Dr. Rhett H. James: An Oral
History Interview
Conducted by Bonnie Lovell
Dallas, Texas
December 21, 2002
Goals for Dallas Oral History Project
Interview: 332
Transcribed by
Krystel R. Manansal
Funded by a Grant from the Summerlee Foundation
Dallas Public Library
2003
Copyright  2003 by Dallas Public Library
INTERVIEW WITH DR. H. RHETT JAMES
December 21, 2002
Bonnie Lovell:
This is Bonnie Lovell interviewing Dr. H. Rhett James for the
Dallas Public Library’s Oral History Project. The interview is
taking place December 21, 2002, at Dr. James’s Dallas
apartment. I am interviewing Dr. James to get his recollections
about Goals for Dallas. I want to start with a little bit of
biographical information about you. When and where were you
born?
Rhett James:
Baltimore, Maryland, in 1928.
Bonnie Lovell:
What month and day?
Rhett James:
December 1.
Bonnie Lovell:
You just had a birthday. What does the “H” stand for?
Rhett James:
I don’t use it. (Chuckle)
Bonnie Lovell:
You don’t even use H. Rhett?
Rhett James:
It’s a name I have gotten rid of.
Bonnie Lovell:
Okay, so you’re just Dr. Rhett James?
Rhett James:
It’s Dr. H. Rhett James. I use the “H” initial.
Bonnie Lovell:
But not the name.
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Interview with James H. Rhett
James:
That’s right.
Lovell:
So you won’t even tell me what the name is?
James:
No, I don’t tell anybody. Social Security knows it; nobody else knows.
Lovell:
Kind of like Harry S. Truman.
James:
No. My mother had eight kids. I think when she got to me, she gave out.
(Chuckle)
Lovell:
(Chuckle) Tell me about your mother and father.
James:
My mother was a Texan. She taught school for a couple of years, then
she met my father and he never let her--she never went back to work-she never taught anymore. She’s a Judkins from out of Houston.
Lovell:
Spell the last name.
James:
J-U-D-K-I-N-S--Judkins--out of Houston. She was a housewife until he
died in 1944; then she was a widow until she died in 1987.
Lovell:
What did your father do?
James:
My father was an educator-minister. He pastored several churches in
several cities. I was born in Baltimore, where he was head of the NRA.
He worked for NRA, which was the [President Franklin D.] Roosevelt
program--National
Recovery Administration--and pastored Leadenhall Baptist
Church there. Then he went to Kansas to Calvary Baptist [Church] in
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Topeka, and from there he went to Nashville. He pastored in Nashville.
Lovell:
Baptist?
James:
Baptist--all Baptist--and worked then at the college ministry at
Tennessee A&I [Agricultural and Industrial] State College.
Lovell:
What was his name?
James:
Samuel Horace James.
Lovell:
And what was your mother’s first name?
James:
Tannie--T-A-N-N-I-E--Etta.
Lovell:
You said you had a lot of brothers and sisters.
James:
Yes, there were five boys and one girl. Two boys are deceased; there are
three of us now.
Lovell:
It sounds like he moved around a lot during your early years.
James:
Yes, in my early years he did. He moved to San Antonio from
Nashville, and I call San Antonio home. We moved to San Antonio in
1940.
Lovell:
Where did you go to school?
James:
My grade school, I started in Topeka, Kansas, at elementary, and then
we went to Nashville. But most of my schooling was done in San
Antonio. I attended Phillis Wheatley High School, and from there I went
on to college.
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Lovell:
Tell me about your college career.
James:
I entered college at Virginia Union University in Richmond, Virginia,
where I received my bachelor’s degree in sociology and English. I went
back to San Antonio and taught for five years.
Lovell:
What did you teach?
James:
I taught elementary school and at San Antonio Junior College, and
while I was in San Antonio I was the first black to enroll at Our Lady of
the Lake College graduate school, where I got my master’s of education.
In 1955, I went back to Virginia and taught at Virginia Union and
worked on a master’s of divinity degree and stayed there three years and
came to Dallas in 1958 and immediately enrolled in Texas Christian
University graduate school of theology in Fort Worth. I was the first
black to get a master of theology degree there.
I came to Dallas to pastor New Hope Baptist Church, and I
became secretary of the fund to move Bishop College to Dallas [from
Marshall, Texas]. A couple of years we worked raising
money, and the college moved here in 1961, and
from 1961 to 1981, I taught at the school.
Lovell:
At Bishop?
James:
At Bishop--as associate professor of social science--and pastored too.
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UTA [University of Texas at Arlington] started a new program in urban
administration. I knew several of the college professors over there--we
had worked together on programs--urban programs--and they were
looking for mature people who had worked in life and wanted to come
in and do some graduate work. So they asked me to come and enroll in
the graduate program for a Ph.D. degree. That was in 1974--1975--and I
enrolled. I received my Ph.D. degree from UTA in 1981. I taught there
in 1980.
Lovell:
What were you teaching?
James:
The first black--I taught history at UTA in 1980. I taught at Austin
College in Sherman, and I have taught at the University of Texas in
Dallas--UTD. I taught race relations, and I taught, as of last year, at
Mountain View College--sociology--here in Dallas.
Lovell:
And all this time, you were also a pastor at the New Hope...?
James:
I retired from the pastorate in 1986.
Lovell:
But you were there almost thirty years?
James:
Yes, I stayed there twenty-nine years. I built a whole institution there-over a million-dollar structure there--on 5002 South Central
Expressway. We were downtown, and then the highway bought us out
and I moved it south where I built that church. Then I went into the
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Interview with James H. Rhett
Dallas public schools in 1981 when Bishop closed. They asked me to
come in and work with what they called the programmatic remedies
program, helping kids who were having difficulty in catching up in their
reading and communication. I went there in 1981.
In 1984, I went into the learning centers program, which was a
new program they had started. In 1987, I went into personnel. I was the
staffing specialist for the public schools. Also, I was a teacher recruiter.
I traveled all over the United States and in other countries to find black
teachers and other teachers to come to Dallas. I did that from 1987 to
1994.
In 1994, I became the assistant principal of
[Arthur] Kramer Elementary School and two other schools and the
Learning Center, and I retired from DISD [Dallas Independent School
District] in 1990.
Lovell:
But you’re back at DISD?
James:
Yes, I went back. I’m back doing some special work, yes.
Lovell:
Is it part-time?
James:
No, I’m full-time. At that time, they were recruiting persons who had
retired to come back and do some special things for the district--because
they were running short of teachers, especially in my field. And so two
years ago--I’m in my second year back, and it’ll probably be my last
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one...but I’ve made it so far. (Chuckle)
Lovell:
When you say “your field,” your field sounds like it’s pretty...
James:
It’s multiple, yes. I have a master’s in psychology and education. I have
a master’s of divinity in psychology and history, and a master’s of
theology in psychology. I did my Ph.D. in four fields: I did it in urban
administration, urban systems, urban affairs, and sociology. So I have;
I’ve been around.
Lovell:
So when you say “your field,” it covers a lot of fields.
James:
Very eclectic. (Chuckle)
Lovell:
Were you in the military?
James:
No. I missed the military. Thanks for that.
Lovell:
You were married and have many children?
James:
I married and have four children--four grown children. My oldest son
works in Arlington; he’s an executive for some company over there--I
forget the name of it. He finished SMU [Southern Methodist
University]. My second son is head of food purchasing for the Dallas
Independent School District.
Lovell:
Oh, he followed in your footsteps.
James:
My daughter is an attorney. She finished law school in Philadelphia-Temple University Law School, where her husband also finished the
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same day. He received his medical degree from Temple. They have two
grown children. One finished college last year, and one is finishing
college this year. He’s going to be going to Hampton Institute-Hampton University--he’ll be graduating in May. She’s an attorney, but
she also went back to school at the University of Chicago, and she’s
finishing up her Ph.D. degree at the University of Chicago.
Lovell:
Lots of educators.
James:
Yes. She wanted to go on and do that, so she did it. They’re very
successful. My youngest son is in television. He used to work as the
program director for NBC New York, program director for Miami,
Boston, where his wife was in Tufts Medical School, and he’s now in
Atlanta, Georgia, with CNN--as one of the directors for CNN.
Lovell:
Impressive. Well, you must be proud of them.
James:
He finished North Texas State [University] in television--TV. He did an
internship at Channel 4--where I was on television for eighteen years,
every other Sunday morning.
Lovell:
Oh, they broadcast your church services?
James:
Yes, I would go down there. It wasn’t the full service; it was just a
religious service that I did.
Lovell:
You went down to the studio and did it?
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James:
Yes. Took the choir, yes--for eighteen years.
Lovell:
So you had to do a repeat of the service that you were going to do on
Sunday?
James:
No, not the whole service. The choir would do two numbers, and I
would give a small, short message. It was taped on a Saturday, and
they’d run it Sunday morning.
Lovell:
For the people that didn’t get to go to church. So you came to Dallas to
pastor the New Hope [Baptist] Church?
James:
I came to Dallas to pastor New Hope and got involved in meeting the
community. I came here in 1958. In 1959, I ran for the school board and
became active in the NAACP [National Association for the
Advancement of Colored People], and I was head of the NAACP
Education Committee. At that time, we had a poll tax. I headed up the
poll-tax drives every year. I had a hundred or so deputies out of my
church out writing up people with poll tax--they had to pay for it--two
dollars. You had to pay to vote back in those days. And so we built up-every year we made sure that there was a black presence at the polls.
Then I got involved in community affairs. I worked with John
Connally’s election. [Senator] Lyndon Johnson--I had met him on
several occasions--I was in Washington one time and he said, “I need
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your help to help get John--help John--that was his buddy, his protégé-get elected as governor.” And so I took over the head of the John
Connally campaign in Dallas in 1961. In the meantime, [John F.]
Kennedy was running for election. I was a member of the Kennedy
executive committee here for Kennedy’s election in 1960, so I’ve been
very active in politics.
In 1964, when [President] Johnson ran for re-election, I was
assistant director of the state re-election committee for re-election of
Johnson. You can see my mementos of Lyndon Johnson there [pointing
to framed documents and photographs on the wall]. In those days, I
visited at his ranch on several occasions. On one occasion he had
African--ambassadors from around the world--visit his ranch, and I was
a part of that. I was a part of the White House reception for the
Emancipation Proclamation [centennial] celebration in 1963.
Lovell:
That’s really exciting. What, in your observation, was Dallas like in the
early 1960s?
James:
Dallas was as segregated as any city you could find. But Dallas has
always, I guess, had a kind of a peaceful acceptance of segregation.
Dallas never had an overt kind of antagonistic relationship. I have
analyzed it and I have given the reason why there was so much passivity
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in Dallas among blacks: Most of them came to Dallas from East Texas,
where they were very docile in their relationships with whites in East
Texas. They came to Dallas and made more money, and they saw no
reason to raise any more Cain because they were making more money
than they ever...they were still poor, but they were making more poor
money than they ever were in their life. (Chuckle) Plus Dallas was very
paternalistic--very paternalistic. I bought a home in 1963 in Shannon
Estates off Mockingbird [Lane] and Inwood [Road]. That portion was
being bought up by whites in University Park for their maids. They
bought their homes for them. In my block, there were three houses that
were....
Lovell:
What street was that on?
James:
7042 Lark Lane. Lark Lane and Oriole Drive is where--my house is still
there now--I did a lot of renovations on it and expanded it until our son
graduated to an integrated high school--and I’ll tell you about that later-but they had integrated the schools in our area and he had to come all
the way back--instead of going to Rusk Junior High, which was right at
the corner, he had to come all the way across town to Booker T.
Washington [High School].
Lovell:
A long bus ride.
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James:
Oh, it was a long bus ride--which I know about because I had it in San
Antonio.
Lovell:
Oh, what year did they bus you in San Antonio?
James:
They didn’t bus me; I had to ride a bus voluntarily to get to school-voluntary bus to get to the black school. Wheatley High School was way
out on the east side. I lived over here on Pine and Houston streets. I had
to go all the way downtown, transfer a bus, and then come back past
Pine Street, and go all the way back out to where Wheatley was--every
morning.
Lovell:
That’s because that was the only black high school?
James:
Yes.
Lovell:
And so, your son--what year would that have been that your son...?
James:
1961. Oh, yes. So, what I did, I took him out of the public school and
put him in Jesuit [College Preparatory School]. At that time, Jesuit was
just building up down on Inwood.
Lovell:
It was closer, too.
James:
Yes, it was closer, too. I ended up moving right behind Jesuit on Mill
Creek. In 1964, I moved to Mill Creek. And so, all my kids went to
private schools. Three boys went to Jesuit and my daughter went to
Ursuline [Academy]. She finished Ursuline with the highest honor in
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her class and was president of her class when she graduated.
Lovell:
It’s interesting that they all went to private schools, but you’ve worked
so long with DISD.
James:
Yes.
Lovell:
But is that any comment on DISD?
James:
It was a comment on DISD because DISD was very segregated. Its
leadership was very segregated and second- to third-class. I mean, I
have visited my kids--one day I went to a class at Booker T.
Washington, and I just stood outside the door, and these teachers were
just standing at the door just running their mouths talking, “Blah blah
blah blah blah,” and they were going around asking, “Do you
understand this?” They were just simple. Dialogue? Didn’t have any of
that. So, anyway, I was very adamant about it--plus the fact that in 1961,
I headed the committee to integrate the first Dallas schools. I went out-my committee went out--and found the kids, got them vaccinated, took
the parents and had orientation sessions with them, and then took them
to the first school--[William B.] Travis [Elementary School] up on
McKinney [Avenue] was one of the schools.
Lovell:
Was this the Committee of Seven?
James:
No, no, no, no. This was the NAACP Education Committee--myself,
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Ann German, and Clarence Laws. We were the main ramrodders of that
operation, and we took them up there and got them in school--got all
seven of those first kids enrolled in 1961, and Dallas was antiintegration of its schools. I never will forget when I came to Dallas after
I had been asked to take over the NAACP Education Committee, so I
got my committee to set up an appointment with Dr. [W. T.] White and
Dr. [Edwin L.] Rippy, who was chairman of the school board. We met
down in Dr. White’s office and he said--I never will forget this--Dr.
White looked at us, and he said, “Well, I know what you’re here for, but
I want you to know that we have good blacks in our schools,” and Dr.
Rippy said, “We treat the blacks just like it’s their schools. They have
their schools they run, and we have ours.” And I said, “So you’re
creating a dialectical situation here.” He said, “That’s exactly what
we’ve got: black education and white education.” And that’s what it
was. Dallas was divided, racewise. They didn’t care what the blacks
were teaching. They didn’t care--just so they kept quiet, peaceful. And
that’s one of the reasons I didn’t put my kids in public schools.
Lovell:
If you were doing it now, do you feel that you would...
James:
All this is history. Dallas schools have much more to be desired because
what has happened-- integration has resegregated, simply because they
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tried busing as a tool to integrate, and black people got...of course, now,
it didn’t work because kids at the end of the bus ride didn’t get an equal
education either. Some of the white teachers were putting the kids out in
hallways. We did a survey of two or three schools on the attitudes of the
white teachers, back in the 1960s, and there was abuse of black kids.
They gave them no incentives to raise their learning standards. It was
all--I call it “permissive paternalism”--and that’s the way the black kids
were treated, mainly, in “integrated” schools. They took the best black
teachers and integrated them into white schools. When the court said
they had to have a mixed faculty, that’s what happened. Very few black
kids were getting equal education. Those who got it got it for the same
reason that those of us who got it in my segregated school times. My
parents saw that I got an equal education, you see--in spite of the
system. I can remember the times at my dinner table--no one could sit at
my table for under an hour because it was going to be discussed what
you were going to do after you finished high school. Current events
were discussed at the table. That’s the way we had it--a roundtable at
our meals. Most of the blacks who went through that day of segregation-I call it “educational tyranny” and “social tyranny”--had to do the same
thing. They
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had to take you by the hand--just like Dr. White said. My parents would
not let me get involved in the subjugation of my thinking second-class.
My parents wouldn’t let me either. I never was second-class. I’ve
always thought I was as good as anybody else, and that’s the way we
were taught.
Lovell:
Good for your parents.
James:
All my kids, all my brothers, got graduate degrees. My oldest brother
finished Howard University, and my other brother is the president of a
university in Virginia, and another brother pastors a big church in
Chicago. We all got good educations. Same in my family--my
generation, my kids--every one of my kids got a good education. I saw
that they got it. Education was a door through which, at that time, was
the only thing you had to unlock.
You’re talking about--in my class I had last year at Mountain
View [College], we were discussing affirmative action. One girl spoke
up. She said, “Dr. James, I don’t understand why I have to pay the price
for what my parents did.” I said, “Young lady, have you ever thought
about the fact that if your father--your grandfather--had syphilis and he
transmitted it down to you--which it’s transmitted by genes, by
inheritance--you’re going pay the price for his wrongdoing? That’s all it
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is here. I’m paying the price for the inadequacies of your forefathers.
You are here because of your unearned opportunities. You haven’t
earned them. You’ve automatically been granted it. You got a grant by
color, and I got a disfranchisement by color.” And that’s what I said,
and she said, “Well, I never thought of it like that.”
My first class--my first day I taught at UTA--at that time--in
1971 is when I started at UTA--the school flag was the Confederate
flag, and the black students were adamant about it and they were
protesting it and demanding that it be taken down and a new flag
erected. I never will
forget my first day--I had a noon class--twelve o’clock--that
had eighty-six students in that class because they had given it all kinds
of publicity--“There’s a black professor coming here and we’re going to
see what he’s got to say about black history,” and all that--how he’s
going to teach black history. I may have involved--given them some
information about what blacks did historically, but to me it’s not “black
history.” The blacks have been left out--but when we talk about it, it’s
“black history.” It’s history; it’s just been left out of the books.
[Tape stopped.]
With Bishop, they started off what they call the exchange-
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professor program, and Dr. [Melvin J.] Banks, who was head of the
history department, interviewed me for the job. He said, “Well, you’re
the man we want to come. Your résumé and everything is just what we
want.” Well, you know, it was not difficult to be impressed when you
rise above the mediocrity back in those days. Anyway, I went in class
and all these kids looked at me, and I said, “Well, what have I walked
into here?” This woman in the rear of the room--I never will forget--tall,
stately redhead: “Dr. James!” I said, “Yes?” “What is it that these
Negroes over here are upset about? What is it that the Confederate flag,
they want it taken down?” I said, “Well, have you ever thought about
the fact that, if you drove down the highway doing 100 miles an hour
looking with your eyes glued to the rearview mirror, what do you think
would happen to you?” “I’d have a wreck.” I said, “That’s exactly what
the flag is--a wreck--the South trying to go forward looking backward.”
The class just went wild. They just applauded--the answer. The class
understood that.
Lovell:
Now, this was your class at UT Arlington?
James:
Yes. But here, this girl--this was just last year--she was sincere, but she
had never thought about the fact that...I said, “Blacks--you have to
understand this from the black point of view. Blacks were born into a
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Interview with James H. Rhett
system, which by law--1896, Plessy v. Ferguson--established Jim Crow
as law of the land. Another case in 1863 stated that the black man had
no rights. The Supreme Court established official segregation and Jim
Crow, which lasted until May 17, 1954 [Brown v. Board of Education of
Topeka]. That’s over sixty years--Jim Crow segregation was a way of
life in this country.”
I said, “Now, I want to see you take one child in your house and
put him in a separate room and say to that child over and over again,
‘You’re not good enough,’ and then take all the draperies down, take all
the furniture out and just give the bare necessities and see what that
child grows up to be and some of his accomplishments.” I said,
“Affirmative action started as a--Republicans really started it--as a
compromise over busing. That’s how it got started. It’s a means of--it’s
just a tool--to try to give an advantage to compensate for the
inadequacies of the past. That’s all it is--equal playing field. How are
we going to be equal and running if I’m starting back here and you way
up here starting? Now, that doesn’t make no sense anymore. No, that
didn’t work--and anybody who thinks like that is thinking institutional
racism because institutional racism says that blacks will never be equal
because they can’t be equal. They aren’t supposed to be, so
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consequently, why worry about them? But we’re not going to let them
get up and...but when you start off over here a little bit ahead-somebody gives them an advantage, it’s racism in reverse.” I said,
“Well, how could it be racism in reverse when you’ve had all these 300
years ahead of me, you didn’t holler you were advantaged? I’ve never
heard a white person say, ‘I’m mad ‘cause I’m advantaged.’”
I was looking at the Donahue show the other night and they
were discussing this--why white men are mad. This man said it right
quick, “Man, what have you got to be mad about? You’ve had all the
advantages of 300 years. The color of your skin gives you advantages
that I’ll never have,” and that’s the truth--will never have--and will
never ever did. I developed a good friend in Dallas over a number of
years--the Cullum brothers, Charles and Robert--Charles Cullum was a
broadminded, Christian person. His brother, Robert, who died several
years ago, was different, but they were all [Dallas] Citizens Council
people. Well, the Citizens Council was not White Citizens Council. It
was just made up of the Dallas power structure. Everybody had to be an
executive of a company of at least 100 employees; there was a
membership requirement. I never will forget when I brought OIC
[Opportunities Industrialization Center] to Dallas in 1966, I had to have
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$100,000 in the bank account for startup expenses. Let me give you a
little background on that: Dallas did not want to admit it had poverty in
the 1960s. Johnson’s program, War on Poverty, was coming all over the
country. Leon Sullivan, who was a very good friend of mine, started the
OIC, Opportunities Industrialization Center. He called me one day and
he said, “Rhett, I need your help.” I said, “What is it?” He said, “I need
you to come up here right away and start training because I think I’m
going to get Dallas a grant.” I said, “When do you want me to come?”
He said, “Can you come up next Monday?” I said, “I can arrange it.” So
I made arrangements and flew up there that Monday and stayed there
two weeks and went through the leadership training program. About six
months later, I got this letter from the War on Poverty program
officially recognizing the grant of $275,000 for the Dallas OIC to get
started. But in order to do this, Dallas had to have a War on Poverty
committee, which it didn’t have and Judge [Lew] Sterrett said we ain’t
going to have because we don’t have no poverty: “Negroes in this town
ain’t poor.” You see how backward the thinking was.
Lovell:
How did you counteract that?
James:
I said, “Yes. They’re not poor because your eyes are poor visioned.”
Lovell:
What did he say to that?
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James:
He said, “Don’t look at me like I’m crazy.” I said, “You see what you
want to see, and you don’t see poor blacks. The poor blacks that are
poor don’t come to you begging with cups. They get out and work two
or three jobs and work at your homes and clean up your houses in
Highland Park and get peanuts for salary. You pay them peanut wages-poor wages.”
Tape I, Side B.
Lovell:
Okay, you were saying “peanut wages.”
James:
Yes, I said, “No, you don’t have it because you don’t want to have it.
You don’t want to do anything in this”--and this was rabid segregation
Dallas was in. Dallas was rabid--I mean, rabid. They let you know what
they thought about you; they didn’t try to hide it.
Lovell:
In what way? Do you have examples?
James:
Yes, they had two or three blacks who went around here as their Uncle
Tom leaders.
Lovell:
Like who?
James:
E. C. Estell and I. B. Loud and the people at the [Dallas] Black
Chamber [of Commerce], and all those kind of people, had been doing it
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for years--doing their bidding. Well, then I came to town--I was a
radical. They were going to run me out of town. Anyway...so I called
Bob Cullum--he and I had become good friends because we had been
doing some things together. He was the type of person who liked to hear
the other side. You see, most whites at that time didn’t want to hear but
one side because they knew what side--it’s just like what’s happening
now in the Senate in Washington. The Republican Party knows it’s
wrong, but they don’t want to admit they’ve got race problems because
if they do, that means they’ve got to open up their doors and do the right
thing. That’s all that is. Like some had to get on television and say, “I’m
for affirmative action,” and the whole Republican Party came down on
his head: “Bang.” (Chuckle) Anyway, and so I said, “Well, I’m going to
handle this.” I called Bob Cullum. I said, “I need to talk to you right
away. Can I have an appointment about one o’clock tomorrow?” He
said, “Yes, I’ll be waiting for you.” I went...at that time they [Tom
Thumb] were out Inwood, down there by Love Field. I went up there to
see him. He said, “Rhett, what’s the problem? What’s the problem?” I
said, “Well, Dallas has got some problems that it doesn’t have to have.”
He says, “Like what?” I said, “Well, the War on Poverty is part of
Lyndon Johnson’s War on Poverty program--wants to come to Dallas
- 23 -
Interview with James H. Rhett
with the OIC, and your Judge Sterrett, who thinks he owns this town
and y’all put him up here to do your bidding, says he ain’t going to have
none.” He says, “What do you want me to do?” I said, “I want him to
call the [Dallas County] Commissioners Court together and authorize an
official status of the War on Poverty to receive funds from
Washington.” He says, “I’ll take care of it.” It was taken care of the next
day. Sterrett calls me, “Well, Rhett, you got what you wanted.” I said, “I
got what I wanted? It wasn’t for me. This was for your community.” So
Bob took care of it. On another occasion, I was involved--I had brought
Roy Wilkins down--I brought him about four times when I was in there-because I was in and out of the NAACP--I went from committee
chairman to branch president. We had multiple branches--I was a
multiple branch chairman--and then back to the John F. Kennedy
Branch. See, I was in and out for fifteen years. So Bob calls me. He
says, “Rhett, do you think you can get us a private hearing with Roy?” I
said, “When do you want to have a hearing?” He was going to speak
that night. He says, “Yes. Can we meet him in the Republic Bank board
room?” I said, “I think I can arrange that.” I got up there a little early.
Mr.--I forget his name--the chairman of the board of the Republic Bank-said, “Rhett, I’m so glad to meet you. I’ve heard so much about you.” I
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Interview with James H. Rhett
said, “I’ve heard a lot about you, too.” He said, “You know, it’s just
wonderful to see you doing some of the things you’re doing.” I said,
“Look here. Let me tell you something. If my skin was white as yours, I
would be where you are. So I’m not too glad to be where I am.”
Lovell:
And what did he say?
James:
He didn’t say anything. He just stared and opened his mouth. I said,
“My skin holds me back because we’re in a culture that condemns by
skin rather than credits by ability.” But what I’m saying, all these are
things that I have run into. I could tell you stories from now to eternity
on the incidents I’d get. I used to get a telephone call every night from
that old crazy woman--what is that old woman’s name?--that Ku Klux
Klan that used to come to the school board?
Lovell:
Dixie Leber?
James:
Yes, Dixie’s her name: “I’m going to run you out of town.” I said,
“Well, come on over here and run me, but I want you to know my
phone’s tapped by the FBI, so they’ll run you, too.” (Chuckle)
Lovell:
But she kept calling?
James:
Oh, all the time.
Lovell:
Explain to me one thing about the John F. Kennedy Branch of the
NAACP. How were the branches divided?
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Interview with James H. Rhett
James:
They tried to be by communities. But they were also ended up being
divided by people who wanted to be associated with certain people
doing certain things. Some were more conservative than others.
Lovell:
And what was the John F. Kennedy...?
James:
I had the wildest branch. (Chuckle) We just didn’t see any blocks to do
something. We weren’t radicals. We were radicals to those--you know,
radicalism is always greased by the base. If you’re down here at zero,
one is radical, (chuckle) you know. So I always say, “That’s a relative
term y’all are using.” (Chuckle)
Lovell:
How did the Kennedy assassination affect Dallas?
James:
Oh, let me tell you about that. I was in Los Angeles in 1962. Kennedy
was killed in 1963, wasn’t he?
Lovell:
1963.
James:
Yes, okay. I was in Los Angeles in August of 1962 at the Ambassador
Hotel as [Vice President] Lyndon Johnson’s personal representative to-you know, he was head of the Equal Employment Opportunity
Commission--not the commission, the program. And so we all went-there were about a thousand folk out there from all over the country.
The message was, certainly then around...this was...that Lyndon was not
going to be on the ticket next year, and several of us would do these
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Interview with James H. Rhett
little midnight snack sessions--we would go out and get cheese and
crabs and compare them (chuckle) and we would talk these problems
through. But anyway, came to Dallas, and I was on the Welcome
Committee and they put a--one thing had happened--Erik Jonsson was
the shadow boss at that time. He was not Mayor, but he became Mayor
right after the assassination.
Lovell:
Okay, he was the shadow...
James:
When I say shadow, I mean, looked the father type. The people--the
Cullums and John Stemmons and those people--looked up to him
because he was such a successful man. He was a giant, and he had
gotten involved in the Citizens Council--and thank God he did because
he came at the time when his services and his attitudes were very much
important. Anyway, so he came to town, and he--Kennedy was coming
to Dallas. We were all prepared--well prepared--for that--looked
forward to that because it was determined that there would be no
incidents. And Dallas was--Dallas was most gracious.
Lovell:
Where were you when you heard about it?
James:
I was at the Apparel Mart [Trade Mart] luncheon waiting on him. We
had gone, left the airport, we went to the Apparel Mart and were sitting
up there waiting on his caravan. And, lord, [Sam] Bloom came up with
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Interview with James H. Rhett
that face and said, “We just heard over the air that the man has been
assassinated.” You talking about pandemonium. There wasn’t physical
pandemonium but mental pandemonium. People got up all kinds of
ways distraught. Erik Jonsson got up to the microphone and said,
“Ladies and gentlemen, this is a time for us to maintain quietness and
calmness, and we’ll go through this crisis together and we know that
you’ll all go to church Sunday and pray.” And that’s what happened.
We went to church the next day--the church was packed--and the
message came during the service that [Lee Harvey] Oswald was shot.
So we knew then it was a lot of mess, and it was more than one bullet
that did it.
Lovell:
What was your sermon that day?
James:
I don’t even remember; I really don’t. Now, that’s the honest truth. I
don’t remember.
Lovell:
Probably it was such a shocking time that you just were doing the best
you could to get through it.
James:
Yes, it probably was. It was probably more of a redress of thoughts and
accumulations of messages of hope and keeping the faith that people
needed to hear because this country was in a mess.
Lovell:
Did the assassination of Kennedy affect the African-American
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Interview with James H. Rhett
community more...?
James:
Oh, definitely. Just like [Franklin D.] Roosevelt. Yes, because Kennedy-and we had gone through all these times up to Kennedy and Kennedy
represented a new face, a new lift, a young...I’ve got pictures of
Kennedy somewhere around here.
Lovell:
When we finish, I want to look at all your pictures.
James:
Yes, but I think they’re in my car. I’ve got a picture with myself and
Kennedy on the stage at the auditorium when he was here. And Martin
Luther King. Oh, I forgot to tell you something about Martin Luther
King. At the same time in 1961--this is when I was really getting ready
to be run out of town. I had brought Martin Luther King to town for
voter registration.
Lovell:
And what happened?
James:
When the word got out, I got a call from E. C. Estell and I. B. Loud,
who were the downtown representatives, that I had better call that off. I
said, “Call what off?” “This meeting.” I said, “Are you ordering me to
call off the meeting?” “Yes, we’re telling you: You’ve got to call that
meeting off.” I said, “Well, I tell you. You go back and tell those who
told you”--because we all knew who called it off--“I’m not calling off
anything.”
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Interview with James H. Rhett
Lovell:
What happened?
James:
Dr. King came to town, peaceful. The auditorium
was
packed.
Lovell:
What auditorium was it?
James:
At the State Fair--the State Fair Auditorium. Packed, peaceful. Few of
the blacks showed up that we had invited. Just to make sure, we were
going to let the town know who they were--and they didn’t show up.
Loud nor Estell showed up.
Lovell:
They did show up?
James:
They didn’t show up. The boy who was pastor of Peoples Church--what
was the other boy’s name?
Lovell:
Is that [Rev.] Wright?
James:
S. M. Wright showed up because Wright was just a young protégé to
Estell at that time. Nobody thought Estell would be leaving so quickly,
and Wright would be ascending to Estell’s throne. (Chuckle) Anyway,
so we had that and it went off beautiful.
Lovell:
Were any whites in the audience?
James:
Oh, yes. Dallas was a peculiar town. I remember more integration going
on in Dallas before integration was supposed to take place than there is
now. I have been to homes in this town--in Highland Park and
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Interview with James H. Rhett
University Park--just book clubs. Or we would have a group that would
meet and have picnics together. Oh, we did a lot of things in this town
and nobody said anything about it, wouldn’t do anything about it. The
guy who owned the theaters here--I can’t think of his name.
Lovell:
Was it Hoblitzelle?
James:
Karl Hoblitzelle had this big mansion on Armstrong Circle. Every year,
every Christmas season, he would let his servants use the house for a
party. He’d tell his secretary to call up all the neighbors. “Now, don’t
get upset. There’ll be somebody parking in your driveway tonight
because Mary and John are going to have a party.” I mean, they did it
every year. He bought several houses for his servants. The woman right
across the street from me was a Hoblitzelle maid. She was a special
maid who’d go up to his house up in Massachusetts. She was in charge
of that house. She’d go up in February, getting the house straight for
May, and stay there through December. Her house was sitting here with
nobody in it. That’s the kind of relationship they had. They took care of
“their people,” as you would say, paternalistically. They took care of
them. But that’s the attitude they had. Oh, yes, very calm, very calm,
very calm, no incidents. I have not had an incident on me since I’ve
been here, and I remember bomb threats. No, that kind of stuff--Dallas
- 31 -
Interview with James H. Rhett
wasn’t going to do that. Because, see, what happened, there was a
dichotomous thing going on. Underneath, the whites were getting the
message out there: We’re not going to stand no white rascals in this
town. So don’t come trying to start no stuff, because I’d lead a march
downtown, 1961, 1962, before we integrated.
Lovell:
Was this at H. L. Green [department store]?
James:
H. L. Green--a whole year--I picketed Green’s with twenty-five or thirty
people a day down there around the corner from Green’s. And I’d lead
Sunday marches right down Main Street all the way from Good Street
[Baptist] Church all the way downtown. Nobody cared anything about
it. Police were there escorting us.
Lovell:
Did the newspapers cover it?
James:
Oh, yes, they covered it.
Lovell:
And everybody--it was okay?
James:
Yes.
Lovell:
But they didn’t integrate right away?
James:
No. Dallas was going to have a peaceful, stair-step integration. In other
words, you’re going to do it twelve years, one step at time. And by the
time they got to twelve years, you’re so worn out, you don’t want
integration. (Chuckle)
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Interview with James H. Rhett
Lovell:
But what about the department stores?
James:
Oh, the department stores. Now, department stores were...
Lovell:
H. L. Green?
James:
H. L. Green...We had been meeting with the Biracial Committee--I was
on there, too. We would meet; we would meet by ourselves and take up
our problems, and then we’d meet in the committee and lay the
problems on the table. And much progress was carried on that way
because they had never had a voice directed to them, and we had to
recognize that they were the power group because this town was white-you couldn’t buck ‘em. The poor whites were worse than we were. They
were in slavery, too. I don’t think they cared as much as them--they
cared less--because it’s just like during the days of slavery. The white
plantation owners who were out to get the good land took all the poor
whites off the land and sent them to the hills to become hillbillies and
they subsisted on goats’ milk. So if you went up to West Virginia, you’d
see the remnants of that--all those people who went up the Appalachian
Trail--all the remnants of the poor whites who came off the land in the
South. But what they did though, they taught them to hate Negroes
because they said we are the cause of your being off the land. Well,
there was abolition and there wasn’t. And the poor whites didn’t have
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Interview with James H. Rhett
enough sense but to believe it. They had to have somebody to hate, so
they hated us. But poor whites everywhere are woke up now. They
know that they were being mistreated and abused, too, and it wasn’t
long before they caught on to what was happening to them. So we had a
good alliance between the working-class whites in this town and the
blacks. Good relationship, good relationship. We’d have meetings;
they’d show up. Mexicans would show up. At that time, they were
“Mexicans.”
Lovell:
Not Hispanics or Latinos?
James:
There’s no such thing as “Hispanic.” Another thing that fooled them-that Dallas was of their culture. Hispanic is not a race.
Lovell:
How did you first hear about Goals for Dallas? Do you remember?
James:
Very soon after the assassination, Erik Jonsson ran for Mayor and was
elected--unanimously elected. One of the first things he did was have
one of the Goals for Dallas. I think he had probably been a member--a
part of a “Goals for somewhere else” because the organizing staff was
well trained. So they had to go somewhere to get the training to
organize for Dallas. I think about six or seven--five or six--blacks--I
don’t think there are any blacks living now who were on that Goals in
there. Do you know who they are?
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Interview with James H. Rhett
Lovell:
[The Rev.] Zan Holmes was there.
James:
I don’t even remember seeing Zan Holmes there.
Lovell:
He was there.
James:
I don’t remember seeing Zan at the Goals.
You see, there were some blacks who came at the last session, which
was a report session, and they didn’t stay there. They were not there the
whole time at the hotel.
Lovell:
At Salado?
James:
I heard Zan was there; I never saw him. Who else?
Lovell:
As far as I know, he’s the only one of the blacks on the...still living.
Well, here, I’ve got the list [of Salado conferees]. You and Zan Holmes
are the only...
James:
Only two living?
Lovell:
Of the African Americans--as far as I know.
James:
I know [A.] Maceo Smith is dead, and Juanita Craft is dead.
Lovell:
[Reading from list.] S. M. Wright. [Dr.] Emmett Conrad.
James:
Yes, they have both passed.
Lovell:
I don’t know about [Mrs.] Marion Dillard. Is she still alive?
James:
She’s dead.
Lovell:
Okay. So I’ve just got you and Zan Holmes. That’s all I know. Here’s
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Interview with James H. Rhett
the Salado list.
James:
Yes [studying it].
Lovell:
How did you become involved in Goals for Dallas?
James:
I got a call from Robert Cullum and he told me they needed my help and
that whatever I could contribute to them that he would like for me to do
that because they want this thing established with some legitimacy. That
was his concern, and so I agreed. I attended several sessions in Dallas
before we went to Salado and from there we went to Salado.
Lovell:
Do you remember anything about the speakers that you--I think they
were trying to prepare you for Salado, so they were having speakers
about the different things they were going to talk about. Do you
remember...?
James:
You know what it was, don’t you?
Lovell:
Well, no.
James:
They didn’t have to prepare me. I think they were concerned about
attitudes of the fringe right, whom they thought would give them some
trouble on integration. But, other than that, I don’t think--they had no
fear from us about speakers. I don’t know of any session that I ever
heard of to prepare for speakers.
Lovell:
No, I mean, that the speakers were to talk about the kinds of things that
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Interview with James H. Rhett
you were going to talk about at Salado.
James:
Oh, there were. There were several sessions in preparation for Salado,
yes.
Lovell:
Why did you accept the invitation to go there?
James:
Because I saw it as a furthering of the community support, a broadening
of the transitions of this town. Dallas was at an apex and anything that
was going to give a road to travel, to me, I welcomed.
Lovell:
What were the circumstances of your first meeting with Erik Jonsson?
Do you remember that? Or, if not your first meeting, what were your
impressions of Erik Jonsson?
James:
I had met him earlier. I had met Erik Jonsson when I was working to
raise money for Bishop College. You know, at that time, there was a
technical institute out there he headed. UTD was...
Lovell:
Oh, okay. It was the Graduate Research Center [of the Southwest]?
James:
The Graduate Center--and then was attached to that, it was doing
research for TI [Texas Instruments]. TI put a lot of money into this; this
was a TI project. TI started the University of [Texas at] Dallas. He and-what’s the other
man’s name?
Lovell:
[Eugene] McDermott?
James:
McDermott. And the other man?
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Interview with James H. Rhett
Lovell:
[Pat] Haggerty?
James:
Pat Haggerty. And--he and his wife—they gave a lot of money--oh,
what is his name? Little, short fellow. Anyway...
Lovell:
[Cecil H.] Green.
James:
Green. All those--actually, I had met through those people.
Lovell:
And what was your impression of Mayor Jonsson or Mr. Jonsson?
James:
He impressed me because I saw in Erik Jonsson hope, because Dallas
needed some hope, just broadening ideas. TI came to Dallas and brought
all these “northerners” down here, and they set up a wall against them.
They were isolated down here for a while, and here they were gradually
weaving themselves into the patterns of community structure. I saw this
as a necessity and anything I could do to help further the cause of doing
that, I was in favor of.
Lovell:
What do you remember about the Salado conference?
James:
Well, I knew what to expect at Salado.
Lovell:
And what was that?
James:
One, I was going to hear a lot of dialogue on personal ambitions for
Dallas, like the [John] Stemmons project of the Trinity River
playground. Or like keeping the Dallas Council of Churches
community-based, but they want to run it like they ran it, which was by
- 38 -
Interview with James H. Rhett
the Citizens Council. In other words, I saw Goals for Dallas as an
extended arm of keeping control.
Lovell:
In other words, you didn’t feel like they were looking at goals for the
whole city but to further their own aims?
James:
Let me tell you. I’m not going to castigate my good friends who are
dead. John Stemmons--I loved him dearly. We used to get together and
we had some good times. Bob Cullum--I loved him dearly. I saw them
as just good white boys who themselves came up in a system of
paternalism. Somebody took them by the arm and carried them on-Stemmons’s father. The Cullum boys didn’t have anybody; their daddy
was a--I don’t now if their daddy was a grocer or not. But the Cullum
boys were just outright good people. And I saw them in a niche
of their own dysfunctionalism, in terms of race. Didn’t know what to do.
We’re going to leave out the Jewish man...
Lovell:
Marcus--Stanley Marcus?
James:
No, it’s not Marcus.
Lovell:
[Rabbi] Levi Olan?
James:
Sam Bloom. He and I go back there. Levi Olan came to my Martin
Luther King address; he took pictures with me and Martin Luther. I’ve
got a picture of it.
- 39 -
Interview with James H. Rhett
Lovell:
Is he the one you were thinking of when you said...
James:
No. Julius Schepps. Yes, Julius Schepps--he was a Jew boy. He had to
do the right thing, too, to stay in. You know what I mean. They all
played games with each other. The Cullums were doing business with
the Dallas public schools. All the food was bought by the Cullum
Company. So they had no problem getting W. T. White to do what they
wanted done, and they let W. T. White do what he wanted to do. So W.
T. White ran a tight racist system, and they didn’t care how racist he
was because W. T. White was also doing what
they wanted him to
do. It was a kind of an exchange--rub my back, I’ll rub yours.
Lovell:
So when Erik Jonsson said that his goal was to be more inclusive...
James:
Inclusive. It had to be...because I felt this way: Being a sociologist who
understands social dynamics--once you open up the lid, you can’t stop
it, and those who were not literate at that point got caught. Just like I
said--I always maintain this when I teach race relations--I said the
biggest mistake the white southerners made about slavery was their
house servants, because having house servants, he gave automatic
advantages to a different set of blacks, and they ate before he ate. They
learned to taste pheasant and country ham and they got that. They
sipped their juleps too. They adjusted to their station in life too. They...
- 40 -
Interview with James H. Rhett
[Tape stopped.]
Consequently, the system ended up with its own demise structure
because once you expose the disadvantaged person to another level of
living, you also set the stage to do those who were denying them their
own demise. So I knew this;
history tells this. Serfdom didn’t automatically fall under
European demise automatically. Serfdom fell because too many of the
serfs became nobles; they won wars that elevated them to a status that
was out of serfdom. So my point is this: If they were going to have
inclusiveness--and I tell you someone was a pusher; there’s a secret
partner in here. Northerners were coming into Dallas; they were upset
because they were pushed out of the power structure.
Lovell:
In Dallas?
James:
Oh, people--the TI-type folk. They were not acceptable here.
Moneywise, they were, but they were just as foreign as anybody else
was. But what happened? I have this theory: Ralph McGill wrote a
book, The South and the Southerners, and he said the only difference
between the southern liberal and the southern conservative is that the
southern liberal would hang a nigger on a lower limb. Well, what
happened was this: Many of those same whites who moved to Dallas
- 41 -
Interview with James H. Rhett
and Richardson--you know, Richardson was all originally TI--that’s
why they can’t expand--because they didn’t buy up the land around-they didn’t have the money for it. So there was a real push to go north,
whereas Plano was expanding and bought up land. Anyway, when all
these companies started moving into Dallas, you had a group of
executives that were pushed to the sideline, and Erik was smart enough
to know that because he was in the group, too. They didn’t willingly
accept him; they had to accept him--because he was a man that had
suddenly become head of the biggest corporation in this part of the
country, and you better listen to him because he hired thousands and
thousands of workers. He won his respect; they didn’t automatically
give it to him. So there was a kind of ambivalence there between
accepting Erik--I never will forget--when Erik ran his second term,
Luther Holcomb, who was the chairman--or president--of the Dallas
Council of Churches--he and I are very good friends--asked me to give a
reception at my house on Lark Lane for Erik Jonsson’s wife, Margaret,
and invite black women, which I did. I sent out 400 invitations, and 450
showed up. Mrs. Jonsson was there, and Mrs. Cullum was there. About
eight or nine of the top businesspeople’s wives came and joined the
receiving line. The point I’m making is: it was an exclusive-inclusive
- 42 -
Interview with James H. Rhett
push. So the Goals for Dallas, so far as I saw it, was an opener that they
would not be able to close once it got open. That’s my point. See, I
don’t care what they thought about it, or how much they tried to control
it originally, they let them out the barn.
Lovell:
Did you feel any discomfort about going to Salado, which was a small
southern town?
James:
No, that was not a problem with me. Well, first of all, the motel
[Stagecoach Inn] was on the highway.
Tape II, Side A.
Lovell:
You were talking about...
James:
Social dynamics in community organization and development.
Communities own rings, and every ring ends up with another set of
rings. So you have the ring of inclusiveness, and then that ring creates a
ring of exclusiveness, and that ring expands and becomes a ring of
inclusiveness, and that ring sets off another ring of exclusiveness, so
you have a kind of ongoing exclusive-inclusive grouping, and that’s
represented in any community organization. It happens like that. I knew
that Dallas was headed to amend its ways, and I don’t say that
negatively; I say it positively. Amending its ways to me is saying that
- 43 -
Interview with James H. Rhett
I’m going to live better than I’ve ever lived before. So that’s the
progress, and I’m going to live better because I’m going to help
everybody else live better. [Tape fades away briefly.] Many leaders
thought North Dallas versus South Dallas and Oak Cliff citizens, as
superior and inferior. And that’s how I saw the Goals. I just saw the
Goals as another program to expand what Dallas ought to be and what
the brains of Dallas could make it be, once they determined it, because
the dynamites of this town could have anything they wanted if they
wanted it. Just say the word. They had the power. They represented
every phase of community operations. The United Way--I was on the
board for eleven years, on the budget committee of that for nine. I’d
meet with the United Way and I could just see the expansiveness. They
would grab everybody who would come to town then--all the new
presidents of companies, put them on the board of the United Way right
away, put them on this board, put them on that board, let them feel that
they are part of the operations of this city.
Lovell:
And this was a change that was coming about?
James:
That was a change that coming about. It wasn’t before: It was all “my,
my, my, my, my, my.”
Lovell:
The leaders thought they were being inclusive in the people they
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Interview with James H. Rhett
invited. Were they? Who might they have included that they didn’t
include?
James:
Oh, I would think they would probably have had more labor there. More
Mexican Americans. The Jewish people were not, at that point, really in
a problem because the Jews in Dallas have always fared well. They had
their synagogues and their sections of town and nobody ever bothered
them, and they had their businesses. Nobody was more blessed in this
town, businesswise, than Stanley Marcus. The white women adored him
and gave him all their millions; they said, “Just dress me and make me
look good.” (Chuckle)
Lovell:
And I’m going back to ask this again, just in case it got cut off. Salado
was a small, southern town. Did you feel any discomfort about going to
a conference there?
James:
None at all. Because I had been through Salado coming from San
Antonio. My mother was living in San Antonio, so we’d drive right on
through Salado all the time. I knew about Salado, and I’d see the motel
right on the highway. It was just another place to me.
Lovell:
Who was your roommate at Salado?
James:
Didn’t have one.
Lovell:
For many, if not most, of the white male Dallas power structure, Salado
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Interview with James H. Rhett
may have been the first time that they interacted with African
Americans...
James:
Absolutely right.
Lovell:
...on an equal footing.
James:
Absolutely right. And they were sort of dubious there. There was a lot
of overreceptivity, and there was some hesitancy. I saw it; it was open.
The rednecks who wanted to be rednecks, they stayed rednecks. The
whites who were there who were borderline--and their bosses and their
friends had told them, “You’ve got to open up and not be from
Mississippi tonight. Don’t embarrass us”--they toed the line. That was a
part of the control, and thanks for the control. You see, that’s why I’m
not highly critical of Dallas now, when I look back on it, because I
know the best way to bring about social change is by social controls.
Not revolution. We’re getting ready to send up a spark that’s going to
terminate everything over there; everything is on edge, and it’s going to
burn it all up, if we don’t watch it. There are no controls. Goals for
Dallas was controlled by the Citizens Council. Whether you want to
agree with them or not, it was controlled. They’re the ones who said,
“We’re going to set a certain date and open up everything.” They got
Sam Bloom and paid him millions of dollars to operate--and I worked
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Interview with James H. Rhett
with Sam in a lot of his programs--to make sure the message got out to
the community to keep things and lay it on, keep things peaceful until
we get this thing open. The date came around in September. Restaurants
were opened, there was not an incident; schools were opened, not an
incident; buses were, not an incident. How could that be, if there wasn’t
control? Months of planning went into it.
Lovell:
So are you saying control was a good thing, after all?
James:
I’m saying that, at that point, controls were good. Yes.
Lovell:
Do you remember which of the discussion groups you were in? You’ve
got the list over there. The leaders were--where were the leaders?
Discussion leaders--Donald Cowan...
James:
I was in his group, I know. He and his wife.
Lovell:
They were both in that same group?
James:
Yes.
Lovell:
Do you remember anything about the discussions?
James:
I don’t remember that much.
Lovell:
Do you remember if the subject of race ever came up in any of the
discussions at that time, or was it a subject that it was avoided?
James:
I think it was avoided. I don’t think they wanted this to be a race
relations meeting. I think they wanted to have this as a community--how
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Interview with James H. Rhett
do you want to put it?--community solidarity meeting.
Lovell:
Do you remember anything about any of the participants in particular?
James:
There were no really--there were some stringent points of view. But,
you see, they were smart enough to make the decision based upon
consensus, which means your point of view is acceptable, too. And they
had enough people assigned to every group, and at the general sessions,
the vote was consensus. It was controlled.
Lovell:
Was it a lot of work? There was a lot of reading that they expected you
to do ahead of time.
James:
Yes, they gave us some of the readings to take with us--to bring there.
Lovell:
Homework?
James:
Yes.
Lovell:
Did you take any friendships or working relationships away from
Salado?
James:
Oh yes, a lot of people that I had known or met on a casual basis, I got a
chance to sit down and hold a lengthy conversation with and kind of feel
them out for where they were.
Lovell:
Who were some of those people?
James:
I don’t even remember. That is the God’s truth.
Lovell:
That was a long time ago.
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Interview with James H. Rhett
James:
1960s...forty years.
Lovell:
1966.
James:
Was it 1966?
Lovell:
Yes, that this meeting was, yes.
James:
See, my goodness, that’s ancient history.
Lovell:
Mrs. Juanita Craft was often quoted as saying that the Salado
conference was the first time she felt like a full American. Did you feel
that way?
James:
I think she overblew that word.
Lovell:
It’s been suggested that perhaps Goals for Dallas used that remark--they
always put it in all their advertising and public relations pieces.
James:
She was the Aunt Tom of Dallas. I went to a meeting at the Black
History...this girl had done a history on Juanita Craft. I got up and asked
the question, “Which Juanita Craft did you do this on? Because the
Juanita Craft I knew didn’t do all the things you said she did.” Juanita
Craft was out for Juanita Craft and did very few things that she didn’t
gain from--including getting money for kids every year to go to the
[NAACP] national meeting.
Lovell:
Oh, and then what happened?
James:
She would go on her annual vacation--paid for by the white folks of
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Interview with James H. Rhett
Dallas.
Lovell:
Interesting.
James:
Very interesting. They needed Juanita Craft. And she knew that and she
used them. See, she was an opportunist. She was an opportunist, down
to her death. When they put her on the City Council, they knew she was
not City Council material, but they just wanted her as a block--just used
as a blocker. She blocked black people.
Lovell:
When you were all at Salado, did they expect the blacks they invited to
stick together or did they...?
James:
I don’t think they thought we would divide among ourselves. There
were two opposing groups. It would be myself and A. Maceo Smith.
Maceo Smith who was a representative for the downtown people. He
wanted to go both ways. Maceo was basically a civil rights advocate.
He’d come in as an arsonist, and then he’d come back as a fireman.
Lovell:
Interesting.
James:
Isn’t that interesting?
Lovell:
Yes.
James:
He’d set the fire, turn the blaze on, create the fire extinguishing--fire
material, then come back and, “Oh, my goodness, we’ve got to do
something here.” I was his pastor for eighteen years. I know what I’m
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Interview with James H. Rhett
talking about. He made everything political.
Lovell:
That very same summer of 1966, you went to that NAACP convention
in Los Angeles and you toured Watts and the [Dallas] Times-Herald
quoted you as saying that the conditions in Watts existed in every major
metropolitan community in the nation.
James:
They did.
Lovell:
I assume you were including Dallas in that?
James:
That’s right. Dallas had Watts but it didn’t burn. And people wanted to
know why didn’t Dallas burn.
Lovell:
I did want to know that.
James:
White leaders helped make the difference. I told you because most
Dallas people came from East Texas, and they were not the overt
expressionist type. They were looking for advantages and once they got
an advantage they’d had never had, they became pacified. They were
passive and non-violent.
Lovell:
Did you feel that Goals for Dallas could have some kind of impact on
the poverty in Dallas or the conditions in Dallas that were...
James:
These were important factors--the community pulled together. I would
say this: that I think Goals for Dallas was a part of the thinking of Bob
Cullum when he called on Lew Sterrett and told him to get the War on
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Interview with James H. Rhett
Poverty down here right away. I think it opened up--I think it brought
about a wider vision of their responsibilities as community leaders. Not
just to say what we’re going to have or what we’re not going to have,
but let’s see what we can have. So I think it opened up the doors for
community possibilities and assets.
Lovell:
Were you involved in the neighborhood meetings in the fall of 1966
after Salado?
James:
Most of them.
Lovell:
Do you remember which ones?
James:
I remember the ones I attended, really.
Lovell:
Zan Holmes said that in the black community there’s no separation
between social action and the evangelical.
James:
We emphasized community togetherness throughout Dallas. I don’t
know what he means by that other than one for one and one for all.
Lovell:
As pastor at New Hope Baptist Church, did you share information about
Goals for Dallas with your congregation?
James:
Yes. We talked about it at every opportunity.
Lovell:
Did any members of your congregation become involved in Goals for
Dallas because of you?
James:
Oh, no. Marion Dillard was in my church. Maceo Smith was in my
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Interview with James H. Rhett
church, so that was three of us.
Lovell:
But it seems like they were asked to go to Salado, so they were picked.
James:
Well, she was head of the YWCA [Maria Morgan Branch], and so she
was naturally capable. She worked with the women’s groups of
metropolitan Dallas, and she was an intelligent lady, but she was not
what you’d call--she was not a Juanita Craft.
Lovell:
In both the first and the second round of Goals for Dallas, you were on
the Public Safety Task Force.
James:
Yes, I remember that.
Lovell:
Did you choose that subject or did they assign it?
James:
I chose public safety.
Lovell:
Why did you pick public safety?
James:
Because I saw busing at that time as a vehicle. That was that 1966...?
Lovell:
Two different times. One was about 1968 to 1969, and the next time
was in 1976. Both times you were on the Public Safety Task Force.
James:
I don’t really remember.
Lovell:
Here’s the names--this is the first go-round [pointing to names on list].
Alex Bickley was the chairman.
James:
Alex Bickley and I became very good friends.
Lovell:
Do you remember anything about him on the committee?
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Interview with James H. Rhett
James:
Well, see, public safety--at that time, you had under public safety--
Lovell:
Here’s what you talked about as the general goal--your committee.
James:
Public Safety committee.
Lovell:
Yes. I didn’t copy all of it; I just copied the general part of it.
James:
[Reading from photocopy.] Oh, here it is right here: “Appreciation for
law and order a priority as essential instrumentalities.” I don’t really
know what we did that was really outstanding under law and order. I
really don’t. One of the publications...
Lovell:
The busing thing--you mentioned that you were interested in that.
James:
Busing was over then. It had been outlawed by the Supreme Court.
Lovell:
I wondered how public safety affected race relations in Dallas.
James:
Well, there was a problem with the police department in black
neighborhoods.
Lovell:
Possibly that could’ve helped that.
James:
Yes, I’m sure that’s part of that.
Lovell:
The second [Public Safety Task Force] committee was in 1977 with
Forrest Smith as the chairman, and again, the same subject, but I don’t
know--I find that, for lots of the people that I interview, the committees
sort of blend together in their mind over time because they don’t really
stand out.
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Interview with James H. Rhett
James:
We all did our thing.
Lovell:
You probably just had meetings?
James:
Yes. And went over material. I think by that time so much had happened
to kind of push--I kind of saw the efforts of other meetings--they’re
trying to hang on to an idea for which its time had passed.
Lovell:
Meaning...?
James:
Meaning that to keep having meetings on Goals for Dallas was not
required. We should’ve brought it down to a more practical need of
Dallas. What are the Dallas problems? And then divide it up in
groupings. I think the reason they didn’t do it because they didn’t want
to face the Dallas problems. I think there was an aversion to it.
Lovell:
I have some criticism from different people that I want you to comment
on. This sort of relates to what you just said. In 1967, a Brandeis
University professor found that Goals for Dallas didn’t pay enough
attention to the plight of the poor. Was he right?
James:
Yes, he was right. He certainly was right. (Chuckle)
Lovell:
And then in 1976, nine years later, a Goals for Dallas Task Force found
that “lack of recognition and representation of non-establishment
groups” was a major issue facing Dallas, and also that “the closed circle
of those making decisions is intimidating to outsiders.” Comments on
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Interview with James H. Rhett
that?
James:
Yes, I do. I think that’s right. You still had two things going on
simultaneously: You had an ambivalence to outsiders, and then you had
a resentment of outsiders to insiders, and that was a warring faction. It
didn’t get open and ugly, but it was always there. So that statement can
be understood. The people who were not real Dallasites and had seen
Dallas for what it really was didn’t have much confidence in what these
community meetings were. A lot of them had turned it off as being a
vehicle to promote certain people’s private agendas. John Stemmons
was regularly accused of pushing that Trinity project for his own private
use. I don’t think that was the case. I think he saw some public good
there, but it was on his property. Public schools--the warring banks were
always after--Republic and First National--were always warring over
Dallas money--the public school money, and I think they had their
private agendas, too. So the schools also become participants in the total
integration program.
Lovell:
In 1970, there was a conference at the Inn of the Six Flags, and you
were on a committee for Continuing Education with Bill Priest as the
chairman. It’s at the top [pointing to list],and I don’t know if you...
James:
What year was this?
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Interview with James H. Rhett
Lovell:
1970--in between the two Public Safety committees.
James:
Yes, I remember that.
Lovell:
What do you remember about it?
James:
Let me look at it. I’m trying to figure out what was “Continuing
Education”--real continuing education. Yes, I do see now. At that time,
it was obvious to me that if we were in the War on Poverty that the
public schools had to be a tool we’re using and that this should be an
opportunity for people to go back to school and get their GED or get
their educations and become skilled workers. I think that’s the way I
took it. I don’t see anybody else on this committee that had any other
points of view. That’s about all I can see there.
Lovell:
You were involved with Goals for Dallas work over a period of years.
How did you observe that Goals for Dallas had changed--not the goals
themselves, but the organization?
James:
I think there was less community concern for Goals for Dallas in
subsequent years because it did not live up to the expectations of some
people.
Lovell:
What expectations were those?
James:
I think they expected things to move a little faster in certain areas.
Lovell:
How did the African-American community feel about Goals for Dallas?
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Interview with James H. Rhett
James:
I think most of them didn’t know anything about it.
Lovell:
That’s what I wondered. Was it something the white community
decided on?
James:
That’s what it was. It was a white decision, and it came down quickly.
Lovell:
Did Goals for Dallas have anything for African Americans had they
known anything about it?
James:
They tried their best to stay away from cleavages, and especially racial
cleavages. Why? I don’t know who was their guidance. I think that was
all wrong. The best thing that could’ve happened for them was to put on
the table the problems. Now, let’s set the problems in task force, and
let’s work on the problems. They didn’t do that.
Lovell:
Now, someone that I talked to--and I can’t exactly remember this--said
that every time the Dallas leaders sensed that there was any kind of
steam building up, they’d open the lid and just let out enough steam to...
James:
Yes. That’s the theory.
Lovell:
And you think that was right?
James:
That was essential to community containment. That’s why I don’t
understand why we’re going over to fight this war in Iraq. That man
[Saddam Hussein] can be contained. That’s why I believe there’s some
personal agenda in this.
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Interview with James H. Rhett
Lovell:
Could be.
James:
I know there is. Has to be.
Lovell:
What was Goals for Dallas’s significance, do you think?
James:
Why I think it was significant--because for the first time in Dallas
history, people came to the table to speak, whether anybody listened to
it or not. It gave a voice that had not been heard, and it gave hope where
there was little hope. At least, it gave some hope.
Lovell:
What were its shortcomings?
James:
The shortcomings that could be seen from people who were up here
[gesturing], not down here. So the first participants at the table, they
would see no shortcomings. They may have come with an agenda, but
they couldn’t judge that agenda by shortcomings because they were not
in on the inner workings. So, from up here, I think there should have
been more inclusiveness on planning and on setting issues for
discussion rather than just blow up big--public safety, my goodness-about the whole universe. More involvement in planning was needed-we were served a new dish of food.
Lovell:
Too general, instead of specific?
James:
Too general, yes.
Lovell:
It seems like, maybe in about 1976, there was actually a separate--
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Interview with James H. Rhett
maybe even a separate organization--Goals for Black Dallas?
James:
Yes, somebody came up with that. I don’t remember now.
Lovell:
They did a comparison between Goals for Dallas and Goals for Black
Dallas, and that’s exactly what they found: that Goals for Dallas was too
general, as compared to Goals for Black Dallas had mainly specific
goals.
James:
A copycat entity with little substance.
Lovell:
What did you take away from your involvement in Goals for Dallas?
James:
Well, at that time I had six attaché cases in my trunk.
Lovell:
Full of material?
James:
All the boards I was working on.
Lovell:
(Chuckle) But not just Goals for Dallas?
James:
No. Six!
Lovell:
And is it because of Goals for Dallas?
James:
No. I was just involved in too many things. I just could not give my time
to concentrate on one thing. I had to give time while I was there or what
with preparation was being done, but when I left I had to leave because I
had to go--my time was taken up somewhere else.
Lovell:
You always had a dual career, at least.
James:
Dual career, plus community involvement. I was president of the OIC
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Interview with James H. Rhett
from 1976 to 1983. That’s a day-and-night program, and I had to make
sure it was operating, even though I had staff. I was the first black
president of the War on Poverty, incidentally.
Lovell:
In Dallas?
James:
Incidentally--War on Poverty. Zan Holmes was asked to come and sit
on stage when Martin Luther King came. He refused.
Lovell:
Now, what year was that? The 1961 visit?
James:
1961.
Lovell:
He refused?
James:
I. B. Loud had put him in this little church out there in Hamilton Park as
a mission church, and I. B. Loud told him not to have anything to do
with it.
Lovell:
And he did [what Loud asked].
James:
And he did. But when I got OIC established, when I got the War on
Poverty established and they got a staff, he became the first black
assistant director on staff--paid for.
Lovell:
Interesting.
James:
Isn’t that interesting?
Lovell:
Did you talk to him much at Salado?
James:
I don’t even remember him being there. I think Zan came in that
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Interview with James H. Rhett
Saturday group. There was a Saturday group.
Lovell:
That only came for one day?
James:
Yes, came for one day, yes. I don’t think he was there the whole time.
Lovell:
But you were there the whole three days?
James:
I was there the whole three days.
Lovell:
Is there anything I haven’t asked you about Goals for Dallas that you
want to add?
James:
I think if I were going to evaluate Goals for Dallas, I would have to give
the community an “A” for working toward community involvement,
especially from the vantage point of non-involvement previously. It was
a start. I think it created more self-respect for Dallas and more respect
for other of the Dallasites. I think it brought together--it was just a
human bond--it integrated people. But Dallas was not an integrated
community. So, when you add it up, it was a very positive thing.
Lovell:
Going back to Salado for one second--do you remember anything about
Dr. Donald Cowan as a discussion leader?
James:
He was always a very dull person to me. He was at the University of
Dallas, and he was owned by the power structure.
Lovell:
Dr. James, thank you very much for taking part in our project.
James:
Well, this is very good. I’m glad I was able to.
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