Child Sexual Exploitation, “The snake with many heads”: A Qualitative study on the
perceptions of professionals in the South East of England
Thomson, Rebecca
Msc Forensic and Investigative Psychology
School of Psychology, Politics and Sociology
Canterbury Christ Church University
Final Word Count: 16,377
Author Note
I can confirm that I have read, understood and adhered to the BPS and British
Criminological Society ethical guidelines. This study was approved by Canterbury Christ Church
University Ethics Committee, approval number: 17/SAS/45F
All correspondence concerning this article should be addressed to Rebecca Thomson,
Psychology Department, Canterbury Christ Church University, BT123@canterbury.ac.uk
2
Abstract
In the UK, Child Sexual Exploitation (CSE) is a national issue yet is tackled at a local level
within multi agency working groups, facilitated by Safeguarding boards. Previous research has
investigated professionals’ experiences of CSE yet has not attempted to understand how the
multi-agency teams operate. This research aimed to explore a regional perspective of CSE
professionals’ perceptions and responses to CSE, focussing on the nature of CSE and the internal
and external responses. Due to unique features the county of Kent was identified as a high-risk
area for CSE and therefore the focus of the current study. The data were derived from 13 semi
structured interviews with CSE professionals involved in multi-agency teams in Kent.
Participants were recruited via purposive means and were contacts made via Christ Church
University. Applied Thematic Analysis was used to interpret the data from which, patterns
emerged which were grouped into 5 main themes. These themes; “It’s an everybody problem”,
Teams are more than just the jobs people do”, “Who cares?”, “Too many cooks” and “Learning
from the past is changing the future” described legal and procedural issues both within multi
agency teams and in the law which can be improved to support effective working. Findings
showed that multi agency teams are working effectively in Kent, however, the definitions of CSE
are not enough and inhibit agencies ability to identify victims and safeguard effectively. Based
upon the findings, recommendations were made for further mixed methods research to develop a
more robust understanding of CSE in Kent as well as recommending the interview of children to
inform interventions and increase resilience.
Keywords: Child sexual exploitation, multi-agency, criminal justice, investigative
psychology
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Acknowledgements
Throughout this dissertation I have received a great deal of support, without which I would have
fallen at the first hurdle. I first would like to thank my supervisors and friends, Belinda Siesmaa and
Katarina Mozova for their unconditional faith in my abilities, guidance on personal and professional
obstacles and unfaltering expertise on the subject. This degree would also not have been possible
without the financial support of Dover District Council and Shaun Taylor, who funded the larger
project and enabled me to study and work in the area I am most passionate about. Nor would it have
been possible without the thirteen professionals who gave up their time to a lowly Msc student and
gave me their knowledge and insight.
My Christ Church Students Union colleagues have been a source of great information and
support when times were hard, in particular Ben McPhee, Kate Little, Antonia Dyson and Megan
Cork, who offered compassion and flexibility in the final weeks of completion. A special mention to
the students of Christ Church University who have been patient and supportive when my dissertation
took precedent and job took a back seat.
I could not have emerged from this process with dignity had it not been for my friends, Emily
Grant, Katey Pugh, Toby George and Alexandra Clifford who were always available to listen to my
worries and falters in confidence, even if that phone call came at two in the morning and for that, I
sincerely thank each of you.
4
Finally, but perhaps, most important of all, I wish to thank my family. Tom and Erica Matthews
who have forever pushed me to be the best I can be and loving me without judgement, despite
everything. My sister Hannah Thomson for knowing me better than I know myself and picking me
up at my lowest. My husband Tom Cordiner for your unwavering love throughout, possibly, the
hardest year for both of us and our daughter Phoebe Cordiner for loving me despite the hardship of
having a mum that studies.
Child Sexual Exploitation, “The snake with many heads”: A Qualitative study on the
perceptions of professionals in the South East of England
Introduction
Child Sexual Abuse (CSA) is the sexual, emotional and physical abuse of children
(Woodiwiss, 2018). Child Sexual Exploitation (CSE) is a form of CSA and is differentiated from
it by the exchange of something which the survivor needs or wants for sexual favours which are
of benefit to the perpetrator. CSE is the cause of long lasting physical, mental and emotional
consequences and affecting approximately 1 in 20 children between 10 and 13 years old in the
United Kingdom (UK) (Barnardos, 2019), is a growing issue which is little understood (Van de
Vijver, 2019). However, CSE has been more in the public psyche in light of high-profile
scandals in the last twenty years, for example the case of the Rotherham and Rochdale grooming
gang (Tufail, 2015), and literature has begun to explore the nature of CSE (Thomson, 2019;
Babchishin, Seto, Fazel and Långström, 2019; Selvius, Wijkman, Slotboom and Hendrik, 2018).
Although some aspects of it are well researched and understood, such as grooming mechanisms
and vulnerability, there is a need for a more localized understanding of CSE.
5
This report will outline the current landscape of CSE, explore the definitions used across the
UK and critically examine how the government is responding to the issue. As CSE is tackled at a
local level, this study is imperative to understand how the current method of multi-agency teams
are working from the perspective of the professionals. To do this, the study will critically explore
recent literature within the area and understand the background of CSE. It will discuss the
design, approach and analysis, including the participants interviewed and reflexivity of the
researcher. Themes will then be presented for investigation and finally these findings will be
discussed, limitations of the study surveyed, and recommendations made for further research.
Literature Review
What is Child Sexual Exploitation?
Child Sexual exploitation (CSE) is widely accepted as a complex issue (Brayley, 2014), not
only impacting a child’s psychological, physiological and social wellbeing (Ottisova et al., 2018;
Le et al., 2018), but literature also suggests that adverse childhood experiences have predictive
validity of bad lifelong outcomes (Felitti et al., 2019). A form of child sexual abuse (CSA), CSE
is a hidden crime and the statistics available for the prevalence (DfE, 2017) are almost certainly
under representative of the actual figure for the UK. The reasoning for this is multifaceted and
can be best understood by looking at the way in which CSE is defined and identified by UK law
(Appendix a). There is no unified definition of CSE and CSE policies and practice frameworks
operate under different definitions dependent on which area of the UK they are being
implemented, however, there are some commonalities amongst them.
6
These definitions attempt to make sense of what child sexual exploitation is in a broad
context, yet omits the nuanced and complicated relationship between being a survivor of CSE
and becoming a perpetrator of a crime, which often overlaps or can occur simultaneously (Halter,
2010; Cockbain and Brayley, 2012;2014; Walker, 2013; Cole, Sprang, Lee and Cohen, 2016).
They do, however, highlight the integral factor which is key to distinguishing CSE from other
forms of child abuse, namely, sexual activity in exchange for tangible and intangible gifts or
status. This exchange is the core dynamic at play and identifying CSE over other forms of sexual
abuse is dependent on this key feature (Goldstein, 1998). Despite the difference in wording, the
demarcation between them is the lack of acknowledgement of online sexual abuse and consent.
Each of the definitions fails to explain the role technology can play, specifically online coercion
or blackmail, even though Child Exploitation and Online Protection (CEOP) suggest it is a
highly prevalent form of CSE in the UK (CEOP, 2016). There is also mention of consent given,
within the definitions from England, Scotland and Wales, however, Northern Ireland do not
specify whether consent is needed. Until April 2019, Northern Irish law discounted young
people over the age of 16 as victims of CSE. However, policy change has meant that they now
recognise those up to the age of 18 as children and consider the mental capacity of survivors and
ability to consent (DoJ, 2019). This has not been reflected in the definition to date and may lead
to confusion in practice. An example of this would be an 18-year-old who is considered an adult
yet has a mental age of 13 who has been exploited. The law in Northern Ireland would treat this
victim as a child and prosecute under child sexual exploitation related offences, however this is
not the case for the same scenario in Scotland.
The way the definitions approach CSE is haphazard and in this way, is like the way sexual
abuse is also defined. Within a law paradigm, the two are not distinct from each other, even
7
though the definitions are separate, this causes issues in identification for practitioners,
conviction and data collection for further research. In UK law, CSE is not a specific offence,
rather the perpetrator can be convicted under the Sexual Offences Act, 2003 (Sexual Offences
Act, 2003) for specific criminal acts, for example; rape, sexual assault of a child or distribution
of indecent images of a child (Greenbaum, 2015).
One of the issues with categorising CSE as a non-convictable offence is the difficulty of
collating data relating to it specifically. This causes problems with identifying the prevalence of
CSE nationwide (Home Office, 2017) and means the response by lawmakers and professionals is
not consistent or informed by robust data. Furthermore, the lack of clarity surrounding the
definition within the UK leaves the professionals in doubt of what constitutes CSE and how to
report it. (Barnardos, 2017). It is widely accepted that placing CSE within the sphere of CSA is
appropriate but differentiating between the two is key to improving and accurate measurement
and response.
Currently, all agencies are bound by the definitions set by their respective government and
this lack of consistency is claimed to be a major contributor to the issues in tackling CSE
(Barnardos, 2016). CSE is closely linked to deficits in social, economic and psychological capital
as suggested by research exploring adverse childhood experiences (Felitti et al., 2019; Brown,
2016; Hook Courtney, 2011). Therefore, the response to CSE needs to be varied and flexible,
encompassing a multitude of agencies, areas, treatment and delivery to address the multi-faceted
effects.
8
CSE manifest itself in many ways, each comes with its own unique challenges and features.
To understand the best and most effective way to safeguard children, the agencies need to
understand the variety of ways in which children can be exploited.
What are the different models of CSE?
There are several, internationally recognised and researched “models” of CSE (Shelton,
Eakin, Hoffer, Muirhead and Owens, 2016). Although the way in which this manifest can be
individual, there are some recurring elements which help to define them. It is important to note
that these models are not mutually exclusive. For example, the “boyfriend/girlfriend model” is
potentially the most observed CSE example (Kent Safeguarding Children Board, 2016), given
the normalisation of the scenario and the likeness to other, more appropriate situations. Here, the
perpetrator grooms a young person, making them believe they are in a loving relationship. After
they have control over the survivor, the offender then forces the young person to engage in
sexual acts with themselves and associates (Bardardos, 2017). The “boyfriend/girlfriend model”
is often associated with older men and younger girls; however, this is not always the case and it
is important to note that boys are also at risk (Coy, 2011). Although the research suggests that
both males and females can become perpetrators in this model of exploitation (Coy, 2011), it is
still the case that some agencies fail to account for this. An example is the College of Policing,
where the definition is still defined as the “boyfriend model” and does not mention female
offenders. As the definition does not reflect the research, professionals tasked with identifying
CSE may not recognise the signs of this form of CSE, leaving a child vulnerable to further
exploitation. Equally, the College of Policing does not communicate any definition of online
9
sexual exploitation, instead categorising it as a form of sexual abuse, thus limiting the way in
which the law responds to the criminal element.
One of the difficulties of this model of CSE, is the problem with identification, to the point
where not even the survivor may be aware, they are being exploited. When brought to the
attention of professionals, it can be their responsibility to address this with the survivor and
attempt to make them aware that what is happening to them is an offence before they are able to
prosecute (Jago et al., 2011). Like the “boyfriend/girlfriend model”, CSE can also manifest in
the form of an “inappropriate relationship”, categorized by an inappropriate power or control
over a survivor which is created and reinforced using sex as a mechanism for power. The
distinguishing feature between this mode of operation and others, is the involvement of
associates, adding a second dimension of exploitation (Cockbain, 2012). Literature suggests both
the “boyfriend/girlfriend model” and “inappropriate relationship model” are often committed by
male perpetrators and in isolation (Davis, 2000), however as discussed, they are not mutually
exclusive, and females may also be seen to be perpetrators. The very complex nature of the
varying models and types is indicative of the issue which professionals need to overcome to deal
with CSE. The confusion which surrounds identification inhibits the ability to effectively deal
with the problem in a consistent and nationwide way.
In contrast to the “boyfriend/girlfriend model” and the “inappropriate relationship model”,
organised networked sexual exploitation or trafficking, is a large scale, potentially global
mechanism for exploiting and abusing children (Greenbaum, 2015). Often organised by males
(Lebloch and Kind, 2006), there have been instances reported by various ethnicities, research
also suggests that this is the case for CSE as a whole.
10
e entity and that racial profiles do not correlate with reports of CSE (Gill and Harrison,
2015). However, some conflicting reports do consider that different areas will have a racial
profile due to the nature of the demographic, infrastructural links and geographical landscape
(Cole, Sprang, Lee and Cohen, 2016). Oftentimes when other forms of criminality coincide with
CSE, one aids the other to achieve an aim or objective, this is particularly the case with another
type of CSE, gang related CSE which can include county lines (Wood, 2019). For example, both
use sex as a weapon between rival gangs, punishment to fellow members and to achieve
increased status or hierarchy within the gang itself, children are exploited as a means by which to
achieve the aims of the gang members. This can also, but not necessarily, be tied into the sale
and movement of drugs by the gang as young people, often boys, are used as “runners” between
counties (Pitts, 2019). Gang related CSE is the only model where sexual exploitation is not the
primary activity of the perpetrator, however in line with the definitions of CSE, the perpetrator
“takes advantage of an imbalance of power to coerce, manipulate or deceive a child or young
person under the age of 18 into sexual activity in exchange for something the survivor needs or
wants, and/or for the financial advantage or increased status of the perpetrator or facilitator”
(DfE, 2016). Amongst this, peer on peer CSE can be found both separate and in conjunction with
all other models of CSE (Barnardos, 2016).
The “peer on peer” model is characterized by young people coercing other young people
into sexual activity. This can be for the perpetrators gain, in a gang situation for example this
could be used to increase status or hierarchy, however, it could also be in cases of larger
organised CSE groups to win the trust of the victim. “peer on peer” CSE is a difficult model to
understand and much research suggests agencies are not fully aware of how it manifests,
hindering the agency’s ability to identify victims. As victims are often identified through other
11
criminal activity, it is difficult for professionals to differentiate between victim and perpetrator.
Victims are also are reluctant to disclose for fear of further incrimination (DeMarco et al., 2018).
Online CSE is one of the most recently identified forms of CSE, however, one of the least
researched in terms of the extent and nature of the exploitation taking place (Ramiro et al.,
2019). Online sexual exploitation is the hardest to detect models as it is almost impossible to
monitor without it being brought to the attention of agencies by parents or victims. It is also an
ever-evolving area due to the nature of technology. It can include criminal acts of disseminating
self-produced images (sexting), this can be facilitated by peer on peer exploitation or within an
inappropriate relationship scenario. Our understanding of the prevalence of ‘sexting’ is inhibited,
again, by a lack of consistency in definitions and the legal implications of age of consent. It is
relatively commonplace amongst adolescents but probably more prevalent as an activity amongst
young adults (Klettke, Hallford and Mellor 2014). This also is linked to a greater question of
what professionals consider appropriate forms of sexual expression in adolescence. For example,
exploring the issue of what constitutes problematic adolescent online behaviour involves asking
challenging questions about values. Are professionals problematising behaviours that are
normative and inherently not problematic for many young people? This is linked to the
differentiation in law between a young person as a perpetrator and victim. The current legal
situation is that the age of consent to sexual activity in Scotland is 16 but the fact that individuals
under 18 can be charged in relation to sexting is confusing to some agencies and information
concerning this was under promoted for both young people and professionals. The current legal
provision for young people is that it is illegal to possess an ‘indecent’ sexual image of a person
under age 18 but it is lawful to have actual sexual relations with someone under the age of 18
(where the person is aged over 16 and there is consent). In Scottish law someone under the age
12
of 13 cannot consent to sexual activity and therefore anyone, including 16- and 17-year old’s,
engaging in sex with someone under 13 is committing rape and could face prosecution in the
High Court.
These are the most well-known and researched forms of CSE, however, research has
suggested, as with other forms of abuse, that there is no “one size fits all” scenario. This is most
important when considering the role of young people in the grooming stages and the criminality
which surrounds almost all forms of CSE. The law is not clear on how it treats young people
who are also perpetrators or have been committed a crime related to the exploitation (Wollack,
Finkelhor and Mitchell, 2012; Goldstein, 1998). This also affects professionals understanding
and perceptions as to the nature of the issue in their local area as underreporting is likely when
young people believe themselves to be the criminal and not the survivor.
There is the assumption that CSE is perpetrated by adults, however whilst it is easy to
understand the models involving adults, when children are involved as both victims and
exploiters it becomes less clear. CSE is a specific type of child sexual abuse that has various
definitions across the UK. Further complicated by online exploitation, age of consent and
children as perpetrators which means the way in which it is conceptualized is not cohesive.
Risk Factors Associated with CSE
Understanding risk factors is important to create prevention and intervention policies and
best practice. However, as noted previously whilst there is now appreciation that CSE is an issue
that affects the whole UK, due to the practice of policy, law and self-reporting, is often hidden
and therefore the prevalence is not fully known (Centre of Expertise on Child Sexual Abuse,
13
2017; Office of the children’s Commissioner, 2012) despite this, descriptive statistics of known
CSE, as well as self-report research has uncovered some key information which helps identify
risk factors. Children and young people aged 12-15 years are shown to be most at risk (Ofsted,
2016), despite this data, some children as young as 8 have been identified, specifically linked to
online concerns in recent years (Centre of Expertise on Child Sexual Abuse, 2017). The law
specifies that anyone under the age of 18 in England is considered a child, therefore it is
important to recognise that those young people over 16 are also at risk due even considering the
age of consent is 16 (Temkin, 2004). This is important to note as consent cannot be given in an
exploitative relationship, no matter the age of the child.
It is a broad stereotype that females are the only gender at risk of CSE, this is potentially due
to the biased media coverage of high profile CSE cases (Martelozzo, 2013). The data suggests
that male children are just as likely to become a vicim of CSE, however, they are less likely to
report it and therefore the data reflects this by a disproportionate number of female CSE cases
brought to trial (Kelly and Karsna, 2017). Although the literature tells us that any child is
potentially at risk, there are some factors which heighten that risk and increase vulnerability
(Gollier, 1996). The risk factors which increase the vulnerability of children are varied and
include individual differences such as IQ, having a learning difficulty, low self-esteem,
environmental risks such as coming from a low socio-economic status (SES), more broadly from
deprived areas and dysfunctional family or historical such as a history of abuse or neglect.
By definition, children or young people with learning difficulties are some of the most at
risk of the entire population. This can leave them vulnerable to CSE. However, some research
suggests that it is more likely for that sample to become victims of sexual abuse and not
14
exploitation (Twill, Green and Traylor, 2010), possibly due to the way in which perpetrators of
CSE find their victims which often involves meeting in social or recreational areas. Children
with learning difficulties are statistically less likely to be unsupervised in situations such as these
(Twill, Green and Traylor, 2010). Research suggests that children from low SES backgrounds
are less likely to have parents who reinforce safety concepts at home and least likely to trust their
parents to provide protection and therefore disclose abuse (Briggs and Hawkins, 1996). This is
also closely linked to children who are in the care of the authorities or, “looked after children”.
These individuals are widely recognised as the most at risk as literature suggests that a
significant number of children in care will have suffered some form of historical abuse, been
brought up in a dysfunctional family and have witnessed or been the subject of neglect. (Frost
and Mills, 2019). Issues with sexual identity or a recent bereavement or loss can also make a
child more vulnerable to becoming a survivor (Home Office, 2015). Will it is important to
recognise the risk factors, however, there is some literature which warns against utilizing these
too much as any child can be at risk and when there are no obvious identifiers, CSE can be
overlooked (Cocker, 2019).
The way in which a professional can identify these risk factors can be difficult as not all
children present with all these vulnerabilities and some present none. At an operational level,
professionals are advised to look out for signs of CSE in the behaviours of children. For
example, the Kent Safeguarding Board (KSGCB) utilise a toolkit as an aid to practitioners in
identifying those high, medium and low risk children. KSGCB have a procedure which aids
professionals in understanding how to navigate the processes when identification and assessment
has been conducted (Appendix b). This is in place to ensure the child is safeguarded at the
earliest opportunity. Some research has suggested that these toolkits are flawed, due to the lack
15
of evidence in understanding the prevalence and nature of what CSE looks like in Kent. The
toolkits are also not consistent across sectors or agencies, leaving the decision open to a level of
interpretation and human error (Pearce, 2014).
By understanding the underlying vulnerabilities of children exposed to CSE, this should in
theory aid practitioners in identifying victims earlier. However, as not all children exhibit these
signs, it can have the opposing effect with practitioners overlooking victims due to insufficient
awareness, lack of training or ineffective toolkits.
Perceptions of Professionals
Perceptions are important in terms of understanding human behaviour and how this can
influence the way in which an individual will respond to a phenomenon (Alfes, Shantz, Truss
and Soane, 2013). It is also important when understanding how effective an overall organisation
response is working when quantitative data is limited or lacking and can help address the
problems (Brown, 2002). Research on CSE is lacking (Bokhari, 2008), however, when looking at
the responses of professionals and outcomes of the operational responses on the professionals
working, there is very little outside of internally commissioned reports (O'Connell Davidson,
2011). This lack of research is an issue when discussing the practicalities of tackling CSE at a
local level and the responses of the individuals as well as agencies.
Research has already suggested that the existing data on CSE is underrepresented at best
due to the nature of CSE not being a convictable offence, the issue of reporting when survivors
may also be criminals as well as the disjointedness of some multi agencies. However, there is
16
also a need for professionals’ insight into what is needed in order to improve the responses of
local safeguarding boards. Some studies have identified this need such as the report into sexual
health nurses and their role in identifying CSE (Sangster, Crowley and McGrandles, 2018). By
interviewing 10 registered nurses, they concluded that although they were able to identify CSE,
there were procedural issues which inhibited this in every case. Emerging themes from the study
included the feeling that there were no mechanisms in place with which to support those
vulnerable young people who didn’t access the service directly. This was particularly in the case
of young boys who are at equal risk to CSE, more so from gang related CSE (Wood, 2019;
Moxley-Goldsmith, 2005). The participants also suggested that further barriers to access and
identification included young people not withdrawing disclosures or withdrawing and the laws
not supporting the follow up of those individuals. It was suggested, however, that the
opportunities for identification were facilitated by the close working partnership between multiagencies.
There is literature available which supports the government’s move toward multi agency
working at a local level and suggests this has been widely successful, however, there is no
indication as to why or how this way of working functions. The acknowledgement of these needs
leaves gaps in literature to further explore the way in which other professionals understand their
roles, the training available, the trends in their local areas and the issues associated with their
localities multi agency working procedures. By identifying these patterns, research will then be
best placed to recommend policy and procedural changes which will aid best practice for a
specific area.
17
This has also been supported by all reports which have attempted to inspect the effectiveness
of governmental procedures, local authorities, and individual services effectiveness of response
to CSE (Kent Safeguarding Children Multi-agency Partnership, 2019; NSPCC, 2018; Centre of
Expertise on Child Sexual Abuse, 2017; Bardardos, 2016;2017; Kent Safeguarding Children
Board, 2017;2016; Home Office, 2017; DfE, 2017; Ofsted, 2014; Office of children’s
Commissioner, 2012), these have taken the overview of local authorities and explored what
works and what needs to be improved.
How has the government responded?
The government has been aware of the problem which CSE poses nationwide for decades,
with reference made to sex abuse rings in the late 1970’s (Burgess and Clarke, 1986). However,
the term child sexual abuse only entered the public discourse around the late 1990’s after a series
of research and practical guidance for professionals (Goldstein, 1998; Kelly and Regan, 2000;
Goldman and Padayachi, 2000). Even after the publication of the studies, research in the area
was sporadic and centered around child sexual abuse and its long-term effects rather than CSE
and how it manifests specifically (Davis and Petretic-Jackson, 2000; Rowan and Foy, 1993;
Finkelhor, 1993). An independent inquiry by Professor Alex Jay (Jay, 2013) into the procedural
and policy failings of the Rotherham case found that 1400 girls were abused and exploited
between the years 1997 and 2013, although this number is thought to be under representative,
and was a demonstration of how little professionals knew about the scope and nature of CSE.
The Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre (CEOP) to publish an assessment on public
grooming and the mechanisms which are used (Child Exploitation and Online Protection, 2011)
18
to understand the nature of CSE. This study had limited results as the methodology lacked
robustness and the limited statutory powers of CEOP restricted access to the requested
information. Again, the lack of access inhibits the ability to effectively understand the landscape
of varying types of CSE.
Simultaneously, the University of Bedfordshire published a national review of local
safeguarding children’s boards (LSCB) (Bovarnick, Scott and Pearce, 2017). This study reported
27% of convictions for CSE were perpetrated by young people, raising questions around whether
services were equipped to respond to a situation where young people were both the survivor and
perpetrator (Jago et al, 2011). Around this time, policy changes were taking place as a result of a
report by Barnardo’s (2011) which prompted the government to assign the responsibility for
child sexual exploitation to a minister, a major step in the acknowledgment and acceptance of
CSE into governmental policy and law (Home Office, 2012). Furthermore, a report by the Office
of Children’s Commissioner (OCC) (2011) found severe shortcomings in the strategic running of
CSE operations across the country. Utilizing a mixed methods design, interviewing both
professionals and children alongside data accessed from across services, the report from the
Office of Children’s Commissioner identified gangs and groups as a key area of concern across
the country, but more specifically in the South East and North East of England. As this was the
first inquiry which had pulled together data from the police, local authorities, central government
and primary care trusts, it was well placed to make recommendations for the identification of
survivors, identifying perpetrators and data gathering and information sharing. Findings
suggested that immediate action was required for all services including Crown Prosecution and
royal colleges, to circulate the warning signs of CSE. Building on this, a vital aspect of these
19
teams was the integral inquisitiveness of the individuals to seek new information relating to their
local area.
The data identified that awareness of CSE signs were low at every level, other than those in
a specialist position, which has been identified as a major barrier to successful safeguarding of
children when CSE is prevalent. Safeguarding is a procedure which is integral to every agency
who encounters children, ensuring that the child is helped by the corresponding authorities based
upon their need. The national framework in place to respond to any incidences involving
children (Home Office, 2018), encompassing all safeguarding procedures and the legislative
requirements, is inherently is based upon the success of multi-agency working.
Furthermore, the report recommends all police forces to work with partner agencies,
including third sector specialists, to cross reference information and risk assess more effectively,
extending to identifying those at risk before they are formally under the care of local services.
This is a preventative strategy which is suggested to help to reduce the number of at-risk children
being exploited. In theory, this is in line with the research, however, the way in which this is
carried out is not specified with an overarching strategy which leaves all agencies in a state of
confusion when interpreting the information.
Multi-agency working was identified as a key factor in each area of successful working;
including identifying perpetrators, setting policy and procedures and safeguarding children
before, during and after CSE has occurred. In order to tackle what is, a multi-faceted public
health, legal and social issue, multi-agency working requires all agencies to be consistently
ensuring the needs of the child are met. To ensure these partner agencies work cooperatively,
local safeguarding boards (LSCB’s) were mandated to ensure the communication and
20
invariability across their locales. These boards are effectively, the way in which partner agencies
are held to account, however research suggests that whilst some areas are working well, others
are falling short of their responsibilities.
Following on from the OCC report, Ofsted (2014) published a paper which found that those
recommendations were not being followed through at both a strategic and operational level,
leaving a shortfall and not effectively safeguarding children. The thematic inspection was
originally commissioned to evaluate the effectiveness of local authorities’ current responses to
CSE. Utilising data from eight local authorities, including Brent, Bristol, Camden, Kent, Luton,
Oldham, Rochdale and Rotherham, each of which has had severe cases or either high profile or
prolific CSE in the last ten years. The paper utilised data collected from thirty-six children’s
homes from across the country via inspections carried out by Ofsted inspectors. Across the eight
local authorities, there were six broad themes identified as needing improvement (Ofsted, 2014);
strategic leadership, performance management, raising awareness, findings from practice,
disruption and prosecution and when children go missing. The report found shortcomings in the
consistency in leadership, both strategic and operational. This was symptomized as a lack of
awareness and understanding of CSE among senior leaders which was evident in the progress
that has been made locally. Furthermore, one of the local authorities were “struggling to accept”
the findings of the independent review which significantly impeded its ability to move forward.
At a more localised level, there was found to be very little evidence seen of links between the
key priorities as outlined in the OCC report and those of LCSB’s. This lack of cohesion between
the two authorities means that partnership working was identified as being disjointed and not
effective, therefore not fulfilling its overall objective to safeguard vulnerable children.
21
Overall, the report concluded that children and young people are most effectively protected
from CSE when LSCB’s utilise an effective strategy which supports professionals to work
together and share data openly. This combined with a holistic approach of raising awareness
amongst organisations, promoting inquisitiveness and working to identify both survivors and
perpetrators was suggested as the only way to combat CSE. As highlighted by the reports from
both third sector charities and the government (NSPCC, 2018; Centre of Expertise on Child
Sexual Abuse, 2017; Bardardos, 2016;2017 Ofsted, 2014), the issue of CSE cannot be handled
effectively at a higher, national level. It must be combatted in a more localised way to address
the nuanced issues which are unique to each area (DfE, 2016).
The county of Kent had, until October 2013, a team of locally based professionals which would
handle incidences of CSE individually alongside other diverse duties. Although localised, the
team consisted of police officers, therefore, did not approach the issue from a holistic way,
encompassing partner agencies. It was decided a dedicated multi-agency team would be created
by the KSGCB to address these issues in a structured and methodical way, based upon research
and extensive reports. This team, named “Operation Lakeland”, began work in November 2013
with the task of allowing for more interconnection between identification of survivors and
perpetrator identification. The overview report assessing how the operation could be more
effective and practices could be improved, showed that there were areas of awareness raising
which had gone above and beyond expectations. However, the there was still some progress to
be made to attain a comprehensive strategy which could be relied upon in majority of cases to
prevent CSE. To understand why, with all the protocols and strategies in place, CSE is still not
being efficiently prevented and tackled earlier in Kent, it is important to understand how multiagency working is experienced by professionals. It is also imperative to report on the specific
22
nature of CSE in the county as this will influence the types of responses needed from the
KSGCB.
Current Study
The proximity and infrastructural links with London and the rest of the UK means Kent is
uniquely situated for infiltration by county lines gangs (Pitts, 2019; Hadfield and Tong, 2018;
KSGCB, 2017; Ross et al., 2015). The gangs have been known to use children and young people
to operate and the increase in known gangs operating in the area is correlated with an increase of
missing children in Kent (Ofsted, 2013). In response to this, KSGCB issued explanations to
increase awareness of the gang activity which is prevalent in the county (KSGCB, 2017),
however, they extent of this is downplayed and some further research is needed to understand
how this has impacted the working of professionals.
Kent also encompasses Europe’s busiest port, Dover, which has an estimated 11.7 million
passengers passing through each year (Preston et al., 2018). This has affected the demographical
make up over the last twenty years as the Port of Dover was one of the largest employers of
migrant workers from across the UK throughout the late 70’s to 1990’s (Howe, 2019). This
suggests the demographic of Dover in 2019 has a vast cultural diversity, specifically from the
northern English cities (Burrell et al., 2019). This is evidenced in the recent issues Kent, more
specifically Dover, has had with gangs who have used children to move drugs between Liverpool
and Kent (Hudek, 2018). The St Giles Trust issued a scoping report in 2018 which highlighted
this issue in the South East and issued emerging best practice which is yet to be disseminated to
the local safeguarding board for operational support. There has, however been some progress as
Hudek (2018) explains in the St Giles report. In Kent, the Missing Child and Exploitation Team
23
(MCET) team has brought together missing children and exploitation – “Previously, we didn’t
really understand the risks to the young people, we were so fragmented. MCET means we can
join the dots between CSE, gang and county lines related and missing children. This is a positive
step, and a good starting point, however further cohesion between teams is imperative in
furthering safeguarding of children and disruption of CSE activity in Kent.
Although research suggests that there is no racial profile for perpetrators of CSE, literature
does suggest that the demographic of the area will play a role in which population is more
notably involved in the exploitation (Home Office, 2015). For example, in the last 5 years all
cases of CSE in the Dover district has been perpetrated by white males (UKCrimeStats, 2019),
which matches the overall demographic makeup of the area. It has been contested that building a
profile of offenders of CSE can had adverse effects and limit the scope of type of person the
professionals are looking for (Canter, 2000). However, it is also suggested that by better
understanding the type of perpetrator professionals are seeing in Kent, they will be better placed
to make positive identification and convictions (Ainsworth, 2013).
To compound this, research has also shown that a risk factor for children involved in CSE is
growing up in a deprived or low socio-economic area (OCC, 2018). Data shows that on the
national rank of the English Index of Multiple Deprivation (IMD) some areas of Kent are in the
top 10% of most deprived areas for the whole of the UK (IMD, 2015). Within the last 9 years,
levels of deprivation in Kent have also increased relative to other areas of England (Department
for Communities and Local Government, 2015). Ashford and Swale are the two highest ranking
in terms of increase in deprivation in Kent which, to place into context, also has seen a
significant rise in resources for infrastructure and social housing (Kent County Council, 2018)
24
relative to other parts of the county. This suggests that these areas have increased their
vulnerability by having closer links with bigger cities and therefore the potential for gang related
activity.
Equally, when identifying those most at risk, looked after children are amongst the most
vulnerable, if not the most vulnerable of all populations (Munro, 2001). This is due to a
multitude of factors; most looked after children have experienced some form of abuse in early
childhood (Frost and Mills, 2019; Cocke and Allain, 2019). Given this understanding, Kent has
the third highest number of children’s homes within the local authority, superseded only by The
Midlands and the North West. Kent has 80 state run and managed residential children’s homes
within a 1400-mile radius (NHS, 2018), most of these placements falling with the Thanet,
Medway and Dover Wards. In relation to CSE, this is a serious issue as those with areas with the
high levels of deprivation and child poverty, Thanet and Medway, are also home to those most
vulnerable of the population. The Kent and Medway Safeguarding Board are aware of this and
have taken steps to tackle this, however, the issue is not isolated and with levels of deprivation
rising, CSE is also on the increase. The understanding, based upon current literature, suggests
that the way in which CSE is also evolving is making it more difficult for KSGCB to keep up
with emerging trends. Research is needed to assess in real time, the way CSE is affecting the
local population. This is linked closely with online CSE and the way young people are accessing
services. The St Giles report has suggested that Kent has been proactively sharing models of best
practice to be consistent with other boroughs, however, this is still in need of improvement.
Child sexual exploitation is an issue nationally, but literature and reports suggest that Kent
has some of the highest incidences recorded of CSE in a localised area (Kent County Council,
25
2019), likely due to its unique geographical position. Many reports have been written, each
acknowledging the problem exists, suggesting strongly that multi agency working is integral to
reducing the prevalence of CSE (Kent Safeguarding Board, 2017; 2016; Department for
Education, 2017; Office of the Children's Commissioner, 2012). It has also been recommended
that local authorities and agencies deal with these issues in a localised way (Ofsted, 2016; ScottClark, 2019). Given these recommendations, however, neither practitioners nor academics have a
definitive understanding of how CSE manifests itself in Kent nor how multi agency working
should be implemented in a practical way. To understand the nature of CSE and begin to unpick
the complex problem, qualitative research can provide a basis with which to explore and begin to
define how CSE is perceived by professionals. This can inform further quantitative research
which is more generalisable (Appelbaum, Cooper, Kline, Mayo-Wilson, Nezu and Rao, 2018;
Nardi, 2018; Else-Quest and Hyde, 2016) as well as being of practical importance to the target
population i.e. professionals in Kent multi agencies.
However, the multi-agency strategy implemented across Kent is not consistent between
agencies and, to date, there has been no research which attempts to understand how and why
multi-agency working is so successful. To assess their experiences of what CSE means in the
county, this study will aim to explore a regional perspective of CSE professionals’ perceptions
and responses to CSE.
It will ask; what are CSE perceptions of the nature of CSE in their local area and what are
CSE professionals’ perceptions of internal and external responses to CSE? These questions will
help to inform the literature to facilitate further research in the area.
26
Method
Approach and Design
To understand the nature of CSE and begin to unpick the complex problem, qualitative
research can provide a basis with which to explore and begin to define how CSE is perceived by
professionals. This can inform further quantitative research which is more generalisable
(Appelbaum, Cooper, Kline, Mayo-Wilson, Nezu and Rao, 2018; Nardi, 2018; Else-Quest and
Hyde, 2016) as well as being of practical importance to the target population i.e. the
professionals. Due to the nature of the topic, there is a need to explore the phenomenon of CSE
in a flexible way which describes the individual’s experiences in a meaningful manner.
Quantitative methods cannot account for this as it’s aims are to quantify and predict relationships
(Bernard, 2017). This is not only unhelpful in understanding perceptions of professionals who
work with CSE, but may also be detrimental as it will omit nuanced data which may prove
imperative to understanding how and why multi agency working is effective in combating it. It is
understood and accepted that this research will not provide a generalised view of CSE from the
27
perspective of professionals, yet this qualitative element is needed to facilitate further research
which will be better placed to do this.
The way in which this research has been undertaken can best be viewed by taking a
pragmatic constructivist approach (Wincup, 2017; Nørreklit, Raffnsøe-Møller and Mitchell,
2016), understanding that the professional’s experiences are not the key to an absolute truth of
what CSE is or how it manifests. It is acknowledged that the researcher is not removed from the
subject of CSE due to having a young child herself and having previously worked in a secondary
school and children's home in Kent. It is also assumed that no reality portrayed through the
professional’s experiences, is the absolute truth as the reality analysed is co-constructed between
the researcher and participant (Palaganas, Sanchez, Molintas, Visitacion and Caricativo, 2017).
Other approaches were considered, for example, the critical realist approach would have allowed
the researcher to acknowledge the reality through a lens of socio-cultural meanings, perhaps
allowing further probing into the culture of the agencies involved. However, this would not have
fit the overall design due to the differences between participants group identities. To achieve the
aim of a rich and pragmatic study in a reliable and rigorous fashion, a phenomenological design
was employed, more specifically Thematic Analysis (TA) (Braun and Clarke, 2006). Utilising
phenomenological design, the aim of this research is to accurately describe the nature of CSE,
and the perceptions of professionals involved in working with the topic, whilst maintaining true
to the facts. Welman and Kruger (1999) describe researchers of phenomenology as being
“concerned with understanding social and psychological phenomena from the perspectives of
people involved”. Thus, understanding the lived experiences of the professionals involved
without any pre-existing framework or hypothesis (Greene, 1997; Holloway, 1997; Kruger,
1988; Kvale, 1996; Maypole & Davies, 2001; Robinson & Reed, 1998).
28
Participants
Participants were recruited via purposive sampling; the researcher used existing contacts
within the School of Law, Criminal Justice and Policing, to recruit individuals who worked
specifically in agencies that had direct contact with CSE in Kent. The inclusion criteria ensured
that all participants had first-hand experience in working with victims and/or perpetrators of CSE
and had worked within the county of Kent. Using this method 13 professionals were recruited
from across Kent, UK. These included; one social worker, four safeguarding leads from a local
secondary school, three police officers, two local authority workers, one Early Help team
member, a CSE champion for a local children’s home and one multi-agency worker. The sample
included 6 males and 7 females. The mean participant age was 42 ranging from 30 to 56 years
old. The length of service for the participants agency ranged from 1 to 24 years. All demographic
data were collected in the interest of understanding the sample and not for analysis purposes for
which only place of work was utilised, the literature also suggests that demographic data can
impact on performance and experience (Glomseth, Gottschalk and Solli-Saether, 2007;
Gottschalk and Holgersson, 2006). It is relevant to also note that all the participants were
caucasian and had lived in Kent for more than five years which relates to the representativeness
of the sample.
Demographics
The researcher sought professionals who represented the partnership agencies involved in the
multi-agency teams in Kent to ensure the sample was representative and provide reliable data.
The age and length of service was also collected to support the findings; however, no other
demographic data was deemed important to the current study.
Materials
29
Semi Structured Interview
After reviewing the literature on potential data collection techniques available, it was
decided that the most appropriate form would be the semi structured interview. Bernard (1988)
suggests that the semi structured interview is useful when two or more researchers are collecting
data in the field. In this study, there were two researchers collecting data at different times,
therefore to control for this, a semi structured interview gives a clear set of guidelines to follow
which ensures reliable and comparable qualitative data. The semi-structured interview allows for
open ended questions and elaboration by both the researcher and participants. This is extremely
important in the exploration of perceptions as it provides the freedom for expansion and the
opportunity for identifying new ways of understanding the topic. Focus groups were considered
for the study as they would allow the researcher to gather a large amount of data in a smaller
space of time, however, due to the sensitive nature of the topic and political aspects of multiagency working, it was considered an inappropriate form of data collection. It may have
inhibited disclosure due to the presence of another.
The semi structured interview which has been used to guide and inform the interview
process (Appendix c) consisted of 13 questions and has been developed using a two-part format
based upon a structure which could best discern information relating to the research aims. This
has been grouped into two sections; perceptions and responses. These were then further
categorised into agency (Questions: 3, 8, 9, 10 and 12) or respondent (Questions: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,
7 and 13) perceptions and responses to understand the differences between individuals and their
reporting body or agency. This was integral to the study as it provided a wider context for the
awareness of CSE, giving the analysis an overview of the landscape.
30
The questions included within the interview script, directly address some main issues raised
within the previous literature surrounding CSE. For example; a report from the Office of the
Children's Commissioner (2016) recommended multiple agencies working with a model which
involves all healthcare law enforcement professionals, were responsible for identifying the issue
of CSE in their local areas. This included identifying the extent of the issue and nature of the
criminal activity. We purposely used wording such as “which agencies do you believe to be
responsible for CSE?” and “how well do you think the nature and extent of the issue is
understood by police and other agencies?” to establish how agencies are perceiving their duty of
care and responsibility. It was also important to understand their perceptions of the reported
increase both nationally and locally and why they thought this may be. Reports (Home Office,
2017; Kelly and Karsna, 2017) have suggested that there has been a spike in reported incidents in
the last five years, it was integral to the study to identify if this was also experienced by the
professionals themselves, the outcomes of which would prompt further research. Within the
theme of perceptions, we also wanted to explore the relationship between CSE and the nature of
criminality in the local area. This was also expanded by the question “has there been an increase
in the nature of offending, such as gang activity, which would contribute towards a marked
increase in CSE offences?” to ascertain the professionals view of the types of criminality
associated with CSE.
The literature which has influenced the responses element, is directly based upon the
recommendations of the Kent Safeguarding Annual Report (2016). This specified the need for
effective multi agency working and recognition of the successes and pitfalls with such a
structure. To reflect this, we asked questions around their thoughts on the effectiveness of the
way in which their agency interacts with others and any examples of successful and less
31
successful incidences. It was also important to explore the thoughts of professionals around the
amount of resources invested in their efforts to tackle CSE, further understanding whether they
believe this to be adequate. Stemming from the governmental increase in funds for many areas of
tackling CSE (Home Office, 2017) it is important to note whether this is translating into actual
experiential differences for those delivering the service. Finally, it was important for us to
comprehend the value placed on “inquisitive working” by professionals as it was identified as a
key difference between successful and non-successful working with CSE (Howard, 2017;
Bovarnick, Scott and Pearce, 2017; Brown, 2016; Afroge, 2007). The questions were piloted
with undergraduate students in Policing at Canterbury Christ Church University to test validity
and ease of access to the educated lay person. This has helped to control for miscommunication
and convolution which may have affected the data analysis. The mean time of interviews was 43
minutes (SD= 18.12) .
Procedure
Prior to study commencement, ethical approval was sought and accepted by Canterbury
Christ Church University (approval number: 17/SAS/45F) and the researchers adhered to British
Psychological Society (BPS) and British Society of Criminology guidelines. Interviews were
conducted by two of the named authors over an eighteen-month period, between 2018 and 2019.
Two of the named authors were involved in data collection, of which the first interview was
jointly conducted to ensure consistency and reliability. This also allowed for both researchers to
learn the structure and observe how the interview should ideally operate. The first author began
data collection as a part of a larger project which was established within the School of Law,
Criminal Justice and Policing at Canterbury Christ Church University. The skills of both
researchers, teaching and previous work with vulnerable populations, satisfied the ethical
32
considerations around the sensitivity of data being collected as well as informing further research
within the larger project. To recruit our specific sample, we used both internal and external
contacts. Once they showed interest in the project, one-to-one interviews were arranged which
took place either on University premises where appropriate or at the participants place of work.
All interviews were conducted in an isolated room and the comfort of participants was ensured.
Before the interview was scheduled, all participants were given an information sheet (Appendix
d) in advance to maintain a level of transparency and ensure all parties are happy with the
content. The participants were assured that all interviews will be anonymous and redacted where
necessary to protect the identity of both the individual, organisation and others. They were also
given the option to request information to be omitted in transcription. In line with all core ethical
guidance, participants were advised they were able to withdraw from the study at any time until
publication. Once the participants had read and understood the information sheet, they were
given the consent form (Appendix e) and the opportunity to ask any questions to maintain trust
and transparency. The consent form contained all relevant information about the researchers and
how to contact them should they wish to withdraw. The interviews then commenced using an
Olympus Dictaphone. To further control for sensitive disclosure and to adhere to General Data
Protection Regulations (GDPR), each audio recording was recorded on one Dictaphone and
stored on an encrypted memory stick, accessible by named researchers. After the interviews,
participants were debriefed verbally, and interviewees had further opportunity to ask questions.
The consent form and information sheet were stored separately from the audio data to ensure
complete anonymity. Interviews were transcribed at the earliest opportunity with transcription
beginning during data collection and initial results were written up as notes. This aided analysis
as it enabled initial patterns to emerge and form before TA could begin. Verbatim transcription
33
was also synonymous with the anonymisation of data and was conducted by only one author,
during which redaction occurred and the audio separated from the final transcript. This protected
the identities of all participants and their agencies, also controlling for bias during analysis, both
in terms of demographic data and professional biases. To aid transcription, the qualitative
programme NVivo (Bazeley and Jackson, 2013) was employed which enabled the researcher to
transcribe and collate initial themes early in the process. Once all data had been collected,
anonymised and transcribed, data analysis was conducted using Applied Thematic Analysis
utilizing Braun and Clarkes (2006) six step procedure, during which, a second coder was
employed to maintain rigor and a strong intercoder agreement established.
Reflexivity
Reflexivity addresses the ways the researcher and the research process may shape the data
collected, identifying prior assumptions and experience.
Prior Assumptions
The researcher conducted the study with awareness of their prior assumptions. Identifying as a
mother and survivor of child sexual abuse, the researcher engaged in reflective practice which
facilitated a control of biases. Similarly, these identities aided the process as it enabled the desire
to understand the area further through the current study. Furthermore, by having a different
perspective themselves, the researcher can analyse the data through a different lens, achieving a
new level of analysis. As a master’s student in forensic psychology, the researcher understood
the offenders of CSE prior to the study commencement. This aided the interview process as
conversations were informed and a better rapport could be built.
Awareness of social and political context
34
During the initial discussions regarding the research, the fact that participants were recruited
from both a policy level and applied field may show a commitment to a strong personal or
political agenda which could influence the reliability of the findings. The researcher understood
this and has accounted for the potential bias in analysis by naming the agency and addressing the
political landscape during literature review.
Setting and social distance between the researcher and the researched
Many of the interviews were conducted in the interviewee’s workplace or at the Canterbury
Christ Church University. All interviews were face to face which allowed for an open and
comfortable situation, improving the potential quality of data. The researcher was acutely aware
that both the participant and they were from a similar background and worked in a similar area.
This meant the interview was conducted on an even setting and socially, both were able to
communicate in an effective way.
Data Analysis
Thematic Analysis as a mainstream qualitative analysis, allows the researchers to expand the
study past the individual participants experiences to the agencies themselves, developing a more
comprehensive and richer picture of how CSE manifests in a regional context. Braun and Clarke
(2006)s’ TA approach, provides a flexible and interactive framework for effective data analysis,
accepting an experiential method with an inductive approach to exploring data and is cited as the
most useful to capture the complexities of meaning within a textual data set (Terry, Hayfield,
Clarke and Braun,2017). Moreover, the study also adopted an Applied Thematic Analysis (Guest,
MacQueen and Namey, 2011) technique, attempting to use research to solve a practical problem,
namely, “how do professionals perceive and respond to CSE?” when interpreting results. As with
mainstream TA, this assumes the language used by the participant is key to understanding their
35
experiences of child sexual exploitation (Tolich, 2018), however, expands on this and focuses on
keywords that are aimed at progressing the practicality of the research, with a view to inform
policy and procedure.
After all data was transcribed the analysis began utilizing Braun and Clarkes’ (2006) six
phases of thematic analysis, the researcher first spent time reading the transcripts (Appendix f)
and familiarizing themselves with the data. This took several hours and included note taking on
initial analytic observations. The process of familiarization and generating initial codes fed back
into the overarching approach of co creating the reality of CSE with the professionals as the
researcher was paramount to interpreting the experiences relayed. This enabled a more in-depth
analysis placing the data in context of the subject area, therefore having a more relevant and
applied perspective. After initial notes were made, it was easier to then cluster the codes (initial
notes) and search for themes. When searching for superordinate themes, the researcher looked
for links between codes and began to understand how many of the codes interacted on different
levels. These evolved into subordinate themes and sat within the superordinate themes. The data
were then reviewed to ensure the way we had coded were a good “fit” for the overall design
(Maxwell, 2012). The process of defining and naming both the super and subordinate themes
was time consuming and required the researcher to be able to understand the overarching
message of the category. Ongoing analysis took place at this point, to ensure the essence of each
theme was captured in a succinct way. This part of the process allowed The analytical process
was further refined by further and numerous comparisons between the data and the concepts and
patterns previously identified. (Braun, Clarke and Weate, 2016). Finally, the researcher
transforms the analysis into an interpretable piece and utilised extracts from the data to enhance
and support their findings.
36
Results
Thematic analysis was applied to the transcribed data set and elicited key concepts evident
from the researcher’s interpretation of the information. The themes identified are essential in
determining all the interviewed professionals’ understandings of child sexual exploitation in
Kent. These themes are categorized and labelled as “It’s and Everybody problem”, “Teams are
more than just the jobs people do”, “Who cares?”, “Too many cooks” and “Learning from the
past is changing the future”. Within each of these themes, subthemes were also identified which
aim to recognize and acknowledge the nuances of patterns in the perceptions of the
professionals. These subthemes are related to the overarching categories, yet distinct in the
stance which they are viewed from. The themes are not mutually exclusive.
Superordinate
Theme
It’s an
“Everybody”
problem
Kent specific CSE
characteristics
Teams are more
than just the jobs
people do
Too many cooks
Subordinate Themes
Community
engagement and
response play a
huge part
Kent CSE models
Physical
proximity of a
team increases
effective working
Working by other
people’s rules
Learning from the
past is changing
the future
Unique
experience
sharing
Is there ever
enough training?
Inquisitiveness in
professionals
What happens
after? Strength of
support
Definitions are
barriers to
effective working
Awareness of
issues is shaping
personal views
Building
resilience in
children
Acknowledgment
of failings in the
past
We will never
get to the heart
of it
37
It’s an “Everybody” problem
This theme encapsulates participants feeling that all agencies are responsible for tackling
CSE. Multi agency working is an integral part of the government mandated initiative to “tackle
CSE”, there are also provisions for local community involvement. Participants often expressed
the understanding that this is an effective way to work at a local level and discussed the notion
that it is a responsibility of everyone who is in contact with children, not only agencies, to work
together. Findings suggest that this is the responsibility of everyone involved yet are unclear how
this is addressed in application.
‘It isn't down to any one agency or provision to necessary tackle it head on. It has a
formulation in combination with the channel process etc. etc. and working with the police but
actually tackling head on is all our roles.’ (Safeguarding Lead)
Some participants focused on the “role” of the agency and the responsibility which comes
with the job. Linked to a feeling of identity and duty within the working environment, they
derive this from the way an agency responds. On a practical level, these responses and
perceptions of other agency responsibilities are diverse across agencies which can be seen when
comparing data.
I find my group was a really good multiagency people around us. Again, you might have
some silos, in health if you get camps or those kinds of health service professionals involved
38
again they have a very medical model. (Private Children home and foster company CSE
Champion)
So really it's around. for my role it's around the risk assessment and the sharing of
information with other professionals to my view to target it so effectively it's going to be a joined
up approach, be that with all of the professionals that we normally deal with but actually the
community as a whole (Police)
These differences are not described as a positive or a negative element, each participant can
appreciate the differences and identify accordingly which suggests a cohesive level of working in
partnership with other agencies, regardless of integral differences in approach which is reflected
in the current assessment for KSGB in Kent (Kent Safeguarding Board, 2016).
Community engagement and response play a huge part
Participants expressed the feeling that agencies are not only responsible for their part,
specific to their organisation, but also that wider community involvement is integral to the
effectiveness of the multi-agency set up. The responsibility goes beyond simply doing their job,
there is a feeling of it being a duty of care which everyone within the agencies needs to uphold at
a personal level and is an important responsibility.
‘It's everyone community wardens police the fire brigade is anyone sat around that table
and it's anyone that has day to day dealings with young people. Middle aged people. Anyone that
39
comes into contact. It's got that responsibility but not only that for tackling it it's all a lot of
responsibility’ (Private Children home and foster company CSE Champion)
This resonates with the government and independent reports published which suggests that
by involving the wider community, agencies can provide a more proactive rather than reactive
response (Heslop, 2011). On a broader level, based upon the understanding that CSE is multifaceted and affects many aspects of the community, a more holistic approach could be more
effective. Although the findings suggest an awareness of the need for community engagement,
this is an abstract concept and vague when it comes to the specifics of an operational response.
The professionals also quote research, feeding into a larger understanding of how data is
being used to inform actual response to CSE in the local area regarding this widening of
engagement.
‘But actually, looking at the intelligence you get. It's about parks it's about town squares it's
about places where people gather and then that means it's not just about social workers youth
workers you schools’ police it's also about know local taxi firms that your district councils it's
everything.’ (Private Children home and foster company CSE Champion)
Some agencies focussed more on the way in which to increase this engagement, relevant to
their roles and expertise. Safeguarding leads and the CSE champion of a private children’s home
homed in on the role parents play when tackling CSE. This indicated an awareness of a child
40
centred perspective of CSE in which criminality is not the key aspect and is treated as a public
health and education issue.
That's really hard. I think parents I think.. I think parents need to be more involved to reach
that ideal time.
The link between this understanding of parental or caregiver involvement and nature of CSE
in Kent is also indicated through the professional’s examples of cases which have been
successful and those which haven’t. Safeguarding leads, local authority workers and Early Help
staff understood well the importance of communicating and training parents as part of a wider
multi agency team however didn’t offer much in the way of how this could be achieved. An
understanding was not widely seen within police officers which could be explored but was
strongly prevalent in all school or health-based professionals.
[I would have a]..massive wraparound services from.. from education getting in early
getting the teaching in mega and young stand in supporting the staff there then providing that
education and then support the young people through youth services but also have that support if
it does happen to them as well as wrap around with the families because actually it generally
starts with them. (Health Link Worker)
Furthermore, in exploring the idea of child centred approach, some participants described
ways in which you can pre-emptively involve the children affected, those at greater risk and give
them an amount of agency over their situation and future. Again, this is an abstract concept and
41
only one agency was able to explain how they were actively doing this. This links with the
subtheme of training and resources as it is the lack of both which lead to agencies not being able
to deliver these services.
But I think if you're protecting children if you're building their resilience you know we're
talking that's our practice model resilience attachment secure base and all of that. If you can
start building that confidence, it's those protective factors that you're mitigating against their
adverse childhood experiences and all those kind of risk factors that they take. (Private Children
home and foster company CSE Champion)
Compounding this, it was also discussed how important it is to build good relationships with
children both before CSE happens, with those that are more at risk and during or after.
I think that leads to a better outcome. And having worked in child protection before and
having repeated visits to victims I'd certainly have a better rapport dealing with the same family.
So my view would be to have more professionals and police officers working locally to be able to
deal with those children (Police)
The interpretation of this child centred way of thinking leads into the generalisable idea that
it is everybody’s problem, even the children. Children are strongly seen as victims but also as
active participants in their learning or resilience building (giving them some agency). However,
42
as seen in the next subtheme, this notion seems to only be perceived with importance during the
prevention and intervention stages.
What happens after? Strength of support
This subtheme captures some participants frustrations and feeling helpless or disappointed
when the children don’t receive the correct support after their involvement has concluded.
That’s sort of what do you do with people who are on the fringes of CSE as do you just milk
them for all the information that you can get and then drop them or do you actually provide
therapeutic support for them to be able to move beyond. That. Is that traumatic experience in
their life. (Early Help)
Sorry we don’t have the resources to do that. Yes. And that’s frustrating at times..but..there
will always be disappointments (Social Worker)
Almost every agency expressed some feelings that they felt they could and should be doing
more to support children and this was also throughout the process, rather than just after a case
concludes. However, lack of resources hindered this. Moreover, it highlights the understanding
that the holistic way of addressing the problem is most effective, yet unobtainable given the
resources and structure.
43
But that will mean a reduction. And the end line it's meant to be more focussed more
holistic. Looking to put the child at number one, but there'll be job cuts. There's less services.
(Local Authority)
The professionals’ perceived lack of resources as inhibiting support throughout the whole
journey of a child which further highlights that whilst professionals seem to have a clear idea
about what works best, this is not actually achievable.
The data suggests that a lack of resources has an effect not only on the practical responses to
tackle CSE but also on the personal motivations of a team. By not being able to deliver the
services they feel they want and should be able to, individuals feel that they are letting children
down. This is a difficult feeling to not take personally and many participants expressed personal
feelings of disappointment which affected the team dynamic; it does however have the
counterintuitive effect of bringing a team closer as they are all working with “what they have”
and need to support each other even more so in order to achieve a joint objective.
“We should be doing thing with that young person and looking into this sort of the people
that are influencing and and, in my view, exploiting that young person when it's been looked at
by the broader attainments here. I'm. Sorry we don't have the resources to do that” (Social
Worker)
44
But that will mean a reduction. And the end line it's meant to be more focussed more
holistic. Looking to put the child at number one, but there'll be job cuts. There's less services.
(Local Authority)
The professionals’ perceived lack of resources as inhibiting support throughout the whole
journey of a child which further highlights that whilst professionals seem to have a clear idea
about what works best, this is not actually achievable in real life.
Kent specific CSE characteristics
This theme is concerned with the models of CSE that participants said they are experiencing
in Kent and the perpetrators, including child victims as perpetrators. The overarching theme
identified gang related and online CSE as the two most discussed and topical models, however,
not the most prevalent as seen through referrals.
Kent CSE models
The two largest concerns for most of those interviewed are gang related e.g. county lines
and online exploitation. They suggested these two forms of CSE are the most focussed upon,
however, there was no definitive comment as to whether these were the most prevalent. This is
linked with the difficulty in obtaining data to supported or dispute this.
Gangs are a massive focus because it is all interlinked but that's kind of almost the new
focus of the funding is a major buzz word. I think in terms of referrals I think we've seen that
45
they're talking more about gangs now.... (Private Children home and foster company CSE
Champion)
The awareness of gangs being a “buzz word” is more related to the idea of government
funding and resources, than prevalence and actuarial evidence as to what is the biggest issue in
the area. It is also important to consider the social and political context of these findings. The
funding is channelled into areas which the policy makers and government want it to, to further
their personal agendas. This is not necessarily where it is most needed, based upon empirical
evidence.
Almost all participants that discussed gang related issues also suggested that they believe it
to be a bigger problem than “we first realised”.
Erm.. and the knowledge that that's the case would be quite frightening for people really
because it's against the larger ..larger organizations mostly ICG level criminality that we
become aware of. But actually it's it's a lot more than we thought. (Police)
I think and I think we've probably got a lot more gang related CSE than we think we have.
(Early Help)
Some participants suggested reasons for the “rise” in gang related CSE based upon their own
experiences including a rising rate of deprivation and links to London strengthening. Some
specialist agencies also suggested external changes such as an influx of looked after children
46
coming from London as a contributing factor, demonstrating an understanding of the landscape
of CSE at a larger strategic level.
The impact of coastal economies that struggle and then are you know yeah deprivation but
then equally if it doesn't it doesn't. So another is I think there is an element of it's transient. Are
not a transit. London is close to London. Also close to lots of good transport and communication
networks. Also, they bring in other elements while criminal elements exploits developments.
We've obviously picked up lots of unaccompanied minors so you see the other elements of
exploitation young people being trafficked into this country and then needing now you can see.
The breadth of this. I think there might be something to do with it. (Private Children home and
foster company CSE Champion)
However, this was not seen in every agency and may be a deficit of training or due to job role
not necessarily a lack of awareness. It is also possible that, as discussed, this is not the most
prevalent type seen but is a buzzword in some agencies and not others.
Within the participants discussion of gang related CSE, observations were also made as to
the profile of a CSE perpetrator. It was well understood amongst all that there is no profile which
can be used for identification. This supports the current literature, however, reinforces the idea
that this information is being understood at an operational level. It causes difficulties for both
identification of victims and offenders. This is even more apparent concerning identification of
child victims as they are also not always from the typical “vulnerable” background and may also
present as a perpetrator.
47
It's easy to say no it falls into. One particular racial group or..one particular section of
society you know it's always gonna be..from the poorer and more deprived ends of society but
that's not the case. We've had people from all walks of life. Come to our notice as perpetrators
and all across the county obviously because the victims are spread all over the county so they
can be anybody (Early Help)
The perception of children as both victims and perpetrators is a topic which elicited a lot of
emotion amongst all interviewed. They understood the difficulty from the side of the law in
identifying them and treating them accordingly. However, those that were not involved in
prosecution focussed on children being supported and not criminalized but treated as victims.
The feeling coming from several interviews is that the idea of children as victims is not as widely
understood across the agencies. This adds a further complication to the already complicated
safeguarding process in Kent. It is further compounded by the “peer on peer” model, which sees
young people coerced into becoming offenders.
Well I think there's still we still try and battle or I've certainly seen young people being
criminalized and being seen as not seen as victims of this but perpetrators now obviously young
people can be involved in the criminal process and the exploitation process. But again, still their
victims have been drawn into that something from my point of view personally. (Social Worker)
Online CSE had also been discussed by all participants in some way, either a fear that it was
making it easier for other forms of exploitation to occur or pin pointing specific ways in which
online exploitation had evolved to become its own issue in Kent. Online CSE seems to be
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interlinked with almost every model of CSE experienced in Kent due to the prevalence of
technology and youth culture.
The online CSE I mean there's loads and loads and loads of that and the and the victims are
getting younger and younger and younger...I see younger and younger people walk around with
smartphones...and play games on them that bring them into contact with the outside world in a
way yes. (Safeguarding Lead)
Age is a major concern with agencies as they suggest that online exploitation has become
more prevalent with the younger children. To combat this, training is available to some
safeguarding officers, which attempt to mediate the problem. However, again the issue of
resources can hinder the training available. This is only effective all the while the young people
are at school, professionals accept that this is only one small part of their day and that issues still
occur outside of school times which they attempt to deal with.
Overall, many agencies explained that their focus is on online and gang related CSE,
however, some expressed concerns that this is not what is seen through referrals. Agencies
explained that the most prevalent models seen in Kent are “peer on peer” and the
“boyfriend/girlfriend model”.
“I think we probably have most referrals about teenage girls who are generally white
British. But that's in the context of the boyfriend model and other situations where we've been
worried about maybe what's happening more locally” (Social Worker)
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This contrasts with what the government is placing emphasis on, both from the findings and
previous research. This leads into the way the government has responded in terms of advertising.
Social workers described the most recent posters available and expressed concerns that this does
not necessarily reflect what we see in Kent, highlighting the disparity between what policy
makers place emphasis on without understanding the individual areas. The perception of
professionals highlights the local profile vs. the national profile and supports the need for
localised multi-agency teams which feedback to national policy makers.
“..We have had some situations where we've been worried about larger groups of young people
but we have a vulnerable group of young people who have got into relationships with older men
who they wouldn't have identified. That is exploitation but it very clearly is. erm that makes it
much bigger than just the poster you get on the wall with you. Have you seen the one with a girl.
Anything actually that is narrowing it to a point that you might you might then lose track of other
bits that are really important..” (Social Worker)
Teams are more than just the jobs people do
Professionals demonstrated a feeling that an effective team is more than a group of
professionals working toward a common goal with differing expertise. They identified different
facets which contribute to them feeling supported and part of a strong group.
“.. but I do think that that sort of whole multiagency thing is very very important...and I think a
central team rather than all the sort of little parts you have a central picture...which means...that
the local people are being informed about stuff that they're not aware of that is outside that local
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area...and ideally they should also be feeding stuff into the centre so that we get the benefits of
their local knowledge.” (Safeguarding Lead)
Physical proximity of a team increases effective working
Those interviewed expressed feelings that being in a small team was imperative to their
effective working, not only in terms of actual communication but also in geographical proximity.
Being in one location with the ability to sit around “a table” increased the team’s productivity
and the swiftness of operational response. This seemed to be based upon the ease of sharing
information, understanding how other agencies were practically dealing with an issue and the
way in which they could collaborate to form a response.
I think we're certainly much better without him being co-located. That makes it much
quicker to to share information to learn around it because we are a central team in one location
(Police)
The closeness of a team, both in terms of relationships and location also increased the
motivation of individuals. They seemed to derive emotional “satisfaction” from being able to
deal with issues in a timely fashion, giving a sense of control and effectiveness as individuals
within a larger team, driving more effective working practices.
We've had a stuff come in in the morning and by the end that doesn't identify the victim and
doesn't have identify any associates but by detective work with all the different agencies involved
we've ended up end of the day having them being fairly certain who the victim is where they live
51
who their contacts are how they got drawn into it in the first place erm..and that's really exciting
to work and doesn’t always happen like that. (Early Help)
Underpinning this is the suggestion of passion pushing individuals to succeed at their own
roles, whilst working together and seeing results. These results are more than “accomplished and
productive work”, the nature of the area means that individuals are personally invested and feel a
sense of pride when they can help children. This seems to be the main emotive incentive which
helps to keep teams effective when resources are not available. You can understand this passion,
not only by explicit expression but also by the disappointment felt when the teams are not
successful.
“I've raised stuff about a young person that I've researched and I feel quite passionately
about things like that” (Early Help)
This subjective understanding of team working has not been discussed within literature yet
is integral to the data collected and strengthens the mandated localised team working. REF
Too many cooks
Some professionals expressed frustrations at having to work within the confines of other
agencies rules and guidelines. This causes friction on a personal and professional level,
becoming a hinderance not only to practical working environments but also enforces barriers to
information sharing due to relational and attitudinal differences within individuals.
Working by other people’s rules
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Each agency representative explained how they have very different guidelines and
objectives when working to tackle CSE. Example; the policing main aim is to bring a perpetrator
to justice and secure a conviction. Secondary to this primary concern is helping children to
recover from the trauma. In contrast, safeguarding leads in schools are concerned with children’s
welfare in relation to their education. This is also different to social workers understanding of
their role which is to support and empower children whilst aiding the police investigation.
Although this is part of the role, legislatively they have the power to initiate proceedings which
further highlights the complicated safeguarding structure in England. These conflicting goals,
which are set and implemented at a more strategic level, seems to cause conflict when attempting
to work closely.
“its not a different different agenda, particularly because all involved in safeguarding.
But it is a different way of working out because of particular parts of the world that we operate
under such a responsibility and time scales can be different.” (Social Worker)
Definitions of CSE are barriers to effective working
There was an overwhelming feeling that the definitions of CSE that all agencies work with
are active barriers to support at every level. Although this was not discussed amongst all
interviewees, this is potentially due to the differing nature of the roles and the interaction they
may have with reporting and strategizing.
53
“So yes different parts for different things and for say if you just labelled it CSE you only get
one sort of help whereas if we call it various variations under the heading The CSE brand had a
name. Yeah. And that's what I think” (Local Authority)
Data suggest that by not being able to categorize CSE effectively at a government level, it
inhibits operative working that protects children adequately, at a localised level. Needing to
develop their own way of discussing and reporting CSE to navigate the “flawed system”
underpins a bigger problem within a multi-agency team regarding communication from the top
down.
I think that's the beauty of it because we just now devising those parts. We understand those
policy we're looking at those parts in different ways “ (Local Authority)
Lack of resources
The data suggests that a lack of resources has an effect not only on the practical responses to
tackle CSE but also on the personal motivations of a team. By not being able to deliver the
services they feel they want and should be able to, individuals feel that they are letting children
down. This is a difficult feeling to not take personally and many participants expressed personal
feelings of disappointment which affected the team dynamic; it does however have the
counterintuitive effect of bringing a team closer as they are all working with “what they have”
and need to support each other even more so to achieve a joint objective.
54
“We should be doing thing with that young person and looking into this sort of the people
that are influencing and and in my view exploiting that young person when it's been looked at by
the broader attainments here. I'm. Sorry we don't have the resources to do that” (Social Worker)
But that will mean a reduction. And the end line it's meant to be more focussed more
holistic. Looking to put the child at number one, but there'll be job cuts. There's less services..
(Local Authority)
The professionals’ perceived lack of resources as inhibiting support throughout the whole
journey of a child which further highlights that whilst professionals seem to have a clear idea
about what works best, this is not actually achievable in real life.
Learning from the past is changing the future
Learning played an important role in the interpretation of the data as it crossed the
boundaries of the simple understanding of learning to inform response. It was evident from
responses that participants and agencies have learnt from past mistakes which has informed
future understanding and operations. It also became apparent that learning is a continuous and
necessary process to attempt to understand the ever-changing nature of CSE and its
manifestations.
Unique experience sharing
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All participants stressed the influence that sharing unique experiences has on working in a
multi-agency team. By sharing information, they can quickly and effectively respond to
incidences, safeguarding children and bringing about prosecutions.
“We've got. Good relationships with ANONYMOUS vulnerable investigation teams good good
working relationships with them where we've been able to go out with with with them jointly and
speak to young people and say you know what happened. We've been hearing this and hearing
that and they're able to take a slightly different approach to us in questioning which can be
really helpful. And they have a bit of information that we might not have. So when we've had a
joint investigation and we've gone out we've gone out really quite prepared. About who the
adults might be what role they might be playing. Is there any other information we need to know
is information about the young person that we need to be aware of so that works really well and
not on a one to one level that can really get to go got quickly and get the information that we
think we need.” (Social worker)
All interviewees expressed how integral to multi-agency working, sharing experiences and
knowledge is. In terms of understanding what others are doing to tackle CSE, partner agencies
are able to feed in with their own expertise.
Moreover, learning from others’ experiences is sharing best practice, informing future work
and processes based upon what works and what doesn’t. This is also linked with research and
basing new practices on empirical findings as when best practice is seen, research is able to
reinforce those findings.
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“You speak to two police officers and they just staff they would understand obviously when
it's what they're looking for. Is they making sure that those other agencies that have and what
we're doing around them for example is putting on events or training days having shared”
(Police)
Awareness of issues is changings personal views
As professionals are exposed to more literature on the subject, the data suggests that
participants are becoming more aware of many aspects of CSE which is shaping and changing
personal views. These changing views are informing the way that professionals respond at an
individual level and positively affects the way in which they work together. By understanding
research which suggests that there is no profile available which can be used to identify a
perpetrator, professionals are less likely to make false identifications and will be more vigilant to
everyone, further safeguarding children. Equally, the opportunity to expand their personal view
appears to change the culture of certain agencies and challenge stereotypes of both victims and
perpetrators as well as prevalent models of CSE.
“I would say working in this district I would say we have staff that are incredibly curious
and who would work very hard erm to just make sure it's not really about that erm but exploring
everything they need to” (Social worker)
This demonstrates the recommendation from previous literature which states that inquisitiveness
in teams is integral to progressing the area. Perceptions of professionals are changing based upon
cultural changes which have begun to take effect in the last five years.
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Acknowledgment of failings in the past
In order to learn from mistakes of the past, the acknowledgement of failings need to be
accepted into the culture of the agencies. Within data sets, this acknowledgment was clear,
leading to a greater insight by the professionals of how to improve their working practices for the
future.
“I think that looking policing is a whole around CSE is that my view is that it's something
that's gone on for a long time that we have not been very ignorant around and it's only really
recently we've become more aware of it.” (Police)
We will never get to the heart of it
There is a strong feeling coming through from the data that we will never be able to get to
grips with the true extent of the issue in Kent. This is evident in the expressions of exasperations
by participants when they discuss how much they believe is currently known about the issue.
Although this is reflected in the literature, the true prevalence of CSE is widely accepted as
“unknown”, interviewees also discuss the fact that there are many factors which barriers are to
ever be able to accurately measure this. Criminality is discussed as one of the reasons, the
experience of children not feeling they can come forward for fear of prosecution themselves.
“And it's getting worse never get to the brink because every time you cut one head off the
snake another one grows With a very much like the drugs trade. People commodities and
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commodities is a drug. You know people want it and people will pay for it and that's the sad an
absolutely truth
free people human beings can be, awful.” (Safeguarding Lead)
Some participants describe the law as a barrier to victims coming forward and seeking help,
as they express concerns over whether the way in which the law enables or disables agencies to
adequately deal with CSE from start to finish. This also hinders the ability of individuals to
utilise the knowledge gained through research and experience to inform practice at a government
level.
Is there ever enough training?
Each agency representative did communicate that they believed there was adequate training
available to them at the present moment to deal with the workload they are currently dealing
with. However, some were unsure and hesitant to discuss whether this was adequate to tackle the
unknown extent of CSE and the changing nature of it.
I mean in terms of resources there is free training in Kent and I get my team to go on as
much as possible and some of that's been around we've just had some Marie Collins Foundation
and they should have just got some funding to do some work. We can't do in talking about online
safety but also looking at exploitation and CSE as part of that. (Private Children home and
foster company CSE Champion)
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Schools seem to be tackling the specific issue of online exploitation in the only way they can
control, by removing devices which enable access. This appears to be working and has
eliminated some of the issues within their remit of responsibility.
The students are not allowed to have the phones out even a break at lunch time. OK.
Because we will find in the messages and bully and confrontations and the stirring of those
things plus the sharing of images or what's happening during the school day so we don't have
those issues en masse like we used to.
The suggestion of children sharing images of each other, also fed into the wider discussion
of children as victims and perpetrators and training. Whilst some agencies spoke about receiving
some training regarding the use of images and wider online issues, it appeared that it is not a
priority. As recent literature on the prevalence of online CSE suggests (Perkins and Meridian,
2018; Berson, 2003), there should be more emphasis on training staff and children in the dangers
of online communication. This links to the findings highlighting the need to build resilience in
children. By involving children in this stage of intervention, it would help to combat and reduce
peer on peer CSE, thus safeguarding children from a different angle.
Discussion
The aim of this study was to initially explore a regional perspective of CSE professionals
and their perceptions and responses in a localized context. Doing this using Thematic Analysis
allowed for enough flexibility when coding the results, enabling the researcher to interpret data.
The first research question was concerned with the professional’s perceptions of the nature
of CSE in their local area. The findings demonstrate the professionals well-rounded
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understanding of the nature of CSE in Kent, identifying two perceived main models of CSE
which are focused on by the government, gang related CSE and online exploitation. The
discussions around the models, express firsthand accounts as well as shared experiences between
agencies which help to build a picture of their perceptions of the nature of CSE in the area.
However, gang related and online CSE were not identified as the models which are most
prevalent in Kent. The most prevalent models included these included; “peer on peer” and the
“boyfriend/girlfriend model” which contrasts with the way in which funding and emphasis is
placed by policy makers. Furthermore, the results identified several other themes which are only
possible due to the participants strong understanding of CSE in Kent.
The second research question aims to understand the same professionals’ perceptions of
internal and external responses to CSE within Kent. The focus of the interviews was multi
agency working based on the previous literature which has highlighted the importance of multiagency working yet has not investigated how or why this is the case. The data highlighted some
useful insights into how a team perceive the dynamic of a small, localized team affects the
outcome of their individual work. The physical proximity of a team was deemed to be integral
which is something which previous literature has not previously mentioned in relation to CSE
teams, although it has been the topic of discussion in organizational psychology (Triplett and
Loh, 2018). The literature base within organizational psychology places emphasis on the
interdependence and interactivity needed in a small team which depends on a physical element.
These themes emphasize the understanding of the participants of both their own agencies and
other partners responses to CSE. The findings also identified several areas of discussion which
need further research, for example; inquisitiveness within teams and how this is affecting culture
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and personal views, resilience in children and how this could be aided to reduce certain models
of CSE in Kent and how the local profile conflicts with the national profile of CSE.
Moreover, working within a small team that has no centralized guidelines was explored as
being a major barrier to effective practice. The participants discussed real emotions of
disappointment, frustration and stress when they felt their work and efforts were hindered due to
other agencies rules as well as a lack of resources to complete the task. From an organizational
psychology viewpoint, this is another vital element of successful and unsuccessful working in a
small team setting (Triplett and Loh, 2018). The team whose rules they need to adhere to feel
that their way of working is paramount and any challenges to this are a personal attack by an
outsider to their agency (Moulin and Ehrhart, 2018)). In contrast, those whom are attempting to
work autonomously feel that it is unjust to be hampered when they can fulfil their emotional and
work obligations.
One of the most prevalent patterns identified was that of a lack of support for children
throughout the process. This interlinked with the misunderstanding that children are also likely to
be both the victim and perpetrator in some models of CSE which is prevalent in the literature but
hasn’t been fully explored to ascertain the reasoning behind the issue. It is also related to the lack
of resources available to support children throughout the entire process, from identification to
after prosecution. Understanding the social and political landscape is integral when discussing
funding within a governmental body. It is also interlinked with the public perception and
obtaining a conviction. The children requiring support are no longer an active participant in the
process after convictions have taken place, therefore the money is utilised to obtain that
conviction rather than supporting children after this. This is further complicated when children
and victims are synonymous with each other.
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It is be suggested that individual personality, attitudinal and cultural difference play a part in
the lack of awareness and understanding of children who are also perpetrators. Training was also
highlighted as a potential factor contributing to the non-child centered way of thinking that some
agencies said they experience. By not appreciating and working under the premise that children
can be both victim and offender, this increases the risk of criminalizing child victims and
perpetuating a cycle of abused to abuser which has been seen across CSA and CSE literature
(Plummer and Cossins, 2018). This lack of training and awareness also limits the ability to learn
from each other and share best practice across agencies. However, the findings did suggest that
inquisitiveness amongst agencies has improved which was a recommendation from previous
reports. It suggests that the agencies and professionals are actively learning and appreciate the
complex arena which they operate within.
Participants gave examples of how the vagueness and discrepancies in the definition of CSE
across the UK have caused so many issues, they were having to use completely different
terminology to avoid the political fallout.
Previous studies have explored professionals’ perceptions with a view to understand what
works in terms of multi-agency and tackling CSE in general. Within this, recommendations were
made which emphasized the need for a collaborative team which has clear and purposeful
leadership across local safeguarding partner and is underpinned by effect information sharing
(DfE, 2017). The current study demonstrated that professionals in Kent perceive multi-agency
as effective, however, there are elements which have been uncovered which were not mentioned
in previous literature. The physical proximity of teams, for example, plays an integral role which
is reinforced by the psychology of small teams (Stewart, 2006). Curtis and Walz (1990) suggests
that further to this, to be effective, small teams must focus on the task rather than the
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organisation and allow members to work as if with one mind. This is apparent in the findings and
suggest there is an emotional component linked to the proximity of a team, the agency teams are
given and their motivation.
Previous research also drew attention to the need for inquisitive professionals in a CSE team
(DCSF, 2009). The commissioning of this study has demonstrated Kent professionals need and
want to improve their structures, thus showing inquisitiveness in the first instance. Clifford and
Sohal (1998) have recommended that by developing and fostering teams that are inquisitiveness
by nature, you are more likely to foster self-directed teams that take initiative. This is a positive
step for Kent and exhibits progress based upon recommendations made (Jay, 2013).
Previous literature has identified clear ways in which an effective multi agency team need to
operate to tackle CSE (Centre of Expertise on Child Sexual Abuse, 2017; ; Office of the
children’s Commissioner, 2012). This research has established a basis upon which to build
further research in a localised way. That further research would identify how these
recommendations should be strategized by exploring how CSE is tackled in an applied way, at a
localised level.
Weaknesses and limitations
The study has several limitations which could be improved in further research. For example.
Even though the reasoning behind purposive sampling is to capture a variety of experiences, the
participants were not representational of all agencies or roles involved in CSE within Kent. This
had the potential to bias or limit findings. Purposive sampling could also be subject to inherent
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bias as the contacts used were from one or two staff members at Christ Church University and
were all Caucasian, British. Furthermore, the access to participants was limited in part due to the
sensitive nature of the topic and bureaucracy within some agencies. With more time to build a
base of reliable contacts, this issue of flexibility in the interview schedule could increase the
diversity of the participants and aid a more informative study.
The decision to use a semi structured interview could also be a limitation of the
methodology as the questions were perhaps too restrictive in their remit. In future studies, it
would be sensible to explore ways in which these could be more inclusive of other elements of
the nature and response to CSE which would allow for more in depth responses. For example, by
focusing on multi agency working, there is not a huge emphasis placed on actual models of CSE
seen or how this manifest.
In order to meet deadlines, set by the Christ Church University, the time allocated to the
research was limited and therefore has hindered the possibility of a more robust analysis. This is
outside of the authors control, however, when considering further studies this should be
accounted for. Additionally, with more time available the researcher would be able to engage in
training for the use of specialist software which was unavailable within the time period. This
includes NVivo and transcription software, not only would this aid the researchers' own
understanding and help to inform the analysis, it would also improve the fluidity of the study and
give more time to interviewing.
Recommend further knowledge and studies
Based upon the findings of the current study, there are legal and procedural issues which
affect the positive outcomes of the local safeguarding teams; the definitions of CSE in the UK
cause problems both in the application of the law and reporting and the ability to understand the
65
prevalence of the issue which impacts the professionals response. It is recommended that this be
a focal point of further studies to ascertain how the definitions could be improved in order to aid
professionals in safeguarding children and researchers in collating data on CSE to inform best
practice. Furthermore, the problem of categorization of CSE within the law should be addressed
and better understood by researching the extent of the issues this causes from both a practical
viewpoint e.g. identification of victims, perpetrators and conviction and legal implications e.g.
potentially exploring ways in which to make CSE an offence in its own right to address these
shortcomings. By recognizing CSE in the law, rather than an umbrella term which encompasses
many offences, it would aid policy makers and professionals in addressing the issue across the
UK.
There is also further research to be conducted around the attitudinal differences and
understanding of children as perpetrators in CSE. Again, this falls within the realms of both
agencies and the law. This study found that agencies did not believe that it was a widely
understood part of CSE and this is causing many problems for both children and those
attempting to safeguard them. It also has the potential to affect prosecution, criminalizing
children which may then become a social issue, damaging those children’s relationships with
authority for the rest of their lives. Research has suggested that these children have a higher risk
of being involved with further criminal activity later in life (Papalia et al., 2018), therefore it is
not only a safeguarding issue in the present but also preventative and proactive to avoid future
financial implications for the criminal justice system and wellbeing for the individuals involved.
It is recommended that further research be conducted to decipher where these shortcomings in
knowledge can be addressed with training or perhaps is part of a larger issue with the culture of
some agencies, looking at potential interventions to manage these. Moreover, children should be
66
placed at the heart of the strategy agencies adopt to tackle CSE in a multi-agency team in order
to avoid these potential negative outcomes. The data currently does not support the assumption
that this is the case, yet teams suggest this is due to funding issues which would enable them to
support children throughout the process and reduce the probability that the children involved
would go on to offend later in life (Fritz et al., 2019). It is recommended that future research aids
third sector organizations in their attempt to urge the government to put more resources into this
area of CSE response.
The study highlighted the prevalence of online and gang related CSE in Kent. Based upon
these findings, it is recommended that more training for all agencies focus on these models and
create further inquisitiveness amongst professionals to understand how this manifest in smaller
boroughs.
Overall, these main recommendations require children’s perceptions to be researched to
understand the disparity between how agencies and children experience CSE. This is integral to
understanding the nature of CSE from a child victims’ perspective, how the model works in
practice, why children get involved and their experiences of the process which exists to
safeguard them. By understanding their perspective, policy makers and agencies are better placed
to create a model of best practice built on a robust empirical evidence base.
Equally, by exploring how children who have not experienced CSE, perceive the
phenomena, local authorities would be able to develop a strong intervention. Supported by strong
evidence, this intervention would be a proactive and pre-emptive way to safeguard children
before CSE occurs.
Underpinning all the recommendations, both qualitative and quantitative research is needed
in order to corroborate and enhance the current study. It is recommended that a mixed methods
67
design is adopted in the future in order to look at this multifaceted issue. Not only would this
increase the amount of data which could be analyzed, it will also give researchers and
practitioners a better understanding of CSE from all angles, inform best practice across the UK
and aid policy makers in making structural changes therefore leading to a better outcome for all
children involved in the future.
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79
Appendix a
“Child sexual exploitation is a form of child sexual abuse in which a person(s), of any age
takes advantage of a power imbalance to force or entice a child into engaging in sexual activity
in return for something received by the child and/or those perpetrating or facilitating the abuse.
80
[1] As with other forms of child sexual abuse, the presence of perceived consent does not
undermine the abusive nature of the act.”- Scottish Government, 2016
“Child sexual exploitation is the coercion or manipulation of children and young people
into taking part in sexual activities. It is a form of sexual abuse involving an exchange of
some form of payment which can include money, mobile phones and other items, drugs,
alcohol, a place to stay, ‘protection’ or affection. The vulnerability of the young person and
grooming process employed by perpetrators renders them powerless to recognise the
exploitative nature of relationships and unable to give informed consent”. – Wales Government,
2019
“Child sexual exploitation is a form of child sexual abuse. It occurs where an individual or
group takes advantage of an imbalance of power to coerce, manipulate or deceive a child or
young person under the age of 18 into sexual activity (a) in exchange for something the survivor
needs or wants, and/or (b) for the financial advantage or increased status of the perpetrator or
facilitator. The survivor may have been sexually exploited even if the sexual activity appears
consensual. Child sexual exploitation does not always involve physical contact; it can also occur
through the use of technology. “- DfE, 2016
‘Child sexual exploitation is a form of sexual abuse in which a person(s) exploits,
coerces and/or manipulates a child or young person into engaging in some form
of sexual activity in return for something the child needs or desires and/or for the
gain of the person(s) perpetrating or facilitating the abuse.’ – NI Government, 2014
81
Appendix b
Running head: The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse82
Appendix c
Countering CSE in Dover and Folkestone
Semi-Structured Interview Core Questions – Police and Other Agencies
Name: Lucy Grieg
Role: CSE Lead
Age:
Gender: Female
Years working for organisation:
1.
Can you summarise your background in [agency] and what your current responsibilities
are?
2.
Can you tell me about your involvement in countering CSE?
Perceptions of the CSE Problem
3.
What agencies (in your geographical area) do you believe to be responsible for dealing
with CSE?
4.
How well do you think the nature and extent of CSE in [your geographical area] are
understood by police and other agencies?
5.
What are your personal views on the nature and extent of CSE in [your geographical
area]?
6.
Have there been any social or demographic trends in recent years which have contributed
to the CSE problem?
7.
Has there been an increase in the number of potential victims?
8.
What are your thoughts surrounding the current nature of criminality in [your
geographical area] and how does this relate to CSE?
9.
Has there been an increase in the nature of offending, such as gang activity, which would
contribute towards a marked increase in CSE offences?
The Response to CSE
10.
How does (your agency) work with other agencies to tackle CSE?
11.
How effective do you think such work is?
12.
Do you have any examples of successes?
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse83
13.
Do you have any examples of problems in multi-agency work?
14.
Does [your agency] put enough resources into tackling CSE?
15.
If you could generate more countering CSE activity, what would it consist of?
16.
How well do you feel your agency is prepared to tackle CSE?
17.
What do you think of training in your agency (and that available externally) surrounding
countering CSE?
18.
Do you feel that there is enough inquisitiveness surrounding CSE?
Closing questions
19.
In an ‘ideal world’, what do you feel should happen for organisations to successfully
tackle CSE?
20.
Any other observations?
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse84
Appendix d
Understanding perceptions of Child Sexual Exploitation from the perspectives of
professionals in the South East of England
PARTICIPANT INFORMATION SHEET
A research study is being conducted at Canterbury Christ Church University (CCCU) by
Rebecca Thomson, Belinda Siesmaa and Katarina Mozova.
Background
We are conducting research to deepen our understanding of the extent of Child Sexual
Exploitation (CSE) in Kent and Medway (and particularly within the Folkstone/Shepway area)
together with how policy and practice in countering CSE is implemented. The focus will be on
practitioners in roles which encounter, and handle cases related to CSE, and/or carry
responsibility for countering the associated crimes or implementing preventative measures.
What will you be required to do?
Participants in this study will be required to take part in a pre-scheduled recorded interview, which
should last approximately one hour, with one of the above-named researchers.
To participate in this research you must:
●
Be over 18 years.
●
Be English speaking.
●
Work in a field related to identifying and or managing cases relating to CSE (and have
working knowledge of the policies and procedures in place when dealing with CSE cases) or
be in a professional role that carries some responsibility for preventing or countering CSE.
Confidentiality
All data and personal information will be stored securely within CCCU premises in
accordance with the Data Protection Act 1998 and the University’s own data protection
requirements. The procedures adopted will meet the EU General Data Protection Regulation
(GDPR). Data can only be accessed by the researchers named above. After completion of the
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse85
study, all data will be made anonymous (i.e. all personal information associated with the data will
be removed), and records will be stored for a maximum of five years. Please note that we will not
be asking you to disclose any sensitive information, however should any such disclosures occur
during the interview, which indicate safeguarding risks or criminal behaviour, we may not be able
to maintain strict confidentiality.
Dissemination of results
The results of the study will be shared via written report to the agencies involved and as a
journal article. Anonymity of participants will be maintained at all times, including in the written
report and in any subsequent articles.
Appendix d (cont.)
Deciding whether to participate
If you have any questions or concerns about the nature, procedures or requirements for
participation do not hesitate to contact any of the researcher team via the details below.
Any questions?
Please contact the named researcher on the consent form or the lead researcher:
Researcher: Rebecca Thomson
e-mail: BT123@canterbury.ac.uk
Lead Researcher: Rebecca Thomson
e-mail: As above
(switchboard)
; phone number: 07715410015
phone
number:
01227
767700
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse86
Appendix e
CONSENT FORM
Title of Project:
Understanding perceptions of Child Sexual Exploitation from the
perspectives of professionals in the South East of England
Name of Researchers: Rebecca Thomson, Katarina Mozova and Belinda Siesmaa
Contact details:
Address:
Canterbury Christ Church University
North Holmes Road
Canterbury
CT1 1QU
Tel:
01227 767
700
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse87
Email:
Bt123@canterbury.ac.uk
Please initial
box
1.
I confirm that I have read and understand the information
sheet for the above study and have had the opportunity to ask
questions.
2.
I understand that my participation is voluntary and that I am
free to withdraw at any time, without giving any reason.
3.
I understand that any personal information that I provide to
the researchers will be kept strictly confidential
4.
I understand that the interview will be audio recorded and
as above the information gained will be kept confidential as well as
stored securely.
5.
I agree to take part in the above study.
________________________
________________
Name of Participant
Date
____________________
Signature
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse88
_________________________
________________
Name of researcher taking consent Date
____________________
Signature
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse89
Appendix f
Safeguarding Lead 1
BT I say just tell me what you do
Interviewee So my background is is not doing instructor. Okay. I have worked up the
long route to get into work in the schools. I have a couple of GCSE season D and B's. I. Was one
of those kids that should have got A's and B's .. Not even remotely close. But I was one of those
kids you put me in front of something and showed me once and I can try and make me read our
book is never going to happen. Well the long way up for being another instructor through to
working in the college working with 16 plus kids. Had got married had a little boy and I moved
and got made redundant and got into work in needs but which was good fun. I set up the. Kent
KS4 engagement program with the local Maureen Robinson who then. Pushed me into going
forward. I had low self-esteem back then you know because you lose your job a few times you
get the point you get knocks and you do three months of sitting out nine CV's a day. Well I'm
awful but she gave me a chance who speaks a lot more confidence I like the way you. Chat to the
kids you know my had a PowerPoint presentation I take it in there it's been hours to this
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse90
presentation I just thought it like a big spaghetti mess because the PowerPoint didn't work so
blagged it like that and she she felt it offering me a job and as I was slamming the phone down
and she said no no no she's going I want you have got this paper money to start this up and so I
start the key stage for engagement program can. And that was interesting that was hardware first
time we have worked for a county you know you can if you want to see politics go to a case and
to love them from that came what he needs as because the funding dried up so we may have to
move on to other areas where it needs and then that dried up and so you know I live in every year
I've redundancy is great and and then I got a chance to work in being in any way back then it was
education welfare offices I knew nothing about it and I had I knew nothing about it I thought you
know the law didn't like any of that side and they just gambled on me and I loved it and so I
looked after the holiday and sandwiches to start with. And then of course they made them
redundant but they turned and said we want to keep you brilliant they said you're going to cover
the whole of Dover what else was 50 primary schools and say a. Secondly schools. And then.
Favour for the best is that I start to learn a trade I only find one family in the whole time I was
doing it and I got to sign on over to 300 kids back into school. So I said I I done all right. And
then this place hit me up one day I made a joke with the vice principal even Lucy and she said
Oh I'm leaving I went who's gonna do your work now. And they phoned me that night we went
off. And then I work from the bottom up the attendance officer. And. Then all the other schools
kept phoning me because they just wanted me as well. They kept fighting not only would you do
this but this one again today went I don't like them they never tell us what we need to know. And
then personally I fell in Passion of attendance, love it and really geeky. How sad is that.
BT What the actual numbers of it?
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse91
Interviewee The lot. Everything about getting kids in school. Everything from the data
about it. And this place to me to learn data which I hate. Now geek it like what's wrong with me?
And then one day said if you pick that right because it bored you know beaten or that attendance
I could do it three days a week instead of two spare was brilliant. And so was it two days a week
of just sitting there bashing a ball of the wall because I also couldn't walk about that no good
enough as. I want to better not back take because it was too good to keep doing it every year and
so I hit I hit the average national average was scrappy that I could've done good. Not many that
and I did that for the second year and then I got bored and start picking up a radio and there was
like you pick up radio you never to go back and. I didn't I just miss Williams and the old head
was like I. to do this. Can you take over that. Can you work Gary to do this. Can you do this.
I've gone from here to now that director of student welfare, over the last I think is six years now
so I'm not a teacher. I have no real qualifications. I know a lot about nothing. And yeah I seem to
sit on every panel in the county. I have no idea how I even got on these panels If people were just
to make assumptions about me and just seem to turn up like a bad smell sometimes well I love it.
Yeah. No I love my job. It's it's hard work. It's. It's exhausting it's it's mentally draining. It's very
through. And. I. Love it. I can't beat myself up rugby anymore. So I did.
BT So the question I asked at the beginning about do you have supervision?
Interviewee We have supervision and you'd be a very odd person to not be able to do it.
Dark humour is a wonderful thing. It's confines and people don't get it and don't understand it.
However you need it. You have to have it. Otherwise you're going to say you've got to be able to
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse92
close that door. I learned it the hard way. If you don't close that door things go wrong and. You
can't. How you can have supervision in this job because the supervision is usually to someone
that doesn't actually really get what you do because they come from a teaching background.
However much they want and try to they done only the best they can get it. They are the ones
that want to learn the other side and are willing to listen not necessary the people that words up
the food chain and then think just because I'm a teacher I can do this. I've got working for me
now. For five people plus had years and then the teachers underneath them of course. And
actually the heads you've got to be a teacher to the point that I believe is going to teach because.
They need to be able to bring to the table the attainments are the unsung classroom. But they also
got to have the ability to. Walk what possible means and safeguarding and everything else. My
past with him. I'd never been teachers and I wouldn't want to be teachers. I don't want to be
army. No really interesting name for the police. Anyone tells you that. Some come from the
army and without a military background it's bullcrap absolute bullshit. What you want is people
that are. Realistic. You need to have a breakdown between humour and understanding humility.
You need to have that break down again. I'm not a teacher. Because if you tell kids you're a
teacher they the wall goes up. In this day and age a wall goes up. So I've got a ex. Prisoner. She's
lovely. She came across in the interview as a superb young individual that she didn't like that
service didn't. Didn't didn't enjoy the brutality of it it didn't work for her. I've got someone that
used to work for skill force as well as cross schools for years. And then I've got another lady that
was here and was trodden down and down and down and when I said no to the job and to them
the one that used to work for skill force and other schools. And. The lady that had been chosen
down here I said this is yours. This is me. I'm not gonna sit here and be a manager this city isn't
going to do this you can do that and you can do everything I ask you to do and believe in it as I
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse93
you're going to do it because you wanted it and they don't get it right. But no no I Fischer's
imagination. I'm not always politically ideal but they do a damn good job and they work really
well. Picking those kids up and understanding those kids. I'm not one that's come from prison
background the one that's come from the Beacon schools and they just have the ability to say.
Come on. Pick yourself up dust yourself down. We've come from where most of us have come
from where those kids are now or or grand display or just having this conversation with with
young lady. We've just dealt with yeah. Because she was all about trust us. But I have to trust me
because here you are your teeth are what. I'm glad I had the work. Had to be the one that made
the cups and the shit shovel at the bottom of the table. I know it works it works because they
want it to work worse because the kids find the niche the kids want that. And I just have to try
and work out this whole managerial diplomatic thing which is hilarious. I hate it. I say it means
we're like Sean and Carol. He's down to earth. That's why we get stuff done. You know we're
we're realistic pragmatic pragmatic people. We aren't really interested in the politics our
favourable father. There's red tape. Well we'll just find a way for it. You're not going to be held
up boy. We've taken school was placed on leaps and bounds. We've gone from a school that was.
The crop is going down to one point on the right just cool. When it was in the press for riots and
everything else. And now we want to you know we're up there with the best and you know we go
around the streets. Nobody would have to demonstrate before we got every walk of life. We get
kids from. We get grandmas scream right down to the most copious deprivation you've ever
seen. And we game through it and we have to work out a way that it works for every single kid
you know safeguard inside of it. We've put ourselves off and we have to. Find a way for it. And
we work as a team and we signed off for one lovable loser rag with each other every now and
again but we wake up in the next morning and that's our supervision done right. Okay. All right
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse94
so my colleagues and I ask. Why it's not but I always laugh the supervision. You know what am I
doing. Why am I talking to you if you don't get in the first place. That's almost enough. The point
is the always been able to talk just jamming to talk about it. It is. You need to fly it because like
you just come from a very stressful situation where things racing for your mind and you if you
just shut that down that's fine state for for the time. Okay. Got fly right. And that's why we had
the. That's what freedom works you know. That's why. For me to get through these days is it is a
case of I can have that signing off if I needed one team noise and Newtons and wrong but we can
close the door and talk for it together. Learned to play golf, Because I'm not allowed to play
rugby. What that was that was where he stood. You know he found ways to do things in nature
of course. Some days are easier than others but if it was the same his day I think it was box office
bound that he bought. He works it sets him apart. He's such a funny word because it was never
passed on welfare and wasn't up until the last. 10 years. And so even at university level. Nobody
really gets it. Not really. Because it's not a class his profession is not a professional job. Whereas
now it's coming around because mental health is more. Mental health is more instead a thing.
Well-being is understood. I think it's realized actually. Just because you teach it doesn't mean
you're great outside of classroom. I think all those sides do working together. I think people like
myself strive to push other schools. And. Other professions to understand. That just because
you've got a toddler doesn't mean you know we thought we might need to come and see the
bigger picture and through the profession of my thing I can go where I am. If I didn't have them
and have the ability to get them to where they need to be. So yeah we don't have standardized
supervision. No no. But we do have the ability to flow. We do have stability. You know you can
have that break that five minutes is fun to get upset and free towards other pranks slam the door
and people go that leave Andy alone.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse95
BT Fair enough I suppose it works when you reckon a small team as well.
Interviewee It does. And we walk this place corridors we know the bar in front of this
place and that's important. And you use that ability to walk it off you learn the ability to walk all
that time space reload chocolate bar that's life stress relief.
BT And so the first thing I want to ask is here do you think in your geographical area is
responsible for tackling safety in your opinion.
Interviewee There's a number of us, actually. It's funny you mentioned it. So we've just
become the chair. Unbeknownst to me of the Prevent program function. So there's a number of
us that are tackling CSE. It isn't down to any one agency or provision to necessary tackles head
on. It has a formulation in combination in obviously for. The channel process etc. etc. and
working with the police but actually tackling head on is all our roles. It's this everyone from the
strategic you know seeing a lot of. Yes CSU are free to school based health social services. It's
everyone community wardens police the fire brigade is anyone sat around that table and it's
anyone that has day to day dealings with young people. Middle aged people. Anyone that comes
into contact. It's got that responsibility but not only that for tackling it it's all a lot of
responsibility and that's why we've set up the programs where we do.
BT When you say Oh you mean because you keep your hands off me.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse96
Apologies for that so I say ask because I'm so used to working in such a wide wide area
now so we're not just school right. I'm going to school based as in so yes this is my job. This is
where I'm employed but I suppose since you sit with CSU community support unit I sit with
other police services I sit with coming towards police health mental health early help. And we sit
around a table quite regular and actually if we're not sure we we work together on it and that
feature in that network that we've built has been the hard work of people to pull that network
together. Over the last four or five years. It's what when I refer to it it is that the likes of
[ANONYMISED]. From the top missing team Thomas exploitation team and the police itself
through to ground level themselves saying you know what we can all have a hand in this let's
develop this this is no one single agency's responsibility might be to collate the data and do the
final the final bit actually to get to that point. Then actually that needs all of us. And if we're not
sat around that table building that picture building up the road map of everything that's going on
we have no idea. It's a network that we're still building on as a network. You have one or two I've
wanted to say yeah we know about it and that is the realistic law of our system that's a good
question and you know about how much of it. So yeah there is a big US when it comes to it.
Yeah.
BT So when you're talking about. Things about your other agencies in the workplace
how do you think I understand what CSE means.
Interviewee I think it depends who you're working with inside that team. If you're
talking to the street strategic level. I think we know very well. Putting into practice. Is always
hard because I think the ones who put into practice say it slightly differently and I argue that
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse97
from when I was even a EWO you know. We all have the best intentions. So at the top we've got
a really good understanding we believe what that is. And then you go and give out the everything
good but that's never gonna work. So you know the door knockers the people around the streets
the police the kids in the school that we're talking to and actually we developed that slightly
different. So that information trickles back up in a different way. So do we have amazing
understand of it. They will never really have an in-depth knowledge. I think we'll have good
scope. I think we'll have. A. Broader. We'll have like a jack of all trades kind of version of it
where we think we know a lot about nothing sometimes but I think we're getting there. I think
we're starting to really crack the night and I think it's it is the hardware that's gone into over the
last I mean my work's been very minimal in it. In all honesty I know the others work into it.
Nothing yet. I think we're getting to grips and understanding what CSC actually stands for but do
we actually know the heart and depth of it. They never change him.
BT Yeah is interesting speaks of agencies like his daddy play CPA. Social work is every
single person has a different definition of everything can fit in here and just the way they talk
about it. It's almost like there is a separation and there is a separation between the legal aspects of
the legal definition and the actual physical pragmatic..
Interviewee Legal definition is always that to be broken because they try to put it into
words. Actually how do you manifest those words you can manifest into a paragraph or a
document as long as you can look up all 96 angles of it. But if you miss out the last four you
don't going to get to hundred. It's as simple as it gets to a legal definition. Yes and that's why
that's why people get away with it and how they break those rules and you get those lawyers to
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse98
get them off because you can't you can't put into that kind of definition and never going to work.
However if we can have an understanding and draw it back to that legal definition by people on
the ground you know pushing the boundaries on it and people upstairs listening. We'll get there. I
know there's some agency said that said we've cracked that. We know everything about it. No it's
never happens now because we are not bullying her era or drugs issue or anything ever. Never.
New. It's the economy stupid and you're gonna hurt somebody. Somebody will get care. And
then how are you.
BT So far though we've got to be realistic about things.
Interviewee I think one of the things we've said about this places is very open what we
say when we had to go to FDA. So we put it out there before the press came back and when
they've hidden more we have we made sure we had it on Facebook and you know the praise the
community turned round and the praise that we've had is just honour for the work we do. So I
actually. Why lie?
BT What are your personal views still in your personal views on the nature and extent of
CSE in all the surrounding area. So I'm looking at Dover, Kent and Medway
Interviewee I think we're only getting to grips with the problem a little bit late in the day.
I think. Certain agencies went out there all guns blazing hoping to fix it straight away. When it
hit pressure headlines and also there is a major issue everywhere in the country and the world has
been for a little while. You know when we talk about innocent up north what an awful rotten
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse99
thing he. And you look at the debt for knowledge of what one agency and we're only talking you
know that the health service was just trying to. The pages of work yet they got slandered and
slated for. And I think also it's a big deal. I was it is fairly easy to blow things out proportion. Do
I think it's juicy idea. I think we're one of the major ports in the country in the world. One of the
busiest shipping lines. It's easy to get anyone into this country. I mean anyone is a fool to think
otherwise. I think we're only scratching this iceberg tip of it easy. I think once we actually start
looking out and you bring it down even to the southwest of the U.K. when you start looking into
northern England I think it's going to get deeper and deeper and more. More more brutal. I think
it's possibly. I think it's one of the one of the biggest things as I made news headlines but I think
it's something that we're not gonna ever really fully understand. For five years six years maybe
10 years before we actually game what it is. I think we underestimate. How these groups work. I
think we don't fully understand the. People's opinions on it and how it works. And I think it's
gonna be a very scary time. I think we're going to that rather there was nothing in the grand
scheme of things I think this biggest stories to come and I think that won't be too far from home.
That's my worry. While we're both doing what they.
BT Do think there's been anything that's changed in the last 5 years.. has anything drastic
change social or demographic in this area that you think has had a significant impact on the CSE.
The prevalance of?
Interviewee All right. When that report came out I remember hanging my head in shame
and just wanted to crawl up in a ball. Because. CSE became political. Rather than, the practical
understanding and trying to deal with it became a political hot potato. Which then of course
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse100
means fundies redrawn and things are hidden and funding is pushed around. Do I think anything
has changed. I think. Normal. I'm go back to my earlier comment about people that are actually
realistic and pragmatic go round the table was I. We need to do some because if nobody's going
to listen to us. Or know we're going to deal with it. We have to start the ball because if we start
the ball rolling and they did Some people stuck in the round table. Decent people. When we got a
problem we're gonna have to look at it. We're gonna have to find another way approach him for
the roles that we have already and. Inclusive the police and police that the police actually there
was. I've worked with some amazing people that I've gone on to other areas now are unrealistic
people. I. Would say you know what we've got. We've got this issue here. What do we do. And
we start off registering. I remember getting my first ever Wolf just prior to fighting just before
the report. Where we started doorknocking as it was. We went on what we called it was like a
truancy sweep. But it wasn't called truancy circle doing it with the fire brigade and a bunch of
others. Working with council and then walking to his house and just opening doors got all those
kids all over the place running around and it is just heartbreaking. Families have been shipped in
and then you just knew the kids were taken. And. It never made headlines because the right
people were there thought they were there and that. Then we start to get serious about it and start
talking about it. And own and became. Was a political hot potato so it became the normality to
talk about between all groups to stop bluffing start worrying about it and then of course with the
rather just. And then another one came out and there was something it was like what we've got to
change we've got to get this. And we've seen it go away. Actually we've started. Yeah. You
know I would guess a lot of flak for a lot of things. And especially because actually there's a
number. Or number of people I see trying to make better make it. I don't be luckily enough to be
part of that. No. I wouldn't have any other way. I think there's a lot of good people in the
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse101
sandwich. I up to Medway I mean that's a scary place in itself but. It's. Again. Kent, specialist
services shall we call ourselves. Because. It makes life easier. Have stuck ever in a time have
started making changes. When that report came and I was just ridiculous. That's all it was. It was.
People make a report that actually had no idea. Because we don't ask questions. Nobody can ask
the school in questions. So.
BT When I was reading it thinks I'm using my history obviously. It's kind of my basis is
like the yardstick that I'm going. This is what they're saying. This is what we find that kind of
thing. And I read it I was thinking this is it sounds like people sat in a boardroom but never been
to Kent in their entire lives. If they have been they've been take lovely plush place in Maidstone.
You know that's what it sounded like and then they were talking about these children. To set
things or waiting to working. I lived and kept my entire life.
Interviewee Yeah. I haven't got a lot of time for upstairs when it comes.They make...
They make stuff up to fit and it depends if it's re-election year. If the funding is about to be
pulled and unfortunately we live in an age now where that is. Unreal. We've got a lot in the
confines of your heart ultimately governs all of us. Do we have to work in the confines of it. But
we can stretch those confines there's some things worth pushing and pushing. I don't think you're
ever going to get slapped down for. Working. Over or above those confines. As long as you're
willing to back yourself when you've got evidence to do that. And I think we've had that
evidence a number of times. So yeah you just have to look at some of the gangs and bits and
pieces and one in four guns. It's. Crazy.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse102
BT So that's. Yeah. No no no you're fine. You're probably the one. I'm glad the turned up
in the afternoon. Well it was because everything that you're saying is it's for me everything else
I'm doing and I'm picking things apart and I can link you with police officers those very similar
things but in different contexts in the back of this like you asked me strong something. I hope so.
Has there been has there been an increase in a number of potential victims that you've seen. And
again we used the last five years and I would like you to be either within your school or
externally. And if so why.
Interviewee Have we seen an increase?I think that's a really interesting question to ask
for more than that. It sounds very easy a simple question tosses net. To flip that around it is that
because we're start to find what it is and actually when we were dating what we now perceive the
CSE. Five years ago we were just going Oh it's a victimless crime. So let's go let's go. Yes yes
definitely. This case may be much better defining what it is on a realistic level that there's no.
Second realistic level. On a realistic level. It hasn't increased. It's it's it's staying the same on an
awful lot of ways because actually it's such a massive thing. Now we're also seeing is happening
in the school system. What we have titbits inside the school and then we feed that back and then
the other agencies picking up more linking it. So actually it's not as if we were increasing is what
we're understanding is the networking. Side of it. And it's getting worse never get to the brink
because every time you cut one head of the snake of rows. With a very much like the drugs trade.
People commodities and commodities is a drug. You know people want it and people will pay
for it and that's the sad an absolutely true free people human beings can be, awful. Tell me what
they are. And it is only for the good will hunting that people like ourselves that. No. Must Stop
it. But I think the numbers have increased. I think the numbers. Though increase year on year.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse103
But then if you average out against a population that stay exactly the same. I think what is
happening is that we are. Finding more groups. I think we're finding more ways in and. It hits the
press and so many guys in the press is sensationalized and therefore you're going to hear this on
the other. I think if I'm really honest with you we haven't got close to the real numbers a lot
going on. But I don't think you ever get close. This is what I think we'll do is we'll find avenues
and we'll help out. We'll find 50 50 kids or Hervey Bay this weekend or next year and the year
after that will be 50 again but that she should probably be more like double that. And so. I don't
think we're anywhere near the true figures. I'm not is the bottom line of it. So yeah I suppose it
has increased politically they say no it hasn't is decreasing but actually it does because we are
finding different avenues and calling it different things when we put under the heading ACNC it
going up. But I think when they're anywhere near what we. Are too scared to admit.
BT I think that's that's the same for a lot of crimes causing unmentionable crimes. Yeah
the no palatable ones..
Interviewee Don't get me wrong I'm not pointing fingers anyone at one point and
certainly not the police you know they're governed by certain bodies you know there's no social
services it's not those those levels. It's it's a case of. I. Just. Found one. ANONYMOUS found
one. And so what they do is they put it down to different units and therefore the names on both
of course in different ways. But we are starting to gather intelligence that's why we sell in those
groups that we now see on you know.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse104
BT It's interesting. The national average has increased but I'm unsure whether that's
because we are now more aware because more awareness of it so there's more training is more
and everyone kind of knows what see if he is in a professional context it's maybe there's more
reporting because we saw that with certain types of sites he started with actual race for example
we are seeing is the how Larry hit the bottom level right. That was made as it made your name.
What's your name. Some people everybody wanted to be part of. Yeah.
Interviewee What we have to be careful of this we don't sensationalize it. Because.
As soon as you just said as soon as it's socialized it says the paper gets hold of it you
have to wait for the sun to go through all the times. And then also those headline figures and
people talk about it now everybody is doing it wrong isn't it it is what we have to be careful of. I
think what we do quite well is that we don't bunch it's imagination marginalizing we might
change the name of it we change the name or the way it's reported between ourselves for good
reason because if you keep even a slightly different context as it goes round and they fit that pop
this pop pop up well you can still do stuff with that family with that child. Whereas if you all go
go. I'm a victim of CSE.
BT Can you give me examples of that in terms of like different language that you might
use the different ways that you would describe things.
Interviewee See if the ink was on that child exploitation. Sexual exploitation. But then
what about other kids that we pick up. Are. Or. Drugs that way. Child exploitation. Or what
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse105
about the child that. But. That's another way. It's not the weapon to go out to do something for
them through the act of some form of traffic ten kids trafficked in from young people trafficked
in from around the world. Is very highly so difficult to confront because. You told me about a
case and I'll see you at ICAC or I say something to you. We're taught that we're taught by one
context in your head you. While CSC and modern neighbours are going to say that because once
you label CSC can only go one way. How can you then go from that CSC bucket and throw that
one over there when actually what you say is isn't. Okay so you call CSC your child sexual
exploitation. I'm the only people who can have him for me. Then it's mental health or or traffic.
Whereas if we go know you're. Selling drugs for sexual or haven't and I Anyway your pain and
or that the person that you know we'll talk and ride and train you know all the horrible
complexes that they do for young ladies about part of gangs that they you know they rape and
use then use the. Anus for shoving drugs out there because the boys are right. Now you try for
your son we're talking about county lines you know. But that is not CSA. There we go. Same
thing but it is character lines. You probably milk your morning service because you know knew
that from this. So yeah it's got lots of connotations we yes he's here and it's a big umbrella.
Interviewee So yes different parts for different things and for say if you just labelled it
CSE you only get one sort of help whereas if we call it various variations under the heading The
CSC brand had a name. Yeah. And that's what I think. I think that's the beauty of it because we
just now devising those parts. We understand those policy we're looking at those parts in
different ways. You know we talked about. We talked about the gangs you know and how
they've treated young ladies and males and females in the same context. We then got to look at
you know how close the family there are renting out their son or daughter. Because they can't
pay the rent. Well hang on a second. What is that CSA. Yeah it is. But we're talking contracts
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse106
because actually that's how the deprivation is going for their family. Therefore we actually don't
need all those toolkits. What we need is these ones over here. And I think that's the beauty of
what that what is being developed nationally. And then inside each context of each county or
each cluster group then finding another way to work.
BT Is that something that is national or is that what you guys kind of do to know.
Interviewee You know I think you've got well you've got the CSU national policy you've
got national policy other. I can only talk about the Dover, Deal and Sandwich area and then I'm
having conversations with Sony and midway through three links. Each area grows. But that
annoyed this balance. You go to conference you start hearing these things go into different
committees in here and different things. So I think it is growing I think. But every area does its
own special way because what fits for those is not going to fit for. Because have different
demographics. The the landscape is different. Joking aside landscape makes it weird that
different elevation and anything can happen. But yeah I think this gets them there I think. I think
you've got your government national governance but then breaking down into Kent where we
don't really have a CSI problem is is that you get to the point where you start building your
Dover/Deal cluster. You start building those links up and then all of a sudden you know I'd
popped up over in Shepway and I would going on. I love your idea. You know it works that's
what you do best as best practices here haven not modifying it and let's use it them rebuild it.
That's what we do best. You.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse107
BT Say we talked about county lines. What you thought surrounding the current nature of
criminality in Dover and how it relates to CSA. He's even mentioned the gang stuff and I name
the gangs around here with the gang.
Interviewee One in four in Kent, we shouted aboout that gang for years.Weren't listened
to. I went to conferences with social workers police even one of their employees I might say it is
because I don't think about things. We we collated two years of evidence what they regard. No
they're not that drug. They're pushing drugs they're going on. They've been paid that they will not
order some two years later and I will start again. Oh really. You know what we can do about
major crisis. Everyone's talking but everyone wants to know about CT14 CT17 gang CT 16 .
They reference I was there were reference that was once they called themselves once you start.
Those those individuals. Three of them were super saveable. The system that freed them down.
One of them in particular was never saveable. But then. No surprise really with the historic.
That's the one that hurt me. I think that's one that was most difficult for me because I was the
festivals and listens fast. That's what gave my voice. The non fear of. Up for these big rigs and
gun shop you're going to listen to me. You're going to. I'm I'm. And you know every time you
tell me it isn't a guy on the tell you it's I'd argue that in front of you all these other people will
solve it. And that's what happened. Three were saveable. One of those is now on track. One of
those guns the one that wasn't to the one is now with special schools. Should've been picked up
from school. Never was one you know it's just taken just irritates me that one. He's never going
to have anything but a life of criminality. So I hope we can save his brother the older brother and
his younger brother. It's a difficult one. Difficult because we've all said that. There was three of
us in particular saying this is. We want to know. Now we want to admit we haven't done it. You
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse108
know that I want to talk about the little boys that you haven't on the other. So your questions
what do I know about county lines?County lines has been around for years.. if anyone thinks
County lines is a new thing its a dream world. Why has it been around for years, because we've
had motorways for years. It's just hilarious. It just means you can do it in an hour instead of
down off. You're never going to stop it. Drugs are here to stay, drugs have been around since
when? We can battle it you can battle it all you want. They will find new and unbelievably crude
and unconventional ways that they will traffic those drugs. Kids are easy to do it to because you
got a criminal record. Because if the kid gets caught they're going to push him out of the door
with just a warning. That's the problem, all the time we talk about a guy we don't want to give a
warning. We don't want to criminalize you as a child because we wouldn't have a job in life. Gets
to 18, has no job. You might as well pulled him back up then done something with him and we'd
be alrightKnow to put it like I mean I had nothing to do with it. in fairness. So I can't really
comment too much on. I know of it. I couldn't be enough to say you I know all about that.
Interviewee Most of the kids that end up in these groups and gangs etc.. I guess it's funny
when I it Hollyoaks it. Sort of takes years out of the equation moment take turns out of the
equation according to what it is. I work like this when it is mine, Shaun. I call it the Hollyoaks
syndrome. The reason I call it Hollyoaks symptoms because if it happens on TV so it is a big
one. What was it 15 15 16. Well I'll probably be than I was probably about 25 20 years ago.
Teenage pregnancy. All of a sudden, we're seeing Hollyoaks the biggest. What was it the biggest
surge of all time when it first came out to be aimed at teenagers who want to have sex. It's OK
because you know what they have sex on TV so if they're having sex on TV work before I said
it's OK I gave me a lot. Did sex happen before that? of course happened before that. But because
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse109
it was all a sudden on TV it was a popularity sensationalize it. And then so we moved from that
and then also their snorting coke... Oh my God. And they smoke coke before watershed? This is
not only happens on TV and it's on its broadcast all sent to the age group. It's going to be alright
for them to do it. And all the time that happens you know oh yeah let's.. I played rugby for the
West Coast down in the West Country and my college at the time and we used to to play the
prison. Could you imagine doing that now. I'd send that guy. But we sat with all their mates after
us and having a drink with them and a cup of tea. Not what I call a cup of tea with a cup of
coffee and I'm thinking this is nuts. These guys have been dumb for a. I'm playing them rugby. It
must be right. You know I can't tell them that I have a little bit of a fit. It's all right because you
know they can play rugby with summer school we can go in. All right. It normalised. We've also
got round the other five of you take some of these kids that are drawn into it. We'll think of it.
When I was younger you know we talked about we'd have things to do. It was cheaper to live it
was cheap because of cinema. Go go bowling go and do anything. It was cheaper to do it. Now
it's 15 quid just to go. Well I mean it's a little bit cheaper westwards to go to the cinema.Hey it's
to get in one quick 10 quid. Go and play out on the bikes.. They can't come by and all of sudden
it's like wow it's just they just start talking to him over here. It's been a while. And then next to
nothing. That's how quick it happens you know. Absolutely. Youth Clubs Cub Scouts. It's not a
case of being fashionable. It's a case of putting a kid in a room or can the kids go and do
something. love to see programs run where you know the old bracket on one bracket that's never
going to work. Could you imagine to not lose your concern but imagine if you had a program
where kids went out for. I'm not talking about going back to the days where you might turn the
old on. We take some of the mandatory national service by the way but what I'm saying is why
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse110
we not taking these kids down send them a sort of Dover why are we not using sport which
brings nations together you know.
Interviewee I think that until we realise you know you just got to go back to 2012 and
you look what that did to the whole of the UK and then and then the speciality is that came out of
it. How it drew a nation together you know you go back a little bit further you look at the Rugby
World Cup where we want to meet people who still talk about 1966 when I'll remind you what it
was in black and white and off the nation can't remember it but at least we've won so many since
rugby players will read about it but it draws people together. And I think we are a nation of
sportsmen. We are absolutely of whether you want to play it or just watch it or even just listen to
look at Wimbledon every year. That was a whole nation together because we wanted to see our
boys and girls get to it. Yeah but we don't do something like that together. We don't have
anything that utilises children together. You know. here's too much risk is we wrap him up in
cotton wool. They want to express why do you think history drugs because the copyright have
been called moments on. It's easy money. And of course you can offer the one who two those the
centre I'm going to exploit them is outrageous. Well I think when it comes to these unread with
in your face the police it's not like you make it very very complicated.
Hindsight in hindsight is what it is.
So yeah I think we run kids off too much and that's part of the reason they want escapism.
They want to try different ways of doing it and unfortunately not able to give them the. Go of.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse111
For example. Okay.
And afterwards by gang activity I won't ask that one again. I don't think it's police
structure. And. How does your school work. Every agency CSA you've mentioned some are you
on anything else as a school because you're an individual not as a school or do you guys sit on
anything else. Or are you involved in exams.
Is it just you. Is it you. That's like the spokesperson. Yeah. Yeah. I.
It's a different it's really different. We have also forgotten payments famous fathers. And.
We came over from that point of view for Child Protection teens and CPS as such. What we do is
then draw that back in however.
With the road I've developed over the last few years it's predominantly me now going
into the role roll on in that makes life a little bit more difficult for the IMF and that element it
which is fine but then that's why I have to give the opportunity to the staff. So you know we look
at the operating well we look at geos we look at domestic violence we look at CSA we look at
CSU we have executive six operations working we see SCC you. See yeah. It has not just been
me. But I believe I was the catalyst to start it and then work me Gemma. I'm working with Len
and Jane and all that lot. We developed it now that's not me saying. I've gone to every single
meeting. That's me. Get hold like Sean. Stewart and John Tay and all those different elements
and go in Canada and then feeding that not just to hear but down for the past all means I turned
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse112
on the yard means and Eric Bell and Joe hook and people are that fabulous people you know and
I know. So no I guess I've sat on most of them but.
Not for the woman to now moving on and other people get involved. I mean I love Jim to
be on it and people are happy that they haven't got the time. I don't have the time anymore so I'm
passing the buck but again it's good to hear about it.
Push it out. They all get pushed out.
So yeah hey. In terms of the training that you guys get see you day so try it on. I guess
that's what you think is how good the training is.
If it can say what it does it does your training. Yeah it's as good as you use it. If you don't
use it you'll never remember it. If you don't use it. You well new stuff. It's as simple as it gets.
DSL is a piece of this one pocket common. Any idiot could get DSL. Friends I use it and that's
the problem. Any of these things are easy to get.
It depends on the idiot that's you running it as in like myself. You know I'm not perfect.
I'll get it wrong I'm fine. I'm not going to get it right. I'll be a worrying day I was trial and error.
If you know the basics. Pass what you can on about what you don't know on someone else. If
you're willing to make a mistake and I'm not and you're willing to ask the question when you
think you don't quite that were willing to look like you failed or not.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse113
That's why what makes you give me transparency I guess it is I can be honest about it.
If you don't know it. Ask if you if you know it. Share it. It's as simple as it gets. Get DSL.
I've still got turn up. This was a joke. No standardized feature in thinking about.
The problem. You sit there and people talk. You. Safeguarding is about perspective. If
you think it's a threat to the young person do something about it. If Don thinks Fred the young
person. Have the balls to turn and say I don't think Fred because. Then be willing thank you. If
you're going to reread. It's a big responsibility. It is going to be real and stick your neck out on.
Just because our social worker doesn't mean that right. You got to be willing to stand up for what
you believe in and stand up for that young person.
I'll make an observation about that. I come from a teaching background and I think that
when you go through teacher training there's almost this inherent thing that you're scared to do
that. Yeah you know maybe because you're not from a teaching background. That's why you
don't have that fear inherent maybe you know why if all teachers how to do your past or
whatever grade system if they all start to do a pastoral level time for the teacher training would
have some great because it's interesting you say that because Jemma said that she doesn't
remember a time 10 years ago she doesn't remember that being safeguarding in to our past or an
element to it.
And I didn't do that then and I just had to go and you know I've got one more question. In
an ideal world what do you think should happen for organizations to successfully tackle CSA.
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Say ideally got all the money in the world wide web which Jane wouldn't spend it. You know I
would cut.
The blame game will be taken out. Okay. Don't look for scapegoats If some guy's wrong
let's look at it and then let's build a better way and don't look to just chop someone's head off.
You know. The biggest problem with anything is funding. You know we used to run some
quarters back in the day to do a sandwich at Dover anti-social behaviour. Dover. That's the
Dover anti-social. Behaviour. Oh either say it's the action group some of the high rollers some
good car does bother was the ISBN G. And I got stopped because.
Too many people were sat around the table. And you sit and go. What. Is the best thing
since sliced bread. You spoke about from the from the infant's free to the adults you spoke for
what it was half a day half a day every every month. But at that you spoke by everybody.
Didn't like it because too many things was breaking out and too many people were not to
know about their son. When I asked you if you started that you'd know about it then. It's taken
that political element out of it like everything else in this country instead of Stavans grow up.
Let's go through it. Someone's going to be in front of a judge someone's God. The only people
that need to be pushed off their perches and pays as far as I'm concerned they do so and to be the
law abiding citizens they're going to be the creme de la creme the rest of us common folk are
designed to be wrong all designed to get stuff wrong so we better it. I think if I do one in the
world I would.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse115
Apply it into just community elements that we need so desperately about the whole sports
side of it.
Everybody's got a sport. It doesn't always could be tiddlywinks should be what we call
vantage. But I won't enjoy something that is the sports I'm out there for everybody. We just don't
use it. You know let's just build a swimming pool behind the school.
Yeah. How much is it a month ago that. We could have done that exactly. Yeah. We can't
get enough funding to build the Astroturf. Which then we could give it to the whole community
because it's too much money. When will we learn that.
Thank you America who hasn't got the answer to this in any way shape or form. However
you go to any one of the matches from. The standard high school games to the Ivy Leagues and
top levels are round because it's a community sport. It's a community thing and it doesn't matter
again if it's.
I would argue the point with that long period of face is that yeah it's about the
scholarships they out.
Oh yeah. No no I'm sorry. No I'm not talking no not to have the sports people play. Sorry.
I'm talking about. Just look what is done with the community. Me haven't they come colours.
They have. Everyone gets together and does it and it's like bake sale like everybody did.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse116
We will never learn until until we're realistic and what the actual issues are not being too
scared to say anything as again. It takes people like names I've mentioned today that will push
the boundaries that will be forgotten in 10 15 years time and somebody else will be there and
instead. It is a bath always uphill battle always one that is never gonna be won by your side. It
will have lots of casualties as long as way which sucks and we just hope we can lessen that
casualty form of earlier. And that's the worst bit. It's the kids that have to look after us.
So yeah good luck. Your turn. I got three rounds I got I got five.
Chief Inspector
Interviewee This role, probably involved in Shepway and Ashford for about 18 months
to two years.
Interviewee Okay so. So I joined as a police constable 18 years ago, I've mainly being a
quick detective, so i've worked most of my time in the CID. Worked in various different roles.
Public Protection. CID. Proactive crime, preventative crime. As an inspector i've worked as the
duty manager, I've also worked as a commuity safety inspector. I currently chair the Community
Safety Partnership for Ashford and my main role at the moment, as well as the chief inspector
duties is, I oversee quality assurance, that crime and case police division. And I think
performance and reports to the superintendent. That's probably about half of it.
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BT Thank you. And can you tell us about your involvement encountering CSE as child
sexual exploitation.
Interviewee So aswell as all the other things ive just said I do. Obviously I cover a Chief
Inspector like I am today for Canterbury and Dover district. So first of all if I'm doing that,
whilst the chief inspector, things might get escalated to me, I have an overview. If there's an
incident of significant risk of harm then I'll be made aware of it. I'd then have to command an
incident if that is the case. Make a decision, making around that as well. I also work as a senior
detective so sometimes I work the weekends or during the week covering that for the county. So
again if it's a serious matter where children are at harm or risk then again I'd command that
incident, overseeing investigation. Day to day, within my inspector role, obviously performance
wise there is an element of vulnerability, vulnerable victims, vulnerable children, it's making
sure we've got the right group around there and anything that isn't as it should be then I would
flag that and we ensure that that is investigated properly. And if something is not done. Then I
would then go in, inspect that, report on it and identify the issues for them.
BT Can you clarify for me, when you said you'd flag it. Who would you flag it to? What
is the process and protocall you would follow?
Interviewee Okay so we have some specialist teams within Kent, so we have our CEOP
team up at headquarters but we also have, you know it must be followed as a chief Inspector or
DCI i'll be flagging it to the superintendent because it would be an issue that might affect our
reputation. But essentially it would be there making sure the other agencies are involved wether
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse118
it be social services or children services are aware. Essentially I mean flagging mainly, it's
getting a grip of making sure actually someone's dealing with it and the people who should know
about it, know about it. So that those people are protected and safeguarded.
BT So, building upon that, what agencies do you believe are responsible for CSE.
Interviewee Well I think we're all responsible, it is that we are all responsible. Within the
community safety partnertship work I do.
BT In your Geographical area, so who would you, if you were talking about flagging it
up, who would you think would be responsible?
Interviewee Okay so it is the same for Ashford and Shepway. But basically if I was in
CID and we had an incident reported to us, we'd be making social services aware, we'd be
making the community safety team aware, obviously appropriately within the data sharing but
that may mean, local commission services, the partner agencies as we call them, it really depends
on the incident and the nature of it so that the child and there might be a child STRAT. We want
to look at MERIK around that and the committee MERIK if necessary. But the links are..from
CID point of view we would deal with those who are central authority that we should then what
we will accomplish to make sure he is aware should be aware. But then also if appropriate for
safety you need to engage the community safety partners. So that might be safeguarding
children's services which is what we have seen for the NHS or commission CCJ. And then if that
relates to an apples available I don't mean to go to the adult services. Local Authority. To fix up
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse119
those mental health issues you might be going for two maybe three mental health services and
the. Internet. There's a lot of them in it. I think depending on the CSP dependents or services
commission then you will got things like domestic mutual aid and you got a rise in some say
level here but you modification. Services as well. Thank you. And. When this will come out.
The.
BT Different agencies how do you think the nature and extent of CSE in your area
specifically and are understood by police and other agencies.
Interviewee Okay. I think a policing is well understood. I think there is still a journey
we're on to make sure that we are doing the best we could can in every situation. The wait why
do you see that as sometimes good optimally spent like the one of the better analogy is the
guardsmen and I think the gas service you get is only as good as the best person in terms of a
photo and if you get the worst gassed person in the world then the actual the service you get and
hopefully the police and other agency reps and senators are depending on who turns up it
depends on the signposting. But I do think that it is good it is. If you look at the action plan to
create sex partnership there is a lot of stuff around that matter on training and identifying and
understanding. So for example how shall we shall act with Ashford because I very much bring
education into the CSP so much within his community to sector policy that education forms a
key role with that. When I took over the chair of assured CSP we didn't have representation on
that CSP for primary schools and secondary schools. They were on the list but they didn't
actually come to meetings. So he's actually making sure that we re-engage the schools with
issues about drugs and county lines and understanding how should we know educate children
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse120
you know in 2011. It was in making sure they're engaged in exercise a significant area CSA. So
something on a journey. So to answer the question. I'm confident they were aware. I think we are
still getting better at it compared to what we were told two years ago and we probably.
BT Miles down the road. Can you just clarify as I just found in transcribing CSP.
Interviewee A community safety partnership. So within each district that can spring tap
one day Hispanics shift way and then Ashford is basically exploded upon come together it's a it's
transformed by government it's a lawsuit. So some legislation actually calls in action on choose
the next week. So it's where we have the precinct punch at let's get this that's all the key strategic
powers designated so a fire and health education will come together. We have the actual action
plan as we look to approach the districts and publish and then we have to account for the publicly
elected and then the scrutiny panels around that. So no flash would fix it because after watching
it I like it so well I'm still involved in it very much so is that their priority would be reducing debt
from loans and servicing. And safeguarding children. That's why you the A one stop shops and a
commission from those commission services. Adult Mental Health Services me as an action plan
around and as a district we work together to make sure we meet those same changes. Then they
are scrutinized by the Kansas CSP. Kinky sex partnership which is run by the King County
Council when we meet at their quarterly and we have to. Report back to them socially. And.
Politically through them.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse121
BT Thank you. For that. Yeah I appreciate that. And so going back to sort of CSE
specifically. What are your personal views on the nature and extent of RCC in your area. I think
it's still I believe it's still underreported.
Not to the level it was previously and there's more awareness. But I do think that is being
identified and dealt with but it has been.
I just looked it up go back to it using terminology and I think that is mainly because I
think officers are aware. I think agencies are aware that the issue is is the cause the. General
public why in our past you know we've looked at recently around.
Maybe engaging things in low income neighbourhood watch and things like that into you
have been there. I think that's where we are now. I think core agencies are aware of that. But it's.
When you go and speak to Neighbourhood Watch we can say to security at shopping centres. Is
making them aware that actually a case shoplifting and that's really important and we need to
deal with that. But actually perhaps it's also being a son who's going to. The toilet who's hanging
around you know it's their behaviours actually of concern. So I think it sets. That almost a third
element of the article 30 of industries which is a much larger country. Having never bought on
understanding that I think. If we had this conversation three to four years ago I would say that I
know missing. Children. Who are probably victims of this which we weren't aware of or had
been thinking. I think because of the changes within not just companies but of other services I
think that's much more picked up on now. I think 10 years ago most states in family I'm sure
now. Looking back. There was children really being exploited which we just wasn't on our radar
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse122
and actually looking now at the current. Expectations around what we do. If you then took that
time then probably seen standing because we didn't actually do that expanding our awareness.
It's a bit of my experience tells me you've been involved in this inquiry. Do you see any
trends or demographically in terms of CSA. Has. Been. Noticed. What you mean as in same sort
of social trends around seasons he mentioned that we're sees more. There's more awareness now
and is there anything that can be seen maybe as you've been going through it that we in the
public within the agency that you've kind of gone up slightly better at some things are changing.
OK but I think much more agencies and companies have a.
Value or strategy around it which helps. That means that people are aware of it. I think. I
think because. In education it's been much more. There's much more awareness around that. And
it's. Mostly. That relates back to parents. And. People around families that probably be more
aware of that socially. There's much more contact with children in that environment than we
would have. So. Definitely. Is our conversations being had in this thing's been highlighted we've
never been here. Before. I think what it does also show by knowing the problem is you know
where you are the reason we score so you know. You know. I've. Got children myself. They go
to a middle class probably school in they village. See the risk of CSA to them and a lot of friends
the kids I. Say. She is very minimal because it's a. TALKER. But you translate to family. For
example if there was a demonstration. Of children in care. High levels of sexual offenders to
house their high levels of funding then that's actually where the exploitation. May take place. I
think we were that morning. So I think it's a good thing we've got all the strategies yet on how to
actually. Get to those children before it happens. You know we still because of things like the
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse123
benefits paid out and because of. The social. Makeup of. Politics perhaps and the way things are
funded. You still have a situation where we're still placing children. Under. All adults and all in a
very similar place. So if you're going to. Crack the problem. Then that's what needs to change.
And we haven't changed that. So I think that's the demographic changes that actually we've got
young children we live in a village in. Can you kids go to certain schools. That would be. Your.
The likelihood of you being children being a little boy very very slim. You change the
demographics. And that's very different but that's often. Governed by. Government policy.
And funding. So kind of think about what you're saying in terms of housing and short
area things like that. And there's been a hiring increase now reporting is what you wrote. Do you
think there actually is a high end potential for victims or do you think it's just more to. Of.
I think it's a blend of different issues. So I think it's a space. That takes are seeing with
standing confidence in one thing.
And I think it's also big to witness the proximity of the victims that are going home and
also us understanding that they are victims and they work for. So we perhaps deal with.
A missing person. To think of as news go where you get involved and they've been at
someone's house had a drink. You couldn't tell if it was drugs or not. With them take them away.
Turn it back home. Actually the questions were really no did to get a drink from. Why were they
given Jay. What was it. Those questions would be asked because it wasn't made on the radar. So
I think that some know we are learning from what we remember other places. I'm just. Saying.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse124
So. So yes I think it's a blend of issues. I don't. I don't think we're having more victims
than we used to. I think that probably having new victims because we haven't resolved the
problem. But I think it's I think it's the validity of issues where this confidence can fall because
of. The. Mechanisms. In place and the winners. And because we are reporting one person.
Which. Also if. In. The context of a Tom that's a big issue for us because we recorded more
accurately. All the numbers are going. To. Make it more challenging to understand what is.
Increasing. And she's just. Coping. So much. You mentioned earlier on about the army is
backing. And. What you saw surrounding the criminality in new areas and how that relates to
CSA. You mentioned also housing houses that they have the people. They tell the actual.
Criminality. What do you make an entrance.
So the criminality of the CSA or the Clinton I'm sorry in the area that you get say the
actual currency within that area and how that relates to CSA.
Okay. So. It depends on the type of CSA and what's happening. So for example with it's
gang crime in county lines. Then when the actual shift with the links to land on the rail and we
know that they would.
Take advantage of children and mention to be mules or making making them vulnerable
so they could exploit them.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse125
So there is a link to that. I think really one of the best examples of this is actually can
scream many guns on movies and TV shows about the awesome Kevin Costner. So for example
this whole not saying this is wrong to this is way it is the whole policy around making sure the.
Universities are able to be open to the less advantaged. People changing backgrounds in a
London conference where whether gang culture we now see in Canterbury that's people into
camps because of that because the video postings here. You know there was a shooting last
week. That he'll. Let. You. Shoot there's more shootings every year in Canterbury in the last year
or two and it has been.
A while. You think that's gang related crime and bringing people back into the area then
ultimately there's going to be movement of drugs they're going to using young people to do that.
That means that people locally are more exploited and we know that the of people who care. And
then if you look at where student housing is in the city. Where where areas are things that need to
be you know I say my job in performance world when you get them upset and you look at the
thing. It's not rocket science I have an absolutely stunning because the government is doing a
good thing and the right thing but they just haven't met the funding mechanism to make sure that
actually we've secured our communities. And that's that's I think that is. So. It is linked. And you
can see that funding as well with only a little house able by London borough is done then you
can see the effects of the under this consequent local headmasters. When. You talk about that.
That's because you know that's so rich and they used the same tactics. And so. We spoke at the
beginning about how your agency works with other agencies.
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Before the next election. I have a few.
So first we speak about awareness a lot and I completely get why. But. I think what I'm
interested in is what is actually your understanding of awareness. Because it's one thing to be
aware of the fact that CSE exists. Yes and it's another thing to actually maybe understand some
of the risk signs and all that sort of stuff. So what is kind of. Being done you spoke about a third
secretary is talking about shop owners. Do you think it's just the miners at the most basic level at
this stage or are there improvements in it. So I think this is where I think this is where if you look
pick apart the safety plans that are in these different districts.
And you look at what's in them this is because there is the big move at the moment. So
whereas I would say. You speak to two police officers and they just staff they would understand
obviously when it's what they're looking for. Is they making sure that those other agencies that
have and what we're doing around them for example is putting on events or training days having
shared.
The Wednesdays even with the tax cuts. So for example over in that you wouldn't have
the new College in there. Rather than just going in and making people where. We actually all the
staff came to work all pretty things and they were very much actually aware that you need to be
looking out for. It. So we've got a cop on hand. For you know actually explained how they
actually might use a job. We gave an example of.
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A lad whose time was going to try and do much better. London was. Rocked. The most
rate rocks because it was all set up on the game and then not too many had to do a sexual act
which was videoed or pull back to pay that back which is obviously because when they then
aware of what's actually happening.
In effect for example the college you actually get off the train station that then aware that
you can play songs. It's them doing that we always have to pay taxes on that when we
commission services. The PCC and the police service and I think that awareness is just
awareness is actually that they know. But I think that is a trend where we are I think those.
Security guards who shops in their neighbourhood watch and that is actually saying to them this
is what they're looking for. And when you go to parish councils you think we can say that. If you
see a house full of young people and you see many buses going into a movie this is what you
should be looking for. That is still that same journey that we're on because I just take that it just
takes a long long time. To you know it's like.
Leaving the barge on the speed trains. It's a lot we'll see in our society. I think people
could be quite. Concerned thing that's happening in their communities and a situation where they
ignorance is bliss. I suppose that sums it up.
Yeah. No absolutely. They're actually following on from. The very last thing you said
about people actually being a bit afraid and perhaps not quite accepting. Some point. How.
Would you counter that when you want to increase this awareness. But then you have lots and
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lots of agencies all over the place who can be quite standoffish and you know this is isn't our
issue. How do you. Come around also. Okay.
So a really good example of this is that last year when I was for a long long time coming
ship I am not sure that Jesus spent a week in printed new school up scorpion with completely
similar but again this is something we had to implement. And actually what it meant would be
that we tried to engage with polymers and they were actually very engaging very. Very low level
awareness but actually what we needed to happen which we did was we didn't bullshit on his
priority which meant an election process behind it. And of course by doing that. You think like
you're gonna be scrutinized. You can be held to account with public documents and then when
they have to turn when they have a multiagency meeting. They're not turning up. When you go to
the next crusade or goes the case you say go to the council chamber and they say why is it that
you don't want to see these people are engaging. That's really powerful. So it's it's making sure
that the things we wanted to align to the movie the action plans and the cameras. And the
absolute robustness to say actually we are going to get this done in an agreement. I think that
early stage is really really important and this is where it goes back to. Was it about
commissioning services. Now that's a key part of that. So when the PCC gets its money. Or links
the police say saying we're going to fund this these people connection and say actually what are
you doing. Do not just surface level the way this is you what were you doing. Yeah. It's really
good. Then. Where am.
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I. Yeah right. You also spoke about sort of CSE in relation to other crime. What I'm kind
of interested in is a part of previous reports has been that the difficulty in actually seeing CSE as
integrated in other criminal activity and actually taken.
It be an integrated. But at the same time accepting that CSE is a very big problem and
they need to treat people as victims etc.. So do you think there has been any sort of a shift in
understanding how we can. Handle people affected by CSE so that we don't criminalize them
right away. Okay.
I don't think Percy there's been that significant shift yet. I think it's a very similar mindset.
When you talk about things like prostitution we're still very much thinking what is the prostitute.
The victim was the offence in my head and my load and the way that we were which is that they
are the victim. But I think even when government policy is not really clear then of course they
need that. Cloudiness. You have to say I think we're very good and the police are going this is
what I'm dealing with. Straightforward simple rather than doing this crime is murder we take you
to court and a murder I it's usually stopped in multiples. Then I think it becomes more complex.
And I think that's what we most often don't especially does involve new people with different
skill sets of doors. I don't think we can that shift the training. I think it's happening but I don't
think it's happening at a pace. Most people still find in many years that.
It is either CSE or ism or we are trying to go for it. You know you don't see many crimes
go wrong we're going to deal with that and that onus associate dean to. We know it's a cause and
effect but I don't think that is always dealt with as a. You know unless it's done by major inquiry.
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Yeah. You know we have chemicals that where we dealt with many of them Nicholson you saw
me so I developed on this stuff. But even in that case I'm quite keen at times to go well that's not.
So just give it some minutes. But then it comes down to resourcing mindset so I don't think my
shift as I think is happening but I think it's also. Quite dependent on a lot of other stuff. Most of
the prostitution thing a lot of other. Ways in which the police and other agencies have a mindset
about how they do things. Generally when you talk about that mindset does that come down. To.
Resources. If we. Specifically talk about mindset side with the training that you say is the to.
Compete with it. Do you think that that will have changed. What is something else that
needs to happen in order to change that mindset to make it easier to do that. What do those kinds
of things. I think. Are the three things I think especially is the mindset which I think is changing
and has changed to generationally. I think it's also about time in the sense of. What you call an
organization of. You know. You've got an organization with 45 percent of our colleagues are
over a certain age then the others is sort of.
Percent Romney said a year. So until that. Probably gone. So I think it's a generational
thing here.
Pretty people behind him. And then so I think to get the mindset you've got the
generational change and social change then I think the third one is around. It being. Of objective
I would.
Support this right. So I know that a would be. Complicit.
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In a false. But actually some of it in effect drunken. So deep bench up objectives you
think you have to have you know basically. You know. What. Why do we try to reduce crime
you could actually come tell us to reduce crime. It tends to increase cognitive which I mean he's
got so many other that you can call thing something actually that was very much centralized at
the head say actually.
You're going to be rewarded for identifying this but actually it should be this is had to be
measured. Then you know if we were measuring and reporting on it. Then think you would see
change. Made because then we would then along resources to them. And that's what's more at the
moment it's about identifying it dealing with it but not identifying it's part of something else. It's
difficult. I think that's probably.
Going to happen we won't do it. You don't have to answer my next question.
Because you've spoken about all of this. They say it's public knowledge that can police be
structured in regard to their own ability. Do you think that's worked in favour of CSE.
I do think it has. I think the challenge with. The restructure is that we restructure to a
model. Where actually the skills of our officers. Wasn't to the point that that was basically.
What has been in place since I was a whole effort from a distance. We didn't finish so a
public a different mindset. So my colleagues around business and how things were. You're going
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to change a model of business then what you should do is you go for the mix this model we're
going to populate it with.
So if I'm going to be making a product and I've got 100 people who are really good at
tracking a product I'm going to go on I'm to stop making that product. I can't 100 people making
that product. I've got to train them and then make the other was going to go bankrupt. I mean so
what we've done complete and it's been done for the home and rightly later in the road because
we can do it we've got we got to get me to this model. But we haven't. Trained people to do that.
So we've moved that model and now we train them so all the people who is well it's another
month a certain set themselves skill set and then they move on from crime. So we didn't have a
nationally doesn't one of detective with the right skills and way the same. Circles it's going to
take time. The model is good. Yeah. And actually if we had changed model we'd be in a very
difficult place if we had a better way would. It work better in the future when the people in the
model for the right skills in the right place. That's going to take time. It's also it's a decision
commission must have been at some point do we wait till three years to train if we want to put in
a model and then that time things could change and actually we may never get there. Would we
go wrong with that. Go for it knowing that actually a slowing that won't happen. So in one word
it could be a lot but also if we were trying to say that that's the question. Yeah absolutely. There's
a bit of a bit of a joke that's made that we've made we've created one ability to use made
ourselves vulnerable by filling it with people because they're vulnerable because they don't know
they become verbal verbal giving something that is. Joking aside. That will be proven time and
nobody else in this structure is relevant.
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So I think there was a bit of a no win situation.
I only have two more questions and then I want to say I'm really sorry okay. Well no no I
just I just relax.
So next question was. Well amongst the length later questions we talked about the nature
of criminality and how that interacts with CSE. And you gave us the example of gangs that move
you know migration and come to lives with that. And that is the thing which we do talk about the
most freely literature and everything. Isn't that sort of stuff.
Is there any other type of criminality which you think interacts with CSE as strongly as
gang related activity.
I think the other two that come to mind that do gangs.
Your counterpart in gangs there's also other groups which we would call gangs. Never
been never used to what we call organized crime groups. So that's significant. Now I when I was
dealing with recently a part of their business model is they have CSE as part of that. So that's
another one of them that's not transferred from London that's actually local groups. Then the
other one is. Of course you've also got just groups of low class men getting would certainly be
tender I should say. But you might have a group from southeast where you get a little bit in this
infinite where you've got groups have come over as part of. Migration. From perhaps the world
but also I'm same. You can also have local men as well but they would. Prey on. Children.
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Young people for for their own means and of course if you think about it you need one or two
individuals to get together and things like that. We think that the dark web and social media are
things that are so much more accessible to people to fantasize and meet people in that way. So I
think those are the three if know what you like most people. Think that is you know you talk
about criminalise behaviour which is more effective on society well-meaning individuals. I think
those are the other two with the come and say gee you know was cool. And then you know
groups of individuals. And. Groups of individuals groups from it who becomes or involved. And
also we've seen that with other parts of country.
And lastly and speaking of dark like this. Well what do you think are of the current
trends. In the CSA. Because you know it has been changing and sometimes it's it's been sort of
initiated by predominantly the man. That was a trend at some point then there were other trends a
gave to PR CSE. So there's lots and lots of things happening across the country. So in your area
if you had to give me a little bit of a lecture to look out for. What do you think are the current
trends surrounding CSR at the moment.
So I think comes down to the big one for us because I think he got very high doesn't
When get to see very quickly. You've also got the increased sexualisation of children. So that's
what we're doing. And of course also social media is part of that.
I don't personally believe we do see part of it but I think it's difficult for us to Texas
because I doesn't believe the the elements of the scene in Rotherham among the things I
mentioned in fact unless we go away. I think that because as we become more aware they
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become aware that we're aware and of course you have got areas of society that really. You know
are. Not as visible. As ones or say back in the last year I went to Boston will make an exchange
with the police and they took us to what used to be the red light zone that is now completely.
Expensive really nicely done to does it. It also happens in their lives. And. It's just a law. Like.
Of that under our noses just we going to say it. And I think that's the thing with you know
policing is so far behind when it comes to we get hit again. But we're so far behind the trends
you know we just updated Windows 10. You have to wait seven years for a debate you know to
work through. You know we have the people next door to do social media stuff. So I think you
just are officers in most offices they've got to devices at least and they struggle with those. So
when you are aware of. I don't think we're quite. You know we're chasing. Something is adamant
every society that thinks so and we deafness we know they're going to wait until the victims say
well when we see some. Overt behaviour what someone's gonna be sending them to pick it up.
And. The. That. And. Then. We can. Talk about.
That perceptions and their awareness that this is more of a response. And so how does
your agency work then Rachel to attack the CSA and I expect that it means that really. Could
you give me some examples of how we did.
OK. So. You know I'll give you something we that address and identify address where we
were aware of. Perhaps one or two individuals that might be picked up from an address once
they've been missing and that address. We didn't do searches and we linked database searches
and we then realized that although some people went up that address the person address
addresses linked to them so that we could be like a complete address that we could address it's
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vulnerable. Then what we do that is work with our or to define who owns who dress what is
private rent social right. Social with and then put in some safeguards in place with housing.
Making sure that they some agreed behaviour which is in place those one. Within our
subdivision where exactly at your other chalet where we identified that it was a under house
situation from the school district and actually off the base notice children still find out the dress
code in place to.
Say something. So corn is a. Little. Sensitive to the case. It's. Basically a notice where we
serve a notice on an adult. Or child place you say.
You are really you are making people vulnerable and basically if you allow them to use
your dressing you come to contact with them.
Then we'll consider taking action. So it's almost like an expert warning base but he's
actually saying is accepted by the courts. So we put call in place.
And noticed folks us go home for a couple of days and say ethical calls. So we do that.
What was discussed this morning actually forcibly and in a morning meeting. So that's put in
place. And then if that behaviour continues those who look at justice outcomes we can do. But
honestly we would have to educate to address we. Did that. Recently. In. Phoenix calling to
address. Some. Of the things they moved to where they go.
On children down there. Normally they go in there because they. Get drugs at home.
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So so that soldier will say you can for the individuals why they go in there often is
because they're in foster care or child and the cops shot up they say.
And he said look we're looking into them graffiti response finds a place going to go
missing. That's just us understanding why they go in there picking those mechanisms. Can move.
You in sometimes. It's. An impression that responds right. I think if you look at. The missing
child's relation seeing. Stats since New Horizons started the time in which children go missing
how much we get back is massively reduced it was like three days down after a few hours I think
in most cases because of these plans because you identify these cases. Backstop. So that. If we
have a text assessment that comes up team. Every month. And that gives us from the data that
goes into our systems. Tells us. Of the top 10. And generally you can be on that one that we have
but occasionally you'll get one go to know that one then you look into it and a lot of big because
it puts one coming out of jail. Because. They turn to a. Point because actually no I didn't have
that actually they need to go in and do. That. And so I was going to ask you. About a success
story may sound that example that we gave us with in class success story in terms of its effects of
Nancy I suspect that the outcomes the all the test.
And you seeing much from that to the children that were involved. What's happened
since day your aware.
So one of the main children involved in that. Her name is Charlie Cox and then she
actually hosted.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse138
A lot of influence over as her peers. So actually she was named that county to two
different place so much and also in contact with him and that's been really successful outcome
for that child the.
They. And she was almost the ringleader to that change some behaviours the others it was
and also making sure. That. I think a couple of them to make sure the foster kids actually
contacted us in a timely way to say the mention was missing. The thing that involved.
The address because they know she was actually herself. So actually by taking address
off of her leaving it somewhere else a meant that broke that contact with that address because it
was so much they were contacting about folks that tell you to dress you know the gangs or
cutting their bond movie and then watching the movie said from all places. So she snuck onto a I
was part of conception and shipped them to the south and one visit with her every couple of days
to make sure she spent the morning in the cell to make sure she's not being taken both jobs. Not
looking at both sides. Yes it's father a certain extent working with education so we can show that
she's educated singing songs. As well. So that was a. I don't think there's anything else that was
that we did around that I wanted to ask girls because I. Still want to vote and they don't want is
an editorial Paul connection is quite something. So. We recognized that it wasn't an address at a
location so they could be working with the council to relax and not get funding for new paper
making sure that we controlled it appropriately making sure that they can hold children so. They
can. Make it to 65 and that was massive. When I was in there was like. Massive air in the middle
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part which is just so growing the CCTV coverage. And then people go in there and get some ID.
So it was just kind of a back. And little things like that. That's what you have to function.
In a multi agency setting. How do you. Measure outcomes. What outcomes are you off
to. Because every agency has is different care. So when you're all together how would you
measure effectiveness.
OK. So normally it's around. The councils are quite big on ISP and social behaviour.
That's correct. So they look at that record levels of crime. Stats change it might because of funds
going up because the way to the quality of the things that can be quite challenging repeat
locations. We. Concession will choose they want the things we're looking for opportunistic abuse
and so different is that of Mr Beazley. Rates are going up and we know that is not. Bad things
about competence identifying but actually police said as a. Safe coach. Why shouldn't we be
watching for peace. How we should really be successful. Should we be punishing success on
how many of those repeats.
Someone who's coming week after week saying they've been assaulted kicked into one
stop shopping services without success. The minimal intimate so actually which we should be
mentioned we look looking away that we can then look at managing and responsible things.
And actually look at the big data campaigns that we can begin. So that's how it's done. So
we we've our day together. But I know that when we did scrutiny panels which is. Before the
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse140
year. And the year. So council chamber where. Sort of scrutinize what we're doing. The pre
meeting we think they should go on a pace based on this last year it's come down here.
And that's what we use we build things together.
Yeah. In theory and. It sounds great. Any plans. Out when it doesn't fire.
Yeah. This is all dependent on the partners. I don't think Paul is dependent on individuals
and individual characters. So the reason why I come back to the article that Ashford and I think.
Some aspects of that ship high is because. The partnership ship was a bit more challenging.
Because of the individuals involved in a partnership that is getting better. And. That's been a
challenge so when I was working there last year we had some really good relationships but
actually sometimes it's quite ineffectual.
That different chairs at the meeting every quarter. So how are you actually holding on to
account. If you've got that. It is. Difficult. Then you know that's. I think there are. There are
some key indicators that show what's working whether or not. If you look for the minutes the
meetings in the case tend to how making their 10 day not today we're not sure that they have.
Been active there. Hopefully the. Practices. Because the weather. And the weather and
the other districts and they might've done it but it's not been advertised in the same way. Well
that's because different. Districts works in different ways and entered an off expenses meeting.
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So that's something that stands out for. I think. If you go around to the community safety
managers or Chief Inspectors. Only makes the case see you know it's.
Very difficult to gauge which means they feel and work through tourism. We have.
Some. Of. The. Bankruptcies up in Maidstone that has a key safety public partnership that we've
got. Some centres that work together in the same building fire and police and but they keep
telling me. You speak to her and she'll tell you which ones. She goes to the meetings and she'll
take the ones where she's coming around and the ones that she can see working. It is often about
characters and. The Christmas people involved and their willingness to work together.
Information sharing because I think an employee.
At least the ones I'm writing to it's been sort of a continuous difficulty to share
appropriately and you know to share confidentiality and ensure all of those things that share what
needs to be shared.
Any condition that I think you can that is surging on is not held back because of that
thing. I always think this has been the half full half empty it's alcohol. You know. I think why do
I not want to share it.
Rather than want you know why should I. But why should I. So. It's. And again I think it
depends a lot on the individuals involved. In.
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A Japanese place and this is really sensitive information. You know we can change things
by feeling really nice great meeting of the rights or. Crimes around them because it's an interest
in. Protection of Life.
Extension programs every session. But then again it comes comes down to. Individuals
and parties involved. It doesn't have you have two computer systems. Doesn't it because. You
know other things coming into place which is going to. Be interesting. But even that doesn't
resolve the issue because. Not everyone is going to have access to. Different things. So I think
that's challenging. I would hope that. The. Way the.
Contract is working well together the people could talk to each other and that information
gets shared. You know I mean the communication with some say you know. Friend Lisa that
must be sensitive to the technology you this year and whatever but there won't be another
meetings where all meetings go one way individually and the lift down to the ground floor. So
I'm just gonna we I think we will do that in the meeting because of this. That's just completely.
Part of this you know friendship Actually I think it about when the services last year was going
to stop. And what went into meetings and we will work together to try to get to a better outcome.
And then on the way down literally if the guy who was on the council suddenly you know what
you said and there is one thing but we know he spoke to people CSE sends. Someone to tell you
that school because I would have just said that. What was said about this thing that's. People
being busy is.
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They'd like to shift responsibility to another agency. Why do you think this. So nothing
happens.
I think so. It's about relationships with people because I think.
If in a short time that we've been here. If they know something really important to me we
share it because. But then I think sometimes US depends on the two way flow and how people
are.
So I suppose they are they. Secondly it's about a joint understanding between everybody
since we'll be in the show and having them share it and then I think. Of with the partnership
meeting with multiple agencies. And you've got funding involved in politics involved people
who own agendas. So they then. I think a lot of thinking mostly I'd say no we don't belong to
people who we. Want to. Topic. That. People so often don't share stuff because they don't feel.
That. The awareness they need to.
Help him get elected. That's how important it is and people would neglect to think that a
ton of information more to tell you that jigsaw you need. To complete. They. Don't. In their life.
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing kind of go back to your agency isn't it. Do you think that
there's enough resources that go towards tracking CDC.
No. However we have the resources that we've got. I think the balance is right. All.
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Right. That's what. I refer to as the ends. You can trade. You know you said that there is
things there are coming already. It's a slow process and you gotta think externally surrounding
CSE that you think is good or internally what was going on. They think he's having a good
impact. I think a lot of the con ships are from the same shoes so to you.
Each. Every. Piece of what. They are want a mandate to share and trunk agency to
understand is something that is a good thing. And.
Is continuing. I think internally I think it becomes a lot down to people being trained to
be detectives people being trained to be. Child protection specialists that we have enough those
that power that. Not everybody has that. Terabyte of liquid state I've been on a mandated mental
health training course which is pretty good. But there's not a mandated that has CSE as part of
the show was three they went into last year which we have so far has have that. I think is in they
just. Keep building that. Information. Is. Because of the financial that whatever we have he said
they not trained on the moment. We encountered these other people. So. You know. I'll be honest
with you often encounter for. Someone else to try a bit more. To do something else make little
about them.
And come back safe because the state really. But Sam it's perfect so I think there's I don't
think we've really got the balance right. However can place. I know we spend more on training
many of the places in the country. So you know we all train more than anyone. So there's an
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse145
element I think it's. It's about having specialists in place and sometimes in a specialist so that
they. Can. Do.
Understanding if that makes sense. But. I think more can be done and probably the issue
with. All of this is that this report is supported Tom said if he went to police station today the
biggest prise at the moment is on active crimes or outstanding offenders. There's 100 calls on the
call list. So. It. Is just volume. That's where we are. So then you start a new computer to learn
which is the biggest change we can police probably a decade. So you know safety is priority but
it's amongst. A lot of approaches. And if you go to any police station say and say what she calls
it again. She gets because of obstacles. And it is something that can we can. You know that
sometimes that's what we all get. When we took by a mandated seat and there's like three day
mandated. Going back to that. And.
On a personal level. Do you think there's enough inquisitiveness because people are more
inquisitive to seek out passively that might then raise awareness which wouldn't be training
necessarily would they seek the training out and if there is more need for it to be provided do you
think that there is enough inquisitiveness in the force. I think there is enough because it is I think
that. We have and. We. Often treat. Our staff like children when we speak for them. Something.
I know it's one thing city responsibility. The problem is with giving the space for that. So
it's what people these things innovation. You know for some great innovators of what they might
say.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse146
But you got to give me the space to have the ideas and innovative and you know people
to be using them in a very different thing but in a similar way. This is like when people you
know when I was on trial for the day changing something of interest. Want. You.
To notice that we'd be corrected. No that's nothing. Anymore. Because I couldn't afford
to go to the school. They don't have the room. To be practically inquisitive. So they don't
therefore also all you have to read to be mentally inquisitive say well I don't want to go what.
Do. They just detect a detective program that you think has changed around that is that you didn't
do well you know Tom Don't touch if you did it course I the. Exams did cause everything my
time. Portfolio for going to tell think if I punished for it. Now that's upsetting too. Actually if you
do this will be for the time we'll give you something to Buddy alongside they'll show you what
like. Suddenly people are pointing to it. So it's giving the people the space and the time they're in
the headspace that if we did that they would probably do that. And then you'd get other people
involved because they have a passion for it rather than mandating you know ability to because
six months ago. They did extremely.
Well this kind of relates to quite a lot of bits and pieces that you were talking about. But
the other side of inquisitiveness so this is inquisitiveness in terms of. Kind of like personal and
professional development. But then there's the other side of inquisitiveness surrounding CSE
where lots of ultimate points again have been stating that the police have been so focussed on the
procedural issues and that's what they trained in another training is procedures running in. The
background understanding that you know they saw somebody drinking in the park and then.
They went to the legislation and you know being drunk in a public space whatever it is rather
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse147
than being inquisitive about why it's happening. So is any of that being interesting
inquisitiveness till more so I'll look into the root causes of what is happening with some of this
time rather than just being that procedural injustice.
So I think what has to happen is I still think the procedural stuff happens to a point. I
think what does happen is the officers who are procedural and don't unless you think about the
front end. Would now be pausing in the information referrals. That then goes to the team that
then goes to the key seat meaning that they would go the second what's happening with it. And
then there's people in there picking up. So I think that's probably the lead we've got. We never
used to have think we just joined in the part I was more likely.
To. Thank you again. Now that would get put on a recall that go through to be referred
through.
And since you pick them so actually would. What's happened with Jodi he at school
today. And that's. I think that that is now. That's what's happening now. It wasn't happening. We
got to the point where every officer goes actually does that. Again I don't think there I think that's
because we. We teach officers do things it's always a slight. It's. A. It's a competing competing
training piece of time so you know the really good example around this political is around. We.
We criticize officers and where there's a lot of scrutiny that we scrutinize a lot more seasoned
police about how we judge people.
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Why do such someone do such more black people in central London. That's good. You
should not judge people. There is discrimination but we shouldn't judge you don't to me. They
wanted policing. We teach people to judge people. That's what policing is about when I drive
down the road like I want that doesn't do any good on the high she was a homeless person. To be
judging all the time she's ordinary one make a judgment because that's what I'm trying to do you
know. So basically we say to officers you should be judging. And then you shouldn't be just so
mean. So it's very it's very.
You know I think it comes back to the core of she why we want them to police in what
way and what the expectations are. And that's school social government. Let's say.
Some deals and then. Inquisitiveness is almost the same thing. As. Being judgmental.
Boy do you think that. There can be a bit of a distance between those two because they think that
what is being taught to police officers in terms of having to challenge is what the police say is
just the tip. But then I think the way inquisitiveness has been presented in before is. It's kind of
like a stepped down version of events. So rather than. You know judging someone it's much sort
of more vague questions. So it doesn't mean the person you're being judged is thing that's
completely contrary to what police officers are being told. I think I think the kind of things that I
think judgment is different to.
Judging is different to judgment. So I think one thing is that you've got to make a
decision which is a judgment of about are you going to be inquisitive or are you going out go
down a limb. I think that's where it starts at its facing empowering officers mutuals giving them a
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse149
cop to say actually. This is why I expect you to do this and this is why and actually to get it
wrong ultimately as long as you're telling someone you're doing. Then there's no remember most
most only can drinking will sign language. So it's imperative officers making sure that they feel
safe within the decision making. I'm so I think I think it's a lesser sense of judgment. Yeah but it
is still there and. It's like when. You know if I'm walking down the High Street community for
what I'm going to search somebody. Being questioned so it's going on what you're doing. That's
initially just because I have to judge them to be more limited. So I don't think. Too I think the
two thing very much into that. So yeah so but it's it's it's a so. In recent years the government.
Through their policies and legislation and taking a huge amount of discretion apparently from
police look at the ballot that was changed they kept the stuff around stop and search. That was
changed. In us. I don't think many people understood the mill impact of that. The fact that you
can't serve someone if they smoke cannabis particulars. No actually it's not so I they still can
they still can ask questions but it's the way it's been. But you have those things taken away. I'm
not saying they shouldn't have happened. That's about how Alex race Alex Alex communicated
to all Americans they knew and seen talks and don't know that you account for that. But you
must still recall it and you are still. She sent me. So is this. You know I think officers got real
mixed messages with. You I feel really confident in what you were doing to be able to. Make
that judgment. I don't think a lot people we speak the way I would talk about it because I'm
confident and able to speak about a. Local you just belong to do this because I'm positive.
Yeah. Again I think that comes back to my niece isn't it. And the generational thing is
that they're setting a and here and great since the younger they are. Yeah I think when you know
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse150
people in the organization and broken up with government the TV companies are locked up
around the. Presentations about the victims come down and say.
That we should be amazing. You and you got that because you know. You can have. A
repeat of. What happened. Most people is really. Passionate about it quite rightly. It's going to
take. Them 20 years. But then you know when the people that it in their late 20s today are. In a
50 to.
70 lots of time. I think the other ones in there nothing that's why don't see change. But.
There's also a lot of stuff in place which will change place in the. Introduction that people have
integrated policing.
And. I think police officers are going next year and you start in over 4000 pounds less
and. I started. Two decades ago. So you get difficult evidence. So this is a little challenging. But.
Now I've got nobody I'm sorry. I'll. Think about. It.
Pretty as. And in an ideal world. In whatever way that is. What do you think about budget
restriction of. And what do you think should happen for organizations to Brady successfully
tackle and. Say. OK so what are the key things that this change. Is the ownership of CSA it this
change to health. So helpfully properly funded.
In this area like mental people that they're not properly funded in those areas. So when
you look at most of the police dealt with and you look around the world around with stuff like
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you go to states of Canada where they have. Better success rates in certain areas it's often
because a different agency poses a problem. What is the issue. He's often around mental health
attitudes social deprivation and actually it's making sure that life serves the Senate and they've
got to deal with them the whole time that actually what a lot of issues down there. If they were
owned by Health and properly. Financed in that way then that would actually resolve the law
which is something.
Police should be playing a full part Nichols family better specialist would be better. But I
think action is this and is one of them or actually help should be taking the lead and actually
criminal should be secondary and then it comes back to them front of the people. Can offer the
victims. And that amazes me too. I think that is a key thing and it would have to come from
central government say actually this is a stand alone thing this leads on. The.
Solution. It's almost as radical as I thought. That's not the problem. I feel that the the
health sector is the lead on state funding in this country isn't it.
Well know I mean it's around the actual actual police who want their prosecution of 18
where they actually. So actually when we go through things winning crisis what goes along with
all these other mental health crises that we end up and the power is all put out. So yeah I agree.
You know there is a. An agency thing but I mean as far as when you cut it a Giants
branch in this area of police business it's not at all the place business is healthy. Yeah but it's
populated by officers to use their powers. And you have a very different. Yeah I think that would
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be an issue and you look that feeds into the social confidence the mental health. They would then
feed into the individuals that do this and try and generally they're not healthy individuals.
From public of space. I think that. That would. Change a lot with. A lot more. But all that
comes up. So of course. You. Can't address.
It last night. Any suggestions or any other. Anything I should say maybe. Not offensive a
sentence she stands right now.
I think it's out of the box and I two things I missed you wrong. I still think that some of
some really top things probably come out. Is come because I think.
You know there was definitely a period in the Northeast where we weren't looking at
things in the way that we are now. You know state levels. May kill this.
Police. Police yes. Police are different decades. By piece by all right values. This is a bit
of a quandary. Sexual Crimes now come into the courts. You know several several people
around that is actually already judging different cultures by comparison. Which is always a
challenge. Not simply individuals. Because they were. Both in this space. There are certain
things will come out and held on to. Which is the challenges is making sure we then are able to
say. We. We are aware of that will love and could actually be more. And this is already in place.
I think if those things come out and we haven't they already got some in place a thing that's
when. We probably. Feel. Mr.. Our pleasure thank you so much.
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CSE Team Coordinator Multi Agency
I'll put this on. Okay.
But not telling me your name. Could you tell me what your role is. So I'm 18 coordinator
yes within child sexual exploitation and I am a link between a variety of services social services
health police.
And early help. And I also have to do risk assessments. All right.
Anything that comes into us just so I understand because I'm probably does not get this.
Are you like officially employed by one of these organizations officially put back in place.
Right. So that's how. OK. That's just me.
And just for the demographic section of the paper could I ask for your age. Yeah twenty
26 and I'm assuming that you have your birth here since the team got together.
No I've only been on the team for a year. Are you. Kidding. OK.
So number one can you please summarize your background in this agency but also maybe
outside and how sort of what you do kind of helps with tackling CSC. Yep.
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So when I first started working for the place I've done a lot of different roles. I've worked
in a PNC Bureau doing research on life. Chris coincidence. I've done some licensing at Maine.
I've worked in major crime departments so it was the flip side working move more around
suspect. So it's just really good to come in and work with victims really now so it's sort of more
around the victim engagement. Yeah which is good. But if that sort of research that ability that
I've gained from the other departments has massively helped here and the links with other
departments has been useful for various various inquiries of course.
So this question is kind of the same but just so that we have sort of more specifics is what
your involvement in countering CSC is.
So with mine I do the risk assessments on any instance that come in and we're notified
about it. So for me that would be working out where we've been at risk setting they'll be whether
or not it's gonna be something that our team will deal with. Looking at sharing the information
with social services early help in helping to try and get that flow of information running straight
off the bat and. Not yet quickly so that we can have the holistic picture. I also arrange most of
our events and do all of our organizing for our open days and stuff so that we can get the word
out. I've done a few sort of training in Perth and I'm going to be going up to another department
who take calls. So if they get anything CSC related then we can provide them with an issue
safeguarding advice and make sure that it's been dealt with from when that risk comes in
assessing the immediacy here so that we can have a appropriate response around it and helping
them work out who they need to contact and the best way that they can safeguard.
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Nice up going off track here. But that's what I do when it comes to these sort of processes
that you have in place. I always would like risk assessments and all of that. How do you feel
about that. Do you think that will explain. I think it needs improving because it's always going to
be one of these departments where we'll get.
Different levels of information coming in and we have it coming in from so many
different places you that there's not really a standard of this is what we're asking for so this is
what we get. It will just be seemingly random information sometimes that you can't necessarily
risk assess on its own and until you've had time to build up the picture you can't do a risk
assessment and when you're waiting on other people to give you information by that time the risk
is just going up and up and up. So it's really hard to sort of manage that. And at the same time
your risk assessment based on what a teenager is willing to tell you. How do I know they're not
necessarily willing to talk to a stranger about their sex life. Yeah.
No. Fair enough. Yes.
Right. So this sort of first half of everything is really about perceptions of CSG. So the
first thing we always ask is What do you actually think. Who do you think. You want anyway.
She'll understand me by the end of this. Who do you think are the agency that should be
responsible for tackling CSG. I think.
It needs to be completely across the board. I don't think you can do this with one sole
agency taking a lead and it needs to start pretty much not as such an agency needs to sell with a
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parent in here and it needs to go right through from schools it needs to be like social workers
early help health have got big pots play in the police obviously do their investigations but I think
there's not an awful lot of organizations and charities that are set up to actually help people when
they do come to our attention and there's not a lot of intervention ever. So we've got a massive
gap where. At the moment we're sort of. Firefighting all the time with China cure something
that's happened and deal with the reality after it's happened rather than was put in place
something to prevent it which would be the ideal scenario.
Yeah. No of course. So how well do you think that the nature and extent of CSC is
actually understood by the police and maybe other agencies.
I don't think it's understood particularly well. I think people have got basic knowledge.
But. They'll get. A very small amount of time spent with one person and it may well be based on
one incident on its own. You're not looking at that from a CSA point of view. Right. So they
wouldn't necessarily then delve deeper into the sort of like why did it happen. Why have you
done this. I don't think people maybe have the time or the knowledge or understanding to ask the
right questions. Right. So I think sometimes the questions that get asked can seem not quite
blaming rather than being asked in a more sensitive way to actually get a response from
someone.
So that sounds to me because obviously I sort of look at this from a research perspective
and like previous publications and all of that. It does sound to me that some of those things that
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse157
have been out there where victims feel like they're actually getting blamed for things and all that
sort of stuff still happens.
Yeah. And I think it seems that even when you've got what wouldn't necessarily maybe
look like it was something CSG related. If you're turning around someone who's being exploited
and you said what did you do that for you to waste. That language that infers writing onto them
when they're not in control of situation. So why I'm trying to put it onto them.
Do you think that some agencies are maybe better than others. And I'm the reason why
I'm asking that is do you think that there are certain agencies where we can learn from.
I think it's difficult because we all deal with things from a very different perspective. It's
really hard because with the best will in the world without more people it's really hard to get
better at something because you don't have the time or. Finance to put into it. So I think the
police do the best they can do with the resources they've got from an investigation point of view.
I think social service tenacity help have got an incredibly difficult job getting the engagement
from not just the victim but their family members. And I think health again it's very difficult
when you've got child sat in a room to ask questions that they're not comfortable here asking
when they've got their parents sat next to them and they might not necessarily want to answer. So
I think everyone's doing the best they can with you got which isn't enough and what are your sort
of personal views when I say personal obviously it's personal legal profession on the nature and
extent of CSC and it's definitely growing thing. Whether or not it's because we've got more of it
happening or people are just becoming more aware of what to look out for and so they report. It's
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hard to tell. But there were definite areas that it is a huge huge problem. And I don't. Think we're
even sort of scraping the tip of the problem in a lot of areas. But. I don't think that's going to go
away. I think if anything is going to get bigger and that she's because of the demographics of
Kent. So yeah it makes it a nightmare.
I mean speaking of demographics funny you say that because I have too much to lose.
So how would you characterize sort of the demographics of the potential victims and the
perpetrators knowing that anybody can be a victim anybody can be a perpetrator but what do you
think is the sort of the current outlook of what we should be looking out for. So we've got. A lot.
Of.
Children's care homes. We've got the links that come to him from London. We've got the
ports. So we're sort of dealing with all aspects that he would put forth in CSA whether it's at the
traffic inside there whether it's gangs and groups the drug deal in parts of where we've got the
fact that you've got very very vulnerable children and unfortunately they're in very close
proximity to gangs and people who are looking for someone to take advantage of. So it just
demographically is not a great area to be here.
Yeah of course. And would you say that there are some sort of populations and this is
again for both victims and perpetrators who are may be at more risk of being victims or
perpetrators. We've definitely seen. An.
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Increase in males who are not originally from the youth offending. And I think it's
generally we've always sort of said that we don't have a typical trend. So it's been quite hard to
manage but we are seeing the increase in levels from other countries offending. And so that is
will it be a group thing or is it sort of load of people as well. As by four years across the board
we'll get sort of lone offenders as such and then we'll get the bigger group aspect of it and
victimize again. Is. Anyone anyone anyone we can look at as much as what I can say that doesn't
look like there's a vulnerability around. But yeah unfortunately no I don't. Where are they. And
you've sort of.
It is but the question is has there been an increase in the number of potential victims.
Yes. So you were kind of talking about the fact that you definitely had more reported
victims. Yes. So do you feel that there is an actual increase in victims generally or is it more so
just the report. Look I think the report it is an issue but I think there's more. Victims now as well
just.
Whether it's again because they suddenly realized that they are actually being exploited
he said that recognizing them themselves as victims which we know takes a long time to do
anyway but lockstep with the links from London and surrounding counties and how easy it is for
gangs to come to him from is we definitely seeing. I would say an increase and just the
associations that people are making. Yeah. And we'll sort of have. A go from one area and then
suddenly she'll be cropping up in information the opposite side of the county with enough a
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vulnerable young girl. I'd like to see more and they don't state to one area so it's sort of drawing
people in from all over the place at the moment.
It makes it easy for you.
How do you feel that there any sort of trends within CSC in terms of some of the models
of CSC being more prominent than others so are we seeing more of the boyfriend or to peer on
peer or the stranger danger or. I think that looking we're seeing a lot of that.
To appear on. I don't necessarily think they know they're doing it but we're seeing some
of that increasing people bringing their friends to various situations and we are sort of seeing
probably more from the gang and groups side of years is now and not even just the ones that
come in from London. But we're having more of an issue within Ken and Medway of little
pockets of people who give themselves campaigns and suddenly coming out to be mentioned in a
lot of our crime reports or information which again until we actually know that they're really
hard to sort of disperse and deal with.
So of course I mean again I'm really sorry for keeping to read ask you questions but you
always tell me a bit of a different question. So you are sort of talking about the fact that there is
this almost a change in the type of criminality that is hand and so am I right in understanding that
that has to do with what CSC looks like as well. Yeah I think so because we're getting more. And
more sort of like drug activity more so of.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse161
Violent crime as well. So I think if that's the right setting. And that can be used as sort of
a hook or a stay in point for a victim because they don't have a way out there's not just a I can go
because nothing is going to happen to me they're suddenly surrounded by this gang mentality of
like well you're getting your drugs for me you owe me money or if you go then you will end up
getting stabbed. So I think seeing the rise in other types of criminality is definitely having an
impact on our ability and effectiveness in dealing with it.
Are there any other sort of current trends in criminality on top of the new sort of gang
issues which you feel the impact on CSC. We've.
Had new departments all over the place in campaigns so I think the missing element is
huge. And as well we've got the paedophile online teams just come today. So we're seeing now a
lot more of the online stuff as well. Yeah. So the online grooming and the self like probably the
lone paedophiles behind this computer screen that people would probably not necessarily
associate with they are now coming in and sort of drawing mint with silver offering money for
pictures. So it's not necessarily contact CSA but they're still being offered get something in
return for a sexual favor.
Yeah definitely. So just to sort of sum it up for me. There's all sorts of types of seizures
really ongoing and it's not really that there would be a strong prevalence of one type or another
and really it's kind of all sort of right across the board which makes it. Much harder to deal with.
Kids. So that's kind of the perceptions of nature of you see now moving on to responses. And I
was sort of talking about this previously as well your you are in a slightly different environment
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse162
than other people that I would speak to so normally I would be asking about how your agency
works with other agencies but your agency is multiagency ready.
So rather than asking the original question I think it's important to sort of get an
understanding of what you think of as well in this specific multiagency because it is quite neat so
looking at CSC and the type of people that are part of it. So why does it work. What are some of
the challenges and is success. See if.
It works because rather than sending off someone's or a request for someone's medical
records or their latest GP appointment asking around in my chair and send it or send an e-mail to
someone who sat in the same office as me and I can have that physical conversation they because
of their links into their I service can get that information pretty much within a couple of hours by
the end of the day at the latest. So rather than wait in weeks and weeks for another e-mail to
come back free because it's been bouncing around or someone's been on leave here that we didn't
know about. We get that almost instantly. And there are always going to be challenges because
every agency has their own own policies their own procedures so it is difficult. And I think it
definitely highlights the strains on each individual agency when you're trying to work with them.
And you're saying I can't do anything. I've got no one unless and I never can wait. So it does
highlight the challenges from all all sides but then trying to understand. Each other's points of
view because we're working from an investigation and business. I'm here to obtain evidence
point of view. Whereas social services will be looking at it from a. We need to safeguard this
child. We need to move here or we need to do this. So we sort of end up having quite a few
crashes but luckily the people we've got in our office are very very good at sort of explaining
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse163
from both sides how it works and why there's that bumping of heads analyzed so that we can
work around it success wise.
It's really really quick. If we've got an immediate concern about someone and their
placement and.
Where they're currently staying. We've got practice development officer who can just
come straight in and get those concerns raised to a much higher level than we would be able to
buy just to get a referral form. So it's much quicker for us to be able to get someone removed
from what's a dangerous situation than it would be if we were sent in all forms and waiting for
someone to call us back and tell us what was happening.
Yes. And do you think because this is actually a really unique team because it's one. Well
it's the only team that sort of oversees the counties. And not every four is actually has a team. We
don't have the whole county. Do you think that works well because as you were saying actually
there seems to be some sort of popping up all over the place.
So you know does that work well that you are overseeing such a large area. It's difficult
because there's smaller teams on districts so they'll deliver with much smaller ever more
localized knowledge. For us it's difficult because we don't have that local knowledge of where
people are likely to be where things are likely to pop up. So we're relying on that information
being let back into us.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse164
It does work from point of view that we can manage and provide the overarching support
to other people. But I think it's actually quite difficult to say from a centralized point to then try
and manage a whole county of children when we've got so many children that are vulnerable.
And how do you sort of decide that because you I forgot what the acronym is now. But
you have all those local teams who are also kind of both the age of things. So I know this may
sound like such a silly question but who sort of decides what the child is going to be taking care
of what team.
So generally we've got the missing child exploitation team. They will deal with the ones I
was all forms of exploitation and sexual exploitation to a lower risk level. And they will
specifically pick that up if that child is being reported missing or they've got previous working
knowledge of them because they've gone and assisted when they're facing. So we try to keep that
consistency to that child by saying right you've already been dealt with with that team stay of.
The people that you know because they're much more likely to have a good rapport and get what
they need to be able to help that child. We've got the vulnerability teams who if there's a sexual
offense against a child and there's a hint maybe that there could have been some CFC involved
it's not really confirmed either way. Then they're normally the best people to go to because they
are as there's a specific department within their team that works with child just children so they
have officers who are more equipped and locally so they can get there much quicker to go and
deal with children if there's any GCSE concerns there was just that was nice that we made the
CSA. But they will manage that victim for us. Whereas US remit is.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse165
Constantly back and forth and changing what we do. And that again comes down to
resources that will deal with sort of like a high level CSA.
And then years later poor victims. Yeah right.
So all these other agencies whilst of course you can never see CSC as separate from
something else. Yeah but they sort of. That wouldn't be their primary objective. Yes there is that
sort of. Yeah.
You've answered this for me already. But tell me more does it.
Is there enough resources being put into CSC. No I don't think they will.
In what ways like of course we don't have magic wands to create money but in what ways
do you feel that resources are really really needed. So where should we really be thinking about
them.
From a policing point of view so it's a growing point. It is hugely so that we're seeing
more and more victims coming forward. We're seeing more and more incidents and because
we're such a small team. We can't go to things that we think we should be going to where the
specialist team and we can see someone needs a specialist team to support them or to help them.
And we can't get there so it's quite frustrating from that point of view. Social Services and other
agencies are always going to be in the same boat that there's not enough resource.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse166
So they're sort of managing what they can. It's not necessarily that people get in enough
support or enough time put into them to sort of help them recover or help them with the trauma
side of things. Yeah but definitely from a peace investigation point of view our team's been cut
pretty much. We lost two thirds of a team with some changes. So for us that makes it very very
difficult to then manage a whole county and oversee what's happening in the whole county.
Well I'd say so to some of the consequences of course of not having enough resources
from what you're saying is that you can't deal with all the cases that you should be. But it's also
the service I guess. Yeah. So I would servers that provided the things that we would.
We in an ideal world would like to give support wise. That way they're not able to give
and just where we just sort of like you know it's happening but. Because you can't. Get to that
person and you're leaving that you feel that you're leaving them vulnerable you leaving the risk.
And then if something does happen you're always going to say anything about two more
people. We could go on and we could have stopped it sort of thing. So it's sort of like you're in a
job where you're in the job because you've obviously got the passion and you want to prevent
something. And at the same time you recognize you can't save the world but. When you can see
the risk is clearly there and you can't necessarily get someone out to it.
It's horrible. Right. So if you could generate more countering CSG activity then what sort
of activities would they be what would you prioritize.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse167
I've definitely prioritized intervention. I think there is not enough by far. I think. The
schools in particular are absolutely terrified. Of dealing with it because they seem to educate
people about it they don't want people to think that it's because there's a problem within that
school and with the best will in the world if they don't know about the risk then how can you
protect yourself from it. And it's not it's not comfortable subject to talk about and I appreciate
fully that it's difficult for people to talk to a teenager you know and expect them to be receptive
to what you're saying but if people have at least tried then then hopefully they will retain
something or if something was to happen to them they might sit there. I mean they might think I
know who I need to speak to now or hang on that actually. That wasn't okay. And if they don't
know it's not okay then. Ten years down the line when it's been happening for a long time it's
much harder to fix. OK.
Very low. The question coming up so how well do you actually feel that your agency's
your multiagency team is prepared to tackle CSC and I think our abilities have got.
Less. It's definitely decreased and. That's due to the fact that we've got covering
investigations that are abstract pretty much all of our staffing. So when new things are happening
we don't we don't have the ability to then go and deal with it. We cannot liaise with other
departments about areas of concern in specific locations. But then they're in the same boat as
ours because they're fighting fire out on the front line and trying to deal with sort of all the
varieties of crime. And to them they probably don't understand the importance of no need to pay
more attention to that one location when they're sitting with god knows how many jobs that
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse168
they're trying to get to and that do unfortunately they have to be prioritized because of the risk
involved for them.
OK. Now thinking about it kind of sort of follows on from that question do you feel that
there is enough training that is provided on CSC and that's within this sort of team but also kind
of wider. So do you think that we're you know I've been educated enough to be trained enough.
Do we actually know how to recognize what we're supposed to think at home.
We're all pretty much clued right up with what we need to know. It's always going to be a
developing thing. Yes it's always going to change. So as soon as we're sort of keeping up with
what's happening and paying attention sort of like how things are occurring and how it starts then
we can sort of stay in touch with it but it's very difficult to be ahead of it when you're having to
react all the time. I think from the rest of the organization because they're so busy and we can
never abstract a whole team or a whole area to do a full day's training or weeks and weeks and
training which effectively CSC you are never going to get in a day. I think there's so much to it
that when they're faced with the potential wealth they've gone out to deal with a specific crime.
It's really difficult for them to then be sitting there thinking oh hold on a minute now I
need to look for signs of CSC or how was I meant to ask that particular question. So I don't
necessarily think it's a lack of training or understanding from them. I just think it's that there is
far too much going on for them to weave and give it a second floor near the actually you know
there might be something more surrounding this. Don't tell us. Maybe if they think about us hey
they might tell us that this has happened.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse169
It seemed a bit strange but that won't be until death. Not dealing with that person
anymore. And actually it's two days later. It kept me awake at night because of. Oh God I didn't
ask this question. And now it's bothering me. So I think the training they've done what they can
do. But there's such a high turnover of staff as well. So when you're trying to train someone well
this is about CSC when they're learning the rest of their job role. It's just too much for them to
retain and it's too much information from to manage it.
Yeah all at once. Make sure they follow indirectly on foot from what you were just
saying. Do you think that there actually is enough inquisitiveness from professionals to try and
figure out what is actually happening with the people they're seeing. I think there is not always
enough.
Professional curiosity from a police inside of things because they're very focused on the
offense side of things and either is or it isn't an offense rather than oh what's the in-between that
wears that grey area come from why is that happened or why we had that phone call sort of thing
with other services we might see that there's maybe slightly too much professional curiosity and
that might sound like a weird thing to say but they'll maybe read really far into something and
just somehow link it to CSA when you look at what they're saying. It's not a buzzword thing. It's
OK. It's almost like they're looking for a reason for it to fit under an umbrella all the time. And
it's the hot topic at the moment CSA is the thing that's in the press it's same it's everywhere it's
the main trading focus for most places. So I think everyone is constantly trying to link it back to
CSA some how. Without necessarily having any information that would substantiate or
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse170
corroborate what they're saying. You know it's then difficult to manage it from both ends of the
spectrum and try to find a compromise in the middle. Yeah. No.
That's fair. Some of what previous research has been seen as well. Is that and this is I
think kind of like as part of this whole inquisitiveness debate is that professionals don't want to
see the worst in the things and they prefer to see them nice things so that it's not really quite that
they're not actually inquisitive but they kind of too scary to know what's happening. Yes. Do you
still find that so do you still think that that's something that goes on now.
Yes I think people don't want to see how bad the issue is. And it's almost like if you lift
that rock you've then got to deal with what's underneath it. So it's better to just not lift the rock
and. Potentially. You know what. If you have a look you're gonna have to ask some really
awkward questions. And nobody. Wants to have to ask those questions or to be sat in front of a
child and ask the child those questions let alone have to then deal with the answers that you get
because then you can ask a question you might not like what you hear.
Last question then if I gave you a magic wand what would you do in terms of tackling
CSC.
I would massively work with other organizations charities therapeutic services try and set
up not just for intervention but they're not a massive wraparound care for not just the victim but
this whole family is the trauma makes someone very unstable. So then when you're trying to deal
with.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse171
That person it's not just effective that one person is affected the whole family everyone's
dealing with it. So I think there needs to be better wrap around care. And I mean in an ideal
world we could deal with probably 10 times the amount of stuff we've got to try and at least
alleviate some of the pressure and allow us to actually do our jobs to mean we're doing it to the
best of our ability at the moment but we need to put it much much higher level. And it's not taken
away from the work that guys do.
They do everything that they can. Bar there's always going to be someone else that needs
help. So without having people there isn't the help. Excellent.
Thank you very much. Hey.
Safeguarding Lead 2
Give me your name your role and kind of how long you've been OK.
My name is David Hunt. I'm the assistant vice principal and also Sancho on part of the
safeguarding team. I'm also the designated teacher for children in care and I live manage the past
or behaviour team as well.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse172
What can I say. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Pretty. Can you tell me if
you've held any other responsibilities in that it in the academy in the last few years.
I've been ahead of you. I was head of you right in year 9. And I've been at the academy
since we became the academy I joined the previous school in January 2010 and I think we
became. Dover Christchurch Academy in September 2010. That's right.
Okay okay. So can you tell me about your involvement encountering CSA in all of your
problems at cross as ahead of year. My initial role as a teacher.
You we are given safeguarded in set training and then we do have any concerns that we
make appropriate referrals and then information was then passed on. I now work with the team
that then deal with the. Referrals and then make the appropriate referrals and then make sure the
appropriate supports put in place for the young people. And then we might have to have
interviews with police or sit with the students once they have interviews with the social workers
or whoever else who gets involved. You could be wide range of different things might have to
attend meetings or do conference calls and we monitor the students how they get in on
behaviourally the attendance and if that tendency slips through Xenical the concerns then it
triggers additional support for them. We offer. We do have a Welby mentor on site who see
students from different age ranges and she's in one full day a week and one afternoon. We also
have access to the dog counselling service but also the different. Organizations that would
support students. Involved in.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse173
My support network that cooperate. Yeah I see that in many schools.
We've also got a store team as well so the different year groups have we'll have a member
of the safeguarding team allocated to them including Post 16 and then that person will become
the liaison. Well the point of contact for a young person but also the outside agency as well so
they've got something video that can go speak to the students know they they can go and if that
person is available they can speak to the members of staff as well because they know we have
designated blocks.
Is that something name that's been brought up because I haven't heard of that before. In
terms of how he does not use a 40 person for each year I mean that being the reason it hasn't
been quite name. Has. Come about because actually we have more staff now to be able to do it
whereas previously it was just.
A small group of people it was like this has come up so we've been getting dealt with but
we've expanded this academic year well we actually started last academic year. We've increased
our Pastore safeguarding team so one key increase those numbers that we've actually been DSL
trained. So the higher level training or the are or in our house and using the secret recruitment the
best of.
To the best I could do with it as well. So.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse174
We're trying to develop some because of the nature of the students and our intake. We've
got a high proportion of Pupil Premium students a lot higher than the national average. And
therefore that goes with that related associated issue. So we allocate money in time to the wellbeing of our students just as much increasingly so as we do for academic side because if we don't
offer for the well-being side the academic. Take place. So we're forward about a real shift and
focus on.
Gets here actually get killings you please.
Yes we have Mark Ball a PCI. So for the area to talk about. But even the social services
team within the area we do have an awful lot of dealings with them and even links with the local
primary schools with no transitions information gets shared and passed over as well. So we
establish the links. With the outside actually quite early if they are in place which then helps us
moving forward.
Thank you. So a lot of these questions are going to seem quite different because I had to
be police officers a lot of the time say some of the questions to be worded say differently if we
can try and apply it. Yes context and say well I put Jamie ask is what agency's where we are
deeply responsible for dealing with CSA. So you might have a very different perspective on that.
When a referral gets made it would be social. I'd give it global service. The social
services. But we know there were police involvement as well. Just. I'll be aware of what's going
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse175
on I've got referrals have been made but I'm not necessarily have all of the detail. And if the
normally if you will if it's a girl.
We always have a female member of staff do that referral. And a male liaison with the
outside agency started with that. So be somebody connected with the police or.
Services who they'll meet with.
We have been instances with young men actually. Which. Again parental requests and
the students request female members of stuff. Supported him. But I acted as a if they would hear
I was the second quarter call. So we've had the court cases from the different bits and bobs as
well to give evidence for that.
To have meetings. Yes channel meetings they take place but again within people go
people I line manage.
Their designated responsibilities so I've only become line manager of the past or
safeguarded team literally in the past two weeks. So we have had a number of channel referrals
within those two weeks. No neglect of social media. Young ladies young girls younger girls in
key stage 3 and. Older gentleman have been added to group chats.
Things going on. We're gonna to come back. Yeah. Yeah. What's wrong with our staff.
Am I right. So talk about your agency's and you kind of backward in terms of disciplinary. I
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse176
know it's a different setup fee than it would be in other areas but you still work with a range. Yep
face and say in terms of your perspective how well do you think CSC is actually understood to
say to what extent is that understood.
Amongst those who have had the training and are involved in the meetings. Yes it would.
They would do. But outside of that people don't really have a. Or all the members of staff don't
have a clue what that is. They've got preconceived ideas about what it is but they wouldn't really
know what happens and what goes on.
So the back that you mean that they kind of need a boyfriend model whereas the older
boys the younger girls and that kinda gets there.
So there's a loose understanding about what that is. But now because of GDP are as we
used to look up videos and mobile phones now we don't do that we have a policy where we don't
look at that that's directly if there's a report of indecent images et cetera we refer up to the police
shot away we do not engage. It was previously we would have taken snap. Screenshots and
evidence. We don't do that anymore. How are you finding that that works. We do it as a
safeguard for the staff because obviously with the information that we're given you're passing on
and sharing information obviously then the record. The guidelines are that you don't look at it
anymore. So therefore we don't know what we're passing on here. Which is a little bit tricky
because it's just been.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse177
This has happened since is that we have made the referrals there has actually been things
there. But we would whereas in the past would have known exactly what was there and what was
on there. We don't know any more. And with the social media but we find it a little bit more
frequent now. But the students record a little bit more guard because they know the police
involvement. So whereas before social media and the different apps people didn't really know
how they will work in particularly articles. But now we'll get more information about how they
work and how the young people use them. We do assemblies on that and. Censorship PHC
lessons on how to use social media responsibly. But we do have information from its foster
parents so obviously they're not aware of some of the things that exist out there and how they
operate. And also the legalities of. Because you read a group chart doesn't mean you can just go
and share that information. So more of our conversation with parents or informing them about
those things because what could happen. A student can come in make a disclosure of somebody
who's put something on a group chat. And then we report it to the police or tell them to report it
to the police. They didn't get in contact with different people on the telephone. And we've had
some quite irate parents come and go in I've been accused of Anonymous. Well that's not always
that's the police. You've technically if your son or daughter is in a group chat and then a fourth
on somebody else they have shared. So. But then we're damaged to deal with the fallout from
that. But again we just refer back to the police and if you've got to consider that you need to
speak to the police and if you want to you can get legal representation. And then it's normally
people I think commit community wide community in the country as a whole don't really
understand. The dos and don'ts with social media. Now actually you can get yourself in an awful
lot of trouble if you don't use it properly.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse178
That's population populated with fewer young people it's to educate them on the digital
creative aspects of it and the apparent indecent images of indecent images when they consent
you're not unusual.
And I think that's the thing where all young people struggle with because then they don't
understand why they can't do that because everyone else in their lives. They're autonomous and
they really want to tell everyone because we don't live in that society with this is something that
has really been jumped on which is really good. But again the young people have. Adapted and
adapted their usage for themselves. On the original intended purpose put the facilities there. It's
very difficult for us to control but we've also introduced a school a no phones policy. So join the
school day. The students I'm not allowed to have the phones out even a break at lunch time. OK.
Because we will find in the messages and bully and confrontations and the stirring of those
things plus the sharing of images or what's happening during the school day so we don't have
those issues en masse like we used to. They happen outside of school. That then makes what
makes it easier for us to one word because then everything's always outside of school and the
timings are we're on when they ask we ask when this happened outside of school hours.
Yeah. So it's made a mother like she said basically saving and cutting herself.
Yes well it's usually people but it has made a difference. It's been a couple of years ago
we had real issues with what everybody did. Lots of schools now introducing no foam policies
purely for that reason.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse179
How just of mind has to be a school teacher. How is that going. Because I'm not trying to
kick kids over I was a nightmare. Actually when I have a lot smoother than we thought it was
going to do we thought we were going to have protest nightmares but actually because it's
worked and the kids have seen it has stopped the bickering and the bullying within the school
they.
Have kind of gone along with it. There are some kids that use it as a watch which is
tricky because you switch depressing you've got. So. I'm not saying everything but they're not
using it for the thing and yet hang. Yeah. And that's the thing that's making a difference and I
think the kids appreciate it in a bit of a collective arrest and I want to go home or stop. Yeah.
There are school group chats not official but a lot of the students within the school will be in a
number of group chat. So if something happens everybody knows about it. But the flipside of
that is we find out about it very very quickly which allows us to deal with stuff and still isn't
really. Yeah. But it's a society that you know the age that we live in the technology the
computers that we use. We've got tracking systems on the computers for keywords and other bits
and bobs so we know they've got the blockages on certain sites as well.
That is.
OK. That's obviously linked to CSA. When we talk about county line to black gang is
very closely linked. So a lot of people the perception is ICAC is just young guys getting a
boyfriend.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse180
It's also boys as well and boys as well.
How does one of the things that we are aware of is actually two of our young men will
get involved in activities connected to the drugs but the sexual side of things.
The interesting thing was that when we invited young people to our university and all
female every single one of them was female and I was delivering the lesson and stuff and I was
like oh I don't have to you about how boys can be these 10 year old girls sat in front of me. So
it's about how to engage that and cross that line here.
It's quite tricky but again we have a copy when I'm in a group perhaps we know
somebody else who was a no go tell you but they did have a talk about the. We don't have an
awful lot of ethnic diversity here. We are predominantly white working class.
But we do open to students who are from ethnic backgrounds ESL. But actually the
second third generation. Just. Was. Down together. So in terms of female mutilation and forced
marriage arranged marriage we have. We would if you put a new person was I mean we would
know of those issues with her we would know about it. But again it's this one person.
Keep. Keep it out.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse181
But again the live with it within the community. You know prostitution in the area.
There's an no lot jobs in the area. These young people will have parents who are involved in
those either one of those things or will know people of that.
So it's not news to the desensitised to it but it's not a line out the ordinary way from this
area how my partner came to just call it what it was like in my life. It's been the same. Yeah it's
highway. Yeah.
And then what we're finding is that different generations of people are coming down for
example from Nepal kind of putting into place new presidents which then brings about its own
mix and things and that's why we get the county line stuff. And you look done it direct rates
coming down the tracks coming from London the children's homes in the area as well.
It's all encompassing you can't pick out one thing it's all contributors to it saying we do
that but some pops where we know the young people who are children in care but aren't in foster
placements or in like secured housing and also residential. Those are the young people that know
most because the.
They voted on every side of this game.
We've only got to the moment one of them. He's heavily involved in. And. It was.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse182
Identified. Yes we we knew and we said pretty cold retaining a placement. It was just like
as soon as this happens he will. Hustle up and unfortunately.
He's on a watch list anyway. He's being.
Seen At that pace. We'll come to that. I think I'm going to use that one and say we talked
about the extent of that which is kind of the nature of it in your area and understanding. What are
your personal feelings on the nature and the extent of it when you actually work in it. You work
with children every day you saying. I think there's a hell of a lot more that goes on than what we
know about. Because I think all young people.
Are very switched on and I think that people involved in a very switched on to the
triggers or the watch things and that the information's out there. I think they're very guarded
which makes it really tricky. So the normal signs of what you look out for etc. is actually not that
might not necessarily be displayed those anymore. Which makes it very very tricky. But our
young people are very very good at sharing information they've got concerns about their friends
or peers. They will let us know.
Which is how the vast majority time we find out is it so it's not necessary your
contemplation assessment.
Again these young people they know if they don't attend school we've got two or three
people who will be followed and I'll ask him what's going on. So they will attend.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse183
And they'll have good attendance. They'll look well caps or they'll look how they
normally look. The work lessons they won't stand out. And that's the thing in the east and the not
being different forces themselves but actually when.
The kids pass on their concerns and then we go and dig into it.
So what kind of concerns with the students come to you about that is not hanging around
with them anymore. Them hanging around with older people undesirables stuff post. On staff to
arrange to meet with them but then not see them in a different part of town and not do thing
within.
Within the town. It's not that big but there's different areas and if you're in not your area.
So be commented on what they do need all the time of day accept etc. so that then forms a
timeline and a bit of a link to go. While we also said last night. What's going on. Who are you
staying with and so on so forth. Some of our young people the parents work on the boats.
Night shifts at the port. But if they're over 13 about themselves. And. That's when things
can happen.
Again. I think that's some specifics later.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse184
And so when we talk about your area had there been any like socio demographic trends
are you seeing kind of a rise in it in the last few years. If anything happens when looking for
anything changed.
Only within the seats with the middle with that it really brought it home light literally
brought it in here. But. Within. Less than four months all of those individuals who were removed
to a sense approved who moved out of area some were put into care and they were moved to
different parts of the county. Again even this past two weeks we've had we've had some incidents
but they're not connected with that. Something completely separate and it could just happen on
any particular day particular people. They start hanging out. So all year seven girls at the
moment coming towards the end of the year. Some of them were given a little bit more. Freedom
because the weather's improved the state out there later and then suddenly we start in an instance
where the things are happening because they're out and about in places where they were
previously. But I guess that's not a snob trying to know if our society. Changes. Yeah that's a
good. But it was literally within the area has it been affected by Brexit has it been any mass
unemployment here. No.
Not yet. I'll come back to your time and then I I see our question again. So we have.
A hell of a lot of jobs in the area. Said Intel you did mention Brexit and it's something
that I haven't paid my questions but it is something I'm looking at in terms of the unrest because I
live in the area just outside and I feel that where it's changed in the last 10 years people are more
open overtly.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse185
Racist prepared to. I think people are prepared to have a go. Some have got different
opinions to you politically or socially or whatever religiously. So it's open season at the moment.
People are doing that. There's no filter anymore. You've got opinion you give it and. People think
they're entitled. So were we in use at the moment the entitlement. Why should we have been you
can't do this to me. The governments this they sit there so therefore any authority figures don't
need to be respected. You don't believe what I say or you can't tell me what to do. Yes that's
definitely increased over the past couple years. But again because of our demographic we don't
have a large ethnic. Grouping. If somebody did make a comment it would be a collective. You're
out of order. Because they're one of us. Yeah but if they're out so I'm not saying it doesn't happen
outside within here. We we don't know they got here. Yeah yeah. But even with the kids they
wouldn't. They don't do it. If you were at college you're one of those regardless of where you are.
With sexual or sexuality you know that type of stuff as well. Gender Fluidity we spoke about
those things they were all pretty tolerant and understanding these just they just keep to
themselves. But it just goes you go over there.
Yeah it's tricky.
The only thing that really brings more together is the smoke. I think that's been since the
dawn of death. Yeah that's what I said when I was at school in here is going to ask you the same
thing every smoked regardless of who you think Greece should be.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse186
Something's changed. Okay. So we talked about that. Last year I kind of if you think
there's been an increase and you said that you think there's a lot of it is unknown. Yeah. Do you
think it's actually increasing potential victims in the last few years.
Possibly. I would say so. I think within the Dover area there was a grooming gang wasn't
there a couple of years ago out of one of the kebab shops I think. But from that point. So I think
before that there wasn't much awareness of it at all. What it really brought is local media
particularly where those things were introduced within the area to keep. There was more
emphasis put on.
CSA. So when you say that the eating is increasing victim do you think that is a case of is
where there's more awareness now as opposed to an increase in actual or potential victims. Yeah
I think you're more human we're all more knowledgeable now we're more educated about how
we are better trained. Yeah. And so because of that they will have increased because more
things. Yes. Things get picked this is the issue that we've had of having intensive research. We
don't have any like prior data because no one really knew about it only what it was.
So there will be a thing within the area that if you go down folks and road what a slow
box are that's where their grooming goes and we want to. Yeah. So there is a bit of that we race
is always mixed in together.
Equally when we talk about it. Yes.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse187
Yeah. It's put for roads we have. Very few students of families from those it will not from
those areas but ethnic background. So again it's I'm not part of that but we know. Are you more
strict with the girls from disadvantaged backgrounds or. From. Parents who have been ill or
separated. Yeah.
I mean it's an intensive yes. We care about what schools think I see that if you're because
you're the lame cause.
We're on the Hill. I so we're WHITFIELD So the other side of town you've got Tyler
humble. That's how a harmless area. That's our stuff. Takes us to college for the Arts next door
but we've also got two grammar schools right next door.
So that is the boys grammar school and you've got the girls grammar school down the
road but next to the gerbil round the corner from the Girls Grammar School is a Catholic school
and that's what the Slovakian students predominately go because of their role is falling because
the local community don't want to attend their attending.
It's interesting because I am contacted by the grammar schools and I got toolkit which I
think we don't have that problem here. So we haven't been out.
And I saw a friend like any of his children has this problem that there are young people at
the grammar schools in this area who come from. Will come from the states that just passed the
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse188
Dover Test. So the demographic you probably find the proportion of P P students free school
meals up both for those boys and girls.
Probably a lot higher than say come along to boys and girls. BOB CORKER It's pretty
just physically.
This is where they take a choose from and I.
Well we have to have the same thing in Fanny as well because when buy where it is. And
George is going run it and then we'll be hombre Academy and we have to split them. But if one
school denies that they've got a problem it's not because I'm not doing any good value. So we're
gonna move on from that. So we talked about your perceptions and I'm not going to ask you
about in terms of offending or gang activity because that's what you're hearing. You speak about
what you know about. We'll leave that one. See your response. So in terms of your school you
speculate about how you guys tackle CSA in your perspective do you think it's effective.
In terms of getting support make your reports. Yes. Yes.
Yeah. Same kind of tackling says.
Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Perfect. And do you have any examples of successes.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse189
It's not. I don't know. Well let go girl. Girls who were made referrals for whatever they
were involved in it stopped. And they continued to attend to the need. To finish their education.
But that's. In terms of the support that they got from me outside. You see we continue to support
them within school. So if they were.
Feeling down or feeling emotional it was going back up then they would come and that
speeches would make allowances accommodations for them they could work in a separate room.
We have a learning support centre. We could go and have access to that if they want to go and
speak with their mentor. They could go and have access to the mentor has it when they need it.
We've got a young lady at the moment in year 10. It was a.
Family friend that it had assaulted her and she not only sees that family friend anymore.
She's still attending school. She's happy. She goes for. Therapy sessions to. Go to counselling.
We're not here she has them offsite. She struggled with it. She has but days when. Just things just
trigger different things or. Somebody. I don't know makes not innocuous comment or somebody
looks like him. We've had it before when parents or delivery people come on site that she
thought it was him and another bit of meltdown. That was a gun crime thing you've shut up.
She'd been in a couple of occasions this guy had done it and we brought it to the parents attention
and we made the referral. So they stopped training it's a lapse processes.
Yeah yeah yeah.
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What we're getting from the disclosure was made or the conversation that we made it
before we got referrals and it went through the process. Now.
I will ask you about sometimes it maybe didn't work. Yeah for sure one of the girls he got
into the newspaper.
So but that wasn't. That was the parent. Right. And then we obviously couldn't contain.
So that we didn't want people to know about it. It's just by containing that information then it
wouldn't have the other students go in. Are you okay or you wouldn't be scared grass. Yeah
which made it very very tricky. It's out that we can we can do to contain that which again with
the worst thing was the press contacted us. And said we're going to we've got this story wrong
with it. And we asked them not to. They said they weren't. And they needed it.
Yeah. So. You got out in the open. But how did you deal with that scum.
We didn't make a press release because we didn't want to add any more fuel to it request
from the student and we didn't want to anyway. And we dealt with the phone calls were dealt
with by the teacher. And again we didn't have any special assemblies to talk about it because the
young people. Interpret things in a different way or any. So if any comments were made to her
that those individuals were picked up. And they were met then with.
Another 50 that way. Yes.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse191
Okay. So when you talk about multiagency it means different take. Have you got any.
Do you have any issues in terms of easy with other agencies social workers police social
workers it's sometimes very difficult to get hold of dependent on the social worker. Obviously
we're half a total of four. Yeah. So so it is quite tricky sometimes going over again the police
officers if they're not on work in those days of holiday is how passes on what gets given the
caseload sometimes that doesn't always get passed on or shared. And different ways of working
within the framework that they work within.
The issue. In terms of sharing information.
No this is just the time of getting information. I think if they're working they'll say if
they're not they're not. Whereas. We how we operate even though it's not particularly brewing
because we've got mobile phones and you've got school phones and emails we can send
correspondence instantly whereas they don't work that way.
Not to do this here but within the timeframes of those we could only keep the children
there for so long before the staff need to go home for their children or whatever they've got their
responsibilities. And we can't physically go around to their houses to make sure. All right.
So what happens at that point if you can't get hold of a social worker and it's a family
agenda that would get a contact with the duty team and then they would then send representative
down although the police or the PCR. So it will come up within an hour. So we'll get that. Maybe
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it's just the it's just just the time and then it's that. Just in the personal information go What's
going on. It's like Well can't. Go into it again and that's another thing. But this is very rare.
And when you when we talk about that and we said about how many since the 80s that
you kind of line manage people the guy today. Do you get invited regularly.
Are you on that. Yes. Yes. It's just like there's been a change in line management so the
people that will go to the channel me to that are still the same people just the person overseas
you know is different. It's not me. So they'll be a monthly term later whenever there'll be every
six weeks. What happens if something happens then they'll get five of those. If you meet an
undertaker he'll be able with that and a lot more detail because you'll be dealing with those with
that side of things. So.
I can't physically be everywhere but that's his job. So he does it so. Easily you know. And
we are nearly done by the way the way I.
I know you and I can't say I'll kind of jump ahead when we talk about your idea. Well
how would you deal with CSI and a CSA outside of schools however you wanted to get at. What
would you do as a social problem. Well that's times. Is the amount of people being available to
deal with incidents.
The support counselling that goes with it. It's the initial incident for us making a referral
or somebody pick it up. Yeah that's great. But for the individual. That was what my concerned
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about how quickly things get put in place to support them and around. How it deals with the
counselling and dealing with what's going on. That's my concern because when they come into
school they know that we know. We're all okay we've done our. Best though. So it's like well
what's it done. Well it still needs that you lot are all okay in the kid. So then I must. Say. More
about it. Yeah. That that stuff does for me and even for the staff. You know it is. It's unsettling as
these things have offered for them so that's a purely well-being thing for those if certain people
to pick these things up all the time and you deal with X Y every everything and you've known a
student from you you've seen them grow up and when that happens that's difficult. But also we
have. A lot of our stuff come from this area.
So it's very personal. Which makes it difficult so they could be shopping and it could be
a.
Potential clash or allegations made. Keep it confidentiality make sure the right people
involved. Again that is what we are perps experience of the press not helping didn't help the
young person the parents disclosed it.
It doesn't help. But again we know the task force involved around the stuff with the sea
up CSC not large enough that's all that HP most of the primary school level. For those young
people.
What's your take.
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What would you take if you if you were saying that they need a sad reason to be aware of
it and the young people that top people have been talked to. It's like with drugs getting hooked
earlier involved in it. And again you know the younger they are the more open are also things as
well but it's the the awareness of it the ten eleven year olds were very very switched on Even
nine year olds are as well. And within the communities that they live in. Stuff happens.
Can I try to you a little bit more and I just say when we talk a bit more in-depth we talk
about how we help children deal with it.
I guess is making them know look out for. But you understand what it is because they
might have Uncle Barry who comes around and. Or takes him off somewhere or auntie so-and-so
comes over those things up. But it just becomes a norm for them to that desensitised to it is like
smoking pot. Our kids think because parents and grandparents do it. That's what you do. You
drink alcohol or you whatever that is what they perceive to be acceptable and they go out of a
drink. Comebacks must house or beat your wife beat the kids. That's what men do. All women
do whatever. But to actually have that go into private schools have the workshops. What this is
for is of these things have to be in about the bodies and the things they're more switched on.
What we give them credit for. And it starts having workshops in schools make them aware
giving them phone numbers having access to people within a school having a designated person
that they know that can go on speech about these things or having outside people come in and
deal with clinics. We have a PCI sewed up comes in and sits in there on a Thursday. And the
kids can go and talk to him and they'll discuss things with them or he'll have a list of kids who
have been seen within the area or watch list and they can go and have a chat. It's education make
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse195
them be aware of what it is. Having an app on a phone telephone numbers forever but the thing
is. A lot of these kids don't have access to social media. They all have internet in the house. Don't
have mobile phones. Not every kid has a mobile phone in the school. So they don't have access
to stuff they can't phone it might be a house phone in there anymore they can't phone anybody.
They're not there on public telephones readily available anymore. They want any money they got
a phone line so they got the stove. So actually the perception is all going up when you can get
your advice. You know having.
One of the things that we're coming up against is going to stir opposition between
victimization say creates victims all my saying to them Don't be in this situation don't do this
when it's put the emphasis on them is an actual fact. What we want in a case a resilience and how
to be resilient to these things and to research produced peer pressure I'm assigned equally
teaching our young people that it's not okay to do that if they are drawn into a grieving tsunami
and telling them how that they can be aware other players can be aware of that and then identify
that that needs to be done. And again the workshops that we've had in school they've been
around.
Come off. I think it was early help or the people's education.
Education people. I don't think it was really held up or offshoot of. The court porch light
over I know they came in and did this stuff but it was a bit full on. And there are there were lots
of things that came out. Because it triggers kids get upset emotional snotty comments come out
because Do the kids all know what happened in.
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It's interesting so the support alongside that is obviously really important and you'll see
that firsthand. Is there anything else you'd like to talk about.
Early Help and Ed. CSE Team
KM All right. So I'll just place that here Now as I said you're not putting your name on
any of these recordings. What is if I may ask your age please just so that we can have a nice
demographic section in the paper.
Interviewee 61.
KM Thank you very much. And what is your general role.
Interviewee I'm. A link person with health and education services the CSE team.
KM And I want to ask you how long you've been working for the organization. I think a
better.
Interviewee Which organization are we talking about?
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KM Yes thats exactly the point
Interviewee This team I've been in it since it was set out three and a bit years ago. The
official launch was December. 2000. And. 15. But we were operating a bit before that. Yeah. So
I joined the team in October 15. OK. But I've been working for KCCI for. Over five years five
and a half years.
KM Right. So question number one could you please summarize sort of your background
in this specific agency. So as part of this team and in what way you actually deal with the
problem of CSE.
Interviewee Right. My background. I came into the team from being erm.. a CAF
coordinator so making assessments about the most appropriate support for families who fall in
between universal services and erm..specialist Social Services. So..that was what I had been
doing erm..but I've also had experience as a as a teacher and head teacher and erm... Working in
in the voluntary sector with vulnerable people and being a manager within the voluntary sector.
Prior to joining KCC. So I have a sort of a bit of a broader perspective of vulnerable people erm..
er.. vulnerable children and a knowledge of how schools operate and how erm.. how Early Help
operates so that seemed to be a sort of a good range of things that I could add to a multiagency
team. So my role within the team is sort of three parts. So one part is researching erm.. names
that come in. So mainly young people who are reported to us so as being at risk from some
reason to CSE. Erm..I have access to a number of education erm.. and Early help and social
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services and Youth Justice databases so I can actually do part of that information gathering pull
out the. Relevant information and share that with with colleagues so that we can get. A holistic
picture of what's going on for that young person. So that's one part of what I do erm..another part
is having worked in this setting and having read relevant research and so on I advise colleagues
from Early help or from schools should they contact the team looking for advice erm.. and I
liaise with colleagues so I have erm.. I ask early help workers to send in information if they have
any concerns and I feedback to them erm.. and I raise with the team young people's names if that
seems to be appropriate. Sometimes the concerns are not CSE and we move on erm..but why
they are indicative of CSe or there are serious concerns about that young person then obviously
that gets fed into the team. Erm..and then the third part is erm awareness raising. So I there's a
number of us within the team that have a sort of an awareness raising element to our job. So I go
and talk to schools about CSE about this sort of profile of CSE in Kent and Medway and how to
pass this information How to recognise CSE and then passing information into the team. I also
do that for Early help.
KM Right.
Interviewee That's the other side of my remit.
KM That's a lot of responsibility.
Interviewee No it's not a lot of responsible. It's just it's it makes for an interesting job.
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KM Let's get it right. Next question is No I don't think really. Appropriate sort for your
specific job. It asks what agencies in your geographical area. Do you believe to be responsible
for dealing with CSE. But I see it as a bit of a tricky question here but let's give it a go if you can.
Interviewee Well it depends on what you mean by dealing with CSE. I think all of us
have a responsibility. That's why. I think a multi agency colocated team is such a powerful tool.
Because..those of us in...with links to only help in education and erm.. those sorts of areas have
information that may not be available to other people. We have experience we are able to advise
people working in those fields in a way that a police officer.. would not. So you know.. health
and mental health services for young people. The erm.. Early Help social services..education.
We've all got a role to play police in in looking out for young people who may be at risk and
actually doing something to redirect them perhaps or..erm..i f they are actually involved to to try
and support them and help them get out and hopefully lead to a prosecution ultimately. If so I
think we're all responsible... and then that's the same..hat's why I think it multiagency team is
such a good idea.
KM Sort of building onto that, as you quite rightly said it's kind of a responsibility of
everyone.. to be looking into CSE and sort of trying to trying to help they're both kind of probing
question..how well do you think the nature outside of the extent of CSE is actually understood by
agencies by the police and by others as well.
Interviewee I think it's very mixed..but then I suppose thats.. that. ..applies to all things
in life doesnt it? That if you've actually experienced it if you've seen the impact on young people
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of CSE ..erm... If you've researched what's been going on for those young people and then there
are you have a higher level of awareness erm..one of the things that.. that's obvious when you
look at the mapping of CSE , reports of CSE type activity and this team is that the areas in North
Kent and Medway and in Thanet, where when we first found our own sort of local CSE... There.
figures have always been high and I think part of that is because the professionals working in
those areas have known for years before our team was even put in place been seeing it and trying
to do something about it. So their awareness is higher erm..then other areas I think it's it's patchy
and it's patchy in schools. I think sometimes the attitude of schools is a bit disappointing erm..
because they hope that if they don't look too hard it will go away. Erm..and I think that applies to
it very much depends on how forward looking the management of the school is. Those that think
it's part of their pastoral role to to actually. Protect Children safeguard children in that way erm..
and to stick with it. You know there's lots of schools that take that attitude and they will work
with it, a young person no matter how difficult the trauma that they've experienced makes them
the school sticks with them and there's good support networks in the school and they look for
other agencies that come out to that support from externally and they report incidents. And then
you have other schools that say "Okay we're faced with a challenge" Well either pretend it
doesn't exist. Or we'll give it to somebody else. And we will exclude that...young person...and by
that we won't o have any CSE... or. other forms of exploitation in our school because we got rid
of them. So. I think that's what it.
KM Yes, what do you think can be done in that respect. Because of course we don't have
a magical wand where everybody will take it seriously but what do you think should be done in
that environment.
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Interviewee I think that's why we've always had a in the makeup of this team. We've
always had an awareness raising element that goes across all of the agencies that contribute to
the team. So you know there's a there's a police colleague raising awareness within the police and
making sure that the police understand what they're seeing and why it's different from.. other
..sexual activity in youngsters. And the same things happening in health and the same things
happening in social services Early help that any education... so. I think that's err an important
thing for us to hang on to that erm..those people who. Have seen what's happening in Kent are
making sure that other people are aware of it. Sharing that information and giving positive
options to people for how they can actually deal with it. I've lost track of er..what I was saying.
KM Yes. So to what can be done in terms of really having a more I guess consistent
approach to this.
Interviewee I think the other thing is that..we use this this sort of the carrot and the stick
to a certain extent. I think inspection regimes whether they be Ofsted or other inspection regimes
that they take that seriously and then they do actually look to see what's going on instead of just
skimming over the surface as can happen on occasions erm.. and I think that Ofsted to be fair to
them I'm not a great fan ofsted personally... but to be fair to them when they came in and
inspected what we were doing they did have a fairly rigorous look at plotting young people
through that process and looking to see what support was put in place for them. So I think that's
the other side of that same coin so those schools for example that I was mentioning
earlier...should be held to account for an attitude that is not supportive of young people.. and..the
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse202
obvious way to do that is is through ofsted because that applies to them. But again other agencies
it would be their particular inspection regimes and I think again that has to be joined up
multiagency approach.
KM Just the probe that a little bit especially in the in the school context. We've been sort
of finding in not finding also so hearing through the grapevine somewhere that one of the reasons
why schools don't really engage maybe with CSE as much as they should do is because they're
they're trying to kind of keep their reputation intact. So what you were saying about sort of
shoving it somewhere else but how do you think that sort of thing can be overcome. Because if
you go to that sort of a school you can say I want to teach you about CSE but...
Interviewee All the awareness raising that I do is voluntary...the schools... I do contact
schools but I don't always get positive response....and there are some schools that I would dearly
like to get into and talk to the staff er.. but. I can do it with the cooperation of the management
team within that school... erm..and that's why I said about the carrot and the stick. There are most
definitely schools that are looking to protect their reputation. My challenge to them is...tactfully
as tactfully as possible but it is you know which is going to damage your reputation more, to be
known as the school that is proactively trying to manage any instance of CSE or..CSE related
activity within your walls...and that you take a responsible attitude to managing it or taking the
out of the bad publicity that would be associated with. something being uncovered... and it found
that you were more interested in protecting your reputation than protecting your children...erm..
But I did it a little bit more time than that... But I would simply say if you know that... I've... I
have encountered sort of odd things happening like speaking to someone within the school about
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coming and talking to them which has then been followed by a cancellation because..when
they've spoken to somebody higher up..and I'm presuming that they were not so keen to have me
come in and talk to them.. erm.. and I..personally as a former head teacher of primary school I
find it quite insupportable to take that attitude but. I think it's chip away.
KM There's only as much as you can do. Personally.
Interviewee I think if you had if the majority of schools are responding in a more
positive way more supportive way than other schools will come in line. But there will be some
that take the easy way out.
KM All right. So speaking more generally about CSE based on your experiences and the
work you do. What are your current personal views on the nature and extent of CSE within Kent.
Interviewee I think and I think we've probably got a lot more gang related CSE than we
think we have. Because... there are lots of groups not necessarily as formal as a gang. But there
are certainly lots of groups that appear to be involved in the grooming of quite young children.
You know sort of ten eleven twelve... er. and I also think that there is this sort of mentality
within that sort of grooming network that saying it's okay and everybody has sex... doesnt matter
that youre 12 13 14...that's normal erm.. and...that's that's quite a worrying thing and I think that's
sort of even if it's not being used to technically exploit the young people the fact that they are in
among all of the other things that grooming them for.. theyre influencing their views on things
and um and sexual relations and the nature of positive relationship well they're not positive....of
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the nature of relationships. I think that's that's quite worrying that we have...and I.. it's something
that I say to every school that I go into..we have CSE in every part of Kent.. and I suspect that in
some areas it's a lack of awareness and a lack of existence of CSE all areas of Kent... no matter
how leafy and rich they may appear to have got areas of deprivation where vulnerable people
live and where vulnerable children live. And...And that even in a leafy rich suburb there are
vulnerable children who are there because maybe their parents are too busy doing other things
than simply...spending time with their children....and I've seen some cases that I've
researched..for the team...you know a bad crime that would not immediately scream out to you...
I mean there are obviously key indicators like missing episodes and erm and... llooked after
children and...low income families and domestic abuse and all of those sorts things are all...flags
if you like that say you know there might be something going on here that is eroding that young
person's view of what a healthy relationship is.. but..you know that can also happen in a
household that on the surface.. is lovely...and. you. know. ..not in the least bit deprived. It doesn't
have to those indicators don't have to be there for a child to be sexually exploited. So I think
there's probably more going on than even we've we've touched on...and I think one of the things
that this team has been very successful at is getting a much clearer picture of what's going
on..erm..most of it's to do with relationship... I'm also beginning to wonder how much peer on
peer type exploitation is going on because some of the cases that we've looked at recently you
have children who are very close in age and so we wouldn't be seeing that as the boyfriend
model which has always been our biggest. proportion...inappropriate relationships. But we're
now we're also seeing..a number of cases where those youngsters are very close in age...and you
know you've got a... 14 year old girl with a 15 or 16 year old boyfriend and then nobody would
be raising any flags about that on a normal.. basis. But there is sometimes a feeling that that is an
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse205
exploitative relationship. So... I think we don't see it. And the thing that worries me most that we
don't see is CSE within boys. Because we have always been way way way below our profile.
Problem profile is always saying that we have 10 to 12 percent...boys...and yet all that sort of
national research is saying 25 to 33 percent. And that's probably just underreported as
well...so..the fact that we've always been between 10 and 12 percent is has always niggled away
at the back of my mind.
KM There you have answered some of my other questions already which is great as
though we have spoken about some of the set of issues which which surround CSE and which
have to deal with CSE... So you have mentioned gangs for example. Are there any other sort of
new things that are coming up which you feel impact on levels of CSE or anything like that.
Interviewee I don't think there's anything. That I would say is new. I mean they're sort
of. Typical models that..you'll find in all the research about CSE.... are the ones that we are
seeing here. We've had instances..erm.. in fact Lakeland and Mercy are those two operations that
start the whole ball rolling as far as Medway were concerned included familial..exploitation.
We've we've always had lots of inappropriate relationships. Sort of boyfriend girlfriend
model...we've had gang related CSE.. we've certainly although our team doesn't specifically deal
with it although we sometimes support that information gathering. The online CSE I mean there's
loads and loads and loads of that and the and the victims are getting younger and younger and
younger...I see younger and younger people walk around with smartphones...and play games on
them that bring them into contact with the outside world in a way yes... So you know I think all
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse206
of those sorts of models that you see we see here but I don't think I don't think there's anything
particularly new in any of that.
KM Right. So there isn't really because quite a lot of the times in literature you would see
that a certain new trend within criminality more generally would impact on CSE and vice versa
as well sometimes. So that's not really quite. What you're seeing here.
Interviewee I think we've always seen a mix. Perhaps we're seeing more of a sequence of
events. Nature of it the nature of it. But I haven't heard of any new model. Yes. Let's put it that
way. Yeah. Now we've talked about you know all of those different models and trafficking... I've
worked with asylum seekers and refugees from those in the voluntary sector and I'd seen
trafficking and I think it's wonderful to see how much more aware we are now as we were..back
in... the early thousands from 2000 to 2005. I was working with asylum seekers in Kent and we
were only beginning to wake up to the fact that you know there was a reason why some people
just disappeared from our accommodation and almost instantly. So I think there's an increasing
awareness but I'm not aware..... I think gangs criminal exploitation. Yeah. The the the way in
which the criminals operate may change to avoid detection etc. .but I don't think the exploitation
changes.
KM Right. Yeah. And we've spoken a bit about the side of the demographics of the
potential victims. What about the demographics of the potential perpetrators. What's that look
like.
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Interviewee Well for karma...I keep thinking of the obvious thing in the Addams Family.
Tuesday...Tuesday or Wednesday Wednesday. The daughter of the Addams family was asked
what she was going to a Halloween party as and she said she was going as a psychopath.
Because they looked like everybody else. And I think to me that's the profile of a CSE
perpetrator. They can be anybody they can be especially you know the sort of the online..type of
grooming that sort of...thing. Indecent imagery that all of that sort of thing can be really
respectable and nice upstanding pillars of society. It's easy to say no it falls into. One particular
racial group or..one particular section of society you know it's always gonna be..from the poorer
and more deprived ends of society but that's not the case. We've had people from all walks of
life. Come to our notice as perpetrators and all across the county obviously because the victims
are spread all over the county so they can be anybody. We have some of our investigations have
had to focus on particular groups. And we have one investigation at the moment that involves
unaccompanied asylum seeking children who are in transition to a pathway plan into adult
services and.. the pattern that group of perpetrators. A very clear distinct group..and. We have to
respond we have to acknowledge that..but at the same time that doesn't mean that people from
that particular ethnic group are more likely to be offenders erm.. you know..sort of spread. It just
happens to be that particular investigation in the same way as operation lakeland focused quite a
lot on the Roma community. This is a community in this particular case. So. Yes I guess it it's
just for that particular group that..put themselves together... I mean we have..we've come across
the gang related CSE. It's quite often Afro Caribbean groups, especially the ones that come down
from from some of the London gangs.. that are operating in Kent. So.. but. you know the next
person that you pick up...researching...White Anglo-Saxon working at a fast food restaurant...you
know..
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse208
KM Right moving on slightly from sort of perceptions of CSE towards responses. So you
are a part of a multiagency team so rather than asking you whether we should be working with
other agencies I'd rephrase that for you to how do you actually find it working in a multi agency
team on this side of a problem.
Interviewee I think if there was a move away from multi agency teams that would be a
very very retrograde step. And I also think as part of a multi co-located team that has also been
quite significant in that the speed at which information can be shared can be lightning fast. We've
had some stuff come in in the morning and I picked up on calls that have come into the call
centre.. erm..somebody asked the question do we know anything about this person...and we are
all sort of looking at stuff at the same time. There's no there's no delay. We can track people
down we can sort of..try and identify people. We've had a stuff come in in the morning and by
the end that doesn't identify the victim and doesn't have identify any associates but by detective
work with all the different agencies involved we've ended up end of the day having them being
fairly certain who the victim is where they live who their contacts are how they got drawn into it
in the first place erm..and that's really exciting to work and doesn'talways happen like that. [Of
course]. Sometimes it helps sometimes it's a lot slower but it's the fact that we've all got our own
little bits that can contribute. You know you've got the police researchers coming up with an
exciting stuff from Facebook and from open access stuff. ..that's [yeah] and the internet and
you've got the health person saying well we did have a 14 year old girl...that sort of fits in with
that...you know there was an incident reported by..you know...and...by the end of the day it's all
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been put together and that's happened on quite a number of occasions over the last three and half
years.
KM And do you think that it works that way. ..It's a good thing that there's this sort of
one centralized multiagency team on a county level because I do know that there's lots of you
know localized initiatives and you know like that Thanet have their own task force. You know
all of that sort of stuff.
Interviewee Yeah I've been asked my opinion on that and I know that there's quite there's
quite a discussion going on locally and nationally as to whether...erm two things whether...colocated central team is the best way of managing situations...or. whether you know focusing on
sexual exploitation rather than child exploitation..is the way to go. Personally... I feel it is the
way to go because criminal exploitation is so broad that I think that the things that led to you
know the rather rooms the Rochdales the Newcastles the Oxfords all of those sort of cases that
led to teams like this being set up.. part of the problem was that we weren't seeing what was right
there in front of our noses because we weren't focusing on the idea that this might be sexual
exploitation and not just girls involving themselves in risky behavior...you know...that. and...to
go back to a point where we're sort of...broadening that focus again I think the sexual element
will get swallowed up in other stuff. [Yeah] I'm not always in step with people and that is my
personal opinion. Yeah of course I have but I do think that that sort of whole multiagency thing
is very very important...and I think a central team rather than all the sort of little parts you have a
central picture...which means...that the local people are being informed about stuff that they're
not aware of that is outside that local area...and ideally they should also be feeding stuff into the
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centre so that we get the benefits of their local knowledge...and have been lots of exciting things
done in the Margate task force. And the MSETS the missing child exploitation teams that have
been sent out also do lots of...very good stuff. But I do feel that sometimes it's not coming into
the century. [Yeah of course]. ..and it's not my role to look into why that is. But that's the danger
that local information stays local. And then that damages our overall picture. Yeah. And I think
it's the overall picture that helps us to actually make sure that everybody is informed.
KM Yeah. You have identified a set of successes of multiagency work so you know
speed of communication all of those sort of things. What do you feel like the biggest challenges
though.
Interviewee I think we still sort of live in our silos to a certain extent. I think it's been
really nice. I did have. Previous experience of working in a multiagency team that. When I was
in the voluntary sector that that drew together police health social services erm..voluntary Sector
organizations all together under..one Umbrella. And you know...being in this team you sort of
feel the advantages again of that erm..cooperation. But at the same time I'm not a police person.
My head, I don't think like a police person. And I respect my colleagues a great deal but
they're..sometimes their thought process that are being channeled. In the same thing with my
central services colleagues. I'm a bit a bit of a softy really. And and I would I would intervene
more times than is allowed by the criteria that are imposed by having to having to..eek out your
resources. [Yes]. And..and so you have guidelines as to when you can intervene when you can't
intervene. I would intervene at a much earlier level. Personally I think that's where. That can be
sometimes a bit of friction. I have said yes. I've raised stuff about a young person that I've
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researched and I feel quite passionately that. We should be doing thing with that young person
and looking into this sort of the people that are influencing and and in my view exploiting that
young person when it's been looked at by the broader attainments here. I'm. Sorry we don't have
the resources to do that. Yes. And that's frustrating at times..but..there will always be
disappointments ..and I think that's one of the address the drawbacks that you know sometimes
you have to use somebody else's criteria to make a decision that would not be the one that you
can make yourself.
KM Right. Kind of actually connecting up to that is what about resourcing. So you'll find
yourself in quite a unique position because this is sort of a centralized team and you know it was
set up with a certain purpose so you do have some resources that maybe some other people don't
have. But do you think there are enough resources being put into CSE.
Interviewee No. So straight forward. I think..one of what the team has shown over the
you know particularly the analytical side of the team has shown is that there is a lot more CSE
going on in Kent and Medway than we thought it was five years ago when those big operations
were in full swing. And to a certain extent while it's wonderful to have this team and it to be
resourced by all the different agencies that have fed into it we're still working on a
shoestring...erm..you know my [ANONYMOUS].. that'll have to be edited I suppose. My
particular post I'm the only one and they fund my salary and and very little else.. so..you know.
That's it's I'm really happy that they do fund that post and it is a measure of their
commitment...but... nevertheless. Nevertheless you know that the level of funding is there but it's
not generous. [Yes]. And I think this side of..what we do..that... really could be strengthened a
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huge amount is actually proactively going out and doing preventative work... we don't do that we
do awareness raising but we're not being there before things start going wrong...and I think. that
element of doing our own research and around what will make a difference what will stop
youngsters going down that train in the first place..er..what positive activities are going to help
prevent that.that...sort of slide. [Right.] I don't think we're doing enough of that..and I don't think
we do enough follow on either in terms that young people put themselves on the line when they
cooperate with our team..and in the end you know all we can do is try and prosecute and if we
don't have enough evidence to prosecute we offer what support we can. But I think I'd like to see
that being better funded..that's sort of what do you do with people who are on the fringes of CSE
as do you just milk them for all the information that you can get and then drop them or do you
actually provide therapeutic support for them to be able to move beyond. That. Is that traumatic
experience in their life.
KM Yeah. When it comes to sort of training and really gaining knowledge and knowing
what is happening in all of those sort of things how much of that goes on in sort of this team and
what do you know about more widely as well.
Interviewee Well within the team I think we've had I...er.. I think benefiting from being
in a multi agency team again our police colleagues have ..erm..had quite a lot of training
organised for them and as much..as agency partners..we have also benefited. We had a fantastic
input on sexualized trauma from top psychologist the other week and it was one of the best
pieces of CPD that I've ever experienced in my entire life...and that...as. I'm in my 60s...you can
see that it's been quite a lot. So there's been some really good stuff funded through the police that
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we've been able to access as agency partners. We all do as I said earlier..each agency is doing it
some awareness raising and..trying to..train people up. I think we've squeezed a little bit of
money here and there to put on events during the week running up to national CSE awareness
day erm..and that's been good because we've been able to draw in people from all the different
agencies and do something that's focused and locally informed and..all the rest of it
um..er..certainly there are some of us within the team who have erm..either currently or in the
past acted as. associate trainers for Kent Safeguarding children board and actually delivered their
CSE training..on their behalf. Which I think has been particularly you know it feels good to me
to get the feedback from the groups that I've taken that you know it was it came alive for them
because they had somebody doing that training with them that knows exactly what's going on
because they're doing research on potential victims and potential perpetrators every day. So I
know the outcomes and know the strategies that have been put in place to try and change that
sort of picture. So there's quite a lot of training going on. We got invited to talk to the designated
safeguarding leads in schools by the education safety team so they had that conference for a
designated safeguarding leads and we got a slot. So again that that sort of thing. [Yeah] it's been
really positive...and again I think that's happening because of that sort of multiagency element to
this scene. And in fact on one occasion I even did some stuff for tepees because my colleague
couldn't do it. So again that was a multiagency team. So I know that there's stuff happening. As
part of the safeguarding. Training for G.P's. that is to do with CSE. I know that health colleague
has trained. Dozens and dozens and dozens of. Health care professionals in sexual health clinics
and erm..and in A and E's, GP as she's done and she said she's sort of covered lots of different
aspects of the health service in the awareness raising that she's been doing so. And. None of that
was happening with the possible exception of the CSE training from KSCB before the team. I
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think that predated that team but not not by a lot now. And you know I just think that when you
look back three and a half years as to what was in place then and what's and what's happening
now I think the picture is a lot better in terms of training for professionals.
KM That's really good. Do you think that we are learning from previous reports previous
cases. Does that sort of learning actually happen. I've actually listening. I think that's.
Interviewee One of the earlier questions except you know it's a bit of a mixed situation.
There are times when the resource elements or structural elements within the different agency.
So restructuring in the police or restructuring in. The. Local authority or restructuring of the
health service has an impact. And. At times like that I think sometimes be less and less. Yes.
Because the main agenda is no longer whether we're actually learning from what's going on. It's
can I get my restructure done the way that I want. And we take our focus off learning from other
people's experience. But. I do think we were learning chaos CB organized CSC champions and
we've had the national working group coming to them. We've also had. The National Working
Group come and talk to our team. We've had lots of challenging things from the people that
we've invited to come along and you. Know the last year. For national CSC awareness we
focused on boys because there are concerns about the low figures and some of the speakers that
came in and they really did make you step back and think. So I do think we're learning but like
all of us sometimes you take two steps forward and then you take a step backwards because of
the external. Forces that are in play and you lose sight of the ball.
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KM We've touched upon this already a little bit. But do you feel that there is enough
inquisitiveness surrounding CSE.
Interviewee What professional curiosity? [Yes]. I'm going to sound like I'm repeating
myself its patchy. I've seen some because I go into social services records and only help records
as part of my information gathering contribution. I see fantastic pieces of work being done. By.
Unsung heroes in any help. Who have been wonderful in the amount of professional curiosity
that they have displayed in carrying out something like a return interview for a missing child
and. Out of that not only comes a whole load of support that that child gets but they're also fed
the information into us that I've just done and with interview with this child and I think it's
something not right. And. They've. Worked with that young person in a way that they get names
and locations and. And associates that have allowed us to sort of build a much bigger picture and
that's down to this sort of professional curiosity. The pieces of work that you see in the routine
stuff that only help focus and social workers. My main focus is when you look at those you are
seeing for some people really good challenging. Work being done with the young person and
with the family. And building up a sort of a protective environment for that person. But. Like all
of these things there are times when you think why didn't you ask the question. And then you
know sometimes you look at stuff and you think focus. There was this case has been open
enough and I'm going to ignore that because I need to close my eyes and that's on social services
and on early help side of things. And in that as a former manager of teens doing Children and
Families Work I know that those pressures are there. And that you know you have to move and
then it's a bad thing to sort of stagnate. But at the same time we shouldn't be getting the feeling
that sometimes things are accepted or ignored because of the need to close.
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KM And do you think that that's the main driver for these things. Or do you also feel and
I'm only asking this because some previous research does show that some professionals don't
really want to see the worst and they want to believe the best [yeah.] Do you think that they....
Interviewee I think there's a part of that. Yes. I've done quite a bit of staring. On a
particular case recently. Where I didn't get married I may have to say. But. Nevertheless I was
very very concerned as was there and help back there any help work was challenging. And
eventually managed to get it. It escalated to children's social services. When. You then got. From
what I was seeing when I went back in and updated myself on what had been going on within
that family. I wasn't seeing the progress of the bank but the social worker was because the social
work was taking people who was looking at what the parents said they were putting in by way of
protective factors and what I was saying was not what they set out before and they didn't do it
then I think I can't see any evidence that they've done it. So yes I think there is a. You built a
relationship with the family and you want things you want to be nice to them. Yeah yeah. Hadn't
be it at that point it becomes difficult to professionally challenge but there's a lot of good people
out there who even know. It may not be the best thing for their relationship with the family. They
still go on and they do that challenging because they're focusing on safeguarding the child.
KM Last question. If you did have a magic wand what would we do.
Interviewee I'd certainly put more funding into this area but then everybody would say
no. And. Because I think there's that sort of follow on work that. Both in terms of diversionary
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse217
tactics before you hit a problem and. Psychological and practical support you traumatized young
people. At the other end. Of the scale. And I think that is I would want to see that that would be
part of my magic wand and at the risk of sounding like a cracked in. I still think a multiagency
satellite co-located central team is is the way to go. Yeah. So my magic wand would keep it in
place. Good.
KM Perfect. Thank you so much.
Health and Police Link
But it still works. Yay. And for now. Right.
How many years have you worked for this organization. I've worked for the N H S since
1995.
Plenty of experience. Absolutely. So. I was 18 at the time. Yeah long time with CCG I've
been with CCD for two and a half years. My background is out of health. Yeah.
Speaking of background The next question is What do you could summarize your
background and sort of what your general responsibilities are.
Okay so my background is I was a nurse midwife health visitor. I then went into domestic
abuse and set up the first semester abuse health post within Medway.
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Then I became a safeguard advisor for the community trusts within Medway. Then went
into the acute sector then came back out to Kent to do domestic abuse since I've got two children
and then ended up here. While I know years did I've been around a bit so my roles
responsibilities within the team is to aid communication.
Healthy. As you properly are very aware is very it's made up of lots of lots of provider
organisations. And so it's very difficult to navigate your way round to find the right people to
speak to. So my real role is to be that conduit for health into police and social care from health.
So I get the information from health providers or commissioning services into the team I then
share with the team and then the process of information sharing goes back how because actually
health holds quite a lot of information regarding young people and families that can be closest
where you care. So I also train update. I have a strategic overview of CSA for Ken and Medway
because I'm funded by the HCC GS across Medway so they all have a bit of me there is only one
of me. So yes really they are in a nutshell what I am supposed to do.
Great. Picking up what are you talking about information sharing. Yeah of course it's sort
of a big issue that everybody always discusses.
Absolutely. Are you finding that.
Okay or right because you know I've setup was I've been in the post for two and a half
years now because what I find difficult is that each provider organization for health have a
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse219
different database system. They have their own system for recording information which I don't
have access to because I'm provided by commissioning services and their provider and they don't
want me having access to their systems. So what I have within each provider organization is I
have a CSA champion so Charles exportation champion who takes on that role within their
provider organization to have information shared to be. A bit more of a specialist in child sex
exploitation so that they can answer their own provider organizations questions before come into
me. So I've got like a bit of a step system. So when information comes to me yes. So when
information comes to me from what. From our intel portal I then filled that information out to my
CSC champions and I've got one every provider organization so that goes out to see Cam to goes
out across Kent and Medway mental health providers and they have got 48 hours to turn that
information around to send me any information that their organization has on that child. Then I
share that with the team. OK so that is a process sometimes the 48 hours goes a little bit astray
because of workloads and things like that but actually they are to keep a record. They then flag
that young person as being high risk sexy or being sexually exploited. So if they then attend that
provider organization or any health services again they then let me know. There is a good way of
information sharing. Also. If they are concerned about a young person that is not flagged so they
identify from whatever service provision that they are providing they then use the E portal to
share that information with us and also let me know so I can follow up where that information
trail was gone. So we have quite a robust system now that sometimes goes a little bit amiss.
However being. Co-located I think my CSC champions and provider organizations see that
actually that's a real good way of getting information in and getting information back now.
And and they can I can see the worth of bus being all together. They're very good.
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I couldn't do my ride without having my CSA champions really good because you know
you always hear about these theories about how difficult it is to share any sort of detail of that
sort of so you actually have in a system which works in most of the time. Yeah.
Absolutely. Yeah.
With the jeeps because I am funded by the commissioning groups I have direct access to
them. So if I have a young person that's flagged up to me that's high risk of being sexually
exploited. I would also make the GP aware I have to. I don't have generally have a conversation
with them at that point. But what the letter states is that actually have concerns about this young
person. Please keep this letter on their file. If you have any concerns. Please feed them back to
me and I do have some GP ringing me. We've had a recent one where a GP got a disclosure of a
rape victim who was the perpetrator was part one of our network's perpetrators. So it does work.
It's actually really good. Okay.
Right. Where have I. Oh yes. I guess you've kind of answered it but I'll ask anyway in
case I can't get it from there. But what really is your involvement in countering CSC.
I would say highlighting CSA keeping it very prevalent in providers minds because what
you find is because safeguarding children is a massive umbrella that actually one minute CSC is
the flavor of the month the next minute neglect his or the next minute sexual abuse is or or we've
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gotten modern day slavery. So all of these false topics come up. So I think my role is to keep
CSA on the agendas of everybody so don't forget about CSA. It might not be in your face so
much at the moment but be very mindful look at the vulnerabilities and also that networking and
sharing of information being a contact point for people. So when you sort of say that because if
it's a previously as well and you try to raise awareness and you're involved in training and all of
that as well.
I don't really want to ask you how you do that by the way what I do want to ask is sort of
you know do you think that people are actually aware enough do you think they know enough is
there enough training you know that they understand well in health provider organizations they
have to include child sex exploitation in each of their levels.
Okay. So level one level two level three according to the intercollegiate document. So
they're all their staff should be trained and safeguard into a level that they're supposed to be
trained. So when they come into. A role within a provider organization that role then nominates
what level of safeguard in traffic training they require. So I don't do that whole standardized
because I'm one of many thousands of workers within the NHS. So I the safeguard in teams
incorporate that within that training. I tend to do the bespoke stuff so I will get GP practice is
going to come gives an impact on child protection. How does it look within our area or I guess
I'll go down to see how and give them an impact about what it looks like to them how their one
on one service can you know actually identify over the phone. So I do the bespoke bit of training
in person. What I also do is circulate anything that's sent to me from. The National Working
Group. I send out my champions to then should be disseminating it to the people that should be
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse222
aware and frontline staff and the safeguarding children's boards. They provide CSC training so
that there are pockets of training. However I think we have to keep highlighting it for GP. I've
just done a massive CSA and put aG.P.S. Metway again highlighting because I've done that two
years ago. So I'm just trying to keep them on board. But also then try and disseminate
information through their bulletins and their newsletters and whatever resource are confined to
actually keep it in the word out there and try and filter it through so dissemination of information
can get stuck at places because I have to go higher as well. So I'm sort of a middle person. So we
have a mace. So multiagency sex exploitation strategic group. So what information we feed into
that goes higher. And then sometimes goes low depending. Because then we've got the
champions stuff. Yeah. And that group is that. And I just say or is that more multiagency and not
just the agency so it is led and minuted and led by. Police are the chair but the local safeguarding
children's boards do the minutes and dissemination of information and stuff. That's.
Good right.
This might seem like an obvious question but it's not obvious to everybody. So what
agencies do you feel are actually responsible for dealing with CSC. Everybody. Absolutely.
Like from I think from your domestic staff you know your cleaners in hospitals the
receptionists right the way through to your executives. It's everybody's agenda.
And how well do you actually think that the nature and extent of CSR is understood by
you to please other agencies.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse223
I don't think it is. I don't think I think people go Yeah I get it. I don't think they truly get
it. I don't because I don't think they understand. The coercion part and consent is such a blurred.
Area ha. And the language that's used when reports come back you really don't think
people have got a grasp of what it is like. And I think it's too hard for people to actually
contemplate because what we're thinking about is sexual abuse of children and an organized
crime network of adults potentially that are. Perpetrating that. And that's really hard to think
about. So.
Yeah I I don't think people necessarily grasp the whole concept and ideas and understand
it fully. So when you try to raise awareness or do some extra training what tend to be your sort of
key messages to really try to put it in there so case studies are trying to use case studies and
understand so they can see how health because sometimes health go well why health is involved.
So it's trying to get it back to their area of specialism to go well actually you may have seen that
or you could see that or you make the disclosure. So yeah it's just try in different ways of.
Understanding here. Also more recently I have been thinking about this I did a bit of a group of
I've done a pilot group called the elevation program. Yes. Okay this is a Yeah and that's an early
intervention pilot that we found with eight young people seven completed the course six
completed course and one young person on that would be very good come in and talking to
professionals. So I'm just going to build on that relationship get to a point and see whether or not
she can assist me on wanted wanted to do that and share her story. So I think when you make it
real like that it's not just somebody going Oh Kirstie trained to be on that day cursing banging on
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse224
about that. So when the three girls docu drama came out yeah. That really had an impact on
professionals because it was. That's what Kirstie has been talking about. It managed to put it into
a way that the story that they could actually go. That's that said yes so. And it wasn't it wasn't
really until that came out. And now lots of people go. Have you seen three girls go on watch it
because actually that's not necessarily the ethnicity of the perpetrators. And can look a bit
different in Kansas is more or peer on peer but that's the gist of what we're trying to get at. But
it's weird how you know something on TV can then suddenly raise it to a level that we're trying
to do.
But they do it much more easily. What are your personal views on the nature and extent
of CSC. So what does it look like any like demographics any models any anything.
You know what.
We because in training people go what demographics is it that was second generation
British Pakistani men and men and across can up until recently the demographics have been.
Could be any young person any perpetrator any facilitator anybody can be. Yes. We've had a few
trends as in something like 38 percent were looked after children at 52 percent had a missing
episode. So we had the fun ability. But on the other side. But nothing nothing that we could go
because actually would have been easier if there was a demographic population that we could go
you know what we need to target that area. We'll get the community involved we'll actually do
some work around that. But because it's so generic it's been really hard to focus our resources
because it has to go across the board.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse225
So when it comes to the different models of CSC of which there are plenty are there any
trends in there do you see an increase in one over the other or is it still just it's still we've seen
within Ken.
I think it's a bit like domestic abuse to the peer on peer so the same age range children do
in so perpetrators and victims and that becomes very difficult with trying to spot and try and
unpick and when consent when it becomes blurred. So it's it's really difficult but it is more peer
on peer I would say Yeah inappropriate relationships over the age but you can you can see them
a little bit easier because of the age difference.
Yeah of course. And what about the role of the Internet.
Do you think it's because it's really sort of hyped up really easily. Do you think that it is
actually such a massive factor here.
I believe so.
So from our public colleagues I feel that they're there. Yeah they're inundated with online
crime. And we know there's epidemic of self generated indecent images. And we've not had quite
so many come from. But that's probably because it's a deal in or public dealing. So here I just
believe it's all intermixed and interrelated really.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse226
Do you feel that there has been an increase in the number of victims.
Hmm.
That's a difficult question because actually I think we've got better at identifying. I think
we are.
Here I just think we share in a bit more information because we've got the you know the
the availability to do that. A little bit easier process. I think that we're highlighting it a bit more.
True CSC cases. Has there been an increase. I think that's too hard to tell. I think it's two it's two
interrelated with other things to be able to pick. No I think it's been out there all the time I just
think we're better at recognizing it. Yeah I think maybe the way.
The police structure is going out to NZ so I think we haven't got a handle necessarily any
more on the overview of what it looks like for Ken because not all the information has come into
us.
It's interesting you see that because it's part of my later questions I'm sort of more
agencies. Of course you're work in a multiagency team here. It actually does seem to be going
quite nicely. But you also have to extend to other agencies and under multiagency teams maybe
the more local ones. How's that going.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse227
Okay. So we have tried to build links with the district graves but they're on any partner
agencies with in those police in districts. So the next part because of the restructure and
everything that's going on. Part of my role is to scope how health potentially could lurk within
MSF. However that would potentially be an increase in resources because I couldn't do that on
my own within MSF.
Plus how you manage that if you didn't then get extra resources how that would be best
managed. I don't know because it's the co location with the other professionals that makes it
work because you share information in a timely way with the access to the resources at that
point. So the information comes in someone talks about it we go let's have a look at it and have a
discussion and go. That is right. That doesn't. So when you then broaden to district areas does it
mean I would need my social care colleagues potentially to be with me to actually be able to do
that triage process within the district settings which would mean many more resources because
Kent so fast and there's about seven hops.
Yeah. So I don't know how that's going to look but that's my next exercise is scoping out
how potentially could look thinking outside the box because then do you then go back to your
map. Sure your chart you know your central referral unit to do those information searches for
you. Yeah. That's a tricky one isn't it. Because basically I could be out not out of a job but out of
this role. Yeah.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse228
And do you feel that I know that you're still sort of trying to scope it out and. Yeah of
stuff. But do you believe that the setting that you are in now should actually remain do you think
that this is you know what works best.
Yes I think it should remain. I absolutely believe in multiagency work. And the co
location is key because it's those informal.
Chats that you have. It's the relationships you build because actually we can have quite
challenging conversations so we can have those professional differences in a safe environment
then I have that professional challenge because we know each other so well. Plus also with
multiagency working you have to understand where each other professional is coming from.
What is their role. What is their responsibilities. We're all working for the same goal but
we've got different aspects of it. It's about coming together to make it work. You then suddenly
make somebody remote work and they don't feel part of the team.
You don't have the informal conversations you don't have that awesome because you
learn by osmosis when you're within a team. You know located team. He just makes those
relationships more difficult. It makes it more time. You know expensive because you haven't
you're not there onsite.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse229
And so I absolutely believe in this way of working. However I think that maybe we could
share our experiences and develop here and go more exploitation however keep in potentially the
sexual element. But growing the team right off the bat have been.
Asked as the multiagency partners working also alongside your gang's team potentially or
forced your modern slavery team because actually they have failed would then have access to
our knowledge we would then be able to diversify however keeping the sexual element because
that is the most vulnerable part. And nobody wants to talk about. Rape of children. And so we
almost need to keep a handle on that. But share. Yes. So share the practice share it across.
Exploitation go bigger within the remit. And work it that way.
What are your thoughts on those local exploitation teams.
Because I do know that there are sort of some localized are sort of multi agency but not
quite as yet and same as in the map.
Yeah. Those. Yeah. OK so the matching met raised just started up. I don't know how
that's well and how that's functioning at the mine. I've got a good link with the health
representative within the match. But they're dealing with.
Every every part of guarding within that local area actually. So it's not actually looking
at. So a lot we find that a lot of our work is not reactive. So we get some information in we get a
bit of a hunch we get concerned about a young person and then we go in and do the persistent
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse230
consistent work to build reporters because our disclosures don't come to your down way down
the line. So we work very differently. So we almost got a non crime way of working until the
crime is then disclosed. So it's very different. So we work on that soft intelligence rather than the
acute situation that's happening where the information goes into mash and crew.
And you just ask me some of my own questions.
I'm just just getting ready to go. Not really.
And you already mentioned when you spoke about how the team could possibly work.
You spoke about stuff like trafficking and gangs. So the next questions really are about. Do you
feel that there has been sort of a change in criminality more generally which impacts on CSC
then as well.
I think again it's more of a highlighted issue. I think we. The public are more aware
because the news and our reporting on county lines and coming out into the home counties.
I think we've been aware for a little while that this is something that's been happening
within Kenya met by. But again it takes us a while to get on you know to get an understanding to
see how it looks to then get the resources to them et cetera et cetera. So I don't believe that it is
anything new. I think it's something that's a new wave of thinking. Yeah. With the vulnerabilities
and there is massive crossover with the criminal exploitation and sexual exploitation because
again it's used as a weapon. Yeah.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse231
And the interlink and a lot of my bespoke training is about looking at the vulnerabilities
and exploitation as a whole because for our frontline health practitioners they might only get 10
minutes with that young person. So it's about done and try and put it into a pot. Don't try and find
it down.
Just look at the vulnerability send the information into us and then we will work out
whether or not we think it's criminal or sexual exploitation.
So gender we've been finding that we haven't been meeting our national targets for the
three girls ident every three girls identified to be one male team that we have but 10 percent of
our caseload is is boys and young men.
And so I'm trying to do a piece of work to say think gender neutral don't just think boys
it's criminal exploitation girls sexual exploitation is a right. Yeah. Because both can be exploited
for both. So that's a real sort of pushing point at the moment. Any other sort of. Criminal.
Criminality types that impact CSC on top of sort of these that we normally talk about like
trafficking in gangs.
I think it has an end. I think yes sex is used as a weapon. It's used as a form of control. It's
that they're going to use it. Yeah.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse232
That's fair enough. We've spoken about multiagency plenty which is great. Do you have
any examples of successes that multiagency work.
Okay so the GDP recently reported in a rape to us. The GDP rang in. They got disclosure
of rape rang into the police. Social care that got tagged for us.
The perpetrator was actually the perpetrator of that rape was also linked to an organised
perpetrator being that we were sort of aware of and investigating. So that's good practice because
actually we have that link. We had.
A young person and a pic of some minor injuries unit and had a retained condom. The
safeguarding lead at the time looked at that information and shared it with me in a really timely
way and actually that was the case.
The young person that had the retained condom is actually one part of our biggest
operations in the moment.
We've had I've managed to locate missing children before we've actually put out national
alerts as in the child we've been talking about child child be missing no one's seen them. I from
the GP receptionist who said has this young person been in today. No. However their GP
contraception screening. I'm going to ring them make an appointment see if we can get them in.
The receptionist did that spoke to Mum Mum but with child and child wasn't missing. So there's
lots of bits of information. Where good practice has happened and we've followed up on that.
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We've had another one where any staff have seen a young person the young person was with two
other young people. I think she came in with non-specific Abdo pain the one of the males when
who was her boyfriend went and looked her in but couldn't remember her date of birth that
triggered alarm bells. That information got shared with us and actually it wasn't a CSG issue.
However there was some concern about vulnerabilities and her immigration. Their
immigration status.
So there are bits of you know in practice that rarely come in through and it seems that this
is just what I'm hearing. Maybe I'm wrong but it does seem that the core of all of this really is
that everything is done really timely. When you work in a setting like this absolutely so you don't
actually lose out on these individuals who come through. No. No.
Because we can work together you say we've got our act access to our own networks
within our own organisations. We can do it all at the same time. So that's how it works.
Really good. Any specific set of problems in multiagency work.
I think you have to have the right people within the right team. You have to have trust
and confidence in your other team members so you could have a good dynamic. You've got to be
able to change you've got to be able to you know have that work in relationship.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse234
I love what I did there. I really like I really absolutely think that multiagency work is hey
this is a matter loaded question.
Okay. So do you feel that you have enough resources for tackling CSC. No.
Across the board or as in health provision as in Let's stop this sort of multiagency setting
that you're in. Okay. Your role.
No. So when New Horizons came into place our team was cut we were told that we
wouldn't be half that actually we were going as business as usual. We we've had we've got one
really big case at the moment it's taken all our resources so we're not able to do stuff that we've
set out to do. Which we find very difficult and reach hands in at the moment because we're not
being given any direction. So probably hasn't been told. So around this time just be careful what
you post because I am will be identifiable. The difficulties we've got is that actually even though
we are a multiagency team. Co-located the police have taken it on themselves to restructure and
look at our team and review our team. However I don't believe that they've gone to health
provider.
My boss and my social care bosses to have that high up discussion before making
changes to the team. So they've gone let's review that team and then gone oh shit we've got other
agencies in there and have had to stow.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse235
So even though we are a multi agency team and before this period of time so even before
I like so before June I would say July I would say we were truly multiagency making decisions
together. Suddenly that's been taken away and I feel like we've been police. We're now under a
police directive.
Yeah so that video way it is and how these things go. There is no public protection isn't
supposed to be bodies late at night.
So exactly. But because we are in part of a we are within a police unit we're not funded
by the police. They probably feel like that they can make changes and restructure and that comes
but anxiety provoking because my role is specialist nurse for child sexual exploitation. So that
has a difference. That's my specialism. That's why I'm here. You then changed the name to child
exploitation team without any conversations about that. What went that staff. Me too I've
become the specialist nurse on child sexual exploitation within an exploitation team. Or do they
expect me then to become an exploitation specialist. However at the moment we're in a period of
flux because we don't know which way we're going to go.
Are we going to be disbanded. Are we going to have increased resource. How does how
does that look on everybody. So at the moment it's difficult because we just don't know because
they've not had those conversations higher up to be able to let us know.
So I'll be honest I do think soda from previous research as well and talking to other
people this is actually like a real problem with any multiagency team isn't it because they are sort
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of almost the the least secure ones. Yeah. Absolutely. No and there are so many teenagers with
these things all the time that actually yes.
Yes absolutely. And it took a lot to get health to commit to put in somebody into this
team that actually you run they run the risk of losing because my social work colleague is being
pulled out already. She's literally been taken away from CSA to do other things because the word
on the street is the team's been disbanded.
So yeah to so something that really works out. What. Brilliant. Fabulous. We won a
National Award in April and now they go. Costco or whatever it is you might be gone.
Moving on so it's really sad. I felt that it was there. Yeah.
If you could generate more countering CSA activity what would you focus on the most.
So what sort of activities would you like to see the most.
To combat it. Yes early intervention early early recognition. Where would this be. Okay.
This would be out in districts this would be done by your youth services and early help.
You know health professionals can get in. I see you know having confidence self-esteem
boosting programs to actually empower our young people. I think we're doing that more and
more because we getting more and more young people coming forward and saying this isn't right
rather than your non recent stuff. But I think it's their. Schools. Education.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse237
It needs to be in those environments so that we built our self-worth our self-confidence
say you know get the truth out there to young people that actually what you see on social media
is not true. And so they can actually take ownership of of their life you know. Yeah they're less
vulnerable. Or even if we can't reduce their vulnerabilities they know that there are people out
there that can support them. Yes I think we can. I mean I know that there's not a wrap
wraparound service.
We have got health provision and therapeutic support post abuse. There's not enough of
it. However if we can get in early and build up those networks and those support networks and
that self esteem hopefully if God forbid this ever happens to those young people they have then
got the resilience and coping to come through the other side with support and counts in India.
How you know that the long term health effects will be lessened.
So these sort of strategies of course mostly focus on decreasing the number of victims.
How do you think we could then also.
Decrease the number of possible perpetrators. How can we work with people early on so
that they don't actually.
Same thing same thing the same thing is all about our young people. I think we've missed
a trick over the years we've let you know if not with PHC been in schools as a you know a
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse238
requirement and necessity. It's been very hit or miss as to what they've got. Education wise and
here I think.
I think we really need to not focus on some of the academia so some of the stresses and
pressures that young people are under with the testing and education and getting results.
I think it needs to be more of a holistic approach to actually build up those social
networks to actually empower and support our young people because life really difficult from
now right. I wouldn't want to go back.
You know with social media and the images that are portrayed and yeah difficult times
for them.
There is this question of how well you think instead of training in your agency works and
is available and all of that.
But I think that if this gets that intensive your team actually yeah I think so. I think you're
responsible for training others. Yeah. Yeah.
OK.
This question says whether you feel there's enough inquisitiveness surrounding CSC what
we tried to get across with this question is you know how all these different reports they keep
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse239
talking about how professionals want to see the best in a situation rather than seeing the worst in
a situation. Do you think that there has been any movement on this. Do you think we are a bit
more inquisitive now.
Please God. Otherwise my job Diamond done my job. We do. We go on about
professional curiosity within health because obviously that's the Raimy I'm speaking about. We
do we ask them take names don't just take if the AAP don't just because you know we go back to
Victoria Columbia times about you know who are people so a rep please God we've moved on
from from not getting that information to get it. I think we are. I think. I think it's really hard
when people are stretched and pushed and we've got cuts and sharp staff shortages and.
That impacts on the way people work.
But hopefully I really hope that we have come some way to get in health professionals to
just an extra question if and and have supervision and talk to people you know talk to their line
managers if they've got a concern.
And we always work on and we try and say to people it doesn't seem right. It doesn't look
quite or feel right. It generally isn't to ask the extra question and we're quite perceptive in health
you know health providers are. So I just try and get them to do that. I just I just hope. Yeah.
Last question. Yes. If you had a magic wand what would you do. Oh my God I. I.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse240
Would eradicate CSA.
Yeah that's a good one however.
I mean there's very blue sky thinking we've had it for many years and it just just evolves
in different ways. I would and. I would try to support those I would have.
Massive wraparound services from from education getting in early getting the teaching in
mega and young stand in supporting the staff there then providing that education and then
support the young people through youth services but also have that support if it does happen to
them as well as wrap around with the families because actually it generally starts with them. So it
is massive it's about is almost having.
A blanket to wrap them all up here. And. And support them through that journey and
clear them up as best you can. And I think that sometimes a start with the family the parents or
foster parents and then work with young people bring up their self-esteem self-worth give them
the confidence to say no you know give them then the confidence of the skills to be able to come
forward because actually if we raise.
And take care of our vulnerable people and we raise their self-esteem and self-worth
hopefully our perpetrators won't pick them because they're not going to become as vulnerable or
vulnerable anymore. So if we can work with them because it's really hard to work with
perpetrators because we need to educate them we need to say to them that this isn't right because.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse241
We can sometimes re victimize our victims and not work on the perpetrator because the
perpetrators fall. I would also like to see on the other hand the prosecutions of so we can raise
awareness if we get prosecutions with them we can actually raise the awareness and say. We can
do this come forward and tell us his experiences because actually look what happens. Where do
you think it's going wrong with sort of prosecute as I. Understand and understand in education.
It's very hard it's a one on one offense is that you know he or his or her word against one
against the other. Behind closed doors better understanding context and understanding what's
really been said to us by my behavior and.
I think the CPS is still a little bit behind us on that. And it won't be until more we learn
from more prosecutions and more people prosecute. And that it's really hard because you know
what is at 6 percent in kind of adult rapes get through to prosecution their adult rapes you know
children rapes. Our system isn't geared up for children so it is. Yeah. Thank you very much.
Safeguarding Lead 3
Start by telling me your name.
And the roll. Yep. So my name is Gemma Groves. I'm a DSL at the school here of any
race. They just come back from maternity leave so previous to that I deputized for Gary May late
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse242
DSL and at the moment I guess my role is not up in the air but sort of need some clarifications
whether or not I'm still deputized No I'm just a member the safeguarding team.
Can you clarify just in the reporting. Yes. Did what GSL designated safeguarding light.
And what does that mean to this school. How does it operate. What kind of structure.
Yeah. Okay so we here have our lead DSA which is as I said is Gary May. So he is sort
of our go to man and then we have a team underneath that which consists of seven or eight of us.
They've all got the DSL training and up to date and how that works is that we have
weekly meetings and discuss any children that they've got to concern or have any involvement
through such steps as a help. We also deal with green forms which is our referral process at the
school. The staff here if they are concerned about any member any student they refer that by the
way inform when we pick them up and then disseminate to the team how and where we see fit.
OK. And you have links external sources that you have arranged.
Yep yep yep. And help team school nurse. Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah. Okay great.
Thank you.
Can you tell me your involvement with CSC so kind of how you would be personally
involved how it would come to here and what you would do. Okay so it would come to us
through I guess.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse243
The green form process. So if a member of staff of you know anything I've had
something I match didn't disclose anything to them they would have thought that I'm a green
form and we would then pick it up that way. It also might come to us through should have been
involved or where day and. That been shared with us the child is being sexually exploited. Again
it would depend on what. What it was whether or not they would have social services but what
we pass out on to the social worker and the health worker. If it was something that was new we
would automatically when I want it and follow the person the line process.
So when we talk about our agencies that speaks to his actions this is of perceptions and
then is the response the agency has always saw your scope right. Yeah. And. So in your area
every day concerning areas who do you think is involved or who would you say was was in
charge of countering CSA. The place. To place. Yeah. And.
What's their role that you see in doing that. Do you see. I see that they have a specific
team that deals with CSA. And I would say that they. Try to work with schools and social
services and would. Perhaps do joint visits to those children involved in CSA. That's how I see it.
The police can't hear you. Yes. What. Yes. Are they yours. You say you weren't in school
yet and you needed to flag something up. They the people that you'd go to. Yeah I would but I
want to. Yeah cool. Thank you. Now are you over. Are you like who live.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse244
No. I live in China. Okay yeah. That's funny. That's another area that I worked in on it as
well.
So yeah. St. George's. Yeah. Is that right. So when I saw your name I was like I'm pretty
sure that I know you are. Oh yeah I said that's like in the desk. Well I can't think where from
oyster workers in Georgia is about. I. Have.
My little girl she's three or four five years.
I left five years ago. Well most of the day I reckon I've heard that say my name. So what
do you teach over there. So I did. I was when he is a fighter and then I was my teacher and I was
chosen English language and business studies B10. I like high so I probably see my name with
the whole thing or something like that.
That's funny because of what I do know you. Oh how funny. Oh yeah.
Yeah typical small way. Yeah. Makes sense. So yeah. Funny is another place right.
Really.
Absolutely. And I think because I sort of started my safeguarding row in instant at St
George's property for the last year that I was there and I think.
The area is all very similar but very different at the same time.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse245
A degree in coastal towns in general. Yeah of course. Right. Yeah. And it hasn't very
different. Everything got a lot more attention in time. Yeah he's got a lot more displaced perhaps.
It's absolutely a late day and that's something coming down. I know I would say so over smaller.
As well. Obviously I can get compared to fund it but yeah because fund 3 isn't yet like market
rounds gave and brought. Yeah but gross debt is gentrifying. Yes absolutely. They count. Yes.
Right. Yeah. Two towns reserve is just one. Absolutely right. Yes it has the dogs. Yes it has.
Yeah exactly. We're finding that most people are like second third fourth generation. Yeah.
Yeah. So that's a different culture. Yeah absolutely. And my question about the like Larry and
you may or may not be able to answer because you're not living in diver and something that we
want to know is intensive. Do you think that the nature extent of CSA is understood by the other
agencies in the area say the police are the same sure is that you've kind of dealt with here. Do
they understand what's easy. I think some of them day.
And perhaps some of them don't. I think it's the classic case of this doesn't happen in my
in our area. That's that's what I think that's probably and I think that would be the same if you ask
me and ask me any question about not just CSA but what causation. Anything like that. Yeah I
think that I think there's some professionals perhaps. That would think more that doesn't like that
can't go on in my life. That's what I think. Okay.
That's fair enough and I think we've seen that across. Some do some. Yeah. Does it
depend on the agency or the specific agencies and maybe a more read up on it.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse246
More departments maybe within school whether they know what they expected or not.
Not that I've seen.
I wouldn't say yes just general. Yeah. Yeah. I understand. Yes. No. Yeah. Massively
windy. So what are your personal views on the DS law nature and extent of. So in terms of what
it means what it is and how it manifests itself in this area. What do you see as.
Springboard. Yeah. So what do you mean in terms of like. Like a definition of it or why it
happens so.
Yeah. So if you can give me like a definition of Easy easy. Okay here it's in the area.
Okay so I would say that some of our young people have been.
Used by majority older men to perhaps do certain things. Obviously sexually in return for
what they think perhaps is give status. And then perhaps get in other friends within the school
within the local area involved with that. Yeah.
And 40s. How do you think that manifest itself. You say it's probably older men yet not
older as in men older than men older.
Yeah. Yeah. Is it male or female young people getting involved in my personal
experience. Mainly girls.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse247
Mainly girls were gonna come back to that age of course. Now remember this is the year
on my yes. There's no disclosure yet. Yeah but you can talk about certain areas. I don't want to
make you uncomfortable. It's fine to know the structure. Yeah I understand it. Okay. Have there
been any any sexual demographic trends in recent years which contributed to this problem. What
do you mean by that.
Really. Without putting words in your mouth. Brexit. Oh right. Because it's Dave. Yeah.
Okay. Maybe that's having an impact but equally things like social media. Yeah. Technology.
Okay. Okay. I think maybe the Brexit one. How I feel now. I haven't seen any shift any
change but I have been off for a year so I don't come back till February so that might be why
maybe arguably say that you may be seeing more of a true trade. But no that is not one thing. I
would. Yeah. Would definitely not have said no in terms of attitudes changing or anything like
that but you'll see it.
Was really interesting. No. It's really interesting. Should I I've been for a research
perspective. So I come from psychology. Why. Well I would have expected to say is that there is
a shift in attitudes in the South Pacific diver to move a racial kind of thing. I would have seen
that filtered out of thought to say it was down through the children. Which then becomes a bit
more aggravated which may yet and leads them to more criminality. I think I mean it may be a
case that it hasn't happened yet. Yeah. That he's taken his time. Yeah. I will happen on next. Yes.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse248
The only thing that I would maybe say is you would hear certain things that you think we
know you've heard that home for Mum or Dad when there's been a few marches in Davar. That's
maybe when they're young people sometimes get a bit but nothing. They don't make any
comment that think it's quite funny like that they laugh about it. That's That's more like us. That's
my experience. Yeah but in terms of social media. So I've been here five years. And I would say
that that has massively. Increased the usage of social media and actually how easy it is for the
young people to be exploited and I think with social media that we will never know as much as
they as they do with young people do we always almost one step behind is on their side clued up.
And. We have these chats about online safe day. And I think some of them know exactly what to
say. Yeah I know what say the thing.
Oh that's great Miss Groves consider me off the list. She knows that I'm capable and
actually perhaps don't.
It's almost like the secretive nature of it is apparent. That's why you have secret group.
Yeah. And happy for everything. Everything except an outlier. And I was on a I was on an online
safety course a couple of years ago. And.
My outside names of people at the sites I was urban could to call the. Rebecca Avery who
was just fantastic. She asked if somebody might want to get in touch with her. So she is Casey
say but she's the Can online safety expert lead everything and she is amazed that she knows most
any questions I've ever asked. She's been fantastic and she said that her scariest while most
WhatsApp because of how encrypted it can. And you know you can use it to show your location
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse249
now and things like that. And I think unfortunately that's what the young people don't. Whilst
they can verbalize that they actually don't really understand what that actually means.
I understand the concern. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you know how we got out of your
school. No I don't. So David Fisher counsel came to us. They had some funding available. They
wanted us to do this research and see here this our face because it was such a privilege. Yeah and
and so we approached your school with the Academy we'd like to run the intervention because of
the links we have of course. Yes. Yes. Yes. So it is we want to do an intervention sweep or
something. Young people are putting about 30 of them. A few months ago to. Invest in I
delivered a session for them all on CSC. It was like a whole day's work cyber crime and did
some bullying. They did easy stuff I did gang related things. And when I touched on social
media I had lost it. Female as well because like I need male really and one of the young girls
went well.
Which why Snapchat. It is illegal to send news on Snapchat. No it's my birthday. Yeah I
know it's silly because you're minor as it's your effect restricting pornography by doing that.
Well is fine because it gets delayed after how many of us it doesn't. All it takes on to take a fight
over and you will never ever know that anyone's got back and then that could be anywhere in the
world that could be on the Internet and porn sites and child exploitation sites could be anywhere
and she saw. No I wouldn't. That's what occurred because it's always and it's your friend I'm
sorry.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse250
And I think that's that that I'd say in terms of sort of it's not minor. But in terms of that
type of thing almost that could Lincoln's lead on her exploitation is upstate. That's the biggest
thing that we probably deal with not on a daily. Not on a daily basis but it is quite regular of that
sort of you know the classic boy asked girl for picture she said was a nice.
He sends it to his friends and that does happen quite readily and they don't understand
they. Yeah. The significance of it. Absolutely.
And I feel that that in particular I don't think we're very well supported by perhaps other
agencies because when you read the policies it states that we can deal with it as a school was
how we see fit. And that doesn't sit very comfortably with me to be honest because ultimately
there is a law that isn't there and they're breaking that law. But then you're telling us as a school
that we can then deal with that how how we see fit which I don't think is appropriate your policy
because I've spoken to Dave Hunt.
Yeah yeah yeah. I'm saying you when you say that you have a policy that you don't
actually look at the photos online you immediately send it. Yeah. Yeah. Does that helped. They
helped ease some of that.
Yeah I think so because previously a game what was happening is we were saying what
we've got these photos let's go down to the I.T. Department get them on we've save them then
where are we then distributing them out way. So yeah that that that has. But what previously I've
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse251
seen even before I went on maternity leave is that the police say it's a school matter and it's and
it's dealt with by the by the school.
It's interesting to know where the boundaries. Yeah absolutely equally for you to know
when it's appropriate to call. Yes. Rather than bring them in every single athlete day. It's almost
like shifting blame. Yeah exactly. Exactly. Equally how do you feel this is something that isn't.
My question which maybe should be the next round because if we came up with Lin ready to
give his parents. What it was the parents were around him. I don't think I understand they don't
understand either because it wasn't around when they when they were growing up and I think
even though some of our parents are still quite young you know that in them you know that they
are young in age they still don't have an idea of. What happens and they.
And when it happens the majority of the time they do absolutely fly off the handle and
not isn't the right thing to do because they're not young person isn't going to come to them and
say we'll see so-and-so is going to ask me for they ask me what should I do Mom what should I
do dads because they're worried of how their parents are then going to react.
Yeah it's a difficult situation. I mean CSC as a whole and I don't know if parents are
wholly aware.
No. No. Absolutely. And again going back to what we were talking about agencies and
staff and things like that. I think parents would think that might happen to my child.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse252
We don't want. Yeah of course. Bridget. Yeah. Yeah. And equally I think also and this is
a bit off topic but it's almost shifting the responsibility to them in his ways. Yeah because we
know that the risk factors for CSC is. Discounted. Yeah. Dysfunctional families farmers maybe
single parents absent parents and all of these different things that then if someone told me or
your parent your child's a risk of a bad guy. Yeah. Yeah. You know because I've been able to
give absolute so I think there is a lot of that stigmatization as well. Although they are risk factors
equal we know there are not children out there that haven't come from that background. BCSE
Yeah because it can pretend on the actual pay.
And I think as well that there's always stuff that is tried to be done not you know sort of
maybe not not conferences like Q and A sessions maybe with different ages place and trying to
get parents involved but the parents turn up that turn up on the ones that you want to join.
Let's just have this conversation because there's something going on at the weekend in
Dave. Run by. Kendra. Do parodies and this really was hand me how it is I feel like a cool.
Person who was X gang. Yeah. Say who now runs things for awareness. They said that
only 20 people turned up. You know how we engage the parents that we've really got here. That
is an age old thing. How do I know they're not obsolete. If they were reachable wanted but it
wouldn't be happening. I think that they like you know I like being a teacher. You know parents
even and the ones perhaps the ones that you once had up to. Yeah not so. Yeah yeah yeah
exactly. I'll never contactable precise or any ever in the shower. Yeah yeah yeah. You know what
actually. Yeah. Yeah. No I type. And that's the issue that we're finding with research. Where do
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse253
we. Which one right interventions. Where do we run these interventions do we do a primary
school to secondary school to get 60 I'm doing it with parent. Yeah. If that's great how you got
here. That's the you know is it policy with the police. Where is. Who is all of these things linked.
Yeah and yeah it's a trick. Yes. And so we talk about social demographic trends have you.
You've always been off. He came back in February. Have you seen an increase in that period of
time. Potential victims in your school. So has it suddenly the reporting has gone up or
something's kind of changed that evening.
I think yes it has increased. I think that's actually because staff on the ground all are
referring more NS through the green forum process.
Maybe not maybe not linked to sexual exploitation but I think staff from the time I've
been here. It's but it's got better and better and better. Ask all members of staff referring. Yeah.
It's not increased but the reports. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. In the local area if you do have links.
Yes. You've seen stuff. Do you think that the potential victims of increase have you seen like
more you know you've had more things about it.
I don't think it's increased I think maybe it's always been there but people we're well
aware of it. That's what I think because more training. Yes. And more more aware. And. Maybe
more maybe more communication.
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OK. I think we're going to talk about that in a second. All kinds of communication. And
so I want to talk about the criminality side of it first in your area. I mean in time area what. Has
there. What are your thoughts surrounding it. The nature of criminality. And does this relate to
CSA. Say what I mean by that question is what kind of things do your children or your young
people end up.
Getting in trouble at least for. And do you think as it directly. Increases.
So much I would say that the majority of which will get a job with the police for antisocial behaviour. I think yeah that probably does have a link. And potentially could have a link
because I think they would see these young people getting involved with with the police.
They didn't know that these young people are willing to take risks. And obviously then
what we're like sort of county lines except Cha can then homed in on those vulnerable young
young students. Yeah that's interested and I'm wondering if. That. Link has been made yet.
In terms of have you seen what's happening here. So have you seen that kind of the
students that you get to replace and then you hear months later. Actually there's been a
safeguarding issue here.
Yeah I mean Lempert might have told you already but there is a student here who was
here and yeah and he and he was in trouble here at school. Very naughty was then excluded and
said I was the skills and I'm yeah he is he's way involved.
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And he's been in prison already over the older brother. He's. Also funding a field day
where we have his younger brother here in school and he or my sister is it is a classic case of that
but he's just. Been I think homed in on because. He was willing to take a few risks. Now. That's
an interesting aspect to come out is that they they see their risk taking behaviours and they
realize that they're not afraid to do things I guess because I think the classic.
Perception of it is they see vulnerable children who might be lured into this. Yeah.
Actually not not not not necessarily no.
I mean ultimately they're still vulnerable because they all taken away at different levels.
Yeah it's killing days I don't think when people say the word vulnerable they automatically say
that timid shy upset on their own. But no no absolutely not.
It can be your brains and you're confident and loud and often. Exactly. And then it's what
what you know what why they like that. And yeah I.
Think that is another misconception and something that even police struggled to deal
with because they don't see vulnerable people as yet. Or it's shifting. Yes taking a long yeah to
do. Yeah we talk about for example young girls. Pretty much every young girl a certain age is
vulnerable. Yeah because of the nature of their gender everything else but so a young boy. Yeah.
And never forget that. Yeah I have police officers where they let you go. Yeah. Course not. Toys
only 16. Yeah. Not quite the way I think about Absolutely. And again it's a shifting
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse256
understanding I think and equally with parents say they haven't. We've got tautology Iverson
talked to son like I say reset when he can. So yeah that's it withdraws alike. No she's never going
out she's not yet. If she was boys it's my fault. If she was a boy would you feel the same way.
Or nah. Because he could go out. Yeah his mates. Was absolute dead. Yes absolutely. If
his apartment was. Surrounded by the shrine that is something that I'm quite like Yeah.
Okay so that's these are your perceptions on it don't like. That's what I make clear. Not to
do with your hat to me this isn't there. And responses have.
Do you think that there has been an increase in the nature of things such as gang activity
which would contribute towards a market increase in sales events. Now we know that you have
gang. Yet. How hard. Has that. Increased. Hugely in the last five years.
Again has it actually increased or are we just more aware of it. Thinking about it. I think
it actually has increased because I think that big gangs in London the cities have kind of gone.
Well you know.
I think perhaps that there's been so much work from these big cities on gang and and
people being exploited in these big cities. There Conaghan all we're a little bit scared now
because we know we can't really touch them because they're being watched or whatever they
think we're not locked in Andover funny. Let's Let's home in on. Know on those young people
because. They're not. They.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse257
Just say I'm sorry. Yeah I know comedy. Yeah.
I can't get into words mission of life. Yes. Yeah. They they see and I'm. That's it. That's
it. Yeah exactly. And I think that there's.
There's so much that goes on in the big cities and so many things out there that are
fantastic for young people for support for help that we don't we don't have down here for funding
you know whatever that might be. And so these gangs almost untouchable down here.
Yeah absolutely. I think that it is becoming less and less. There was a Ken safeguarding
board released paper five years ago almost to the day. And basically every time we have a
problem with it it's fine. And then within those five years.
Massive massive is because people issue especially with the issue get on and cricket.
Yeah yeah yeah. My transcripts and all that sort of stuff that's happening people are now coming
down here because it's almost beyond. Yeah no one really cares what goes on. Does that make.
Yeah completely. Of Carnage is take especially. Yeah absolutely. Probably the most prevalent
area I've ever seen. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And because they put so they slide a few years ago with
immigration service people as sex offenders. And.
Well when I when I when I I just it wasn't I was put when I first started safeguarding at
St. George's there was this big sort of big meeting with all the head teachers and they like the
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse258
demographic of funny specifically Clifton Vale and showed where all the children's homes were.
And then when there's another overlay of where we're releasing sex offenders and it was like
almost almost next door or on top of. And you kind of go.
I mean to put that in perspective and to play devil's advocate with that. A lot of sex
offenders aren't child orientated so they wouldn't be placed on licence if they and they're actually
yeah if they were a child if that was there.
Yeah that was there that sample or whatever and however what it does that mean that
you've got all of these people without basic social outcome. Yeah that then kind of come together
and form these rings because they're not yet was as that but it's basically a culture. And then you
freeze your pants except for them live in poverty in communities that we have they've come from
diver and whatever because they clean off the docks in the late 80s 90s there I've worked on
there. We get people from London I work for patients is like part time people from London they
can't place them anywhere else. Matter is six yeah whatever. They just shop in London. You've
got with this culture of unemployment and everything else that just breathe. Yeah. We used to
have young people from metal that's so rich and residential. Young girls 16 mental age of eight
or nine. Really really. I mean when you say vulnerable this girl was like super came for severely
abusive background lives in a children's home and never had any of that. Not very intelligent
either. She would just think that sleeping with people was because that's what she's known. And
she would go on every night every single night and would find a Damar guy down the sea from
drinking vodka with the right to man. I just think that that you can't do anything about no know
once they reach 16 17 especially in children's homes you don't have any parental responsibility
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse259
toward them they kind of just go off. Now she lives I don't know what she's doing now but she
eventually went to a halfway house supported living assisted living. She's not in there anymore
she's either pregnant or she's involved in. Yeah wherever she's involved you couldn't do anything
for her and it's finding a way now to. Just before that even happens before they even get there.
I'm glad to say that Arthur was fantastic. Now training for stuff like that where they they they
mix. Yeah. Everyone is aware of. Everyone is trained strange. Yeah they have to be super
absolute. They want to get that way. Diver. Yeah. With schools and with primary school.
Definitely made police specially PCOS because PCOS eyes are probably the ones that if your
mother stray you're going to see absolutely.
It's like in schools today. Yes exactly. The ones that are on the rap. Yeah yeah absolutely.
Kind of like the smaller ones one or small group et cetera.
Yeah. Leaving. Yeah. The ones that they really feel like yeah. And even on a distance.
But the younger teachers as well. Yeah. So like I know when I was at St George's which is ironic
actually.
Just why am I never to uni some of the you would like to follow me around a cricket so
should we. Oh yes here. Love. I am very old.
Yes it is even talking. I talked to him like the younger teachers because students feel
more calm. Yes.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse260
I agree completely with what you say. But at the same time it's then also getting to watch
trying if those younger teachers and actually the response but they have done more often than
not. What's that conversation about one of our younger teachers there actually is off sick at the
moment. But she is getting lots and lots of students come to her exactly the reason she's young
she's friendly she's really nice but she's struggling with that herself. Because I have had to go try
and train in and. And and she might not want to deal and hear those things.
It's actually I think now in teacher training is you regardless of your job role you can't just
come if you're not you'll know it's your responsibility. And I think that needs to be prevalent in
what goes on in that state to train in and I don't think it's not. I don't know. I've been qualified for
ten eleven years now so I can I wouldn't I wouldn't want to comment but I know when I was
trained in did I did I even have a child protection session.
So I did a G2. Yeah so did JT pay so obviously I was at school for the majority of the
time I oversee a much higher protection training because I trained stories at St. George's.
Yeah so did did I have any with anybody else tried to Christchurch. I don't think I did.
I'm wondering the reason that I was thinking I could check that when I get back to you.
Yeah I can just talk to education and see what the stuff who's lying because he just J and teach
first all those roots that do teach because we haven't made the first job yet.
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Honestly it's ridiculous. I mean it saved me. Yeah absolutely. And yeah I can double
check because I don't know. I went through I was doing it and school was direct as well. Yeah I
yeah. I don't know but I would imagine. I hope so. Yeah I could say you've got such a B. This is
it. Absolutely. But I see it as you come into the school you work with anything to do usually she
responds Yeah yeah I even I even in my row where I'm here if you display something is my
responsibility yeah to do something about.
I know my recent DSL training that I did my refresher training about a month or so ago
and it was kind of like about staff have to be aware that they it's not just about 9:00 to 5:00 in
school if they see something at the weekends they have a duty of care to report that. And I think
Joe I don't actually think that is perhaps prevalent now because we are quite a young team but I
think there certainly are a few members stop have the attitude of or I'm not a teacher on a
Saturday.
And that is that's a whole different ball game that come back to teaching used to be
potentially when I was younger a respectable thing we had a really good link and really good
connection with your school and your teachers and everything they cared about you as if you
were like they were surrogate parents because you were with them all day eight hours a day.
Now because I think it's come from where there's been so many things people like me get in
trouble. Yeah. Or that you can't have that relationship because she's inappropriate so is deemed
to be inappropriate. Say where before I used to get this home teacher you know because I live
quite far older yes don't you imagine that now the uproar this this doesn't go on it doesn't like
that you know so.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse262
And from the school's point of view yeah. So I would say that here I have sometimes
been concerned about how staff do conduct themselves know anything inappropriate what I
know it's inappropriate behaviour but nothing that would be deemed over. Oh yeah absolutely.
And I think that some staff here are not aware of what that um what situations they are putting
themselves in.
And yeah I know I know I have perhaps why is that. And I think to come from St
George's to here by all Poles apart in terms of everything.
And I think that if two of the mixed and had found a middle school would be damn
perfect. So is this quite past storm run school.
No. Is it the office and part pastorally run. It has to be it physically has to be because the
amount of needs that are kept from getting older.
I just like thinking now you know I mean look and passionate about it but it needs to be
because of that because of the needs of the students that we have. But Pistole is not respected
compared to curriculum.
That's interesting isn't it. So whereas if you ever experience harbour Academy. Yeah. So I
worked that very brief period of time and she adored him because it was complete pastoral. Yes.
They could not impose curriculum. Yeah. Children. No. It was insane. So it was literally a case
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse263
of they were effectively counsellors or councillors every single day of our lives. That's what we
did. Because if you didn't get past that initial barrier there was no teacher finally. Absolutely.
And then you are hundreds of Georgia's where it was completely demilitarized.
Literally. I mean look I know.
They were awful. Well yeah yeah absolutely. I really have a bit of a grudge against them.
Slightly yes they. Yeah. And someone from that's that I was like well fair enough they're not
reaching greys but they're looking after their damn kids. They care about those children.
Absolutely. I mean they do this same job just so they you know they would get those kids a cut. I
mean most of them are short. I mean yes 85 percent of them. Those kids are coming in not
having had any breakfast was sick not having any uniform because they they couldn't afford any.
So they would feed those children clothes these children and then get them into life lessons and
then lessons they were falling asleep because they've been up all night do whatever they want to
say you know when I do that.
I only did one last week actually when I do some of the training for new staff or whatever
but but that it's my biggest thing and I say Oh my God if we get these kids into school and the
hey one time I don't really care what they wear where if they're not on time. That's probably
because their mum and dad have been up half the night on the on the sauce or doing God knows
what else they've been wearing there's been domestic violence about to take their four younger
siblings to school and they've turned up 10 minutes late and that their hair the hair.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse264
So we need to exactly explain get what they need at night. I have got completely I've
done didn't it and whatever else they went in there was she. Are you. You're in achieving great
say hey what they say is unfair. Those I am actually in school form you know whatever was that
they were off the street. Yeah absolutely. You know there will be a stay whatever. Yeah I know.
I would always if anyone know where people go got harder or whatever is called for comment
but it's more like mine. That was I had me. Yeah and they went Oh yeah you know I was like
Yep that's how I would choose any day. It's funny because you know that the old head for
Georgie she came from them. No I don't think for I don't if she left there and then went to see
George's but that's where she is. Well she she started it and it is a thing then. Now when it was
the Rams because it's the Rams Mexico previous to that would you believe she was. Yes that is
old wounds lines. I'm exactly the same and I probably shouldn't say stuff on a cold day. Because.
Private Children home and foster company CSE Champion
Interviewee But children's services so it's obviously a residential arm and a kind of
special educational arm as well.
BT and that's the school in eastry..?
Interviewee Yes a primary and secondary provision. I think vocational stuff as well.
BT OK. Thank you. And so then. How long have you worked at [ANONYMOUS]
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse265
Interviewee I have worked at [ANONYMOUS] for four years.
BT Okay. And where were you before.
Interviewee I was freelance consultant and worked in university as well.
BT Okay. So in [ANONYMOUS] have you only been in this role.
Interviewee No, I started there's none you're reviewing officer which essentially we have
obviously a set of carers that we support train and develop, then look after the looked after
children. So the reviewing office's role I came in to set up a system of kind of reviewing them
annually. They essentially have to be reviewed every year in terms of how they're performing in
their role how they're safeguarding young people haven't gone after them promoting their needs.
So we essentially were putting in place a new system to do that. So combo safeguarding and
development really.
BT Okay. And then you branched into the role that you're in now.
Interviewee Yes because previous I've done lots of different roles and similar consultants
are doing lots of different things. So that was a step back into being employed if you like and
then this role I'm doing now is has grown essentially nice.
BT Is that in response to a need or is that just now.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse266
Interviewee I think. Well the previous there was a need for the previous crisis manager
left and then it was a natural fit really in terms of my background. The practice ...manager's role
as two managers in the organization they've a registered manager who's kind of registered by
Ofsted and kind of should be taking over some of the whole organization and then my role is
really to kind of deputize a management team but also in terms of practice development getting
involved very much in safeguarding and supporting staff supervising staff looking at training and
development working with carers where there's difficult issues or challenges disciplinary issues
that kind of thing.
BT Is very interesting. So I see my involvement is CSE. And I know that there is a huge
amount that goes on in the southeast area that's kind of why we're doing the research itself. Can
you tell me about your involvement in it and what kind of.. what involvment you've had and
what kind of you've seen firsthand or what you've experienced.
Interviewee Yes so my role one of the roles is as perhaps manager as being the CSE
champion for the whole organization. So I don't know if you've heard but Kent children
safeguarding board have a CSE champions forum which they set up a few years ago ...which
essentially is to bring try to encourage all local organizations that were children and young
people to have a champion figure. I would say that this is very popular to meet together regularly
in like a multiagency forum really to share good practice, share intelligence, we get the
police...The M set and the C set teams share their intelligence down to kind of what. What. Kind
of projects they are working on or what particular lines of inquiry but also about local areas. So
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse267
we'd often haven't actually met this year yet but we then get intelligence that was often around
this kind of built up areas. You're talking Dover, Folkestone that way you're talking Margate
Ramsgate Thanet and then often up into Maidstone Medway so it covers the whole of Kent, so
you get that kind of intelligence that you could share it with a new team and kind of raise
awareness, is also patterns in terms of looking at patterns of behaviour of children are they likely
spots. It's those places where people can gather together it's places where you've got place where
people keep warm and dry takeaways. The classic McDonald's in various areas are places where
kids can keep warm and dry and it's attractive for them to be is then a magnet for those that want
to exploit them really so there was a really good forum to share that kind of information about
good practices going on.
BT And how often do you meet.
Interviewee Normally every few months. They are very perhaps every three months
there's a bit of a change at the moment because in terms of CSE it's very much just seen as a
stand alone issue or very much focussed upon is the place to have oi, you know the forums and
the funding and the awareness and there's a kind of. A. Broader sense now of you need to see it
within the context of vulnerability. Wider. So you're took gangs wider exploitation and CSE as
part of that. So I think they're looking at whether we broaden that forum a little bit but it was to
have the same.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse268
BT Now I've split into three. I'd like to ask you first about your perceptions. Yeah your
personal perceptions and not your agency's, but yours. So what agencies in your geographical
area speak that you've worked with. Do you believe to be responsible for dealing with CSE
Interviewee Well essentially I mean it's when you've worked in this kind of field for.. for
as long as you have you know it's got to be a multi agency multipronged attack and it's got to be
something where people are communicating because the danger is when, certain areas get kind
of isolated and people aren't focussing on them. Often within the statutory services previously
very much focus on where children are out in a regulated way so schools things like that. But
actually looking at the intelligence you get. It's about parks it's about town squares it's about
places where people gather and then that means it's not just about social workers youth workers
you schools police it's also about know local taxi firms that your district councils it's everything.
So I think I've seen that personally as well as professionally.
BT That's a really interesting perspective because something that's coming out very very
prevalent amongst all agencies, is about multiagency working but no one's actually specifically
mentioned other community aspects.
Interviewee Yeah I'm asked a bit I've picked up through some of the kind of forums have
been out and some training events where you start sharing about what you're doing. And that's
been a big thing I know a lot of. There's been no focus on taxi firms district councils kind of
going around take away you know really reaching out into the places where these kind of things
are happening. So I think it's good.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse269
BT Yeah. That's brilliant, thank you.
Interviewee Well I now I can't go near a takeaway without personally you know my
daughter's six she's never going near a park !
BT So when we're thinking about the geographical area how well do you think that the
nature and extent if the CSE is actually understood. So you've got your understand. Yeah. How
do you think other people are getting that point.
Interviewee I think it varies isn't it. Let's face it I think it depends on what you're hearing
and what you're seeing and even kind of people in the public see some headlines in the news and
on the local news even. But actually they often say it's not , that must be in the rough area.. or so
that's you know often it was fun it was a big task force that I've been it and a big focus there and
obviously the pattern is that people then move on whether it's gangs whether it's CSE to where
you aren't getting that attention from the police and from those kind of services. I think it's a
mixed picture. It's difficult when you work in a case it just becomes you're not integrated into
what you think about but kind of talking to other people outside of that field who aren't as
involved it does seem to be oh that's not here it be yeah I'll be somewhere else where we think
it's deprived or we think it's people move on obviously we know that that's not the case.
BT If you work in it you know you live the perception is yeah.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse270
Interviewee Some schools actually like that is quite interesting who takes we get
involved got the multiagency training that can see this safeguarding board put on and you can
often talk to a lot of schools really up on its in my focus. It's a shame actually this couple of
grammar schools I've come across don't know whether again it's not thought of children all these
two these types of children but the research is saying from what I can see is that they practice on
the ground is that's what people are gonna start focussing now because they aren't as clued up. So
children are more vulnerable.
BT But it's interesting isn't it because we approach several schools in the Dover and
Folkestone and the only ones up to here were the ones that were near , Yeah grammar schools
wouldn't know that we don't have that we don't have that when that didn't to literally half a mile
away know you were chosen just as much as you but your children are different. That's
interesting. Thank you for that one. Okay. So what are your personal views on the nature and
extent of it. So we've got to be misperceptions but how bad do you think is basically.
Interviewee Again it's spoilt because I see the intelligence report so I personally I think I
think the vulnerability to it is high. I mean there's a difference between children that are
vulnerable to a high risk of compared to those that are actually exposed and that's something we
kind of balance in the work I do. But personally I think it is proper. I think it's very prevalent.
And then those those those that are looking to exploit children young people will... they're
ruthless.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse271
BT Do you think that anything's changed in the last five years because some of the
reports that I've been looking at five years ago there was a report brought out that you know
there's not that much of a problem. And then since then oh no it's a really big problem.
Interviewee And it's always difficult when it becomes a hot topic isn't it because
suddenly there's there might be scare stories or there's something a lot of money and funding and
what you're saying not just in research but in practice and boots on the ground. Yeah. But I
would say you know the more awareness is about raising awareness isn't it the more awareness
people have or are putting the pieces together the signs the safeguarding board have a toolkit that
I share. I'm sure you yeah. But I've obviously looked at other tools as well, but the more you do
that the more you pick up aswell. What we found was with our young people we don't risk assess
everybody automatically for CSE in terms of using the tool kit. I think in our residential homes
they do but it's a slightly different demographic of young people that are more likely to be higher
risk whereas ours come from a broad kind of background or different ages if you like. So
sometimes what we found was when we started using the tool kit was almost every all of our
children would take most of those boxes but not necessarily because of it being directly about
CSE. So there was a bit of a balancing act to have. So we weren't labelling all our children. The
similar signs you know the vulnerabilities, missing episodes, struggling at school so it's good to
be aware but almost not to label a child straight off and it almost becomes unhelpful. Yeah yeah.
you need to unpick a little bit more and tease it out and risk assess over time right. Yeah that's
right. I think that's a good way to do.
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BT Otherwise you will end up with everybody said race and therefore we can't do
anything about anybody at all.
Interviewee It's all just too high risk. Yeah.
BT Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. Okay. So, that's your personal views. Now I've asked this
kind of a roundabout way. Has there been an increase in the number of potential victims. So
where do you work with it after children. Has there been an influx of that that you know of or
you've seen a trend in it.
Interviewee Well on one level looking at referrals of children coming in. I'd actually say
that trend is almost perhaps this is about where the focus is now. Gangs are a massive focus
because it is all interlinked but that's kind of almost the new focus of the funding is a major buzz
word. I think in terms of referrals I think we've seen that they're talking more about gangs now or
vulnerability in its widest forms. Maybe they don't want to pinpoint exactly where that is. But the
same time we're certainly seeing ... influx of children. We're certainly identifying it. I wouldn't
say it's such a massive influx that we're overwhelmed by it. But it's definitely something you
need to be aware of and alert to.
BT In terms of your demographic. Do you have a lot of children that are coming from
higher risk areas for example.
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Interviewee Some some sort of do you get a lot of referrals from London and different
London boroughs where you might see there's a higher risk of exploitation vulnerability here and
that is flagged up. Then we also get referrals from all over the country. I think part of it is that we
shouldn't just assume it's about London boroughs and that's perception I think yeah thinking oh
there must be coming from you know the rough streets and everything else.
BT But then again we do know that within interlinking of gangs and county lines ...
Interviewee And we certainly see that in terms of you know especially Margate rams and
also Dover Folkestone that you've got those they're just too connected aren't they. But it's
certainly something so obviously a lot of our children are linked in some of the residential kids
and other they what you find is that they they find each other and then the vulnerability you
know they exploit exploiters find them. It's like a radar
BT And I think that's something that I was personally wondering about with and. We
talked about county by county lines and gangs from that. What were your thoughts surrounding
the current nature of criminality in the area and how that relates to CSE but your experiences of
it.
Interviewee Well I think there's still we still try and battle or I've certainly seen young
people being criminalized and being seen as not seen as victims of this but perpetrators now
obviously young people can be involved in the criminal process and the exploitation process. But
again still theyre victims have been drawn into that something from my point of view personally.
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It's that danger of criminalizing young people and not seeing them as vulnerable victims that
need to be protected. And I think that's that's critical and I know that's been a big part of the write
back from rather than the different reports is all about you know the whole point was they were
seen as some child you know even using the terms and everything else. And I think that's still
that's still going on and people say look you know we're seeing antisocial behaviour we're seeing
them being in and just being really concerned and anxious turns into their criminals they're
antisocial.
BT About how we're reforming police to deal with that and the law in itself because
sometimes police officers I've spoken to first hand have gone. I wanted to treat them this way
because they are about the law wouldn't allow them to.
Interviewee Yeah. And I think we're getting better with the local we've got to C set team
over. Overarching and the local M set teams have been in place for about 18 months now....
October 17 they started missing and child exploitation teams were then more involved. And we
worked very closely with them when we have young people particularly they've got lots of
missing episodes. But also if there's just concerns generally I think where they're getting
involved they can then liaise perhaps with the police officers on the beat going out and dealing
with these young people so you start to see a few shifts but they're still quite prevalent attitude.
You can try but no absolutely I think that's the dangers that those young people are being
criminalized.
BT I agree. I something we're seeing quite regularly in terms of police officers.
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Interviewee And often then if you might think because normally when they're mapping
out these things we should hold you. To the new strategy isn't it mapping these networks which
sometimes seems like an impossible task to really. And then they've changed and is always
moving always dynamic. You sometimes worry that the focus is on criminalizing young people
and actually they've identified some of these adults. Because there's not enough criminally to
charge them with and take action about they don't know what seems to actually be addressing.
BT So off the bat else you've obviously worked in a multiagencys before where police
are involved. [Yes.] What's your perception of how the police actually see as a culture as people
worked with. Do they look at them as criminals to be identified. Or do they look at them as
children.
Interviewee I think it's is mixed. It's more mixed now. I think there's a better
understanding. Maybe the police are mixed with obviously we're more involved in people that
are specializing.. They do talk about perhaps battles or not confrontations but discussions they've
had with other officers that aren't as clued up in this big program of training for the police. I
think there's always gonna be a little bit of a culture of quite a bit of a bit of an old school feeling
as well. I do think these local teams which are a focus for people like us or other agencies. It it's
nice clear process that you can get to know them. They get to know the kids well it's working
well. You actually feel like intelligence actually is being shared and children aren't being seen as
criminals in quite the same way. So that's a positive response.
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BT Yes that sounds great. Yeah actually that's nice and from your perspective of working
with the children and linked with that that's rare. That's right. Yeah. It's just not always. I mean
we've had some positive feedback from you know about it afterwards. How about some
positivity and might be something you could feed into as well. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. So we
talked about the increase. Has there been an increase in the nature of offending. So for example
gang activity which you'd contribute to the marked increase in CSE. Now this is obviously more
geared towards police officers. Have you seen many of your children being involved in that or
have you had any kind of been involved with county lines drug gangs.
Interviewee A few or there's question marks often for us about perhaps kids that we
worried or on the edge of... I think we are quite. We have to match carefully to what foster carers
obviously whoever else is there. So we are quite cautious in that initial approach about who we
think are the right children to fit with our families and then fit there and succeed that at the end
of the day. So it may be that we're not taking the highest risk in terms of using residential they do
take you know a higher risk further young people or they're dealing with more complex needs in
some ways. But still I think we're trying to focus on producing that. From what I know is still
more in terms of young people getting drawn into the periphery rather than. But then there's also
young people that you know vanish disappeared go missing and you worry they've been
elsewhere because you don't know. No absolutely. I mean that kind of unknown.
BT Has increased over time you can get it whether it's awareness or actual increase. So
we've been there four years. I do wonder and often not knowing the full figures in terms of the
police activity and again they say you know they're trying to encourage intelligence to trying to
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encourage also reporting then does that mean. Well they probably couldn't say really just that
mean there's more. I mean actually we're just starting to take measures to protect them for sure
which is a good thing. Awareness is often a starting point of that.
BT Okay that makes sense. Yeah it does make sense. So that was about your perceptions.
This is your responses okay. And so as I say everything is completely anonymous and that's
when it's your personal responses. So how do you within your organization actually work with
other agencies tackle CSE. Now you've spoken before about these kind of groups that you meet
and you share intelligence and multiagency. Is there any other ways that you maybe informally
maybe formally kind of work with other agencies to make it smoother.
Interviewee Yes so there's the forum is very much on that kind of broader levels was not
individual children it's kind of built in relationships knowing what services are out there which I
think helps. And then on a more individual level I think it's about building relationships at the
end of the day you get to know the key kind of people in the schools that are working with these
children within the Mset teams within the local social work teams if they've got if they're from
the local area or they have a local social worker for some reason. So I think it's all about building
relationships sharing information and. Not being defensive.
BT Can you expand on that.
Interviewee Yeah that's fine.
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BT Let's say when you talk about being defensive is that because you've come up against
facts.
Interviewee At times yeah there's often a way in lots different organizations when you're
trying to work together it's almost this isn't my responsibility or you know we haven't done I
think wrong If you're suggesting a different way of looking at something or like you know we're
talking about criminalizing if say a school or someone else wants to call the police in as a
punitive measure as a disciplinary punitive measure rather than thinking well what might that
behaviour you might. He's called police and. Is normally a symptom is communicating
something we need to be part of in that broader level. As an independent fostering organization
the challenge is that we're not the statutory service. So in some ways they have more pull. So our
job is very much by influencing suggesting identifying using the tools and the strategies
everyone uses. But there's an element of needing to be quite sensitive and intelligent I suppose in
how you do that. So you're not creating defensiveness because as too exists amongst different
professions and different organizations. Yeah.
BT I mean the reason I ask you is because I spoke to someone a few months ago who
was very much information his cave. But then I ask are you open to sharing information. He said
Well no no no know that's not that's negating your whole point.
Interviewee But generally I think if you do in the right way you can move that forwards.
That's what we're trying to anyway positive way. Yeah. It's trying to say it was just putting the
barriers up but how can we navigate.
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BT Yeah. To get to the same conclusion again evolution everyone signs say shut
obviously and also it's an understanding of information sharing I think. Yeah I think we're doing
some training on that a little while ago talking about you know we'll get hooked up all
confidentiality in this GDPR and everything else. And they didn't want that to become a barrier
to actually multiagency information sharing to protect children. Absolutely.
BT So at like channel meetings and things like that. I know that GDPR as had was a big
thing get high. Yeah. And then eventually it doesn't matter. We're protecting a region at this
point if that stays in these walls it doesn't matter if you need a quiet word have a quiet word. So
when we talk about your agency how effective do you actually think. These meetings this forum
these relationships how effective have they been?
Interviewee I think there's always an element of there's lots of busy people out there with
their own agency priorities focuses. And that will always have an impact on how helpful they
are. But what does come out of them is a kind of feedback into the police feedback into those
that are shaping CSE policy and practice in the area and also nationally because they then take
those things back and are involved in those kind of national debates. So I think there is an
effectiveness to it. I don't think I would. Find enough time to dedicate myself I don't think it's
helpful or actually effective. So I think yeah and sharing good practice I think has been a really
good idea so ways and means that people are engaging with young people. thats often a
challenge obviously our focus is on foster carers and support and upskilling them at the same
time. We have worked directly with children as well. So is about how we engage with them in
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terms of community safety and understanding. So we've developed kind of some community
safety groups of different ages so we're not calling it you'll come into the at risk CSE which
would be great. These things happen to see this happen but you know we're talking about how do
you keep yourself safe. How would you do it right from younger children. Duty in community.
Yeah. So community safety record is okay. Usually is but that was kind of tossed off within the
team. It's very much a self generated really. But part of it obviously is it's it's about their
development all around. But it is a way of start to build that kind of awareness thinking through
without scaring them.
Interviewee Yeah I think we'll try to look at getting something set up soon for another
another kind of cohort for older ones so see. And again it's difficult. The younger ones tend to
come to a group at this fun and some pizza and games you know finding a little bit finding the
hook but that is always the challenge. But now I mean we're trying. Yeah I no it is. No it's been
quite a success.
BT Is that an internal thing.
Interviewee At the moment. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
BT Okay for the stick to question I know go off tangent I say here is quite a personal
thing. Do you have any examples of successes that you've experienced. I know that's quite broad
isn't it.
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Interviewee In terms of protecting children from CSE obviously ...and it doesn't sound
like a success at the start of the story but we had to think she must have been like 16 or just rising
17 in one of these areas identified by the intelligence reports as a real key area. In Thanet, it then
turned out that she'd been sexually assaulted. Now she didn't understand that in terms of CSE but
when we unpicked it and got more information out for example she was traumatized and then
everything else became apparent. You know there was boy she kind of known but they were then
known to. Get that sense in a. More organized kind of older male. So obviously you know a great
start to this story but actually she remained with her foster carers over the next two years. That
kind of experience a, the police did kind of pursue that or tried to I think just showed how hard it
is to actually investigate and identify perpetrators in this kind of situation. But the success really
was that she was supported over time as she can cope with therapy or any of those usual things
you think or have counselling or victim support. But with the support of her foster carers who
she had the existing relationship with she was able to work through it. She actually you know her
risk taking behaviours the missing episodes getting drawn into parties at people's houses she
didn't know there are no males other young people that she was you know drawn to as friends
that were involved in these kind of circles and being drawn in themselves reduced gradually over
time. So when she was 18, you always worries that point of 18. Where she was going to go and
she moved into kind of semi independence and certainly the news today wasn't there about the
vulnerability of young people as semi-independent commutation um... it's not a crisis to face it
but actually she's managed to make steady changes reduce her vulnerability and has actually
moved into her own her own place. So it's a real slow burner and started at a really rough point
but it was a really good example of that gradual. This isn't necessarily about big wham bam
you've had an intervention. Yeah and now it's your better again and you're safe. It's about seeing
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that it's steady and slow and it's people that are consistent in your everyday lives as well as the
interventions from the specialists. At the same time.
BT So when you to what the family that being the turning point the love and support of
the foster family and what kind of support did you give them going through.
Interviewee And that's the..I mean often from our point of view obviously there's
training around in all our carers in training on CSE for a number of years now. And gangs and
exploitation more widely. But really it's again it's not our ongoing support of them. Over a period
of time. Enables them. To kind of contain. Really enables them to then hold a young person
that's traumatized and lashing out. You know putting herself at risk of certain points and it just
enables because what we often find is where a young person is really in crisis foster carers can't
always handle that and then they give notice and their child has to move on and just to the point
where they're the most vulnerable they're suddenly people in residential or being put in some
semi-independent resource or just with strangers that they don't know. So I think it is about isn't
that more unfashionable broader sense of just working with people day by day and offering that
support but I think again it is about supervising social workers who know the family know the
child know the network professionals and then it is about communication and not giving up too
easy. I think that's the point. The challenge keep going even when you think you know it's the
next missing episode or it's the next this or the other Yeah and it can be draining and sometimes
we have to accept that people can't do it. Yeah but I think our role very much we see that our
team is about. Containing and giving a secure we used them to secure a base model for our
practice. OK so very much based on attachment resilience. So we almost see our role as
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providing that for our carers you can then you're in a position to provide to the children.That's
the ideal.
BT That's what it sounds like you're doing. You have successes.
Interviewee There are successes.
BT I'm going to ask for the non successful ones the less successful.
Interviewee I try to think of a specific example. I don't whether this is not a success or
not in terms of that young chap. He wasn't in Kent actually southeast London. We have a few
carers in southeast London which is interesting as well. So I see a different approach and
different networks of support and he'd gradually been with his carers as a long time complex
needs but been there a long time. And he just started gradually getting drawn into all the classic
signs of coming home with unexplained gifts and showing different types of behaviours and
being very evasive about where he'd been and all of those kind of classic signs for exploitation
CSC. You know you never fully know exactly what's been going on. And I suppose the failure
for us when we feel like it's a failure is when we have to make that decision actually in that
scenario. We can't keep that child safe anymore. So we have to really strongly advocate for this
kind of a drastic measure which is moving a child..away away from the network. So it feels like
a failure because you know you've worked all those years with those carers to keep him in his
local community and all networked in. So on one hand it felt like a failure because we haven't
been able to pull all the interventions in to help him manage that either worry about lives. It isn't.
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Obviously we want children now how to keep yourself safe not theirs. But it's not very effective.
We try and help them to have those kind of skills and ways of managing. But at the same time
it's not about them they've failed to keep themselves safe which is dangerous dangerous
language. It can slip in in a multiagency team the group in that story is we had lots of
multiagency meetings and networking and essentially every service in that local area that could
be there support him was in place. So the point was that there really wasn't the next option. So
he's actually been placed in a long way away hundreds of miles away in a kind of wraparound
unit that specializes in helping young people that have been at that point. But at the same time
the danger is then is that paralyzes you from taking that difficult decision and partly that's my
job. Then it might be to say I think we've done this. We've tried all these things. That we've
done. We have done is actually as much as we can. So then even if it feels like a failure for us
actually it gets to a point where you think at some point we're either going to get a phone call and
he's been the victim in terms of being injured. And assaulted. Abused or he's going to have been
drawn into here into that. And when you get to that point you just think we've tried absolutely
everything and everybody else has tried absolutely everything you have to get somewhere safe.
Yeah. Yeah. So if he feels like a failure I think it's that point. Because you want to get you get
into these kind of roles to help children. And I simply naively but this sometimes comes a point
where that doesn't feel as though you have to be successful you have to. Yeah. And that's why I
tell my team that I need to take that away and still rack over a little bit. But no I mean the good
news is this he's making a go of where he is and he's a talented young boy play music in all sorts
of other things was getting all those opportunities away from the very structure away from
infrastructure and away from those connections. So hopefully that will help him break free.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse285
BT And you just you've done the typical thing when you go to interview and you've
given like a false negative.
Interviewee Sorry. I think it's an actual negative because sometimes we might not see the
end of that yet.
BT If you can't, that's fine. It's just about understanding what you guys see.
Interviewee Sometimes we might pick up a placement where that child has already been
the victim. Right. And we're trying to look out. So maybe you know maybe these things are
working at the moment in some way in that we're picking up and trying to manage things but we
haven't had a young person that has been with us. And then we can see you know as kind of
become a victim clearly. But then we've not been able to kind of share that forward really to take
that one. Yes. I didn't plan that.
BT So when we've I've asked a lot about multiagency..So when you do you have an
examples of problems that even encountered always spoken before about barriers to information
sharing is there anything else. There. Was yeah..Ok so we spoke about successes which will
promote agencies we've spoken about the barriers in information sharing. Have you experienced
any other kind of barriers. Just give an example was my recently. You said that actually attitudes
and general personalities can sometimes be. Almost like people have their own egos and their
own ulterior motives. Yeah.
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Interviewee No I've certainly found we certainly found that a face saving any
multiagency kind of work to be honest. Yeah we always tend to get the people that their office
you know stop being so P.C. or these two are not victims they're just being naughty. Although
you know they're being abusive they're being you know all of those issues. So that can often be
and I'm even to still get it with the police.
BT How do you deal with that.
Interviewee Well normally, Well I think the most recent example with the police you'll
go passive since staff reached a 40 missing episodes.
BT She in foster care is.
Interviewee About to leave okay. And fortunately. Yeah but anyway we found that again
it's not a specialist teams quite skilled but they shared some information that was all the different
communication the different shifts that are trying to find her and make contact with the when
she's missing. And I think it probably overshare the emails where they talking to each other not
thinking about what the audience is so you can still see some of those patterns of thinking. She's
really frustrating. She might do what she's told you just seeking attention. She's leading us to
merry dance. She knows what she's doing so that can still be a case but it's not just out of school
sometimes can be quite. Then you wonder about what level of training they've had and if it's not
just the teacher if it's the head of a person there's actually their main focus is academics. What we
sometimes find is then again these children are being difficult sometimes element they're going
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to affect all figures at the end of the year because I'm not going to class. So what their results are
going to look like. So you do get some of that or that they need to follow the rules or they're out
yeah kind of policy so it can be very individual. Lastly people are all working. I find my group
was a really good multiagency people around us. Again you might have some silos my health if
you get camps or those kind of health service professionals involved again they have a very
medical model. So it's branching out that we're trying to look optimistic picture so similar issues
to many of our small change team working to be honest I don't see anything specific for CSC or
just switch attitudes and Tom's professional attitudes understanding it you know the social
workers or the wishy washy you know it's seen as an issue but it does. Yeah but then this is
brilliant professionals that are really on board and we've seen some fantastic kind of joint at
work. So it's it's not all bad at all.
BT You're very positive about things.
Interviewee I think as has the children's services as a whole there's certainly been I mean
not my times freed up for a start and you know people are then looking I've done disseminate
what's I've been to these forums is sharing that information amongst senior management team
also the kind of practitioners flagging up good resources we've subscribed to the national
working group membership programs kind of access. Yeah they're kind of additional more
specific resources and an idea.
BT Do you have stuff to do with CEOP as well?
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Interviewee Yeah we have CEOP ambassadors in the organization so in terms of what is
a big league online CSC initiatives are very much focussed on on the ground and local. But that's
a growing issue. So we are organizations freed up people to be properly trained to CEOP
ambassadors and access all of that. I mean in terms of resources not free training in Kent and I
get my team to go on as much as possible and some of that's been around we've just had some
Marie Collins Foundation and they should have just got some funding to do some work. We can't
do in talking about online safety but also looking at exploitation and CSE as part of that. That's
been really positive. I think there's a lot of focus on upskilling people and giving people the time
and space to do that. So that's probably the main way that we do that. And also putting time in to
kind of our team practice meetings and then freeing up people you know if there is a real issue to
focus on that's probably how we resource it in terms of actual hard resources or jobs that people
job ready so is about upskilling the people and then yeah. And time. So we do specific training
for foster carers and CSC. Now I think it's time to refresh like that starting when I joined in 2015.
So I think the next focus is actually making sure that we're actually reflecting what's happening
now and what the research is indicating now and changed. So there's always that focus too. And
also you know we say everyone has to do that training but that's keeping it refreshed in different
ways. They can't keep going to training course all the time because we have a lot of training
courses they need to do. You work in the residential. You know that but it is about how we keep
sharing information keeping it in the forefront. Gangs there are doing gangs training this year
which obviously comes in within exploitation. So we're look at how we draw those connections
so they're linking all these bits.
BT And who....So is that when you say it's in town. Yeah. Who runs that?
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Interviewee We have different expert trainers. So we normally most of our trainers come
from outside. So we kind of have people that often this people have gone freelance after working
in social services or working in the police or kind of locally in different organizations. So we
tend to use people who are currently doing kind of gangs and exploitation training with a chap
that's worked in kind of Youth Services in Kent for a number of years and then is consulted all
over the southeast. So yeah again it's quite a challenge in terms of finding trainers and that kind
of input really.
BT No not no. And so we're coming toward the night. What do you say. How well do
you think we talked about the actual amount of resources that you guys have got. Yeah. How
well do you think you're actually prepared to tackle. When I say tackling assaults are aggressive
doesn't it. I mean in terms of working with it ongoing how prepared you feel.
Interviewee I think we're quite well prepared. I think we're quite proactive. I think the
key we've seen before is keeping up to date knowing how local services are changing. I mean
even the forum is changing into something broader. And I think the date not danger but we need
to be aware of making sure the CMC doesn't get lost in general concerns as well as not seeing
something so standalone that we shouldn't see in its wider context in terms of being ready. We're
always mindful of all our children a risk assessed around CSC in terms of that they have a risk
assessment obviously for some it's their low risk they're some of the vulnerability factors but
really it's not a pressing concern but is aware of that and updating that if any kind of themes and
patterns come up. And it is then about I guess maybe the challenge for us as an organization is
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse290
that we have more young people that are at risk off rather than actually getting to the point where
we're saying they're subject to. So maybe that is our challenge to really reflect on that really.
Yeah. I think you know people have got the knowledge we kind of know where the services are.
We have a multiagency approach anyway with everything. So I think it is about to speak
continuing to be mindful really and responsive positive.
BT Just on very positive I must say in a good way.
Interviewee It's got to be realistic. Yeah it's you know young people are classic you
know potential victims of this. But at the same time we can't wrap them up in Cornwall and some
of our characters struggle with that. We do as well saying you know what young people have got
to start going out on their own at some point unless it's a real reason why they can't. And they
need start having unsupervised time and building up that kind of knowledge and we'd be remiss
if we didn't promote that. But you're always balancing that risk with who they're coming into
contact with who they're getting drawn into.
BT Otherwise you run the risk of actually..
Interviewee That they're not prepared at all.
BT Exactly
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Interviewee Yeah. So it's a real balance. And I think sometimes you have to
acknowledge that there are risks at play and we all make a you know fine tuned judgment and it's
never us on our own. You know the end of the day, we're not their corporate parents, but I have
to say it's my team you know we're working with whoever that corporate parent might be
whatever local authority is legally responsible for them. We need to be working with them
influencing them supporting them in what they do. But at the end of the day they make those
some of those decisions and that is how we manage that.
BT When you say you're working with the parents. Yes. Do you work with the children
as well. Do you make them aware of the decisions that being made about them?
Interviewee Yeah, or foster carers do. I mean when it's when you've got children the
place from Kent. Obviously they're social workers are much nearer geographically nearer. So
there will often be more directly involved and see their children more often. But we often will
step into that role. We've got young people place required by distance and we actually often get
to know our children better than their local authority social workers do. Traditionally fostering is
very much to support the carers and their social support child. But we've practiced really these
days is we're doing both. Working with the carers but we're also directly getting to know those
children. Some of those children their foster carer social worker and my staff are the social
worker that they know and trust some of that's been there consistently. That hasn't changed
because often local authority social work teams are very high turnover which can be you know
safeguarding risk in itself in terms of institutional memory and knowledge. So we try and step
into that role. So yes we do work directly with a lot of the children. We'll definitely see them on
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a number of occasions. If it's a specific issue we'll do that. We have a health promotions worker
as well who is kind of she's trained in sexual health but also in all of the lots of different areas
they're about promoting health and wellbeing and sometimes sure she's not social work trained
but she'll come in and you know especially if there's a young person that's very low on
competence or perhaps I've been through you know situation that they're vulnerable she'll come
and do school direct very specific. I work with children so yeah we do yeah it is it's more than
historically fostering agencies would do. Yeah. Which helps because you know it's about
knowing the whole family.
BT We've spoken about training in your agency, I think I've lost quite all questions about
it as I'm interested. Yeah. And this is an interesting one. Do you think there is not professional
inquisitiveness about CSE. And when I say that not just in your organisation.
Interviewee Now I think it's definitely growing. I would probably say I mean our big
generally, as a whole are catch phrase this last year has been about professional curiosity
generally across the board but that includes about children's safety while they're out and about
our young peoples you know what's going on there bit of a traditional... not with us necessarily
but generally a lot of different fostering organisations and young people's organisations. There's
almost a relief you know foster carers, Oh yeah they're out they can be independent now yeah
they're not actually asking questions about what they're at what's going on. It's almost a thats
alright, I've got this spare time which is a dangerous game. But I think the training and I think
general trends and research about the importance being crucially curious and open to other
hypotheses and open to other reasons for behaviours and on what's happening definitely we're
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seeing a lot of. We've got a real focus on it for our staff but also for our foster carers. I think
generally it's increasing. I think all of this work has been on raising awareness about CSC or
other issues has held that you up skilled people by them think OK well I kind of know even so
professionals or people that work in the sector they haven't had that kind of training. If you can
give them those kind of toolkits or checklists. They're only a tool you have to use your
professional judgment even if it gives people a confidence thing. Hang on this little red bells..
you know like something You know if you know our child coming home with unexplained this
or gift money chase sudden shifts I think previously crisis focus people might know about it that
all up together to hear what's actually going on. I think I think there is more professional
curiosity and I suppose I wonder if people are more confident now so that yeah before yes I think
so is permission to say yes. What is going on here. My question more. No it's fine. Yeah. It's it as
a troubled child that's how they'll go and steal stuff or they'll get given stuff. Right now it's got a
name. Yes. Kind of I think that language. Yeah. I'd like to say some of those tools and obviously
the national working group has some tools as well. KSCB have been quite big on doing that.
Yeah sometimes. Oh yeah. There's a lot to be changed out there. And you have to wade through
it. Yeah.And they acknowledge that as well. They've been working on trying to fine tune,
streamline..They can use those tools. It does give everybody some sort of framework. Yeah
they're very accessible. Some of them are designed. They have. Some broader ones so the idea
was to move to some sort of quite straightforward checklist that anybody really could pick up on
that ring some bells through to some of why. It's more about an assessment of a professional
judgment. Never quite finished that piece of work. I can see we'll go with what they've got.
Yeah. I don't say we kind of you know we use those and then we use stuff from the National
Working Group as well especially things like boys and CSE its very focussed girl wise. That's
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another interesting time that kind of gap and that's been you know more interesting to challenge
people start thinking about it's not just about girls.
BT Yeah what's your experience of people's perceptions of that.
Interviewee I think it's harder. I think it's easier for them to see girls as being victims of
this. I think often then the boys are seen as some perpetrators or part of that network of being
perpetrators. So we've had to do a bit of shifting and that's partly I want to look at our training to
make sure we're really reflecting. That and our team are pretty hot on it. So I think we've got
we've definitely got more boys than girls. I can tell you split at the moment but we just need to
make sure that even in those general conversations about risk and support that we don't almost
automatically categorize CSC as yet. Yes it is a female issue.
BT Yeah that's something that when we run our interventions recently for informers and
that was one of my main focuses was not victimization in one way but also in a few ways.
Absolutely and I mean it just goes to show you that people who turned out were girls because
they're the only ones that the teachers thought thought might be. Yeah pretty much be able to
help.
Interviewee There was a national working group stuff was really interesting on that.
BT We used as Bardardos. Yeah yeah. They've got a big campaign by videos and things
to do with boys. Yeah some of that as well which was really helpful. Yeah. I had to explain to
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the teachers I had to get what I did I was like prepare myself. Boys me they are lost. I. Asked in
that which I can understand because it comes down to the whole sexism in general
characterisation and toxic masculinity. Now we are starting to shift that now. So that's really.
Yeah. And it's nice to see that you're recognizing that you want to be right.
Interviewee You know you still have to you know push.
BT And that we have to do that. Yes. I know I and I do understand it. Brilliant thank you.
Okay so closing question. In an ideal world what did what do you think should happen for
organizations to successfully tackle CSA fraud that has brought miracle question I know what
would you say. What would you do.
Interviewee What would I do. So I don't know but there's I think pressing that I think
we're not doing. I think it would be about having the time and space and I mean the ideal would
be that we have more availability to do that kind of direct work. We're talking about limited
resources always limited people is limited. There's always crises and everything else that we
manage. I think the ideal I think we've got trading can always be developed and honed and I
think that would be one thing you know that we have the space and time and perhaps resource to
invest in more and perhaps more training for the young people themselves. And input their. Put
more resources into that. You know.Yeah I think part of it would be having more kind of direct
work hours that make sense amongst the team more space and time to spend that time even if it's
not perhaps for children that are directly exposed at this point. But I think if you're protecting
children if you're building their resilience you know we're talking that's our practice model
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resilience attachment secure base and all of that. If if you can start building that confidence it's
those protective factors that you're mitigating against their adverse childhood experiences and all
those kind of risk factors that they take. That would be my ideal well to hopefully resolve a few
more problems. CSC but I think that would be where we haven't you know because you're never
gonna have as much resource as you want in that area. So we talked it now but to be able to do
that more widely. Do you know see that you do that preventative work would hopefully
strengthen their capacity to you know be safer and be more engaged in other things that are more
protective and just feel more confident and more able to know who they are and what they're
comfortable with and not as prone to exploitation that would be my ideal as my blue sky
thinking.
BT It's interesting that you've come at it from the perspective of the West arming the
children as opposed to tackling the gang.
Interviewee From our point of view we're not. I know the police obviously have different
responsibilities and are looking at of trying to reduce that. But from our point of view I think it is
about trying to strengthen and support the children that we're looking after so damaged and
traumatized. Of course they're magnets to all and had to walk down the street and people can
spot it and like yeah is not a beacon. So from our point of view I think it is very much about
trying to just get water. I think you know an officer continued to up skill our staff and foster
carers. You still have you know those kind of good multiagency relationships. But if we could
put more resource into children's supporting the children when you set about training the
children how would you go about that. What would you do and what do you do I guess. Yeah I
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mean I guess obviously we have these groups and you know be able to quite spread
geographically right from Dungeness and the hot new Romney it's kind of around the coast really
all the way around Folkestone Dover. Do you find it. And then up into Medway and then
southeast London in Essex right round me right round only a few in some of those places but
some being able to. That's a challenge for us is that we're not all in Kent and you might want to
put groups on but if you know if you've got kids there in Essex you've got them in dungeon X
which essentially went off furthest west. Carers are. It can be difficult to do that group work.
Ideally you would do in that kind of sense where they can learn together and kind of have a
supportive group logistically but logistically aren't. Which is why we often then need to do
perhaps more direct work individually.And normally we're not saying they'll say right we're
going to have a session about CSE today we plan and and you know talk about through you
know and try and make it.
BT I would be really interested to see what you do. Yeah. Yeah exactly.I get it. In terms
of sharing information. What. Yeah.
Interviewee And again it's balancing then that with all the other pressures and all the
other course you know top priorities and everything else is always that challenging.
BT What about before we get a couple of notes just to kind of pick up on that. I want you
to come back to you say you spoke. We spoke before and you talked about. You mentioned it
about it being like they take it to policy but they take it nationally someone you're working
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group. Yeah. Do you think. And do you see a difference in the way that Kent and Medway
operate as CSA in comparison to what you know about the rest.
Interviewee I think Kent and Medway has been quite a hot spot and they've been quite
honest we haven't got a number of the names of a proper police name their investigations will
only add all those bits. We have quite big focus obviously that was the big focus rather erm and
round and round that way with those kind of initial things but I can certainly see I feel being
Kent Medway. There's been quite a real focus when I've been perhaps liaised at conferences or
I've been at national events in other counties or perhaps less urban areas perhaps aren't quite
there yet in the same way or have a different or perhaps few stages back in your price and their
understanding of it and their services you know tends to be in a lot that you focus on and services
follow in their way. So yeah I think that's the difference. I know that the Kent forum works
closely with the national working group and then they feed things into them and into those kind
of national conferences which I think is good. I think Kent and Medway in itself is quite
focussed on this. They obviously have a significant issue and like you say this funding and it's
not just Kent County Council the district council really focussed on this.
BT I think it's interesting. I'm trying to figure out what that's chicken and egg. Yes
because the money there that we focus that there was an issue about the issue on a property is
probably quantity is part of it.. bit of both. Yeah we're trying to tease apart the reason that so this
project can image why. Yes because if our links with Europe as well as drugs.
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Interviewee The impact of coastal economies that struggle and then are you know yeah
deprivation but then equally if it doesn't it doesn't. So another is I think there is an element of it's
transient. Are not a transit. London is close to London. Also close to lots of good transport and
communication networks. Also, they bring in other elements while criminal elements exploits
developments. We've obviously picked up lots of unaccompanied minors so you see the other
elements of exploitation young people being trafficked into this country and then needing now
you can see. The breadth of this. I think there might be something to do with it.
I just wonder on your take as you do get to national... Yeah that's kind of what I'm trying
to figure out. It's not anything you can completely replicate these kind of responses. It's got to be
about the context. And I do think that all areas are quite Thanet in itself, is so individual
Interviewee The powers that be. The system has invested in this.
BT It has and there is a lot.
Interviewee The problem is the period prior to that. These places have been neglected so
they're having to invest now to deal with the ongoing issues and the results of.
BT But then the other worry is that is this just a buzzword with the like. And then when
he came out and someone else comes in they've got a new initiative and they want to say no
gangs now.
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Interviewee Yeah I think it's all that's all interrelated obviously. But it's about not losing
sight of the specifics within.
BT I mean CSE is so specific but actually undefinable as well. Yeah that's the struggle
that I'm having. It means something very different. The different agencies you have a very child
centric understanding other agencies like CSC is these big interconnected that were like will
actually forgotten the child. Or vice versa. That balance between the two isn't it. Yeah. So that's
something that I'm presenting these.
Safeguarding Lead 4
Yeah. Different backgrounds really. Yeah. So. So in terms of what we look at toolkits we
use to get it that way and we would look for single parent families or looked after children or
residential care. So none of those really were FLAC. So what I would say if anything more
single parents. But. That was probably a spread of single parents. Yeah. So where did the
vulnerability come from. What what was then. Did you kind of figure out how. It happened. I
think.
Too much time on my race nothing to do. Just not going around hanging around where
they shouldn't be. You know might be getting involved with old older kids. Yeah.
It's interesting isn't it.
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We will. I think we'll talk about this more. Yeah. Well that's something that I really want
to discuss. So when we talk about demographic trends we talk about the number of victims. Has
there been an increase in different. Different nature offending so more or less shoplifting more
something else. They've been more. When we talk about social media is having more social
media criminality that makes sense I do is sending in these images things like that.
Yeah that's a great step but I think they've kids gotten social media so much younger.
That's quite terrifying. Yeah I mean they're not going to be open to supporting any policy and
they will there when they got to secondary school they will read about Facebook accounts and
things like that. So yeah. And again if I'll be monitored. And your school has a policy doesn't it.
And I find that out then. Well no one's allowed that from the first ballot. And so spell. And
actually that has made a massive difference. You don't. They're not constantly on the phone. And
then with that there's less like online bullying issues and things like in school. Yeah. Yeah.
Oh yeah. I'm not saying it doesn't go oh yeah to get along but yet. Yeah. It causes less
issues throughout school day.
You kind of focus on more. Yes basically. And I'm going to be away from that and talk
about the response to see as a savage your perception. This is kind of the response that you gave.
So how do you do that at school. How do you personally within your department work with other
agencies to kind of tackle it in terms of actually training that could mean liaising. That means
safeguarding processes. What's kind of what's your view of other agency working.
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My view of all the agents who work here says in multiagency working. So we've been
trying to guys. Do you think is a good thing do you think it works better with other agencies
involved with the schools need to be other agencies involved. You can do it on your own.
Whether that always works well. You experienced it. No way. I think sometimes.
The lack of information sharing can be quite frustrating. Can you spend. Just sometimes.
We might know something might've happened and we might not be aware that's happened until a
week or two weeks down the line. It'd be good to know when it happens or soon after it happens
you know like you say. We would watch all day hours a day. Yeah hopefully that's got better.
And it's getting better.
But that can be quite frustrating. Vice versa. Do you openly share your information with
other agencies. I'd say that we do. Yeah.
We're always on the phone. The police will. Say that we do. Yeah. Have you found her or
something. Yeah. You open links to parents as well. Does that. Yes. Yeah I think it does. But
you can't build those relationships and parents you or you're not going to get very far. Did you
find that or a GDP. End of that in any way.
Yeah because a lot of like the safeguarding stuff now. Yeah definitely. So stored online.
And then I think I think we'll know she started more this September when we get the new intake.
How much information will actually come over.
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We'll be quite interesting to see and how you can share that.
Yes this is hard to get. I've spoken at all about having meetings with people in this game
fucked up its GDP and how you can actually openly share information.
You need to share to save people's lives but sometimes there's no forum unless you're at a
general meeting or an ashram or media and then when Where does it go from there. Exactly.
That's time consuming because you get one in one place and take two weeks to organize that.
Two weeks is gone. That situation escalated and you don't I mean. So yeah it's finding ways of
was and I was interested to see as a school how GDP was affected.
Yes it definitely does. Yeah I think so when we talk about that kind of thing how
effective do you actually think that is. In tackling it. So in terms of your relationship your links
with police links you say sure is. Is it effective. That is my main thing. I think it is. I think it
could always be better. How would you prove it.
I'm not really sure. I'm not sure if I'm honest. I don't know but I think things can always
be better called my. I.
But ask your vision at the end which might give me my data to expand on that. Can we
talk about some successes that I've seen. So for example if I've been fucked up or safeguarded
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here and then its success story. Okay so one young man springs to mind who's caught up with. A
particular gang.
Who was very heavily involved in not involved in it for quite some time. I believe it is
believed that he was dealing possibly been sexually assaulted but that's never gone any further so
I'm not sure about that. Had a massive massive breakdown and spent quite some time in the
hospital. Is now medicated. Back home is away from the gang of his own doing. I.
Applied for a place for September of college so after dark two and a half years that's a
massive turnaround for him a massive turnaround.
Was he ever. Was he ever charged with. Anything to do with his dealings. Yes he was
yeah he was but because of his age it's. OK.
Passengers get good. Yeah. Yeah. Good for him. Anyway had to stay in the area to sit in
exactly the same time shit I need to completely.
Stays away from them. They must have not a massive foothold in the area. If he's able to
stay in the same place we go to the same school.
Is my thing. No he's not attending school. No not attending school. And he doesn't know
our. Fossil record. He's off the drugs. And he's applied for college so I think centre around.
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Definitely a. That's pretty. Did you deal with that one. Did you help. Yeah. Yeah. He's
one of mine.
Well I'm not sure I played any part in that. But yet it's still nice to see.
You take some solace. Yeah and he's come in this week actually in an exam. So. I.
Was reading it. Okay so the not so nice one.
The non successes or not. Okay what is still going on. Yeah still going on dealing drugs.
Missing episodes has spent time in young offenders.
Currently not in. I actually was removed from the family home. And. Placed into care.
Then went into young offenders.
And then came back into the family home to give them another chance.
Kami now away from the family home again and I believe there's a warrant out for him.
Sixteen just literally Yeah. That's not.
A great one. Where do you think that went wrong. I'm not paying any. There is no blame
in this whatsoever because it is simply a learning procedure. But where could we have some
point where that's pretty social.
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I think for him it's very very difficult because he's got an older sibling that's been
involved in exactly the same thing and is still involved yet. So I think that it's slightly different
because.
Derived from such services. Parents are always asking for help. There's quite a few other
siblings in the house. But he stormed off. I don't know if you've seen his brother with money. I
don't know.
I don't know what the putting factories could be many. Yeah. Could be many. I don't
think we'll ever know. You were really a model even nine.
I'm actually quite a bright boy.
All of them that were involved were quite broad bright boys. I think that's another
misconception is that you're vulnerable and you're weak and sensible. Actually it's the case. You
people with money CPM said and lifestyle. Yeah that's a high tension with that I could do the.
Same. I can't. That's sad. I hope it pays for it.
Does he still attend scores he conveyed.
He's not attended it and he's currently another provision but not as follows. Last I heard
he hadn't gone in for the exams. And actually whilst he was in the young offenders they said he
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have some bright so ably doing so well which again makes it quite frustrating. The last time. I
waste. My.
Life. Oh okay. Apologies about us. Not the best one. And we're not getting what
politicians say. I think that that doesn't really apply massively here and I think we'll discuss
maybe about resources. So do you think that your school your academy has enough resources
into tackling CSA so intensive training intensive workshops for the students. Again I think to do
more what should I do. Currently.
So we've had outside agencies come in and deliver workshops on different things. Things
like I said agencies like that were done workshops with the children. Bob.
It's hard if you don't want to frighten them. You don't want to overload them with
information. But at the same time all they prepared and all do they know I know.
What do you think. No they probably don't.
What would she would be giving those online pictures. Would they be.
I mean the argument could be made that they probably still worked because at the end
there is peer pressure is still children and they don't understand the consequences and children
don't generally understand consequences possibly and probably even if they knew they were we
do know that it's wrong. We don't know the consequences of what that means. We had a group of
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young people come up to us and we tried to give it the stuff and I talked about these images I
talked about sending nudes to be your boyfriend and I said it's illegal. And they were what was
my body I could do with it.
I said you're under age therefore you don't seem to realize what's inside it's out it's out
there and have a hold of that like it's not difficult to get hold of it all it takes one stupid boy sent
it to another group chat and that's says what he's called and it's done your life is ruined and they
don't study the criminal aspect of it I by you sending that song and your distributing pornography
child even if it's yourself you're still doing it.
And they couldn't fathom that they understand that it's not great. Yeah they're doing it
because of it. And what it could really do. And there were some girls in that class who say you
know what. How is it contends. That. It needs to be because they're doing it and they're going to
get in big trouble or they're going to get really hurt for it. So it's. 22 I've got a daughter tonight.
You know it's. Advice but yeah I think your potential and the parents being slowly as. Well. So
but then we've got this age old thing of parents now think it's teachers yes you're home now. And
they do it all ages 4 out that's your way out. They think it's the power that the teacher's
responsibility to almost parent. And I don't see it that way. And I think it comes from hiding you
still have values in your child resilience as well. To deal with that and to say no to things say no
to your body like being touched or anything with it you don't wanna say yes to boundaries and
respect your own boundaries. This is what we try to instill in the children we work with but they
can talk to children. Now I wonder if Laura because they don't have that you think about parent
figure very often any attention is good attention and they're just seeking and to work in a
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residential home for athletics. And we saw. Time and time again with young girls that you know
you have no parental figures whatsoever. So why now. And the minute they get any attention
from anybody male or female that was hit by really parties and they would do anything for them
and they would then go of Scotland and do whatever you know what they're night. We have
some day now but we didn't have time. It was a case of a drive on the streets and try and find
them and you find them in a shelf somewhere swigging vodka with a bloke that you've never
seen before. You know you go 60 the comes in the parents I think you're right about that which
is part of the reason why I was surprised at the voice that you said were involved in that. Yeah.
Yeah that sounds like they've had not the typical background for gang involvement or CSA
involvement. Really. What we're doing is trying to figure out and I can escape for a little bit. If
you could generate more countering CSA activity it's very worded very pleasing isn't it. And
what would it consist of. So if you were planning for this school and you were trying to counter
CSA what would you do.
I think there needs to be a lot around the images. You say that not. No.
Well they're aware they know it's wrong but they don't. They just don't. I've spoken to so
many girls about this.
I'm trying to set a target you know once it's out there it's out there and they're like Yeah
but easterly today. Oh yeah. But when you say no one asks in it since.
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I think there needs to be more awareness around that. Yeah. How do you say when do
you simply mean explaining it to them. Or do you mean giving them some sort of tools to deal
with them. I think both Yeah. I'm not sure what tools should give them to deal with it.
That's where you guys come in. Yeah. There you go. I think both.
And what age group would you. I think that's hard because I'm afraid they are younger.
You know they're coming in at 11:00 far more aware of certain things than they should be and
not aware of other things and.
They're just so vulnerable. Eleven.
I'm not sure where you'd pitch that because I think like you say Post 16. I mean they're 17
18. Hopefully they've already got that knowledge but they happen like you said because. Yeah I
think second year. So.
I think first G is need something. Yeah. Well about before that were primary school.
Yeah definitely.
Definitely.
So what do I think the old ones say it might be of interest to you. They do targeted
training for their foster children who are in foster care with them and they do it right from the
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age of six. Obviously different. Yeah. Very very. But they make their way from the age of six
what's tablets at six they have tablets they only for like they're playing Minecraft where you can
talk probably where you can have this interaction with people but they don't know what that
means. And they do it all the way up and it might be something that your school could
potentially be involved in when we're involved in it more about targeting different age groups
and how we do that.
They should just come back home.
Definitely. Yeah that might be something that you guys. Yes. Yeah. Because then it was
one of the primary schools around here that feed into your school.
Yeah we're getting more more children. So. Yeah. And. We'll talk about training. Do you
think there's enough of it in your school for you guys to stop.
What stops a or site specific. I would say staff as a whole.
I think it's such a big I think safeguard in such a big area.
Everybody does the basic training. I don't think it would hurt people.
I was like yeah it could be more. Yeah yeah yeah it could be. Yeah and the more
awareness you've got.
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Yeah. We've asked for before. No. No.
Oh personally. So from a personal point of view yeah it's pretty good. Like if I.
If I see a course that I think is relevant. Yeah. Put the name down and go. Yeah.
We do do. That's why I said as a whole school whether humans like the safeguarding
team from its like team point of view. Yeah I'd say yes. We can always do more like you say but
there is a lot training out there and if we apply we generally get on it.
So is that case. It depends. Yeah. Because when I got my date I said Yeah yeah I tend to
things to do and things don't always say they can take on board and things like that.
So all DSL trainings or done with safeguarding board.
And yeah we've done external last summer we did a really good one actually where quite
a few of us when it was gun training so it was previous gang members that came down to the
area.
More about when. So I guess but that was really interesting. Really good. You took
things away from you. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. And even if he's just increasing your
awareness. It's good to have it.
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Yeah for sure. Do you think that sometimes an increasing awareness can also be a
dangerous thing because it's almost like it almost is used in the wrong ways. It's like a basic
amount of knowledge for general staff and safeguarding leads for example that then they're
spoiling things in different in everything. Does that make sense. Yeah possibly. Have you seen
anything like that. You had a more prevalent reporting right. Same from general teachers this
year.
Absolutely 100 percent we've talked about this the other day. Yeah we have. But I don't
know if that's because.
We've got quite a few to St.. I don't know if people are more aware now or if people are
more cautious.
I don't know what that is. That's a combination of things but it's always best we're on the
side of caution is never rewarded. And if it's nothing it's nothing.
I think the army should it come to that from our perspective and research is that they can
be like Can I have reporting bias. So it's almost a case of like people hate crime war form I said.
Then when the serious ones are lost in that industry that makes it yes.
I think that depends if it's good.
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If it's not harmful the child is just an observation from a member stall then it's never
about thing is it. I would never say Psycho was about this. I think it's a fantastic thing that we
when it wasn't private schools and I was younger definitely no. And because I know when I was
at school that would have been flag immediately to safeguarding and that was our name. I mean
my twenty seven issues I wasn't that guy but now it's slightly increase in our point I think
children are the safest they've ever been within the school but they're also the most fun. They're
the most vulnerable externally they're my safe in school yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's like mimic that in
other agencies. Yes. Sam says that we knew the same things to school safeguarding police
officers. Police officers say it's criminals. Still the policy hasn't changed with the times. And
that's my that's my personal effects from seeing what I've seen doing the research on it. Is that
the. We've moved on in terms of we understand that children that are is all victims the policy in
the law doesn't reflect that. So we've had police officers before say that their hands are literally
tied.
But they have to charge them. I don't know that I was I was at a meeting a few weeks ago
for a comedy and there was a warrant out for arrest of a young man and he found quite a few
things that shouldn't have done. And the parents were actually saying. Why is he not being
prosecuted because they're concerned about that we said and they actually think to give him any
kind of chance. They feel there's been a lot of empty threats. He's not Dolph boy. You know
when he's you're going to go to prison. He doesn't really take it seriously. And the police lady
that was at that meeting.
Pointed out to parents and he's still a big fan he's being groomed.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse315
So I think you do that mean that the thing you say that's the issue is that the culture the
perceptions from police officers their personal opinions on this they are victims.
However the law is still I mean the fact there is a warrant out for. The law is still black
and white. You commit a crime you're in trouble whereas it needs to be more grey when it comes
to I believe CSA and this is kind of what we're working towards is understanding the psychology
of it and understanding the victim mentality rather than they are in here. They've done these
things they don't even know they've been a victims. They're acting like you know people it's
whatever and your hands are tied by the law. Whereas if they were a bit more grey you'd kind of
work with them and explain to them and try to help them understand that they're doing right now
and that all the things that I think this particular person that they think is God's gift or whatever
they're taking advantage you know they're doing something bad to the criminal not them. Does
that make sense. Yes. And that was my perspective on that. And I think parents also don't
understand enough parents I don't understand.
But then when parents get that information from. Exactly. Exactly. But in this case back
does and it's training. I mean where do you find that stuff out. I mean it's there. That's the place
where where is it.
Well yeah I guess I'm an academic so it's kind of like I'm like is there. Yeah well I
wouldn't say anything about your child's primary school do you see lately. Well I think I don't I
know I told my friend in New Hampshire.
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And irrelevant at that way.
And you know Dr. surgery we have leaflets on CSA but the basic idea to cap face look at
this and as a parent I do know about it because of it. Yes that's what I mean. Yeah but then how
would you how would you do. Because what we're trying to figure out is whether the systemic
issues are coming from.
Do we do we tackle primary school children. Do we take secondary school or do we
tackle the teaching element. We talk with the police force really. Parents we need to get do we
need to get them the community hall and explain to them what this is do it. But then how do you
do that because we don't have communities anymore. You stay. You don't have hubs where
people go.
And I think a lot of people don't want to don't want to bury your head in the sand.
But I believe that kind of thing was going on on their doorstep because if they felt like
that fourth generation as well they don't want to think that their lovely area that they've grown up
in has those sorts of new issues like gangs gangs is something very new to the south east side
very late last year. It tends generational for example. I mean I'm not from here but my parents
generation wouldn't have experienced that. So therefore. These generation and. When that
doesn't happen here because I didn't go for it it's very new and.
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It's something that we do need to deal with. Maybe that's the way. That's actually a point
of thought for me since I came parents together and joint parents. Yeah I know actually this
weekend there's something going on in one of the local community halls one of the moms of so
the see 17 C C G sixteen the parents to set up their own.
He's a fund raiser and everything now fund as you know is going to be hard. No. It's
interesting. Yes. They've actually got. Supplies.
They've got to talk to the community hall this weekend where they've got guest speakers
from previous gang. That kind of thing. That's open to the public and parents like Hey. So that's
trying to raise awareness isn't it. I mean one the engagement would be nice. That's the same. I
mean it's straight away might provide an invitation for it straight away. My immediate thought
was six clubs on a Saturday.
I'm not really sure. People people will do that.
Always what's batteries online webinars isn't it. Stuff like that we will call a roll on.
I can ask you for your name and your e-mail. Lynn Humphreys.
And my role is mainly special needs administrator but I'm also part of a psychic. How did
you get involved in safeguarding.
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Initially I started off like we will do our safeguarding for our basic safeguarding training
or not. I started doing the find in a little bit find in safeguarding that became bigger and bigger
and more I did the more interested I became. So they put me off my DSL training.
How did you find out what the training. It's quite overwhelming initially but yeah fine
now. Yeah. Yeah. Did you did you learn anything you didn't perhaps realize before and think
before. I would say yeah I probably did. And I think the refreshes are really good because things
are changing all the time. Yeah. Yeah.
I'd say I did. And so can you kind of summarize for me where you've been in the
academy or in schools in general for life tenure.
I suppose I've been here for the last ten years. Yeah initially as a teaching assistant. A
part time teaching assistant and then that increased to full time and then I got more although that
was involving special needs children I got more involved in the admin side of the special needs.
So hence why NOW I'M NOT IN CLASSROOM.
I do the other in the mainstream special meetings and then you've ended up with me. And
it kind of ties in nicely with the safeguarding to be s I guess right now that's fair enough I think.
And so in terms of CSA You see I got your day so I'll try it. Yeah. What is your involvement
with that since your training or before your training. So. I'd say it's much.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse319
More so now because social media. I think the increase. In decent images that kind of
start grooming. I just think that's getting bigger and bigger and they're getting younger and the
kids are getting younger and younger. Whereas before we may have seen it in the older ones we
tend to see it in the first year especially not the image side of things. When people requested
images and that sort of stuff. Also the gangs side of it. Had students have been involved in.
Local. Gangs. And. Whether there is CSC or and who actually knows. But yeah the two kind of
tend to go hand-in-hand and it has been rumoured that with one of them there was some of that
going on.
So yeah in a case of quite a bit of doubt and we'll talk about the gang side of it at age 17.
Yeah. So we're talking about. Yeah right. So what do you think your age. The agencies that you
work with. You don't have a more disciplined routine do you. I thought the scope but you do
liaise with other agencies outside. Who do you think in your area is responsible for tackling
CSA. So please. Yes. Social Services.
If you want to do it alone. And we are as well to a certain point. About. And. Families.
Yes.
Definitely. Yeah. I'm not eating you in here. You know I. After this. Yeah. Yeah.
Well when I spoke to the gentleman before you and it came out that was he was saying
that the families were getting on my right. We've said things that were happening on projects and
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse320
things that are you bringing things forward and setting things. They were getting. All right the
school got it. What are you doing more. Yeah. Yeah. We should be looking at the families.
But there's only so much as a school that we can do. I mean we report that all but then all
hands are tied. So yeah with where it goes from from. Forward in it. Oh really.
Yeah. See you've got procedure having eight times you got a procedure. Yeah. And
what's when it comes to indecent images. What's your procedure.
Oh we're not allowed to view those images now. So that's something that's changed once
upon a time a child would have come in and said I've got this on my phone. But now you know
we're not asking for can be viewed as awesome looking at indecent images. So our procedure
with that would be to call the police and call the parents. It would depend on the parents
depending on what the nature of that image is obviously. But initially it's a one on one call and
you've got good links.
Yes I'll pick it up this morning again. Yes they are off by law. That's good.
Yeah. You've got that connection that relationship with the basket case turn off the states
are open to a social worker.
We call the social worker. Yeah.
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Can you block Alex you guys. Yeah. That's good. So. With CSA it's different in every
geographical area. What do you think it means in Kent in Southeast Kent.
What do I think it means. As you what do I think is important.
Yes and what you see or what we had to what do you think you see is what are you
thinking here. It's taken advantage is taken advantage of. Not to say the children actually know
what it is when we're looking at child sexual exploitation but yes it's taking advantage of those
that are slightly more vulnerable to be that through. Grooming them buying them things. Again
the images.
Drugs. Are you all of this it is something you experience with this kind of experience. It's
slightly with you because we've had students attended it I've been part of. The. Male female.
Male. Actually. Male. Student. Who was their perception usually is.
Oh my. OK. That's interesting. And what do you think extent is do you think is.
Prevalent. I think it's huge. I think it's massive. And I think it goes on far more than we realize.
She Tristan. I said What are your personal views of what you've experienced in terms of how.
It happened. So what if you kind of had witnessed. In three of how. Because when we
talk about I'll give you some background first debate. We talk about boyfriend structure
boyfriend model. So that's where you have the young girl groomed by the older boy buying
things together and bringing them in and then potentially hurt and grooming. Yes. And what we
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse322
don't tend to see or hear about rather is males being involved in how our world turned in. So
what do you think is in your favour. You say you got a lot of male boys doing that with the gangs
and you hear anything else.
I have experience with female actually one particular female springs to mind when she
wasn't a local girl she was new to Ariel she was quite vulnerable herself. And. I believe that she
was probably involved in grooming another female. Which involved older males. Connected to
the first girl. Taking him shopping line and things back on the scene then taking him to her
hometown and then wanting something in return for.
That sort of thing. Oh. Yeah. Yes. That's the different angle. Yes you've experienced that
around here.
Yes. Have been ordered to be fair. But yes. Yes. So was there every day. And what's
interesting is that came from somebody that was out with Ariel. Yeah. You know not a local
child. Childhood moved to the area and kind of.
I think a lot that came with us. So I was gonna say Do you think that's because she was
new that she was more vulnerable or no that she'd already been involved and yet she had been
involved. We know she had been involved yet again where she left off.
Yes. Fair enough.
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So when you dealt with that Oh I was dealing with that. What was the process. How did it
work. How was it fucked up two kids did you use.
How so. That was blocked off because she the other student that she got involved told
somebody. So. What did they say. And just like what kind of I think it was something to do with
the fact that they'd been shopping and she bought quite a lot of clothes and she said they've been
to Canterbury where they've been at the weekends for law clothes new trains. And somebody
said Oh who paid for that. Where did you get that. And that was how it all kind of came to light.
And I'm not sure what the outcome of that was except students no longer an area student moved
on.
So I don't know. Good. They have a process work that pays. Yes. And recognizing. Yeah.
I think it frightened him. To be honest. I think.
For that particular group I think that was quite foreign to them. It scared them a little bit.
Mm hmm. That's interesting.
Because we've seen we've seen it. We have it in the research is there. But it's
understanding. How about comments from authority figures that recognize it. Or is it from peers
and we're trying to figure out. How to get the piece. I think it depends on the student to be
honest. I mean what we have from the premise also is that they spend eight hours a day of the
day at school. The majority of the time they're with their friends. No one's going to recognize the
changes in them it's going to be random friends. So we're now trying to figure out a way that we
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse324
can kind of. Try to. Teach the friends or the peers to recognize it not for themselves to not
become a victim but to recognize it and then the other people. Taking the tickets. Authorities
says nice things already happening without any form of intervention really a good idea of what it
is.
So that's right. I'm not sure she'd willingly given up somebody said to her. Where did you
get the new shoes away or whether she'd willingly given that information. I don't know. Maybe
the wife's obvious to recognize is that if you coming in when you train your child you've got
these things in his eyes. It's.
OK. That's really interesting you. And we're looking at local trends and the demographic
in the areas in your area rates you are at the schools area and very local localized people for
several generations usually it's quite a large area. Has there been anything that's happened in the
last couple of years that's changed maybe the attitudes or has maybe enhanced CSA in terms of
that that you think you know I think social we do. I'm not sure if that's demographics.
Cause that's a general thing is an area but I think it has changed and I think social media
plays a big part. Yeah. Plus I think that's normal for the kids today. There's no use clubs. What
do they do after school. There's no where to go. So they hang out in parks and yeah.
I was talking to me before about Roxanne. A hot topic especially diver for from diver as
well. And I was wondering whether or not the maybe a more. Kind of. Attitude that we've got
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse325
now or that we've seen now because of what's going on with Brexit is changing any advise
making things more aggressive or changing kind of the way the.
I don't know. I don't. From my point of view. We've got a lot of children from a lot of.
Minorities not so much now but.
We used to be. We used to have barracks here so we had children from all over from all
races and racism. I don't really see it right. No no no. I'm not saying they're all racists. No
children within the school. But it's not it's not an issue. Yes. Yeah.
I want. I only wonder because of the area. Yeah. Yes. We've seen in politics. Yeah. Seen
the politics become more kind of racially motivated and benign. Fair enough. That's a good thing
here. And. When we. Talk. About. We talk about victims now what we care what we can do with
some of these questions because they're kind of geared towards police okay. I want you to kind
of apply it to your. So when we talk about a number of potential victims. Do you think that has
been an increase in them recently so the vulnerability may be yes. And when you say recently
will dream of last five years. Yes. Is there a reason for it. We are just seeing an increase. I think
county lines.
Plays a big part in that. What do you understand to be.
County lines. So. Inner city. Groups gangs whatever you want to spread their wings a
little further on coastal places vulnerable children children in care.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse326
Children. I've got nothing to do that are out roaming those parks and they groom them.
And are you seeing a fair amount around here. No not right now. But we have done it. It
has changed. I asked. I don't know if it's changed or if it's just. That we currently haven't got any
students. That are involved in that at this moment in time. If I came back next year it might be
different. And if you'd come a year previously here it would have been different. Yeah. And how
did you deal with that when that was happening. So at that time we didn't initially know that
that's.
That's what was happening. It was we flagged concerns around that because we had a few
young boys that were then behaviour changed. They were becoming more disengaged. Their
attendance was dropping.
They were knocking around in a group like a group together that they weren't before.
And we flagged it and we flagged it. We flagged it quite a lot.
And we were told that no there's not gangs down here. That's not something that we have.
And then one by one I think social workers became involved because of things that the
boys were getting involved in not missing.
So. And staying out late that kind of thing.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse327
And that's when it came to light that they were involved in things a little bit more bigger
than we'd realize. And when you realized that was it kind of taken out of your hands and dealt
with by police station. Yeah. To a certain point.
I mean we still are still somehow we're still social workers two years down the line
through it and we still attend those meetings with those students. You know a lot of those
students. Are actually not here. They've gone on to other schools because. They had to be
separated. It's hard to be separated or they've gone on to prove something's going on here. But
again speaking ground doesn't that prove. It. It's a bit of a catch 22 really.
It's almost like if you if you isolate them you'll make him more vulnerable to that attack
almost like. But then if you keep the mainstream I can't deal with it effectively. Is that why
you've got like a thousand other students that you know protect them at risk while they are here.
Because we we try and instill that every child is at risk every single child is in some aspect but
the fact of being a child vulnerable to it just depends whether or not they're high or low on the
scale.
OK. And I also think I wonder about what parents work a lot more now. I think children
he's got a lot more freedom now. You know they don't go home. And.
Do their homework make dinner with their parents. It's just not the way it is now. I think
I must make a difference. So you have to let children go home when they don't see their parents
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse328
turn this time on my hands isn't it. No. They got their faith. Yes. Export everything now isn't it.
See how it's got to this point. Yeah. We can almost undetectable as well. Yes. Because they're
doing everything on the phones. No one knows what's happening on all the phones. Check. I
mean parents out there. Yes we know too much. Hey that's small comebacks that later when I
talk about successes and the kind of successes.
I want to think about your perceptions a little bit more. So if we're talking about
criminality and CSA they kind of go hand-in-hand as well as the reasons that county lines about
grooming said you've got a young person you have that young lady who was grooming potential
grooming another young girl. What do you think the nature is of that personality in relation to
your area whether he's right. So the law would see that as a criminal act. Because she's. Doing
something criminal to another person. And. However she also liked him. Out of my life and a
minor. But in terms of other criminal acts that comes with that what do you say. Oh definitely a
shoplifting. Yeah definitely.
Do you get wind of that in the scope.
No not this moment in time. But like I said previously when that was quite when that was
going on a lot with that particular group of boys.
Yeah. Yeah. All the students would say it was in passing.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse329
Again from shooter. Yes. It's not whether that's because of the demographics. I don't
know where everybody kind of knows everybody everybody lives. Very close. Yeah. And yeah
they all know one another outside of school. It took him before and he said something about
where everyone knows is like certain parts of town. Yeah kind of yeah. And if someone's in a
different part of town and that's not their usual area like that's a concern for students recognize it
then they bring it to you. They're quite good off students. To be fair they are quite good. Do they
have training. Do they have any workshops no run is they just done. Just aren't good. Enough.
The usual and I don't know if it's unusual because I tend to look at professionals from policing
backgrounds.
But for me I used to be a schoolteacher. For me it's unusual that peers or the students feel
so comfortable bringing my information in and.
Police FINISHED
KM So. As I said I'll try to talk as little as possible if I'm talking too much just tell me.
The first question really is you've summed up sort of your background for me a little bit already
but how do you feel that all of your background translates to what you can do in terms of CSE.
INterviewee I think that looking policing is a whole around CSE is that my view is that
it's something that's gone on for a long time that we have not been very ignorant around and it's
only really recently we've become more aware of it. I think that the within Kent it's sped up our
awareness because of the certainly with our investigations the cultural mix and the diversity has
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse330
created an environment for it to grow really particularly investigations that we have and also
around technology as well not only led to a large increase around anonymity of offenders
certainly in the grooming stages and also the way that particularly the major offenders are that
can can happen. I think that was still high group but we're doing doing our best. I think that. It's
one of those hidden crimes that we don't really know a great deal about and with the same as
drugs drugs have been around for a long time actually our awareness of it is is minimal we know
very little about it, same with gangs same as CSE. So I think that the best experience you have is
by working with people really you're going to find out more about it and by actual exposure
firsthand exposure around it. It's gonna be the best thing for it.
KM Yeah. And in what ways does your role specifically relate to countering CSE so
what sort of stuff would you do.
Interviewee So really it's around for my role it's around the risk assessment and the
sharing of information with other professionals to my views to to target it so effectively it's going
to be a joined up approach be that with all of the professionals that we normally deal with but
actually the community as a whole I think that we need a lot more awareness around it a lot. I
wouldn't say people have tolerance of it. However I think that people's ignorance around it
allows it to thrive. And it becomes one of those crimes that sometimes is too difficult to look into
and people because of the nature of it people just don't want to know about it because since I find
that it's close to home it becomes a lot more real when it becomes a lot more of an issue. So I
think that there's almost a lot more willing ignorance. It's fine reading the newspaper when it's an
array of people from Rochdale rather than because that's not Kent but actually. It's going on
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse331
everywhere. And particularly the definition of CSE is so broadt. It can be virtually every kind of
exploitative sexual relationship around children. Erm.. and the knowledge that that's the case
would be quite frightening for people really because it's against the larger larger organizations
mostly ICG level criminality that we become aware of. But actually it's it's a lot more than we
thought.
KM So to pick up until things like you said one information sharing that's always a hot
topic. Yeah. How's that going.
Interviewee I think we're certainly much better without him being co-located. That
makes it much quicker to to share information to learn around it because we are a central team
in. The slow down comes from we actually take action on a dynamics of our team at the moment
but because we've got insets all the local teams and hopefully they'll expand in time that should
make that a lot better. And I think that although it is a national or it's a worldwide problem isn't it
CSE. Dealing with it effectively. I think we'll be better done on a local level. There'll always be
the need for larger criminality. So like level two criminality but really the victims are still going
to be local. If we can identify them and safeguard them that's good for me, that's the,main crux
that's good for me. That's that. That's the best outcomes the safeguarding preventing people from
becoming victims. It's better than actually trying to deal with and investigate the crime.
KM The local teams are they multiagency as well. Or are they more so police lead?
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse332
Interviewee No, they're just police lead . However we're able to influence them by. They
have access to our partners here or partners here. It's just we're very fortunate to be in the same
office to have a conversation around the table for people to say what you know what's your view
what you know what's your view and together we can say this is what we all know this is what
this is the risk that we put to that child or family or information and this is what we would do
about it. So that is very fortunate. The first team I've worked and we've been able to do that
really.
KM Has it been working well.
Interviewee I think. Erm, it really, our teams in an unfortunate position, well it's not an
unfortunate position we have a large investigation that has taken up a lot of our resources. It's
something that needs investigating properly because it's a serious crime. However that then
limits our capacity within this team to be able to deal with information we have straight away. So
before that I think it did work quite well. We get information we could allocate an investigation
and go and safeguarding children. At the moment there's a bit of a delay because we're having to
give it to local officers and there isn't that kind of ownership from the start where you will come
with you. Well I'm truly on it. Has been you know I mean there in that kind of ownership over
the task and eagerness to crack on and get it to the right conclusion really.
KM So when this sort of sounds like the key issue here really sort of resourcing it you
know if you had a bigger team this wouldn't really be an issue.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse333
Interviewee Yeah I think so all sort.. it is around resourcing so whether there is a large
centralized team or whether that is partners working locally quite possibly think the latter is
better although that's a bit controversial because I I work in there but I just think that you build
all of the partners will build better bonds with the children. And I think that is a big part of it
that's a big part of why they often seem to CSE because they're getting the trauma bonding
they're getting that kind of sense of family that they may otherwise be missing. And with that
exposure to the same professionals consistently I think that leads to a better outcome. And
having worked in child protection before and having repeated visits to victims I'd certainly have
a better report dealing with the same family. So my view would be to have more professionals
and police officers working locally to be able to deal with those children not only for the
consistency but also the time it's cut down as well if we got a child in Dover or that will wipe out
most of the day for us to be able to get down there to deal with that effectively and come back
whereas if it's local you can maintain better bonds of victims and suspects. And witnesses. And it
just leads to better and. Better result really in my view now.
KM And if that sort of move took place then do you feel that there would. Do you feel
that some of the issues that we used to have before would be surface in terms of not actually
having a multiagency team and things taking longer and I'll be having different goals and all of
those things that used to be problematic.
Interviewee I think that it's it would need to be set up with partners we need to work
because it isn't it is a joint issue. It's an issue that isn't doesn't belong to any one agency and
doesn't belong to just professionals. It's around and when I think of partners. I also include
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse334
family pictures of families. I include people's friends the what I think of education I think
actually the children in the school. It's a it's a community issue that needs to be dealt with as a
community rather than professionals who are always going to be seen as outsiders trying to
influence something which people don't necessarily want to change. I don't understand what
they're involved in. And so for me it's about changing the whole kind of Zeitgeist for the
community to say this is an issue. This is what we need to deal with which is easier said than
done. But there are things that can be put into place. There are things that I think that 30 years
ago which were the norm and now are are absolutely frowned upon. So domestic violence for
example. So domestic rape wasn't. It. Wasn't illegal until 1991 which I only found out a couple
of days. I was I was outraged about it just thought steel and last three I never knew about it. That
was really so. That's disgusting. That's outrageous. I look at that now and think I can't believe
that or I look at smacking in schools. I can't believe that's happened in my lifetime. But it has. So
we need that kind to influence that kind of consciousness raising around what CSE is what's
happening and how we're going to deal with it so that we people don't walk down the street see
children by a whatever shop drinking dressed in appropriately and think they're probably
troublesome children and I actually think their victims who probably are being or going to be
exploited. So for me it's around raising the whole consciousness of the community because then
we deal with them more obvious things that were. Drink driving domestic violence which were
once acceptable are now massively taboo will need to speed that up, really around it. And I think
that we're going in the right direction particularly with things around the media of raising
awareness around victims but reallythe only time it gets to because of the nature of media
reporting is when we've had a conviction. And they are large large scale investigations and are
the victims will always be. Their identities are unknown but generally groups of Asian males
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse335
who have committed these offences and people will say well I'm all right because in my
community I don't have these cultures influencing my children so I'm fine. Well actually what's
your child doing. They're online. Eight hours a day doing x, y and z. It's evolving. I think we
need to get ahead of that to safeguard those children making them aware of it. And that's how we
will stop it. Like any crime, I dont think we'll never stop it completely but how we have the best
path around it.
KM Yeah. So when you speak about awareness there's something for me. There's these
still streams of awareness. One is for communities and one is for professionals. Do you feel that
we are doing enough in terms of awareness for both of those things. Are they aware properly.
Interviewee I think certainly with the professionals that I deal with. But then I work in
that role, is massive quite previously managed the CSE Champions. So that was making
professionals who don't do or arent aware that they deal with CSE victims on a daily basis, raises
their awareness and gives them more knowledge around it and tools to to deal with it. So I think
that's great but it comes in cycles. So the team will be will start a massive amount of resources
into it and then the assumption is that momentum will carry on. Well actually you've got to keep
pushing the pushing the ball really otherwise it will it will slow down. But I still think it's been
pretty good. The nationally recognized as the highest priority alongside CSA.But then you look
at the resources that Paul has can saves and the resources poured into child sex exploitation and
that's clearly not reflected across the board. So I think within professionals we're going the right
way certainly around the safeguarding professionals. I'm thinking of schools social care.
Absolutely. That that is there and people are realising that that is now becoming their everyday
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse336
business with communities, some people have to kind of look for it because we can't make
people have an awareness of it. And I think that we can. We can introduce in PSHE lessons in
school. We can choose healthy relate not necessarily just allowances in general but him as a
breeding ground for CSA victims to become victims because things like the overexposure of
sexualised behaviour through pornography through exchanging indecent images through peers.
And I think that is creating a much more openly sexualised kind of situation. So for me it's early
making people aware of how healthy relationships work which is what social care do but getting
that into primary schools. It's about parents having that open dialogue with their kids and making
sure they're aware of that and also saying that people have low self-esteem if anything. I think
that people in their teens have too much self-esteem compared to when I was a teenager. But it's
more about value family and what they are actually valuing themselves and their worth and
realise that they don't have to. Go out and do X,Y and Z before they're ready they can live their
lives how they want to value what they're doing and if they put themselves in quite dangerous
positions and that sexualised behaviour is becoming normalised much younger then it's just a
breeding ground because this is normal for them. Yeah I think that's where the community side
needs to come in. I'm getting into schools early because then you're laying a legacy for not going
to account for immigration or transient. Communities. However you're going to get the bulk of
people within the. Making sure they're aware of what their relationship is when they're being
exploited what's right on online. And I think that. The because technology's moving so quickly
the teachers don't know how to teach somebody we have to teach the children because they don't
know all that. So I think that's something that in my view we should be getting ahead of the
game.
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KM Yeah of. Course. Right here we've answered some of these questions in between all
of this which is great but sort of taking it back a little bit. We've discussed the sort of agencies
that that should be responsible for CSE really everyone as you've just said and how well do you
actually think that the nature and extent of CSE is understood by the different agencies. It's one
thing for them to know it exists but to actually have an understanding of it.
Interviewee Yeah absolutely. I think from. The information or exchange that we're
getting from professionals it's generally generally quite good but it's more the overt symptoms
that are being displayed so, health are quite good in telling us what if some comes into a sexual
health clinic for example. They think they're being controlled or some concerns like that the very
good. Schools I think are probably the most important part because they're with the children
most at home if they're in full time education and they also have them over a long period of time
as they can see when they're getting better when they're getting worse. What the issue is around
that really. I think part of it is I don't know what to do this and to pass this risk onto somebody
else rather than going, right How can we deal with this right holistically? But I think that on a
whole the professionals that we deal with. But it just begs the question about the freshness. We
aren't dealing with because we don't know what we don't know. So I think it's certainly what the
people have the most exposure and we'll see the most worrying signs of pretty good. I think. It's
really how we can deal with that. And there's no because of the nature of CSE There's no. If you
see this do this..And that's quite right. It does need a bespoke response.
KM Yeah. Sorry. No. No no. Oh goodness no no it's all right. All right. What are your
actual personal views on the nature and extent of CSE. You know are there any trends any
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demographic trends any specific models which are more prominent than others. I think that the
definition of CSE is very loose and as I said before, can be used to describe any kind of.
Explicitly sexual relationship because unless you've got your traditional phantom running
through bushes sexually assaulted people. Which is incredibly rare I would say probably most of
it is there's not an agreement there's genuine an imbalance of power because that's how they're an
offender they've seen a vulnerability and they'll do that. So it's quite broad and I forgot my
question was to.
KM Nature and extent of CSE demographics any model.
Interviewee Yeah I think there's something larger more organized investigations been
tense all around. All the trends and in Kent are. We have a large Roma Slovak community. I
think their culture it's quite extensive. When they are post pubescent they are sexually active and
that is a cultural issue that we are in the short term it can be very difficult to influence hopefully
with the longer term. Whatever the long term will be on the more we'll have more ability to
influence that through school and education. However we have. Irish and English travellers who
have. Very. Unique cultural. I'm. Trying to say. Values and norms.. No. Yes. Yes. Which we will
still be very well we can't influence because that's the norm. So I think that the demographic we
do have a large amount of Roma Slovak I don't think that's actually reported because we don't
get disclosures. And I think that we have a real er, mishmash of what we have a lot of
unaccompanied asylum seeking men living within Kent because if the the immigration kind of
climate at the moment. And that has certainly had an influence with those two cultures mixing.
And I think that that's probably quite a trend that we aren't fully able to grasp on to. Yeah
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because the lack of engagement from everyone it creates its own opportunities. I think
particularly around education for offenders. And education for victims as well. And I think the
things that we could potentially do in schools that would have access at some point. Anyone
coming to became will come into mainstream education if they're of age and I think that that
will..will influence it. But also there's going to be the hidden CSE around online which I don't
think has any race religion creed or culture. I think that is people who are able to facilitate that
exploitation online for their own sexual gratification. There's no we don't think about quality. I
think that it's much wider now. And I think that the distance between the victim and the offender
creates more...kind of makes the offenders braver. because they're so distant from anything that
they do if they go on a bus and decide to commit a sexual so their accounts will pretty much
instantly if they're caught whereas if they're mine there's if there's any accountability there will
be a delay in here. Then make them bolder and offend more.
KM Yeah. No that's fair. So we do know sort of from crime stats and all of that but there
has been an increased number of reported crimes surrounding CSE victims. Do you think there's
actually been an increase in CSE victims or is it also just the reported numbers that increase.
Interviewee Yeah. It's it's hard to say really when we first first worked on the first
operation to work on them pretty fully but I worked on Mercy which was what I meant by it was
a CSE investigation. And the way was described to me is it's a stone you can turn over and if you
don't like what you see you can't put it back on. You've got to deal with it. I know that's certainly
true. So I would hope it's because people are able to report more people aware of it. I think
professionals are certainly better equipped to deal with it. It's hard.
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KM Yeah. No that's absolutely fine
Interviewee Really really difficult. I would certainly hope that with the investment of
education resources and consciousness raising nationally because there's been. Not only the
people being convicted and the media campaigns around that but also it's been. Saved on the
substance from moments that Coronation Street.
KM One of those yeah
Interviewee Even though they. Had a police officer involved in the CSE whichwas not
particularly helpful for us and certainly people being more aware of. I would hope would lead to
better reporting.
KM Yeah just to build on this specific thing the way that CSE is often portrayed in media
and even sort of some campaigns and what the media picks up on the most does seem to be quite
stereotypical. Here's a 13 year old girl. Here is a 50 year old man. Do you feel that we have got
the gotten a bit better at actually highlighting. Look there's all this peer on peer stuff happening
there is all these boyfriend models and all this other stuff which is not your older perpetrator and
a young female.
Interviewee Yeah I think that if we do that stuff in the case I watch very little on telly
around CSE because I work in it all day. And actually it's quite depressing. So I haven't seen
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three girls. I probably should and probably will at one point. I've been on this team for three
years and I guess a little bit of my time to keep dipping into it I work. I think for a long time
we've always had the. Or when I've dealt with people they'll say he was not a paedophile. What
does a paedophile look like. Because I'm investigating numerous people and the last
investigation I had, he went to prison for five years. Lovely was lovely because he's a groomer
and hes the sort person that you'd want to take to him because he looks lovely. He's actually a
sex offender and he was horrible and he was a serial sex offender who groomed, I only found
four. But there will be many more. So it's really around the there isn't a stereotype. But that's
very difficult to get across because they're living amongst us. erm.. I don't I can't talk about the
media or not because I don't know. But I do think that from what I have seen there are the here's
the groups of Asian males doing X Y and Z. But actually it is much broader and particularly
around the Internet. And I think that's that that's going to be the developing issue that we are
growing through the Internet and the over sexualized behaviour of children and we are creating
that legacy that it will be much more normalized. And I think that's more of a concern.
KM Have there been any trends in sort of the changing nature of criminality more
generally which impact on CSE. So you already talked about Internet and Internet crimes. Is
there any other sort of criminal activity type. Well the thing we see is if you look at CSC as an
ICG. Type so it's in an organized criminality. But for me it's always been a sideline for the
groups that we've investigated always had a core criminality. So be a multitiered ICG is fairly
involved in other smuggling or drugs. No. And the CSE really has been a sideline either whether
they financially benefited or not. It hasn't been their core revenue stream. One of the things I
used to deal with human trafficking before this some of the things that I really noticed was a lot
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of all kind of Anglo-Saxon criminals habitual criminals who would be committing burglaries or
drug dealing moved into human trafficking. I think one because it's incredibly profitable
particular on prostitution or labour exploitation at that time we didn't really see it as an issue
because our our kind of moral compass towards people have been burgled. We don't like
burglars. Yeah. This is what it's all about when actually people were evolving. Moving on to say
for example would be travellers exploiting vulnerable people too as labourers. And when that
first came across to. erm. From special branch we were having visits to traveller sites we were
recovering victims and they were saying I'm quite happy being here I get paid 20 pounds a day
and I get to live in that caravan and I'm quite happy. And they were being left there because they
were going but I'm quite happy. But they're being exploited they're not because they're happy.
Yeah you're missing it. And I think the criminality certainly has moved into that. I think that
probably still the case about. Prostitution. Because you could even have particularly with the EU
a lot of Eastern European prostitutes. They might be prostitutes in their home country or they're
being quite happy to go into the money they'll make. But not seeing it as an issue because no
one's saying I'm a victim and I and I I don't like this. So I think crime it may well think CSE is
put a bit too hot to handle as a revenue stream unless people are into it the only ones I can think
of are around the county lines gangs so they would be but generally I've dealt with it before the
sex and the sexual contact was to groom them for the drugs. Certainly in the early days you
always get them running and clubbing in order to drop off. And I think that's probably come
around again now that CSE is probably being seen as more of a habitual gang thing. Or there is
money to be made in it. I think because of the incredible amount of money to be made in drugs
where youre a lot more distant from it you're not going to have a victim saying they've done this
than the other. Yeah it's much more than it's been. But that's certainly my perception. Yeah
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse343
perception of it so I think CSE is a other than the online very young children which we really
don't deal with but it is still CSE. That's more of the issue I think because of the risk around it
people aren't getting into it unless they are in those. So yeah. Yeah.
KM Right. You've already spoken about sort of multiagency work and you know that
things work quite nicely when you're all in the same role. That things can get shared. Do you
have any sort of examples of success of multiagency work.
Interviewee Yeah. Yeah I have come to think of a good one. So we've got. A chap who's
a Moroccan chap and he has groomed a Slovak female in Kent and he's using her for drug
running and we think that's being sexually exploited amongst the gang. So our issue is what I
said.. So we want to safeguard her we want to imprison him so we we share information around
the family around all the people so we're professionals we can talk visits to her with with with
social services. And we link in with health around sexual health. We link in the schools as well.
So she wasn't disclosing while well still go missing full time education and we werent really
getting anywhere at that point. So what happened was the offender got arrested for GBH and he
got remanded I mean became aware of that and saw this as a real opportunity to safeguard the
child so we linked in with partners again. We spoke to them around what concerns were and he
was actually on to another prison so at that point we conducted further vicits, we've had the
visits we linked him with. Issue in the right accommodation with the parents that haven't been
effectively safe got to him we got him moved to a foster placement the social worker and the
allocated police officer kept visiting her and we were able to undergo that healthy relationship
work link in with schools to have a school place where she can then engage in full time
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education which she did and we moved her away from that area got into a better family
environment and got engaged in the education. So that was a good success for us. We then found
out that she was still being sent gifts through third parties from prison and that's she'd been sent
letters to him from prison which I don't know how he got wind of the address of all boys it is
linked to the prisons got hold of her phone numbers banned from the prisons. We found out that
he wasnt ringing her, an associate was that he was using the associates pin phone we got that
banned from the prison we got a hold of her prison visits bands. She wasn't able to see him in
prison and we made sure we couldn't send any postponements to her which caused issues but we
manage that with what we talked about safeguarding her and the relationship. And that's a
response as a he was in prison and I say six months but we've managed to break that bond. She's
now seen that he wasn't particularly healthy influence and she's gone to education she's set up a
new routine. So even though he didn't go to prison prisoners would be the ideal for me I always
look at that favourably because she was going down the line that would go very severely
psychologically and physically damage them if not worse. And she started her life started to
prosper. She's got. Better opportunities. She was only going one way and now she can go
anywhere she wants. So for me that was a good bond but without that he's gone to prison for 100
years which is what we all want.
KM Yeah of course. That's a really good example. Any specific challenges with
multiagency work.
Interviewee I think that's always going to be an issue around funding because it's all
comes with separate pots whereas if he had a centralized pot centralized body of money and you
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could then do that. It would be good because. The other issue is that every partner has its own
perception and its own idea of what it wants to achieve and what he wants his staff to achieve. So
generally they will have multi faceted so the social workers for Kent and here as CSE leads But
there also is a missing a human trafficking and that to me means that a third of their time is only
focus on here. So really the main thing is around direction. Yeah. So every agency is going to
have its own what it wants. Whereas if we look to the direction centrally, into it this is what we
all want which is to sit around. We also really want to do the same thing which is safeguard
children and prevent crime offences and when they do take place make sure that people are
locked up. That's what I want to divide up with partners but also. So with the prevention of
detection of offences well theres someone from school here and the things I've talked about
educating and we don't need to focus on the here and now and think about a legacy of what we're
going to do to nurture our grandchildren I'll back through this to be a blip. We want this to be
the. Jemmy Saville thing that happened way back when it doesn't happen now. Yeah not the old
that's the norm with the time and we can say Oh that goes on everywhere. Well that's not good
enough. Yeah. I'm sorry I digress. But it's about funding round the election and the amount of
resources that people want to put in. Because we're a multiagency team. However we've got one
representative from every other agency. And a lot of police officers. So the partners will always
say this is a police led team. Well to a degree you're right because we put the resources in to be
able to do it. So yeah direction and the resources.
KM Literally building on to that. Do you think that there are enough resources being put
into CSE and clearly they're not.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse346
Interviewee No.
KM So in what ways do you feel we need more resources. So is it my stuff. Is it more
training. In what ways would you allocate.
Interviewee I think that this is something that's always frustrated me within certainly
within the police is that there is an issue. What we'll do is we'll put 10000 pounds of resourcing
in for three years and then we'll review it and go "well that didn't really work" so then they'll put
20000 pounds over three years well that didn't really work. And then it will go on and on and on
forever. We don't actually achieve anything whereas if you're right. What we're going to spend
we're going to spend three million pounds. Let's get that pot. Three million pounds. And that's
just deal with the issue because be that an organised crime group or whatever by pouring
resources in in an early stage it will firstly prevent victims becoming victims which is the main
thing actually. It will save money in the long term because we need to think certainly in the
police, we think by how much the police spending will actually look at the knock on effects of
how much we're spending on the sexual clinic how much we're spending on health. How much.
Why are we having to employ people who are inclusion managers in school because these kids
are truanting because we're not actually dealing with the issue that's still the issue. There will
always be kids who go who are truanting but will be able to deal with it much better because
they're pour those resources at an early stage with CSE will have to be prolonged. Can't just go
through for a year we're going to deal with it and I'll be cured. That'll never happen. But. I think
that the way we go about it in and the way to try and save money costs us more money and
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse347
doesn't have the desired effect. And that's very simple for me to say because I don't deal with
budgets.
KM But that's fair enough. So if you if you could generate more activity in terms of
countering CSC where exactly would you try to embed that.
Interviewee For me it's around the education side from having tried... We do our best
with CSE victims and for CSE victims and we pragmatically trying to and we do all we can to do
it. However if we dealt with them before they became a CSE victim. They don't go through all of
that shit that they have to go through and we would be saving them without anyone realising it
because it's not measurable and tangible. It's very nice time so me it would be about pouring
money into education and schools getting things diversionary projects into place which we've
had before. The Tory cuts without these clubs social clubs that kind of engagement because I
think we've missed we are now reaping the devastation of a lack of investment in our youth and
that goes across the board not just CSE it goes with gangs it goes with low level criminality and
then we talk about not criminalising the children which I think is absolutely right. However.
We're not giving kids anything to do when they do anything wrong. We don't do anything about
it. We don't make making criminals and just compounds this. So maybe education. I don't get the
non policing things I should be saying we should pour money into investigation. But if we got to
the point where we're investigating CSE it's gone wrong. We shouldn't have to be investigating
CSE because it is such a such a hot topic for the community to deal with holistically that I've
always thought if we get to the point we haven't to investigate sexual offences we as in all
professionals and the community have done something wrong. Yeah. We shouldn't be getting to
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that point. In an ideal world that wouldn't happen. But we both know this isn't an ideal world
here early. I would invest everything in early because that would stop this.
KM What do you think about training. So what we're trying to get it is obviously are in a
slightly different position because you are all sort of trained up and actually you often deliver
training to others. But do you think that generally within agencies there is enough training at
least there are enough sort of time spent on actually raising awareness of CSE and really showing
what sort of stuff to look out for and yeah it's really difficult to I think to teach it is very difficult
because we are quite ignorant of it and there's so many different. There's so many different ways
it can be completed and actually what we need to look at is from a victim point of view all these
all issues that they're since and instead of putting all these things and so on us or they might be a
victim of sexual exploitation of be a victim of child abuse at home maybe fixing this. What is
what's going on with that child. How are we going to prevent it. And if I through it how are we
going to help them and stop him regardless of what it is. Because there's so many niche things.
And for us it's really simple to go to them. You don't know anything about CSE. That's
ridiculous because it's not their job in the same way that I had a conversation with a LADDO
from a local authority and I didn't have any of their prints their policies and procedures and they
berated me for it thought I don't need to know because it's not my job. And that's that's the issue
that you people have lots of priorities. And what is our priority and should be a priority. Well
actually if you were a teacher you priority is teaching teaching kids if I went on their GCSE and
they failed them. They weren't sexually exploited were they. OK. It's not your job to do that your
job to teach them. So I think it's a very difficult thing because I expect it to be sort of jack of all
trades. That. that doesn't answer your question but.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse349
KM It does it does actually. Last question. Do you feel that there is enough sort of
inquisitiveness or a professional curiosity.
Interviewee I think with so much better since MBA we can be having worked CSE and
CP I think that the legacy of MBA has created particularly around totally from the police side.
That we professionally change professionals and I've certainly challenged professionals when I
have not been happy to ask for clarification. And I think that is it is better. And I think that with
across the board probably not not so much but very much like that stone that you turn over if we
don't hand over you haven't got an issue. We have got an issue. You just are looking at the issue
and dealing with it and particularly with families and communities. A lot of parents we speak to
don't ask don't want to know, probably suspects what's happening. Porobably scared to ask and
the manifest is an issue. So I think within the police I certainly hope that that's the case. And I
would hope that the professionals with these will.
KM Good, that's it. Thank you so much.
Safeguarding Lead 4
BT Hi of recording again. You talked about your other agencies. Do you have any
examples of successes that you've seen at the school in terms of CSE.
Interviewee From other agencies?
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BT Or from you guys where you've had children.
Interviewee Yeah sure. Yeah definitely. One girl in particular has just left. She was in
year 13. She's in year 13 now but when she was in Year 10 and yeah she's disclosed some things
and cut a long story short he's in prison. ..now. erm... That was that I think that was we dealt with
yeah quite well by everybody involved.
BT What kind of agencies were involved.
Interviewee Police. Not social services. I think it was like 3 ago years now. So I think
that there was an initial [inaudible] when she disclosed the information of what happened...and
then I think it was close because it felt it could be dealt with in school and with mum etc. etc..
BT It worked, so I guess that was a success story.
Interviewee Yeah yeah.
BT Was that a wider issue?
Interviewee . Yeah. I'm just thinking I'm just I'm just. No I think it was quite an.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse351
Isolated Case. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe more. Yeah. Sexual abuse. Yeah. Maybe like CSE in
terms of what we think. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. In terms maybe a case maybe in terms of CSA.
Any success stories would end in sight.
BT And she knows she said be on it. Oh no she did she mentioned a young boy. He
distance himself.
Interviewee Yeah okay Yeah probably yeah.
BT I mean the thing is was quite small school..
Interviewee Yeah I know you're right but I'm thinking we had we have a group of a
group of girls left now probably three years ago. And you know when. Your professional
judgment and your experience you know something happened there was there was sort of
evidence but not enough that ever could have been taken any further by the police it was
reported. But you just feel I was so involved though to this day I don't think we'll ever know
what was going on. And I think that could be the case of our young people that they're so
involved in whatever it might be that's gone on that we will never know.
BT Have you got any messages like yeah. Have you got any non successful ones but
maybe that we could learn from. That makes sense. So is he speaking and you're wrong about the
Yeah he's got the brother the older brother and then the younger brother here. Yeah. What would
you do differently as change. What would you do differently for the younger brother now.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse352
Interviewee I think we're doing anything. I think I think I think we support him. In our
day. I think though that I don't think there's enough communication and I and I. Not between us
and stuff. I actually think there could be cases that are going on with children involved as CSE
but we haven't been told that by police.
Interviewee So from the police specifically?
Interviewee Well we. Know both and social services that. Actually were deemed so
important sometimes but sometimes we're deemed so insignificant. And that's really shit because
we are expected to do these certain things and make these decisions. We go to child protection
conferences we're involved in the strategy meetings et cetera et cetera yet the information is isn't
shared with us.
BT Do you think so. I don't know where you sit in the structure because Dave. Said that
he was he's a line manager people go to attend channel yes things have you done that.
Interviewee No. No.
BT Because that's that's supposed to be the place that the information is shared. However
from talking to police officers they say that teachers generally don't attend. They've been invited
but I'm hearing from teachers that we don't get invited. So it's that Miss..
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse353
Interviewee Absolutely, And I think everybody almost is very happy to slack off other
professionals us included. You know what I mean? Absolutely. Absolutely. But I think also the
information sharing isn't even done within the same agency. So even here we have even as a
safeguard in team sometimes we're like why why don't you share that with me you know and I
think it's time pressures other responsibilities that you know it's hard it's your job you know.
Absolutely. And that's why I think maybe that the operation Willow type thing is such a fantastic
tool because that's all they're doing. You know when you look at us as a safeguard and say more
of what the roles are. You know ultimately I'm a teacher so that's my the role would say the
majority of the time I'm teaching you you can't always.
BT You've got lots on.
Interviewee Yes. Yeah absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
BT Whose responsibility overall do you think is.To deal with you said the police at the
beginning but overall whos responsibility do you think it is?
Interviewee What to do with it. No not legally but deal with it when it happens. Let's
deal with it. Everybody's parents schools social services PCSO's, police, anybody that comes
into contact with these young people really. But that's what I think anybody that's coming into
know youth workers.
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BT We're going to skip a few of these visits. What about resources and stuff countering
And the last question. In an ideal world. What do you feel should happen for organizations to
successfully tackle CSE
Interviewee Time time. So for staff that perhaps wants to get involved anyway in any
you know. So I know for example save me from a teaching point of view to be given more time
so less lessons to be involved in that perhaps social services to not be given so much case loads,
to be able to choose to focus on it. So the question again.
BT Yeah yeah. So it's an ideal world. What do you feel should happen?
Interviewee More resources more money more people on the ground like say what's
going on almost on the front line because people sitting up in an office saying this is myth that
they have no idea what's going on and I think it is a lot like we said the people that are there the
PCSO's is the TA's in school the social work assistance that they're on the ground on a daily
basis they're involved. That's that's what that's all I'm saying.
BT Anything else you'd like to say you.
Interviewee Nope Okay.
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BT So last question...in an ideal world what do you think should happen for
organizations to successfully tackle CSE. And that's not just your school , that is if you look at
Britain and you going how do we deal with this in the South East.
BT That's the question. Is a question. It's a pie in the sky. There's no right or wrong
answer. I just want to hear what your primary objective would be.
Interviewee That's really hard. I think parents I think.. I think parents need to be more
involved to reach that ideal time.
BT What do you think the outcome of that would be.
Interviewee Well I think if parents were monitoring their children's phone and the
Children's Internet access and who they were at the park with what they were doing then they'd
be far less CSE, would be far less opportunities.
BT What about the children that we know whose parents [don't monitor it] or not even
monitor but don't care about much which we know there are parents out.
Interviewee Yeah yeah definitely. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Fair enough. I think
the answer was there. Yeah. We'd have a mess. Trying to figure out.
BT Is there anything I should watch out. No I don't think so. No.
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Local Authority
BT Okay so if we'd just like to say our names, researcher Rebecca Thomson.
Interviewee Shaun Taylor, community development officer for Dover District Council.
BT Thank you Shaun. Okay so can you just summarize your background. Which agency
are you from and which role.
Interviewee Yeah, currently working with Dover District Council running the
community safety development side, basically the whole community services. Previous to that, I
got introduced to this was when I was at Folkestone and Hythe District Council, working as a
very similar role. Previous to that, I was with Kent Police for 12 years in various roles, and I
worked a lot with Kent County Council developing community safety policies, parenting
programs, and a lot around safe guarding and safeguarding training for KCC.
BT Brilliant, so in your current role, what kind of involvment do you have with CSE?
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Interviewee Currently we've got. More indirect involvement because obviously running
the community safety team, we work ... unit ... with police, social workers, health workers, youth
mental health etc. We sort of touch on a lot of community issues. There's quite a new and
increasing gang mentality within the Dover district, particularly one gang called CT17, who are
very much modelled on a typical inner city London gang working on county lines, but then
obviously with attachment with that is the victims, the people they are recruiting into the gang
make up, a lot of young girls are now coming in, they're swapping partners, they're swapping
relationships and then obviously linking in with early help with the school nursing service and
picking up victims in that way.
BT Brilliant okay thank you. So in terms of CSE, how well do you think you understand
it. Personally.
Interviewee I think it's evolving. If you'd asked me that question two years ago I think I
knew what CSE was, I think now I'm not so sure, we have a grasp on CSE and the scale of it. I
think it's very much focussed more on criminal child exploitation not just, I think sexual is one
element of the whole criminal exploitation and it's about targeting vulnerable people often, yes
CSE works across both sexes but I think we have to be honest very much like DA, that
predominantly it's still very much a male patriarchal society who are going to use females as
commodity. Especially with CSE at the moment, where it gets girls be swapped around, they'll
be abused from a lot of older men, through to sort of the gang culture and it's that vulnerable
thing you know. CSE in a certain form, has always been there and I think there's blur between,
and I'm talking to a head teacher at a very good school. It was a grammar school, I went in and
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basically said this doesn't affect your pupils, you know I want to do these programs, I'm more
targeted the more identified secondary schools, the ones where we know we got high levels of
youth crime, high levels of risk factors. And I think the line was, but how do you think I feel
when I watch my year nine pupils, they're all girls, they walk out of school gate, they're very
academic girls, they've got no common sense, and as they walk out of that school gate all I watch
I'm doing is hitching up their kilts, climbing into a BMW with a man maybe in his early 20s who
I know is not a family member. And that sort of thing to a certain point has always happened. I
mean I can think back at school when it, girls were leaving with an older boyfriend. The girl at
that moment in time is completely and utterly in love with that individual. You'd like to think
that that individual is in love with them but they're not they are probably after one thing you
know. But it's how we, if we're not telling girls in that form that this is actually wrong, because,
it gets glorified in school developments aswell. Some of the other friends say, oh wow she's got
an older boyfriend, he's got a car. Which is all very nice. But there's something wrong. But if
we've never been challenging it. Workforce professionals I think that's understanding how wide
CSE is.
BT Yeah. So your understanding is obviosuly fairly good with your background,
especially kind of in the policing and things like that. With the other agencies that you work
with, and specifically with the council now, how well do you think it's is being disseminated
within those agencies?
Well it's a work in progress. I'd say we're getting there. There's very well trained
individuals but you also have, a lot of organisations, of people you know, on a career path. I
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think the people new to those careers probably get it a lot more, if you look at a PC who's been
here, who's been in two or three years.
Once they've done safeguarding, they'll understand CSE, they'll probably know what
signs to look for, I know the common one with Kent Police is all about vulnerability. I'm not
saying it isn't but, if you look at somebody who is 25 years down their career. its that ... situation
Now we know if someone's gone missing a lot of times. There's issues, and we need to
look at what is happenign in their life, why are they running away, where are they running to,
who are they running with etcetra, etcectra. You've still got that old school mentality, oh waste of
time. Oh yeah, they're just naughty. And they're not naughty, young people have always done,
theres a reason for what they've done. But I think we need to understand more and actually look
at that and more holistic way. And I think there is some kind of coverage as well. You talk about
Thanet. You've got a lot of children's homes. State provided social care is very good, private
sector social care, is, makes lots of money. And they look after the children to a certain point but
even then knows, when I know that there's kids running away from children's homes. And if
you're the worker and kids run away, you can't restrain them, you can't keep them in. And it
gives you an easier night when that kids not in, are you chasing it as much. Are we actually
looking. I remember talking to a manager or senior manager of a local childrens care provider
who said to me, oh yeah. CSE gangs, thats just the flavour of the month at the moment. No it's
not. But I think. I think there's a lot more work we can do. And even schools. But then you set
that against a reduction.
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If you set that against a reduction in public funding where we're at, you know, a lot of
children services are being cut. Only relevant this week in Kent, the plus side is, they are
merging the specialist children's services and early help services. Now we know, I can't
remember the exact name, children's something. But that will mean a reduction. And the end line
it's meant to be more focussed more holistic. Looking to put the child at number one, but there'll
be job cuts. There's less services. The youth service I'm not seeing a fundamental shift over the
last 10 years of generic Tier 1 youth services. You know not with what it used to have lots of
youth clubs because of funding cuts. They were closed. There is no now you've come from
police youth club in every town to one youth hop district. That's only 12. And Ken you've got
Commission services but there's not as much commission in going on as there was the original
funding. If commission if you commission a service and you don't contract manage then you're
not adhering to actually understanding the quality of the provision. And then if you pay in lower
rates to youth workers where in a region you know you can see youth qualifications and people
would go to university qualified youth worker and now they can do that session work over a few
inputs of every safeguard and input you have UCSC per year every day protection input if you're
not qualified youth worker willing to engage in outreach reached kids and there's less service
that's less interaction which is fine.
When I grew up I a lot sports clubs I come from a nice middle class background and I
was quite looked after. It's those kids that need those youth provisions that don't have the luxury
of supported. Families supported peer groups and who are just as the boy always talk about the
grey ghost children. They assume that and goes through life on the line. They're the ones we
need to capture. Some of the real wealth. Which we never give up kids but some we know that
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often are very old. We know the comfort services. But it was those ones on the coast that you
know they needed this extra support. And sadly the sexual support isn't there. So you're going to
find some kind of other support. I know the ones I fear will be drawn into who will gain top issue
will see this issue because we're not doing those diversions or put in the prevention.
Thank you. You've talked that anyone who thinks about your geographical area and your
claims as District Council and you spoke about funding within diverse specifically and how do
you what do you think the problem of CSA is like. Realistically it's not high.
I think it's hidden. That's not why I say things here. Well we've got a lot of it and
phthalates to folks in its coastal town. Coastal towns of as we know we are. So there is more
increased deprivation. We have high numbers of supported housing supported children's homes
Puberty Blues properties. Now the reason property is cheap so it is cheaper to buy larger houses
to developing whatever form. You know when you look at the stats locally I mean we have no
attainment levels in school in we have low job prospects et cetera et cetera. So it's not the rosy
picture that it may be WKRN. So you've got more deprived communities within more than five
communities. Well it money but to are lots children. And those children become susceptible to
be groomed be victimized or exploited. And I think the numbers we will never admit we will
never know. If you look at some of the national crises it was only when the victims finally come
out fully 10 years later that that happened to me because if you're being victimized if you're
being exploited if you're being groomed the 14 years of age. Who do you tell who's going to
believe you. So sometimes. Control other people let it happen. Hopefully that will stop. But this
is where we need to support it. To tell people to stop it stop it. This is not normal. You know
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what people do and she was right. This is how they will exploit. This is the tactics they use. This
is how you can do it differently. If you see your friend doing this or your friends been susceptible
to this you need to open your mouth to stop talking to us but which goes slowly against what I
said is what we call ourselves services distorted. So I think we need to get better at that. And
even with education as well in education. Look at the recent GCSE logs. Academically Winton
schools doing okay but if we're not put this all services in schools where is that support come
into play.
So when you talk about housing issues and everything that kind of contributed or
contribute in your area to CSA do you think that the number of victims has increased. Or do you
think women are away. What's what's going on there. What are the trends in it. I think I think
that yes it was being that and the modelling as it was being that I think we have more where I.
Think.
It's harder. I think there's other things in life that changed things really. You thrive in
social media throw the insurgent Internet generations you know the access to online pornography
the access to you know forums that you can always meet someone who who is the same as you
but put into Google eventually you know in the old days. Hypothetical but if you stood in the
middle of the park there in the park put your hand up and said I'm a paedophile come and join
me who else is people run over for we beat you up naturally but you can actually.
Now you can sit in your own lounge and someone else is gonna say me too. So it's given
it's given access to the worst people society. Other people obviously the nature side by pulling
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that together. Then you throw in you look at someone and then dropped into some of the gang
type county line behaviour drug behaviour. It's a lot easier now to find drugs than you know in
the past. I might even might have a mate maybe up to get your joint or get some dope and you
had to know somebody knew someone to get you a. Fix. Even then you can find that little easier
these days. Yeah so we've given the intense hope and wonderful activities but it's open and I. See
this sort of life that. General people didn't have access to but people are finding it easier now.
And and then you throw in and there's a slight kernel of the middle classes are actually filled
with some of this. You look at and I try to inspire post campaign. Even though looking at history
now and you can't get McDonald's gastro or you can't go to Starbucks you don't have papers
towards me of course we're saving the environment of our plastic store but the same middle
classes who will make sure they go past a paper stone or plastic store will go to Waitrose over
the road and make sure I have their organic bananas because they're looking after the
environment are the same people that on a Friday or Saturday Night Live. But that's on shrooms
in there. They want to save the environment and I'll have campaigns but their products it's not the
first they want to do is line up. And that's lovely because at times not anyone putting themselves
apart from you know you start back in South America and all the journeys it's got out in South
America and the cartels. But even when you hear it's got to their nose by exports in a number of
different people some of them made a lot of money. But in the meantime there's kids who are
running those drugs. For the new power trainers for their hoodie they. Have been exploited in
gangs and being beaten and having debt. Bondage to the middle class person that drops off their
nose. But we're not we're not telling people they're affecting CSA. I think people think about
that. And I think that conversation will happen. There's been a few articles recently. I think the
conceptual stuff happened before you start but we all seem to be behind that.
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I mean people get hurt in that fight. Yeah. I mean it's interesting you speak about gangs
and in our area in kind of the day I can spray my area is gangs in Asia and you seeing you
increase in the criminal activity from gangs and things like that.
I think they count towards handfuls of drugs for the Senate. It's a personal experience
based on fact all of this is passed yet hasn't it. I will put scope for a lot more gangs if you look at
the. As you look at London borrowers who are with up to 300 and something identify gangs
down more. So gangs at some point is like Tesco signed to a Tesco signs was waiting outside the
door to competition union a gang to make money because it's a sexy trendy lifestyle that's going
to kick you out. And the top of the range clothing. If you're a bit older you can't get gold. Get
your Rolex is it's very simple. It's a commodity commodity base where people come in as
partners commodities. Can we have gangs we've got emerging county lines with the drug. What's
coming out. Well I think we still as such an open market and a lot of the market and the market
split between old fashioned drug users which when you look at some of the figures from that
action for youth drug services forward trusts for adult drug services they're core class eye addicts
is reducing that is that the old fashioned heroin when you then merge in to some of your crappier
coke you have middle class functioning people function people who can use a few lines at the
weekend you then got more dope issues. So you've gone you could the market at the moment is
bigger than the supply chain. So you have gangs and gangs and you realize that makes money
gangs have links with most gangs and can have links with county lines. That's where the big easy
money is. Growing. I think that's the concern. The gangs are growing. And when you then throw
in some years to put social media into generation kids are more naturally more connected. So it's
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not even a focus about that. Hang in there. Let's move that case from someone that school in that
neighbourhood. That cross-fertilization that they're jumping between gangs their share of gang
members showing young people they're showing the girls because there's an open market for it.
And I don't think we're quite the fight of how much. Is out there. And drugs has never been a
politician can cross country and this has the sexual side of Criminology for a long time. We talk
about we don't take out we don't think gang members. We don't want drugs. But we no one really
ever gets arrested more for possession. So that's fine. You can possess money supply if any
supply. Well I didn't use young kids to do it and there's less natural patrolling on the street to
catch this happening. And it's a victimless crime because all were don't report the drugs. And if
you take out too many drugs off the street first it doesn't make the price of drugs got theoretically
stopped rising. When the price of drugs stopped. Why is it the people who are addicts need to
find money elsewhere for the drug habit so that can increase. Theoretically increased crime.
It's a catch phrase here.
There is no reason right around that one. But there is the catch is you can cut off talked
about and I took a lot of it. So I think it's one bit of an untapped if drug sources are telling us that
old fashioned class users are reducing access and services but we know we've got this increased.
Market. Why are we not educating the people saying that the old fashion that's what they have
cracked your mentality of just right now we're not educating the people in a different form
saying Trump's is bad it's like telling a teenager how close by hand don't have sex that's how
people do is do you want to do it. And she told me ethical values of how bad trials are. Know if
we haven't tried this and the impact of what you're doing is affecting all this.
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I so I understand your thought. Yeah. The agency that you mentioned earlier on the work
which what do you think their understanding is as you say from your experience when people
when you've spoken to them you've had that that discussion as I say and this comes as some
benefit if the agencies are very good with their sexy talk. If you look at social services early help
they are very good at supporting victims and using a tool kit to identify someone.
And then if you take something from policies I think there was a blow on some of the
talk. Half dozen lots of them talk effectiveness in teen teenager in different times not gone quiet
looked at things on their phone and no one's watching bunking off school and taking money out
their parents brothers you know all these things kids have done for generations but now you have
to start somewhere talking about it does it help identify people at that place. I think we should be
able to look at families better without having to have a tick box on individual most of the young
people we could identify and not make a lot of young people we can identify who are more
susceptible to be seen as a victim than others. What we not do in any agency is put in the early
enough we know identify now if I make it so that if if little Josie comes from. A family end up
on the site and over you know she could have three siblings we know that one has been through
dad left home very early on she's got no father contact she's been through a succession of.
Shootout on cultural Mom's relationships months being a victim of domestic violence a lot we
know there's been some self-harm issues in the house. And Jose you know there's been
allegations in the past where one of multiple partners has abused her. Theoretically she's a very
much higher risk of becoming a victim. We know those kids but we seem to be very much.
Teapot short term based off 16 week intervention with police in you know we go to sanction
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we'll get them in federal court we've got a victim right. That's great thanks. Been the victim off
you go. We don't support victims rights. We don't for all comes the money but we're not
following people to it a lot early that we're going into it for the same pay plan. We do the
intensive work once we think the family stabilize. We walk away. Yeah. But. That's fine. We
will wait. We got a lot of hundreds of other people to deal with but there are still individuals
there. Oh we feel all better given the input now. Oh we. Tried and the word coach in mentoring
parenting and we'll have a forum. To make them the strongest resilient individuals they can be.
To actually understand what what people may try and how to deal with it. I'm not sure.
When you mentioned about the agencies and you say there are these tick box toolkit
things to do. And what other things are there in place for the agency. How do they tackle CSA.
To. Know what.
I mean. Can you have a complete stop. Willow it's now called the C set. M set teens. But
even then. If CSA with safeguarding people I take on as a consequence business within that says
it should be everyone's business. Personally I think some of the modelling agencies have done
recently have made it more especially subject and when it meant then is that I don't the source
said it was a but when it becomes more specialist we focus too much on victims. We should
focus on of course Richard but we haven't done this broad brush. I mean you can place of
reviewed all the structures you have schools youth intervention offices which are pieces is. So
suddenly we've accredited someone engagement of such scope scores do everything. They come
from modest background. They've had no specific training before they got their roles. They
could have been the B officer in Great Central Australia. Certainly there are. But people look at
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them now as experts. But also within that organization. Everything should go for that person.
When we should be upskilling. Everyone at schools in the schools for fun they for me. Ladies
and gentlemen a receptionist in the school counter who is the head teacher should all be skilled.
This is about funding a children's welfare. This is about people doing bad things to children and
all of those in public service take on is about protecting kids and I'm not quite convinced we've
got the money.
We need. So when you talk about. The upskilling of everybody you talk about the police
aren't you. Do you think that it is the role of the police service to be lead in on CSA.
No. No. And that's why I think it really is education. I mean. I think. Education is there
too. This is from a non teacher. Let's go. He's got lots of treatments and lots debates through
education about educating no matter what the subject matter is you know if. And surely if we
can't educate the social values and social skills into young people. We're not going to get them to
perform to the best of their ability. If we educate and does recognise a small section then.
Because I said we will educate to the best of our ability because they'll be following way through
life. But you look at there isn't a 20 percent chance become a victim 2 percent higher. There's not
many we need to put our attention to. But it's the same. Being a teacher. Most kids walking to
school. If you ask my primary school teachers they can identify the troublemakers in you. Are
you one. Who are going to sustain that. Near enough through that school in year. Not in the old
days not so much now. Yeah if they're tyred with high stole my car. I'm so glad little Tommy is
sick today because the answer is when he's in school. If we're saying that is wrong because
there's a reason at that age that. I'm not excusing their behaviour whether it's positive behaviour
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negative behaviour we need to be upset about it and that's why I think trusting their treasured
policing is sanctioned. I think pause and I think there's a anything he said is the police just want
privacy no policing because it's crime they want it to be their responsibility. And what I said is I
think we have to stop it being the crime. It's great. We can do what we do when there's crime but
you know if and when you look at some of the cases we come up modern from our Doncaster
you know those girls wouldn't find themselves at such an early age but no one was actually take
them seriously.
Dealing with them we would they would deal with them very much an enforcement
statutory setting not a wrap around support engagements had to we've some of the literature took
by being a crime and that's why the police kind of latched onto it inevitably because of the nature
of it the victims are actually committing crimes all sides kind of goes hand in hand and I think
some they're difficult to separate that would you agree with that. You had an experience of that.
Oh yes very much. Yeah. And you look at. Some of the girls I'm to let people look at
females. Yes the girls been such exploited but they'll be the same girls also carry the drugs they'll
be some girls going out thieving they'll be the same girls actually doing you know that is a fuel
million of trying to recruit other members in but then yeah if that's happened to you and you
recruit someone else into the them to have to put up with the crap you know. And if it means that
whole terminology your gang right. But then to get away from that you do the drugs. You do the
drop since it's fully for as an individual so much better option.
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You know I can imagine from the perspective agencies very specific place it's difficult to
differentiate between those things and we've spoken to people before there's in the literature that
kind of say the police officers struggle because they have almost tick boxes themselves. And so
it's taken a lot about the nonsense he pays and where it's kind of maybe failing or could be
different. Have you got any success stories that you've seen maybe in other agencies or with your
own how you've worked well with CSA.
Yes that towards our youth was having more input we give to the kids they are responsive
kids. Kids know this has happened and it's a funny conversation with no one wants to talk to the
geography teacher about what they saw that we can apply. But by law that's not normal noise in
CSA but normalising the conversation that you know this is okay to talk about. It's good to talk
about this sort of stuff. It's good to have open debate open discussion to actually explore some
issues and sign it. Well that's life. That's what life. Know to the party kiss the one person that
didn't turn into a prince after all. That's life. But. Being forced into a room and some stand by the
door. It's not normal. But. That's all whispered in the corridor. How does anyone know it's not
relevant. People don't want to put their lives at risk. So I think the more we explore this
conversation the more school we work with schools whether it's you know sixth formers have
some of those conversations you know doing presentations yes in a controlled supportive
environment. But. We have to have those conversations. And by doing that we've seen. I think I
should say. I need to buy this to get into that point.
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Success is what issues we experienced within the multi agency workings we always
heard about issues between communication and things like that. Have you encountered anything
like that yourself.
Oh yeah I think. I think it's you know you go back to what 1998 sort of came in place that
put statutory information sharing upfront front section 1 1 2 1 4 1 1 5. And you we're 20 years on
from the largest the information change legislation coming in place to say we can share
information did with crime disorder to get to safety but that's still very very character based.
Shows on the policy but even now I haven't been in my current or talked low for the last
authority's last 14 years. I want different levels of managers inspectors coming through. People
come into this position and this I think often enough one with the safeguard in CSC umbrella.
People come and go. It's like it's not a career choice it's a career. I need to tick a box with some
agencies and then move on. And then you go back to some sort of contract information. Yes.
There's been no in cases. There's never been a state a case of us sharing too much information
dealing with crime. So not this come back really when you come to me dance with Victoria can
be issues. You know the young girl who was heavily abused it's what. If we're not wouldn't have
those open concession pick up the phone and talk. The latest one I think just the sheer GDP of.
People whose GDP I think she not share information and it doesn't even feature people often
therefore could try and understand it but it's just another. I can't share that we can't hold that
information anymore. And I think there is a how. It's easy to say no. Just get on and do it and
people are. People are paranoid about making mistakes that paranoid about losing their job or
being disciplined. No one's going to discipline you theoretically if you protect your child. But
people seem to miss that sometimes the excuses offered. Mm hmm.
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And we're hearing that a fair amount and I think that's kind of an isolated incident in
terms of your own agency saying the lack of authority. Do you think they put enough resources
into actually hacking CSA or the after proficiency you spoke about the youth hubs and things
like that they put enough money into it.
Now this all in on him. Yeah. I don't.
Think my dreams like authority did because I was and this is total commitment. It's not
money. It's about what's it about individual counties. Depending who the counties are driving it.
Delivers resources. If you have someone who's not passionate about it understands it sees the
real. Reason we need to do this. Funding goes elsewhere. And I think that's very soon. My
campus agencies. If you get the white counties in the opposition to a non funded funding brings.
The resource. If I look at what we're doing now with Andover I think you know. Various
education programs over the next two months of it we're doing. I work with Year Six is what
with every single year six school to do quality safety and action so we have every year six go
through workshops. One of those workshops is purely about self relationships and personal space
linked in at that age how you get to make Asia-Pacific. It's one central see as a time. We're doing
youth mentoring. We're doing a arts and arts program all around. Gang Gang belong here. And
what makes gangs sexy but in a really creative way to get the kids to explore we're going to
showcase the post the presentation in the town which do the mentoring program. It's all about
raising awareness. Other areas you go to are doing nothing. So I think and I think I think it's a
very much postcode lottery.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse373
Quite sad isn't it. It's good to hear that your area is doing that. And in an ideal world
complete insurance churns out. If you could generate any more activity to make it better to tackle
it better to kind of make it as you would want it which you do.
I think it's having those safe safe zones. I've had that if I look at schools and this is a bit
poor brush because different schools have resources. You need more support in schools. Kids
need there where they can go to. I think school counsellors are great. I think very not enough
schools have a school counsellor. Have a secure area. They can go to and just talk. And I think is
good. That's all it is it's I think first we have to. Raise the awareness in the schools of what is
CSA you know talk about the exploitation the group and how people do this. So kids have an
understanding and I've said that a few times but not a real understanding of how people try and
target you. How would you be identified. You know where you need to say know what is
acceptable what is not acceptable. You know the old man in the car he's got cars a good
boyfriend. Haven't those open conversations but also have a safe haven and enjoy and promote it
that pupils know they can go and hope through. That's not the schoolteacher who's probably got
60 books to mark too much Rush off the next lesson with the lesson plan it just someone is
always going to be there. Well let me say this. Can I come see him in an hour or two hours. Just
go to I know when you're ready to talk. As you approach he needs to be it because like anything
if you want to say something someone pushes you officers says come back one day and we
talked about is not important in their eyes. By family time you need that often and you need to
get out because a to you get it out you can't stop processing you can't start that journey of
recovery. And if we shut it down and you built yourself up that point you can shut down are you
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likely to go say it later on because then. You. Know. So I think we is. Yeah. Yeah. Is that
something that you say this is how you want to talk about this and it's that critical critical
supportive friend isn't a friend support because I think walking into a police station to a. First of
all sitting down at dinner time with your mom and dad and I only talk about this mom where
she's put the chips on your plate. And which when your mom screams you that runs out what
skills or walked up to the front counter.
Very scary place counter where you've got a drunk in one corner an addict in the other
and a very possibly close Lister. I mean it's we don't make it easy. Or especially now we say if.
The poor before your point might get caught. No.
So if I was in the children the fear is there anything else that you like tonight.
Would you like to play I think a lot of it on that it's I think that everything revolves
around passion people never what's people skill base is what position they're in. If the individual
with the passion for the subject then turned into.
Social Worker
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse375
KM Is he alive. Yes. OK. Interview in number five. How long have you worked here.
INTERVIEWEE I've worked in Kent for 20 years. I know I've just had my 20th
anniversary here.
KM Wow.
INTERVIEWEE Well 16 of them have been as a qualified social worker and the four
before that word and part my training and then in residential work. Yeah I've worked for Kent in
social care for 20 years.
KM Oh. well done, I feel like I should say well done .
INTERVIEWEE It's. A bit like. Oo is that ok?
KM As long as you think that's OK. Right. So this one says to summarize your
background within the agency and sort of your current responsibilities.
INTERVIEWEE So I qualified as a social worker in 2002 and I have always worked in
this kind of team so working with child needs child protection and children subject to court
proceedings. I am currently a team manager which means I don't directly work with children and
young people and very much. I tend to manage the people that do that. Yeah. So my primary
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responsibilities are these with supervision and making sure that information about policy and
everything is assimilate into the team making sure that the work that they're doing is the right
work opportunity to talk it through that kind of thing.
KM Quite a responsibility. How would you describe your involvement in sort of the
whole area of CSE and countering CSE.
INTERVIEWEE Said day today day it will be mainly around if young if some of the
young people that we work with have identified as a particular issue so for me it will be around
when we have supervision with individual staff. I'm saying I think this might be a problem. And
we talk through that why do you think that might be a problem what approach you might use
because it has some district awareness and training in our district meeting and looking at
mapping. So linking our young people thinking I know that young person that person in team
four knows that person or their behaviors are similar. Is there a link trying to map out whether.
There are links across the districts so we cover right the bottom end of Kent we are erm what
we'll be folkestone and Hythe but is currently Shepway right down on the marsh up through
Folkestone and Hythe taking in some little villages way back from Canterbury that's where we
cover upto erm and we try and workout okay well are their links across the district that need to
be aware of. So yeah that'll be my primary thing really, thinking about whether there's a wider
link that. And happening and we have a couple of key venues. So looking at people but also
looking at where people might be congregating so we know there's a particular venue down in
the harbor. Is that something we should be talking seeing. Is that something we then need to take
to ANONYMOUS really taking two other meetings that she was involved with the local council
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and police and saying we've identified this, what do you know? So it is about looking for links
both with people and with venue across the district.
KM So you also said something about sort of raising awareness.
INTERVIEWEE Yeah.
KM How does that work?
INTERVIEWEE From our point of view probably is more whether so raising awareness
for staff that come in. So people that, I've students have a lot of students that come in from
Christchurch come there every time. We probably have between four and eight that come to the
district. And we have. District training that happens once every month and we have focused on
CSE before to make people because if he if you don't work and if you don't work with young
people in some of our students or staff come for maybe adult backgrounds or and mental health it
just might not heard of it. I think most people have heard of it now even if they link it to
something on TV there would have heard of it but they might not know what that means. Raising
awareness is probably more to do with. We've got people coming in. Have you heard about this.
This is this is happening locally. We had one week last year where we had a big event where we
did a youth conference, part of the youth conference..Maybe it wasn't last year, it might be the
year before where we looked at that was a theme where we had a second.
KM I think it was last year because..
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INTERVIEWEE Was it, It's just merging into one. I think it might be but we had it
with the I think every year nine from the secondary schools in Shepwway to come in we a lady
that has survived that experience which was really good. And then there were posters going up
everywhere. ANONYMOUS does a lot of work with people that taxi drivers that kind of thing
to raise awareness. I don't their involvement in that. But She does and she does a lot more district
wise. So my my raising awareness is very much here. In the office talking to staff sometimes
talking at meetings if we've got a child protection conference or a child in need meeting we
might raise that. We're a bit worried that might be an issue. And then those kind of
conversations.
KM So when you. This might be a really silly question but when you qualify as a social
worker. Do you get is getting information on CSE a part of your general training.
INTERVIEWEE Not when I qualified, no. Because I don't think we were as aware of it
and that's a long time ago. I don't know now. I don't know what they got on there. I would hope.
The trouble is with the social work degree it's entirely generic. So you don't. And a bit like I
don't know if nursings different but you used to do kind of 18 months as a a holistic nurse and
then you could choose which avenue to go down. You don't really do that in social work. You
cover the whole breadth of social work and then through your placement opportunity you can
specialize a little bit. But you dont because your qualifications you can go anywhere you like so
you could come here. To do your placement and then go into mental health. So I don't know the
depth at which they go into those kind of issues and I don't how much they know about that
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county line. So as you say all of those things that we do day to day I don't know until you come
into a placement whether you would know whether you'd know that. Yeah. Complexity of it.
KM Next up what agencies do you believe to be responsible for CSE.
INTERVIEWEE I would say all of them really, I would say, erm. I think probably the
perception. has been that if we know, we will sort it out. But my view so a lot of conversationsrefer it in refer it in. What are you expecting us to do? You know school you spend a lot of time
each week with these young people in housing you know where you're paying them to live and
police. We know the targeted areas you need to be some of you would be all of us together in a
coordinated response.
KM And how does that work when you say all of us together does that work as all of us
together?
INTERVIEWEE Yeah. I think. Sometimes it can work. I think on individual level we
can have a meeting where you had people come to meeting you and you think plan and the police
talk about disruption which is really helpful and so go into particulars. They know they've got
whatever it is going on. We then can do some work with the family at home. Housing can look at
housing options in terms of leaving them there wouldn't be the best idea or looking at alternative
accommodation. So I do think it can work. It can depend a little bit maybe on the quality of
agency relationships with particular people erm depends a little bit on the quality of the family in
terms of wanting to get engaged with what's happening and their recognition that this is a
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse380
problem for their family. So I don't know that a lot of families want to own that fact. Sometimes
some do. Some find it quite frightening I would imagine. And. So. Yeah. I think it can really
work. I think probably on a wider level ANOYMOUS would know much more about that
because strategically there are a lots of conversations that happen and they're really good and we
get the bit of that which means, erm, that they're doing they're doing something locally a day
you get to know agencies nature so much more out. In the public doing a kind of meet and greet
thing which is really positive. And so I think strategically they really try to do that. But
sometimes that can be a bit difficult when you're working with an individual family. Sometimes
it works really well.
KM Are you a part of any multiagency teams. Because I do know that there are some sort
of set up that deal with sort of risks and vulnerability and all of that sort of stuff.
INTERVIEWEE No not particularly here, in Kent they do have particular targeted
people linked to erm they often offer us secondment into a particular team to do a particular bit
of work so it can be either CSE or county lines and they operate we don't I don't operate
anything here. Yeah it's just our generic work that we do.
KM So how well do you think that the nature and extent of CSC is actually understood
by the police and any other agencies.
INTERVIEWEE I would say.. I was I can only talk from my experience and I think if
you spoke to a different team manager or social worker you might get a different view, but I I
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would say that the vulnerability of our young people is picked up. I think every agency are aware
of the vulnerable young people we've got in our area we've got a erm we've rolled out from
Ashford, the adolescent, it's called the adolescent pilot but it isn't. It's got a proper name put it. I
can't remember what it is. Its MADAP but I can't remember what it is. Erm, multiagency districts
adolescents panel. And. That was around talking about exactly these issues for young people.
There are a number of young people that are well known to every agency and I think they are
really good at saying we're worried about this in person because of this, and they can really
clearly identify because they go missing, because there are issues around who are hanging
around with, hanging around with older people because theyre out of education because we think
they've got drugs and alcohol from somewhere. I think people are very good identifying that.
And I would say that from education and police I think it may be that we're working on all the
time is how we respond to that erm individually and together.
KM So am I understanding it right that this sort of thing as well. It is sort of widely
looking at risks and then one of those sort of can be in terms of CSE but it's wider than that.
INTERVIEWEE Yes. It looks at things and. Like being out of school criminal behavior
Yeah. All kinds of things. And if we identify the young person who might need a bit of work
around either get back into education or your around drugs use or healthy relationships we would
like to say can you offer any additional support to help us work with that particular issue. And I
think that has highlighted the importance of a coordinated approach to our young people like not
housing saying one thing and CAMHS saying another is actually we all need to be having the
same conversation which is helpful. Good thing.
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KM And what are your personal views on the nature and extent of CSE. So are there any
patterns new trends any profiles anything like that.
INTERVIEWEE OK. It's not a difficult question I don't think.
KM Well it is a big question.
INTERVIEWEE I think. That I think one of our. biggest issues at the moment is
exploitation not necessarily sexual exploitation but I think it is around erm the county lines drug
running I think that certainly in my team we were saying that was much more prevalent issue and
for and for our team we've got a number of young people who would be concerned about that. I
think across the districts we had a time. And I think it's it's how you label is how you label it too.
I think if you think of sexual exploitation are you thinking of are you thinking of a big organized
activity that tends to hit headlines or are you thinking of older man making individual
relationship with a young girl which is equally that so I think we have we have both. We have
the drug thing going on which is all around exploitation. We have had some situations where
we've been worried about larger groups of young people but we have a vulnerable group of
young people who have got into relationships with older men who they wouldn't have identified.
That is being exploitation but it very clearly is. erm that makes it much bigger than just the
poster you get on the wall with you. Have you seen the one with a girl. Anything actually that is
narrowing it to a point that you might you might then lose track of other bits that are really
important. erm. For some of our really vulnerable young people. And because sometimes you
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only get a snapshot of a situation. And we know from research has been done already that.
You're not going to go in and say to somebody. Have you been doing this. Yeah. No you're right.
We have it's going to take much longer. And that's sometimes could be problematic if a young
person does want to talk at that point that they might want to but we might not be involved but
somebody else hopefully will be. Yeah. I think it's just a really broad term. Initially when the
high profile cases came in it was all about organized groups who were doing all this [you mean
Rochdale and all of these sort of, yeah] It's not really my experience here. It's more around. It's
something happening in the local park. Yeah it probably it's happening in the local park.
Brilliant. Is it happening with that young person who thought they were in a really meaningful
relationship and they're not so the title probably isn't helpful in terms of describing all of which
what we're referring to here.
KM And you've actually kind of answered what I wanted to ask you next anyway which
is there's so many different models of child exploitation and we do tend to be quite focused on
the you know stranger danger and don't talk to older men and all of that sort of stuff. But I guess
you have just answered that that's not actually the core of your problem around here.
INTERVIEWEE I don't think so. No. And we had a while ago and every summer we get
a group of young people going missing and there tends to be like an old abandoned building
down at the beach and it happens all the time from April through to September where the
evenings are lighter and it's not cold you kind of get a group of young people to do that. And
they would be the ones that would be thinking they're really vulnerable and they are vulnerable.
But in a different way to the thirteen year old at school who is looking for somebody and its the
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friend of a friend. And then that gets taken somewhere that's not okay. So I think part of the.. part
of the thinking about raising awareness in our district is don't take that term to mean something
very narrow and actually it's much wider and there might be different warning signs for that
rather than that. But you know I think quite rightly it's become an issue in the government
agenda and we're going to stamp it out so well. But that's that's something that's been happening
for ages but this equally has been happening for a long time you know older men have always
preyed on young girls similarly older women with younger boys. And that isn't a new
phenomenon. It's not often recognized as being the same kind of thing may be here.
KM And what about sort of the types which we're going to call newer. They've always
existed but we only sort of started talking about it more recently. So stuff like the boyfriend
model or like peer on peer exploitation is that sort of going on around here as well.
INTERVIEWEE Yeah definitely the boyfriend part I would say not in any organized
way just in a erm we've just had a couple where that's been an issue and not in any organized
intent I don't think from in terms of criminal activity and because the model that people think of
is with someone up here organized and people don't harm people. But this was not like that. This
is something completely different. erm I think that I'm trying to think of an example. And the
more wider one. I don't I don't think I've had that in my team. We've had a couple where we've
wondered if that might be happening here and people assume as you say people have been all
over it. And it's all, OK, that's fine. But. You know this is what we do with the time to tell people
about what's actually happening. If you give it a label you might rule out other things that might
be impacting it too. So yeah I think we definitely both but in varying degrees. And it's not the
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse385
traditional picture of man from a different ethnic origin. Targeting young people and it tends to
be something different. Oh I think so.
KM So Speaking of exactly what you just said. If you had to think of your sort of most
prolific demographics of both victims and perpetrators within your area would you have any
demographics. Or is it literally anyone and everyone.
INTERVIEWEE I think we probably have most referrals about teenage girls who are
generally white British. But that's in the context of the boyfriend model and and other situations
where we've been worried about maybe what's happening more locally. It tends to be
conversations about what are you doing to get drugs and alcohol. That's the kind of are you
having to do something to get drugs and alcohol from older English boy. So that tends to be my
experience my team different teams who might have a different experience but from my point of
view I'm just thinking currently about what we're working with. That would be it.
KM And there's always sort of as you rightly just said sort of conversations about you
know specific ethnicities and all of that sort of stuff when it's specifically on the perpetrator side
of things.
INTERVIEWEE But is so when we have referral come in we would have details of
ethnicity as one of our demographic. YSo we would have that immediattely come through and. I
would I would say the ones that we currently working with are White British, White British girls
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse386
KM Excellent thing. Do you feel that there has been an increase in sort of the occurance
of CSE or increase in the victims.
INTERVIEWEE I don't know. I don't know that would be erm, I think probably we are
talking about it more and labeling things better sometimes. So I think if you were to look at the
Kent erm data I think probably there would be more. I think that might be because we are better
equipped to know what we're looking for and openeing it differently. I don't know whether that
means an increase. You could say that about anything couldnt you? You know now that we're
much more open about talking about mental health have more people got mental health problems
you know. But we're just better at identifying them. So it's hard it's hard to tell.
KM Yeah I totally get that. Again you've already touched upon a different thing. So I
county lines and gang activity and all of that sort of stuff. So just taking that a little bit wider. Do
you feel no, I'll start differently, so, gang activity is something which we do often called the
CSE. And you've done that already as well. Are there any other sort of criminal patterns which
you feel relate to CSE as well.
INTERVIEWEE Not erm, Not particularly I think where we've had a referral that
queries whether its CSE. I think it's been about supply of drugs and alcohol to young people. But
some of our vulnerable young people will always be involved in shoplifting or not being in
education so that that fits a wider profile. So no I don't. I don't think. I think yeah and the gang
the gang things we've got going on don't relate to the current referrals that we have around
worries about CSE, they're a little bit. They're different. They're different and actually different
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse387
demographic in terms of ethnicity for use and county lines worries to our current worries about
sexual exploitation and I don't think they're part of the same group at all. So that's just for my
team. I think if you were to map it widely you would see different things.
KM Yeah yeah that is exactly why it's important that I sort of speak to you sort of stuff
because it's it's good. When you get all these different viewpoints.
INTERVIEWEE Its about the indiviidual bit, its in the detail and it's not just one big
picture of this is how we deal with it. Actually this is dealt with very differently from my team.
Not totally different. But in terms of identifying what kind of cases you have come in because
one situation could be entirely different from another but you but you give it both the same label.
KM Yeah no absolutely. We have spoken sort of about multiagency work and the
importance of that. And I have kind of asked you about how you how you're finding the whole
multiagency setting kind of thing. So do you think that is effective. How could it improve. What
are some of the challenges there in terms of really working effectively.
INTERVIEWEE I think probably, so in Kent we have we do have a team for CSE team
but they don't hold cases they support individual bits to work.
KM Is like going to county level or..
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse388
INTERVIEWEE Yeah, County level. I think probably it's just the day to day challenge
is that the research, up until now is showing that that investing time and a relationship with these
young people is really important. And the team will have competing demands on their work so
they will have some of this kind of work on their case load but they will also have a neglect case
with children under 5. So balancing those kind of things can be a challenge for people to get on a
practical. They have however many hours in a day you know they can't see everything in one
day. And this kind of work can rightly demands a lot of time and a lot of emotional energy and
balancing that I think can be really difficult with everything else they have to do day to day. And
that means that they they let anything go. But I think that is a challenge I would say be there for
any kind of fight really in this area because we tackle the whole range of things. Which in one
respect is right but I believe that it can be just can be difficult. I think for people to manage all
trhat all the time. In terms of working in multiagency. I mean one of the biggest challenges we
will have different we all have different bits of law that we operate under. So we have to have
that big flow. Police have very different powers and we have our bit and we will operate broadly
under the children act, because that's our child protection governing erm and bits of it have come
after. But how thats interpreted and procedure in terms of different agencies laws. It was really
take to another day. So that was probably a big challenge to being able to work sometimes multi
agency Yeah. But sometimes not. We got really good examples of times that we've worked with
police
KM Give me an example of success.
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INTERVIEWEE I think we've got. We've got. Good relationships with ANONYMOUS
vulnerable investigation teams good good working relationships with them where we've been
able to go out with with with them jointly and speak to young people and say you know what
happened. We've been hearing this and hearing that and they're able to take a slightly different
approach to us in questioning which can be really helpful. And they have a bit of information
that we might not have. So when we've had a joint investigation and we've gone out we've gone
out really quite prepared. About who the adults might be what role they might be playing. Is
there any other information we need to know is information about the young person that we need
to be aware of so that works really well and not on a one to one level that can really get to go got
quickly and get the information that we think we need.
KM Is that purely police.
INTERVIEWEE Victim are, Yeah. Yes so they are. They. They will be the ones that
undertake all our joint section 47's and if you have a strategy discussion you agree a joint
investigation you would go out with a VIT officer would be trained in child protection so they
will know all the issues that we're talking about. And they would know a little bit about what
happens in Shepway because it's spread right along the coast and it's different from living there
to living here. And so I think it terms of motivators to work and the challenges are definitely that
we will have a, its not a different different agenda, particularly because all involved in
safeguarding. But it is a different way of working out because of particular parts of the world that
we operate under such a responsibility and time scales can be different. So yeah, most of the
challenges have day to day with people. I think it's a good one.
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KM Do you feel like your agency puts enough resources into tackling CSE.
INTERVIEWEE I would say yeah yeah yeah I would say yeah I think the biggest the
biggest investment that is made has to be investment in training and support for staff. And I think
we have a dedicated team and we're part of raising awareness and we have the big and we're part
of the safeguarding subgroup and all of those things that lots of other people attend. But I think
the biggest investment has to be what we do here where we're talking to people in our teams
around "have you thought about that?" "Have thought about this?" So having opportunity for
training and supervision is really important because I think that's where you pick up just the little
things that leads to a bigger picture. And I think as long as Kent continue to invest in good team
managers and good quality staff coming through. That's the way that you make a difference
because I think the big activities are great. But if you've got people here that are working with
family and children directly that's got to be where you target a lot of the intervention because
that's where we can do the work with them.
KM What makes good quality staff.
INTERVIEWEE Good question because I think good is just such a terribly descriptive
erm to use.Erm I would ask that question to you and I would do my research what does good
mean? I think and I think it can mean different things at different times. I think in terms of CSE
it means a commitment to building relationship and seeing the bigger picture being curious all
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse391
the time not taking anything at face value or was wondering what else could be questioning.
Being open to challenge and I would take some action.
KM And you just literally led me to my question which is about the Curiosity. So do you
think that there is enough inquisitiveness when it comes to this sort of work?.
INTERVIEWEE I would say working in this district I would say we have staff that are
incredibly curious and who would work very hard erm to just make sure it's not really about that
erm but exploring everything they need to say going out and not coming back and going Yeah I
don't think it's that at all, right fine. But from what I said I think people are very good at going.
Yeah they said it was nothing. I don't believe them I'm going to go back. So I think that one to
one I'd say the staff here are very committed to being inquisitive asked some questions maybe
taking something on the first visit and saying okay that's fine I'll make a note of that but then
going back and saying you know what you told me before I don't think I believe you. Let's look
at it again. And that's I think it's important that works. We've seen, we were talking about it this
morning about people that were going out to interview. He said no it's fine go back again that's
fine. It's not fine after all. And that was good. Yeah we could have taken it on the first interview.
But they didn't. They were. Curious and nosy enough to go back like no it doesn't. All right.
We'll see what he can't you got a feeling what what is it that you're saying you know you're
saying from your experience in your training that this doesn't sit with what you know is not kind
of. I feel that now you've assessed that because of what you've read because of what you know
because of what you've learned already that this isnt fitting with what you know about this
particular subject. So that's good.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse392
KM No that's really interesting that you say that just because I'm sure you're very well
researched I know that.
INTERVIEWEE I don't know.
KM You know how in all these reports it's sort of constantly said that professionals are
not curious enough and it's not it's not that they lack curiosity itself it's more so that they want to
believe that everything's fine.
INTERVIEWEE I think.. Yeah. I don't know. I don't think. I think when people go out
and meet people for the first time sometimes part of that relay and you make mistakes and you
get that. Is this a situation where I need to confront something about safety really urgently. Or is
my priority going to be I just need to get in the door and make it OK for me to then have that
conversation. I think the difficulty when you look at serious case reviews or research and they
come back with they weren't curious enough. Well it's very difficult if people are actively trying
to hide stuff and this is the kind of situation where a 14 year old girl would not want to admit to
what they've done because they feel awful about it already or they don't know about it. So they
are very good at hiding that information and we're not mind readers. We're not detectives. We
can do a very good job of finding out as much as we can. And I think to call it a lack of curiosity
in some cases might be entirely justified but in others, you, you... How far can you get when you
feel you've got nothing else apart from this is your fitting but really ive explored every avenue in
that situation you go back to safety plan and you say, I think this is happening and we're going to
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse393
plan for it anyway. And you're not admitting it. We're going to plan for your safety because I
think this is what you do. Yeah erm but when it comes back you know how many years later
people are going to say we didn't look hard enough. Well we did, I don't. I think the other thing I
think social workers to be disappointed that that was sort of here because they worked really
hard. And I think if at any point we were like well you have you not tried that. No I don't need to
try that. We're just gonna shut it. That just doesn't happen at all. And I don't think people would
be real disappointed if they thought they hadn't been curious enough because that's not my
experience. Of working here.
KM This is crazy. Right. If you could generate more countering CSE activity what would
it consist of. I think earlier at work in primary school and around transition to work on resilience
for young people sometimes not all the time but there was something underlying in terms of
vulnerability a lack of resilience that makes teenagers a bit more vulnerable to this kind of
activity. I think rather than leave it to 15 and put in some interventions in school I think it's too
late. I think it needs to be much earlier on for maybe five or six primary terms of resilience and
good friendships as kind of thing. Particularly around the transition back working to secondary
and then I think for our erm, I was gonna say particularly girls but I don't think it is. I think for
the teenagers then between 13 and 16 I think any intervention we put in at that point tends to be
reactive rather than proactive. And I think that's a bit too late because we're dealing with all the
fallout so mental health worries self-harm drug use alcohol use and I wonder whether if we put
in a little bit more earlier than those vulnerabilities might be tackled a little bit differently. I
don't know. Teenagers are teenagers and they're likely to experiment in all kinds of ways. But
this takes it a step further into a dangerous behavior. And they're always going to be the few
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse394
people that would always do that because that that would happen. But for those that might not
have done that if they'd had an intervention earlier. And moving foreward. Yeah I think that
would make a difference. I think I think sometimes. Agencies are very good. At going in and
doing what we've identified is probably going to be in 10 weeks and you think, these are teenage
girls here they're not going to want you once a week for ten weeks, they're going to want an
ongoing relationship and to help you move forward to stay. And. I think. Having it tackled
earlier for every young person means youre not singled out. So that's how he gets 14 and 15 and
demonstrating some worrying behavior just singled out as being which is one that did that shes
the one thats going off to talk to a social worker. But if you could get something a different
conversation earlier on. That might be. Might. Be more helpful.
KM And we've touched upon these things a little bit. But do you think that sort of
training in your agency surrounding countries CSE is available is appropriate.
INTERVIEWEE Definitely in terms of we've I think everyone we've all got mandatory
training that we do by e-learning. We've got workshops for....
KM Does the e- learning work?
INTERVIEWEE Well. The thing is the thing about e-learning. I think and yet it would
give you a good background if you knew nothing. So if you're coming in as a student, these
things to be really helpful and I think positively, my husband works in a school in Dover and I
think they're rolling out the stuff like prevent e-learning to everybody and that's really important
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse395
because it gets everybody. If you're talking in terminology everyone knows what you mean.
Yeah and that's really helpful something in learning in terms of the basic information is really
good. I think sometimes certainly initially it might have come with the stereotypical. It may be
an Asian man grooming a group of 14 year old girls and that's helpful but that's not what we see
day to day. So I've not done them face to face learning for a while. I'm sure it's developed and
changed in that time. So I do think we've got the right opportunitiss for learning as as the county.
Certainly my response for the county. erm.. But whether likely we pick up whether we need to
pick up better get the individual. So the linking together I think that's important.
KM So generally do you feel that your agency is sort of equipped. I do.
INTERVIEWEE Yeah yeah I think it's to top the agenda. Yeah every go its that that's
talked about. Which is good.
KM Lastly if I could give you a magic wand. What should happen. So the CSE is
successfully tackled.
INTERVIEWEE A very difficult question because. Because of the reasons for it
different arent they for lots of our young people. I think. That. For me personally I would really
like if there was something different happening in primary and transition to secondary and today
the whole proactive part around dealing with vulnerability. All of those things. I think there will
always be a group of young people who head in that direction because there has been even
before we labeled it. That was still happening, I think we need a and I think we continue to need
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse396
support from police and education in providing the disruption activity that prevent groups of
young people becoming vulnerable some kind of coordinated thing. I think we need a joined up
response for mental health and education around responding to people who had trauma because
of that. And that needs to be not on a 10 week waiting list for then 2 sessions for a week. I think
that needs to be and I think we need to not lose the label but lose the label. I think it's really
unhelpful. There's a thing. I was reading a little bit at the weekend about erm... We thought that
mental health awareness day last week and on same say oddly we say to people come tell us
about your health problems. It's really good to talk when you do that we can give you a label
that's going to prevent you doing anything. And I think with this we are in real danger of labeling
children which then presents the opportunity to do something different later in the life. And I
think that's not OK I think we were very good at recognizing that and that that's happened. But
by labeling somebody. That happened to them. You think. Okay. Well. That's something they're
now going to carry around with them. And that doesn't feel great either. So kind of why don't
why do labeling yes not labeling his.
The snake with many heads: A qualitative study of cse397