rapport à
leur culture?
R: Oui Oui
P1: Mais il est très fréquent de ne pas avoir d'interculturalité
R: Ça peut être des choses petites.
P1: [14:49 - 15:01] Alors il y a un autre problem, qu‟il faut
aussi j‟aborde? C'est qu'on a pas le droit de trop faire appel
au parcours personnel de l'école. Parce que, dans une
classe de 30 enfants on ne peut pas le savoir [15:01 - 15:14]
s‟il y a des enfants adoptés, des parents divorcés. Il y a des
enfants dont les parents sont morts, il y a des enfants … et
on a pas le droit de poser des questions frontales et faire
appel à la culture d'un enfant. [15:14 - 15:26] On ne peut pas
le faire. On ne peut pas dire “bah tiens, tu as un nom de
famille italien, parle nous de ta culture”. C'est trop
stigmatisant et souvent [15:26 - 15:39] Ça fait appel à des
mécanismes psychologiques qui font que ________ la
famille je ne fais pas faire aux enfants leur propre arbre
généalogique. Mais je prends par exemple [15:39 - 15:50] la
famille d'Angleterre ou n'importe quoi parce que pour un
86
enfant ça peut être extrêmement douloureux d'avoir à faire
son arbre généalogique et on ne le fait pas en fait. Donc
R: [15:50 - 16:02] Ça c'est une direction ?
P1: Ah oui c'est une direction. On ne peut pas le faire parce
que ça fait appel à des choses.[16:02 - 16:14] C'est trop
personnel en fait c'est trop personnel et c'est pour ça que la
démarche n'est pas la même quand on a un groupe
d'étudiants étrangers qui est là[16:14 - 16:26] comme un
groupe de français italiens, espagnols et tout ça, qui vont à
Londres prendre des cours anglais et tout ça. Mais là en fait
on est à l'école, et tu le sais l'école,[16:26 - 16:36] l'éducation
nationale en France c'est une énorme machine. C'est très
codifié et dans une classe tu ne peux pas… enfin moi je te
donne un exemple j'ai une classe où il y a un petit qui est
arménien[16:38 - 16:50] arménien, italien, j'ai deux enfants
qui ont été adoptés qui sont asiatiques. J'ai un enfant russe
etc mais ça ne me viendrait pas à l'idée en fait je pense que
j'aurais des problèmes si je le faisais de dire ah vas-y parle
nous. [16:50 - 17:02] Il y a des enfants qui ont envie de le
faire dans ce cas ils disent ouais je peux faire un exposé sur
la Russie, ouais super fais un exposé sur la Russie mais par
contre moi je ne peux pas dire tiens toi tu t'appelles
Tapoutian parle nous de l'Arménie.[17:02 - 17:15] C'est pas
possible de faire ça c'est hyper stigmatisant. C'est
intéressant parce que le problème de l'interculturalité,
finalement ça peut pas trop coller dans un cursus[17:15 17:27] Tu vois c'est intéressant parce que ça peut pas
marcher avec l'idée d'une classe Française
R: Quand vous dites que c'est une direction ça vient d'où
exactement?
P1: [17:29 - 17:40] Bah je pense que c'est ce qu'on ça vient
du ministère. Alors je pense que c'est aussi le fait de
psychologues qui ont des conseils de faire aussi.[17:40 17:52] Et puis aussi c'est la conception de la classe et de
l'école Française qui est un endroit qui justement
Fédère[17:52 - 18:03] En fait on fournit un enseignement
commun à toute une classe qui n'a pas forcément de
singularité culturelle.
P1: Qui reste commun. Qui reste commun. Oui.
P1: [18:03 - 18:15] Et c'est la valeur principale de l'éducation
nationale donc c'est ça aussi. C'est que tu vois par exemple
là je peux te dire qu'aujourd'hui tous les élèves de
terminale,[18:15 - 18:26] tous les enfants de 18 ans
aujourd'hui apprennent l'anglais et connaissent le mot
dystopie et connaissent “1984”. En fait c'est national,
l'éducation nationale c'est national.[18:27 - 18:40] Et voilà et
c'est vrai que tu vois en te parlant je me rends compte que
non on ne peut pas demander à un enfant frontalement de se
positionner par rapport à sa famille, par rapport à sa propre
culture.[18:41 - 18:53] Dans le groupe c'est pas possible et
notamment l'exemple de l'arbre généalogique c'est très
révélateur parce que tu ne peux pas faire ça et tu ne peux
pas non plus dire tiens parle nous parce qu'en plus[18:53 19:04] il n'y a pas assez de diversité. Il n'y a pas non plus
une diversité à ce point là et même si il y en avait une le but
c'est pas que chacun parle de son échange de son
experience [19:04 - 19:17] C'est que on donne l'expérience
anglo-saxonne après ils réagissent. Mais ils réagissent en
tant que membre de la Fra- En tant que [19:18 - 19:30]
Membre du collège unique. En fait c'est ça et c'est très très
intéressant la question que tu poses tu vois la preuve c'est
que c'est en parlant que je me rends compte de tout ça mais
c'est vrai que [19:32 - 19:44] c'est très rigide. En fait à la fois
on a une liberté d'enseignement sur ce qu'on fait mais il y a
un cadre de fonctionnement [19:44 - 19:57] qui est le garant
de l'éducation nationale qui lui est très rigide. Voilà.
R: Je pense que c'est très bien si on termine comme ça,
même si ce que vous dites [19:57 - 20:02] c'est très très
intéressant, et pour moi d'avoir cette perspective dans
l'enseignement, dans le système…
Notes




P1 is a good example of the “French Syndrome”
where language is viewed only being relevant if
spoken my native speakers. While P1 sees the
value of intercultural communication (her final
tasks are all IC related) she believes ELF shouldn‟t
be taught as finding text based content is too
difficult.
P1 is contradictory.
P1 talks about how she doesn‟t believe students
should speak about their own culture in the
classroom, and should only react to other cultures.
P1 talks about the pressures within the system and
the way she is restricted in terms of time but she
can teach practically anything due to the flexible
nature of the Programme nationale. However, ELF
content is not allowed in her opnion.
Participant 2
This interview was recorded on April 16, 2024 in Bordeaux,
France.
R = Researcher
P2 = Participant 2
Introduction
Participant 2 is a high school English teacher in Bordeaux,
France.
R: [00:06 - 00:18] (In French) Nice to meet you.. Thank you
for coming.
P2: You're welcome.
R:It's very nice.
P2: No, no, no.
R: Honestly, I thank you.
P2: [00:18 - 00:31] Are you doing a dissertation? ...
R: That's it. I‟m doing a dissertation at l‟INSPE de Bordeaux.
P2: Okay.
R: I'm Australian, but it's been four years now in France.
[00:32 - 00:44] I was an English teacher for four years, but I
decided to ... to deepen my skills as a teacher, etc.
P2: Okay.
R: That's why I did a master's degree.[00:46 - 00:59] And so,
yes, it's in the context of English teaching at the college level,
especially.
P2: Okay. But ... I'm in high school. But it doesn't make a big
difference. It's okay.
R: [01:00 - 01:11] Yeah. That's it. Okay. So it's very good.
P2: And you know ... Yes. So, you met Hervé because he's
doing this master's degree too, right?
R: Yes. That's it. We are classmates.
P2: [01:12 - 01:24] Okay. It works. He too. Hervé works in my
wife's school.
R: Yes. That's it. I met your wife once.
P2 Ah, okay.
R: [01:24 - 01:36] Because we went to [his] school once.
P2: Ah, okay. All right. Yes, that's right. That's how ... She
told me, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it.
R: I gave you my number and that's it.
P2: Perfect. Perfect. Perfect. So ...
87
R: [01:37 - 01:49] Yes, so I'm going to start ... It's registered
because of ...... It's a transcription.
P2: Okay. No problem. We do it in French and in English
what you prefer?
R: [01:50 - 02:00] What do you prefer?
P2: It's up to you, really. The ...
R: The transcription is easier in English because ...
P2: [02:00 - 02:11] So we try to do it in English, then.
R: I did one yesterday. Sometimes I have to re-listen like five
times just to get the right words. So we'll mix the two.
P2: [02:11 - 02:19] if you want if you like yeah of course we
can start like that
R: So perhaps just to start you[02:19 - 02:30] can present
yourself and maybe your current role
P2: So I'm Gregory, so I've been I've been teaching[02:30 02:37] in a high school in the center of Bordeaux which is
called Magendi for… for the last two years[02:37 - 02:47] but
I've been teaching in another high school for let's say 15
years which is a[02:47 - 02:58] …high school which is close
to um the station.
R: Okay
P2: Which is called Eiffel okay and before that[03:00 - 03:07]
I used to be a substitute teacher, been a substitute teacher
for 10 years [03:07 - 03:14] and that's it yeah right and so my
role in so I used to teach [03:15 - 03:27] second premiere
terminale, plus BTS that's why…. you know what BTS is?
R: Yeah, yeah i did a bit of BTS.
P2: But now now i'm mainly focused on a second premiere
R: [03:29 - 03:38] It's in the public system?
P2: Yeah exactly yeah public.
R: There's a high school right here in the center of Bordeaux
?
P2: [03:38 - 03:47] yeah which is very close to uh les
boulevards, yeah so it would be…[03:47 - 03:55] close to
Saint Genes
R: It's not the same as Lycee Saint Genes ?
P2: Saint Genes is a private one
R: [03:55 - 04:01] okay
P2: So that would be the big public one
R: That's… I spoke to a teacher teaching there yesterday
P2: All right sure
R: [04:02 - 04:11] Okay okay perfect and so about 12 13
years as a high school teacher is that?
P2: [04:12 - 04:16] As a high school teacher i would say 25
years now okay 25 years [04:16 - 04:25] yeah and [I am} in
my you know very late 40s yeah, and 49, so all right.
R: Yeah yeah perfect and what's…[04:27 - 04:38] Tt's pretty
difficult to summarize but what's your overall experience or
teaching English in France?
P2: It's been a very positive one. It's been very
positive.[04:39 - 04:50] I really like to socialize with people in
general, and teenagers in particular. I like teaching.[04:51 05:02] I think I've been learning my… trade skills quite
quickly as I was a substitute teacher.[05:03 - 05:15] So the
mistakes you make, you tend to move on and forget about
them very quickly. You learn very quickly.[05:15 - 05:28] I
used to teach in very, I would say, in difficult suburbs. And
now I‟m in the old... {05:28 - 05:34] old... more experienced,
and I teach in the center of Bordeaux.[05:34 - 05:47] So I
would say that it does make a very big difference as far as
the kids are concerned.[05:48 - 05:54] I suppose you would
say that they come from a very...[06:05 - 06:13] very... their
social background is...
R: Is more advantageous.
P2: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
R: [06:14 - 06:25] Much more wealthy families, I suppose.
P2: Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, well, that's it. I've been... It's all
been very... [06:25 - 06:36] very positive as far as the
students are concerned. Sometimes more difficult with the
colleagues, but I suppose it's not... That's a new...
R: [06:36 - 06:49] It's not very different from any job, really.
P2: Yeah, exactly. And... Yeah. Yeah. It's great.
R: It's great to have a positive experience. And what changes
have you seen over 25 years?
P2: [06:49 - 06:58] Ah, well, the internet. Yeah. The internet.
R: As a teaching resource?
P2: Yeah, as a teaching resource, and... [06:59 - 07:08] Well,
I've been teaching for 25 years, so I suppose that... Yeah, I
would say... [07:08 - 07:16] I would say the internet has been
a technological breakthrough. So... So that...[07:16 - 07:22] I
used to be surrounded with dictionaries, for example, and
there was nothing up to [07:22 - 07:29] date as far as themes
were concerned, and now you can find anything you want on
the internet. [07:34 - 07:44] You know, I've been teaching
BTS for 15 years, so that means, I don't know, it could be
anything, [07:44 - 07:50] accounting, it could be
maintenance, so that's the big difference. [07:50 - 08:03]
Being able to find a video on YouTube and work on it, and
something that has not, you know, been specifically designed
for students, but for professionals. [08:04 - 08:14] So as far
as vocational English is concerned, the internet has made a
big, big, big difference. So I think that would be the main
difference. [08:14 - 08:23] The main difference nowadays
would be AI, obviously. I mean, that means that everything is
changing. [08:23 - 08:35] I mean, you can't tell your students
to do anything at home now, really. Well, if you want to
assess it, it's irrelevant. [08:35 - 08:47] It's impossible right
now because you don't know what you're marking, really.
That would be the big difference. The students haven't
changed, really. [08:47 - 08:54] We might think they have,
but no. I'm still the same teacher. [08:55 - 09:07] I was 25
years ago and the kids are still the same, but the way we
approach the language is quite different now, thanks to the
internet, I think.
R: [09:07 - 09:20] It's a huge difference.
P2: Yes, a huge difference.
R: What you have accessible to you as a teacher. Yeah. I
mean. Just opened everything to us, didn't it?
P2: [09:21 - 09:33] Absolutely.
R: And what about institutions surrounding you and
Education Nationale in France and its approach to
languages? [09:34 - 09:44] Do you feel like it's affected you
as a teacher or you feel like you're pretty much free to do
what you like? Or...
P2: [09:46 - 09:53] On the one hand, I'm pretty free to do
what I like, which is very positive. [09:55 - 10:03] I mean, we
share, obviously, common values with other teachers and
what we have. [10:05 - 10:14] What we intend to do is, you
know, teaching kids. I mean, not only... Not only... [10:14 10:29] Not only acquiring some, you know, knowledge, but
also to educate students, so this hasn't changed. [10:29 10:42] But what has really changed is the fact that we're
alone. I mean, we are individuals in a system, but we are
isolated. [10:42 - 10:54] Yeah. We're alone.
R: So it wasn't always like that?
P2: I haven't seen... For example, just to give you an
example, I've been teaching for 25 years and I've had...
[10:55 - 11:08] I've only seen, I think, what we call an
inspector once in my career. Just to give you... To give you...
An idea of the...
R: [11:08 - 11:20] I think Herve told me something similar.
P2: Of the contempt we feel... From... From the institutions.
I've only... I've only seen... I've only seen a guy... A woman
once. [11:21 - 11:33] And... It took her... It took her three
weeks to find the little college I was teaching in the middle of
nowhere. And...
R: She tracked you down.
P2: She... [11:33 - 11:44] She tracked me down. And she
cancelled the appointment twice. Which... Which you can
imagine for a young teacher was a lot of pressure, and that's
88
the only... [11:44 - 11:55] The only contact I've had with the
institution for 25 years. So it's... It gives you... It's quite
amazing when you think of it. [11:56 - 12:09] No contact
whatsoever with the institutions.
R; Yeah. Which are ultimately your employer as well.
P2: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's... That's...
R: [12:09 - 12:16] Yeah. So a lack of... A lack of... A lack of
support and a lack of... [12:16 - 12:26] I mean, it also equates
to lack of control over teachers and what they're doing as
well?
P2: Yeah. I suppose so. I suppose so. [12:30 - 12:38] Yeah. I
mean,
R: Why do you find... ?
P2: Yeah. Because there are all sorts of teachers and you
have to find the resources yourself and [12:39 - 12:52] you
have to, you know, keep the will to teach and yeah, I don't
know how to put it but that's... [12:52 - 13:05] That certainly is
the main issue with the education system.
R: Yeah. There's certainly a lot more liberty given to teachers
in France compared to Australia where I'm from. [13:05 13:17] It's a massive difference. So... So for you as a
teacher, you can choose essentially the content that you
teach, right?
P2: Yeah, to some extent.
R: To some extent?
P2: [13:18 - 13:28] Yeah. Yeah.
R: Okay. So what limitations are there?
P2: I would say that the limitations are the final exam. Okay?
[13:32 - 13:43] But now that the baccalaureate has changed,
I can do.... You can do more or less anything you want, apart
from teaching specialties [13:44 - 13:52] you know? Where
you have that particular exam, you have to conform to. [13:52
- 14:04] Otherwise, when you're teaching terminale, seconde
and terminale, for example, seconde, première terminale,
and it's not one of the... [14:04 - 14:16] We call them
specialty classes. Yeah. And then you can do anything you
like, because it's based on the control continue, you know?
So that means you're in charge. [14:16 - 14:19] You're in
charge.
R: So how do you...
P2: And... [14:21 - 14:34] Well, there is a framework, you
know, given by the institutions, and you may pick any[14:34 14:45] ideas from that.
R: It's very open to... Yeah. It's very open to interpretation,
really, isn't it?
P2: Yeah. And it's, you know, it's very French, and
it's...[14:45 - 14:57] You have topics, themes, right? And then
you can choose whatever you like from these.
R: So how do you decide what you teach?
P2: [14:57 - 15:06] How do I decide what I teach? Y
R: Yeah. Do you get inspired by the material you find, or do
you conceptualize? [15:07 - 15:20] Do you think you come up
with things and then find material to support it? What's the
process?
P2: Well, yeah. I suppose so. I suppose so. Herve told me
that you are interested in textbooks?
R: Absolutely. That's what...[15:20 - 15:32] Yeah, we're
gonna talk about that.
P2: All right. So yeah. So for example, I would open one,
open it, maybe see what my colleagues are... [15:32 - 15:44]
Are working on, or... And then you look... Look, for example, I
would… so this would be you know about artificial limbs
(points at textbook) and so there's, anyone can get one
so…[15:49 - 15:52] Also the future so it's always pros and
cons. I would say well yeah that could be interesting… there
are…[16:04 - 16:16] Big things and so I would start Looking
for material and videos on YouTube and then… and
then[16:18 - 16:23] I would start thinking…[16:25 - 16:33]
What would be the final task? Okay, so I would say what can
I do with my students so…[16:36 - 16:45] I don't know what
something I'm doing at the moment for example that could fit
would be…[16:48 - 16:56] Students with special needs. How
could I… how could I help students with special
needs?[16:59 - 17:06] Do you know that that TV program
called Dragon's den?
R: Yeah, yes.
P2: And so that for example. [17:06 - 17:15] I watched that
program in England or I don't know. So I could…[17:15 17:27] What I could do is I could make my students invent,
you know… a product and then they could start
pitching[17:29 - 17:39] for the product in front of … in front of
jury and then we could we could do that. So So yeah.[17:40 17:50] How could we… how could we help? You know
students with an artificial limb, disabled students or…[17:52 18:04] So that that would … That would you know… be… be
useful [18:04 - 18:17] and useful for the institution that maybe
some of my students will become engineers and they might
think oh, yeah we've done that in class. How could we help?
[18:17 - 18:26] I don't know… autistic students to focus or…
and they would come up with imaginary[18:28 - 18:40]
products and then and then so the first part would be, do
not… do not use the internet use your use your own mind
and[18:41 - 18:53] even if the technology hasn't been
invented yet well, make it make it look make it sound[18:54 19:06] scientific tell me how it works and then you could do a
presentation. You could do presentation in front of the class
and then the second step would be then…[19:07 - 19:15]
Let's have a look at the competition and see. I'm sure your
product has already been invented or there's another
product,[19:15 - 19:26] so now we'll have a look at the other
vocabulary and you can note down everything you like and
that will… that will help you with your English. I don't know so
yeah,
R: So you open a book, get inspired and run with it?
P2: [19:26 - 19:37] I'm getting an idea … okay but I wouldn't
use that because there are so many things and [19:38 19:48] Obviously, I mean the what… you want to talk about
the textbooks now?
R: Look we can absolutely. Yeah, it's a bit more specifically
regarding[19:50 - 20:02] the kind of cultural and intercultural
content that we find in textbooks nowadays and how… how
does that end up getting presented to the students? And how
do they…[20:02 - 20:15] because for me I'm interested in
how do we teach these students to be to be ready to interact
with other cultures because that's the goal of English.
P2: Yeah I think[20:16 - 20:26] I think we have to find a way
to get the students interested in what we're teaching.[20:30 20:36] But it has to be a way around. I don't know how to put
it.[20:37 - 20:47] For example, if we're talking about ecology,
ecology is a big thing in 2024.[20:48 - 20:57] I think that we
are all suffering from green fatigue and the more we teach it,
the less efficient it becomes.[20:58 - 21:09] So I was talking
about coming up with a technological product to help
people.[21:10 - 21:20] So I would say it's ecological. Okay? I
would say it has to be ecological. Show me why. And the kids
will say, yeah, it's got solar panels and so on.[21:22 - 21:32]
That's not what we mean by ecological. So you know, if you
want to be ecological, you have to consume less. That's what
it means, being ecological.[21:33 - 21:42] And so these
textbooks are, they are full, as far as culture is concerned, I
think they[21:42 - 21:54] are very, very pessimistic, in fact,
okay? And they've been very repetitive and pessimistic for
decades, all right?
R: [21:54 - 22:03] Pessimistic towards?
P2: I remember a time where a good teacher of English
would talk about child labour.[22:04 - 22:12] Then that would
be lynching, okay? And when you're fed up with lynching,
you would talk about the animals.[22:13 - 22:21] okay then
you're Australian then we would see how native people have
89
been[22:21 - 22:34] slaughtered and then and that goes on
and on and on and on and on and on and as far as culture is
concerned, as art is concerned you would always have the
same[22:34 - 22:42] painters okay for example and and they
would always be related to… to the[22:42 - 22:48] same
cultural so-called cultural aspects and I've always been you
know[22:48 - 22:56] disgusted by that as a… as a student
and as a teacher I've always kept that in[22:56 - 23:09] mind
and I don't want my students to have to get depressed okay
and that's… and I think that's what they are doing.
R: [23:09 - 23:19] I understood you saying that the books
they present you the negative aspects of cultureP2: Are stereotyped, you know they want[23:19 - 23:27] to
make students more open-minded [and] less biased but
they're[23:27 - 23:40] going to talk about, you know,
comparing the educational system of Australia and France
and the United States[23:43 - 23:50] Honestly, it's a...
R: What's the interest?
P2: What's the point? What's the point?[24:01 - 24:14] They
tell you what is right and what is wrong all the time. All the
time. And we as teachers, we tend to do the same.[24:14 24:18] Obviously, we are figures of authority.[24:18 - 24:39]
But I prefer, you know, more basic textbooks where I could
find something about, you know...[24:39 - 24:51] For
example, when I used to teach engineering students, I would
take things like that. (points at book) And... And...[24:51 25:00] I would teach more technical, vocational, English. And
then I could add my own things.[25:01 - 25:09] But I think
they are much more down to earth, I think. That's one way of
putting it.
R: [25:09 - 25:21] I totally understand what you mean by
textbooks can feel very preachy at times.
P2: Yeah, exactly. You know, self-righteousness
R: And... That's... Yeah. And that's what this idea of...[25:21 25:33] Of kind of what I've been researching of the... Of an
intercultural competence is actually trying to get your
students to understand that this is preaching to you. You
know, that's part of that.[25:33 - 25:41] It's understanding that
these perspectives come from this place because... What are
the reasons why? Why are they telling us this
information?[25:42 - 25:54] You know, basically teaching
students to question where their information is coming from is
a big part of that. And... You know, you can incorporate that
into your English lesson. Y
P2: Yeah. Yeah, but you have to keep in mind that you're a
figure of authority. So, you're not going to say...[26:04 26:16] You're not going to say this is a lousy textbook and...
They should be... They shouldn't be, you know, writing that in
the textbook.[26:17 - 26:29] It's better to take... If you want to
use... If you want to use part of it, you may... You and then
you do your own thing. But... So, you're...[26:31 - 26:42]
You're interested in how do we teach culture? That's what
you...
R: But it's a bit of a trap to frame it like that because that's
the...[26:42 - 26:52] That's the kind of... That's the trap, if you
like. Because often you'll see culture being taught as a list of
facts and figures.
P2: Yeah.
R: [26:53 - 27:01] Which, like you said, it's just not true. Like,
the stereotypes are stereotypes, but it's a very complex thing,
a culture.[27:01 - 27:13] And it's difficult to present it as the
complex beast that it is. And that's a bit the problem that I've
found in textbooks in France.[27:14 - 27:25] It's that it's a
very narrow... Like, a lot of the books nowadays are very
much tilted towards this cultural aspect, but a very narrow...
Narrow-minded form of it.
P2: [27:25 - 27:33] I mean, I think it's... I'm interested in
history, obviously.[27:34 - 27:44] And I think that history is
much more interesting than culture. And culture...[27:44 27:57] The way it is taught in France has nothing to do with
what we call, you know, cultural studies, for example, in
England or the States.[27:57 - 28:07] It's just, you know... It's
a simplified version of history. [28:07 - 28:25] And the way
teachers imagine students could see history is, you know, not
my thing, really. [28:25 - 28:35] But you know that as a... as
a... as a student, when you study English in France, you
have to... [28:36 - 28:42] You know, you're either a littéraire
or... [28:45 - 28:53] You have to specialize either in literature
or cultural studies, right? [28:53 - 29:01] And I've always
found that the cultural studies, [29:01 - 29:08] the way they
are taught in France, are over-simplifying things. Okay?
Yeah. [29:08 - 29:20] So, for example, for Australia, you
know, where we talk about gap year. That would be, you
know... That's the Australian... gap year. That's... That would
be... [29:20 - 29:31] That would be Australia. Okay. You
know, gap year. And we... We would... We would listen to
foreign students and their experience. And... [29:32 - 29:48]
So we would have a black American student talking about
racism and another student who [29:49 - 29:55] loves
Australia and of course the native Australians.
Part 2
The timestamps reset at 30.00
P2: (0:00) I think it would be around segregation and Native
Americans for the United States.
R: (0:14) Same thing, it's just repeated and repeated, right?
P2: (0:18) And I think you can reach any cultural goal by
doing your own thing. (0:30) You just pick an idea and then
adapt it to your personality. (0:37) Because I think that's one
of the very first things that I've learned about teaching, (0:45)
that you can't teach against yourself. (0:47) You can only
teach with the person you are.
R: (0:50) Exactly, it's so true. (0:54) And perhaps you could
speak a bit about colleagues you've had over the years.
(1:01) Do you know, you've talked about how you use
materials. (1:05) Could you talk about how certain colleagues
use materials? (1:08) How would they, if you can remember?
P2: (1:12) You mean more specifically about colleagues and
the materials they use?
R: (1:18) What do teachers value from a textbook?
P2: (1:22) From a textbook? (1:27) Well, I can tell you an
anecdote. (1:33) When a colleague of mine retired, say 10
years ago, (1:48) the head teacher from the _____ in Bistéles-Ferres, (2:03) we had a party in the staff room and a
couple of drinks. (2:12) And I remember that colleague
praising the soon-to-be-retired colleague (2:19) and saying
how incredible she was and the way she talked. (2:26) She
had been teaching all these incredible things about child
labour and things like that. (2:40) So I would say that not my
generation, but the previous generation (2:47) would have
loved to teach those things. (2:52) And they had that
impression that they were history teachers (3:02) and they
had to deal with everything bad that happened in the world.
(3:11) So I suppose that they tend to use textbooks a lot.
(3:19) In college, it used to be quite different, (3:26) because
I would say that the textbooks tended to be necessary for the
younger students. (3:36) They would give a kind of
framework, (3:41) and they would often be very adapted to
the college, (3:50) especially celebrations, Christmas,
Thanksgiving. (3:58) That's the things younger students
would expect. (4:02) Now the problem is that the older they
get, the more boring it becomes. (4:11) Because in 6ème,
everything would be new, (4:14) but then in 5ème, that would
be more or less the same textbook, (4:17) with getting into
more details, and then 4ème, and then 3ème. (4:23) And
that's the problem, because they tend to be repetitive. (4:29)
So I would say that. (4:36) On the other hand, I've been
working with a lot of other teachers (4:42) who don't
necessarily teach English. (4:47) When I used to teach
maintenance, I would work with maintenance teachers. (4:55)
So that would be great. (4:56) I loved it, because I could
teach with machines around me. (5:01) But they were very
90
surprised, (5:05) because they thought that I was the person
in charge, (5:10) and they would just stay in the computer
room, and if I needed anything, (5:15) I would say, no, no,
come on, we're going to teach together. (5:18) You don't
speak English, it doesn't matter, really. (5:20) We're going to
go, we're going to take the machines, (5:24) and pretend
we're doing things, and we're going to do things in English.
(5:31) So I found that really entertaining. (5:46) These
teachers, they relied on machines, (5:52) and they had a
great contact with the students. (5:55) We know that
everybody is working with computers now, (6:02) and this
has made a tremendous change. (6:12) So what was your
question again, about the experience of the teachers, (6:17)
and the teaching material? (6:19) It's hard to know, really.
R: (6:20) Like you said, it's a personal endeavour.
P2: (6:25) Yeah, it's a personal thing, and my colleagues
right now, (6:29) I think that none of them use textbooks,
(6:35) and they do their own things. (6:39)
R: Maybe related to the fact that, when you say high school
students, (6:44) they're not interested in a paper book. (6:48)
Whereas in college, perhaps more so, so that's interesting.
(6:52) What motivates your students then?
P2: (6:59) Well, I suppose that they're aware of the fact that
English has to be, (7:11) and you really need to have a good
command of English, (7:13) whatever you study now. (7:16)
So that's one thing. (7:20) The other thing would be their
mark, (7:24) because it's a mark-oriented institution. (7:33)
Especially since Parcours Plus, they want to have good
marks. (7:49) So that has changed a lot, (7:53) because we
think that students have always been like that. (7:59) But I
think that's something fairly new, (8:05) the fact that they
have to go through that giant algorithm, (8:09) and it creates
a lot of stress.
R: (8:13) And as a teacher, you probably have to focus more
on (8:20) achieving a grade for your students.
P2: (8:23) Yeah, as well.
R: (8:24) A general education of the language, (8:27) and just
trying to improve their language skills.
P2: (8:30) You have to take that into account. (8:35) We were
talking about the institution, (8:38) and how you feel about
the institution. (8:41) For example, the latest thing we have to
do, (8:45) we have to give that European grade to our
students, (8:53) this reference, that framework, (9:03) but we
have to do it on our own. (9:07) For example, any teacher
who wants to know (9:19) what their level in English is, (9:23)
you go through a series of questions, (9:26) you do the
TOEIC, TOEFL, whatever proficiency you want, (9:33) and
Cambridge, whatever. (9:36) And you will know immediately
what your level in English is. (9:42) But we have to tell our
students that they're either, (9:50) I think it's B2, B1, A2,
(9:57) at the end of terminal. (10:03) But it could be quite
easy to do a series of tests, (10:10) of quizzes, of questions.
(10:14) This is what an institution should do. (10:19) But on
the contrary, we're left entirely alone, (10:26) and we have to
create our own material, (10:34) and to give that certification
to the students, (10:42) which is completely worthless,
(10:44) because all the universities will ask for what is called
TOEIC. (10:52) Right, so that's one of the examples I could
give you.
R: (11:02) So, yeah, I wonder where that demand comes
from. (11:07) I do wonder if that's a Europe-wide thing,
(11:14) trying to give students at the end of their school,
(11:18) or just to compare it.
P2: (11:24) You know, “let's try and be competitive”, (11:28)
that this TOEIC can do. (11:29) “We've got all those
teachers, (11:31) those teachers, they can do it themselves.”
(11:36) How… Cambridge certificate, or whatever, (11:43) it's
very well done. (11:45) It's very well done.
R: (11:48) Very expensive, yeah.
P2: (11:49) Yeah, yeah. (11:51) So there's no national exam
for the bac. (11:56) They don't do an English exam. (11:58)
They're no longer doing it. (12:02) They used to do it, but...
(12:04)
R: It's just a teacher evaluates the students?
P2: (12:08) Exactly.
R: (12:08) That's this parcours?
P2: (12:10) Exactly, yeah. (12:12) They can do it if they
choose one of those specialties.
R: Yeah, no, it makes so much of your work (12:24) revolving
around evaluation, (12:26) instead of teaching, ultimately.
(12:30) You probably lose a lot of class time, (12:33) or hours
that you could dedicate to teaching, (12:39) to evaluation,
which is a real shame.
P2: (12:43) Yeah, I suppose so.
R: (12:48) For me, that's about all, _________. (12:50)
Thank you very much for the conversation.
P2: (12:52) You're welcome.
R: (12:54) Nice to hear your experience, (12:56) and that it's
been a positive one.
Notes



P3 is weary of cultural content in textbooks being
preachy and self righteous. For this reason he
prefers more simple textbooks which allow him to
focus his students in a more neutral direction.
He is critical of the oversimplification of culture and
history in textbooks
He is critical of the institution and feels that French
teachers are neglected.
Participant 3
Recorded on April 20, 2024 on an online video conference
platform.
R = Researcher
P3 = Participant 3
R: (0:00) Good evening, Cerise, nice to meet you. Thank you
so much for joining me today. (0:05)
P3: You're welcome.
R: Yes, how are you?
P3: I'm just home, just now.
R: You're at home, fantastic, okay. (0:16) So maybe I'll just
present what my research is, give you a bit of an idea, and
then we'll get (0:22) straight into our conversation, okay?
So I'm a student at the University of Bordeaux in France,
(0:32) but I'm actually from Australia myself, and this year
I've been researching (0:42) the way we try and teach our
students intercultural skills in a language course, (0:50)
specifically in English teaching. So how we prepare students
to speak with people from (0:58) different cultures. I mean,
it's what I'm interested in. And then I've also been looking
(1:04) at how do textbooks and how do other materials help
teachers achieve that. And so that's (1:13) kind of the basics
of my research this year. And so for my dissertation, I'm
interviewing (1:23) teachers from different countries, as well
as French teachers, to create a kind of comparison (1:30) in
what teachers are thinking about these topics. So there you
go. Maybe you could start by (1:40) presenting yourself, what
you do, what is your job at the moment, and your teaching
experience.
P3: (1:52) Actually, my name is Cherry. I just, yeah, it's just a
French name I use.
R: (1:59) Yes, it is. Cerise. Yeah, for Cherry.
91
P3: Okay, perfect. Yeah. (2:05) I've been, like, for 10 years,
I've been teaching English. I started teaching, like, in 2013.
(2:14) I started out teaching with volunteer progress. I mean,
the process is started from the monitoring. (2:22) I started out
teaching to very young kids, not very young kids, young
learners. They didn't (2:30) have to pay for the tuition. So I
just went there and I taught there.
That's how I started. (2:37) And it's been, like, 10 years. So
exactly about the textbook, before we talked about your main
(2:46) things, about your research, I started out teaching in
the government schools. So the (2:54) textbooks and the
things that we used are made by the government education,
the Ministry of (3:00) Education from the government. So that
is not really, not very updated, not very modernized, (3:06) in
fact. Yeah, it's just really late.
But after that, I just transferred to the international (3:14)
schools. And I found that a lot of things, a lot of progression
and improvements is happening in (3:20) international
schools and curricula. And it's really different from the
government schools (3:25) education and also the
international school education.
And the good thing is we are just (3:32) taking the reference
from the books that we could get from the international
courses, like, (3:36) from Australia, like, from Singapore,
English, and also from... Actually, the main course that (3:43)
we're using is from Cambridge and also from Oxford. And
some of the international schools use (3:49) the Clint and
also some use Macmillan. And some use, like, some use,
like, the Elton from (3:59) Singapore.
So that is different. That is really different from the different
(4:06) school. But the school that I am currently teaching, it's
been, like, for four years, (4:13) over four years that I've been
teaching international, at international school. And (4:18) I'm
teaching international science and international English. So
yeah, that's great.
R: (4:24) I mean, that's the name of the subject, international
English?
P3: (4:29) It's Cambridge, Cambridge English.
R: (4:32) Yeah. Okay. So what's, what's the, what's the
textbook that they give you?
P3: (4:37) They give us the Cambridge Global English.
R: (4:41) Okay. Yeah. So that's really interesting how, in your
country...
P3: (4:47) Would you like to see that book?
R: (4:48) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why not? Why not? Sure. Yeah.
P3: (4:51) Okay. Just give me a second.
R: (4:53) Oh, I mean, it's not, it's not super important. I can
look it up later.
P3: (4:57) Okay. Okay. So it's Cambridge Global English.
R: (5:01) Cambridge Corporate English, did you say?
P3: (5:05) Global English. Global English. (5:06) Cambridge
Global English.
R: Okay. Yeah. That's, that's really interesting because,
(5:13) well, you mentioned, you mentioned that in the, in the
public system that the government, (5:21) so that there's no
choice as a teacher. Is that right? You can only use what the
government gives (5:26) you. And can you describe a little bit
what those books look like and what kind of content you can
(5:33) find in them?
P3: (5:35) Of course. You mean for the government
curriculum? (5:39) Yeah. (5:39) Okay. The books are exactly
look like the ones that is made from, you know, (5:46) just
home-based printing things. They [government books] really
are low quality things. (5:51) In our country. I don't know
about the other countries, (5:53) but in our country it is really
low quality for printing kind of things like that. And also, (6:00)
before 2015, it was really a very old-fashioned one because it
was never updated. It was never (6:11) modernized. It was
never looked back to do the better things. So the lessons and
the curriculum, (6:18) all of the contexts were just built up.
There's like, there's like 30 years ago, (6:25) they still use
that thing. So in 2015, there were some changes in the
government systems (6:30) and they changed some
education and they promoted some of the things. So in that
case, (6:35) there is a nice thing about that because the
Ministry of Education, they just changed a letter (6:41) and it
is a letter qualified, a letter qualified for the government
school education. So they used (6:49) the curriculum, like for
example, for the primary, they used, okay, let me just tell you
one thing. (6:57) They just used some of the skills, only the
reading skills and also writing skills for (7:05) English.
They just made only the productive skills, not the receptive
skills. So it's just (7:10) only reading skill and writing skill
only, not the listening skills and speaking skill in English.
(7:15) But after 2017 and 2016, they just put up like listening
skills and also the speaking skills (7:22) in the books.
So a little better.
R: Yes. Okay.Yeah. I mean, (7:27) it's good they updated it
after so long. A little better. (7:30) So now 2024, you said it's
more updated, more in the communicative method that we
see all around (7:41) the world right now in language
teaching is this idea of language is communication first and
foremost. (7:48) So productive skills are super important. And
what about how is culture presented in these books? (7:56)
and intercultural skills where does it, do they, do the books
allow students to develop (8:05) their intercultural skills,
would you say?
P3: Well, that thing, I think, I don't know about (8:12) the
other countries, but our country is just kind of very
stereotyped people. Sorry to say that. (8:20) But people, a lot
of people just making things only thinking in the box. So for
English, (8:30) mostly in the government text, mostly they
never focus on the intercultural things. (8:35) They just focus
on the grammar patterns and also the vocabularies, new
vocabularies, (8:39) how we are going to use this one and
how that means, not how to apply the words, (8:44) just only
to understand the meaning of the word and the grammar
patterns and also how to take the (8:51) exam with the grade
marks. That's how they think. Also the teachers, they just did
the things in a (8:58) very old fashioned ways. Maybe they
didn't have enough things to get, you know, our country is
(9:04) not very developed, so they didn't have enough
chance to do the things to promote the student (9:10) skills.
So…mostly the teachers had to focus on to finish the
curriculum. They didn't have time to (9:18) give the lesson
about the culture and the text, the culture in the story. They
didn't have enough (9:24) time to give the message, the main
thing about the story or the text. So the student didn't know
how (9:31) to take the core of the things, take the core of the
lesson. They never know how to make the (9:38) crucial
things about the story. Not about the intercultural, that is
really too far to talk about (9:43) it in our country. So they
just, the only thing that they did is just take in the
vocabularies (9:48) and the grammar and writing skills and
reading skills, how to answer the reading passage, (9:53) you
know, just like those things. But I just noticed about a lot of
things about the difference between (10:00) the international
schools and the government school because students got a
lot of practice, (10:06) a lot of practice about thinking for the
idea. Rather than about (10:14) writing skills, rather than
about the skills, they just focus on mostly on thinking. (10:20)
And also the teacher also just got the idea or eliciting. Before
that, the older days, we just, (10:28) mostly the teachers just
give the lesson. Here we are going to the lesson, we are
going to teach (10:33) the lesson, you're going to learn this
one. So these days, the teachers now just know how to
(10:39) elicit, how to take out the things and ideas from the
students and how to make the students get the (10:44) ideas
of thinking. That is a great progression, I guess. So now
that's a lot better.
92
R: (10:50) Yeah, that's super interesting. And that's in the
international schools, is it?
P3: (10:56) Yeah, because I'm not working for the
government school anymore.So I don't know about the
(11:00) teachers there.
R: (11:01) Yeah, yeah, right. And so just to compare, so
maybe the textbooks that are given to you (11:10) at the
international schools, how do they compare to the
government books?
P3: (11:18) To be honest, the founders are the business men
and business women. So some of them are not even (11:27)
from the education field. So they don't know anything about
the education and the differences (11:32) between the
government school and the international school and the
things that (11:35) is happening in the school, exactly. So the
only thing that they know is to get money from the (11:41)
students. And to get money, the things that they think about
is how to make the competence, (11:48) they want to make it
competitive from the schools to the others, because there are
a lot of (11:53) international schools in our country now after
the coup. You know there was a coup in our country, right?
R: (11:58) Yeah, yeah.
P3: (11:59) Yeah, after the coup, there were a lot of
international schools and they are just (12:02) trying to make
the competitive about the schools. So they bought any
famous text, (12:10) well-known text, most used text to get
more men. They don't have any differences, they don't have
(12:18) any analysis things or anything about that. They just
don't. The only thing that they do is just (12:23) how to get
money from the students. So they would just buy the books
and they would just give it to (12:28) the teachers. They don't
have any educational competence. They would just give it to
you and (12:32) make you teach. That's it. That's all they do.
But we just, yeah, we just always compare because we
(12:38) have so many students from the other different
international schools. So we always have to (12:42) compare
about that. Hello? Hello? (12:50) Hello.
YR: eah, I'm here. I'm here.
P3: (12:52) Yeah. And that's the connection.
R: (12:56) Okay. And at the international schools, do you
have a choice of what you can teach with? (13:02) Can you
use other materials or?
P3: (13:04) Exactly. You can choose it.
R: (13:06) Okay. And so what for you, what is a good
teaching material in your case, (13:13) for your style of
teaching? What do you like to, what do you like to teach
with?
P3: (13:21) For the rich schools, they use the iQBoard and
they use some of the materials that are really (13:27)
accelerated. But all the materials, I like all. I like the iQBoard.
I like every, any kind of (13:36) materials that can make my
students get more comprehensive skills. And I like any kind
of (13:44) material for that one. I don't have any questions for
that because I have taught them with a very (13:47)_____?,
with a chalkboard. I have taught with any, in any kind of
situation.
So I don't have (13:55) any opt for that.
R: Yeah. Okay.And if you, if you give your students a text to
read or maybe a video (14:03) to watch, do you do that kind
of teaching as well?
P3: Yeah. Yeah. Of course we do that a lot of time.(14:11) I
teach English, but I show them, I just hold them and look at
the videos. (14:17) Yeah. That is related to the lesson.
R: Yeah. Okay. So what kind of videos and texts do you like
to (14:23) present in class?
P3: Mostly I have to teach them about the things that is, that
happens around (14:30) the world. So for example, like I, I
have to teach English, but it is all based on natural disasters.
(14:37) So I show them about the natural disasters that
happens in the world. (14:43) If it is about the animals, so I
show the videos about the animals. That's it. Just mostly the
(14:50) videos related to the lesson.
R: Right. Okay. So the, a general theme of the lesson might
be (14:57) natural disasters or animals or holidays or
whatever. And then you will choose a video (15:04) based on
that, right?
P3: Yes. I choose a video related to that.
R: Yeah. And is it, is there an (15:10) idea behind it about
saying, about presenting other cultures and exposing other
types of (15:18) people and ways of living to your students?
P3: Of course. Sure. We do those things too, (15:25)
because we have the international day. So before we
celebrate any kind of celebration, we have to, (15:31) we
always have to share with us about the, the cultures, the
different cultures, the diversity, (15:36) the diversities of the
cultures. And students are really, really interested in it. And
I'm (15:42) really glad about that because they always are
very active to take part in it. They are, (15:48) they're very
active to participate in it. So we discuss about the cultures,
we discuss about (15:53) the countries and the nations.
Yeah. So we do that.
R: Yeah. Great. And so in France, (16:01) when they do that,
it's very focused on the Anglophone world. So only English
speaking (16:08) countries are kind of talked about in English
class. Is that the same in Myanmar? You talk about (16:16)
all countries or only English speaking countries?
P3: All countries, like (16:24) all Asians, Africans, all
countries right around the world. Yeah.
R: Okay. And so that's, I mean, (16:32) for me, I think that's
really important because there's more non-native speakers of
English than (16:38) native speakers, right? So this is
something I like to show my students, you know, I think it's
(16:45) really important they understand that. In fact, there
are more non-native speakers of English (16:51) than native
speakers. So I think that's a good thing that you're doing for
sure.
P3: (16:59) We just focused on talking about the other
countries and the culture of these other (17:05) countries
because we want them to get more vocabulary that are used
to describe about (17:12) their culture. So they get more
vocabulary for that. Yeah. And that is the first thing.
R: (17:18) A big part of the intercultural, right? And when we
say intercultural, it's about the two-way (17:27) relationship
between two cultures. And a big part of that is also kind of
trying to understand your (17:35) own culture and your own
self. And is that something that is maybe done in English
class (17:41) in your country?
P3: Yeah, definitely. We always do the things like that. That
is really interesting (17:48) because whenever we have to
present about the culture of the different countries, we
always (17:54) have to do, I don't know about the other
teachers, but I always let them compare. And I always let
(18:02) them think of how we all do the things for this title.
Yeah. For example, like the celebration (18:09) in another
country, how do we also do this in our country? We always
discuss about that. (18:17) That is the thing that we do. And
also the children, they are always interested in it.
R: (18:21) Yeah, great. So what age of student do you
teach?
P3: I teach from like around 12 to 16.
R: (18:31) And what do you find motivates them the most to
learn English?
P3: (18:43) Well, mostly that is YouTuber. YouTubers. They
just really, yeah, they just really love YouTubers. (18:52)
Some of them like to be the YouTubers. So they even sound
like a YouTuber when they are speaking (18:58) in English.
So they want to be the YouTuber. Some of them wants to be
like the presenters (19:05) or the announcers. So they like
speaking English. They like using English a lot. (19:13) My
students love speaking English a lot. So they like learning
93
English, but they don't like grammar. (19:20) Obviously, they
don't like grammar.
R: That's normal!
P3: They find it boring.
R: Yeah, I understand. (19:27) And so tell me, so in the
international school, are you still working within the
government (19:34) curriculum?
P3: No, definitely not.Definitely not. OK. I'm sorry for the bark
s.I'm sorry.
R: (19:46) No, it's OK. I don't really hear it. So so how does
that work? So these students in an (19:51) international
school, do they finish with a with a diploma from the
government or not?
P3: (19:59) Um, that depends. Some of the students, they
just transferred from the government school. (20:06) For that,
they need a diploma from the government. Some of the
students, (20:11) they started out their education since the
very little age in the international school. So (20:18) they
have a very nice habit with the, speaking in English actually,
(20:21) that some students who just changed from the
government school, they also need to take the (20:27)
diploma from the government, not exactly like the diploma,
it's just a recommendation that (20:32) this student has
passed or this student has done and completed this year. It's
only that.
R: (20:39) Yeah. OK. And what kind of students are in the
international schools?
P3: (20:46) Before that, before only the rich kids can go to
the international, but after the school, (20:54) um, most
students just not going to the government school. So there
are so many (21:01) kinds of international school with a very
few fees, very little fees, so they can (21:09) think middle
class students and also that.
R: (21:14) It's more accessible. Now it's more accessible for
more people.
P3: (21:19) That's it. And also parents are very, these days,
parents really focus on the education a lot (21:26) more than
more than before. So they send to the international school
hoping that their (21:31) children can get better education.
So, yeah, a lot of students get to the international school with
(21:37) a nice tuition, nice teachers, you know, things and
infrastructure is a little better than the (21:44) government
school, honestly.
R: Yeah, I can imagine. And so how many students do you
have in your (21:50) class?
P3: Twenty five.
R: Twenty five. And in a government school?
P3: Fifty.
R: Fifty in one class. Wow.
P3: (22:00) Yeah. Fifty in one class. It's not very big, though.
And it doesn't have fans. Sometimes (22:06) it's a lot hot and
our country is a tropical country. So it's very hot.
R: Very hot where you (22:11) are. Yeah.
R: Yeah. And you mentioned so electricity is controlled by the
government. (22:19) Just mentioned the other day. So how
many hours of electricity a day do you get?
P3(22:27) It's like working in a schedule. If they give you
today from 9 a.m. to 1 a.m., you're going to get (22:38) it lost
at 1 a.m. You don't get the electricity at 1 a.m. And then you
will get it from 5 p.m. (22:45) to 5 a.m. in the morning. And
that's day by day.
R: Yeah. Right. How does that affect your (22:54) teaching?
It must affect your teaching a lot.
P3: I'm sorry.
R: That must affect your teaching a lot.
P3: (23:05) Um, yes, but the international schools have the
generator. So they use the generatorbecause (23:11) the
parents are going to say that we give you the money. Why
don't you give that electricity to us? (23:16) Yeah. And make
the complaints.
R: Yes. Okay. But I mean, sure, it creates an even bigger
gap between (23:24) the government schools and the
international schools. Right. I can imagine. I can really
(23:30) imagine that. Okay. Fantastic. Well, very interesting,
Cherry. I mean, it's quite a (23:36) unique position you're in.
And I've never spoken to someone from Myanmar before. So
(23:41) very interesting to have you as part of my research.
Maybe we could finish with a question (23:48) about where
do you see English education is going in your country? What
are your opinions on the (23:58) future of English education
in Myanmar?
P3: Obviously, it's going to be IGCSE to get the IGCSE to go
to (24:10) the college and the university in UK and United
States and Australia, Canada. Yeah, (24:19) these things the
only intention that the students go to the international school
is to get their (24:23) permission from the English speaking
country.
R: Okay.That's their main reason to be at an (24:30)
international school is to go to university in an English
speaking country after?
P3: (24:38) That is the only reason.
R: Okay. And from five years old? You said (24:46) children
start in the international schools from a very young age.
P3:(24:50) Yes. These days, the parents, they just put all of
the effort they can to be a kid. (25:00) Again, to getting used
with international schools, education, international education,
(25:07) because you're scared of their kids getting late rather
than the other kids. (25:14) Very competitive.
R: Yeah, it's a lot of pressure on the children.
P3: (25:18) Yeah, yeah. They have a tight schedule. They
didn't have enough time to play. They didn't (25:25) have
enough time to spend time with the family. The only thing that
they have to do is they have (25:28) to go to the classes
after.
R: So what does their day look like?
P3: (25:36) Like the workers, like we always have to go on
the schedule. So they are. (25:44) Yeah.
R: I mean, like a typical school day. Is it how many hours?
P3: (25:52) How many hours? Let me think. I'm not good at
mathematics. So from nine to three. Yeah. (26:02) Nine to
three.
R: (26:06) And did you did you go through that system
yourself? What about your schooling? (26:12)
P3: Yeah, my school also from nine to three.
R: And were you in an international school (26:18) or
government school?
P3: International school, it is the normal (26:22) schedule
from nine to three. But for the government school, they didn't
have enough space or a lot of (26:27) the mass of the
student and a small school. So they have to make two parts.
(26:32) First. The first part from seven to twelve and the
second part takes from twelve to five.
R: (26:42) OK, so the high school students have to go to
school from seven to twelve and the (26:48) secondary and
primary students have to go from twelve to five.
P3: (26:54) That's the duration. That's the time. It would take
a lot of time to think about (27:00) the duration.
R: No, it's OK. OK. OK. Very interesting. Listen, Cherry,
thanks so much for joining me (27:08) today. It's it's been a
valuable insight into how English education is looking in your
country. And (27:17) it's definitely a valuable thing for me to
be able to speak to you. So thank you so much (27:22) for
joining me. Good luck with everything. And yeah, if you I
don't know, do you have any (27:29) questions for me before
we finish up?
Notes

P3 outlined the contrast between the government
textbook and language program in a developing
94

country such as Myanmar and that of an
International school in the same country.
P3 was very complimentary towards the
international school curriculum, especially in the
way it encourages students to think. She praised
the intercultural content in the coursebook and how
her students are really interested in those kinds of
topics, especially when discovering diversity from
all kinds of countries. She also incorporates
decentering activities where students think critically
about their own culture.
Participant 4
Recorded on April 26, 2024 on a video conference platform.
P4 = Participant 4
R = Researcher
R = (0:12) Hello Laura. Can you hear me?
Yes, it's good. Hello.
(0:22) How are you?
Good, thank you.
Thank you so much for joining me today.
How are you?
That's fine.
(0:28) I mean, when I did my master's thesis, I got a lot of
help from people, filling up questionnaires (0:35) and stuff
like that, so now it's my turn to help as much as I can.
Yes, well, maybe that will be (0:40) me in the future too,
helping other dissertations and maybe that's the way it
works.
Fantastic.
(0:50) Well, it was my former colleague Ernesto Duenas that
gave me your contact. I was (0:57) actually his assistant
when he was a primary school teacher in Madrid.
Yes, he told me.
(1:04) And so you're colleagues with him at the moment, is
that right?
(1:08) Yes, we're working together in this program. Well, I
guess he has told you about it, (1:13) but we are basically
working on the digitalization of schools and helping teachers
(1:23) use digital tools so that they can somehow reach
students as well.
Okay, yes.
I mean, (1:31) technology is a fact nowadays, so we're
basically trying to help schools with this process.
(1:40) Is that for all subjects or is that English language
learning for every subject?
(1:46) Yes, it includes even like professional tasks, like from,
I don't know, communicating with (1:51) families or internal
processes of schools or even, I don't know, assessment,
(1:58) creating content and stuff like that.
Okay, interesting.
By the way, disclaimer, (2:03) I haven't spoken in English for
two years.
For two years? Wow, you're doing great if that's (2:09) the
case.
Well, ever since I started working in this project, I haven't
been teaching English, (2:14) so I haven't been speaking in
English, which means that at some point it might be difficult
(2:19) for me to express an idea or to come up with a word,
but I'll do my best.
Well, you can always (2:25) try in Spanish if English is not
working.
We have so many tools.
Yeah, that's right. Fantastic. (2:34) Perhaps, Laura, you can,
or we can start this by, could you please present yourself and
maybe talk (2:41) about your career and what you've done
teaching-wise up to this point?
Okay. Do you want (2:49) to start recording? Or maybe you
have already and I have a...
It started from the beginning.
(2:54) Perfect, great. Okay, so my name is Laura de Carlos. I
live in Madrid, in Spain, (3:00) and I have been teaching for
around 15 years, 14 and a half or something like that. (3:06) I
studied translation and interpreting in university and my first
foreign language was (3:12) English, so I became an English
teacher mainly, but I started working in charter schools,
which (3:20) I don't know if you're familiar with the concept
here in Spain.
What type of school?
Charter schools.
It's like they get money from the state, like they have this part
of public funding, (3:33) but they can hire teachers without
the competitive exam and all that, so they're (3:38) like in
between public and private systems. Okay. So I worked there
for around nine years. (3:48) I used to teach both English and
French and then I took the competitive exam (3:53) as an
English specialist, so I became... Mainly because I didn't
want to teach French, (4:01) so funnily enough, I ended up
teaching German.
Wow, you're multilingual!
(4:08) I have also worked as a bilingual coordinator. I teach
secondary school, so I work with students (4:15) from 12
years old to 18-ish, some of them older, depending on how
they cope with the education (4:23) system. I've also been
working as an ICT coordinator. I have also coordinated
Erasmus (4:32) projects and I did the international
baccalaureate. I don't know if you're familiar with it, (4:41) but
I have also been working with a school that was
implementing the program, (4:47) so I was a coordinator who
kind of took the school to the verification process and all that,
(4:54) and now they're teaching it, even though I'm not there
anymore. (4:59) So yeah, I don't know if that's enough or if
there is anything else.
No, it‟s perfect. I mean, (5:04) a tremendous variety of
experiences you've had then, isn't it?
Yeah.
Very interesting, yeah. (5:10) Well, for the purpose of my
dissertation, we'll be focusing more on the English teaching
(5:17) part of things today. So you mentioned you've been
teaching the ages of 12 to 18. (5:23) I'm looking at the level
of collège in France, which is from 12 to 15, middle school, I
suppose (5:30) we can call it, and so you've been teaching
this age. Perhaps you could describe what it (5:40) is like at
that level in Spain? Maybe you could describe them.
Yeah. Are you more interested in (5:49) public schools or in
all the range of schools that we have?
Well, it would be interesting to have (5:53) a comparison too.
Maybe we can start with public schools and then you could
also talk about the (5:58) charter schools if you like.
Okay, perfect. So well, as you know, in Madrid we have this
bilingual (6:05) program, which involves dividing students into
programa and sección. So programa students are (6:13) the
ones whose level of English is not so advanced, so they get
like a third of their session in (6:25) English, whereas the
others have more subjects in English. They also, instead of
regular English, (6:31) they learn something called advanced
English, which might start at an A2, so advanced English.
(6:40) That's another story. So with the programa students,
they normally get in English the subjects (6:47) that are not
so heavy in terms of contents, for example, technology or
physical education, music, (6:55) whereas the sección
students also have geographical history or biology also in
English. (7:02) The only subjects that they cannot have in
English are Spanish language, of course, or French,
German, (7:10) you know, foreign languages, and also math.
All the others can be taught in English. (7:16) So there is a
95
big division in the level of these students and this, since it's…
(7:25) Let's see, how can I put this? Because the level of
each group is different, (7:32) very often behavioural
considerations are also in play here. So normally, programa
students (7:38) are students who are not so strong in terms
of academic proficiency, but also very often present (7:47)
problems. For example, if a student comes from a different
country and they don't speak Spanish, (7:52) obviously it will
take them some time to kind of get to the level of their class,
(7:59) so they end up in programa. And also students who,
say they come from the Dominican Republic, (8:06) they
have never studied Spanish literature or Spanish history, and
the level in general is (8:13) lower in that educational system,
they struggle to reach the level of their group. So (8:20) the
problem is that with this bilingual system, programa students
is like some kind of ghetto (8:26) with behavioural problems,
very often special needs students, students from other
educational (8:35) systems, etc. And their level of English is
practically inexistent. Like you start with (8:44) the verb to be,
basic vocabulary, and even students who have been
studying in Spain all their lives, (8:50) and they have gone
through primary education in English, but for some weird
reason, it's like (8:57) they don't assimilate things. I don't
know if it's because they see the same contents every (9:02)
single year, and then “why bother when they're going to tell
me these things again next year”. (9:10) But yeah, the level
in these groups is quite basic. So in terms of methodology,
(9:16) they end up having a more traditional approach, like,
you know, filling the gaps exercises, (9:23) or learning the
table with the irregular verbs, stuff like that. Whereas with
second students, (9:29) well, here students have worked with
language assistants, such as yourself, from very early (9:36)
years. So over the last years, I have noticed a very, very big
improvement in terms of (9:44) listening skills, or
pronunciation skills, fluency, because when I, back in the
day, (9:51) when I was a student, it was very, very rare to
find a student who would have a conversation, (10:01) who
could kind of express their ideas, or stuff like that.
It was more like a subject. So even (10:07) if I'm good at
English, and I can write a perfect composition, but I will not
be able to speak it, (10:13) unless I go abroad, etc. But now,
second students are quite good at listening and at speaking,
(10:23) because they've grown up using their English with
English assistants.
So that allows for (10:31) the methodology to be a bit more
active. So for example, you can ask them, like challenge
them, (10:38) why do you think we say this, this way,
whereas we say this, this other way, (10:43) try to make them
learn in a more significant way. Of course, you can do that,
because you're (10:50) teaching English, and they
understand what you're saying, which is not always the case
with (10:54) programa students.
So that's really interesting, because in France, I would say,
it's probably (11:03) better that we compare the French
situation to the programa situation, because in France,
(11:10) English education at primary level is virtually
inexistent, right?
Really?
Yeah, they enter (11:20) college with a very low level of
English, would be similar then to the programa (11:26)
classes that exist in Spain. And so you've just touched upon
kind of what I'm really interested (11:33) in, which is getting
that deeper meaning in the language learning, right? Of
looking at (11:41) contexts and looking at, okay, we use this
type of language in this context, (11:45) different type of
language in a different context. And you were saying that
that's (11:51) much easier if the level of English is higher,
right?
Of course.
Do you also think that's possible (12:00) with lower language
level?
I guess, for example, I'm thinking of one of the last groups I
had in (12:11) programa, I had, it was a, well, normally we
have around 30 students in one class, (12:18) which makes it
very difficult to work with them at different levels. And if you
have, for example, (12:23) 30 students and five of them have
special needs, it's very hard to cater for all the different
(12:31) levels and all the different, well, like deal with each
situation. So I guess sometimes, (12:38) because in those
groups, we also have these behavioral problems, it's kind of
survival mode. (12:45) So you end up like having worksheets
and trying to work with them for 10 minutes here, 10 minutes
(12:52) here. But when I'm talking to you, the others are
going berserk. So, you know, that kind of thing. (13:00) So, I
mean, the thing is, normally teachers in programa groups
tend to use Spanish a lot, (13:09) because otherwise they
won't follow. So even if, I guess you can do it more in a
contrastive way. (13:17) Like, for example, instead of why do
we use, for example, why do we use the first conditional
(13:24) here, the second conditional here, what's the
difference in meaning, which you can do with (13:27) section,
because they understand both sentences. With programmer
students, I think it's more like, (13:33) okay, we say this in
English, and we say this in Spanish. Why do you think, how
do you feel it's (13:38) different? Or how can you identify the
structure in Spanish and English, but always leaning on
(13:45) their first language? If that is Spanish, because if
that's Chinese or Romanian, you're lost.
(13:54) Okay. Yeah. And so my dissertations about
intercultural competences and the way that we (14:04) try
and teach and develop these competences in an English
class is, well, it's my personal (14:11) conviction, if you like,
that it's something that should be focused on in English is
(14:15) preparing our students to, you know, coexist in
Europe in 2024 and in the world, in the globalized (14:25)
world we live in.
Right.
So it's interesting that you have this experience of working
with (14:30) similar age groups, but with different levels of
English. And perhaps you could talk about, (14:39) yeah, I
suppose the different challenges and how language, how the
level of language (14:49) impacts a teacher's ability to teach
those intercultural competences?
(14:55) Well, the good thing is, normally students are now
thinking especially of section groups that (15:03) are like
more aware of their surroundings or more, not aware, but
interested in their surroundings. (15:13) I guess because they
identify that we are in the European Union, where there are
different (15:19) countries with different languages, they,
especially towards, well, older students, (15:25) like maybe a
12 year old student hasn't stopped to think whether he wants
to go to study in Germany (15:30) but other students, I think
they do identify English as a lingua franca to be used (15:37)
all around the world. So that gives us a big advantage
because, I mean, apart from the fact (15:46) that you can
organize more programs, for example, I've been organizing
an exchange with Finland (15:53) and the language was
English. So it's kind of, you can use that perception that
English is a tool (15:59) that can work in other countries of
the world, whereas other subjects don't have that, let's say,
(16:07) hands-off approach. Like, it's not so much something
that you can use when you go to the (16:14) beach in the
summer with your parents and you will be meeting people
from different countries. (16:18) So that's one advantage. On
the other hand, here in Spain what we have is lots of
immigration (16:25) from South American countries because,
obviously, they speak English, Spanish, sorry, so it's easier
(16:32) for them to integrate here. So I guess with regard to
intercultural knowledge, that is not so helpful (16:39) with
regard to English. So, for example, my programa class, the
one I had in mind before, (16:45) they were mostly
96
immigrants and mostly Spanish-speaking immigrants. So
even if they came (16:51) from different countries, they don't
see that factor that English is used in other countries. (16:58)
It's like, well, English in England, in the States, not even
Canada, that's a big one. (17:05) Maybe Australia, they might
be surprised with that one. But it doesn't give you the
opportunity (17:12) to focus on those issues. It is also true
that since we have the language assistants, (17:19) that's
incredibly useful with regard to intercultural concerns
because they come here, (17:27) they talk to students about
their homeland. For example, it's not just Christmas. They
can also (17:34) talk about Kwanzaa or about Hanukkah and
that enriches, through the language, that enriches the (17:42)
cultural knowledge of those students. And also they learn,
like, they get the idea of, (17:49) well, I can travel to another
country, I can work there, I can do things there, and in order
to do (17:55) so, I need English. So that, for me, motivation is
like the biggest factor in this subject.
(18:03) Yeah, and it depends on the background of the
student, basically, if they don't have a (18:11) perception of
the wider world, of multi-languages existing and multiple
cultures existing. (18:19) But I suppose that is one of the
tasks of an English teacher, is to open the minds of students
(18:27) to the world. And that's what English language
allows, you know.
Yeah, absolutely.
People of (18:34) the world.
Yeah, for example, I had a student who was, I don't know if
you're familiar with (18:39) Global Classroom, like Modern
UN. It's a program that, well, basically, we get students in
third (18:49) grade or so, they are 14 years old, and they
have to debate, as if it was a UN assembly, (18:57) so they
make, like, points of motion and they have corpuses and stuff
like that, (19:02) and they have to debate about a topic. For
example, income inequality, gender income inequality.
(19:08) And then they are given a country, and they have to
debate from the point of view of that country. (19:14) So, for
example, this girl got Nepal. So, 14 year old student from
Spain, and she had to be debating (19:20) from the point of
view of Nepal about such a complicated topic. And actually,
for example, (19:25) this girl won and actually went to New
York to debate in the UN building, so that was very exciting.
(19:31) This girl also came to Finland, and she has also
participated in this project with Belgium, (19:39) and I think it
was Germany, launching a probe to the stratosphere. So, I
mean, just working (19:46) with people from so many
countries, doing so many projects, but of course, as you said,
(19:52) the background from this girl was, like, the perfect
one, economically wise, ability wise. (19:58) On the other
hand, we have students whose future is, like, I'm going to be
working at a McDonald's (20:05) until I manage to work in a
car workshop or something like that. So, they don't care
about (20:12) what's beyond. And also, another thing that
might even help this second group of students (20:21) is
technology, like the internet. Suddenly, they have these
influencers, and they have YouTubers (20:27) and TikTokers
from all over the world. So, I guess that can widen the
perception, (20:33) even that's a dangerous thing, because
you cannot control the contents they are exposed to. (20:38)
But yeah, and I think teachers should kind of exploit that,
linking that to my current line (20:45) of work, kind of educate
students as to what kind of contents are worth it, which ones
aren't, (20:52) and how to, you know, critical thinking,
identifying sources, this kind of stuff.
(21:01) Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, the internet has
just revolutionized the way cultures interact (21:09) with each
other, hasn't it? And, you know, I've seen, just from my
personal teaching example, (21:15) students who are even
playing video games online now, and they end up with
international friends (21:22) and speak fluent English by the
time they're 16 or 17. You know, there's all these different
ways (21:29) now that teenagers can connect with others in
different countries. But there are dangers to (21:38) it as well,
like you said. I wanted to go back to language assistants,
because that's obviously (21:45) a big part of English
education in Spain now, and it also exists in France. And you
mentioned that (21:57) an advantage is that students get
exposed to people from different cultures with a different
(22:02) language, right? But is it, you can tell me if this is
true, but it's still very much predicated (22:09) on native
speakers only. Is that right, in Spain, that you will only recruit
native speakers for (22:15) those roles [assistants]?
Yeah, which, I mean, I guess it makes sense, because, well,
this is just a personal (22:23) opinion. But for me, if you're
learning like an A2, B1 level, maybe it's better to have a nonnative (22:30) speaker.c
Like if you're in Spain, a Spanish teacher, or if you're in
France, a French teacher (22:35) who has had to learn the
grammar and has gone through the same problems that you
will meet. (22:42) So that person can kind of be in your shoes
a bit more. Whereas for higher levels, I think it's (22:50)
better to have native teachers, because of, you know,
pronunciations. Or for example, there might (22:57) be a
preposition that I don't know if that's right or wrong. I wouldn't
say, for example, like (23:04) grading writings. It's like, I know
I wouldn't say it that way, but I cannot be 100% sure whether
(23:11) that is correct or not. And I mean, that also happens
with language assistants. Because of (23:17) the Brexit, we
used to get lots of people from the UK, and now we get
people mainly from the US and (23:24) some from Canada.
And since our textbooks and everything here is British
English, (23:29) there are these kind of things that US
speakers find a bit off. Like, for example, you know, (23:37)
the aluminium and the aluminium stuff.
So that's good. That's good for the students, right? (23:46)
That there are varieties of English and that people speak
English differently.
(23:50) Yeah, yeah. Sometimes it can be a bit tricky, for
example, with the present perfect tense that [is] (23:56) used
in the UK and the US. Well, but you see, for example, in my
case, I'm aware of UK-US differences, (24:04) but I have no
idea whatsoever how they use it in South Africa or in, I don't
know, Australia, (24:12) for example. So I guess since
students nowadays are exposed to [a] wider set of sources,
they will (24:20) have a better understanding of that than the
one I have now. But yeah, we mainly get native teachers,
(24:30) but I think it's not like compulsory. It's also like the
companies or the, I don't really know (24:37) how it works, if
it's agencies or something that find students in the US, for
example, (24:43) who want to come here and work. I don't
know if they aim only at the US because maybe it's not,
(24:49) I'm not sure, but I'm thinking that maybe it's more
because of the people between the administration (24:57)
and the language assistant rather than the law saying it has
to be a native speaker. (25:03) I'm not 100% sure about that,
but I mean, it makes sense. For example, are you aware with
(25:09) European schools?
Yeah.
So in those schools [European schools], one of the highlights
they have is that their teachers (25:17) are native. So for
example, in the German section, they have German
teachers, in the Spanish section, (25:21) they have Spanish
teachers, and now they have the problem with Brexit
because it's not so easy to (25:27) find a European English
native speaker. But yeah, I don't know.
I mean, I think it's a big issue in (25:36) France as well, in
which native speakers are very highly valued. I just see,
again, it's my personal (25:46) conviction, I see English as a
global language and it's one that's not controlled by native
(25:54) speakers anymore. More people speak English that
are non-native than a native and I think it's a (26:01) little bit,
97
I don't know, I think we need to accept that language does
not have to be perfect as well (26:10) and that to have it, to
have, you know, for example, a language assistant that has
a… even a B2 (26:17) level or a C1 level, talking to students
with an A2 level. Yeah, it's valuable. It is valuable and (26:26)
it shows them again that even if you're not from an Englishspeaking country, you can learn English (26:33) and you can
have these experiences in different countries too.
Actually, I think that [non-native assistants] is rather (26:38)
innovative and it's a great point because I think that is kind of
changing. (26:47) I was thinking when I started studying
French, sorry, German, I had this old man in my class (26:52)
who was persuaded that only native speakers could teach
and it was like, come on, we're (26:57) learning the numbers
from 1 to 20. Do you really need a native speaker? And I am
more open-minded (27:05) towards that and I guess you as a
younger generation will be even more open-minded. So,
(27:12) maybe because the world is opening up so much, we
start to develop that awareness that, as you said, (27:22) I
mean, I love the idea that English is not owned by native
speakers anymore.
Yeah, I just think (27:28) it's really important for our students
as well to show them that language does not have to be
(27:35) perfect. Language is a tool of communication and you
don't have to speak every grammatical (27:41) tense in the
perfect form to be understood and to communicate with
different cultures. It's (27:46) something that I firmly believe
in. So, just to ask you about that, but I'd like to steer (27:54)
our conversation now towards teaching materials, which is
another component of my dissertation, (28:01) which is
especially, you know, we've been talking about these
intercultural (28:09) communication and competences and I
would like to ask you about how are those (28:16) presented
in textbooks and do textbooks kind of attempt to develop
those kind of things within (28:23) students? So, do they
present different cultures and do they ask students to (28:29)
imagine that they are interacting with different cultures and
things like that?
(28:35) Yeah, I mean, I think they [students ] receive
information about different countries, (28:43) but, for
example, when it comes to the last thing you say about
(28:47) imagine that you're interacting with someone from a
different country, it's limited to (28:51) you have an English
friend who's coming to visit or something like that. Yeah. But
in terms of, (28:57) for example, listening comprehension,
well, it's interesting with listening exercises, (29:03) they only
get different accents from native speaking countries, not from
other nationalities. (29:12) Welsh being probably like the
hardest. (29:19) And then when it comes to text, they do get
input from different cultures and everything, (29:25) but I
think it's more because of their anecdotal nature, like it's
something that students will (29:34) find interesting. They will
be stricken because it's something new or something they
(29:39) didn't know about more than because they have an
awareness that we're going to foster that. (29:46) So, I think
it's more like, you know, this kind of how to attract students'
attention (29:52) rather than I want the students to realize
that other countries don't understand English.
30.00 minutes +
P4 continues (0:00) Yeah, and also, what was I going to say?
Yeah, there's, well, you know that we have different (0:10)
laws in Spain for education, like every time we have a new
government, which happens every (0:16) four years more or
less, we get a new education law, which changes things and
it's a paperwork (0:23) nightmare. So in the one that we have
now, and I can't remember if also, yeah, I think in the (0:29)
previous one as well, because in Europe we have the key
competences and we have like (0:34) the intercultural
awareness competence. I don't know how it was phrased
exactly in the previous (0:40) law or in the current one, but
they do have a plurilingual and intercultural aspects. So I
think (0:49) also textbooks have to incorporate that kind of
information because it's stated by law.
(0:55) That's the curriculum, is it? And that's only (1:03)
regional based, right? So that is the curriculum for the
Madrid.
(1:08) It's state-based. The thing is the Ministry of Education
sets the basic curricula and then (1:15) because the
competence are transferred to the Comunidades Autónomas,
then for example, Madrid (1:22) kind of makes more specific
curricula for Madrid and then Castilla-La Mancha, another
one for them (1:31) and so on. But there is like this big
framework, which in this case is called LOMLOE, and that
one (1:38) has plurilingual and intercultural contents
included. The problem again is that then, (1:47) okay, we
have like older teachers, older than me, work basically with
textbooks and their (1:54) methodology is basically I take the
textbook, page 20, exercises 1, 2, and 3. Next day, (2:00)
page 31 and so on. Then there's, when I started, we started
like, my generation started like (2:08) using other things
different from the textbook because otherwise it's boring for
students and (2:14) for us. And now new generations are
bringing even more things. So like with technology and (2:20)
with new materials, new methodologies, like for example, the
fifth classroom or the (2:27) project-based learning and all
that. So I think with time it will change. But to this day,
textbooks (2:34) have things that are limited to what is written
in the regulations. So yeah, they have to incorporate (2:43)
something about intercultural, but it can be maybe that this
text says, wow, in China they do this, (2:49) they have the, in
Japan they have the tea ceremony, more than actual impact
in the language learning process.
(2:56) Yes, interesting. And so that means then these are
Spanish publishers creating textbooks (3:03) that align with
the curriculum set by the government, right? So it is very
much framed in a (3:12) a Spanish way, I guess, that would
be different to how it is in France. And that would be (3:18)
interesting. Could you tell me maybe the name of what would
be a major Spanish publisher that (3:25) I could potentially
look at?
For example, we have Cambridge, we have Oxford, like
Oxford (3:32) University Press, Cambridge, Macmillan. So
they are like not necessarily Spanish (3:41) brands, but they
have like their Spanish, well actually, yeah, their Spanish
brands. So (3:47) even if the origin of the company is
England, for example, the Spanish branch will work with
(3:54) the Spanish requirements in terms of regulation. So
maybe they have also Oxford University Press (4:01) France,
and they work with a curricula there or something.
(4:06) I don't know how it works in different countries, but...
That's interesting. I mean, in France, (4:12) it's French
companies.
Oh, right.
No Cambridge, no Oxford used in schools in France.
(4:19) So... Well, yeah, there are very traditional ones like
SME, EDV, EDVVS, but for example, (4:26) English
teachers, I think we tend to use more, well, you know,
Cambridge, Oxford, (4:34) even National Geographic have
now their own like line of textbooks.
Yes, yes, I know those ones. (4:42) But again, and they're
specifically transformed for the Spanish market.
(4:48) Yeah, because in order to use them in Spain, we need
them to follow this.
I mean... (4:57) What restrictions does that create for the
teacher then? Do you think... Is there any part (5:03) of that
curriculum you think, oh, it's missing something or it should
be like this? Or what's (5:12) your general feeling about the
English curriculum in Spain?
I was thinking that I think they also (5:18) have lines like
aimed at the European framework, like B1, B2. So they are
more aimed at (5:27) communicating competence. So they
98
work with skills and that's it. And I think those are the ones
(5:32) we are currently using. They used to have ______ and
______, but the problem was that first of (5:37) all, our
education system is very, very, very focused on exams. So if
you're going to have (5:45) A, B and C in the exam, we're
going to be working only with A, B and C. So for example,
speaking (5:51) is not worked so much. For example, I don't
know, if you're going to work on a reading, (5:58) they start
with, discuss with your class about what they know about this
topic. (6:03) But I mean, come on, that is not really working
on speaking. That's a poor excuse. (6:09) They have like,
talk to your partner about your favourite experience that you
had last summer. (6:15) Something that is very silly and it's
more, for me, it's more like a filler. Like I have to say (6:21)
that they're going to be doing this after the reading so that
they are using what they have (6:26) learned rather than
giving appropriate strategies. For example, these methods
that are more focused (6:35) on levels like A1, B2, et cetera,
they tend to have, I don't know, connectors that you can use,
(6:41) expressions that you can use. So in that sense, I think
they are more complete. (6:48) With law, well, again, we
have this problem that they have two books. They have the
student book (6:57) and the workbook, which are the
equivalent to the pupil's book and the activity book (7:03) for
primary education. So there's this obsession that they have
to go throughout the whole book (7:11) because if they don't
finish it, it will be like, you haven't seen all the contents (7:15)
aimed at this year, et cetera. So there's this pressure, like I
have to fill in the workbook (7:21) even if students are not so
sure about what they're doing.
(7:26) And if it's finished, it's job done.
(7:29) Exactly, exactly. Like, oh, we've seen relative process.
I don't know what that is.
We've seen (7:35) See, the exercises are complete. So I
think that's a problem. Like on the paper, it looks (7:41) very
good. You have something that you have to do and you go to
your class, explain it, do it with (7:46) them, and that's done.
But it's not realistic in terms of language learning, especially
using the (7:53) language. Because I don't mind if you can fill
in 15 passive voice exercises perfectly, but then (8:02) if you
talk to someone, you cannot use a passive voice structure.
There was a point. So yeah, I (8:08) guess I'm more for a
communicative approach. In traditional, well, because of the
regulation, (8:16) we have like the four skills. Now I think they
have also introduced mediation. (8:23) But they have
grammar and vocabulary are like the milestones, the basis of
life. (8:31) So, for example, I've worked in schools where
70% of their grade was based on grammar and vocabulary
(8:38) exams. So it's more important to be able to fill in an
exercise rather than writing an email or (8:47) talking to
someone.
Yeah, exactly.
And at the moment, you're working on technology and (8:54)
incorporating technology. Maybe we can talk about how can
we incorporate technology (9:00) to develop intercultural
competences with students? And also, can we incorporate
those (9:09) things into textbooks and teaching materials?
Because I think especially for inexperienced (9:15) teachers
and new teachers, textbooks are still really important. But
actually improving them (9:23) is still really important. And
incorporating technology is part of that, right?
(9:27) Yeah. Well, I know there are lots of programs, for
example, with the global classrooms I was (9:34) telling you
about. We also have global scholars for first and second
grade where they have to (9:39) pair with a school, like a
class from a different country. They work on different topics.
And then (9:46) they have to, for example, they say, OK, so
on the 20th at 2 o'clock, we're going to Skype together (9:53)
and we're going to discuss this topic. So they're using the
language they're learning and besides (9:58) with some other
countries. So that will help. There are traditional activities like
exchanging (10:06) letters and stuff like that. And there are
also programs like internationalization, (10:17) however that
is said. So, yeah, that ranges from international schools. Do
you know E-Twinning? (10:25) So, for example, participating
in between projects can be very helpful to create a rapport
with a (10:32) different school, with a different country, and in
terms of intercultural communication. (10:37) And it's always
through the use of technology. So I think that would be great.
Or even (10:45) through platforms. I mean, when I was like
20, I used to love a band called Placebo. So I found (10:54) a
forum on the internet and I don't know how many hours of
English writing and English reading I (11:00) have spent
thanks to that forum. So and to this day, I still keep in touch
with people. (11:06) And there was one Hungarian girl, a
South American guy. So kind of finding points of interest
(11:16) that make you contact from your inner motivation with
people from all over the world. (11:22) And so, for example,
what you said before, video games. I think they are a very
powerful tool as (11:26) well. For example, Minecraft and all
that can also be used to teach concepts or to incorporate
(11:34) curricular contents. So, yeah, I think technology is
very motivational for students (11:42) and that should be
exploited. Even though for textbooks, I understand it's very,
very difficult. (11:48) They tend to have like online resources,
but they end up being like a workbook that is done (11:54) by
clicking instead of crossing.
Yeah, I think that that's why I mean, see if you agree, but I
think (12:03) at least initiating the process of discovery can
be something that we do in a textbook (12:09) and kind of
having some kind of activity or I don't know what it would look
like, but something (12:14) that encourages students to go on
the internet and find a forum about their favourite band,
(12:20) you know, just like letting them know that these
things are possible and that it's actually (12:26) really
important for their language skill development.
Yeah, and actually I think like (12:33) finding partners in
different countries that make things more real because you're
talking to a person (12:40) and also I think there's a problem
with teacher training because, for example, we think, well,
(12:47) some people tend to think that flipped learning can be
done just by telling students watch this (12:54) video at
home. That's not good learning or cooperative work. Yeah,
they're working in (13:00) groups, but that's not that
methodology. So, I think teachers have so much work and
their job (13:07) is so hard that sometimes they tend to
simplify and are a bit simplistic as to what they could do.
(13:14) It's also true that a big percentage of the people
would keep like workbook, page 20, (13:22) exercise 5. I
would stop there, but I think there is a fair amount of
teachers, especially (13:28) the newer ones, who would love
to do more things, but they don't have the time because they
have (13:32) so much work, so much paperwork, so many
difficulties in the everyday life. So, (13:39) I think it would be
interesting to have some kind of program for teachers to
even to pair (13:46) up with other teachers and share
resources or create contents and stuff like that, (13:52) that
they could actually use afterwards. Which is what E-Twinning
is about as well.
It's about (13:59) connecting teachers, right?
Yeah, but I don't know to what point teachers are aware of
that.
(14:06) Yeah, well, I mean that's problematic as well, isn't it?
Yeah, I guess we have so much information (14:14) and
sometimes it's hard to say I'm interested in using this or that
doesn't really fit with what (14:21) I want to do, but there are
so many... And it's also, again, because some people only
want to (14:28) do their job and go home and forget about it
or they cannot for personal reasons or because of (14:34)
their workload. But if teachers had the chance to investigate
or to get new ideas, I think (14:44) students would benefit
99
from that. For example, teacher observation. (14:49) I think
that's something very important and very useful, but teachers
don't want to do it because (14:55) they feel assessed. Like,
my co-workers are going to say that this isn't working, that I
cannot (15:01) manage my classroom correctly, etc. It can
also be something cultural from Spain. I haven't worked
(15:09) in France or other countries, so I cannot know. But
here in Spain, there is like this mindset of (15:17) I want to do
my bit and stop there.
Yeah, okay. Listen, Laura, you've given me so much of your
(15:26) time already, so we can stop the conversation here.
It's been very, very interesting and fascinating (15:33) to get
the Spanish perspective. So, thanks so much for joining me.
I hope it's been helpful.
Yeah, no, it's certainly (15:40) been very helpful and lots of
things for me to think about in the future. And I hope for you
(15:46) as well that it was kind of good to discuss these
things and maybe...
Yeah, yeah, it was very nice (15:52) talking to you. And if
there's anything else I can help with, just let me know.
I will. Thanks (15:58) so much for your time, Laura.
Thank you. Wish you a good day.
You too. Bye.
Notes









P4 offers a very interesting perspective from a
variety of angles due to her professional
experience.
ICC
development
is
very
difficult
with
disadvantaged students due to language level and
behavioural issues.
Language assistans have been a very positive
addition. Increasing both language skills and
cultural awareness in students.
She initially believed in native speaking assistants
but also finds non-native assistants to be a good,
innovative idea.
Britsh textbooks and US assistants is conflicting.
She believes in native speaking teachers for higher
levels but not lower levels.
Motivation is the biggest factor in language
learning. Language assistants help that. So does
technology.
Textbooks present limited cultural knowledge of
native speaking countries.
Textbooks have to follow Spanish curriculum.


Technology should be encouraged to develop
students language and ICC.
ICC difficult to practice when school is so exam
focused. Not enough resources to do proper
speaking exams.
Participant 5
Participant 5 is a middle school teacher in a rural area of
France, with a translation training background.
Participant responded to a group on Facebook.
This interview took place on 29/04/24 on GoogleMeet at
11am.
R = Researcher
P5 = Participant 5
R = (0:00) Pour commencer, est-ce que vous pouvez vous
présenter un peu votre poste actuel et vos (0:07)
expériences en tant que professeure d'anglais?
P5 = D'accord, moi c'était plutôt une reconversion, (0:15)
j'étais dans la traduction avant, et donc j'ai passé le CAPES
en 2013, non en 2012, (0:21) et je l'ai eu tout de suite. Donc
je voulais faire l'agrégation, mais je fais d'abord l'ECAPES,
(0:27) et donc j'ai commencé dans un lycée, et après j'ai suivi
mon mari qui travaillait à l'international, (0:37) donc j'ai
enseigné au lycée français à Buenos Aires aussi.
Après on est rentré, (0:45) et du coup je continué dans un
collège. Voilà, donc globalement ça va faire 11 ans que
(0:50) j'enseigne l'anglais ici, au collège et au lycée.
Vous avez enseigné l'anglais en Argentin ?
Oui, (0:59) oui, au lycée français, donc c'était très intéressant
comme métier, parce que c'est pas (1:06) le même niveau,
ils sont pratiquement bilingues, ou trilingues, ils sont vraiment
polyglottes, (1:11) donc c'est vraiment, on peut avoir des
vraies conversations avec des collégiens, pas comme (1:16)
ici, où c'est limite secondaire. Donc là c'était vraiment des
vrais échanges.
Vous avez appris les (1:26) raisons pourquoi ils ont un autre
niveau à cet âge-là ?
Je dirais parce qu'ils sont des enfants (1:33) de diplomates,
c'est quand même un milieu assez favorisé, et aussi ils sont
très ouverts (1:41) vers le langage, vers les langues, donc ils
apprennent l'espagnol, mais ils sont des familles (1:46)
italiennes, ou françaises, ou anglaises, donc ils parlent
beaucoup de langues, et ensuite ils ont des (1:54)
répétiteurs, donc ils embauchent des gens pour leur
enseigner encore l'anglais à la maison. Donc (2:00) c'est
vraiment, et c'est une ouverture d'esprit, excusez-moi, c'est
une ouverture d'esprit envers (2:04) les langues, les autres
langues qu'on n'a pas forcément ici en France. Il y a ça, je
crois (2:10) aussi le milieu, les parents parlent l'anglais,
forcément ils ont envie que leurs enfants apprennent (2:16)
l'anglais, donc je crois que c'est ça la différence.
Oui, c'est à la maison aussi, cet esprit international. (2:24)
Oui, carrément, et aussi cette volonté, parce que moi j'ai
toujours, je ne sais pas, j'ai vraiment (2:33) la concentration
d'un chien, donc je parle dans tous les sens, mais je crois
aussi que c'est la (2:40) même chose. Les parents pensent
que l'anglais est important, ils font tout vraiment pour que
leurs (2:46) enfants apprennent, mais j'ai toujours, je vis à
Vendôme, donc c'est assez rural, et c'est aussi (2:54) un
milieu différent, donc ils pensent toujours que les Français ne
sont pas capables d'apprendre (3:03) l'anglais. C'est
génétiquement parlant, ils ne sont pas capables. Et moi ça
m'agace quand j'arrive (3:09) avec des parents qui disent «
Ah, mais c'est trop compliqué, il ne faut pas l'apprendre, c'est
trop (3:13) dur l'anglais ». Je vais arrêter, c'est leur histoire
qu'ils transmettent à leurs enfants, (3:18) mais les enfants
maintenant avec toutes les technologies peuvent
comprendre, mais c'est (3:22) toujours cet obstacle constant,
mais je parle d'ici, donc ce n'est pas Paris, ce n'est pas
Bordeaux, (3:28) mais c'est ici.
D'accord, c'est intéressant, c'est les parents qui font des
barrières sur l'apprentissage.
(3:38) Oui, ils ont leurs complexes, c'est une autre
génération où l'apprentissage, je dirais, (3:45) c'est plus cool
maintenant, c‟est plus dans les compétences. Et eux, ils sont
tellement (3:50) traumatisés par l'expérience qu'ils
transmettent ça à leurs enfants. Et là, ça m'agace, ça
m'agace (3:56) vraiment, parce que par exemple, on a
travaillé sur « Hello, my name is Riley, I'm from Minnesota ».
Et (4:03) ils ont trouvé ça super dur. Pourtant, ça fait quatre
semaines qu'on a travaillé là-dessus, (4:07) ce n'est pas
compliqué. Mais les parents disent « Ah non, non, c'est trop
dur, on ne peut pas apprendre (4:12) trois phrases en anglais
». Mais ça m'agace, j'ai arrêté les sixième, je n'en peux plus
avec les (4:17) sixième. Ça m'agace, ça m'agace.
Oui, non, j'ai vécu ça un peu aussi.
C'est vrai ?
Oui. Mais (4:26) quand vous dites que maintenant, c'est plus
sur les compétences, qu'est-ce que ça veut dire ?
100
Ça (4:32) veut dire, je ne sais pas si vous suivez le
programme, mais avant, on n'avait pas le droit (4:37) de
noter sur les détails. En fait, entre-temps, les compétences à
la fin, l'évaluation summative, (4:45) on décide si c'est
compétence orale ou écrite. Et c'est tout d'un coup, d'accord
? Donc, ce n'est (4:51) pas comme si on va faire, on va
travailler sur le pronom relatif « which », « that » ou « who »,
(4:58) « whom », par exemple. Là, on peut noter, il s'est
trompé, au lieu de mettre « that », ils ont (5:07) mis « who »
ou je ne sais pas quoi. Là, on enlève un point. Là
maintenant, compétence, c'est sur 20. (5:13) Et ensuite, il y a
« est-ce qu'il a bien réussi » ou « pas très bien réussi ». C'est
vraiment très (5:20) cool dans un sens. Même si vous notez
juste votre prénom, vous allez avoir quatre points. Donc,
(5:25) déjà quatre points sur 20, c'est top ! Parce qu'on
travaille sur le … Ça va changer, (5:31) ils ont changé le
programme pour leur entrée, donc on va voir. Mais c'est ça
les compétences, (5:35) en fait. Vous êtes en train de
m'enregistrer, c'est un peu gênant.
(5:38) Non, ne vous inquiétez pas. Les compétences, elles
sont plus basées sur les compétences (5:47)
communicatives maintenant, c'est ça ? Ce n'est pas juste un
truc grammaire qui va perdre des points, (5:51) c'est « est-ce
qu'ils arrivent à communiquer » ou pas ?
(5:54) Oui, exactement. Donc, ce n'est pas très exigeant, je
trouve, parce qu'on peut avoir quatre points (6:01) même en
se présentant, en écrivant son prénom. Donc là, quatre
points sur 20, c'est quand même (6:06) pas mal. Moi, je
trouve que ce n'est pas très exigeant, mais ça va changer
apparemment.
(6:16) À voir !
Non, mais je trouve que ça a fait un peu de dégâts, parce
qu'ils ont une connaissance (6:21) vague des choses, mais
pas vraiment concrète.
Et quels matériels vous utilisez en cours ? (6:36)
Les matériels ?
Oui.
(6:38) C'est-à-dire ?
Les manuels scolaires ou d'autres (6:42) choses que vous
trouvez pour engager avec ?
Pour être franche, je suis beaucoup les (6:47) manuels
scolaires, parce que, je ne sais pas, je sais que c'est un
grand débat en France chez (6:56) les professeurs. C'est
vraiment « on est super prof, on fait notre séquence ». Et en
fait, (7:02) moi, je trouve qu'il y a des manuels scolaires, il y
a tout. Et maintenant, avec les nouveaux, (7:06) il y a
vraiment des choses authentiques aussi. Et c'est facile à
suivre. Or, récemment, (7:14) j'étais inspectée, et c'était bête,
parce que moi, je suivais les manuels scolaires comment
(7:19) évaluer les élèves. Et en fait, il ne fallait pas. Donc,
elle m'a dit « Ah non, non, votre (7:23) manuel scolaire, ce
n'est pas juste ». Enfin bref, je suis contente qu'elle m'a
corrigé, (7:32) mais en fait, quand même, je savais que c'est
le manuel scolaire officiel du collège, (7:37) donc on a investi
de l'argent dedans, mais en fait, ce n'était pas comme ça
qu'il fallait (7:42) faire. Donc maintenant, ils m'ont dit «
Écoutez ». Parce que moi, j'utilisais « E for English (7:51) ».
Moi, je trouve ça sympa, mais effectivement, après
maintenant, avec beaucoup de recul, (7:55) j'ai dit « Tiens,
j'aurais dû peut-être pas faire ça comme ça ». Et ensuite, j'ai
mes collègues (8:02) qui disent « Ah, je n'utilise pas le
manuel scolaire », mais ils prennent tout de l'Internet, (8:06)
c'est-à-dire des autres professeurs qui ont déjà fait leur
séquence. Mais parfois, 90%, (8:12) ça vient du manuel
scolaire. Ils ont été mixés partout. (8:16) Donc, il y a un mix
de différents manuels.
Oui, voilà. (8:21) Et qu'est-ce que, bon, pour vous, qu'est-ce
que faire un bon manuel scolaire ? Qu'est-ce que (8:24) vous
cherchez si vous allez choisir un ?
Moi, j'aimerais bien que ce soit authentique. (8:30) Donc,
dans le sens que, par exemple, si c'est des compréhensions
orales, ça devrait être le (8:33) vrai débit de gens qui parlent
en anglais, pas genre « Hello, how are you ? ». Moi, je (8:40)
préfère vraiment quelque chose d'authentique. J'aimerais
bien que ce soit à jour, c'est-à-dire (8:46) qu'ils suivent tout
ce qu'on dit dans les académies parce que, comme mon
inspecteurise m'a dit, (8:54) mais il faut absolument lire ce
qu'il y a sur l'académie, pas sur ce qu'il y a sur l'Internet.
(8:58) C'est vraiment notre bible, quoi, l'académie, les textes
de l'académie, que franchement, (9:02) je ne les suis pas. Et
moi, je trouve qu'il faut beaucoup plus d'exercice sur les
grammaires (9:09) parce que, même si on n'est pas obligé
de les noter, les élèves ont besoin d'un cadre (9:16)
grammatical pour dire... Effectivement, parce que, par
exemple, mon mari, il a appris l'anglais, (9:22) il connaît
toutes les règles, mais vraiment parce que c'était vraiment
des grammaires par cœur, (9:26) par cœur, il est imbattable,
il peut recracher des règles. Parfois, je lui dis « Attends,
(9:30) moi, c'est super ça ». Mais bon, effectivement, là,
comme on ne fait pas apprendre les règles, (9:35) c'est au
feeling « Ah oui, effectivement, ça a l'air comme ça ». Je
crois qu'il faut vraiment (9:40) des grammaires, beaucoup de
grammaires, des exercices de grammaire qu'il faut faire avec
(9:47) les yeux fermés à la fin, quoi, donc... –
Est-ce que vous pensez que ça, c'est un peu (9:51) par
rapport à votre histoire comme traductrice qui donne cette
importance de grammaire? (9:59) –
Moi, je crois que oui, peut-être, mais aussi, j'ai parlé aux
élèves qui sont partis (10:05) – vous savez qu'ils ont quitté le
lycée et ils font prépa après. Et prépa, c'est strict sur (10:13)
les grammaires, donc c'est plus au feeling, il faut
absolument... Ma fille, par exemple, (10:17) elle a fait
médecine et ils ont instauré l'anglais parce qu'ils se sont
rendus compte que ceux qui (10:23) font les sciences au
bac, ils ne sont pas très, très forts en anglais. Et donc,
comme tous les (10:28) journaux médicaux sont en anglais,
donc ils disent « Il va falloir faire de l'anglais ». Et c'est
(10:32) énormément de grammaire, de grammaire, de
grammaire, de grammaire, vraiment des nuances, (10:37)
vraiment... Si on ne fait pas attention, on coche faux. Donc,
c'est vraiment... Et ça rassure (10:44) beaucoup de Français,
ils disent maintenant « De toute façon, la règle, c'est comme
ça ». Et je (10:49) crois que c'est très, très important. Et
aussi, j'ai parlé à des collègues allemands qui enseignent
(10:54) le français et ils ont dit, pour eux, c'est beaucoup de
grammaire en français qu'ils font, (11:01) ensuite, oui,
effectivement, des échanges, des vidéos, de la musique et
tout, mais c'est des (11:05) grammaire, grammaire,
grammaire. Et c'est comme ça qu'ils arrivent. Et moi, j'admire
les Allemands (11:09) parce qu'ils parlent couramment
l'anglais, même si c'est la quatrième, troisième langue qu'ils
(11:12) ont apprise. Oui, effectivement, c'est beaucoup de
grammaire. Je crois qu'il faut avoir le juste (11:17) milieu
entre les deux. Et surtout pour les cas français, il faut
absolument de la grammaire.
(11:24) C'est nécessaire, on ne peut pas parler les langues,
sans la grammaire, je suis d'accord.
(11:30) Complètement.
Et comment vous voyez alors les aspects culturels et
interculturels?
(11:35) C'est dans quel sens?
Alors, quand on parle des aspects culturels, (11:39) c'est
comment les autres cultures sont présentées dans les
manuels. Est-ce que c'est l'histoire, (11:46) est-ce que c'est
des actualités, etc. Et interculturel, c'est en fait peut-être les
tâches, (11:56) les demandes de manuels qui donnent aux
élèves à interagir avec ces cultures. (12:04) Peut-être de
décentrer aussi. En France, on le fait comme ça. Comment
ils font à l'étranger, (12:10) comment ça va impacter,
comment je communique avec eux, etc. L'interculturel,
(12:17) c'est vraiment l'échange entre deux cultures.
101
OK. Moi, je dis toujours aux élèves, (12:23) quand ils rentrent
à la maison, qu'est-ce qu'ils ont compris de ce qu'on a
appris. (12:28) Donc, c'est pas surtout les grammaires. Je
veux dire, qu'est-ce que c'est, comment, (12:32) comment
est-ce que c'est tout nouveau pour eux? Qu'est-ce qu'ils ont
appris des étudiants, (12:37) des élèves aux États-Unis? Il
faut qu'ils sachent, qu'ils voient les différences entre (12:44)
les deux cultures. Alors, après, la question, c'est que quelle
culture est-ce qu'on apprend? (12:50) D'accord? Donc, il y a
beaucoup, beaucoup de Britanniques. Donc, il y a beaucoup
de, (12:55) très peu d'Australie. Et ensuite, très peu, très peu
sous les États-Unis. Or, (13:02) si c'est les États-Unis, c'est
toujours la ségrégation et qu'ils vont encore rêvoir au (13:07)
lycée. Donc, la ségrégation, ils n'en peuvent plus. Donc,
dans ce sens-là, ben oui, moi, (13:13) je trouve que c'est
très, très important. Et je vois à travers des documents, on
peut (13:19) montrer les différences culturelles. Et alors,
c'était quoi l'autre question? Donc, les tâches?
(13:28) Ouais, pour l'interculturalité. Comment on prépare
nos élèves pour communiquer, (13:35) pour interagir avec
d'autres cultures? Ah, comment ils vont réagir avec les
(13:40) autres cultures?
P6 Par exemple, alors, je réfléchis. Parce que, par exemple,
là, quand on parle de (13:57) l'Australie, on aborde toujours
les sujets des aborigènes. Donc, il y a toujours ça. Et
comment (14:04) les aborigènes étaient maltraités par les
colons? Donc, moi, je trouve que c'est très, (14:09) très
important parce qu'on va revoir encore avec l'Afrique du Sud,
avec les ségrégations. Donc, (14:15) c'est toujours ça. Mais
après, je me demande, c'est mon inspectrice qui m'avait dit,
parce qu'on a (14:20) travaillé sur l'Australie, mais elle m'a dit
que ce n'est pas obligé d'aborder ça tout le temps. (14:25)
Parce que ça devient un peu très French de parler de tous
les problèmes sociaux et ensuite qu'on (14:31) puisse
l'aborder, on a quelque chose en commun. Et après, elle m'a
dit, justement, il y a des (14:37) choses super sur l'Australie,
pas que les aborigènes. Donc, moi, on travaille sur les
(14:41) animaux parce que je travaille avec les quatrièmes,
les super animaux et des petites choses comme ça, (14:47)
ou l'histoire des colons qui arrivent. Mais on va tout, toute
l'Australie, c'est pas juste le (14:56) problème épineux des
aborigènes, mais aussi les trucs cools et sympas sur
l'Australie. Donc, (15:03) moi, je travaille l'adoption sur le
côté positif de l'Australie, par exemple. Et moi, je trouve que
(15:08) c'est très, très important parce que oui,
effectivement, il y a tous ces mouvements pour (15:12)
aborder l'LGBTQ. Il y a tellement de choses à aborder, mais
il y a aussi des choses super, (15:17) et que par contraste,
par exemple, les animaux qu'on ne trouve pas en France.
Donc, on va dire, (15:22) les redback spiders qu'on n'a pas
en France. Donc, moi, je trouve que c'est des choses (15:29)
importantes culturelles qu'on peut toujours aborder sur un
point de vue, sur l'aspect (15:33) positif, pas seulement
l'aspect négatif.
Oui, oui, j'ai vu beaucoup de ça aussi, (15:40) quand c'est
l'Afrique du Sud, c'est l‟aparteid, quand c'est les Etats-Unis,
(15:44) c'est les problèmes raciaux, etc.
Oui, c'est très français, c'est très français, (15:51) il faut
toujours trouver quelque chose et corriger et montrer
comment c'est. Ouais, (15:56) on a de la chance, on n'a pas
ça en France. Mais si, quand même, il y a du racisme en
France. (16:01) Je suis d'origine asiatique, je le ressens
parfois.
Donc, est-ce que ça se parle en (16:06) cours d'anglais
aussi, la situation en France? Comment on fait ça en
France? Qu'est-ce que (16:14) notre histoire de colonialisme,
etc.? Est-ce que c'est... Non, c'est que les autres et pas une
(16:23) réflexion sur nous, quoi.
Là, ils font ça en histoire géo, ils vont faire ça en histoire
(16:29) géo. Justement, je veux bien travailler là-dessus
éventuellement avec les professeurs (16:33) d'histoire géo
en EPI, mais pour le moment, non. Parce que moi, dans mon
quartier, c'est (16:40) beaucoup d'immigrants turcs. Donc, si
on va parler de racisme, ils ne veulent pas aborder (16:49)
parce qu'ils veulent l'intégrer. Mais il y a des élèves quand
même, ouais, il y a des gens qui (16:54) sont pas sympas,
mais bon. En fait, oui, mais en cours, en anglais, on n'aborde
pas ou un peu (17:01) à la léger, comme ça, en parlant en
classe, mais pas vraiment. Maintenant, vous allez parler de
(17:07) racisme en France, mais pas forcément.
Oui, d'accord. Et donc, on a parlé un peu de la (17:14)
Britannique, l'Australie, les États-Unis, mais est-ce qu'il y a
d'autres pays culturels qui (17:19) sont représentés? Est-ce
que, pour vous, ce que vous avez vu, c'est que des pays
anglophones?
(17:26) Oui, mais l'Irlande, j'en peux plus de l'Irlande non
plus. J'ai une collègue qui adore l'Irlande, (17:31) c'est tous
les ans l'Irlande, j'en peux plus, toujours la même chose. Là,
par exemple, (17:35) on avait fait Amsterdam, on a fait un
voyage à Amsterdam et là, j'ai fait une séquence sur (17:43)
l'Amsterdam et comment l'anglais est important pour le
français à apprendre, parce qu'en Europe, (17:52) en fait,
malgré tout, malgré tout, tout le monde parle anglais. À la
limite, ils ont appris (17:58) l'anglais, donc ils peuvent
communiquer en anglais. Mais notre programme, c'est
présenter (18:04) la culture anglophone, donc c'est le
Canada, les États-Unis, l'Afrique du Sud, l'Australie, (18:10)
jamais l'Afrique, l'Afrique du Sud, l'Afrique noire, non. Donc,
voilà.
(18:16) OK, donc, votre avis, est qu'on doit apprendre aussi
les pays non anglophones à nos élèves?
(18:26) Ben, c'est le programme, il faut trouver dans quel
contexte, qu'est-ce qu'on veut vous montrer, (18:33) en fait.
Et notre vision, c'est que nos élèves voyagent dans ces pays
et parlent anglais. Donc, (18:41) par exemple, on a fait
Amsterdam, on a fait à la fin de notre livret, est-ce que vous
avez (18:45) parlé en anglais? Parce que nous, c'était un
voyage en groupe et il y en a qui nous ont répondu (18:51)
non, on n'a pas parlé en anglais. Donc, imaginez tous nos
programmes en anglais. Ils ont écouté en (18:56) anglais,
mais ils n'ont pas parlé en anglais. Donc, c'est quelque
chose qu'on doit changer. Il (19:04) faut qu'on réfléchisse làdedans pour savoir comment faire parler nos élèves, qu'ils
aient (19:09) cette confiance. Oui, mais le programme
national crée cette vision que l'anglais c'est parler dans
(19:14) les pays anglophones et que ça... Oui, j'essaie,
j'essaie.
Mais c'est vrai, ce matin, j'ai vu un (19:23) français avec un
italien. Ils parlaient l'anglais tous les deux.
Oui, mais c'est marrant parce que (19:33) moi, ma collègue
d'allemand, elle amène ses élèves passer une semaine en
Allemagne et ils parlent (19:39) plus anglais. Quand ils
reviennent, ils parlent super bien l'anglais. Donc, je suis
contente, mais elle, elle n'est pas contente. (19:45) Mais je
crois que ça devient très important. Dans mon coin, ce n'est
pas encore (19:52) concret pour les élèves que l'anglais est
important. Surtout, ils ne voyagent pas beaucoup, ils n'ont
pas (19:58) de moyens pour voyager. Donc, mais comme ils
ont TikTok, ils ont Instagram ou le jeu, ils commencent à
jouer avec... (20:11) ils sont gamers, donc ils parlent
l'anglais. Donc, ils commencent à se rendre compte que c'est
important pour (20:19) communiquer ailleurs. Mais c'est du
travail, vraiment du travail, parce que les gens, (20:24) « ah
oui, non, je veux être mécanicien, ça ne sert à rien. » Je dis,
oui, mais les manuels, les mots d'emploi sont en anglais
parfois. (20:32) « Ah oui, c'est vrai, ok. Mais voilà.
(20:36) Et là, on a touché le programme national. Est-ce que
vous pouvez parler un peu plus sur comment le programme
impacte votre pédagogie, par exemple?
(20:47) Mais normalement, on est libre. On a les libertés
pédagogiques. Sauf qu'on est inspecté, là, franchement, il
102
faut qu'on suit ça à la nette. (20:56) Mais il nous dit... Je crois
que c'est une question aussi de confiance. Je n'ose pas trop
sortir du chemin tracé, parce que j'ai mes collègues. (21:11)
J'ai mes collègues qui regardent, et aussi les parents, qui me
disent à quoi ça sert, puisqu'on apprend. Si on parle de New
York, à quoi bon? (21:19) Donc, je dis, non, on fait rêver,
parce que New York, quand même, c'est super important.
Donc, oui, Amsterdam, je l'ai fait toute seule. (21:27) Et
surtout post-inspection, c'est ce que je vais dire. Si mon
inspectrice regarde ça, c'est pas... Mais on est quand même
guidé, parce qu'on est inspecté. (21:36) Donc, voilà. Ils ont
des choses à apprendre, les élèves. Par exemple, j'ai reçu
sur Manhattan, au New York, parce qu'il y avait le bac il y a
quelques années. (21:48) Et les élèves du bac d'anglais ne
savaient pas où se trouvait Manhattan. Ils ont 18 ans et ils ne
savent pas où se trouve Manhattan. (22:01) Ça, ça fait
pleurer quand on dit « moi, je vous ai appris ça en 5e », mais
ils ne retiennent pas. Ce n'est vraiment pas concret, c'est
abstrait l'anglais parfois. (22:13) Donc, les programmes,
effectivement, m'aident à amener mes élèves à un but de
tout ce qu'ils doivent savoir, parce que moi, je vois que les
collèges... (22:23) Après, je dis « maintenant, ils vont avoir le
lycée, et au lycée, ils doivent apprendre tout ça ». Donc, moi,
j'essaie d'avoir une vision globale de ce qu'on entend d'eux,
et après, je suis les programmes. (22:35) Et donc, est-ce que
ça me rend libre ? Oui, je suis libre de faire ce que je veux
faire, mais pas forcément de sortir du chemin tracé, parce
qu'il y a le minimum qu'ils doivent apprendre. (22:49) Et avec
le budget de l'éducation nationale, on a très peu d'heures
maintenant. (22:57) Parce que, par exemple, quand j'ai
commencé en 6e, j'ai terminé tous les programmes du 6e
dans l'année. J'ai fait sept chapitres. (23:06) Ah, j'étais super
fière de moi. Maintenant, j'ai la chance, je termine quatre
chapitres. Quatre.
(23:13) Parce qu'il y a moins d'heures d'enseignement ?
Oui, moins d'heures. (23:17)
C'est quatre heures par semaine, non ?
Trois heures. (23:21) Donc, là, c'est trois heures. Trois
heures, moi, même pas, parce que c'est 55 minutes. (23:26)
Donc, le temps qu'on fait l'appel, on regarde ce qu'on a fait
hier, « Ah, je ne me rappelle plus ». Là, le vrai cours, c'est 40
minutes. Donc, 40 minutes x 3, ce n'est pas beaucoup.
(23:39) Oui, je comprends. Et quand vous parlez des
attentes du programme national, ça, c'est que des attentes
linguistiques par rapport aux notions grammaticales, du
vocabulaire clé, etc ? (23:51)
Normalement, c'est tout. C'est tout d'un coup. C'est le
vocabulaire. (23:56) Mais si vous faites le programme 6e,
donc ensemble 6e, c'est un niveau. Ensuite, 5e, 4e, 3e, on
refait le même. (24:07) Donc, on refait, on ajoute, on refait,
on revoit, on revoit. C'est vraiment... On fait ça pendant trois
ans.
(24:15) Des répétitions ?
(24:17) Un peu. C'est un peu comme des Lego blocks. On
commence, oui, mais après, on va revoir, mais on va jeter un
petit coup. Ensuite, à la fin, ils ont maîtrisé. C'est comme les
verbes irrégulières. (24:28) Je commence en 5e. Moi, j'ai dit,
c'est pour donner des points de plus. Mais même en 3e, ils
ne retiennent pas. Donc, toujours la même liste. Ça n'a pas
changé. (24:41) Mais ils ne retiennent pas. Donc, je crois que
parce qu'ils ne l'utilisent pas, ils ne retiennent pas du tout.
(24:47) Donc, voilà. C'est plus que j'ai encore... J'ai pardonné
tous les sons. Je suis désolée. Je ne sais pas si vous avez
compris ce que j'ai dit.
(24:54) Non, je comprends complètement. Donc, qu'est-ce
qui doit changer, à votre avis, pour l'enseignement d'anglais
au niveau de collège ?
(25:02) Je crois qu'il faut vraiment une vraie politique,
comme ils ont fait pour le français et les maths. Parce que
j'adore quand ils disent, ah oui, c'est très, très important,
l'anglais. (25:14) Mais pour ne pas vous donner d'heures
plus parce qu'on n'a pas le budget. Donc, je crois qu'il faut
vraiment une vraie politique du gouvernement, du ministre de
l'éducation pour dire que l'anglais, c'est vraiment très
important. (25:31) Il donne des heures pour ça. Change le
nombre de classes. Parce que là, par exemple, imaginez le
cauchemar. C'est l'année prochaine, dans ma classe, on
aura au moins 30 élèves, 30 élèves. (25:44) Donc, imaginez
déjà, what did you do yesterday ? Pour faire parler 30 élèves,
c'est juste une phrase, ils y maîtrisent même. Donc, ce n'est
pas comme avant que j'avais des élèves de 20, 22. (25:58)
C'était super parce qu'on pouvait vraiment faire des
échanges. Là, c'est, allez, dépêchez-vous, dépêchez-vous,
qu'est-ce que vous avez fait hier ? (26:05) Donc, ensuite, il
ne faut pas te parler, plus parler. Vraiment, il faut, s'ils disent,
c'est important qu'ils fassent tout pour montrer que c'est
vraiment important. (26:16) Donc, choix quoi ? Des classes
plus petites et plus d'heures. Plus d'heures, 4 heures à la
limite ou 3h30. Ok, d'accord, j'ai négocié pour 3h30. (26:26)
Au moins, ça veut dire que physiquement, les élèves vont
être dans la classe. Ils vont dire, tiens, ok, c'est rabâchage
tout le temps, tout le temps, on va le faire. (26:35) Donc,
c'est vraiment ça. C'est pire, mais je vois les niveaux, c'est
une catastrophe. Quand j'ai commencé, j'ai poussé les
élèves à fond. (26:45) Et là, ils savent plus mémoriser parce
qu'avec les vidéos et tout, avec tous les écrans, ils savent
plus. Ils savent plus mémoriser. Ils ne voient pas l'intérêt de
mémoriser. (26:57) Parce que de toute façon, on a
l'intelligence artificielle pour faire ça. Ils googlent tout, de
toute façon. Donc, il y a ça. Même le travail à la maison, je
ne demande plus parce que je sais que c'est soit maman ou
c'est Google qui va le faire. (27:09) Donc, je trouve une vraie
politique, vraiment qu'ils disent, ok, on va faire des classes
plus petites, on va faire plus d'heures. Et je pense que c'est
la seule façon qu'on va vraiment réussir. (27:24) Donc, aussi,
je ne sais pas, peut-être à la télé mettre des films en anglais,
ça serait trop bien. Les Hollandais font ça, donc les
Allemands font ça.
(27:37) Non, je comprends complètement.
Qu'est-ce que vous en pensez, vous?
C'est contradictoire que le gouvernement encourage
l'approche communicative, mais après, il donne 30 élèves à
un prof. Comment vous pouvez faire des communications en
cours avec 30 élèves? (27:58) Là, c'est juste, c'est trop de
monde, je suis complètement d'accord.
(28:02) Et n'oubliez pas qu'on a tous les niveaux. J'ai une
classe avec 5 dyslexiques, ensuite avec tous les problèmes
de comportement. Donc, d'imaginer déjà, ça bouge partout,
ils ont 30, c'est pas possible. (28:20) J'ai 28 là, 28 avec 5 qui
n'arrivent pas à suivre parce qu'ils sont dyslexiques et
l'anglais, c'est trop, trop dur pour les dyslexiques. Ensuite, il y
a ceux qui ont des problèmes, qui ne peuvent pas se tenir
assis. Donc, on fait, stop, ok, vous faites ça, attends, je vais
faire 3, 5 évaluations différentes. (28:42) Et là, ils doivent dire
à l'oral, je suis toute seule avec 23 élèves encore dans la
salle, c'est une catastrophe.
(28:51) Je comprends, c'est vraiment pas l'idéal. Et donc,
même question pour les manuels, qu'est-ce qu'ils peuvent
faire de mieux?
(29:01) Je crois que, moi vraiment, je suis pour qu'on achète
les workbooks des manuels. Mais en France, comme ils
détestent payer pour quelque chose, c'est-à-dire que
l'éducation doit être gratuite, on ne peut pas demander aux
parents d'acheter des manuels. Donc, on fait, et n'hésitez
pas pour ça, on fait des photocopies des manuels, en fait.
Donc, on fait exactement pareil. (29:26) Mais je trouve que
les manuels doivent être à jour avec toutes les exigences du
programme. Ensuite, que ce soit abordable pour les élèves,
qu'ils puissent consulter facilement. De toute façon, même
s'ils peuvent consulter facilement, on ne va pas les faire si on
103
n'insiste pas dessus. (29:47) Je trouve que c'est très bien.
Moi, je suis pour les manuels, en fait. J'ai mes collègues qui
disent que ça ne sert à rien. Mais oui, parce que pour que les
parents puissent suivre ce qu'on fait, c'est pour ça que j'ai fait
les manuels aussi, parce qu'ils peuvent suivre dans les
manuels.
30 minutes +
P5 = (0:00) Et ensuite, c'est expliqué dans les manuels, donc
moi, je trouve qu'il faut juste réviser (0:06) que ce soit à jour
qu'on arrête de parler, par exemple, de la reine, parce que
c'est (0:11) le roi Charles, par exemple, déjà, ou oui, voilà, je
crois que c'est ça, j'ai réfléchi, (0:19) parce que moi j'ai un
nouveau, mais les manuels doivent aussi, ce serait bien
qu'ils présentent (0:23) au professeur comment utiliser les
manuels, s'il, par exemple, achète, sort à nouveau, (0:30)
Nathan sort à nouveau, il doit venir au, présenter, on puisse
l'utiliser pour dire (0:37) « ben tiens, pourquoi j'utilisais pas
les manuels que j'utilise depuis 10 ans, que je connais (0:40)
par cœur », donc je crois que ça sera bien, ça sera un vrai
échange, on va dire « tiens, (0:46) c'est pas si mal en fait »,
parce que nous on reçoit, ben je sais pas, peut-être on va
(0:49) les choisir, mais non, après il faut y être, parce que le
roi confecté, oh c'est pas mal, (0:56) mais on a 5 minutes
pour le faire, pour décider, donc je crois que c'est ça, je sais
pas si (1:02) ça vous aide.
(1:03) Non, très bien, c'est tout à fait intéressant d'avoir une
perspective de plus, et donc c'est (1:12) toutes mes
questions pour aujourd'hui, vous avez très bien répondu à
tous, donc merci (1:18) beaucoup.
(1:19) Non, je vous en prie, mais je sais, je pars dans tous
les sens, ça c'est moi, donc mon (1:25) travail...
(1:25) Bon, après c'est pour moi d'analyser tous les mots,
toutes les phrases, mais il n'y a (1:31) pas de soucis, non.
(1:32) D'accord, ben écoutez, si vous avez une question de
plus, vous me dites, d'accord, c'est un (1:37) plaisir de vous
aider.
(1:38) C'est très gentil, je vous remercie beaucoup, vraiment.
(1:42) Je vous en prie, et bonne continuation, bon courage,
C'est gentil
(1:48) vous allez rester pendant l'été ?
(1:50) Ah oui, oui, je reste en France, moi, ouais.
(1:53) Chouette, profitez-en bien, d'accord ?
(1:55) Ok, merci.
(1:56) Bon courage, allez, ciao, ciao. (
1:58) Merci, bonne journée à vous, au revoir.
(1:59) A vous aussi, au revoir.
Notes







She believes in a strict curriculum to assist and
motivate students.
She believes this should be presented in a
textbook and that workbooks should be used.
As a former translator, her pedagogy places a lot
of importance on grammar and she insists it‟s
necessary and also the French way.
She believes in non-native speaker representation
Authenticity of content is a must.
Cultural content is often too negative.
Intercultural communication does not seem to be a
priority.
Participant 6
Participant 6 has been an English teacher in Turkiye for 15
years, across all age groups.
This interview took place on Zoom on the April 30. 2024.
(0:00) We might start by, can you please present your job,
where you work, (0:07) and your experience in English
teaching so far?
Okay, well, I have been teaching (0:17) for almost about 19
years. I teach English as a foreign language to Turkish
students. (0:24) My students are high school level, and well,
first I started with the secondary level and (0:32) the primary
level, so I know all levels. I have some experiences for all of
them, (0:38) and I like working a lot. I also got my MA degree
on ELT, and I'm still an action researcher, (0:53) so to speak,
and at the same time, I have some other studies related to
STEAM, (1:02) science, technology, engineering, art, and
mathematics, integrating them into English (1:07) language
teaching, CLIL also, and P4C, philosophy for children. I use
lots of different methodologies (1:18) in my classes. I am
given some courses like selective English lessons, that
means I don't (1:30) need to follow an exact curriculum, you
know, the national curriculum. I'm freer than other teachers
(1:40) because I can choose what to teach and what
approach or what materials, sorry, very different (1:51) kind
of materials I can use, different kind of approach I can use,
so I'm much more free (1:58) when compared to other
colleagues.
Yeah, okay, no, perfect, and could you just describe quickly
(2:07) how it works in Turkey? You mentioned primary,
secondary, and then high school, (2:12) so I think secondary,
what age would that be then of students?
Okay, in our country, students start (2:21) to go to school at
six, and till 11, they are in the primary level. Between 11 to
14, they are in (2:30) secondary, middle, low secondary
schools, and after 15 to 18, they are in the lower secondary
group, (2:40) sorry, upper secondary group, and we start
teaching English as a foreign language at the second (2:50)
level, second grade of primary school. Mostly, they learn
about general English, you know, (2:57) the grammar, the
vocabulary, and a little bit reading, but most of the other skills
are (3:07) not taught when compared to grammar and
vocabulary. You know, speaking especially is very rarely
(3:18) taught. Well, actually, the skill that we called Cinderella
is listening, but in Turkey, it's (3:28) speaking, because we
have most listening lessons, but hardly speaking classes,
you know, and that's (3:40) why, although our students have
classes from the second grade till 12th grade, if they
graduated (3:50) or going to college or university, they have
English lessons, but they are not very good at (3:56)
speaking or using the language, you know. Their level should
be B2, according to CFRI, but (4:07) in reality, it's, I can say,
A2+.
Okay, okay. Yeah, it sounds quite similar to how it works in
(4:18) France, although in France, yeah, there's very little
English education at primary level, (4:27) and then it starts in
middle school. The real kind of obligatory English study starts
in middle (4:34) school, and so once students get to that age,
they have a very low level, as you can imagine, (4:41) and so
in my dissertation, I'm looking mostly at what we call collège
in France, which is (4:46) middle school level, and so do you
have some experience of teaching at that level?
(4:54) Yes, I did, actually, but just for four years, and it was
very different when compared to (5:05) high school students,
because they are, how can I say, they [middle school
students] are more engaging, (5:12) they are enthusiastic to
learn about English lessons, especially when it comes to with
the (5:19) games and the songs and lots of funny activities,
104
you know, and what can I say about middle school, (5:30) but
unfortunately, we gave a very limited information about
English, and that's why maybe (5:40) when they come to
high school and seeing the more difficult tasks, more difficult
topics, (5:48) they start to get away from English, you know,
and they more focus on the science (6:02) lessons, the
maths lessons, I don't know why, but it happens like that.
(6:09) Yeah, yeah, so that must be, so you're talking about
motivation, (6:14) is that coming from the, you know, the
national curriculum that's kind of (6:20) telling them that
maths and science is more important than English?
(6:26) Yes, unfortunately, it's real for Turkey. It is actually
important to speak another language (6:35) in Turkey,
because if you want to have a good job, besides the
knowledge about your child, (6:46) speaking a foreign
language is also important, but most of the students decide
to learn another (6:58) language after they graduate from the
university, you know, when they get their job and (7:05) in
their very first years, they start to, they try to learn English,
but time is passing quickly and (7:16) human brain
sometimes can be very tired. It's very difficult to learn another
language after that age.
(7:26) Yeah, they enter, I mean, it's the same in France, they
enter their professional career (7:31) and quickly they say,
oh, “if I had learned English when I was at school, (7:37) I
would have more opportunities”, right?
It's the same.
You mentioned at primary level, (7:43) it's very vocabulary,
grammar based. Does that change once it gets to middle
school?
(7:50) No, actually. In primary, lower secondary and upper
secondary, we all have mostly grammar topics (7:59) and
really hard vocabulary at the end of the high school,
especially in the 11th and 12th grade. (8:06) Most of the time,
I also need to use a dictionary to teach the vocabulary most
of the time. And, (8:15) well, grammar is always in our life. In
the fourth grade, the last stage of primary school, (8:26) we
start to teach present simple tense and every year from now
on that, we're still teaching (8:36) present simple tense.
Approximately five or six years, they learn about this, but at
the end, (8:45) they cannot use it. I don't know where's the
problem, but it's something like that. Yes. (8:51) Grammar
and vocabulary is very… too much, you know.
(8:57) So where does that come from then? Is that from the
curriculum? Is it from textbooks that are used? (9:04) What's
dictating that that is the pedagogy that's used in Turkey?
(9:09) Yes, it's not the curriculum, actually, and it's not the
textbooks because, well, (9:17) how many years ago? Sorry,
three years ago, I was in the committee who prepares
textbooks to (9:28) public schools. Yes, we prepared some
textbooks and we used lots of skills activities in that book
(9:37) and it was distributed across the country. But teachers,
I believe, find it easier to teach (9:49) grammar and
vocabulary instead of teaching skills because most of the
teachers are still (9:58) not good at speaking, not good at
listening English, you know, and teaching grammar (10:06) in
the L1, of course, is easier than that. So most of the teachers
prefer this way. (10:15) It's not good. It's not good in the 21st
century because there are lots of new approaches, (10:20)
but they don't know. Lots of new materials, especially on the
internet with the technology, (10:28) but they don't know
about this. They don't want to train themselves. They don't
want to educate (10:36) themselves. They don't follow the
new era's needs or opportunities, you know, and I don't
blame the (10:44) curriculum and the textbooks in this case
because they are really written by some professional (10:51)
teachers. But teachers at the school don't use them. They
just like skipping most of the listening (11:00) activities, you
know.
Is that the same for young teachers that are getting the
teacher training (11:05) in Turkey? Is it the same for young
teachers with everyone?
Yeah, you're right, but it's not like (11:13) that. Well, in
Turkey, at the first years of your profession, you have to go to
the south part of (11:26) Turkey. And in the south part of
Turkey, there are lots of different ethnic groups that they
(11:35) most of the time don't prefer to learn another
language. They hardly speak Turkish. (11:42) Most of them
use their, you know, their own language they prefer.
And that's why new teachers (11:49) with lots of new ideas
and lots of enthusiasm… it kills it, you know. And the
conditions in that (12:02) places, the people lives there, I
mean the parents especially, make it very hard to realize
these (12:14) young teachers' dreams. And when they come
to the west part, they're nearly about 10-year teachers.
(12:29) And some things have gone.
Yeah, it's interesting. I'd like to go back to textbooks. (12:39)
So you worked on the government-published textbook, yeah?
Yes.
Can you describe what that looks like (12:47) for me? (12:51)
I can show it to you.
Yeah, great.
(13:22) I'm sorry, Daniel, they're not here. They're at home.
(13:25) I have electronic form of some of the activities. If
you'd like to, I can send them to you.
Yeah, (13:42) sure.
Well, I can say that we use CEFR schedule, and that means,
well, I worked for the middle school part and A2 level. We
followed the (13:58) learning outcomes in that program
[textbook]. And we use, yes, we use grammar and
vocabulary, but (14:07) [in a] very limited way. We just put
the rules there and maybe one or two activities [that] tie
about the grammar, (14:18) but we use the vocabulary part in
reading most of the time. After reading, we have a listening
(14:27) activity. And in that activity, we use some videos from
YouTube, BBC, or that kind of very popular (14:38) internet
websites. And after then, we put a little bit pronunciation part
to talk about the (14:50) very basic level, in the very basic
level. And then we put some speaking activities. (14:57) They
are mostly detailed in the teacher's book, actually, and a
writing part. The writing parts (15:06) mostly are about
projects, group or individual projects students prepare about
a topic. (15:14) And this is the writing part of it. In one of the
books, we added a CLIL part. We choose something (15:25)
from another subject and put some activities related to this
subject. And that's all.
(15:33) Okay. And so what kind of topics are present in the
books? I'm very interested in what the (15:41) cultural
content that we show our English students and also
intercultural content as (15:49) well. So how we prepare
students to interact with foreign cultures?
Well, (15:57) there are lots of Turkish cultural contents in our
books because our (16:05) National Educational Ministry
gives importance to our culture, especially for two years.
(16:17) We put lots of Turkish cultural items in the book, the
places from Turkey or the values, (16:26) education kind of
things about that. When it comes to intercultural topics, well,
(16:34) we don't use too much actually. What we do instead,
I put some extra activities in my (16:44) lesson. For example,
have you ever heard mystery Skype? No, I don't know this.
No, you don't know. (16:52) Well, I do this activity in my
classrooms and students love it. Well, I find a partner from
(17:02) another country, a colleague from another country.
We set time and date to meet online, (17:10) but the students
don't know where the other students are from. So this is the
mystery. (17:18) Country is the mystery. They start to ask
each other some questions, yes, no questions especially
(17:24) about the geographical location or famous buildings
or something like that. And they try to (17:31) guess which
country they are talking to. And after that, when they guess
105
the country, (17:39) they start to talk about their cultural
things or school life or after school life, social clubs, (17:47)
etc. And this is maybe the only thing I can do about the
intercultural activities.
(17:55) It's great though. It's a fantastic idea.
(17:59) Yeah, it's a very good idea. The students love it.
They are looking forward to the next (18:06) session.
Yeah, so it becomes a real communication for them, doesn't
it? (18:12) They really see, you know, this is the purpose of
why we're learning English, right? (18:17) Isn't teaching a
language that?
Yes, yeah.
And so you said it does not really exist in textbooks (18:26)
and maybe seeing some kind of reading about a cultural
topic and then reacting (18:32) to that. Is that a common
activity in a Turkish textbook or not really? (18:39) So what
topics do you look at then?
(18:45) Well, while we were preparing the public books in our
committee, we did a survey (18:58) to some pilot schools and
asked their opinion, asked about the students' opinion, what
topic (19:07) would you like to see in the books, what kind of
things are you reading in your free time, (19:13) something
like that, these kind of questions. We collected the responses
and we chose the reading, (19:20) especially for reading
activities, we chose the topics that mostly voted, I can say
like that. (19:30) Well, but there are, of course, some cliche
topics as well, like sports and movies and (19:43) quizzes,
something like that. But in that quizzes part, please don't
misunderstand me, (19:50) it's not about intercultural
quizzes, it's just from Turkish quizzes, the regions, (19:57)
the ______ region quizzes, yes, the eastern part quizzes.
(20:03) Really? In English, learning about Turkey in English,
okay.
(20:09) Yes.
(20:09) Okay, interesting, that's quite different.
What was I going to ask you? (20:17) I lost my train of
thought. (20:22) Yeah, oh, that's right. Is it possible to use
non-government textbooks? Can teachers choose (20:29) to
use international textbooks like a Cambridge or an Oxford or
those kind of more worldwide (20:35) known series?
(20:38) Well, in Turkey, high schools are categorized. Some
of them are taking their students after an (20:48) entrance
exam. We call it LGS entrance to high school and we get
highest points of students (20:59) in this type of schools. And
also private schools, we have, and some of the (21:06) public
schools are taking the students, accepting their students
according to the (21:13) region, the nearest school to home,
they can choose like that. And we have some vocational
(21:22) schools. Well, in this vocational and regional schools,
they can choose their own book. (21:31) What government
gives them, they use it. But in the project schools that we
call, (21:38) it's their name, project school, that their students
come to us after an exam, we can use (21:48) whatever we'd
like to. We can choose Cambridge, we can choose M&M or
Oxford. We can choose (21:57) Pearson, for example. We
are free to choose which book we'd like to use in the
classroom. (22:05) But it very depends on the price, because
our families, most of our families are not in (22:16) good
condition as social economically. And that's why the first
thing that we are looking (22:24) is the price opportunity.
Yeah, it's like that.
(22:30) And so that I think you called it a project school. Is
that where you work now?
(22:36) Yes.
So you're free to choose whatever textbook you want. And
then so is that what you do? Do (22:43) you choose an
international textbook or due to price reasons, you can't? I
mean, (22:48) what do you use as a textbook at the
moment?
Yes. As I said before, I'm not a main course (22:56) teacher
this year. That's why my lesson, because my lesson is a
selective one, I don't use any book. (23:06) I'm more than,
how can I say, I nearly always use the smart board. I have a
smart board in (23:17) my classroom and lots of the materials
are from the internet. I use lots of different kinds (23:24) of
materials, YouTube, TED videos, lots of different things. Web
2.0 tools, even AR and VR (23:36) I use in my classroom.
But other colleagues who are taking the main courses have,
what were they (23:45) using this year? Delta Publishing, you
know, they are using Delta Publishing book (23:54) B1, A2
and B1 level.
(23:59) And how are those different from the from, I guess,
the government curriculums then (24:05) and the government
textbooks? Do you see a big difference in those materials?
(24:11) Yeah, there is not a big difference between the public
or government's book or the private one. (24:19) The
curriculum should be the same. The learning outcomes which
are coming from the CEFR (24:27) are the same.
They must be the same. And what is different?
Well, (24:37) more engaging topics, maybe. In the Oxford or
Cambridge books, you can find many new things, (24:48) you
know, modern things that appeal to our teenage students.
In the public books, well, (24:56) there are still cliche topics,
as I said before, extreme sports, maybe this is the most
engaging (25:03) one for them. And, well, listening is easier
because we have a smart board application of (25:15) these
books from Oxford or Cambridge. And we can use smart
board, but with the public, (25:23) sorry, with the government
book, there is no listening, or there is no smart board
application, (25:30) we have to find it from the internet,
download it and use it. And this is a very tiring thing, (25:37)
actually.
I mean, that's maybe another reason why teachers avoid
(25:45) doing those kind of activities and takes more time for
them. So it's a possibility, right? (25:54) And well, you've
mentioned the CEFR a couple of times, and so it has a big
place in the Turkish (26:02) curriculum. But actually, if you
read the document, which I'm sure you have, (26:07) there is
a strong cultural and intercultural component to that
document. So it seems like (26:15) maybe the Turkish
government is choosing some parts of it [CEFR] that they
want to use and ignoring (26:20) other parts of it.
And exactly. Yeah, exactly.
Right. They do that. Yeah.
And again, it's (26:28) focusing on the linguistic side of it as
well, isn't it? Which is, it's the same thing in France (26:35)
that is happening. And I think it comes down to what you've
talked about, which is, it's easier (26:40) to teach.
Easier to teach. I don't know. But the easier, the less
effective, I think.
Right.
(26:54) Generally, that's how things work, isn't it? The easier
they are, the less effective they will be. (26:59) But yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Listen, we've nearly come up to 30 minutes, (27:04)
______. So I'd like to thank you again so much for giving me
your time this morning. (27:11) Very, very interesting for me
to learn about education in Turkey and English teaching in
(27:17) Turkey and hearing your experience. So it's going to
be a very valuable addition to my research.
(27:26) Good. I'm so happy I helped you.
You absolutely have. So listen, thanks again. You have a
great (27:32) day. Good luck with that Istanbul traffic in the
future. I don't think it will get any better, (27:40) though.
I don't have any hope about that. Thank you very much,
Daniel. And I wish you very good (27:48) luck with your
dissertation. And remember, if you need any help or if any
friend of yours (27:54) needs any help, I'm just right here.
Thanks so much. One last thing I would ask you is, (28:00)
could you maybe send that copy of the textbook that you
have? I'd be very interested in having (28:04) a look.
106
Yes, of course. Please send me your email address and I will
make sure. Thanks so much.
(28:13) OK. Have a great day.
Have a great day.
Bye.
Notes





P6 is a very well researched teacher. She was very
much aware of intercultural topics and was
lamenting the lack of intercultural education in
English teaching in Turkiye. This is helped by her
working in a special type of school where she
doesn‟t have to follow the government curriculum.
Lack of cultural content in textbooks, let alone
intercultural content. In “project” schools teachers
can use international publications but they often
aren‟t used due to their price.
She
creates
Telecollaborations
for
ICC
development which her students love.
Turkish curriculum is too grammar and voab
focused in her opinion. Teachers choose that
pedagogy because they lack confidence in their
own speaking skills, or because it is easier to
teach.
Young teachers get sent to rural areas where they
are met with a disdain for English learning. Theur
confidence suffers and they revert to traditional
pedagogies.
Participant 7
Participant 7 is a college teacher in Bordeaux. Her college is
an Erasmus+ affiliated college and thus her perspective was
unique.
This interview took place in her English classroom in
Bordeaux, at 1p.m on April 30, 2024.
Researcher (0:00) Peut-être on peut commencer avec une
présentation de vous-même, de votre expérience
d'enseignante d'anglais en France et votre poste actuel, etc.
Participant 7 (0:13) Ok, alors je m'appelle ____________, j'ai
42 ans, je suis enseignante depuis 2008, donc enseignante
d'anglais, j'ai commencé ma carrière dans le nord de la
France, à Lille. (0:29) Voilà, j'ai passé 11 ans à Lille et depuis
2017, j'enseigne à Bordeaux, dans ce collège. (0:36) J'ai
toujours enseigné dans des établissements dits REP+, ou
REP, voilà.
(0:43) Ok, j'ai pas entendu ça, donc c'est quoi exactement ?
(0:49) Alors, en fait, les établissements en France sont
classés et ce classement se fait en fonction du niveau social
des élèves. (0:58) Il y a des régions où il y a beaucoup plus
d'établissements REP+, et des régions où il y en a moins,
dans l'académie de Bordeaux, en l'occurrence, il y en a
moins par exemple que dans l'académie de Lille. (1:09) Et
alors ensuite, quand on est dans ces établissements-là, ce
sont les conditions de travail qui changent en fait. (1:14)
Donc, par exemple, pour les enseignants, il peut y avoir une
différence de temps de cours donné, une différence de
salaire aussi, (1:24) puisqu'il y a des primes quand on
travaille en établissement REP+, en REP aussi, et dans les
établissements dits, on va dire, non classés, je pense qu'on
pourrait dire comme ça. (1:33) Là par contre, il n'y a pas ces
primes-là, par exemple.
(1:35) D'accord, oui.
(1:37) J'ai toujours travaillé dans des établissements classés.
(1:41) Et donc maintenant, vous êtes prof de combien de
classes ici en collège?
(1:47) Alors ici, j'ai deux classes de troisième, deux classes
de cinquième, deux classes de sixième, et une classe
d'options, l'option LCE, langue et culture européenne.
(2:02) Ok, super. (2:04) Et moi, je m'intéresse sur les
matériels utilisés en cours, sur les manuels, s'il y a d'autres
matériaux que vous utilisez en cours, qu'est-ce que vous
utilisez ici?
(2:15) Alors, on a des manuels, on a des collections de
manuels selon les niveaux, après libre à nous de les utiliser
ou pas. (2:24) Moi, je pioche dans plusieurs manuels et je
préfère faire mes propres séquences, mais les manuels
m'aident beaucoup pour m'inspirer, par exemple, ou pour
trouver des ressources pédagogiques. (2:37) Ensuite, le
matériel, voilà, on a de la chance dans cet établissement
aussi, puisque toutes nos classes sont équipées de
vidéoprojecteurs, d'un ordinateur à chaque fois. (2:49) Voilà,
au niveau du matériel pédagogique, on a aussi une salle
informatique, justement, c'est là où je vais juste après, avec
des casques, audio, voilà.
(2:58) Ok, et qu'est-ce que vous aimez comme matériel?
(3:01) Qu'est-ce que j'aime bien, moi?
(3:06) C'est quel type de contenu ou d'activité?
(3:09) Ah, le contenu, alors c'est des enregistrements audio,
des extraits de textes.
(3:17) Qu'est-ce qu'on a comme texte?
Des articles de journaux. (3:21) Alors après, on peut passer
sur tout ce qu'on veut, des chansons, des extraits de
poèmes, des extraits de films aussi, également. (3:28) Tout
dépend de comment on construit nos séquences, en fait.
(3:32) Donc moi, je jongle un petit peu avec tout ce que je
trouve au sujet du thème que j'aborde.
(3:38) Et là, c'est des thèmes centrés sur quoi? C'est centré
sur un pays, une culture, un thème plus général comme la
technologie, le sport?
(3:54) Alors moi, personnellement, je pars sur ce que je veux
que les élèves soient capables de réaliser. (4:03) En fait,
mon idée, c'est qu'ils fassent de l'anglais pour communiquer
plus tard. (4:09) Donc, par exemple, je ne sais pas, en
sixième, quand ils arrivent en début d'année, l'idée, c'est de
leur faire prendre connaissance des consignes de la classe,
de comment on va se parler les uns les autres. (4:20) Et je
me dis bon, ben voilà, il faut qu'ils soient capables de me
dire, est-ce que je peux me lever? Est-ce que je peux aller à
la poubelle? (4:28) Est-ce que je peux donner la date? Ils
donnent la date, etc. (4:31) Donc là, par exemple, ça va être
une séquence un petit peu plus lexicale autour de l'école.
(4:36) En troisième, par contre, là, en ce moment, on est
beaucoup plus avec des élèves de troisième. (4:40) On
essaie de débattre, de parler de sujets de société, de sujets
qui les intéressent aussi à chaque fois, vraiment que ça les
intéresse. (4:46) Et donc là, en ce moment, on est en train de
parler des droits civiques aux Etats-Unis. (4:51) Donc là,
c'est centré sur les Etats-Unis. (4:53) Par exemple, tout
dépend du niveau qu'on a en face de nous et de l'objectif
qu'on veut atteindre. (4:59) En fait, c'est un petit peu ça.
(5:03) Et aussi, quelque chose qui m'intéresse, c'est un peu
le thème de mon mémoire. (5:10) C'est le contenu
interculturel qu'on a en cours d'anglais. (5:13) Est-ce que,
c'est-à-dire, comment on prépare nos élèves de parler avec
d'autres cultures? (5:21) Est-ce que vous avez parlé de la
communication?
(5:25) Oui.
(5:25) Est-ce qu'il y a cette partie considérée aussi comme
l'interculturalité d'apprendre nos élèves?
(5:33) L'interculturalité?
(5:34) Oui.
(5:35) Donc en faisant le lien entre...
(5:37) C'est vraiment l'échange interculturel qu'on fait avec
d'autres cultures.
107
(5:44) Imagine que je sois Australien, je n'ai pas la même
connaissance, la même façon de penser au monde que
vous, par exemple.
(5:52) Bien sûr. (5:53) Exactement. (5:53) Alors ça [IC], on
essaie de leur donner des éléments culturels. (5:58) Mais
c'est vrai que moi, c'est un reproche que je me fais souvent.
(6:01) C'est d'être beaucoup plus centré sur la
communication. (6:05) Vraiment le fait d'être capable de
parler, de lire, de comprendre. (6:10) Et ensuite, là-dedans
vont s'insérer des éléments de la culture du pays en
question. (6:16) Et alors, ce que j'adore cette année par
contre, ce qui est vraiment génial, c'est cette fameuse option.
(6:22) Parce que l'option LCE, là, c'est parce que... (6:26)
Alors, ça a toute une histoire. (6:29) Mais c'est parce que
dans ce collège, nous, on a aussi voulu s'ouvrir sur l'Europe.
(6:34) Donc là, cette année, on a demandé notre
accréditation Erasmus+. (6:40) Et du coup, parce que
justement, en fait, ce qu'on veut, c'est vraiment échanger
avec des gens, avec des vraies personnes. (6:47) Et puis, on
veut aussi que nos élèves soient capables de découvrir
l'Europe et de découvrir les spécificités des pays, (6:53) les
coutumes des gens, comment ça se passe là-bas, comment
on va à l'école en Italie, en Irlande, n'importe où. (7:01) Et
donc justement, avec Erasmus, ça nous permet d'avoir des
fonds pour le faire au sein de l'Europe. (7:06) Et du coup,
avec cette option, là, on va beaucoup plus en parler, de
l'interculturalité, de la culture. (7:12) Parce que pendant ce
cours d'options [LCE], je ne fais pas de grammaire, je ne fais
pas de vocabulaire. (7:18) C'est vraiment, tiens, aujourd'hui,
on va parler de ça, on va parler des institutions européennes,
comment ça marche, d'où ça vient, voilà.
(7:26) Et comment ça marche d'entrer en cours comme ça ?
C'est les élèves qui choisissent de faire cette option ?
(7:33) Oui, c'est eux qui choisissent à partir de la quatrième.
C'est tout nouveau, parce que ça a commencé cette année.
(7:38) Donc, nos premiers élèves...
(7:39) Dans cet collège ou en France en général ?
(7:41) Alors, dans ce collège, parce que, et c'est grâce au
chef d'établissement qu'on a, parce que ça faisait quelques
années que déjà on y pensait. (7:50) Mais, ouvrir une option,
c'est ouvrir un budget, en fait. (7:54) Donc, pour les chefs
d'établissement, c'est des choix qu'ils doivent faire. (8:00) Et
ici, M. Hayad nous a permis de le faire, parce qu'il trouvait
que c'était... j'imagine qu'il croyait en notre projet. (8:09) Et
du coup, c'est un peu grâce à lui aussi que les choses ont
été impulsées, on va dire. (8:15) Et dans certains autres
collèges de Bordeaux, ça existe depuis un petit moment
déjà.
(8:20) Ça veut dire que tous les profs de matières différentes
se battent devant le chef d'établissement pour... [dire] (8:30)
« Ah, c'est nous qui devons prendre l'option cette année ? «
(8:34) Ben, ils ne se battent pas, mais dans un établissement
comme le nôtre, par exemple, il y a aussi d'autres options.
(8:40) Et ces options, en fait, le chef d'établissement, il doit
les financer. (8:43) Donc, il doit dire, bon ben voilà, je veux
bien qu'il y ait une heure d'option de ça, une heure d'option
de ça. (8:49) Après, il ne peut pas non plus en créer 50 000.
(8:52) Et il faut qu'il y ait aussi des candidats. (8:54) Et il faut,
j'imagine aussi, qu'il y ait pas des résultats, mais des projets
qui vont avec. (9:00) Par exemple, je pense que notre chef
d'établissement a été d'accord de mettre en place cette
option aussi, (9:05) parce qu'il a vu qu'on se battait pour
demander l'accréditation Erasmus+, et il s'est dit, bon ben
voilà, c'est cohérent. (9:13) Après, il y a des options
sportives, il y a d'autres options. (9:16) Mais en effet, il doit
les financer. (9:19) Et tout financement, ça se fait au
détriment d'autres choses aussi, des fois. (9:23) Donc, c'est
des choix d'établissement.
(9:26) Oui, et pour le cours d'anglais normal, si on peut dire,
comment c'est que le programme national impacte ce que
vous faites en cours ?
(9:36) Alors, nous, on nous demande de... (9:39) On n'a pas
vraiment de programme à suivre à la lettre. (9:43) On nous
demande de mener nos élèves vers un certain niveau. (9:48)
Donc, par exemple, à la fin de la troisième, les élèves doivent
avoir validé le niveau A2. (9:54) Ça vous dit quelque chose ?
(9:56) Et donc, ils doivent valider ce niveau en langue
vivante. (10:00) Voilà. (10:01) Et donc, à partir de là, pour
valider ce niveau A2, il y a des thèmes [dans le PN], je crois,
qu'on doit aborder. (10:07) Je ne les connais plus trop.
(10:08) Mais c'est pour ça que moi, je me base un petit peu
aussi au manuel scolaire. (10:13) Je sais qu'au début, c'est
un petit peu tout ce qui est autour de soi, autour de
l'environnement proche. (10:19) Et puis, plus ça va jusqu'à la
troisième, plus ça s'étend, en fait. (10:23) Voilà. (10:24) Mais
on n'a pas de... (10:26) On ne nous dit pas, tiens, par
exemple, à la fin de la sixième, les élèves doivent maîtriser,
je ne sais pas, au niveau grammaire, le présent, le présent
simple, etc. (10:35) Oui, c'est plus général. (10:36) C'est
beaucoup plus général. (10:37) Et rien ne nous empêche non
plus, par exemple, de parler au passé avec nos élèves de
sixième. (10:41) Donc, on est quand même assez libre, quoi.
(10:45) J'ai vu un document publié par l'Académie de
Bordeaux qui disait que c'est 45% des collégiens qui
n'arrivent pas à atteindre un niveau A2.
(10:56) OK.
(10:56) En Nouvelle-Aquitaine.
(10:58) D'accord.
(10:58) Qu‟en pensez-vous des raisons pourquoi ? Parce
que c'est quand même beaucoup ? (11:04) Si l'objectif c'est
A2 pour les collégiens, c'est quand même presque un sur
deux qui n'arrivent pas. (11:12) Donc, quelles sont les
raisons? Qu'est-ce que vous voyez de votre expérience?
(11:20) Eh bien, il y a quand même des raisons.
(11:25) C'est complexe, je sais.
(11:26) Non, mais du coup, il y a les conditions
d'apprentissage [pour le niveau bas d‟élèves], en fait. (11:32)
On enseigne des langues vivantes. (11:35) Par exemple, en
langue vivante, on a très peu de possibilités de travailler en
groupe. (11:41) Donc, tout ce qu'on doit transmettre, on doit
le transmettre à une classe entière, à une classe avec 25
élèves la plupart du temps. (11:48) Alors, par exemple,
encore une fois, nous, on a de la chance, mais ici, en
troisième, les élèves peuvent travailler en demi-groupe, mais
une fois tous les 15 jours. (12:00) Quand je suis arrivée, il y
avait des demi-groupes toutes les semaines, en troisième.
(12:04) Encore une fois, mais ça, c'est dû au nombre
d'heures qu'on fournit à un collège, en fait. (12:12) Et après,
le chef, il répartit. (12:14) Bon, voilà. (12:15) Mais donc, du
coup, voilà, on fait des langues vivantes et, en fait, on doit
travailler avec 25 élèves de 25 profils, des fois 20 profils
différents, on va dire, avec certaines, leur dose de difficulté.
(12:30) Et voilà, donc, oui, tout le monde ne va pas
progresser au même niveau. (12:35) Après, c'est très difficile
aussi d'organiser des, par exemple, ne serait-ce que des
évaluations. (12:42) Les élèves, on va pouvoir les évaluer sur
table, par exemple, à l'écrit, c'est beaucoup plus facile.
(12:49) Les évaluer à l'oral, ça relève du domaine de
l'impossible. (12:53) Je ne peux pas avoir une conversation
en anglais avec chaque élève, c'est impossible. (12:58) Je
n'ai pas le temps, on n'a pas le temps et puis on n'a pas
assez de monde, en fait.
(13:06) C'est l'approche communicative ou actionnelle qui est
promoted, mais avec 25 ou même 30 élèves encore, ça sera
très difficile.
(13:19) Et encore, moi j'ai 25 élèves, mais dans le Collège de
Paris, il y en a 32 en classe. (13:24) Et puis il y en a 32 avec
des profils, je sais que voilà, il y a des profils d'élèves qui
sont ULIS, donc qui ont de très grandes difficultés, qui ont
108
besoin d'un adulte pour être à côté d'eux. (13:33) Tout le
monde est dans la même salle, il doit avancer pareil. (13:38)
Donc il y a ça et puis il y a le fait que c'est compliqué de les
amener à pratiquer aussi la langue en conditions réelles.
(13:47) C'est compliqué de les amener en voyage, tout est
de plus en plus cher aussi.
(13:56) J'ai lu que l'anglais n'est pas inclus dans le brevet.
(14:01) Alors, il n'y a pas des preuves, il n'y a pas des
preuves au brevet, mais ils doivent valider le fameux niveau
A2. (14:10) Donc on valide des compétences et on doit dire
si on pense que cet élève a ce niveau-là.
(14:16) Mais comment ça impacte l'élève s'il n'y arrive pas ?
(14:20) Ça n'impacte pas.
(14:22) Voilà, donc la question c'est, est-ce que ça impacte
leur motivation pour l'anglais ? (14:27) Est-ce qu'ils sont
peut-être plus motivés en mathématiques ou ils savent qu'il y
a un examen qui arrive, c'est le brevet, c'est important, etc.
(14:35) L'anglais, il n'y a pas cet aspect.
(14:37) Oui, peut-être. Et puis en plus, ils doivent valider le
niveau A2 dans une des deux langues vivantes qu'ils font.
(14:44) Donc oui, en effet, il doit y avoir un problème [pas
d‟épreuve au brevet], il doit y avoir cette question de la
motivation qui joue. (14:50) Après, on essaie de... Moi, je n'ai
pas l'impression d'avoir des élèves qui ne sont pas... (14:56)
Il y en a qui ne sont pas motivés, mais c'est plutôt des
difficultés qu'un manque de motivation, des fois. (15:01)
Après, ça dépend. Je ne peux pas parler à la place de mes
collègues, par exemple, qui travailleraient dans d'autres
régions ou dans d'autres établissements. (15:09) Je ne sais
pas trop, mais ils ont quand même conscience du fait que
l'anglais, c'est important pour leur vie future. (15:17) Et puis,
ils le parlent quand même de plus en plus, les enfants le
parlent un petit peu presque tout seuls, l'anglais. (15:24)
Grâce aux jeux vidéo, aux lectures qu'ils ont, aux films, aux
séries qu'ils regardent. (15:29) Finalement, ça fait quand
même partie de leur environnement, on va dire. (15:35) Et du
coup, quand ils arrivent en cours, je trouve que maintenant,
on a moins de réticence par rapport à quand j'ai commencé à
enseigner. (15:42) Moi, j'ai ce sentiment-là. J'ai le sentiment
que maintenant...
(15:44) Ah, c'est bien. Parce qu'ils sont plus exposés à la
langue anglaise à cause de l'internet.
(15:51) C'est ça, oui.
(15:52) Oui, c'est intéressant. Ils sont motivés pour l'anglais.
(15:58) Globalement, oui. (15:59) La plupart, globalement.
(16:00) Mes élèves, en tout cas. Après, je ne vais pas parler
pour les autres, mais moi, je les trouve plutôt, oui, intéressés,
quoi.
(16:09) Et aussi pour cet aspect interculturel, ce qu'on a
touché un peu, de parler avec peut-être d'autres enfants de
même âge, dans d'autres pays, etc.
(16:19) Oui.
(16:20) Est-ce qu'ils sont intéressés de faire des choses
comme ça ?
(16:24) Ah oui, oui, oui. Oui, ça, ils sont intéressés [de parler
avec d‟autres enfants d‟autres pays en anglais]. (16:25)
D'ailleurs, quand on leur dit que là, on a échangé... Cette
année, il y a eu des échanges qui se sont faits en anglais
avec des établissements. (16:34) Donc, mon collègue David,
il a fait un échange avec des élèves espagnols et portugais
dans le cadre d'un projet e-twinning. (16:42) Et donc, la
langue de communication, c'était l'anglais. (16:45) Et l'année
dernière, on a des professeurs italiennes qui sont venus ici.
(16:49) Et moi, j'ai échangé avec certains élèves de
cinquième. (16:52) Ils ont pu échanger des cartes et des
lettres, on va dire, avec des élèves italiens, mais en anglais.
(16:59) Donc, ça les intéresse de voir qu'on peut utiliser cette
langue commune, cette langue, pardon, pour communiquer
avec d'autres personnes dans le monde (17:11) dont la
langue maternelle n'est pas forcément l'anglais.
(17:15) Ça, c'est chouette. (17:15) Ça, c'est cool, mais ce
que j'ai vu, dans le manuel que j'ai vu, c'est que quand il y a
une culture représentée, c'est que des pays anglophones.
(17:26) Ah oui.
(17:26) Et donc, là, c'est un peu contradictoire.
(17:28) Oui, c'est ça.
(17:29) Quand ils disent aux élèves que maintenant, c'est
l'Union Européenne, etc., l'anglais est très important pour
parler avec nos voisins en Europe. (17:39) Mais après, dans
le manuel, c'est les États-Unis, il y a peut-être une séquence
sur l'Australie, Nouvelle-Zélande, mais pas plus.
(17:48) Ça sera toujours les pays, ben, English-speaking
countries, voilà, c'est ça. (17:53) Oui, oui, je suis d'accord, le
manuel, c'est ça.
(17:55) Ben, d'où l'option LCE. Cette année, nous, on a
organisé un voyage scolaire en Belgique.
(18:01) OK, oui, c'est sympa.
(18:02) Voilà, en Belgique, on parle français, mais ils se sont
aperçus qu'ils parlaient anglais aussi. (18:06) Donc, du
coup, vous voyez, ils ont fait un petit peu le lien à se dire, ah
oui, la Belgique, ben, Bruxelles, c'était la capitale
européenne. (18:13) Donc, ils se sont rendus compte de
toutes les langues qui pouvaient être parlées. (18:18) On est
allé au Parlement européen.
(18:20) OK.
(18:20) C'est l'exemple type pour montrer que tout le monde
parle.
(18:23) C'est une belle expérience.
(18:24) Voilà, qu'il y a d'autres langues aussi qui existent, et
voilà. (18:30) Mais quand on regarde les manuels
d'espagnol, j'imagine qu'il n'y aura que des références à des
pays où on parle espagnol, en fait.
(18:39) Ça, je n'ai pas vu. C'est pour un autre mémoire.
(18:40) Je me dis que ça doit être ça, mais...
(18:44) Oui, et est-ce que vous avez la possibilité d'utiliser
des manuels plus internationaux? (18:50) Parce que c'est ça,
c'est une différence que je vois dans les manuels
internationaux, (18:54) comme publiés par Oxford,
Cambridge, ou il y a d'autres comme ça, (19:02) où l'anglais
est présenté comme la lingua france du monde. (19:06) Mais
en France, l'anglais est présenté comme les anglophones.
(19:10) D'accord.
(19:11) Donc, est-ce qu'il y a quelque chose que vous avez
considéré d'utiliser encore, (19:16) ou est-ce que vous avez
vu que d'autres profs en France utilisent un manuel qui n'est
pas publié en France?
(19:23) Non.
(19:23) Ça ne se fait pas, en fait?
(19:25) Non. Et d'ailleurs, je me pose la question... (19:27)
Déjà, je ne savais pas que ça existait, mais en plus de ça,
est-ce qu'on peut commander... (19:34) Après, je ne sais
pas, c'est une question de coût, quoi.
(19:38) Oui.
(19:38) Là, c'est des collections, c'est des... Comment dire?
(19:42) C'est des éditeurs français qui font la promo. (19:45)
D'ailleurs, là, on commence à recevoir des spécimens pour
les années suivantes, (19:49) et on nous propose de faire
nos choix dans les spécimens qui existent, ou de ne pas faire
de choix. (19:54) On n'est pas obligé de faire appel à un
manuel. (19:56) Ma collègue d'anglais, Sonia, je pense
qu'elle m'avait dit une fois qu'elle n'utilise aucun manuel.
(20:03) Elle va prendre des journaux, elle va prendre des
magazines, (20:07) puis elle va réussir, elle va aller sur
Internet, (20:09) et elle va réussir à construire ses cours sans
l'aide de manuels scolaires.
(20:14) Parce que qui paye? (20:16) Les manuels scolaires?
(20:17) Les familles d'enfants?
109
(20:18) Non, c'est les établissements. (20:20) Ils ont un
budget pour les manuels scolaires. Ce qui fait qu'on ne peut
pas non plus en acheter chaque année.
(20:27) Et est-ce que c'est le même budget de chaque
collège?
(20:31) Je ne sais pas. (20:33) Il faudrait demander à la
gestionnaire, ça. (20:35) Mais non, je ne pense pas, quand
même.
(20:37) Est-ce que c'est un pourcentage ou pas?
(20:40) Par exemple, je sais que...
(20:41) Ça va dicter les choix des manuels.
(20:42) Ah oui, bien sûr. (20:43) Et chaque année, on ne
peut pas acheter des manuels chaque année, par exemple.
(20:47) Et des fois, on doit compléter des collections. (20:51)
Et on se dit, oui, bien là, on ne peut pas parce qu'on n'a pas
le budget. (20:54) Je sais qu'ils ne peuvent pas non plus
acheter les manuels de tout le monde de la même année.
(20:59) Donc, puis alors après, quand les programmes
changent, etc. (21:02) Nous, on n'est pas trop concernés.
(21:05) Pendant longtemps, ici, on a eu un manuel de
sixième qui datait des années 2000. (21:10) C'était un peu...
(21:12) C'est pour ça que d'ailleurs, on ne le regardait pas.
(21:14) Ça ne intéresse pas les élèves s'ils présentent des
trucs de l'année 2000.
(21:19) Après, ce qui nous intéresse aussi quand on prend
des manuels, (21:23) c'est qu'il y a des choses qui sont
utilisables en ligne. (21:26) Et du coup, ça, c'est pratique
quand même de pouvoir avoir les... (21:29) Parce qu'il y a
une histoire de droits aussi, d'accès. (21:32) Par exemple,
pour les vidéos, on clique sur la vidéo du manuel et elle se
lance. (21:38) Et après, l'activité est toute prête. (21:40) Ou
alors, on peut l'exploiter, nous, comme on le veut. (21:42) Et
on n'a pas de soucis par rapport à l'aspect légal, on va dire.
(21:49) Mais vous pouvez prendre une vidéo YouTube juste
comme ça pour montrer à les élèves ?
(21:52) On peut, mais bon, normalement, on doit faire
attention aussi à les publicités. (21:55) Toutes ces choses,
quand on fait avec YouTube, c'est compliqué, quoi.
(21:59) Ça risque un peu.
(22:00) Il faut caler les choses. (22:02) Mais moi, je le fais,
des fois. (22:04) Des chansons, des extraits de films.
(22:08) Très bien. (22:10) Bon, je ne vais pas prendre plus
de votre temps. (22:13) Je sais que vous êtes très occupés,
c'est sûr. (22:19) Donc, merci beaucoup, __________
(22:20) Avec plaisir.
(22:21) C'est chouette, c'est gentil de prendre le temps.
(22:24) Je n'ai pas de soucis.
(22:25) De m'aider avec mon mémoire.
(22:26) S'il y a d'autres questions par écrit ou quoi, ça rendra
pour quand le mémoire ?
(22:31) 10 juin.
(22:32) 10 juin ?
(22:33) Oui.
(22:34) Ah oui, ça marche.
Notes







Seems like chef d‟etablissement hold considerable
power in opening towards Europe.
Cultural option of English classes fantastic for
students. Should be made compulsory?
Focused on the communicative method but seems
like real intercultural communication is reserved for
the LCM option class.
Very positive about real communications with other
european countries, mentioned travelling being
difficult to realise but doesn‟t seem to do
telecollaborations.
Never
considered
international
textbooks.
Mentions problems of cost.
French textbooks give teachers confidence they
are following the PN.
Critical of number of students per class and says it
hinders their progression and ability to evaluate
speaking skills.
Participant 8
This interview took place on May 3, 2024, on GoogleMeet at
10am CET.
P8 is a former college teacher with nearly twenty years‟
experience. She has worked extensively on the collaborative
textbook series published by lelivrescolaire.com and is now
the director of the college level publications within the
organisation.
R = Researcher
P8 = Participant 8
R = (0:00) Peut-être pour commencer, est-ce que vous
pouvez vous présenter en termes de vos expériences en tant
qu'enseignante d'anglais ?
P8 = (0:09) Moi c'est Estelle Rescht. Je suis devenue
professeure en 2005. (0:16) J'ai enseigné d'abord dix ans en
ZEP, l'anglais, donc en collège et SECPA. (0:26) Ensuite, j'ai
demandé ma mutation dans ma région d'origine et j'ai
enseigné entre 2016 et 2023. (0:38) J'ai demandé mon
détachement de l'éducation nationale en juin et maintenant je
travaille toujours en tant que formatrice d'anglais, (0:48) mais
auprès des gendarmes pour le ministère de l'intérieur, dans
une école de gendarmerie.
(0:54) D'accord, ça c'est intéressant.
(0:58) Et pour ce qui est de mon expérience au sein du livre
scolaire, j'ai commencé à rédiger pour eux en 2012, (1:05)
d'abord comme relectrice, après en 2013 comme autrice, et
puis en 2017 comme directrice de collection, (1:19) pour la
totalité de la collection de collège. (1:23) Et en ce moment,
on est en train d'en rédiger un autre, mais comme les
programmes risquent de changer, on est en attente. (1:31) Il
y a des choses de prêtes et on attend que le ministère publie
les nouveaux programmes pour pouvoir adapter ce qu'on a
préparé. (1:39) Mais on a déjà rédigé un manuel de 6e et de
5e cette année.
(1:44) Et ça va peut-être changer avec le changement.
(1:48) Oui, et ça me fait très peur du coup, parce que j'ai
peur de jeter tout mon travail à la poubelle.
(1:54) Exactement.
(1:54) Mais voilà, c'est comme ça.
(1:56) Oui, donc c'est forcément, et c'est quelque chose que
j'ai vu, que les manuels scolaires sont très cadrés par le
programme national.
(2:08) Oui, c'est une obligation légale. (2:13) Et de toute
façon, un éditeur ne pourrait pas vendre des manuels, enfin
aucun professeur n'achèterait un manuel s'il n'était pas
conforme au programme, (2:22) parce qu'il prendrait le
risque ensuite de faire quelque chose dans sa classe qui
n'est pas conforme. (2:28) Donc un éditeur ne prendra
jamais le risque de faire un manuel qui n'est pas conforme
au programme, parce qu'il ne le vendra pas.
(2:36) Et comment ça fonctionne en termes de créer un
manuel par rapport au programme national ? (2:42) Parce
que j'ai tout lu le programme du collège, et c'est très ouvert
en fait, d'une manière. (2:52) Oui, alors on a cette chance-là
en anglais. (2:55) Si vous étudiez les programmes d'autres
matières, par exemple en histoire-géographie, ou en
110
mathématiques, ou même en français, ils ont beaucoup
moins de liberté que nous.
(3:04) Nous, en langue, on peut faire ce qu'on veut
finalement, on nous donne des pistes, mais on peut faire ce
qu'on veut en termes de contenu, enfin de thème, je dirais,
plus que de contenu. (3:18) On doit emmener les élèves vers
un certain nombre de savoirs, notamment grammaticaux,
lexicaux, phonologiques, (3:24) mais la façon dont on les y
emmène nous est laissée à notre libre appréciation, je dirais,
globalement. (3:33) Ce qui va être difficile pour nous, c'est
d'essayer, en tant que rédacteur de manuel, de trouver le
thème qui n'a jamais été utilisé par les autres, ou par nous
d'ailleurs, par le passé, (3:46) pour essayer de changer un
peu de l'habitude, tout en gardant des séquences et des
thèmes qui eux sont, je dirais, un peu traditionnels, et qu'un
professeur veut faire tous les ans. (3:59) Nous, on a de la
chance au livre scolaire parce qu'on a une maison d'édition
un peu particulière, une maison d'édition qui est basée
uniquement sur le collaboratif. (4:10) Par exemple, si vous
ouvrez un manuel du livre scolaire, les deux premières pages
listent tous les gens qui ont participé au manuel, (4:16) et
globalement, en tant que directrice de collection, j'ai une
équipe de 150 à 200 personnes qui travaillent avec moi.
(4:22) Donc, je ne prends pas de décision toute seule,
jamais, et c'est très très rassurant, parce que quand je dis,
tiens, j'aimerais bien faire une séquence là-dessus, (4:29) eh
bien, on envoie mon idée à tout le monde, et tout le monde
me donne son avis.
(4:33) C'est une démocratie. Comment ça marche ? Parce
que j'ai vu qu'il y a beaucoup, beaucoup d'auteurs.
(4:39) Oui, oui. Alors, le livre scolaire, c'est vraiment, c'est
une maison d'édition très jeune. (4:43) Les gens avec qui je
travaille et qui travaillent chez l'éditeur sont des gens qui ont
entre 20 et 30 ans, (4:52) et qui sont donc complètement
fans des réseaux sociaux, complètement fans des
applications, etc. (4:57) Donc, nous écrivons nos manuels
avec des outils collaboratifs. (5:03) Donc, quand je rédige
une question, je suis sur mon écran, je rédige une question,
et j'ai d'autres auteurs avec moi sur le document qui rédigent
en même temps que moi. (5:12) Donc, c'est une habitude à
prendre. On rédige, on n'est jamais à moins de six mains
pour rédiger une double page.
(5:20) Oui.
(5:20) Et en général, on est plus aux alentours de dix mains.
(5:23) Est-ce que c'est divisé comme ça, par unité ou par
séquence, comme ça ? Il y a des équipes pour certaines
unités du livre ?
(5:32) Globalement, on va avoir un auteur, un co-auteur et
deux relecteurs par chapitre. (5:42) Ce qui ne veut pas dire
qu'un auteur ne peut pas rédiger plusieurs chapitres.
D'ailleurs, ça peut arriver. (5:46) En général, ils en prennent
deux, voire trois pour ceux qui ont beaucoup d'expérience,
qui l'ont déjà fait par le passé, par exemple. (5:58) En plus,
cette année, j'ai de la chance, j'ai une co-directrice d'ouvrage
parce que j'avais beaucoup de travail avec mon nouveau
poste et que j'avais peur de ne pas pouvoir faire les deux.
(6:11) Donc, mon travail à moi, c'est d'établir la progression
de départ, de lister tous les thèmes que je veux, de les
mettre dans l'ordre, de créer la trame de la séquence. (6:21)
Donc, choisir la tâche intermédiaire, la tâche finale. Ensuite,
de recruter les auteurs sur ces thèmes-là, de placer les
auteurs sur les thèmes qui pourraient leur plaire. (6:35) En
général, on leur demande leur avis, bien sûr. Mais des fois,
on sent des trucs. On dit « Ah, lui, il lui ferait un truc super
sur tel thème. Je voudrais bien voir ce qu'il donne. » (6:45)
Donc, quand je parle de recrutement, par exemple, je parle
de tests pour les auteurs. On leur fait passer des tests et
c'est moi qui les vérifie. (6:54) Et après, du coup, je repasse
sur chacun des chapitres pour vérifier que c'est bien ce qu'on
avait imaginé. (7:03) Donc, avec ma co-directrice, c'est ce
qu'on a fait. Cette année, on s'est partagé les chapitres
puisqu'on en avait beaucoup. (7:13) Alors, je ne peux pas
tout dire. Malheureusement, comme c'est un peu secret, je
ne peux pas tout dire. Mais comme on a rédigé deux
manuels, du coup, on s'est partagé un peu le travail. (7:21)
Mais c'est important que j'ai un regard sur chacun des
chapitres et elle aussi. Donc, en fait, on partage les
relectures, mais des relectures, il y en a énormément. (7:30)
Entre la première version d'un manuel qui sort de l'ordinateur
aux alentours du mois de juillet-août et la version qu'on va
publier au mois de mars, il y a une dizaine de versions
différentes. (7:46) Et donc, à chaque fois, on relie, on corrige,
on rajoute des choses. On harmonise aussi, parce que
comme chaque auteur a un petit peu sa façon d'écrire, notre
but, à nous, c'est que le manuel soit cohérent. (8:00) Donc,
globalement, c'est comme ça qu'on rédige avec le livre
scolaire. Ce n'est pas le cas chez les autres éditeurs
puisqu'ils ont des équipes qui sont beaucoup plus petites.
(8:14) Moi, j'ai à peu près 25 auteurs qui rédigent le manuel.
J'ai 75 personnes qui vont le relire une première fois et j'ai
150 personnes qui vont le relire une deuxième fois. (8:24) Et
quand je parle de relire, je vais aussi leur donner des
chapitres, leur envoyer au format PDF pour qu'ils l'utilisent
dans leur classe et qu'ils fassent leur retour. (8:32) Donc, le
retour des élèves, le retour de leurs collègues et leur retour à
eux.
Et tout ça, je dois le prendre en compte dans la relecture et
la réécriture du chapitre.
(8:43) Et qu'est-ce que ça donne au final au manuel du livre
scolaire par rapport aux autres?
(8:51) Je crois que ce que ça donne, c'est le fait que ça
plaise à plus de gens.
(8:58) C'est plus testé.
(9:00) Oui, comme on dit au livre scolaire, on est plus
intelligent à plusieurs que tout seul. (9:05) Voilà, c'est la règle
dans notre manuel. Parfois, on a une bonne idée. On dira,
cette séquence-là va marcher. (9:17) Et puis, les gens vous
disent, moi, j'ai déjà fait ça et ça ne marche pas. Ou alors, tu
devrais faire ci comme ci, tu devrais faire ça comme ça.
(9:23) Et en fait, on apprend énormément plus de nos
collègues que de nos inspecteurs ou de gens qui n'ont plus
les pieds dans la classe. (9:31) Et moi, là, par exemple, ça
me faisait peur. J'ai quitté ma salle de classe en juin. (9:35)
Je n'ai pas encore eu le temps d'oublier que c'était un élève
de sixième. (9:38) Mais ça me faisait peur de ne plus avoir
les pieds dans ma classe pour tester les manuels. (9:43) Et
donc, c'était très important de continuer à travailler comme
ça. (9:46) Donc, je l'ai envoyé à tous mes copains qui
travaillaient en sixième. J'ai dit, vas-y, teste-moi ce chapitre,
fais-moi les retours, etc. (9:53) Et tous ces gens-là sont des
co-auteurs. Et au fur et à mesure, en fonction des remarques
qu'ils font, il y en a certains, comme moi. (10:01) Du coup,
c'est ça qui m'est arrivé. C'est un jour que j'ai fait une
remarque et on m'a dit, ah bon, mais tu ferais comment ?
(10:07) Donc, finalement, j'ai rédigé ce que j'aurais fait. Et
puis après, on m'a donné les clés pour pouvoir rédiger plus
en même temps. (10:13) Mais tous nos co-auteurs
fonctionnent comme ça. S'ils veulent plus, ils font plus. S'ils
veulent moins, ils font moins.
(10:18) D'accord. Vous avez dit que les auteurs sont plutôt
des jeunes. Est-ce qu'il y a une raison pour ça ?
(10:26) Alors, ce n'est pas les auteurs, c'est notre éditeur.
Nos auteurs, ce sont des professeurs qui sont en poste.
(10:33) Donc, ils ont entre 25 et 60 ans. Et ils sont partout.
On a des profs qui sont en Argentine, d'autres qui sont en
Nouvelle-Calédonie, par exemple, à Tahiti, etc. (10:47) Donc,
ça nous donne aussi plein de façons d'enseigner. Il y a des
publics difficiles, des publics plus aisés. (10:56) On est dans
le privé, dans le public. Donc, on a vraiment un panel plus
important.
111
(11:03) Mais par contre, la maison d'édition qui a été créée
en 2009 ou 2010, déjà rien que la maison d'édition est très
jeune, (11:10) mais les gens qui y sont, sont des gens qui
sont particulièrement jeunes. Le CIE, il y a 35-36 ans.
(11:25) D'accord.
Et son équipe, globalement, a le même âge que lui à la tête
de l'entreprise. (11:31) Mais tous les autres sont des gens
qui sont très, très, très jeunes. Donc, ils ont aussi cette
culture-là, peut-être plus que les professeurs qui sont dans
l'éducation nationale, (11:43) les nouvelles technologies et
du collaboratif particulièrement. Ce qui fait, je pense, la force
du livre scolaire, clairement. (11:52) Parfois, on a un manuel
et on se dit « Oh, c'est dommage qu'on l'ait fait comme ça. Si
on m'avait demandé mon avis, j'aurais pas fait cette
séquence comme ça ». (11:59) Nous, on demande l'avis
avant la publication. Comme ça, ça évite d'avoir des trucs
décevants, de pas dire que nos manuels sont parfaits.
(12:08) Mais ils ont cette chance-là d'avoir été beaucoup plus
testés et écrits par plein de gens qui, eux, sont en classe.
(12:15) Non, non, l'idée est super. Moi, je le trouve
formidable.
(12:21) Vous êtes le bienvenu. On retrouve tout le temps des
nouveaux auteurs parce que l'avis des gens est très
important pour nous. (12:31) C'est ma petite expérience
personnelle. En 2017, quand je suis devenue directrice de
collection, j'ai donné leur chance à deux professeurs qui
venaient juste de passer le concours. (12:41) C'était leur
première année. Ils m'avaient écrit en me disant « J'aimerais
bien rédiger un chapitre, mais je ne sais pas si j'en suis
capable ». (12:48) En fait, on l'a fait ensemble. Ils n'ont pas
rédigé tout seuls, ils ont rédigé avec moi. (12:52) Aujourd'hui,
ils sont encore avec moi en 2024 pour faire la nouvelle parce
que c'est une expérience incroyable.
C'est génial.
(12:59) Puis, on apprend vachement de nos collègues,
surtout.
(13:03) C'est sûr. J'aimerais parler des thèmes abordés dans
les manuels. Pas seulement les notions linguistiques, mais
ce qui m'intéresse dans mon mémoire, c'est les thèmes
abordés. (13:16) Surtout les thèmes culturels et comment ça
promeut les compétences interculturelles de nos élèves.
(13:25) Est-ce que vous pouvez parler un peu de ça et
comment ça fonctionne dans vos manuels ?
(13:31) Ce qu'on essaie de faire, c'est de parler de la
majorité des pays dont on parle anglais. (13:36) Vous allez
pouvoir retrouver dans nos manuels des choses sur le
Canada, l'Afrique du Sud, l'Inde même, l'Australie,
l'Angleterre. (13:48) On essaie de faire un petit peu le tour et
aussi de montrer aux élèves que ce qu'ils font en allemand,
par exemple, ça peut les aider à comprendre l'anglais.
(13:56) Puis, ce qu'ils font en anglais, ça les aide à
comprendre l'allemand. (13:58) Donc, on a quelques petits
exercices, par exemple, qui comparent les langues. On fait
de la comparaison linguistique, un peu. (14:13) On a
beaucoup travaillé sur la semaine des langues. Ils ont sorti
des nouvelles choses pour la semaine des langues,
notamment. (14:21) Ce qui manque souvent à nos élèves,
c'est de l'ouverture culturelle. (14:27) Bien sûr, ce qui me
tient à cœur, c'est le développement des compétences
linguistiques de mes élèves. (14:35) Mais leur faire découvrir
le monde à l'extérieur de leur pays, ça, ça m'intéresse plus.
(14:47) Aujourd'hui, on a cette chance-là. Je ne sais pas si
vous voulez faire étudier une biographie. (14:52) Ce n'est
pas la peine de rester dans notre petit monde, même juste
britannique, éventuellement. (14:57) On peut aller très, très
loin. On peut aller trouver des gens incroyables partout dans
le monde pour raconter leur biographie. (15:04) Donc, au
final, ça aide les élèves aussi à découvrir d'autres choses.
(15:07) Tout à fait.
Pourquoi ça reste? Parce que, moi, je suis Australien. Je
viens du monde anglophone. (15:17) Mais, en fait, ça me
surprend qu'en France, l'anglais est présenté, ou la culture
de la langue anglaise est présentée que des pays
anglophones. (15:26) Parce que, pour moi, l'anglais, c'est la
langue du monde maintenant. (15:32) Donc, pourquoi ça
reste que c'est que des pays anglophones qui sont présentés
dans les manuels?
(15:39) Parce que c'est [native-speakerism] une volonté de
nos inspecteurs. Malheureusement pour nous, je dirais.
(15:44) Parce que, parfois, on est coincé sur des thèmes
qu'on aimerait bien aborder. (15:50) Mais comme ils ne sont
pas attachés particulièrement à un pays anglophone, on n'y
a pas droit. (15:58) Un exemple tout bête. Nous, on aime
beaucoup faire une séquence sur le harcèlement. (16:04)
Parce que je pense que ça concerne tous nos adolescents,
quelle que soit leur nationalité. (16:09) Mais comme c'est
trop global, nos inspecteurs n'aiment pas trop. (16:18) Ils
vont préférer qu'on fasse, je ne sais pas, une séquence pour
donner des conseils sur, je ne sais pas, (16:25) Park Ranger
ou des choses comme ça. Parce que donner des conseils
avec Park Ranger, (16:30) au moins, c'est culturellement
ancré. C'est comme ça qu'on appelle ça, un ancrage culturel.
(16:37) Alors que, finalement, moi ce que j'aimerais, c'est
qu'on utilise l'anglais comme une vraie langue de
communication. (16:43) Et chouette, ça fait découvrir le
Canada, l'Inde, etc. (16:47) Mais ça pourrait faire découvrir la
Russie, la Pologne. (16:50) Alors longtemps, j'ai été
ambassadrice e-twinning. Et là, on utilisait effectivement
l'anglais pour ça. (16:58) Et souvent, mon inspecteur me la
reprochait, par exemple. (17:01) Il m'a dit, « mais vous avez
travaillé avec que des gens dont l'anglais n'est pas la langue
maternelle. (17:06) Donc, qu'est-ce que ça a apporté à vos
élèves » ? «(17:09) J'ai dit la nécessité de parler, parce que
mes élèves ne parlent pas polonais. (17:12) Donc, de toute
façon, il n'y a pas le choix d'utiliser l'anglais. (17:16) Et
surtout de l'utiliser correctement, parce que c'est notre seul
lien avec la classe polonaise avec laquelle on travaille, par
exemple. (17:26) Si on se trompe de mot, en face, ils ne vont
pas comprendre. (17:30) Et on peut leur donner en français
autant qu'on veut.
(17:33) Oui, c'est ça.
(17:33) Mais ça, ça ne passe pas avec nos inspecteurs.
(17:35) Et c'est vraiment une volonté de l'inspection de faire
en sorte que les thèmes culturels qu'on choisit soient
attachés à un pays anglophone en particulier.
(17:46) Mais ça vient d'où, ça ? (17:48) Ça, c'est
historiquement...
(17:52) Je pense que c'est une lubie d'inspecteur.
(17:54) Si vous me disiez que les profs le voient autrement
que les inspecteurs, (18:00) et les inspecteurs disent
toujours, non, non, l'anglais, c'est les anglophones. (18:04)
Mais aussi, le gouvernement national utilise le cadre
européen. (18:12) Européen, c'est-à-dire pour parler avec
vos voisins, européen.
(18:18) Alors, on est français. (18:21) Et on aime bien la
langue française. (18:23) Il faut savoir, par exemple, qu'on
travaille avec l'OTAN. (18:27) L'OTAN a deux langues,
l'anglais et le français. Je pense qu'on a un attachement à la
langue française, au départ, et donc, nos inspecteurs sont
très très bornés là-dessus, ils sont têtus comme ce n‟est pas
possibles. (18:56) Mais à un point important, par exemple,
moi, quand j'ai passé le CAPES, j'ai appris l'anglais en
classe, (19:06) mais surtout avec mes voyages aux EtatsUnis. (19:08) J'ai travaillé aux Etats-Unis, j'ai fait des choses
comme ça. (19:10) Donc, mon accent est un accent
américain. (19:14) Pour passer mon CAPES, il a fallu que je
le change un peu, (19:18) que je le mette le plus britannique
possible. (19:23) Parce que je pense que l'anglais qui n'est
pas loin de chez nous, (19:27) il est mieux que l'anglais
d'ailleurs, un peu. (19:30) Vous voyez, il y a un côté un peu
étrange comme ça. (19:34) Dans mon ancien manuel, on a
112
une voix d'un élève pakistanais, par exemple. (19:40) On a
fait des enregistrements. (19:42) Il est pakistanais, il parle
très bien l'anglais, évidemment, (19:44) parce que c'est une
de ses langues officielles. (19:48) Mais ça a été mal
considéré par les inspecteurs. (19:51) Parce qu'il parle avec
un accent. (19:52) Et j'imagine que votre accent australien ou
l'accent sud-africain, (19:56) pareil, va être considéré comme
c'est un peu étrange. (19:59) Moi, j'ai beaucoup de mal avec
ça. (20:00) Je ne vois pas comment on peut dire à quelqu'un
qui parle l'anglais (20:04) parce que c'est sa langue
maternelle, (20:07) lui dire c'est bizarre, votre accent est
étrange. (20:10) J'ai beaucoup de mal avec ça. (20:11) J'ai
des copains qui ont passé questions écossais, américains,
irlandais, (20:16) ont passé le CAPES et auxquels on a fait
des remarques à l'oral, (20:20) en disant votre accent est
très fort. (20:22) Je parle anglais. (20:24) L'anglais, ce n'est
pas une seule étiquette, en fait. (20:27) Il y en a...
(20:28) On a tous un accent.
(20:29) En France, on est très, très attaché à ça. (20:32) Et
je pense que l'idée de base, l'idée de départ, c'était de dire
(20:36) la langue véhicule la culture. (20:39) Et donc, c'est
important, si on veut faire apprendre la langue anglaise,
(20:44) de se baser uniquement sur la culture anglophone.
(20:47) Je pense que l'idée de départ, c'est ça. (20:51) Pour
moi, ça a des inconvénients, (20:54) mais je pense que
c'était ça, l'idée de départ. (20:57) C'était de dire, il faut qu'on
apprenne la culture en même temps, (20:59) donc on doit
enseigner ça.
(21:07) Mais de mon côté, moi, je suis anglophone, (21:10)
mais pour moi, je n'ai rien de plus en commun avec les
Etats-Unis que la France, (21:17) même si je parle la même
langue qu'eux. (21:20) Ce n'est pas la même culture.
(21:22) Non, ce n'est pas la même culture. (21:24) Bien sûr
que non. (21:25) Et vous imaginez que l'Afrique du Sud et les
États-Unis, (21:29) c'est quand même très compliqué.
(21:31) Oui, tout à fait.
(21:32) Mais non, c'est vraiment une volonté, je pense.
(21:36) Alors, ça coince un peu. (21:38) Il y a des fois, ça
nous ennuie, (21:41) parce qu'on est obligé de contourner un
peu ce genre de trucs. (21:44) Alors, il y a quelque chose
qu'on aime beaucoup étudier, (21:46) c'est les contes de
fées, par exemple. (21:48) Fairy Tales, on aime beaucoup
parce que ça permet de faire écrire aux élèves, (21:51) et
puis surtout, c'est quelque chose qui est commun à tous les
pays, (21:55) à toutes les cultures. (21:57) Donc, ils
s'appuient au moins sur quelque chose qu'ils ont déjà lu en
français (22:00) avant de pouvoir éventuellement commencer
à en écrire un en anglais. (22:04) Mais du coup, il va falloir
qu'on essaye de trouver (22:06) alors des légendes, (22:09)
donc du Time Stories, par exemple, (22:11) pour avoir un
angle comme ça, (22:14) pour rentrer dedans et utiliser la
culture anglophone (22:18) pour pouvoir réussir à faire ce
qu'on voulait au niveau linguistique. (22:22) Ce qui demande
un effort particulier, je pense, en termes de création. (22:27)
Alors qu'on donnerait Cinderella en anglais, (22:30) on le fait
lire, les élèves, ils le comprendraient très bien, (22:33) on
n'aurait pas forcément besoin de... (22:35) Mais ça permet
de faire apprendre une nouvelle chose, (22:37) de faire
découvrir une autre culture. (22:40) Donc, c'est comme ça
qu'on l'utilise. (22:43) Moi, je trouve ça très, très bien. (22:44)
Je trouve ça dommage de temps en temps (22:47) qu'on se
prive de certains thèmes (22:49) parce que ça n'est pas
anglophone. (22:51) Et là, par exemple, on est très, très
embêtés cette année (22:53) avec les Jeux Olympiques
(22:56) parce que ça fait partie des demandes qu'on nous a
faites en tant que prof (23:00) d'insérer les Jeux Olympiques
dans notre enseignement, (23:03) notamment sur la semaine
des langues. (23:07) « Eh bien oui, mais les Jeux
Olympiques, c'est à Paris. (23:11) Donc, les documents
qu'on trouve, c'est des documents en français. » (23:14)
Donc, on est très embêtés parce que... (23:17) Et puis, les
Jeux Olympiques, ce n'est pas anglophone du tout. (23:21)
Au départ, ce n'est pas ça. (23:23) Donc, on est obligés de
contourner. (23:25) On va chercher des biographies
d'athlètes américains, australiens. (23:30) On travaille, par
exemple, sur les sports. (23:32) On va travailler sur les
sports canadiens. (23:34) Oui, pour essayer de mettre un
peu de culture anglophone (23:38) dans un thème qui, au
départ, n'a rien d'anglophone du tout.
(23:40) Ça a été créé par les Grecs.
(23:42) Il n'y a pas de... (23:44) Alors qu'en fait, les élèves,
ils adorent.(23:46) Vous leur faites une séquence sur les
Jeux Olympiques cette année, (23:47) ils adorent le sport, le
machin. (23:50) Ça, c'est génial. (23:51) Et donc, je trouve
que parfois, on se prive (23:54) en disant, ben oui, mais ce
n'est pas anglophone. (23:56) Alors, c'est dommage. (23:58)
Enfin, moi, je contourne le truc en utilisant la littérature.
(24:02) Comme ça, je dis, oh, ben, c'est un auteur
anglophone qui a écrit ça. (24:05) Donc, hop ! (24:06) Et
comme ça, je passe avec un thème qui me plaît.
(24:09) C'est qui, alors, _______, qui prend ces décisions
(24:12) de garder l'anglais comme la langue des
anglophones ?
(24:16) C'est le ministère de l'Éducation nationale. (24:18)
C'est le ministère de l'Éducation nationale qui se fonde...
(24:20) Mais ils sont qui, ces gens-là ? (24:21) Ils ne sont
pas des profs, évidemment ?
(24:25) Non, non. (24:26) Non, non, c'est des pédagogues.
(24:27) C'est des gens qui ont fait des études de pédagogie
toute leur vie, (24:31) qui n'ont sans doute jamais vu un
élève, (24:34) et qui trouvent que leur idée n'est pas
mauvaise. (24:37) Voilà. (24:38) C'est vrai que leur idée n'est
pas mauvaise, (24:40) mais elle n'est pas parfaite. (24:43)
Alors, si vous interrogez plein de profs, (24:44) vous allez
voir qu'on est plein à faire des séquences (24:49) qui nous
plaisent. (24:51) Et puis, s'il n'y a pas un ancrage culturel
incroyable, (24:55) c'est très grave. (24:58) Évidemment, on
ne le fait pas le jour où l'inspecteur vient. (25:01) Voilà.
(25:03) Mais tant que ça plaît à nos élèves, (25:05) tant qu'ils
progressent, (25:07) tant qu'on fait de l'anglais pour... (25:09)
Voilà. (25:10) Et qu'on leur apprend quelque chose, (25:12)
eh bien, en fait, on est contents. (25:15) On essaye au
maximum de faire en sorte (25:17) que ça véhicule de la
culture anglophone. (25:23) Mais parfois... (25:24) Pardon.
(25:24) Est-ce que ce fameux ancrage culturel, (25:28) que
ça a l'air très important, (25:30) est-ce que ça prend en
compte aussi l'idée de interculturalité? (25:36) C'est-à-dire
qu'on attend que nos élèves (25:39) puissent interagir avec
d'autres cultures aussi? (25:42) Ou est-ce que la culture est
présentée à eux (25:45) juste pour apprendre, (25:47) OK,
c'est ça, leur culture?
(25:50) Alors, c'est le souci, (25:52) c'est que très
récemment, (25:54) dans les programmes, (25:55) on a parlé
d'interculturalité. (25:57) Le mot existe dans les programmes.
(26:00) Mais on ne nous a pas appris à le faire. (26:06) Donc
ça reste très superficiel pour l'instant (26:09) et je dirais
même artificiel, (26:11) la façon dont on le fait en classe.
(26:15) On essaye de faire en sorte (26:16) que les élèves
puissent absorber un peu (26:20) la culture qu'on leur
transmet (26:22) et être capables de faire des comparaisons
peut-être (26:25) avec leur culture, (26:27) quelque chose
comme ça. (26:29) Mais ça reste très insatisfaisant, (26:32)
je trouve, pour le moment. (26:33) Parce qu'il n'y a pas de...
(26:36) Enfin bon, après vous vous rendrez compte (26:38) si
vous devenez prof d'anglais. (26:40) On ne vous apprend
jamais à être prof d'anglais. (26:44) Donc on essaye, on fait
comme on peut. (26:47) Et c'est pour ça surtout que j'ai par
exemple (26:50) utilisé eTwinning. (26:51) Parce que je
trouvais qu'au bout d'un moment, (26:52) ça, ça marchait
bien. (26:54) Ça, ça fonctionnait parce que l'anglais, (26:57)
113
ce n'était plus du tout un truc compliqué à apprendre. (27:00)
C'était un moyen d'entrer en communication (27:02) avec
quelqu'un qui ne parlait pas votre langue du tout (27:06) et
qui ne parlait pas l'anglais non plus très bien. (27:10) Et ça,
je trouvais ça très intéressant pour eux. (27:13) Parce qu'au
final, (27:15) quand on les mettait en... (27:17) J'ai fait
beaucoup d'échanges avec... (27:18) d'échanges épistolaires
par exemple (27:20) avec une école britannique. (27:21) J'ai
dû aller, ça fait dix ans. (27:23) J'ai fait ça pendant dix ans.
(27:25) Mais c'était (d‟ecrire lettres aux anglais) compliqué
pour eux (27:27) parce qu'ils savaient que les gens (27:28)
qui allaient lire leurs lettres, (27:29) ils parlaient très très très
bien l'anglais. (27:31) Et ils l'écrivaient très très bien. (27:33)
Donc ils avaient un peu de mal (27:33) avec l'idée de faire
des erreurs. (27:35) Alors que quand tu l'as mis (27:37) avec
des élèves belges, (27:39) avec des élèves polonais, (27:41)
on a travaillé avec l'Italie aussi, (27:42) on a travaillé avec
Malte, etc. (27:45) Au final, il y avait des erreurs. (27:48) Il y
avait des erreurs (27:49) dans les lettres qu'on recevait.
(27:50) Il y avait des erreurs (27:51) dans les lettres qu'on
envoyait. (27:52) Et ça ne changeait rien. (27:53) Et par
contre, ça leur a permis (27:55) vraiment d'échanger sur leur
culture. (27:58) Qu'est-ce que tu fais tous les jours ? (27:59)
Comment tu fais de ça ? (28:01) C'est quoi ta relation avec
l'école ? (28:03) Ta relation avec, je ne sais pas, (28:05)
avec l'environnement, avec... (28:07) Voilà. (28:07) Là, ils y
arrivaient mieux, je trouvais, (28:09) quand ils n'utilisaient
pas l'anglais (28:11) pour l'anglais. (28:14) Oui, tout à fait.
(28:17) Oui, oui, c'est... (28:18) Est-ce que je trouve ça...
(28:19) C'est la tâche finale idéale, en fait, (28:23) la
communication réelle avec les autres.
(28:26) C'est ça.
(28:26) Je suis complètement d'accord avec vous. (28:29)
C'est ça, la langue.(28:30) C'est un outil de communiquer
avec les autres.
(28:34) C'est ça. (28:35) Alors que dans la pensée française,
(28:37) la langue véhicule la culture. (28:39) C'est un peu ça.
(28:42) Plus que la langue sert à communiquer, (28:45)
nous, on entend, (28:46) la langue sert à transmettre une
culture. (28:50) Alors, ce n'est pas faux.(28:51) Comme je dis
souvent à mes élèves, (28:52) des fois, je ne peux pas vous
traduire ça (28:54) parce que ça n'existe pas dans l'anglais.
(28:57) La notion, le... (28:59) Je ne sais pas, par exemple,
(29:00) le carnet de correspondance, (29:01) ils sont là.
(29:01) Comment on dit un carnet de correspondance
(29:03) en anglais ? (29:04) Je ne peux pas te le traduire,
(29:05) ça n'existe pas. (29:07) L'objet n'existe pas. (29:08)
Donc, je suis embêtée. (29:10) On peut essayer de trouver
une périphrase. (29:13) Donc, oui, ça véhicule un peu de
culture quand même. (29:15) On arrive à leur faire une
classe sur l'école, notamment. (29:18) Ça, c'est un thème
qu'on aime beaucoup (29:19) parce que c'est leur quotidien.
(29:21) Et puis, ils essayent de voir (29:22) comment on fait
l'école ailleurs, par exemple. (29:27) On aime beaucoup,
d'ailleurs, (29:28) pour l'Australie, on fait beaucoup (29:29)
School of the Year, par exemple. (29:31) On leur parle de ça.
(29:33) On leur parle de, je ne sais pas, (29:35) les écoles
sur les bateaux en Inde, par exemple. (29:37) On leur parle
des écoles américaines (29:40) où il faut venir avec un pareballe (29:42) pour éviter de se faire tirer dessus au lycée.
(29:48) Mais ça reste encore, je trouve, un peu artificiel.
(29:53) Bon, après, c'est normal. (29:54) En collège, ils sont
jeunes encore.
30+ minutes
(0:00) Interculturality, I think, is easier in high school. (0:05) I
see it in my children, for example. (0:07) In high school, they
do it better.
(0:10) Yes. (0:11) And one last question,______. (0:14) How
do you see the future of this subject? (0:17) Is it something
that can evolve eventually in France? (0:24) Or will it
remain...
(0:26) So, I'm very... (0:28) I'm quite pessimistic when I see
the drafts of the new programmes. (0:35) So, I understand
why the new programmes (0:38) are more based on the
fundamentals. (0:42) So, probably more grammar, more
vocabulary. (0:46) Because, clearly, (0:48) we were so forced
to do final tasks (0:52) and culture, (0:53) that sometimes we
forget that, at first, (0:56) students have nothing in terms of
grammar and vocabulary. (1:01) And it's not because...
(1:04) I heard it from the mouth of one of my gendarmes.
(1:06) And I found it extraordinary. (1:07) He said to me,
when I was in fourth grade, (1:09) I knew how to describe
paintings (1:12) in English and Spanish. (1:15) But I have
nothing left of that. (1:17) And the day I went abroad (1:19)
and I had to ask to go to the toilet, (1:21) I didn't know how to
ask to go to the toilet. (1:23) But I knew how to describe
paintings, (1:25) and I knew the dates of exams. (1:29) So, I
think we're heading towards something more traditional.
(1:35) Which is both scary (1:39) and, at the same time, I
think there's a need (1:43) for language. (1:47) But I'm really
looking forward to seeing what they'll do. (1:49) Because I
think we have a government (1:52) that likes to go back to
the past, (1:54) or something a bit pastoral, (1:56) like
uniforms, things like that. (1:58) And I'm waiting to see what
it's going to give (2:01) in terms of pedagogy. (2:05) Because
the only thing that works in English (2:08) is to put them
somewhere (2:10) in the linguistic bath, (2:11) and then let
them swim a little, (2:13) sometimes drown a little too, (2:15)
and then manage to get to the surface. (2:19) I'm afraid that if
we spend our time (2:21) giving them grammar lessons,
(2:23) lexics and all that, (2:25) we won't let them have their
own experience. (2:28) That scares me. (2:30) I'm also afraid
that we'll disgust them (2:33) when we talk to our parents, for
example, (2:34) about the way they've learned English.
(2:37) It's horrible. (2:39) They've learned irregular verb lists,
(2:41) vocabulary lists, and all-faceted sentences. (2:44) So
I'd like us to try to find (2:46) a fair middle ground (2:47)
between the kind of god-final-touch (2:51) that's not
necessarily (2:54) always... (2:57) always welcome, (3:02)
and all the linguistic stuff (3:04) that's going to be hated
(3:06) by our students very, very quickly. (3:08) So I hope
we'll be able to find (3:10) a fair middle ground, (3:11) but I'm
waiting to see the new programmes. (3:13) I'm not confident.
(3:17) Well, it's goodbye.
(3:19) Estelle, thank you very much (3:21) for your time this
morning.
(3:23) You're welcome.
(3:24) You helped me a lot, (3:25) and it was very interesting
for me (3:27) to talk to you about all this. (3:30) So thank you
again for your time.
(3:33) Thank you. (3:34) And don't hesitate, if you have any
other questions, (3:36) I'm available, you'll find me on the
internet.m(3:38) Type my name, you'll find me.
(3:39) That's very nice. (3:41) Have a good day, and
goodbye.
(3:44) Thank you. (3:45) Goodbye, likewise.
Notes




This interview revealed the restrictive nature the
Minister nationale has on French teaching,
particularly in regards to ICC.
This teacher is in favour of English as a lingua
franca and an approach somewhere in between
the current pedagogy of action orientanted
approach and a more traditional one.
Promotes E-twinning
Is against native speakerism
114

Is linguistically motivated in pedagogy but believes
in cultural exchange.
Participant 9
P9 is a Spanish teacher currently working for the ministry of
education in Madrid. She has taught several years of high
school English in Spain.
This interview took place on May 3, on GoogleMeet at 11am.
R = (0:00) And to begin with, could you please present
yourself and your career so far and what you (0:09) do at the
moment?
P9 = Okay, perfect. So, I'm Andrea, I'm a secondary
education teacher, high school teacher. (0:19) I studied in
college Translational Interpretation of Languages, but after
that, (0:27) I decided to pursue a teaching career. I worked at
several schools and I finally (0:37) took a test to become a
civil servant teacher in Spain. I've been working as a high
school teacher (0:45) for a few years now. These past two
years, I stepped out a little bit and I worked for the (0:51)
administration in a digital program, but yeah, that's more or
less what I've done so far.
(0:59) Okay, and how was your experience of teaching
English in a Spanish school?
(1:04) Great. I mean, it has its, of course, its difficulties. I can
talk about them (1:12) if you want, but like the teaching itself,
I really like. Students usually are very nice and (1:22) yeah,
being in the classes with them, it's something I really like.
(1:29) But yeah, I mean, it could be better, of course, it could
be like more, the working conditions (1:36) could be better.
But yeah, it's something that it's very fulfilling, so.
(1:44) When you say working conditions, is that the number
of students? Is that the...
(1:49) So basically, I think that we have too many students
per class. It should be less because (1:58) especially in ESO
classes, which are like, usually there's more students there
that need (2:06) some kind of help or adaptations. If you
have like 30, 35 students, (2:12) it's very hard to focus on
and help them more individually if they need. (2:18) So yeah,
that's something that's really, really a big thing. Also, I think
we have too many (2:25) classes per day, like we don't have
time to really work on making some interesting materials,
(2:33) for example. Yeah, so basically that's a big thing.
Classes are too short?
(2:40) Yeah, yeah.
Have less teaching hours and more like prepping hours.
(2:50) And yeah, less students per class. I think those are the
big two things that I would change.
(2:56) Yeah. And does that lack of preparation time mean
you have to use, you know, textbooks a lot more (3:02) or
other materials that you don't create yourself?
Totally. 100%. Yes.
(3:07) And how does that affect your teaching then by using
textbooks a lot?
(3:16) Well, drastically, like the days where you just cannot
prepare something like for your students, (3:27) the class
[using textbooks], it's like, of course, way more boring. The
students feel less motivated. (3:37) They complain more. And
the class itself, it's like, okay, I have to go through this hour
(3:44) because that's the only thing I could do. I have to use
the textbook today. (3:50) And yeah, they are more tired. You
are not motivated either. And however, the lessons (3:56) in
which you've prepared some things and you change, like you
prepare a set of different (4:02) activities, it's a totally
different scenario. Like the students are engaged. They
participate (4:09) more. You can do more things and teach
more because if you're with a textbook and they are, (4:17)
you know, yeah, like bored, they start talking more and you
take more time in doing one activity, (4:24) maybe because
they are not just on it and you have to please do this. You
have to be like very (4:31) persuasive.
And that's not. Yeah. Why? Why do they find textbooks
boring? Do you think that (4:37) do you think they would find
every textbook boring or is this the specific one that you
(4:43) work with or what's the problem with textbooks?
Okay, so I think they're [textbooks] really in general, (4:51)
they're very repetitive. Like there's all the ones that I've
worked with. Of course, I've worked with (4:57) better books
or textbooks and worse textbooks or better textbooks. But in
general, they're very (5:08) structured, which is good, but it's
all the time is the same. It's like some activities, (5:14)
usually fill the gaps or matching or something like that. You
have a reading, maybe a listening (5:20) and that's about it.
And grammar explanations and vocabulary. So that's it (5:28)
for all the textbooks that I've worked with. There's one I like a
little more, (5:35) which is the National Geographic textbook,
because, you know, it has like more, (5:41) um, some
interesting topics, some questions for debate, some videos
and materials that are (5:49) okay. Or I think that they're
better than other books, but still, they're just like three (5:58)
different things. And they it's all the times all those different
things. However, when you (6:04) prepare some things on
your own, there's more variety, of course, there's more
personalization, (6:12) right? Like when you, um, you know,
the class you're working with, it's easier to make things (6:19)
that they might like or enjoy. There's more variety. And
maybe you can work with projects, (6:28) which is not like
just one activity, right? Maybe like a longer project, which has
different steps. (6:34) I think that usually works better. And,
um, yeah, I think usually they usually find, (6:42) because of
this, textbooks more boring. And just because it has the
textbook word before it, (6:50) I think they are like, not as
interested to begin with.
Yeah, they have a preconceived idea of what (6:59) is a
textbook. And it's a boring class. You mentioned the National
Geographic series a (7:07) little bit. Could you just expand
like you mentioned that that's maybe an example of a (7:12)
good textbook or a better textbook. So what makes a good
textbook in your opinion?
(7:18) Okay. Um, yeah. So in the case of the National
Geographic book, as I said, it has like very (7:27) interesting
videos that are on the topics. They're very well chosen
because they have, (7:34) they are very, they are like
interesting topics. They're different. The topics, especially,
(7:39) they're very different from other textbooks, which is
usually like, you know, shopping and (7:44) direction, things
like that. And this is more related to nature, technology,
which is, (7:49) yeah, I believe more interesting for them. And
then, yeah, as I said, it has like more videos (7:56) and some
activities that are more visual. The pictures are great to talk
about the pictures (8:04) because other textbooks have like,
yeah, again, the same pictures, like a family or something
(8:10) like that. Right. But in these books, the pictures are
better. And the level, I think it's very good (8:19)for like the
English grammar and vocabulary. The vocabulary, it's also a
little bit different. (8:25) And what I found in other books, the
activities like the grammar activities and the vocabulary
(8:33) activities, I quite like. Yeah. And yes, to have a good
textbook, I think that should be, (8:43) that's important, like
the type of activities that are different levels, maybe, and that
(8:51) the vocabulary is interesting, you know, the topics,
some visual materials.
Yeah. I think (8:59) that's key. And is that book then adapted
to the Spanish curriculum or is that the international (9:06)
version that you're using?
115
No, it is. It is. Yes. I used the Spanish one.
OK. So National (9:13) Geographic have a specific series
that they make for Spanish schools and it would not be
shown (9:20) anywhere else.
Yeah.
And in terms of the Spanish (9:28) publishers, which I
imagine there are as well, those books are maybe more
linguistically focused (9:35) and more vocabulary, grammar
focused, are they?
Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah. OK. That's interesting.
(9:42) What I'm looking at in my dissertation this year is the
intercultural content that are shown (9:51) in textbooks. So
how the textbooks kind of create a sense of interculturality
and the (9:59) competences needed from our students to be
able to actually interact with other cultures. (10:04) Is that
something you see in the textbooks you're working with?
(10:08) Not much [ICC in textbooks]. No, maybe like a hint,
some here and there. But yeah, it's not something that
(10:18) I see like you can take a good amount of knowledge
or information or background to it, (10:26) because maybe
there's like the interracial picture, things like that. But yeah, I
don't think there's (10:33) that's something that's very
spoiled.
Yeah, it's not it's not a case of getting students to think
(10:39) critically about cultural differences and what they
mean, how that affects communication and (10:45) things like
this.
Exactly.
They maybe show… some festivity that's typical (10:54) from
some countries. That's that's about it. I think it's as I said, it's
like some things here (11:01) and there, but not very in
depth.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, it's it's a bit similar in France
(11:11) where culture is presented as a almost like a list of
facts about a place.
Right.
Of course, (11:19) it's much more complicated than that. And
we need to well, maybe we can go deeper and a bit more
(11:26) critically into it.
Yeah. And I think it (ICC) would be more interesting for them
is it's which is also (11:34) like part of the objective, right, that
they show interest, real interest in those cultures. So (11:41)
yeah, as you said, with the list, that's yeah.
And do you find do you find your students are (11:46)
interested in that kind of thing?
OK, so. I think that. Yeah, as I said before, (12:01) like they,
because they are in Spain, they learn English like from the
(12:07) from schools, right, like not even in high school
before that. (12:13) And I have the feeling that they are
taught the same over and over again year after year. (12:21)
And that's also the case with the which maybe they need or I
don't know, there's something that needs (12:27) to be
changed about the system, because it's true that when you
have students that are a little (12:33) older, like, yeah, so or
but they need that review of the person simple and things like
that. (12:43) But culturally speaking, I think they are shown
the same festivities or the same things over and (12:50) over
again. So it's like Halloween, blah, blah, blah. And it's like all
every year the same thing. (12:57) And they know it already.
And are they interested sometimes? But I think that (13:07)
since that's something that they already know, (13:13) other
cultural things should be taught in or included in the
textbooks or (13:20) or whatever.
And yeah, as you said before, shown in a more interesting
way, like maybe (13:29) through a video of, you know, a
family doing whatever or something that it's not just a text,
(13:36) for example, with some pictures. Yeah, so I think they
are interested, but (13:43) the way it is portrayed and shown
makes them not be that interested. (
13:50) Okay.
And at the moment, you're working on a technology project.
(13:55) You're working with a former colleague of mine
__________, (14:00) who kindly gave me your contact. How
can technology contribute to developing intercultural (14:09)
competences?
Well, a lot. I mean, we could use technology, for example,
just I don't know, (14:19) just an example that came through
in mind to video call with students from other countries,
(14:24) for example. I don't know if that's something that is
done some somewhere, but I've personally (14:29) never
done it. And I think it could be very interesting. Right. Like
before, we used to (14:34) like some letters and, you know,
that's not something we do as people living our lives (14:40)
anymore. So students are not that interested in that. So,
yeah, I don't know, (14:46) for example, that or yeah, I mean,
the Internet has made the world very global so we can
access (14:55) I don't know, TV from other countries or.
Yeah, I think I think like through videos, (15:05) through the
news or as I said, video calls, things like that, we could
improve the (15:13) interculturality or the exposure to that
other cultures into Spanish.
(15:20) Have you heard of eTwinning?
Yes.
So this is the program set up to try and allow (15:29)
students to talk to students from other countries, right?
Yes, exactly. I mean, (15:35) I've never done that program,
but I think it [e-twinning] is not that easy to access. Like, I
don't think it's (15:42) how can I say this? Like in every
school, kind of like that's that's at least my experience.
(15:53) Like it's not something everybody knows about, for
example. And if you don't know about (16:00) it, you cannot
participate. So I think it's great, of course. And I would love to
to participate (16:07) sometime in the future. But I think more
promotion or more I don't know if that's the right word,
(16:16) but make it more accessible for every school, so that
many students… like I've worked in, probably eight different
schools, and I know about the program for other reasons.
Yeah, right. Just never mentioned, never mentioned in the
teacher (16:43) training that, you know.
Exactly.
Okay. Yeah. I mean, it's obviously problematic. People
(16:50) don't know about it. People aren't going to use it.
Exactly. Yeah.
Interesting. Listen, (16:57) Andrea, I won't take more of your
time. So thank you for joining me and answering some
questions (17:02) I had.
My pleasure.
So thanks so much. And say hello to Ernesto for me.
(17:11) Okay, I will. Thank you. And I hope your project goes
very well. And if you need anything else, (17:17) let me know.
Okay. Thanks so much, Andrea. Have a good day.
You too.
Bye.
Notes



Didn‟t have much knowledge about ICC based on
her short answers surrounding those questions.
Students find textbooks boring and have been
conditioned to dislike them.
Technology needs to be used in class to increase
ICC.
116
B. Interviews Horizontal Analysis
Theme titles (such as “Textbooks”) are displayed in red. Quotes were colour coded
as part of the coding process and have been left as an example.
Textbooks
P1 - Et mes documents qui sont très souvent tirés de l'actualité.
je me sers beaucoup de la presse…d'extraits de journaux télé, de films, d'interviews
j'essaie d'adapter l'actualité et aussi ce que font mes collègues en sciences économiques ou en histoire géo pour que les
élèves trouvent une transversalité.
j'utilise peu de support de manuels scolaires.
je trouve que les manuels sont jugés de façon trop sévère par les enseignants.
On respecte le programme, on respecte le cadre européen. Les tâches sont logiques, etc.
je préfère utiliser des choses de la vraie vie.
pour le collège…j'utilise beaucoup plus le manuel parce que les enfants ont besoin, et leurs familles aussi, n'ont pas assez
d'autonomie, par exemple en sixième
C'est très très bien.[manuels au college] C'est hyper adapté en méthodologie, en vocabulaire, en grammaire.
C'est utile pour les familles.
Et puis, même pour les enfants, ça leur permet de devenir plus autonomes. Ils savent qu'il y a des façons d'apprendre. Ils
peuvent réfléchir sur des règles.
Donc, c'est une autre problématique, c'est qu'on est limité en photocopie. On a des quotas de photocopie qui sont limités.
en fait ce qui est valorisé, c'est l‟autenticité des documents.
je suis en train de me souvenir de de tout le travail que j'avais fait chez Hatier.[03:42 - 03:53] Et il est obligatoire d'ancrer (les
manuels scolaires chez Hatier) dans la culture [anglophone].
P2 - these textbooks are, they are full, as far as culture is concerned, I think they are very, very pessimistic, in fact,
okay? And they've been very repetitive and pessimistic for decade… I don't want my students to have to get
depressed okay and that's… and I think that's what they [textbooks] are doing.
[Textbooks] Are stereotyped
They [textbooks] tell you what is right and what is wrong all the time… [they are] self-righteousness
the textbooks tended to be necessary for the younger students. They would give a kind of framework.
they would often be very adapted to the college, especially celebrations, Christmas, Thanksgiving. That's the things younger
students would expect.
The problem… they tend to be repetitive
and my colleagues right now, I think that none of them use textbooks, and they do their own things.

P3 – textbooks…made by the government…not very updated, not very modernized
And the good thing is we are just taking the reference from the books that we could get from the international courses…from
Cambridge and also from Oxford.
They [government books] really are low quality…very old-fashioned. They just used some of the skills, only the reading skills
and also writing skills for English.
in the government text, mostly they never focus on the intercultural things… They just focus on the grammar patterns and also
the vocabularies, new vocabularies…not how to apply the words
So they [international schools] bought any famous text, well-known text, most used text to get more men
I like every, any kind of materials that can make my students get more comprehensive skills.

P4 - they [students ] receive information about different countries. it's limited to “you have an English friend who's
coming to visit” or something like that. Yeah. But in terms of, for example, listening comprehension, well, it's
interesting with listening exercises, they only get different accents from native speaking countries, not from other
nationalities.
So I think also textbooks have to incorporate that kind of information (IC) because it's stated by law.
The problem again is that then, okay, we have like older teachers, older than me, work basically with textbooks and their
methodology is basically I take the textbook, page 20, exercises 1, 2, and 3. Next day, page 31 and so on.
textbooks have things that are limited to what is written in the regulations. So yeah, they have to incorporate something about
intercultural, but it can be maybe that this text says, wow, in China they do this, they have the, in Japan they have the tea
ceremony, more than actual impact in the language learning process.
English teachers, I think we tend to use more, well, you know, Cambridge, Oxford, (4:34) even National Geographic have now
their own like line of textbooks.
So there's this obsession that they have to go throughout the whole book because if they don't finish it, it will be like, you
haven't seen all the contents aimed at this year, et cetera. So there's this pressure, like I have to fill in the workbook even if
students are not so sure about what they're doing.

P5 - je suis beaucoup les manuels scolaires.
c'est un grand débat en France chez les professeurs. C'est vraiment « on est super prof, on fait notre séquence.
Et maintenant, avec les nouveaux [manuels], il y a vraiment des choses authentiques aussi.
117
Moi, j'aimerais bien que ce soit authentique…par exemple, si c'est des compréhensions orales, ça devrait être le vrai débit de
gens qui parlent en anglais.
C'est que je crois que c'est (IC) dans les textes, réagir dans le sens du sujet qu'on aborde.
ça devient un peu très French de parler de tous les problèmes sociaux et ensuite qu'on puisse l'aborder, on a quelque chose
en commun. Donc, moi, je trouve que c'est des choses importantes culturelles qu'on peut toujours aborder [dans des manuels]
sur un point de vue, sur l'aspect positif, pas seulement l'aspect négatif.
je suis pour qu'on achète les workbooks des manuels. Mais en France, comme ils détestent payer pour quelque chose, c'est-àdire que l'éducation doit être gratuite, on ne peut pas demander aux parents d'acheter des manuels.
Mais je trouve que les manuels doivent être à jour avec toutes les exigences du programme.
J'ai mes collègues qui disent que ça ne sert à rien.
P6 - We followed the learning outcomes in that program [textbook]. And we use, yes, we use grammar and vocabulary, but [in
a] very limited way.
We can choose Cambridge, M&M or Oxford, Pearson, for example. We are free to choose which book we'd like to use in the
classroom. But it very depends on the price, because our families, most of our families are not in good condition as social
economically. And that's why the first thing that we are looking is the price opportunity.
Well, more engaging topics, maybe. In the Oxford or Cambridge books, you can find many new things, you know, modern
things that appeal to our teenage students.
P7 - je pioche dans plusieurs manuels et je préfère faire mes propres séquences, mais les manuels m'aident beaucoup pour
m'inspirer, par exemple, ou pour trouver des ressources pédagogiques.
il y a des thèmes [dans le PN], je crois, qu'on doit aborder. Je ne les connais plus trop. Mais c'est pour ça que moi, je me base
un petit peu aussi au manuel scolaire.
Déjà, je ne savais pas que ça existait [manuels internationaux], mais en plus de ça, est-ce qu'on peut commander... Après, je
ne sais pas, c'est une question de coût, quoi.
Ma collègue d'anglais, Sonia, je pense qu'elle m'avait dit une fois qu'elle n'utilise aucun manuel. Elle va prendre des journaux,
elle va prendre des magazines, puis elle va réussir, elle va aller sur Internet, et elle va réussir à construire ses cours sans l'aide
de manuels scolaires.
Après, ce qui nous intéresse aussi quand on prend des manuels, c'est qu'il y a des choses qui sont utilisables en ligne.
P8 - Et en ce moment, on est en train d'en rédiger un autre, mais comme les programmes risquent de changer, on est en
attente. Il y a des choses de prêtes et on attend que le ministère publie les nouveaux programmes pour pouvoir adapter ce
qu'on a préparé.
un éditeur ne pourrait pas vendre des manuels, enfin aucun professeur n'achèterait un manuel s'il n'était pas conforme au
programme, parce qu'il prendrait le risque ensuite de faire quelque chose dans sa classe qui n'est pas conforme. Donc un
éditeur ne prendra jamais le risque de faire un manuel qui n'est pas conforme au programme, parce qu'il ne le vendra pas.
on peut faire ce qu'on veut en termes de contenu, enfin de thème, je dirais, plus que de contenu.
On doit emmener les élèves vers un certain nombre de savoirs, notamment grammaticaux, lexicaux, phonologiques, mais la
façon dont on les y emmène nous est laissée à notre libre appréciation, je dirais, globalement.
tout en gardant des séquences et des thèmes qui eux sont, je dirais, un peu traditionnels, et qu'un professeur veut faire tous
les ans.
Globalement, on va avoir un auteur, un co-auteur et deux relecteurs par chapitre
Ce qu'on essaie de faire, c'est de parler de la majorité des pays dont on parle anglais.
j'ai une équipe de 150 à 200 personnes qui travaillent avec moi. Ce n'est pas le cas chez les autres éditeurs puisqu'ils ont des
équipes qui sont beaucoup plus petites. Moi, j'ai à peu près 25 auteurs qui rédigent le manuel. Oui, comme on dit au livre
scolaire, on est plus intelligent à plusieurs que tout seul.
Parce que, parfois, on est coincé sur des thèmes qu'on aimerait bien aborder. Mais comme ils ne sont pas attachés
particulièrement à un pays anglophone, on n'y a pas droit.
P9 - the class [using textbooks], it's like, of course, way more boring. The students feel less motivated. however, the lessons) in
which you've prepared some things and you change, like you prepare a set of different activities, it's a totally different scenario.
Like the students are engaged.
so I think they're [textbooks] really in general,they're very repetitive.
all the time is the same. It's like some activities, usually fill the gaps or matching or something like that
There's one I like a little more, which is the National Geographic textbook…it has like more, interesting topics, some questions
for debate, some videos and materials that are okay… activities that are more visual. The pictures are great to talk about
just because it has the textbook word before it, I think they are like, not as interested to begin with.
Administration / Institutions
P1 - Les programmes sont quand même assez intéressants pour qu'on puisse faire entrer beaucoup de thématiques dedans.
Quand quelque chose nous intéresse, il y a toujours un axe ou une thématique qui permet de raccrocher.
Si on est inspecté et qu'on fait ça [non-anglophone], ça va nous être reproché. Ben on est obligé d'ancrer la culture dans le
pays, dans un pays anglophone et dans le monde anglo-saxon.
En fait les programmes et la façon dont on enseigne l'anglais insiste énormément sur l'authenticité en fait ce qu'on peut dire par
authenticité, c'est que on doit d'utiliser des ressources…qui ne sont pas fabriquées de façon artificielle.
c'est très rigide. En fait à la fois on a une liberté d'enseignement sur ce qu'on fait mais il y a un cadre de fonctionnement qui est
le garant de l'éducation nationale qui lui est très rigide.
P2 - I'm pretty free to do what I like, which is very positive…we share, obviously, common values with other teachers
we are individuals in a system, but we are isolated.
the contempt we feel... From... From the institutions.
[on being alone] you have to find the resources yourself and you have to, you know, keep the will to teach and yeah, I don't
know how to put it but that's...That certainly is the main issue with the education system.
I would say that the limitations are the final exam.
because it's a mark-oriented institution.
we're left entirely alone, and we have to create our own material, and to give that certification to the students, which is
completely worthless.
P5 - C'est vraiment notre bible, quoi, l'académie, les textes de l'académie
118
Mais notre programme, c'est présenter (18:04) la culture anglophone, donc c'est le Canada, les États-Unis, l'Afrique du Sud,
l'Australie, (18:10) jamais l'Afrique, l'Afrique du Sud, l'Afrique noire, non. Donc, voilà.
Je n'ose pas trop sortir du chemin tracé, parce que j'ai mes collègues. J'ai mes collègues qui regardent, et aussi les parents,
qui me disent à quoi ça sert .
On a les libertés pédagogiques
P6 - I don't need to follow an exact curriculum, you know, the national curriculum. I'm freer than other teachers
it seems like (26:15) maybe the Turkish government is choosing some parts of it [CEFR] that they want to use and ignoring
(26:20) other parts of it. And exactly. Yeah, exactly.
P7 - Et donc justement, avec Erasmus, ça nous permet d'avoir des fonds pour le faire au sein de l'Europe. C'est grâce au chef
d'établissement. Et ces options {LCM}, en fait, le chef d'établissement, il doit les financer.
On n'a pas vraiment de programme à suivre à la lettre. On nous demande de mener nos élèves vers un certain niveau. Donc,
par exemple, à la fin de la troisième, les élèves doivent avoir validé le niveau A2.
P8 - Et en fait, on apprend énormément plus de nos collègues que de nos inspecteurs ou de gens qui n'ont plus les pieds dans
la classe. Et moi, là, par exemple, ça me faisait peur. J'ai quitté ma salle de classe en juin.
On ne vous apprend jamais à être prof d'anglais
c'est des pédagogues. C'est des gens qui ont fait des études de pédagogie toute leur vie, qui n'ont sans doute jamais vu un
élève, et qui trouvent que leur idée n'est pas mauvaise.
Je pense qu'on a un attachement à la langue française, au départ, et donc, nos inspecteurs sont très très bornés là-dessus, ils
sont têtus comme ce n‟est pas possibles.
On a fait des enregistrements. Il est pakistanais, il parle très bien l'anglais, évidemment,) parce que c'est une de ses langues
officielles. Mais ça a été mal considéré par les inspecteurs. Parce qu'il parle avec un accent.
Pour passer mon CAPES, il a fallu que je le change un peu, que je le mette le plus britannique possible.
Parce que c'est [native-speakerism] une volonté de nos inspecteurs.
Cultural content
P1 - Faire la cuisine, ils font des scones avec des grammes, la farine et les machins…. Ça leur plaît beaucoup.
Parce qu'on a parlé de la polarisation aux Etats-Unis. Ça, ça leur plaît beaucoup.
Pas que des stéréotypes sur l'Australie.
En fait, je pense qu'il est important d'ancrer la langue dans la culture.
Et vous regardez dans le programme l'aspect culturel et authentique est hyper important.
Mais il faut que ce soit en plus que ça s'appuie sur de vraies références culturelles. Par exemple la Saint Patrick
le but c'est pas que chacun parle de son échange de son expérience. C'est que on donne l'expérience anglo-saxonne après ils
réagissent.
P2 - I think that we are all suffering from green fatigue and the more we teach it, the less efficient it becomes.
And culture...It's just, you know, it's a simplified version of history.
So I would say that not my generation, but the previous generation would have loved to teach those things. And they had that
impression that they were history teachers (3:02) and they had to deal with everything bad that happened in the world. (3:11)
So I suppose that they tend to use textbooks a lot.
P5 - Mais notre programme, c'est présenter la culture anglophone, donc c'est le Canada, les États-Unis, l'Afrique du Sud,
l'Australie, (18:10) jamais l'Afrique, l'Afrique du Sud, l'Afrique noire, non. Donc, voilà.
P6 - Well, there are lots of Turkish cultural contents in our books because our (16:05) National Educational Ministry gives
importance to our culture
But in that quizzes part, please don't misunderstand me, it's not about intercultural quizzes, it's just from Turkish quizzes, the
regions
P7 - On essaie de débattre, de parler de sujets de société, de sujets qui les intéressent aussi à chaque fois, vraiment que ça
les intéresse. Et donc là, en ce moment, on est en train de parler des droits civiques aux Etats-Unis.
P8 - l'idée de départ, c'était de dire, la langue véhicule la culture. C'était de dire, il faut qu'on apprenne la culture en même
temps, donc on doit enseigner ça…Ce qui demande un effort particulier, je pense, en termes de création.
Plus que la langue sert à communiquer, (28:45) nous, on entend, (28:46) la langue sert à transmettre une culture.
Intercultural content / ICC
P1 - Ah, dans les manuels scolaires, oui (IC est bien représenté).
L'aspect culturel était vraiment intéressant. Il sortait d'une séquence sur l'Australie qui était super, super
intéressante….Beaucoup d'aspects de l'Australie qui permettaient, en fait, de gérer l'hétérogénéité. C'est-à-dire qu'il y avait des
faits tout à fait basiques.
c'est (ICC) une vision à mon sens qui est trop utilitaire de la langue. Pour moi la langue ce n'est pas qu'un véhicule, c'est un
vecteur d'histoire. Mais c'est ma conception.
Votre questionnement c'est plus le questionnement du prof d'anglais langue seconde. C'est à dire que prof d‟anglais, mais
dans un groupe intercultural.
C'est qu'on a pas le droit de trop faire appel au parcours personnel de l'école…et on a pas le droit de poser des questions
frontales et faire appel à la culture d'un enfant…C'est pas possible de faire ça c'est hyper stigmatisant.
que le problème de l'interculturalité, finalement ça peut pas trop coller dans un cursus…que ça peut pas marcher avec l'idée
d'une classe Française…je pense que c'est ce qu'on ça vient du ministère…c'est aussi le fait de psychologues qui ont des
conseils…on fournit un enseignement commun
- Donc, on a regardé la vidéo, on a travaillé dessus et on a écrit une lettre de bon rétablissement Kate. Et ils adorent ce genre
de choses.
mes élèves devaient les [eleves FLE AF] interviewer et faire un sondage sur les fake news et la façon dont les adolescents
s'informent. Et ça, ils ont adoré.
119
Le truc qui est chouette dans le métier de prof anglais, c'est les tâches finales.
Des choses réelles du monde qu'il peut comprendre... Des choses réelles qu'il les positionne en tant que citoyens [qui les
motivent]. C'est qu'il faut qu'il y ait un vrai besoin.
P3 - we always have to share with [the students] the different cultures, the diversity, the diversities of the cultures. And students
are really, really interested in it.
We just focused on talking about the other countries and the culture of these other countries because we want them to get
more vocabulary that are used to describe about their culture. So they get more vocabulary for that.
I always let them compare. And I always let them think of how we all do the things for this title. Yeah. For example, like the
celebration in another country, how do we also do this in our country?
And also the children, they are always interested in it [IC}.
P4 – {using ICC with} older students, like maybe a 12 year old student hasn't stopped to think whether he wants to go to study
in Germany but other students, I think they do identify English as a lingua franca to be used all around the world.
immigrants and mostly Spanish-speaking immigrants, they don't see that factor that English is used in other countries
since we have the language assistants, (17:19) that's incredibly useful with regard to intercultural concerns…that enriches the
cultural knowledge of those students…they get the idea of, well, I can travel to another country, I can work there
On the other hand, we have students whose future is, like, I'm going to be working at a McDonald's until I manage to work in a
car workshop or something like that. So, they don't care about what's beyond.
- So in terms of methodology, they [students from poorer backgrounds] end up having a more traditional approach, like, you
know, filling the gaps exercises.
P5 - Qu'est-ce qu'ils ont appris des étudiants,) des élèves aux États-Unis? Il faut qu'ils sachent, qu'ils voient les différences
entre les deux cultures.
je crois que c'est dans les textes, réagir dans le sens du sujet qu'on aborde… quand on parle de l'Australie, on aborde toujours
les sujets des aborigènes…Et comment les aborigènes étaient maltraités par les colons?
Et là, ils doivent dire à l'oral, je suis toute seule avec 23 élèves encore dans la salle, c'est une catastrophe.
P6 - When it comes to intercultural topics, well, we don't use too much actually.
P7 - Alors ça [IC], on essaie de leur donner des éléments culturels. Mais c'est vrai que moi, c'est un reproche que je me fais
souvent. C'est d'être beaucoup plus centré sur la communication. Vraiment le fait d'être capable de parler, de lire, de
comprendre.
ce qu'on veut, c'est vraiment échanger avec des gens, avec des vraies personnes. Et puis, on veut aussi que nos élèves soient
capables de découvrir l'Europe et de découvrir les spécificités des pays, les coutumes des gens, comment ça se passe là-bas,
comment on va à l'école en Italie, en Irlande, n'importe où.
Avec cette option [LCM], là, on va beaucoup plus en parler, de l'interculturalité, de la culture.
P8 - Ce qui manque souvent à nos élèves, c'est de l'ouverture culturelle.
Bien sûr, ce qui me tient à cœur, c'est le développement des compétences linguistiques de mes élèves. Mais leur faire
découvrir le monde à l'extérieur de leur pays, ça, ça m'intéresse plus.
Parce que, parfois, on est coincé sur des thèmes qu'on aimerait bien aborder. Mais comme ils ne sont pas attachés
particulièrement à un pays anglophone, on n'y a pas droit. ce que j'aimerais, c'est qu'on utilise l'anglais comme une vraie
langue de communication.
Alors qu'en fait, les élèves, ils adorent. Vous leur faites une séquence sur les Jeux Olympiques cette année, ils adorent le
sport, le machin. Ça, c'est génial.
c'est que très récemment, dans les programmes, on a parlé d'interculturalité. Mais on ne nous a pas appris à le (ICC) faire.
Donc ça reste très superficiel pour l'instant et je dirais même artificiel, la façon dont on le fait en classe.
On essaye de faire en sorte que les élèves puissent absorber un peu la culture qu'on leur transmet et être capables de faire
des comparaisons peut-être avec leur culture . Mais ça reste très insatisfaisant, je trouve, pour le moment.
P9 - Not much [ICC in textbooks]. No, maybe like a hint, some here and there. They maybe show… some festivity that's typical
(10:54) from some countries. That's that's about it.
And we need to well, maybe we can go deeper and a bit more critically into it [IC] …And I think it (ICC) would be more
interesting for them is it's which is also like part of the objective, right, that they show interest, real interest in those cultures.
But culturally speaking, I think they are shown the same festivities or the same things over and over again. So it's like
Halloween, blah, blah, blah.
Native speakerism
P1 - C'est que des pays anglophones. Dans aucun manuel...mais dans aucun programme officiel d'enseignement des langues
vivantes, il y a de l'unité sur un pays qui n'appartient pas à l'ère linguistique couverte.
Les pays anglophones africains étaient sous-représentés, par exemple. Mais par contre, grâce à un livre d'anglais, un manuel
scolaire d'anglais, on ne va pas parler de l'Italie. Sauf si on apprend qu'il y a une communauté anglophone, mais italienne...
En fait, je pense qu'il est important d'ancrer la langue dans la culture.
[speaking about an activity in Paris for the Olympics] le problème c'est que ca passe pas parce que si c'est un allemand qui
parle [anglais], on va avoir un accent allemand
je préférerais que la personne qui m'apprenne l'italien me fasse écouter des vrais enregistrements, avec des vrais italiens qui
sont en train de parler à Rome
P3 - All countries [are talked about], like all Asians, Africans, all countries right around the world.
We just focused on talking about the other countries and the culture of these other countries because we want them to get
more vocabulary that are used to describe about their culture. So they get more vocabulary for that.
I always let them compare. And I always let them think of how we all do the things for this title. Yeah. For example, like the
celebration in another country, how do we also do this in our country?
And also the children, they are always interested in it [IC}.
P4 - So in those schools [European schools], one of the highlights they have is that their teachers are native.
maybe because the world is opening up so much, we start to develop that awareness that… I mean, I love the idea that English
is not owned by native speakers anymore.
120
P5 - il y a beaucoup, beaucoup de Britanniques. Donc, il y a beaucoup de, très peu d'Australie. Et ensuite, très peu, très peu
sous les États-Unis.
Mais notre programme, c'est présenter la culture anglophone, donc c'est le Canada, les États-Unis, l'Afrique du Sud, l'Australie,
jamais l'Afrique, l'Afrique du Sud, l'Afrique noire, non. Donc, voilà.
Donc, oui, Amsterdam, je l'ai fait toute seule. Et surtout post-inspection, c'est ce que je vais dire. Si mon inspectrice regarde ça,
c'est pas...
P7 - nous, on a aussi voulu s'ouvrir sur l'Europe.
P8 - Parce que c'est [native-speakerism] une volonté de nos inspecteurs. C'est vraiment une volonté de l'inspection de faire en
sorte que les thèmes culturels qu'on choisit soient attachés à un pays anglophone en particulier.
c'est des pédagogues. C'est des gens qui ont fait des études de pédagogie toute leur vie, qui n'ont sans doute jamais vu un
élève, et qui trouvent que leur idée n'est pas mauvaise.
Je pense qu'on a un attachement à la langue française, au départ, et donc, nos inspecteurs sont très très bornés là-dessus, ils
sont têtus comme ce n‟est pas possibles.
On a fait des enregistrements. Il est pakistanais, il parle très bien l'anglais, évidemment,) parce que c'est une de ses langues
officielles. Mais ça a été mal considéré par les inspecteurs. Parce qu'il parle avec un accent.
Pour passer mon CAPES, il a fallu que je le change un peu, que je le mette le plus britannique possible.
Je trouve ça dommage de temps en temps qu'on se prive de certains thèmes parce que ça n'est pas anglophone.
Mais c'était (d‟ecrire lettres aux anglais) compliqué pour eux parce qu'ils savaient que les gens qui allaient lire leurs lettres, ils
parlaient très très très bien l'anglais.
ça leur a permis vraiment d'échanger sur leur culture.
Alors que quand tu l'as mis avec des élèves belges, avec des élèves polonais, on a travaillé avec l'Italie aussi.
Technology
P2 - the way we approach the language is quite different now, thanks to the internet
P4 - technology, like the internet. Suddenly, they have these influencers, and they have YouTubers and TikTokers from all over
the world. So, I guess that can widen the perception…and I think teachers should kind of exploit that…educate students as to
what kind of contents are worth it…critical thinking, identifying sources, this kind of stuff.
P4 - know E-Twinning? Participating in E-Twinning projects can be very helpful to create a rapport with a different school, with
a different country, and in terms of intercultural communication. And it's always through the use of technology. So I think that
would be great.
[on E-Twinning} So kind of finding points of interest that make you contact from your inner motivation with people from all over
the world.
I think technology is very motivational for students, and that should be exploited. Even though for textbooks, I understand it's
very, very difficult.
P5 - Dans mon coin, ce n'est pas encore concret pour les élèves que l'anglais est important. Surtout, ils ne voyagent pas
beaucoup, ils n'ont pas de moyens pour voyager. Donc, mais comme ils ont TikTok, ils ont Instagram ou le jeu, ils commencent
à jouer avec... ils sont gamers, donc ils parlent l'anglais.
P6 - Well, I find a partner from another country, a colleague from another country. We set time and date to meet online The
students love it. They are looking forward to the next session.
I use lots of different kinds of materials, YouTube, TED videos, lots of different things. Web 2.0 tools, even AR and VR I use in
my classroom.
P7 - Oui, ça, ils sont intéressés [de parler avec d‟autres enfants d‟autres pays en anglais] .Donc, ça les intéresse de voir qu'on
peut utiliser cette langue commune.
Après, ce qui nous intéresse aussi quand on prend des manuels, (21:23) c'est qu'il y a des choses qui sont utilisables en ligne.
P8 - J'ai été ambassadrice e-twinning. Et là, on utilisait effectivement l'anglais pour ça. Et souvent, mon inspecteur me la
reprochait, par exemple. « qu'est-ce que ça a apporté à vos élèves » ?
on fait comme on peut…j'ai par exemple (26:50) utilisé eTwinning…ça fonctionnait parce que l'anglais, (26:57) ce n'était plus
du tout un truc compliqué à apprendre. (27:00) C'était un moyen d'entrer en communication … et qui ne parlait pas l'anglais
non plus très bien. Et ça, je trouvais ça très intéressant pour eux.
P9 - I think it [e-twinning] is not that easy to access. Like it's not something everybody knows about.
…make it more accessible for every school
Pedagogy General
P1 - cette façon d'enseigner [approche actionelle] qu'on a aujourd'hui était beaucoup plus répandue en Angleterre. J'ai appris
des techniques beaucoup plus vivantes qui font que, quand je suis rentrée en France, j'ai passé mon concours et tout ça, mais
j'avais déjà ce sens de faire des tâches finales.
- De mise en situation aussi. Ils adorent faire des scénettes, des chansons, des poèmes.
Donc, on a regardé la vidéo, on a travaillé dessus et on a écrit une lettre de bon rétablissement Kate. Et ils adorent ce genre de
choses.
Les deux mots clés. CECRL, final task.
en France dans les écoles françaises le prof est considéré comme le moyen qui favorise l'exposition des enfants au un… une
langue aussi authentique que possible
Parcoursup….crée une pression inouïe sur les professeurs….les effectifs sont surchargés, enfin, nous, ils sont 39, 40. Et en
fait, on est des machines à évaluer. Et le problème, c'est qu'ils ont telle pression sur les notes…. avant Parcoursup, je faisais
des projets super avec les élèves. Avant Parcoursup, je faisais des projets super avec les élèves.
La deuxième chose qui est propre au collège, c'est la prise de parole et la spontanéité de la production et de l'interaction. Ça,
c'est les enfants petits, surtout les 6e, 5e, ont une appétence et sont très, très... contents de participer en cours.
P2 - Especially since Parcours Plus, they want to have good marks
121
P3 - lot of progression and improvements is happening in (3:20) international schools and curricula.
the international schools , they just focus on mostly on thinking…
the teachers now just know how to (10:39) elicit, how to take out the things and ideas from the students and how to make the
students get the (10:44) ideas of thinking. That is a great progression, I guess.
[government schools] they just, the only thing that they did is just take in the vocabularies and the grammar and writing skills
and reading skills, how to answer the reading passage.
Mostly I have to teach them about the things that is, that happens around the world.
So they like speaking English… [they] like using English…they don't like grammar
P4 - So in terms of methodology, they [students from poorer backgrounds] end up having a more traditional approach, like, you
know, filling the gaps exercises.
[teaching students with] behavioral problems, it's kind of survival mode. So you end up like having worksheets and trying to
work with them for 10 minutes here, 10 minutes here. But when I'm talking to you, the others are going berserk.
But now, second students are quite good at listening and at speaking, because they've grown up using their English with
English assistants.
So that [higher speaking level] allows for the methodology to be a bit more active.
try to make them learn in a more significant way
there is a fair amount of teachers, especially the newer ones, who would love to do more things, but they don't have the time
P5 - et c'est aussi un milieu différent [rurale], donc ils pensent toujours que les Français ne sont pas capables d'apprendre
l'anglais. C'est génétiquement parlant, ils ne sont pas capables.
Je crois qu'il faut vraiment des grammaires, beaucoup de grammaires, des exercices de grammaire qu'il faut faire avec les
yeux fermés à la fin, quoi, donc...
beaucoup de Français, ils disent maintenant « De toute façon, la règle, c'est comme ça ». Et je crois que c'est très, très
important.
Et surtout pour les cas français, il faut absolument de la grammaire.
faut qu'on réfléchisse là-dedans pour savoir comment faire parler nos élèves, qu'ils aient cette confiance.
Je crois qu'il faut vraiment une vraie politique, comme ils ont fait pour le français et les maths. Parce que j'adore quand ils
disent, ah oui, c'est très, très important, l'anglais.
Ils savent plus mémoriser. Ils ne voient pas l'intérêt de mémoriser. Parce que de toute façon, on a l'intelligence artificielle pour
faire ça. Ils googlent tout, de toute façon.
Donc, je trouve une vraie politique, vraiment qu'ils disent, ok, on va faire des classes plus petites, on va faire plus d'heures…Et
n'oubliez pas qu'on a tous les niveaux. J'ai une classe avec 5 dyslexiques, ensuite avec tous les problèmes de comportement.
Donc, d'imaginer déjà, ça bouge partout, ils ont 30, c'est pas possible.
P6 - Mostly, they learn about general English, you know, the grammar, the vocabulary, and a little bit reading, but most of the
other skills are not taught when compared to grammar and vocabulary. You know, speaking especially is very rarely taught.
they [middle school students] are more engaging, they are enthusiastic to learn about English lessons, especially when it
comes to with the games and the songs and lots of funny activities
But teachers, I believe, find it easier to teach grammar and vocabulary instead of teaching skills because most of the teachers
are still not good at speaking, not good at listening English, you know, and teaching grammar in the L1, of course, is easier
than that.
They don't want to train themselves. They don't want to educate themselves. They don't follow the new era's needs or
opportunities, you know, and I don't blame the curriculum and the textbooks in this case because they are really written by
some professional teachers. But teachers at the school don't use them.
And that's why new teachers with lots of new ideas and lots of enthusiasm… it (difficult classrooms) kills it, you know. And the
conditions in that places, the people lives there, I mean the parents especially, make it very hard to realize these young
teachers' dreams.
P7 - Alors moi, personnellement, je pars sur ce que je veux que les élèves soient capables de réaliser. En fait, mon idée, c'est
qu'ils fassent de l'anglais pour communiquer plus tard.
Les évaluer à l'oral, ça relève du domaine de l'impossible. Je ne peux pas avoir une conversation en anglais avec chaque
élève, c'est impossible.
Donc il y a ça et puis il y a le fait que c'est compliqué de les amener à pratiquer aussi la langue en conditions réelles. C'est
compliqué de les amener en voyage, tout est de plus en plus cher aussi.
Donc oui, en effet, il doit y avoir un problème [pas d‟épreuve au brevet], il doit y avoir cette question de la motivation qui joue.
P8 - Donc, de toute façon, il n'y a pas le choix d'utiliser l'anglais.
122