>> Steve Turnidge: Welcome to the November Audio Engineering Society Meeting on audio
education, and we've got a remarkable series of humans here tonight. I'm pretty proud of the
panel, and we have a remarkable audience, as well. So what we typically do is go around and
introduce ourselves real quick, so we know who we're in the room with, and what we'll also do -and, Rick, if you want to keep track of this, is we ask how many AES members do we have in
the audience.
>>: I think in the whole room, right?
>> Steve Turnidge: In the whole room, yes, actually. Absolutely. In attendance, so Rick will
take care of that, and then if there's any other business we should deal with.
>>: Twelve.
>> Steve Turnidge: Twelve. Okay, that helps. Good, thank you all. So without further ado,
let's do this, starting with?
>> Robert Lang: Hi, everybody. I'm Robert Lang of Robert Lang Studios. I'm very happy to be
here tonight, and Marlie Pesek is representing my education program, and it's just a pleasure to
be with everybody this evening. Thank you.
>> Chris Floberg: Hello, I'm Chris Floberg, audio engineer, games, some TV, various -whatever's loose I'll do.
>> Bob Moses: Hi. I'm Bob Moses. I can't even talk. Executive Director of the AES, and I'm
here with an actual audio student who needs to pick one of these places.
>> Kylie Sheer: I'm that student. I'm [Kylie Sheer], and I'm a senior in high school. Yeah.
>> Karen Gold Reineke: Hi. I'm [Karen Gold] Reineke, and I'm with the Seattle Academy of
Recording Arts, and Joe is up there representing us.
>> Greg Dixon: Hi. I'm Greg Dixon. I'm an assistant professor of music at DigiPen Institute of
Technology, where I teach sound design and composition and have Lawrence Schwedler tonight
representing our school, so I'm really excited to be here, as well.
>> Dana Olsen: Hi. I’m [Dana Olsen], and I'm a retired engineer of sorts, learning audio and
trying to learn how to design loudspeakers.
>>: Hi. I'm [Ravi]. I actually work in this building in Microsoft. I've seen some of these
announcements, and I've always been interested in audio. I play music, so I thought I'll just stop
by and see what's going on.
>> Mike Zwilling: Mike Zwilling. I work at Microsoft. I know nothing about this, but my
nephew is going to Bellevue Community College and has been thinking that audio engineering is
something he's interested in. He couldn't attend, so I'm going to learn.
>> Keith Elliott: Hey. [Keith Elliott], just moved here a couple days ago from Boulder,
Colorado, switching careers from software to audio engineering and recently enrolled with
Robert Lang Studios.
>> Larry Matthews: [Larry Matthews], Technology Instructor for Bellevue School District.
>> John Eldridge: [John Eldridge], another random Microsoft engineer, trained as an electrical
engineer, ended up in software, and audio just kind of always distracted me from all of those
things, which is fun.
>> Rick Fisher: I'm Rick Fisher. I own and operate RFI Mastering.
>> Jayney Wallick: I'm Jayney Wallick with Bard at Large. I record live music.
>> Andy Meyer: Andy Meyer. I'm a freelance recording engineer and work at Bellevue
Presbyterian Church in the audio program. I've got a plug. We're looking for two employees
right now, so if anybody here needs a pretty good audio job or knows somebody that does, let me
know.
>>: That'd be all of us.
>> Connor Hoffman: I'm Connor Hoffman. I also work at Bellevue Presbyterian Church in the
AV department. Just an audio engineer, sound operator.
>> Cal Taylor: I'm [Cal Taylor], a musician, electronics technician. I do sound and lights for
McMenamins Olympic Club in Centralia and the Historic Fox Theatre in Centralia.
>> Mark Newey: Hi. I'm [Mark Newey], interested observer, fly on the wall.
>> Ariel Peak: Hi. I'm [Ariel Peak], and I'm currently interning at Robert Lang Studios.
>> John Casperg: Hi. I'm [John Casperg], longtime audio and broadcast engineer with Metro
Sound, teaching broadcast journalism technology at Green River Community College.
>> Ivan Tashev: I'm [Ivan Tashev]. Work here in this building doing the Acoustics Research
Team, member of the Pacific Northwest Committee. That's pretty much it.
>> David Johnson: I'm [David Johnson]. I'm on his team. I'm a software design engineer in
Research and did Cool Edit in a past life. I was part of it.
>>: I am [Hanas]. I have nothing interesting to say after those two guys. We're the audio team
of Microsoft Research.
>> Dana Burke: I'm [Dana Burke]. I'm a senior audio design engineer for various hardware
development teams around here.
>> Rick Chin: Hi. I'm [Rick Chin]. I'm the section webmaster. I'm a recording engineer. I do
some amount of live sound, less I hope now, because stuff gets heavier every year, so let's see. I
don't do lights, I don't do video, and I don't do ladders.
>>: And you don't do windows, right?
>> Steve Turnidge: Okay, good. Thank you all very much. It's good to have you here, and so
now we get to the meat of the situation. Rick, is there any other business we need to take care of,
or I think we're taken care of.
>>: I think we're there.
>> Steve Turnidge: Let's call it taken care of. I am, again, extremely pleased to see these
humans in a row, because they represent a very broad range of high value to our region, and I've
had the opportunity to be involved with each of them on some level. I taught at Shoreline
Community College, and I'm the Chair of the Music Tech Advisory Committee there. We just
went and did a modular synthesizer situation at Art Institute a couple weeks ago. Joe, we're still
looking on figuring out how to work together. I got him on the AES committee.
>> Joe Reineke: He's the reason I'm here.
>> Steve Turnidge: And I teach at Robert Lang as well, occasionally, mastering. So this is a
good crew. Please introduce yourselves and your school, if you would.
>> Marlie Pesek: So my name is Marlie Pesek, and I represent Robert Lang Studios. Our
education program is Robert Lang Academy, and it's a one-year program. Do you want me to
get into that now, or is that one of the questions?
>> Steve Turnidge: Let's just do a quick one.
>> Marlie Pesek: A quick one. Okay, great. There you go.
>>: That was quick.
>> Steve Turnidge: You're in the deep temple of sound.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: Okay. I'm Lawrence Schwedler. I'm the Program Director of
DigiPen's Music and Sound Design Degree Programs. They're two new undergraduate degree
programs that I designed and that we launched 3.5 years ago. And DigiPen is an Institute of
Technology just down the road here, sort of the Harvard of videogame schools. I think people
think of it that way.
>> Joe Reineke: Hey. I'm Joe Reineke. I'm the Founder and Senior Instructor at Seattle
Academy of Recording Arts. I'm also a producer and studio owner of Orbit Audio here in
Seattle.
>> Steve Barsotti: My name's Steve Barsotti. I work at -- right now, I'm adjunct faculty at both
the Art Institute of Seattle and Cornish College of the Arts, but I was the Academic Director of
the Audio Production Programs at the Art Institute for about 10 years, stepped down a couple
years ago.
>> Steve Malott: I am Steve Malott. I am digital audio faulty at Shoreline Community College,
and I'm adjunct recording engineering at Northwest University in Kirkland.
>> Jim Elenteny: I'm Jim Elenteny. I'm the Music Tech Department Chair at Shoreline
Community College.
>> Steve Turnidge: Excellent, thank you. I wonder how long this takes to work. I think I'll just
keep it on now. Okay, so we have a number of ways that we could do this, and let's build it as
we do, because there are topics that we're all interested in that don't have to do with just our
schools. There's the general concept of audio education and education in general, really, of why
do you need a school, anyway, is our first question. And for me, I went to Shoreline in the '79,
'80 type era, took all the philosophy courses and then didn't do a lot more, but I had a life. I still
have a life. So why do you need a school anyway? Anyone want to pick that up and have a
discussion? Steve, how about you?
>> Steve Malott: I'd like to start that discussion by asking the panelists a question in general.
How many people on the panel went to school to learn audio engineering?
>>: Engineering, no.
>>: You said audio engineering.
>> Steve Malott: Yes.
>> Steve Turnidge: How about some related field like music, then.
>> Steve Malott: Well, okay, music I guess.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: If guitar lessons count.
>> Steve Turnidge: How many people on the panel have a degree? Okay. That's cool. Sweet.
Don't worry, I don't either.
>> Marlie Pesek: Well, I can address that. I think a lot of people are going to higher education
institutions because they need to explore if the direction they're headed in is one that they can
continue to pursue, even through hard work, or maybe during the time that they're going to
school, they find something else that they're really highly skilled at or that they love. So I think
that part of why we go to college is exploration, also to -- and we're talking about college, right?
Because you don't really have a choice in high school.
>> Steve Turnidge: That's true. Let's talk about higher education, as compared to just going out.
>> Marlie Pesek: Yes, so beyond the exploration, I think also when you can master the rules,
and we looked up this quote the other day from Rachmaninoff, when you can master the rules,
you know which rules you can break and which ones to keep. So I think that can apply to any
field.
>> Steve Turnidge: And weren't we talking about earlier how often it's not what you go to
school to learn that you actually learn the most from going to school?
>> Lawrence Schwedler: Yes, just dinner just before the meeting, Steve and Rick and I were
having dinner, and we were talking about how, I think in each of our experience, or certainly in
mine, that what I ended up getting out of actually an undergraduate degree and then actually a
master of fine arts in classical guitar performance, which you wouldn't think would be a sensible
thing for really anybody to do, frankly. From a career standpoint, really, how many people are
going to get a master of fine arts in classical guitar performance and then actually make a living
playing classical guitar on the concert stage. There's five guys who do it, and when one of them
dies, then there'll be room for another fifth person, so it's not that it can't be done or that it
shouldn't be done, but for the vast majority of us, and I'm certainly in that category, that's not
why I did it, was to get a job, but I did it because, for me, I loved music and I couldn't imagine
not doing music. And I didn't really care at the time that that would be a career. It was just that's
what I wanted to study and engage in. And what we were talking about at dinner is the things
that you learn by being in any educational environment very much outweigh and eclipse the
actual content of what you're studying. It's the connections you make, the team collaboration,
learning to pursue a long-term goal over a period of years and actually chewing through and
clawing your way and actually getting it. All of those things are something that you can get out
of higher education.
>> Marlie Pesek: And if you travel too somewhere just to get out of your environment.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: Your box.
>> Steve Turnidge: Your gravity well.
>> Marlie Pesek: Going across the country or to another country, that's a big part of it, too.
>> Steve Turnidge: Joe?
>> Joe Reineke: Well, do you need a school to do this? The answer is no. You can take the
slow road, like me. I spent like 25 years learning this, and I don't recommend it. It's a long, long
road, but the reason that we started this program is so we could teach what -- pass on the
knowledge that we have to other folks in a condensed timeframe, so they can get to doing what
they love sooner.
>> Steve Turnidge: The other thing that came up at dinner is that especially in audio, there is
really no formula to learn. If you learn a formula and implement it, because the people that
designed the things that we stand on the shoulders of, they started from scratch, and with the
tools that they had at hand. Now, we have completely different tools, so more the creativity of
how to have a pile of stuff and have something good come out at the end. Steve, any comment?
>> Steve Barsotti: Well, I was just thinking, you had mentioned to go to school to do this, but
this has not really been fleshed out. What does this mean? Record in the studio, do live sound,
do sound for film? This can be a whole wide range of things, so I think that people -- I know a
lot of people in your situation that spent a good chunk of their lives just learning as they go
along. That's the -- and not to put you in one box in terms of what you do, but I think what the
schools have to offer is what Marlie was talking about. It broadens your potential scope for
when you get out. It creates a larger definition of what this means. It gives students this ability - you might not end up in a recording studio. You might not end up working for videogames, but
you have a broadened skill set and an ability to kind of find other things. I've had students come
out of the Art Institute that don't end up in audio jobs. They end up doing audio in their own
way, for their communities, for themselves, but they have a larger degree, which I think grants
them access to a wider variety of things.
>> Steve Turnidge: It's a bigger key to the door of your heart's desire, I guess. You've got to
craft your own.
>> Steve Malott: There's certainly an amalgam or a balance of all of the things that people are
saying. I think my perspective is going to school gives you a hand up on learning things about
yourself that can be very helpful for you, no matter what path you take, whether it's in the audio
field or not. Most notably, it gives you the ability to figure out how you learn, and to be able to
leverage the information about yourself, about the way you bring in information and the way you
adopt information and the way you synthesize information is very, very, very important to
growing in your life and continuing lifelong learning. That's certainly number one. Number two
is being in an educational environment provides a certain amount of discipline and
accountability. Those things are different in an academic institution than they are when you're in
a studio and you mess up a session or you happen to get through it and not mess it up. And so I
think the advantages of going to a school, whether it's a four-year school, a two-year school, a
trade school, a specialized school, is that the people that are in that environment are there to help
you understand how to learn what the material is but also how to have the discipline to approach
it from your perspective, so you benefit from it as much as you can. And then the collaborative
element, which Marlie talked about, I think is also very, very important, because we don't
operate in a vacuum, no matter what our occupation ends up being. We're working with other
people. We're communicating with them. We are synergizing, we're synthesizing information
together, and learning how to do that in small groups, in larger groups, across large geographic
areas, one to one in a room with somebody for 18 hours, those are all circumstances that we find
ourselves in as audio engineers, as physicians, as teachers, as people. And learning how to
manipulate that and transit through those environments, I think that's one of the reasons why it's
a good idea to go to school. And if you happen to choose audio as a pathway to find out more
information about for your career or for your avocation, well, that's great. It's one of the five
senses. How can you go wrong? You're going to use that every day until you can't hear
anymore. So hopefully that's the whole lifespan.
>> Steve Turnidge: So people you meet is actually a large benefit, because these people are in
your field, sort of by definition. Some will fall out, but some won't, so these people evolve along
with you, and legacy trumps currency, so if you just meet somebody who's famous, that's
different than having gone to school with them.
>> Steve Malott: How do you know legacy trumps currency. Have you had currency? I haven't
had any currency.
>> Steve Turnidge: That's a good point. We're still working on that. Maybe I should go back to
school. Jim?
>> Jim Elenteny: Just to add to what Steve was saying, one of the things that I'm most proud
about at our school, and it's something that I've noticed since coming to this school is that it's
really a community of students who want to learn from each other, not only from their
instructors, but from each other. We'll get students who will come in with their focus being, say,
like electronic dance music, sitting right next to somebody whose focus is rock and roll, sitting
next to somebody whose focus is hip hop. And they'll all pick each other's brains by saying, hey,
I liked what you did here. How did you make this happen? How did you make that happen?
And the collaborative networking part of it is something you're not going to get most other
places, because like you're saying, if you're going to learn from somebody on the job, you've got
to get it right that time, and then if you don't get it right the next time, you're not around. In
school, you have the chance to experiment and to try these new ideas and see how that they work
for you.
>> Steve Turnidge: And the ability and permission to fail.
>> Jim Elenteny: And it's absolutely file to fail, because that's what going to school is about, is
to learn and to improve upon.
>> Steve Turnidge: Fail fast and often, as Steve has attributed to me, the faster you fail, the
richer you get.
>> Jim Elenteny: And the faster you can then learn from what that failure was, so if you're going
to fail, that's totally fine. Make your choices. What I think is really important about an audio
school -- ours is a two-year school. Some of these other schools are four years -- is that we're
just giving them the toolkit and the vocabulary to understand what it is that they really want to be
going for or doing. They're not going to get their life's work done in two years, but they'll have
the foundation to then go on, continue learning from there on out, because as we all know with
audio, you're never going to know everything that there is to know about audio, but you can
always be learning more, and so to give them that foundation, that toolkit, is vital.
>> Steve Turnidge: A base.
>> Steve Malott: And I want to just throw in one thing, and that is he's talking about it from the
Shoreline perspective, which is as a community college, a two-year school. I teach at a two-year
school and a four-year school. We have four-year schools represented, and we have nine-month
schools represented.
>> Steve Turnidge: And that's Northwest.
>> Steve Malott: At Northwest University, and we have shorter schools than that. I don't think
it's about the duration so much as it is about all of these experiences that we've talked about. The
duration I think is a matter of convenience for the particular person -- I need to get through this
in seven months for whatever the reason is or I have a little more time, I want to do it in two
years. Or I can't quite life to go do the studio thing intently for 24 hours a day for four months,
because I have two kids and I've got a job. So there's just a bunch of extenuating circumstances
called life that kind of determine how people choose a pathway for going through school.
Everybody in this room has had to make those choices, every single person.
>> Steve Turnidge: So we found Shoreline's a two-year college.
>> Steve Malott: Northwest University is four years.
>> Steve Turnidge: So let's go down and give our durations. Steve? And do both.
>> Joe Reineke: Okay, so the Art Institute of Seattle is now just a four year -- well, it's a
bachelor's degree that you can do in 3.5 years, three years. Cornish College of the Arts is a fouryear bachelor's degree, as well.
>> Steve Barsotti: Seattle Academy of Recording Arts is nine and six months.
>> Steve Turnidge: Okay, good, so you can hit it and then hit the ground running.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: Yes, DigiPen offers four-year bachelor's degree and two years master's
degrees.
>> Steve Turnidge: So is that after the bachelor's?
>> Lawrence Schwedler: Well, currently, we do not have a master's degree in music and sound
design, but we have a master's degree in computer science and in digital arts and animation.
>> Marlie Pesek: Robert Lang Academy is a one-year program.
>> Steve Turnidge: Sweet, and I think that was our question number two. I have a cheat sheet.
I'm very happy that this is the case.
>>: I got one, too.
>>: I didn't get one.
>> Steve Turnidge: It was spread around, so there is homework. As above, so below, so we
have school.
>> Joe Reineke: Steve, can I add something to the school? There's something that occurs to me
about one of the things that happens at school. There's something about the path, not going to
school, where a kid shows up a studio, wins them over, has the drive, has the gumption, has the
ability to kind of really get things done. We had a kid at the Art Institute a while back who's
now working down with Skywalker Ranch, and that has nothing to do with me. That has nothing
to do with my program. That has everything to do with his sense of drive and ambition. And I
think the industry's full of people like that that have that ability to just get out there and get that
done. I find that the kids that I've had at the Art Institute overwhelmingly -- I'll condition that.
They're not all like that. And I think one of the benefits of the school is it gives somebody that
chance to bloom. It gives somebody the chance to make those mistakes. This is tying into what
we just talked about, but learn from those mistakes and grow into somebody that has that kind of
drive and ambition. If some of these kids were to hit the streets prior to these programs, they
would crash and burn pretty quickly. And I think that one of the benefits of school is that it
gives them that chance to find themselves, to develop, to grow and to become something more
than when they started, and that's a time-based thing. That's an experience-based thing, and it
requires them to have the drive to stick it out through school and to make that work into your
life, and it's not easy, and everybody here can probably attest to the balances that have to come
with being in school. It's not just, hey, I'll go to school today. There's a lot of other decisions.
>> Steve Turnidge: So generating a sense of independence is a baseline.
>> Joe Reineke: I'd just like to add to everything you just said. You learn how to be successful.
You learn how to do what it takes to do what it is that you want to do, and then it lets you look at
that longer view. This is going to take me four years to get through this. Okay, here are the
things that I need to do to put in that time to achieve that.
>> Steve Turnidge: And at the end, you look back, and you see the horrible work you did on
your first quarter compared to what you do, and even in our lives, you see what you did 10 years
ago.
>> Marlie Pesek: Well, mine was good.
>> Steve Turnidge: Oh, that's true. I'm just speaking for myself.
>> Steve Malott: I can for Marlie. She was good.
>> Steve Turnidge: Oh, that's right. Marlie went to Shoreline.
>> Marlie Pesek: Yes, I went to Shoreline Community College.
>> Steve Turnidge: And other people in the room, how many went to Shoreline here?
>> Steve Malott: One, two.
>>: I think three, actually.
>> Marlie Pesek: Steve was my tutor.
>> Steve Turnidge: And then actually Henry the soundman went to Shoreline, as well. That's
why I was thinking there would be ->> Steve Malott: See, he's a soundman.
>> Steve Turnidge: Yes, he's actually here. It's a fabulous thing to have him. Okay, so I think
that -- did that answer what programs does your school offer?
>> Steve Malott: No, that didn't answer that at all.
>> Steve Turnidge: Okay, do we want to start with what programs? Let me give a test to the
audience. How are we doing? Is this interesting?
>> Lawrence Schwedler: I don't see anybody sleeping yet.
>> Jim Elenteny: They're not going to say no, Steve.
>> Steve Turnidge: I know that, but you've got to just sort of make them -- anyway.
>> Marlie Pesek: To recap, education rules. That's what we just said.
>> Steve Turnidge: Yes, there is that. Okay, so what programs does your school offer? Let's
start at the other end again, still, because you have programs. What programs does your school
offer?
>> Jim Elenteny: Well, we've got a whole stack full of them here, if you'd like to see, but
Shoreline offers obviously many different degrees in the Music Technology Department. And so
we're kind of I think interesting in the sense that we have a separate Music Department sitting
right next to the Music Technology Department. We're all in the same building, and we get to
record all of their concerts and all of their performances. The Music Tech Department
specifically has a degree in digital audio engineering, two-year degree, a degree in electronic
music/MIDI composition, so more of a producer side of things. We have a degree in music tech
performance for students who want to maybe play more in ensembles but also learn the basics
about recording and how to work with bands. And the third one is -- the fourth one, excuse me,
is music tech merchandising, which is really more of a business degree. It incorporates a number
of classes from across campus in our business department, along with our music tech classes.
>> Steve Malott: Yes. I don't think you touched on the music classes enough, so I'm going to
say that, even though I'm representing Northwest University.
>> Steve Turnidge: Yes. Now you can give the Northwest rundown, too.
>> Steve Malott: There are a couple of music degrees from Shoreline in addition. There's a
bachelor's in music and also a fine arts degree in music at Shoreline. So yes -- so that's
important, I think to know.
>> Marlie Pesek: And the bachelor now, that's four years?
>> Steve Malott: We don't have a bachelor's degree. At Northwest University, it's a four-year
school. We have three focuses, a music degree, a music business degree and then a recording
arts degree, which focuses on music ministry. So all of the programs at Northwest in the Music
Department are all focused on worship ministry, music ministry, evangelistic ministry, and
there's a -- that is the complete emphasis of the university. The program at Northwest is actually
called Creatio, after creation, and so it's very ministry focused. It's not like we are talking about
the bible in all the classes, although there are certainly plenty of classes about the bible. But we
do talk about using the recording arts, the music ministry, the music degree, even the music
business, in relation to building the ministry. The college itself was founded by AG Church
about 85 or 90 years ago, and so it is -- it's an arm of the AG Church itself, so in that sense, it's
separate and different from the rest of the schools that are represented here, because the focus is
on Christianity and Jesus and music ministry. I certainly can say without much of a doubt that
people who aren't Christians don't feel very comfortable going to school at Northwest University.
It's a place that encompasses that community, and it's cloistered in that sense. It's opening, it's
will, but it's a Christian school, so just to put that out.
>> Steve Turnidge: Something just came up right before that of audio programs versus music
programs.
>> Steve Malott: Right, and there's the -- I think, and I'm sure that Jim agrees, as well. I'll speak
on his behalf. I think it's critically important that someone who's learning about the audio,
technology arts in relationship to being a recording or a live sound person has a deep, deep
knowledge of music theory and music performance. I can't stress that enough.
>> Jim Elenteny: I would go so far as to say that I took the job at Shoreline because I thought it
was so important. I was teaching at another school prior to that that didn't incorporate much
music theory, and when I saw how much music theory was required at Shoreline, it right away
got my attention.
>> Steve Turnidge: It's one of the pillars, really, of the programs.
>> Steve Malott: It's two years. You take music theory for two years. You can transfer to a
four-year school and have theory done.
>> Steve Turnidge: And that's interesting for some of the hands-on situations, because there's
probably not a lot of music theory taught, but there's a lot of music in your -- the recording
situations that students are allowed and encouraged to participate in. There's no shortage of
music that you're dealing with.
>> Marlie Pesek: Right, so pretty much the year is based on projects, so it's a fully hands-on,
project-based -- they're forced into being able to understand the musician.
>> Steve Turnidge: They have the opportunity. They have the opportunity, not the obligation -well, maybe the obligation.
>> Marlie Pesek: I kind of push them to work with live musicians as much as possible, not just
being stuck on your laptop, working with programs. That's all fine and good, but being able to
interact with musicians and have your chord chart there and going along with it, it's vital. But as
far as theory goes, for us, it's -- we really focus on the hands on with the equipment, and then we
provide tutoring of theory on top of that, if it's requested. We do encourage it, but right now,
we're kind of grappling with making that a requirement before you enter the program, because
having gone through these programs myself and also going to Berklee College of Music, it's
essential. So before you can even get accepted to Berklee, you take a test, and so we're thinking
about doing that.
>> Steve Turnidge: You have to have your vocabulary down.
>> Marlie Pesek: Yes, at least a basic knowledge. Like you have to know where the notes are
on the page, or maybe your circle of fifths. Yes.
>> Steve Turnidge: Let's jump over back to Steve, and we're in programs.
>> Steve Barsotti: Okay, so the Art Institute of Seattle actually has a whole host of design-based
programs like culinary and fashion and graphic design and so forth and so on. Specific to what
we're doing tonight, there is a bachelor's degree in audio production that had a history of being
an associate's degree. They just wrapped up admitting students to that degree, so that's being
taught out, and now it's just a four-year degree. The program is focused on audio production as
it relates to recording studios for music, sound for film, sound design, a little bit of gaming
audio, but not much. There is a thorough foundation in just the contents of the audio technology,
the contents of a studio, mixers and microphones and signal routing and all that fun stuff. The
way the program seems to be divvied up is the first two years is really that technical information,
and after two years, you go through a portfolio process, where you're in essence showing
competency on the technology. Do you know how to use this stuff? If you play something
you've recorded and we point out a mistake, do you know what tools you're supposed to be able
to use to fix that, and can you fix it? Can you hear the problem in the first place? The second
two years are designed to then -- and I like to put it in this kind of way. As a recording engineer,
and I'm going to say something understanding its implication, but as a recording engineer, you're
not always responsible for the content. You're a live sound engineer, you're a recording
engineer, there's a band that supplies the content. None of that's to take away from the artistry of
being a recording engineer, but there's sort of a conduit process that's happening there. What I
feel is going on in the second half of the process is we make the students more responsible for
the content, so you know how to use this technology, and you have other skill sets in music and
things like this. Now you start to create content for some kind of media. So by the end of that
two-year process, their portfolios are filled with work of working with sound for animation,
sound for film, videogames. Sometimes compositions, although the program, admittedly, is not
music heavy. It has two or three levels of music theory. So there is this understanding, and I
agree with this notion that if you're going to go into music production, you're going to go into
live sound, you're going to work with music, you really ought to know the language. If you're
going to go to Germany, speak German. So the first two years, the portfolios, these recordings
of mostly bands. The second two years, then they're creating content. They might have
compositions they've done. They're working with other media. And really, the push is to get
them to work with these other entities, not to just do it themselves isolated and making work.
Because if they're going to go out there into the world and work for somebody, they need to start
developing these relationships and developing this understanding of when you work in audio,
you work for somebody else. Rarely do you get to make your own decisions. So that's the Art
Institute's programs. Cornish, my participation there is adjunct, is for one class, fundamentals of
electronic music. It's a classical music program -- not classical music program, but it's a music
program, full-on music degree. They have a smaller section, and I'm interested in bringing them
up in the context of this gathering, where they've got a small studio, they're teaching some
students how to use that, and it becomes this other option. You're going to school to play music.
Like you were saying, what do you do after that? You know how to play guitar really well.
What does that mean? That's one potential path in terms of being a session musician or going
out there, being a recording artist or whatever it might be. They're adding some technology to
give these students exposures to other potential career paths, but it's a straight-up music degree
there. You have to go through trials to get in. You have to audition and the whole kit and
caboodle.
>> Steve Turnidge: Okay, Joe.
>> Joe Reineke: Yes, we offer audio engineering programs and game audio. And the teacher for
our game audio program is brilliant and has over 200 shipped titles in the marketplace.
>> Steve Turnidge: What's her name?
>> Joe Reineke: Jesse Holt. Do you know Jesse?
>> Steve Turnidge: I know her.
>> Joe Reineke: Yes. That's it.
>> Steve Turnidge: Thank you. And you're downtown? You're down in Pioneer Square?
>> Joe Reineke: Pioneer Square, yes.
>> Steve Turnidge: So there's that additional extension of learning of how to -- I work down
with Bob, actually, at Digital Harmony, which is 1st and Yesler. We were there from '97 to
2001, and from there I went and taught at Shoreline. But that's an education in itself, in just
getting around.
>> Marlie Pesek: Is it [Orphus], like you walk down some stairs to get there, kind of a steep
staircase?
>>: That's Robert's place.
>> Marlie Pesek: Well, yes, that too.
>> Joe Reineke: Yes. That's one way to get in, is into the side door.
>> Marlie Pesek: I feel like I did my senior high school job shadow project there. I haven't been
there for maybe 12 years.
>> Steve Malott: Was that [Terry McDonald's] place, Joe?
>> Joe Reineke: No.
>> Marlie Pesek: But were you there 12 years ago?
>> Joe Reineke: Yes, I've been there 14, almost 15 years.
>> Marlie Pesek: That'd be funny, if that's the place, because I think it is.
>> Steve Turnidge: It's a small world.
>> Marlie Pesek: No worries. Lawrence, DigiPen?
>> Lawrence Schwedler: So DigiPen's been around 26 years. Up until four years ago, they
offered four-year undergraduate degrees in computer science, digital arts, animation and game
design, and then 3.5 years ago, we launched two programs that I designed. One of them is music
and sound design, and it's probably the most relevant to this discussion, but I must emphasize, I
was telling Keith -- where's Keith? Just before the meeting that there's a companion that the
founder of the school, Claude Comair, who was the Chairman of Nintendo Software Technology,
where I was the audio director for 13 years -- because DigiPen is very much focused on
videogame production, as well as digital arts and animation, but particularly on videogames, that
on a videogame development team, you don't just need a content creator. You need a
programmer who can actually implement your digital audio. And as anybody who's played a
game knows, it's not a linear medium. It's not linear. So implementing is vastly different than
putting together a soundtrack. So these two programs are very different. One is a computer
science degree. It's a four-year degree to teach computer programmers the art of programming
for digital audio and digital signal processing. So not going to talk about that so much now,
because it's more a computer science degree. But the other one, which I designed, and it's
relevant to this whole discussion, I'm thinking about how you guys were talking about how
music was fundamental to audio engineering. And it's the common thread, and I've been doing
this little parlor game. Can I just try this real quick here? This is my latest iteration of it. Who
works or is involved in any way with audio, what they would think of as audio recording
engineering in any way, shape or form? Okay. Now, keep your hands up. Who of you who
have your hands up now have never played an instrument? Put your hands down if you have
never played an instrument. Okay, I don't think anybody's hand went down. Now, how many of
you have musical training of some kind, private lessons, playing in the school orchestra or band?
Anyway, there's my point, is that everybody in the audio engineering business almost exclusively
-- I think I know one person who isn't a musician, but everybody else is. So that's the common
ground, so designing a four-year undergraduate degree, I'm going to take a kid out of high school
who wants to be a musician, and they're going to give me four years of their life, and we haven't
gotten to money yet, but DigiPen's expensive. So you're talking about $13,800 per semester, two
semesters a year, four years. Do the math. I'm going to take over 100 grand of your money and
four years of your time, and I'm going to teach you to be a classical guitarist? No, I'm not going
to do that. But music is the common language, so what is it? So I designed a hybrid degree,
which is music performance, music composition, music theory, musicianship, all of the stuff that
you would get -- not all of the stuff -- much of what you would get in a four-year liberal arts
music degree program. And then we took out enough of it to make room for two other blocks,
and one of them is audio engineering and music technology. It's a big chunk, right? And then
the third chunk is design and implementation of music and sound for videogames. So those three
pieces now put together into a four-year program. It was my contention and our contention of
our program advisory committee that in good conscious we could say, okay, give us four years of
your life, give us 100 grand or more -- more. You now have -- hopefully, our first graduates
come this April, all seven of them, oh my gosh -- hire them, please. So the question is, what will
they be prepared for? And the contention was they'll be prepared for a career in music and
audio, somehow, some way, like we had to find our way. I think pretty much all of us, we had to
kind of make it up and figure it out. Well, to the degree that we could predigest some of this and
focus some of this experience, that's what the degree program is at DigiPen.
>> Steve Turnidge: Very intense.
>> Marlie Pesek: Yes, awesome.
>> Steve Turnidge: Do you feel you've gone through it, or do you want to do more on what your
program is?
>> Marlie Pesek: Yes, maybe I'll just describe it a little bit more. So in the one-year program,
we focus obviously on audio engineering and production. There's a lot of focus on analog
recording, so our tape machines, tape is coming back, if people didn't know that, but it is. The
big artists are always asking for a tape machine, but then we also have the Duality board, which
is half digital, half analog.
>> Steve Turnidge: It's an SSL board.
>> Marlie Pesek: Yes, SSL.
>> Steve Turnidge: You have three SSL boards.
>> Marlie Pesek: Yes, we do.
>> Steve Turnidge: And how many people have been to Robert Lang Studios on a tour? How
many people haven't, actually? It's --
>> Marlie Pesek: Okay, let's go.
>>: You must go. You must go.
>> Steve Turnidge: I'd have to give a little bit of a discussion of what this thing is. This man
started 42 years ago with a garage on a hillside -- yes.
>> Robert Lang: This thing was with [Rick Chan] and [Charlie Morgan] [indiscernible] build
me a console, and they said you're nuts. Buy a Yamaha [DM] 1000, right? That's where it
started, with [Charlie Morgan] or [Rick Chan] and their 12th Avenue, the foot of Capitol Hill,
they had a little workshop up the set of steps.
>> Steve Turnidge: A routine thing that comes up a lot with Robert Lang is he's being told he's
nuts, a lot, because starting with this little garage, and let's see if I can abstract your story. He
started digging into the hillside, and didn't stop, and now there's a bunch of basketball court-sized
rooms inside the hillside, underneath his house. This, with pretty much three major studios, you
could say, because they've got the big boards. The Foo Fighters, the gold records on the wall tell
a lot of the story, Peter Frampton, Foo Fighters, Heart, etc., tons of things.
>>: Nirvana.
>> Steve Turnidge: Pardon me?
>>: Nirvana.
>> Steve Turnidge: Oh, yeah, them. And but just going through there, it's sort of like an
adventure game in itself. It's very much like a video game. Okay, now you've come to the
Duality room. Whoa, how did that happen? And then upstairs in the house there's a 72-channel
SSL?
>> Robert Lang: 72 G series.
>> Steve Turnidge: That's just happening, that's being worked on by the students there. And so
this whole -- it's a work in progress, the room the size of the basketball court, that's only half of
it. The other half of it looks like a goldmine or some sort of a dig.
>>: The dwarves were at it.
>> Steve Turnidge: And you get these strange wooden stairs and a conveyor belt that gets all the
rocks out.
>>: The mixer.
>> Steve Turnidge: It's really stunning, and I had been there 17 years ago to do a project, and at
that time, we walked up a bunch of planks and looked out over this pit, which became that room,
and now it's continuing to be remarkable.
>> Robert Lang: 1600 yards of sand.
>> Steve Turnidge: That's cubic yards?
>> Robert Lang: It's about 160 dump trucks.
>> Steve Turnidge: 160 dump trucks out, and it hasn't fallen down. Concrete is his material.
>> Marlie Pesek: Let me finish.
>> Steve Turnidge: I got excited. I was actually going to bring up Ron Jones as an opportunity
coming up, too.
>> Marlie Pesek: And that's what I was going to say.
>> Steve Turnidge: And so as far as evolution of these things, we have someone who couldn't be
here tonight but wanted to is there's someone new that's moved into the area is Ron Jones. Ron
Jones you may know if you're a Family Guy fan, is the composer for Family Guy, as well as one
other guy. And he's been doing it -- he also did the first two seasons of Star Trek: The Next
Generation and American Dad.
>> Steve Malott: He's a composer.
>> Steve Turnidge: He's a composer. I'm sorry. He's a composer. He has over 40,000 works,
and so he was in LA for 37 years. He grew up around Seattle, went to Portland, went down to
LA -- 37 years, wants to retire back home. He got a 22-acre compound in Stanwood that has a
full baseball field and auto racetrack, plus a big garage, which he's turning into a full world-class
studio, and they're going to be doing movies there. And I just talked to him the other night, and
he has master classes -- that's another sort of school place. He has master classes every month.
I'm going to be doing a master class on mastering there one month from today, on the 12th. And
I introduced Ron and Robert, and when Ron saw this half-basketball court, half potential, he's
saying, well, now we can put in a dubbing stage for movies here, and I think it's a brilliant idea.
So these are the things that are coming up in our area that one of the biggest questions about why
do you need an audio school is what are you going to do with the people you mint? Do they
have any career potentials? And around Seattle, I think that we're actually opening up the
opportunity for career potentials. So anyway, that's just a little -- he wanted to be here, but he
had to go down. He's the band leader for Seth MacFarlane's band, and they had a couple of
shows here. And so anyway, there's that. Marlie?
>> Marlie Pesek: Thank you, Steve.
>> Steve Turnidge: I derailed. My apologies, there you go.
>> Marlie Pesek: No, that's awesome. Thank you. So with that said, we're hoping to branch off
into music for -- audio for film and audio for gaming, so this might kind of lead into one of the
other questions. I'm not sure which one, but why are studios having education programs these
days? I think that the industry has changed so much over the last 10, 15 years with technology
that people can make great-sounding demos or recordings in their bedroom, so the jobs for
engineers are becoming fewer and fewer, or just less. They're getting less money.
>> Steve Turnidge: The demand goes down.
>> Marlie Pesek: The demand goes down, and yeah. So to branch off, to use the space in the
studio to branch off into film and also into audio for gaming is something we're definitely
gearing towards. And it opens up the market to our studios. We can't just bring them through a
legendary recording studio and say, okay, you're going to be Butch Vig, or you're going to be
this 1% of the music industry. We have to give them real opportunities.
>> Steve Turnidge: But what you are going to be, and this is probably with Joe's, as well, is
you're going to be familiar with a world-class recording studio, where other people that just walk
in aren't going to know where the mic cabinet is and where you put this cable and you find these
things.
>> Marlie Pesek: Well, that, and learning how to maintain the creative vibe. The reason that
people come to these kind of eclectic, unique studios is their creative juices are flowing, and
they're feeling spiritual in that place. You can't be, oh, crunching numbers with the console as
your musician is sitting there, ready to drop their best take. So that's part of it, too, kind of on a
very regular basis, for a year straight, just hundreds and hundreds of hours, interacting with
musicians and sitting in on client sessions, and just having that real-world experience right out
the gate.
>> Steve Turnidge: In addition to your three SSL rooms, you also have a thing called the Flight
Simulator. Can you describe what that is?
>> Marlie Pesek: So Robert put together the Flight Simulator. It's probably kind of our version - Robert's version, because everything is a little unique with how Robert puts things together, but
it's kind of like our DAW, our digital audio workstation. And there's a little patch bay. It
basically simulates what you'd be doing in one of the main control rooms, so kind of your
launching pad.
>> Steve Turnidge: Joe, do you have something like -- what is a project -- when someone comes
into your class, what's their arc and how are they addressed?
>> Joe Reineke: Well, we start from the starting line, and we're going to kind of fold this into is
there an internship program at your school? Because I find this very interesting, because we've
gotten a lot of interns. This is one of the reasons we started this school in the first place, because
our studio's successful, been around a long time. We're a staple in the community, and we've
gotten interns for years coming through our door, just under-educated. And they're coming in
from these big-box schools, your Full Sails. Love you, but -- and not the Seattle one, but other
ones, too. They're coming in from all over the place, and they're a liability to us. And what we
want to do is train people to be an asset to a business, not a liability, because hey, they can come
in and we don't require internships. This is what -- so we want them to have a quality experience
at another studio and not just sit there and make coffee [indiscernible]. You know what I mean?
I want someone that's going to be useful to what -- and helpful to our clients.
>> Steve Turnidge: So people skills are probably a very large part of this.
>> Joe Reineke: And sometimes I talk about this a little bit. This has little to do with recording
and everything to do with people, because we're not an island. I guarantee it. You're not going
to be a success by yourself. No way. Forget about it. Take it to the bank, fact, you won't do it.
You need a team. You need allies in this business. Guarantee it. So we don't think that -- we
encourage folks to get an internship after, but only when they have something to offer to
somebody else, because it's been real challenging, and it's tough. I can imagine it's just as tough
on a student as it is on the studio owner or the people. They're frustrated, because they don't
know shit. And I'm frustrated, because they can't do anything.
>> Steve Turnidge: What kind of skills are you generating for your students?
>> Joe Reineke: Everything. This is like the Harvard of audio engineering. They know this
thing really, really well.
>> Steve Turnidge: The mixing boards, tape or Pro Tools?
>> Joe Reineke: Mixing board, we have a learning partner. We're doing full Pro Tools
certifications and Ableton Live, and full SSL console automation. Everything, like from mic
placement, what's the right mic to use. Seriously, these kids don't even know what mic they like
on a kick drum and where to place it on a drum, how to tune a drum, what it's like to actually
work in a really fast-paced environment. And you have sink or swim, man.
>> Steve Turnidge: How big are your classes?
>> Joe Reineke: We have eight or less, so they won't get lost in the shuffle of the sea of when
they have a question, we can answer it and kind of address what they're into. And I really like
what the gentleman over here was talking about.
>> Steve Turnidge: That's Jim.
>> Joe Reineke: Yes, Jim. What you were talking about, they learn from each other, and it's
absolutely true. Students, everybody learns from everybody else. When you cross-pollinate
these genres, it's like, oh, yeah, that's how you do that. It's exactly the experience that we're
seeing there. I've talked enough.
>> Steve Turnidge: That's good. That's excellent. So, Lawrence, there's an interesting story
about career day that you've had, where instead of having prospective employers coming in,
making booths, you have students with projects and the employers go around to those, and
something came of that that was pretty interesting.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: Well, apropos of the talk about the importance of particularly team
collaboration and people skills that are required to do anything, certainly in a recording studio,
certainly on a development team, it's all about collaboration and people skills and
communication and working together. So DigiPen has had a tradition since I don't know when it
started, but many years ago, because the students in just about every degree program from their
first semester of their eight semesters, they're on a game team or a film team, but most of them
are on game teams -- and they're making games, as a group. So by the time they get to their
junior year, they're on teams of anywhere from five or six up to 25 people, and so people on
these teams will be maybe -- they'll include programmers, designers, artists and composer-sound
designers. And so what they historically have done is our career fair is each team presents a
booth with their game project, and then we invite industry and pretty much everybody comes
now, being Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony, Bungee, Blizzard, all the big companies and the little
ones, too. And they just go around and they look at every team's game. And so I think the one
you're talking about Steve was some years ago, they came and there was a DigiPen team called
Narbacular Drop, and it was a cool game. And in the game, you had this gun and you would
shoot, and you wouldn't shoot a bullet. It would shoot this -- it would open up this portal that
you could then jump into and go into another realm. And anyway, Gabe Newell from Valve
came by and saw it, and he hired the whole team, and that became the game Portal. So if you
look at the student game Narbacular Drop -- I don't know if it's still available for downward. All
DigiPen's games are all for free public downward. It was that game. Valve tweaked it up, but
they hired the whole team, and then some years later, they did it again, with a DigiPen teamed
called Power of Paint or Tag. I can't remember. Anyways, it was a paint gun game, and that
became Portal 2, which is out there. So the idea of having -- you're talking about the
collaborative learning or the cohort learning. We joke about it. I'm looking at Greg Dixon, my
colleague at DigiPen, where these teams take on a life of their own, and a lot of the collaborative
-- and I think of it almost as collaborative learning -- happens in the big team spaces on the
second and third floors. And there's things that the instructors -- we only learn about them after
the fact. And then what happens after a certain amount of years is some stuff becomes
institutional knowledge, and we don't actually have to teach it in the classrooms anymore. They
learn how to implement various aspects of anywhere -- right now, the latest thing in the last few
years has been audio middleware, right? For some of you involved in games know, with
programs like Audiokinetic Wwise and FMOD Studio, and these are big, deep, rich software
suites that lie between the composer sound designer and the game audio programmer. And they
allow the sound designer to do real-time mixing of a game, and that's historically been the
challenge of a videogame, because the example I was giving I think Marlie and Robert when
they were visiting the other day is imagine if you were mixing a record, and every time you said,
okay, I want a little more kick drum, so instead of just moving the fader, you would write an
email to the guy to say, okay, move the fader up 1.5 dB. And then the next day, you would get
the mix back and you'd listen to it and go, oh, that was too much. Bring it back down about
halfway, split the difference, and then you'd wait another day. That's how -- we call it over-thefence sound design has been happening. You create assets, you deliver them. You throw them
over the fence, and then the programmers implement it. They give you back the game build.
You play it, you listen to it.
>> Steve Turnidge: Sounds a lot like punch cards from back.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: Right, a big stack of punch cards for 3.2 seconds of music.
>> Steve Turnidge: Wait for the program to come back.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: Yes, so anyway, the team experience and the collaborative learning is
really the heart of it. And I think it's common to it sounds like all of our experience with an ideal
educational environment, where the students are actually -- you have to have the foundational
learning, but you also have to have the hands-on stuff. Without the hands-on stuff, it's read a
book about how to write a bicycle. Only going to get you so far.
>> Joe Reineke: Well said, and thumbs up on the soft skills, because then it's everything.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: It is everything.
>> Joe Reineke: It really is everything in this business, communication and soft skills. If you
aren't a good communicator, it's tough to get what you need out of the artist.
>> Marlie Pesek: I just think it's so amazing the model you have, to have that exhibition for
potential employers to kind of scout out teams. That's amazing. That's something I really want
to copy.
>> Steve Turnidge: That's another reason that we're here, actually, is so that the collateral
learning -- that's a good phrase, I like it -- can occur amongst these guys. So there's something, I
got a conversion experience recently to high-res audio, because I started listen to TIDAL,
TIDAL hi-fi, and it made a difference. I indoctrinated Keith in this, and what it felt like, and
actually, Steve was just over recently. I've been -- and Bob. One at a time, I'm getting people to
share what I've learned, and what I feel like, and this happens in the school, too, is that talking
about high-res audio is sort of like talking about colors in a monochrome world. And so, yes,
let's talk about red or green. Yes, that's nice, but everything's black and white. Until you
actually experience this, it's oh, that's just hearsay, and then I went through it, and because my
parents were evangelists, I start proselytizing, so it happens. And there's another story about like
I think it's artificial intelligence, where you have an expert on color that has never left a black
and white room, and studying how to ride a bike, but never been on a bike, for instance. And the
story is they step outside, they actually see color for the first time and how impactful that is.
And I think one of the things we're trying to do is bring color into the lives of these students and
get them to actually experience what it takes to make what they love happen. It's sort of like also
the backstage of a theatrical presentation. From the front, it looks like the records you get, you
drop it, there's one thing and you get this experience. But when you go behind, there's a lot of
mess that's required in order to make the actual production. So that's -- I see this happening.
>> Marlie Pesek: Yes, and included in the tuition for our program, we have five days of studio
time, so our students, we push them to --
>> Steve Turnidge: And five days of studio time that is there's to do with -- they can have
someone come in and hire the house. They can keep the money.
>> Marlie Pesek: They bring in a client, and that client pays a studio fee or an engineer fee and a
producer fee, whatever the fee the student works out with their client, and they get to pocket that,
so it's a way to earn back your tuition.
>> Steve Turnidge: It also teaches them how to bring in Paul McCartney into the studio.
>> Marlie Pesek: Yes, that's number one. But no, so to push them into -- and not all students
take advantage of this, which is really sad to us.
>> Steve Turnidge: I wonder if they can trade it off?
>> Lawrence Schwedler: Are they giving it away? Because I'll take it.
>> Marlie Pesek: Yes, to the other students.
>> Steve Turnidge: You got a pool here?
>>: A voucher. I'll give you three days.
>> Marlie Pesek: So there's different ways that you could work it, and we help facilitate that and
teach them how to do a project from start to finish, including pre-production, but it's a really
great opportunity for them to do exactly what you're saying. They have something in their head,
what they want to hear. The first day is really rocky, usually. The student is freaking out, and
you just remind them, chill out, because if you're not calm, you're not going to get a good
performance. So it's kind of being a counselor through those first four or five hours, and then
hopefully the next following four days are smooth sailing, and they come out a totally different
person. So it's -- it's an invaluable experience.
>> Steve Turnidge: And they get to learn scheduling, as well.
>> Marlie Pesek: Yes, exactly.
>> Steve Turnidge: Again, the intangible , the sidecars to all of these things.
>> Marlie Pesek: Yes, it's a 10-hour studio day. You need to get it done in five days.
Otherwise, you're breaking the budget, so you need to know your stuff. You need to know how
to troubleshoot, and we're upstairs if you have questions.
>> Steve Turnidge: Any ideas on these things? Should we jump back into another one? There's
the intern question came up. Do we want to work our way through those who didn't comment on
what are your thoughts on interns and their place in the world?
>> Jim Elenteny: I think internships are super-important. I think they're a good transitional
point between if you're coming out of school and getting some actual real-world experience. So
getting the actual being in this fast-paced environment. Somebody mentioned something about
just not being fast enough, and that's the next step. Once you get into school and you get this
information under your fingers and you get it in your brain, then doing it in real time in what's
required, that's a whole other world. And I think it's super-important for students to be able to do
that. And I'm kind of looking around the room here, and I'm realizing that Shoreline has a lot of
interns in places that are affiliated with a lot of the people here, and I'm actually really, really
proud about that. I'm proud that our students go on to -- I've got students who went to DigiPen.
I've got students who are at Cornish now, and who have gone onto the next step on that side. I've
got students who are in Robert's program right now. I've got students who are interning for Ron
Jones. I've got one guy who's now the head engineer over at London Bridge Studios, because he
was an intern first and then he went through it. I've got a student of mine I just sent over to Andy
Meyer. I've never even met Andy Meyer, but I know that he was looking for people, and we sent
somebody his way. I don't know how that's going, but we're sending people out in different
directions, so I think it's great, and I don't think you can have too much of it.
>> Steve Turnidge: So it's really double edged, is not only getting experience, but actually being
able to make an impression.
>> Jim Elenteny: It's a professional exposure, and if you make that impression, that's
networking. That's moving forward.
>> Steve Turnidge: And inculcating a concept of how maybe of service as compared to what
can I get from you?
>> Jim Elenteny: And I also would say that I know students that have gotten internships, and it
hasn't worked. They just weren't the right fit, or they weren't the right place in time in their life
for that job, and that's a good experience for them, as well, because then they can realize, all
right, this is what it's actually like in the real world to do this. Do I want to pursue this further or
no?
>> Steve Turnidge: Maybe tune it a little bit. Maybe not such a direct in the flame, maybe a
support.
>> Steve Malott: Northwest is a little bit unique in that we really only have three -- we'll have
four, five instructors. Three of us are adjunct, so we're not full time. The way that internships
work with the Creatio program is the faculty introduces students to people that they know who
may be seeking an intern. A tremendous number, 90% or more of the student that we place in
internships from Northwest, are in the church community. So as amazing as it sounds, and as
staggering to me every day -- I just got the latest whatever trade rag it was. And in addition to
that, there was a publication that was strapped into the plastic bag, [indiscernible], about houses
of worship. There's a gigantic marketplace in the worship ministry business for audio
engineering, all the way from AV installation to doing live sound and traveling with world
evangelistic ministries and everything in between. I was talking with Steve Smith, who is the
program head, this morning at our Creatio program, and he was not able to come tonight, but he
said, basically, Steve, what you need to tell them is that we don't really have any problems
placing our students in internships or in jobs. People are waiting for them to get out of school to
come to these churches and to help grow ministries. Because it's evangelistic in nature, we're not
necessarily sending students to places where there are jobs. We're sending students to places
where people are trying to start churches, and so that approach to the audio business with regards
to the world ministry is a completely different approach than what most of us at the table are
doing industrially, with introducing students to friends or having collaborations with partnerships
in business in the secular world. So that's not to say that we don't place people -- we've placed
people at Microsoft and other places like that, but most of the students at Northwest University
are going to go into ministry. That's why they're going to an Assembly of God Church school,
and it seems to me like 30% of them have parents who are in the pastoral staff in the church
somewhere, so they're coming up through generations of people that have been in the church,
and it's multiplying in that way. So it's a little bit different approach, and consequently, the
results are a little bit different for students, but they still have the same enthusiasm and the
excitement as the secular students that I see as Shoreline and I'm sure that everyone else on the
panel sees in their schools. And so, you know, it's a wonderful time to be involved in the audio
business. It's way better now than it was when I started a long time ago and when Bobby Lang
started a long time ago and when lots of people in this room started, because there are so many
more opportunities to place audio. That Internet thing, I don't think that's going to go away, and
there seems to be audio on every part of it, everywhere.
>> Steve Turnidge: And I'm an idealist that I think the quality will out, and I think now that we
have the opportunity, once people see the color of the high-res audios and these capabilities, then
it goes back to the production, producing it in i6 24 all the way through, and that builds it. I
think it's happening with me. I had to change my whole mastering setup, actually, to deal with
high-res audio once I got the bug. So, Joe and Marlie, since you now have students, do you still
take interns, or are the students the interns?
>> Marlie Pesek: So we have an internship program and an education program. Actually,
[Ariel] is an awesome intern with us. She went to Evergreen College in their audio program, and
now she often is helping me with business, the business side of things and studio operations, but
also, we try to give our interns opportunities down in the studios, and to sit in on sessions. I
think that a lot of interns come in -- a lot of our interns come from the Arizona Conservatory of
Recording Arts, and I don't know how that connection happened, but it's been a connection that
Robert's had for many years, and so they're always trying to give us people that have moved up
to Seattle, usually to come -- they want to be at Robert Lang Studios for someone that's been
there, like the Foo Fighters or whatever, throughout the history. It's just kind of a legendary spot
that people move to Seattle to be a part of. And so we try to take interns as much as possible.
Right now, we have three, and they kick ass every day. We have interns there every day except
for Sunday, when we try to take a break, but it never really happens.
>> Steve Turnidge: And how many students do you have enrolled right now?
>> Marlie Pesek: So right now, we have 24 students enrolled. About 14 of them are active. The
rest of them kind of come just for certain instructed classes or they are redeeming their studio
days. But our interns are invaluable. And I think something that Joe was saying earlier, we
interview them quite intensely, because you don't want to have dead weight around.
>> Steve Turnidge: You want to bring in assets. They kick asset.
>> Marlie Pesek: Exactly.
>> Joe Reineke: Tough room, Steve.
>> Steve Turnidge: We're almost ready for a break, anyway.
>> Marlie Pesek: We're lucky enough right now to have three interns that are so incredible, and
like I said, we try to give them as many audio opportunities as possible, and they're there.
They've been through school, but they want to know what studio life is like, so they're there three
or four times a week, and we're showing them all facets of the business. Yeah.
>> Steve Turnidge: Joe?
>> Joe Reineke: We're really selective on the interns these days. Here's the deal. I'm not going
to train an intern to work in the studio just to split in two months. It's not really what I'm -- I'm
not into it. It's really hard. Or just like ->>: Energy vampires, as well.
>> Joe Reineke: So we're really, really selective on the interns that we'll take on board, because
I consider it a commitment to them, and I don't take it lightly. But they have to show a
commitment to us, too, at the same time. So it's this thing like -- and it's got to be the right fit.
They've got to be a people person that are flexible, okay to be around for 10 hours.
>>: Willing.
>> Joe Reineke: Can you imagine being stuck in a control room with someone who was, like
you said, an energy vampire? No, no. That's not this place, and that's not the kind of experience
we're going to give to our clients, either, because that will rub off on a client so quick, and it
could just ->> Steve Turnidge: Exactly. It's what I actually call poison in the milkshake. Everything's
coming along fine and then, oh, gee, what was that? Where did that come from?
>> Marlie Pesek: That's one of the things with the students, too, having a student program in a
fully operating professional studio. A lot of students can go through a two-year or a four-year
program, and they get in the control room, and they're driving everyone nuts.
>> Robert Lang: Out comes the duct tape.
>> Marlie Pesek: Yeah, Robert's got his duct tape handy.
>> Steve Turnidge: It's a special class.
>>: Silence is golden. Duct tape, it's silver.
>> Marlie Pesek: So to get ->>: Did you just make that up?
>> Steve Turnidge: No. On that ->> Marlie Pesek: Studio etiquette.
>> Steve Turnidge: Studio etiquette. Studio and life etiquette. I wrote a couple of books. One's
Desktop Mastering. One's Beyond Mastering, and there is a section on studio and life etiquette,
and it talks about how if you're in a situation, usually, the first person that talks is the least
reasonable one that should be talking, and if that's you, be careful. Pay attention to this. We're
up at 9:00 here. We're going to take maybe 10-ish minutes. We've got some cookies in the back,
some water, just very high-end fare. I hope it's not too rich for anybody.
>> Marlie Pesek: You baked them.
>> Steve Turnidge: Actually, I went and bought them, because nobody else was able to. I'm
wondering, is there anything that we've covered this first part that anyone wants to make some
comments on that they didn't get something out that they want to.
>> Joe Reineke: I just want to mention one thing about the internship idea is that I think for my
part, in a more academic environment, I'm very sensitive to the idea that the classrooms are not
the real world, and I think that the internship program becomes that way in which students can
have access to see what it's really like. We have faculty that are from the real world, and there's
the war stories, but you have an environment that's not unlike this in some situations, or even in
the studio, it's just not the same thing as being in a session, being in that environment. So I think
the internship programs are for a program such as what the Art Institute's got going on is crucial.
And yes, there are dangers in that. It is required if you're at the Institute. There are dangers in
terms of mismatch, in terms of relationship problems between the Institute and businesses in
terms of are we sending the right people? Do these people have their heads screwed on straight?
>> Steve Turnidge: It's not who you know. It's who you're introduced by, and you have that
responsibility.
>> Joe Reineke: And I have that responsibility. So we've got a lot of success stories, though,
and I think it's a matter of finding that right fit and understanding expectations. Like Joe's
expectations are very clear in terms of what he needs for an intern. We have different
relationships with different people. Clatter & Din has been a fabulous place, because they do
want students to make coffee. They do want students to make fruit bowls, and for them, it's
about step back, be useful, make the environment for the session comfortable and appealing to
the client, but they don't have any expectation of technical expertise, and nor do they have any
notion that the interns are going to have anything to do with the technical expertise. That's what
they pay people at Clatter & Din for, right? But the student gets this opportunity to watch this
interaction, to sit back, and if they know what they're doing, be the fly on the wall and not
attempt to try and participate.
>> Steve Turnidge: We have a fly on the wall.
>> Joe Reineke: And just observe that relationship, that etiquette, that process, and there's been
a lot of things said up here about what that environment is like when you're in the heat of it. And
the classroom just isn't that. It can never be that. So I think that that internship process is, for
me, very much about that idea. It's also about networking. I tell the students that your internship
is more than likely not going to be your job. It's the introduction to the people in this industry
who are really doing this, and if they like you -- if you go to Robert's place and he likes you, he
might not hire you. Probably won't hire you, but if Robert says he likes you, that carries weight.
>> Steve Turnidge: Again, it's not who you know. It's who you're introduced by, and
opportunities come up. Pardon me?
>> Robert Lang: That can be a problem, too, though.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: Steve, before we break, just quick because I want to contrast
something, and I think that's all very true, but just sort of a different angle on it. In all of our
four-year degree programs, in the junior and senior years, students have the option. They're not
required to, but they have the option to do I think up to two or maybe even three semesters of
internship. And it's actually in the course catalog as a course, and we only accept paid
internships. Our internships, they're actually not allowed to make coffee. They can take an
internship like that, but they won't get course credit for it. It may be a distinction of the
videogame industry versus the audio recording, the studio recording environment, and I get all
that business of meeting people and making the connections and that is essential. But at
DigiPen, our internships are you are required to be doing the work that you are trained to do, and
you get paid for it and you get course credit for it. Actually, if you do that, then it actually is in
lieu of one of our sound design projects.
>> Steve Turnidge: Do they get to keep the money? Or does that go back to DigiPen?
>> Lawrence Schwedler: It's basically the employer pays for that student to take that course, is
kind of how it works.
>> Steve Turnidge: They're paying their tuition at that time.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: The point is it is another class, and specifically by the terms of our
accreditation body, it has to be that. So we're not allowed to give course credit towards a degree
for an internship, unless the student is doing -- if it's for the CS degree, they have to be coding.
In fact, game testing doesn't count. We don't give internship credit. Oh, really, you're going to
be a tester at Nintendo. That's great. You might want to do that. That would probably be a good
thing, but it's not an academic internship. So there's a distinction there.
>> Steve Turnidge: Interesting.
>> Marlie Pesek: What's the difficulty level of students finding those specific internships that
will pay locally?
>> Lawrence Schwedler: Right, so it depends on the program, and because, like I say, our
program is new, so we've only had a few. We had one of our guys, who was actually a Shoreline
graduate, [Ned Eifert], he did an internship, it was -- actually, apropos of this distinction, it was
actually a summer job. So he got paid to be on a Microsoft team. They're redoing all of their
sound libraries for all their game. It's a huge job, metadata entry, I think. I don't know. He
couldn't talk about it. It was NDA. And they wanted to hire him, and to his credit, he said, no,
I've got another year and a half to go. So I didn't expect to see him again, but he came back. So
we have people probably working with Monolith right now, big game developer here, and Brian
Pamintuan, I talked to him. I said, do you want some interns? He said, we've never had sound
design interns. We've never had sound design interns. I said, well, make some. So he worked
on his boss, and now he's going to open up a couple positions for us. So this is all very new, and
we're having to I call it the Gumby train. Remember, Gumby, the track would always appear
right in front of the train, you never knew where it could go. So that's kind of what this is like
with videogames. It's all new. We don't have 100 years of history. We've got like 20.
>> Marlie Pesek: So it's kind of like a preliminary job placement.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: It is, and for the CS programs and the art programs, many of our
interns end up working at that place. It's really a trial for employment, is what it is.
>> Steve Turnidge: That I think was really quite fabulous. Thank you all, and thank you for
hanging with us. Let's take 10, 12 minutes. There's restrooms around the other side of this
complex here, and have cookies. I'll go in search for napkins. And afterwards, when we come
back, there's a small pile of door prizes that we will be picking for right before we begin again.
All right, let's have a round of applause. See you back in 10.
>> Steve Turnidge: Okay, welcome back. It's been a joy, and it's about to be even more so.
Marlie, will you please be our assistant here? Well, that's actually after -- that's about 10:30.
Okay, we've got one, two, three, four, five fabulous prizes here. The first one says, I'm here
because you broke something, and it has a small word, geek, on the back. I can actually relate
with it. I was IT for 10 years. It felt that way. So let's start with that. It has a retail value of
$12.95. Make sure that you actually report it to your taxes if you win.
>>: [Indiscernible].
>> Steve Turnidge: It looks like it's been used. It's worn. So up here, from someplace in the
middle of the stack or whatever. I mixed them up. Who did we get? Jayney Wallick.
>> Marlie Pesek: Jayney.
>> Steve Turnidge: She is around many people who do break things.
>> Jayney Wallick: Thank you.
>> Steve Turnidge: So next here is one of my -- Burning Sky Records, I had a record label.
This is a tribute to the Posies, three-disk, 45-track album of bands from around the world, and
this is one of the ways that I got business, was having them each. I mastered for that. Turn your
mic on. There you go. That way, all of your witticisms and barbs can be seen. Okay, for a
beautiful escape ->> Marlie Pesek: It's really high.
>> Steve Turnidge: So you can't see. What do we got? Past member. This is someone that
doesn't have an -- hch1969@hotmail.com. Someone did not put their name.
>> Marlie Pesek: Oh no.
>>: What's the email address again?
>> Steve Turnidge: Is it you? There you go. Write your ->>: I didn't write my name.
>> Steve Turnidge: But what's great is you get some of my work there, and so if you could write
tee shirt on the back of that, and posies.
>> Marlie Pesek: Oh, yes, of course.
>> Steve Turnidge: Now, being at Microsoft, we have the highly prized Windows 10 Pro, and
we have the highly prized Office Home and Student 2016. This is almost free, but it's in a box
here. Which one should we start with? Should we start with the Office or the Windows 10?
Because we've got the grand prize coming up.
>> Marlie Pesek: Office 10.
>> Steve Turnidge: Office, Office. Actually, this is one I hope I get.
>>: He keeps doing that to her.
>> Marlie Pesek: I know. Why is it so high, Steve? [Dana], is there a [Dana]? [Dana Burke],
yes.
>> Dana Bork: I'll tell you what, I work here, so I'm going to give that gift away, because I can
get that for cheap.
>> Marlie Pesek: To Dana number two.
>> Steve Turnidge: Is that valid?
>> Marlie Pesek: I suppose.
>> Steve Turnidge: Because we have to find Dana in here.
>> Marlie Pesek: Oh, okay.
>> Steve Turnidge: No, don't do it, because it didn't happen. We can put it back in for this. It'll
be justice if you get drawn again.
>> Marlie Pesek: Just keep it down. There we go. I won't look. I'll close my eyes. I'm
blindfolded. [David Johnston].
>>: No, neither.
>> Steve Turnidge: He works here as well. Okay, we'll just keep it out for now, but thank you
for passing. That's kind.
>> Marlie Pesek: Greg Dixon.
>> Steve Turnidge: That works.
>> Marlie Pesek: There we go.
>> Steve Turnidge: There we go. Thank you for putting the information right. Next, the
Windows 10 Pro, which I won't say what I did. I took off the nag ware of that recently, and
actually, I was on tech support with Microsoft all day today, because there's an 85-gigabyte file
that will not delete.
>> Marlie Pesek: Off of this?
>> Steve Turnidge: Delete it, comes back up. Windows 8.1, it was very bad. It was a Googlederived problem.
>> Marlie Pesek: Oh, it's me!
>> Steve Turnidge: This is why I was holding it up. This is why we were holding it up.
>> Marlie Pesek: Do I want this? I don't know what you just said.
>> Steve Turnidge: No, no, this has nothing to do with that. This will be good.
>> Marlie Pesek: Should I keep it?
>> Steve Turnidge: You should write it. You don't work here, so you can keep it. We'll put
everyone that works here back, because we have this very high-end, hardcover book.
>>: Andy Farnell. For you Pd addicts, this is a great book.
>> Steve Turnidge: Brought by Steve Malott. Thank you very much.
>> Marlie Pesek: Thank you, Steve.
>> Steve Turnidge: And let's find out, how high do I have to put it now for you not to pick
yourself again?
>> Marlie Pesek: Okay. I'm not in there anymore.
>> Steve Turnidge: Okay. Oh. I don't know which one counts, but I think it's the one in your
hand.
>> Marlie Pesek: [Rick Chin].
>> Steve Turnidge: Don't say we never gave you anything. Sir, thank you so much for your
service, and there you go.
>>: It's one of our required texts, so a good book, good book.
>> Steve Turnidge: He wants to be shared. Share, share.
>> Steve Malott: So much I got to.
>> Steve Turnidge: Curious, are you leaving, or we still have more?
>>: No, I'm just ->> Steve Turnidge: Okay, good. Well, then let's get back in here. We've got a couple of
questions that came up during the break that I'd like to touch on. First of all, [Kylie], do you
have anything, because you guys have got to catch a ferry.
>> Kylie Sheer: I already covered it.
>> Steve Turnidge: You covered it. What did you find out?
>> Kylie Sheer: Scholarships, yes.
>>: Experience level.
>> Kylie Sheer: Yes, experience level. You can start from ground zero and just work your way
up.
>> Steve Turnidge: Okay, and that's -- Bob?
>> Bob Moses: I have a question related to hers.
>> Steve Turnidge: Do you want the -- let's do this. Wait until the light turns green. There it is.
>> Bob Moses: So at the AES, we have hundreds of recording schools involved with their own
sections and so on, and the thing that I've been trying to figure out lately actually, having learned
about [Kylie's] journey is what can we as a professional community -- what can we do as AES -to reach into the high schools and find these kids who have a future in our business and don't
even know us yet. And I'm curious to know, are you even interested in somehow engaging with
the high schools, and is there a way that we can work together and perhaps make little brochures
to send the guidance counselors? Or what can we do?
>>: Back master.
>> Steve Turnidge: Did he say back master?
>>: You should put it on every record, you need to go to audio school. You need to go to audio
school.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: Well, for what it's worth -- I'm sorry. For what it's worth, my
colleagues and I, because we had a new program, and a new program, a new expensive program,
four-year program, how do you get people? So we actually went around to all of the eastside
high schools. We went to Redmond and Newport and Inglewood and did a presentation on
careers in audio for videogames, because that's what we specialize in, and talked to high schools,
particularly their music programs.
>> Steve Turnidge: And it's a good demographic for you too, actually.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: Well, exactly. So it was a recruiting technique for us, but it was
outreach to the high schools. And I must say, it was really -- it was a two-way street. I learned a
lot about -- I talked to more high school students, and all in bands and orchestras. And I thought
that that was -- and I would think for the audio, too, that would be the targeted audience. For us,
that was the determination we made, so we did some of that. It was a lot of work, but it was
good, and I'd be very interested to know what else people are doing.
>> Joe Reineke: We go to career fairs and do presentations at a 100-mile radius of every school
from Seattle, draw a line 100 miles, and go visit them. And we also get in touch with the
guidance counselors, but in our experience, these guidance counselors are kind of stuffy, and
they really know -- like, the kind of person who would be into audio wouldn't go to a guidance
counselor and say, where do I go to school? I'm serious. I'm not kidding. It's like, hey, where
am I going to go to ROTC and join the military or something like this? But they're not going to
go to the guidance counselor. So we have reached out more to the music programs, because
those people are -- they're in touch with the students. They're generally interested in music in
some form or another, and we found that to be just kind of a -- I don't know, that's our tribe. You
know what I mean? And that's who we're reaching out to.
>> Steve Barsotti: I know that AI has got a whole fleet of really highly polished admissions
people that comb the high schools all over the place, and I don't quite honestly know exactly how
they approach that. But I know at Cornish, it's just like he was saying. That's a more personal
kind of -- they, their faculty, go into the high schools and the music programs. Again, Cornish is
a music school, but still, they are approaching the high schools directly. And I think it's the
individual schools that have to do the outreach, and I don't know of any -- I don't think I have
anything specific to offer in terms of like what can AES do globally. But I think it's a matter of
just hitting the high schools regionally. I would assume it would have to be also local AES that
would be a part of that process of getting in touch with the high schools. I think the one thing
about high schools that may be a potential -- although I'm in agreement with what Joe was just
talking about in terms of if you go through the official channels. The high school systems have a
mother ship, so there is some potential of approaching the districts and the cities to begin
dialogue that could then filter down into the schools. But I don't know how effective that might
be.
>> Marlie Pesek: Do you have an AES high school student chapter?
>> Bob Moses: No, there's student chapters, but they're college.
>>: I think they're all college.
>> Marlie Pesek: So we're starting our own AES chapter, student chapter. Excited about that.
But to think of students get involved in clubs, and they get involved in -- high school students, in
sports and whatnot. So that might be a good -- a lot more work, but to provide that to high
schools. It could just be a door that they could walk through. They could end up here.
>> Steve Turnidge: And getting a packet -- yes.
>>: And learn [indiscernible]. Bellevue School District, and I taught at Bellevue High School
and Newport High School, so I'm interested in what you're talking about with the student
chapters. Is it possible to contact student chapters and have them work with our high school
students?
>> Marlie Pesek: It could be kind of like a mentorship.
>>: What we're interested in, to getting that foot in the door, just see how this is, and there's a lot
of students who are looking for recording, especially music for their bachelor's that they're doing
or applications for state that they need to do.
>> Marlie Pesek: All state and all kinds of things. Yes. That could be something where
college-level AES chapters are required to mentor maybe like once a month or once every three
months, mentor the high school chapter and kind of facilitate opportunities for them and maybe
bring in a speaker or come themselves, saying, this is what I'm doing. This is where I was in
high school, kind of a pass it forward. I don't know.
>> Bob Moses: The other thing I'll just point out is that our new president, John Krivit, sorry, is
an educator, and following him is Alex Case, who is a very popular educator. So we have two
years of AES presidents who are like you folks, and we have a real opportunity right now to
make some really cool shit happen.
>> Marlie Pesek: That could be awesome.
>> Steve Turnidge: Thank you, thank you. The other question that came up, based on personal
experience of people in the room is the concept of continuing education. What time do you guys
got to leave to hit your ferry?
>>: Now.
>> Steve Turnidge: It's all about scheduling.
>> Marlie Pesek: Bob, really quick, to have a club, like an AES high school chapter, it's
something that they can do right now. It's not something that they have to wait for to graduate to
come to one of our programs. They could get involved.
>> Steve Turnidge: And if educational materials could be made probably just on the website,
maybe a section of the website that is available to the -- and probably be open to everybody, but
recommend that they go. These are the types of things you could do. Why don't you make a
recording in your school and put it up onto YouTube and put a link here of what you've done, for
instance.
>> Steve Malott: Well, there's a very successful student competition in AES for projects, so
there could be a great link to that, as well.
>> Joe Reineke: Bob, can I give you my card, because I'd love to join AES and have some our
students do that.
>> Bob Moses: Actually, I'd like to come visit your studio.
>> Joe Reineke: Please, open invitation.
>> Bob Moses: I'm on jury duty for three weeks, so I'm downtown.
>> Joe Reineke: We make a killer cup of coffee, too.
>> Steve Turnidge: He likes coffee. I know this. Thanks for coming. Thank you both, and so
for the rest of us, we've got about another half hour to go, to make it easy. So back to our
continuing education situation. [Keith Elliott] just arrived from Boulder, Colorado, shifting his
prior to midlife crisis so he doesn't have one. Basically, it's a preemptive midlife course
correction so he doesn't have to get the red Ferrari and all of these things.
>> Marlie Pesek: No, you still have to get that.
>> Steve Turnidge: Potentially, yes. And I know that at the community college, you have quite
a broad range of ages and life experiences that typically that's one of the things the state wants, is
for people to be able to come back, reeducation and go back out. So how do you all deal with -let's start with Shoreline and work our way back, deal with continuing education and what you'd
recommend?
>> Jim Elenteny: So as I was just mentioning to a few people here who just left, actually, at
Shoreline Community College, I've got students in my class who are 16 years old. I've got high
school students who are going through the Running Start program here in Washington State,
sitting next to somebody who's 65, who's coming back to just further their own personal
experience, sitting next to somebody who's 30 years old who actually works currently in a
recording studio and who's just looking to kind of broaden their experience in that way. And
what we see is that we've got just absolute beginners to people who have been doing this for
years. And the anecdote I was just saying is that I had somebody come through one of my
classes who had been working in the studio, who had interned somewhere and who had actually
been doing some assistant engineering. And he was in my very first class, the very first class
where we talk about what is frequency, what is wavelength and those things. And he came up to
me after the quarter was over, and he said, Jim, I kind of thought that I knew all this stuff
already, but coming through the class, it really made me look at things in a different way and
think about things a little bit differently than what I thought I had already known. And so
somebody like that, when we can encourage them to just gain a further step in their pathway,
sitting next to somebody who's just starting from scratch is really what our community college is
all about, is just getting everybody what their education is needing at that time. And while it's
not a one on one, I'm not sitting there with just one person, I'm sitting there with probably 30
people in that classroom, I'm doing everything that I can to make sure that everybody's getting
addressed the way that they would want to be addressed in that situation.
>> Steve Malott: At Northwest, I teach the intermediate classes out of a series of four classes for
audio engineering. I teach number two and three, and classes number two is required for all of
the people going through the program, and class number three is for minors.
>> Steve Turnidge: What are those called?
>> Steve Malott: Recording 2 and Recording 3. There was a controversy over it, but they
finally decided on that.
>> Steve Turnidge: Carry on.
>> Steve Malott: Recording 2 is usually about 15 or 20 people. Recording 3 is about four to six,
because it's not required, so people that want to do it have a vested interest in doing it as part of
their minor. And so I don't quite have one on one, but I certainly do have two on one sometimes
or three on one in that class. And I'm able to address really specific, finite issues with students in
their learning progression in that situation.
>> Steve Turnidge: Are they typically young, or do you have a broad range of students there?
>> Steve Malott: I would say the oldest student I have ever had at Northwest is 24, and at
Shoreline I have had 14 year olds and 74 year olds and everything in between. So distinctly
universes of people.
>> Steve Turnidge: Steve?
>> Steve Barsotti: The Art Institute is not quite as varied as what Shoreline's got going on, but
similar in the sense that there's a lot of young kids coming out of high school and kids who tried
college a couple of times, didn't quite work, never quite got around to it. So that sort of early 20s
kind of range. And then there's a handful of older students. What happens at the Art Institute,
though, is it's a four-year program. It's a degree program, so you kind of -- we have had older
students that have come through, wanting to change directions kind of thing. They might not be
looking for a degree, though, because they've maybe already done that in some different
direction. They don't tend to finish the program. They come in, maybe take a few classes.
>> Steve Turnidge: Cherry-pick their interests.
>> Steve Barsotti: Cherry-pick their interests, but it's also just a little harder because of the
prereq sequence and things like that. Typically, I encourage them to look at programs like
Robert Lang's got going and Joe's got going with UW, with these more certificate based, where if
it's about I've got a career and I've got an education, I've got the degrees or whatever that might
be, and I'm just looking for a new set of information, the degree issue is not the point, then
there's all these other opportunities, which I think are better suited.
>> Steve Turnidge: You don't need proof anymore.
>> Steve Barsotti: Well right.
>> Steve Turnidge: You've gotten the proof.
>> Steve Barsotti: It's not about that academic credential. It's about the body of knowledge and
the experience, and so I don't think the Art Institute is typically the best place for that kind of
students. Occasionally, they come through, pick what they want and then go.
>> Steve Turnidge: Joe?
>> Joe Reineke: Well, we're talking about higher education.
>> Steve Turnidge: Well, I don't know. We're talking about continuing education, people who
are coming to it at a different time of their life as compared to just right out of high school.
>> Joe Reineke: Yes, so we do Pro Tools user certifications for people. We train -- and people
can come to our course, and we do these a la carte, outside of our full nine-month program. We
do these Pro Tools certifications. And we've found that, man, there's a lot of weekend warriors
out there that want to know this program, and they really want to know -- they want to -- I don't
know. They want to learn how to use it. And when -- I've been a Pro Tools user for 13 years,
something like that. It's like the first studio in town to have HD, blah, blah, blah. So when I
went to Los Angeles to get my Avid Certified Instructors credentials, I thought maybe that
program was like, I'm going to breeze through this. I've been using this. I make records all the
time, and I know this. And, whoa, I didn't know that program. I knew how to use it for what I
needed it for, but I didn't know the program. So this whole thing really teaches people
everything about that, but to really get back to your question is like, man, we've seen like 60year-old dudes coming in and taking this. And I think it's cool. I think it's wonderful, because
they just like -- he wants to go record his friends in the garage and stuff, and he wants to know
how to use it, and there's an outlet for him.
>> Steve Turnidge: And that's the helical nature of time. New garage bands now are 60 years
old. They were around originally. It's Oldvana. But I'm old. Go ahead, Lawrence.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: DigiPen mostly gets -- the focus, as a four-year baccalaureate degree,
we're focused on high school graduates who are coming in. In our program, we've seen some
people who come in with a music degree already, and so they get transfer credits for a lot of the
core music courses, the theory and the composition, but they're there for really -- if they're not
there for the whole deal, there's no mechanism. We don't have any. You can't just piecemeal
and take just this. But what we have had people come in and do it anyway, just really to learn
and to network with the videogame industry, because it's such a new animal, and nobody really
knows what it is or it's all new. So we'll get people who already have a bachelor's degree. Most
of the ones who have come through our program, it's in music, and then they do it -- they get a
second bachelor's degree. Ideally, we would have a master's program for somebody like that, so
they could do a two years' master's, but we don't offer that yet.
>> Steve Turnidge: It's interesting, the evolution. And, Marlie, obviously, because our
questioner is actually going into your course, this is optimal, the make your own. You rise to the
level of your competence, then.
>> Marlie Pesek: Yes, so students learn in group sessions and then also in private one-on-one
lessons, so our program is super-individualized. We have one of our students is a paralegal, and
she worked back in music back 25 years ago or so.
>> Steve Turnidge: Licensing down in LA.
>> Marlie Pesek: Yes, and then she got a full-time gig, like many music lovers do, and now
she's returning back to her roots, so we have various other students that have families and have
been through college already, who have been working for 10 years. We just talked to someone
through L&I who has been working, and they've got an injury, and they have this opportunity to
go back and learn a new skill. So really because we're so small at the moment, we can tailor the
program to the individual, and some students have a condensed amount of time. They only have
three months before they're going to move to LA and want to start their career there. We just
specialize the program, and we have that flexibility, because we don't have a specific start date.
But in fall of 2016, the goal is to have specific start times, so that's going to change a little bit.
But we hope to still be able to open the facilities to anybody who wants to learn and experience.
>> Steve Turnidge: And people can pay to go and record there any time they want, right?
>> Marlie Pesek: Yes, we're operating as a fully professional studio, so they could do that.
>> Steve Turnidge: Okay, sweet. Thank you. Did that speak to your question there, Keith? Are
there any other questions in the audience here that we haven't covered that were burning, need to
know? Yes, sir. So it gets on the recording.
>>: I just had a comment. I come from the land of records and television and now games in
New York, and everything's dying, big studio wise, the big facility. The college of the
workplace is not there anymore, and it's a real opportunity, and the only opportunity usually for
kids to experience the kind of camaraderie and feeding off each other and the ability to make
mistakes. The opportunities that I had in the big facilities, many of which are not there anymore,
I feel bad for the kids. Contact wise, in particular, I don't know how you do it. Everybody's
running to their bedrooms now, and it changes the business completely.
>> Steve Turnidge: I guess you talk to them in their bedrooms through the net, because that's
really ->>: They don't talk -- but they don't talk to each other. I learned everything good I know I
learned from some other guy that's kind of doing the same thing. And have you tried this, and
gee, that takes five steps away. And that's gone, except for this scenario, which 10 years ago, it
was not the case. So it's a selling point for the college experience, certainly.
>> Steve Turnidge: And especially with the game market exploding. What just happened this
week with Blizzard and is it Activision? Who does Candy Crush?
>> Lawrence Schwedler: Oh, that's a British company. I don't know the name.
>> Steve Turnidge: Well, they were just purchased by Activision for what is it, $39 billion? Am
I saying this wrong?
>> Lawrence Schwedler: It's something like this.
>> Marlie Pesek: I'm in the wrong business.
>> Steve Turnidge: Activision. Whoever does Candy Crush.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: They're a one-trick pony. That's their thing, and it took off.
>> Steve Turnidge: But one of the things about that is that in-app purchases was like $18
million. I've got to buy another candy cane to actually get this level. Here's a dollar, you're
going to do it? These people, it's a new kind of addiction. They might as well call it hypodermic
crush or something.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: There was an interesting statistic which was cited in that, when we
went around and talk to high schools. I built my presentation around it, because it was a report
from the Bureau of Labor Statistics for the period from 2003 through 2013, I think, or -- it was a
10-year period, the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics submits these reports. And of the
three top -- all jobs are put into various categories with a code, and so the top, biggest increase
was in petroleum engineers, not surprisingly. And then the second one was mining operators,
and the third one was music producers and composers. And USA Today, if you Google USA
Today Bureau of Labor Statistics Jobs Report, you'll find this online. So USA Today, they were
saying, why, what accounts for this extraordinary growth for music composers and producers?
And they were speculating, well, there must have been more television and theater productions.
And it's like, no, the Facebook developer app launched in 2006 and the Apple App Store opened.
There are something on the order of 10,000 games I think available on the Apple App Store, and
on the Google, there are more than that again. And all of those games require music and sound
effects and voice recordings, and it has to be mixed properly. And half of -- most of us don't
even know how to do that yet, because they think, okay, it's like making a film, and it's not like
making a film. It's completely different. So even content, original content, forget
implementation. Somebody's got to write all that music, so this is a great time for young people
to be getting into this business. I think for us, who had this experience and go, the great, all of
this business, the music business went down the toilet. It's gone, right? It's gone.
>> Steve Turnidge: It's changed. It's a phoenix.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: But now, it's something different, right? It's something different
again. And I think that's what this is about for me, which is what is this change? How the hell
do we make sense of it, and what do we do with it all? And so if you like churn, this is a good
time to be alive.
>> Steve Malott: What used to be a one-hit wonder was 2:24. Now it's just 24. It just has to last
for one level.
>> Steve Turnidge: Okay, you're talking time.
>> Steve Malott: Yes, 24 seconds. That's all it is. It doesn't have to be two minutes. It doesn't
have to have lyrics. Doesn't have to tell a story. It just has to be like, oh, I'm out of level two.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: But the need for original content, and I'm talking about original
content -- you can only license the same stuff over and over so many times. Look at all of these
indie games. Most of this composition work is being done on independent games, and the
numbers are staggering. And you look at Kickstarter. People are making their way. Now, are
they making a million bucks? Candy Crush is an extreme. Angry Birds, those are aberrations,
and I guess it's good that they're there, because they drag the rest of us up, but there are
thousands and thousands of titles that need music and sound.
>> Steve Turnidge: And actually, speaking of Kickstarter, those videos that they have on
Kickstarter.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: All of those videos need sound.
>> Steve Turnidge: The better production they have, the better they're going to attract, as well.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: And look at the websites. Every website, the approach for audio
content, music, sound and voice is finally, finally approaching -- it's not yet there, but it's
something approaching the professional quality that we who made records just would demand,
and it's now because of technology advancements starting to become possible in videogames.
And that's great news for all of us who are working at it. Well, yes, VR, boy, don't even go to
VR. Spatialized audio, right? Forget all your stereo sound effects library. Throw them away.
It's all got to go mono now, because it's going to be real-time DSP to place the bird behind your
head, and when you turn, it's going to still be there. It's not going to move with you, so we're ->> Steve Turnidge: Microsoft has some world in this, as well.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: Really?
>> Steve Malott: You're on NDA.
>> Marlie Pesek: Yes, why don't you guys ->> Steve Turnidge: So this is actually pretty exciting, because one of the things that the
discussion used to be about is why are we still doing this, because everything's going downhill,
and we're just teasing the students?
>> Joe Reineke: Let's face it, the music industry has been pummeled. It's like a little kid in the
corner that's been beaten down. You can't beat that thing anymore. At a certain point, a person
can't be beat. You can't beat me when I'm already down, when I'm done. So that's kind of where
I feel like the music industry is. It's been my life for a really long ->> Steve Turnidge: It's been your life.
>> Joe Reineke: It's been my life. All right, so I really like what Lawrence is saying, because
it's really true. It's shifting to we're going to look back on this moment in history and go, this
was a travesty, what we did to music, a friggin' travesty.
>> Steve Turnidge: It's failing slow, is what we've done here.
>> Joe Reineke: But the gaming industry, which I think is so exciting, they figured out how not
to give it away, and these kind of things. And Lawrence is right. Everything that you hear out
there has to have been recorded somewhere.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: Somebody had to come up with that stuff.
>> Joe Reineke: Somebody did it. Somebody did it, and [Karen] and I talk to students about
this, even on the high school level, it's like what is that? They go, what is this about? And we
just explain it to them. It's like, well, everything you've ever heard on any commercial, radio,
game, every little blip, bleep and fart noise you've ever heard is someone had to record that.
>> Steve Turnidge: Well, not every fart noise.
>> Joe Reineke: Well, maybe not that last one, but you know what I mean? You get the spirit of
that. There's something cool going on out there. It's pretty exciting, and ->> Steve Turnidge: From my vision, we're in post-scarcity. It used to be -- there's a couple of
things about post-scarcity. It used to be I'd collect Genesis bootleg videos, and they were very
scarce, and VHS, and you'd trade with your friends and go, okay, this is eight generations deep,
but it's the one that you haven't gotten yet. And so now, go on YouTube, type Genesis,
everything is absolutely there. We are in post-scarcity, and it's post-singularity. The other thing
about post-scarcity is anything that you can think of exists. So instead of planning -- planning is
a prison. Instead of planning something and then building it and making it happen, all you have
to do is actually conceive of it, search and it's there, and implement it, because it's already there.
These things, it's happened over and over again. If there's something I wanted to see exist, you
look for it, somebody's done it, so there's that. But the flipside of it is what used to be hard is
now easy, and what used to be easy is now hard. It's very difficult now -- for instance, it used to
be easy to get paid for music but hard to get distribution. It's easy to get paid for music by
getting a label. But now it's easy to do distribution but very hard to get paid. So these things are
teaching people how to do the newly hard things I think is something that schools can do that
were easy for us, finding out new ways.
>> Joe Reineke: And navigating this kind of challenging road sometimes.
>> Steve Turnidge: And they'll teach you, too. The little toddlers that have phones, that that's
their TV. We grew up with TV and Saturday morning. They're 24/7 in their little phone,
because parents don't parent, still. They haven't for a long time, as far as I know, just from what
we're observing. So the mobile computing generation is going to surprise us, and we have to be
ready for that. Do you find that, Lawrence, that people that are coming in that have basically
been immersed?
>> Lawrence Schwedler: So I've seen it already. So this is the fourth year now, and every
successive incoming class, this isn't a scientific metric. I don't know if it's the chance, the throw
of the dice, who we happen to get, but the level of sophistication is increasing. And we like to
say at DigiPen that we don't teach software. It's like is it Pro Tools, is it Ableton, is it Logic Pro?
It's like what the heck. Next week, it'll be something different, but can you teach somebody to
distinguish between a good mix and a bad one? Can you teach somebody the difference of how
to determine whether something is in tune or not, whether something's tasteful or not?
>> Steve Turnidge: And those almost used to be easy but are now hard, for instance.
>> Joe Reineke: And also just how to be accountable for the things that they create.
>> Steve Turnidge: Yes. And the other thing we find too with kids these days is they are in this
little world all the time. And the best way I think for parents to talk to their kids is to text them.
Time for dinner. They'll actually watch it, as compared -- but what we don't see in this threedimensional space we grew up in is they're actually inhabiting a higher-dimensional plane where
distance is collapsed.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: Yes, so I'm sure parents everywhere say the same thing, but just this
weekend, my daughter said, I'm having a party tonight. I'm Skyping with my friends in Ireland.
And it's like, okay. And sure enough, they had a party, and they were on Skype. She's Skyping
with her new friends in Ireland. What does that mean? How do you make sense of that? And
then the other thing that happened last weekend, with the New York Times came the VR, the
cardboard viewer. Did anybody see the VR viewer? So it came with the newspaper? You fold
it up, stick your iPhone in it, downward the New York Times VR app and so one of the demos
was an air drop, food lift in Southern Sudan. So there is a video with high-quality audio -- it
wasn't spatialized audio. It was just stereo, but high-quality audio and video of villagers in a
remote field getting air-dropped food from some big military transport, and you could hear the
thud of these bags. Each bag weighs, I don't know, 50 pounds, dropped from an airplane that
didn't land. And the villagers going, and the women, of course, carrying the bags. The men
helped them put them on their heads, and then the women carried the bags. This is this
cardboard viewer for a free app that now they're saying that they'll have a certain amount of ->> Steve Turnidge: Google developed that.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: So to the notion of content, who's going to make -- who had to
produce that? The New York Times clearly has it. They must have been working on this for
half a decade, and they must have hired an army of people doing high-quality journalism, but it's
now VR. And it's all got to have sound and music, so holy cow.
>> Joe Reineke: The whole VR thing, like all of these big gaming companies are all rolling out
their VR this Christmas.
>> Steve Turnidge: We started a thing called Northwest Cyber Artists in 1992. It came out of
NEMUS, Northwest Electronic Musicians, and it shifted over, and it was combining art and
technology, and getting all these people at the time. There were videographers and there were
audio people, and they were all in their basements, and the intention there was get them all out of
the basements and have them work together and actually make it. So this is happening, and at
the item, that's when VR was happening with the HIT Lab, Human Interface Technology Lab at
UW. It's been around, and they were talking about nanotechnology at the time, and now it
comes around -- it drops. I expected it a couple decades earlier, but now we have -- we don't
have phones anymore. We have supercomputers, and there's no reason to call them phones.
They're multipurpose supercomputers.
>> Steve Malott: Anyone under 30 doesn't ever use it to make a phone call.
>> Steve Turnidge: Right, because they texted it already. So anyway, here we are at 9:57.
Fascinating. So what we get from this is we might actually be in the right profession.
Surprisingly enough.
>>: It actually turned out okay after all.
>> Steve Turnidge: How weird is that? And that's like I had a synth pop band in 1983, and
grunge came. Thank you. And it turned out to be really quite poor, but if I stick with synth pop,
then the 2000s come around, and wow, that's really fresh. That's really cool. So keep doing
what you believe, maintain your integrity, and the world catches back up with you. And then
that's when legacy trumps currency, is because I've been doing this since the earliest -- my [ARP]
odyssey in the '77 type of thing, and these people who have only software since. Yes, there's
something to that, but then we have the modular sense in all of this. So let's do everybody have a
wrap up, and there's a lot of questions we didn't get to, but I don't think they were as important as
what we actually talked about. So, Jim, why don't you start, and let us know your thoughts.
>> Jim Elenteny: I'm just really pleased to be here with everybody here tonight. I'm glad that
you were able to talk with us. This has been really informative for me. This is only the second
AES meeting that I've been to, so I appreciate the invitation, and I appreciate getting to meet
some of my colleagues here who I haven't met before, so thank you to all of you for listening to
us.
>> Steve Turnidge: Thank you. Steve.
>> Steve Malott: Well, I guess the takeaway for me tonight, and what I would like to leave you
with, is the state of audio education in the Pacific Northwest is that the tide is rising. Audio
education is getting better. The results of the product of our labors, our students, are getting
more technologically savvy, and that allows them to be more creative. And I am honored to be
in the group of people who people elect to get training from and, like I say, after every AES
meeting I have ever been to -- I was not the smartest person in the room, and I'm glad they let me
in, because I learned a lot from the people that were there. So I appreciate the opportunity. I just
would like to say a final plug for the Northwest University academic program, because I have
focused a lot on the spiritual modality of our organization. But we have a fine academic
curriculum, and I think that -- I can say probably from knowing the people that are on this panel
for quite a long time mostly, everyone here is doing a fantastic job trying to bring students into
the audio fold and create an opportunity for them to make their own futures in this business.
>> Steve Turnidge: Thank you, Steve.
>> Steve Barsotti: Well, echo a lot of what they've already said. Thanks for the invitation, and
it's also an honor to be amongst such highly regarded professionals. I think for me, what I think
is most exciting is diversity of opportunity. And this is, Lawrence, what you were just talking
about in terms of people have been making music forever. They'll always make music. That's
never going to change. And people will do it for a whole bunch of different reasons, and it's not
always about money. In fact, it rarely ever starts with it being about money. And then we get
hungry and have to figure that part out. So what's really changing is where does that music end
up, and the opportunities for where this content can end up is, again, what you just spent a lot of
time talking about, but that's what I think is the exciting part. So I like that diversification of this
industry, that you can still learn these particular techniques, but education and a whole bunch of
different versions of what education can mean are really approaching what you're doing, what
year learning and what it's for in a lot of different ways, and I think that's pretty cool.
>> Steve Turnidge: Sweet. Joe?
>> Joe Reineke: I am just so happy to be here tonight and to learn from you guys, because I
think I've learned a lot just listening to you cats. And one day, I want to play that Rick bass of
yours.
>> Steve Turnidge: I think we can make that happen. I should bring it down. We can jam.
Thank you. Lawrence.
>> Lawrence Schwedler: For me, the fact that being a musician and being an audio professional
and then really falling haphazardly into videogame audio, what I love about it is it is the ultimate
interdisciplinary activity. Electrical engineering, computer science, music at its heart, which the
Greeks put in the Trivium, and it was the top. It was with poetry. It's the ultimate expression of
spirit, and about as far as I would think from some digital analysis as you could get. You need
all of that to be in an audio and music profession, and the fact that we get to do this is absolutely
an honor and a blessing, and it's great to be here.
>> Steve Turnidge: Good to have you. Marlie, you're the keystone here.
>> Marlie Pesek: Oh, no. Thank you very much for having us here. All throughout my life, I
knew I was going to do something in music, and I've always been a singer and a songwriter, but
when I went to Shoreline Community College, lots of people are saying, you're going to study
music? What else are you going to study, or what else are you going to do? Well, now I feel
like the students that are coming to us, it's so exciting to be able to show them and tell them
about all the cool things that are coming up. Because it is becoming viable again to have a
profession in music and in audio. So to me that's really exciting, and I got this really cool
Windows 10 tonight, so thank you, Microsoft. And also, entrepreneurship. That's something we
didn't talk about a whole lot, I don't think, but in every field, but especially in any art or
entertainment field, you have to create your own branding and market yourself and be able to be
an entrepreneur. So that's something that we really push, too, is people being proactive in their
education and not just sitting back and getting instruction and taking things in, but also putting
things out and forging your way.
>> Steve Turnidge: The Gumby train.
>> Marlie Pesek: Yes, the Gumby train. I have to thank Robert for everything that he's done for
me and the opportunities to meet everyone here and to reunite with people that educated me. So
thank you.
>> Steve Turnidge: Any burning questions that we have from the audience? And I'll assume
not, but I had to ask. And in that case, it's 10:05. I think we had a pretty great evening. Thank
you all for coming out, and the people that weren't here don't know what they missed, but they
will, because this will probably be streaming sometime from a Microsoft site.
>>: Near you.
>> Steve Turnidge: Near you, which is probably in your office. So, with that, I'd like to thank
you all for coming tonight, and this has been one of the more interesting meetings that I've been
at for a while, so thanks for making it that. And let's have another round for our -- and oh.
[Rick] has something to say.
>>: I want to thank [Ivan Tashev] for arranging this room. And if anybody wasn't at the last
meeting, I mentioned the possibility of a tour of Cascade Record Pressing down in Milwaukee,
Oregon, so if you weren't there, now you're aware. There's a short, crude iPad video on the AES
Facebook page. So you can see it. If you've never seen a record press work, well, it's a variation
on making waffles. Okay, thanks for coming.
>>: Always a pleasure.