j
IN DIE HOOGGEREGSHOF VAN SCIP-AFRIKA
(tRANSVAALSE PRQVINSIALE AFDELING)
p
I?
PRETORIA
SAAKNOMMER: CC
1987-0B-26
PATRICK MABUYA BALEKA EN' 21
DIE STAAT t e e n ;
ANDER
SY EDELE REGTER VAX DIJKHORST
VOOR
ASSESSOR : MXR. V.F. KRUGEL
KAMENS DIE ST.4AT:
ADV. P.B. JACO:
ADV. P . FICK
J
ADV. V . HANEKO! ^ C
N.4MEN5 DIE VERDEDIGIKG
.\DV.
ADV.
ADV.
ADV.
ADV.
A . Ca\SK.-MSON
G . BIZOS
K . TIP
Z .M. YACOOB
G .J. MARCUS
MNR. B .S.X.
"OLK
70
SKOSAKA
KLAGTE
(5IEN .AKTE
PLEIT:
AL DIE BESKULDIGDES: ONSKULDIG
KONTRAKTEURS
LUBBE OPN'AMES
ISMAIL AYOB & ASSOCIATES
COPY
VOLUME 27D
FOR YOUR INFORMATION
(Bladsye
572 - -\k S67 )
BESKTLDIGIXG
E
-
663.02
14 572
-
HOLEFE
THE COURT RESUMES ON 1987*08-26:
POPO SIHOH MOLEFE, duly suorn states:
CDURT:
6efore you- start, Mr Jacobs, Mr B I Z D S and Mr Jacobs,
I would like to make an announcement.
It would obviate the
arrangements of counsel for the recess period.
My
learned
assessor is otherwise engaged from 12 to 23 October
snd W E
will therefore have the recess from 12 to 23 October.
This
Court will therefore not sit both days inclusive, therefore
there will be two weekends, one at the beginning and one s;
the end that has to be added to that period.
The second aspect is this:
what about Mr Kevin Harris?
Has ha been put on ice and will he -forever oe on ice?
'An .JAC035:
No, Sir. tiie will
Harris after we finish
with
clear
up
tne
this witness.
matter
of Mr
Lie were
quite
busy on preparing for the cross-examination of this witness,
but ue will come back to the Court.
CDL'ST:
and
Very well, as long as you do not forget about him,
as long as you give him amp is warning
of
the
Get a or.
which he is to appear.
MR C-ACQES:
We will arrange a date with tns defence.
MR 5IZD5:
M'Lord,
I seem
to
rsmemDer
that
Your
Lordsnip
asked him what his plans were and he = aid that he was leaving
towards ..
CDLir.T:
Something was said about August, I remember.
MR 5I2Q5:
Friends
sai^
UJe will check on that, but I did 25k My
for
that
the
there
State
was
what
their
pressure
on
attitude
them
and
was,
we
Leernec
and
left
they
it
at
that, but ue will fine Gut wnat his position is anc try =n:
get him back ss soon as possible.
FUF.THER CSOSS-EXAHI.'JATIprj 5Y MR JAC355;
Mr i-iclefe, I
like/...
573
363.04
-
MOLEFE
like to refer you to EXHIBIT »M23, that is in Voluoe U.
M'Lord,
I do not know if I should not respond
—
to some of
the things which were put to me yesterday and I said
I was
going to .read the speech by no 20 in respect of, I think,
! & • -
•V16" and "VIZ".
COURT:
Yes, very well.
those speeches? —
Do you have something to say about
I just want to draw attention to a feu
sections from that.
Which one do we start off with? -- Anyone that
first.
I have not got it with me now.
Are
apart
you
from
going
:
to
"V12" and
these two only.
•
comes
refer
n
V16"?
to
—
other
No,
documents
I want
to
as
well,
deal
with
There is just one more matter which relates
•
to a question that Your Lordship
raised
in respect of what
I said was normal political language, just a few things.
has been pretty
get
documents
difficult
because
for me to make any research
I am
not
supposed
lawyers and it is really difficult.
to
talk
to
It
and
the
I was not anticipating
that, but I have been able to get a book that contains contemporary speeches, delivered in, I think
1952 and 1583.
do net know if I could refer Your Lordship
I
to the sections
in that book.
Whose book is it? -- It is contemporary speeches by Dr
Neville Alexander.
deal quickly
EXHIBIT
Before that, maybe I should go quickly,
with the exhibits.
"V12",
the
Huhudi
Youth
I would
Organisation
tried to read the speech of no 20.
sense out of that
speech.
In
like to refer to
the
meeting.
I
It is difficult to make
past
we were
work on the transcript, try to correct it.
we have here is not what we corrected.
asked
to
sesms what
I do not know uhat
happened/...
MOLEFE
863.OB
happened, but I just want to refer to the comments made at
page
5 4 by Hoffmann
Galeng, who was the chairman
of the
interim committee in the Northern Cape, after the speech of
no 2CU
I uant to refer to the last paragraph on that page-
It reads as follows; it is written in Afrikaans:
•Julie ueet almal
dat die bestaan van HUCA net gekom
as gevolg van die verskuiuing
geld.
groat
en die opgaan van huur-
Die UDF kan ons DDk help.
geraas
soos
*n maer
hond-
koerante dat UDF kom uit die ANC.
met die ANC nie.
Mense, Botha mask *r.
Julie
lees
in die
Ons het cesn verband
Dns weet niks van politiek nie. dJa"
•ns nis wil he nie is die apartheid uat ons met ons O E
s i e n, "
Now, it was put to me that.accused no 2D sought to associate
the UDF uiith the ANC t
Mkonto we Sizue.
M' Lord, if I reec
that section, it does not tsll me that. Then
to refer to EXHIBIT "VIS".
1 would
like
I want to refer to page 3<* from
the last paragraph, I think right up to page 35 initially.
No 2D deals
with
the issue,
I think
the question
of the
loss of lives, then he has got this to say:
°But hou many
lives
dio Smith
combined
hou many lives did they sacrifice
bsfore
with
Vorster,
Smith got tc
his sense, before he was brought to the point where he
is sitting now peacefully, he claimed peace."
And then it is inaudible, that section.
Then he says:
•These monkeys here at home want to do the same thing."
It dees appear like accusen no 2D here is concerned
the lass of life, and then the middle parsgrapn
long paragraph there, he has got this to say:
H
Our obligation therefore .•"
Maybe/...
anou:
there, the
•4
B63.10
Maybe
-
U 575
-
HOLEFE
I should read the whole section, the paragraph
that
follows the one I had just read.
t?;r
"ide a r e s a y i n g
U-
saying
-T'l
4
the
thened.
that nonsense must be stopped,
United
Democratic
Front
mu9t
life a r e
be
streng-
The people of South Africa will have confidence
:
i
i .-"„•
in them, that the people of our
!*-""
increasingly
\
w r o n g , a s to w h a t in fact the intentions of the G o v e r n -
?"••
ment a r e . De a r e confident
informed
as to why
country
as they
thi3 constitution
that Black
are
is
and U n i t e " will
w i t h h o l d t h e i r s u p p o r t for this g o v e r n m e n t . "
Then he s a y s :
i 1
q
Our
obligation
therefore
stretches
m o b i l i s i n g for this e l e c t i o n .
•
towards
also
themselves,
situation,
mc-biilising
Our obligation
even
amongst
will
not s u p p o r t
they may not by leaving the c o u n t r y .
I
! I
]
the armed f o r c e s .
gaol far r e f u s i n g
compatriots
South
the
Afrikaners
African
this,
although
Some are long y e a r s in
that.
communities
of the
Many are refusing
tD fight an unjust w a r .
a r e doing
this
strEtches
to open their eyes tD the gravity
and they
to go into
far beyond
I am . asking
together
with
Our White
y o u , many
other
South
fi
» t
•
African communities that we must combine our efforts,
1
I i
-I
me must intensify
.;' ]
our people
} !
26th because we want peace
see,
we
that
can
the mobilisation and we must
they must not vote
only
Justice is a fact.
government.
.. |
:
I\
have
peace
22nd
country.
if
Let everybody
the
there
is
participate
But
anc
you
justice.
in the
Let everyDody have houses, let everybody
education.
Then we will
have
in our
on
inform
have
There
peace.
is
nothing
As
to
fight
about,
long monkey/...
as you have
one
863.11
-
1U 576
-
MOLEFE
*
nonkey sitting there, he takes everything for himself."
|??'
Noy, M'Lord,
• -
believes that if the neu constitution
!"';;••
that would create conditions for peace.
r
36 he is talking
|
X see that
really
being
a call
for peace. He
is effectively
opposed
Then again at page
there about people sitting around
the fire
}?' *
and others blocking others, not allowing them to sit around
|r-*"
that fire.
?
At paragraph 2 of that page he says:
"There is a dBnger, there is a danger in this type of
4.
thing.
The change of policies are .."
and then that section is unaudible, and then:
;
"..protecting
and hiding
the fire
from all
of
us who
i
made a contribution, and while you are not contributino
!
we might just push you into the fire to burn."
u
And then in the next paragraph he says:
•Ue are very
serious about that.
to do that. Ue are still now
•" "'
force
us
into
into the fire.
• ^^
* »
i
a position
Now we do not want
persuading,
where
we
have
look,
to
don't
push
you
But now you have seen you are covering
the fire and we are sitting
cold.
If you
don't,, it
was only allowed for the situation in which you stanc
there and we stand in front of the basis of enjoyinc
;
the
fire
together.
>
other words, we are
Ue will
have
dying, we have
no alternative, in
to push
you
into
the fire."
i
Now, that again, M'Lord,
I think gives
a clear
indication
of the spirit in which the speech was delivered, that we do
not want a situation where other people would be injured, s
situation where we would have to push others into the fire.
, ;
From page 43 of that transcript, really
he deals with what
the UDF presents as an alternative to the new constitution,
and/...
363.12
577
MOLEFE
-
and he deals with the whole question of the national convention.
I think
like to read
it.
it goes
that.
right up to page Ukm
I think
it suffices just
5o that as I understand
I would
to
not
refer
to
it then, it is really not
a
situation where no 20 was promoting violence in that meeting.
I would
then
lanouage.
like
to
turn
to
the
question
of
political
I have chosen very feu pages, paragraphs which I
think will give an indication of the kind of language
other people are using uho have nothing to do with
and the ANCWhat
that
the DDF
M'Lord, this is a book ..
is the
title
book is Saw the Wind.
of
the
book? —
The
title
of
the
It is contemporary speeches by Neville
Alexander.
The first really of the speeches is the one we
had already
referred
to
in my
evidence
in chief,
the
one
dealing with the concept of united fronts, let us unite in
the year of the united front. It is a speech that was written
in 1962.
I want to refer specifically to page 11 to
that speech.
Dn
page
11
paragraph
question Df enemy, uho is the enemy.
3
he
deals
12 of
with
the
I do not know if Your
Lordship would like me to read what I am referring to, or 1
can just refer to it.
You can just give me the sentence in which it is said.
—
In this context I may well have to read the whole para-
graph up to page 12.
It is headed
"tdho is the Enemy?"
He
says :
-I
]
4
:
"The problem
enemy.
of unity
rests on the
definition
of
the
That is to say only those people can nape ta
unite their farces who identify the enemy in a broadly
similar manner.
an extremely
This seems simple enough, yet
complex matter.
Far ane
thing,
it is
even
different/...
if
578
863.14
-
MOLEFE
different tendencies or organisations can agree on hoy
to
define
changes
the
from
enemy
period
nay yesterday
p
at
to
given
period.
have appeared
liberation
may
farces
liberation.
of
any
tomorrow
moment,
Groups
this
people
uho
to be on the side of
the
clearly
Who
of
enemy
stand
doubts
against
today
the
that
the
Matanzima 's, the Sebe's or the Hpepu's are on the side
of the enemy?
These people and the power clique
they
have
represent
a state
apartheid/capitalism.
They
in separate
have
said
that
development/
and
they
have
shown that like the majority of Unites in 5outh Africa
they are prepared tD die in order to defend the system
with
or without
racial
certain
discrimination.
changes
When we
in
the
practices
consider
the
of
leaders
of Inkatha, the SAIC and the Labour Party on the other
hand, many people would
they
too have
enemy.
placed
hesitate
themselves
to say
bluntly
on
side
the
that
of
the
Yet it is obviously a vital question as far as
the attainment
concerned.
of unity
in the liberation movement
is
If some of us are prepared to tolerate the
collaborationist
strategies
of
the
socalied
Black
Alliance while others are not, this simply means that
ue differ as regards our definition
of the enemy.
It
means further that there is no basis for unity between
* ' i
us.
Tram
this practical example we can ses how
com-
plicated the question of unity can be."
I think
that suffices
to make the
point,
M'LDrd.
then move to page 16, I think that section would
I;
I will
take part
of page 16 and part of page 17.
I am particularly interes-
ted in the section
the
dealing
with
events
of
It/...
June
1276.
c
863.17
It
is
579
a section
under
the
-
MDLEFE
subheading
"The United
Front".
It reads as follows:
•The intensification of the struggle in Southern Africa
.
>•
• :
and the mortal danger of disunity and civil war amongst
the oppressed people have created a situation of urgency.
Ever
become
since
clear
the
to
all
historic
events of
serious-minded
1976
it
militants
that
has
us
can work together and that ye can have unity in action,
even though we have not reached
full agreement
on all
principles. n
I will
leave
it at
that this speaker
that, but
is using
Your
Lordship
concepts like
will
realise
"liberation move-
ment" in the two paragraphs that I have read, talking about
historic events of 1976, talking about the oppressed people,
talking about militants, talking about unity in action, and
this
is in 1962, M'Lord.
front.
He really
says a lot on
unitec
That 1 can leave because Your Lordship has got this
pap=r already as an exhibit.
I may just rsfsr
to the fact
tftsz he is also talking about the struggle for liberation.
Page 19 paragraph - I think it is the Isst paragraph there,
it is a speech that was delivered
really
a funeral oration,
Naidoo by Dr Neville
Athione
Civic
interested
in action.
Centre,
in November 1962.
I think, at
Alexander
Cape
on
TQwn.
the funeral
2 November
In
in the section where he is
that
1962
It is
of
Jin
at
the
section
talking
about
I air.
unity
He ssys:
"He was dedicated to the ideal of unity in action."
And then of course at page 20, the second paragraph at page
20 of
the
same
speech, he
is talking
about
the
democratic movement, at paragraph 2.
"He/...
national
863.19
-• 1**
"He accepted
that
in
580
-
HOLEFE
a national
democratic
movement
there must be room for disagreement as long as basic
principles such as non-racialism are not compromised."
And then there is at page 27, there is again a speech which
really starts at page 23, it is titled
ion".
""
This uas a paper
congress
j
of the
December 1962.
Azanian
a
The National Situat-
that uas
delivered
at an annual
People's
Organisation,
AZAPD
At page 27 of that spesch, paragraph 1 - I
think I would start with the last sentence on page 25.
^
,
in
He
says:
•Permit
me
to
issue
a warning
in
brackets
at
this
point against the background of rapid historical change
1/
that
\
\
I have
sketched.
yesterday's
It
revolutionary
conservative bastion.
is well
to
position
remember
becomes
that
today's
After all, even the oppressors
? *
themselves today indulge in the discourse of 'decolon-
«
*
isation' and
'nan-racialism1.
The
very
language
of
.j
politics and of social theory
3 *A
though it is still
j '
words people use, we have to turn them over and over
j
again as we would do with suspected counterfeit money."
1
very
has become suspect and
important
to
listen
to
the
I WDuld then like to move to page 29 of the same speech.
It would be the first paragraph on that page, and in this
j
instance
I
I am interested
in the word
"destruction".
He
says:
*
j
"tie would be compelled
j
same kinds
•;
company
•j ;
i5; ::!
are
of
things
trying
to
in the medium
as
do
those
which
today,
term to do the
P td Botha
trying
to
and
overhaul
their system with a view to avoiding its total riestruction."
Then/...
863^1
-
14 581
-
HOLEFE
Then I uould like to move to page 30 to 31.
It would reelly
be uhat one uould
page.
cell paragraph
on to - I think
page
31.
paragraph 1 at page 31.
start somewhere
It
2 on that
ends
at
uhat
It goes
one
can
call
It reads as follows - I uill just
- I uill
start
from
the
beginning
of
alliance
uith
the White workers
the
paragraph:
•Consequently
to
the
be downgraded
partners
in
the
middle
class
whether
or
in
new
and
not
importance.
allicance
their
they
are
Instead
are
to
political
at
the
be
is
junior
the
Black
representatives,
present
collaborating
in
thepolitical institutions created by the South African
State.
and
A class of Black
through
a slightly
people
modified
is to be nurtured
in
apartheid
so
system,
that they uill have a vested interest in the perpetuation
of
that
system.
From
this
leaders of the oppressed will have
CD-opted
by
the
system.
They
uill
put up as the models for the Elack
group
the
socalled
to go forth
be
and be
advertised
workers and
and
unless
the workers produce and maintain an independent leadership, they, the vest majority
fact be rendered
of our
people, uili
ieaderiess and defenceless.
in
Already
the Santustan misleaders of whom the 5ebe brothers
are
only the most vulgar and brutal specimens, are showing
that a small section of Black
people in South
are
perhaps
prepared
to
imprison
and
even
to
Africa
kill
other Black people for the maintenance of the apartheid
status quo.
Let us have no illusions.
of the Bantustan leadership should
that
there
are
other
more
subtle
The vulgarity
not make us
ways
in
middle/...
forget
which
a.
863.22
-
14582
middle class can be tied
sive system.
as
-
MDLEFE
hand and
foot
to an oppress
The virtual neutralisation of our teachers
political
animals
and
through
salary
increases,
fringe benefits and the threat of dismissals should be
a
solitary
reminder
to all
people can be trapped
an
overwhelming
to
that
systematically
middle
unless
force
class
there
towards
is
which
In 1924 it was the Crestwelis and
the Boydells of the White
workers
us
countervailing
they can gravitate-
Unite
of
Labour
the capitalist
Party
that tied
bandwagon.
the
LJe must
allou the Currie's and the Rajbanjee's of the Coloured
Labour Party
and the 5outh
African
Indian
Council
to
tie the oppressed people to an exploitative system for
another 60 years."
M'Lord, I would then move to page 34 of this book, page 34,
I think I will go an to - plus certain
sections in 35 and
36.
the
paragraph
deals with the national liberation movement.
It says:
There
I am
"It is high
really
time
that
the
PFP,
part
of
the
of and
that
Inkatha
national
their system-bound
tion
interested
we
stop
and
giving
other
liberation
arguments
protest
in
such
the
that
impression
groupings
movement
by
are
using
to articulate our rejec-
against
apartheid
measures.
To
talk about the Coloured people having sold the African
people down the river because a few vernslC?) political
pygmies
have
now
formally
master's
kitchen.
Without
included
is to fall
into
gone
inside
insisting
the
trap
into
that
their
Black
of playing
be
ethnic
politics as defined by the rulers and as advertised in
svery ruling class newspaper in the country."
The/...
863.24
- 14 583
-
HOLEFE
The second paragraph at page 39 really also deals with the
question
-!j ;
movement.
j .
of collaboration
I think
and the national
I should not read
liberation
that o n e , or maybe I
should read i t .
i
]'
i
"However, theirs is a regime of c r i s i s .
j
is rife with contradictions such as differences between
*
Botha and Treurnicht, Botha
:
the Bantustan leadership, Botha and
the army and so forth.
^
Their position
and Slabbert, Botha and
.. Parliament anc
Fundamentally
therefore this
is a weak regime that has in fact lost
the historic
initiative in Southern Africa to the national liberation movement. n
•
The last paragraph on that page reads as follows:
"For this reason
the regime
the question
of collaboration
is vital. Collaboration
collaboration
I
certain circles among the Black middle class in town
country
agreed
parameters.
to work
the apartheid/
\
problem
I
mechanically
1
those
;
stitutions
j
position today.
\
leaders, management and local area committee members,
of political
solved.
who work
since
since
Bantustan
the middle
collaboration
5D's the
has been
UJe have correctly
in Government-created
to be collaborators.
African
cillors
ever
within
Ever
J A
South
system,
those
can expand; non-
,
and
reduces
with
almost
conceded all
political in-
This
remains the
Bantustan leaders, community council
Indian
Councillors,
and prospective
members
President's
of the kitchen
Counpar-
liament, all these are collaborators who by now knowingly work the very instruments that oppress us."
I would like now to deal with page 39 and going on to page
883.26
40.
-
1* 584
-
MOLEFE
The biggest paragraph at page 39, I think one can say
is paragraph 3, reads as fallows:
"Against
this background
our demand
Azania
we can see more
for a non-racial(
is for us a matter
are not
and
of life and
just nice-sounding
glossary.
non-ethnic
words
from
clearly
why
undivided
death.
some
These
political
These slogans embrace for the oppresesd and
exploited people of South
Africa
their only
guarantee
of escaping from the bondage of neo-apartheid which is
the
socio-political
oppression
of
the
capitalist
system. 0
'
Then in the last part - I think
I should leave it at that.
I think the last section on that page, the last paragraph
reads as follows:
n
As
against the new dispensation we have
to insist on
-our primary demand for the convention of a constituent
assembly elected on the basis of one person, one vote
at which democratically elected representatives of the
nation will
The
decide on a new
constituent
assembly
constitution
will
not
be
going
to
be
convened
by
the
present
It is a goal for which we shall have to
the
:
'.
years
ahead
with
even
greater
Azania.
a gathering
representatives of socalled ethnic groups.
not
for
Df
It is also
Government.
struggle
dedication
in
than
before."
CDURT:
What is not going to be convened, a national conven-
tion? -- Constituent assembly.
Uhat is the difference between
I
a constituent
assembly
and a national convention? -- I do not know about that.
I
i
think
those who support
this have
argued
that, those
support/...
who
863.29
-
14 565
-
HQLEFE
support the national convention believe that people who are
.V?
currently
j;
representing
and so on.
ethnic groups will also participate
I cannot remember the full argument thereof.
f „.•
'
So
does
the
one
include
everyone
and
the other
no:
include everyone? -- I think possibly what they are saying
is that it may include everyone but not on the basis thet
you come from the Indian community, you come from the Afrikanj
er community and so on, simply on the basis that you are a
human being, you have been elected.
^
cannot profess to know much about
I am not quite sure, I
that.
Then page 49, I
;
* .
if
think page 49 really deals with - he is really criticising
those people who believe that we can have organisations like
\ '
the Natal Indian Congress, Transvaal Indian Congress and ac
.'
on.
The "last
paragraph, it continues up to
page
50, it
reads as follows:
°These are weighty conclusions on which history itself
•
(since 196D and especially since 1976) has pronounced a
;
negative judgment.
I "^
today is tD go backwards, not forward.
•
the hands of the reactionary
j
It is a reactionary, not a progressive policy from the
• .
point of view of the liberation
whole.
j
Imagine
TD fan the fires of ethnic politics
us
It plays int2
middle-class leadership.
advocating
movement
Indian,
taken
as =
Coloured
and
African trade unions or student unions today.
There is
j!
;
•
a
diametrically
opposite
view
within
the
liberation
i
* .
movement, even though it is held by a very small minority
of people.
According to this view our struggle is net
a
far
struggle
national
liberation.
It
is
a
class
j"
struggle, pure and simple, one in which a working class
'[I
uii 11 wrest power
from
the capitalist
class. For this
reason/...
863,30
-
reason
what
the
workers
socalled
1** 586
-
should
be
group
they
MDLEFE
organised
belong
regardless
to.
This
tendency
seems to say (in theory) that the historically
differences
are
irrelevant
or
at
best
of
of
evolve::
secondary
importance.•
COURT:
LJhere does the author stand? -- It seems in respect
of the question that ours is a pure class struggle, he seems
to be against the word.
Against the class struggle? —
But
he
also
where you have
seems
- what
think his approach
to
is
be
Yes, he seems to be ..
against
like
the
the
other
TIC and
the
position
NIC. —
is that people must be organised
basis of individually
- quality
and - when an
1
;
on the
organisation
is formed, it must be formed and then it can have a brancn
in the Indian area, rather than have a special
organisation
in an area reserved far Indians and that organisation having
an Indian name
really
tag of an Afrikaner
he is just
using
name
a quotation
tag.
At page 5D
I think
he had
taken
from a speech by President Samora Machel which was, I think,
reported in UIP No 6 of 1983.
What document? —
read
that section-
Working
It
is at
2
.
Progress
page
51
No 6.
I will not
in small
lettering.
Then at page 54, just a small section, paragraph 3, he says:
•All struggles (local, regional and national) should be
linked up.
No struggle should be fought by one colour
group aloneexample
The
should
not
President's
be
Council's
analysed
and
proposals
acted
interest to the Coloureds and Indians only.
bills
should
be
clearly
seen
and
fought
upon
far
as of
The Koornhc-f
as affectinc
all the oppressed and exploited people."
There/. ..
3'
587
863.31
MOLEFE
-
There, M'Lord, really particularly In the whole question of
linking,
the use of
the
word
"struggle" and
struggles and the uihole question of using
as "fought", "fight" and so on.
last
paragraph,
I
think
it
linking
those
terminology
such
Then at page 55, it is the
really
continues
page 56, it reads as fallows, it is headed
briefly
into
"The Historical
Role of the Black Working Class".
•The Black working
class
is
the
driving
liberation struggle in South Africa.
force
of
the
It has to ensure
that the leadership of this struggle remains with it if
our efforts are not
disaster.
The
to be
Black
deflected
working
into
class
has
channels of
to
act
as a
magnet that draws all the other oppressed layers of our
society"; organises them for the liberation struggle anc
imbues
them
with
ideas which
alone
the
consistent
democratic
socialist
spell death to the system of racial
capitalism as we know it today."
M'Lord, that is as . far as I could go.
In the position in
which
difficult
I find
myself,
I
find
it
really
to
make
research and get mors of these things-^" I think partly
soms
of these things really deal with the things that counsel has
been
putting
Alexander
very
has
tD
me.
been
very
All
I
can
critical
critical of the ANC.
say
of
is
the
that
Or
Neville
UDF. He has
He has been partly
been
critical of
the Black Consciousness position insofar as it exluded every
Unite person.
New, why is he critical of the UDF? —
basis that the UDF thinks that it can bring
body, the Unite working class, the Slack
I think
on the
together every-
working class, the
sons and daughters of the bosses, the Black Sash.
So/...
568
863.33
-
MOLEFE
So that actually la a pure socialist?
has against
the UOF? —
la that what he
I do not know, because he is dif-
fering with those people who are saying that the struggle is
a struggle of the working class alone.
So he seems to be a square peg in all round holes? -That may be so.
I do not know.
argue his position.
What
He is the only one who can
I think he seems to
is his allegiance,
Is he just an independent
or
has he
thinker? --
got
no
I think
allegiance?
he
is
- he
believes that - he advocates that there must be participation of the Black working class in the struggle, and what
would regard as maybe
the revolutionary
people who align themselves with
who
do
not
believe
struggle with
that
you
intellectual, those
that Black
can be
he
working
involved
in
class,
the
seme
traders' associations and so on. So that thE
LJDF is seeking to bring everybody together, traders, religious
organisations,
his speech
everybody.
on the
If
question
one deals
of
for
organisations
instance
wi tn
like
TIC,
the
NIC, the way he deals with the question of who is the enemy
and so on, he seems to be saying
that only those who agree
en everything can come together.
[But now, i3 he a man of violence or a man of peace?
No, he is not a man of violence.
At one stage
of a political
case about it.
—
He is a man of peace.
there was an Alexander who was convicted
offence.
I think there was some sort of a
Is this man
a different
man?
—
This man
did, I think, about t2n years or so on the island. I do net
know the circumstances.
On Robben Island? —
about
the
circumstances
That is so.
of
his
I am not quite sure
cese, but
he
is
really/...
currently
569
663.36
really
8 proper
-
educationalist.
HOLEFE
He
has
been
heading
the
South African Council for Higher Education.
ASSESSOR (MR KRUGEL):
Is he a White man? -- He is Coloured,
but he will fight me if I call him Coloured.
He will prefer
to be called a South African.
COURT:
What council does he head? —
SACHED, I think, Soutn
African Council for Higher Education.
MR BIZDS:
Your Lordship can take it for granted that it is
the reported case of 5 v ALEXANDER, but he got a doctorate,
this is why today he is Dr Alexander.
OUTNESS:
can do
M'LorU,
I would
then say, I think
in terms of responding
to the
that is all I
questions
which
were
raised.
MR JACOBS:
Mr-Molefe, just on-this part of Dr Alexander, to
clear it up.
He was sentenced - he is not such a peaceful
man as you are trying to give out to the Court.
I put it ts
you that he was sentenced to ten years1 imprisonment
Supreme
Court
in Cape
Town on sabotage? -- It may
that he was a violent man at that time.
- several
later
people
assumed
highest
'
to violent
3 position
office
in
Uorster had been
t
belong
of
countries,
a member
trust
for
instance,
one,
Mr
they
the
B J
of the Ossewabrandwag, as was Mr
van den Berg, but Mr B J Vorster
hignest
office
State
and
responsibility,
Hendrik
of
well be
Many people belong
organisations
and
in the
President.
ended
Similarly
Berg became the head, the chief of the
up
Mr
Intelligence
in the
Wan
de-
Service
in the country.
COURT:
point
So you mean there is hope for Dr Alexander? -- THE
I am trying
to make
is that one
cannot
really
mov =
from the position that because at X time you were supporting
this/...
590
663.39
this
side,
you
perpetually
-
belong
HOLEFE
there.
So
many
people
have crossed the floor, 1 believe the late Mr John Wiley, I
think
he
was
Deputy
Minister
of
Environment
and
so
on,
Environmental affairs and so on, had also been a member of
the United Party, I think, at one stage.
cross floors.
I think
5o really
people
When one looks at Dr Beyers Maude for instance
he uas a member of the
Broederbond
and he was an
arcnitect of - he uas really part of the real - the machine,
ideological machine in terms of the policies, but now he has
turned
against
that after some
that the position uas correct.
time.
Others still believe
People change in the course
of time, they shift from place to place.
MR JACOBS:
Mr Molefe, do you agree that all
the
examples
now mentioned by you, there is not one of them that you can
point out that actively participated
overthrow
a government? —
in violence in order tc
As I understood
it, the Osseue-
branduag believed that they had to fight it Dut.
The people mentioned by you, they uere not persons who
personally
committed
any acts of violence? -- Idell, I have
not got any special knowledge
of that, but 1 can
say
tnar
there are reports that Mr Vorster uss detained.
ASSESSOR (MR KRUGEL): Cl do not knou now many experts on tne
'Osseuabranduag uie have in court, but I do not think that you
can really come to the conclusion that the Osseuabranduag as
an organisation condoned violence? -- I am not an expert on
tnat.
I am not an expert either. -- All I can say is thst Mr
3 3 Vorstar is knoun to have been one of those uho condoneo
it.
It may
be that the uhole organisation
uas not, mayos
people like Mr Van Rensburg did not conoone it.
591
863.40
About
really
that
I am
I am trying
-
sure. —
HDLEFE
Yes, but
others
did.
All
was
in a
to say is that once a person
particular position, it does not follow that he is perpetually in
that
thing. If I get convicted
for a particular
act
and I serve my sentence, it does not follow - I may hold the
same ideals, but I may not be committed to the same methods.
I may
hold
the
ideal
that
we
need
to
have
a
non-racial
democratic South Africa, but one learns a lot on what kinn
of methods to adopt to arrive at that.
MR JACOBS:
Mr Molefe, Dr Alexander, is he a member of any
organisation?
Is he a member
he was not a member of AZAPO.
Forum
of AZAPO? -- To my knowledge
He was sitting on the National
Committee, and he is also a member of a local
association
there.
The
name
appears also in this book.
The
National
Forum
of
that
civic
civic
association
I cannot remember exactly.
Committee,
AZAPO? -- It may well be.
was
that
initiated
by
I am not certain, but AZAPO is
still ..
Mr Molefs, were they not your opponents on the questiJi
of unity, unity in action and on the front or a united body?
-- I do not understand the question.
The National Forum, was that not an
unite
the people on a national
idea
of AZAPO
Dasis and thet UDF
and
tn
the
people in the UDF came with the same idea, that you were the
opponents to AZAPO on that question of unifying on a national
basis? -- They were involved in that.
They uaniad to unite
organisations. Black organisations, to oppose the constitutional proposals, but I was not a member of AZAPQ.
I canno:
say if really that idea started within AZAPO.
It might have
started somewhere and was taken up by AZAPO.
As I
Dr/...
see
it.
c
14 592
863.42
-
MOLEFE
Dr Alexander seemed to have been one of those people really,
amongst
J/.SV
If-:
m
i-
•
1982,
the first
and
formed,
in
people
who
called
when
the
National
fact
it was already
decision,
seriously
Forum
- it uas after
the Anti-Sake
for
that in
Commitee
the UDF had
conference had
bias
taken a
taken a decision to
form a united front.
Uihen was the National Forum Commitee formed?
LJhat din
you say about 1982? -- I say the ceil uas m2de in -1582 by Mr
Neville Alexander, but the actual formation' of the National
1
Forum I think U B S between April and June 1963.
uihen did
they
start
working
on
that
call
to
form
National Forum Committee? -- I am not certain about it.
seeras - I do not know, I cannot remember.
there
has
argument
been
an
argument
was widely
by
members
circulating
and
it
2
It
But in any event
of
the
is
in
DBAC,
one
exhibits here, I cannot remember what exhibit-
that
of
the
It may well
be EXHIBIT nti)5n .where they are arguing that the Charterists stole thE
idea of the united front from the Black Consciousness movement
because
formed
those
the
UDF
in
the
knew
Charterist
the
prestige
organisation
that
whole concept of forming a uniteo front.
would
who
go
later
with
the
They argued strong-
ly that Dr Boesak stale that idea initially from the discussions which
were
taking
place
also
within
the
DBAC.
The
DBAC had been formed in 1982, I think in August 1982 in the
Western
Cape to oppose
the Koornhof
bills.
So that
there
have been those arguments really.
Is it not so that AZAPD was the leaoing organisation in
this National Forum? -- Well, it is reported as the leading
organisation.
I think
in
a sense
that
it
was
broadest national political organisation.
And/. ..
maybe
the
663.45
-
14
593
-
HQLEFE
And do you know who was the organisation that was doing
all the organising of getting
and who took
| ""
_,
this National
Forum
together
the initiative? -- Wo, I do not knou.
I was
not in that thing.
You did not find out? —
Mr Molefe, I would
•\M2" and you referred
No, I do not know.
like to go back firstly
to what Mr
Hoffmann
to
EXHIBIT
Galeng
said
on
page 54. -- That is so.
Nour, Mr Molefe, I put it to you, what Mr Gaieng and my
interpretation
of this is what Mr Galeng
to the people on
that
assist them, and second
in the country
*
meeting
in putting
is first, that
the
across
UDF
that the people in the rural
does not know much about the AfJC, and
can
areas
they
I
only read about it, that in the papers it was said that
kom uit
die AfJC", but they do not know about it and
n
UDF
there
was a person here from the UDF who will enlighten them? -That is so.
That sentence is very explicit.
He says there
is an allegation that the UDF comes from the AfJC and then he
says, we have no connection with the ANC, and this pErson is
1 t
the chairman of the UDF interim committee.
i
Mow, can you explain
individual.
.. -- So that he is not just an
I cannot debate that with counsel, but that is
hou I understand it.
(Jill you just read
this
sentence
and
explain
what
is
meant by:
"Julie lees in die koer2nte
UDF kam uit die ANC.
Dns
het geen veraand met ANC nie."
That is the people in the country he is referring to.
"Dns tiieet niks van poiitiek nie."
I put it to you that he is referring in this sentence to the
'
people/...
MDLEFE
863.
people In the country? -- I do not understand
it that
These people are talking
Huhudi
at a meeting
of
the
way.
Youth
Organisation.
'-•I: "-
What
does
that
mean?
--
I believe
he
is
addressing
himself to the members of the Huhudi organisation.
It may
Lie 11 be that there were other people who were not members,
but he is talking here about these people and the supporters
of the UDF.
And
can
you
tell
us, who
are the
people
that
he
is
referring to here, who knows nothing about politics? -- X am
saying he is referring to members of the organisation
is present
there, amongst
them,
Huhudi
Youth
which
Organisation
f -
members.
All he is saying really, I understand him
really
to be saying that ye are concerned about this thing
of apartheid.
Ordinarily ue would not have been
because
interested
in politics, but we can see apartheid, we know how it affects
us.
I put it to you further that the person who cleared
up an the connection with apartheid, between
UDF and apart-
heid was accused no - UDF and the ANC, that was accused
20. --
I do not accept
that proposition.
it
I think
na ~c
he will
speak for himself, because this speech is really - there are
large
sections of this speech which are
they
uere
spending
inaudible
sleepless
Dr
nights
something.
trying
to
I
not
hers.
rememoer
listen
to
Either
actually
this
tape.
That work that I did is not here.
f
pp .you agree that the people
conversed
in
politics
tnan
the
in the country is not su
people
in
the
cities?
Weil, there may be instances, there may be places, but there
havs also been instances when one reads in the history, for instance/...
663.50
595
HQLEFE
-
instance about the struggles around Bantu education
5Q's, strikingly
enough
and
surprisingly
enough
in
the
people
uho
were - in fact also with regard to the anti-pass campaigns,
people
in
places
like
Zeerust
uere
more
involved,
active that people in certain urban areas.
depends.
So that
more
it all
I do not knou.
And was it accepted as such b.y the UDF that the country
is not so conversant in the - the countryside, people
countryside
are
not
so
conversant
with
politics
in the
than
the
people in the cities, and that a special drive must be made
to mobilise and politicise
them in the country? —
I think
we have said in the past that there is a low level of organisation
in
the
rural
areas,
as
compared
to
the
urban
areas, and I think we identify the problem amongst others as
being problems like resources and transportation, the villages
are
far
apart,
far
difficult to walk
from
each
other,
and
normally
it
from one village jto another, unlike
is
if I
have to walk from one township in Soweto t,o another xounship
or
from
Soweto
tD
Alexandra,
it
is
very
easy
to
travel
because there is a lot of transport, public transport.
And the next exhibit, Mr Molsfe, is the one which you
referred
part
I
read
to, is EXHIBIT
out
by
"-1/16".
you, that
Wow, I put it to you, the
thers
warning to the - you referred
is
a
to pages
clear
message
and
35 to 36, that in
this passage there is a clear warning to the White people
ta
either line up with the UDF and there is also^a clear warning
,to the Government that if they do not listen, if the Government
does
not
listen
to
the
warnings
Whites do not listen to the warning
will ne pushed
of
the
UDF
and
of the UDF, then
into the fire and they
will be killed,
that/...
the
they
and
596
863.52
-
MDLEFE
that is what is meant by this "Ue will have no alternative",
in other word9, ue are dying, ue have
fire.
to push
you into
It is a clear ultimatum, a clear warning? —
understand
that*
I think
there is a
the
I do not
difference
between a
yarning and an ultimatum, and all I understand it to mean is
that this kind
of a situation might well influence
certain
people to take up - tD adopt methods that are unpleasant.
think
really
persist,
what
you would
he
is
have
saying
is
that
problems, the
when
I
injustices
problems may
become
serious, but the whole thing read in context, it is clearly
calling for peace, and he is actually suggesting a method to
that end.
Mr
Molefe,
can
you
explain
to
the
Court,
how
is
he
calling for peace when he says "Ue will have no alternative"?
—
Are we dealing with page 36?
36, that is the fourth paragraph,
the end of it. -- I
think he made the position very clear before he says, we do
not want
that, we do not want
like it, and in the pages that
that to happen.
I referred
Ue
to,
do not
towards
the
ena of his speech, at page - I think I referred to, page 43 •
to 44, it is clear that he is not saying, let us prepare for
violence.
He is saying there are other alternatives.
saying that, and that is very clear to me.
He is
I do not agree
with counsel.
When you explain
the words, that was my question, . "LJe
will have no alternative", that there is no alternative, and
the "me" I suppose are the people
that is not the
- he
had
in
no mandate
woulo adopt a violent method.
the
to
UDF?
say
I no not know.
-- No, no,
thst
the
UDF
I understano
it the way I have explained it, if he meant any other thing that/
863.56
597
that
of the UDF policy.
is not representative
-
MOLEFE
I think
he
can deal uith his own words.
But you mentioned this part, Mr Molefe, you brought it
out this morning.
So
can
D
what he is meaning by
you
not
give
an explanation
of
Ue will have no alternative, ue have
j
•i
-
to push you into the fire"? —
it may
well mean
that
if
I have explained it to mean,
that
situation
persists, certain
individuals might decide to go for unpleasant methods.
is all I can say.
This is not my speech,
That
I cannot attempt
to be authoritative on this.
Now, what individuals will go for unpleasant .. -- I do
not know.
Mr Molefe, can ue go on then?
morning uith EXHIBIT "U23 n .
to start
this
That is the SASP'J National.
was found uith 5 Bolton of Lenasia.
—
I wanted
It
Do you knou 5 Bolton?
No, I do not knou that person.
5A5PU National is one of the community newspapers.? -- I
think it is a student newspaper.
Which students? -- Idell, I do not knou.
are
linked
with
all
the
universities,
Unite
I think
they
universities.
5A5FU is really South African Student Press Union.
Mr Molefe, I would
like
to
refer
you
to
page
7, an<j
this is on the question of the leaders of the UDF and connections - and I put it, connections with the ANC.
So on page
7 .. --Maybe if counsel can indicate what volume it is.
COURT:
Volume U. -- I have got it here, I am sorry.
MR JACOBS:
Now, on
page
7 in
the
last
column,
the
fifth
column .. -- Are ue looking at "U23"?
Have you got it? -- I have
got
it. idhat page
*• I
looking for?
Page/.. .
are
ue
-
8=3.60
Page
7.
The
1** 598
last
-
MQLEFE
paragraph
under
the
heading,
the
article with the heading "Turf meeting on Handela goes Ahead
despite Ban", before the next heading, I think it is paragrapn
6, starting with
page 7?
Oupa Monareng,
On top there
On page 7 - ha\/e you got
is a photo of a group of people.
The one with the lettering on .the left, "United
:
•
!
-
—
Democratic
Front", on tDp.
Ko,
I do not see that- --
meet on SAD Ban"?
Is it
the
one
°UDF
Unions
Yes, I have got it.
ASSESSOR (MR KRUGEL):
There is a photo of Mrs Winnie Mandela
1
and Aubrey Mokoena. -- I have got it.
MR
JACOBS:
Ban".
Yes,
"Meeting
Have you got that?
on
Mandela
It is in
goes
the
ahead
last
despite
column,
the
heading? -- I see that.
Now, that paragraph, just before the next small heading,
there the paragraph starts "Dupa Monareng".
•Oupa
Monareng,
President
of
5OYC0,
people know who their leaders are.
leaders
who
are
not
imprisoned,
I will read it:
said
that
tne
It was the duty of
bound
or
dEtained
to
~c
tell people what these leaders stand for, he said."
-- I see that.
[NDLJ,
Mr Molefe, I put it to you that this is a clear
reference to the leaders- of the ANC as well as the leaders
inside South Africa
in the DDF? -- I da not know.
well be , but he does not
may well be leaders, same
limit his speech
of
them who
It may
to the ANC.
have
nothing
with the ANC. It may well of course include people
It
to do
like Mr
Nelson Manoela, but I da not know. I was not at that meeting.
Is
it
correct
that
you
do
identify
Mandela
as
the
leader Df the ANC and also as the true leader of the UDF7 —
Not/...
•
863.63
Nat
of
the
LJDF.
I made
MOLEFE
599
-
that
position
very
clear
in oy
evidence in chief and in the course of this cross-examination
many times.
Mr Molefe, is it correct that Mandela stands for certain
ideals,
and
what
they
stand
leaders have got ideals
would have a clear
for-
Is
that they
ideal
it
correct?
strive
for.
that he stands
-- Uleli,
Mr
Mandela
for. He is a non-
racial democratic South African.
'And also
to
achieve
that
by
way
of violence?
mean he has adopted particular methods?
--
You
Violence really is
not an ideal.
And that he is standing for a free and democratic South
Africa, as you say, and to achieve that by way of violence?
- - D e l i , he had adopted that.
And
that
is
generally
uauia not say everybody
known?
--
knows that.
I
know
that,
but
I
Ail people are really
concerned about is the idea that that man really strove for.
I nsve made too
many
historical
references, but
these are the kind of things that people
talk
about
ideals,
but
roetnods that are adopted
course of my evidence
mace Dy ds - I think
they
may
you
know,
talk about.
They
differ
tD realise
in
those
I had referred
terms
of
ideals.
to a speech
the
In the
that
was
- Neveling, who was also a member of
the National Party in the Transvaal, in an address, a meeting
I think of the branch of the Nationalist Party, somewhere in
the Cape, I think Wellington in the Cape, and he had been a
msn who had been very
he hac been really
close really
attending
to Mr Jopie Fourie, ana
to him and
I think he
is the
man mho saw him even at the last moment when he died, and in
l 4
addressing
that
meeting
he
is reported
to
have
they/...
said
that
jSf
863.8
-
^7^
they
igg*
purporting
;. •
that ue had come together really to declare our commitment
as Afrikaners
U
600 -
had come
HOLEFE
together
- I am not really
to quote him verbatim, but all he uas saying,
i ,-
p .
to state
jr.'
Jopie s t r u g g l e d and d i e d , and h e s a w t h a t
['
of A f r i k a n e r
!"-•
argued
>
'. "'
that we remain committed
self-determination.
that e v e r y t h i n g
correct,
that
the A f r i k a n e r
- I believe
that
that Mr Jopie
ideal
dence,
further;
that
that
he
ideal is
ideal
was
see t h a t ,
and he
for n a t i o n h o o d .
serve
He even
as the f o u n d a t i o n , o n e of the f o u n d a t i o n
he h i m s e l f
Fourie
of Afrikaner
should
to s t r i v e
N o w , I am not saying
w a s not s u p p o r t i n g
had a d o p t e d ,
and he w a s c o m m i t t e d
really p e o p l e w h o are talking
and national
tD i t , and I would
about
that
the m e t h o d s
but he believed
self-determination
in
that
indepen-
understand
the ideals for which the
l e a d e r s , certain l e a d e r s , we do n o t k n o w exactly who he has
in m i n d , he may w e l l be h a v i n g
j-
went
of J o p i e Fourie would
stones of the N a t i o n a l i s t P a r t y .
'I
which
ideal as the ideal
against
saw it, the Afrikaner
saw h i m , h i s blood
^
for
wrong, and he says that is how Jopie F o u r i e saw it and that
to a w a k e n
•
ideals
to a d v a n c e
stood
strongly believed that t h e blood
'
the
He e v e n
that s t a n d s
and a n y t h i n g
is n o w they
1
to
was a m e e t i n g
of
Mr M a n d e l a
the R M C , the ideal
the African p e o p l e
in mind b e c a u s e it
being
of n o n -
racialism, where
;
will come
3'1-
share that kind of South A f r i c a , may w e l l be what the s p e a k e r
and vote
and other
that
\
together
in a single
South
racial
Africa,
had in m i n d , not the m e t h o d s that the m a n has c h o s e n .
wanted t h a t , he h i m s e l f would
L
groups
will .
If he
have left and joined those w h o
had a l r e a d y taken up a r m s .
; .
THE C D U R T A D J O U R N S .
THE CDURT R E 5 U M E 5 :
POPO SIMON HOLEFE, s t i l l under o a t h :
•
FURTHER/..,
654.02
FURTHER
P
i
. •;
v
j .
•j
-
14 S01
CROSS-EXAMINATION
-
MOLEFE
BY MR JACOBS:
Mr Molefe, do you
regard Mr Mandela as your true leader? --[That is so. in the
sense that he i3 a leader that amassed in the course of the
struggle against apartheid in the Black
in the sense that I get orders from him.
community,
but
not
i
-|"
And is he regarded in the leadership of the UDF as tfte
j
national office, as the true leader of the people? --
* .
is so in the sense that I have explained it.
•' \
That
-And also in the regions and in the affiliated organisations,? -- I cannot speak for every affiliate of the UDF, but
:
certainly fay very many people.
I would actually be surprises
if there would be anybody who would say he is not a leader,
:
•
because
even those who are participating
in homelands
have
consistently said thgt he was a leader.
Mr Molefe, and
propagate
be
the
of
the
yourself
people,
as
well
.
leader of the people? -- I would not say we propagate
that,
:
but as and when the need arose - I would not say that he has
»
been propagated as such, but from time to time wnen the nee=
arose, if a person in his speech decided to talk about
he would talk about him.
i
leader
you
trus
;
to
the UDF and
the
\
him
does
him,
It is not as if it is a program of
the UDF to go - to propagate that.
And is it correct that the UDF did go out of its way -
:
let me put it first, and it is well-known in the circles of
! |
the UDF, national, regional
- •
i's not
prepared
government
:
j
to
swear
and affiliates
off
violence
that fMr
in
Mandela
achieving
of the people? - - I do not know about that.
the
I
kncL; that he has said in the past that he is not a violent
man.
Mr Molefe, do you know about his statement being distributed
by the UDF
that
he
is
not
prepared
to swear
off
B6t.O6
-
Hi 602
-
HQLEFE
violence? -- Oh yes, I remember that statement.
more than just that.
It has got
I think it is en exhibit in this case,
possibly "C^I", one of the documents in "C<*1n.
And it uias made perfectly clear that he is not prepared
to smear off violence as a means .. (INTERVENTION)
COURT:
Let us first get the exhibit.
MR JACOBS:
I think it is " C M " ,
in Volume 3.
the second document.
It is
Mr Molefe, is it correct then that the UDF die
organise the big rally in order to make known this statement
of Mr Mandela
to the public at large? —
purpose of the rally.
That was not the
The rally was organised
to celebrate
the Nobel peace prize awarded to Bishop Tutu, and while the
preparations for that were on the way, we were asked by the
family to allow them to present this message.
And this message was then made known, that he
prepared to swear
—
off violence
I believe there is a section
on that meeting
is net
of the UDF?
that says so, but there is
also a section that says, I am not a violent man.
Hr Molefe, why dD you evade the question?
fically - whether
he was prepared
not? - - Well, I say so.
He is speci-
to swesr off violence or
I believe it is here in this message.
But tnat should be read in tne context of the whole statement.
Did you agree with
his
statement,
Mr
Molefe, that hs
must not swear off - to the effect that he is not willing tc
swear off violence? -- That is for him, not for me.
I have
chosen my own method.
Do you agree with that or not? -- I have got no control
on that, whether I agree or disagree, to me it does not make
any difference.
It is not a question of control. Do you agree with his
statement/.. .
865.Ok
-
1U 603
-
MDLEFE
statement to swear off violence or not to swear off violence?
—
I cannot decide for him.
[v.:
No, I ask you, what is your view on that? —
: :
say is that I can understand why the man is saying so.
All I can
j* *
!
"
COURT:
What portion of the statement are you referring to?
I
j
I am
asking
•
portion
you, Mr
Jacobs.
of a statement.
You refer the witness
I want you to put
to a
clearly
uhst
portion you are referring to.
j
i
MR JACOBS: . Then. I will read on page 3, the typed page, the
•^
last part of it:
:
"Only free men can negotiate.
Prisoners
cannot enter
j .
into contracts.
Herman Taiva Ya Toiva when freed never
! ,
gave any undertaking, nor was he called upon to do so.
My father says I cannot 2nd will not give up any undertaking at any time when I and you, the people, sre not
free.
Your freedom and mine cannot be separated.
I
will return."
• .
COURT:
The question is now?
j
. 'A
?
;
MR JACOBS:
He is not prepared to swear off violence, and my
question w2S then, dD you agree to that? Is that also your
sentiment? — Well, I have not opted for violence.
All I
i
can say is that in the context of what he has written hers,
I understand
»
undertaking.
'
COURT:
JUJhy?
why
he says he is not
How do you understand
prepared
it?
to make
any
I do not seem to
understand it, unless the statement is read, when I get out
of gaol I will continue the armed struggle.
Can you inter-
pret it in any other way? -- I think all I understand him ta
*"
be saying is that I will stay in gaol until you unban - mae
be me should read the statement.
Maybeopportunity/...
I should get the
MDLEFE
865.08
opportunity ..
I have read the statement.
Look at page 2. —
I under-
stand the men to be simply saying that when they decided to
adopt the methods, the violent method of struggle, they did
so because their organisation bias banned, they had no other
way t and he is saying, he seems to be saying that ue did so
because
saying
ue
wanted
to
end
if Mr P li) 3otha
apartheid.
makes
an
Now
he
undertaking
seems
that
to
he
dismantle apartheid, and he unbans the organisation
be
will
that we
operate lawfully, then I would be prepared to make an undertaking.
And
otherwise?
-- Otherwise
I am prepared
to stay
anc
die in gaol.
What does he say?
He says, I was a member of the ANC,
I will always be a member of the ANC, there is no difference
between the views of Oliver Tambo and myself, and we turnen
to the armed struggle for certain reasons.
to renounce violence.
I am not going
What else does this mean than that I
still stand by the armed struggle? -- It may well mean that,
but if ..
j^Now, if that is so, why is this sort of thing read at e
UDF meeting? -- Firstly, the man was a patron of
the
UDF,
and the issue on his release had become both a public matter,
i J
nationally
and internationally.
importance
to the UDF, to affiliated
and
internationally,
to
It was
get what
the
a matter
people
man
of
great
in the country
has
got
to
say
aoout what the other people had been saying, there nad been
a
lex
of
speculation
and
the
family
wanted
to
give
his
response to the matter, and we felt that as a patron of the
UDF ue should allow that opportunity to him, to exprsss his
views/...
865.10
-
1<» 605
-
HOLEFE
views. But also I think he makes it clear also in the other
page, that he is not a violent men.
W
.}'
I cannot see hou one can say you are not a violent man
-j ;
i '
if you opt far the armed struggle.
j
certain reasons for doing
*
arms you are a violent man, whether you like it or not? -- I
!
think
also
it must
be
It may be that you have
that, but the moment you take u?
understood
in
the way
himself at the time, when he was involved.
;
he
conducted
As I understand
it, he was not - he was very careful about loss of life, in
his participation he sought to target those buildings whicr.
were
merely
symbols
and
at
times
when
there
was
nobody
there, and I think that was the position.
i
;
Uas there a press
this statement by
Zinzi
statement
by
the
UOF
Mandela?
--
That
that
is so.
precede:
I think
there was.
Uhere
can one
find
that?
I read
it at some stage. I
think it was a press statement by accused
no 2D? —
No, it
was a press statement by myself.
Do you remember the number of that? -- I cannot remember
*
now.
MHR JACOBS:
Edele, ek mag miskien si, ons sal by sekere vsr.
t
hierdie persverklarings ook uitkom.
COURT:
If you are going to come to it, do not waste
looking for it.
I
!
MR 3ACDS5:
tins
I do not know if it is the same one, nut there
are some of the press statements that I am going to ..
Mr
before
Moiefe,
Mr
Mandela
aireaay organised
5
I would
made
like
his
to put
it
statement,
to
even
for a meeting to release
you
also
then
thai
the
LJDF
the statement of
Mr Mandela? -- UJhat I am saying
is that the meeting
- the
purpose
celebration
N
of
the
meeting
was
the
of
the
-
865.11
14 606
-
MDLEFE
peace prize awarded to Bishop Tutu and at that stage ue did
not knou anything about a statement coming from Mr Mandela.
It is something
that
came
to
our
attention
possibly
three
days or so before that meeting.
Linen did you hear the first
to be
I.:\ ., .
a statement
made
by
Mr
after he made the statement?
ment
was
going
to
be made
time that thers was going
Mandela?
Uas
it before or
Did you know that the stateby
Mr
Mandela? --
There
was 2
request that was made to me, I think it was on Friday before
that weekend,
I think
so, and we
had
long
advertised
thai
meeting, we had long prepared for that meeting.
Was that before or after Mr Mandela made his statement?
-- It was after - we had prepared before.
No,
I am not asking
you prepared.
That
request
that
this
that
was .. (INTERVENTION)
COURT:
I understood
had been advertised
Sunday
-
I think
family
requested
the witness
to
say
meetinc
long before, but the Friday before the
it was
a
Sunday
the witness or
-
of
somebody
this
msEting
else whether
the
they
could make a statement. -- Thet is what I am saying.
MR JACD55:
My question was, with respect, this statement of
Mr Kandela, was it already made by him when the request cante
to you to read it on the meeting or was it aftEr he made his
statement that the request came to you?
COURT:
Were you informed
of the contents of the statement
on Friday? -- I was.
MR JACOBS:
back
to page
You
see, then
1 of
Mr
I cannot
Mandela's
understand,
statement,
the
if
ycu
gc
second-last
paragraph:
"My
father
and
his
comrades
at
Pollsmoor
Frison
grateful/...
are
-
865.12
grateful
to
hesitation
the
made
H607
United
this
-
MOLEFE
Democratic
venue
Front
available
to
who
without
them
so that
they could 3peak to you today."
According
1
clear
to my
interpretation
that when Mr
Mandela
of
made
this, Mr
his
Molefe,
it
is
statement, he already
knew- that the LJDF was going to make his statement known?
Well, one might think so, but it must be understood
—
in the
context that the statement was really told by his daughter.
So she might have decided that after she had asked us and ws
agreed, that she must
include
those
things, thank
the
UDF
fDr that.
COURT:
Was this address a written address that she read ta
the assembled people? -- That is so.
Did you help her prepare it? -- Ho, 1 did not.
MR JACOBS:
Do you know who prepared it? -- I dD not know.
I believe she prepared it. She might have had people helping.
I dD not know.
Maybe she was helped by her mother.
Who came to ybu with that request an the Friday? -- My
recollection is that it was Mrs Mandela and her caugnter.
am not certain if it was
Friday
I
or Thursday, but some time
during that time.
Mr Molefe, I put it to you, to go back to this EXHIBIT
"Iil23" f
tD
finish
it
off
on
this
part, that
in
this
same
paper the ideals of Mandela was the violent overthrow of the
Government, and in this
there it is also clearly
same
document
stated
in the
first
column
and tnersis no doubt about
that, that once again the South African Government
is faces
with .. -- Are we going back to the "Un series?
Ue are still busy uiitn it. —
The statement?- Uhat ars
we dsling with?
At/. ..
-
865.16
COURT:
14 608
-
HOLEFE
At the moment we heard "CW1".
MR JACOBS:
I told
him that
Are you at "W"?
I am going
We have not finished with that one. —
t :
to ae
in
that
respect?
Counsel
to the °W23 B .
back
And what is being put
has
said
something
about
violence.
I put it to you that the idenficiation with Mandela and
the other true leaders of the people is a clear link-up with
the ANC and
there
is no
doubt
whatsoever,
and
it is aisc
propagated like that, that he an ANC leader. -- It is not an
association
with
the
ANC.
It is true
that
leader, that is reported today and every
on radios, TV's
they
the
that
proposition
day
talk about that, and
accepting
the
he is an
ANC
in newspapers,
I do not
ideals,
accept
accepting
the
method that "a" person haz accepted.
And I would like to refer you to the last part of that
samE column, that also it is important
affiliates
Island
and
of the
ides
UDF tD propagsge the fact that ex-Robben
people were
bringing
of
about
people
for the UDF and the
in
prominent
2nd
the
conflict
in
the activities
forming
with
of
the
of the
UDF
organisations,
the
laws
being used for that purpose? -- Where
of
the
country
is mention of Robber.
Island?
I would
like
to refer
you
to
the
last
paragraph
on
that:
"Released
from
the
island,
last
year
Mazibuko
joined
the Detainees's Aid Movement".
COURT:
I am sorry, I have lost you.
MR jACOBE:
The last paragraph
on the first column en page
7. -- We are dealing with a' different meeting
now, a dif-
ferent subject.
This/...
865.1=
-
COURT:
COURT:
-
HOLEFE
This Is a different article.
MR J A C O B S :
V .
{w. i
j;--'j
i '
r'-j
U 609
But it on the same page.
Then
when
you deal with
us to the h e a d i n g
a different
of the article S D that
article,
refer
somebody w h o reacs
t h i s l a t e r w i l l be able to pick it u p .
[i
|,: |
MR JACOBS:
p*&
referring
{•
and t h e last p a r t , I w i l l read it o u t :
•'-•
The
heading
of
y o u to is saying
"Later
that
year
that
article, Mr
"Ex-Islander
he and some
mourned
classmates
!
and charged
under the S a b o t a g e A c t .
\^
island
year,
Mazibuko
/
Movement
uas
involved
\
last
Soueto
and
Youth
sociation.
mourners
Congress
and
H"is_ coffin
representing
jcmea
in
the
uas
by
Many",
were
aetainea
Released
from tne
formation
Temoisa
carried
of
*i a
tne
Residents ' As-
from
the
hall
organisations,
unions and Free Mandela Committee
I am
tne D e t a i n e e s '
the
student
Molefe,
ay
trace
ar\n the United Demo-
cratic Front."
5o I put it to you, Mr Molefe, that it is also important :D
aluaya
bring
the
message
that
peapis
who
were
active
in
violence to the Government, had a part in cresting organisations that are affiliated
to the UDF. -- Who is propagating
tnat?
I say
it is propagated
in this article? -- Newspapers
have uritten aDout that.
LJhat do you say to what I put to you?
COURT:
Is .this report factually
correct?--
Uiell ?
I k-nc^j
certain facts, ethers I do not know.
idhicn .facts are correct/? -- 1 knou that he .isa Deen on
Sobcsn
Isiano, but I do not knou
conviction, and
tne
I know that he was
circumstances
a memDer
of nis
of Detainees'
Ai•/...
365.19
610
MOLEFE
-
Aid Movement, which was an affiliate of the UDF, and
that he participated
in
the
initial
formation,
I know
discussions
leaoing to the formation of the Soueto Youth Congress.
I was not at this funeral.
But
I do not know about the rest of
the things.
And
the
Temdisa
Residents'
Association?
--
I do
not
know what role he played in that respect.
The Ternc-isa Residents' Association, is that affiliate;;
to UDF? -- It is not, it was not an affiliate of the UDF.
The TemDisa Civic Association, do you know whether that
is? -- It uias not an affiliate of the. UDF to my knowledge.
But counsel has put to me something that it has been propagated,
and
I am
asking
the question,
who
is
propagating?
5urely newspaper people, if tney attended a funeral or something, they have got to report on what is happening there.
[Mr Molefe, I put it to you that tnis newspaper
active supporter of -the UDF and
jJDF? —
it was an affiliate
is an .
of trie
I think SA5FU as an organisation had neen sn affiliate
at a particular point in time, but I thin* the newspaper W E E
a project, and I do not know who sat in the editorial committee of that organisation, and
I woulc
contenc
tnat
newspaper report facts, it does not report because
to propagate
anything
aDout
the
UDF. The
Ranc
c
when a
it wants
Daily
Mail
would have reported the same facts, so would The Sowetan if
they were there.
The UDF was not in control of this news-
paper, we did not control its eoitoriai
policy, neitner die
we sit in that editorial board.
Mr Moiefe, (M£_ Dadoo,.' was he regaraec as a leaner of the
people, Yusub Dadoo? -- Yes, he is highly rsspecten esDecialiyinthelndiancommunity.
•*
And/...
611
665.20
-
HOLEFE
'And__Bl9O In the circles of the UDF?
—
In the African communities
participated
very
Alexandra, I think
actively
In the leadership?
as well, he is known
during
it was around
the
pass
to have
boycotts
in
1957 or so, he is known tc
have been very active there.
Dn page 12 there is an article on "Dadoo's Spirit lives
On" and you yesterday
said 4you do not know whether
part of - what he was 'In the Communist
in tne third column.
Party.
he
ue =
Tnere it is
The heaaing of this article is "Dadoo's
Spirit lives On". -- Is it on the next page?
It is on page 12.
Mr Molefe, the numoer of the page is
behind - an top you will find 5ASPU National in small letters
and directly behind it is a number. -- I have not heard what
page me are moving to.
Fage 12. -- Thank you, I have got it.
In
the
middle
column
at
the
bottom
with
a
capitci
letter black A:
o
JiiL the time of his death
YUEUD
Dadoo was
chairperson
of the Communist Party of South Africa."
Is tnat a correct
statement
of
fact?
--
Well,
I have
dicated my knowledge at the time. I die- not know.
in-
I cannc.
dispute nor confirm that.
And I put it to you, in this article he is also hailez
and propagated as a true leader
of the people, ana I wouis
jus- read one paragraph to you: -- Lihich paragraph is that?
Under
mic-le
nis
photograph,
column, but just
pnotDcrapn,
tne
starting
one
starting
under
the
"F\ID matter what steps". Have you
also
line
got
in
the
unaer
his
it?
-- I
have not got it.
Can I show it to you, indicate
to you wnere it is? -Uncer/. ..
14612
865.22
MOLEFE
-
Under his photograph there is a small picture on the
hand
side
of
that
photograph,
below
that
right-
photograph,
then
there is another one slightly on the - on the left-hand side
of that photograph, then
there
is another
the right-hand side of that column.
At
the
top
of
the
first
one
slightly
on
UJhere are we reading?
small
photograph.
--
Yes, I
found the place.
•No matter what steps the South African Government
to
deny
Dadoa
the
banning
of
fitting
tribute.
marks
the meeting
The
The
banning
respect
was ' seen
banning
meeting was no surprise.
leader.
of
of
by
of
internally,
the
our
TIC
to
DadDO
still
fears
the
be a
memorai
After all, Dadoo was a national
the
meeting
is
in
itself
fitting tribute to the man since it indicated
Government
tack
this
great
son
of
a
that
the
Africa
in
spite of his death and his 23 years in exile."
So I put
it to yDu that
this also is
a linking-up
of
the
Soutn African Communist Party and the leaders of that party
to the freedom struggle ana also to UDF ana its
affiliates?
-- I do not see it that way. This man had been the president '
of the Transvaal Indian Congress.
He had been the president
of the South African Innian Congress, ana for many
participated
in
that
organisation.
Surely
years he
when
such
2
person dies, those who had worked with him in that organisation or that organisation
him
and
I think
they
are
itself
more
has
the
right
concerned
about
to
remember
the
ideals
they strove for at the time, more than any other thing, ths
connections he might have had later on.
COURT:
Could I just get clarity?
this South African Indian Congress-
I have not got clarity on
There was an anti-Scutn '
African/...
613
B65.2<*
-
HOLEFE
African Indian Congress. -- Council.
Oh, it Is not Congress, it is Council? —
It is also SAIC? —
Yes.
That is so.
And the later one was also SAIC? —
The South
African
That is so, and then the South
African
Indian Congress was ..
Was it SAIC? —
Indian Council.
Idas also SAIC? -- That is so.
MR JACOBS:
Mr Molefe, I would
EXHIBIT "1/7" on page 26.
like
to refer
you
also
to
Have you got it? -- I have got the
transcript.
That was at the Krish Rabula commemoration at St Michaels
Church in Durban, and Mr N.J Naidoo started speaking on page
22, and on page 26 he said this, and I start to read next to
the number 220 on the left-hano side of the page:
"But I want to make one thing very clear: my
objection
to defending this country, I would like to be the firsperson to say that I am loyal to my country.
I want to
be patriotic until death to my country, but that patriotism
is
for
my
country,
Africa, • ana I want
not
for
to ssy very
White
clearly
racist
Soutn '*
that there are
people who are fighting against the country, not because
they are terrorists, because they feel they are fighting
a patriotic
this
country
front of
ana
this
that
is
country
the
for
the
freeaom
difference-
You
of
havs
people who are fighting against people uno are on ths
other side of the ooraer, but I want to say that those
who are on the other
side of
the
for the freedom of this country.
. ,our
freedom,
and
you
have
got
border
are
fighting
"Ql^Y .a're fighting for ,•
to
make
that
wnether/...
choice, ^
614
865.28
whether you ere going
asking
the
laus
of
-
MOLEFE
to fight
the
for the people who are
country
and
to
preserve
racist system in this country, to keep the Black
the
people
oppressed, or whether you are going to fight for
those
people who are fighting for freedom and justice."
And I put it to you, Mr Molefe f that what is said here and
the message brought
to the people at this meeting
is quite
clear that there is a clear link-up again with the ANC.
Just a moment.
How can you hold this witness respon-
sible for what one N J Naidoo says at a Krish Rabuia meeting?
How is the UDF involved?
MR JACOBS:
H D W is he involved?
Mr Krish Rabuia, is he in the executive
of the
UDF? -- I do not know that person. He is not.
And in the Natal region of the UDF? -- No.
ASSESSOR
(MR KRUGEL):
Is this a commemoration
service
for
Mr Krish Rabula? -- It seems like that.
MR JACDS5:
And Mr N J frleiooo, do you know from which or-
ganisation he is? -- I believe he is a member
Indian
Congress, although
I do
not
know
what
cf the
Nets!
position' he
holds.
And the Natal
UDF? —
Indian
Congress
is
an
affiliate
Df
the
That is so.
And I put it to you that
that is a perception
in the
UDF and the affiliates of the UDF ano that there is a link-us
with the ANC? -- He does not speak for the UDF.
his perception, and
I"would not say
his
That may be
perception
is
the
perception of the affiliates of the UDF.
Do you agree, in this portion that I have read to you,
tnat
there
reference
is
to
a
the
clear
people
link-up
with
fighting
the
for
people,
your
anc
freedom
across/. . .
tns
from
665.30
-
across
the border
1<»
is a
make that assumption.
615
~
HQLEFE
reference
There
to
the
are many
that, you have got the ANC, you have
:
;- ',
:
] •
-\
'
:
ANC?
—
I cannot
people who are doing
got
the PAC, you have
got what started as a youth organisation after the events, of
1976, which I said was the South African Youth Revolutionary
Council.
So I" do not know what he had in mind, but if I an:
asked to try and interpret what the man is saying, all he is
saying
is that the choice
that must be made
is whether
ta
oppose apartheid or to join the proposed chambers for ColourA
'
;
eds
and
Indians.
I do
not
understand
it
necessarily
tO
mean, you either join the Government or you go and join the
ANC or the PAC.
whether
to
I understand
support
the
it
simply
Government
to
be
the
choice
proposals
or
to
reject
to
you
that.
Mr
Molefe,
then
I would
like
refer
to
press
statements that I told the Court about, the press statements,
I
am
hoping
the
one
the
Court
amongst them, EXHIBIT " A G V .
A
I
UDF
offices
statement,
in
statement
referring
to
might
be
This document was found in the
JohannesDurg.
press
is
Mr
on
Molefe,
PW
I will
Botha's
read
the
parliamentary
address:
"We have doubts as to the practicality of the condition
that
has
been
set.
Mandela
is
known
views on apartheid and his very deep
for
his
strong
commitment
to the
i
;
program of the ANC.
of
the
Mandela
entire
. .
:
nature.
should
the
A
pledge
distance
political
this cannot
Ide cannot see him making a pledge
unconditional
himself
struggle
receive
like
to
of
frcm
date.
acceptability
release
this
one
the
ANC
In
from
political
would
our
and
his
judgment
the man.
prisoners
the/...
that
Only
ana
616
865.31
the
dismantling
of
-
MOLEFE
apartheid
structures
will
bring
about stability and lasting peace in this country."
Is it correct that this press statement - do you know about
this press statement, Mr Holefe? -- I uas not there yhen it
was drafted, but I think I read it.
COURT:
Was it issued? —
MR 3ACQB5:
it uas
agree
even
I think it bias, it uas issued.
And I put it to you, according to this statement
to
the
UDF
unacceptable
to non-violence? •- I thought
that
he
Mr
Mandela
said
from
must
the man,
acceptable from the man.
I think no 20 has been with him on
Robben
he
Island,
I
think
is
basing
this
assessment
on
knowledge of the person.
And is it so that this uas a UDF press release and no:
a personal press release of accused
no 20? —
so, Dut
clear.
that section makes
it very
judgment this cannot receive acceptability
he had
already
alluded
to
the
strong
Yes, that is
He seys in our
from the man, ana
views
the man
holds
against apartheid, and his deep commitment to the program of
the ANC.
'COURT: __But nou, why precede what Mr Mandela himself can say
about
this
Hancela?
--
issue?
tile 11,
Uhy
it
appoint
the
happens.
UDF
as
spokesman
Newspapers,
when
tc
things
happen, they phone you and they say, what is your comment on
this?
I think it is the circumstances in which no 20 fauna
himself.
'Jhen one says, we have got nothing to do with Mr Mandela
he is a great man but we have got nothing to do with him an-:
we cannot say anything
about
this;
it
is
for
him
to say.
Why appoint yourself spokesman for _him? -- I do not think he
was. trying to become a spokesman.
I think he was giving his
own/...
-
865.33
own assessment,
14 617
the way
-
he knows
release must be related
MOLEFE
the
man.
to the question
At
least
that
of the dismantling
of apartheid, because in any event the man is in gaol because
of his opposition to the apartheid policies.
'X-would
have
understood
this
press
statement
had
it
been - of course we say that Mr Mandela must accept that condition
laid
down
by
the
State
President,
then
frse to join the UDF ana t2ke up his rightful
non-violent
struggle,
because
that
is
he will be
place in the
your
stance?
--
I
think he was - the man had made it clear that he would not M
leave his organisation.
had heard.
It seems he is talking from what he
I was not there when the statement was drafted.
Qne can only surmise, try to interpret.
WR JACOBS:
But the main point, Mr Molefe, is that this was
conveyed to the world at large as the standpoint of the UDF,
as a press statement from the UDF? -- Well, as the view of
the official spokesman of the UDF, yes.
It is not the stand-
point of the UDF that he will not - it is the views, opinion
maae,
expressed,
based
on
the
assessment
of
a
person
who
incidentally had had the opportunity of meeting the man.
Ana
that
is not
said
in
the
statement,
opinion of a man who haa met Mr Mandela.
that
is
the
That is not the
clear message to the people? -- Well, that is so, but what
counsel is putting to me is clearly not what
the paragraph that he is arguing.
is written in
He is really
interpreting
that paragraph.
I did not interpret it.
I only stated to you that this
was a message sent out officially
(the message received
from the UDF, and that was
by the public at large as an official
'UDF message? -- That is so.
I am not disputing that.
But/...
865.38
COURT:
-
14 618
-
But now, you told me you had made a press statement.
Where is your press statement?
—
HOLEFE
q
Mine if
MR JACOBS:
Is it also in this bundle?
AG5".
Now, "AG5", is that also an official UDF national
statement? -- That is correct.
Press statement, and it uas published and a message to
the public and the people at large? -- That is so.
And I see there is an official - it is on an official
!
UDF letterhead paper? -- That is correct.
-''A
r
N O W , UDF press release on Mandela's responses to Presi-
•
j "
j :
*
! .
dent Botha's offer, 9 February 1985.
This is referring to
which offer of Mr Botha?
Of President Botha? — I dD not
understand the question.
I
j
|
Which
offer
of
President
Botha
are
you
referring
to
here? -- The offer of release provided he renounces violence,
I think.
\
one.
I do not kncu other conditions.
I remember that
There might have been other conditions.
I'
i
"The South African Government has made an offer to the
f
|
M
public and its international
I think
the other
condition
.."
}
--
uas
that
provided
he
was
•
presered to go to T'ranskei, yes, he uas prepared to accept
I
citizenship of Transkei.
•The South African Government has made an offer to the
J
;
public
:
and
the
international
community
to
release
Nelson Mandela and his comrades under certain conditions
j
\
Even before
Mandela's
response
to
this
offer
can
be
communicated to our people, we need to state that until
yesterday
•I|
i
\ s-'•;
afternoon
President
Botha
had
not
had
the
courtesy personally.
to communicateIn this
to the
Mandela
his
comrades
this offer
context
of/...
sole and
source
-
865.39
1U 619
-
MOLEFE
of hia information had been the newspapers.
it is clear that the Government
From
this
is still not prepared
to accept the fact that 'Mandela and his comrades represervt_the aspirations
fact
that
the
opportunity
and
the • will of
Government
to
respond
has
has
not
given
locally and internationally
our
people.
given
Mandela
rise
to
The
the
speculation
as to haw he will
respond.
Because of this speculation Mandela and his comrades at
Pollsmoor
have
found
it
necessary
and
imperative
to
respond immediately and to put an end to all speculation,
Mandela has therefore requested
communicated
munity
to our people
at the Jubelane
stage we can divulge
communicating
but
will
make
with the South
greatly
and
this response
be
international
com-
tomorrow.
this
At
that Mr Mandela will not only be
known
African
privileged
the
amphitheatre
his response
also
that
and
to President
his
Botha's offer,
position
Government.
honoured
on
negotiation
We of the UDF are
that
Mr
Mandela
has
chosen our platform to make this announcement."
Mr Molefe, you said this is a press statement issued by you?
-- That is correct.
fit this time when
you
made
this
press
statement,
did
you have Mr Mandela's reply in your possession? -- No, I did
nor
1i
have
it, but
I had
been
informed
about
tne
contents
thereof.
By whom? -- By Mrs Mandela.
And which part were you informed of?
thct he is not prepared to swear
sura.
Is tnat the part
off violence? -- I am not
It might well have been part of it, but also that he
believes
that before
he is asked
to do anything, apartheid
must/...
665.41
must
be
dismantled,
14 620
that
-
there must
MDLEFE
be
an
undertaking
to
that effect.
' .
Mr Molefe, did you knou at this stage that Mandela was
I
1
' .
'i
release? -- I think I knew.
'
:
-t
not prepared to swear off violence uhen you made this press
On what date did you make this press release? -- It was
«
i
1
an Saturday, just
the day
before - the meeting uas
on
the
i
i
10th, the statement w a s made on Saturday.
-:
Np_w, _Mr Molefe, if UDF is such a non-violent organisat-
", ^
; ion, why did they not refuse to bring
J
ANC leader
Mandela
is refusing
\ •
il
lilell, ue believe that
the message that the
to swear
off violence? --
the matter was of such public imper-
tance that a man who is a patron of the UDF must be heard to
be making his own response.
The matter was - everybody uas
interested in that, the international community and everybody,
not
:
because
they wanted
they
wanted
to support
uhether
to opt for violence or n o t , but it uas simply
that kind of important matter.
•
the position,
I may also indicate that by
the way, before we were asked to allow for this statement to
I
be read, we were strongly accused for the statement made by
;
accused
!
Mandela uas going to abandon his beliefs and the organisation
, .
to which he had been
no 2 0 , that
he
had actually
speculated
committed, had been
a member
were called by Mrs Mandela and she complained
• '
very
that Mr
o f . hie
strongly
about the comment we had made in the press, and it was one
of the reasons why it was necessary for us to allow them to
present their awn v i e w s .
Mr Malefe, I put is to you, it was also important for
I
the UDF to bring across to the people that this is the true
\ •
leader accepted by UDF and accepted by the
people, and that
the/...
B65.3
-
I** 621
-
HOLEFE
the LJDF is bringing the message of this true leader to the
people? -- Ide regard Mr Mandela
that
uias the
consideration.
but
trie did
I
mould
;
because we were approached.
\ I
of the meeting, and this statement indicates clearly that it
that
It was not part of the program
•
; f
H
1
!
say
leader,
;;•
!
not
as a true
is a matter that came at the eleventh hour.
'
Now, at the same time, Mr Molefe, why did you not make
•
'
• •
—
it also clear in the same press
release, why
did you no:
.. make it clear at the same time that although Mr Mandela has
A
certain
reservations
about
the
President's
offer
to
him,
-;
that UDF is still not a violent organisation? -- Ule had made
,
that statement, such statements many times in the past.
;
did not see the need to make it that time. We did not an-
LJe
ticipate that anybody would accuse us of violence.
Ulhy did you not reject at the same time the stand taken
by Mr Mandela, of not swearing off violence? -- No, ue did
not
consider
that our duty.
choose a method for himself.
M
-. ' { P
I think
he
had
a right
ts
LJe had chosen ours.
r Molefe, were you present
on that meeting where it
t
was announced? -- Yes, I was present.
Now, why
did you not bring
over
meeting that you are not accepting
the message on that
Mr Mandela's stance or
that you are rejecting his stance and that you are standing
for peace in this country? -- Our position was well-known.
This meeting took place in 19B5.
The UDF had been in exis-
tence since 1583. It was a well-known position.
Ue did naz
see the need to do that.
But Mr Molefe, the message was brought clearly that you
were
renoucing
this leader of yours, that is at the same
time the leader of the ANC, the person who is saying in that
message/...
^6
-
14 622
-
MDLEFE
message of his, I am still in the ANC, I will never go out
of the ANC and I mill never swear off violence?
not set off your
] '
•;
stance
at that meeting and
Ulhy did you
to bring the
people under the clear understanding of your stance? -- Wo,
our stance was very clear.
It was made clear many times at
I
several meetings.
i
Soweto.
i
It was well-known. It may well be that seme of the speakers
might
Some of those meetings had taken place in
It uas well-known.
have spoken
about
It was reported in newspapers.
that.
It is just
that
I canno:
remember.
:
MR BIZD5:
M'Lord, My Learned Friend says that the statement
;
says, I will never foreswear violence. That is not what the
i
1
statement says.
;
MR JACOBS:
It is a conditional rejection of an offer.
Never foreswear violence as long as the Govern-
ment - let us put it then, dees not agree - as long as that
:
is not a government of the people in power.
•
MR BIZQ5:
WITNESS:
A
I
It dnes not say that either, M'Lord.
In fact that is really our interpretation of the
statement.
What really comes out clearly is where he says,
I am not a violent man.
That is one statement that he makes
•i
•
very clear.
These others are just our own interpretation of
the fact that he says he holds the sane views as Mr Tambn
and he remains a member of the APJC, therefore those people
present understood it to mean that he is committed to violence
f
{ .
and so on.
•
MR JfiCDBS:
:
and Mr Tambo is committed to violence? -- I believe it is.
Is it generally known, Mr Molefe, that the AWC
Dhy dn you say that you dn not hold the same views as
j t
:>
\
\ '
Mr Tembo, although Mr Mandela held the same views? —
no: understand the question.
Why/. ..
I dn
£p
.
B65.i»9
-
1** 623
-
HOLEFE
Why did you not at the meeting say that you do not hold
sj.-
the same views as Mr Tambo, although Mr Handel a said he held
the same vieus? -- Idell, in our community it was understooc
J
'•
"•]"-:
thai
ue were
a
non-violent
organisation.
In any event,
insofar as a non-racial democratic 5outh Africa is concerned,
I " •
that apartheid must go, that all people must get a vote in
j •
;
this
country,
that
our
country
1
horcelands, that we should
must
not
not be given
be
divided
into
puppet bodies like
the Slack Local Authorities, the Coloured Management Commit^
;
'
tees and so on are concerned, if the view of the ANC is that A
these
are unaccaptabie,
those are the vieus
that
ue hold
i *
too, but insofar as they have adopted violence as a strategy,
j .
there is that difference. It cannot be imputed that those -
;
I had read in the newspapers that the FCI before they drafted
the charter, their charter, they
had
gone
to discuss trie*
chcr:sr with the ANC and they had reported that their chartsV
is
suCstantiaily
the
same
as
the
Freedom
Charter,
One
cannot assume that because they had done that, they are the
"' A
serr.e as the ANC.
!
COURT:
FCI stands for Federation? -- Federated Chamber cf h
Industries.
MR JACDS5:
SPURT:
;
Mr Molefe, then on page - on the same M AG5 n ..
Is that correct, did the Federated Chamber of Indus-
tries go and discuss their charter uith the ANC?
\
I would
-have thought Prof Uiechers knous quite a bit about charters,
i
i -;
he uaes not need the advice from the ANC. —
That is uhat I
i
reac.
It may well be that they uiers wrongly reported.
I co
noi know.
X
;
i"
MR JAC3B5:
again:
Mr Moiefe, I will first read the third paraorspn
"In/...
1
.
665.50
-
1<* 62<*
-
HOLEFE
"In this context the sole source of his information has
gj:;
been the neuspapers.
•u
Government
is still
From this it is clear that the
not prepared
to accept
the fact
!
that Mandela and his comrades represent the aspirations
!
and the will of our people."
i
i
Is that a correct statement made by you in this? -- That is
•
correct.
]
Mandela, and then I put it to you, in this pare g rap r,
you are also linking up the UDF as a statement made by you
^
here, with
suppose
;
the Af\tC in that Mandela
that refers
to Mr
.. —
and his comrades
- 1
Sisulu, Mr Mlangeni, Mr
Mtshosledi, Mr Mbeki, those who were with on Rabben Island.
•
And Mr Tambo? -- Well, we had in mind those who were on
Robben Island.
And his comrades also must include Mr Tambc as well? -That is not uhat was intended to convey.
UJe were dealing
specifically with the situation at Fnllsmoor.
,
\
COURT:
A
Does it not refer to Polismoor?
MR JACOBS:
Yes, but comrades is in the general sense being
used here. -- It was in the context of the situation, the
political prisoners at Polismoar and Robben Island.
And if they represent the aspirations and will of our
people, then it is also the will af the people and the asj
pirations of the people to have the overthrow of this Govern-
i ;
* f
ment
by means
of violence?
--
The will
of
the
penpla
ta
i
]
struggle tD end apartheid, and in the course of that people
cheese different methods.
And I put it to you, by violent means? -- It is not
i .
different from the point I was making this morning, uhere a
\ ;
minister
of religion
says Jopie Fourie represented
remain/...
- "we"
865.52
-
14
62 5
-
MQLEFE
remain committed to the ideals for which Jopie Fourie struggled and died, that
being
the Afrikaner
That minister was not saying
to go and fight.
self-determination.
that he wants to take up arms
He is not saying that.
All he is saying
is that it is that ideal for which, the ideal that all of us
hold
there,
the
ideal
that
all
of
us
are
striving
for,
because that is the only ideal that can give us a sense of
dianity as a people, and that is the ideal which ones realised
will ensure justice for all the people in the country.
Mr Molefe, this adherence to violence in this statement
of Mr Mandela, is that against the policy of the UDF? -- The
UDF
is
not
decide
a violent
policies for
organisation,
but
other organisations
the
UDF
which are
does
not
not
part
of the UDF.
Is
that
against
the
policy
..
--
For
revolutionary
organisations.
Is that against the policy of the UDF? -- It is not in
line with the policy of the UDF to use violence.
And why did you
propagating
not
then
have
violence, rejected
Mr
Mandela, if
and scrapped
he U S E
as a patron
of
the UDF? -- He has not called on memoers of the UDF to adopt
violence, and he was elected in recognition of his contribution and it was not - we did not choose him, he was chosen by
ordinary
people
people
that
from
Nelson
organiss tians •
Mandela
is
not
Uho
their
are
we
to
leader?
If
tell
the
perception of the South African Government and the Afrikaner
people is that Nelson Mandela
the perception in our
our
people
their
that
communities.
a man
leader, when
is not a leader, that is not
they
who
has
ide cannot
sacrificed
regard him as
to
their
go and
much
leader.
might/...
is
tell
not
They
3 IP
865.5<f
night
not accept
14 S26
the methods
-
HQLEFE
that he had
adopted,
cannot tell them that he is not their leader.
but we
The
people
who have supported apartheid do not find it easy to say sc
themselves.
EDURT: Could it not
be said by the public that more
'half your patrons being
the armed
uith
in Robben
struggle
in
terms
the statement
by
Mr
people look at it.
their
homes,
--
That
statement
is not
read
how
the
The people are more concerned about the ^
fact that he was striving
I spoke
press
tc
They da not consider the methods that s
person was using.
chief
Island, still adhere
of your
Mandela?
than
about
how
elderly
to free us.
people
talk
In my evidence . in
about
people, but they
never
Mr
Mandela
say
to
in
their
children, go and join the ANC or Mkonto ue Sizue which was
formed
by Mandela,
liberation.
because
if you do that, that will
get
They say, the Government must release Mr Mandel=
so that ye can talk about our freedom.
MR JACOBS:
'It was possible for the National Executive of
the UDF and with
the
assistance
of the regional
executives, to scrap Mr Mandela as a patron
people
in Robben
councils,
and the other ^
Island, the other patrons still on Robben
Island that subscribe to violence as patrons of the UDF? -It might well
have
been
possible, but ue might well
have
existed as a skeleton of an organisation, because we would
not be able
to
tell
people
that Mr Mandela
is not
leader and hope that they would remain in the UDF.
their
Those
organisations would go away, all of them.
I think it is the
same
Nationalist
found
situation, M'Lord,
itself.
I have
that really
the
alluded briefly
to this
kind
Party
of =
situation, where there had been a challenge to the Nationalist
Party/...
J
865.56
- "Hi 627
']
Party
'$ri~
Party was supporting the rebellion.
;
-
COURT:
there
{
ordinary
'
of
the
against
in
the
HOLEFE
accusations
that
membership
respect
British
of
of
those
the
party,
who
-
net part of that rebellion.
tne
were
Empire, was such that
people uho were their leaders, though they
A
Nationalist
people
*
Party found it difficult
the
That is so, and because of the
ordinary
Afrikaners
rebelling
'I •!:
been
Y D U mean in 191<*? —
perception
;
had
.
those
themselves
were
The leadership in the Nationalist
to condemn
that. They
could
only
say, no, we are not involved in that kind of a thing, but ue
understand
that those people are part of us, they
are our
j
flesh
blood,
are
i
involved in that.
•
situation that we have in this country, that whilst organisat-
and
but
we,
the
Nationalist
Party
not
So that I think really it is a similar
ions would not accept the methods that Mr Mandela adoptee,
\
they are not in a position to say he is just a piece of
|
rubbish,heisnothing.
MR JACGBS:
M
Mr Molefe, will you go to EXHI3IT "AG12", that
is a pamphlet issued by the Transvaal indian Congress, and
i
i
this is also about Mr Yusub Dadoo? -- Thai is so.
Mr Molefe, I put it to you that
Congress
- it was found
with
the Transvaal
a person
named
Yusub
Indian
Daooo
also.
COURT:
With wham was it found, Yusub Dadoo?
i .
MR JACOBS:
Uiith a person, I suppose it is his son, also a
:
person by the name of Yusub Dadoo.
Is it correct, in Krucers-
riorp?
MR 5IZD5:
j
\
•
,
M'Lord, Your Lordship will no doubt remember the
case of DADDD v KRUGERSDDRP
MUNICIPALITY
in
1922.
suppose the Dadoo's had multiplied since that.
That/...
So I
i
S65.60
-
COURT:
>
MR
1^628
-
MDLEFE
That Dadoa in 1922, uas that the Yusub Oedoo?
3IZ05:
No,
I believe
he
might
have
father or an uncle or something like that.
MR
•
3ACDB5:
I put it to you
been
either
the
I do not know.
that accoding
to this,
it is
said here that:
.
"He fought for our freedom, he died our leader .."
ancj ue have got a portrait of a freedom fighter, and on the
next
page,
"Tribute
ta
the
People' s Leader"
and
that I have referred you to, and I put it to you
in the TIC, an affiliate of UDF, it is also
this
leader
-
and
they
associate
him
-
this
thatfeven
accepted
they
themselves with the 5ACP, the South African
all
that
associated
Communist
Par~y
and they accept that he uas their leader. -- I disagree wi tn
counsel,
and
in
fact
what
is
written
therefore, belou "Portrait of a Freedom
to the contrary.
on
the
page
Fighter", testifies
It has got nothing on the
Communist Party, unless
front
South
African
I cannot read properly here, but 1
cannot see anything on the South African Communist Party.
A
;
This Mr Dadoo, uas he - I do not understand your ansuer.
Uas
he
not
the
president
or
the
secretary
African Communist Party? -- I do net know.
of
the
South
All I am saying
is that- the intention uas not tD project him as a Communist
leader
and
to
get
people
to support
xhe
Communist
Party.
They are looking at the record of a man and they are talking
_
about all these things that ordinarly people in the country
would know about, and if it mas any - they had the intention
to promote the South African Communisi Party, I believe they
would have had it here in big letters also.
UE have cot no
evidence that in any of the meetings which were held, he was
I
'
5
praised as a leader of the Communisx Party.
;'
m
865.62
-
14 629
-
MOLEFE
Mr Molefe, I put it to you that he uas the leader in
|fe'
the South African
\
t.
Communist Party, and it is hailed by the
TIC that he fought for freedom, that he died as their leader,
,
, .
that clear association with - I put
African
Communist
Party, and
it
is
it to you, the
a
tribute
and
South
he
was
•i
;
regarded
as the people's leader, the same as Mandela,
and
others?
the
--
I do not
j
differ with counsel.
J
have come across to people.
|
A
accept
that
Tamoo
proposition.
I
What is in this pamphlet is what would
What does that mean?
The pamphlet
I do not
J '
COURT:
|
pamphlet.
| '
honour of Isi Tshwalande? -- I do not know how ta explain it
What
in English.
is clear.
understand.
does
n
Isi
I understand
It is no use debating
Tshwalande"
mean?
Uhat
the
is
it as a word, as it is set
the
out
here, given to the people ..
Does Isi Tshwalande
refer
to a place or does it refer
ta a particular type of honour? -- I think - I do not know ;
I think
it means
> S
tiger or leopard.
J •
animals, M'Lord. Very often
"
i
tiger and which one is a leopsre.
'
that
animal, and
traditionally
;
in
the
carrier
or the
wearer
I have GDt a problem,
I do not
of - I think
I dD not know
knew which
one
those
is a
It is really -he skin of
than
it is - when
the
African
for
tradition,
bravery,
people
I think
who
are
brave.
j;
* ',
It probably goes back to a Zulu regiment or something.
j
-- That is so, they would give it to a man who has shown to
\
be brave, maybe, a brave soldier.
I
THE CGURT ADJOURNS.
THE COURT RESUMES AT U h O O :
POPO SIMON MDLEFE, still under oath:
\ ;
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JACOBS:
Mr
like/...
Molefe, I would
666.03
'f
like
to
refer
you
to
1<* 630
EXHIBIT
-
HOLEFE
«AG1B n ,
still
in
the
same
fj-
bundle that we had before, and this is a sticker, it seems
.]
to me, under the logo of Transvaal
Indian Congress and the
-7
UDF.
}
It was issued by TIC.
Do you agree? -- I have a dif-
ficulty, mine is so black, I c3nnot see.
I see mine is also loose, I suppose it came loose and
1
it uent off.
COURT:
It is not a very good sticker if it comes loose.
*
MR J A C Q S S :
]
uncer the logo's of UDF and
- -^
I put it to you, do you agree, it is a sticker
the
Transvaal
Indian
Congress
issued by the Transvaal Indian Congress? -- That is so.
V
And I put it- to you that the message that the people in
j
the street will get from this is that UDF and thE
Transvaal
I
Indian Congress, both Df them regard the people, the poiiticaj
prisoners in gaol as our leaders, "Release our Leaders fdowD?
—
Ha, no, those whc were detained..
';
not
*
was issued and the time at which it was.
:
•
» •
understand
the circumstances
I think
under
which
counsel
that
does
sticker
That sticker was -
that call was made during the period when most of
the
UDF
and TIC - a number of TIC, NIC and UDF leaders were detainee"
t .
in *!95tt.
They were detainee on 21 August 156t, snd
those
calls were made at that time, subsequently after tnat, ana
it was intended to address specifically
the issue of those
pecc-ie who were detained at that time in terms of Section 2£
of the Internal Security Act.
And I put it to you, it can also be understood by the
person in the street, because that is also what the UDF is
always
claiming,
specifically
that
to release our
to those
the leaders
of
people
those
and
leaders? -it
was
organisations
That rsfarrec-
public
were
knowledge
detained
that/..,
at
866-06
-
14 631
-
MOLEfE
that time,
§&£,
Uill
you
go
to
EXHIBIT
document in the handwriting
"AG20".
Mr
of accused
writing looks like his, but I cannot
Molefe,
no 20? —
testify
is
this
The hand-
that it is in
fact his.
i
1
COURT:
;
That is no 20? —
Yes.
You can take it for granted that it was written
and/or
j '
compiled by accused no 2D? -- Alright, that is what I admit.
I '
MR JACOBS:
I
of this document:
A
1
Now, I would like to refer you to the first page
"For us whD shoulder
free, non-racial and democratic
:
significant
family
of the1 struggle
the burden
unit
is
5outh
the
for a
Africa, the most
extended
family
of
fellow freeom fighters."
Just to get so far, Mr Molefe, I put it to you that in the
UDF you also regard yourselves as freedom
I
fighters? -- That
is so .
*
And then there is in the second paragraph, there is a
< ^P
name, this is I S U P P O S E , at a funeral cr something about s
k
]
cErtain Bertie.
tfdho is Bertia?
Do you know? -- I think he
(
was connected to the UDF Western Cape.
i
I us not know this specific organisation to which he belongen.
I am not quite sure.
I had not met him personally.
.j •
Do you know
5 ;
his
surname?
--
I think
surname
was
Consalves.
\
Now, it seems in the next paragraph:
. .
n
He lived for the ideal of a South Africa that will be
free, non-racial ano democratic.
Yes, a 5outh Africa
1
•\
his
•,
'
in which the people shall govern."
> -1
And we get the phrase "the people shall govern" again here,
Mr/...
&
;
-
^
866.OB
-
U 632
Mr Molefe, is that correct? «
pp-
-
MOLEFE
Yes, that is so.
And it is also according to the beliefs and policy
Well, we believe that all the people of
of
;.1
the UDF? —
South
\A
Africa must participate in the government of the day, of the
/!
country.
^j
to the extent that really means that, I have no problem with
'.| /
that, but the phrase as
I cannot elevate this specific phrase to that, but
such, I cannot remember the UDF
Af
j
adopting it as a phrase, but it is really, I think, synonomous
to the call for a government based on the will of the people,
A
the majority of the people, Black and Unite,
• .
And that is also in accordance with the Freedom Charter,
I .
a call for the people shall govern? —
; .
phrase in the Freedom Charter.
t/
Yes, there is such a
And the last paragraph I want to read there, the lasi
sentence; it seems to me as if there stands:
j.
"There can be no turning back on the demanding task we
..] \
"
set ourselves uith Bertie, Brian, Ben Pa 1msr,
Mxenge,
3iko, Msizi Dube, Hello Moena, Tiro and others.11
•
% ^B
j w
Now, Mr Moiefa, can you tall us, who is Bertie? -- I do not
'! '
knou much about him.
:
connected in some uay uith the UDF Western Cape.
All I can say is that I think he was
He might
have been a member of one of the affiliates.
',
And Brian? -- I dD not know which Brian he had in mind
j
here.
'| '
viously in that report of SASPU National.
-\
M
U23 B .
It may well be the Brian we were talking about preI think
Iamnotsure.
Brian Mazibuko? -- It may well be that one.
** •
know what he had in mind.
I
—
i
•
it was
I do not
Hehewas
ex-member
of the
ANC. Brian
Is itwas
correct
or net?
r»o,
is an
a child.
Brian
I think,
possibly
- 3
very/...
866.10
very
-
young
fellow,
14 633
maybe
about
-
HDLEFE
- I do
not
think
at
is
Brian
Mazibuko
stage he uas even 2k years old, if that
j
that ue are talking about. He is a youngster.
\'
)
i
•
-
•
And Ben Palmer? -- I do not know who Bsn Palmer is.
:
?
'" -,
•
that
And
Mxenge?
—
I
do
not
-
I think
that
is
Mxenge.
i
Mxenge
'
uas
an
attorney
unknown people.
,
in
Natal,
he
uas
assassinated
by
I think that happened in 1981.
Uas he a member of the AFJC? -- I believe he had been a
j
meraber of the AfJC when it uas lawful.
; ^
I see there is a sketch on him and a history of him in
I •
J
" AG21".
Is that the same person? -- I assume he was refer-
i
j
ring to- this person.
This is the Mxenge
I know.
His wife
<f
t
was also assassinated.
She was a member of the executive of
the UDF in Natal. She was assassinated, I think, in 1985 cr
so, whilst I was in detention.
And
he
uas
also
an
ex-Robben
Island
prisoner?
--
I
believe he was.
•
;
(And Msizi Dube? -- Msizi Dube was a member of - he was
A
j
a councillor
. opposed
to
particular
in Lamontviile.
the
point
rent
increases
Reports have
which
it
were
that
proposed
in time in Lamontviile, and
he was
at
subsequent
a
to
i
i
that
he was
assassinated,
and
I think
certain
councillors
i
j
were implicated, I think one of them was Gatha or so, one of
them uas convicted, I think imprisoned, sentenced to gaol
j s
ror ten years,
I
t
\
*
And was he a member of the AfJC? -- I do net know if he
was a member of the Af*C.
'j
And.. Seiio Moeng?. -- I da not know that one.
|
Now, the last paragraph an that is:
•
i; '
taught
"The greatest
us now toachievement
live fighting
of lives."
Bertie's
is --!/...
that he has
866.11
£j
-
-!*» 634
-
MOLEFE
I think counsel has skipped the name of Mr Biko
|j
and I see the other name is Tiro.
~j
vi
-j
| ;
saw that,
*'-'
Do you
know? -- Yes, he was the foundermember of the Black Conscious
ness Movement.
*
I do not knou if counsel
(Mr Biko, was he a member of any organisation?
•
there,
I think he is really a chief
theoretician.
He had also been the honorary president of the Black People's
Convention and he is the man who died
in detention
during
1577, I think in'September.
*
•
I
Uas hs a member of SASO, a founder member of SA5D?
—
That is correct.
T
j
j
An_d 5ASD is a banned orgnisation? -- Yes, it was Danned
in 1977.
And Mr Tiro? -- He had been a student at the University
Df Turfloop and I think he was suspended around 1972 or so.
He left the coun/try, he went into exile and he was killed by
3 pares! bomb whilst in Botswana.
:
I
Ana when he left the country, did he join the AfJC? -- I
I A
hsve got no information to that effect. I think he actually
\
died shortly after he had left the country.
i
\
;
)
Before he left, was he a member of any organisation? -As I understand
it
he
had
been
a member
of
the
student
}
!
!
j I
R e p r e s e n t a t i v e C o u n c i l at that u n i v e r s i t y .
I think he w a s
And 5ASQ? -- I do not know if he was a member of SA£D.
actually the p r e s i d e n t or chairman of that 5tudent R e p r e s e n And AZA50? — No, we are talking about 1972. AZAEQ is
tative Council at the University of T u r f l o o p .
an organisation that was formed in, I think 1560 or so,
1979, 198D.
So it was not there at the time.
, the last paragraph, I will read it now:
"The/...
366.13
-
1«i 635
-
HQLEFE
•The greatest achievement of Bertie's is that he taught
us how to live
United
fighting
Democratic
Front
lives
and
I must
on
behalf
insist
that
of
the
whatever
ueaknesses he may have had, our activists old and young
must seek out those strong points which enabled him to
survive.
The deprivations of the ghetto life and a six
year prison sentence on Robben
•'
'
Island and still emerge
a freedom fighter in his awn right."
Mr Moisfe, I put it to you, in the contsnts, in the whole cf
j ^
this there is a clear association by accused nc 20 between rc
the
UDF and
the
freedom -fiohters
of the ANC
as well?
—
i
•*]
Where is the ANC here?
]
to?
!
UJhat section
is counsel
I am referring to the whols of this document and what I
read out to ycu. -- Where is the AfJC?
!
the ANC among those names mentioned?
i
!
|
!
*
referring
Una is a member of
And on what basis ..
Did you not say that Mr Mxsnge was a member of the AfJC?
— He had bEsn, but maybe
Isave it at that.
W
- I Disagree
with
counsel.
I
•
j
.Moid, I would like to rafer you to EXHIBIT "AG23" •
i
SEE
I
rsquest interview with Oliver Tamba", and it is signed
'
Mcharned, 3/9/53.
I
MoiEfE? -- I da not know.
'•
!
COURT:
;
MR JACOBS:
•
This rsfsrs to Mr OlivEr Tambo and him bsing interviewsc- by
j
i
•
that is a statement to the City P T E S S ,
"Cliff
I a
Saundars
I J
Do you know about this press rslEass, f'r
liihat is the admission in respsct of this document?
the South
liks
I think
African
it wss found at rrof
i-Iohamed's
3raedc = st'ing Ccrporetion.
IJCLJ,
placa.
I uouln
to rsan the middlE there, the words:
"Publish all thES2 many spEsches ofvsncuarti/...
the Isacer of the
*
.
366,17
-
1^ 636
-
MOLEFE
*
— —
ii
<:
vanguard movement of our country, if ue are to believe
j4.-_
the intended
interview
with
Tambo
on 5A3C is nothing
more than furthering the interests of the ruling class. 0
I put it to you that - let me ask you this: do you regard
the ANC as the vanguard movement of our country? -- I do net
j
1
i
•
regard it as such. If that means it is the oldest movement
in the country, yes, I do.
If it means something else, no.
Uhat do you understand by the vanguard movement? -- I
I
think it means that is in the front of the struggle.
It nicy
i
•
well mean that it is the oldest.
i
And I put it to you, in this press statement Mr MohamEd
I
also indicated that there is a link-up between the ATJC and
i
*
the organisations, other organisations
in the struggle for-
freed am,
the leader
and the ATJC is regarded
as
and the
vanguard of thE struggle? -- May I just read thai paragraph?
:
My position
•
oldest of the organisatians or the movements in the country,
1
yes.
\ <^P
can say is that the man is not a public relations officer cf
j
thE
UDF.
I
is that
if hE means
I have act no difficulty
by
that
the; it is thE
with that statement.
All I
i
He was a public relations - of what uas he - was he tha
head of which organisation? -- He was the chairman of the
j
: •
«
Anti-PC Committee.
And that is affiliated to the UDF? -- That is so.
It
remains an inaependEnt organisation.
I put it to you, hE is slso a person in the executive
\
of the UDF? —
CDUF.T:
That is so.
In the National Executive?
MR JACDEE:
He was also on the relational Executive and on the
Transvaal/...
%
*
366.19
Transvaal
cutive.
Executive?
-
14 637
-
--
No, he
HQLEFE
was
on
Transvaal
Exe-
That matter has been a matter of dispute previously.
The correct position was that he was
the
the
Transvaal
Executive
and
on
one
actually
or
twD
a raember of
occasions
when
people were - the Transvaal representatives on the NEC were
in detention, it appears in the minutes that he wss asked to
sit on the TJEC.
And I put it to you, according
it is accepted
^
arc
the
movement
by Prof Mo h am e d that
vanguard
in our
of
the
country
freedom
and
That is what the statement
!
to this press statement
the
the Af-J C is t n e leader
struggle,
leading
says.
That
the
vanguard
organisation.
is if
this
is his
statement.
I would
found
like to
in the UDF
refer
offices
you
also
Khotso
to
House
"AG2 5".
and
it
This was
is a letter
signed by yourself and accused no 20? -- That is sc.
And this is a letter written
to Mr and Mrs Curtis and
family? -- That is so.
A
LJho are they, Mr Molefe? -- They were the parents of they are the parents of the deceased Jeanette.
5
*
{
Jeanette Schoon?
It rr.ay well be.
f
But
About
death
a party
were
you
to
the
writing
writing
here?
of
--
this
Yss,
this letter on the basis that she was a daughter
j
letter.
I wrote
of
these
pecpZe and she had died, and I was asked by those pecplE whc
had bssn members of f.'USAS who had known her, they
ta D U : office
i
—
X personally did not knou her.
you were
whose
Uhat was - was it Jeanetts Schoon?
and asked
concciance to the-family.
n2i
^ came
us if ue could write a messacE of
I think
accused no 2Q had known
i
about her.
I did not know her.
i signed it on the basis
that/. ..
B6S.21
-
1<* 638
-
HOLEFE
that I was asked by members of NUSAS, I believe also members
V
of JORDAN who had known her during her lifetime. I understand
.1 •
-
she had previously been a member of NUSAS also.
.
Are you earnest
in saying
that
you
do
not
know
whc
.k
\
Jeanette is, what her
surname
was, which
i
may well have been Schoon or whatever it is.
Jeanette? -- She
i
•
Did you find out? -- No, I did not.
I will read it then:
"On
^
behalf
of
the
UDF
and
freedom
fighters
of
our
country everywhere we send you our deepest sympathy at
the I D S S Df your daughter and little child."
:
rjoui, Mr Molefe, the freedom fighters of our country every-
!
uhers, I put it to you that the* includes the freedom fighters
of the AfJC as well? -- Ueli, I did not think of the APJC ct
that time.
In fact the draft was done by no 2D.
I read it
and I found nothing wrong with it and I signed it.
*
I di :
not scrutinise each word as to whether it ecu Id be meaning
the FAC or the Ar.'C or AZAPQ or anybody, but I understDDd it
1
^fc
really to mean that those who were opposed tq apartheid, w r. c
understands that the parson died in circumstances where s'r.e
left the country because of the policies of apartheid.
^ T:__ Does the UDF then represent all freedom fighters?
Not really.
I think
accused no 2D.
heve
them,
Dften
just
a manner
of writing iy
These things do happen when one writes.
written
scrutinise
it is
things
each
which,
sentence,
if
somebody
I might
—
not
was
be
I
to
see
able
zn
explain everything.
I-1R j A CDS 5:
1 thought you said that the iilUSAS pecple came zz
you and asked you ta write this letter? -- They
there were both
of us when they
came
draft, he did the writino. snd I signed.
in, and
asked us,
he
did
the
BS6.23
-
1*» S39
-
MOLEFE
Idere you present when he did the writing and the draft?
—
Yes,
I was
with
him
in
the
there, helping him to write.
office,
but
I did
not
sit
He wrote it and he asked me tc
read it and asked me if I U B S satisfied with it, and then Z
signed, I was satisfied.
liiho gave him information? -- klho?
Who
gave
the information
specifically who came to the
that
it
was
seme
members
to him? -- I cannot remember
office
that day, but I recall
of
JORDAC
to
you
and
WU5AS,
fJUSAS, I
think.
l"Jaw, the
abcut
out
a person
under
anything
what
like
people
came
who was killed
--
and
Well,
newspapers about that, if my
asked
and you
circumstances
that?
and
she
were
recollection
beer, reports in the newspapers-
to
did not try
where
there
you
was
writs
to find
killed
reports
in
cr
the
- yss, there hsi
1 think S H E died
somewhere
in Angola, if I remember well, cr msybe - I think it was in
AnGOIs or Botswana.
Lin ere was it, in the offices of any organisation? -- I
think in a house.
Uhose house? -- I do not
know, her house, I think
it
U E £ her house.
Idas it not said that in ANC houses or a house
of AiJC?
-- No, I cannot remember the AMC mentioned.
Uhy then, if somebody dies in a house in Angola, you CD
not
know
anything,
then
fl = " = rs?
--
This
ac-ive
the
fJationai
in
is
connect
an
it
important
Union
of
up
with
person.
the
She
been
had
be =n
5tucients, iJUSAE, national
Union of South African Students, and as I understand
hac either previously
frsEcc-m
detained
or banned
was/...
it she
also, and i~
865.25
-
1*» 640
-
HOLEFE
uas because of, as X understood it, because of police harrassjv";
ment that she left the country.
known
the
remember
person
before.
from what
But as 1 say,
This is the
I uas told.
little
Clearly
I had
that
not
I can
TJLJ5AS, memoers of
NUSAS and those who had been in JDRDAC were people who had
•
known her very well.
;
Mr Molefe, then I understand it still less.
If she was
i
j
! •
a person in NUSAS, they are literate people, they could have
written a letter on their own, by themselves. Why must they
j
;
_
\
W
!
\
come to you? —
I believe they did, they wanted
the UDF to
support them also.
I believe they did, as NUEAS. I think
\
this
matter.
':
involved in organisations die, normally people come together
i
is a political
LJhen a person
uho
to share, to mourn with those directly concerned.
had
been
These ar=
the things that normally happen.
Mr Molefe, is it your evidence now that you O D not knou
that she uas a member of the AfJC when she left the country
end joined the AfJC? -- I do not know.
i -^k
I
I personally
dD net
knou if she UIBS a member of the AfJC.
i
Go on :
}
"Thet oeath of any person sluays cones ss a loss to the
1
!
family involved, but of a frsedom fighter like Jeanetta
|
is one that extends far beyond the nucleate (?) family,
Black,
Unite,
Indian,
Coloured.
South
Africans
are
j •
!
cast in a gloom and seething anger at the perpetrators
I *
of her assassination."
Mow, Mr Molefe, if she was only a mender of f-JUSAS, she left
the country, uhy uas it then necessary to still - hou do you
J
stillwas
she
knouassassinated?
that she uas -a freedom
iJe were fighter
concerned
concernec/..
at that
aboutstage
- I uihen
UES
^ .
866.26
-
1^ S41
-
MOLEFE
concerned about her past, her role, and I believed
^r...
opposition
exile.
;
to
apartheid
did
not
stop
because
•
she
LJhen in 1961 Mr Mxenge uas assassinated,
know - I only kneu that he uas an attorney
that her
uas
in
I did not
and he had prs-
viously been a member of the ANC uhen it uas lawful, but you
knou,
a meeting
service
uas
called
and
ue
in Soueto, and ue honoured
uent
to
that
memorial
him, ue remembered
him.
It is not something neu and done specially far this person.
;'
•
These are the things that happen in our communities.
^
And I would like to resd the Dtner paragraph as well:
"-eanette may be buried far au2y from her homeland, but
i
seme
day
•
take her rightful place side by side uith ether national
heroes
ue
and
shall
bring
generations
her
of
bones
our
back
and
country's
she
people
will
will
forever be grateful to her for her selfless sacrifice."
Now, Mr Molsfs, I put it tc you
:you kneu
she uas
a member of
in the first
the
AfJC uhen
instance that
you
wrote
this
letter? -- I disagree.
A
\
Mou,
who
are
the
other
heroes
whose
bonES
will
be
brought back? -- Mxenge for instance.
COURT:
;
<UJher.e. is he buried, Mxenge? -- I think it U2S some-
where - I think it is a place near King LJiiiiem's Town.
So then he is not outside the country?
people
outside
the
country?
--
No,
but
This deals with
I
think
this
is
saying, we uill bring back her banes and she will take hEr
i
rightful
People
place
side
like Mr cika
by
and
side
with
others
who
ether
died
national
heroes.
in circumstances,
uhc hod been kneun to have been opponents of the policies of
l
|
apartheid.
'
MR JACGB5:
Mr Molefe, DadDo I believe is buried in London?
f
<
— I/--.
866.30
-
H» 6^2
-
HOLEFE
-- I believe s o .
Dill his bones be brought back to South Africa? —
not know.
It may well be that when
that
I dc
time cones, the
family might decide that they uani to fetch
the bones and
rebury him here in South Africa.
And Hotane, will his bones be brought back? -- I do not
,
know-
That is~ not a matter really that would be decided by
j
me.
I
micht have considered doina that.
Possibly
if it uas my uifs, my son or my brother, I
t
•*
t £
I put it to you that it is - this letter also is a
\
clear link-up between the UDF and the AfJC? -- I disagree.
j
Mr Molefe, I would like to refer you to EXHIBIT
•
"LJ4^n,
that is in Volume S.
i
COURT:
tdhat is the admission in respect of this document?
MR JACOBS:
It Lias found with T Letsoenyo in Tamshole-
Mr
Molefe, this is the UDF We us of the Transvaei region. -- I
believe it is.
I
frc-m the whole - uhe second-last pane, that is E H
T-JDW,
i
j ^
interpretation,
translation
of_ons
of
the parts
'.
uriztsn in a Black languege. -- The handwritten une?
that
i=
fJo, this is the typed one.
"The sentences are finished.
That is the heading of it.
{ I
\
that.
There are three uards an tap of
Have you gat it in front af you?
i
, '
COURT:
* •
Mr Jacobs?
I
am a f r a i d
MR JACOBS:
j
I i
'•
Let them be released."
I
have n o t .
What are you r e f e r r i n g
to,
EXHIBIT "LJ44", the last tuio pages. -- The type::
pages?
Yes, the typed
Halsfe,
what
is
the
pages.
meaning
Can you tell
of
the
the Court, ;•*-
words
"Ziphelile",
866.32
-
•Izigwebo",
it but
14 6*3
"Abakhululue"..
it
is
standing
-
HOLEFE
I do not know how to pronounce
there. —
I think
it
is
correctly
translated in the underlined English version below that Zulu
version.
Is that a Zulu version of "The sentences are
finished,
let them be released"? -- That is so.
H 1 Lord, whilst we are dealing with translations,
MR BIZD5:
I was
Your
informed
Lordship
during
wanted
the adjournment
translated
provide, it is really
and
that
Mr
tr.e word
Molefa
could
thct
nc;
- the nearest ue can get to it is s
feathered cap.
COURT:
A sort of a headdress?
f-'R BIZD5:
A headdress which shows - the Zulu .. (INDISTINCT)
MR JACOBS:
I put it to you, Mr Molsfe, that in the second
paragraph, and I will read it first:
"(Amongst
those
Government
Mandela,
and
imprisoned
its
Eisulu,
laws
Mbeki,
for
are
standing
UDF
hopes,
nathrada,
against
the
people
lik =
Goldberg
and
others who were invclved in the trial of Rivonia-
all
Th=
12 of them, those are the hops of the UDF."
And
this
message
sent
out
together
article, Mr Molefe, is, I out
istween
the
UDF
and
the
it
with
the
rest
of
tj you, a cl = = r
AfJC leaders?
pEDpie who are patrons of the UDF.
--
tie 11,
this
linK-uz
thess
ars
I would quickly like tc
read the Zulu version and see if the ward "hope" is correctly
translated.
COURT:
Idhat page is that?
It is the second page of the paper, of the UDF u'eus.
en the right-hand side. -- I think it is ccrrsct, but I hav=
a limited
knowledge
of Zulu myself.
I do not know, cut I
think it may well be correctly translated.
If/...
.jj£ * .
866.6
.
If
the
translation
U 6kU
is
-
correct,
HOLEFE
what
does
this
mean
i,. : % ;
actually? —
:
UDF call for a national convention and the release of politi-
I think, understanding it in the context of the
i
cal leaders, it simply means that if they sre released and
; i
we have a national convention, we will have an end
' •
policies of apartheid and have a new constitution nenotiatec1.
>:'
I have
I.
not seen
it before.
i hsve
not
to the
read . this
thing
before, but that is hou Iwculd understa-nd it.
ASSESSOR
^
(MR KRUGEL):
Da
you
know,
Mr
become of Mr Goldberg? -- I do not know.
Molefe, what
has
I think he left
the country.
,'
He has been released? —
Goldberg?
Yes? -- Yes.
COURT:
Did he not give an undertaking not to participate in
violence and left for Israel? -- Yes, I read about that.
la
he also mentioned here?Yes, his name is here. -- I do not knew when he was
released, but possibly - maybe it was before he was released.
It msy well be that the writers of this might have forgotten
about that when they wrote it.
MR BIZ05:
I- may say also, M'Lard, that he was not involve;:
in the Rivonia trial.
COURT:
Uhat was the number?
MR BIZ05:
The dock was half the size, it was actually 10,
M'Lord.
MR JACOBS:
Mr Molefe, then I would like to refer you also
to EXHIBIT
"U65",
that
is in
Volume
11.
National Students Newsletter and it was found
no 16, that was the admission.
the fourth
page.
The heading
This
is
AZASO
with accusen
I would like to refer you to
is "Save the ANG Six". It
starts/. • •
866.40
-
1«i S^5
-
MDLEFE
starts:
"The
campaign
to
save
the
lives
of
the
six
freed oo
fighters sentenced to death is gaining momentum."
And then the names of the six are mentioned here, the secone
paragraph:
Simon
Mogoerane,
23,
David
Moise,
27,
Mosaloli, 25, Thabo Motaung, 27, Johannes Shabangu,
Anthony
TsotsDbe,
27,
were
all
sentenced
to
Jerry
25 and
d E 31 h
after
lengthy trials in 1531 and 1352.
"Amongst the charges they faced are treason, attacks on
police stations, Government
charge
of
undergoing
buildings and all face
military
training
Tanzania and East Germany, and lastly
in
the
Angola,
of being
members
of the banned ANC. "
Nou, then they go on in the next column, the last paragraph:
"Another
speaker
at
the
same meeting
said,
the
dest-
sentence of Solomon Mahlangu and the six will remain in
the minds of the people, and so mill Solomon's words as
he stood before the gallows: 'My blood will nourish the
trsE that would bear the fruits of freedom1."
Mr Kolefe, 1 put it to you, in this document, in this article
there
is an attempt or what it has actually
done, to
make
excuses for the six AfJC terrorists end tney are also deplete::
as the heroes of the people, anti_ by that it is also a clear
U
link-up
of. the
between
UDF? —
the ANC and at least this affiliate, AZAS-j
Lie 11,
i do not
kr.au if they
are
regarding
then as heroes, but 1 think they are pleading far - maybe I
should read this thing, because
meeting
took
place after
not executed yet, and
of 2 plea for clemency
I do not know whether
these people -
I think
they
wer=
that meeting was really
part
or somethinn
•
I think
this
like
that.
know/. ..
I D D net
4
.
866U2
-
know about this meeting,
1<* Sk&
-
HOLEFE
I did not attend it,
I do not see
where it is said that they are heroes and so on.
But anyway,
these are the things that happen from time to time, people
do hold meetings, they write letters to the State President,
they appeal for clemency when people are convicted.
:
And Mr Molefe' .. -- And I do not understand it to mean
that those who did so wanted to recruit people for the AftC
i
or they wanted to adapt the methods of the AiJC and so on.
I
*
Mr Molefe, would you say, would you agree that in the
i
A
UDF,inthe
National
Executive, in the Regions! Executive
|
and also in the affiliates, is Mr Ternbo regarded 2s a leader
\
Df the people? -- That is so.
: '
And also as a leader of those people? -- Which people?
In the Executive, of both LJDF National and UDF Regional?
—
Not of the UDF, in the sense that 1 have explained it pre-
viously .
fiDid, I wc-uid like to refsr you in this rsgerc also, in
\
regard I D Mr Tambo to one place in "V25".
'
i
I •
W
i
A
is introduced hers at this msetinn
pace 21.
Mr Arcnis GuneoE
as the head of UDF zr>
Now, on page 25, would you regard Mr ^umede as =
c
i
\
spokesman for the UDF? -- LJeii, at this stage the UDF Nations!
was not formed, but he would have been regarded as a spokasman
for UDF Natal, but I may also say that he had at that stag =
I
really - I think
j '
;
a fair understanding
of the idea
Df the
UDF.
[At that stage, was it already decided who the National
Executive of the .UDF is going to be?
Haa you discussed thai
already? -- Not decided.
! ;
v
put discussed in committee? — No, I do not think a:
this stage it had already been discussed. I actually think •
•
\
that/...
"= % * ,
t
366.<*6
-
H 647
-
HOLEFE
that the matter uas discussed whilst he was auay,
f. •
this
about
meeting,
by
the meeting
others
who
had
of delegates
remained.
from
he uas at
I am
talking
various regions of tns
UDF uho'had met at the Jesu Centre in Johannesburg on 3C ana
31 July-
So that whilst
I think
he uas here at the 5DYCD
meeting, the discussions uere taking place in respect of the
proposed nominations.
i
You were also at ^hat meeting, is it correct? -- That
is so, I did attend this meeting.
^
• '
:
And uihD uas the chairman
of that
meeting?
--
I think
when I got there, the chairman uas Khehla Shubane.
N D U , Mr Molefe, he uas introduced
is head of the UDF as well.
-- 'Jell, yes, it is.
there as the head, he
Is that 2 urong statement here?
If by that counsel understands
it ta
mean UDF National, because UDF National uas not formed.
IVG
doubt he uas the head of the UDF Natal at that time.
It
is not
stated
here
that
he
is
only
head
of
UDF
Natal, but it is a reference to - I uili let it gc at that.
^
i
Nnu, an page 26, the second paragraph:
"Ol-i-v-e-r- Tambo, you sing abDut him.
uouid' do
more
than
AUDIENCE) (CLAPPING
sing
sbcut
Oh my, me wish
him
OF HANDE).
(LAUGHTER
OF
ycj
THE
The more and at leasi
if you join and go and recruit others and
conscientiss
others, you uili have dane somEthinc that may result in
; j
:
=
.
:
• .
one day the (voice of the African people in South Africa,
in
Soueta
first
rising
cannot ignore . (CLAPPING
'bring our leaders back.
j .
'- I
>
*.
convention
uhere
our
uith
a
roar
uhich
Pretoria
OF HATJDS) (INAUDIBLE) and
say,
Call a convention, a national
leaders
are
going
us."
Mr/...
to
speak
for
aSS.49
-
14 648
-
HDLEFE
Mr Molefe, I put it to you that what message is conveyed
J~£
is again that it is t.he ANC leaders who are
identified as
the true leaders, our leaders, the UDF leaders, and
the
true
convention
leaders
and
do
that
must
participate
the
speaking?
--
in
No
it is
the .national
doubt
that
those
leaders include people who are members of the Af\!C or leaders
of the ANC, but I understand that our leaders to be in the
context in which 1 have explained it previously.
And I put i't to you that what is referred to here as
^
our leaders are the leaders in the ATJC? -- 1 da not know if
.
exclusively so, but - in fact 1 do not
take
it that way,
t
because in the national convention that the UDF envisages,
i '
there would be various people elected from various ccnstituen-
'
cies to participate in that kind of a convention.
Thus it
wouln really be much more than Lhe leaders of the Af\!C.
j
I*
is true that th2y would B I S D be pert of that.
\
And
j
Mr
Molefe, what
is
the
meaning
or
what
do
you
understand under the wcrds:
|
'^k
u
. . and go out, recruit others and cnnscientise 'others,
youwillhaveaonesomething.. 1 1
I
i
ann that in relation with Mr Tambn? -it tn be in relation to that.
I do not understand
Mr Gumede
is addressing 2
meeting hers which launches a new organisation, the
j '.
Soweto
Youth Congress, and he is - I understand him to be saying
i
J !
] t
\
that they must recruit more members into that
organisation
••
j .
anc let aur voice - recruit them, recruit others and
4
scientise
\
result in one day the voice of the African people in Soutn
j .
Africa, in Soweto first, rising with a roar which Pretoria
J i
cannot
$ \
others, you
ignore.
And
will
I think
have
done
something
it is very
clear
that
conmay
that he is
saying/...
*S \ * .
I
866.50
-
14549
-
HOLEFE
^
saying, we must build a strong opposition, uie must build our
Sj.->
organisations to a point where the Government will hear us
')
when ue speak.
-.1
I
And the reference then: what
must
be
dene
more
than
singing about Mr Oliver Tambo? -- I think what he is saying
is that it is no use singing
about
him, let us build our
i
\
organisations, let us recruit people intD cur organisations,
j . •'
\
1st us strengthen our organisations. And in this instance I
understand it to be referring to the Soueto Youth Congress.
I
i
j ^w
And Mr Molefe, I put it to you that it is not only in
f
i\ '
speeches and in papers that the ANC leaders are popularised
I
uncer the people, but also in the songs and slogans, and I
\
i
mould like to refer you - I am not going to - if you will
accspt it, to the exhibits, but I will mention them to you,
the pages, and it is always the AfJC people, the A N C leaders
that are popularised
between the people, under
the people.
Gn n U1";on page £ in zhe last paragraph we find for instance
,
thcZ Oliver Tanbo is popularised? -- Liell, I do not knou if
^f
they sing about him.
!
Page_7, the name ofvlambo
is called
anc also that of DadOD
\
again Mandela, Sisulu, Mbeki, HhiaQe yhosa names uere callsa
•• "
3
out.
Dn page
times,
;
out.
is called
out seven
10 it is
LJho is Mr Mhlaaa? -- Raymond Mhleba, I believe.
He is
one of the Rivonia trialists.
•
j i
\
'
On pags '16A it is again Mandela uhD is hailed as "jjur
-Maniela",; on page
23 it is called
Oliver", referring to Oliver Tambc.
;
is E I S D
linked up uith
Oliver
say so.
It may well
be that
out, "Power
is
ours,
So "The power is aurs n
Tambo again. -- I would not
i
j I
} ^
j
}} \
•i
'
they
said
so as they
were
shouting the name, but it is net somethinglink/...
tha^ one can tie,
366.53
C
-
1** 650
-
HQLEFE
link, associate with a name of one person.
|
•
On
page rzs_. you
again
find
where
the
name
of /Oliver
]
Jamba is shouted out for 11 times, and again on pace 30 you
• -
find JLpower is ours, Oliver".
"i
the bush and training
that
the name
the soldiers"; page 31 you also find
of J o e
rock
is
Page 31, "^Oliver Tambo is in
Slovo
is
formidable",
popularised;
it
is
again
on
Mr
page
31£,
TambD;
page
j
"Tambo's
I
31F. 2gain Mr Tambc whose rock is formidable; page 60 again,
3
j
Oliver Tambo and Joe Slovo; on "1/2" page 52, Oliver Tambo is
\
called Dut; V"U3_M page 2, it is Tambo, "Mandela is our father":
page
3,
"tie are
following
TambD",
Oliver
Tambo
shouted
9
times; page 4, 'IMandela, Tambo, our father"; page 31, Oliver
Tarr.ba shouted
"Oliver
times;
out six
TambD"
page
shcutcd,
times; "U4" page 3, it is a slogan,
chanted;
3,
"Diivsr
"hie will
TamDa";
page
4,
follow
page
25
Oliver
Tambo
Tambo";
again
shouted
page
13,
Tsmbo
shsutsc out; .'v'V7" en page 4 it is shouted
Dut
three
ncluli, who
is
that
person?
]
think
:
diec whilst detained, I think
--
I da
not
slogan
times
J^Viva Dubs",
"Viva Sobukwe", "Viva Mdluli" snd "Viva Luthuli11.
J 'A
15
know
The narr.e
him,
but I
I hsd read in the past about a certain Mdluli whe hac '
it was in tarms of Ssction' 5
of the Terrorism Act.
And on page 6 again we get the shouting of "Viva Oliver
TambD", "Viva Nelson Mandela"; page 7 we have "Oliver Tambo,
t
;•
the soldier";
page
14 it is Kathrada
and (Xundu;_ page 15,
"TaniDD is in the bush training the s o l d i e r s " ; ; / "U5" on page z
it is again Mandela, Sisulu, Mbeki, and they must save our
-aun^ry; page 5 it is again Oliver Tamto two limes; " V I I "
\
'•
\:
} i
I '
< i
psce 2 , Oliver Tamba four times; and then also fJelson Mandela
is sneuted;
on pace
3 you net "Take my hand, don't
CO/'...
let it
J
* .
666.59
-
gD, Tambo 0 ; page
14 651
-
10, chanting
HQLEFE
Oliver
Tambo
24 times;
page
23, °7ake my hand, Tambo, do n't let it go"; pane 34, again
:
.••
• f.
n
the chanting of Oliver Tambo;
i
V13" pane 1, Mandela's name,
"-
;]
Rolihiahla
"•\
Mandeia,
3
is
shouted
Hathrada,
lf
nut;
5isulu
Vi4^
"are
' i
page
'"" " '
1C,
our leaders
Tambo,
Nelson
indeed";
par.e
~
~>
-i
\
13 A, again Oliver Tambo;
>'
l
l\LX5.n. paze 4, Tanbo and Slsvo
fathers"; psge 5, "Plsase lead us, Tembo, we came back
"cu
with
/
socialism"; page 13, "Held my hand, Tambo", "Ue uanz Mandela",
i
That was sung in thatmeeting.
1
^
i£V.1BAn page 2, "l/ive Tambo";
pace 3, TambD 20 times; page 9, "Viva Mandela", "Viva Kethrada'
.
page 14, chantinn Oliver TambD; pgae 39, Mandela; pane 48,
j-'""
j
"Mandela is the king today"; "V/1SA" pace 4, Oliver Tambo, 15
I
times
•
n
shouted;
page
6, Oliver
Tenbo,
24 times
shouted;
V195 B page 9, "Mandela is our father, Tambo is our father";
page * 3 , Dliver Tambo, tuo times;' J_U20" page 2, "Viva i ambo",
"Uiva Slovo"; page 12, ".Come Mandela": page 16, "Viva Mandela",
;
"Viva Sisulu"; page 56, "Oliver Tambo is my father";
" V23 n
i
- i
}
}
pace -5, Oliver Tambo; page 11, "Lie will follow our Mandela
^f
SVEH
:r uje are arrest2d"; page 22, "Mandeia our leader" anc
•
Oliver Tambo; page 31, "Our Mendela, we'll follow you"; pags J
i
32, C-liver
j
fjilcu you"; pags 3c, "Foruard Mandela, ue are going"; oga=
Tambo;
pane
34,
Oliver
Tambo, Hancela,
"Ue'll
i
35,
Oliver
Tambo,
i-'andela";
four
times
"V24" page
shouted;
1, Tambo's
page
j .
failau
name
j •
Mandela's name shouted out and NkDmo's name.
49,
"L'e uiil.
shouted
out,
I suppose thai:
i
.
musx 02 the leader of SiJAPO? -- I dD not knew if there is =
•;
person JJkomo.
:
CuUF.T: Joshua Nkomo? -- I tnink
i
I
ijj{ I•;'
]
the organisetian uas ZAF0,
but JAC055:
iz page
may well
be
TJkomo
South
Africa,
Dr is
/Jkomo.
"U25"
MR
2, On
Oliver
page
Tembo
25,in "Father
tsn times
Mandeia
shouted
out;
our father";
pace 3, -
866.63
-
1*652
-
MOLEFE
•lde'11 follow Mandela, Tambo and Luthuli"; page 28, Oliver
Tasoo
shouted
three
times;
"V26" page
39,
Oliver
Tambo
shouted three times; page 10 again, Mandela ..
COURT:
Page 10 is what?
MR JACOBS:
The name of Mandela, Rolihlahla; page 17, Mandela
- Tasbo, Slovo, "our
father"; page 25, "We
cry
Tambo B ;
for
'1
pace 3D, n0ur Mandela, uie will follou him".
1
nsrcss so far in this document, it is quite clear that it is
|
always
i ^
your leaders that is popularised
j
have
.}
the names
explained
my
of the
ANC leaders
attitude
in
thought counsel had also mentioned
|
j
that you accepted ss
between
that
So just on the
the masses?
respect,
but
also
the name of Mr
anc Nkomo and Xundu and others, several others.
-- I
I
Sobukwe
I do net
dispute the fact that the names of ANC people are mentioned
there.
•
It is only - thE other people - I put it to you, it is
more than 90%, it is always the people in the AfJC that is
*
.
popularised, the leaders in the ANC? -- Well, yes, the ANC
i A
t
^
is the oldest movement
|
richest history then any of the organisations.
.
in this country.
It
has
oot
the
So that it
hac really existed for I think over 7D years, and naturally
people who are interested
munities , people
•
1
from
in political development
communities
would
know
or
about
comthat,
would be aware of that history and they would talk about it.
•
(And then it goes further than that, and I will
go to
|
the next lot, it is always songs in which violence committed
,
by -he ANC, the oldest organisation
I
popularised, and I will read to you.
J .
|
.
I •,
jf
in- the country that is
Ue start acain with
'\ 0 \n n , page 9, the song is "Here is the Supreme Court spitting
fire", "Here is Gatsha's house, a blame"; page 31A, "Tambo
-_
is/...
U
*
666.68
-
14 653
-
HQLEFE
3
is in the bush training the soldiers"; page 31B, "Bring
$
gun";
page
31C,
"Tambo
bush
training
soldiers";
pgae
the
31D,
•
',
i
"We
shall
get
them
with
our
children";
"Tambo's
rock
is
j
formidable"; page 31F, "Across the river ue shall get them";
•
page 60 and 60 A, "Sing for our freedom".
There is a request
on page 6D by a person that the chairman, a specific request
that the people must sing for their freedom and that is the
1
*
SDng
then.
j
with
it"; ?V2" page 7, "Bring
^
Then we get a song,
"The
gun
the guns";
in
Angola,
"V2" page
come
6,
"We
are'going to catch them with their children"; "U2" page 15,
:
"There is Sasol on fire, the Supreme Court is on fire, young
.;
man
:
lighted
the
fire";
"U3"
page
1,
"The
soldiers, Tambo is our father"; page 4,
guerillas
are
"The guerillas, the
soldiers, Mandela, Tambo is a soldier"; page 29, "There is
Uarmbaths on fire, the boys of the spear hit
it yesterday,
ue are going"; pgae 39, "The boys of Hkonto struck yesterday";
n
UA"_pgae 3, "Ue are Mandela's
soldiers 0 ; page 5, "Ue uill
catch them across the river"; page 7, "Here it is on fire,
•
the
boys
carrying
diers";
"Come
'.
hit
it
yEsterday";
bazookas";
page
uith
17,
the
page
9,
10, song,
"5aldiers
guns";
page
page
"Ue
Mandela
26,
"Ue
came
are
from
Mandela's
Tambo11;
and
"li)e are
Soviet
page
our death"; page 2,
"They
do not
knou
25,
going, bezDokas";
"U7" page 1, "Ue are Mandela's soldiers, ue are waiting
\ '-
sol-
MK, we'll
hit
for
them
j i
1
*
with
AK and mortars"; page 3, "MK Mandela, Kathrada"; page
' :
5, "The Boers, ue will shoot them of course"; page 6,
.'
Mkonto ue Sizwe"; page 7, "The boys hit it yesterday, we are
:
going"; page 9,
5
s
5
•
their
children",
"Across the river we
and
also
soldiers of freedom"; page
"Father
12, "Viva
"Viva
will
catch
them
Tambo
wants
soldiers,
Spear
of the
Tambo/...
with
Nation,
866.72
Namibia,
ANC";
1fc S5k
page
-
HOLEFE
\
Tambo,
^}..
bazookas"; page 14, ntiJe are going carrying
Soviet
13,
"We
carrying
are
going
carrying
bazookas";
;
15 v "hie came from
bazookas, Tambo
j
training the soldiers"; '"VB"' page
1
Hendrickse is an informer, voertsek, MK eight
in
page
bush
17, "Slogans, guerrillas,
times";
page
18, "The spear arrived in Roodepoort, they are in the bush,
here is the bush commander in chief, lieutenant in the bush,
j
Joe Modise is a general, Mbeki
I
is a Communist, Mbeki is s Communist,
father,
Tambo
is
a
is a commandant, Joe Modise
Communist",
something about Roodepoort-
Now,
Tsmbo
yesterday
is our
we
heard
This Roodepoort here is also a
place where Hkanto we Sizue struck.
do not know.
Oliver
Is that correct? —
I
I said that I thought I saw it in one af the
documents we were asked - in the admission document.
Then we Q D to "A/10^' page 2, "There is a black,
and gold flag tied to the barrel of a gun carried
green
around";
page 3 the same, the black, green and gold flag tied tD the
barrel of a gun and carried around; page 11, "LJe will
4fc
enter
in the dark, Dliver Tambo n ; JI.V11 n page 2, "Lead us Tambo, we
enter Pretoria, there is a Soer woman crying, Oliver
Ue will catch them with
in the
bush
training
their
the
Tambo.
children 0 ; page 3, "TambD is
soldiers"; page
1D,
"There
is a
gun, come with their guns"; o_y_i2° page 53 in the second part
of "V12", "Die Boere, ons maak hulle dood.
ons maak die Boere dood"; £V1^", page
Tambo hex gese
17, "Uie are Mandela's
soldiers, we expect to die there"; page 1BA, "iiie will
in darkness, Oliver
enter
Tambo"; page 32, that poem af Jingles,
;
"There is a revolution, colours of black, green and gold fly
j
high 8 ;
|
i
Blaemf ontein";
page
32,
n
"There
v"^5n, page
-"
is
a
3,
bomb
B
blast
Tambo,
hold
in
my
Pretoria
hand,
r
i
with/...
and
shoot
867.04
-
14 655
-
HDLEFE
with the bazooka", "Mandela's soldiers shoot with the cannons
there is Mandela, ue
shoot us"; pgae 4,
are
going
"Shoot
with
even
if
they
are
going to
cannons, bazookas, throw a
grenade, Slovo our father, Tambo is our father, ue are his
MK soldiers"; page 6,
back
uith
"Please
socialism,
lead us, Tambo, ue will cane
shoot
uith
bazooka,
soldiers,
ycu
Mkcnto, Hayi, Hayi"; ^UifiA"' page 2, "Ue come during darkness"
pace 14, "Are you scared of them?" TJo, ue usnt them"; pace
42", "Viva, stab uith a spear";
n
V19A" page 3, °Uie are Mandela's
soldiers, uaiting for our death"; page 6,
"Across the river
ue uill catch them uith their children and the Supreme Court
is on fire, the boys hit
rifles, come uith
the
it yesterday";
rifles";
page
fire, boys left us yesterday";
page
page 7, "There are
14, "Supreme
Court on
18, "Spear has fallen,
pick it up"; "U2Q" page
12, "AK47" ten times shouted; pags
12,
soldiers"; page
"Come Mandela, come
V23 n
page
10,
shoot";
pgae
22,
available";
Mandela,
called
n
terrorists";
shouted
16 tines;
page
page
B
UJe shall
"Sey
23,
no
shoot
to
"Honde
44, "Dogs
29,
are
spear
them,
our
sal
"The
here
is
is
brother
being
doodgemaak
uDrdc
going
to be
killed* '-
shouted 11 times; page 57, "Mandela 3aid ue are going to, nc
matter uhat the conditions are"; "V24 nx page 3, "The gun, the
gun";
pege
4,
them"; page 11,
"Viva
n
Uiva
him"; page 15, "Pouer
ANC, they
ANC, they
uill
shoot
them, they
kill
uill shoot them, they
kill
is ours, they died
in Zimbabue, they
fled"; pace 25, "We shall be sitting uith TamtiD and see the
Soers rowing doun"; page 46, "Ue agree uith soldiers"; pags
47,
page
"The warriors
27,
"Across
are
spitting
the
river
fire, ue
we'll
are
catch
going";
them";
n
page
"U25 D
46,
Tambo in the bush training soldiers"; page 49, "The boys of ^
Mkonto/...
L-
* .
667.08
MkDnto
struck
14 656
yesterday";
-
HOLEFE
^V26" page
7,
f i r e , b o y s , spear hit it y e s t e r d a y 0 ; page
]V:
bush training the s o l d i e r s 0 ; page
"Supreme
Court on
1 2 , D Tambo
in the
1 5 , "Soldiers of M a n d e l a 0 ;
page 1 9 , "Hey s o l d i e r s , b a z o o k a , e x p l o d e the b o m b 0 ; page 2 6 ,
"How w i l l it be sitting with Tambo seeing the Boers running."
-:
So Hr
1
shouted
Molefe,
all
the
songs
at the m e e t i n g s
that
of which
were
we
sung
have
and
the
slogans
transcripts
i
!
before the Court, they were all on violence, violence against
i
•
the Whites and the Government?
'
^
•j
^ ^ .
That was popularised
at all
the meetings? -- All I can say is that the UDF had no program
\
of popularising the leaders or acts of violence-
•
songs that people have sung over the years, and indeed in the
UDF they never became an issue.
These are
LJe never sat down to scru-
tinise each song.
Mr Molefe, then another point is quite clear from the
songs and the slogans, is that songs and slogans were in the
ATJC, Hkonto we Sizwe and
•gsnisatiDns that fight
A
this
regard
UDF are
together,
popularised
and
I would
as being
rEf2r
you
to "V?" page 5, "Viva UDF, Viva MK, Viva
Oliver Tambo, Nelson Mandela".
orin
ANC,
So the names of UDF, MK and
ANC linked in the chanting or the shouting; " V11"
page 3 and
page 23, "Take my hand, Tambo, don't let it go", and on page
23 introducing Doraty Nyembe as a guest of AZASD, ANC? —
cannot remember coming across that.
•
I
That is "V"?
"V11" page 23, it is on page 23 of
n
U11", the second-last
psrsgraph, unknown man:
"She is one of the guests of AZASO/AMC. n
—
I do not know what that means.
°\j^kn
;
'•
to die".
page
17A,
"uJe are Mandela's
soldiers, we
expect
"U15" page 3, "Tambo, hold my hand, here is Mandela,
w e / . ..
867.10
going,
14 657
Tarn bo is our
-
HOLEFE
•"
we are
father,
Slovo
is our father";
II
page 6,
..:
page 3, "Tambo, hold my hand"; page 36, "Hold my hand Tambo'
"Please lead us Tambo, MkDnto, Hayi, Hayi"; "VISA"
12 times; page 42, "Viva, stab with a spear"; "V19A° page 3,
•We are Mandela's
soldiers";
page
18, "Spear
has
fallen,
i
pick it up"; "V196" page 13, slogan UDF 28 times and Tambo
i
two
times;
"V2Q"
page
2,
"Viva
Boesak,
Viva
51ovo, Viva
j
Tambo, Viva ANC"; "V20" page 12, DCome Mandela, come soldiers,
j
i
:
\
A
]
. come Gumede"; page 29, "The spear is available to do away
with the crooked, ue don't want Gatsha"; page 58, "Oliver
Tambo is my father 0 ; B V23" page 10, "Ue shall shoot them, here
i
j
is Mandela"; page 35, BTambo lead us to see people, lead us
|
home"; pgae 3B T
'
ever
the
Mandela,
"Mandela, step forward, ue are going uhat-
conditions
Biko";
°V24"
SiilAPO"; "V25" page 6,
are";
page
page
2,
39,
"Viva
"Remember
MK,
Viva
Mahlangu,
ANC,
Viva
"Those mho hate MK or UDF or SOY CO,
;
we'll get them"; page 32, while Mpetha is held on the stage
j
on that part, there is shouting of the name of Oliver Tambo
i £
six times; psge 47, "Viva ANC, Viva MK";
I
°Eoldiers )
spearboys,
UDF";
page
19,
n
V26 n page 5 to 5,
"Soldiers,
bazooka,
explode the bomb and UDF"; pgae 26, "Hou will it be sittinc
•;?
wiuh Tambo seeing Boers running"; page 30, "Our Mandela, U E
will follow him".
So again, Mr Molefe, I put it to you siso
|
in this regard, there is a link-up between UDF, the leaders
\ ••
\-
of UDF and the ANC and violence in the ANC? —
|
comment in that respect
:•
comment, that it was not a program of the UDF to popularise
violence, to popularise
\ .
*«
r -
previously.
1 have made s
I still stand by that
individuals mentioned there.
These
are things that people have been saying for many, many years
and they never really became issues within
before/...
the UDF and even
H
];,.
667.12
- 14 658 -
MDLEFE
before the UDF.
4V
I put it to you, Mr Molefe, that it is not a question
of saying it for many, many years, but you will not find any
song in this lot of speeches in which you can find, except
for
the
song
"IMkDsi
freedom songs.
•-
—
Sikelela"
any
other
song
except
for
There is no other song except freedom songs?
Well, those are political gatherings, but I thought there
was a song - I do not know whether it was a song, counsel
i
referred
to
something
something
like
which
that.
says
"Stab .with
My recollection
a spear", I
; A
think
is that
that
;.
song uas sung for many, many years and it was talking about
j *
the spear of Chaka.
Ide used to sing it at school, we used
to sing it during school trips, it uas sung at weddings.
;
So
that these things are - people sing about them.
,
And I put it further to you, there was nothing sung at
any
of these meetings
where
it is to pick
up
the
spear,
there is no reference to Chaka st all, but it is the spear,
and I put to you, what is meant here by the spear if Mkanta
;
£
we 5izwe? -- Weil, we used to sing about the spear.
I da
not know, I have not - I may well have to read the whole
song,
'.
but
in
any
event, people
sing
about
all
sorts
of
thing,s and as I say, we have never sat to take songs literally, to study them really.
;•
But Mr MolefE, it goes further than that.
It is not a
i
question of people singing anything.
;
only get freedom songs
On these meetings you
and not everything?
are political meetings.
They
—
Lie 11,
those
sing - but it is true also
that there were other songs that were sung for instance if
! .
one refers to - I think it should be EXHIBIT "1/14", a meeting
" .
\ *
of the first anniversary
of the UDF, there were a lot of
those/...
867.1*1
-
1*t 659
-
HOLEFE
those people who were singing traditional songs, the traditional clothes, and
Jessica
then - I do
Sherman, what
kind
of
not
know
song
-
the
I have
song
sung by
not
studied
those songs, but she sings all sorts of songs.
Mr Molefe, in "1/14", uhat are you referring us to? —
think if that is the first - no, I think it is not
n
should be
U9n,
I think, the first anniversary
n
I
u")4n, it
of the UDF,
UDF One Year Rally, I think.
ASSESSOR
(MR KRUGEL):
remember now.
B
v9" is the TIC meeting. —
I am a bit tired, but anyway, it is a meeting
that deals with the first anniversary
it
is
"VIBA".
I cannot
I do
remember seeing
not know
if
it
those people singing
of the UDF.
is
I think
transcribed,
but I
on the video, when we
were looking at the video.
MR JACOBS:
Mr Molefe, I suppose you can take it for a fact
and it was checked with your attorneys, that what we saw on
the
videos
were
transcribed,
--
They
were
playing
drums
there, some carrying axes, others carrying sticks and so on.
Maybe that one was not translated, but I think Your Lordship
will remember, they were dressed in beautiful colours.
Then
there was - I recall
that
same meeting.
sters
singing,
also
seeing
a gumboot
dance
in
I think it was the same meeting, some youngI do
not
know
what
they
were
saying,
they
were singing and doing a gumboot dance.
Uhat were they
singing? --
I cannot
remember
now.
I
was not present there, but it uas on the video.
Is that not the freedom songs?
How can you say if you
do not know what they were singing that it was not a freedom
song? -- Well, I cannot remember, I do
not
know
translated.
Is/...
if
it is
667.16
-
ASSESSOR (MR KRUGEL):
COURT:
14 660
-
HOLEFE
Is that nou Jessica Sherman's song?
No, it is the gumboot
dance. —
The gumboot dance,
some youngsters, I think they were aged about 12, 13, 14 or
maybe 15.
MR
JACOBS:
songs
On
"VISA",
that were sung
do
the
UDF
One
you
want
Year
to
Rally,
refer
to
us?
which
I do not
know, Mr Molefe, you said there are gongs? -- I cannot refer
nou specifically.
I am just trying
to recall, when we say
that
were
on
video, there
talking
about
Jessica.
singing
the
those, songs
gumboot
I think
dance.
I was wrong.
is really
-
I think
I
the
did
video.
also
I was
talk
about
It seems here what she is
what
one
can
call
a
freedom
song, but she sings all sorts of SDngs.
Yes, that is normal, Mr Molefe, but not on this meeting,
all sorts of songs. —
All I am trying ta
say
is
that in
that meeting, in that video there is certainly singing there
by those people, I think they are doing traditional
dancing
or something.
COURT:
dance.
At the bottom of page 39, I think we have the gumboDi
Is that what you are referring
to? -- That is so. '
There were other women who were - I think women and some men
who were dancing
there.
In any
event, M'Lord, it
is trus
that predominantly the songs that are sung there are freedonsongs, what are generally called freedom songs.
MR JACOBS:
'And I put it to you, Mr Molefe, the songs wer =
sung in order to popularise the AWC with the people, popularise
Mkonto
we
Sizwe
with
the
people,
to
pDpul2riss
the
leaders of the ANC with the people, and, I put it ta you, to
popularise
violence
program of the UDF.
with
the
people?
--
That
was
not
the
The UDF did not plan to do those things. One/.. .
867.19
-
14 661
-
MDLEFE
£l ^
.
One may uell say that they may be reflecting
IM
of
people
in the
about, how they
townships,
look
the kind
of
at the situation,
the perception
things
they
sing
but it is certainly
n o ; the program of the UDF.
And is it also true, Mr Holefe, that if the UDF is such
i
I .
1
j .
_
a peaceful organisation
as you are trying
to convey
to the
Court, did you at any stage try tD get the people to sing
something not so bloodthirsty and so on? —
Ueli, people
'i '.
* •
•;
^
sing
all sorts of
well-known
songs.
They
sing
for his peacef ulness.
He
about
Luthuli
is known
about
who is
that.
| •
They sing about other people like Dr Motlana and so on, they
:
sine about Bishop Tutu, they sing about all sorts of things.
*
They singall these songs, but as I say, in our communities,
in the
UDF and in organisations
that
I had belonged
to in
the past, we had never seen songs as things that were promoting
violence. Ue had never taken songs
literally.
Lie hac
never imagined that at any stage we could be accused on the
basis of songs. That never happened in the past.
been
sung for generations, some of those songs, many, many
years.
j
'
* •
They have
I had known of no instance where after people sang, 2
they became bloodthirsty and they wanted to kill.
Mr Holefe, I put it to you that even the AI\1C acknowledges
that by singing the freedom songs, waving the flags cf the
ANC on the stages, carrying the guns, singing about Mkonto
ji
: -
we Sizwe, that you
in the UDF
;
AWC in the minds of the people? —
the ANC has written about that.
succeeded
in
legalising
the
Uell, I do not know what
LJhat I can say is that it
has never been the intention of the UDF, it has never been a
I ;
plan of the UDF to do that, and indeed other people who had
*?
also written the writings of some writers about that, dispute:- 3
3
that/...
867.21
that.
by
-
14 662
-
HDLEFE
I remember reading for instance an argument presented
Or Zomo in respect
of songs
and funerals.
He
that the songs are intended to popularise anybody
disputes
or atten-
dance at funerals of people uho had been members of the ANC,
uere intended to promote the ANC, and I understand it perfectly the way he understands
pecially
it.
But in our communities, es-
African communities, people
believe
in
singing
in
all sorts of events, occasions.
n
Mr Molefe, infEXHIBIT
specifically
asked
\l2*, I put it to you
the people to sing
songs please 0 , and not only
that
"one of our
just to sing.
you
greatest
You asked
them
specifically to sing a freedom song? -- 1 did not really say
a
freedom
sing
song,
a freedom
really
but
I would
song,
unfortunate,
and
you
have
I think
know,
expected
them
the
"greatest" W E E
word
really
a
really
phrase
to
intended
really to say, let us sing a song, and I had explained in my
evidence in chief or someuhere
in the course of the crcss-
exc-ination,
under
song.
the
circumstances
We had been waiting
which
for a speaker
I called
for =
from East London,
Tobile Msileni, and he was not arriving.
There was also 2
speaker from Food & Canning who was supposed to speak
there
and he was not there yet, and we sought to while up time so
that those people could arrive, to while away she time.
On page 7 you said, that is of.EXHIBIT "V2 n :
"Can we have one of our greatest songs please, before I
call on the next speaker".
5o_ there
'uanred
is
net
a
a song, one
speaker? —
question
of
the
of
waiting,
greatest
Mr
songs
Moiefe.
before
You
the
next
No, I have explained that, and if one may refer
to that exhibit, it would be clear that
I had
been
whether/...
asking
867.22
-
14 663
-
HOLEFE
whether the speaker from Food & Canning had arrived, and I
' - » •
J$>.
think possibly I had also been asking about the speaker from
East
London, and
throughout
that meeting
I think,
either
that was the only song or there were about two songs which
'.
were sung.
And
f
the greatest
SDng that was sung,
the
'•'
j
guns, where are the guns?"
.
guns, where are
'
Africa, they are in Africa. They are in Africa"' and then it
.
^
the
guns,
Audience
".Where are
bring
was "Amandla Awethu" again. —
the
chanting, "Bring the
guns.
They
are
in
That had been an old song,
\
M'Lard.
People had been singing it many years, but
I did
\ ;
*I
not - when I asked for a song, I did not know what song was
I .
going to be sung.
'
have been a freedom song.
One could have predicted that it would
Then again on page 14 of the same document.
CDURT: LHow Did is the song "Sobabamba Nezingane Zabo"? —
I
do not know, but I think in the late 70's people were singing
it.
£
MR JACOBS:
Idas it after the Soueto uprising? —
;
70's was after, yes.
The lata
It may well be that it was sung before
that, but I recall really - the other thing is, thEse songs
2~= sung, sometimes a song is sung in Natal in a particular
way and it is caught up by people in a particular province
j
'.
I
later on, maybe after several years that it had been sung in
that place.
And then on page 14 again, Mr Molefe, you said:
."I have been asked to announce to you that one of the
stalwarts of the struggle in South Africa, ^Yusub Dadoc,
: ,
passed away three days ago in exile."
i
* '
-- Yes, I remember that incident.
And/...
^/c
$*
'" .
667,25
-
U 66<i
-
HOLEFE
»C
And then later an you asked
§j .
:
this, and it is only at
this occasion that you uere waiting for a person:
;
"Shall ue have one song after
.-"• .
important
*i ,'
ue must go to from here."
>
this song?
It may be
too for this meeting to say precisely
UJhat dn you mean by that?
where
What must they say in the song
where you must gQ from here? -- I think those are really two
: •
different things, a song on one hand and to get the comments
: .
from people in the meeting in respect - I think that meeting
A
was called
to deal with
the situation
intended - I intended
tD convey
of Ciskei.
It was
that
present
\
really
i
must make suggestions as to hou we could help the people in
j
Ciskei, and I think
if my recollection
those
is okay, somewhere
then I did explain that U E had - I think we had about five
people an the committee and that those who were interested
in helping could contact those people, and I think
I gave
the telephone numbers of each one of those persons.
I put it to you, Mr MolefB, that you are wrong,
' ,9
j
when
you asked
the people
tD sing
that
"one or our greatest
songs", that was not at the time when you were waiting for
somebody or you did not have a speaker to continue? -- I am
-. '
not saying we did not have a speaker to continue, but one of
our most important speakers, the speaker from
i
East
London,
had not yet arrived-
i
'- \
»
The most important speaker, was he to speak last? -Not that he was tD speak last, but we wanted to have him in
that meeting, and.he was flying from East London.
i
\
i ,
\l
j"
Ue were
expecting him to come.
In the meantime there were enough speakers to carry or.
witn zfte meeting and go on until the other nan comes? -- And
S67.28
-
I think
»• r
ue even
14 665
had this
-
person
MOLEFE
uho is called
an
unknown
speaker, I think he also spoke ..
To uhich page are you referring to? -- I think page 16,
this
- ,
unknown
program,
speaker.
This
person
mas really
and he only spoke because we were
not on the
waiting
and ue
did n o t want to finish the meeting before that person arrived
While you are at page 15, you said they were old songs
and t h i s sona "There is Sasol on fire", is that an old sane,
i ,
*
Mr Molefe? -- I think I heard that song about - in the SD's
A
or late 7D's.
I am not quite sure.
The Sasol on fire here is referring
to the attack by
the terrorists on Sasol, is it correct, when they burnt it
down? -- That is so- I think it started around that time,
COURT:
Uhy is it that when you call for a song, the people
sing about violence?
This is now the third song
you
have
called for and they are all violent? -- My recollection is
that that day I asked for only one song.
1
I dD not think I
asked for another song.
\ •9
Well, this one you called for:
"Shall we have one song after that song?"
That is on page 14.
page 7. -- I see.
The previous one too you caliad for, at
I do not know.
Normally
people
sing
anything that comes to mind.
.
;
Have you never called for a lullaby
or something?
--
iI
, •
No, I think the only occasions where I would have mentioned
specifically which song was to be sung was when maybe it was
at the end of the meeting
and
one says, let us sing
ths
national anthem.
>
I .
:
MR JACOBS: And I see the other one is also, "There is the
Supreme Court Dn firs". Uhich Supreme Court
about/...
were you singing
B67.29
-
Hi
66S
-
HOLEFE
"i
.;
about here, Mr Molefe? —
?s
Where is that?
It is still on page 15. —
had
/;
been
an attack
I think some time ago there
on the Supreme
Court
in - I think in
Pietermaritzburg or s o . I cannot r e m e m b e r .
Also an attack
by Hkonto we Sizwe?
claimed responsibility
-- I believe
they
for that, but it is o n e of the songs
that people have been singing about in the t o w n s h i p s .
And will you agres that the Eupreme C o u r t , I suppose,
;
is n o t a hard
.A
;
knou.
target?
It is a soft
I do not know those t h i n g s .
target?
-- I do not
It may well b e .
I dc
not k n o w .
{
That is not where you find soldiers? -- I do not knou.
Maybe if they attack it when we are sitting h e r e , it becomes
a soft target-
Maybe if they just hit the building, it may
became a hard target.
I da not know.
refers to human beings.
I thought soft target
I do not know about that.
So the UDF on its m e e t i n g s , is it also
attacks on soft targets
yj
about it? —
and singing
about
condoning the
i t , even
singing
I have made the point very clear that in the
UDF we had never sat down to listen to a song and attempt to
take the song literally as they are sunn, and it has never
{
i
* •
'
«
i
been discussed as an issue in the UDF.
bredinthe
tile were born anc
communities where people have been singing for
many, many years, about various things at various times, and
when these new songs come and pass, one does not really sit
down and scrutinise, listen carefully and isolate each ward
in a song and try to arrive at what each word means.
Maybe
artists could have done that.
Mr Molefe, if you say various
things,
then
you mean
other things than violence and leaders of the AfJC and so on?
-- People/...
,,'l-r>
>
*
867.30
—
•g ._
•
-
14 667
-
MQLEFE
People have sung about leaders of the ANC, they have sung
about leaders of the PAC, they have sung about Steve Biko,
\
.**
they have sung about Chaka, all sorts of things.
i
I just want to understand
sing about various things.
what you mean
by various -
Is it other things than freedom?
-- They have sung about Mr Strydom, they have sung about Dr
Veruoerd.
5o it is always leaders? -- Leaders and anything.
They
i
)/
sing about ..
I i A
Does it also include .. -- They sing about their horses
i
|
at work, for instance.
*
Singing
—
'
about mountains or the green.lakes and so on?
They might well have sung about mountains.
But it is strange that we always find only
songs at your meetings.
THE COURT ADJOURNS TO 1987-08-27
the violent
Historical Papers, Wits University
DELMAS TREASON TRIAL 1985-1989
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Document Title:- Vol 270 p 14572-14667
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