Technical Committee on Fire Pumps (FIM-AAA)
MEMORANDUM
DATE:
October 2, 2014
TO:
Principal and Alternate Members of the Technical Committee on Fire Pumps
(FIM-AAA)
FROM:
Chad Duffy, NFPA Staff Liaison
Office: (617) 984-7562
Email: cduffy@nfpa.org
SUBJECT:
AGENDA – NFPA 20 Second Draft Meeting (Annual 2015)
Enclosed is the agenda for the Second Draft meeting for NFPA 20, Standard on the Installation of
Stationary Pumps for Fire Protection, which will be held at the UL LLC office in Northbrook, IL
8:00am to 5:00pm CDT on Tuesday October 21, 2014, and 8:00am to 5:00pm on Wednesday
October 22, 2014.
Please submit requests for additional agenda items to the chair at least seven days prior to the
meeting, and notify the chair and staff liaison as soon as possible if you plan to introduce any
Second revisions at the meeting.
All NFPA Technical Committee meetings are open to the public. Please contact me for
information on attending a meeting as a guest. Read NFPA's Regulations Governing the
Development of NFPA Standards (Section 3.3.3.3) for further information.
Additional Meeting Information:
See the Meeting Notice on the Document Information Page (www.nfpa.org/20next) for meeting
location details. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact Elena Carroll, Project
Administrator at 617-984-7952 or by email ecarroll@nfpa.org.
C. Standards Administration
Page 1 of 5
Technical Committee on Fire Pumps (FIM-AAA)
NFPA 20 Second Draft Meeting (Annual 2015)
Tuesday, Oct.21, 2014 and Wednesday, Oct. 22, 2014, 8:00am – 5:00pm CDT
UL LLC, 333 Pfingsten Road, Northbrook, IL
AGENDA
Tuesday, October 21, 2014
1. Call to Order – 8:00 AM
2. Introductions and Attendance
3. Review Agenda
4. NFPA Staff Liaison Presentation and Review of Key Dates in Current Cycle
5. Chairman Comments
6. Approval of Previous Meeting Minutes
7. Brief discussion of Controller Connectivity
8. Act on Public Comments for NFPA 20- Tentative order of presentation
a.
b.
c.
d.
e.
f.
g.
h.
i.
j.
k.
Task Group 9 – Controller Connectivity James Nasby – Chair
Task Group 1 - Chapter 4, 6 & 7 Darrell Snyder – Chair
Task Group 2 – Chapter 5 Dave Fuller - Chair
Task Group 3 – Chapter 8 Jennifer McGrath - Chair
Task Group 4 – Chapters 9 & 10 John Kovacik – Chair
Task Group 5 – Chapter 11 & 12 John Whitney – Chair
Task Group 6 – Chapters 13 Alan Dorini – Chair
Task Group 7 – Chapter 14 Bill Harvey – Chair
Task Group 11 – Table A.14.2.6.4
Task Group 10 – Coordination with NFPA 25 John Kovacik - Chair
Task Group 8 – Electric Grid Reliability Dana Haagensen – Chair
9. Adjourn - TBD
Wednesday, October 22, 2014
1. Call to Order – 8:00 AM
2. Complete Action on Public Comment for NFPA 20
3. Dissolution of current task groups
4. New business
5. Adjourn Meeting – 5:00 PM
Please submit requests for additional agenda items to the chair at least seven days prior to
the meeting.
Page 2 of 5
Technical Committee on Fire Pumps (FIM-AAA)
NFPA 20 Second Draft Meeting (Annual 2015)
Tuesday, Oct.21, 2014 and Wednesday, Oct. 22, 2014, 8:00am – 5:00pm CDT
UL LLC, 333 Pfingsten Road, Northbrook, IL
Please notify the chair and staff liaison as soon as possible if you plan to introduce any
committee input at the meeting.
Key Dates for the Annual 2015 Revision Cycle
Proposal Closing Date
July 8, 2013
December 13,
2013
January 1, 2014
February 21, 2014
March 7, 2014
May 16, 2014
October 31, 2014
December12, 2014
January 2, 2014
January 16, 2015
Final Date for First Draft Meeting
Posting of First Draft and TC Ballot
Ballots Returned By
Post Final First Draft
Comment Closing Date
Final Date for Second Draft Meeting
Posting of Second Draft and TC Ballot
Ballots Returned By
Posting Final Second Draft
Closing Date for Notice of Intent to Make a Motion
March 6, 2015
(NITMAM)
Issuance of Consent Document (No NITMAMs)
May 26, 2015
NFPA Annual Meeting
June 22-25, 2015
Issuance of Document with NITMAM
August 20, 2015
Technical Committee deadlines are in bold.
Page 3 of 5
Technical Committee on Fire Pumps (FIM-AAA)
NFPA 20 Second Draft Meeting (Annual 2015)
Tuesday, Oct.21, 2014 and Wednesday, Oct. 22, 2014, 8:00am – 5:00pm CDT
UL LLC, 333 Pfingsten Road, Northbrook, IL
Meeting Preparation
Committee members are strongly encouraged to review the published comments prior to the
meeting and to be prepared to act on each item.
Handout materials should be submitted to the chair at least seven days prior to the meeting.
Only one posting of the comments will be made; it will be arranged in section/order and will be
pre-numbered. This will be posted to the NFPA Document information pages located at
www.nfpa.org/20. If you have trouble accessing the website please contact Elena Carroll at
ecarroll@nfpa.org.
Mandatory Materials:
 Last edition of the standard
 Meeting agenda
 Public input/comments
 Committee Officers' Guide (Chairs)
 Roberts’ Rules of Order (Chairs; An abbreviated version may be found in the
Committee Officer’s Guide)
Optional Materials:
 NFPA Annual Directory
 NFPA Manual of Style
 Prepared committee input/comments (If applicable)
Regulations and Guiding Documents
All committee members are expected to behave in accordance with the Guide for the Conduct of
Participants in the NFPA Codes and Standards Development Process.
All actions during and following the committee meetings will be governed in accordance with the
Regulations Governing the Development of NFPA Standards. Failure to comply with these
regulations could result in challenges to the standards-making process. A successful challenge on
procedural grounds could prevent or delay publication of the document.
The style of the document must comply with the Manual of Style for NFPA Technical Committee
Documents.
Page 4 of 5
Technical Committee on Fire Pumps (FIM-AAA)
NFPA 20 Second Draft Meeting (Annual 2015)
Tuesday, Oct.21, 2014 and Wednesday, Oct. 22, 2014, 8:00am – 5:00pm CDT
UL LLC, 333 Pfingsten Road, Northbrook, IL
General Procedures for Meetings

Use of tape recorders or other means capable of producing verbatim transcriptions of any
NFPA Committee Meeting is not permitted.

Attendance at all NFPA Committee Meetings is open. All guests must sign in and identify
their affiliation.

Participation in NFPA Committee Meetings is generally limited to committee members
and NFPA staff. Participation by guests is limited to individuals, who have received prior
approval from the chair to address the committee on a particular item, or who wish to speak
regarding public input or comments that they submitted.

The chairman reserves the right to limit the amount of time available for any presentation.

No interviews will be allowed in the meeting room at any time, including breaks.

All attendees are reminded that formal votes of committee members will be secured by
letter ballot. Voting at this meeting is used to establish a sense of agreement, but only the
results of the formal letter ballot will determine the official action of the committee.

Note to Special Experts: Particular attention is called to Section 3.3(e) of the NFPA Guide
for the Conduct of Participants in the NFPA Codes and Standards Development Process in
the NFPA Directory. This section requires committee members to declare any interest they
may represent, other than their official designation as shown on the committee roster. This
typically occurs when a special expert is retained by and represents another interest
category on a particular subject. If such a situation exists on a specific issue or issues, the
committee member shall declare those interests to the committee and refrain from voting
on any action relating to those issues.

Smoking is not permitted at NFPA Committee Meetings.
Page 5 of 5
NEW PROCESS ACTIONS AND MOTIONS Possible Action #1: Accept Public Comment (exactly as it is) Action Required Sample motion Create a Second Revision I move to create a Second Revision using PC # ______. Possible action #2: Reject but see (revise submitted text) Action Required Sample motion Step 1 Create a Second Revision based on a Public Comment I move to create a Second Revision based on PC # _____with the following changes to the text . . . If the revision is related to multiple PCs, Step 2 respond to all of them together using the cart function I move to create a Second Revision based on PC # ____and incorporating PC #s _____with the following changes to the text . . . Possible action #3: Reject (no change to the standard) Action Required Sample motion Generate a statement (substantiation) I move to reject PC # ____ with the following substantiation . . . Possible Action #4: Reject but hold (new material) Action Required Sample motion I move to reject PC # ____ but hold it for Reject Public Comment for this cycle, but consideration during the First Draft meeting next save for next revision cycle cycle. Attachment #1:
Previous Meeting Minutes
MINUTES of the
NFPA 20 Public Input meeting
Orlando, FL – October 1 thru 3, 2013
Tuesday; October 1
1. Chairman Gayle Pennel called the meeting to order at 8 AM.
2.
A presentation was furnished by Doug Stevens regarding transducers.
3. Recessed in order for the Task Groups to deliberate.
4. Reconvened at 1:00 PM.
5. All attendees made self-Introductions; See attached attendance.
6. Staff Liaison Chad Duffy addressed the revised Standard Development Process.
7. Chairman Pennel provided standard meeting instructions
8. Staff Liaison Chad Duffy instructed Technical Committee on Roster update and attendance log.
9. Chairman Pennel called for a motion to accept minutes of October 2011 ROC meeting of the
TECHNICAL COMMITTEE in San Antonio, TX. Motion passed unanimously.
10. A presentation was furnished by Jim Nasby regarding electrical connectivity.
11. Technical Committee began the review and action process on 159 public input proposals
beginning with Task Group reports and actions:
a.
Task Group on Chps 4, 6, &7 by Darrell Snyder
b.
Task Group on Chp 5 by David Fuller
c.
Task Group on Chp 8 by Jennifer McGrath
d.
Task Group on Chps 9 & 10 by Hugh Castles
e.
Task Group on Chps 11 & 12 by John Whitney
f.
Task Group on Chp 13 by Alan Dorini
g.
Task Group on Chp 14 by Bill Harvey
h.
Task Group on Electric Grid Reliability by Dana Haagensen
12. Session recessed at 6:10PM
Wednesday; October 2
13. Technical Committee reconvened at 8:00 AM on 10/2 and continued the review and action
process on the Public Input proposals beginning with unfinished Task Group reports and
actions:,
14. Chairman Pennel entertained a discussion by Victoria Valentine (NFPA 13) regarding Hanging
and Bracing.
15. Technical Committee continued with the review and action process on remaining Public Input
proposals
16. Session recessed at 6:25PM
Thursday; October 3
17. Technical Committee reconvened at 8:00 AM on 10/3 and continued the review and action
process on the remaining Public Input proposals
18. Chairman Pennel announced a ballot for this NFPA 20 meeting on Public Input would be
forwarded to the Technical Committee members for their official vote.
19. Chairman Pennel announced that the next meeting will likely be scheduled in August,
September, or October 2014. Exact date and location to be announced in the future.
20. Chairman Pennel called for a motion to adjourn at 12:15 PM. Motion passed unanimously.
Respectfully submitted,
R. T. Leicht, Secretary
Attendees:
Gayle Pennel, Chair
R. T. Leicht, Secretary
Chad Duffy, NFPA Staff Liaison
Principals
Alternates
Michael Aaron
Timothy Ballengee
James Beals
Marinus Both
Pat Brock
Hugh Castles
Stephen Clark
Mohammad Dadgardoust
Alan Dorini
David Fuller
Dana Haagensen
David hague
Bill Harvey
Hatem Kheir
John Kovacik
Jennifer McGrath
Charles McKnight
James Nasby
Jeffrey Roberts
Michael Rothmier
Richard Schneider
Darrell Snyder
Terry Victor
John Whitney
Kerry Bell
Brad Cronin
Jerald Huff
Kenneth Isman
Floyd Luinstra
William Stelter
Thomas Wellen
Guests
Peter Schwab
Brian Buscler
Kevin Kunkler
Tim Jordan
Les Andree
Rogen Montenbeault
Steven Baird
Matt Paine
Doug Stephens
Victoria Valentine
Attachment #2:
Public Comment/20
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Public Comment No. 33-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 3.3.41 ]
3.3.41 Record Drawing (As-Built).
Drawings that document the installed layout, including piping and the location of all devices, appliances,
wiring sequences, wiring methods, and connections to the components of the system as installed
A design, working drawing, or as-built drawing that is submitted as the final record of documentation for the
project .
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
This puts the section back to the language in the previous edition. The revision was taken from NFPA 72 and uses
terms that are not common in the fire pump industry. Traditionally, "as built" drawings are prepared by the
sprinkler contractor and do not include wiring diagrams or wiring sequences. These might be provided by the
electrician or the controller manufacturer, but they are separate from the as built drawings that would show the
water-filled pipe provided by the sprinkler contractor.
Related Item
First Revision No. 3-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 3.3.41]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: Kenneth Isman
Organization:
National Fire Sprinkler Association
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Thu May 08 16:22:22 EDT 2014
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Public Comment No. 35-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 4.3.1 ]
4.3.1
In the event of fire pump operation that is not a part of a scheduled weekly or monthly churn test , qualified
personnel shall respond to the fire pump location to determine that the fire pump is operating in a
satisfactory manner.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
First Revisions 58 and 59 permit an automatic timer to shut off the fire pump. This implies that the committee
intends to allow fire pumps to run unattended during the weekly or monthly churn test. While we are not
particularly in favor of that idea, we note that such unattended running of the pump would violate this section, so it
needs to be modified. We don't know how the committee intends for the data collected during the test to be
recorded without a person present in the pump room, but assuming that a building owner could figure out how to
record this data remotely, it is possible that the pump room could be unattended.
Related Item
First Revision No. 58-NFPA 20-2013 [New Section after 10.5.2.6.3]
First Revision No. 59-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 10.5.4.2]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: Kenneth Isman
Organization:
National Fire Sprinkler Association
Affilliation:
NFSA E&S Committee
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Thu May 08 16:42:17 EDT 2014
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Public Comment No. 39-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 4.13.1.3 ]
4.13.1.3 Fire Pump Buildings or Rooms with Diesel Engines.
Fire pump buildings or rooms enclosing diesel engine pump drivers and day tanks shall be protected with
an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with NFPA 13 as an Extra Hazard Group 2
occupancy.
4.13.1.3.1 Diesel fire pump controllers shall be protected from the sprinkler spray or provided with a
National Electrical Manufacturers Association (NEMA) Type 4, waterproof enclosure(s) or an enclosure(s)
with an ingress protection (IP) rating of IP66.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
The minimum enclosure required by NFPA 20, paragraph 12.3.3.1.1 is a NEMA type 2. This is not suitable for
sprinkler spray. It is only suitable for dripping water from the vertical. Spray from a sprinkler head can directly
enter a type 2 enclosure and potentially damage or destroy the controller.
Related Item
First Revision No. 12-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 4.12.1.3]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: William Stelter
Organization:
Master Control Systems, Inc.
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Sat May 10 09:58:54 EDT 2014
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Public Comment No. 40-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 4.13.1.4 ]
4.13.1.4 Fire Pump Buildings or Rooms with Electric Drivers.
For buildings that are required to be sprinklered, fire pump buildings or rooms enclosing electric fire pump
drivers shall be protected with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with NFPA 13 as an
Ordinary Hazard Group 1 occupancy.
4.13.1.4.1 Electric fire pump controllers shall be protected from the sprinkler spray or provided with a
National Electrical Manufacturers Association (NEMA) Type 4, waterproof enclosure(s) or an enclosure(s)
with an ingress protection (IP) rating of IP66.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
The minimum enclosure required by NFPA 20, paragraph 10.3.3.1 is a NEMA type 2. This is not suitable for
sprinkler spray. It is only suitable for dripping water from the vertical. Spray from a sprinkler head can directly
enter a type 2 enclosure and potentially damage or destroy the controller.
Related Item
First Revision No. 12-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 4.12.1.3]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: William Stelter
Organization:
Master Control Systems, Inc.
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Sat May 10 10:16:27 EDT 2014
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Public Comment No. 9-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 4.13.1.4 ]
4.13.1.4 Fire Pump Buildings or Rooms with Electric Drivers.
For buildings that are required to be sprinklered, fire pump buildings or rooms enclosing electric fire pump
drivers shall be protected with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with NFPA 13 as an
Ordinary Hazard Group 1 occupancy.
Delete this new proposed clause.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
Delete this new clause. No reason has been given to deviate from Table 4.12.1.1.2. No new evidence has been
given to indicate that an electric fire pump is more of a fire hazard than previously. Further, spraying fire water on
electical equipment (motor and controller) is not good practice. This especially since the controller is protected
only from vertical dripping water, wheras fire water from sprinklers is not only vertical.
Related Item
First Revision No. 12-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 4.12.1.3]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: James Nasby
Organization:
Columbia Engineering
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Mon Apr 14 17:52:01 EDT 2014
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Public Comment No. 51-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 4.13.2.1.1 [Excluding any
Sub-Sections] ]
Except as provided in 4.13.2.1.1.1, fire pump rooms not directly accessible from the outside shall be
accessible through an enclosed passageway from an enclosed stairway or exterior exit, provided neither of
which are part of a required means of egress .
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
NFPA's Building Code Development Committee (BCDC) agrees that a passageway from the exterior to a fire
pump room is acceptable. We think it should not interfere with a required means of egress. This Public Comment
is related to Public Input #134 but revises the text from Public Input #134. This allows the existing access from a
room that is normally unoccupied, and therefore not needing a means of egress.
This change does not affect the FR30 for a local application.
Related Item
Public Input No. 134-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 4.12.2.1.1]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: Jim Muir
Organization:
Building Safety Division, Clark County, Washington
Affilliation:
NFPA's Building Code Development Committee (BCDC)
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Thu May 15 13:18:45 EDT 2014
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Public Comment No. 10-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 4.19.7.2 [Excluding any
Sub-Sections] ]
Where pump discharge water is piped back to pump suction and the pump is driven by a diesel engine with
heat exchanger cooling, the controller shall provide a visual indicator and audible alarm and stop the engine
when a high cooling water temperature signal as required by 11.2.4.4.8 is received, provided there are no
active emergency requirements for the pump to run. This includes; fire water demand, remote switch
actuation and deluge valve or fire detection signal to run.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
As written, the test in not very enforceable, if at all, since no definition is given for "active emergency requirements
for the pump to run". This is too esoteric as well as too vague.
Related Item
First Revision No. 75-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 4.18.7.2 [Excluding any Sub-Sections]]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: James Nasby
Organization:
Columbia Engineering
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Mon Apr 14 18:05:50 EDT 2014
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Public Comment No. 41-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 4.20.2.9.2 ]
4.20.2.9.2
Series fire pump controller(s) shall be provided with the extra contacts for remote indication in accordance
with 4.20.2.9.1.1 or 4.20.2.9.1.2.
4.20.2.9.2.1
Where other means are used to communicate this information, the extra contacts in 4.20.2.9.2 are not
required.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
To provide all the information and signals required in 4.20.2.2 and 4.20.2.9 a network connection will most likely be
supplied between controllers. This comment will allow signals by extra contacts and by other means such as a
network connection.
Related Item
First Revision No. 35-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 4.19.2]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: William Stelter
Organization:
Master Control Systems, Inc.
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Sat May 10 10:24:16 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 11-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 4.28.4.6 ]
4.28.4.6
Retroactive installation of a backflow prevention device shall not reduce the suction pressure below that
permitted in this standard and accepted by the authority having jurisdiction. This shall not apply to
backflow prevention devices retroactively installed prior to the adoption of the adoption of this edition of this
standard.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
It is not clear that extant installations need not comply with this new requirement since the term "retroactive
installation" is used.
Related Item
First Revision No. 36-NFPA 20-2013 [New Section after 4.27.4.5]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: James Nasby
Organization:
Columbia Engineering
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Mon Apr 14 18:18:59 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 12-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 4.28.4.6 ]
4.28.4.6
Retroactive installation of a backflow prevention device shall not reduce the suction pressure below that
permitted in this standard and accepted by the authority having jurisdiction. This shall not apply to
backflow prevention devices retroactively installed prior to the adoption of the adoption of this edition of this
standard.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
It is not clear that extant installations need not comply with this new requirement since the term "retroactive
installation" is used.
Related Item
First Revision No. 36-NFPA 20-2013 [New Section after 4.27.4.5]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: James Nasby
Organization:
Columbia Engineering
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Mon Apr 14 18:22:38 EDT 2014
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Public Comment No. 23-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 4.30.1 ]
4.30.1
A packaged fire pump assembly, with or without an enclosure, shall meet all of the following requirements:
(1) The components shall be assembled and affixed onto a steel framing structure.
(2) Welders shall be qualified in accordance with the Section 9 of ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code
or with the American Welding Society AWS D1.1, Structural Welding Code — Steel.
(1) The
assembly shall be listed for fire pump service.
(2) The total assembly shall be engineered and designed by a system designer as referenced in 4.3.2.
(3) All plans and data sheets shall be submitted and reviewed by the authority having jurisdiction, with
copies of the stamped approved submittals used in the assembly and for record keeping.
Additional Proposed Changes
File Name
20_Keeping_Comment_4-29-1.pdf
Description Approved
PC form
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
The Committee Statement did not provide a satisfactory explanation as to why a prepackaged fire pump assembly
would need to be listed. It only made some vague reference to problems with some pump packages. It did not
offer any details as to what these problems may be, so they cannot be addressed at this phase. Concerning
problems with prepackaged fire pump assemblies however, it is hard to image how they could be
more severe than those associated with fire pump systems that are taken to the job site in component pieces and
assembled there in the field.
Additionally, the Committee Statement did not offer any comment on the Substantiation (copied below for
reference) that was provided with the Public Input. It did not speak to the points about the current requirement:
- Limiting who can build prepackaged assemblies;
- Limiting the ability to provide customized skids to meet a client’s specific needs;
- That there should be no differences in the acceptability of prepackaged assemblies vs. systems assembled on
the job sites; and
- The fallacy of the previous cycle Proposals, 20-16 & 20-17 attributing unit responsibility to the fire pump
manufacturer.
Public Input Substantiation:
There is no need to require a packaged fire pump assembly to be specifically listed. This requirement basically
limits the supply of packaged fire pump assemblies to ones produced solely by fire pump manufacturers and limits
the ability of fire protection contractors to supply customized skids to suit a client’s specific needs.
There should be no differences in the acceptability between a package that a contractor prepares off site and
ships preassembled to the job site, from one that is taken to the job site in its component pieces and is assembled
there. They are both fire pump units that must be installed, inspected and tested in the same manner.
During the previous revision cycle, Proposals 20-16 and 20-17 argued that it is the fire pump manufacturer that
has unit responsibility, but this is not correct. As noted in A.4.4.1, the entity designated as having unit responsibility
is responsible for the pump, the driver, the controller, the transfer switch and the accessories. Each of these
components is generally made by a different manufacturer, so none of them would be the single entity that could
answer and resolve all problems. Thus the unit responsibility must move further up the supply chain. Naturally
though, the entity with unit responsibility often has to consult with one or more of the manufacturers to resolve any
questions or problems.
As noted, it should be no different, no matter where or in what order the components are assembled.
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Related Item
Committee Input No. 24-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 4.29.1]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: Larry Keeping
Organization:
Professional Loss Control
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Thu Apr 24 13:43:25 EDT 2014
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Public Comment No. 34-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 5.5 ]
5.5 Auxiliary Power.
Where electric motors are used, a reliable emergency source of power in or a back-up fire pump in
accordance with Section 9.6 3 shall be provided for the fire pump installation.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
A diesel engine back-up fire pump should be permitted as an alternative to a generator. Chapter 9 already allows
this and Chapter 5 should not over-ride Chapter 9.
Related Item
First Revision No. 44-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 5.5]
First Revision No. 137-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 9.3.1]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: Kenneth Isman
Organization:
National Fire Sprinkler Association
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Thu May 08 16:31:41 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 13-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 5.6.1.4 ]
5.6.1.4
Each refill valve shall be sized and arranged to independently refill the tank in a maximum time of 8
hours. supply the system fiure protection demand. I.E.: Revert to original wording.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
This section applies to "Very Tall Buildings" where the building height exceeds the pumping capacity of the fire
department apparatus. While I agree that in certain circumstances the refill rate being equal to the fire protection
demand can be difficult to achieve, the proposed change to an 8 hour refill time is not sufficent to ensure a
reasonable refill rate to maintain building fire protection. In most cases the water supply duration requirement will
be 30 or 60 minutes total. Going from a 1:1 to a 1:16 or 1:8 refill ratio leaves the building without fire protection for
far too long in context of a very tall building where evacuation times are lenghthy and/or protect in place stratgies
are used and there is sole reliance on the building fire protection water supply.
The original requirements were written to permit up to 1/2 of the total stored demand to be out of service with the
understanding that refill rate would compensate for the storage out of service. Where the refill comes from a
standpipe below this can be accomplished at minimal cost (larger refill pipe and valve from the top of a standpipe
to a tank). For a ground level tank the municipal supply must make up the refill. The originally required refill rate is
a minimal cost item that should apply to all high rise building where evacuation is impractical.
Related Item
First Revision No. 60-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 5.6.1.4]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: James Nasby
Organization:
Columbia Engineering
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Mon Apr 14 18:32:07 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 50-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 5.6.1.4 ]
5.6.1.4
Each refill valve shall be sized and arranged to independently refill the tank in a maximum time of 8 of 4
hours.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
NFPA's Building Code Development Committee (BCDC) agrees with the intent of this First Revision. This Public
Comment would require each refill valve shall be sized and arranged to independently refill the tank in a maximum
time of 4-hours, rather than 8 hours. The current code requires that the storage tank refill at a very quick rate.
The proposed language in FR #60 allows for a maximum of 8 hours to refill the tank, which appears to be an
excessive amount of time without full capabilities of water supply. Fire flow requirements set forth in NFPA 1
section 18.4.5.1.2 have a maximum duration for the largest buildings at four hours. A four-hour time period would
allow the system to be up to full capabilities much faster without the extreme draw that is currently allowed.
Related Item
First Revision No. 60-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 5.6.1.4]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: Jim Muir
Organization:
Building Safety Division, Clark County, Washington
Affilliation:
NFPA's Building Code Development Committee (BCDC)
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Thu May 15 13:08:50 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 42-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 9.6.5.3 ]
9.6.5.3
The fire pump circuit breaker shall not be required to be coordinated with the generator power source
protective device provided it is used as a an individual branch circuit breaker and is coordinated with all
other line side protective devices, where used .
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
NFPA 70 has several definitions for a branch circuit. The "Branch Circuit, Individual" definition is most appropriate
for this use. Also, "where used" was added since other line side protective devices are not always used.
Related Item
First Revision No. 49-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 9.6.5]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: William Stelter
Organization:
Master Control Systems, Inc.
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Sat May 10 10:36:51 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 43-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 10.3.4.5.3 ]
10.3.4.5.3
Except as provided in 4.20.2. 3 2(1) and 10.9.4 , remote shutdown or interlock to prevent normal operation
shall not be permitted unless approved by the authority having jurisdiction.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
Paragraph reference corrected and added the reference to10.9.4 which specifically allows shutdown under
specified conditions.
Related Item
First Revision No. 52-NFPA 20-2013 [New Section after 10.3.4.5.2]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: William Stelter
Organization:
Master Control Systems, Inc.
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Sat May 10 11:01:03 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 44-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 10.5.2.1.1.2 ]
10.5.2.1.1.2
For multistage multiport pumps, a separate pressure-actuated switch or electronic pressure sensor as
described in 10.5.2.1.1.1 shall be provided for each discharge port of the pump as part of the controller.
10.5.2.1.1.3
There For multistage multiport pumps, a separate pressure recorder as described in 10.5.2.1.7.2 shall be
provided for each discharge port of the pump as part of the controller.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
This will add a requirement to monitor the pressure in each zone as is the case with individual pumps in each zone.
Related Item
First Revision No. 126-NFPA 20-2013 [Sections 10.5.2.1.1.1, 10.5.2.1.1.2]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: William Stelter
Organization:
Master Control Systems, Inc.
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Sat May 10 11:08:31 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 52-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 10.5.2.1.3.1 ]
10.5.2.1.3.1 *
Where the transducer pressure reading exceeds 10 psi (0.68 bar) during any automatic pump start that
was initiated by the solenoid drain valve, as required by 10.5.2.1.8.3 , the controller shall activate a visual
and audible alarm, that can be silenced.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
The clause is overly restrictive by requiring pressure to be limited to a maximum of 10psi (No technical data has
been presented to support this level) when the solenoid drain valve is opened. The intent of the clause is already
addressed by clause 10.5.2.7.5 (Automatic testing section) which requires the transducer output pressure reading
to fall below the system low pressure start point, and initiate an automatic start, or an alarm is activated.
Related Item
First Revision No. 53-NFPA 20-2013 [New Section after 10.5.2.1.2]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: CAM WORKMAN
Organization:
EATON
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Fri May 16 12:10:39 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 7-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 10.5.2.7.1 ]
10.5.2.7.1
Where permitted by the AHJ, The controller equipment shall be arranged to automatically start, run, and
shut down the motor at the minimum no-flow test frequency and duration required by NFPA 25.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
The proposed wording circumvents of the AHJ’s authority by allowing an automatic start then shutdown in the first
circumstance even when the AHJ has decided that it must be manual. There are compelling reasons for an AHJ to
require manual shutdown under all circumstances and it is the AHJ prerogative to enforce the arrangement that he
deems appropriate. The Standard should not be dictating the AHJ as how fire pumps are to be arranged in his
jurisdiction. The AHJ is still the final word on accepting an installation. NFPA 25 requires a person to be in
attendance when a fire pump is running.
Related Public Comments for This Document
Related Comment
Relationship
Public Comment No. 5-NFPA 20-2014 [Section No. 12.7.2.7.1]
Public Comment No. 6-NFPA 20-2014 [Section No. 12.7.5.2.1]
Related Item
First Revision No. 66-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 12.7.5.2]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: John Chartier
Organization:
Northeastern Regional Fire Cod
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Mon Apr 07 12:18:47 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 16-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 10.5.4.2.1 ]
Revert to extant 10.5.4.2 text . 1
Automatic shutdown shall be permitted only in the following circumstances:
(1) During automatic testing in accordance with 10.5.2.7
(2) Where approved by the authority having jurisdiction for non-testing conditions
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
No good reason has been given for eliminating automatic stopping for pumps which are not sole source pumps.
This will cause any number of pumps to burn up, which is why Chicago requires automatic stopping of ALL electric
fire pumps. While I feel that sole source pumps should require manual stopping, this seems excessive where
multiple pumps are involved. The net result will be to REDUCE the reliability of fire protection on many of these
cases rather than either maintaining or enhancing said reliability.
Related Item
First Revision No. 59-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 10.5.4.2]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: James Nasby
Organization:
Columbia Engineering
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Wed Apr 16 18:50:49 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 8-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 10.5.4.2.1 ]
10.5.4.2.1
Automatic shutdown shall be permitted only in the following circumstances:
(1) During automatic testing in accordance with 10.5.2.7 when permitted by the AHJ
(2) Where approved by the authority having jurisdiction for non-testing conditions
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
The proposed wording circumvents of the AHJ’s authority by allowing an automatic start then shutdown in the first
circumstance even when the AHJ has decided that it must be manual. There are compelling reasons for an AHJ to
require manual shutdown under all circumstances and it is the AHJ prerogative to enforce the arrangement that he
deems appropriate. The Standard should not be dictating the AHJ as how fire pumps are to be arranged in his
jurisdiction. The AHJ is still the final word on accepting an installation. NFPA 25 requires a person to be in
attendance when a fire pump is running.
Related Public Comments for This Document
Related Comment
Relationship
Public Comment No. 5-NFPA 20-2014 [Section No. 12.7.2.7.1]
Public Comment No. 6-NFPA 20-2014 [Section No. 12.7.5.2.1]
Public Comment No. 7-NFPA 20-2014 [Section No. 10.5.2.7.1]
Related Item
First Revision No. 66-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 12.7.5.2]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: John Chartier
Organization:
Northeastern Regional Fire Cod
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Mon Apr 07 12:22:09 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 17-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 10.5.4.2.2 ]
Revert to extant 10.5.4.2 text . 2
Where automatic shutdown after automatic start is permitted, a minimum run timer set for at least 10
minutes shall be used.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
No good reason has been given for eliminating automatic stopping for pumps which are not sole source pumps.
This will cause any number of pumps to burn up, which is why Chicago requires automatic stopping of ALL electric
fire pumps. While I feel that sole source pumps should require manual stopping, this seems excessive where
multiple pumps are involved. The net result will be to REDUCE the reliability of fire protection on many of these
cases rather than either maintaining or enhancing said reliability.
Related Item
First Revision No. 59-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 10.5.4.2]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: James Nasby
Organization:
Columbia Engineering
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Wed Apr 16 18:55:40 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 32-NFPA 20-2014 [ New Section after 10.8.2.2 ]
Add new paragraph to the end of 10.8.2.2
10.8.2.2(7) The transfer switch shall be the delayed transition type with a maximum delay time of 3 seconds.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
The delayed transition transfer switch eliminates the higher than normal in-rush currents when transferring the fire
pump motor from one source to the other. This is a transfer switch listed for emergency systems (NFPA 70 Article
700).
Related Public Comments for This Document
Related Comment
Relationship
Public Comment No. 31-NFPA 20-2014 [Section No. 10.8.3.10.1]
Related Item
First Revision No. 101-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 10.8.2.2]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: William Stelter
Organization:
Master Control Systems, Inc.
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Wed May 07 05:32:21 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 47-NFPA 20-2014 [ New Section after 10.8.2.2 ]
10.8.2.2.1 Listed Complete Power Transfer Unit
The separate transfer switch unit shall be Listed for fire protection service as a complete unit. It shall
include all of the items in (1) thru (6) above and include field wiring terminals for the required alarm circuitry
and generator start control wiring. It shall meet all of the requirements in 10.8.3. [Renember extant text as
10.8.2.2.2.]
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
Extent text does not require nor name a single entity or who is to be responsible for Arrangement II power transfer
equipment, although the fire pump controller is covered. Extent text allows a potpourri of various components to
be mounted and installed which may or may not be coordinated, safe or reliable. The power transfer equipment
should be by a single entity, and listed as such, as is the fire pump controller and as the combination unit is in
Arrangement I in 10.8.2.1.
Related Item
Public Input No. 101-NFPA 20-2013 [New Section after 11.4.4.2]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: James Nasby
Organization:
Columbia Engineering
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Wed May 14 15:57:52 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 31-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 10.8.3.10.1 ]
10.8.3.10.1
The use of an “in-phase monitor” or an intentional delay via an open neutral position of the transfer switch
to comply with the requirements of 10.8.3.10 shall be prohibited.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
A delayed transition transfer switch eliminates the need for an interface between the transfer switch and fire pump
controller. Also, UL 1008-7, paragraph E2.16 only restricts the use of the "In-phase monitor".
Related Item
First Revision No. 101-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 10.8.2.2]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: William Stelter
Organization:
Master Control Systems, Inc.
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Wed May 07 03:51:47 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 48-NFPA 20-2014 [ New Section after 10.8.3.12 ]
10.8.3.12.3 Fault Tolerance
The generator starting circuit shall meet the requirements of Clause 10.5.2.6. Acceptable means, among
others are below:
10.8.3.12.3(1) Supervise the voltage at the normally open contacts, if these are used to start the generator.
10.8.3.12.3(2) Supervise the current flowing thrugh the normally closed contacts, if these are used to start
the generator.
10.8.3.12.3(3) Add a drop-out relay in the generator control panel wired to the normally closed transfer
switch generator start contacts powered by the generator battery when the normally open contacts are
used to start the generator. Normally closed contacts of this relay shall be wired to the generator normally
open start cricuit.
10.8.3.12.3(4) Add a pick-up relay in the generator control panel wired to the normally closed transfer
switch generator start contacts powered by the generator battery when the normally closed contacts are
used to start the generator. Normally open contacts of this relay shall be wired in series with the generator
normally closed start cricuit.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
The requirements of 10.5.2.6 are moot if the combination controller or if the Arrangement II transfer switch unit
looses control of the stand-by generator due to an open circuit in a normally open circuit control loop, or a short
circuit in a normally closed loop or a ground which may also inhibit the generator from starting, depending on
where it occurs.
Related Item
Public Input No. 101-NFPA 20-2013 [New Section after 11.4.4.2]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: James Nasby
Organization:
Columbia Engineering
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Wed May 14 16:32:35 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 18-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 11.2.4.3.4.1.1 ]
11.2.4.3.4.1.1 *
Pressure sensing line(s) shall be installed with a connection to the pipe that is in horizontal orientation to
the pressure source Delete this proposed new clause or move it to the Annex A .
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
It's not clear what "horizontal orientation to the pressure source" means. I don't know what the proposed piping
will look like. No reason has been given to force this arrangement on all variable speed engine and engine
manufacturers.
Related Item
First Revision No. 72-NFPA 20-2013 [New Section after 11.2.4.3.4.1]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: James Nasby
Organization:
Columbia Engineering
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Wed Apr 16 19:08:27 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 36-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 11.2.4.3.4.1.1 ]
11.2.4.3.4.1.1 *
Pressure sensing line(s) shall be installed with a connection to the pipe that is in horizontal orientation to
the pressure source.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
The term "horizontal orientation to the pressure source" is difficult to understand and enforce. A vertical sensing
line would work from underneath with a drop leg to allow sediment to drop down and be cleaned out.
Related Item
First Revision No. 72-NFPA 20-2013 [New Section after 11.2.4.3.4.1]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: Kenneth Isman
Organization:
National Fire Sprinkler Association
Affilliation:
E&S Committee
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Thu May 08 16:54:37 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 38-NFPA 20-2014 [ New Section after 11.4.1.6.3 ]
11.4.1.6.4
Vents from interstitial spaces of double-wall tanks shall meet 11.4.1.6.2 and 11.4.1.6.3 and shall not be
manifolded together with a vent from the primary portion of the tank.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
NFPA 20 needs to clarify that the rules for the vent from the main portion of the tank also apply to the vent from the
interstitial space. Also, the standard needs to clarify that the vents cannot be manifolded together. Manifolding
the tanks might allow pressure to build up in a portion of the tank rather than vent properly.
Related Item
First Revision No. 147-NFPA 20-2013 [Global Input]
First Revision No. 149-NFPA 20-2013 [Global Input]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: Kenneth Isman
Organization:
National Fire Sprinkler Association
Affilliation:
NFSA E&S Committee
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Thu May 08 17:13:04 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 45-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 12.7.2.1.1.2 ]
12.7.2.1.1.2
For multistage multiport pumps a separate pressure-actuated switch or electronic pressure sensor as
described in 12.7.2.1.1.1 shall be provided for each discharge port of the pump as part of the controller.
12.7.2.1.1.3
For multistage multiport pumps, a separate pressure recorder as described in 12.4.4.1 shall be
provided for each discharge port of the pump as part of the controller.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
This will add a requirement to monitor the pressure in each zone as is the case with individual pumps in each zone.
Related Item
First Revision No. 127-NFPA 20-2013 [Sections 12.7.2.1.1.1, 12.7.2.1.1.2]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: William Stelter
Organization:
Master Control Systems, Inc.
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Sat May 10 11:20:44 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 5-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 12.7.2.7.1 ]
12.7.2.7.1
The Where permitted by the AHJ, the controller equipment shall be arranged to automatically start, run,
and shut down the engine at the minimum no-flow test frequency and duration required by NFPA 25.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
The proposed wording circumvents of the AHJ’s authority by allowing an automatic start then shutdown in the first
circumstance even when the AHJ has decided that it must be manual. There are compelling reasons for an AHJ to
require manual shutdown under all circumstances and it is the AHJ prerogative to enforce the arrangement that he
deems appropriate. The Standard should not be dictating the AHJ as how fire pumps are to be arranged in his
jurisdiction. The AHJ is still the final word on accepting an installation. NFPA 25 requires a person to be in
attendance when a fire pump is running.
Related Item
First Revision No. 66-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 12.7.5.2]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: John Chartier
Organization:
Northeastern Regional Fire Cod
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Mon Apr 07 12:12:19 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 19-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 12.7.5.2 [Excluding any
Sub-Sections] ]
Automatic shutdown shall not be permitted if starting and running causes are present.
Delete this clause and revert to extant text of 12.7.5.2
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
No good reason has been given for eliminating automatic stopping for pumps which are not sole source pumps.
Based on filet experience this will cause any number of pumps to burn up for no good reason. While sole source
pumps should require manual stopping, the proposed text is excessively restrictive where multiple pumps are
involved. The net result will be to REDUCE, rather than enhance, the reliability of fire protection on many of these
cases rather than either maintaining or enhancing said reliability.
Also, the proposed wording allows an automatic shutdown in one circumstance even when the AHJ may decide
that it must be manual. This is a direct circumvent of the AHJ’s authority as defined in 3.2.2. Indeed, there may be
compelling reasons for automatic shutdown during automatic testing and if the AHJ agrees, then so be it.
However, if the AHJ has other reasons to require it to be manually shutdown or if the reasoning to shut down
automatically is not compelling, the AHJ is still the final word on accepting an installation
Related Item
First Revision No. 66-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 12.7.5.2]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: James Nasby
Organization:
Columbia Engineering
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Wed Apr 16 19:27:21 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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Public Comment No. 20-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 12.7.5.2.1 ]
Delete this clause and revert to extant text of 12.7.5.2
.1
Automatic shutdown shall be permitted only in the following circumstances:
(1) *
During automatic testing in accordance with 12.7.2.7 .
(2) When the engine overspeed shutdown device operates:
(3) The controller shall remove power from the engine running devices, prevent further cranking,
energize the overspeed fire pump alarm, and lock out until manually reset.
(4) Resetting of the overspeed circuit shall be required at the engine and by resetting the controller
main switch to the off position.
(5) The controller shall not be capable of being reset until the engine overspeed shutdown device is
manually reset.
(6) Where approved by the authority having jurisdiction.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
No good reason has been given for eliminating automatic stopping for pumps which are not sole source pumps.
Based on filet experience this will cause any number of pumps to burn up for no good reason. While sole source
pumps should require manual stopping, the proposed text is excessively restrictive where multiple pumps are
involved. The net result will be to REDUCE, rather than enhance, the reliability of fire protection on many of these
cases rather than either maintaining or enhancing said reliability.
Also, the proposed wording allows an automatic shutdown in one circumstance even when the AHJ may decide
that it must be manual. This is a direct circumvent of the AHJ’s authority as defined in 3.2.2. Indeed, there may be
compelling reasons for automatic shutdown during automatic testing and if the AHJ agrees, then so be it.
However, if the AHJ has other reasons to require it to be manually shutdown or if the reasoning to shut down
automatically is not compelling, the AHJ is still the final word on accepting an installation
Related Item
First Revision No. 66-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 12.7.5.2]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: James Nasby
Organization:
Columbia Engineering
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Wed Apr 16 19:33:56 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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35 of 37
http://submittals.nfpa.org/TerraViewWeb/ContentFetcher?commentPara...
Public Comment No. 21-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 12.7.5.2.1 ]
Delete this clause and revert to extant text of 12.7.5.2.
1
Automatic shutdown shall be permitted only in the following circumstances:
(1) *
During automatic testing in accordance with 12.7.2.7 .
(2) When the engine overspeed shutdown device operates:
(3) The controller shall remove power from the engine running devices, prevent further cranking,
energize the overspeed fire pump alarm, and lock out until manually reset.
(4) Resetting of the overspeed circuit shall be required at the engine and by resetting the controller
main switch to the off position.
(5) The controller shall not be capable of being reset until the engine overspeed shutdown device is
manually reset.
(6) Where approved by the authority having jurisdiction.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
No good reason has been given for eliminating automatic stopping for pumps which are not sole source pumps.
Based on filet experience this will cause any number of pumps to burn up for no good reason. While sole source
pumps should require manual stopping, the proposed text is excessively restrictive where multiple pumps are
involved. The net result will be to REDUCE, rather than enhance, the reliability of fire protection on many of these
cases rather than either maintaining or enhancing said reliability.
Also, the proposed wording allows an automatic shutdown in one circumstance even when the AHJ may decide
that it must be manual. This is a direct circumvent of the AHJ’s authority as defined in 3.2.2. Indeed, there may be
compelling reasons for automatic shutdown during automatic testing and if the AHJ agrees, then so be it.
However, if the AHJ has other reasons to require it to be manually shutdown or if the reasoning to shut down
automatically is not compelling, the AHJ is still the final word on accepting an installation
Related Item
First Revision No. 66-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 12.7.5.2]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: James Nasby
Organization:
Columbia Engineering
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Wed Apr 16 19:35:55 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
National Fire Protection Association Report
36 of 37
http://submittals.nfpa.org/TerraViewWeb/ContentFetcher?commentPara...
Public Comment No. 6-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. 12.7.5.2.1 ]
12.7.5.2.1
Automatic shutdown shall be permitted only in the following circumstances:
(1) * During automatic testing in accordance with 12.7.2.7 , when permitted by the AHJ .
(2) When the engine overspeed shutdown device operates:
(a) The controller shall remove power from the engine running devices, prevent further cranking,
energize the overspeed fire pump alarm, and lock out until manually reset.
(b) Resetting of the overspeed circuit shall be required at the engine and by resetting the controller
main switch to the off position.
(c) The controller shall not be capable of being reset until the engine overspeed shutdown device is
manually reset.
(3) Where approved by the authority having jurisdiction.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
The proposed wording circumvents of the AHJ’s authority by allowing an automatic start then shutdown in the first
circumstance even when the AHJ has decided that it must be manual. There are compelling reasons for an AHJ to
require manual shutdown under all circumstances and it is the AHJ prerogative to enforce the arrangement that he
deems appropriate. The Standard should not be dictating the AHJ as how fire pumps are to be arranged in his
jurisdiction. The AHJ is still the final word on accepting an installation. NFPA 25 requires a person to be in
attendance when a fire pump is running.
Related Public Comments for This Document
Related Comment
Relationship
Public Comment No. 5-NFPA 20-2014 [Section No. 12.7.2.7.1]
Related Item
First Revision No. 66-NFPA 20-2013 [Section No. 12.7.5.2]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: John Chartier
Organization:
Northeastern Regional Fire Cod
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Mon Apr 07 12:16:14 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
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37 of 37
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Public Comment No. 37-NFPA 20-2014 [ Section No. A.11.2.4.3.4.1.1 ]
A.11.2.4.3.4.1.1
The pressure sensing line could be installed in a vertical orientation in either the top or bottom of the pipe,
however, if it is installed at the bottom it has the opportunity to gather debris, and if it is installed at the top it
has the opportunity to receive air.
Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Comment
The section that this is tied to has been proposed for elimination. Even if the section stays, telling people that they
can install something vertically when the main body of the standard says that it must be horizontal is wrong.
Related Public Comments for This Document
Related Comment
Relationship
Public Comment No. 36-NFPA 20-2014 [Section No. 11.2.4.3.4.1.1]
Related Item
First Revision No. 72-NFPA 20-2013 [New Section after 11.2.4.3.4.1]
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name: Kenneth Isman
Organization:
National Fire Sprinkler Association
Affilliation:
NFSA E&S Committee
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date:
Thu May 08 16:57:57 EDT 2014
6/4/2014 9:15 AM
Attachment #3:
Committee Roster
09/18/2014
Chad Duffy
FIM-AAA
Address List No Phone
Fire Pumps
Gayle Pennel
Chair
Aon Fire Protection Engineering
4 Overlook Point
Lincolnshire, IL 60069-4302
Michael E. Aaron
Principal
Hughes Associates/RJA Group
600 West Fulton Street, Suite 500
Chicago, IL 60661-1241
Alternate: Timothy J. LaRose
I 4/17/1998 R. T. Leicht
FIM-AAA Secretary
State of Delaware
Office of State Fire Marshal
4 Drummond Drive
Wilmington, DE 19808
International Fire Marshals Association
Alternate: Michael R. Moran
SE 10/28/2008 Timothy Ballengee
FIM-AAA Principal
Peerless Pump Company
2500 Regency Parkway
Cary, NC 27518
Alternate: Timothy Jordan
James A. Beals
Principal
Jacobs Engineering
1100 North Glebe Road, Suite 500
Arlington, VA 22201
SE 11/2/2006 Thomas R. Boccetti
FIM-AAA Principal
The DuPont Company, Inc.
Brandywine 7211
1007 Market Street
Wilmington, DE 19898
NFPA Industrial Fire Protection Section
Marinus Both
Principal
Western States Fire Protection Company
d.b.a. Statewide Fire Protection
3130 Westwood Drive
Las Vegas, NV 89109
Alternate: Michael Koska
IM 7/28/2006 Pat D. Brock
FIM-AAA Principal
Oklahoma State University
Fire Protection & Safety Technology
1424 West Liberty Avenue
Stillwater, OK 74075
Alternate: Floyd Luinstra
Hugh D. Castles
Principal
Entergy Services, Inc.
213 Travis Trail
Madison, MS 39110
Edison Electric Institute
Mohammad Dadgardoust
Principal
Leber/Rubes Inc. (LRI)
2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2100
Toronto, ON M4P 1E4 Canada
Alternate: A. M. Fred Leber
U 10/3/2002 Stephen A. Clark, Jr.
FIM-AAA Principal
Allianz Risk Consulting, LLC
1003 Reece Drive
Hoschton, GA 30548
Alternate: Andrew C. Higgins
SE 08/09/2012 Alan A. Dorini
FIM-AAA Principal
Gulfstream Pump & Equipment, Inc.
PO Box 14543
Fort Lauderdale, FL 33302
Alternate: Jerald G. Huff
E 1/1/1990
FIM-AAA
M 3/15/2007
FIM-AAA
U 4/3/2003
FIM-AAA
SE 7/1/1996
FIM-AAA
I 3/4/2008
FIM-AAA
IM 1/1/1990
FIM-AAA
1
09/18/2014
Chad Duffy
FIM-AAA
Address List No Phone
Fire Pumps
David B. Fuller
Principal
FM Global
1151 Boston Providence Turnpike
PO Box 9102
Norwood, MA 02062-9102
Alternate: Matthew Paine
David R. Hague
Principal
Liberty Mutual Insurance
20 Riverside Road
Weston, MA 02493-2231
Alternate: Joseph R. Sanford
Hatem Ezzat Kheir
Principal
Kheir Group
24B Anwer El Mofty Street
Nasr City, Cairo, Egypt
Alternate: Mohamed Ezzat Kheir
Jennifer A. McGrath
Principal
Pentair
800 Airport Road
North Aurora, IL 60542
Alternate: Leroy Franklin
James S. Nasby
Principal
Columbia Engineering
8210 Karlov Avenue
Skokie, IL 60076-2736
Milosh T. Puchovsky
Principal
Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Department of Fire Protection Engineering
100 Institute Road
Worcester, MA 01609
I 10/6/2000 Dana R. Haagensen
FIM-AAA Principal
Framingham Fire Department
10 Loring Drive
Framingham, MA 01702-8767
Alternate: Bradford T. Cronin
I 3/4/2009 Bill M. Harvey
FIM-AAA Principal
Harvey & Associates, Inc.
PO Box 818
Fountain Inn, SC 29644
American Fire Sprinkler Association
Alternate: Thomas G. Wellen
IM 7/22/1999 John R. Kovacik
FIM-AAA Principal
UL LLC
333 Pfingsten Road
Northbrook, IL 60062-2096
Alternate: Kerry M. Bell
M 3/1/2011 Charles W. McKnight
FIM-AAA Principal
Battelle Energy Alliance
PO Box 1625, Mail Stop 3425
Idaho Falls, ID 83415
SE 10/28/2008 Peter Placidus Petrus
FIM-AAA Principal
Indonesian Fire & Rescue Foundation
Indonesian Fire Service Association
Jalan Alam Asri 1/TK. 33
Jakarta, 12310 Indonesia
SE 8/2/2010 Jeffrey R. Roberts
FIM-AAA Principal
XL Global Asset Protection Services
128 Twin Oaks Drive
Brandon, MS 39047
Alternate: Brandon W. Frakes
E 01/14/2005
FIM-AAA
IM 7/20/2000
FIM-AAA
RT 1/1/1990
FIM-AAA
U 7/29/2005
FIM-AAA
E 10/18/2011
FIM-AAA
I 7/12/2001
FIM-AAA
2
09/18/2014
Chad Duffy
FIM-AAA
Address List No Phone
Fire Pumps
Michael A. Rothmier
L 03/05/2012
Principal
FIM-AAA
UA Joint Apprenticeship Committee LU 669
1315 Berrytree Drive
Sugarland, TX 77479
United Assn. of Journeymen & Apprentices of the
Plumbing & Pipe Fitting Industry
Alternate: Gregory A. Bartels
Richard Schneider
M 1/1/1990
Principal
FIM-AAA
Joslyn Clark Controls
1202 W. Manor Drive
Lancaster, SC 29720
National Electrical Manufacturers Association
Alternate: William F. Stelter
Darrell A. Snyder
Principal
Patterson Pump Company
2129 Ayersville Road
PO Box 790
Toccoa, GA 30577
Hydraulic Institute
Alternate: John P. Kahren
M 4/3/2003 Hansford Stewart
FIM-AAA Principal
Xylem/A-C Fire Pump Systems
Dallas Integrated Solutions
10661 Newkirk Street
Dallas, TX 75220
Alternate: Brian Buscher
Jim Vanden Boogard
Principal
Cummins NPower, LLC
875 Lawrence Drive
De Pere, WI 54115-3910
Alternate: John Laka
M 8/5/2009 Terry L. Victor
FIM-AAA Principal
Tyco/SimplexGrinnell
705 Digital Drive, Suite N
Linthicum, MD 21090-2267
National Fire Sprinkler Association
Alternate: Kenneth E. Isman
John Whitney
Principal
Clarke Fire Protection Products, Inc.
100 Progress Place
Cincinnati, OH 45246-1718
Alternate: Kevin Kunkler
Kerry M. Bell
Alternate
UL LLC
333 Pfingsten Road
Northbrook, IL 60062-2096
Principal: John R. Kovacik
Bradford T. Cronin
Alternate
Newport Fire Department
21 West Marlborough Street
Newport, RI 02840
Principal: Dana R. Haagensen
M 10/10/1998
FIM-AAA
IM 10/23/2003
FIM-AAA
M 10/1/1996 Gregory A. Bartels
L 03/05/2012
FIM-AAA Alternate
FIM-AAA
Sprinkler Fitters LU 669-JATC
7050 Oakland Mills Road, Suite 100
Columbia, MD 21046
United Assn. of Journeymen & Apprentices of the
Plumbing & Pipe Fitting Industry
Principal: Michael A. Rothmier
RT 4/15/2004 Brian Buscher
FIM-AAA Alternate
AC Fire Pump Systems
8200 North Austin Avenue
Morton Grove, IL 60053-3205
Principal: Hansford Stewart
E 8/2/2010 Brandon W. Frakes
FIM-AAA Alternate
XL Global Asset Protection Services
196 Shady Grove Lane
Advance, NC 27006
Principal: Jeffrey R. Roberts
M 03/03/2014
FIM-AAA
I 10/23/2003
FIM-AAA
3
09/18/2014
Chad Duffy
FIM-AAA
Address List No Phone
Fire Pumps
Leroy Franklin
Alternate
Pentair
800 Airport Road
North Aurora, IL 60542
Principal: Jennifer A. McGrath
Jerald G. Huff
Alternate
J&J Fire Protection Inc.
4628 North Hiatus Road
Sunrise, FL 33351
Principal: Alan A. Dorini
Timothy Jordan
Alternate
Grundfos/Peerless Pump Company
330 North Division Drive, Suite G
Sugar Grove, IL 60554-9800
Principal: Timothy Ballengee
Mohamed Ezzat Kheir
Alternate
Kheir Group
24B Anwer El Mofty Street
Nasr City, Cairo, 11371 Egypt
Principal: Hatem Ezzat Kheir
M 10/23/2013 Andrew C. Higgins
FIM-AAA Alternate
Allianz Risk Consultants, LLC
38 Kilbride Drive
Pinehurst, NC 28374
Principal: Stephen A. Clark, Jr.
IM 10/27/2009 Kenneth E. Isman
FIM-AAA Alternate
National Fire Sprinkler Association, Inc.
40 Jon Barrett Road
Patterson, NY 12563-2164
Principal: Terry L. Victor
M 03/03/2014 John P. Kahren
FIM-AAA Alternate
SPP Pumps, Inc.
6716 Best Friend Road
Norcross, GA 30071
Principal: Darrell A. Snyder
I 03/05/2012
FIM-AAA
IM 1/1/1990
FIM-AAA
M 10/27/2009
FIM-AAA
IM 10/29/2012 Michael Koska
IM 08/11/2014
FIM-AAA Alternate
FIM-AAA
National Fire Suppression/Western States Fire Protection
Company
501 Sunshine Road
Kansas City, KS 66115-1239
Principal: Marinus Both
Kevin Kunkler
Alternate
Clarke Fire Protection Products, Inc.
3133 East Kemper Road
Cincinnati, OH 45241
Principal: John Whitney
M 10/23/2013 John Laka
FIM-AAA Alternate
Cummins NPower, LLC
875 Lawrence Drive
De Pere, WI 54115-3910
Principal: Jim Vanden Boogard
Timothy J. LaRose
Alternate
Hughes Associates/RJA Group
6 Centerpointe Drive, Suite 760
LaPalma, CA 92646
Principal: Michael E. Aaron
SE 7/29/2005 A. M. Fred Leber
FIM-AAA Alternate
Leber/Rubes Inc. (LRI)
Yonge Eglinton Center
2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2100
PO Box 2372
Toronto, ON M4P 1E4 Canada
Principal: Mohammad Dadgardoust
M 7/23/2008
FIM-AAA
SE 08/09/2012
FIM-AAA
4
09/18/2014
Chad Duffy
FIM-AAA
Address List No Phone
Fire Pumps
Floyd Luinstra
Alternate
Oklahoma State University
499 Cordell South
Stillwater, OK 74078
Principal: Pat D. Brock
Matthew Paine
Alternate
FM Global
1151 Boston-Providence Turnpike
Norwood, MA 02062-9102
Principal: David B. Fuller
SE 10/18/2011 Michael R. Moran
FIM-AAA Alternate
State of Delaware
Office of the State Fire Marshal
2307 MacArthur Road
New Castle, DE 19720
International Fire Marshals Association
Principal: R. T. Leicht
E 10/4/2001
FIM-AAA
I 10/23/2013 Joseph R. Sanford
FIM-AAA Alternate
Liberty Mutual Property Risk Engineering
20 Riverside Road
Weston, MA 02493-2231
Principal: David R. Hague
I 8/5/2009
FIM-AAA
William F. Stelter
M 7/1/1993
Alternate
FIM-AAA
Master Control Systems, Inc.
910 North Shore Drive
PO Box 276
Lake Bluff, IL 60044
National Electrical Manufacturers Association
Principal: Richard Schneider
Thomas G. Wellen
Alternate
American Fire Sprinkler Association, Inc.
12750 Merit Drive, Suite 350
Dallas, TX 75251
Principal: Bill M. Harvey
Edward D. Leedy
Member Emeritus
2033 Butterfly Lane, CC304
Naperville, IL 60563
1/1/1990 James W. Nolan
FIM-AAA Member Emeritus
James W. Nolan Company
633 Florence Drive
Park Ridge, IL 60068
Chad Duffy
Staff Liaison
National Fire Protection Association
1 Batterymarch Park
Quincy, MA 02169-7471
4/18/2011
FIM-AAA
IM 11/2/2006
FIM-AAA
1/1/1965
FIM-AAA
5