Bachelor Thesis
Communication and Workplace Social Conditions
among LGBT+ People in Slovakia
Robert Virsik
Date of Birth: 6.11.1998
Student ID: 1608332
Subject Area: Business Communication
Study Code: 033/561
Supervisors: Almut Köster, Milena Nagengast
Date of Submission: February 23rd 2022
Department of Foreign Language Business Communication, Vienna University of
Economics and Business, Welthandelsplatz 1, 1020 Vienna, Austria
Table of Contents
1. Introduction ....................................................................................................................... 3
2. Literature Review .............................................................................................................. 4
2.1. Coming out.................................................................................................................. 4
2.2. Heterosexism and heteronormativity in workplace communication .............................. 5
2.3. Homophobia and Transphobia ..................................................................................... 8
2.4. Ally Recognition ........................................................................................................12
2.5. Recommendations ......................................................................................................14
3. Data and Methods .............................................................................................................17
3.1. Method .......................................................................................................................17
4. Analysis and Findings.......................................................................................................19
4.1. Coming out............................................................................................................. 19
4.2. Differences in communication towards non-LGBT+ colleagues/clients................... 22
4.3. Ally recognition...................................................................................................... 23
4.4. Heterosexist, homophobic and transphobic experience ............................................ 30
4.5. Comparison to abroad ............................................................................................. 36
5. Discussion ........................................................................................................................39
6. Conclusion .......................................................................................................................40
6.1. Limitations to research and Recommendations for Further Research .......................42
7. Bibliography.....................................................................................................................43
8. Annex ................................................................................................................................ 1
8.1. List of Participants....................................................................................................... 1
8.2. Interview Transcripts ................................................................................................... 2
8.3. Interview Protocol ....................................................................................................... 3
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1
Introduction
Public and social institutions tend to be considered responsible for the control of
interpersonal private relationships and to heavily influence and form the opinion on them. If
they create a negative attitude towards the LGBT+ community, the workplace climate,
openness of discussion, and the morale of LGBT+ employees are affected (Reingardė 2010, pp.
84-85, p. 87). In Slovakia, the socio-political situation, and the standing of LGBT+ employees
may differ from the situation in countries in which similar studies referred to in this thesis have
been conducted. The country, at the time of this study, has not yet introduced concepts of
registered partnerships or marriages for same-sex couples, does not recognize any form of such
civil unions that have been performed abroad, does not allow adoption of children for same-sex
couples, and requires sterilization and sex reassignment surgery for transgender people seeking
to legally change their gender.
As for the public standing, only 25% of the population thinks that discrimination against
LGB people is widespread, which is the least from all member states (European Commission
2019, p. 64). However, this is not necessarily a positive signal, as only 45% of Slovaks would
feel comfortable with an LGB person in the highest political position, 54% would be
comfortable working with an LGB co-worker, and 58% would feel uncomfortable if their child
would be in a same-sex relationship. Regarding these questions, Slovakia remains among those
EU member states that are less or even the least accepting towards their LGBT+ citizens
(European Commission 2019, pp. 66-70). Therefore, I have decided to conduct this study to
find out if and how this specific socio-political situation affects the workplace communication
of LGBT+ people and if the communicational specifics are comparable to those researched in
countries with different social and political dispositions. In this way, I have formulated the
research question of this thesis as “What are the workplace communication issues that LGBT+
people face in Slovakia and how are these different to those abroad?” (1). These are outlined
by the process of coming out at workplace, differences in communication with LGBT+ and
non-LGBT+
co-workers,
ally
(and
non-supporter)
recognition,
experiences
with
heteronormativity, homophobia, and transphobia, the effect they might have on workplace
communication of LGBT+ individuals, and the ways they respond to them. The research subquestions are: “Could ally recognition be based on communication?” (2) and “What are the
3
linguistic characteristics of the responses the LGBT+ people provide when talking about their
communication issues at the workplace?” (3).
2
Literature Review
In this part, I summarize the previous studies in the areas of coming out, heterosexism
and heteronormativity, homophobia and transphobia and ally recognition at the workplace.
These studies have been provided in various countries (prevailingly in the “western” world)
with slightly varying level of social and political acceptance of LGBT+ related issues. These
findings may serve for comparison with the outcomes of our research carried out in Slovakia
and to provide necessary context for the concepts further discussed later in this study. At the
end of the chapter, I list specific recommendations for organizations and employees to improve
the communication with LGBT+ people at the workplace.
2.1
Coming Out
One of the most specific aspects of LGBT+ communication, both in private as well as
in professional life, is coming out. Coming out (“coming out of the closet”, “outing”) presents
a process of disclosing information on an individual’s sexual identity to another person or a
group of people, preparation, and decision-making process of when, how, and with whom this
information will be shared, considering all the different risks connected to it. It also has an
impact on an employee’s performance, job satisfaction, productivity, and perception of a safe
environment. Moreover, coming out can alleviate the pressure and tension from workplace
communication between colleagues, and these interactions between heterosexual and LGBT+
co-workers tend to help fight workplace discrimination (Ozeren 2014, p. 1206). Coming out at
the workplace is, depending on the position and industry, an ongoing process rather than a onetime occasion (Alsterhag 2007, p. 18), mainly depending on whether the individual works
directly with clients or in dynamically changing teams. On these occasions, it often has to be
constantly repeated with each new client or co-worker (Ellsworth et al. p. 2020). Individuals
who decide to stay closeted at their workplace often do so out of fear that their own family
could find out indirectly about their LGBT+ identity (in case they have not yet come out to
them). This can later also influence their appearance at work (for instance, choosing different
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clothing) (Reddy-Best 2017, p. 628), and result in adjusting their “body language, facial
expression, or affect” (Cox 2018, 6), or even code-switching between language and terminology
specific for the communication within the LGBT+ community and the professional, neutral
communication style (Cox 2018, pp. 6, 22).
2.2
Heterosexism and Heteronormativity in Workplace Communication
Minority stress connected to being part of a group of people undergoing (or being under
constant threat of) violence, stigmatization, discrimination, and subjection to stereotypes has
already proven to increase an individual’s mental load and harms their health. If a member of a
minority, such as the LGBT+ community, experiences this form of stress at the workplace, it
represents a professional disadvantage for them against their non-LGBT+ counterparts (Hyunh
et al. 2017, p. 2). One of the main issues LGBT+ employees have to face is their invisibility at
the workplace. This occurs either by choice, as a safety precaution to avoid risks of
microaggressions and dignity threats, or because of colleagues not willing to recognize them.
It leads to various sexual identity management tactics, such as avoiding pronouns, using genderneutral language and words when referring to a partner (using the word “partner” instead of
“wife” or “girlfriend”) and can often be seen as a result of workplace heteronormativity.
Heteronormativity describes the idea of normalizing the assumption that a group of people
consists of heterosexual individuals in a relationship (that excludes not only non-heterosexual
individuals of different gender and sexual identities, but also those, who are single, divorced,
and childless) and even if it acknowledges different sexualities, it puts the heterosexual identity
above all these (Alsterhag 2007, pp. 10-11). It is institutionalized in companies by benefits
provided for the traditional forms of families with stereotypical gender roles, communicational
norms aimed at relationships, focused on dating, marriage, etc. Thus, it can result in joking and
flirting at the workplace expecting all parties to be heterosexual, as well as a division of work
based on traditional gender roles and stereotypes related to sexuality (Giuffre and Williams
2011, p. 552).
Regarding communication, it also encompasses the perception of gay and lesbian
individuals acting as the opposite gender. Therefore, if nobody is acting on these reversed
feminine and masculine stereotypes, no one deviates visibly from this perceived norm which
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then makes it often difficult for heterosexual employees to recognize the ongoing phenomenon
of heteronormativity at the workplace (Alsterhag 2007, pp. 10-11). Similarly, in workplaces
with prevailing male employees where the men are not able to acknowledge the male
domination of the company or industry, or in the workplace environment where LGBT+ people
are non-existent or invisible, it can be difficult for their heterosexual co-workers to recognize
the ongoing heteronormativity (Reingardė 2010, p. 84). This may later lead them to believe that
there are no such individuals at the workplace, which further cements their invisibility.
However, these gender stereotypes also often influence employment decisions such as
the suitability of a job applicant or even the performance evaluation of individual employees.
“Heterosexual men tend to be rated higher on masculinity than gay men, while heterosexual
women tend to be rated higher on femininity than lesbians” (Ng and Rumens 2017, pp. 116117) by both heterosexuals and homosexuals of both genders, meaning they are more
conforming to either masculine or feminine communicational stereotypes (Ng and Rumens
2017, pp. 116-117). For example, a more masculine or “butch” appearance of women is often
automatically associated with being queer. In the lesbian community itself, “butch” women are
rejecting femininity in their appearance, highlighting their unavailability for male gender in
contrast to the “femme” lesbians who conform to the traditional gender-conforming standards
of femininity (Bairstow and Woodruff-Burton 2013, p. 363). Furthermore, men are traditionally
expected to be dominant, whereas women are expected to act submissive, which cements the
hierarchical gender inequality at the workplace (Schilt and Westbrook 2009, p. 443) and can
push individuals who do not conform to these roles into uncomfortable situations.
Visually, clothes can many times serve as an indicator and expression of one’s identity.
For instance, some lesbians identifying themselves as “butch” wear clothing traditionally
assigned to the male gender, such as that made of flannel fabric, opt for a shorter haircut, and
even bind their breasts and/or pad their lower front area. Those identifying themselves as
“femme” often wear frilly, sexier clothes and makeup. This can, however, become an issue at
those types of workplaces with a strict dress code which may often fall under the
heteronormative appearance standards, such as restricting wearing pants to the male employees,
prescribing female workers to wear makeup, and more feminine form of hairstyle. If an
individual does not conform to these standards, it may have a negative effect on their
performance and mental state at the work (Reddy-Best 2017, pp. 615-619, 625). On the other
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hand, gay men at the workplace are, according to the stereotypes, seen as more feminine and
promiscuous (Giuffre and Williams 2011, p. 556).
In light of the above, we can observe the phenomenon of normative masculinity. This
concept coincides with professional standards and suggests that stereotypically “masculine
communication equals professional communication” (Buzzanell 1999, p. 146). This type of
communication is based on being “decisive, assertive, competitive, direct, rational, activityoriented and confident” (Buzzanell 1999, p. 147) as well as “strong, agentic, charismatic”
(Curtin and Mungaray 2019, p. 197). The issue here is that even if employees that do not
naturally engage in these communicational standards imitate them, they are not usually fully
able to adapt and be a proper part of the organization or collective (Buzzanell 1999, pp. 146147). Leadership traits such as self-promotion, competitiveness, and independence are
traditionally associated with the male gender in an image of a “hero leader”, whereas communal
traits that do not coincide with this image, such as focusing on others, empowerment, and
support are traditionally associated with the female gender (Curtin and Mungaray 2019, p. 200).
Moreover, as their communication does not always coincide with the traditional
heteronormative standards, and they are deemed as less masculine, gay men are generally
perceived as less effective leaders than heterosexual men by homophobic co-workers and not
more communal or agentic than them. Because of this issue, LGBT+ are prone to experience
more problems regarding personal connections, managerial effectiveness, and communication
with their subordinates. Coming out in this position can be either a massive step towards gaining
their trust as a leader or a high-stake risk with potential career harm (Ng and Rumens 2017, p.
117).
As there are preferences for masculine modes of communication, women are pushed to
be assertive in their professional lives to fulfill this norm as well. However, if they do so, they
might be perceived as aggressive and non-feminine. The same applies to LGBT+ people who
do not act naturally on these professional standards. Therefore, they are more likely to be open
about their sexual identity in organizations or industries led by women than in those under male
control, promoting normative masculinity in workplace communication (Reingardė 2010, p.
89). Heteronormativity is a passive, negative occurrence based on the invisibility of LGBT+
people that often leads to homophobia, which, in contrast, is based on the hypervisibility of
non-heterosexual people, attacks them openly (Alsterhag 2007, pp. 10-11).
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2.3
Homophobia and Transphobia
A part of homophobia and transphobia are dignity threats and various microaggressions,
such as the use of inappropriate homophobic terminology (“dyke”), applying heteronormative
behavior patterns, an expectation of stereotypical universal life experience (inclination of
homosexual men towards art and fashion, short hair, and “butch”/masculine clothing of lesbian
women), exoticization (discussing intimate matters about sexual life in an inappropriate
manner), refusal to acknowledge own or collective homophobia, or suggestion of sexual
pathology or abnormality (being gay connected to pedophilia, being HIV positive). These
dignity threats are divided into four categories including physical and career harm, from the
point of communication, however, I will focus on social harm and autonomy violations.
Social harm is inflicted through the lack of respect in communication. To be treated
respectfully, an individual needs to be affirmed of their dignity in interpersonal communication.
If it is not the case, for example, when there are parts of heterosexist language in the
communication, either directly in the form of inappropriate jokes, slurs, names, remarks on
sexual identity, or indirectly by overhearing these or in form of gossip, the targeted individual
may undergo the risk of their social standing and degradation of self-worth (Lucas 2017, pp.
134-139). In general, LGBT+ also report these microaggressions more frequently than their
heterosexual counterparts (Bailinson et al. 2020). Apart from microaggressions, ostracism is a
serious form of social harm, based on systematically excluding or ignoring a person. Even
though it can have the same negative effect on an individual, it is more difficult to recognize
from the outside view and is also quite rarely reported (Ng and Rumens 2017, p. 116). Those
who decide not to report it, often do so “for fear of losing connections or relationships with
their coworkers” (Ng and Rumens 2017, p. 112).
On the other hand, autonomy violations come in a form of taking control of private
information and the identity of another person. These mainly concern a coming out of an
LGBT+ individual at their workplace. This can be either in a form of a forced outing or a
pressure on the employee/employees to stay “closeted” (hide their sexual identity). This is, for
instance, the case when employees are discussing their private relationship matters at work. The
same private-life or family topic usually perceived as regular among heterosexual employees
can be seen as oversharing and enforcing a different lifestyle when presented by an LGBT+
8
person. The same can apply to simple acts of physical affection such as kissing or holding
hands. Therefore, many LGBT+ workers decide to separate their private and family life more
strictly than their non-LGBT+ colleagues (Dixon and Dougherty 2013, p. 4). Lack of openness
and most importantly, being “closeted” at the workplace can result in lower productivity of
employees, and that, in turn in a professional disadvantage in their career (Alsterhag 2007, pp.
18-20). Moreover, it advertently causes a lack of role models for other LGBT+ colleagues
working in the organization (Bailinson et al. 2020).
To be able to combat these threats, LGBT+ individuals in the workplace engage in
various dignity protection strategies. These can appear in form of creating and looking for “safe
spaces” which can range from ERGs (Employee Resource Groups), through specific companies
to whole industries, regions, or countries (Lucas 2017, pp. 141, 144). As for the organizations,
smaller companies have proved to pose a higher risk for LGBT+ people as they are often built
on a few members with close relationships, which can result in hypervisibility. Moreover, flat
hierarchy structures can help to create open discussions, remove additional stress and encourage
individuals to act on their true identities (Alsterhag 2007, p. 25).
Secondly, deflecting harm and dignity threats by focusing on individual instrumental
and professional values is common among LGBT+ individuals. By providing the company with
a high-quality work output and developing professional value, they can perceivably offset most
of the threats regarding their persona and protect their self-worth. Finally, as mentioned before,
sexual identity management tactics can be engaged to protect oneself from dignity threats
(Lucas 2017, pp. 141-144). This means adapting to the heteronormative sexual and gender
roles, such as the decision not to come out, adjusting apparel, such as clothing and makeup
(women applying makeup, wearing skirts and “feminine clothing”, men avoiding makeup,
dressing according to male standards), and controlling one’s voice (men lowering their voice,
women speaking in higher tone range).
Sexual identity management and openness at the workplace in general can, however, be
enacted on multiple levels. “Passing” describes deliberately omitting to discuss the topic of
non-heterosexual identity or hiding it, negotiating own identity and designing it for
heteronormative expectations in line with traditional feminine and masculine communicational
stereotypes (Buzzanell 1999, p. 137). This often leads to the creation of two different identities:
a private one, performed naturally around people in private circles and workplace allies, and a
9
professional one coinciding with heteronormative standards. It should be kept in mind, that the
performance of two personalities can have a “tremendously negative impact on individual’s
self-worth and esteem” (Reingardė 2010, p. 86).
The workplace communication of an LGBT+ individual in the stage of passing is
characterized by dynamic, situational, and reactional interactions that are performed under a
certain level of stress so the identity of the passing individual would not be revealed (Bairstow
and Woodruffe-Burton 2013, p. 361). In some cases, gay men pursue a professional identity by
“emphasizing their similarity to straight men and distancing themselves from a campy style of
self-presentation associated with homosexuality” (Giuffre and Williams 2011, p. 557). Another
stage is “covering”, i.e., suppressing information one’s sexual or gender identity, coding
questions about workplace openness during job interviews (Buzzanell 1999, p. 137), or
avoiding the use of artifacts indicating non-heterosexual identity, which could bring the topic
of relationship into the discussion (wedding rings, family photographs).
Fewer restrictions put on own identity in the workplace result in being implicitly out.
At this stage, a person freely uses clear and direct language (formally and by content) and
artifacts pointing out their sexual identity. Alleviating the restrictions even further leads then to
affirming identity when the person encourages others to view them in accordance with their
sexual and gender identity (Reingardė 2010, p. 91). Even when out to their heterosexual and
cis-gender counterparts, LGBT+ employees develop specific communicational tactics in
workplace interactions. In general, they attempt to be more cultivated and respectful, prepare
for discussions, only engage in professional dialogue, not enter discussions on private matters,
focus on similarities with others and omitting the differences, be more aware and restricting
about their communication, emphasize the already mentioned instrumental and professional
value, interact with allies and those they can trust and finally, handle the stereotypes by either
consciously trying to avoid them or playing on them by choice, so that their discussion partner
feels at ease in the conversation (Buzzanell 1999, p. 150). LGBT+ employees may be even
more cautious with presenting their gender and/or sexual identity at the workplace because they
often feel the responsibility of representing the whole LGBT+ community. This may manifest
in an even wider measure in Slovakia, where the community is still struggling for wide-scale
social and political acceptance.
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Transphobia at the workplace is still present even within the LGBT+ community itself.
This may have multiple reasons. Firstly, as we have discussed, lesbians and gays do not always
fully conform to the traditional gender roles based on stereotypical femininity and masculinity.
As transgender people push these limits even further, some gay people may be afraid that this
could bring even more prejudice and violence towards them as well. Secondly, they might
sometimes reject the validity of transgender identity, as they compare it to their own experience
in which they have decided not to transition themselves. For instance, a feminine gay man might
refer to a male to a female transgender individual as “experiencing a phase”, as he has not
decided for a transition by himself, recognizing the similarities.
Another reason for transphobia within the LGBT+ community may be rooted in the fact
that even though homosexuality is already (at least partially) socially accepted, transgender
identity is often not. Again, certain homosexuals might be afraid of increased prejudice and
hostility towards the whole community after pushing the limits of political or social acceptance
even further (Mottet and Tanis 2008, pp. 25-30). As for the workplace integration of
transgender workers, their colleagues often apply traditional gender roles to them after
transition, including lifting heavier weights, fixing technical issues at the workplace, DIY, etc.
in the case of female-to-male transgender employees. When they can conform to these roles,
their male colleagues usually acknowledge them as men, while their female colleagues are often
not able to do so that quickly, mostly because of the conflict between their co-workers’ identity
presentation and overall appearance and their perceivably unchanged sex. Even though some
female transgender individuals transition into non-heterosexual men, their cisgender male
counterparts see them primarily as heterosexual, so they often try to overshare intimate details
from their sexual lives with them (Schilt and Westbrook 2009, pp. 448-451). Summing up,
“while both cisgender men and women treat transmen as socially male in non-sexualized public
interactions, there are gender differences in responses to sexualized public interactions. In these
situations, men gender transmen as heterosexually male based on gender presentation, while
women gender them as homosexually female on the basis of biological sex” (Schilt and
Westbrook 2009, pp. 451-452).
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2.4
Ally Recognition
One of the communicational specifics of LGBT+ people at the workplace is ally
recognition. An ally is by definition a member of a majority population advocating and
supporting a member of an oppressed minority group, either by regular support in their own life
or actively, as a member of an ally organization. They can help educate their other heterosexual
colleagues, provide safety for their LGBT+ co-workers, help them feel included in the work
environment, and ensure they are being treated equally in the organization (Brooks and Edwards
2009, pp. 137-143). This can be achieved through a process of sensemaking (Minei, Hastings
and Warren 2020, pp. 2-4), i.e., establishing patterns and schemas about groups or individuals
and applying them in real situations (in this case by an LGBT+ individual), enabling LGBT+
people to determine a potential supporter or non-supporter at their workplace.
Simplified, sensemaking is a process of putting sense/meaning into one’s experience. It
builds on the concept of shaping and constructing a person’s identity based on past interaction
with others and lived experience processed in retrospect in general. Furthermore, sensemaking
also comes as an enactment of social cues and sensible environments in which the person affects
the environment by their actions, mirroring the way they perceive it. This means, if the
environment is perceived as open, tolerant, and accepting, the person might be more willing to
be open towards others at that place and thus contribute to the openness of the environment. If,
on the other hand, the communication at this place is more impersonal, the environment strictly
heteronormative or even hostile, a person might be more prone to engage in sexual identity
management tactics, hide their sexuality, restrict their communication to professional matters
and so form an environment encouraging others to, for example, stay closeted. This can then
negatively affect the mental load of employees at the workplace. Open environments at work,
despite not being completely free of dignity threats, increase job satisfaction and help to reduce
professional anxiety (Minei, Hastings and Warren 2020, pp. 2-4).
Sensemaking is also an ongoing process, developing and changing constantly with each
new interaction. Solving and rethinking a still unresolved past situation may be interrupted by
a new communication adjusting the pattern one creates for themselves. Sensemaking also does
not have to be a one-sided process. Others can interfere in it as well in a form of sensegiving
and so helping the person in their sensemaking by clarifying aspects of communication or a
12
specific situation, usually in the form of direct messages (Minei, Hastings and Warren 2020,
pp. 2-4). For instance, sensemaking can be provided at the workplace by presenting an allied
status of an individual (interpersonal communication) or of the whole organization via various
tools of internal communication (job interviews, training, seminars, etc.). Therefore,
sensemaking is, in our case, a form of ally recognition based on one’s evaluation of their own
experience, past interactions, and behavioral patterns of their communicational partners.
In the study conducted by Minei, Hastings, and Warren (2020) in the USA, the
sensemaking as a form of ally recognition was proved to be affected by a group of demographic,
industry-specific, and experience-based factors. Among the demographic aspects, region or
country, religion, political views, being a part of the LGBT+ community, race, age, and gender
played a role when people had to identify an ally among their co-workers. For instance, a person
may be more willing to come out to a woman, a younger person, someone with an openly liberal
political orientation, a person that is a part of the LGBT+ community as well, or to someone
living in a bigger city. On the other hand, they can be more cautious around people with
conservative politics, from rural regions or non-western countries, and openly religious people
(Minei, Hastings and Warren 2020, pp. 8-15).
The age of a potential ally might be considered an important factor in sensemaking. It
has been shown that people of higher age on average were less supportive towards the LGBT+
community, even though the reason behind this is a matter for further discussion as we may
find it rather difficult to implement generational differences to this phenomenon (Hyunh et al.
2017, p. 3). Furthermore, we can also find support for the factor of the potential ally’s gender.
According to the study of Hyunh et al. (2017, p. 9), women at the workplace are “more likely
than males to feel comfortable with transgender people and to speak up against ‘anti-gay’
bullying.” Regarding the industry, LGBT+ people perceive certain areas of work and workplace
cultures as safer than others. As for the factors rooted in lived experience, the cues can be
extracted from communication (as a participant or overheard) and direct messages. When, for
instance, a co-worker speaks negatively about the LGBT+ community or even of one of its
segments, it can indicate their non-ally status. On the other hand, disclosing private information
on positive relationships with LGBT+ people in one’s personal circles or speaking up for the
cause (both examples of sensegiving) may help the LGBT+ individual receiving these
sensegiving messages to identify an ally.
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However, sensemaking often leads to conclusions that may be plausible, but also
inaccurate. This can severely affect the mental load of LGBT+ people as the risk of either being
confronted in a conflict with a non-supporter, facing open discrimination, or falling into
stereotypes and wrong judgement about co-workers can occur. (Minei, Hastings and Warren
2020, pp. 8-15) Some of the outcomes, however, can be supported by actual sociodemographical data. In the Eurobarometer study conducted for the European Commission in
May 2019, the most tolerant and open respondents on the questions regarding acceptance of
LGB people at both the workplace as well as in private life were those of female gender,
younger age (15-24), with higher achieved education, coming from urban areas, leftist political
beliefs and with friends from a minority group (European Commission 2019, p. 72).
2.5
Recommendations
Co-workers of LGBT+ people should put themselves into the position of their non-
heterosexual colleagues and acknowledge the burden of mental load connected to sensemaking,
considering the high stakes of their actions, and applying patterns and schemas into their
situation. They should be also able to protect private information on this matter provided by
their LGBT+ colleagues, especially when these work in a different country with a potentially
hostile environment. These colleagues can alleviate this burden of sensemaking by presenting
their ally status via direct sensegiving messages. These may come in verbal form of supporting
LGBT+ events, organizations, mentioning positive relationships with members of the LGBT+
community in their close personal circles, referring to co-workers with their preferred names
and pronouns, correcting other employees if they are not doing so, avoiding heteronormative
assumptions and any forms of heterosexist discrimination as well as positively responding to
another co-worker’s coming out. These co-workers or allies can further identify non-verbal
forms of communication such as diverse artifacts that they may be already using. For instance,
wearing a cross can, according to sensemaking schemas, indicate religious beliefs that may be
connected to conservative beliefs, more perceived as a potentially negative influence on one’s
decision to open up at the workplace as an LGBT+ person. On the other hand, wearing and
using Pride-themed stickers, clothes, tags, or even sharing posts on social media supporting the
LGBT+ community can be a clear non-verbal sensegiving message indicating one’s allyship
14
status (Minei, Hastings and Warren 2020, pp. 15-16). Moreover, heterosexual employees
should use gender-neutral language when talking about their employee’s partner (if they have
not been informed of their gender identity) or the employee themselves (for example, when
they might be undergoing a transition) (Alsterhag 2007, p. 42).
As for the organizations, one of the main goals is to improve ally visibility to alleviate
the mental load of sensemaking of their LGBT+ employees. This can, for instance, be provided
by means of non-verbal communication as displaying the already mentioned ally-themed
artifacts, organizing events supporting the LGBT+ community, and including the community
in its marketing. In order to create safe spaces for open communication of these employees, the
company can encourage the creation of LGBT+ Employee Resource Groups (Minei, Hastings
and Warren 2020, pp. 16-17). These can help to give voice and provide visibility for the LGBT+
workers, as well as accelerate organizational changes needed in the company and increase its
overall effectiveness (Ozeren 2014, p. 1208). This is also influenced by the fact that when an
LGBT+ individual with no other LGBT+ co-workers has to deal with their workplace issues
related to their sexual or gender identity on their own, they tend to identify these as specific
personal issues unrelated to their sexual or gender identity and, therefore, decide not to speak
about them, whereas handling these problems in a group can provide them with the needed
voice and help them identify them as a common issue (Crowley-Henry and McFadden 2017, p.
1067). In this way, it may connect people with the same experience and “reduce the feelings of
isolation that LGBT employees can feel because of their minority status in the workplace”
(Crowley-Henry and McFadden 2017, p. 1069).
Moreover, getting to know their other LGBT+ colleagues can provide LGBT+
individuals with professional role models and additional motivation. Additionally, a company
should normalize referring to non-heterosexual relationships of their LGBT+ employees in its
internal communication in the same way it does to heterosexual forms of partnership, for
example, in the workplace interactions among individual employees. This simple aspect of
communication can provide a sense of being open and welcome (Ellsworth et al. 2020). Either
in the interpersonal communication between colleagues or via internal communication channels
of a company, letting LGBT+ employees and candidates know that they will be treated in a
respectful and equal manner as their heterosexual and cisgender counterparts can be also crucial
in preventing discrimination at the workplace and in talent attraction and retention (Adams et
15
al. 2017, p. 3). A crucial step is to provide the employees with all information needed on the
LGBT+ identities and the communicational specifics connected to the people in that
community. This is even more important in the fields of education and medical help as a lack
of training and information on this matter may not only have negative consequences towards
LGBT+ co-workers, but also a heavy impact on clients and communication with them. In the
case of conflicts and incidents focused on an individual’s gender or sexual identity, the
company should encourage its employees to report these and resolve them in a transparent
manner (Alsterhag 2007, p. 41).
Organizational policies supporting LGBT+ workers have also proven to enhance their
work attitude and alleviate psychological tension. Even though it is sometimes argued that such
formal non-discriminatory policies may only worsen the situation at the workplace due to the
hypervisibility of LGBT+ employees and feeling of pressure and threat among their
heterosexual and cisgender co-workers, this has been shown to not be the case. Quite the
contrary, these policies have been confirmed as efficient, but only if rooted in the company’s
values and properly implemented in company culture and internal communication (Adams et
al. 2017, pp. 9-11).
Even in LGB-friendly organizations, transgender employees may not be fully
integrated. This might be a result of a lack of education and in some cases a still developing
integration into the LGBT+ community itself, where transphobia can still be an issue. But again,
education and experience are the important tools to handle this problem. As for direct
recommendations, companies should adjust the physical environment to be welcoming for
transgender workers (from positive references to active engagement of transgender individuals
at the workplace in the internal communication channels) and create separate restrooms and
changing rooms (avoiding the risk of transphobic hostility from cisgender employees that might
feel threatened by their transgender colleagues). In case there are restrooms at the workplace
with space for only one person, they can be signed as gender-neutral. If there are multiple, all
of them, or a couple of them can be signed as gender-neutral. The goal is to ensure that people
will not have to ask if they can use a particular restroom or not. As for communication, transinclusive language should be used when possible.
Mentioning LGBT issues, one should not restrict their references to only “lesbians and
gays” as this is a clear sign of ignoring the trans community in the organization. Employees
16
should be allowed to use their preferred pronouns and identity and if we are not yet sure about
these, it is inappropriate to assume them/their identity while referring to them (using “the man
at the table” instead of “the person at the table”) or addressing them directly (“sir”, “madam”)
(Mottet and Tanis 2008, pp. 21-24). In general, gender-neutral language is the most appropriate
and neutral in communication at the workplace (using “dear employees” or “dear colleagues”
instead of “ladies and gentlemen”). Furthermore, in written form of communication, when
conducting surveys and forms, one should use brackets signed as “male”, “female”, or “other”
instead of just “male” and “female” or simply leaving a blank box signed “gender identity:” for
the individual to write out. This can help to create both accepting environments for people with
diverse gender identities as well as to receive more accurate information from the forms and
surveys (Mottet and Tanis 2008, pp. 25-30).
3
Data and Methods
The practical part of the study: field research and subsequent analysis of its outcomes
encompasses the description of the methodology used (specifying the form and organization of
the interviews and methods used to analyze the data), data analysis structured by the interview
protocol as well as various factors that posed limits to the study.
3.1
Method
Data for the study was sourced from 14 qualitative interviews in a face-to-face (N = 3)
and online Zoom/Skype/Facebook (N = 11) form. I have decided for a qualitative form of
interviews to get specific information on respondents’ interactions as well as the complexity of
their workplace environment and provide the privacy and anonymity of a one-on-one interview.
Each interview followed a 4-question protocol with 8 sub-questions and additional follow-up
and clarifying questions. The questions related to individuals’ workplace communication
related to their sexual identity, coming out, ally recognition, and heterosexist discrimination.
The length of the interviews ranged from 16 to 75 minutes. All interviews were audio-recorded
and transcribed on 118 1,5 spaced pages. Eight interviews were conducted in Slovak and later
partially translated to English. The parts that have been left untranslated or not transcribed
17
entirely contain information irrelevant to the study (technical discussions, private matters of
respondents, parts of answers unrelated to the workplace environment, etc.). English and Czech
terms in Slovak texts are in italics, as well as Slovak terms in English text. There were not any
Czech terms in the study-relevant translated parts of the text. Explanations for certain
abbreviations such as names of NGOs, political parties, names of some famous personalities,
applications, etc. can be found in footnotes. To ensure the protection of the personal data of the
participants, each of the respondents was informed about the use of information provided during
the interview and agreed by signing a confidentiality and consent report. All the participants
are referred to by numbers for the sake of their privacy.
By request of the participants and for the protection of these organizations, names of
some companies have been intentionally left out of the transcript. Participants were recruited
by a non-probability sampling method via the author’s personal connections as well as
Facebook groups based on having had a workplace experience in Slovakia and being part of the
LGBT+ community (purposive sampling). As a part of the protocol, participants stated their
age, the industry they work in, their working position, the city they work in, as well as their
gender identity and sexual orientation. The pool of participants varied in age, industry, and
region, however, not so in sexual orientation (11 homosexual men, 1 pansexual woman, 1
heterosexual woman, and one demisexual man) and gender identity (no transgender person, 12
cisgender male respondents, 2 cisgender female respondents). Even though it was not a part of
the protocol, I observed that the participants were mostly of a similar social class and level of
education.
As for the qualitative analysis of the interviews, I created an excel chart with short notes
to each participant’s response to questions which helped me to clearly recognize the similarities
among the various answers to each question. To gather the data, I went systematically through
the interview transcripts, focusing at first on the direct response to each question, and then
scanning the whole transcript of an individual interview to find additional information relevant
to the topic. As the part about the comparison to abroad was not a component of the interview
protocol, I also scanned the whole interview transcripts of respondents who reported workplace
experience abroad as well. In case I asked them specifically on the comparison after finding out
about it during the interview, I primarily focused on that part of the transcript. This part of the
18
research also helped me to recognize specific parts of the interviews relevant to each topic and
categorize the responses quantitatively.
Afterwards, I converted all interviews into text files, then adjusted and converted them
into extensible markup language files, using the UTF-8 coding. Then, I coded the interviews
based on six text functions that follow question-related topics and the Slovakia-specific aspects.
The parts of the interview coded by these respective functions were then collected in separate
text documents and after my primary manual analysis of the interview outcomes. I have carried
out the analysis using the “word list”, “concordance” and “collocates” tools of the program
AntConc. This was done to obtain data unbiased from the human factor that could have played
a role in the primary manual analysis or reveal additional information that might have been
unrecognized by the author. The results mostly confirmed the findings from the manual
analysis.
4
Analysis and Findings
4.1
Coming Out
Under this topic, I asked my respondents following questions: “Have you or do you
consider coming out at your workplace? If not, why? If yes, how often? If yes, has your
communication with colleagues/clients changed? How?”. Out of all respondents, only one was
not out during the time of their work experience in Slovakia. This was for the reason that they
were questioning their sexuality at that time. The rest of the respondents were either fully or
partially out at their workplace. In these cases, the relationship they had with the specific
colleagues determined whether or not they would come out to them, only sharing information
revealing their sexual identity to those, who also shared their private information or have at
least developed a closer relationship with them.
Example 1
I only talked about it with people, with whom I was sure that our friendship would
last even when I would give my notice, even though, with time, it turned out as a
complete bullshit, but it was always basically only to some selected people. To the
closest ones, with whom I used to meet daily or with some certain periodicity.
(Participant nr.7, 61)
19
This can be for the one part explained by the natural process of opening up and sharing
private information with colleagues as a part of creating and developing interpersonal
relationships. On the other hand, negative aspects of their environment had resulted in these
people becoming more aware and careful about sharing private information. In the case of
participants nr. 7 and 8, these were homophobic remarks of their co-workers towards a third
person, for participant nr. 3 the presentations of openly homophobic views of the management
during the company events, for participant nr. 8 the limited acceptance of LGBT+ people in
their church, and, in the case of participant nr. 9, the assumptions of limited acceptance from
an almost all-male collective in the company and the far-right political preferences of his coworkers. The case of participant nr. 13 shows how regional differences can play a role in one’s
sensemaking and their decision to come out. Even though he was out in his job in Bratislava,
he had not even considered this step in his previous job in one of Slovakia’s eastern districts,
also emphasizing how the prevailing catholic faith in that region affected his decision. He even
stated it as the reason to leave for Bratislava. In contrast, some of the participants have claimed
to be out “naturally”, implicitly at their workplace without even having to come out at all. This
was, for instance, the case of participant nr. 11 who has worked all his professional life in
showbusiness.
Example 2
I haven’t considered it because everyone knew from the beginning. [...] And
because of that, it wasn’t necessary. Like I’ve been there, in the TV for nine years
and it’s an environment, where it is completely normal. [...] And you don’t have
to... those people had known me a bit before, so everyone knew. [...] It wasn’t even
like a one-time thing, because it would be as if my colleague came to announce me
that she’s heterosexual, so… (Participant nr.11, 122)
Even those respondents who were just partially out at their workplace sometimes
claimed to be implicit, such as in the case of respondent nr. 5, stating that they were not hiding
their sexuality from their co-workers, but at the same time that they were not the ones to
explicitly come out either. Respondent nr. 9 even mentioned a form of covering, where he
avoids referring to the gender of his partner and calling him by the gender-neutral term “better
half” instead, in order to avoid the discussion on this matter. It would not be completely right
to categorize this case as passing, as the participant stated he publicly shares information on his
sexuality on his personal social network account and would be ready to reveal it if asked about
20
it directly. A similar practice was described by participant nr. 7 when he was asked about his
expectations on future family life. This participant referred to his future partner in a genderneutral way. However, as he did not mention being openly gay at the time and only coming out
later to specific colleagues, we may categorize this situation as passing, deliberately avoiding
the topic of his sexual identity.
The frequency of coming-outs varied a lot. Those respondents who have come out, three
reported it to be a single occasion; four claimed it to have happened often (with every new
client, at each new job, once in a few months as a constant occurrence) and two respondents
stated they came out not often or sometimes. This depends on the type of work, employee
fluctuation as well as individual’s interpersonal skills (forming closer relationships with coworkers).
Out of those respondents who have come out at their workplace, five reported no
changes in communication with their clients and/or co-workers and four reported a positive
change. Respondent nr. 12 linked the lack of a change in communication after coming out to
strong company policies aimed at supporting various communities. The positive effects of
coming out included more openness around colleagues, feeling relaxed, relief, and a looser
atmosphere at the workplace, creating improved conditions for employee productivity. In case
of respondent nr. 8, it enabled him to share more with his colleague, improving his relationship
with her. The only two negative experiences after coming out were those of respondents nr. 1
and 10. Respondent nr. 10 mentioned negative reactions to his coming out in several job
interviews, without more closely clarifying their nature. However, he also further described
negative handling and cases of workplace discrimination after being employed. Respondent nr.
1 works as a psychologist and even though she described the reaction of her colleagues to her
coming out as unproblematic, the communication of her clients towards her changed.
Example 3
My communication towards them didn’t and theirs towards me a bit. Some clients
were a bit hesitant, and they wondered what they can ask me, some of them have a
bit offensive humor and they were more aware of my opinions about that kind of
humor after I came out. So, say... so they were less open, less spontaneous, but it
changed. I’ve been there for four and a half years and quite a long time so they kind
of got used to me. (Participant nr.1, 3)
21
With the use of Notepad++, I was able to code the interviews by the function of the topic.
The parts of interviews coded under the function <text function="coming out"> were
summarized in a separate document and with a help of AntConc, I was able to set up a word
list of the most used words in these parts of the interviews. Unsurprisingly, the most common
word was “I”, which can be expected in the discussion on personal matters, even in professional
life. The second most used was “it” referring by concordance prevailingly to the coming out,
then “that” indicating the LGBT+ sexual identity of an individual.
4.2
Differences in Communication Towards Non-LGBT+ Colleagues/Clients
Seven respondents stated their workplace communication with their LGBT+ co-workers
does not differ from the one with their non-LGBT+ colleagues. Out of the rest, four have
referred to differences in content. In particular, they have admitted engaging in a more personal
communication on private matters with fellow LGBT+ co-workers. The motivation for that was
mostly not the fear of potential dignity threats, but rather the common experience shared with
these colleagues. Such was the case of participant nr. 3 who reported his experience of working
as a lawyer in the insolvency administrator’s office in Bratislava.
Example 4
For sure, after all, with them it is possible to discuss other... other dimensions, things
than... than with the heterosexuals. With that being said, of course, on one hand I
respected, that these friends of mine, like don’t have... don’t have the need to listen,
for example, to some of my private things in sexual life, or anything like that...
uhm... anything, let’s say more specific than... than some of the general... general
issues. With that... with the gay crew, it was different, of course. There we mostly
used to evaluate the male colleagues, how we like them and so on, you know how…
(Participant nr.3, 23)
Respondent nr. 3 also stated that he did not wish to corrupt the view of his non-LGBT+
colleagues on the community based on his behavior, becoming more aware of his actions.
Respondent nr. 1, on the other hand, explained how the specific queer humor might not have
been completely understood by her heterosexual colleagues. Furthermore, respondent nr. 4
focused on the formal differences of the communication, admitting his communication might
have been more empathetic, bubbly, and communicative than the one of his heterosexual coworkers. Respondent nr. 8 even admitted he would welcome an ERG for LGBT+ people at his
22
workplace, as there is a severe lack of cross-team communication among the community
members at his workplace.
Using the frequency and concordance tools of the program AntConc to the parts of the
text coded by function <text function="communication with non-LGBT">, among the most
frequently used words found were, unsurprisingly, terms referring to the interactions between
the two parties such as “I”, “with” and “they” and those like “more”, “would” and “like”. The
word “more” was mostly connected in reference to the communication of the respondents with
their LGBT+ colleagues, describing their interactions as “more personal” and discussing “more
private things”, or simply describing the communication in their workplace in general,
prevailingly in positive connotation, such as “more tolerant”, and “more open-minded”. By
using the word “would”, respondents mostly analyzed alternative scenarios, not answering the
question directly, or simply creating contrasting situations to depict their experience.
Furthermore, “like” was used by describing specific situations and similarities in
communication with participants’ co-workers. The last three “I” which was the most used word
in these parts of the text, was used mostly in the way the participants had acted or perceived
certain situations (I can see, I’d welcome that, I always wink, etc.). In concordance, the word
“with” was used prevailingly before referring to a specific party involved in a workplace
interaction (with everyone, with the heterosexuals, with me, etc.).
4.3
Ally Recognition
The answers varied significantly in the participants’ sensemaking in the area of ally
recognition. This can be at least partially explained by the different situations of the respondents
regarding their position, corporate culture, specific relationships within their team as well as
other casual ambiguities that may influence their situation. The factors that affect their decision
to come out can be most comparable to those identified in the previous studies, such as that of
Minei, Hastings, and Warren (2020), but there are also some that have not been mentioned yet.
Even though Slovakia is not a large country (especially in comparison to the USA, where most
of the participants of the Minei, Hastings, and Warren study (2020) had their work experience),
the geographical aspect played one the most important roles in the participants’ sensemaking.
Six of them mentioned this aspect in some form during the interview. They all compared the
23
countryside or specifically the eastern, central, and northern central regions to Bratislava,
indicating that the co-workers, clients, and managers are more accepting and open-minded in
the capital than in the other regions. Respondent number 4 mentioned that the topic of nonLGBTI+ sexual identity is taboo in the northern central part of Slovakia based on his working
experience in the city of Ružomberok. Respondent number 8 confirmed this statement with his
own experience in a volunteering program.
Example 5
Bratislava is maybe different in this, like, when one goes somewhere to the regions
and there it’s just... then... it’s different there. And then there it is often openly
homophobic. Maybe it doesn’t relate to our topic directly, but when I’ve
encountered it while volunteering... I was active as a volunteer for several years,
and basically, I still am, and we were moving around central and eastern Slovakia
and... well, and there it is then entirely recognizable. Entirely evident, when there...
[...] Then, when there was something that had to be done, I rather sent somebody
else instead of me or simply... (Participant nr.8, 84)
The case of respondent number 10 was a specific one, as he used to work for an NGO
aimed at community service for LGBT+ people and thus, the allies mainly came to him directly,
offering help (prevailingly material) for the community. However, even he emphasized the
regional differences, highlighting that it is not that hard for LGBT+ people to find a job in
Bratislava (mostly in corporate organizations), as gender or sexual orientation is not the most
important factor and mentioned how, in general, people from the western part of Slovakia are
more open to the western values. Most of the participants, who had work experience in other
Slovak regions only came out in Bratislava, as was the case of participant number 13, who
admitted to not being out at his workplace in Vranov nad Topľou.
The next factor the respondents mentioned, politics, also obtained in the Minei, Hastings,
and Warren study (2020). Differences in acceptance were pointed out by the interviewees
between conservative and liberal co-workers. For instance, respondent number 9 stated that he
is holding back on the presentation of his sexuality around colleagues who are supporters of
Marián Kotleba, a Slovak far-right politician. On the other hand, interviewee number 11 who
works in the music/show business industry described how his workplace is open for any
political or sexuality-based discussions as all his co-workers are liberally oriented. One aspect
that was not described by previous studies and that I also observed in the discussion on coming
out is the workplace interpersonal relationships. Three respondents again mentioned the
24
importance of how close they are to a particular co-worker, how much they know each other
and how well they get along as well as the level of formality of the relationship to be able to
perceive them as an ally. This was the case for respondent number 8:
Example 6
Well, with people who I go along well with, the topic is... it is entirely open, free
and everything, with some of them, we know each other for years, years and years,
long before I became a sacristian, so... uhm... I came out some of them when I was
14 years old, so... so it’s completely different, when somebody knows you for some
time and... also, well, when one knows that it’s all right, it’s all right. [...] …it’s also
about to what measure are the relationships even formal and to what measure are
they personal, or just... The more personal the relationships, then, understandably,
when I share my life or my personal things with somebody, the more likely I also
am to come out, because it also relates to that then. (Participant nr.8, 79)
Another aspect in the ally recognition that has not been mentioned in the previous studies
but occurred in the interviews was the level of education. Some interviewees perceived coworkers with a higher level of education as more open, tolerant, and so, potential allies. On the
other hand, this aspect might also be connected to the fact that most of the participants were of
a certain level of education, and it could be, therefore easier for them to communicate with
others on the same level. This phenomenon was also described by respondent number 9 who
stated:
Example 7
Like that’s rather something that I’ve somehow empirically evaluated or what I’ve
experienced that with people with university education I just... I can tune on the
same note much faster with them and I just can... and I basically share much more
common values and opinions than with those from... that just have a high school
education, right? [...] ... yeah, well, I just somehow realized that... that with those
people who have the... the higher achieved education, it’s much better and they can
basically understand it and... and I simply don’t have to explain it to them with
difficulty as I don’t need to explain other things to them with any difficulty, right?
So, they are just able to understand it, able to get it, able to accept it and it’s fine,
so yeah, well. (Participant nr.9, 100)
On the other hand, it does not mean that a higher level of education would mean a better
and more accepting form of communication. As we can see from the case of respondent number
5, the communication might be better within a group of people of the same level of education
which may further determine the form and style of the interaction. The interviewee compares
25
his form of communication with the one of his younger gay co-worker who works in the same
workplace on a lower hierarchical level with a lower level of education. The communication
his colleague had with his female colleagues is described as more mundane, jovial, and
spontaneous, delving more into sexual topics. On the other hand, the interviewee describes the
communication the same co-workers have with himself as more polite and impersonal as he set
clear limits for this. He explained the reason for this as follows:
Example 8
Uhm, it can be... uh, rather in this, uhm, in this form which I’m talking about it can
be and not because of hierarchy but rather… uh… personal amenities, I don’t want
to say intelligence, but rather personal amenities, but that also results from hierarchy
and education, right? The higher form of education you have, the people are adapted
for communication differently, meanwhile if I, comparing it to my colleague, he
stayed with his education at the high school level, I have the third university grade,
so I maybe even took on the habits, communicational capacities during studies by
working with those people. (Participant nr.5, 43)
Here the interviewee also already touched on another aspect of sensemaking which
influences the form of interaction as well: hierarchy. He admitted to the hierarchy influencing
how the other colleagues communicate with him. Being in a higher position in a workplace with
a stricter hierarchical structure, he was able to set certain limits in his workplace communication
with his co-workers which they had to respect. On the other hand, respondent number 3 had
found himself in a position of a subordinate experiencing openly homophobic comments from
the members of the senior management of his company. He decided not to open the discussion
on this matter or even come out to them out of the fear of making enemies with a supervisor
who was in an authoritative managerial position. We may state that in this case, the strong
hierarchy made the coming out process of the individual more difficult or even non-existent,
avoiding even the discussion on the matter of homophobia within the organization. On the other
hand, respondent number 6 who described his workplace as an open and accepting one also
described the hierarchy in his company to be rather flat. This coincides with the findings of
study by Minei, Hastings, and Warren (2020). Another aspect also mentioned in the study and
confirmed by certain interviewees was age. Three participants admitted that age has some effect
on their sensemaking by ally recognition. Participant number 6 particularly connected the issue
of acceptance to generational differences and also stated that this issue is also present at other
social topics:
26
Example 9
Like, the older generation, I would say, they have this border of what is appropriate
and what is inappropriate much… in much different level, but it doesn’t… uhm…
It is not just in relationship to LGBT problems and problematics, but… but to, like,
women and, like, much wider top… uhm, scope of topics. (Participant nr. 6, 51)
A similar issue has been already described above by the case of respondent number 3.
He too recalled that the age of the managers in his company might have affected what kind of
humor they deemed as appropriate and on their understanding of the situation. Another
interviewee who touched upon this topic was participant number 8. Similarly, he said in the
interview that in his sensemaking, the generation gap plays at least a partial role, even though
it might not be a strict rule for him. Two other aspects of ally recognition described by Minei,
Hastings, and Warren (2020) was mentioned explicitly by one single participant. Respondent
number 9, who admitted to being only partially out at his workplace, engaging in sexual identity
management in form of passing and is not considering discussing the topic of his sexuality,
mentions the factors of industry and gender in his interview:
Example 10
It’s true that now I work in… in an IT company, where there’s basically an all-male
collective or nearly all-male collective, so I don’t deal with that there, even though
I think that… uh, well, the people aren’t dumb and they’ll guess it, considering that
I basically never talk about my partner like “my man told me something today” or
so, so I always say it like “my better half told me”, yeah and I always say “my better
half” and so, because I’m not completely sure how would they take it… (Participant
nr. 9, 93)
The same participant also mentioned another factor described in the study of Minei,
Hastings, and Warren (2020): religion. During his interview, he described the personal issue he
has with his boss who has more radical far-right political beliefs and did not get along with the
interviewee from the first day. The respondent also told how he found out about his boss’s
former collaboration with a Christian conservative political party KDH (Christian Democratic
Movement) and connected his attitude via sensemaking with experiences shared with him by a
colleague. As he had already had previous negative experiences with religious people, he also
used it to assess the non-supporter status of his boss:
27
Example 11
It’s just happened, and I’ve just had a suspicion for a long time that this is the
problem, yeah, because I’ve found somewhere on the discs that he’s simply done
some campaigns for KDH and I said, oh my god, that... that... But at the same time,
I have never felt that he’d be any religious or that it would... Even though
a colleague told me after that, that his... his life dream had been to meet Jesus. Then
I said, oh, ok, but that’s fine, I totally accept it if someone believes and so on, I’ve
just kinda put those people in a box, that these are the ones that... that I’m not
interested in, these people don’t accept me at all and literally have an issue with it,
so really... (Participant nr. 9, 99)
A particularly specific situation was described by respondent number 12. She works as a
program project manager in developing teams in a corporation in Bratislava, a company wellknown for its attendance at Pride events and creation of open and accepting space for the
LGBT+ community where she manages and oversees an LGBT+ ERG. According to her, all
employees who consider themselves to be allies approach the ERG and receive various artifacts
indicating their ally status. She and other members of the community do not, and therefore they
need to undergo the mental load of sensemaking and ally recognition, as the ally status is clearly
visible via artifacts. Unless the employees approach the ERG themselves, she stated she has no
way of knowing their ally status. I also discussed the topic of ERG with other interviewees.
Respondent number 8, for instance, who is only partially out at his workplace and in no direct
contact with another LGBT+ co-worker, expressed a need for such a cross-team organization
that would provide a space for meeting and discussion of the LGBT+ employees. On the other
hand, according to respondent number 13 who is publicly out and works in the same corporation
as respondent number 12 and is even active in the same ERG, the employees of the company
are too busy to actively attend the meetings and events of the group.
The participants did not only evaluate the potential ally status of their colleagues by
demographic and relationship-based factors. The prevailing number of the respondents has also
mentioned certain aspects (in both form and content) of their communication that they evaluate
via sensemaking. The most addressed part was the vocabulary used by co-workers at the
workplace. The most common factor of ally recognition among the interviewees was the
vocabulary used by their colleagues. This encompassed names and labels as reported by
participant number 3. He specified that these were addressed to the members of the LGBT+
community members indirectly and in general, calling them disgusting. Respondent number 4
explicitly stated how the use of vocabulary affects their recognition of potential allies:
28
Example 12
In Slovakia, recognizing if somebody supports or if somebody is at least
knowledgeable about issues regarding the LGBT community, they choose…
uhm… their vocabular and their words more… uhm… precisely and they are more
aware of what they’re saying so probably it’s the way how people communicate
things and how inclusive they are in regards of what they’re saying. So, I think
that’s… that’s the main… that’s how I determine it... (Participant nr. 4, 29)
On the other hand, respondents number 1 and 14 reported the communicational factor
more generally, mostly identifying the potential allies based on their coming-out reaction.
However, respondent number 1 also mentioned another factor that is not present in the previous
studies: toxic masculinity. She shared that people who tend to get competitive, harsh, and have
a preference for what she called masculine things usually have a negative attitude towards
LGBT+ issues, either because they are uneducated or simply homophobic. She further specified
the red-flag masculine behavior after an additional question:
Example 13
Competitive sports for example… uhm… heavy drinking [laughter] I, I don’t know,
I might be wrong about this but to me it just associates with… with strong or toxic
masculinity. Yeah, maybe working out and, that… dominance in general.
(Participant nr.1, 4)
Respondent number 8 shared an experience of overhearing a passive-aggressive negative
comment on the homosexual orientation of a job applicant at their work in the HR department
of the ministry. As he had only been partially out at work at the time, he decided to not come
out to that particular colleague at all as the reaction made him feel unsure and perceived that
his co-worker may have certain prejudices. This participant has also mentioned another
communicational factor in one’s sensemaking: stereotyping other minorities. This may for him
mean that the given colleague has a tendency to stereotype and is, therefore, more prone to also
have stereotypical opinions about gay people. The same aspect was also described by
respondent number 9 as a red flag.
Summing up, respondents engaged factors such as geography (regional differences, urban
vs rural environment), politics, interpersonal relationships, level of education, hierarchy
(organizational structure, participant’s job position), age, industry, gender, and religion in their
sensemaking. Communicational aspects that reportedly helped them identify allies at work
encompassed artifacts, vocabulary used by their colleagues, reaction to their coming out, toxic
29
masculine behavior, explicit expression of homophobic prejudice, and stereotyping other
minorities. Most of these factors confirm the findings from the previous studies such as the one
by Minei, Hastings, and Warren (2019), others (level of education, hierarchy, toxic masculinity)
have not yet been described as sensemaking tools.
After creating a frequency list and running concordances through AntConc, I found out
that the most used word in the answers on sensemaking was “I”, prevailingly located in topics
describing the person’s actions by ally recognition and their perception of the given situation.
The third most frequent word was “it”, mainly in concordance with getting comfortable around
colleagues and coming out, generally referring to one’s sexual identity. One of the most used
words was also “people” (used times in discussion on this topic). Interestingly, this was mostly
used in the positive context of acceptance at the workplace and rather indirectly and
hypothetically when talking about potential negative experience, which may indicate prevailing
positive workplace experience of the participants. We will take a closer look at these
experiences under the next question’s topic.
4.4
Heterosexist, Homophobic and Transphobic Experience
The last parts of the interviews were centered upon negative experiences the respondents
may have faced during their work experience in Slovakia that related to sexual or gender
identity. I have also not only asked for the experiences affecting them indirectly, but also
observed indirect actions at the workplace. I was also interested in their reactions to these
situations and how or whether it affected their workplace communication. Out of the 14
respondents, only two reported not having experienced any form of discrimination related to
their sexual or gender identity at their workplace. Most of the respondents who have
experienced it mentioned inappropriate jokes about non-heterosexual identity. These were
either general, overheard, or aimed directly at the interviewee. In case of participant number 1,
these were also aimed at her heterosexual colleague who happened to be interested in drama
and acting, areas considered feminine by these fellow employees. The incident made the
participant change her workplace communication, not willing to talk with the colleague and
responded by explaining them the possible effect of their actions.
30
Example 14
Most of the time I respond by explaining why it might be hurtful to… to some
people or how I feel about it and how other queer people could feel about it if they
heard it and I talk about how it enforces the stereotypes and prejudices and stuff.
[...] I was quite angry at first with my colleagues because I don’t think a
psychologist should have this type of humor, even if it’s considered fun and they…
they say they don’t really mean it. It’s already been said, and people hear it, they
react, so I think they should be more aware of their surroundings and reflect all
those words. So, for about a week I… I didn’t really want to talk to my colleagues.
It was… it was a strange atmosphere at work, and we resolved it… yeah after a
week or so when one of them came to me and said he noticed what’s happening and
said he’s sorry. He basically apologized. (Participant nr.1, 5)
This situation could be perceived as a positive example of perpetrators realizing their guilt
and effect of their actions and expressing apologies. However, we should keep in mind that
such events should not occur at all. Even more interestingly, several participants reported not
minding these types of jokes, even taking part in positive reactions to them or having a laugh
with the given person, an effect not described in the previous studies. According to respondent
number 3, these jokes can affect one’s communication if there is some rooted aversion or
hostility behind them. In the case of respondent 4 who was not out at his previous workplace,
the jokes, as well as some comments, were addressing queer people in general, although they
only started after he came and went on with the discussion of flamboyant appearance and
behavior of queer people, indicating that he might be gay. As he later stated, even as these
experiences made him hesitate to present his sexual identity and hindered his internal coming
out and acceptance process, he marginalized them, and they did not cause any further traumatic
effect.
Among other verbal forms of workplace microaggression, homophobic slurs, names and
labels were reported by several interviewees. For instance, the colleague of respondent number
7 used a homophobic slur when referring to the company’s economic partner, willing to inflict
more harm by attacking what she might have perceived as his weakness. As the interviewee
was accustomed to the environment at the time, he did not respond or changed his
communication with this colleague in any way as he had not developed any closer personal
relationship with her anyways. Furthermore, the boss of participant number 9 used to refer to
gay people with homophobic slurs (which he, reportedly, did towards other minorities, such as
Roma people), with the interviewee responding by engaging in sexual identity management
tactics in form of passing as heterosexual. The use of the slurs stopped at one point when the
31
boss supposedly found out through other employees about the interviewee’s sexual identity,
resulting in a unique form of workplace interactions where both knew about the fact that the
other person is aware of the information, without referring to it, creating tension. Unfortunately,
the use of slurs remained present among other employees of the company.
The phenomenon of heteronormativity was strongly present at the workplace of
participant number 1. It mirrored itself in communicated heteronormative expectations and
questioning her sexual identity after her coming out and sharing her relationship issues. Now
in an opposite-sex relationship, the questioning quit and was replaced by more positive
reactions to her relationship.
Example 15
I felt it quite strongly from my colleagues, especially when they talked about family
and childbearing and they… mostly the older colleagues, they don’t mean anything
bad by it, but they… they had questions if I’m really planning to… to stay with my
female partner, who is now my ex. I… I… might have… or… yeah. Hmm… I
talked about them a lot about my… my ex because that relationship was very
problematic, so I needed to vent, and they were like: “But is it real? Do you really
feel it?” Yeah, I did but they… they… I don’t feel like they believed me.
(Participant nr.1, 4)
Interviewee number 2 reported being ignored by some of his colleagues for his sexual
identity. Some of them, on the other hand, were a bit hostile or attempted to force him into a
coming out, in which he did not cooperate. However, workplace communication did not change
after these incidents. Similar to jokes, (as I have already briefly mentioned in the previous
discussion), negative comments and remarks on one’s sexuality were experienced by
respondents either targeting them personally, the queer community in general, or a third person.
I have already mentioned the negative comments about queer people that respondent number 3
overheard from his top management. His response was one of aversion and it affected his
communication by his engaging in sexual identity management during workplace interactions,
such as hiding the fact he spent his time with his boyfriend when asked about his weekend
activities, saying he went out with someone else instead or simply engaged in another activity
by himself.
Respondent number 8 also reacted in a similar way to the situation I touched upon in the
previous part. After some negative comments on the sexuality of a job participant, he also
engaged in a form of sexual identity management and decided not to come out to the colleague
32
who made these remarks. In addition, he also experienced microaggressions in form of his
colleagues mocking his behavior and tone of voice, which he perceived may be related to his
sexual identity. Even though he stated he reacted by letting go of these situations, he admitted
that his communication became more distant, formal, and limited to the necessary minimum
with these co-workers. This reaction was quite common among respondents. Even though five
of them reported providing no reaction towards these situations at all, ignoring the actions,
laughing in the faces of the aggressors, or simply letting it go, some stated that they began to
keep some distance from the specific colleagues. In the case of participant number 4, this was
only cemented by his uncertainty and questioning his sexuality at the time.
Quite specific was the experience of respondent number 14 who reported having suffered
severe career harm because of his sexual orientation. Twice, he was a candidate for a certain
high position: once as an ambassador of Slovakia for the Holy See, the second time as the
chairman of the Institute of National Memory. This happened despite his being publicly out at
the time (and long before he applied for the position), even bringing his partner to various public
job events. The first time he was denied the post after the nuncio found out about his sexual
identity and when the information was spread among the Slovak conservative circles at the
time, the party proposing his candidacy denied knowing him at all.
Example 16
…that was in the year 1995 when I… I was a director of the Church Department of
the Ministry of Culture and in that time I was also in a quite close relationship with
professor [name], who was a vice-chairman of the National Council and we used to
meet on the grounds of the Club of Christian Initiatives and it happened that I... at
certain time I was proposed as a potential candidate for the post of an ambassador
to the Holy See. Well, and it... it obviously took certain time and eventually resulted
in professor [name] called me and informed me confidentially that the Holy See
had informed me through the apostolic nuncio that... uh... given that I am gay, I
cannot be the ambassador to the Holy See, the ambassador of the Slovak Republic.
Then I, obviously, also asked for a discussion with the nuncio himself. Nuncio
denied it, but I think that only diplomatically, because he was avoiding this issue
and... uh... it was clear to me that in fact somebody took charge, and somebody
passed him the information that I am gay. And it happened for the second time when
I was already working in Matica Slovenská and at the time it was necessary to fill
the post of the chairman of the Institute of National Memory and the chairman of
National Party, the Slovak National Party [name] who was… it was in his
competency to give a proposal for filling the post of the chairman of the Institute of
National Memory had addressed Matica Slovenská and I was addressed by the
chairman of Matica Slovenská [name] whether… whether I was willing to accept
33
this position and we both visited the chairman of the Slovak National Party [name]
who… uh… after an interview with me deemed appropriate to take me as a
candidate of the Slovak National Party. But in the next day or two, articles appeared
in the press informing that… uh… [name of respondent] cannot be the ambassador
to the Holy See because... it was not stated there why, but it began for one part with
member of parliament [name] telling publicly that he would not be voting for me,
so it was clear from the ultra-conservative Christian currents from within that…
that [name] had been informed about… about me being gay and then… uh… even
[name] himself said he did not know me, so… uh… And moreover, he called the
chairman of Matica Slovenská why he proposed a gay for the post. So, I told the
chairman of Matica Slovenská that in the case he does not know me… not in the
case that he considers me a gay man, but in the case that he does not know me, I am
giving up my candidacy. (Participant nr.14, 140)
After this incident, his communication with the vice-chairman of the National Council
changed, despite remaining on good terms in private life, the communication with the chairman
of Matica Slovenská did not change at all, but after the short and intense publicity, a new
chairman was quickly elected for the position. Unfortunately, respondent number 14 was not
the only one to experience career harm based on his sexual orientation. The experience of
respondent number 10 was the most diverse and intense one. He experienced various forms of
attacks based on his sexuality and foreign heritage ranging from slurs, disadvantaged working
conditions, career threats, mocking, sexual harassment to a forced outing, stereotyping, and
other forms of verbal abuse. The negative experience began mostly with job interviews. In his
first job in Slovakia, his employer tried to manipulate him based on his heritage, social standing,
and sexuality to economically exploit him, going as far as calling him a “faggot” in front of all
his co-workers.
Example 17
In the first company where I used to work I was a part of a call center and I had the
experience that people knew I was LGBTI, they didn’t know whether I’m gay or
something else, but they tried to get such a performance from me that I was working
in a sitting position for an hour and had to be standing for another hour and just
communicate via telephone line and when I sat down, I’d just have to send emails
and recommend in a marketing way how to simply solve some situations and a
conference company could get a customer. And often a man came, who was a
Slovak and just told me: “You know what? You’re a basic faggot and you are going
to do everything I want you to, you have to come fifteen minutes before the start of
working hours. If you won’t, this one from India, this Indian… will be working at
your place for 350 euros net.” And I used to work for some 450, 500 euros in net.
So… uh… it was also an abuse from a financial point of view, but the worst thing
34
was that he called me a faggot in front of the whole team, in front of the whole
room. (Participant nr. 10, 112)
This experience affected him for the long term, causing sleep deprivation as he was also
forced to work from home at night in addition to the daytime. The discrimination, however, did
not come only from this superior. His co-workers were mocking him, calling him feminine
names when he brought them home-cooked lunch to the workplace. Moreover, he reported that
one of the managers had a habit of having each of his new subordinates, regardless of gender,
come to his office and perform oral sex on him. When the interviewee found out about it and
was called to the office for the first time as well, he brought his superior home-baked cookies
as a form of resistance. The interviewee responded by telling his partner about all of these
practices in the firm and he sent an anonymous initiative to the Labor Office and the Labor
Inspectorate, resulting in both of the managers quitting their jobs and leaving the company.
Milder forms of sexual harassment also continued in other companies, where some of his coworkers tried to “seduce” him, despite being aware of his relationship, objectifying him for his
body type. In some other companies, he experienced, as mentioned, a dignity threat in form of
a forced coming out. As described by the participant, these small-sized businesses exploited
private information on his sexuality in order to attract bigger, creditworthy corporations which
are interested in working with companies that are focused on protecting human rights.
Such as in the case of respondent number 1, respondent number 10 also shared some
experience of heteronormativity (bordering with exoticization) coming from his clients,
receiving questions on who is the “male” and who the “female” part in his relationship or stating
that one would not be able to recognize his sexuality based on his speech. He also described the
experience of his peers working for one of the Slovak commercial radios, where these gay
employees were objects of abuse, manipulated by their sexuality (exploiting it as a weakness),
and evaluated based on their sexual orientation rather than professionalism and personal
qualities. This, according to interviewee number 10, is still a common practice in many Slovak
companies. In yet another company, he reported being called a “fat swine” and a “fat faggot”
by his boss who also had aggressive sexual remarks on him. As for his reaction in all these
instances, the interviewee claimed to always try to find a common way with these people in
mutual conversation. Although his other co-workers never supported him explicitly at the
35
workplace in these situations out of fear of their abusive superiors, he admitted that some of
them communicated their support when meeting him outside the job.
With the use of AntConc, I found that the most frequent words are those as in the previous
topics, such as “I”, “that” or “we” and despite the fact that they were mostly used in the context
of describing certain actions and feelings of the participants, the results were too diverse to
provide any consistent data. On the other hand, if we look at specific word types, we might find
certain linguistic specifics in the communication. The five most used nouns were “people”,
“jokes”, “example”, “person” and “time”. Here we may observe that when talking about their
negative workplace experience, respondents used neutral description such as “person”, or
“people” when referring to either the perpetrators of homophobic acts, or simply talking about
how the situation could be improved by interactions with the employees in their respective
organizations. The high frequency of the word “jokes” is consistent with how often the
participants have experienced this type of microaggression. Unsurprisingly, the frequency of
the word “example” corresponds with the question on the respondents’ own specific
experiences. Furthermore, the word “time” was used mostly while discussing the varying
frequency of the negative situations or the responses to them.
4.5
Comparison to Abroad
With five respondents having a job experience in Slovakia as well as abroad, I have also
collected some data that may help us provide a comparison of the workplace communication
and social issues faced by LGBT+ employees in different countries and identify some cultural,
social, and political aspects specific to Slovakia that may have some effect on them. Respondent
number 2, for example, was forced to leave the country with his husband as the state does not
recognize same-sex marriages, and his spouse, a New Zealander who worked in the same
organization, was not able to get his working visa extended, even after three attempts. After
moving with him to New Zealand, he compares the communication at both of his workplaces,
mentioning that, for instance, the jokes aimed at the queer community are pretty much the same
at work in both countries, being related more to some general “macho” culture than to a certain
national one. He personally remains optimistic about the general attitude of Slovaks towards
the LGBT+ community, seeing the political homophobia merely as a tool of far-right parties in
36
attracting voters, mentioning various examples of people expressing their support for him after
his story was publicized in Slovak media. According to him, the public needs more debate and
education on this matter in order to open up.
Respondent number 3 was at the time of the interview already living in the Czech
Republic which already has laws providing registered partnerships for same-sex couples. In
contrast to his work experience in Slovakia, the interviewee claimed not having to engage in
sensemaking at all. With no negative experience related to LGBT+ issues, he had not had to
take on the mental load of ally recognition and had not used passing or other sexual identity
management strategies, being implicitly out at his workplace. A similar difference was
described by participant number 4. Comparing his work experience in Britain with the one he
had in Slovakia, he indicated how the social norms are different when coming across
homophobic language at the workplace:
Example 18
…in the UK… uhm… when… I think I didn’t really have to differentiate to… I…
it was hard to differentiate, because everybody was very empathetic, everybody was
very thoughtful and aware of how they communicated and, of course, they did not
use very explicit words, like… of course, like faggot and those kinds of words. They
were aware that they might be insulting and they… they were aware of the fact that
any of their colleagues might be offended by that without them knowing their sexual
identity. Whereas in Slovakia, those words are used more commonly without any
further consequences, without environments or… let’s say I would use that word,
let’s say, maybe as a straight guy and in Slovakia I would not be afraid of… of the
public feedback, of instant feedback from my… from the community saying: “Oh,
it’s… it’s not… it’s not correct, what you’re saying” or “it’s… you should not say
it”, you know? “It’s… why would you say a thing like this”, whereas in the UK,
there would be instant feedback from all colleagues, from anyone pretty much,
uhm… highlighting the fact that it wasn’t correctly used or that I shouldn’t have
used it, because it’s… So, uhm… So, I see those differences between those two
environments. (Participant nr. 4, 29)
He also described that the topic of one’s sexuality was not discussed at the workplace,
unless the person was interested in developing a romantic relationship with their co-worker. On
the other hand, his colleagues in Slovakia were accustomed to socializing more and discussing
even more private issues with each other, which then led to events described in previous parts.
However, the situation in other countries cannot be generalized in some common experience,
as we know by the results from the studies conducted abroad as well as from other interviews,
such as that of respondent number 13. He also had a work experience in Britain and claimed to
37
be a witness to jokes and other forms of homophobia towards his gay supervisor in a smaller
family hotel, indicating again that the same negative experience can be lived in both countries,
regardless of the public acceptance grade towards LGBT+ issues.
To illustrate the perceived attitude of the Slovak public, participant number 10 who has
worked in some of the Slovak NGOs focused on the promotion of LGBT+ rights said the
following:
Example 19
There are enough people who just aren’t concerned with it, whether someone is
LGBTI, but they just look at their personality [...] LGBTI people are just a burden
for the Slovak government and Slovak society, but international organizations and
international... governments are simply trying to elevate human rights to a different
level than the post-communist one that is currently more or less present. [...] And
the mečiarism hasn’t vanished yet, because people that want to become successful
politicians are grabbing on the post-communist opinion about LGBTI people and
simply about the family values. (Participant nr. 10, 114)
Even as I was not able to conduct interviews with transgender respondents at the time of
the field research, I have received indirect information on the work experience of one
transgender person from participant number 12. This employee was at the beginning of
undergoing transition. As a company, she claimed they were able to provide him support in
form of discussion, but they were unable to change a simple thing such as work email to his
new name, because of the obstacles of the Slovak legal system. Now this Slovak branch of a
global corporation actively investigates in cooperation with their foreign IT counterparts if they
can change the address in future cases without having to overcome issues bound to the Slovak
law. Additionally, the company also began to organize various educational events on the topic
of transgender issues.
By using AntConc, I found out the most frequent word in describing the specifics of the
Slovak work experience and the situation in the country was “the”, mostly used in concordance
with words such as “acceptance”, “backlash”, “beginning”, “communication”, “legal”,
“debate” and “LGBT”, illustrating the public or personal reaction to the non-heterosexual
identity and the issues faced by queer employees in different countries. Particularly interesting
were the collocates of the second most frequent word: “I”, used mostly with “didn’t” or “don’t”
in phrases such as “I did not consider it”, “I don’t find it important”, “I don’t know” or “I don’t
38
support” which may indicate a simple level of carelessness or actual comfort with their current
situation (either in Slovakia or abroad).
5
Discussion
Summing up, I have found out during the interviews that most participants who came
out had to do it repeatedly with varying frequency, depending on their type of work with no
change of workplace communication at all, or a positive one, helping them to be open, feel
more comfortable in their work and develop closer relationships with their colleagues. The
majority of participants reported no difference in their workplace communication with
heterosexual (cisgender) colleagues compared with those who were part of the LGBT+
community. Those who did mention only more openness on relationship and sexuality topics
with fellow queer co-workers based on shared mutual experience. Factors that affected
interviewees’ sensemaking were diverse and encompassed those described in the previous
studies such as age, geography, politics, religion, gender, hierarchy, or industry as well as those
that came up either explicitly or implicitly for the first time in this study such as education or
relationship with the specific colleague or client. It was, however, made clear by several
participants that these aspects are not taken into account by them by rule in all situations, and
that they count on exceptions in each category.
Communicational aspects also played a significant role in ally recognition, consisting
of the vocabulary used by the specific co-worker, stereotyping other minorities, or the presence
of toxic masculinity. Unfortunately, only two respondents did not report any form of
homophobic or heterosexist discrimination. Most of the interviewees experienced jokes aimed
at LGBT+ identity, negative comments, labels, slurs, use of names and remarks, either aimed
at them, queer people in general, or at the third person. Other forms of abuse came in form of
forced outing, mocking, heteronormative expectations, questioning sexual identity, ignoring,
career harm and threats, stereotyping, and attempted forced outing. These are all specific to the
workplace experience of LGBT+ employees. Interestingly, a big part of participants who
experienced jokes aimed at their non-heterosexual identity did not respond negatively to these,
even taking part in them. This may also be based on the phenomenon described by some of
them that the acceptance of jokes or slurs is much higher in Slovakia. Most of the interviewees
39
responded similarly to other forms of abuse as well: by ignoring, walking away, or letting it go.
Only on two occasions, they either contacted the authorities or explained why the action was
wrong. The majority did not register any change in communication after these incidents and if
so, then by them keeping more distances, being aware, engaging in sexual management
strategies or keeping the interactions more formal and in minimal measure.
Answering the second part of the research question, I did not find any major differences
in the coming out process. On the other hand, I have observed higher tolerance towards the use
of homophobic slurs, offensive jokes in Slovakia, and that, as we learned from participants nr.
2 and 12, the ignoring of LGBT+ issues from the side of the Slovak legal system might
negatively affect social conditions of LGBT+ people in Slovakia. The high level of acceptance
of open discrimination at the workplace may sometimes also result in serious career harm, such
as in the cases of participants nr. 11 and 14.
6
Conclusion
In this study, I tried to answer the research question “What are the workplace
communication issues that LGBT+ people face in Slovakia and how are these different to those
abroad?” (1) as well as additional research questions of whether the process of ally recognition
may be based on communication (2) and what are the linguistic characteristics of the responses
the LGBT+ people provide when talking about their communication issues at the workplace
(3). To properly answer the research questions, I identified the communication issues LGBT+
people have to face at their workplace as coming out, sensemaking, confronting heterosexism,
homophobia and transphobia and reacting to it (for instance, in form of sexual identity
management tactics) based on the theoretical research provided in the first part of the thesis.
In the literature review, I further analyzed these issues: recognizing coming out as an
on-going process at the workplace, presenting how heteronormativity in workplace
communication affects minority stress of LGBT+ employees, how it may evolve to homophobia
and transphobia in form of microaggressions, and other dignity threats. Consequently, I also
described various sexual identity management tactics used by queer individuals at workplace
to defend themselves from these threats. I also provided information on ally recognition and
sensemaking, identifying factors that help LGBT+ individuals recognize potential allies at the
40
workplace. These come in form of general facts about the potential supporter (even the
workplace itself) or in form of specific features of communication.
The research confirmed the theoretical basis for the most part. However, certain
information became more transparent. For instance, coming out at the workplace was not a
definitive process for a lot of respondents, as the phenomenon of partial coming out emerged
in several interviews, indicating that an individual might be out to a part of his workplace, one
single colleague or even only at one of their workplaces. It also brought up new information on
how LGBT+ people may recognize their allies (or non-supporters) at the workplace. As an
answer for my research question, majority of the participants reported certain aspects of
communication (either verbal or non-verbal) as indicators in their sensemaking. As for
heteronormative and homophobic experience, jokes were by far the most reported form of
microaggression, and the prevailing responses of participants to these experiences depicted the
high acceptance of such acts and discriminatory communication towards queer community in
Slovakia. The comparison to abroad in participants’ work experiences did not show any relevant
differences in the actual forms of communication, but the significant difference in societal
acceptance towards LGBT+ people could be recognized in the willingness to come out and
acceptance of homophobia at the workplace.
To answer the third research question, corpus analysis of the transcripts was made with
the above-described tools of AntConc. In general, sensitive language was used when describing
interactions with colleagues or the workplace itself, showing participants’ sensitivity towards
environment. Quite frequent was also the use of alternative scenarios and examples, which,
mostly positive, may indicate a desire for change. When talking about the negative workplace
experiences, respondents used neutral language when addressing the colleague with whom they
had this kind of conflict or when talking about the response of other co-workers to the situation.
This may indicate either the disassociation with the individual or careful discussion about the
person, aimed to avoid specifying the individual’s identity. Finally, negative wording in
discussing comparison to abroad work experience could refer to certain carelessness and
discomfort about the current socio-political situation in Slovakia regarding the acceptance of
LGBT+ people.
To improve the workplace communication of LGBT+ people at the workplace, I have
summarized various recommendations for organizations and employees. To improve the
41
acceptance, and with it both the workplace communication and social conditions of LGBT+
people in Slovakia, the main recommendation is to provide relevant information and experience
on this matter. Coworkers of LGBT+ people might engage in explicit sensegiving, and the
companies should be able to adjust their internal communication channels to improve the
conditions for communication with LGBT+ employees, including the use of gender-neutral
language when possible.
6.1
Limitations to Research and Recommendations for Further Research
While being successful in conducting interviews with respondents of diverse industries,
regional backgrounds, and age groups, it might be interesting to analyze the experience of
transgender people, people of different social classes, and levels of education. There are
significant communicational specifics in the workplace communication of transgender people
(using preferred pronouns and identity, the experience of undergoing transition, etc.) that cannot
be covered by the data extracted from the interviews of cisgender people. Furthermore, there is
a possibility that people with a similar social status and level of education might experience
similar aspects of communication and a similar amount of heterosexism at their workplace.
Having interviewed only two women, this aspect comes as a certain limitation for the study as
well. We can explain this by the fact that there are fewer women out in the workplace due to
being already often discriminated against for their gender (Bailinson et al. 2020). Collecting
experience from people of different social statuses and educational backgrounds might bring a
more complex image of the situation of communication of LGBT+ people in Slovakia. I would
also highly recommend a quantitative study in this topic, even if only for a particular aspect of
the workplace communication of LGBT+ people in Slovakia to support the findings of this
qualitative research.
42
7
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44
8
Annex
8.1 List of Participants
Respondent
Age
1
26
2
43
3
28
4
22
5
44
6
32
7
26
Industry
Position
City
Gender
Identity
social
psychologist Bratislava
cisgender
services
female
education
university
Bratislava, cisgender
professor,
Kvetoslavov male
state academy
researcher,
language
school
manager and
teacher
law
lawyer in the Bratislava
cisgender
insolvency
male
administrator’
s office
entertainment outdoor
Ružomberok cisgender
activities
male
instructor
healthcare, head of
Košice,
cisgender
state service department at Bratislava
male
the ministry
of healthcare,
office director
at Slovak
Chamber of
nurses and
birth
assistants,
assistant at
Childrens
Cardio Center
education,
university
Bratislava
cisgender
accounting, research
male
consultancy assistant,
senior
account
management
insurance,
insurance
Prievidza
cisgender
entertainment agent,
male
voiceover
1
Sexual
orientation
pansexual
homosexual
homosexual
homosexual
homosexual
homosexual
homosexual
8
25
9
39
10
34
11
32
12
41
13
41
14
64
artist
state service, HR
Bratislava
church
personalist,
sacristian
IT
marketing
Bratislava
manager
marketing, assistant of Bratislava
web design, sales
customer
manager,
service, sales, marketing
nonmanager, call
government center
organizations operator
music,
singer, music Bratislava
showbusiness producer
computer
program and Bratislava
hardware and project
software
manager in
development
teams
computer
consumer
Bratislava,
hardware and demand
Vranov nad
software
supply
Topľou
advisor
science and Scientist /
Bratislava
research
researcher,
director of the
Church
Department at
the Ministry
of Culture,
director of the
Institute of
State-Church
Relations,
Secretary of
Matica
Slovenská1
8.2 Interview Protocol
• Have you or do you consider coming out at your workplace?
o If not, why?
o If yes, how often?
1
Slovak national scientific and cultural institution
2
cisgender
male
homosexual
cisgender
male
cisgender
male
homosexual
cisgender
male
cisgender
female
homosexual
cisgender
male
homosexual
cisgender
male
homosexual
demisexual
heterosexual,
ally
•
•
•
o If yes, has your communication with colleagues/clients changed? How?
Is your communication with heterosexual colleagues/clients any different to that with
allies/other LGBT+ people in the workplace?
How do you identify allies/non-supporters in your workplace?
o How do you recognize the person as an ally/non-supporter based on
communication?
Have you experienced any form of heterosexist or transphobic discrimination, threats
(e.g., forced outing, slurs, jokes, gossip, ostracism, transgender respondents: using
wrong pronouns, name, identity) in your workplace?
o How did you react and manage these situations?
o How did you respond?
o Have you taken any action (e.g. informed a supervisor)
o Has your communication in workplace changed afterwards?
8.3 Interview Transcripts
Respondent Nr. 1
I: So, the first question, have you or do you consider coming out at your workplace?
R: I have... uh... and I did come out a few years ago at my current workplace and it was very...
uhm... very much ok. My colleagues were absolutely fine with it, never questioned it or made
fun of it… they are psychologists, so... they... they understand and my clients… they are people
with various psychological diagnosis, and they come from very different places and some of
them were open and the other ones… their relationship kinda… it was complicated toward me
from the beginning from my coming out, but I explained all that they were curious about and
now it’s perfect. They’re ok.
I: Ok, so... so your communication...has it changed with your colleagues or clients after the
coming out, or…?
R: Well... uhm… my colleagues knew practically from the beginning since I began at this
workplace, my clients… it… it was a bit difficult; it required some preparation. Sorry, what was
the question again?
I: If your communication changed somehow after the coming out with your clients or your
colleagues.
R: My communication towards them didn’t and theirs towards me a bit. Some clients were a bit
hesitant, and they wondered what they can ask me, some of them have a bit offensive humor
and they were more aware of my opinions about that kind of humor after I came out. So, say...
3
so they were less open, less spontaneous, but it changed. I’ve been there for four and a half
years and quite a long time so they kind of got used to me.
I: Perfect. May I ask you how often do you have to come out at your workplace? Or was it just
a one-time thing?
R: It came with every new client so it might have been like twenty times maybe. Depends how
curious the person is about… about me or other workers in general, but most of the time we
need to get to know them, and they want to get to know us too. So, it just comes during the
conversation.
I: I see. Moving on, is your communication with… and I will be talking a lot about
communication here. When I… what I mean behind that is also non-verbal communication,
could be a thing of an appearance etc. So, is your communication with heterosexual colleagues
or clients different to that with other LGBT+ people or allies at your workplace?
R: Yeah, it is slightly different. I can see that their reactions sometimes to… mostly to my humor,
which is kinda queer, it… it’s… yeah, it’s like they don’t get it so much and I have to explain…
uhm. Yeah so, I think more about how my communication and my being can be perceived by
non-LGBT people and that is colleagues or clients.
I: I see. And now, talking about the allies that I’ve mentioned, how do you identify allies or
non-supporters at your workplace? Or can you… uhm… recognize them solely based on the
communication or are there some other signs that you can use while recognizing your allies?
R: Most of the time I get it from their reactions while coming out or even sooner. They… it’s
about how the people talk and act and what they like. Well, for example, if… if a person likes…
uhm… very masculine things, is competitive and comes a bit harsh, it… most of the time…
uhm… I find out that they might not be ok with LGBT stuff. They might be homophobic or just
uneducated.
I: Yeah, I see. I might have a hinge there but just for the information, just to specify for the
research, what do you mean by the “masculine things” when you mention that?
R: Competitive sports for example… uhm… heavy drinking [laughter] I, I don’t know, I might
be wrong about this but to me it just associates with… with strong or toxic masculinity. Yeah,
maybe working out and, that… dominance in general.
I: Ok, thank you, just to remind, there are no wrong answers here so just feel free to say
whatever comes to your mind or whatever you feel… uhm… in these situations. Uhm, okay, so,
4
have you experienced any form of heterosexist or transphobic discrimination or threats in your
workplace? These could range from… uhm… plain heteronormativity to things like forced
outing, slurs, jokes, gossip, ostracism etc.
R: Yeah, in terms of heteronormativity there have been some moments. I felt it quite strongly
from my colleagues, especially when they talked about family and childbearing and they…
mostly the older colleagues, they don’t mean anything bad by it, but they… they had questions
if I’m really planning to… to stay with my female partner, who is now my ex. I… I… might
have… or… yeah. Hmm… I talked about them a lot about my… my ex because that relationship
was very problematic, so I needed to vent, and they were like: “But is it real? Do you really feel
it?” Yeah, I did but they… they… I don’t feel like they believed me. Uhm... so, that was it and
the other colleagues who are more close to me... hmm and they’ve been also my… uhm…
classmates at the university, they, sometimes they tend to have homophobic jokes. It’s… it’s
between them, but… yeah, it’s very uncomfortable when I hear it. I tell them always that it’s
not ok for me and I don’t think they should continue with this kind of humor and yeah, stuff
like that.
I: If you say “it’s between them” you mean that you’ve overheard the jokes so it’s not directly
with you
R: Yes.
I: Ah, ok. Were these jokes any personal? Maybe concerning you specifically or is it talking
about queer people for example in general?
R: Uhm, they were about queer people, and they were meant to, uhm, not hurt but… make…
make fun of the other colleague. They are both men these people.
I: Ah, so there… there is another colleague that is a part of the LGBT, and they were targeting
him with the jokes, or?
R: No, he isn’t LGBT, or he never did come out, so he might be. I don’t know but I don’t think
so, but he… he likes certain things that are considered more feminine in our society, and they
were the target of the jokes.
I: How do you mean “feminine things” if I may ask you?
R: Uhm, he likes art for example and drama, acting, so pretty much that.
I: I see, and you have also mentioned in the beginning that you heard before your coming out
some jokes also from your clients?
5
R: Yes
I: Ok, so… so just how did you respond or how did you react to these forms of… talking about
jokes from clients, from your colleagues and also to the heteronormativity… how did you
respond to the situations, how did you manage them?
R: Most of the time I respond by explaining why it might be hurtful to… to some people or how
I feel about it and how other queer people could feel about it if they heard it and I talk about
how it enforces the stereotypes and prejudices and stuff.
I: Did your communication with the clients or with the colleagues change after these situations?
R: A bit. Uhm, I was quite angry at first with my colleagues because I don’t think a psychologist
should have this type of humor, even if it’s considered fun and they… they say they don’t really
mean it. It’s already been said, and people hear it, they react, so I think they should be more
aware of their surroundings and reflect all those words. So, for about a week I… I didn’t really
want to talk to my colleagues. It was… it was a strange atmosphere at work, and we resolved
it… yeah after a week or so when one of them came to me and said he noticed what’s happening
and said he’s sorry. He basically apologized.
I: That is pretty nice, yeah. Uhm, ok, so that would be everything from my side, if you have
something to add, feel free, if you want to ask something, also feel free to ask and… yeah.
R: Ok, I don’t know, maybe this thing will be interesting to you, maybe it won’t, we’ll see, but
you might like to know that now I’m in a relationship with a man naturally I… I talk about it at
work. And I’ve noticed that some of my clients look at me differently. They’re… I think some
of them, mostly older women are happy about it. They… they… they wish for… for a family
to me or something like that so… so they were very curious about my partner. I… I told them.
I: Did they also question your sexuality now that you have a male partner?
R: Hmm… I don’t know, I don’t think so. Uhm, they never say it or did anything that would
convince me about this so I can’t say, I don’t know. Maybe they do, just not openly with me.
I: Yeah, ok, so… yeah, if that’s all from your side as well then thank you very much and if you
have some other questions after this then you can write me or anything and I will surely send
you the document that I’ve promised you. So, I can stop recording.
Respondent Nr. 2
6
I: Ok, so we’re going on to the first question. Have you or did you consider coming out at your
workplace in Slovakia?
R: I did. I was out, so everybody knew at all of my workplaces and also, they knew about my
husband because of the publicity we had before with Inakosť2 and other news media. So, they
knew me, and they knew him as well and some videos as well, so yeah. And there was no
problem with it at all, so that’s cool and not even at my workplace, uhm, in a village and nobody
from the village had any issues or at least openly. We didn’t hear any… anything. We didn’t
even… we didn’t experience any problems from the day-to-day life at all.
I: That’s great, so… uhm... that means when talking just about the workplace maybe you had
been out for the whole time you had been at each of your workplaces?
R: Yes.
I: Ah, ok. So, next question being, is your communication, or let’s say, was your communication
with heterosexual colleagues or clients any different with maybe let’s say allies or other LGBT+
people in the workplace?
R: Not necessarily. Well, there were always people who for example, who you didn’t “click
with” but “click” meaning, I don’t know, you just felt there’s not going to be a friendship or
more than just a professional relationship, but it’s not to say that they… because they were
heterosexuals or not. And reason why we were out, that was the point of civils that was decided
a while ago. Basically, for the reason if somebody doesn’t want to be my friend because I’m a
homosexual then do it, I don’t care. Being out it sorts out the people who want to be friends
with you and the time matters with those who didn’t, I don’t care at all.
I: Ok, thank you, uhm… Next question is kinda connected to the previous one. How do you
identify allies or non-supporters at your workplace? Or can you identify or recognize let’s say,
allies or the other side, the negative one: non-supporters based on the communication?
R: I think I have a very good gaydar, so in terms of LGBT people, I spot those. At least, the
males. It’s… it’s more difficult with the lesbians but that’s… that’s usually why gaydar works
always by the person so far. Never had any issues with that but it’s otherwise in terms of… there
were a few people who were a bit hostile in communication, but it could have been because
they were more conservative but say… saying it’s their problem. I don’t force myself on them,
I don’t need to communicate with them and it’s…
2
Iniciatíva Inakosť: Nongovernmental organization promoting human rights of LGBT+ people in Slovakia
7
I: Sure… I just meant, the first time, the first part of the question, I mean allies not LGBT people
as you’ve said with the gaydar, but so-called supporters or the people who would support you
in the workplace, if you identify… Because the thing is, that… uhm… several studies have
been made when people identify allies based on maybe religion, geography: where they come
from, politics, gender for example, age, so maybe let’s say that older people could be more
conservative tend to be more conservative and that’s not that much promising or so.
R: No, no, no, there were allies and not-allies if… in every category really. Those who were
maybe flattered that they know somebody as I or my husband because we were out and I
understand not many people in Slovakia were out and those who were flattered they liked it and
openly supported LGBT stuff in circumstances where maybe more inclined to communicate
and went on and join us in Pride and stuff like that and I can’t say they… there was a category
of them in terms of the age, no.
I: Ok, thanks. Then let’s move on to the very last point and that is: have you experienced any
form of heterosexist discrimination or threats that could range from heteronormativity at the
workplace, through forced outings, slurs, jokes, gossip, ostracism, etc.?
R: Jokes obviously and sometimes there were some comments but I… there was nothing
necessary I held against those people because the situation in Slovakia is as it is, so sometimes
it’s their ignorance, sometimes it’s what they hear from the media and, unfortunately, people in
general when they… uhm… meet something which is unknown to them they don’t do… uhm…
research or I don’t know, preparation or they don’t read into the stuff, so maybe there were some
little hiccups but nothing which offended me or nothing which I was upset about and if it went
to that point that some people said, I don’t know “is he or is she…”, you know, from my point
of view, what does it matter? So, there are those, maybe underlining things but sometimes I
don’t care. Well, if it’s there, it’s there. I don’t know, missed… missed chance or
misunderstanding and sooner or later they will realize that it’s a… it’s a silly thing. If for
example, the example would be that a hetero… some of the heterosexual colleagues would like
to know: is he or is he not? Like I’m supposed to, not necessarily out but confirm if they’re
right or if they’re not. So, I didn’t play those games, what does it matter? So maybe that is, but
personally I was not faced with face-to-face discrimination. I think, well, I guess there was one
or two people who were hostile because of that but c’est la vie.
I: Hostile you mean the jokes, right?
8
R: Jokes or just didn’t necessary want to talk to me more than, uhm, was necessary from the
point of the other colleague but I didn’t care about them. It’s busy enough with work and busy
enough with other people and friends, that’s it. I didn’t fight, sorry, yeah… yeah, I didn’t make
a deal out of anything, really, or didn’t fight or wasn’t really upset because I think that it’s not
working.
I: So… so yeah, that also answers my next question, that means how did you react or manage
these situations, how did you respond, so… so you basically ignored these…
R: Ignored or laugh at their faces. That’s… that’s another thing and that’s it. Didn’t get into
communication or… hmm… I don’t know, argument at all. Laughed or walked away. I would
turn away, around and did something else.
I: Now are we talking about the… your colleagues or also your clients or students or I don’t
know…
R: This is mostly colleagues, yeah.
I: And you didn’t really need to uhm… take any action, for example inform a supervisor or
something like that.
R: No, no, no. The students knew I was out, I also knew some students who were conservative
and during the school classes, some of the classes, for example I had to discuss on the
philosophical and religious stuff and stuff like that and let them be conservative. That’s it,
that’s… my job wasn’t there to… uhm… persuade them. I could educate them and offer them
points of view and examples, but I was not forcing any “agenda” if you like, and they
understood that. That’s how it is. And in terms of the student being from different regions in
Slovakia, yes, they… they… there maybe was that part that because they were from north and
east they were maybe more religious, but at the same time, there were people from that regions
that were very liberal, they had issues with their parents. Just for a reason of having for example
black friends or LGBT friends. Some of their parents wouldn’t like that, so some those students
they not necessarily enjoyed visiting back home or they stayed in Bratislava more often or…
or didn’t necessarily turn after they finished their studies to those small villages where it was
more conservative. That much I know.
I: So… so uhm, are you saying that maybe the students that were from northern Slovakia, that
were from eastern Slovakia, that were from religious families, they might have negative attitude
to the… uhm… to the LGBT people or the sexuality?
9
R: There was… I was while… while I was teaching, I was running some surveys with students
and because I have first-year students I was always running a survey with them and then get
some interviews with them as well apart of the survey. Mostly it was about what would they
want to study, where did they see themselves in a couple of years and stuff like that. A part of
that was also the sexuality and LGBT stuff and at the interviews some of them would say what
I’ve just said and that they are really not feeling very well in regions where they are because
there the people are conservative. Then, there were people who were from that regions and…
and they were conservative, but there were also people from Bratislava who went to religious
schools and they were conservative as well, but we never had any issues, or they were never
preaching to me. There was an Afghani guy who was Muslim, and he didn’t have any issue and
he was strongly Muslim, and he was expressing his faith, so there was never a clash. So, I let
them be who they are and in terms of the discussion, there was always a discussion on the topic
or something which we had to discuss in terms of an education.
I: Sure, I mean that’s… that’s as much as we can do I guess: to provide information and
experience to these people, right?
R: Yeah, I… I always have to stay professional and that’s my policy, always.
I: Uhm, maybe has your communication, uhm, be it in workplace, school or… at the
research…uhm, institution changed after these incidents or after the jokes with the colleagues
or…?
R: No, no, no, and these jokes were never… how do you say… these jokes were never targeting
me or something. These were jokes like any other jokes which I overheard. But it’s not only
Slovakia, these jokes you hear in New Zealand sometimes as well. At the university in New
Zealand too, so… because there is some macho culture. In terms of where are we, it’s not
necessarily typical for Slovakia. And at the same time, I believe in free speech, so whatever
jokes there are, they should be. I can say though, that for example since New Zealand made
the… uhm, legalized the marriage, having the political statement out there, for example jokes
or these kind of… you know maybe just funny… funny words in background, I think, in society
diminished. So having the political action and having the political statement out there about that
kinda educates people as well.
I: You mean, just based on societal level or… or is it through rules and then… that are then
incorporated in organizations and… I mean is it… it should all change, or?
10
R: Both, both.
I: Ah ok.
R: Both, so I think in terms of the… uhm… in New Zealand, in terms of the political change
there was a debate, so much of the stuff was debated and prior to the same-sex marriage act in
2014 they also had same-sex partnerships for more than 20 years. So that wasn’t brand new, but
when the debate came before the law was passed it kind of made people to understand that it’s
not a big issue and people can have partnerships anyway and that was our case as well back in
2003 that I gained my citizenship… sorry, my permanent residency first because I was a partner.
So it wasn’t that new, but then, having this confirm and having that law, people understood that
that’s ok, there out there, and it didn’t break the institution of the marriage or the catholic church.
That was in New Zealand. So, both, society was changing slowly, and the political statement
helped to increase or speed up this process.
I: Would you say the same thing would be… would be helpful in Slovakia maybe? That it would
be… that it could be the same thing, it could be the same change, the whole process could be
similar in Slovakia?
R: Yeah, I think it’s… it’s the same in any country. If you look there is a very good documentary
about… about Ireland, which is a catholic country, about the campaign and everything. But
Slovakia at the moment doesn’t even have a communication or discussion. If, quite an opposite
one, there is a campaign against so, the process can start and can be there but today there’s no
policy in view.
I: Also, when we would look at our neighbors, I mean Poland and Hungary, the situation is not
any better in these countries sometimes and… But… but as you said, Ireland, and then we have
Spain that is pretty religious and catholic country as well, were the second in Europe that
legalized the marriage back in 200…3 or something.
R: Yeah, you have Ecuador in Latin America, you have other catholic country so it’s about the
political will, so I think if there was a political will and a… and a discussion on the political
value in the Slovak parliament, that could be a trickle down… it could have a trickle down, I
think on the society, but I think Slovak society is more complex because it’s not only the
parliament but, it has churches and those religious organizations which have profit out of it and
the… some of the political parties, so I don’t see this happening anytime soon. But I could be…
I could be wrong, and they could surprise us with the next elections, I don’t know.
11
I: Thank you very much, that are all questions from my side. If you want to add something, or
ask anything, then feel free to do so.
R: There was… there was a very interesting idea for example when quitting those two years
ago, because before we totally gave up in living in Slovakia because it was impossible, because
my husband didn’t have visa, so they didn’t extend his working visa and… boli tri odvolania
(translation: “there were three appeals”) so we had three appeals which were not successful, so
there was nothing else to do. We also decided to go through… uhm… Austria because they just
passed the law a year before when we started the process, but… so that would be… uhm…
option for us to reside in Austria, work in Slovakia, but the process was too lengthy, so we ran
out of time and then the Covid came, so it didn’t happen. But that idea came from… uhm… the
Slovak ambassador to Taiwan, because I was… I received my scholarship when I was working
at the Comenius University and I went to Taiwan to do presentations and try do connection
between the universities, part of which was, that I met the guy and he had this quite a good idea
and scholars… uhm, were at the same idea as well and it’s not necessarily now, that the LGBT
community should maybe fight or try everything, because, frankly, I think they tried now
everything and more you push maybe the bigger the backlash will be. That was his opinion
there, and you can see that the backlash may be coming as well because the activist or people
get sick of it or tired of it. But it should be the heterosexual community which should maybe…
uhm… do some really, some concrete steps in terms of the communication or propaganda, the
positive propaganda in the media to support the LGBT, not the LGBT itself. Otherwise, they’re
risking a good backlash and I didn’t understand this when he told me that back at that time. And
he was also the one suggesting to go through Vienna, but then, later on, when you were looking
at the social movements and all this stuff… Even though, for example, in America, even the
marriage equality act and then the withdraw and all that stuff, you were already seeing some
backlash and in Slovakia, even though you didn’t reach as much, the backlash was common
because of the populist parties. So maybe, this type of effort from the LGBT should maybe be,
I don’t know postponed a little bit or they should be joined really by the heterosexual
community if there is such. Or tactics should be on those lines, which… which hasn’t been
done, so which would mean that, for example the political parties which have maybe no
affiliation with LGBT at all would just have it as a part of their agenda. Though the PS SPOLU3
3
PS SPOLU: former coalition of two non-parliamentary political parties Progressive Slovakia and SPOLU
12
only would do some more thing on… on the… on this front in terms of the marriage recognition,
stuff like that. So, this tactic hasn’t been tried out, I think. And that’s it.
I: That could be an option, yeah. I’m also…
R: Aha, one, one, one more thing. Surprisingly, like, even though the populist parties and all
that anti-LGBT propaganda was increasing in Slovakia, we never ever been at those times in
any issues in a day-to-day life in a small village of 1000 people, maybe now 1500. So, I think
that Slovak society, especially the youth or younger generation are ready and if they did surveys
with just younger generation in terms of the marriage equality, would be maybe 70% for yes,
but it equal… equalizes different people when you get to the whole population.
I: Well, the main thing about, I would… from my point of view, the main thing is that the people
are educated enough on this issue and have some experience with… with us as LGBT people
as well…
R: Yeah.
I: That’d help and also for that, thank you very much for the example that you, the example that
you set with your… with your husband and decided to…
R: No problem, there… there are people we know of who had children even, in smaller places,
in Púchov or stuff like that, and there are same-sex couples, and they have children, so people
don’t care that much of… they are wishing you well. It’s just as long as there is a political
capital which can be… uhm, gained out of it to get into parliament because you have a rightwing party, then that’s gonna be a case. But I maybe… maybe there is a little miscalculation,
that is, if to think that let’s say, a 4% of people are LGBT but exact numbers are maybe 10 or
12, that would give you even two parties. So, they may be using the “pink voter” or whatever
it is, really. There could be a party who is running just on that. And lastly, what was… hmm…
don’t know, I forgot. I think this… aha… sadly, wha… what was said about my surveys with
students who then identified or came out during the interview or were openly discussing it,
unfortunately, almost all of them want to leave Slovakia as soon as they graduate so that’s not
a very good prospect.
I: Yes. And also, one question came up in my mind. When you were talking about the… the
difference between… and… and working in Kvetoslavov and Bratislava, when we’re going
back and the… the communication… and I’m interested in the communication, that two places,
13
the school you had in Kvetoslavov and then Comenius University or the…uhm SAV4, was there
any difference? Maybe the jokes were more in the… in the capital city? Or was it more or less
equal, in this village and the city?
R: No, ah… Well, there was a difference in SAV and Comenius. There I maybe… I might have
overheard jokes or… those are the things, you know when this “je alebo nie je” (translation:
“are they or are they not”),”is he or is she not”, but that’s maximum. And… and it depends.
Because those people are supposed to be educated, it just depends on… on the people, whether
they are mean or whether they can be… want to be nasty. But they also, I think, understood
very quickly that it doesn’t matter to me as… at all, so it didn’t land well for them. In Slovakia,
because we were teaching children, so we did never say to the director that we are a couple or
anything, but it was kind of understood and then when we were leaving because we… we had
those articles in the media or something, even the parents knew. And quite the opposite
happened when we were leaving, they were all expressing how sorry they are that we have to
leave and how shameful they feel about the laws in Slovakia. So, though we were never
discussed, it was like an openly kept secret and everybody was kind of our fan. And then when
articles were published, what I experienced three times in a… on a train when I was commuting,
some people just stopped me and they were just saying… just saying: “Good, good, well, good,
good stuff, well done and good on you that you did it” and they hoped that more other people
would do what they did. So, it was only congratulation, never any open hostility. That’s why I
think the society is very… if there was maybe a positive communication or a campaign, the real
communication or the real debate. I mean, I was using the word communication, but what I
mean is the debate, debating, yeah? The debate is needed. And that’s the thing which I was
doing at the university always: debate stuff, so you offer all the opinions and students see and
then they can debate and whatever their conclusion is, it’s up to them. There are individuals,
who are way through education system, and they change their mind and many of them did, that
was fine.
I: I can only completely agree. Okay, so… I mean, thank you very much, it was great… ahh
honor to me to be able to speak with you and yeah, thank you much.
4
SAV: Slovak Academy of Sciences
14
R: Thank you for reaching out, if you have any other questions or if you think of them, then
come up later, just click me an email and we can have another, we can have another quick
session, I can answer those as well.
Respondent Nr. 3
I: Tak, prvá otázka, mali ste, alebo zvažovali ste coming out vo vašom pracovisku?
R: Uhm, mal som čiastočný a nezvažoval som celkový keď som teda pracoval na Slovensku,
bavíme sa stále asi iba o tej slovenskej časti. Ten čiastočný so mal viac menej ale, nepovedal
by som že z donútenia ale z takej tej situácie že už som nejak... nejak nepociťoval... nemal som
pocit, že tajiť to pred niektorými ľuďmi z tej práce je, ako keby dôležité. Takže... uhm... tak. Ja
sa dám ešte asi nabiť.
I: V pohode, pohode.
R: Neviem do akého konkrétneho detailu je potrebné v tomto smere hovoriť, že či chcete nejaké
konkrétne... uhm... skúsenosti s jednotlivými osobami v rámci toho čiastočného coming outu
alebo čo konkrétne vy... pre vás bude potrebné.
I: Uhm, zaujíma ma pokiaľ máte nejaké konkrétne situácie, čo sa týka toho coming out-u. Ide
hlavne o tú komunikáciu či už s kolegami alebo s klientami. Skôr keď mi viete upresniť čo bol
presne pre vás ten čiastočný coming out, čo pod tým mienite.
R: Jasné, to bolo vyslovene tak, že teda vedeli o tom iba niektorí členovia na pracovisku a moji
kolegovia, s tým, že vlastne ja po škole... uhm... keď som vyštudoval právo, tak som pracoval
na ministerstve vnútra. Tam som mal jedného... uhm, spolužiaka, ktorému som to vlastne ešte
predtým, než som nastúpil do práce, kde on pracoval ako kolega, tak som mu... uhm, vlastne
jedno leto cez víkend sa zdôveril s týmto, pretože bol jedným z tých mojich bližších kamarátov.
No ak keďže sme potom následne pracovali tak vše... všetko bolo v pohode. On teda prijal ako,
samozrejme, okej, nemal s tým žiaden problém ani na pracovisku. Rešpektoval to, že som teda
nechcel zdôverovať sa s tým nikomu inému, takže to on dodržal. Potom som mal ešte vlastne
jednu kolegyňu a jedného kolegu v rámci toho istého pracoviska, všetci sme boli taký ako keby
kolektív a to potom si už teraz presne nevybavujem, ale nedošlo k nejakej, žiadnej nejakej zlej
situácii, alebo niečomu, ale jednoducho rozhodol som sa, že sa s tým, ako keby, priznám aj
ďalším dvom kolegom. Postupne, nie naraz. Obidvaja to zobrali úplne v pohode, dokonca jeden
kolega si ma zavolal k sebe s tým, že ak on mal niekedy... ak som mal niekedy pocit, že on mi
15
niečo také naznačil, alebo povedal, čo by malo pre mňa pocit, že... uhm... ako vzbudiť vo mne
ten pocit, že ma nemá rád, alebo že... tak aby som to vôbec nebral vážne, že keď niečo sa aj
také stalo, tak... je to úplne irelevantné, pretože on to... úplne s tým je v pohode a nemám s tým
problém. S tým, že to bolo v rámci takého mladého kolektívu, všetci to boli ľudia, čo mali
maximálne do 35. Čo sa týka vedenia, vedenie bolo staršie samozrejme a už aj tie... tá generácia,
ten rozdiel bol tam cítiť keď sa aj prišlo sem tam k nejakej takej bežnej komunikácii keď sme
viacerí kolegovci napríklad oslavovali sviatok niekoho z kolegov a bolo tam aj vedenie a zrazu
prišla nejaká téma a začalo sa to rozoberať. Tam bolo strašne cítiť fakt ten generačný rozdiel,
že niektoré kolegyne a aj vedenie, ktoré patrilo k vekovo rovnako starším osobám mali s tým
problém. Väčšinou sa používali fakt ako také oslovenia že... oslovenia, alebo označovania že je
to nechutné, je to... je to proti prírode a tak ďalej. Takže, akože s tým som sa proste bežne
stretával, preto to som ani nechcel, vôbec celkovo sa out-ovať v tej mojej bývalej práci, lebo
ako nemal som za potreby mať nejaký konflikt na pracovisku. Takže väčšinou, som sa zameral,
keď už, boli to tí mladší kolegovia, ktorí, prirodzene sú tá mladej generácia a to chápu úplne
inak.
I: Priamo s klientami, alebo tak ste nemuseli riešiť toto, hej?
R: Nie, nie, s klientami nie.
I: Hmm, čiže keby som sa spýtal ako často ste museli dávať ten coming out, tak to bolo skôr že
jednorázovka, hej?
R: Jednorázovka, no.
I: Jasné...uhm, keď ste spomínali inak to, ako reagoval ten... ten váš kolega, že ak by niekto...
bolo niečo, čo je vám nepríjemné a tak, nech sa ozvete... Ako sa, možno aj s ostatnými... alebo
tak celkovo, ako sa možno aj s ostatnými, alebo s týmto, zmenila, ak vôbec, vaša komunikácia
na pracovisku po tom coming oute.
R: Vieš čo, som... teda pardón, viete čo, v smere...
I: Prepáčte, kľudne mi tykajte
R: [smiech] tak ešte, ono... uhm... myslím si, že v smere vo vzťahu k nim vôbec. Nijak inak sa
nezmenila. Nemal som žiaden pocit že by... že by došlo k akejkoľvek zmene, aj v tej
komunikácii, ani k zmene v spolupráci... spolupráca, práca a tak ďalej, vôbec. Proste bral som
to, že aha, he fajn, som rád, že to tak berie ako to berie a ideme ďalej, ako vôbec som sa nad
tým nejak extra ne... nepozastavoval.
16
I: Jasné, čiže rovnako uvoľnený a takto všetko...
R: Jo jo
I: Super. Uhm, potom mali ste... teda spomínate, že ste mali tam tých tzv. allies, respektíve
spojencov a mali ste aj nejakých LGBT kolegov ďalších, alebo?
R: Priamo na tom pracovisku som... uhm... nemal na tom svojom, ale v rámci budovy, tým že
ministerstvo ako... tam nás bolo veľa, tak tam som mal nejakých tých kolegovcov, tiež gejov.
V podstate to sme sa nejak tak náhodne ako cez Grindr 5 ... dajme tomu že vidím že ah, je
v blízkosti taký nejaký, tak tam nejak prebehla tá komunikácia. Tak sme potom ako taká partia
chodievali ráno na raňajky do jedálne a tak ďalej. Proste taký malý gay klub. Takže... uhm, mal
som na... nie priamo na pracovisku, ale v rámci práce dvoch... uhm... myslím že troch kolegov...
uhm, až troch kolegov, s ktorými sme sa skamarátili a fungovali ako kamoši.
I: Hej, uhm, tá komunikácia, ktorú ste mali s nimi, možno to, ako ste sa vy s nimi bavili a tak
ďalej, bola iná než tá, ktorú ste mali s heterosexuálnymi kolegami?
R: Tak určite, ako už len predsa len, s nimi sa vedia rozoberať úplne iné... iné roviny, veci než...
než s heterákmi. S tým že samozrejme, na jednu stranu som rešpektoval to, že tí moji kamoši
ako nemajú... nemajú potrebu počúvať napríklad o nejakých mojich týchto osobných veciach
v sexuálnom živote, alebo niečo také... uhm... nič, dajme tomu špecifickejšie než... než sú
nejaké také všeobecné... všeobecné veci. S tou... s tou gay partiou, tak to bolo iné samozrejme.
Tak tam sme väčšinou ako hodnotili aj kolegov, ako sa nám páčia a tak ďalej, proste vieš ako.
I: Hej hej.
R: Bolo to ale určite odlišné od tej komunikácie, ktorú som viedol smerom k heterákom.
I: Čisto v tom, že ste sa o súkromnejších veciach mohli baviť.
R: Áno.
I: Jasné. A to, že niektoré veci už nemôžete, respektíve, že niektoré veci už nebolo vhodné
preberať s tými heterosexuálnymi kolegami, oni to dali aj nejako najavo, alebo to ste vy si len
predpokladali, že aha, tu je hranica nejaká, že za ktorú by som nemal už ísť?
R: Myslím, že to najavo nedali, ale skôr bola... môj taký predpoklad, že, ako by som to povedal,
to je teraz skôr taká myšlienka, nahlas rozmýšľam, ale v tom zmysle, že som rád, že ma
akceptujú takého ako som a nechcem im sprotiviť nejaký pohľad na gayov kvôli tomu, že by
mali zo mňa... zo mňa samotného zlú skúsenosť, že počujú napríklad o veciach, ktoré sú im
5
Grindr: mobile dating application for gay men
17
napríklad nepríjemné. Alebo celkovo, hej? Že jednoducho, práve, snažil som sa dať sa do takého
postavenia, že chcem byť tým, ako keby príkladom lepší, že nech vidia, že som ako oni, že som
proste normálny človek, s tým, že aby som im nespôsoboval nepríjemnosti, ktoré samozrejme
ani mne by neboli príjemné keby niekto niečo mne hovoril, čo mne nerobí dobre, alebo dajme
tomu, nechcem o tom počúvať.
I: Jasné, jasné. Predtým, než inak pôjdem na ďalšiu otázku, uhm, ja niektoré veci možno
vyzerajú že strašne jednoduché, alebo primitívne sa pýtam, ale tiež už viem niečo, čo mi
odpoviete, ale čisto pre záznam nejako, alebo preto, aby som to... mohol niekde odcitovať sa
vás možno pýtam až viac detailov takto.
R: Kľudne, taktiež ako tykať si môžeme predpokladám.
I: Tak ja som Robo teda.
R: Ja som Ďoďo, teší ma.
I: Uhm, okej, tak môžeme ísť na tretiu, vlastne otázku, a to je, že ako rozpoznávate... a to môže...
môžete to povedať aj teraz, v rámci vašej terajšej, vlastne práce allies, respektíve týchto
spojencov a potom na druhú stranu tých, ktorí by boli ten negatívny protipól, tí nie podporujúci
ľudia na pracovisku. Respektíve doplňujúcu otázku ešte dám, či to viete aj čisto na základe
komunikácie napríklad.
R: Uhm, ono moja otázka bude mať v podstate také, táto otázka bude mať asi dve roviny u mňa,
už len kvôli tomu, že tým, že ja teraz pracujem v Česku a v Česku vlastne nemám problém na
pracovisku sa od začiatku zdôveriť s touto vecou, tak tá skúsenosť je diametrálne odlišná. Uhm
keď beriem tú slovenskú časť, čo samozrejme je váš prím, tak tých ľudí som rozpoznal
predovšetkým uhm... nikdy som nešiel s tým von úplne hneď... uhm... väčšinou som prijímal
informácie ako človek vníma tieto veci a zhodnocoval som, že keď bude situácia tak im to
poviem. Ako nepotreboval som... nemal... nepovažoval som to za dôležité, ako že by som sa
vyslovene musel niekomu vy-out-ovať. To nie. Bolo to skôr o tom, že ak sa... nastane taká
príležitosť, že proste dôjde k tomu, dôjde k tej otázke, tak nebudem mať problém s tým, im to
povedať, ale musím dopredu vedieť, rozpoznať, že tí ľudia s tým problém nemajú.
A samozrejme, už len keď sa vrátim k tým, uhm, vedúcim dajme tomu, alebo tomu... tomu
riadeniu, tak tam som zistil, že tam proste je problém a v živote som ako nepredpokladal, že im
niečo také priznám, takže tak.
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I: Nepredpokladal si to preto, lebo mali hentie... tieto poznámky, ktoré si spomínal počas tej
akcie, alebo to už bolo preto napríklad, že majú nejaký vek, sú vieš, nejako politicky možno
konzervatívnejší, alebo nábožensky orientovaní? Či tam aj nejaké tieto demografické, alebo
psychografické faktory hrali nejakú úlohu, alebo či to bolo čisto základom toho, že sa nejako
vyjadrovali.
R: Áno. By som povedal, že v prvom rade určite hlavne kvôli tomu vyjadreniu, nemal by som
problém povedať aj starším osobám len z titulu toho, že sú starší a možno že tam hralo trochu
rolu samozrejme aj to autoritatívne postavenie vedúceho ako takého.
I: Hmm, čiže keby si mal tam predpokladať, že to bola nejaká hierarchia, ktorá bola viacej...
teda vyššia, respektíve že tam bolo direktívne...
R: Áno. Áno, jednoducho nikto nechce si znepriateliť toho... toho svojho nadriadeného a aj to
bola pre mňa určitá... určitý aspekt, ktorý som bral do úvahy.
I: Hej, hej. To sa aj vlastne hovorí v tých štúdiách, že čím je viacej... uhm, plochá tá... tá
hierarchia, tým ľahšie to je pri coming out-e a pri tej komunikácii. Uhm, okej a ďalšia vec, zažil
si niekedy nejaké formy, okrem týchto vyjadrení, ďalšie heterosexizmu, to môže byť... alebo
týchto hrozieb... respektíve, môže to byť hocičo od čistej heteronormativity po nanútený coming
out, nadávky, vtipy, ohováranie, ostrakizmus, a tak ďalej.
R: Ako, keď sú vtipy, ktoré sú myslené ako vtipy, tak ja sa im určite rád zasmejem a určite
vôbec to nevnímam nejak negatívne. Ja som pomerne ako, nie som nejaký citlivý človek na
tieto veci. Samozrejme ak to niekto vyslovene ako myslí, alebo cítiť z toho že je tam nejaká
zakorenená... ako nejaké nepriateľstvo, alebo nejaká averzia, tak už mi to dalo iný význam a už
som to samozrejme zvažoval znova... ako to... s tým človekom komunikáciu jednoducho kým
k nemu naviažem, respektíve do akej miery s tým človekom chcem ďalej komunikovať.
I: Hmm, čiže tam... tam... tam boli nejak len tie vtipy z toho čo som nejako vymenoval, alebo
z týchto vecí a tie vtipy boli buď všeobecnejšie, alebo boli na teba akurát mierené, hej?
R: Hmm, všeobecnejšie. Ako, väčšinou sa jednalo... teraz neviem, či som dobre pochopil tú
otázku, ale ako... bavíme sa o tom, keď aj... keď tu bola skupina ľudí, ktorí už vedeli o mne, že
som gay a urobia si vtipy, tak ako sa tomu zasmejem a vôbec v tom nevidím problém, pretože
hlavne keď som fungoval v Bratislave, tak ľudia, ktorí to o mne vedeli tak to boli moji kamoši,
ako...
I: Jasné.
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R: Takže takto, a pokiaľ to boli osoby, ktorým som sa nezdôveril, a keď mali takúto nejakú
poznámku, respektíve nejaký vtip, tak samozrejme, spozornel som a v úvodzovkách som si takú
poznámku do hlavy zapísal, že aha, tak budem dávať možno väčší bacha na to, ako... ako tento
človek vníma veci okolo, dajme tomu, homosexuality a zhodnotím, či ho budem považovať za
nejakého svojho kamoša, alebo jednoducho nemám potrebu sa s ním ďalej, ako, skamaracovať,
alebo niečo také, pretože viem, že evidentne by mal potom konflikt... by bol medzi nami nejaký
konflikt. Či už pracovný...
I: Jasné. Pardon, čiže môžeš povedať, že po tom... po tom vtipe, respektíve po takomto niečom
si sa snažil byť viacej ostražitejší pri tom človeku, hej?
R: Áno.
I: A potom, keď... keď na toto nadviažem, tak čo sa týka aj tých vyjadrení od toho vedenia,
zmenila sa nejako tvoja komunikácia s nimi? Respektíve po nejakých takýchto incidentoch
rôznych, zmenila sa tvoja komunikácia s tými ľuďmi, teda na pracovisku takto?
R: Ah, rozmýšľam... Akože priamo mám skúsenosť napríklad... uhm... s tým, že buď tá staršia
moja kolegyňa, alebo potom to staršie vedenie malo vyslovene nejaké takéto poznámky, tak...
mal som k nim, by som povedal... pardon, telefón mi tu zvoní, tak musím to vypnúť... tak mal
som k nim už takú menšiu averziu, respektíve som povedal... vydržte, vydrž prosím... Dobre,
uhm... kde som to bol?
I: Že ste mali averziu... že si mal averziu teda...
R: Áno, že som mal takú... začínal som mať takú, samozrejme, nejak pocit že s tým človekom
nechcem nejak ďalej rozoberať... proste tieto veci a ako priamo to neovplyvnilo, myslím že,
moju spoluprácu po pracovnej stránke, ale určite po tej osobnej do nejakej miery áno.
I: Hmm, jasné. Čiže si bol možno odtiahnutejší, držal si si odstup...?
R: Áno, tak možno som vážil viac slová, že... že čo človeku poviem, alebo už to len stačilo
pri tej osobnej komunikácii, dajme tomu, čo som robil cez víkend. Namiesto toho, aby som
povedal, že som bol s priateľom, dajme tomu niekde, alebo teda, že som bol s niekým vonku,
tak som povedal, že som sa nudil doma, alebo niečo na ten štýl.
I: Hej, jasné, okej. Tak čo sa týka otázok tak to bolo v podstate všetko. Ak by si mal ešte niečo,
čo by si chcel k tomu nejako dodať, alebo sa prípadne spýtať, tak kľudne, nech sa páči.
R: Uhm, dodať, tým že... to znamená, že to Slovensko, tak asi v tej časti nie, ale môžem len
povedať, že ten vzťah na pracovisku teraz v Českej Republike je fakt neskutočne odlišný. Je
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omnoho príjemnejší, nemal som vôbec s tým sa priznať hneď prvý deň kolegovi, ktorý sa ma
pýtal, že čo vlastne robí tu v Česku Slovák a tak ďalej. Tak, no, som proste povedal a okej, okej
všetko v pohode, ako skutočne, aktuálne nemám ani jednu zlú skúsenosť nepríjemnú, či už
osobnú, alebo pracovnú odkedy pracujem v Česku.
I: Hmm, super. A keď si povedal, keď sa ťa pýtal, že prečo ako Slovák si tam prišiel, tak bolo
vlastne... aj s tým to súviselo, že kvôli právam, kvôli spoločnosti, a tak ďalej si sa odsťahoval,
hej?
R: No, to bolo hlavne kvôli tomu, že ako slovenský právnik v Česku je už samo o sebe trošku
blbé, kvôli tomu, že človek študuje to slovenské právo, ktoré je v Česku úplne iné a to bola, by
som povedal taká... taký predpoklad k tej otázke, ktorú položil, že „a čo tu teda Slovák, právnik
vyštudovaný robí v Česku“, hej? Kvôli čomu? Takže to skôr tak smerovalo, ale ja som povedal,
že som sa prisťahoval za priateľom, pretože, jednoducho sme fungovali Ostrava- Bratislava
a tak som sa konečne prisťahoval, že jednoducho boli také vhodné podmienky, že sa
prisťahujem.
I: Jasné.
R: Ale akože že by to bolo vyslovene v súvislosti s tým, že by som sa nejak cítil zle na tom
Slovensku, alebo nejak ohrozene alebo niečo, tak to nie, to... to nemôžem povedať, ale teraz tu
v Česku sa cítim ako keby... nie že bezpečnejšie... To nie, podľa mňa nie je vhodné slovo, ale
viac otvorenejšie, viac svojsky. Takže asi tak.
I: Hej, super. Tak, ďakujem veľmi pekne teda, ešte raz, že si si našiel čas a energiu na toto.
R: Ja ďakujem, keby niečo, tak kľudne daj vedieť a určite, keď môžem, tak keď pôjde von
nejaký ten... nejaký ten článok alebo niečo, tak určite budem rád za link.
I: Jasné, jasné, kľudne ti potom pošlem ak sa to podarí všetko, len to je dosť dopredu, ešte
potrebujem dopracovať teóriu, teoretickú časť a tak.
R: Tak dovtedy prajem veľa úspechu!
I: Jasné, nápodobne. Pekný deň ešte.
R: Čau, čau.
Respondent Nr. 3 (partial translation)
I: So, the first question, had you, or did you consider coming out at your workplace?
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R: Uhm, I did partially and didn’t consider a total one, while I was working in Slovakia, we are
still probably talking only about the Slovak part. I had the partial one, more or less, but
I wouldn’t say that out of being forced to it, but from such situation that I already did somehow...
somehow didn’t feel... I didn’t have the feeling that hiding it from some people from my work
is important.
[...]
R: Sure, it was literally so, that only some members at the workplace and my colleagues knew
about it, considering that, actually after school I... uhm... when I had graduated law, I was
working at the ministry of interior. There I had one... uhm, schoolmate, to whom I had actually,
prior to start at work, where he worked as a colleague, so I... uhm, actually, one summer, during
the weekend I have confided with this, because he was one of my closer friends. Well, and
because afterwards we worked together, everything was all right. He accepted it, ok of course,
didn’t have any problem with it, not even at the workplace. He respected, that I didn’t want to
confide with it to anyone else, so he held on to that. After that, I actually had one more female
colleague and one male colleague at the same workplace, we all were such a good team and
after that, I don’t remember that exactly by now, but there was no, no bad situation or anything,
but I simply decided that I would, somehow, that I would confide with it to two other colleagues.
One after another, not at once. They both took it absolutely fine, one colleague even called me
to him to tell me that if, if he had had sometimes... if I’d ever had a feeling, if he indicated
something like that, or said that would have given me the feeling that... uhm... like make me
feel like he doesn’t like me or that... that I should not take it seriously at all, even if something
like that had ever happened, then... it is completely irrelevant, because he... he’s absolutely fine
with it and doesn’t have any problem with that. Considering that this was within such a young
team, all of them were people, who were 35 at most. Regarding the management, the
management was older, of course, and even the... the generation, the difference could have been
felt even if it came, time-to-time to some ordinary conversation when more of us, colleagues,
for example, celebrated a fete of some of our co-workers, and there was the management and
suddenly the topic came up and it began to be discussed. There was an intense feeling of the
generation gap. That some colleagues and the management, that also belonged to the similarly
older people, had an issue with that. Mostly, really the names were used... names or labelling
that it is disgusting, it is... it is against the nature and so on. So, actually, I had to face that
22
regularly, because of that, I didn’t even want to come out totally at that old job of mine, because,
like, I didn’t need to have any conflict at the workplace. So mostly, I focused on, because they
were, if, that were the younger colleagues, that are naturally the young generation, and they
understand it differently
I: You didn’t have to deal with this directly with the clients, or so, right?
R: No, no, with the clients not.
I: Hmm, so if I’d ask you how often did you have to come out, it was more of a one-time thing,
right?
R: One-time thing, yeah.
[...]
I: …how it changed maybe also with the others, or with this one, if at all, your workplace
communication after the coming out...
[...]
R: [laughter] so even, it... uhm... I think that in this way, in the relation to them not at all. It
didn’t change at all. I didn’t have any feeling that... it would come to any change, also in the
communication, neither in the coworking... coworking, work and so on, not at all. I just saw it
as, hey, I’m glad he takes it like he does and we go on, like I didn’t really... dwell on it.
I: Right, so equally relaxed and all...
R: Yeah, yeah.
[...]
R: Directly at the workplace I... uhm... didn’t have at mine, but within the building, because the
ministry... there was plenty of us, so there I had some of the colleagues, also gays. Basically,
we just somehow randomly, like through Grindr6... let’s say I see that ah, there is someone like
that near me, so there was some communication. So, then we went as a crew in the morning to
the breakfast in the dining room and so on. Just a little gay club. So... uhm, I had... not directly
at the workplace, but within the job two... uhm... I think three colleagues... uhm, three
colleagues even, with whom we would get together and functioned as friends.
I: Yeah, uhm, the communication you had with them, maybe the way you used to speak with
them and so on, was it different to the one you had with heterosexual colleagues?
6
Grindr: mobile dating application for gay men
23
R: For sure, after all, with them it is possible to discuss other... other dimensions, things than...
than with the heterosexuals. With that being said, of course, on one hand I respected, that these
friends of mine, like don’t have... don’t have the need to listen, for example, to some of my
private things in sexual life, or anything like that... uhm... anything, let’s say more specific than...
than some of the general... general issues. With that... with the gay crew, it was different, of
course. There we mostly used to evaluate the male colleagues, how we like them and so on, you
know how.
I: Yeah, yeah.
R: But it was for sure different from the communication I lead towards the heterosexuals.
I: Solely in, that you could have discuss more private things.
R: Yes.
I: Right. And the thing, that you can’t, respectively, that some issues weren’t appropriate to be
discussed with those heterosexual colleagues, did they somehow make this clear, or did you
just suppose that, yeah, here is some line, which I should not cross?
R: I don’t think they made this any clear, it was more of... my assumption, that, [...] in a sense,
that I’m glad, that they accept me as I am and I don’t want to corrupt their attitude towards gays,
because they would have... a bad experience with me, that they would hear about things they
find, for example, unpleasant. Or in general, right? That simply, I tried to bring myself into such
position, that I want to be the one... as if the better example, so that they can see that I’m just
like them, that I’m just a normal person, considering that not to be causing them any
unpleasantries, that, of course, even I wouldn’t find pleasant if somebody would be telling me
something that doesn’t do me any good, or let’s say, I don’t want to listen to that.
[...]
I: …how do you recognize... and that can... you can also say that now, regarding your current,
actually job, allies [...]
R: Uhm, well, my question would have in fact, this question would probably have two
dimensions for me, at least because now, that I work in Czech Republic, and in Czech Republic
I actually don’t have any workplace issue since the beginning, with confiding with this thing,
so the experience is diametrically different. Uhm, considering the Slovak part, which is, of
course, your prime, so I used to recognize these people in particular uhm... I have never come
out with that right away... uhm... I have been mostly receiving information about how the person
24
perceived these things and evaluating, that if there would be a situation, I would tell him. Like.
I didn’t need to… didn’t have… I didn’t find it important, like that I would particularly have to
come out to someone. Not that. It was more about, that if... there came such occasion, that if it
would just come to that, come to that question, I wouldn’t have any problem telling them, but
I would have to know upfront, recognize, that those people don’t have problem with that. And,
obviously, if I’d just go back to that, uhm, let’s say management, or that... that administration,
there I realized, that there is simply a problem and I didn’t suppose I would confide with
something like that ever in my life to them, so yeah.
I: You didn’t suppose that, because they had the... these comments that you’ve mentioned during
the event, or had it already been because, for example, they were of certain age, were, you know,
somehow maybe politically more conservative or religiously oriented? [...]
R: Yes. I would say, that for certain, mainly because of the comment, I wouldn’t have any
problem telling even to elderly people, just for the reason, that they are older and maybe the
authoritative position of the manager as such, obviously, also played a role.
I: Hmm, so if you’d have to suggest there, that it was some hierarchy, that was more... so, higher,
respectively that it was directive in there...
R: Yes. Yes, nobody simply wants to make enemies with that... their supervisor and also that
was for me certain... certain aspect, that I had taken into consideration.
[...]
R: Like, if there are jokes that are meant as jokes, I am surely glad to have a laugh and I don’t
find it any negative at all. I’m quite like, I’m not a sensitive person around these things. Of
course, if somebody particularly, like, means it or there is a sense of some rooted... like some
hostility, or some aversion, then it gives me another meaning and I’ve already obviously begun
to consider again... how it... with that person, simply until I would establish some
communication, or to what extent I want to communicate with that person at all.
I: Hmm, so there... there... there have only been some jokes from what I’ve somehow listed, or
out of these things, and the jokes were either more general, or targeted just at you, right?
R: Hmm, more general. Like, mostly it was about... now I’m not sure, if I’ve understood the
question well, but like... we’re talking about when even... when there was a group of people
that knew about me already, that I’m gay and were making jokes, like I have a laugh at it and
25
I don’t see any issues there at all, in particular when I was working in Bratislava, so the people
that knew about me were my friends, so...
I: Right.
R: So like this, and if that were people, to whom I hadn’t confided, and when they had some
comment like this, or a joke, then obviously, I would raise my attention and, in quotes, took
a notice in my head, that aha, there I should maybe pay more attention on how... how this person
perceives things around, let’s say, homosexuality and evaluate, if I’d consider them my friend,
or I would just not have any need to befriend him any further or anything, because obviously,
he would later have a conflict... there would be some conflict between us, either work-related...
I: Right. Sorry, can you tell me if after that... after that joke, or something similar you tried to
be more aware around that person, right?
R: Yes.
I: And afterwards, when... when I follow up on this, when it comes to the comments from the
management, had your communication with them changed? Or after these incidents, has your
communication changed with the people at the workplace?
R: Ah, I’m thinking...Like, I have directly the experience, for example... uhm... that even either
my older colleague, or then the elderly management particularly has these comments, so... [...]
So, I had towards them already some small aversion [...]
[...]
R: Yes, that I had such... I’d obviously begun to have some feeling that it can’t be analyzed with
that person any further... simply those things and it didn’t directly affect, I guess, my
cooperation from the work perspective, but from the personal one, to some extent, yes.
I: Hmm, right. So, you were maybe more distanced, you were keeping distance...?
R: Yes, maybe I was considering my words more, that... what I’d tell a person, or even that was
enough during the personal communication, let’s say, what had I been doing during a weekend.
Instead of saying, that I was with my boyfriend, or that I was out with someone, I’d say that
I was getting bored at home, or something on that matter.
[...]
R: Uhm, to add, considering... that means that Slovakia, maybe not for that part, but I can tell
that the relationship at the workplace now in Czech Republic is really incredibly different. It is
much more pleasant, I didn’t have any issue with confiding to a colleague the first day, when
26
he asked me what had a Slovak been doing here in Czech Republic and so on. So, well, I just
said and ok, ok, everything all right, currently I haven’t had a single bad, unpleasant experience,
albeit a personal one or a work-related one since I’ve been working in Czech Republic.
I: Hmm, great. And when you said, when he asked you, why did you come there as a Slovak, it
was actually... was it also connected to the rights, because of the society and so on, why you
moved out, right?
R: Well, it was mainly because as a Slovak lawyer in Czech Republic, it is a bit silly on itself,
because one studies the Slovak law, which is completely different here in the Czech Republic
and it was, I would say, kind of... kind of an assumption to that question he gave, that “so what
does a Slovak, a studied lawyer do here in Czech Republic“, right? What for? So, it was going
more that way, and I said, that I moved in to my boyfriend, because we had simply functioned
between Ostrava - Bratislava and so I had finally moved in, that simply there were such good
conditions, that I would move in.
I: Right.
R: But it wasn’t particularly because I would feel any bad or endangered or something, not that,
it... I can’t say that, but now here in Czech Republic, I feel such as... not safer... Not that, I don’t
think that’s the right word, but more open, more as myself.
[...]
Respondent Nr. 4
I: Ok, so the first question. Have you or did you consider coming out at your workplace?
R: Oh yeah, at my workplace, uhm... Ok so, as you previously... as you’ve previously said, that
we’re gonna reflect purely on the environment in Slovakia, or in general?
I: Mainly Slovakia, but if you want to compare it to Britain, then you’re welcome to do so.
R: Ok, ok… uhm… in Slovakia… at the time, when I was working in Slovakia, I didn’t consider
it, because I wasn’t clear about my… about my sexual orientation at that point. I was still
calculating with many different terms and I… uhm… knew that there was something going on,
really, but I was never really sure, I was never really sure, I was never really clear on… I don’t…
I think at the point I didn’t really have enough experience to even come out to my own family.
If I’m... if I’m… yeah, I’m correct. But if I compare it to Britain, which was… which was the
recent, probably, one… uhm… There was no need to come out, if I really have to be honest,
27
because the environment is just so open and nobody really cares about your sexual orientation,
unless you want to go… unless you want to build an intimate relationship with one of your coworkers. Nobody really cares because the whole company takes pride in… uhm, uhm… in
being diverse. I mean, so… uhm, so yeah, I was not really clear about my sexual orientation
back then, so I did not consider it.
I: That’s what I’m going for in this study as well and also, when I’m referring to the
communication, what I mean… what I mean is also verbal, non-verbal communication,
basically anything that comes up to your mind. So, the communication with your colleagues,
or your clients in your job in Britain doesn’t really change if you happen to come out or… even
though you said that you didn’t have to.
R: Uhm… There were people who actually asked me about my sexual orientation, but that was
just more about the integration into… because my colleagues, you know, after work, they…
they grabbed a drink and, of course, in those circles, you tend to talk about personal stuff, so,
of course, people ask you, but it was not one of… it was not something that I had to do, it was
not something… it was just so natural, you know? Uhm… so… uhm… so yeah, can you repeat
the question again? Cause there was something more that I wanted to say.
I: Uhm, sure. If your communication with your colleagues or clients changed somehow after
your coming out, or after they realized or recognized that you might be homosexual.
R: What do my communication…Ok, that is a very deep question… uhm… thought-provoking.
Uhm, probably not. Probably not really… it didn’t really change. I think… I think I’ve just…
I’ve just become more with myself and that changed my communication with others, but I
don’t… I don’t… I don’t really see my sexual orientation as a main determiner in… in terms…
in terms of my communication with others. Just be… me being more comfortable with myself,
regardless of the workplace or country where I worked.
I: Uhm, so that… that also answers the next question, that is, if your communication with
heterosexual colleagues or clients is or was any different to those… to that with other LGBT
people in the workplace or allies?
R: Well, as… uhm… in terms of your dissertation as you’re reflecting on the workplace in
Slovakia, I remember pretty vividly, that my… of course, my colleagues were… uhm… the
majority or probably everyone was straight at that point, so, uhm, when I’m thinking about it,
uhm… there were some moments when… uhm… I probably had to adjust my behavior slightly,
28
because I know that they were not as accepting. It was… it was… it was an environment which
requires physical work and most of my colleagues were actually those types of guys that work
out at the gym, and… uhm… there was a lot of toxic masculinity and I remember some
moments, when they pointed out that I had different acting and different kind of communication.
Maybe more empathetic, maybe… uhm… I was more bubbly, more… uhm… bubbly, yeah and
more communicative. Of course, not… not the stereotypical straight features, that they had. So,
I remember there were points, when I actually had to tune it down, really as… as a young… I
think I was in my teens at that point, so… uhm… Sorry, I’m kinda jumping between those
questions, because I’m just thinking too deeply about… about what I was going through at that
point.
I: Oh, actually, your… your answer is ah… pretty… pretty fitting in the complex, because
that… what you’re describing is called the sexual identity management, so… so yeah, you’re
having…
R: Great!
I: Okay.
R: Alright.
I: Then, moving on, how do you identify allies or non-supporters, let’s say, in your workplace?
And can you do that, maybe, based on the communication?
R: Hmm. Ok, I think, in this case, I would… I would split my answer into two… two points.
As… one being, in the UK… uhm… when… I think I didn’t really have to differentiate to…
I… it was hard to differentiate, because everybody was very empathetic, everybody was very
thoughtful and aware of how they communicated and, of course, they did not use very explicit
words, like… of course, like faggot and those kinds of words. They were aware that they might
be insulting and they… they were aware of the fact that any of their colleagues might be
offended by that without them knowing their sexual identity. Whereas in Slovakia, those words
are used more commonly without any further consequences, without environments or… let’s
say I would use that word, let’s say, maybe as a straight guy and in Slovakia I would not be
afraid of… of the public feedback, of instant feedback from my… from the community saying:
“Oh, it’s… it’s not… it’s not correct, what you’re saying” or “it’s… you should not say it”, you
know? “It’s… why would you say a thing like this”, whereas in the UK, there would be instant
feedback from all colleagues, from anyone pretty much, uhm… highlighting the fact that it
29
wasn’t correctly used or that I shouldn’t have used it, because it’s… So, uhm… So, I see those
differences between those two environments.
I: Sure, and… maybe this is just to target you to the answer that I want. Sure, the slurs are one
thing, uhm, the question being, if you can really recognize if somebody is going to be a
supporter or non-supporter here.
R: Oh yeah. Uhm, ok, so, uhm… so, if I have to sum it up, I think it would be… If I have to…
In Slovakia, recognizing if somebody supports or if somebody is at least knowledgeable about
issues regarding the LGBT community, they choose… uhm… their vocabular and their words
more… uhm… precisely and they are more aware of what they’re saying so probably it’s the
way how people communicate things and how inclusive they are in regards of what they’re
saying. So, I think that’s… that’s the main… that’s how I determine it, but… uhm… I don’t
know, that… I think… I think it’s just my gut feeling, but I think this is not what you’re looking
for in your response.
I: Sure, it kinda is, the thing is, that it could be based on the communication, this recognition,
but… uhm... in certain studies people were referring to certain demographic data, for example
age, I don’t know, region their colleagues were coming from, politics, religion, gender and
sexuality as some kind of a clue if this person could be an ally or not, based on their experience.
That might not be your experience precisely, but… but if it is for you just based on the
communication, it’s completely fine.
R: I think… I think in the environment in Slovakia I… uhm… unless the person follows like
those very stereotypical behavior patterns that we often associate with… with gays and
homos… homosexuals, I mean with queer people in general… uhm… I don’t think I actually
try to… try to identify if the pers… if their sexuality or if they’re supportive or not, because the
community is just so close-minded, that I rarely go into those topics, especially in… I mean I
live in central part, cent… central north… northern part in Slovakia, so these topics are just
very taboo, so I… honestly in Slovakia I rarely go into identifying people or… uhm…
identifying whether they are allies, or you know, supporters, non-supporters.
I: Sure. Uhm, you’ve already mentioned, that during your work experience in Slovakia you’ve
come across some jokes maybe, but… ah… have you experienced some other… uhm… form
of heterosexist or maybe even transphobic discrimination or threats? This could range from
heteronormativity to forced outings, slurs, jokes, gossip, ostracism, etc.
30
R: Only at workplace or in general in society?
I: Just in workplace.
R: Just in workplace. Uhm, I think it would just be... it would just be those… those jokes,
vocabulary that they used and probably just pointing out at the… pointing out the clothes that
I… that I wore or pointing out at the clothes that the people from the community wore, more…
uhm… highlighting the flamboyance element in somebody’s behavior, I think. That was… that
was the only thing.
I: So… so it was targeted both at you and at the queer people in general, right?
R: Yes, it was, of course, those jokes in general, but… uhm… I think I started at this point, I
wa… me as a person, I started the… I was the… what was the word… me being there started
the jokes and started the whole conversation about how gays might be flamboyant, about, oh,
you know, he’s gay, you know, he might be gay, you know, uhm… so yeah.
I: How did you maybe respond or manage these situations?
R: At the point I… I did not respond at all. I walked away, because at this point, I wasn’t clear
about my sexuality and I was not confident enough to actually step out and to… uhm… to stand
for what’s right and to stand for my own identity, because I wasn’t clear about that and the
environment and my family, the whole… uhm… my world in which I lived at that point was
just so close-minded, that it did not allow me to… to… uhm… to broaden my horizons and
to… to… to just step out and be more comfortable at the.. For me, the main… the main point
where everything started to break, and I started to reconciliate my… my own ideas was the…
that was the moment when I… when I left Slovakia and when I left for the United States. That
was right after this… this work experience, so it was the… it was just the experience from a
different country, from a different whole new world that changed my perspective, I… I wasn’t
just capable of… of defending myself.
I: Did your communication maybe change after these situations with the colleagues?
R: Hmm, I… I don’t see those moments as… as anything traumatic, as anything that determined
or anything that changed my behavior. It was me, it was the environment which I left, so I
change myself, I pushed myself out of Slovakia, so… And… uhm… my communication
changed after living in… in different countries, so no, I don’t… I don’t see those… I don’t see
those moments at the workplace as something that changed my communication. It was… it was
a process within me, rather than external.
31
I: Certain participants stated that the… the communication after these situations might get a bit
more distanced or colder after these incidents, so that’s what I’m asking.
R: Uhm, I was probably just more… more hesitant to show who I… who I were… who I was,
of course it kinda hindered the whole process of me just blossoming into, uhm… you know,
into my own personality, into embracing my own… uhm… characteristics as an individual. It
hindered this process, but… I… I think… I think I marginalized those… those comments. I did
not let them sink in. So, if I… I mean if I had stayed in Slovakia, of course that… uhm… it
would have affected me in a long-term run… in a long… in a long run, but… uhm… I really
marge… marginalized that. I think I communicate things very diplomatically and I rarely take
things personal. It’s so… It’s just my… That’s just my personal trait and I was already… in my
mindset I was living somewhere else, you know. I… those were just… uhm… those
comments… I think they didn’t affect me that much.
I: I see. Okay, thank you very much, uhm… that’s all from my side, maybe if you have
something to add or something to ask, then feel free to do so.
R: Hm. To ask… uhm… As your… as your… I mean how many people have you… how many
people have you interviewed so far?
I: Three so far.
R: Three so far, okay. Including myself?
I: Yeah, including yourself.
R: Okay, uhm, everyone knows, that…
I: Sorry four including yourself, three during the last few days, so yeah.
R: Okidos, uhm… have the rest of the people… have they… do they also have… uhm… the
experience of living somewhere else and did they mention that it changed them as a personality,
as an individual?
I: Great question. In fact, two of them are now living abroad, so… One in Czech Republic and
the other one in New Zealand, so… so they were able to compare the experiences.
R: Okay, hmm.
I: And it’s pretty similar and it’s also kind of, uhm… kinda focused on the difference and… the
fact is that the outcome of this field research, I’m going to compare I to the studies that were
done in US and Germany, etc. so just to see the comparison. Also, uhm, how does the, maybe
32
how the society influences the actual communication in the workplace and some practical
recommendation for colleagues and organizations.
R: If you also come across, have the rest of the respondents… do they have the experience of
maybe bullying or anything more serious, like sexual… like assaults, or… uhm… maybe
something even physically abusive when it comes to their gender… gender or sexual identity
in… in the Slovak workplace? Because I… I consider myself lucky enough not to have anything
like this, or just… I’ve just encountered some stupid jokes, but that… that’s just pretty much it,
I mean, but do they have something… do they have experiences, I don’t know, with something
more serious?
I: Sure, well… uhm… I expected more brutal experiences in this matter… uhm… if I… I’ve
spoken to several, uhm, gay people living out… uhm… all around Slovakia before the…
everything, every research and… uhm… I was expecting worse, however it… so far, fortunately,
have only been some slurs and jokes and maybe slight ostracism, little bit of gossip, but nothing
physical.
R: And, I mean, if it’s too personal what I’m gonna ask, it’s just fine, you can just stop me at
any point, but you’ve mentioned that you live in Slovakia and you are closer to Slovakia than I
am, I… we’re at the same age, but I left Slovakia when I was maybe like fo… since 2014, that’s
when I left for France, and the US and now I’m in the UK, so I have… I don’t have enough
experience at the workplace in Slovakia, real workplace, that’s just my… that’s the only
experience I have, but have you encountered yourself anything more serious than just jokes?
I: Yeah, I… I’m going to answer… uhm… can I just stop the recording right now, because…
R: Go for it.
Respondent Nr. 5
I: [...] Začnem asi takou očakávanou otázkou, uhm, mal si alebo zvažoval si coming out v práci?
R: Nikdy som to, uhm, na priamo nezvažoval. Ja som sa snažil viac menej stále chovať
prirodzene a nepopierať svoju orientáciu ale nemám, uhm, potrebu sa niekomu spovedať zo
svojho osobného životu... života, pretože to nepokladám ani u... ani u ostatných za potrebné
aby sa mne niekto spovedal, že či má ženu alebo či má okrem ženy aj milenca. Je to skôr také
prirodzené pre mňa. Ja som sa začal nejako chovať, ale v podstate, uhm, od... od detstva som
mal taký, hlavne keď som bol mladší, problém v zmysle už výberu môjho povolania, že som
33
bol stále škatuľkovaný do takej polohy. Na druhej strane, časom, keď som dospel som to sám
aj prial, pretože to nebolo len o profesii, ale to bolo od začiatku jasné, uhm, ako som orientovaný,
takže úplne v pohode. Ale čo sa týka práce, o mne v práci to vedia, ale úplne prirodzeným
spôsobom.
I: Prirodzeným znamená, že to nejako... ako to myslíš?
R: Ako ak hovoríme o vzťahoch, ak sa bavíme o súkromí, tak ja hovorím o svojom partnerovi
prirodzene, tak jak keby som hovoril, že s manželkou som bol niekde.
[...]
I: Uhm, čiže vlastne na to prišlo vždy v rámci komunikácie a... a ten coming out bol taký
prirodzený. Ako často sa asi tieto záležitosti stávali? Či to bola jednorázová vec, že si sa
rozprával a ostatní to zistili z tvojej komunikácie naraz, alebo to trvá... je nejaký proces, ktorý
musíš opakovať zrazu znova a znova a znova?
R: Uh, ak niekde začínaš... uh... tak kým ťa ľudia spoznajú, uhm, tak si samozrejme v tej... v
tej priamej komunikácii. Z neverbálnej komunikácie sa dá veľa vyčítať, ale... uhm, mal som, ja
nehovorím že to šťastie ale možno, ale patrím do tej skupiny... uhm... gayov, ktorí... ktorým
hneď na prvý krát... uhm... nepovedali, že by si to o mne mysleli, až kým som to ja nevyriekol.
Samozrejme následne už tí ľudia začia... začnú analyzovať a už potom si všímajú tú
komunikáciu, či už verbálnu alebo neverbálnu a už sa im to spája. Ale ako na priamo tí ľudia
by to nepovedali ak by som to sám nepovedal. Ja hneď v úvode, keď som prišiel do nejakej
skupiny a ak sme sa bavili... uhm... kým sme sa nebavili o súkromí, tak som nemal potrebu, ako
vravím, o tom hovoriť, ale ak sme sa začali baviť, tak ja na priamo som to povedal, hej? Že
s týmto som ja ne... problém nemal a dokonca nemám problém povedať to aj cudzím ľuďom
ak sa to priamo opýtali.
I: Ako často sa to asi deje?
R: Uh... asi, asi... asi to už nie je tak často ako v úvode... uh... pretože tým že žijem teraz vo
veľkom meste a pochádzam z východu z malého mesta... uhm... tak teraz pre mňa je to
prirodzená vec, kedy asi sa to... asi to neviem napočítať, hej? Ale nedeje sa to že... že by sa to
automaticky dialo stále, ja... nestretávam sa... uh... teraz.... uh... tak často v rôznych skupinách,
kde by som sa tejto problematike mal venovať. To znamená, ak hovorím o odhalení, hovorím
o mne úzkej skupine ľudí či už z pracovného prostredia alebo to je školské prostredie a tak
ďalej. Samozrejme keď sa pracovne stretnem na nejakom stretnutí s niekým cudzím, tak toto
34
neriešim ani nemám potrebu riešiť, ani to so mnou nikto nechce riešiť, lebo to nie je súčasťou
mojej danej... danej situácie alebo toho stretnutia. Dúfam že som to pochopil... povedať tak
ako... ako to cítim, ako to vnímam.
I: Keď sa môžem spýtať ešte k tomu coming out-u, tak, respektíve aj čo sa týka toho
prirodzeného, lebo aj to je vlastne coming out, stalo sa ti, že by sa ti, alebo si pozoroval, že sa
ti nejak zmenila tá komunikácia s tými ľuďmi po tom, čo o tebe vedeli už že si homosexuál?
R: Áno. A pozitívne. Mám zatiaľ len pozitívne skúsenosti. Mám niekedy pocit, že keď odhalil
som svoju identitu, tí ľudia boli ku mne, nechcem povedať, že ma mali za... že ma mali ešte
radšej, lebo proste ja sa stretávam s ľuďmi, ktorých mám rád a ktorí majú radi mňa. Ja, keď sú
to ľudia, ktorí mi nič nedávajú, ktorí ma nenapĺňajú... uhm... nejakí, nejakým... po psychickej
stránke, alebo po nejakej hodnotovej, tak sa s takými ľuďmi nestretávam. Ale ak sú to ľudia
mne blízki, ktorí iba o mne niečo nevedeli, tak tie vzťahy potom boli omnoho také vyššie,
priateľskejšie a... a také rodinnejšie, čiže pozitívnu reakciu... Zatiaľ, chvalabohu sa mi nestalo...
a hovorím chvalabohu ale nie som veriaci, aby som upozornil na to, možno že aj to je zaujímavé.
Ja som nebol krstený. Netvrdím, že neverím, každý v niečo verí, to je môj názor, ale či to je boh
alebo čokoľvek, každý to inač nazývame a... ale naozaj, zatiaľ som nemal nijakú negatívnu
skúsenosť, že by som povedal, že som gay, alebo že by som to odhalil a bolo by to niečo zlé.
Uhm, a dokonca som to povedal aj... aj pri... pri človeku, zas tak sa mi vynorilo, ktorý bol odo
mňa starší, bol to muž a bolo to v danej chvíli pod vplyvom alkoholu a... a spôsobom, že „a ty
si gay?“ a ja som povedal „Áno, som.“ A to odrovnáš, akože niekedy, keď na priamo... na
priamo to dáš, tak odrovnáš. A je to úplne okej, takže naozaj... Možno mal som to šťastie, že
človek z malého mesta, z menšieho prostredia, skôr som možnože v úvodzovkách „trpel“ v tej
puberte a keď som rástol v tom malom meste, s tým majú možno viacerí skúsenosti, uhm, aj
v mojom veku. Myslím, že vy mladší už tento problém nemusíte mať, aspoň dúfam, aj z tých
menších miest, ale vtedy sme to museli ešte schovávať a možno aj preto, že... že rodičia na to
neboli zvyknutí, možno sa hanbili. Ja mám takú skúsenosť, že, uhm, rodičia, alebo teda otec sa
za mňa čiastočne hanbil keď som si vybral povolanie ženské ako je sestra. Pritom muži... si
myslím, že čoraz viac mužov by malo byť v povolaní... uhm... pretože v zahraničí je to úplne
normálne, v Amerike sa sestrami stávajú vojnoví veteráni a u nás to také ešte nie je. Ale tým,
že ja som začal na sebe pracovať ako na osobnosti a na človeku, začal som kariérne rásť, začali
ma rodičia pozitívne vnímať a čím viac ľudí sa okolo mňa točilo a podporovalo a vnímalo môj...
35
môj vývoj osobnostný, tým menej rodičom to, uhm, vadilo, hlavne otcovi. To si musím úprimne
povedať, že ako som hovoril, že coming out je, že som povedal svojej mame a otcovi, že... že
som gay, to som nikdy neurobil, pretože to oni vedia. Ja som presvedčený, že rodičia to vedia
a vzhľadom na to, že mám štrnásťročný vzťah, že mám partnera a naše rodiny sa teda... on
chodí ku mne a nie že by sa naše rodiny stýkali, lebo on je... ja žijem tu a mám... pochádzam
z východu, takže naše rodiny ako jeho rodičia a moja mama sa nestretávajú, ale minimálne ja
chodím k jeho rodičom úplne bežne, pravidelne, každý víkend a hovorím neoficiálne, že sú to
moji svokrovci, napriek tomu že im vykám a volám ich menom a rovnako on chodí k mojej
mame, takže... a nebavíme sa, kto to je, úplne v pohode, bez problémov mi ponúkne svoju
posteľ mama, hej, keď potrebujeme manželskú, keďže máme len detskú izbu, takže myslím si,
že to je prirodzený výber a takto sa to stalo.
I: Hmm, a ja... čisto sa ešte vrátim k tomu, že... čiže... uhm... keby som to zhrnul, takže
skúsenosť s tým, že zmenila sa komunikácia s tými ľuďmi na pracovisku alebo tak s tými
ľuďmi po coming out-e, ale vždy to bolo k lepšiemu a boli ste... boli tí ľudia... komunikovali
otvorenejšie s tebou a zdielnejší boli možno a tak?
R: Uhm, ten... ten vzťah je stále otvorený, ale ak poviem, že my na pracovisku, teda vravím, že
mám viac tých pracovísk, ale na jednom z nich sme aj viacerí gejovia, s tým, že... uhm... ku
mne sa správajú, uhm, slušne a ku kolegovi viac žoviálnejšie. Možno zasahuje to viac do takého,
uhm, takého s podtónom sexuality a proste bavíš sa aj o praktikách niektorých a tak, ako to
medzi mužmi chodí, napriek tomu, že sú to ženy heterosexuálne, ktoré ťa trošku podpichujú
a u mňa do takejto prízemnejšej komunikácie tí ľudia nejdú, pretože nie som tak postavený
povahovo. Vedel by som tých ľudí odrovnať a nepripúšťam to do úrovní nejakých invektív,
alebo ani nie že invektív, ale to nie sú urážky. To je skôr taká žoviálnosť spontánna, prízemnejšia
diskusia ako keď sa heterosexuálni muži bavia, ako si užili so svojimi ženami, kedy, ako, kedy
a čo a toto sa niekedy stáva napríklad môjmu kolegovi, že idú do tej témy, ale on sa tej témy
chytí. Ja tú tému nerozvíjam. Proste ja poviem áno, nie, bodka a teba to nemusí zaujímať
a ideme ďalej, hej? A nepokladám to za žoviálne, nepokladám to za urážlivé, ale ak hovoríme
teraz o komunikácii, vnímam, že tá komunikácia voči mojej osobe je slušná, bezproblémová,
pretože naozaj, ja mám nejaké hranice toho... toho možno že aj osobnej komunikácie, osobného
života a nikdy si nepúšťam ľudí do toho.
I: Môže to byť aj hierarchiou možno, alebo postavením?
36
R: Uhm, môže to byť... uhm, skôr v tejto, uhm, v tej podobe, o ktorej hovorím to môže byť
a nie hierarchiou, ale skôr... uhm... osobnostnou vybavenosťou, nechcem povedať inteligenciou,
ale skôr osobnostnou vybavenosťou, ale tá vyplýva aj z hierarchie a z vzdelania, hej? Čím máš
vyššie vzdelanie, tí ľudia sú inač prispôsobení na komunikáciu, kdežto ak ho, porovnávam to
so svojim kolegom, tak on ostal vo svojom vzdelaní na úrovni stredoškolskom, ja mám tretí
stupeň vysokej školy, čiže aj tie návyky, komunikačné schopnosti som počas štúdia asi nabral
aj tou prácou s tými ľuďmi.
I: Hej. Uhm, a teraz, keď sa k nemu ešte vrátim, tak myslíte, že to, čo vlastne s ním komunikujú
toto, tak je to nejaké... nejaké, uhm, zacielená nejaká exotizácia, alebo je to niečo vyrovnanejšie
medzi nimi? Neviem, či som sa dobre vyjadril.
R: Asi rozumiem, uhm, skôr je to také uštipačné, podpichovačné. Nechcel by som povedať, že
je to nejako... ani v tej polohe by som to nevnímal... to je... to je... skôr by som to povedal tak,
nie každý si rovnakú vec dovolí k dvom rozdielnym ľuďom rovnako, hej? Možno to isté by sa
opýtali aj mňa, ale úplne inou formou ako sa to opýtajú jeho, hej? Mňa by sa to opýtali slušne,
pretože ja by som len do tej polohy komunikácie išiel... uhm... aj v nejakej konfrontácii a v jeho
prípade, tým, že je cholerickejší typ, výbušnejší typ, takže možno, že aj tých ľudí to trošku vábi
komunikačne ísť do inej polohy, možno do tej žoviálnejšej, do takej bezprostrednejšej.
I: Hej, hej, chápem. Uhm, keď... keď spomínaš toho kolegu, aj že máš viacerých tam teda, ktorí
sú v rámci LGBT komunity, rozprávaš sa... uh... respektíve, neviem, či mám predstaviť pojem
ally, že spojenec, akože ľudia, ktorí ťa podporujú a tak proste, či... či je tam rozdiel
v komunikácii medzi tvojimi heterosexuálnymi kolegyňami a kolegami a potom tými LGBT
ľuďmi.
R: Asi to tak nevnímam, pretože ja som si ich dal vo svojej hlave na jednu úroveň, hej? Uh...
jedine obsahová stránka komunikácie je... hej? Uh, so svojim spolupustovníkom, alebo
s podporovateľom, ako si to nazval sa budem baviť aj na túto súkromnú tému a môžeme
rozvíjať, tak ako sa dvaja heterosexuálni chlapi budú baviť o svojich manželkách, tak budeme
sa my baviť o svojich partneroch a s... s heterosexuálmi možno nemám takú akoby potrebu to
takto otvorene... Nemal by som dôvod, hej? Ako nič by ma to neťahalo nejak, alebo...
I: Čiže čisto obsahovo nejaké veci a tak, ktoré...
R: Jasné. Jasné.
37
I: ...sa viete porozprávať aj na jednej úrovni. A keď sa môžem spýtať, keď bývajú ľudia na
pracovisku, ktorí podporujú tiež svojich LGBT kolegov, bývajú ľudia, ktorí majú možno
z nejakého dôvodu negatívny postoj, ako by ste vy vedeli, alebo ako viete rozoznať, či daný
kolega alebo kolegyňa je nejakým spôsobom taký spojenec, alebo podporovateľ, alebo či bude
mať k vám negatívny postoj ako k homosexuálovi?
R: Nesnažím sa dávať šancu takým ľuďom, aby mali problém s mojou osobou. To znamená...
uhm, aby ma nemali posudzovať na základe mojej orientácie, ale aby ma posudzovali na
základe mojej práce.
I: Hmm.
R: Čiže... uh... ako aj teraz v postavení, v ktorom som, v možno viac konzervatívnejšom svete
a ja som presvedčený, že niektorí ľudia, uh, to môžu cítiť, vnímať, posúdiť, zistiť si, ale
nedávam im šancu aby to použili proti mne a... pretože, uh, pracovné prostredie je o práci a nie
o súkromí a o svojich... o svojom kultúrno-etickom živote, alebo ako by som to v danej chvíli
nazval, zjednodušene v súkromí... akože nejak to... neposudzujem to, alebo nejak nestretol som
sa s tým, že by som sa dostal do takejto úrovne.
I: Že by ste museli rozoznávať, ani na začiatkoch, keď ste boli ešte v Košiciach, tak ste to
nemuseli nejako rozoznávať.
[...]
R: Vieš čo, v Košiciach to boli moje začiatky, takže...
I: Pokojne, ja sa pýtam na celú kariéru od začiatku po teraz.
R: Jasné, jasné, rozumiem, ale vieš, na jednej strane to už bolo ďaleko, vieš, alebo teda dávno,
takže... možno v úvode to bolo trošku ťažšie aj pre mňa, hej, o tom hovoriť, ale, uh, ako
doslovne, že by som to vnímal ako nejakým spôsobom formu alebo súčasť diskriminácie, to
nie.
I: Nepýtam sa na diskrimináciu, ide len o to, že na to niektoré štúdie, čo boli spravené tak... uh...
uvádzali LGBT ľudia na pracovisku, že rozoznávajú týchto ľudí, boli tam samozrejme rôzne
situácie, v ktorých boli rôzne odvetvia, čiže niekde je to ťažšie, niekde možno nie, a...
a rozoznávali to na základe, uh, rôznych demografických znakov, že sa otvorene cítili pri
ľuďoch istého veku, istého pohlavia, istej politiky, istého vierovyznania, z istého regiónu
možno...
38
R: Aha tak. Rozumiem, akože to je v podstate to, čo... na čo som odpovedal možno trošku inač,
že ak som v... v spoločnosti, uh, rovnakých ľudí, tak mne sa lepšie pracuje, hej? A... pracuje,
asi zle hovorím, nie. Pracovať ani nie, lebo uh... skôr lepšie sa mi komunikuje, hej? Lebo mne
tú prácu moja orientácia nejak neovplyvňuje, ale skôr je... je príjemnejšie, keď máš v kolektíve
minimálne niekoho, kto je rovnaký ako ty. Toto určite ja vnímam pozitívne a to pozitívne
vnímam tu v Bratislave, v Košiciach som to nezažil. V Košiciach som bol osamotený, bol som
sám. Ak to porovnám s tým, tak určite... uh... určite som tu úplne komfortný a tu musím
povedať, že to mám aj v jednej práci, uh, aj v druhej práci, hej? Teda...
I: Jasné.
R: ...na ministerstve aj v nemocnici, takže mám predsa nejakého takého kolegu, hoci som
presvedčený, že ich tam je viac, len predsa to nevidieť a oranžová apka neukázala, tak...
[smiech]
I: Áno, áno.
R: Takže tak.
I: A posledná, vlastne taká nadotázka je, že či ste zažili na pracovisku, spomínali ste toho kolegu,
môže to byť na vás, môže to byť na kolegyne, kolegov, že či ste zažili na pracovisku nejakú
formu, uh, heterosexistickej diskriminácie. To môže byť hocičo od nejakej heteronormativity
cez nadávky, vtipy, ohováranie, útoky, hocičo také.
R: Čo možno vnímam, nadávky a takéto nie, osobne... uh... mňa neuráža, keď mi... nemám rád,
keď ľudia hovoria... uh... štandardne o niekom, že to je buzerant, hej? Lebo povedia proste, že
jeho prejav v parlamente, všetci sú buzeranti lebo sa im nepáči ich návrh. Nemám to rád preto,
lebo pre mňa toto slovo buzerant sa mi nepáči, ale keby som to aj zmenil na gay, tak to je
špecifická skupina ľudí a to nie sú všetci, hej? Čiže preto nemám rád, keď sa niekto škatuľkuje
do polohy, alebo keď niekoho škatuľkujeme, že všetci buzeranti. Ako keby sme povedali, že to
je nadávka, oni sú všetci hlupáci, ktorí podali hlúpy zákon a my im povieme, že sú to buzeranti,
lebo to tak nie je, hej? Takže to sa mi nepáči a to sa mi nepáči ani v práci, keď niečo niekto
v nejakej komunikácii, ktorá sa netýka mňa, ale použije toto slovo. A čo možno v praxi skôr,
ale netýka sa to komunikácie opäť, ale pri komunikácii to vadí, keď sa bavíme na tú tému, alebo
nerád o tom otváram komunikáciu s heterosexuálmi niektoré témy, ktoré sa našej skupiny... uh...
týkajú a to z dôvodu, že samozrejme tam nemôžme hneď dospieť k nejakému spoločnému
názoru a to je napríklad na... na registrované partnerstvá, na adopcie a tak ďalej a tak ďalej.
39
Čiže preto niektoré témy, ktoré viem, že sú kontroverzné neotváram. Ale na druhej strane, opäť
si vyberám ľudí, s ktorými, pretože niekto... niektorých ľudí ma ich záujem zaujíma, ale
vyberám si potom takých ľudí, ktorých si viac pustím k telu a ktorí sú mi bližšie a sú priatelia
a vtedy mi ani... ani ten rozdielny názor nejako až tak nevadí, hej?
I: Jasné.
R: Takže, uh... ale nejaké že by narážky vyslovene nie. Narážky nie, len využitie takých tých
slov.
[...]
I: Keď uh... to ste teda zažili takéto rôzne situácie, ale bolo to väčšinou, vždy tak všeobecnejšie,
hovoríte. Nikdy to nebolo tak nasmerované na vás nejako.
R: Uhm.
I: Jasné. Keď sa niekto takto vyjadril, ako ste na to reagovali v tej ktorej situácii, ak si viete na
to spomenúť? Alebo ako ste... čo ste robili v rámci tej situácie, ako ste odpovedali, čo ste
spravili...
R: Ak by sa mi to aj stalo teraz a predpokladám, že asi nebolo ani predtým, aj keď si
nespomínam na takéto... uh... veci, tým že som sa... sa vnímam za normálneho takto, takže preto
niektoré sa mi nevynárajú, možnože by som si musel spomenúť. Keď som bol mladší, ak boli
tieto naráž... narážky... uh, v zmysle „babský cecok“, hej? To bola veľmi obľúbená téma, lebo
som študoval profesiu, kde boli len ženy, boli sme traja v triede, tým pádom už sa vo mne
vzbudzovalo vnútorne aj... uh... aj... aj tá orientácia, už som sa sám rozpoznával, teda v puberte.
Tak vtedy ma to samozrejme urážalo, lebo som bol mladý a vtedy to tak bolo. Bolo trošku aj
iné zloženie... uh... spoločenské. O tých ľuďoch sa menej rozprávalo... uh, menej som ich
poznal vo svojom okolí ako teraz... uh... takže vtedy to bolo možnože pre mňa ťažšie vnímať
aj... aj to absorbovať v rámci komunikácie a teraz sa mi to už nestáva. Že teraz ak by mi to
niekto povedal, tak by som ho rovno odzbrojil spôsobom, že asi... ako to nie je téma, o ktorej
sa máme práve baviť a... a ani ja sa nebavím o tom, čo robí daný človek v svojej spálni, alebo
aká je technika koitu a takéto...
I: Myslíte, že by sa vám, tak sa opýtam, dávate to do takej roviny že keby sa to stalo, myslíte,
že by sa vám zmenila komunikácia s tým človekom? Po takomto niečom?
R: Uh... ak by to bol... uh, blízki priatelia by mi to neurobili, čiže nie...
I: Čisto myslím kolegovia, ľudia na pracovisku...
40
R: Aha, hovoríme stále o tej rovine, dobre.
I: Áno.
R: Uh... určite by som ich... uh... svojim spôsobom... uh... odkryli by svoje karty, na
profesionálnej úrovni by som sa s nimi bavil ďalej, neboli by to asi ľudia, s ktorými by som
išiel na pivo a trávil nejaký voľný čas podľa možností, alebo nejaké... pracovný čas, služobnú
cestu alebo čokoľvek... uh, ale ako v komunikácii... tá komunikácia by sa nejako a priori
nezmenila. Ja by som stanovil... ja mám niektoré princípy, alebo som principiálny človek a ja
v niektorých prípadoch by som si stanovil hranice odkiaľ nie a pokiaľ oni môžu a kam nemusia,
takže asi tak, hej?
I: Jasné.
R: A keby to bol môj nadriadený, tak s ním by som musel naďalej komunikovať... uh... ale ak
by to bol niekto podriadený, tak takého by som si možno nevybral ak by to bolo na mne a že
by som to vedel, ale v takej situácii som nikdy nebol zatiaľ, takže neviem to takto dosť...
[...]
Respondent Nr. 5 (partial translation)
I: [...] I’ll start with what might be an expected question, uhm, have you or did you considered
coming out at work?
R: I have never, uhm, considered it directly. I have always tried to act naturally and not to deny
my sexuality, but I don’t have, uhm, the necessity to confess to someone about my private life,
because I don’t even consider it necessary at others to confess to me, whether they have
a woman or a male lover besides a woman. It’s more natural for me. I began to act in a certain
way, but basically, uhm, since... since childhood, mainly when I was younger, I had a problem
concerning my work choice, always being put in a box based on it. On the other hand, over
time, as I grew up and accepted it, because it was not only about a profession, but it was clear
from the beginning what my sexual orientation is, so it was all right. But as for work, they know
that about me at work, but in a totally natural manner.
I: Natural means, that it somehow... how do you mean that?
R: Like as we are talking about relationships, discussing privacy, I talk about my partner
naturally, as if I would say that I’d been somewhere with wife.
[...]
41
I: Uhm, so it came to that always during a communication and... and the coming out was
somehow natural. How often did these things happen? If it was a one-time issue, that you were
talking and the others recognized it from your communication at once, or whether it is a process
that you need to repeat again and again and again?
R: Uh, when you are beginning somewhere... uh... until people get to know you, uhm, you are,
of course, uhm... in the direct communication. A lot can be observed from the nonverbal
communication, but... uh, I used to have, I’m not saying luck but maybe, but I belong to the
group of... uhm... gays that... whom they wouldn’t primarily... uh... say, that they wouldn’t think
that about me until I told them. Of course, then the people begin to analyze and later observe
the communication, whether verbal or nonverbal and then it connects for them. But like they
wouldn’t say that directly if I didn’t say it. I haven’t had the necessity to, as I say, talk about it
right at the beginning when I entered some group and we were discussing… until we were
discussing privacy, but if we were talking about it, I said it directly, right? So, I haven’t… had
a problem with this and I don’t even have problem to tell it to strangers if they’d ask directly.
I: How often does it occur?
R: Uh... probably, probably... it’s probably not that often as it was at the beginning... uh...
because now that I live in a big city, coming from the east, from a small town... uh... now it’s a
natural thing to me, when it... maybe I can’t count it, right? But it doesn’t happen like... like it
would automatically happen all the time, I... don’t meet... uh... now... uh... that often in different
groups, where I would have to deal with such topic. That means, when I’m talking about a
reveal, I’m talking about me to a close group of people either from the work environment or
the school environment and so on. Of course, when I join a meeting professionally and meet
with someone strange, I don’t deal with it, don’t have the necessity to deal with it, nor does
anyone want to deal with it with me, because it’s not a part of my given... given situation or the
meeting. I hope I’ve understood that... to say it as... as I feel it, as I perceive it.
I: If I can ask about the coming out, so, even considering the natural one, because that’s a
coming out as well, have you experienced or observed, that your communication had somehow
changed with people after they got to know that you were homosexual?
R: Yes. And positively. So far, I’ve only had positive experiences. I have a feeling sometimes,
that when I revealed my identity, the people treated me, I don’t want to say, that they had me
for... they liked me even more, because I just meet people who I like and who like me. I, if there
42
are people who don’t give me anything, who don’t fulfill me... uh... some, on some... on the
psychological basis, or a value one, then I don’t meet those people. But if they are people close
to me, who just didn’t know something about me, then the relationships are somehow on a
higher level, friendlier and… and more familiar, so a positive reaction... [...] ...but really, so far,
I haven’t had any negative experience, that I’d say I’m gay, or that I’d reveal that and it would
be something bad [...] I have the experience, that, uh, my parents, or my father used to be
partially ashamed of me when I chose such a female job as a nurse. Meanwhile, men… I think
that more and more men should be in the profession… uh… because it’s totally normal abroad,
war veterans become nurses in America and it’s not like that here just yet [...]
I: Hmm, I... would just go back to the, so… so… uh... if I were to summarize it, the experience
that the communication changed with the people at workplace or with those people after a
coming out, but it has always been for the better and you were… the people were…
communicated more openly with you and maybe were more open with you and so?
R: Uhm, the... the relationship is still open, but if I say that we at workplace, well, as I say I
have several workplaces, but at one of them, there is more of us, gays, with the fact that… uh…
they treat me, uh, politely and my colleague more jovially. Maybe it goes into some, uh, with a
subtone of sexuality and you just talk about some sexual practices as well and so, as it goes
with men, even though those are heterosexual women that are nagging you a bit and those
people don’t enter any such mundane communication with me, because I’m not built like that
by nature. I would be able to offset those people and I don’t let it to a level of some invectives,
or not even invectives, those aren’t insults after all. It’s more of a joviality, a spontaneous,
mundane discussion like when heterosexual men talk about how they had fun with their women,
when, how, when and what and this, for instance, happens to my colleague, that they enter the
topic, and he catches on to it. I don’t develop that topic. I just say yes, no, dot and it’s none of
your business and we go on, right? And I don’t consider it jovial, I don’t consider it insulting,
but if we are talking about communication now, I perceive, that the communication towards me
is polite, unproblematic, because really, I have certain limits of the… maybe even of the
personal communication, personal life and I never let people into that.
I: Could it also be because of the hierarchy or the position?
R: Uhm, it can be... uh, rather in this, uhm, in this form which I’m talking about it can be and
not because of hierarchy but rather… uh… personal amenities, I don’t want to say intelligence,
43
but rather personal amenities, but that also results from hierarchy and education, right? The
higher form of education you have, the people are adapted for communication differently,
meanwhile if I, comparing it to my colleague, he stayed with his education at the high school
level, I have the third university grade, so I maybe even took on the habits, communicational
capacities during studies by working with those people.
I: Yeah. Uhm, and now if I go back to him, do you think that what they communicate with him
is some… some focused exoticization or is it something more equal between them? I don’t
know whether I’ve expressed myself properly.
R: I guess I understand, uh, it’s rather nagging, mocking. I wouldn’t want to say that it’s some…
I wouldn’t even perceive it that way in that position… it is…it is… I’d rather say it this way,
not everyone would dare the same thing to two different people the same way, right? Maybe if
they would ask me the same thing, but in a totally different way to how they ask him, right?
They’d ask me politely, because I’d only enter that level of communication… uh… even in
some confrontation and in his case, being a more choleric type, explosive type, so it maybe
lures the people to enter communication wise into a different level, maybe the jovial one, more
direct one.
I: Yeah, yeah, I understand. Uh, when… when you mention the colleague, even that you have
more of them there, that are part of the LGBT community, do you speak… [...] ...whether there
is a difference in the communication between your heterosexual colleagues and then the LGBT
people.
R: Maybe I don’t perceive it that way because I’ve put them on the same level in my head, right?
Uh… only the content part of the communication is… right? Uh, I would discuss and develop
even this private topic with my LGBT companion or supporter as you’ve called it, just as two
heterosexual men would talk about their wives, we would talk about our partners and with…
with heterosexuals I might not have the necessity of sorts to be this open… I wouldn’t have any
reason, right? Like nothing would pull me into that or…
I: So, plainly things about content and so that...
R: Right. Right.
I: ... you can even discuss on the same level. And if I can ask, as there are the people supporting
their LGBT colleagues, there are people who may have for various reasons a negative attitude,
44
how would you know or how can you recognize, whether the given colleague is in some way
an ally or a supporter, or if they would have a negative attitude towards you as a homosexual?
R: I’m not trying to give any chance to those people so that they could have a problem with me.
That means… uh, that they should not judge me based on my sexual orientation, but so they
would judge me based on my work.
I: Hmm.
R: So... uh... like even now in the position that I’m in, maybe in a more conservative world and
I’m convinced that some people, uh, can feel it, perceive it, judge it, find out, but I don’t give
them a chance to use it against me and… because, uh, workplace is about work and not privacy
and one’s… about one’s cultural-ethical life or how would I call it at the moment, simply in
privacy… like I… I don’t judge it, or I haven’t experienced that I’d get in that position.
I: That you’d have to recognize it, not even at the beginning, when you were in Košice, you
didn’t have to recognize it.
[...]
R: You know what, those were my beginnings in Košice, so…
I: Sure, I’m asking about the whole career, from the beginning until now.
R: Sure, sure, I understand, but you know, on one hand it has been a while ago, you know, long
time ago, so… maybe it was more difficult to talk about it at the beginning, even for me, but,
uh, like that I’d literally perceive it as a form or a part of discrimination, then no.
I: I’m not asking about discrimination, it’s that some studies have been made that… uh… show
how LGBT people at workplace recognize these people and, of course, there have been various
situations in which there were various industries, so, somewhere it’s difficult, somewhere
maybe not and… and they were recognizing it based on, uh, various demographic signs where
they were feeling more openly with people of certain age, certain sex, certain politics, certain
faith, maybe from certain region…
R: Oh, so. I get it, like that’s basically what… what I’ve answered maybe a bit differently, that
if I’m in… in a company, uh, of similar people, I’m working better, right? And… working,
maybe I’m saying it wrong, no. Not really working, because uh… rather communicating better
with them, right? Because my work isn’t affected by my sexual orientation at all, but rather
it’s… it’s more pleasant if you have someone in the team who is same as you. This is what I
certainly perceive positively, and I perceive it positively here, in Bratislava, I haven’t
45
experienced it in Košice. In Košice I was lonely, I was alone. If I compare it to something, then
certainly… uh… I feel totally comfortable here for sure and I have to say that I have it in one
job and in the other job as well, right? So...
I: Right.
R: ...at the ministry and at the hospital, so I actually have a colleague like that, even though I’m
convinced there is more of them in there, but it’s just not visible and the orange app 7 hasn’t
shown anything, so…
[laughter]
I: Yes, yes.
R: So, like that.
I: And the last one, actually a main question is, if you’ve experienced at your workplace, you’ve
mentioned the colleague, it could be on you, it could be on colleagues, if you’ve experienced
any form of, uh, heterosexist discrimination. This can be anything from some heteronormativity,
through swearing, jokes, gossip, attacks, anything similar.
R: What I may perceive, not swearing or anything like that, personally… uh… I’m offended
if… I don’t like when people say… ordinary about someone that he’s a “faggot”, right? Because
they’d just say that his speech in the parliament, all are “faggots”, because they don’t like their
proposal. I don’t like it, because I don’t like the word “faggot”, but if you changed it to “gay”,
then that’s a specific group of people and that’s not everyone, right? So, that’s why I don’t like
when someone is putting themselves in a box or they’re putting others in boxes, that they’re
“faggots”. That’s if we were to say, that it’s a swearing, they’re all fools that have proposed a
foolish law and we will say they’re “faggots”, because it’s not like that, right? So, I don’t like
that, and I don’t even like it at work, when someone uses that word in a communication that
doesn’t involve me. And maybe what’s in the praxis, but again, not concerning the
communication, but it bothers me in communication, if we are discussing the topic, or I don’t
like to open certain topics in communication with heterosexuals, that are… uh… concerning
our group for the reason, that, of course, we can’t immediately reach some common opinion
and that’s for example about…. About registered partnerships, about adoptions and so on, and
so on. So, that’s why I don’t open certain topics that I know are controversial. But on the other
hand, I choose people with whom, because someone… I don’t care about the opinion of some
7
“the orange app”: Grindr, mobile dating app for gay men
46
people, but then I choose those people who I let closer to me and who are closer and are friends
and then I’m not even… even bothered by the different opinion that much, right?
I: Right.
R: So, uh... but some remarks, not literally. Not remarks, just a use of such words.
[...]
I: If, uh... so you’ve experienced these various situations, but as you say, it has always been
more general. It has never been somehow focused on you.
R: Uhm.
I: Right. When someone expressed themselves like that, how did you react in that situation, if
you can remember? Or how did you… What have you done in that situation, how did you
respond, what have you done…?
R: If it even happened to me now, and I suppose that it hasn’t happened before, even though I
don’t remember these… uh… things, as I… I see myself as normal this way, so that’s why they
don’t come up, maybe I’d have to recall. When I was younger, even if there were these rem…
remarks… uh, in sense of “a hag’s tit”, right? That was a very popular topic, because I was
studying for a profession where there were only women, there was three of us in the class, so
that already aroused internally within myself even… uh… even… even the sexual orientation,
I’d been already recognizing myself, well, in the puberty. Well, by then it certainly offended
me, because I was young and that’s how it was. There was also a different societal… uh…
structure. There was less talk about those people… uh, I had known less of them in my
surroundings than I do now… uh… so, back then it might have been more difficult for me to
perceive it and also… also to absorb it within communication and that doesn’t occur to me now
anymore. Like, now if someone told me that, I’d set them off directly in a way that maybe… it
may not be the topic we should discuss at the moment and… and neither I discuss what that
person does in their bedroom, or what’s the technique of coitus and such…
I: Do you think that, I’ll put it this way, you’re putting it on the level that if it happened to you,
do you think the communication with that person would change for you? After something like
that?
R: Uh... if it was... uh, close friends wouldn’t do that to me, so no...
I: I just mean colleagues, people at workplace…
R: Oh, so we’re still talking about that level, ok.
47
I: Yes.
R: Uh... I’d certainly... uh... in a sense… uh... They’d reveal their cards, I’d continue to talk to
them on a professional level, maybe they wouldn’t be people who I’d take for a beer and
possibly spend my free time with or some… working time, business trip or anything… uh, but
like in the communication… that communication wouldn’t primarily change with that. I’d set…
I have some principles or maybe I’m a man guided by principles and in some cases, I’d set
limits as to where they are allowed and from where not and where they shouldn’t go, so like
that, right?
I: Right.
R: And if it was my supervisor, I’d have to continue communicating with them… uh… but if it
was my subordinate, then I’d probably wouldn’t even choose them if it was up to me, but I
haven’t been in such situation yet, so I can’t really…
[...]
Respondent Nr. 6
I: Ok, so the first question could be kinda expected, ahh... have you or do you consider coming
out at your workplace?
R: Oh, I did... I... I guess like everyone knows, to some people I did in, like, person and then
I guess, like, they just let each other know, but I didn’t hide it and I’m trying to be as open as
I can.
I: How much do you come out? How often do you come out?
R: Well... I don’t... I don’t actually remember like to how many people I would... uhm... I said
it openly, but know I know, that they know after those years, so I’m just... they are talking about
something personal, I am also saying, that my boyfriend did this with me and so on, and so on,
and it seems to be ok. But I cannot... like... hmm... I did it for each job, but I don’t remember
like how, like I didn’t come to... uhm, my colleague and say like: „Ok, hello, I am gay “, it was
just, like, in some conversation, I don’t count it. I tell it.
I: Yeah, we can consider that as a coming out as well, so... so it doesn’t really matter. So, you
would just say, that this was a... more or less a one-time thing in terms of time?
R: Yeah, let’s say it was one-time thing, yeah.
48
I: Has your communication with your colleagues or clients if you communicate closely with
your clients as well, changed somehow?
R: Hmm, I don’t think so, I guess that I am pretty lucky in this and that my colleagues are
usually, like, ok. I can see that some of them are not like, definitely allies, but nobody treats me
bad for that, or I don’t have this experience of rejection. That made it easier, also… uhm, like
that I didn’t have this terrible experience before.
I: So, you maybe stay at the same openness and closeness to your colleagues even after your
coming out, so nothing really has changed in your communication?
R: Yeah, yeah.
I: Ok, you’ve mentioned your… uhm… allies at your workplace. Do you also have some LGBT
colleagues?
R: Actually, now I don’t think so. I guess that I was the only one on both departments, like in
the private sector and the public sector.
I: So, you don’t?
R: Yeah, I don’t. I know that we had, but they left, but… but it wasn’t connected to this, it was
just that they found another job, or something like that.
I: Hmm, ah, so let’s just stick to the allies maybe. Does your communication with other
heterosexual colleagues differ somehow, or clients, with your close allies or the allies in the
workplace?
R: Hmm, well it differs to different colleagues, but I’m not connecting it to this topic. Maybe
when I know that they don’t want to talk about something like that much, I’m not talking about
personal life with them at all, so that’s basically it, I guess.
I: So, you’re not… not, for example, blowing off steam while with your allied colleagues, or
you’re not maybe more open, or less distant to them, or in terms of communication, so it’s
maybe basically the same that is with your other heterosexual colleagues.
R: Yeah.
I: Ah, we can stick to the allies to the next question. How do you recognize an ally, or, on the
other hand a non-supporter at workplace?
R: Well, I… usually in terms of the communication and reactions to some statements from my
side and what they are telling. Sometimes you can… you can say, like somebody is… and there
are also people, who are like… uhm… not comfortable to speak about their personal life at all,
49
so they don’t expect me to do it and so I don’t expect them to do it with me like it’s different.
Maybe we are more distant… uhm… when we don’t cooperate so much together and so on, but
they are still colleagues.
I: Sure, but… but there… would you say, that these people… is it just that their relationship, or
the personality of theirs that they just want to keep the distance or is it a thing of an allyship,
really?
R: I’m not sure, really, how to answer this question.
I: Ok, ok. That is complicated, ok. When we… when we go, what you said about the allies, that
you can recognize them based on the communication and maybe their response, could you
specify maybe with some examples from situations, or be more specific here?
R: Well, I guess, yeah, like we were talking about vaccination lately with one of my colleagues,
and it was completely ok for me to tell her about my boyfriend and his experience with this
vaccination in here and she was telling me about her sister and so on and that’s completely ok.
But then, there is another colleague with… with whom I wouldn’t actually open this, because
he never discussed anything personal with me, so… so like this… that…. that here will probably
be the difference. I’m actually not sure, like if you… I don’t expect anything, like bad happening
after I would tell him the same what I’d told the colleague, I just don’t expect him to share with
me something like this, and therefore, I am reactive in this kind of relationships, so I don’t share
with them.
I: But… but is it really just the thing that… that they don’t want to share private information
with you or is it the thing that they would not accept you?
R: I don’t know, like I can’t be sure, because I never did this as an experiment to try. I’m usually
the one who is waiting for, firstly, for other people to communicate these things, but I know,
that they know that… that’s another thing. So, I cannot be sure if because they know and maybe
with someone else, they will share this kind of information, or it is just because they are like
that.
I: So… so… so you maybe recognize the allies based on how much they want to share their
private information, right? If we can generalize
R: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would say that, of course.
I: Good, I’m just asking, because in several studies, that were done abroad, the thing is that
people tried to or admit recognizing allies or non-supporters, for example based on religion, or
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geography, where they’re coming from, age, gender, uhm… politics maybe, etc. This wouldn’t
be the case for you, right?
R: No, I am actually, well, I remember once that we had a colleague at university, and she was
like super religious, and she was like completely opposed to it, because I have seen what she
shared on her Facebook page. But she’s not working there anymore, and we didn’t have, like
very close relationship, so… uhm… but when we needed something, it was ok, but we didn’t…
didn’t talk about this private stuff and so… yeah, I was a little bit, like prejudiced against her,
but, yeah, we did have rules in this, that I had known before, I like cooperated with her on her
status in her… like her intern and opinions.
I: So, she was clear… you can say, that she was clear about her opinions against LGBT people,
right?
R: Yeah, like afraid, like they’re all at this.
I: Hmm. Maybe… maybe some of the questions that I’m asking are… can sound too simple,
but I want to specify it for… just for the record, so…
R: It’s good, it’s completely ok, I just try to think about it in order to, like, to say it as it is, as
much as it is, like not to project anything on my colleague which I would just project on them
and it is not based on, like total knowledge.
I: That’s completely fine and ok. Ok, so… so we can go for the next question, and that is, have
you experienced any form of heterosexist (or transphobic even) discrimination or threats in your
workplace? This could range from heteronormativity to forced outing, slurs, jokes, gossip,
ostracism, etc.
R: Well… uhm… nothing which I would consider really, really bad, but we in Slovakia, we are
used to higher level of these things, and I can say that definitely… uhm… depends for me on
the age of the colleagues. Like, the older generation, I would say, they have this border of what
is appropriate and what is inappropriate much… in much different level, but it doesn’t… uhm…
It is not just in relationship to LGBT problems and problematics, but… but to, like, women and,
like, much wider top… uhm, scope of topics, which is uhm… which is for them, like,
completely ok to make fun of, and I know them, and I know that they don’t mean it as bad as it
sounds sometimes. But yes, you could definitely say, that I encounter some joking about this
topic.
I: So, so, so… the only thing you’ve encountered was… were the jokes, right?
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R: Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. There weren’t like personal and sometimes I was part of it, like
at the joke back or something, like that. So, it was like friendly joking, not… not like some sort
of discrimination. But I know, because they are like that.
I: So, the jokes were guided at you personally or they were more in general, or…
R: More in general, yeah.
I: Oh, in general, ok. So… so you didn’t respond to them in any specific manner, right? You
just let it go?
R: No, usually I would let it go and sometimes I had something funny in my head and I would
say it back. But it’s not happening often, sometimes. And usually, it’s also depending on the
mood in which we are, because it’s different in the office and it’s different when we have, like
a team building in some cottage somewhere, and they are all drunk and, you know, then also
the levels of what is appropriate are different, so… practically that would be that variance.
But… yeah.
I: So… so your communication with them at the workplace didn’t… didn’t even change
somehow, so… so it stayed the same, right?
R: Yeah, yeah. I guess so. Like it’s quite open, but we… well… don’t usually joke much during
the work hours, but when you asked about it, the only thing in which I could think of it, there
was some jokes and that’s it.
I: Hmm, ok, that, well… that was pretty easy, and it was all from my side and if you have
something to ask or add maybe, then feel free to do so.
R: Well, I guess that maybe the important thing is the workplace itself, because I told you in the
beginning, that I’m a bit lucky, because they know me for a long time at university, because I
was studying there and then they decided that they want to keep me there, because of my… I
don’t know… of, like, skills. And then also the second, the private work starts. My current
department, they are like a small company for accountancy, so it’s just like 20 people and I have
no need to have like some straight policies and checking on every scale and I am in the position,
that they came there when we joined two companies. Like my previous, separate one and theirs.
So. I’m also in the position, like not the regular employee. But still, my… uhm… my job
description would be something like senior accountant manager or something like that.
I: Would you say that the hierarchy in the… in this workplace is flatter, or…?
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R: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s definitely flatter. It’s just like three of us who joined the companies
and then… well the other colleagues and… and that’s it basically. But I’m… I’m also not the
boss, but I’m also not under someone, like strictly. It’s just us three, like the main… uhm…
owners you could say, and we are doing this, like, strategic decisions together, but then the rest
is our colleagues, and we consider them like that, so it’s very, very flat.
I: I see. Well, great. Well, I… I am finished for now, I have everything I needed from you, I
guess, so thank you very much, one more time and thank you for your time.
R: Yeah, well I hope it’s the case, it… shouldn’t it be like one hour? Like very short now.
I: Well, the interviews… I can stop recording by now, I guess.
Respondent Nr. 7
I: Čiže, jak hovorím, prvá, asi taká očakávaná otázka: mal si coming out alebo si zvažoval
coming out v práci?
R: Uhm... takto... uhm... určite áno, ale my, keďže sme tam v podstate nejakým spôsobom
moderní ľudia tak my sexuálnu orientáciu nejakým spôsobom absolútne neriešime, pretože je
to každého súkromná vec. Ale samozrejme, že moji kolegovci nielen v tých spomínaných dvoch
prácach, ale aj predtým boli... uhm... informovaní o tejto skutočnosti a patrične sme potom
takéto nejaké zadosťučinenie vždy, v živote, vždy aj oslávili aby to teda malo ten nejaký
slovenský prínos pre nás všetkých, takže áno.
I: Asi viem, čo myslíš, hej. No a ako... ako často, bola to taká... bola to nejaká jednorázovka,
alebo to bolo niekoľkonásobné, respektíve niekoľko ráz si musel spraviť coming out?
R: Ah, takto, ja som o tom rozprával iba ľuďom, o ktorých som bol presvedčený, že naše
kamarátstvo vydrží aj vtedy keď tam dám výpoveď, aj keď sa to neskôr postupom času ukázalo
ako totálna blbosť, ale vždycky to bolo v podstate iba nejakým vybraným ľuďom. S tými
najbližšími, s ktorými som sa napríklad každodenne alebo v nejakej tej určitej periodicite
stretával.
I: Hmm, čiže čisto kolegovia, hej?
R: Áno, presne tak.
I: Ako často to asi bolo?
R: No tak v každej jednej práci, tak ja neviem, ja som ich mal dosť veľa, no tak neboli práce,
to boli brigády, takže neviem, či sa to do toho ráta.
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I: V pohode.
R: Takže v podstate každý jeden... ja neviem, nech to bolo päťkrát, ale päťkrát s nejakými
vybranými ľuďmi
I: Hmm, jasné. A keď si mal ten coming out s nimi, zmenila sa nejako tvoja komunikácia s nimi?
R: Uhm, ja si myslím, že sa to vždycky zlepšilo iba k lepšiemu, respektíve to, ako sme si zo
seba robili srandu a ako sme, ja neviem, nejaké... uhm.. mali možno nejaké perverzné narážky,
alebo proste akože si robili zo seba regulárne piču. Teda pardon za výraz. Tak v podstate ono to
vždy k tomu nejak prispelo k tej otvorenosti, k tomu, že to bolo potom proste jedného dňa už
všetko fajn.
I: Jasné. Asi si sa cítil aj uvoľnenejší?
R: Uhm, tak ja som to... napríklad ja vôbec nie som taký ten typ človeka že keby mi na to aj
niekto niečo zlé povedal, tak že by som sa na neho nejakým spôsobom hneval, lebo v prípade
niektorých ľudí by to bolo fakt dosť divné.
I: Hej.
R: A akože určite mi to nejakým spôsobom pomohlo a ani nie... ani keď som možno nepovedal
že nejaký, ako keby kameň zo srdca mi proste padol, ale keď sa ma niekto vypytoval, že s kým
by som chcel byť šťastný, lebo ono je to v tomto prípade vždycky na začiatku v nejakom
neurčitom pohlaví a zvyčajne to slovo musí byť ženského rodu aby to bolo v poriadku.
I: Hej.
R: Tak o to to bolo proste potom ľahšie, že hej, že pravda, tí neprajní jednoducho vypadali
a hotovo. Takže asi tak nejako.
I: Jasné. Mal si kolegovcov, ktorí boli tiež z LGBT komunity?
R: Uhm takto, ja sa obávam, že či v tom štúdiu vôbec robí heterosexuál okrem nášho šéfa. Takže
potom... nechcel by som to nejako vyčísliť, lebo v podstate tam sme sa stretli ako fakt partia
super ľudí, aj keď my sme sa v živote reálne nevideli, lebo mi tam nahrávame postupne, čo aj
keď máme projekt, tak my to vždy nahrávame po častiach. Takže ja neviem akože, žijú si
v krásnom partnerstve a aj im samozrejme držím palce a tak ďalej, takže...
I: Hej.
R: Mám aj kolegovcov... v podstate v každej tej jedenej práci sa našiel niekto, len ja som mal
vždy ten problém, že som si to nevedel s tým konkrétnym človekom predstaviť, tak som mu
aspoň držal palce.
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I: Hmm. Hej hej. Myslíš, že bola tvoja komunikácia iná, respektíve je iná s nimi než s hetero
kolegami?
R: No, tak ako keby som to posudzoval podľa posledného zamestnania, tak to nie, lebo my sme
si robili akože srandu zo seba úplne všetci navzájom bez ohľadu na pohlavie a rod, sexuálnu
orientáciu a tak, takže toto neviem nejako 100%, toto nezodpovedá že či áno alebo nie. Proste...
tak vždy je to nejako... akože čo si sa pýtal ešte raz? Sorry, lebo ja som dneska... Ešte raz potom?
I: V pohode, v pohode. Či tvoja komunikácia, ktorú máš s hetero kolegami je iná než tá, ktorú
máš s... s gay kolegami alebo s inými teplými kolegami?
R: Nie, odpoveď je nie.
I: Nie. Dobre, v poriadku. Okej, tak môžeme ísť na ďalšiu otázku a to je... uhm... poznáš asi
pojem ally, respektíve „spojenec“?
R: No, asi takto čo mne... možno, ale možno nie.
I: Hej, akože heterosexuálni ľudia, ktorí sú nejakí spojenci, respektíve podporujú... uhm...
zastávajú sa v práci alebo v komunite nejako ľudí.
R: Možno ally, či čo.
I: Ally. Hej, hej, hej.
R: No, dobre.
I: Uhm, ako vieš rozpoznať, že či je niekto takýto spojenec, alebo na druhú stranu, že by mohol
byť k tebe kvôli tvojej orientácii nejak negatívne naladený? Ako to vieš rozpoznať na
pracovisku?
R: Uhm, no tak... uhm... Ja som sa akože na pracovisku s týmto akože nejako nestretol, hej, že
by boli nejako negatívne naladení... niekto voči mne, lebo ja som sa aj vždycky snažil pomôcť
ako som vedel. Ale akože napríklad mne to nikto nikdy v živote nedal nejakým spôsobom
pocítiť, že by si akože voči mne išiel kompenzovať svoje komplexy.
I: Hej, hej, hej.
R: Na to je úplne iná platforma, a hlavne v noci, takže... V pohode... uhm... Akože toto sa mi
nikdy tak nejako nestalo, že by akože „hej ty kokotko“, alebo čo.
I: Nemyslím... nemyslím priamo útoky, ale akože dajme tomu, že si na pracovisku a či už
napríklad ide o ten coming out, rozhodneš sa alebo nerozhodneš sa to... niekomu sa s tým
zdôveriť a na to asi potrebuješ aj do nejakej miery možno vedieť, že či ťa ten človek bude
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podporovať alebo bude nejaké napätie potom s ním. Či vieš proste odhadnúť, že či ten človek,
ako sa zachová, či pozitívne alebo negatívne potom. Či vieš takto...
R: No...
I: Lebo ak sa... prepáč, ešte len skúsim možno upresniť, že sú štúdie, kde ľudia uvádzali, že
proste vedia rozoznať, že títo spojenci takzvaní sú podľa nich nejakého... konkrétne podľa
politiky, podľa náboženstva to vedia, podľa pôvodu, podľa veku sa snažia určiť, že do akej
miery asi by s ním bol v pohode alebo nie.
R: No...
I: Či to tak máš alebo či je to čisto na základe komunikácie možno s nimi.
R: Uhm, takto, mňa môj život aj niečo naučil a síce že nestačí, keď človek vidí teda, že nejako
vyzerá a teda prehovorí nejakú jednu dve, poväčšinou holé vety a teda už vtedy viem, že či
s tým človekom mám vôbec nejakým spôsobom niečo začínať. Takže... takže nejaký vnútorný
pocit, že toto bude akože čistá katastrofa, alebo proste že s týmto to ďaleko v živote
nedotiahnem... aj lebo keby všetci boli takíto, tak je to dobre... akože niekde, ale akože ja...
neviem, proste nie... Ja si k tomu človeku musím proste vybudovať nejaký vzťah, no
poväčšinou je to vzťah, že je mi tých ľudí dosť ľúto. V podstate ja sa pri nich snažím nejakým
spôsobom, hej, že... inter... aby tam bola nejaká tá komunikácia alebo nejaká tá spätná väzba,
alebo neviem ako by som to pomenoval. Ale určite, ako keby strašne je dôležité, že čo ten
človek rozprával, lebo keď niekto melie chujoviny, tak je jasné, že tam sa to nejakým spôsobom
neoplatí. Takže neviem, či toto bola odpoveď na otázku, ale inak to...
I: Áno, to je to, čo som sa pýtal, že či aj to na základe komunikácie by si to vedel povedať
nejako. To, čo si hovoril toho tušáka, že by si mal, tak ten je na základe niečoho konkrétneho
myslíš? Že by si to vedel špecifikovať? Či je to úplne len že z brucha?
R: Tak ja neviem, ako vieš, že by som teraz proste pomenoval tak, že... uhm... a to teraz bude
znieť strašne sproste, to do Progresívneho Slovenska ani neposielaj...
I: V pohode, v pohode.
R: Ja mám proste nejakým spôsobom také predpoklady, voči niektorým ľuďom sa snažím byť
milší, čo sa týka jedného aj druhého pohlavia. Takže ja sa asi podľa takých nejakých vecí
rozhodujem. Neviem, takto akože neskoro... napríklad hej, teda na príklad, lebo vždycky treba
uviesť príklad keď človek nevie, čo má povedať. Tak ja mám takú jednu kamarátku, ktorá
nemala prsia menšie ako päťky, hej? Že ja si proste týchto ľudí do svojho života priťahujem.
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Ale tiež som to zistil až keď som si ich všetky všimol, že to majú, hej? Ja som to podvedome
proste vyhľadával, a ja som proste netušil, ale až potom sme sa tak raz fotili, reku že... pána.
Neviem fakt, že čo to je, lebo akože keby som sa mal týmto zapodievať v živote, tak to by bolo
akože katastrofálne.
I: To je... to je na úplne inú štúdiu podľa mňa.
R: No, no, no, tak, že z detstva veci a tak nevysporiadané. To je v pohode. Takže fakt neviem.
Ja sa proste v tom... Akože ja to poviem úplne úprimne, hej, že pozriem sa a vidím teda, že či
áno, že či by sa s tým dalo niečo, ale akože ja sa nejako nes... a hlavne keď je niekto od prvého
momentu strašne odporný, tak ja nedokážem byť k tomu človeku dlhodobo milý. Ale to je podľa
mňa už také normálne.
I: Odporne myslíš akože čisto že správaním, hej?
R: Uhm... áno, alebo keď sa proste chová tak ako drzo alebo povýšenecky, lebo podľa mňa
najhoršie je keď sa človek správa povýšenecky a pritom je to obyčajný... zase niečo, ale
nebudem hovoriť, lebo aby bol pekný záznam.
I: Ďakujem.
R: Ja sa musím na to... Lebo ja mám tak príšerný asi úpal alebo niečo že...
I: V pohode, v pohode.
R: Takže, akože je to také, no. Smutné.
I: Hej.
R: [smiech] Tak čo tam máš? [smiech]
I: Spomínal si, že si nikto na tebe nejaké komplexy nevybíjal, nič také, ale čisto keby si sa teraz,
že tuho zamyslel nad tým, a môžu byť kľudne aj tie brigády, hocičo, čo si mal v rámci tejto
pracovnej skúsenosti, zažil si, a nemuselo to byť cielené na teba, mohlo to byť aj na niekoho
druhého, zažil si nejakú formu heterosexuálnej diskriminácie? To môže byť úplne hocičo od
čistej heteronormativity, čo si myslím aj spomínal, to, že očakávanie, nejakú ženu, až cez
násilný coming out, nevhodné, vtipy, nadávky, ohováranie, ostracizmus... ostrakizmus, úplne
hocičo z tohto.
R: No takto. Viem ti povedať, že v ktorej práci by to bolo podľa mňa úplne najhoršie a to som
raz takú jednu psycho-alko-terapiu absolvoval s takým jedným tu u nás na dedine, ale ten bol
vtedy strašne nadrbaný, tak povedal všetko. A už podľa mňa najhoršie je, keď... uhm... sa
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ocitne... a toto inak tiež hovorím taký príklad, ale aspoň si to myslím, hej? Tak aspoň budeš mať
na to nejakú odpoveď.
I: Akože ideálne sú stále príklady, tie sú najlepšie pre mňa tuto, takže...
R: Ja som zvedavý na tie príklady, čo mne dajú do bakalárskej práce, že čo tí ľudia robia.
[smiech]
R: On mi to tak aj rozprával a vtedy som si vlastne uvedomil, lebo ja som istý čas, keď sa staval
v Nitre [meno firmy], tak ja som tam akože robil, som dával... ako bola jedna firma, ktorej som
ja musel dávať pozor na to, že keby sa tí ľudia išli zabiť, tak im musím zavolať záchranku
a v podstate tam si myslím, že tam by mohol byť ten problém. Ale to sa veľakrát napríklad stáva
aj teraz v robote čo som mal, tak proste sú istí spolupracovníci, s tou poisťovňou, kde robím,
ktorí v podstate sú pár a vychovávajú deti a sú vlastne... vždy keď sa spomínali, tak to nebolo
že „náš kolega maklér“, ale to bolo vždycky „ten vyjebaný buzerant“, lebo proste ako nemali
s ním dobré skúsenosti a nejakým spôsobom možno že v ich očiach slabinu vždycky pretavili
do tej nadávky, ktorou by ho nejakým spôsobom urazili, hlavne že ony sú všetky rozvedené.
I: Čisto... budem sa pýtať jednoduché niektoré otázky, že to bude znieť jednoducho, ale čisto
pre záznam akože, to, že nemali s ním dobré skúsenosti, myslíš, že nemali s ním profesionál...
po profesionálnej, pracovnej stránke dobré skúsenosti s tým maklérom, hej?
R: Hmm.
I: Jasné.
R: A preto v podstate v tej nadávke, aby sa nepovedalo iba že to je, ja neviem, proste niečo na
päť písmen, tak sa vlastne vždycky zakomponovalo to, čo v očiach možno že spoločnosti ešte
neni na Slovensku v takej norme, aby sa to bralo, že to je v podstate úplne bežná vec teda
a existuje na svete.
I: Ty si na to ako reagoval na takéto veci?
R: No ja keď som hento počul, tak mňa napadlo iba to, čo tá kolegyňa rozprávala pred chvíľou
o inej a som pochopil, že to je jeden začarovaný bludný kruh, do ktorého sa človek nepotrebuje
nejakým spôsobom zapojiť, lebo som na to nemal nervy a po pravde som vtedy mal príšernú
opicu, takže akože som to vtedy vôbec akože neriešil, ale akože on je fakt idiot.
I: Hej.
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R: Takže je to... je to oprávnené, aj keď teda ten vulgarizmus by mohol byť na neho častovaný
skutočne tým regulárnym slovenským na päť písmen a nemusel by tam byť zapojený žiadny
hanlivý výraz označujúci člena istej sexuálnej menšiny. Toto bola krásna veta, toto normálne...
I: Paráda, paráda. Čiže, v podstate, ty si na to nijak veľmi nereagoval, alebo si sa snažil nejak
odtiahnuť od tej kolegyne, alebo si sa dištancoval od nej, alebo...
R: Lebo tam sa vždy chlastá, čiže v podstate to bolo úplne jedno, lebo to bol ešte len začiatok
celodenného osierania všetkých naokolo, ktorí tam zhodou okolností v tej chvíli neboli. Takže
ja som k tým osobám necítil nejakú... Akože a teraz to je možno že smutné keď to takto poviem,
ale proste ožratej nevysvetlíš, že či má alebo nemá pravdu, lebo keď má niekto tri promile ráno
o desiatej tak tam sa toho už veľa stihnúť nedá.
I: Hej.
R: Takže to sa... bolo hento akože... ah... akože viackrát prepierané a v podstate taká tá základná
myšlienka, hej, že ako sa oni dvaja môžu postarať, keď oni takto niekoho klamú a podobné
kraviny. To bolo tak. No, to, čo som ti chcel povedať, že v podstate si myslím, že možno že
najťažšie je to povedať v takom pracovnom kolektíve, kde sú možno že všetci už ženatí, teda
možno že niektorí už aj šťastne rozvedení a v podstate, že... uhm... sú to v podstate ľudia, ktorí
ten život berú tak, ako príde a pokiaľ sa stretnú v živote s niečím nejakým novým, alebo teda
niečím, čo v živote predtým nevideli, tak to môže v nich evokovať tú nevedomosť a predsudok
samozrejme. Sorry, ja sa musím...
I: V pohode, v pohode. Čiže toto bol taký jediný prípad, čo si tam mal, hej?
R: No, akože ten v tejto poslednej, áno. A ako hovorím, tam mi v tom štúdiu, to tam akože fakt
to je heterosexualita zvláštnosťou, takže tam sa nejaké „buzík“ alebo niečo vôbec neriešilo,
lebo tak predsa nebudeme si kopať do svojich, aj keď my sa tam ako neznášame všetci, lebo
my sa neznesieme moc, ale akože.. uhm... nikto mi nič takého zlého nepovedal.
I: Hej. Čo sa týka tej kolegyne, tak nejako sa ti zmenila aj komunikácia s ňou potom na
pracovisku akože, alebo...?
R: No takto, ja som toho času nevedel, ako dlho sa v tej práci zdržím, lebo ja som tam išiel iba
na pár dní a v podstate akože ten... Nič takého konkrétneho... akože môj názor na ňu sa nezmenil,
lebo mňa moja kamarátka, ktorá tam robila predo mnou informovala o tomto, aký každý je a čo
od neho môžem čakať, čiže potom som nebol ani šokovaný, ani sklamaný, ani prekvapený, ani
nič proste. Ja som ju bral len naďalej tak, že proste je to kolegyňa, ktorá je v mojom živote na
59
nejakých pár, vtedy som si myslel že dní, dnes už viem, že to bolo desať mesiacov a v podstate
akože vôbec... A zasa ja som ani nemal nejakú potrebu sa s ňou nejako baviť bližšie alebo niečo.
Čo tam taká ona spodných päť zásadne do seba ide dať proste ako... Čo s takými ľuďmi ja...?
I: [smiech]
R: To vôbec.
I: Hej.
R: To sú takí ľudia, ktorí by boli veľmi radi, keby sa to v tom osemdesiatom deviatom nezvrtlo
týmto smerom, ktorým to išlo a oni si žijú ešte niekde vo svojich nejakých predstavách takže...
To je ťažké.
I: Hej. Tak napríklad to je presne to inak, čo som hovoril predtým, že okej, napríklad niektorí
ľudia sú takí, že keby mali teraz mať nejaký coming out v takomto prostredí, tak... tak určite si
ho nevyberú možno práve preto, že má nejaké politické zmýšľanie, alebo nejako sa vyjadrovala
a tak ďalej.
R: Ale akože je to dosť zlé, lebo napríklad u nás vedľa býva, má krásne X5-ku oblepenú tým...
uhm... „v zemi křesťanů mešita stojí“, akože toto ĽSNS autíčko a všetci pozerali akože či je
všetko na poriadku a napríklad pred ním by som akože...ani nie že sa nebál, tak ja som... ja
mám názor taký aký mám na... na istý... istý... istý druh táborov tak... ako nie táborov, bože,
prívržencov strán, takže to si myslím, že to by muselo byť horšie. No a teda ešte... ešte obzvlášť
keď takto človek dá navonok... Ale on... akože ono je to ťažké, lebo si zober v podstate jedno,
že... že keď sa ma... že každý s tým nejakým spôsobom súhlasí. Vieš, však všetci teda vieme,
však aj z minulosti, aj na dedine vždycky bol akože nejaký starý mládenec, aj keď ja si myslím,
že starý mládenci boli všetci teplí. To som stopercentne o tom presvedčený. Uhm, ale v podstate
že ono sa to nejakým spôsobom akože toleruje, všetci sú... ale keď sa to má posunúť niekam,
do nejakého konkrétneho smeru, tak už sa ľudia vyhovárajú na to, že oni tak neboli vychovaní,
alebo im to viera nedovoľuje, alebo si nájdu nejakú ďalšiu chujovinu, ktorá im vtedy padne
a vtedy je to potom ako dosť náročné, no.
I: Hej.
R: Vysvetľovať niekomu niečo. Takže tak, no. A pokiaľ ja... najlepšie coming out-y sú, keď sú
ľudia ožratí jak dogy, lebo vtedy povedia už po istom promile a už potom sa to teda nedá zvrátiť
60
späť, ale potom všetci iba plačú, že akí sme všetci radi, že si nám to povedal. Ako ja som
veľakrát takto utešoval kadekoho.
I: Nápodobne.
R: Tak to bolo akože... Ale fakt, lebo to bolo vtedy je vlastne jasné, že človek to potrebuje
dostať zo seba von a zhodou okolností to bolo metódou akože sedmičky vodky. Takže je
pochopiteľné, že sa to nejako proste vyventilovať muselo a... a tak, no. [smiech]
I: Poznám, zažil som tiež také.
[...]
Respondent Nr. 7 (partial translation)
I: So, as I’m saying, the first, maybe awaited question: have you come out or have you
considered coming out at your job?
R: Uhm... well... uhm... yes, for sure, but we, as we are basically modern people in some sense
there, we don’t really deal with sexual orientation at all, because it’s everyone’s private issue.
But of course that my colleagues, not only in those two already mentioned jobs were even
before... uhm... informed about this fact and we have then always celebrated such shrift in life
accordingly in order for it to have some of that “Slovak benefit” for all of us, so yes.
I: I think I know what you mean, yeah. But like... how often, was it some... some one-time thing
or was it multiple times, or did you have to come out several times?
R: Ah, let’s put it this way, I only talked about it with people, with whom I was sure that our
friendship would last even when I would give my notice, even though, with time, it turned out
as a complete bullshit, but it was always basically only to some selected people. To the closest
ones, with whom I used to meet daily or with some certain periodicity.
I: Hmm, so only colleagues, right?
R: Yes, exactly.
I: How often was it, approximately?
61
R: Well, in every single job, I don’t know, I’ve had quite a lot of them, well they weren’t jobs,
just some part time jobs, so I don’t know, whether it counts.
I: All right.
R: So, basically every single... I don’t know, even if it was five times, but five times with some
selected people.
I: Hmm, sure. And when you had the coming out, have your communication changed somehow
with them?
R: Uhm, I think, that it have always only changed for better, respectively the way how we used
to make fun of each other and how we, I don’t know, some... uhm... we might use to have some
perverse remarks, or just making fun of each other regularly. Pardon me for the expression.
Well, it basically contributed to the openness, to the fact, that it was suddenly fine from day to
day.
I: Sure. Maybe you were even feeling more relieved?
R: Uhm, well I... for example, I’m not the type of person to be angry at someone after they
would even tell me anything bad about it, because in case of some people, it would be very
weird, really.
I: Yeah.
R: And like, it certainly helped me somehow and not even... even if I maybe wouldn’t say that
it was some, like a weight off my heart, but when somebody was asking, with whom I would
be happy, because in the beginning it’s always in some neutral sex and the word usually has to
be of a female gender in order to be right.
I: Yeah.
R: So, with that it was easier, like yeah, it’s true that those unsupportive ones just dropped out
and done. So, like that.
[...]
I: Hmm. Yeah, yeah. Do you think that your communication with them (LGBT colleagues) was
or is different to that with your straight colleagues?
R: Well, If I would be considering that based on the last job, then no, because we were all
making fun of each other, regardless of sex and gender, sexual orientation and so, so I don’t
know this for 100%, this doesn’t respond to yes or no. [...] No, the answer is no.
[...]
62
I: Uhm, can you recognize if somebody is such an ally or, on the other hand, that they could be
somehow negatively tuned against you because of your orientation? Or how can you recognize
that at your workplace?
R: Uhm, well, so... uhm... Like, I haven’t encountered that at the workplace yet, yeah, that they
would be somehow negatively tuned... someone against me, because I have always tried to help
as much as I can too. But, like, for example, nobody has ever let me feel that in any way, like
that they would be compensating their complexes on me.
[...]
R: Uhm, so to say, my life has taught me something, namely, that it is not enough to see what
someone looks like and so hear them say one or two, mostly simple, sentences and then I would
already know, whether I should start something with that person. So... some inner feeling that,
like, this is going to be a total catastrophe, or that I wouldn’t carry on with them for too long in
my life... [...] I just need to build a relationship with that person, well, it’s mostly a relationship
that I feel pity for those people. Basically, I try to be around them somehow, yeah, that... inter...
that there is some communication or some feedback or I don’t know how to call that. But sure,
like it’s very important what that person was talking about or if someone is talking shit, it’s
clear that it doesn’t pay off with them. So, I don’t know if that was a response to that question,
but otherwise it...
[...]
R: But for example, it has happened a lot even now in the job I’ve had, there are just certain coworkers of the insurance company where I’ve been working, that are basically a couple and
they raise children and are actually... every time they have been mentioned, it wasn’t “our
colleague broker“ but it was always “that fucking faggot“, because they just didn’t have any
good experience with him and have transformed that, what may have been a weakness for them,
into that swearing that would offend him the most, main thing they are all divorced.
I: [...] them not having good experience with him, do you mean, that they didn’t have
professional... good professional experience with the broker, right?
R: Hmm.
I: Sure.
63
R: And basically, because of that, not to say only that he’s just, I don’t know, some five-letter
word8, it always consisted of what maybe still isn’t a norm in Slovakia in order for it to be
a regular thing present in the world.
I: How did you respond to these things?
R: Well, when I’ve heard that, I thought of what that colleague talked about a while ago about
another one and I understood, that it was one magic circle in which one doesn’t want to get
involved because I didn’t have the nerve and, frankly, I was terribly hungover at the time, so
I didn’t deal with that at all, but he really is an idiot.
[...]
R: Because there is always some heavy drinking going on, so it basically didn’t matter, as that
was just the beginning of an all-day long gossip about everyone around that just weren’t in the
room at the moment. So, to those people I didn’t feel any... Like, and now it may be sad that I’d
put it this way, but you just couldn’t explain to a drunk person, whether she has or doesn’t have
the truth, because if someone has three per mille at 10 in the morning, there is not much left to
do.
I: Yeah.
R: So that... that was like... ah... like discussed many times and basically such a main idea, yeah,
that how can they two take care of kids when they are lying like this and similar stupidities. It
was like that. Well, what I wanted to tell you, what I basically think is, that it may be the most
difficult to say that in a work team, where everyone might be already married, well, maybe
some of them are even already happily divorced and basically that... uhm... they are basically
people who are taking the life just as it comes and until they won’t come over something new
in their life, or something they have never seen before, it can evoke the ignorance and prejudice,
obviously. Sorry, I have to...
I: All right, all right. So, this was just a single case you’ve had there, right?
R: Well, like in the last one, yes. And as I say, there in the studio, heterosexuality was really
a curiosity so there was no way to be dealing with some “faggot” or so, because we obviously
wouldn’t kick into our ranks even though we hate each other, because we don’t get along that
much with each other, but like... nobody had ever told me anything bad.
8
Referring to a Slovak swearing
64
I: Yeah. Talking about that colleague, did your communication with her change at the workplace,
or...?
R: Well, it was like this, at the time I didn’t know how long I would stay at that job, because I’d
only come there for a couple of days and basically the... Nothing that specific... Like my opinion
about her hadn’t changed, because my friend who used to work there before me informed me
about this, how everyone is and what can I expect from them, so I wasn’t shocked then, neither
disappointed, nor surprised or anything. I just took her as a colleague who would be in my life
for a couple, back then I thought days, now I know it was ten months and basically not at all...
And also, I didn’t have any necessity to somehow get any closer with her or something. [...]
That’s the kind of people who would be very glad if it won’t turn into this direction in the 1989,
who had been doing good before and who are still living somewhere in their illusions, so... it’s
difficult.
[...]
Respondent Nr. 8
I: …teraz. Ok. Prvá otázka je taká dosť očakávaná, a to, že, mali ste, alebo zvažujete coming
out na pracovisku?
R: No, uhm, nemôžem dať na to úplne jednoznačnú odpoveď, lebo to nie je také, že
stopercentné, ale teda som čiastočne vy-out-ovaný na pracovisku, uhm, s takými... zopár
kolegov, ktorých mám tak bližšie, tak s nimi áno, ale zatiaľ nie. Na otázku, či to zvažujem,
alebo či to chcem nejako rozšíriť ďalej, no... aj áno, ale tak závisí asi od tých konkrétnych
nejakých okolností, že... uhm... aj od situácie alebo čo, no proste neviem. Ja to vnímam tak, že
keď sa človek cíti tak, že s týmto človekom by to bolo v pohode, tak... tak nejako to tak
spontánne príde. Akože nemám to nejako tak naplánované, alebo čo, že nerozmýšľal som
nejako nad tým tak plánovite vôbec. Mne sa stalo, že som sa na to pracovisko dostal tak, že ma
tam zavolala jedna kamoška, najprv tak na nejakú brigádu a tak, takže zas tá kamoška ma
poznala, tá o mne vedela a potom tak zopár ďalším ľuďom, ktorých som tam spoznal som sa
vy-out-oval postupne, no a uvidím, že čo postupne prinesie čas, alebo ako. Myslím si, že teraz
je taký čas, dosť izolácie, toho, že sa ľudia málo stretávajú, uhm, čiže s tými ľuďmi, s ktorými
sa stretávam napriek obmedzeniam, tých nie je až tak veľa, a tam s niektorými som vy-outovaný a s niektorými neviem či sa to proste posunie ďalej.
65
I: Hmm, prečo myslíte? Respektíve, keď... k tomu môžeme sa vrátiť neskôr teda...
R: Akože kľudne sa pýtajte, že... že... neviem odhadnúť reakcie niektorých ľudí, a asi nie som
si úplne tak... uhm... neviem či mám úplne také sebavedomie, alebo že... Akože kým to nie je
nevyhnutné, alebo kým to nie je... neviem, neviem, som tak... nejak neisto v tom.
I: K tomu by som sa potom ešte vrátil, lebo tam by som sa potom ešte viacej spýtal okolo toho,
ale keď ten coming out, ten čiastočný k tým ľuďom, pred ktorými ste vy-out-ovaný... uhm...
ako často musíte dávať coming out, alebo ako často ste sa vy-out-ovali na pracovisku? Či to
bola jednorazová vec, či to musíte robiť každý mesiac, dajme tomu, alebo tak...
R: Tak raz keď to už niekto vie, tak potom nejak ten rozhovor sa tak občas okolo toho točí, ale...
Akože potom už s tým nebol problém, alebo proste... Nestalo sa mi, a teda to... uhm... Nestalo
sa mi, že by sa to potom nejako... že by bol s tým nejaký problém alebo niečo, proste.
I: Čiže vaša komunikácia s tými ľuďmi, pred ktorými ste sa vy-out-ovali, sa s nimi nejako
nezmenila, hej?
R: Je bezproblémová. Akože tak väčšinou to sú tí ľudia, čo sú mi tak bližší, ale akože
z viacerých dôvodov.
I: Jasné, ale myslím, že... nemyslím, že či začali teraz nejaké problémy, alebo nejak takto, ale
čisto že či... možno či sa cítite pri nich teraz viacej otvorený, či uvoľnený možno...
R: Áno. Áno. Tak môžem viac povedať aj, uhm, akože určite sa uvoľní tá atmosféra. Akože už
len to, že... že niekde niekto vojde a... zvonka, alebo proste a... tak niečo vybavujeme, a potom
ten človek odíde, a keď si s kolegyňou povieme, že obidvom sa nám páčil, tak akože určite to
je uvoľnenejšia atmosféra, alebo proste... samozrejme potom otočíme list a robíme niečo ďalšie,
ale tak je to také prirodzené, ľudské. Niečo, čo za chvíľu na to už nikto nemyslí, ale... človek
sa tam potom cíti lepšie.
I: Jasné. Jasné. Keď máte tieto kolegyne a taký názov je na to, že ally, že spojenec, máte aj
nejakých LGBT kolegov, alebo kolegyne?
R: Mám, ale teda hovorím, že vzhľadom na tú celú izoláciu, že sme tak v rámci toho nášho tímu
sa stretávame, a teda to v tom tíme sú okrem mňa samé ženy, tak to teda myslím si že dosť aj
nejako určuje ten charakter tých vzťahov, akože... aj keď nechcem skĺznuť do nejakých
stereotypov... uhm... ale v niečom to tak je. No a viem o nejakých LGBT kolegoch na iných
oddeleniach, alebo proste celkovo.
I: Ale nemáte nejaké s... Prepáčte, nekomunikujete s nimi nijako?
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R: Nie. Je to vo forme takých, akože takého šuškania, alebo že takých rečí, že... práveže mňa
to aj mrzí, že... že vo všeobecnosti nemáme nejaké bližšie vzťahy tak cross-teamovo, alebo že...
súvisí to určite aj s... aj s pandémiou a... Neviem, tak nejak, také je to izolované a musím
povedať, že mi to je aj ľúto, že... že sa teda stane, že... ja teda prichádzam do kontaktu, s tým,
že som na HR aj s tým, že keď niekto odchádza, aj teraz nedávno som sa s tým stretol, že ja to
teraz nejakým spôsobom idem zprocesovať, že ten človek odchádza a aj mi to prišlo ľúto, že
nemali sme príležitosť sa nejak tak viac spoznať, teda konkrétne jeden LGBT kolega, takže no...
O niektorých viem aj, ale nikdy nemám nejak tú príležitosť alebo ten priestor. Možno že sa
cítim tak komunikačne ťarbavo v tom. Priznám sa, že dosť veľa zaváži to, že keď človek má
možno nejaké tušenie, alebo niečo že... uhm... tá možnosť toho, že... že oslovím niekoho, kto
je hetero a spôsobím nejakú hanbu tým celým, akože to mi bráni v tom. Akože o niektorých
isto viem, ale keď si človek nie je istý, tak je to blbé.
I: Jasné, ale akože na to sa robievajú aj v zahraničí tie... tie, však ako personalista, alebo HR
človek to viete, tie employee resource groups, akože kde sa ľudia nejako zgrupujú. Tak to by
ste možno aj privítali teda, hej?
R: Hej, ja by som to privítal. Akože neviem si predstaviť, že by som to inicioval, ale ja by som
to privítal. Bolo by to fajn.
I: Hej, uh, ak sa môžem ešte spýtať, tá komunikácia, keď ste spomenuli tieto vaše... tie allies,
respektíve tie vaše... tých vašich spojencov/spojenkyne, tie kolegyne, je nejaká iná oproti vašej
komunikácii s inými heterosexuálnymi kolegyňami, ktorí, napríklad, by neboli títo allies, alebo
by neboli, myslíte, až takí podporovatelia, možno pred ľuďmi, pred ktorými nie ste vy-outovaný. Je tá komunikácia iná?
R: Tak určite, že je iná, že môže byť taká osobnejšia z času na čas, alebo že... že nepracujú
s nejakými nesprávnymi predpokladmi. Keď... keď potom kolegyňa, pred ktorou nie som vyout-ovaný, keď niečo sme sa rozprávali, keď ona niečo potom začne hovoriť, že... že no a keď
budeš mať deti a keď sa oženíš a potom toto a ja som ju ne... v tej situácii nezastavil, alebo
proste neopravoval som ju, tak potom nie je tá komunikácia autentická, alebo nie v tomto. Hoci
nedá sa povedať, že by tie vzťahy boli horšie, alebo že... čiastočne v tom vidím aj generation
gap, uhm, že určite je to jednoduchšie čím... čím bližšie je niekto ku mne vekovo, aj keď to nie
je totálne pravidlo, ale je viac menej to tak funguje.
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I: Tam... tam aj smerujeme, ja som to už vlastne hovoril, už som nejak avizoval, že by som sa
to išiel pýtať, a to je že... ako vy rozoznávate allies na pracovisku, respektíve týchto spojencov,
alebo kvázi ľudí, pri ktorých viete, že sa môžete vy-out-ovať a môžete s nimi byť nejako sám
sebou. Ako by ste ich vedeli akoby rozoznávať. A hovoríte teda, že viete rozoznávať možno
podľa... na základe toho veku. Keď sú vám vekovo bližší, že vtedy sa cítite bezpečnejšie.
Takisto ste spomenuli, že čo sa týka ženských kolektívov možno.
R: Tak aj na základe ich nejakých postojov. Keď... keď o niečom rozprávajú, alebo... Tak
celkovo, na základe ich svetonázoru, podľa toho čo ich vnímam, že viem že nie sú nejakí...
neviem... uhm... že by nepodporovali Alianciu za rodinu alebo proste tak človek to vidí asi kde
má... kto sa asi kde približne nachádza. Možno ešte keď spravím ešte takú miernu odbočku, ja
mám taký ešte bočný job. Teraz mi až napadlo, že to vlastne môže byť zaujímavé pre tento
rozhovor... uhm... kde sa pohybujem v cirkevnom prostredí. A... teraz len totižto ako to všetko
hovorím tak mi to tak nabieha, že to je niečo, kde je to úplne diametrálne iné celé všetko.
I: Kľudne, kľudne môžete aj špecifikovať v akom...
R: Neviem, že či sa vám to teraz... či vám to úplne nezamiešam do takého gulášu, že sa v tom
stratí nejaký...
I: Vôbec, môže to byť ešte zaujímavejšie, kľudne ak poviete a o... o čo ide vlastne?
R:
No,
som
kostolník.
I: Kostolník, jasné... Kostolník si pozriem, lebo to fakt neviem, ako sa povie po anglicky...
R: Asi sacristian.
I: Hej? Sacristian... Okej, kľudne to môžete porovnať, aj keď asi budem tušiť, ale pre... čisto
pre záznam môžete porovnať kľudne.
R: No je to v niečom podobné, že sú ľudia, s ktorými som tam blízko a tak aj povedzme si
z nejakého takého že vedenia, alebo... uhm... No s ľuďmi, s ktorými dobre vychádzam tak
pochopiteľne tá téma je... je úplne otvorená, slobodná a všetko, k niektorým, tým že sa poznáme
roky, roky rokúce, dávno predtým ako ja som sa stal tým kostolníkom tak... uhm... niektorým
som sa vy-out-oval keď som mal 14 rokov, akože... čiže je to úplne iné keď niekto vás už teda
taký čas pozná a... zase, no keď človek vie, že v pohode, tak je to v pohode. Keď potom na...
stretávam ľudí, ktorí sú... uhm... o ktorých viem, že majú názory... uhm... homofóbne, tak to
neotváram zbytočne. No nie som ja taký... neviem, niekto by to možno považoval za zbabelé,
alebo za nejaké alibistické, ale zatiaľ sa necítim byť v takom režime, že idem každému... idem
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robiť osvetu a že teraz každému to otrieskam o hlavu. Možno že príde nejaká taká situácia alebo
čo. Ale je fakt, že sú ľudia, s ktorými o tom proste nehovorím, že... a zase inak tam platí to, že...
je to aj o tom, že do akej miery tie vzťahy sú vôbec formálne a do akej sú osobné, alebo proste...
Čím sú osobnejšie tie vzťahy, tak pochopiteľne keď s niekým zdieľam svoj život, alebo aj
nejaké súkromné záležitosti, tak tým väčšia je pravdepodobnosť, že sa aj vy-out-ujem, lebo
však už s tým potom všetko súvisí.
I: A keď to môžem tak zhrnúť, tak vlastne rozoznávate týchto spojencov, respektíve ľudí, ktorí
by vás podporovali alebo nepodporovali na základe jednak, akože možno pohlavia, veku
a politických nejakých svetonázorov, plus súkromného vzťahu, akože medzi nimi vlastne ako...
ako koľko toho zdieľate zo súkromného života, hej?
R: Hmm.
I: Okej a viete to aj čisto na základe nejakej komunikácie na pracovisku zistiť, že aha, tento
človek by asi nebol až taký tolerantný, alebo tento človek by ma práveže v pohode bral
a toleroval akože a akceptoval?
R: Niekedy je také signifikantné, že do akej miery ľudia žijú inými stereotypmi. Že ja keď
niekoho počujem škaredo hovoriť o Rómoch napríklad, pre mňa je to určitý signál, že je to
niekto, kto má proste niečo zaškatuľkované a ťažko mu to vyhovoríte a necítim sa byť vždy
úplne taký ten ľadoborec v tom, alebo taký ten prvolezec že... uhm... Obrátiť sa na niekoho,
že... že ty máš nejaký stereotypný obraz o gejoch a ja ti ho teraz idem na základe svojho života
a svojho príbehu ako... akože nejako zmeniť a druhá vec je inak, že... Ako ja obdivujem... uhm...
ja obdivujem ľudí, ktorí to robia. Akože to je super. Na druhej strane, mne v tom trochu bráni
aj to, že... uhm... o čo to ja mám oprieť proste, lebo ja nemám ešte taký za sebou príbeh, že
teraz, uhm... Keby som bol nejakú dlhšiu dobu v nejakom stabilnom vzťahu, tak to asi vnímam
inak. Ale mám to oprieť... čo vla... hej, inými slovami, čo vlastne znamená to, že som gej? Že...
že keď to rozmeníme na drobné, že čím sa to prejavuje, alebo že... ako keby nemám to čím tak
demonštrovať.
I: Hej.
R: Vzhľadom na to, že som single.
I: Jasné. Jasné. Chápem, čo myslíte. Okej, to mi akože dosť pekne, akože nejak vykreslilo aj
tú... tú vašu odpoveď celé, a keď by ste k tomu nemali nič čo dodať, tak by som išiel na poslednú
otázku v rámci tohto. A to je, že či ste osobne mali nejakú skúsenosť s hocijakou formou
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heterosexistickej diskriminácie, alebo nejakých hrozieb? To môže byť hocičo úplne, od
heteronormativity, ktorú ste už, viac menej už spomínali, keď tá kolegyňa niečo vlastne
predpokladala, že deti nejaké a tak ďalej, cez násilný coming out, cez nadávky, vyhrážanie sa,
nevhodné vtipy, ohováranie, ostraci... ostrakizmus, hocičo takéto.
R: Hmm... No je to akože silno prítomné, myslím si, že tak všeobecne v ľuďoch v tých dobrých,
ako keby nevinných narážkach. Neviem, akože snažím sa zvyšovať si nejako prah citlivosti,
lebo však človeka nemôže v takom každodennom fungovaní každá taká poznámka nejako
rozhádzať, alebo teda môže, ale proste, k čomu by to viedlo? Proste snažím sa tak nejako voči
tomu obrniť, menej to pripúšťať, uhm... Teraz mi napadlo, mali sme veľmi zaujímavú situáciu
keď k nám nastupoval jeden verejne známy gej, ktorý si do takého dotazníka osobného vypísal,
že je v manželstve, pričom... pričom... no nejako jednoducho z toho vyplynulo podľa... Proste
muselo z toho nejako vyplynúť, že on je podľa slovenských zákonov slobodný, lebo že však,
hej, keď sa... neviem, výpis z registra trestov vidí, tak tam je ten slovenský status
uvedený...uhm... proste vyplynulo, že... že to manželstvo musel uzavrieť v inej krajine
a s mužom, tak vtedy sa takéto poznámky, vyrojili, z ktorých, akože, ja som si nebol istý. Preto
som sa aj pred tou kolegyňou napríklad, s ktorou sme to riešili, nevy-out-oval, lebo ja som si
z tých jej reakcií nebol istý, že či čo, že či ona mávne rukou potom a ideme ďalej, alebo že či
teraz... Prišlo mi to, že... Nesie zo sebou proste nejaké predsudky, ktoré akože... ako keby to
bolo také pasívne agresívne, taká tá jej reakcia. Mne to prišlo zvláštne. Ja sa dosť často stret...
akože keď by sme hovorili, že čo priamo na mňa, tak ja som sa dosť často stretával s tým, že
ma oslovovali v ženskom rode v telefóne a myslím si, že to teda súvisí s farbou môjho hlasu,
čo kvázi nemusí súvisieť s orientáciou, alebo neviem. Toto mám také, že to s... a to aj keď sa
pozrieme mimo pracoviska, akože toto mám celoživotnú záležitosť, že... že veľmi rád
telefonujem s ľuďmi, s ktorými sa už poznám a tak a keď mám telefonovať niekomu
neznámemu, tak sa tomu snažím vyhýbať práve kvôli tomu. Lebo potom sa mi aj stáva, že mi
niekto napíše, alebo mi povie, že... že telefonoval som s vašou kolegyňou, alebo že vaša
sekretárka niečo povedala, alebo že wtf, že... Fakt sa mi to stáva často, alebo že niekde som aj...
s takýmto posmechom som sa stretol aj v škole, dávno, alebo že niekde proste v nejakom tábore,
že... To je niečo, čo mám úplne, že... uhm... naj... tak najviac spojené s tým hlasom. A to bolo
aj tak najzraňujúcejšie, že to, ako keby, odštartovalo potom... Pamätám si z jedného tábora, čo
som mohol mať, ja neviem, 12 rokov, ale to bol úplne taký silný zážitok, že normálne sa do
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mňa niekto pustil, že... že... že či som teplý, a že či mi... akože dvanásťročného chlapca, ktorý
nemohol mať akože vybudovanú nejakú odolnosť. Jednak že... a spájalo sa to s tým... jedna
otázka bola, že či som... či som teplý a druhá, že či mi odsekli gule keď som bol malý, takto
doslova to odznelo a bolo to akoby spojené ako keby toto... tieto dve veci súviseli. A si pamätám,
že do mňa taká... akože toľko negatívnych emócií takých vošlo, že ja som toho človeka oblial
niečím, čo bolo proste na stole, že som mu to akože do ksichtu chrstol a že to bolo vlastne jediný
spôsob, akým som sa v tom momente vedel brániť. Ale takých situácií, a keď som aj potom už
nejako nebránil a proste som to nejako prešiel... tým ďalej, ale takých situácií bolo veľmi veľa.
Alebo proste že ja napríklad... ja si myslím, že vystupujem celkom nenápadne. Akože alebo
neprovokujem ľudí niečím, alebo nie je to programové, že by som si povedal, že ja vás nejdem
provokovať, ale proste pre mňa oblečenie, v ktorom chodím, napríklad, nie je ničím špecifické,
alebo neodlišuje sa od bežnej spoločnosti, alebo že... Preto hovorím, že hlas, alebo niekedy sa
mi stalo, že niekto napodobňoval moju gestikuláciu, alebo proste... uhm...
I: Jak myslíte „napodobňoval gestikuláciu“, ak môžete špecifikovať?
R: No v takom posmešnom duchu, že... že ako keby moje vystupovanie nebolo dostatočne
maskulínne. Či... či už ten hlas, alebo nejak celkovo, že ako sa prejavujem. Pritom hovorím, že
to ako vystupujem, akože snažím sa, myslím, že som sám sebou, že to, že prídem niekam
v modrej košeli nie je to, že chcem zapadnúť do heteronormatívnej spoločnosti, ale preto, že mi
to tak proste vyhovuje, že... uhm... ako keby nekalkulujem s tými vecami nejako extrémne, že
nerozmýšľam, že ako nepobúriť, alebo že ako pobúriť. Ale je pravda, že... že keď sa hovorí
o nejakom... uhm... nejakej väčšej vizibilite LGBT ľudí, aj teraz so sedemnástym májom
v súvislosti, tak... Toto je už niečo, čo by ma absolútne vy-out-ovalo, keby som prišiel
v nejakom... s nejakým symbolom dúhovým, alebo s niečím, čo zas... čomu sa zatiaľ bránim,
tak neviem, no... Ale je to otázka, lebo... lebo... napríklad som začal aj... uhm... No súvisí to
s tým súkromím, že napríklad na Facebooku tiež nemám, že všetkých z práce, alebo ako tiež
tam mám len... len takých ľudí, ktorí sú nejak tak že bližšie a tam som už napríklad niečo postoval také... uhm... z čoho teda sa dá usúdiť moja orientácia, alebo proste...
I: Hej. Ak sa inak môžem ešte vrátiť na začiatok, čo ste... čo ste spomínali toho kandidáta, ktorý
sa vlastne ku vám uchádzal, boli tie poznámky tej kolegyne, môžete ich trošku priblížiť viacej,
že o čom to bolo?
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R: Pamätám si ten môj pocit z toho, že bol taký neurčitý, že vlastne čo si ona o tom myslí, alebo
že skonštatovala ako keby, že „ten je jasný“, alebo niečo, že čo to znamená, že to je také totálne
neurčité, že... ako keby myslím si, že v ideálnej spoločnosti by sa nad tým buď nikto
nepozastavil, alebo by niekto povedal naopak, že je blbé, že to manželstvo museli uzatvoriť
v zahraničí, lebo tu sa to nedá, ale teda to jej vyjadrovanie bolo také neurčité, také... ale hovorím,
ja som skôr za tým negatívne veci vnímal a videl. Ale zase nechcem, aby to vyznelo tak... toto
bol tento konkrétny prípad. Ale potom som zažil aj také veľmi podporujúce, akože od tých ľudí,
s ktorými... akože pred ktorými som sa vy-out-oval, akože potom aj sa mi stane... no je to...
Niekedy je to také až úsmevne ťarbavé, ako sa vlastne snažia niektorí hetero ľudia akože
povedať, že... svoj posledný zážitok s iným gejom, ktorý... ktorého vo svojom živote stretli, ako
keby to bolo, že teraz ja sa kamoším s každým gejom na Slovensku, alebo... niekedy je to také
úsmevné, ale človek za tým vidí, že je to myslené dobre, toľko razy, že to už podľa toho tónu,
alebo podľa toho kontextu človek vie, že...
I: Nie je to také, že by si vás exotizovali nejak, že by aj zachádzali do súkromia, alebo by boli
nejak veľmi zvedaví?
R: Nie, nie, ale myslím, že to súvisí aj s tým, že sme v Bratislave a že teda hovorím, že ako
kopec ľudí už tu je otvorených a poznám a tak... Pre mňa... musím inak povedať, že pre mňa je
v rámci vzťahov na pracovisku a tejto témy, pre mňa je niekedy ťažké to, že neviem odlíšiť...
uhm... že či niekto je... uhm... hetero s otvorenými názormi a proste podporujúci, alebo ten
spojenec, alebo či... či patrí k LGBT ľuďom. Tak toto je niekedy akože... prelomiť ten nejaký
prvý ľad toho, že... alebo, že dostať sa k tomu a fakt, aby sa človek nedostal do nejakej, teda
nezávideniahodnej situácie, to je... to je náročné, že... myslím že toto dosť ovplyvňuje tie... tie
vzťahy. Pre mňa by bolo jednoduchšie, keby sa nejakým teambuilding-om, alebo niečím keby
sme to proste viac tak... uhm... keby sa viac tak niektoré tie vzťahy otvorili. Čo si dávam teda
do svojho súkromného to-do listu, že mal by som asi aj ja na tom viac pracovať, že proste
poznávať ľudí, alebo proste byť otvorenejší k nim. Aj keď pre mňa je to v niečom náročné
a práve to súvisí aj s tým, že tá taká zmiešaná identita, že keď človek patrí aj... uhm... k cirkvi
a zároveň je gej, tak je to na Slovensku ako keby... veľmi málo ľudí to považuje za zlučiteľné.
Tak ako keby potom človek nikde nie je dostatočne doma, aspoň teda ja to tak vnímam zo... zo
svojho... svojich skúseností, že vlastne pre ľudí v cirkvi... pre mnohých ľudí v cirkvi nie ste ako
keby dostatočne stopercentný. Nehovorím, že pre nikoho, ale určite je to prostredie, s ktorým
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sa... v ktorom sa s tým dá extrémne často stretnúť. A myslím si, že je málo takých prostredí,
kde by to bolo takto vyšpičkované. No a potom, ale aj naopak to funguje v... medzi LGBT
ľuďmi sa cítim potom ako exot, že patrím k nejakému kostolu. Pritom je to... pritom k tomu
kostolu patrím v podstate odjakživa, nie je žiadnym... nie som tam po nijakým nátlakom, som
tam dobrovoľne, akože nie... nikto ma tam nedrží. Som tam, pretože tam chcem byť.
I: Chápem. Chápem. A keď ešte je... ja sa ospravedlňujem, to bude možno znovu trošičku
zachádzať k tomu, čo ja potrebujem od vás, aby ste mi povedali, alebo aby ste sa vyjadrili
k čomu...
R: V pohode, akože...
I: Ah... keď znova sa vrátim ešte raz ku tým situáciám, a myslím aj tie narážky tej kolegyne,
myslím aj to, čo práve na vás bolo nejako cielené, tie veci, čo si napríklad robili posmešky
z chovania, alebo z... uhm... z gestikulácie, na tieto všetky skúsenosti ste ako reagovali?
Respektíve čo ste akosi... čo ste robili, ako ste konali po týchto situáciách? Hovorili ste, že ste
sa viacej utvrdili v tom, že napríklad pred tou kolegyňou nebudete sa zatiaľ out-ovať a zmenilo
sa niečo ešte v rámci tej komunikácie s tými ľuďmi, ktorí tieto veci robili na pracovisku, alebo...
ako ste vlastne reagovali na to?
R: No na pracovisku je to v podstate... uhm... no väčšinou som na to nereagoval. Akože bolo
mi to nepríjemné a nechal som takú situáciu odísť proste. A inak zaujímavé je to ale pracovisko
je miesto, kde je to ešte najľahšie, v podstate. Lebo je to iné, keď to zažijete niekde na... vo
voľnom čase, že idete niekam na nejaký výlet, tábor, na nejaké podujatie niekde, niečo kde
interagujú ľudia ako keby tak... Predsa to pracovné prostredie v niečom má určité mantinely,
alebo proste keď sa na to pozriem z toho HR pohľadu, že keď... uhm... niekto je zamestnanec,
alebo keď niekto je uchádzač, ten človek k vám musí správať slušne vo vlastnom záujme, lebo
sa chce u vás zamestnať, alebo chce u vás ďalej pracovať, proste, uhm, nikto nechce nasrať
personálne, akože chápete, že... že ste v inej pozícií, ako keď si kupujete zeleninu na trhu
a prejde niekto okolo, kto... komu sa zdáte, že niečo si potrebuje do vás kopnúť, alebo čo, že
nemáte tam tú nej... alebo niekde v autobuse, alebo proste v... sú situácie, kde nemáte ako keby
žiadnu tú... tú pozíciu, ktorá by vám niečo zabezpečovala. Ale napríklad ja keď som telefonoval
nejakým uchádzačom, že príďte na pohovor vtedy a vtedy, tak oni chcú u nás pracovať, čiže
vlastne je v ich záujme, aby... uhm... neboli nejakí... mnohí sa, keď... keď hovoríte, že ako som
reagoval, uhm, tak niektorí sa vlastne aj zháčili, keď ja som, neviem, či to teraz aj priamo s tým
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súvisí, ale o tom hlase, že... že ja keď som ich teda uviedol na pravú mieru, tak mnohí sa aj
začali ospravedlňovať, alebo čo...
I: Skôr myslím to, čo si z vás robili posmech, aj také to, že vás napodobňovali, alebo tak s tou
kolegyňou, že ako sa vám zmenila potom komunikácia s tými ľuďmi, ak vôbec.
R: Tak bola určite väčšieho odstupu, formálnejšia, akože minimalizovaná na to, čo je
nevyhnutné. Akože v tej... v tej robote v podstate asi... tam som mal šťastie, alebo mám tam
šťastie. Akože napriek tomu, čo hovorím, že s niektorými ľuďmi je to také otázne, tak tam som
sa nikdy nestretol s takou nejakou situáciou, ktorá by bola... uhm... úplne vyhrotene homofóbna,
alebo nejaká. Buď to bolo viac menej neutrálne, alebo to bolo len mierne negatívne. Akože
hovorím že skôr s nejakými negatívnymi týmito situáciami sa človek stretne v inom prostredí
ako na pracovisku. Neviem či som... kľudne ma akože vracajte, lebo neviem, či som úplne na
to odpovedal, ale rozmýšľam nad tým, že... uhm... Niekedy je to napríklad aj... aj k tým... k tým
že... že nejaká by bola teda tá zamestnanecká skupina, alebo že niekedy je to... aj pre mňa to
bolo náročné, že ako si napríklad nájsť, veď to som aj hovoril, že sa mi nepodarilo mnohokrát,
že ako si nájsť nejakú cestu k... uhm... iným LGBT kolegom, že vlastne... neviem, no je to také
otázne, že... Akože je to... je to takto keď sa nad tým zamýšľam, tak je to viac otázok, ako...
viac vecí mám takých nejasných alebo otáznych ako zodpovedaných, alebo nejako definitívne
vykryštalizovaných.
I: To je úplne v poriadku a akože ja som so svojimi otázkami skončil, ale keby ste chceli ešte
niečo k niečomu dodať, čo vám napadlo alebo sa spýtať, tak... tak pokojne, máte priestor.
R: Rozmýšľam, že... asi som mal naozaj šťastie v tom, že keď som sa naozaj niekomu vy-outoval, aj nap... aj v tom cirkevnom prostredí, tak som mal väčšinou šťastie lebo tu som si to
dostatočne dobre zvážil, že či ten človek je... či tá reakcia toho človeka nebude nepriaznivá,
alebo nejaká nepriateľská. Takže, ako keby nestalo sa mi, že by som sa netrafil, kvázi že... tam...
tam si mys... to boli skôr tie pozitívne veci len. Ale je to... je to náročné a určite v tom... v tom
kostolnom prostredí je to náročnejšie, ako v tom... v tom normálnom pracovnom.
I: Napríklad prečo?
R: Lebo hoci sme... uhm... oficiálne taký že liberálny kostol, alebo ako by som to povedal, tak
nikdy nevidíte do hláv tých jednotlivých ľudí a čo si pomyslia že to, že je oficiálne stanovisko
nejaké, tak ešte neznamená, že... Proste veľa ľudí má, aspoň ja to tak vnímam, že veľa ľudí má
taký názor, že všetko je... že gejovia sú fajn, keď... kým... dokiaľ nepochodujú na Pride, alebo
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teda s tým som sa často stretol, že... a to je také niečo, že čo vyplynie medzi rečou, že... že je
Pride a na druhý deň sa... sa stretnete s ľuďmi v kostole a teraz je to nejaká téma, lebo... lebo
potom je aj to zhromaždenie tých... tých Aliancia za rodinu a podobné. A teda niekto ohrnie
nosom alebo proste... Stalo sa mi, že to bolo aj v kázni, ale v tej kázni to bolo pozitívne, akože
v dobrom zmysle slova mienené, lenže niektorí ľudia mali proste potrebu na to ako... že sa
pohoršiť nad tou kázňou ešte potom, že preboha ako toto niekto môže hovoriť v tom kostole,
alebo že... Neviem tu, mne to pripadá, že my sme tak blízko a zároveň ako keby tak ďaleko
tomu, že... že hneď tu v Rakúsku za hranicou v Burgenlande a v týchto najbližších... uhm...
krajinách je napríklad aj biskup evanjelickej cirkvi, ktorý je otvorený gej, ktorého zvoli
normálne na... na tom... tej synode, kde ho volia tak... uhm... ho zvolili s tým, že už vtedy bol
vy-out-ovaný a jeho kvázi protikandidáti boli hetero muži, otcovia rodín a tak a proste ho zvolili
a to je hneď tu. Takže teraz je... možno že tá Bratislava je taká, že inak na tom, ako keď človek
ide niekam do regiónov a tam je to proste ne... potom... tam je to iné. A tam je to úplne otvorene
potom homofóbne častokrát. Možno, že to zase nesúvisí úplne priamo s našou témou, ale keď
som sa pri dobrovoľníctve s tým stretol... Ako dobrovoľník som bol viac rokov aktívny
a v podstate ešte som a pohybovali sme sa tak na strednom a východnom Slovensku a... no
a tam je to potom už poznať úplne. Úplne evidentne, keď tam... Neviem, možno že si to niekedy
aj namýšľam, alebo že to vidím horšie ako to je, ale často to tam je. Ja som potom aj nejako tak,
keď bolo treba niečo vybaviť, tak som poslal radšej niekoho iného miesto seba, alebo proste...
A je to také zvláštne, lebo... lebo v rámci takého toho šepkania alebo takých tých rečí. Ktoré
niekde tak existujú, tak sa človek dozvie, že... že kto všetko je nevy-out-ovaný a vlastne
funguje... ja to vnímam tak, ako keby, že akú škodu robia títo ľudia, alebo teda dobre... Ja keby
som sa hneď teraz vy-out-oval každému koho stretnem, keby som povedal na pracovisku aj
v súkromí, aj niekde, že... že veľkými žiarivými písmenami, tak akože ja asi žiadnu veľkú
revolúciu na Slovensku nespravím. Akože áno, tak od človeka k človeku sa dá postupovať, ale
keby toto spravil niekto verejne činný, alebo niekto významný a keby takých ľudí bolo viac,
tak by sa niečo pohlo si myslím. Akože možno žijem v nejakej utópii, ale myslím si, že by sa
to pohlo, že by to už ľudia nemohli ďalej ignorovať, len toto proste. Na toto zatiaľ ako keby
nemáme.
I: Áno, no, akože ja to nejak aj zhodnocujem v svojej práci trošku, že ako sme na tom štatisticky
a čo sa týka celkovo postojov spoločnosti a ako sa to možno odzrkadľuje aj v tej komunikácii
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na pracovisku potom pre tých ľudí. Čiže toto bude potom aj nejakú úlohu aj hrať toto všetko,
takže... Takže tak. Akože informácia a skúsenosti robia veľmi veľa pre ľudí, takže pokiaľ je
niekto otvorený tomu, prijímať nové skúsenosti a prijímať informácie, tak kľudne. Problém je
len to, že na Slovensku, ako bolo aj pri očkovaniach a neviem čo všetko bol pre ľudí častokrát
názor viac než informácia, takže tak.
R: Jedna vec je názor a informácia a potom je aj skúsenosť a... Akože teraz trochu of topic, ale...
ale ja si napríklad myslím, že ja som... ja mám aj v rodine nejakých vedcov a ja som to od
začiatku bral, že samozrejme sa riadime tým, že čo hovoria lekári a čo hovoria vedci, ale keď
zrazu poznáte niekoho, kto po očkovaní dostal trombózu, tak zbystriete, lebo máte osobnú
skúsenosť, poznáte toho človeka. Ja som sa takú správu dozvedel dnes ráno, takže... Tiež potom
si človek kladie otázku, že mohli všelijako vyvinúť vakcínu, ale keď niekto konkrétny, koho
poznáte, tak je zrazu v ohrození zdravotnom, teda neviem presne, že... že presne do akej miery,
ale tak proste je to trombóza a človek nevie, že... že čo. Určite to nejak ovplyvňuje... Inak ja si
aj myslím, že tak... že teraz vyzniem ako absolútna konzerva, ale aj v tých takých, akože, v tých
vzťahoch na pracovisku a LGBT, zase len ľudia, ktorí sú väčší exhibicionisti, alebo viac
extrovertní, alebo viac... viac... uhm... Neviem ani ako to pomenovať proste viac LGBTviditeľní, alebo proste niekedy si myslím, že... uhm... LGBT ľuďom nerobia dobré meno. Akože
s týmto s... Napríklad to je prípad niektorých tých... tých... mám takého kolegu, s ktorým som
napríklad nenašiel spoločnú reč, alebo respektíve ani som ju nehľadal na základe toho, že ako
on nejako vystupuje, že ja mám tiež nejaké prestrelené očakávania alebo čo, že... uhm... mám
nejakú predstavu o tom, že čo je slušné, alebo vôbec, je to také zvláštne, že keď vlastne tú
identitu definuje sexualita. Sexualita je podľa mňa niečo také intímne alebo osobné, niečo
osobné, čo nezdieľať úplne každý s každým, alebo, že... Neviem úplne presne ako toto vyjadriť,
ale... uhm... Napokon ľudia poznajú.... ako tá väčšinová spoločnosť a to aj na tom pracovisku,
pozná tých LGBT kolegov buď tých, ktorí, neviem, muži, ktorí nemajú dostatočne maskulínne
vystupovanie, alebo potom tí, ktorí sú absolútne že... ako keby som povedal, že šoumensky
založení. Proste... uhm... ako keby každým coulom to dávajú najavo. Tak ja by som bol rád,
keby ľudia mali... uhm... alebo ja si myslím, že by bolo fajn, keby ľudia mali o sexuálnych
menšinách takú predstavu, že to sú tiež slušní ľudia. Neviem, či som sa dostatočne jasne vyjadril,
ale že... uhm.. ako to je pre mňa dosť podstatné, že....
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I: Iste, iste, ale však ono to je dosť aj o tom, že čo... čo... často sa hovorí, že prečo sa my vlastne
nejakým spôsobom vyčleňujeme, ale otázka je, že či my nie sme nejakým spôsobom
vyčleňovaní tým, že prečo nespadáme do nejakých presných noriem toho, čo je presne
maskulínne typicky pre biologického muža, čo je nejak typicky... feminínne veci a tak ďalej a...
nie každý do toho úplne zapadá a je jasné, že každý máme nejaký pomer maskulínnosti
a feminínnosti a možno len my, ktorí sme LGBT ľudia to vieme, nemáme nejaký problém s tým,
že to nejak prijať vlastne, že... Jasné, tak ďakujem veľmi pekne za rozhovor, ja by som prestal
nahrávať.
Respondent Nr. 8 (partial translation)
I: ...now. Ok. The first question is kinda expected, and that is, had you, or do you consider
having a coming out at workplace?
R: Well, uhm, I can’t give an exact answer to this, as it is not that, like 100%, but I am partially
out at the workplace, uhm, with some... a couple colleagues, who are closer to me, so yes, with
them, but not yet. On the question, if I’m considering it or if I want to further spread it, well...
kinda yes, but it also depends on those specific circumstances, that... uhm... also on the situation
or so, I just don’t know. The way I perceive it is, that if a person feels, like that it could be all
right with this person, then... then it would come somewhat spontaneously. Like I don’t have it
any planned or so, I haven’t really thought about it somehow on plan at all. It happened to me,
that I got to the workplace when my friend called me there, at first for some part-time job and
so, so then the friend knew me, she knew about me and then I gradually came out to a bunch of
other people who I met there, well, and I’ll see what the time will bring gradually, or what.
I think, that now is such time, a lot of isolation, people barely meeting others, uhm, so with the
people, with whom I meet despite of the restrictions, there’s not many of them, and there I’m
out to some and to the others, I don’t know whether it would just progress any further.
[...]
I: …how often do you have to come out, or how often did you come out at workplace? If it was
a one-time issue, or if you must do it, let’s say, every month or so...
R: Well, if someone knows it already, then the conversation sometimes sort of revolves around
it, but…[...] It hasn’t happened to me that… that there would be any problem with that or
something.
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I: So, your communication with those people to whom you came out hasn’t changed at all, right?
R: It’s unproblematic. Like, those are mostly people who are closer to me, like for various
reasons.
I: [...] …maybe if you now feel more open with them, relaxed maybe.
R: Yes. Yes. Well, I can say that more, uhm, like the atmosphere loosens up for sure. Like even
when... when someone walks in... from outside or simply... we’re working on something, then
the person leaves and we say with my colleague, that we liked him both, so it is a looser
atmosphere or simply... of course, then we turn the page and do something else, but it’s so
natural, humane. Something nobody even thinks about in a moment, but... then it feels better.
I: Sure. Sure. When you have these colleagues, there’s a term ally, an ally, do you also have
some LGBT colleagues?
R: I do, but as I’m saying, considering the whole isolation, we meet as a team, which, except
for me is formed by women, so I think that it also determines the character of the relationships,
like... even though I don’t want to delve into some stereotypes... uhm... but in some cases it’s
like that. Well, and I know about some LGBT colleagues in other departments, or simply in
general.
I: But do you have any... Sorry, do you somehow communicate with them?
R: No. It’s in form of some, like some gossip or talks, that... I’m just sorry that... that we don’t
have any closer cross-team relationships in general [...] I admit, it weighs the fact, that one has
a hunch or something that... uhm... the possibility of... that I would address somebody who is
straight and would cause some shame with that, like that restricts me from doing that. Like
I know about some for sure, but if one isn’t sure, it sucks.
I: Sure, like they also do abroad those... those, well you as a personalist or an HR person know
that those employee resource groups, like where people form groups somehow. So, would you
welcome something like that?
R: Yeah, I’d welcome that. Like, I can’t imagine initiating it, but I’d welcome that. It’d be fine.
I: [...] your allies, the colleagues, is it any different to the communication with other
heterosexual colleagues, who, for instance, wouldn’t be these “allies”, or wouldn’t be, in your
opinion, that much of supporters, maybe with people to whom you haven’t come out yet. Is the
communication different?
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R: Well, sure, it is different, it can be more personal from time to time or that... that they don’t
work with some wrong assumptions. When... then, when my colleague to whom I haven’t come
out yet, when we were talking about something, when she then starts saying that... that well,
and when you’ll have children and get married and then this and I didn’t... stop her in that
situation or simply didn’t correct her, then the communication isn’t authentic, or not in this.
Even if it can’t be said that the relationships would be worse, or that... partially, I also see it as
a generation gap, uhm, that it is certainly simpler the... the closer someone is to me in age, even
though it’s not an absolute rule, but so it works more or less.
I: [...] how do you recognize allies at workplace, or the people, with whom you know, that you
can come out and somehow be yourself [...]
R: Well, even based on some of their attitudes. When... when they’re talking about something
or... In general, based on their worldview, on how I perceive them, that they’re such... I don’t
know... uhm... that they wouldn’t support the Aliancia za rodinu9 or simply that one sees where
they have...
[...]
R: Well, it is similar in some ways, that people that are close to me there, also, let’s say from
the management or... uhm... Well, with people who I go along well with, the topic is... it is
entirely open, free and everything, with some of them, we know each other for years, years and
years, long before I became a sacristian, so... uhm... I came out some of them when I was 14
years old, so... so it’s completely different, when somebody knows you for some time and...
also, well, when one knows that it’s all right, it’s all right. Then, when I... meet people, who
are... uhm... of whom I know they have opinions that are... uhm... homophobic, I don’t
unnecessarily open it. Well, I’m not that... I don’t know, someone might see it all as cowardly
or somewhat alibistic, but I don’t feel to be in that regime that I go to everyone... to do the
edification and that I would bang it on everyone’s head now. Maybe when that situation comes
or so. But the fact is that there are people with whom I just don’t speak about it, that... and
otherwise, it works like... it’s also about to what measure are the relationships even formal and
to what measure are they personal, or just... The more personal the relationships, then,
9
Aliancia za rodinu: Alliance for Family, Slovak conservative group supported by evangelical US groups that
initiated a referendum in 2014 attempting to restrict same-sex couples from adopting children, entering marriage
and trying to ban sexual education on schools
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understandably, when I share my life or my personal things with somebody, the more likely I
also am to come out, because it also relates to that then.
[...]
R: Sometimes it’s significant, to what extent do people live by other stereotypes. If I hear
someone talking ugly about Roma people, for example, it’s a certain signal for me that it’s
someone who thinks in boxes and it’s hard to reason with them and I don’t feel like the
icebreaker in that all the time, or the first climber, that... uhm... Lean on to someone who... if
you have some stereotypical image of gays and I’m going to, based on my life and my story,
like... to somehow change it and the second thing is, that... Like I admire... uhm... I admire
people who do that. Like, that’s great. On the other side, I’m somewhat limited with... uhm...
what should simply I base it on, because I don’t have that much of a story behind me, that now,
uhm... If I were for some longer time in a stable relationship, I would maybe perceive it
differently. But should I base it on... what... yeah, in other words, what does it actually mean,
that I’m gay? If... if we look deeper into it, how does it manifest, or that... like there is no way
for me to demonstrate it.
I: Yeah.
R: Considering that I’m single.
I: [...]And that is, whether you’ve had an experience with any form of heterosexist
discrimination or any threats? [...]
R: Hmm... Well, it’s strongly present, I think, generally in people in the positive, as if innocent
references. I don’t know, like I’m trying to increase my sensitivity threshold, because one
cannot be put off by all such remarks in the daily functioning, or it can, but just where would it
go? I’m just trying to build some defenses against it, not letting it close to me, uhm... Now it
occurred to me, we had a very interesting situation when we were employing one publicly
known gay man, who filled in some personal questionnaire, that he is in marriage, while...
while... well, it just somehow emerged that according to… It just must have emerged that
according to the Slovak law, he’s single, because, yeah, when he... I don’t know, she sees the
criminal record, there’s listed the Slovak status...uhm... it just emerged, that... that he must have
been married in another country and with a man, that’s when the comments came that made me
feel unsure. That’s, for example why I haven’t come out to the colleague with whom we were
dealing with this, because from her reactions I wasn’t sure, whether she’d just wave a hand and
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then we’ll go along, or if now... It seemed to me as though... She’s carrying along some
prejudices, which... like it was so passive aggressive, that reaction of hers. [...]... I think I act
quite inconspicuously. Like I don’t provoke people with something, or it’s not programmatic,
that I’d say I’m not going to provoke you, it’s just that for me, the clothes I wear, for example,
isn’t any specific or doesn’t differ from the ordinary society, or that... That’s why I’m saying
that the voice, or sometimes it happened to me that someone was imitating my gestures or
simply... uhm...
I: How do you mean “imitating gestures” if you can specify?
R: Well, in some mocking spirit, that... like as if my behavior wasn’t masculine enough.
Whether... whether the voice or in general, how I act. At the same time, I’m saying that how
I act, like I’m trying, I think, I’m being myself, that it… that when I come somewhere in a blue
shirt, it isn’t because I want to blend in the heteronormative society, but because it just suits me,
that... uhm... as if I’m not calculating any extremely with these things, I’m not thinking about
how not to outrage or how to outrage. But it’s true that... that when talking about some... uhm...
some more visibility of the LGBT people, even now in connection to the May 17th, then... This
is already something that would absolutely out me if I came in some... with some rainbow
symbol or something that... which I still resist, I don’t know, yeah... But that’s a question,
because... because... for example I also began to... uhm... Well, it relates to the privacy, that for
example I don’t even have everybody from work on my Facebook or that I only have there...
only the people closer to me and I’ve already posted something on there that... uhm... from what
can be deduced my orientation or simply...
I: Yeah. But if I can go back to the beginning as you... as you mentioned the candidate who was
applying at you, were those colleague’s comments, can you specify them a bit, what was it
about?
R: I remember the feeling I had about it, that it was so uncertain, that what did she actually
think or that she just stated as if “that one’s clear“ or something, that what did that mean, that it
was so totally uncertain that... like I think that in an ideal society, either nobody would even
stop at it or someone would just say, on the contrary, that it sucks that they had to marry abroad,
because it can’t be done here or that the expression was so uncertain, so... but I say that I rather
perceived and saw negative things behind it. But on the other hand, I don’t want it to sound so...
this was one specific example. But then I’ve also experienced some very supporting, like from
81
those people with whom I... like to whom I came out, like then it also happens to me that... well,
that’s... Sometimes it’s even rather amusing as some straight people try to say that... their last
experience with another gay man who... who they met for the first time in their life, as if now
I’m friends with every gay man in Slovakia or... sometimes it’s so amusing, but one can see
that it is meant positive, so many times that even based on the tone or the context, one knows
that...
I: Isn’t it like they were somehow exoticizing you, that they would come more into the private
sphere or were any more curious?
R: No, no, but I think that it also has to do with us being in Bratislava and as I’m saying, many
people are already open here and I know... For me... I have to say, that sometimes, in the context
of workplace relationships and this topic, it’s difficult for me, that I can’t distinguish.... uhm...
whether someone is... uhm... straight with open opinions and just supporting, or the ally, or
whether... whether they belong to LGBT people. So, this is sometimes like... to break that first
ice of... or to get to it and really, so that one wouldn’t get into some, well, unenviable situation,
that’s... that’s difficult, that... I think it quite influences those... those relationships. For me it
would be simpler, if we would just somehow, with some teambuilding or something... uhm... if
some of those relationships opened up. [...] Although, it’s difficult for me ins some ways and it
also relates to that mixed identity, that one belongs to... uhm... to a church and at the same time
is gay, so in Slovakia it is like... very few people consider it compatible. Then it’s like one
doesn’t feel home anywhere, at least that’s how I perceive it from... from my... my experiences
that actually, for people in church... for many people in church, you are not like 100%. I’m not
saying that for nobody, but it certainly is an environment, with which... where you can encounter
that extremely often. And I think there are few such environments, where it would be that
extreme. Well, and then it also works the other way around in... I feel like an exotic among
LGBT people because I belong to some church. At the same time, it is... at the same time,
I belong to that church basically the whole time, it is no... I’m not there under any pressure,
I’m there voluntarily, like no... nobody is holding me there. I’m there, because I want to be
there.
[...]
I: Ah... if I return to those situations, and I also mean the remarks of the colleague, I mean that
what was somehow targeted at you, those things, for example, that they were mocking the
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behavior or the... uhm... the gestures, how did you react to all those experiences? [...] ... how
did you actually react to that?
R: Well, on the workplace it’s basically ... uhm... well, I didn’t mostly react. Like it felt
uncomfortable, and I just let such situation go. And by the way, it’s interesting, but the
workplace is a place, where it’s basically the easiest. [...] Really, the work environment has
some limits, or just, when I look at it from the HR view, that when... uhm... someone is an
employee, or if someone is a candidate, that person has to treat you politely in their own interest,
because they want to get a job from you, or they want to continue working for you, simply, uhm,
nobody wants to piss of the HR, like, do you understand...
[...]
I: I rather meant how they ridiculed you, even how they mocked you, or that with the colleague,
how did your communication change towards that people, if at all.
R: Well, it was certainly of a greater distance, more formal, like minimized to what was
necessary. Like in the... in the job, maybe basically... I was lucky there, or I am lucky there.
Like despite of what I’m saying that it is questionable with some people, I haven’t encountered
any such situation that would be... uhm... completely homophobic or so. It was either more
neutral, or just moderately negative. [...] ...that there would be some employee group or that
sometimes it‘s... even for me it was difficult, like for example, how to find, well, I was also
talking about that, that many times I didn’t manage to find a way towards... uhm... other LGBT
colleagues, [...] But it‘s... it’s difficult and definitely in the... in that church environment it’s
more difficult than in the... the normal work one.
I: Why, for example?
R: Because even if we are... uhm... officially a liberal church or how would I say, you never see
inside the heads of those individual people and what they would think of it, having some official
statement doesn’t mean that... Simply, many people have, at least that’s how I perceive it, the
opinion, that everything is... that the gays are fine when... while... until they don’t march on the
Pride, or that’s what I’ve often come across, that... and that’s something that emerges between
the words that... that there’s Pride and the next day... you meet the people in church and that’s
the topic, because... because then there’s the rally of those... the Aliancia za rodinu and so. And
now someone rolls their nose or just... It happened to me, that it was also in the sermon, but it
was positive in that sermon, like meant in a good manner, but some people just had the need
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to... like get offended by the sermon even afterwards, like oh my god, how could have someone
said such a thing in the church, or that... [...]
... Bratislava is maybe different in this, like, when one goes somewhere to the regions and there
it’s just... then... it’s different there. And then there it is often openly homophobic. Maybe it
doesn’t relate to our topic directly, but when I’ve encountered it while volunteering... I was
active as a volunteer for several years, and basically, I still am, and we were moving around
central and eastern Slovakia and... well, and there it is then entirely recognizable. Entirely
evident, when there... [...]
Then, when there was something that had to be done, I rather sent somebody else instead of me
or simply... [...]
... If I now came out immediately to everyone I meet, if I said it at the workplace and in private
sphere or somewhere, that... with huge bright letters, I wouldn’t maybe cause any great
revolution in Slovakia. Like yes, you can one can go from person to person, but if it was done
by someone publicly active or someone important and if there were more of those people,
I think something might move on.
[...]
R: After all, people know... like the majority of the society, even at the workplace, they know
the LGBT colleagues either as those, I don’t know, men who don’t have enough masculine
behavior or then those who are absolutely... how would I say it, acting like showmen. Simply...
uhm... like they would show it off with every inch of their body. Well, I would be glad if people
had... uhm... or I think that it would be fine if people had the image of sexual minorities, that
they are also decent people.
Respondent Nr. 9
I: Prvá otázka je taká trochu očakávaná, mali ste alebo zvažujete coming out na pracovisku?
R: Uh, mal som. Na viacerých pracoviskách som s tým nemal problém... akože... nie že by som
to teda hlásil verejne každému, hej, že s kým sa zoznámim, ale viac menej to neskrývam, že ak
má akože niekto potrebu sa ma to spýtať, tak v pohode. Je pravda, že teraz pracujem v... v IT
firme takej, kde je v podstate mužský kolektív, alebo skoro mužský, takže tam to nejako
neriešim, aj keď myslím si, že... uh však ľudia nie sú hlúpi a dovtípia sa a tým že ja v podstate
o partnerovi nikdy nevravím, že môj chlap mi dneska niečo povedal alebo tak, tak vždycky
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poviem tak, že polovička mi povedala, hej, a proste vždycky hovorím, že polovička a tak, lebo
proste nie som si úplne istý jak to zoberú a... a častokrát ja mám z takej osobnej skúsenosti, že...
uh... medzi vysokoškolsky vzdelanými je to viac akceptovateľné ako medzi tými, ktorí nemajú
vysokú školu a plus tam viem, že niektorí kotl... niektorí kolegovia sú kotlebovoliči, tak vravím
si, že okej, nejdem to siliť, takže... Ale ak by som to zjednodušil, nemám s tým vôbec problém
akože... Ja mám pocit, že... že aj tak to nejak sa vždycky preflákne alebo že to proste kolegovia
vedia a nejak to vôbec neriešim, hej? A ak má niekto ten... ten pocit, že... alebo potrebu sa ma
na to rovno spýtať, tak nemám potrebu to zahmlievať, takže asi tak, no.
I: Jasné. A ak môžete povedať možno koľkokrát ste mali takto, aj že nepriamy, coming out?
R: Uhm, no tak takýto že nepriamy, že v podstate som to tak akože povedal plus mínus, alebo
že by to... že by to ľudia akože pochopili, alebo že by videli môj instagram a... a hej, teda to
verejne hovorím, že... že proste toto je môj chlap a že ho milujem a tak ďalej, tak... tak
v podstate to... ani neviem koľkokrát, v podstate tým, že ja to nejak... to nejak netajím, tak... tak
v podstate to neviem... neviem ani nejako spočítať a tým, že... možno že tých nejakých
priamych coming out-ov, tých bolo asi možno že teda menej no. Akože tiež ich je relatívne dosť
veľa, hej?
I: Jasne, jasne, aby som to čisto len nejako upresnil, ide mi čisto o to, že či to bola viac menej
na vašom pracovisku nejaká jednorazová vec, alebo či to je niečo, čo musíte možno aj kvôli
novým kolegom alebo novým klientom nejak častejšie... uh... robiť, alebo...
R: Aha, jasné. No skôr... skôr to neni nikdy jednorazová vec, že v podstate nie je to tak, že
vystúpim na pódiu a teraz to verejne poviem a mám vybavené.
I: Hej.
R: Vždycky je to o nejakých skupinách ľudí, alebo proste o nejakých osobách, ktorým sa to ja
rozhodnem teda nejako zveriť keď príde nejako dobrá téma a doba a proste som si istý že ten
človek to zoberie, hej? Takže... takže v podstate je to... je to veľmi opakované a proste nikdy...
nikdy nekončiaci proces dá sa povedať akože... Nie že by toto bolo teda... jak to poviem... že
téma dňa, hej? Ale tým, že proste... tým, že s tými ľuďmi nejakým spôsobom fungujem roky,
tak proste vždycky nejak skôr či neskôr na to dôjde, takže... takže je toho veľa, ťažšie... neviem,
či... neviem, či by som to spočítal, hej, že koľkokrát toho bolo a... A v podstate predpokladám,
že sa mi to bude diať permanentne, hej? Možno do konca života, alebo... Takže tipujem...
I: Odhadom každý mesiac, alebo každý rok, alebo...?
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R: Každý mesiac nie... hmm... Je to... je to každých niekoľko mesiacov, možno ak by som
povedal, možno keby som to tak povedal, že raz za pol roka možno.
I: Uhm.
R: Ale zas na druhú stranu hej, zas keď si zoberiem, všetkých kolegov je tam veľa, hej?
V niektorých firmách som bol že dva roky a relatívne veľa sa... veľa ľuďom som to povedal,
tak možno, že by to bolo aj že každé tri mesiace. Ťažko povedať, neviem to nejako bližšie
kvantifikovať, ale...
I: Jasné.
R: Nejak tak.
I: Okej. To stačí úplne. A keď sa môžem spýtať, uh... s tými kolegami alebo kolegyňami,
s ktorými ste mali či už priamy alebo nejaký nepriamy coming out, zmenila sa nejako vaša
komunikácia s nimi na pracovisku?
R: Uh... väčšinou... teda zmenila sa v tom, že to bolo viac otvorené, hej? Že to bolo viac také
v pohode, že už to nebolo rúško toho tajomna nejaké, hej? Že ktoré možno že aj oni si svojim
spôsobom možno že dovtípili, alebo proste vedeli to od iných kolegov, ktorým som to povedal,
ale proste ešte tam nebola tá nejaká priama interakcia medzi mnou a daným človekom, takže...
takže skôr sa... skôr sa to otvorilo a bolo to viac v pohode, hej? Lebo častokrát som... častokrát
som sa dostal do takých situácií, kedy prišla teraz taká téma, alebo... alebo niečo s týmto spojené
a... a v podstate ja už som vedel, že ten druhý človek to vie, lebo sa mi zrazu začal vyhýbať,
hej? Predtým by... by kľudne, ja neviem, to bolo... poviem to tak, že povedal... toto je konkrétny
príklad, čo sa mi stal s mojim šéfom, hej, ktorý bol taký akože dosť nacista a proste... hej?
A taký... taký strašne egocentrický človek, aj keď svojim spôsobom veľmi fajn, ale... ale vieš...
ale častokrát, hej, proste nadával aj na... na gejov a na cigáňov a neviem koho a hovoril slovo
že „buzerant“, hej? A zrazu jedného dňa to prestal používať a proste, alebo keď to povedal, tak
sa tak nejak zháčil a vravel som si že „ha, niekto to už vie!“, hej? Proste mi to prišlo také, že
pomerne vtipné, hej? A smial som sa na tom, hej, že tak dobre. Ale v podstate hej, k takejto
situácii sa dostáva, keď to obidve strany vedia, ale si to nepovedali, hej? O to ide.
I: Hej, jasné. A vy aj máte inak u seba na pracovisku nejakých iných LGBT ľudí?
R: Hmm, momentálne nie, respektíve neviem o nich, hej, že by mali proste nejaký coming out,
ale myslím si, že asi nie, lebo aktuálne pracujem v jednej veľmi malej firme, nás je tam asi
pätnásť. Ale v predchádzajúcich zamestnaniach som mal, lebo to boli korporácie, takže tam...
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tam ich bolo oveľa viac. Ako to väčšinou... väčšinou bolo tak, že... v jednej konkrétnej firme to
bolo tak, že proste takmer celé HR bolo LGBT, takže oni boli silno toto... akože prezentovali
túto tému a tak ďalej a boli teda aj spolu... spoluorganizátori Pride-u a tak ďalej, aj keď ja som
skôr v rámci toho taký, že... nie že v ústraní, ale moc sa neangažujem, ani... ani to proste
nepotrebujem nejak kričať do sveta, že som LGBT a podobne. Ani v podstate v tej komunite
nežijem, lebo hej, viem aká tá naša komunita je a zas mám pocit že som si to akože dávno prežil
tieto veci a už ma to moc až tak nejak nevzrušuje. No ale hej, v bývalých zamestnaniach áno.
Hej, bolo to a bolo to akože fajn, hej? Že v podstate dosť častokrát kvôli tomu sme si robili
srandu zo seba, alebo aj iný kolegovia, ktorí neboli LGBT si robili akože srandu z nás. Akože
v tom veľmi... veľmi... veľmi dobrom a veľmi pozitívnom akože svetle, hej? Že nikdy to neboli
akože urážky alebo fyzické alebo psychické ako nejaké ataky alebo tak, že... asi... asi takto no.
Vravím, že v súčasnom zamestnaní neviem, ale skôr by som povedal, že asi nie.
I: Nie. Akože... akože mňa bude zaujímať aj kľudne aj predchádzajúce práce. Akože pokiaľ to
bola pracovná skúsenosť na Slovensku, tak ma to zaujíma.
R: Jasné.
I: Pokiaľ mi viete aj odtiaľ povedať. A myslíte, že vaša komunikácia s tými vašimi ďalšími
LGBT kolegami je, alebo bola iná, než s vašimi heterosexuálnymi kolegami a kolegyňami?
R: Hmm, ani si nemyslím, pretože koľkokrát sme my akože robili... robili vyslovene že prču
z toho a vôbec nezáležalo akože na tom, že kto je ako orientovaný z tej skupiny, hej? V rámci
tých kolegov, kde sme boli v podstate kamaráti. Nikdy... nikdy na tom nezáležalo, ale zas
napríklad som mal aj kolegov, ktorí teda boli LGBT a... a všetci sme to vedeli, hej, proste nemali
ten coming out a proste sa hanbili nejako za to a asi to vôbec nechceli nejako riešiť. Tak tam
bola tá komunikácia čisto pro, hej? A proste som si povedal, že tak okej, v pohode a ani tam
nebola nejaká tá ľudská chémia, že proste, že okej, tak s tebou asi viem, že kamoš nebudem,
lebo dobre, tak proste bavme sa profi napriek tomu že si tiež gej, hej? A proste okej, nevadí,
hej? Takže asi... asi v tomto to nikdy nezohralo nejakú... nejakú úlohu tá orientácia. Akože
vždycky to bolo... vždycky to bolo úplne, úplne v pohode, hej? Nikdy som ja osobne nemal
taký pocit, že by tam niečo také mohlo byť, že čo... čo by mohlo byť problém, alebo respektíve
prečo by hento LGBT, alebo tento faktor mal byť... alebo tá orientácia mala byť problémom.
I: Hej. Ďalšia otázka je viac menej na to, že... že jak je ten pojem vlastne „ally“ alebo
„spojenec“ na pracovisku, vlastne ľudia, ktorí vás nejakým spôsobom podporujú, viete týchto
87
ľudí na pracovisku rozoznať od tých, ktorí vás podporovať alebo akceptovať pravdepodobne
nebudú? Už ste spomínali to, že napríklad, že to na základe politického presvedčenia by ste
vedeli, keď niekto, jak ste hovorili, že sú kotlebovci nejakí vaši tí kolegovia, alebo na základe
vyjadrení napríklad, že ten váš šéf mal nejaké iné etnické menšiny a tak ďalej. Čiže viete to...
na základe čoho vy viete takýchto ľudí rozoznať
R: Ťažko povedať, je to... Ani v podstate neviem, že na základe čoho v podstate je to len... je to
len taký pocit, že viem, že s týmto človekom mi je dobre, a proste cítim sa... necítim sa ním byť
ohrozený, keď mu poviem svoje tajomstvá a... a proste keď mu poviem čokoľvek o sebe a že
to proste nezneužije, hej? Takže... a toto si myslím, že... že vôbec nie je akože vôbec viazané
nejakou sexuálnou orientáciou, alebo... alebo tak, ale proste úplne, že... že toto je... v podstate
aj keby som riešil čokoľvek iné, ja neviem, poviem, že vyhrám milión a komu to teraz poviem,
hej? V podstate úplne asi to by bolo... úplne to isté, že viem, ktorí ľudia sú čestní a proste ktorí
sú... neviem, jak to inak povedať, ale ktorí sú super a je mi s nimi dobre a tak ďalej, tak proste
viem, že... že... že to celé pochopia a tak ďalej a... a nebudú mať s tým problém, a potom sú
proste ľudia, kedy proste nejakým spôsobom, a nedokážem to pochopiť, sa ja cítim proste, že...
že „tudy cesta nevede“ (in Czech “the road does not lead this way”), hej? A neviem to proste
nejakým spôsobom racionálne popísať, hej, že prečo. Okej, tieto veci, že si všímam, hej,
politické postoje, alebo proste vyjadrovanie teda proste na nejaké určité minoritné skupiny
obyvateľstva alebo menšiny a tak ďalej. Tak toto je určite taký že varovný prst, hej? Že si
poviem že okej, no tak tuto asi musím byť veľmi opatrný, ale častokrát je to aj že o tom pocite
a akože ja som taký, že fakt veľmi dávam na pocity a tie ma zatiaľ teda, musím poklepkať, že
zatiaľ ešte nesklamali, takže...
I: Jasné.
R: Takže tak, proste komu cítim, že... že je to v pohode, tomu to poviem a... a fakt, že zatiaľ sa
mi nestalo, že by proste boli... akože nemôžem povedať, že sa mi nestalo niekedy... niekedy
dávno, hej? Niektorí ľudia boli takí, že... že takí zvláštni, že to... že to možno nie že až tak
nepobrali, ale možno že to nečakali zrovna že odo mňa. Ale na 99% je to... je to že úplne
v pohode vždycky.
I: Jasné, čiže viete to hlavne, okrem nejakých tých politických vecí, alebo aj tých vyjadrení, aj
na základe... hlavne na základe toho, že ten človek má s vami dobrý vzťah a na základe... to
viete aj na základe komunikácie rozoznať, či má...
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R: Áno. Áno, no je to... áno, áno, tak určite aj na základe komunikácie, že... že proste... Na
základe toho, ako ten človek ku mne pristupuje, hej? Že či mi on tiež povie trebárs niečo,
nejaké... nie že svoje tajomstvo, ale niečo trebárs zo súkromia, trošku viac sa teda poodhalí
a tak ďalej, tak proste viem, že... že je to fajn, hej? A keď viem aj samozrejme nejakým
spôsobom si povedať, že okej, že tento človek to robí cielene aby dostal určité informácie a je
falošný, tak viem to... viem to povedať a proste nejakým spôsobom to viem vycítiť, ale... a inak
nedokážem to nejak... nejak popísať, že... že proste ako to viem, hej? Proste strašná haluz.
[smiech]
I: Jasné, ako chápem, chápem, chápem. Ono je to niekedy zložitejšie. Ako ľudia to... aj v tých
rôznych štúdiách, čo boli niekde v zahraničí vlastne robené, tak to nejako podvedome si tých
ľudí kategorizovali, akože na základe, napríklad, veku, že keď je to niekto mladší, tak bude viac
akceptovať, na základe pohlavia, že viacej akože ženy... ženám sa otvárali, na základe geografie,
že pokiaľ je to niekto z veľkého mesta, náboženstvo, ako ste vy spomínali: politiku a tak ďalej
akože, ale aj na základe vyjadrenia, komunikácie.
R: Uhm. No s týmto... s týmto určite súhlasím, lebo taktiež aj to náboženstvo je dôležitý...
dôležitý možno že faktor. Väčšinou je... väčšinou je pravda, že tým ľuďom, ktorým sa otváram
tak málo z nich je že... že by boli takí, že veriaci, že chodia do kostola a fakt, že proste sú... uh...
sú len takí, že... proste žiadnu... akože stretol som pár ľudí, ktorí napriek tomu, hej, že robia
v Bratislave, robia proste v marketingu a tak ďalej a proste povedali, že... že... jedna kamoška
ma tak šokovala, že „ja neverím, že človek je z opice“ a že „všetko stvoril Boh“ a ja vravím že
ty kokos, tak som normálne, že prepočítaval úplne, lebo som si vravel, že „čo ti šibe? Ty akože
proste hovoríš o... furt ruka hore a žije takým spôsobom, že... že okej, Biblia by sama zhorela
a vôbec toto ty povieš?“ No, okej, respect. Úplne že strašná haluz, hej? Ale nie, je možné že
toto nejak podvedome vnímam, tieto... tieto nejaké veci, že ľudia z veľkých miest a tak ďalej,
určite... určite áno. U nás trebárs keby som bol... Ja som pôvodom teda zo stredného Slovenska,
z Horehronia a keby sa to u nás... u nás v Heľpe povedalo, že... že som taký aký som, asi... asi
by som bol oveľa, oveľa opatrnejší, no. Takže hej, určite... určite s tým súhlasím, hej? No vidíte,
ani som nevedel.
[...]
I: Okej, tak môžeme ísť vlastne na poslednú časť a tam je... to je vlastne o tom, že či ste vy
osobne alebo nepriamo zažili hocijakú formu heterosexistickej diskriminácie, alebo hrozby
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nejakej a to môže byť úplne hocičo od nejakého heteronormativizmu, násilný coming out, po
nevhodné vtipy, urážky, narážky nejaké, ohováranie, ostrakizmus, úplne hocičo takéto.
R: Uhm, uhm. No tak akože všeobecne kým teda ľudia, hej, najmä chlapi, hej, ako v tej
chlapskej partii, keď teraz nevedia, že ja som gej, tak proste častokrát... to sa mi veľakrát stalo,
že boli že... že hovorili proste, hej, že tí buzeranti a neviem čo, a tak, a proste keď už po nejakom
čase zistili, že som gej, tak proste zrazu sa úplne inak chovali, hej? Nik... nikdy potom už nemali
takéto... takéto narážky, ale v podstate dosť si myslím, že toto je také že o výchove a proste že
je to také dosť normálne v spoločnosti, hej? Ale také... poviem to, že sú to také krčmové reči,
čo sú tak zažité a... a sa toto asi tak traduje, čiže áno, veľakrát sa mi napríklad toto tu stalo
a trošku mi to bolo ako tak, že... že neprí... ani nie možno že nepríjemné, ale také... také zvláštne,
hej, že keď ja viem a oni nevedia a že proste, že keby som to teraz na nich vychrlil, že čo, jak
by reagovali. Je to taká haluz, ale že by ma nejako... proste naučil som sa s tým žiť, hej? Akože
toto tu je, toto tu ešte asi dlho bude a tak ďalej, takže to nezmením, jedine že proste čo ja sa
naučím s týmto žiť, takže... takže toto je také v pohode...
[...]
R: ... a ten môj šéf, ktorý som si myslel, že tiež je v podstate teda náš, len si to v podstate ešte
neuvedomil, lebo nes... v kuse proste nešťastný z toho, že má rodinu a niečo a predtým strašne
chcel rodinu, lebo však to tak má byť podľa viery, potom mal rodinu a teraz má nešťastie, lebo
nie je tak, jak si predstavoval a vravím si, že „kámo, ten problém bude asi niekde inde“, hej,
lebo dosť často proste tieto veci cítim a hej, hovorí sa tomu, že je to gaydar a podobne, ale...
ale proste, akože zatiaľ som sa veľmi nesekol veľakrát, že... že to tak bolo. No a tak on bol
proste... no a zase ja mám tak osobne taký pocit, že tí ľudia, ktorí sa boja sami sebe to priznať
sú úplne tí najhorší, lebo tí ešte viac proste idú proti tím gejom a tak ďalej, takže... uh... hej, no.
Takže v podstate on mal s tým problém a... ale proste nikdy mi to nedal osobne najavo, hej, že
vždycky sa snažil dať akože profesionálne jedno a potom asi aj keď to zistil, tak nemám pocit,
že sa to nejak zmenilo. Hej, akože nevšimol som si to, takže na pracovisku som nikdy nemal
žiaden... žiadny fyzický atak ani tak. Je... je pravda, že teraz v tomto zamestnaní mám pocit, že
môj šéf má s týmto problém, ale je pravda, že veľakrát som mal s ním nejaký... nejaký... nejaké
osobné rozhovory a tak ďalej, lebo my sme si fyzicky od prvého dňa vôbec nesadli, hej, akože
to je proste... nechápem jak to, že som zobral ten job, akože úplne strašný omyl, ale hej,
whatever. Proste stalo sa no a ja som akože strašne dlho mal podozrenie, že toto je ten problém,
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hej, lebo niekde som ešte našiel na diskoch, že proste robil nejaké kampane pre KDH a to som
si hovoril, že no ty kokos, tak to... to... Ale pritom nikdy som to necítil, že by bol kresťanský,
alebo že by to... Aj keď potom mi jedna kolegyňa vravela, že jeho... jeho životným snom je
stretnúť sa s Ježišom. To som si hovoril, že aha, okej, že však v pohode, ja to úplne akceptujem
keď niekto verí a tak ďalej, len proste už som týchto ľudí tak zaškatuľkoval, ktorí sú títo, že...
že títo to vôbec neberú a majú s tým akože vyslovene problém, takže dosť... dosť som
podozrieval šéfa, že tuto je ten problém, ale dodnes neviem, či skutočne, alebo proste že je tam
tá chémia, že to tam nesedí a že to tam nie je. No nedokážem to popísať, ale od prvého dňa si
nesedíme a to si myslím, že... teda tak dúfam, že to úplne nie je hneď na mne vidieť akože
z prvého pohľadu. Takže neviem, no, ťažko povedať. Ale inak... inak akože nikdy som s tým
nemal nejaké problémy, som sa vyslovene netrápil, že okej, že Ježiš čo keď teraz niekto o mne
zistí, hej? Je pravda, že keď až som zobral túto prácu v tom čisto... skoro čisto mužskom
kolektíve, napadlo ma to až po nejakom dlhom... dlhšom čase, že aha, či to náhodou nebude
môcť byť problém alebo tak, ale nebolo to niečo, čo by mi ako teraz blyslo, že uf, akože... že
môže to byť prúser. Takže myslím, že nie a v podstate asi som happy person, alebo hej, šťastný
človek v podstate, keď to tak vidím teraz.
I: Vám keď sa... keď sa stali také veci, že mali vyjadrenia tí ľudia a tak ďalej, tak ste... tak to
bolo spravidla vtedy, keď vlastne o vás nevedeli, že ste tiež gej, hej?
R: Uhm. Uhm. Presne tak.
I: Čiže ste na to nereagovali nijako, vôbec, hej?
R: No tváril som sa ako ďalší heterák a samozrejme proste ne... neprilieval som vodu do ohňa,
hej? A... a vždycky som sa teda vyvaroval týmto označeniam. A ono potom, čo by som to bol
za človeka, hej? To by som bol čistý pokrytec, ale v podstate som to akože nejako proste
premlčal, alebo akože smiech, že sranda a tak ďalej ale hej, viac menej som to ignoroval.
[...]
I: Vám sa zmenila nejako... ste hovorili o tom aj, že ten váš šéf si na to potom začal dávať pozor,
akože na jazyk keď zistil už a vám sa zmenila ešte nejako inak tá komunikácia po týchto
incidentoch s tými ľuďmi? Pokojne môžu byť aj tí ďalší kolegovci, inak ste s nimi začali
komunikovať, alebo oni s vami potom?
R: Uh, nemyslím si. Akože nič také som po pravde nepostrehol, že by... že by to bolo, lebo
akože toto je... toto v podstate... táto nejaká orientácia, to je iba nejaký úplne malinký fragment
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toho celkového čo s tými ľuďmi riešim a... a teraz aj... aj o... v rámci súkromného života, alebo
proste celkovo a nikdy som nemal... nemal pocit, že... že keď už sa to oni dozvedeli, alebo keď
už bol coming out, že som im to priamo povedal, že by teraz zrazu... zrazu sa začali nejako
akože chovať inak, alebo... alebo teda komunikovať so mnou inak, hej? Že hmm, nemôžem
povedať, že by som mal kedykoľvek ten pocit, že... To, že si dávali, začali si dávať na to pozor,
hej a... a proste keď to náhodou povedali, tak sa zháčili a vravel som si „ah jo, ty víš, ty víš“ (in
Czech “oh yeah, you know, you know”). Takže to bolo také akože vtipné, ale inak nie. Inak to
bolo vždycky... vždycky v rovnakom tóne, ako to bolo predtým, hej, že very friendly, alebo teda
veľmi profesionálne, hej a že stále sme v tom pokračovali, takže hmm. Myslím, že... myslím,
že nie.
I: Hmm. [...]...keď ste na začiatku hovorili, že... že ti veci ohľadom toho, keď ste hovorili
o coming out-e ešte, že to súvisí často aj so vzdelaním, že kto má aké vzdelanie. Aj na základe
toho dosiahnutého vzdelania vy nejako rozoznávate, či vás ten človek bude nejakým spôsobom
akceptovať alebo nie, keď ste hovorili, že možno tam u vás hrá rolu v tom, že či sa vy-out-ujete
pred tým človekom?
R: Hmm. Uh... no myslím... myslím, že áno. Akože to je skôr niečo, čo som nejako empiricky
si tak nejako vyhodnotil, alebo čo som teda zažil, že s ľuďmi s vysokoškolským vzdelaním sa
mi proste... dokážem sa oveľa rýchlejšie naladiť na nejakú rovnakú nôtu a proste dokážem...
a v podstate zdieľam oveľa viac rovnakých hodnôt a názorov, ako s tými proste zo... čo majú
proste len strednú školu, hej? A proste keď som toto zistil, tak som sám so sebou mal problém,
že však kokos ale ja sa teraz nemôžem vymedzovať, že sa budem kamošiť len so samými, čo
majú vysokú školu. Proste to je strašne krátkozraké, ale... a samozrejme, že sú výnimky a to
som vtedy z toho strašne šťastný. Ale hej no, je to proste... nechápem ako je to, ja som si aj
vravel, že ty kokos, snáď je to aj genetikou. Alebo nie že genetikou, ale tým, že človek sa musí
učiť, hej, tak musí... premýšľa, sa mu tam tie oné... uh... spojenia v hlave rozvíjajú a zrazu mu
docvaknú aj iné veci a tak ďalej, takže... uh... takže to bude možno že aj tým, ale... hej, no proste
nejakým spôsobom som zistil, že... že s tými ľuďmi čo majú teda to... to vyššie dosiahnuté
vzdelanie je to oveľa lepšia a že v podstate dokážu to skôr pochopiť a... a proste, že im to
nemusím nejako zložito vysvetľovať, lebo tým, že aj iné veci im nemusím zložito vysvetľovať,
hej? Tak proste dokážu to pochopiť, dokážu to akceptovať a je to fajn, takže hej, no. Akože mňa
to osobne mrzí trošku, že to tak je, ale... a vždycky som si proste vravel, že to je blbosť, lebo
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už som sa s takými názormi predtým stretol, ale proste fakt, že bohužiaľ to platí, no. A možno
že to častokrát je aj o tom, že mesto, dedina a tak ďalej, no. No, asi tak.
[...]
Respondent Nr. 9 (partial translation)
I: The first question is a bit expected one, have you or did you consider coming out at workplace?
R: Uh, I have. I didn’t have any problem with that at several workplaces... like... not that I would
announce it publicly to everyone, right, but more or less, I don’t hide it, when someone has the
need to ask, I’m ok. It’s true that now I work in… in an IT company, where there’s basically an
all-male collective or nearly all-male collective, so I don’t deal with that there, even though I
think that… uh, well, the people aren’t dumb and they’ll guess it, considering that I basically
never talk about my partner like “my man told me something today” or so, so I always say it
like “my better half told me”, yeah and I always say “my better half” and so, because I’m not
completely sure how would they take it and… many times, from the personal experience I
have… uh… it’s more accepted among university graduates than among those that haven’t
graduated university, plus I know, that some kotl… some colleagues are voters of Kotleba10, so
I say to myself that okay, I’m not going to force it, so… But if I had to simplify it, I don’t have
any problem with it, like… I have the feeling that… that nevertheless, it would always come
out or that the colleagues just know it and I’m not dealing with it, right? And if someone has
the… the feeling that… or the need to ask me directly, I have no need to blur it, so like that.
I: Sure. And maybe if you can tell, how many times did you have, even this indirect, coming
out?
R: Uhm, well, this indirect, basically I’d say more or less, but that it would… so that people
would understand it or that they would see my Instagram and… and yeah, I say it publicly
that… that simply this is my man and that I love him and so on, so… so basically it… I don’t
even know how many times, basically as I somehow… somehow don’t hide it, so… so basically,
I don’t know… I can’t even count it and as… maybe there was a bit less of those direct coming
outs, yeah. Like there’s also quite a lot of them too, right?
10
Marián Kotleba: leader of a far-right extremist political party Kotlebovci-ĽSNS (“Kotlebists- People’s Party
Our Slovakia”)
93
I: Yeah, yeah, just to make it clear, I just wonder whether it has been more or less a one-time
thing at your workplace, or whether it is something that you maybe need to do somehow more
often, even because of new colleagues or new clients... uh... or...
R: Oh, sure. Well, rather... it’s rather not a one-time thing, it’s not like I would step on a stage
and say it publicly and I’m done.
I: Yeah.
R: It’s always about some groups of people or just about some people, to whom I decide to
confide when some good topic and time comes and I’m just sure that the person takes it, right?
So... so basically, it’s... it’s an often repeated and just never... never ending process I can say,
so... Not that it would be... how will I say that... like the topic of the day, right? But with that,
like... that I’ve been somehow getting along with those people for years, so it just always comes
to that, sooner or later, so... so there is a lot of it, more difficult... I don’t know if... I don’t know
if I would count it, right, that how many times it has been and... And basically, I suppose that it
will be happening to me permanently, right? Maybe even till the end of my life or... So, I guess...
I: Approximately every month, or every year, or...?
R: Not every month... hmm... It’s... it’s once in a few months, maybe if I’d say, maybe when I’d
say so, like once in half year maybe.
I: Uhm.
R: But on the other hand, yeah, if I consider it, there’s a lot of all the colleagues there, right?
I have spent some two years in some companies and relatively many... I’ve told it to many
people, so maybe it was even every three months. Hard to say, I can’t quantify it any closer,
but...
I: Right.
R: Like that.
I: Ok. That’s totally enough. And if I can ask, uh... with those colleagues with whom you’ve
had either a direct or indirect coming out, has your workplace communication with them
somehow changed somehow?
R: Uh... mostly... well, it has changed in that it became more open, right? That it was more all
right, that there wasn’t such a veil of mystery anymore, right? That maybe they even guessed
or that they’ve found out from other colleagues to whom I’d already told it, but there just hadn’t
been any direct interaction between me and that certain person, so... so it rather... it rather
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opened up and it was more all right, right? Because many times I’ve... many times I’ve gotten
into such situations, when that kind of topic came out or... or something connected to this and...
and basically, I’d already known, that the other person knew, because they suddenly started to
avoid me, right? Before, they would... they would easily, I don’t know, it was... I’ll put it this
way, he said... this is a specific example that has happened to me with my boss, right, who was
like pretty much a Nazi and just... right? And such a... such a terribly egocentric person, even
though really all right in some way... but you know... but many times, right, he was just cursing
at... at gays and gypsies and I don’t know who and telling the word “faggot”, right? And
suddenly, one day he stopped using it and just, or if he used it, he somehow jibbed and said to
myself “ha, somebody knows already”, right? It just seemed to me so, like quite funny, right?
And I was laughing about it, yeah, like ok. But basically yeah, it comes to such situation if both
sides know about it, but haven’t shared it, right? That’s what it’s about.
I: Yeah, sure. And do you have some other LGBT people at your workplace?
R: Hmm, not momentarily, or I don’t know about them, right, that they would have some
coming out, but I think that rather not, because I’m currently working for one very small
company, there’s maybe fifteen of us there. But I had in the previous jobs because those were
corporations, so there... there was much more of them. But it mostly... mostly it was like... in
one specific company it was so, that just nearly the whole HR was LGBT, so they were strongly
this... like they were presenting the topic and so on and they were also co... co-organizers of
Pride and so on, even though in this area I’m like… not like secluded, but I’m not really active,
neither… neither do I consider it necessary to shout it out to the world that I’m LGBT and so
on. I’m basically not even living in the community, because yeah, I know how that community
of ours is and I have the feeling that I’ve like already experienced all these things and it doesn’t
even excite me that much anymore. Well, but yeah, in the previous jobs, yes. Yeah, it was, and
it was like fine, right? That basically we’ve been making fun of each other many times, or even
the colleagues that were not LGBT were like making fun of us. Like in this very… very… very
good and very positive manner, right? Like those have never been like offenses or some physical
or psychological attacks or so, so… maybe… maybe like that, yeah. I’m saying that I don’t
know about the current job, but I’d rather say no.
[...]
95
I: And do you think that your communication with these other LGBT colleagues of yours is or
has been any different to that with your heterosexual colleagues?
R: Hmm, I don’t really think so, because many times we’ve been like making… literally making
fun of each other, entirely regardless of one’s orientation in that group, right? Among those
colleagues, where we were basically friends. Never… it never depended on that, but on the
other hand, I’ve had colleagues who were LGBT and… and we all knew, right, they just hadn’t
had the coming out and were just ashamed of it and probably didn’t want to deal with it at all.
There the communication was purely professional, right? And I just said to myself, ok, all right,
neither was there any human chemistry, like simply ok, I may know that I’m not going to be
friends with you, because ok, so let’s just talk professionally even though you are also gay, right?
And just ok, doesn’t matter, right? So, maybe… maybe here it has never played any… any role,
the orientation. Like it has always been… always been completely, completely all right, yeah?
Personally, I’ve never had the feeling, that there should be something like that, what... what
could be an issue, or why the LGBT, or that factor should be... or the orientation should be an
issue.
I: Yeah. The next question is more or less about... how there is the term “ally” at the workplace,
actually, people who somehow support you, can you differentiate these people at the workplace
from those, who probably wouldn’t support or accept you? You’ve already mentioned, for
example, that you could know that based on the political beliefs, when someone, as you’ve said
that some of your colleagues are Kotleba supporters or based on expressions, for example, that
your boss had about some other ethnical minorities and so on. So, can you... based on what can
you recognize these people?
R: Hard to say, it is... Basically, I don’t even know what it is based on, it’s really just… it’s just
such a feeling that I know that I feel good with that person, and I just feel… I don’t feel
threatened by them, when I tell them my secrets and… and just if I told them anything about
me, they wouldn’t just misuse it, right? So… and I think that… that it isn’t absolutely tied to
any sexual orientation or… or so, or just entirely like… like this is… basically, even if I were
dealing with anything else, I don’t know, let’s say I’d win a million and to whom would I tell
that, right? Basically, it would be entirely… entirely the same, like I know which people are
honest and just which are… I don’t know how to say it differently, but which are great, and I
feel good with them and so on, so I just know that… that they would get it all and so on and…
96
and wouldn’t have any problem with that and then there are just people, where I somehow feel,
and I don’t get it, I feel just like… this doesn’t lead anywhere, right? And I don’t know how to
describe it by any rational means, right, like why. Ok, these things I do observe, right, political
beliefs, or just expressions on certain minority groups of population or minorities and so on. So,
this is like a red flag, right? Like I say to myself, ok, well, maybe I have to be more careful here,
but often it’s also about that feeling and like, I’m like that, like I give a lot on feelings, and they
haven’t disappointed me yet, I have to knock, so…
I: Sure.
R: So, like that, to whom I feel... like it’s all right, I tell them and… and the fact is, that it has
never happened to me that they would… like I couldn’t say that it hasn’t happened to me
sometimes… some time a while ago, right? Some people were like… like so weird that it…
that maybe they haven’t accepted it that much, but maybe they just hadn’t expected it from me.
But for 99% it’s… it’s absolutely all right, all the time.
I: Right, so you know it mainly, except for some of the political issues or those expressions,
also based on... mainly based on if the person has a good relationship with you and based on...
you can also recognize it based on communication, whether they have...
R: Yes. Yes, well, it’s… yeah, yeah, well, certainly based on communication as well, that… that
simply… Based on how the person approaches me, right? Whether they perhaps also tell me
something, some… not like their secret, but maybe even something from their privacy,
revealing themselves a little bit and so on, so I just know that… that it’s fine, right? And if I
also know, obviously, to somehow tell that ok, this person is doing it on purpose in order to get
certain information and is false, then I know it… I know how to say that and just somehow feel
it, but… and otherwise, I can’t somehow… somehow describe that… just how do I know, right?
Just a lot of fun.
[laughter]
I: Sure, like I get it, I get it, I get it. Sometimes it’s more complicated. Like people… even in
those various studies that were done abroad, they’ve somehow subconsciously categorized
those people, like based on, for instance, age, like when someone’s younger, then they’d be
more accepting, based on gender, like more women… they’ve opened up more to women, based
on geography, like if someone’s from a big city, religion, as you’ve mentioned: politics and so
on, like even based on expressions, communication.
97
R: Uhm. Well, with this... I certainly agree with this, because also the religion is an important...
important, maybe even a factor. Mostly it is... mostly it’s true, that those people to whom I open
up, few of them are like... like they would be religious, like church going... [...] But no, it’s
possible that I somehow perceive it subconsciously, these... this sort of things, that people from
big cities and so on, certainly... certainly yes. For example, if I were back at our place... I’m
originally from central Slovakia, from Horehronie and if at our place... back at our place in
Heľpa, if it was said that... that I am how I am, maybe... maybe I’d be much, much more
cautious, yeah. So yeah, certainly... I certainly agree with that, right? See? I haven’t even known
about that.
[...]
I: Ok, so we can go for the last part and there is... It’s basically about whether you’ve personally
or indirectly experienced any form of heterosexist discrimination or any threat and that could
be absolutely anything from some heteronormativity, forced coming out, to unsuitable jokes,
offenses, some comments, gossip, ostracism, absolutely anything like this.
R: Uhm, uhm. Well, like in general, since the people, right, mainly men, right, like in the guy
group, when they don’t know that I’m gay, then just often... it has happened to me many times,
that they were... that they were just talking, yeah, that those faggots and I don’t know what and
so, and just when they’ve realized after some time that I’m gay, they just suddenly behaved
totally different, right? No... never again did they have any such... such remarks, but basically,
I really think that this is kinda about upbringing and simply that it is kinda normal in the society,
right? But such... let’s say such pub talks that are innate and... and are probably a tradition, so
yes, this has happened to me many times, for example, and I have felt a bit like... like uncomf...
maybe not uncomfortable, but so... so weird, right, that when I know and they don’t know and
that if I’d just splash it on them, like what, how would they react. It’s such a funny thing, but
that it would somehow... I’ve simply learnt to live with it, right? Like it’s here and it probably
will be for a long time and so on, so I won’t change it, the only thing left is that I’ll just learn
to live with this, so... so this is kinda all right...
[...]
R: ... and that boss of mine, who I thought that is basically ours, but just hasn’t realized it yet,
because... always upset about having family and something and he really wanted a family
before, because that’s how it should be according to faith, then he had a family and now he’s
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upset, because it’s not how he’d imagined it and I say, dude, the problem will be probably
somewhere else, right, because I often feel these things, it’s called “gaydar” and so, but... but
just, I haven’t been wrong that much yet that... that it was so. Well, and he was just... well, and
I personally have the feeling, that people who are afraid to admit it are the absolutely worst,
because they just go even more against the gays and so on, so... uh... yeah, well. So, basically,
he used to have a problem with it and... but he has just never let me know about it, yeah, that
he has always tried to stay professionally neutral and maybe even after he found out, I don’t
think it has somehow changed. Yeah, like I haven’t observed it, so I haven’t had any... any
physical attack at the workplace or so. It’s... it’s true that many times I’ve had some... some...
some personal discussions with him and so on, because we haven’t got along physically since
the first day at all, yeah, like it’s just... I don’t get why I’ve taken that job, like a total mistake,
but yeah, whatever. It’s just happened, and I’ve just had a suspicion for a long time that this is
the problem, yeah, because I’ve found somewhere on the discs that he’s simply done some
campaigns for KDH11 and I said, oh my god, that... that... But at the same time, I have never
felt that he’d be any religious or that it would... Even though a colleague told me after that, that
his... his life dream had been to meet Jesus. Then I said, oh, ok, but that’s fine, I totally accept
it if someone believes and so on, I’ve just kinda put those people in a box, that these are the
ones that... that I’m not interested in these people don’t accept me at all and literally have an
issue with it, so really... I really used to suspect my boss that here’s the problem, but until this
day, I don’t know if for real or if there’s just that chemistry that it doesn’t fit and isn’t there.
Well, I can’t describe it, but we don’t get along since the first day and I think it’s... at least I hope
so, that it’s not visible on me from the first sight. So, I don’t know, hard to say. But otherwise...
otherwise I didn’t have any troubles with it, I didn’t literally worry that, ok, Jesus, what if
someone finds out about it now, right? It’s true that it was after I took the job in a purely...
almost purely all-male team, it occurred to me after some long... longer time that oh, whether
this couldn’t be the issue or so, but it wasn’t something that would flash like oh, like... that it
can be a problem. So, I think not and maybe I’m basically a happy person when I see it now.
I: When you... when those things occurred, that the people had those expressions and so on,
you... then it was usually when they didn’t know about you being gay as well, right?
11
KDH: Kresťanskodemokratické hnutie (“Christian Democratic Movement”): Slovak political christian party,
member of the European People’s Party
99
R: Uhm. Uhm. Exactly.
I: So, you didn’t react to it at all, right?
R: Well, I was pretending to be another hetero and of course I just didn’t... I wasn’t adding fuel
to the fire, right? And... and I always avoided these labels. And then, what for a person would
I be, right? I would be a pure hypocrite, but I just basically remained silent or just took it as fun,
laughter and so on, but yeah, I more or less ignored it.
[...]
I: Was there any change... as you’ve told that even your boss began to pay attention for his
words when he found out, has your communication changed in some other way after these
incidents with those people? It can be also about those other colleagues, did you begin to
communicate with them differently afterwards, or they with you?
R: Uh, I don’t think so. Like I haven’t truly observed anything like it, that... that it would be,
because like this is... this basically... this orientation is just some absolutely tiny fragment of the
whole complexity that I deal with those people and... and now also... also about... regarding the
private life, or just in general and I’ve never had... never had the feeling... that when they found
out or when there was a coming out, that I told them directly that now suddenly... that they
would suddenly begin to act differently or... or communicate with me differently, right? That
hmm, I can’t tell that I would have the feeling anytime... that they were paying more attention,
yeah and... and just when they said it by an accident, they jibbed and I said to myself, oh yeah,
you know, you know. So, it was like kind of funny, but otherwise not. Otherwise, it has always
been... always in the same tone as it was before, yeah, like very friendly or like very
professionally, yeah, and we went on with it, so hmm. I think... I think not.
I: Hmm. [...] ...Can you also somehow recognize it based on achieved level of education,
whether the person will somehow accept you or not, if you were saying that maybe it plays
a role for you whether you come out to that person?
R: Hmm. Uh... well, I think... I think yes. Like that’s rather something that I’ve somehow
empirically evaluated or what I’ve experienced that with people with university education
I just... I can tune on the same note much faster with them and I just can... and I basically share
much more common values and opinions than with those from... that just have a high school
education, right? [...] ... yeah, well, I just somehow realized that... that with those people who
have the... the higher achieved education, it’s much better and they can basically understand it
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and... and I simply don’t have to explain it to them with difficulty as I don’t need to explain
other things to them with any difficulty, right? So, they are just able to understand it, able to get
it, able to accept it and it’s fine, so yeah, well. [...]
And maybe it’s often about whether it’s town, village and so on, yeah.
[...]
Respondent Nr. 10
I: Dobre. Takže začnem hneď prvou otázkou a tá je dosť taká očakávaná: mali ste coming out
v práci alebo zvažovali ste coming out v práci?
R: Mal som aj v práci aj v pracovných pohovoroch.
I: Uhm.
R: A jednoducho to mi bolo akože... Viete čo, prišiel som na Slovensko s veľkým snom,
s veľkými snami a jednoducho bol som plný ideálov a myslel som, že všetko je ružové a všetko
je taký dokonalý právny štát v západnej Európe pre mňa, ktorý som úplne z juhovýchodu
a myslel som, že tu LGBTI ľudia majú plnú ochranu a podporu spoločnosti v ktorej sú, nad tým
slovenským trhom. Väčšinou som bol na pohovoroch a pracoval aj pre spoločnosti, ktoré sú
medzinárodné.
I: Okej a mali ste... keď ste hovorili teda, že aj na tých pohovoroch, mali ste len pozitívne
skúsenosti alebo aj negatívne? Čisto v rámci pohovoru.
R: V rámci pohovoru väčšinou negatívne, pretože ľudia na Slovensku majú veľmi veľakrát
predsudky voči všetkému, čo je inakšie alebo cudzie a tým, že som patril do LGBTI a ešte bol
aj cudzincom, tým bolo viac manipulovateľné zo strany zamestnávateľa alebo spoločnosti, pre
ktorú som práve pracoval a jednoducho mali veľakrát taký pocit, že ak patrím do LGBTI
spoločnosti, že som viac slabým a jednoducho sa nechám manipulovať ľuďmi, že by som robil
nadčasovo, alebo v znevýhodnených podmienkach. V prvej spoločnosti kde som pracoval bol
som akože marketing a call centrum a mal som takú skúsenosť, že ľudia vedeli, že som LGBTI,
nevedeli, že či som gay či niečo iné, ale snažili sa odo mňa dostať taký výkon, že som hodinu
pracoval v sediacej polohe a hodinu som musel stáť a jednoducho komunikovať cez telefónnu
linku a keď som sadol, tak jednoducho by som musel posielať maily a odporúčať marketingovo
ako jednoducho vyriešiť nejaké situácie a ako dostať zákazníka konferenčnej spoločnosti.
A veľakrát človek prišiel, ktorý bol Slovák a jednoducho mi hovoril: „Vieš čo? Ty si obyčajný
101
teploš a ty budeš robiť všetko čo ja chcem, máš prísť pätnásť minút pred začiatkom pracovnej
doby. Ak neprídeš, tento z Indie, tento Ind za... bude pracovať na tvojom mieste za
tristopäťdesiat eur v čistom.“ A ja som robil za nejakých štyristopäťdesiat, päťsto eur v čistom.
Takže... uh... bolo to aj z finančného pohľadu týranie, ale najviac bolo, že pred celým tímom,
pred celou miestnosťou hovoril teploš. Pretože to bol Slovák s nejakým českým dialektom,
alebo žil nejakú dobu v Česku. Takže to som zažil ako prvé a to ma poznačilo na veľmi dlho,
pretože som odvtedy aj dostal takú zmenu... uh... zmenu spánku. Jednoducho nezvládol som
zaspať v noci, pretože som musel tie práce... po práci jednoducho o tretej ráno hľadať tých
zákazníkov, klientov.
I: Hej.
R: A veľakrát, keď som ja napríklad aj priniesol obed a vysmievali sa mi jednoducho „Ďakujem
kočka“ akože že som priniesol obed a veľakrát som zažil to, že jednoducho jeden od vedúcich
chcel, aby každý nováčik alebo nováčka prišla do jeho kancelárie a jednoducho mu dala fajku.
Jednoducho orálne ho uspokojila. Každá osoba. A ja som jednoducho prišiel, priniesol som
akože... rád varím, rád pečiem a priniesol som koláče a povedal som: „Tu si máte na prvý deň,
že si osladíte vlastný deň“ a vyšiel som von a potom všetci začali tlieskať, že som dokázal mu
akože spustiť, že som mu nedal to, čo chcel.
I: To normálne aj heterosexuálni ľudia mu tam prišli a dávali mu akože... toto?
R: Jednoducho sú ľudia, ktorí pracujú pre zahraničný trh a jednoducho zahraničné spoločnosti,
ktorí jednoducho musia mať pocit moci nad tým, ktorý prichádza ako nová... nová osoba do
kolektívu alebo do spoločnosti.
[...]
R: Áno a mal som šťastie, že napríklad môj partner, keď to všetko počul, ako ma psychicky
akože... vyžívali sa v tom, že jednoducho mňa úplne zničia, tak jednoducho on poslal na Úrad
práce aj na Inšpektorát práce nejaký podnet anonymný a mne v priebehu týždňa ako som ja
skončil, tak jednoducho skončil aj môj šéf aj ten hlavný marketingu a sales-u.
I: No, to je rozumné. Inak k tomu by som sa ešte potom viacej vrátil. Teraz ešte k tomu coming
out-u. A keď ste hovorili, že ste... teda ste hovorili, že ste ho mali aj na pohovore v rámci práce,
v rámci pracovného prostredia. Ako často ste ho museli mať? Bolo to vždy v každej práci že
jednorazová vec alebo to bolo niečo, čo ste museli robiť pravidelne pri zákazníkoch nových
a tak ďalej?
102
R: No, uh... V niektorých spoločnostiach som robil... nerobil som to chcene, ale jednoducho na
mňa poukázali prstom.
I: Čiže násilný coming out taký, hej?
R: Áno, jednoducho že keď oni chceli, nechceli, majú LGBTI osobu zamestnanú vo firme akože.
A boli aj takéto milšie prípady v spoločnostiach, jednoducho sa snažili poukázať na toleranciu
medzi ľuďmi. Takže skôr zneužívali ten môj coming out aby prilákali čím viac tých bonitných
klientov.
I: Uhm. Uhm. A to sa dialo pravidelne teda, hej?
R: Áno, ale za povrchom to bol veľmi negatívne, že jednoducho držali ma viac ako prívesok na
kľúče aby dostali bonitných zahraničných klientov, pretože napríklad keď nejaká spoločnosť
spolupracuje s [meno firmy], [meno firmy], oni dbajú jednoducho na to, že sa dbá na ľudské
práva aj na LGBTI práva ľudí.
I: Hej.
R: Tak jednoducho tie menšie spoločnosti snažia sa uchádzať o lepšiu priazeň tých veľkých.
I: Jasné. Jasné. A... a tá, keď... zmenila sa vám nejako komunikácia s tými vašimi kolegami
alebo kolegyňami po tom coming oute?
R: Áno.
I: V akom zmysle, ak môžete špecifikovať?
R: No napríklad... neviem, ako to je v zahraničí, ale napríklad na Slovensku niečo ako vzťah
monogamný viac menej neexistuje a ľudia sa veľakrát snažia jednoducho podliezť mi do
spodiek, aj keď jednoducho som povedal hneď na začiatku, že som slušný človek, rešpektujem
všetkých, mám partnera doma, ktorého jednoducho ľúbim, jednoducho snažím sa ho podporiť
vo všetkých životných situáciách. Veľa ľudí aj v tých LGBTI organizáciách sa snažili
a jednoducho aj baliť mňa, že by som ich napríklad neznásilnil, alebo jednoducho nie príliš
priťažil na sexuálny styk. Jednoducho boli príliš...
I: Nechápem, ako...
R: ...boli príliš vzrušení mojim vzhľadom, že jednoducho si chceli prejsť ten priečinok, že
jednoducho chcú niečo mať so mnou a mysleli si jednoducho, že som ja taký liberálny, že som
v otvorenom vzťahu, čo je v LGBTI komunite dosť prítomné na Slovensku.
[...]
103
I: Mali ste v tých... v tých pracoviskách... teda samozrejme, že... že hovoríme jednak o tých
neziskovkách, kde ste mali tých ďalších LGBT ľudí... poznáte však asi, keď ste tam robili ten
pojem, že „ally“, akože spojenec a...
R: A jednoducho som s nimi komunikoval aj mal priamu komunikáciu s rodičmi aj s tými
ľuďmi, ktorí podporujú LGBTI ľudí.
I: Hej, hej, hej.
R: Cez toto, že majú napríklad dieťa, alebo niekoho v rodine, ktorý patrí do LGBTI skupiny.
I: Hej, ale sa chcem spýtať, či bola vaša komunikácia iná alebo... bola iná s LGBTI ľuďmi
v práci alebo s týmito allies, než s inými heterosexuálnymi kolegami, kolegyňami?
R: Za reálne poviem, mám pár známych z výbehu, ktorých som stretol ohľadom tohto v práci
a jednoducho ja som nebol prvý, ktorý patril do LGBTI skupiny. Boli chápaví, snažili sa
pomôcť, jednoducho komunikovať. Je dosť ľudí, ktorí jednoducho neriešia, či je niekto LGBTI,
ale jednoducho pozerajú na ich osobnosť a sú ľudia, ktorí jednoducho patria k LGBTI skupine,
ktorí sú hladní pozornosti, potrebujú jednoducho čím viac, tým ďalej pozornosti a jednoducho
ukrižujú samých seba na verejnosti, že sú oni obetou celej spoločnosti a že zaslúžia si
maximálnej finančnej podpory napríklad. [...] Proste pre slovenskú vládu a slovenskú
spoločnosť LGBTI ľudia sú viac záťažou, ale medzinárodné organizácie a medzinárodné tie...
vlády sa ľudské práva snažia jednoducho zvýšiť na inú úroveň ako na postkomunistickú, ktorá
aktuálne je viac menej prítomná. [...] A ten mečiarizmus sa stále nestratil, pretože ľudia keď
chcú sa stať úspešnými politikmi, chytajú sa za postkomunistický názor o LGBTI ľuďoch a
jednoducho o hodnotách rodiny. Kvôli tomu sa stalo aj to referendum o rodine a stalo sa aj to,
že historicky na Slovensku pán v rádiu, ktoré neskôr patrilo Francúzsku, francúzskej
spoločnosti v deväťdesiatych rokoch podporoval LGBTI komunitu a robil bály s organizáciou,
všetky tie aktivity. Kým rádio sa dostalo do súkromných rúk… uh… Kollára. Jednoducho…
uh… to rádio sa tým viac propaguje ako extrémne rodiny a rodinné hodnoty.
I: Hej.
R: A všetko proti LGBTI ľuďom. A ľudia ktorých poznám, ktorí pracovali aj v rádiách,
nehovorím o [meno firmy], ktorí patrili do LGBTI skupiny, boli týraní, až na koniec sa tohto
vzdali a odišli zo Slovenska.
I: Ako týraní v rámci rádia? Toho [meno firmy], alebo normálne že bežne… že na pracovisku a
takto?
104
R: Týraní vo svojej profesii a jednoducho preukaz… poukazovala novela [nezrozumiteľné] len
cez okuliare LGBTI.
I: Hej.
R: Nepozeralo sa nikdy na ich osobnú kvalitu, profesionalitu, ale jednoducho vždy, keď sa ich
snažili ovplyvniť, tak jednoducho poukázali na to, že patria do LGBTI komunity a že by mali
jednoducho sklapnúť a držať hubu. To sa veľakrát stáva na Slovensku, vo veľa spoločnostiach,
ktoré poznám.
I: Jasné.
[...]
R: A hneď ľudia sa na mňa začali pozerať negatívne, pracovne i nepracovne, že môj partner
zarába viac, pretože on ako Slovák nemá žiadne obmedzenia ani predsudky spoločnosti a ja
som zarábal menej, ale stále som si mohol zo svojho zárobku kúpiť napríklad lepšie hodinky,
lepší počítač, lepšie oblečenie, tak som mal aj také skúsenosti v práci, že ma vedúci, ktorý ma
mal akože na vyučovaní na pozícii zástupcu vedúceho týral tým, že mi zobral z trezoru
napríklad môj mobil a moju peňaženku, pozeral sa koľko mám peňazí v hotovosti, bežne mám
okolo nejakých dvesto, tristo eur v prípade, že sa stane nejaká nelahodná situácia a musím si
jednoducho zaplatiť cestu domov, alebo opravu auta napríklad.
I: Uhm.
R: A on sa pozeral do mojej peňaženky a povedal: „Ako ty si môžeš dovoliť toľko hotovosti,
ako si môžeš dovoliť taký mobil a ako si môžeš dovoliť také oblečenie“, ako nie značkové, ale
ja som viac geeky guy, hej? Že mám rád také technické Playstation veci, tak som mal so sebou
takú tašku na rameno Playstation a bola tam predajňa blízko, že to bolo šesťdesiat euro, no on
si zobral moju tašku zo stoličky a spýtal sa: „Ako si ty môžeš toto dovoliť?“ [...]
I: Ak sa môžem inak, prepáčte, ešte vrátiť teda, tá úplne, úplne pôvodná otázka, či máte, či ste
priamo v práci mali inú komunikáciu s heterosexuálnymi kolegami, kolegyňami než s LGBT,
alebo...?
R: Áno. Áno, áno.
I: Jasné. A s tým, že to bolo čisto teda tematicky alebo to bolo ešte niečo okrem obsahu niečo...
niečo formálne?
R: No napríklad veľakrát sa stalo, že jednoducho ja som tam ako asistent, prídem do
komunikácie a povedia mi napríklad rodičia alebo susedia, že som veľmi milý ako človek, či
105
mám priateľa a potom poviem áno, a oni povedali: „to sa nedá vidieť z vášho správania ani z
hovoru“, boli takí veľmi akože vzrušení.
I: Hej.
R: Nič som neriešil, či je niekto LGBTI alebo nie a oni my sami hovorili, že prišli za suseda,
alebo za kolegu, alebo jednoducho rodičia a potom mi hovorili, že... takúto skúsenosť som mal,
že pýtal... pýtala sa jedna pani na mňa, v mojom vzťahu, pretože sa snaží pochopiť LGBTI
spoločnosť a vzťah dvoch mužov...
I: Áno.
R: Pýtala sa na mňa v mojom vzťahu, kto je tu otec a má úlohu otca a kto je tu maminka, tým
spôsobom. A ja som sa na tú pani usmial a ona povedala: „Prepáčte, ja sa jednoducho bojím to
spýtať, ale pozerám na to, že jednoducho moje vnúča bude LGBTI, alebo moja dcéra môže
povedať po pár rokoch“, pretože tej pani, ktorú som poznal, dcéra mala spolužiačku a veľmi
dobrú kamarátku, ktorá mala deti, mala manželstvo desaťročné, potom ako zistila, že ju manžel
podvádzal otvorila si svoju myseľ a našla si aj priateľku, s ktorou sa zosobášila v Holandsku,
takže snažila sa pochopiť tú... ako sa to povie... tá core rozmýšľania LGBTI osoby.
I: Hej, hej.
R: A bolo to smiešne. Či ste maminka alebo ocinko ste v domácnosti? A stále sme ako dobrí
známi na Facebooku a vždy si gratulujeme aj k narodeninám, k Vianociam. Nikdy som sa nebál
komunikovať s ľuďmi. [...] Ľudia sú posledných desať rokov... koľko som ja na Slovensku?
Deväť rokov reálne... viac empatickí voči gay komunite.
I: Uhm.
R: Ale nie toľko empatickí voči aktivistom, ale skôr sú empatickí voči tým problémom, ktoré
jednoducho LGBTI osoba zažije. Buď pri zamestnávaní, buď jednoducho pri nákupoch, alebo
pri každodennom fungovaní v živote. Jednoducho sa cítia, uh... jednou časťou aj vinní a druhou
časťou aj zodpovední pre to, ako spoločnosť sa správa ku jednotlivcovi alebo ku skupine.
I: Uhm. Ja som skôr počul to, že po referende sa zhoršila tá situácia, že ľudia sa horšie správajú
po referende.
R: No čo bolo najhoršie, ja som bol pri samotnom referende ako aktivista, mňa vykopali
z električky a jednoducho ma aj zbili reálne tí akoby drsnejší chlapi, len kvôli tomu, že som
odmietol leták o referende a jednoducho som razantne povedal, že sa to mňa netýka, ľudia majú
právo na svoj život bez ohľadu na to, do akej skupiny patria. [...] Cez deň, na Kamennom
106
námestí v Bratislave som to zažil. A hneď ako som prišiel do svojej práce, bol som asistentom
v LGBTI spoločnosti, samozrejme moja šéfka to dala do novín, do Denníku N alebo SME.sk a
jednoducho o tom hovorila, že jej asistent, jej spolupracovník zažil šikanu a jednoducho týranie.
Ale čo ma razantne zrazilo, jednoducho psychicky aj fyzicky od toho človeka, že ja som
nedostal od nej nedostal spolupracovníkov, sociálne pracovníčky alebo psychologičky žiadnu
podporu za to, že som ja kvôli svojmu pochopeniu a podpory LGBTI komunity zažil šikanu a
fyzický útok.
I: Hej.
R: Nikomu sa nič akože nezmenilo správanie. A ja som potreboval ako podporu fyzicky, ako sa
ja dostanem naspäť domov, s električkou cestovať naspäť znovu do tej roboty. To je ten problém
v tých organizáciách na Slovensku, že veľa ich je s falošným… ako sa povie tá… s falošným
prístupom k LGBTI spoločnosti a viac sa zamerajú na to, že si vytvoria… uh… predstavenia,
že si vyrobia rôzne výstavy fotiek, jednoducho príbehov ľudí, krúžkov rôznych počas Pride-u,
ale nikdy sa nezamerali fyzicky a reálne na problémy skutočných ľudí a skutočné problémy.
Napríklad, keď som prišiel na Slovensko, poviem vám tú osobnú skúsenosť, a to môže aj môj
priateľ potvrdiť, partner. Stalo sa to, že som potreboval súrne právnu pomoc, aby sa mi podarilo
aspoň právne postúpiť pre LGBTI, či smieš urobiť coming out tu, pred cudzineckou políciou
alebo nie.
I: Uhm.
R: A prosil som tú organizáciu [meno organizácie], písal môj priateľ maily, ja som písal maily,
dohodla sa akože právnička, prišiel som, čakal som v dverách jedno stretko štyri hodiny,
neukázala sa, druhýkrát o týždeň, neukázala sa. Takto kašlali na mňa dva mesiace a ja som to
nakoniec vzdal.
I: Dva mesiace.
R: Vzdal som to a išiel som ku právničke, kde som pracoval. Právnička, ktorá je hetero nie my
prišla, pomohla, pomohla mi jednoducho založiť s.r.o.-čku, u nej si dať robiť plat, nič nechcela
za to aby som platil a pomohla mi vo všetkom bez ohľadu na to, že som gej. To som zažil a to
sa ma dotklo psychicky a začal som po štyroch alebo piatich rokoch… ja som prišiel v 2011…
v 2011-tom som prosil tú organizáciu. Začal som pracovať ako asistent, ako dobrovoľník chcem
robiť pre LGBTI ako asistent, bolo tam úplne minimálna zložka, koľko sa platí na hodinu, ale
chcel som pomáhať ľuďom. Nie kvôli zárobku, ale jednoducho aby som bol od pomoci.
107
[...]
I: Ak sa rozprávame o pracovisku a tých allies, ako viete rozpoznať allies, či už medzi svojimi
kolegami...?
[...]
R: Tak tých nie je ťažko spoznať, pretože oni majú vždy... uh... tú zaujatosť o LGBTI ľudí,
jednoducho keď chcú pomôcť, tak sami prídu a otvorene povedia, že majú doma... uh... my sme
mali takú organizáciu, že veľakrát sme mali skutočnosť takú, že nemáme veľa nábytku na
posedenie, stoličiek. Tak ľudia, ktorí sú allies jednoducho prišli a povedali: „Viete čo, ja mám
nejaký záhradný nábytok, stoličky, ktoré sa dajú rozkladať, tak môžem to priniesť, aby ste mali
viac ľudí, aby sa tam mohlo dať stretnúť a rozprávať“.
I: Hej, hej.
R: To je jednoducho, čo ma robilo veľmi nadšeným, že mali jednoducho s nami ten záujem
a chceli pomôcť.
[...]
I: To… to hlavne hovoríte o tých… o tých neziskovkách a keby sme sa bavili o tých ďalších,
kde ste robili napríklad vedúceho toho marketingu a tak ďalej, tam to asi nie je také, že väčšina
tých…
R: Je.
I: …allies príde…
R: Tiež. Tiež. Ja som robil ako marketing aj fotograf a jednoducho som na základe tých mojich
pracovných skúseností... v banke každý klient má nejaké... nejaké percentá na uvoľňovanie
úrokov a také podobné veci, ale ja jednoducho kým so bol klientom a jednoducho som sa snažil
urobiť čím viac dobre bez ohľadu na to, či som LGBTI alebo nie, jednoducho tá moja
spolupracovníčka, ktorá bola hetero počula, že žijem s partnerom a chcem sa jednoducho usadiť
v Bratislave, mal som neskutočne veľký problém, že veľa podn... majiteľov bytov nechcú
podnájomcu zo zahraničia, cudzincov. Jednoducho utekajú pred tým ako diabol pred krížom.
A ona jednoducho prišla z druhej strany banky a povedala mi čo vy ste pre nás urobil dosť
dobrých vecí, dajte mi šancu pomôcť vášmu partnerovi. On je Slovák a on jednoducho môže
dostať benef... lepšiu hypotéku. Ale nie akože darčekom, ale jednoducho na úkor tých svojich
peňazí, čo som mal dostať svojím akože projektom, alebo s... alebo svojou prácou lepšie
povedané.
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I: Paráda, to je super.
R: To je taká win-win situácia a jednoducho ľudia sa sami... zaujalo ju to, že aké mám
podmienky ako LGBTI osoba na Slovensku a to je veľa ľudí takých. Teraz som videl článok,
že trans ľudia majú ťažké obdobie na hľadanie práce... uh... ale v Bratislave je to úplná... sprosto
povedané kokotina. V Bratislave každý dostane úplne šancu nájsť si prácu. Nepozerajú na to...
je inak... majú vo firme gej... majú pohovor niekoho, kto je homofóbny a je z východu, tak
jednoducho vtedy nemáš šancu nájsť si prácu. Ale tí ľudia, ktorí pracujú vo veľkých
spoločnostiach v Bratislave, dôležité je, že ich zamestnanec má miesto, kde prespať, že má dosť
peňazí aby prežil a jednoducho má dosť času, aby uživil seba aj tú svoju LGBTI rodinu.
I: Hej. Hej.
R: Takto to... Ľudia sú na západe viac západne orientovaní, jednoducho nedbajú na to. Ja
hovorím o Bratislave, ale mám dosť klientov, dosť tých ally-ov z Košíc, z Nitry, aj z Banskej
Bystrice napríklad. Jeden z veľkých podporovateľov, allies, ale hovoríme publicly allies, ale
ten človek bol partnerom súčasného... uh, bývalého premiéra Pellegriniho.
I: Áno, áno.
R: On prišiel, jednoducho ponúkol pomoc v materiály. Nie v peniazoch, ale jednoducho vedel
obstarať materiál, ktorý potrebujeme za lacnejšie peniaze. Sú to ľudia, jednoducho, ktorí je
jedno odkiaľ prichádzajú, pomôžu. Ale čím viac ľudia žijú v okruhu dedín, tak jednoducho boja
sa, že ich rodina ich odsúdi za to, že podporujú LGBTI spoločnosť.
[...]
Médiá a tí jednotlivci, ktorí majú vplyv na niečo, jednoducho menia ten pohľad na LGBTI ľudí.
[...]
I: Pýtam sa na to, že či ste priamo na pracovisku, v rámci práce zažili hocijakú formu
heterosexizmu, čo môže ísť od... respektíve heterosexistickej diskriminácie? Tým myslím úplne
hocičo od heteronormativity, cez násilný outing, to ste zažili a...
R: Zažil som v tej práci poslednej v [meno firmy], že jednoducho... uh... keď som išiel napríklad
po práci domov, do šatní, tak hovoril, že sa ponáhľam, že by som fajčil kokot svojmu chlapovi,
alebo niekomu na rohu. Tak... takým spôsobom.
I: Akože vás... vás povzbudil, že aby tomu človeku ste toto, či...?
R: Nie, to mi vedúci povedal. Že sa ponáhľam z práce že sa rýchlejšie ponáhľam, aby som
niekomu vyfajčil na rohu.
109
I: Uhm.
R: To je to trošku také negatívne a heterácky vplyv a plus to, že jednoducho tlačil... uh...
veľakrát hovoril, že som tučná sviňa a tučný teploš.
I: Uhm, to ste hovorili to...
R: To bolo na poslednom zamestnaní.
I: Hej. A to ste hovorili... s tým teplošom ste hovorili aj v tej inej firme, že ste mali a že vám
tak hovoril, pred všetkými kolegami vás tak označil.
R: Áno, áno.
I: Keď... keď sa môžem spýtať, ono je to trochu komplexnejšie, ale kľudne sa vyjadrite ku
každému z toho, alebo keď je to spoločné, tak naraz, ale jednak to s tými teplošmi, jednak to
s tými narážkami, jednak to s tým násilným outingom a tak ďalej... uh... Ako ste tú... tú situáciu
zvládali, respektíve nahlásili ste tie veci, alebo ako sa zmenila vaša komunikácia s tým
človekom, alebo s celým tým kolektívom potom?
R: Snažil som sa s tým človekom jednoducho nájsť spoločné slovo. Jednoducho intelektuálnym
spôsobom pristúpiť k nemu asertívne, povedať prepáč, ale toto... to nemá zmysel.
I: Áno.
R: Ja som tu prišiel ako profesionálny človek a čo sa deje v mojej posteli, v mojom súkromnom
živote, to nie je ani subjektom ani objektom na riešenie v mojej práci...
I: Áno.
R: ... prvá vec. Čo sa týka kolektívu, ten kolektív bol ticho v tých situáciách, ale potom, keď
som išiel na obed, alebo domov, alebo by som stretol v meste, tak sa ľudia neskutočne rýchlo
náhlili v moje náručie aby ma objali, že im je ľúto, že nemohli ukázať podporu mne, pretože by
boli aj oni šikanovaní.
I: Áno.
R: Takže tu je jednoducho problém moci zamestnávateľa, alebo šéfa, alebo jednotlivca, alebo
šéfa organizácie, alebo jednoducho samej organizácie a nie problém ako komunity. Všetci títo
kolegovia prišli objať a keď som dostal výpoveď v práci tak som povedal, že ja sa jednoducho
nemôžem prispôsobiť, aby som robil ešte nadčasovo viac za nula peňazí a jednoducho povedal
som, že trpí môj fyzický stav z tohto, že nespím cez noc, nespím cez deň a plus ma šikanuje
keď prídem do práce, že som teplý.
I: Áno.
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R: Tak tí kolegovia chápali jednoducho, že som nedokázal, pretože to bolo inštrumentované,
aby som sám sa vzdal. Ale som sa vzdal z tohto, že som potreboval viac porozumenia že som
gej, ale nie som zlý človek, že ja jeho rodinu oberám o peniaze, že ja jeho príbuzných oberám
o prácu. Snažil som sa mu ustúpiť, ale problém je ten tohto jednotlivca, že on musí mať moc
a keď on nemá moc, tak jednoducho on bude týrať bez ohľadu na to, aké kvality nejaký človek
má. Mňa všetci ľudia objali, že som neskutočne zlatý, robím koláčiky, prinášam do práce, vždy
som slušný, keď niekto plače alebo má ťažký deň prídem, pomôžem a stalo sa to, že napríklad
moja starká zomrela a v práci mi nedovolili, aby som išiel na pohreb, čo je také neľudské.
I: Uhm.
R: Ja som povedal: „Ale ja potrebujem na ten pohreb“ a oni mi povedali „keď pôjdeš na pohreb,
tak dostaneš výpoveď okamžitú, hodinovú“. A bol som tri dni pred koncom skúšobnej doby
a dostal som okamžitú výpoveď kvôli pohrebu. Toto som nečakal na Slovensku, pretože
spoločnosť bola pod slovenským majiteľom... slovenskí majitelia, ale jednoducho tam
pracovali cudzinci.
I: Hej.
R: A snažili sa zneužívať cudzincov, aby cudzinci robili čokoľvek, len aby nestratili ten
pracovný pobyt. Povolenie pobytové. To je najhoršie na Slovensku, že tých cudzincov je veľmi
málo, aj tie úrady sú neochotné pre cudzincov.
[...]
Respondent Nr. 10 (partial translation)
I: Good. So, I’ll begin with the first question and it’s sort of an expected one: have you or did
you consider coming out at your work?
R: I did at work and during job interviews.
[...]
I: Okay and did you have... if you were saying that you did also during those job interviews,
did you have only positive experience or also some negative? Purely during job interviews.
R: Mostly negative during job interviews, because people in Slovakia have prejudice against
everything that is different or foreign very often and belonging to LGBTI and being a foreigner,
it was more prone to be manipulated from the side of an employer or a company for which I was
working and they simply often had the feeling that if I belong to LGBTI community, I’m weaker
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and simply let myself be manipulated by people that I’d be working overtime or under
disadvantaged conditions. In the first company where I used to work I was a part of a call center
and I had the experience that people knew I was LGBTI, they didn’t know whether I’m gay or
something else, but they tried to get such a performance from me that I was working in a sitting
position for an hour and had to be standing for another hour and just communicate via telephone
line and when I sat down, I’d just have to send emails and recommend in a marketing way how
to simply solve some situations and a conference company could get a customer. And often
a man came, who was a Slovak and just told me: “You know what? You’re a basic faggot and
you are going to do everything I want you to, you have to come fifteen minutes before the start
of working hours. If you won’t, this one from India, this Indian… will be working at your place
for 350 euros net.” And I used to work for some 450, 500 euros in net. So… uh… it was also
an abuse from a financial point of view, but the worst thing was that he called me a faggot in
front of the whole team, in front of the whole room. Because he was a Slovak with some Czech
dialect, or he used to live in Czech Republic for some time. So, this is what I experienced at
first and it has marked me for a very long time, because since then, I’ve also got a change…
uh… a change of sleep. I just couldn’t sleep at night, because I had the work… after work I just
had to find the customers, the clients at 3 AM.
I: Yeah.
R: And often, for example even when I brought lunch, they were laughing at me just like “Thank
you babe” like because I brought the lunch and many times, I’ve experienced that one of the
managers just wanted every newcomer to come to his office and just give him a blowjob. Just
to please him orally. Every person. And I just came, brought like... I like to cook, I like to bake,
and I brought him cakes and said: “Here you have for the first day, sweeten your day” and
I came out of there and then everybody started clapping hands that I was able to resist him, that
I didn’t give him what he wanted.
I: It’s like regularly even heterosexual people came and gave him like... that?
R: Those are simply people who work for the foreign market, and they just must have the feeling
of power over the one that comes as a new... a new person into the team or the company.
[...]
R: Yes, and I had the luck that for instance, my partner who heard about it all how they
physically like... they simply enjoyed destroying me completely, so he just sent an anonymous
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initiative to the Labor Office as well as to the Labor Inspectorate and within a week when
I finished there, even my boss and the main boss of sales and marketing finished.
I: Well, that’s rational. By the way, I would come back to the coming out. And as you’ve said
that you… well, you’ve said you’ve also had it at a job interview at work, at the workplace.
How often did you have to do it? Was it in every job as a one-time thing or was it something
you had to do regularly with new customers and so on?
R: Well, uh... In some companies I did... I didn’t do it by will, but they just pointed a finger at
me.
I: So, like a forced coming out, right?
R: Yes, just as they wanted to or not, they had a LGBTI person employed in the company. And
there were also some nicer examples in companies, they just tried to point out the tolerance
between people. So, they rather exploited my coming out to lure more of those creditworthy
clients.
I: Uhm. Uhm. And that happened regularly, right?
R: Yes, but it was very negative under the surface, that they were keeping me more as a keychain
to get more creditworthy foreign clients, because for example, if some company collaborates
with [ame of a company], [name of a company], they pay attention, that also the human rights
of LGBTI are being taken care of.
I: Yeah.
R: So, simply put, those smaller companies try to apply for a better favor of the big ones.
I: Right. Right. And… and the, when… has your communication with those colleagues of yours
changed after the coming out?
R: Yes.
I: In what sense if you can specify?
R: Well, for example… I don’t know how it is abroad, but for instance in Slovakia, something
like a monogamous relationship more or less doesn’t exist and people often try to just get under
my underwear, even though I just said at the beginning that I’m a polite person, I respect
everyone, I have a partner at home who I simply love, I simply try to support him in all possible
situations. Many people also in those LGBTI organizations tried to just seduce me, that I don’t
violate them, for example, or just not put that much weight on the sexual intercourse. They were
just too…
113
I: I don’t understand how...
R: ...they were just too excited about my appearance, so they just wanted to go through that
folder, that they want to have something with me, and they just thought that I’m that liberal,
that I’m in an open relationship, which is quite present in the LGBTI community in Slovakia.
[...]
I: Did you have in those... at those workplaces... well, of course that... on one hand we’re talking
about those non-profit organizations where you had those other LGBTI people... maybe you
know the term “ally” when you worked there, and...
R: And I just used to communicate with them and even had a direct communication with parents
and also with those people who support LGBTI people.
I: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
R: Concerning this that they, for example, have a child or somebody in the family who belongs
to the LGBTI community.
I: Yeah, but I want to ask you, whether your communication was different or... was it different
with LGBTI at work or with these allies to the one with other heterosexual colleagues?
R: I will tell you for real, I have some acquaintances from a paddock who I met because of this
at work, and I just wasn’t the first one who belonged to the LGBTI community. They were
understanding, tried to help, simply communicate. There are enough people who just aren’t
concerned with it, whether someone is LGBTI, but they just look at their personality and there
are people belonging to the LGBTI community who are hungry for attention, they simply need
more and more attention and crucify themselves in public that they are the victim of the whole
society and that they deserve maximal financial support, for instance. [...] LGBTI people are
just a burden for the Slovak government and Slovak society, but international organizations and
international... governments are simply trying to elevate human rights to a different level than
the post-communist one that is currently more or less present. [...] And the mečiarism12 hasn’t
vanished yet, because people that want to become successful politicians are grabbing on the
post-communist opinion about LGBTI people and simply about the family values. Also because
of this the referendum about family happened and it has also happened, that historically in
Slovakia, the man on the radio which later belonged to France, to a French company, supported
the LGBTI community in the 1990s and organized balls with the organization, all these
12
Autocratic political system under former prime minister Vladimír Mečiar in the post-socialist era in Slovakia
114
activities. Until the radio got to the private hands of... uh... Kollár13. Simply... uh... the radio
promotes itself as a one for traditional families and extreme family values.
I: Yeah.
R: And everything against LGBTI people. And people I know, who used to work in radios, I’m
not talking about [name of a company], who belonged to the LGBTI community, were abused
until they gave up and left Slovakia.
[...]
R: It was never looked at their personal quality, professionality, but just always, when they tried
to influence them, they just pointed out that they belong to the LGBTI community and that they
should just shut up. That happens a lot in Slovakia, in many companies I know.
[...]
I: If I can, by the way, excuse me, come back, the very first question, whether you have or did
have a different communication with your heterosexual colleagues than with LGBT ones, or...?
R: Yes. Yes, yes.
I: Right. So, was it only concerning the topic or was it something else than content, something...
something formal?
R: Well, for example, many times happened, that I’m just there as an assistant, I enter the
communication and the parents or neighbors tell me that I’m very nice as a person, whether
I have a boyfriend and if I say yes, they told me: “it can’t be apparent from your acting nor your
speech”, they were like very excited.
I: Yeah.
R: I didn’t bother whether someone was LGBTI or not and they told me themselves that they
came because of their neighbor or colleague, or just as parents and then they told me that...
I had such an experience, that she asked... one lady asked me about my relationship, because
she was trying to understand the LGBTI society and a relationship of two men...
I: Yes.
R: She asked me, who is the father in my relationship and who is the mommy, this way. And
I smiled at the lady, and she said: “Excuse me, I’m simply afraid to ask that, but I have in mind
that simply my grandchild will be LGBTI, or my daughter can tell after a few years”, because
13
Boris Kollár: Slovak businessman and politician, leader of a Slovak political party Sme Rodina (“We Are
Family”), Speaker of the National Council of the Slovak Republic
115
the daughter of that lady, who I know, had a classmate, a very good friend who had kids and a
ten-year marriage, and after she found out that her husband had been cheating on her, she
opened up her mind and found a girlfriend whom she married in Netherlands, so she was trying
to understand the… how is it called… that core thinking of an LGBTI person.
I: Yeah, yeah.
R: And it was funny. Whether you’re a mommy or daddy in the household? And we’re still good
acquaintances on Facebook and always congratulate each other on birthdays, on Christmas. I’ve
never been afraid of communicating with people. [...] People have been for the last ten years...
how long am I in Slovakia? Ten years really... more empathetic towards the gay community.
I: Uhm.
R: But not that empathetic towards activists, but more empathetic towards the issues that
an LGBTI person simply experiences. Either by entering a new job, or just at shopping or in
everyday functioning in life. They just feel, uh... for one part also guilty and for the other part
even responsible for how the society treats an individual or a group.
[...]
I: If we’re talking about workplace and those allies, how can you recognize allies, either among
your colleagues...?
[...]
R: Well, it’s not hard to recognize them, because they always have the... uh... interest in LGBTI
people, if they just want to help them, they come by themselves and say openly that they have
at home... uh... we used to have an organization, where many times it was a reality, that we
didn’t have much furniture to sit on, chairs. So, people who are allies simply came and said:
“You know what? I have some garden furniture, folding chairs, I can bring that so you can have
more people, so that one can meet and talk there”
I: Yeah, yeah.
R: It’s just something that made me very happy that they just had the interest and wanted to
help.
[...]
I: There… there you are mainly talking about those... about those non-profit organizations, and
if we were to discuss the others, where you were, for example doing the head of marketing and
so on, it’s probably not like the majority of those…
116
R: It is.
I: …allies come…
R: As well. As well. I worked for a marketing and as a photograph and just based on my work
experience... in bank, every client has some... percent for release of interests and similar things,
but when I was a clients, I tried to do as much regardless of whether I’m LGBTI or not, my coworker, who was straight heard that I had lived with my partner and that I just want to settle
down in Bratislava, I had an extremely huge problem that many... landlords don’t want a tenant
from abroad, foreigners. They just run away from it as a devil from the crucifix. And she simply
came from the other side of the bank and told me, how many good things have you done for us,
give me a chance to help your partner. He’s a Slovak and he just can receive a benef... a better
mortgage. But not as a gift, but on behalf of the money I was supposed to receive for my project,
or with...... for my work, better said.
I: Incredible, that’s great.
R: It’s such a win-win situation and people themselves just... she was intrigued by what
conditions do I have as an LGBTI person in Slovakia and there are many people like this. I’ve
seen an article now that trans people have a difficult time finding a job... uh... but in Bratislava,
it’s a complete... rudely said, bullshit. In Bratislava, everybody gets the total chance to find a
job. They don’t look at it... it’s different... they have a gay in company... they have someone for
a job interview who is homophobic and comes from the east, so then you just don’t have any
chance to find a job. But those people who work in big corporates in Bratislava, it’s important
that their employee has a place to sleep, enough money to survive and simply enough money
to feed themselves and their LGBTI family.
I: Yeah. Yeah.
R: That’s how it... People in the west are more western oriented and just don’t care about it. I’m
talking about Bratislava, but I have enough clients, enough of those allies from Košice, from
Nitra, even from Banská Bystrica, for example. One of the biggest supporters, allies, but we
say, “publicly allies”, but that person was a partner of current… uh, former prime minister
Pellegrini.
I: Yes, yes.
R: He came, simply offering help in material. Not in money, but he was just able to provide
material we need for cheaper money. Those are just people who help, no matter where they
117
come from. But the more people live on the countryside, they are simply afraid that their family
would bash them for supporting the LGBTI society.
[...]
The media and those individuals who have influence on something just change the view on
LGBTI people.
[...]
I: I’m asking whether you’ve experienced any form of heterosexism directly at workplace,
which could range from... or heterosexist discrimination? By that I mean anything from
heteronormativity, through forced coming out, which you’ve experienced and...
R: I’ve experienced in the last job in [name of a company], that just... uh... when I went home
after work, to the dressing rooms, he was said, why was I in such a hurry, whether it was to
suck my man’s dick or to someone on the corner. That... in that manner.
I: Like he... encouraged you to do this to that person or...?
R: No, my boss told me this. That I’m in a more hurry from work in order to give a blowjob to
someone on the corner.
I: Uhm.
R: That’s like a bit negative and the straight influence plus that he was simply pressuring... uh...
many times he said that I was a fat swine and a fat faggot.
I: Uhm, you’ve said it...
R: That was in the last job.
I: Yeah. And you’ve said... you’ve said there was a talk about a “faggot” in the other company
as well and that he called you like that, that he called you so in front of all the colleagues.
R: Yes, yes.
I: If... if I can ask, maybe it’s a bit more complex, but feel free to express yourself to each one
of them, or if it’s general, then at once, but on one hand, that with the “faggots”, on the other
hand with those remarks, then with the forced outing and so on… uh… How did you… manage
the situation, or have you reported those things, or has the communication changed with that
person or with the whole collective afterwards?
R: I just tried to find a common way with that person. Just to treat them in an intellectual manner
assertively, saying sorry, but this... this has no sense.
I: Yes.
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R: I came here as a professional and what happens in my bed, in my private life is neither
a subject nor an object to solve at my work...
I: Yes.
R: ... first thing. Regarding the collective, that collective was silent in these situations, but then,
when I went for a lunch, or home, or to meet up in the city, they rushed incredibly fast in my
arms to hug me, that they were sorry they couldn’t show me support, because they would be
bullied as well.
I: Yes.
R: So, there’s simply a problem in the power of the employer, or the boss, or an individual, or
the head of the organization, or just the organization itself and not a problem of the community.
All these colleagues came to hug me and when I was fired from work, I said I just can’t adjust
to work even more overtime for zero money and I just said that my physical condition was
suffering from not sleeping at night, not sleeping during the day and plus he was bullying me
when I came to work that I was queer.
I: Yes.
R: [...] I tried to step aside, but the problem is on the side of that individual, that he has to have
power and if he doesn’t have power, he’s going to abuse no matter what qualities one has.
Everyone hugged me, that I was incredibly nice, I make cakes, bring them to work, that I’m
always polite, when someone’s crying or has a hard day, I come, help and it happened, that for
example, my grandma died and they didn’t allow me at work to go to the funeral, what is like
inhumane.
I: Uhm.
R: I said: “But I need to go to that funeral” and they told me: “If you come to the funeral, you’ll
receive an immediate, hourly notice”. And I was three days before the end of the probationary
period, and I received an immediate notice because of the funeral. I didn’t expect that in
Slovakia, because the company was under a Slovak owner… Slovak owners, but there were
simply foreigners working there.
[...]
Respondent Nr. 11
I: Začneme tým, či si vo svojej práci mal, alebo zvažoval coming out. [...]
119
R: Uh... No nezvažoval, pretože od začiatku to všetci vedeli.
I: Hej.
R: A tým pádom to nebolo nutné. Že ako keby som tam deväť rokov, v telke a to je také
prostredie, kde je to úplne normálne.
I: Hej.
R: A nemusíš... Hlavne akože ma poznali tí ľudia predtým trochu, takže všetci vedeli.
I: Uhm. Čiže úplne od začiatku, nemuselo to byť viacnásobne, jednorazová vec proste, že prišiel
si a...
R: Ani to nebola ako keby jednorazová vec, lebo to by bolo ako keby mne mala kolegyňa
oznámiť, že je heterosexuálka, takže...
I: Jasné. Jasné, jasné. Okej, a potom môžeme ísť na ďalšiu otázku predpokladám, a to je, že či
tvoja komunikácia s heterosexuálnymi kolegami je v niečom iná než s homosexuálnymi,
respektíve s allies.
R: Ono asi záleží, že s kým, že s každým mám špecifický vzťah. S každým normálnym, úplne
nadštandardné vzťahy máme, s tým, že keď tam mám nejakých heterosexuálnych macho
kolegov, tak si ja robím srandu z nich a oni zo mňa, všetko v rámci srandy samozrejme, ale iba
tým sa to teda líši, že niekde o tom vtipkujeme, s niekým sa o tom ani ako keby nebavíme
a mám dokonca takého kolegu, s ktorým si akože robím srandu, že vždy chodím... lebo on má
kávovar v kancelárii a vždy naňho žmurkám keď si robím kávu a on sa smeje a minule mi
povedal, že... že radšej by zabil mačku ako skúsil niečo so mnou, ale to sú práve tie fóry, že
máme tak nastavenú tú hranicu. To ja vo všeobecnosti mám strašne rád taký až humor za
hranicou a čierny a on tiež, takže v tomto sa veľmi akože dopĺňame. Ale nikdy som sa nestretol
s tým, že niekto by mal proti mne niečo.
I: To nemyslím čisto negatívne, ale aj pozitívne, že boli proste ľudia, ktorí tvrdili, že v práci pri
teplých kolegoch ďalších vedia sa viacej uvoľniť, ja neviem, budú hovoriť o nejakých iných
veciach s heterosexuálnymi kolegami, inak budú mať prirodzenejšiu komunikáciu, čo asi nie je
úplne...
R: Myslím, že to mám úplne so všetkými úplne rovnako.
[...]
I: Okej. Ďalšia otázka je ohľadom allies, poznáš ten pojem, proste spojenci, a ako ich ty vieš na
pracovisku rozoznať na základe komunikácie?
120
[...]
R: Tým, že som to takto aj ako keby nevnímal, to je pre mňa nový pojem a ja si myslím, že my
sme tak ako keby otvorená komunita v tej práci, a keď sa bavíme na sociálnych sieťach, tak
každý sa ako keby zapojí do toho, čo ho možno naserie, čo sa deje vo svete a to je úplne jedno,
že či je to na tému homosexuality, alebo antivaxerov, alebo... alebo ja neviem, niekde nejakej
politickej situácie, a tým pádom som sa nad tým nikdy nezamýšľal, pretože mám pocit, že každý
skoro v práci je skôr tak liberálne nastavený, a keď je nejaká téma, ktorá rezonuje, tak občas
vidím nejaký príspevok, že zavesí, čiže... že aha, kokoti zase idú riešiť hento tamto, hej?
Ale...uh... všetkých by som ich dal v tomto asi na jednu rovinu, úplne. Asi možno len presne to
obmedzenie vnímam tak, že... že tí, čo viac využívajú sociálne siete a tí, čo menej využívajú
sociálne siete, tým pádom mám k tomu ako keby obmedzenejší prístup, k tým, čo menej
využívajú sociálne siete.
I: Čiže v podstate ide ti o to, že o kom viacej vieš ohľadom názorov.
R: Ale áno, že... že v práci málo kedy nejak tak riešime nejaké témy. Bavíme sa o práci, bavíme
sa o súkromí, ale... ale nijak o tom, že či sa niekto chystá na Pride, alebo podporiť registrované
partnerstvá, to nie sú naše témy.
I: Jasné, jasné, jasné. Ide tu len o to, že či... sú práce proste, kde sa museli zamerať ľudia, že či
už kolegom dajú coming out alebo niečo, na základe toho, že sú nejak starší, mladší, je to žena,
muž, majú nejaké politické názory, sú z nejakého regiónu, alebo nie sú a na základe toho ich
brali, za spojencov, alebo nie. Alebo na základe komunikácie.
R: Uhm, nezisťujem to tak.
I: Nikdy si to tak nemusel riešiť.
R: Uhm.
I: Super. Okej a potom... potom ideme na úplne poslednú otázku [smiech] a to je, že či si zažil
nejakú formu heterosexistickej alebo transfóbnej diskriminácie, môže to byť na tebe, môže to
byť na niekom inom, a to môže byť už úplne cez heteronormativitu, čo asi v tvojom priemysle
nie, alebo násilný coming out, narážky, ohováranie, nevhodné vtipy, ostrakizmus, úplne hocičo
takéto.
R: Myslím si, že ani s týmto som sa nestretol.
I: Okej.
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R: A ak som sa stretol s nejakými narážkami alebo vtipmi, tak to bolo presne akože v rámci
toho, že... že máme tak nastavenú komunikáciu a máme veľmi dobrý vzťah, a ja napríklad
akože... o mne je napríklad tiež známe aj v práci, vlastne všeobecne v mojich okruhoch, že ja
sa niekedy zo srandy hrám na homofóba, hej? Akože, že ja takým štýlom, že „buzerant“, že...
že.... Takže... takže ako keby...uh... keď niekde nejaký kolega má takú poznámku, že mi povie,
že vy buzeranti ste všade, ako zo srandy, tak ja, že viem, ja by som to strieľal, tak akože...
[smiech] že až tak máme to nastavené. Takže ani s tým som sa ako keby nestretol.
I: Ah, super, okej. Ani... akože keby som sa veľmi hrabal, tak si nerobil žiadnu inú prácu
predtým alebo tak, že si išiel do Superstar rovno...?
R: Ja som len spieval predtým. Len som spieval predtým.
I: Ok, dobre, pohodička. Ani brigádu, ani nič také?
R: Nie.
I: Dobre.
R: Od sedemnástich v podstate som v tomto ako keby svete, a tu nikdy nebolo také, že by som
sa stretol s... Ja som sa vo všeobecnosti, okrem sociálnych sietí, nestretol s nie... s nejakými
takými narážkami, alebo neviem, či sa ľudia ako keby mimo tých sociálnych sietí boja. Akože
nejaké pokriky na ulici, ale v práci určite nie.
[...]
Respondent Nr. 11 (partial translation)
I: We’ll begin with whether you’ve had or considered a coming out at your job [...]
R: Uh... I haven’t considered it because everyone knew from the beginning.
I: Yeah.
R: And because of that, it wasn’t necessary. Like I’ve been there, in the TV for nine years and
it’s an environment, where it is completely normal.
I: Yeah.
R: And you don’t have to... those people had known me a bit before, so everyone knew.
I: Uhm. So, since the very beginning, it didn’t have to be multiple times, just a one-time thing
that you came and…
R: It wasn’t even like a one-time thing, because it would be as if my colleague came to announce
me that she’s heterosexual, so…
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I: Right. Right, right. Ok, and then we can get to the next question, and that is, whether your
communication with heterosexual colleagues is in some aspect different to the one with the
homosexual ones or with allies.
R: It probably depends on with whom, as I have a specific relationship with everyone. With
everyone normal, we have totally above-standard relationships, with the proviso that when I
have some heterosexual macho colleagues in there, I’m making fun of them and they from me,
all fun of course, but it only differs in that sometimes we make jokes about it, with someone we
don’t even like talk about it and I even have a colleague like that, with whom I make like jokes
that I always go… because he has a coffee machine and I always wink at him when I’m making
my coffee and he laughs and last time he told me that… that he would rather kill a cat than to
try something with me, but those are exactly the jokes, that we have the limit set that way. I
really like the kind of over-the-top humor in general, and a black one and he too, so we, like
really complement ourselves. But I’ve never encountered anyone having something against me.
I: I don’t mean it purely negatively now, but also in a positive way, that there just were people
who claimed that they can better unwind with queer colleagues at work, I don’t know, they’d
discuss different issues than with heterosexual colleagues, they would have, in a contrast, more
natural communication, which is probably not entirely…
R: I think I have it completely the same with absolutely everyone.
[...]
I: Ok. The next question is regarding allies, you know the term, simply allies, and how can you
recognize them at workplace, based on communication?
[...]
R: As I’ve never perceived it this way, it’s a new term for me and I think that we are like an
open community at work and when we are debating on social networks, everybody like joins in
what they are angry about, what happens in world and it doesn’t matter at all whether it’s on
the topic of homosexuality or antivaxxers, or… or I don’t know, some political situation
somewhere, and so I haven’t never thought about it, because I have the feeling that almost
everyone at work is rather liberally oriented and when there’s some topic that resonates, I
sometimes see some post that they put out, so… that look, the fools are again going to deal with
this and that, right? But… uh… I would probably put everyone on the same level in this, totally.
But maybe I only perceive exactly that limit that… that those who use the social networks more
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and those, who use the social networks less, so I have like I limited access to that, to those, who
use the social networks less.
I: So, for you it’s basically about who you know more regarding the opinions.
R: But yes, that… that we rarely discuss this kind of issues at work. We discuss work, we discuss
privacy, but… but not whether someone is going to Pride or support registered partnerships,
those are not our topics.
I: Sure, sure, sure. Here it’s only about whether… there are just jobs where people had to focus
on whether they’d come out to colleagues or something, based on whether they are somehow
older, younger, whether it’s a woman, a man, whether they have some political opinions, are
from some region or not and based on that, they took them as allies or not. Or based on
communication.
R: Uhm, I don’t look for it like that.
I: You’ve never had to deal with that.
R: Uhm.
I: Great. Ok and then… then we go for the very last question [laughter] and that is, whether
you’ve experienced any form of heterosexist or transphobic discrimination, it can be on you, it
can be on someone else and it can be completely from heteronormativity, which probably may
not be the case in your industry or a forced coming out, comments, gossip, inappropriate jokes,
ostracism, entirely anything like this.
R: I don’t think I’ve even encountered this.
I: Ok.
R: And if I’ve encountered some comments or jokes, it was exactly in the limits of… that we
have the communication set up this way and we have a very good relationship, and for example
I… for example, at work and actually in my circles in general I’m known for playing a
homophobe for fun, right? Like in the way that “faggot”, that… that… So… so like… uh… if
some colleague somewhere has a remark, that he says that you faggots are all around, like in a
funny way, then say that I know, I will shoot them, so like… [laughter] we have it set up even
like that. So, I haven’t like encountered this either.
[...]
R: I’m in this, like world since seventeen and here it has never been like I would encounter…
In general, basically I haven’t encountered outside the social networks any… any such
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comments or I don’t know if people are afraid outside those social networks. Like some shouts
on the street, but certainly not at work.
[...]
Respondent Nr. 12
I: So, the first question is kinda obvious... uh... have you or did you consider coming out at your
workplace?
R: Yes, and I… and I do it multiple times.
I: Multiple times, that means, if you do it regularly?
R: It’s because…uh… even now in my Zoom you can see “she/her”, “she” and “her”, like, sorry,
my pronouns “she/her”. I’m responsible within my job for… uh… for the whole Europe, like
for the whole EU, so I… I train colleagues in St. Petersburg, Israel, uh, all over Europe and
many people, especially in Russia, they ask me what does that mean, why do I have “she/her”
and that’s how I’m doing… not even coming out, but that’s how I’m doing the educational level
on the LGBTI community to people who are not aware just to know that with me, they have the
safe space to talk about.
I: I guess we might refer to it as a certain form of coming out, right?
R: Yup.
I: Uh, ok, great. So, you say that regularly, that means uh… almost every client, or customer?
R: I don’t work with any customers, but I have it in my signature as well, that I’m an ally and I
collaborate with… uh… an NGO called Diversity Pro and basically through that NGO, as well
as [name of a company] we are organizing a number of sessions, even right now, we have June:
the pride month, so we have prepared nine sessions. One of the sessions I am leading is called
“An Ally”, like how to become an ally, what does it even mean to be an ally, uh… how can you
become an active ally and what is it… what is a coming out of an ally as well. So… and that
we’re only… not only offering to our clients in Slovakia, but colleagues around Europe as well.
I: Ok, when I… when I just go back to the coming out once more... uh... did your
communication with these people change after the coming out somehow?
R: Ah, not really, because... uh... I’m a huge extrovert, so many people know me, also in the
pride community. I’m well-known for my ally work, and so mostly… uh… people are attracted
to me, who are interested in the knowledge that I have, so I don’t have a negative experience
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or, let’s say, a trash talk, because these people don’t even approach me. And because I have a
work… a type of a work where I literally collaborate almost with everyone and I… as I’ve
mentioned, I stated it in my… in my signature, it’s even in my name, it’s even in my LinkedIn
profile, all over the place, so people know it right away.
I: Oh, well, I didn’t mean uh… certainly didn’t mean only negative comments, negative
backlash, even some positive ones, maybe some people may be prone to blow off some steam
in the communication with you or maybe feel more… uh… eased or open after the coming out
as an ally. If it is the case, I… I don’t want to put words in your mouth that…
R: Hmm, hmm, hmm, we didn’t have. Because [name of a company], or even in my previous
company… uh, we have very strong policies to support not only LGBTIA communities, but the
others as well, and… and therefore… uh… it’s literally in our nature and in our culture to help
one other and that’s why I never have, like, that type of conversation at all.
[...]
I: Ok, so the next… the next question, is your communication with heterosexual colleagues, or
clients any different to that with other LGBT people?
R: Hmm… I wouldn’t say it’s different, I would need to literally get back ten years ago… uh,
more… we have twenty… twenty one… eleven years ago, that’s when I started to be active in
the community and that’s when I… uh… even learned more about myself, like, oh, I have a
term called “ally” and how can I start helping in the LGBTIA community and I literally started
to learn what does it mean lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and I started to learn the pronouns,
the correct terminology and I started changing, like back then, my whole conversation, or the
way I speak, so it’s not like suddenly today I’ve started to use different terminology when I
speak with someone from the LGBT community and someone from the outside, it’s the whole
way I speak and… and I taught this, for example, my husband. He also has numerous colleagues
from LGBTIA community, but he’s the typical heterosexual man that actually… uh… the gay
guys were scared of him, not only… even the heterosexual guys are scared of him, and I... and
I’ve taught him how to communicate, because people are scared to approach him and so he...
he changed it. Now, he also has a number of LGBTIA friends, who feel... I don’t wanna say
normal, but who feel at ease with him without any issues at all, just to better understand him.
And for me it’s more about having an open conversation… uh… an… and it’s not only for
LGBTIA community, but for anyone who can trust me enough in case they need help. But I
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started really changing my rhetoric eleven years ago. And be more… it’s more about like… like
uh… being careful of what do I say whether I say any stupid jokes, just because of jokes, but
didn’t even realize I was saying them, so I stopped saying them or listening the others and…
and literally thinking: “Would this harm someone if I say it out loud? Would it not? Is this
appropriate enough” and so this type of things that I changed.
I: Uhm. Great. Thank you very much. So, the next question is, how do you identify other allies,
or on the other hand, non-supporters at the workplace? Can you recognize them based only on
communication or are there any other factors that can play a role in this?
R: So, at [name of a company] we have a number of ways to do so. One is, we have these
absolutely awesome badges “I’m a Pride Ally” that uh… We’re literally preparing our
communication… uh… usually the November before the upcoming year. So, what does it mean?
So, we, as a Pride team, we sit together and check the year calendar for very specific dates. We
have March, the Transgender day, we have May 17th: IDAHO, June: The Pride month,
December 1st is the HIV International day and based on these dates, we are then preparing
sessions. So, right now for the June: The Pride month, we have prepared nine sessions literally
covering almost everything: queer identities, what is an ally, minority stress, we had… we had
panel discussion with older Pride chapter leaders. And then we are doing the communication
on the entire company here, in Bratislava, where the people can check the sessions, what is it
about, they can click it and include it in their Outlook calendars, so then, they can join the
session and that’s where they will learn more. They can also become members, we have a
specific site for that, through which they will click, become a member. If you become a member,
you will receive this badge, and then whenever, wherever you walk, we always need to have
the [name of a company] badge visible, and so people also have the badge visible. So, that way
you know that’s an ally. And you can always approach them. And this is… this one is valid
across the whole company around the world, so as soon as you have it, people can approach
you and that’s one way they know. The other way they can know is, you will include it into
your signature, in… in… in your email, like I have it that I am an ally and then people go: “How
did you include it in your signature? I want to be visible like you.” There you go, I’ll share it
with you, and you just paste it in your signature. Another way is, like in Zoom right now, you
can see, I include my pronouns and with my pronouns, I put it in my LinkedIn profile, so if
anyone approaches me, they know immediately.
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I: Yeah, they know it about you, and you know it about them when they’re active in some way,
but maybe talking on the more personal level, when… in the more personal communication, if
there are people, who don’t take any of these actions and don’t include maybe even pronouns
etc., uh… does it mean automatically that they are not an ally, or is there any way you can
recognize non-allies or allies in praxis?
R: No, that… Unless they approach us, or unless they become a member, we don’t know. We
only know you cannot discriminate, because we have policies for that in the company, so
nothing will happen to, like, any community, disabled community, LGBTIA, any community,
but to become an ally or a member, you need to become the member of that Pride. That’s the
only way we know that you are the member.
I: Uhm, okay. Okay. So, okay, then we can go to the last question, and that is, if you have
experienced any form of heterosexist or transphobic discrimination and threats at your
workplace? This can range from… anything from… uh… heteronormativity, through forced
outings, slurs, jokes, gossip, ostracism, uh… maybe with transgender people using wrong
pronouns or identity at the workplace. This could be something… you’ve experienced these
things by yourself, or you have seen others or… others being discriminated this way.
[...]
R: Okay, so actually, the transgender topic is still a big unknown topic, especially… at least in
our workplace, here in Bratislava and we’ve started with the topic this year. So, back in March,
that’s when we hosted the very first session: What does it even mean “transgender”. Uh… and
now, in June we are continuing with the session, when we are having a transgender person from
Spain, our colleague, who will be talking about his transition… uh… and all the details and
plus, we are going to have a parent of a non-binary child to talk about a few details. And then,
we want to continue, because we literally know nothing. And now, uh… why we are interested
in it? So, in one way, we have all the IT accesses, like your email address etc. and we have
realized we had one person, who… who was at the very beginning of the transition. And we
were not able… we were able to give him the support and… and be there for him, and if he
needed to talk to someone, we were there. But we were not help him from, let’s say a simple
thing as email change. At… at least your email would be with your new name and surname that
he wanted to use. And we struggled with the legal, because they have said, that according to
Slovak law, we can only legally change it if… tdtdtd. And so, right now, we are doing a lot of
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investigation how our internal systems, and if I… if we change your email address, is bound to
Slovak law. And we think it’s not, we just need lots of evidence to prove to our own legal system,
that this is how we can actually support transgender people, if we… if we use this specific field
in this specific system, but it allows the person to change the name, so the person, whenever
they speak directly to the clients or to the colleagues with their new name, with their new
identity, that’s how they feel, even if they’re at the beginning of the transition, but without
breaking the Slovak law. And… and we are literally at the beginning of this whole road, we
didn’t go fast. That’s something where we clash and that’s something when we’re having the
calls with other Pride chapters around Enea, how did they fix this. But again, even if they have
IT support, they have different legal systems in their countries and so, that’s why the IT support
didn’t have problem to change their email address, but it is problem here in Slovakia, so… uh…
I don’t wanna like… that was the only single case that I’ve seen that we were not able to change
the name, but the rest of the support, we were all there, supporting. So, there wasn’t a
discrimination from person to person. There was more… I can say discrimination, that we were
not able to help them, unless they started all the legal part as well according to the Slovak law.
I: [...] So, the communication and the social conditions were more or less unproblematic? I… I
can imagine it was…
R: Yeah, they were unproblematic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they were unproblem… We were there to
support and everything, we just technically… the technical part we were not able to support,
but morally, or… or even… sorry… when the person made a coming out towards all his
colleagues here in Bratislava, all around the world, they were very supportive, and they
immediately started approaching him with his new identity or the way the person felt. No issue
whatsoever, people understood, so… uh… I’m very proud of our colleagues. So, with the
negative part, never… so far, I’ve never seen it or experienced it.
I: So, you haven’t even experienced any other… uh… heterosexist issues at the workplace?
R: Hmm.
[...]
Respondent Nr. 13
I: So, the first question: have you or did you consider coming out at your workplace?
R: Uh, which place do you mean? The place where I work now or which place?
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I: Both places, both workplaces.
R: Where I work now, yes, I did from the first day as I’m old enough to have secrets.
I: Okay, great. So, your communication at workplace, did change somehow after you came out?
With your colleagues, clients, whoever.
R: No. No, because it was actually a few months before Covid started if I’m talking about [name
of a company], and I have colleagues in Bratislava, but my boss and my team is in the States,
uh… so basically, I didn’t have like any efficient interaction with colleagues in the office.
I: So, you don’t have any direct supervisor here in Bratislava, right?
R: Yes, just Marek is an indirect one.
I: Yeah, yeah. Uh… how often do you… did you have to come out? Was it like a one-time thing,
or was it regularly with… after your first coming out, with every new client, or… or…?
R: Hmm… it’s mainly with colleagues like… even in Bratislava, but sometimes like across the
world. Uh… it… it depends on, like if you work with someone. Like, mainly, my co-workers
are in States, uhm, and like with some of them I have better relationships, that sometimes, before
we start a meeting or call, we have some questions like “How are you?”, “What you did over
the weekend?”, so, if someone asks, I said how things are. So, it really depends on, but I’m not
really saying to everyone straightaway about myself, you know?
I: Uh... and... and I suppose in your workplace and in the Vranov region it was a bit different,
the experience with the coming out, right?
R: Uh… definitely, in Vranov I didn’t say it to anyone, only a few years ago to my parents, as
it’s the east, it’s catholic, including my parents and now, situation is much better than it was
twenty years ago, so it’s a long time ago. But definitely, twenty years ago, I was not brave
enough to talk about it in the east. That’s why I left.
I: Uh… okay. Would you say that your communication with heterosexual colleagues is… or
with your clients is any different to that with your… uh… with other LGBT colleagues if you
have some at your workplace, or maybe allies?
R: Uh… no. I think, Bratislava is, I think, the best place to be as the people are more tolerant,
more open-minded and etc. and even the work people who know, like, there was no change
whatsoever. Only what happens within Marek’s team… uh… he used to have a bigger team
than he has now, and a few members of his team, they always, like, used to have, like fun, jokes
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about gays, etc. So, that happened, I don’t know, once or twice, but it hasn’t been offensive,
so… so it was okay, so…
I: I will… maybe I’ll ask about it later on, so… Okay, so we’re on “How do you identify allies,
or on the other side non-supporters at your workplace?”.
R: We have some allies. As also [name of a company], I am a member of Pride. Pride, we call
it ERG group. We do have some allies and [name of a company] has twelve or I don’t know
how many ERG, it’s “employee resource group”. Basically, people group because of, I don’t
know, doing things together, it’s not only about sexuality, there is some group for, I don’t know,
women and IT and… and many topics. Uh… there are… there are some allies and then each
ERG, this month is Month of Pride, we’re doing some activities, but now because of Corona,
we can’t do anything… uh… in person, so we do it only virtually… uh… so… there are allies,
etc., but my opinion, people in [name of a company] are so busy that they don’t have time to
go to such calls. Uh, even myself, like I’m a member of ERG and we had the first online virtual
session today at 10 AM and I couldn’t join, because I have so much to do. And… yeah, that’s
why.
I: Sure. What I meant by that was more of a personal thing. When... more practical, when you
see... when you have some clients or some other colleagues, if you can identify them as a
supporter or non-supporter, maybe based on communication, some studies indicated that people
are more or less… more open with people who have certain age, certain political orientation,
certain… maybe without religion, etc., etc. So, these factors play a role if someone considers
this person as a possible ally or not. If that also is your case.
R: I don’t know, I can tell that I have only positive experiences and, you know, I didn’t have
any issues, so I cannot answer the question maybe.
I: Okay.
R: So…
I: Okay. So… so… that’s also partly an answer for the… for the last question. That is, if you’ve
experienced any form of heterosexist discrimination? That could range from forced outings,
jokes, slurs, possible ostracism, or some heteronormativity at the workplace. You’ve mentioned
also the jokes from Marek’s team, was there anything more?
R: Yeah. Uh… no, that was it, but I think it really depends on where you work in Slovakia and
for which company. At [name of a company], nobody would do something like that, where they
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would just ask a name, because that person could lose job, because [name of a company], it’s
American and it’s very tolerant across such things. Uh… so… and before, like again, I used to
work like, my last for jobs, they were for big corporates. Like, before I worked for [name of a
company], [name of a company] also was like German company, so they were also tolerant…
uh… but at [name of a company] I was only like out for only a few colleagues, but at [name of
a company] like… I don’t think about it. If somebody asks, or if conversation leads to this topic,
so I just say. And… and the first corporate job for me in Bratislava was… was [name of a
company] and there I didn’t tell anybody, so it was… and before all this big corporate
companies I used to work in hospitality industry, in hotels and even in England, I didn’t come
out and then, when I returned back to Slovakia… so, I didn’t come out in hospitality industry,
when I worked in hotels, so…
I: May I ask why?
R: It’s because of all this… it’s called prejudice that people might have or making jokes, exactly,
you don’t know what you can expect, so I just kept it for myself.
I: Have you experience some negative things, like these jokes and that’s why you didn’t come
out, or were you just afraid, because you know maybe about someone who experienced that,
or…?
R: Yeah, even in England I used to work for a small, family-run hotel and there was one… also
a supervisor, my colleague, gay and it could be, like, easily seen on him, so everybody like,
mainly like chefs in the kitchen, they were making jokes of him and etc. So, even in England,
it nis not everywhere so tolerant, it isn’t maybe what you would think.
I: Sure, sure. Uh… so… so… so, the only negative thing that you’ve maybe experienced in
Slovakia was in small jokes and something like that, right?
R: Yes, but for instance, uh… I don’t attend Pride events, because I wouldn’t feel there safe. A
few years ago, there was an attack during the Pride events in Bratislava, and on the other hand,
I don’t like Pride events, because sometimes, even for me it’s too much. Like, kind of… it’s
supposed to be a fight for our rights and… I can’t remember the other reason, but I think there’s
just too much showing off and it’s the other way of… of doing these things, a presentation
should be… should be in place, not how it is done currently, like… so…
132
I: Yeah. I’m just… I’m just gonna steer the conversation in the way I want it to go a bit here,
but… uh… when we are still at this… we’re sticking to the jokes, this… were these things
targeted at you personally, or was this more general?
R: Uh… you mean jokes with the boss in England, or…?
I: Here in Slovakia.
R: No, it was nothing to me personally, like, I can stand behind myself if it’s needed, so it was
never… I’m lucky I never had a bad experience, like… even like about jokes or etc.
I: So… so you’ve just overheard some jokes about queer people, some…
R: Yes.
I: Okay.
R: Yeah.
I: And you didn’t even need to respond anyhow, so…
R: Yeah… no. It was nothing serious, so I didn’t have like a feeling that I have to protect myself
or say something, even to protect someone else, because once in England, when they were
constantly making jokes of my colleague, so a few times I like stood up for him, but… yeah, a
few times I’ve done it, but it’s… it’s about people, like I wish, personally, to all homophobic
people to have kids who will be gays, lesbians or transgender. Honestly, I wish to them with all
my heart to… to have this experience, how… how difficult it is for someone to do come out...
uh… because it was also very difficult for me, but the older I was and thanks to what I did, like
that I moved out from east, so it was for me easier. But there are so many people who… who
didn’t do it and like… with few of them I’m still in touch and they… they are still, like having
secrets, and hiding, and pretending that they are someone else and etc., so… so.
I: Okay. So, you know about these people, who are still working there and have these issues?
R: Yeah, but I only mean people who live… who stayed and who live in the east of Slovakia.
I: Yeah, that’s what I mean, that’s what I…
R: Yeah, yeah. But like…
I: And that are here maybe…
R: Hmm, here I think no, maybe… no. like I don’t know anybody who in person, like who is
famous, but lots of famous people are hiding their sexuality, either because… uh… they don’t
wanna lose their jobs, or… it’s actually happened once. There used to be a movie in [name of a
Slovak television] and there was one actor, I think Jakub Lorencovič and once there was an
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article about his sexuality, that he’s gay, in some Slovak newspaper and then he lost the job. I…
I understand, but on the other hand, if famous people… uh… like other artists or people who
are in politics, if they wouldn’t be scared to talk about it, so I think it will be more accepted by
society.
I: Okay. Well, I was thinking more about someone you would know personally in… in the east,
I don’t know, some friends or somebody who has some job there and some work experience
maybe.
R: Hm m, no. They don’t have a bad experience, because they are… they’re hiding. So, they…
they’re not out, they didn’t do a coming out, so they’re hiding, so they don’t have a bad
experience.
I: Uhm.
R: Ah… so.
I: And where do these people work? Are they in some diverse industries and positions, or are
they more or less in one industry?
R: Uh… It’s diverse, like… like even I cannot remember exactly where.
[...]
Respondent Nr. 14
I: Prvá otázka je, že či ste teda spravili coming out vo svojom pracovisku. Alebo zvažovali
minimálne. Môže to byť hociktoré z pracovísk, kde mate skúsenosť.
[...]
R: Viete čo, coming out som na pracovisku taký verejný nerobil, ale pred blízkymi
spolupracovníkmi áno. Čiže pred všetkými nie, ale blízki to samozrejme vedeli a myslím si, že
to aj akceptovali.
I: Zmenila sa vám potom nejaká… tá komunikácia s nimi potom, či už pozitívne alebo
negatívne po coming out-e?
R: Nie. To je zaujímavé, že za komunizmu nie.
I: Uhm.
R: Za komunizmu nie. Tí ľudia sa správali stále rovnako. Uh… Myslím si, že to brali ako tak…
ako takú akože buď osobnú vec každého človeka… nebolo to vtedy také spolitizované.
I: Jasné. A ani potom po komunizme vlastne, po revolúcií?
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R: Ani po revolúcií tesne to nebolo.
I: Jasné. A keď sa môžem spýtať, uh… mali ste aj nejakých iných uh… kolegov z LGBT
komunity na pracovisku niektorom?
R: Hmm, musím porozmýšľať. Myslím, že nie.
I: Nie. Hmm. Dobre, v poriadku, uh… Jasné. Tak potom ďalšia otázka potom je, že či ste… na
základe čoho viete… poznáte, že sú tí allies, vlastne spojenci, takí podporujúci a potom sú tí
ľudia, ktorí vlastne negatívne… vlastne nepodporujú LGBT ľudí. Na základe čoho vy viete
rozoznať… uh… týchto allies, alebo takých…
R: Na základe bežnej komunikácie osobnej, pretože ja sa nevyhýbam v rozhovoroch tejto téme.
Nikdy som sa nestaval proti LGBTI a… uh… a zrejme títo ľudia aj pochopili o čo ide a podľa
reakcií kolegov viem, že kto ako reagoval. Čiže vlastne tých, ktorí to prijímali a tých ktorí to
akceptovali, tých som považoval za spojencov.
[...]
R: No tak v mojom prípade je tá moja situácia, by som povedal, špecifická, pretože ja som
v rokoch 1995 až 1999 študoval teologickú fakultu rímskokatolícku a bol som katolíckym
teológom.
I: Áno.
R: Napriek tomu som si to ja vždy dokázal zladiť. Poviem vám aj jednu vec, ktorá vôbec nie je
tajomstvom. V tom čase, keď som študoval bol dekanom teologickej fakulty... bol gej...
I: Uhm.
R: ...profesor, o ktorom to mnohí vedeli a možno že to verejne sa ani nejako ne...
nepertraktovalo, ale ja som to tiež vedel o ňom a on vedel o mne. Takže to bola jedna vec, ale
nehovorím, že tam boli nejaké vzájomné kontakty, alebo že by mi nejako vynikajúco pomáhal,
ale ja tieto... túto tému aj ako historik samozrejme ovládam. Ja som sa angažoval v laickom
apoštoláte aj za komunizmu. Nikdy som s tým nemal nejaký problém aby som si nedokázal
svoju vieru zladiť s... so svojím teda... uhm... správaním sexuálnym. To pre mňa nebol problém,
hoci pre mnohých ľudí to je problém... uh... čo teda chápem, že je to pre nich ťažké, ale na to
potrebuje človek veľmi veľa informácií, dostatočné vzdelanie, aby sa vedel v téme zorientovať,
čiže toto nebol pre mňa problém a aj to, že som ja bol teológ a že som skúmal témy štátu
a cirkvi... možno, že to bolo aj určitá taká hrádza, že časť ľudí si nedovolila nejako otvorene
toto atakovať, hoci musím povedať, že svojho partnera som nijako netajil... uh... chodil za mnou
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na pracovisko, zúčastňoval sa všetkých podujatí, ktoré sme mali, ľudia ho poznali a akceptovali,
takže... uh, hovorili o ňom ako o mojom priateľovi. Takže ja si myslím, že nie je to až také
kritické a vyhranené, ako sa to niekedy predstavuje a... alebo niekedy tá spoločnosť dokáže
prijať realitu.
I: Uhm. Jasné. Jasné. Potom je tá otázka vlastne, o ktorej sme sa už predtým rozprávali a to je,
že či ste zažili nejakú formu diskriminácie na pracovisku a to môže byť už len od nejakej
heteronormativity po nadávky, osočovanie, nepriame ohováranie, ostrakizmus... uh... niečo na
tento štýl.
R: No, ja som si nikdy nevšímal takéto narážky. Ja nie som takýto typ, ja som veľmi extrovertný
a som typ komunikatívny, čiže keď takéto veci by boli vznikli, vždycky sa vyjasnili
a samozrejme že je možné, že takéto poznámky boli, ale nikdy som to nepociťoval, ako že by
ma počas svojho pôsobenia, napríklad v historickom ústave SAV, ale vyskytla sa jedna vec,
ktorá je veľmi... akoby som povedal... markantná, a to bolo v roku 1995, keď som sa... som bol
riaditeľom cirkevného odboru ministerstva kultúry a v tom čase som bol aj v takom dosť úzkom
vzťahu s profesorom [meno], ktorý bol podpredsedom Národnej Rady a sme sa spolu stretávali
na pôde Klubu Kresťanských Iniciatív, a tam došlo k tomu, že ma... v určitom období ma
navrhli ako možného kandidáta na post veľvyslanca pri Svätej stolici. No a to... to samozrejme
trvalo určitú dobu a nakoniec to vyústilo do toho, že sám profesor [meno] ma zavolal a dôverne
mi oznámil, že Svätá stolica teda ústami apoštolského nuncia [meno] mi teda oznámila, že...
uh... vzhľadom na to, že som gej nemôžem byť veľvyslancom pri Svätej stolici, veľvyslancom
Slovenskej Republiky. Potom som, samozrejme že požiadal o rozhovor aj samotného nuncia.
Nuncius to poprel, ale myslím si, že to poprel len diplomaticky, lebo túto vec tak obchádzal a..
uh... bolo mi jasné, že v skutočnosti niekto zaúradoval a niekto mu posunul informáciu, že som
gej. A druhýkrát sa to stalo, keď som už pôsobil v Matici Slovenskej a v tom čase bolo potrebné
obsadiť post predsedu správnej rady Ústavu Pamäti Národa a predseda Národnej Strany,
Slovenskej Národnej Strany [meno], ktorý bol teda... mal v kompetencii dať návrh na obsadenie
postu predsedu Ústavu Pamäti Národa oslovil Maticu Slovenskú a mňa oslovil predseda Matice
Slovenskej [meno], že či... či som túto funkciu ochotný prijať a spolu sme navštívili predsedu
Slovenskej Národnej Strany, [meno], ktorý... uh... po rozhovore so mnou uznal za vhodné, že
ma dajú za kandidáta Slovenskej Národnej Strany. Ale v priebehu dňa alebo dvoch sa už v tlači
objavili články, ktoré oznamovali, že... uh... [meno respondenta] nemôže byť veľvyslancom pri
136
Svätej stolici, pretože... nebolo tam uvedené, že prečo, ale začalo jednak tým, že poslanec
Národnej Strany [meno] povedal verejne, že nebude za mňa hlasovať, čiže z tých ultrakonzervatívnych kresťanských zdrojov tam zvnútra bolo jasné, že... že [meno] bol informovaný
o... o tom, že som gej a potom sa... uh... vyjadril aj samotný [meno], že ma nepozná, tak... uh...
A predsedovi Matice navyše zavolal, že prečo navrh... navrhol na post geja. Tak som predsedovi
Matice povedal, že sa v tom prípade, že on ma nepozná... nie v tom prípade, že teda ma
považuje za geja, ale v tom prípade, že ma nepozná že sa vzdávam tejto kandidatúry. Navyše
to bolo potom umocnené ešte útokmi aj tých určitých kruhov z prostredia historikov. Takže toto
asi bola celá tá kauza.
I: Uhm. A tie útoky z tých... z toho prostredia tých historikov, môžete ich nejako špecifikovať?
R: No, bolo to len jediné vyjadrenie vtedajšieho teda riaditeľa ústavu... historického ústavu
SAV... uh... [meno], ktorému vadilo to, že ináč sa pozerám na osobnosti a udalosti druhej
svetovej vojny a prvej Slovenskej Republiky.
I: Ako ste vtedy zareagovali, keď sa stali tieto situácie vlastne?
R: No, ja som zaujal ten postoj, že vlastne... uh... v Ma... v práci, v Matici Slovenskej som...
uhm... túto vec už potom ďalej nerozvíjal a čo sa týka tých reakcií, tak som myslím že jednou
reakciou odpovedal v SME, ale ani nie... si nepamätám, že bola... bola uverejnená, ale... uhm...
tie útoky potom ako... respektíve tie... taká tá šuškaná propaganda, alebo tie šuškané klebety
odvtedy pokračovali dosť dlho určité obdobie, ale sa to utíšilo a nakoniec vlastne, hoci to bolo
dosť dôležité, došlo potom k zvoleniu nového predsedu Ústavu Pamäti Národa, dosť rýchlo,
[meno], takže vec utíchla.
I: Jasné. Zmenila sa vám nejako komunikácia v tých prí... po tých prípadoch, potom čo sa to
stalo s tými ľuďmi, s ktorými ste tam priamo komunikovali v tých situáciách?
R: Tak to poviem, áno. Zdá sa mi, že sa mi zmenila komunikácia s profesorom [meno], hoci
sme teda ostali stále priateľmi, aj sme sa stále zdravili a... a myslím si, že on bol aj človek
tolerantný... uh... trocha... trocha tam mi ako... sa mi zdalo, že niekto mu tam sprostredkoval
také divné informácie, lebo... lebo... ja som sa spýtal z čoho usudzuje on osobne že som gej, on
že z toho, že žijete v jednej domácnosti s priateľom. A ja som mu na to hovoril, však ale to je
známa vec, ja som vám to povedal, ja... ja to nijako nepopieram, že žijem v spoločnej
domácnosti s priateľom. No a odvte... odvted... odvtedy sa mi to stalo, ale napríklad na
pracovisku s predsedom Matice Slovenskej sa mi nijako nezmenili tie vzťahy. S [meno] to sa
137
nezmenilo. Nepocítil som nejakú diskrimináciu, ostal som stále tajomníkom Matice Slovenskej
a nemyslím, že to malo nejaký taký dosah. Skôr teraz jak je... keď je možnosť tých sociálnych
sietí, tak teraz vlastne ten môj coming out je úplne jasný. No a vlastne tam cítim z prostredia
niektorých kruhov, že... že majú také ako výhrady, ale je zaujímavé, že... uh... práve tí, od
ktorých by som to čakal, že by mi to mohli tlmočiť, tak tí mi to nikdy ne... nedajú najavo.
[...]
R: Zdá sa mi, viete, že ono tá téma nebola top téma, nebola politická téma, že sa vlastne začali...
uh... ľudia deliť, že konzervatívci musia mať iný názor na túto vec ako takzvaní liberáli, tak
v tom predchádzajúcom období ten názor bol oveľa tolerantnejší. Ľudia to tak nevnímali,
vnímali to tak, akože je to každého vec. Či už v socialistickom Československu, alebo ešte
v Československu do... do rozdelenia bola vlastne... nebola homosexualita trestná, každý to
vnímal ako teda že to je vec, ktorá sa má akceptovať, mnohí ľudia žili v dvojiciach, ľudia mali
spoločný majetok, spoločné bývanie a neriešilo sa to takýmto spôsobom aby niekto to nejakým
spôsobom škandalizoval. A tá škandalizácia nastala až keď bola vznesená požiadavka
registrovaných partnerstiev. Tam začalo... tam začali tie nedorozumenia, ktoré spôsobil veľ...
do veľkej miery [meno], lebo za... začal tvrdiť, že vlastne... uh... LGBTI partneri majú všetky
právne normy, ktoré im stačia na to, aby mohli spolu žiť, čo bolo úplné klamstvo. Takže tam sa
to celé začalo, vlastne proti tomu sa museli ohradiť, lebo nie je to tak, že toto... toto... Vtedy sa
začali ľudia takto deliť, no a teraz ďalšia... ďalšia fáza je, kedy tlak Európskej Únie... [...] ...teraz
je tlak Európskej Únie na prijatie určitých noriem, tak a to niektorí tak vnímajú, že vlastne táto
problematika LGBTI tu je pretláčaná zo zahraničia a že vlastne naša tradícia, naša slovenská,
slovanská tradícia je úplne iná, čo je samozrejme lož a výmysel, ale sa to ujalo medzi ľuďmi
a potom z toho sa rozvinuli určité konšpirácie, ktoré myslím si že dosť... dosť masívne
ovplyvňujú aj mienku ve... verejnosti.
[...]
Respondent Nr. 14 (partial translation)
I: The first question is whether you came out at your workplace. Or at least considered it. It
could be at any workplace where you have had your experience.
[...]
138
R: You know what, I haven’t come out that publicly at the workplace, but I have to my close
ones and to my co-workers. So not to everyone, but the close ones obviously knew it and I think
they were also accepting it.
I: Did some… did your communication with them change afterwards, either positively or
negatively, after the coming out?
R: No, that's interesting not during communism.
I: Uhm.
R: Not during communism. The people behaved the same. Uhm… I think they took it like…
either as a personal issue of every man… it wasn’t that politicized back then.
I: Sure. And not even after the communism, after the revolution?
R: Not even right after the revolution.
I: Sure. And if I can ask… uh… did you also have some other… uh, colleagues from the LGBT
community at any workplace?
R: Hmm, I need to think. I think not.
I: Not. Hmm. Good, all right, uh… Sure. Then, the next question is whether you… [...] Based
on what can you… uh… recognize these allies or those…
R: Based on the regular personal communication, because I don’t avoid this topic in discussions.
I have never opposed LGBT and… uh… and these people also, apparently, understood what it
is about, and I know by the reactions of colleagues who reacted in which way. So I considered
those who took it and accepted it allies.
[...]
R: Well, in my case the situation is, I would say, specific, because between the years 1995 and
1996 I was studying at the roman catholic theological faculty, and I was a catholic theologist.
I: Yes.
R: Despite of that, I was always able to reconcile it for myself. I will also tell you one thing that
is not a secret at all. At the time I was studying there, the faculty deacon was… was gay…
I: Uhm.
R: …professor, about whom many knew it and maybe it wasn’t even somehow publicly
protracted, but I also knew it about him, and he knew about me. So, that’s one thing, but I’m
saying there where any mutual contacts or that he would help me excellently, but I these… I
also understand this topic even as a historian, of course. I was also involved in the secular
139
apostolate during communism. I’ve never had any problem with it that I wouldn’t be able to
reconcile my faith with… with my… uhm… sexual behavior. That hasn’t been an issue for me,
even though it is an issue for many people… uh… which I completely understand that it’s
difficult for them, but one needs a lot of information, enough education to be able to orientate
themselves in the topic, so this wasn’t a problem for me and even that I was a theologist and I
was researching the topics of state and church, maybe that was even a certain dam that some
people didn’t dare to attack this openly, even though I have to say I have never hidden my
partner… uh… he used to come to me to the workplace, attended all events we’ve had, people
knew him and accepted him, so… uh, they were talking about him as my boyfriend, so I don’t
think it’s so critical and so defined as it is sometimes presented and… or sometimes the society
can’t accept the reality.
I: Uhm. Sure. Sure. Then there is the question we were talking about earlier and that is, whether
you’ve experienced any form of workplace discrimination and that can be only from some
heteronormativity to slurs, insults, indirect gossip, ostracism… uh… something in this manner.
R: Well, I’ve never noticed these remarks. I’m not that type, I’m very extroverted and a
communicative type, so if those things came up, they would always be cleared and it’s of course
possible that there have been such remarks, but I have never felt that they would, like during
my active time, for instance in the historical department of SAV, but one thing happened which
was, how would I say… notable, and that was in the year 1995 when I… I was a director of the
Church Department of the Ministry of Culture and in that time I was also in a quite close
relationship with professor [name], who was a vice-chairman of the National Council and we
used to meet on the grounds of the Club of Christian Initiatives and it happened that I... at
certain time I was proposed as a potential candidate for the post of an ambassador to the Holy
See. Well, and it... it obviously took certain time and eventually resulted in professor [name]
called me and informed me confidentially that the Holy See had informed me through the
apostolic nuncio that... uh... given that I am gay, I cannot be the ambassador to the Holy See,
the ambassador of the Slovak Republic. Then I, obviously, also asked for a discussion with the
nuncio himself. Nuncio denied it, but I think that only diplomatically, because he was avoiding
this issue and... uh... it was clear to me that in fact somebody took charge, and somebody passed
him the information that I am gay. And it happened for the second time when I was already
working in Matica Slovenská and at the time it was necessary to fill the post of the chairman of
140
the Institute of National Memory and the chairman of National Party, the Slovak National Party
[name] who was… it was in his competency to give a proposal for filling the post of the
chairman of the Institute of National Memory had addressed Matica Slovenská and I was
addressed by the chairman of Matica Slovenská [name] whether… whether I was willing to
accept this position and we both visited the chairman of the Slovak National Party [name]
who… uh… after an interview with me deemed appropriate to take me as a candidate of the
Slovak National Party. But in the next day or two, articles appeared in the press informing
that… uh… [name of respondent] cannot be the ambassador to the Holy See because... it was
not stated there why, but it began for one part with member of parliament [name] telling publicly
that he would not be voting for me, so it was clear from the ultra-conservative Christian currents
from within that… that [name] had been informed about… about me being gay and then… uh…
even [name] himself said he did not know me, so… uh… And moreover, he called the chairman
of Matica Slovenská why he proposed a gay for the post. So, I told the chairman of Matica
Slovenská that in the case he does not know me… not in the case that he considers me a gay
man, but in the case that he does not know me, I am giving up my candidacy. Moreover, it had
been reinforced by attacks from certain circles of the milieu of historians. So that was about the
whole case.
I: Uhm. And the attacks from the... from the milieu of historians, can you somehow specify
them?
R: Well, it was a single statement of the then director of the institute... historical institute of
SAV... uh... [name], who was bothered that I look differently on personalities and events of the
second world war and the first Slovak republic.
I: And how did you react when these situations happened?
R: Well, I took on the attitude that actually... uh... in Ma... at my job, in Matica Slovenská I...
uhm... did not develop this issue further and regarding the reactions, I think I have responded
by answering in one reaction in SME, but not even... I do not remember whether it was... it was
publicized, but... uhm... then the attacks... or those... that whispered propaganda or those
whispered gossips continued for quite a long time at certain period, but it went silent and
eventually, even though it was quite important, a new chairman of the Institute of National
Memory was voted quite quickly, [name], so the thing went silent.
141
I: Sure. Did your communication change in those ca... after those cases, after what happened
with those people with whom you communicated directly in those situations?
R: I’ll say it this way, yes. It seems to me that the communication with professor [name], even
though we continued to be friends, we also continued to greet each other and… and I think he
was a tolerant person… uh… a bit… a bit it… it seemed to me as though someone had mediated
him such weird information, because… because I asked him how does he personally know I
was gay, he said that from the fact that you live in one household with a boyfriend. And I
responded that it is a well-known thing, I’ve told you, I… I don’t deny it in any way that I live
in one household with a boyfriend. And so, since… since… since then it happened to me, but
for instance, those relationships at the workplace with the chairman of Matica Slovenská have
not changed in any way. It hasn’t changed with [name]. I haven’t felt any discrimination,
I remained as a secretary of Matica Slovenská and I don’t think it had any outreach. It’s rather
now as... as there is the possibility of the social networks, now that coming out of mine is
completely clear. And so, there I feel from the milieu of certain circles that... that they have sort
of objections, but it’s interesting that... uh... exactly those from who I would expect it, that they
could mediate it to me, those never... make it clear.
[...]
R: I think that this topic wasn’t the hot topic, wasn’t a political topic that actually people started
to... uh... divide, that conservatives have to have a different opinion on this issue than the socalled liberals, the opinion had been much more tolerant in the previous era. People didn’t
perceive it that way, they perceived it as everybody’s own issue. Either in socialist
Czechoslovakia or even in Czechoslovakia until... until the division it was actually....
homosexuality wasn’t punishable, everyone perceived it as a thing that is to be accepted, many
people lived in pairs, people had common property, common housing, and it wasn’t being
solved in this way for somebody to scandalize it some way. And the scandalization began only
when the requirement of registered partnerships was presented. There it began... there the
misunderstandings began, which had been caused mostly... for the most part by [name], because
he... began to claim that actually... uh... LGBTI partners have all the legal norms that are
sufficient to them in order to live together, which was a complete lie. So, there it all began, they
had to object to it, because it’s not like it that.... that this... this... Then the people began to divide,
well, and the next... next phase is, when the pressure from the European Union... [...] ...now it’s
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the pressure of the European Union for the acceptance of certain norms and some perceive it as
if this LGBTI problematic is being forced here from abroad and that our tradition, our Slovak,
Slavic tradition is completely different, which is obviously lie and a nonsense, but it took hold
among people and then certain conspiracies developed from it which I think quite... quite
massively influence the meaning of the pu... public as well.
[...]
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