>> Lolan Song: Good afternoon. Welcome to this special joint
event of Microsoft Research speaker series and the CHIMES. Of
course, Microsoft speaker series itself is self explanatory.
However, I would like to explain about CHIMES is one of the
largest employee network groups in Microsoft. It's open to all
employees of Microsoft who are Chinese or who are interested in
China.
My name is Lolan Song. I am working at Microsoft Research Asia,
based in Beijing, China, and I'm responsible for academic
collaborations in Asia pacific region.
Today, we have a very special event and invited three
distinguished speakers and a panelist. The first is a doctor,
Mimi Gardner Gates, now director emeritus of Seattle Art Museum,
where she was a director for 15 years. Dr. Mimi Gates is a
scholar of the history of Chinese arts with a BA from Stanford
University and a Ph.D. from Yale University.
In the field of Chinese art, she has taught, published essays and
organized numerous exhibitions. Currently, among many
responsibilities, she chairs the Dunhuang foundation and the
oversees the Gardner Center for Asian art and ideas at the
Seattle Asian Art Museum.
The second one is professor Xudong Wang, who serves as a vice
director of Dunhuang Academy and is vice director of the National
Research Center for Conservation of Ancient Wall Paintings and
Earthen Sites. Professor Wang is a guest prosecutor at the
Lanzhou University and the Northwest University in China, as well
as in charge of international collaborative projects between Dunn
huang academy and the Getty Conservation Institute, Tokyo
institute, National Institute of Culture Property, and Microsoft
Research Asia.
And the third one is Dr. Hsiao Wuen Hon. Dr. Hsiao Wuen Hon is a
managing director of Microsoft Research Asia, and IEE fellow and
a distinguished scientist of Microsoft.
recognized expert in speech technology.
research activities, technology transfer
academic community institutes throughout
region.
Dr.
Dr.
and
the
Hon is international
Hon oversees lots of
collaborations with
Asian pacific
So today's talk is about Dunhuang heritage. How many of you have
been to Dunhuang? Okay. Great. Of course, we also have people
online. There's 20, 30 people online. I'm sure some of you also
have been to Dunhuang. If so, you must agree with me that the
trip to Dunhuang is really an unforgettable lifetime experience.
It was for me.
But if you haven't, if you haven't been there, have you heard
about Dunhuang? Do you know where it is and why is it so
special? Today's session will answer all those questions, plus
more.
So let's begin with the first topic, the Buddhist caves of
Dunhuang, treasure troves in the Chinese Gobi Desert. Let's
welcome Dr. Mimi Gates.
>> Mimi Gardner Gates: Thank you. It's always such a great
pleasure and honor to be at Microsoft, and I want to thank Hon
and Lolan for organizing today's session, as well as
[indiscernible] who has come from the Dunhuang academy and Curtis
Wong from Microsoft Research, all of who are going to talk about
Dunhuang.
But I wanted to start with a brief introduction to the site, and
which is an UNESCO World Heritage site and a place of incredible
importance in terms of the cultures of the world. And just to
introduce the site, one of the great seventh century wall
paintings gives you some idea of the skill and beauty of the art
of Dunhuang.
So where is Dunhuang located? It is out on the Silk Road on the
edge of the Gobi Desert and here it was part of the Silk Road
which connected China with the Mediterranean world, with Greek
and Roman culture, with Persia and the Middle East, with India
and Central Asia. And Dunhuang Mogao, which I think many of you
know means the Peerless Caves, caves without equal is located in
what is often referred to as the throat of the Silk Road.
And the caves really embody the greatness of Chinese culture as
well as cultural interaction, because one of the most fascinating
aspects of it is that it's here, that Chinese culture met all the
Indian, Persian and Middle Eastern, Greek and Roman cultures. So
the great cultures of the world really came together at Dunhuang,
and intermingled there.
And just beyond the town of Dunhuang, just beyond the caves, are
endless sand Dunes, the deserts of Central Asia which, indeed,
are not very friendly. Not only did travelers have to deal with
harsh terrain and climate, but also with bandits and robbers.
But Dunhuang, over a vast period of time, from the 4th to the
14th century, millenium, a thousand years, enjoyed considerable
prosperity, because it was at Dunhuang that these caravans were
provisioned. They restocked their supplies of food and water.
The caravans that headed west from China carried the silks, furs,
ceramics, jades and spices. And the caravans that came from the
Mediterranean world to China carried ivory, gems and gold.
And so this is a panoramic view of the northern caves of Mogol,
and over the period of a thousand years, 735 caves were carved
into this cliff face. There are, indeed, other cave sites in
Central Asia, but only
only at Dunhuang that you find such a
large number of decorated caves.
Of the 735, 492 are chock a block filled with art. So how did
waive building at Dunhuang start? There is a 7th century steely,
a Tang Dynasty steely dated 1698 that states that a monk arrived
from central China in 366, and there he had a vision of golden
light filled with multiple Buddhas so he decided that he would
practice his religion there, and he dug a cave into a cliff face.
Then other monks came, and there was continuous construction for
a thousand years, and eventually 735 caves.
The northern caves are where the monks lived and was also a place
for religious practice and, in many cases, monks were buried
there. But it's largely undecorated. But the southern caves
are, by contrast, sumptuously decorated. And it's just, this is
a site that is really just, that is distinguished by its artistic
and cultural richness. It's a place that we want to preserve for
future generations.
So there is concrete evidence that Buddhism made its way from
India to China by no later than the first century, before the
common era, and so that was during the Hon Dynasty, if not
earlier.
Confucianism was a well ordered social system, well ordered
values, but Buddhism was transcended, and it offered hope of the
afterlife. So in addition to merchants, monks traveled to and
from India to
Chinese monks went to India to explore the
genesis of their faith, and it was a place where Shakyamuni
Buddha had lived in the fifth century before the common era. And
Indian Buddhas journeyed east to spread their faith across
central and east Asia.
So why were caves carved in these cliffs? Commissioning caves
was an act of devotion. It was a well established tradition and
a way to gain merit in the afterlife. So the most famous cave
site in Central Asia is Bamiyan, and I think many of you are
familiar with it, because in 2001, it's the place that the
Taliban, they sadly destroyed these monumental Buddhas that dated
to the third and fifth century. It shows how fragile this art
is.
You know, the large Buddha was 174 feet high. The smaller, 115
feet, and they were originally painted. You think how
magnificent this sculpture originally was. But it was an act of
devotion, a way to gain merit in the afterlife.
So before we look at the art, let me just very briefly recap how
the caves were rediscovered in 1900. After the 14th century, the
Mongol empire disintegrated and the Chinese pulled out of
Dunhuang because the overland Silk Route was no longer safe. So
sea routes replaced the overland trade routes. From the 14th to
the 20th century, the caves, they laid largely undisturbed. It
often referred to as the period of abandonment.
But the extreme dryness, the aridity of the site helped preserve
the art. Sand blew across the steps. You can see how the cliff
face deteriorated, and in the early 20th century, when this
photograph was taken, the caves were, Dunhuang was largely
forgotten.
But on June 22, 1900, Wang Yuanlu, who was a resident Daoist
monk, he was just poor, living in the caves, accidentally
discovered a hidden library. He saw a strange crack in the wall
and punched through, and he found 40,000 manuscripts, paintings
and embroideries on the other side
that were on the other
side. Documents of all kinds that had been sealed up in the
early 11th century.
So the Chin Dynasty was in the midst of collapse. You think of
the 1900s, collapsed just a decade later. And he couldn't get
the attention of any officials. But western adventurers, they
heard this fantastic discovery, and they just gravitated to
Dunhuang in search of treasure.
The first was a Brit, sir Aurel Stein, who is seen here. He
always had his dogs, Spincon and Dash with him. But he came and
then right after him, Paul Pelliott, and you can see what the
library cave looked like. And they both purchased from Daoist
Wang large numbers of these manuscripts. Britain has about
20,000, France over 10,000. And if you're interested in knowing
about this period, Peter Hopkirk has a book called foreign devils
of the Silk Road, that is a lively account available in paper
back.
But the importance of those materials is incredible. The Diamond
Sutra is the earliest dated woodblock printed book. Dated 868,
and these objects are now scattered in eight countries, in 60
institutions. There are a good number in China.
The good news is that the British library is digitizing all of
the materials in all of the different countries, putting them up
on the web so they'll are universally accessible, and the good
news is that they survived.
But it was this event which really marked the rediscovery of
Dunhuang. But now let's focus on the art of Dunhuang. The
earliest dated cave to, to Cave 285 which was painted in 538,
539. It's expansive, it's considerable in size. It's a
meditation cave. These niches at the bottom were used by monks
for medication.
The center of the ceiling has floral medallion, it actually is
derived from the idea of a canopy that would have been
that
came all the way across from India. And the ceiling, the upper
levels are a mixture of Daoist and Buddhist mythology. And the
cave actually is a model of the cosmos. You have the underworld,
then the human Buddhist world and then the celestial world. And
a Buddha in the center with two meditating monks on the side.
The Buddha has a Chinese robe. Already by this time, Central
Asian styles were becoming [indiscernible], were becoming more
Chinese, and so the flaming halo is very typical of this early
of this early period. And it's a cave that is magnificent, and
it also has the Hindu deities. So the darkened figure at the
top, and actually it had led, is each Shiva holding the sun and
the moon, and easily recognizable is Ganesh, his son.
And you find this fascinating intermingling of cultures. And you
get a very real sense of how strong Buddhism was in introducing
foreign elements into China.
Then as you move from the human realm up to the celestial realm,
you have a whole register of monks medicating in caves. And look
at the colors. Look at the blue of the lapis lazuli and the
green of the malachite. The art in this cave is just
is
terrific, as well as the heavenly musicians. This is a harpist,
and you can see how light, how airy, how dynamic this cave is
when you look at the details.
Now, jump to the eighth century. So I'm just going to do a quick
gallop here. Cave 45 which states that to the eighth century in
a Buddha with Bodhisattvas and guardian kings. And suddenly, the
figures are much fuller and they emerge from the walls. They're
no longer embedded in the walls. They're much more three
dimensional and substantial, which is very characteristic of Tang
Buddhas.
And wonderful figures of the disciple Kashyapa with Bodhisattva
Pusa and you can see these wonderful sense of movement with a
thrown hip and the pneumatic belly and these beautiful
contemplative faces. Really, you have to really go there to see
it.
One of the two great seated Buddhas, there are two monumental
Buddhas at Dunhuang, and one is in cave 130. Also, Tang Dynasty,
very full, has a beautiful hand you really can't see in this
image.
And then one of what I consider to be really one of the super
caves, is 158, Buddha Nirvana. Buddha having died, gone to
Nirvana in the background are people mourning his death, and
actually you see all kinds of nationalities there. And the head
of the Buddha in 158 is absolutely beautiful. This exquisite,
round face. These full lips, these beautifully defined eyes,
roundels on the head rest that actually are a Persian origin.
You can see the elements of so many different cultures in the
art, and you can just imagine what it must have been like at that
time with people of all nationalities coming and going on the
Silk Road.
But this superb
the hair is actually the wavy hair is derived
from Greek and Roman art but has now been transformed into
swirls. And if you go just two hours away, a very short drive,
the Dunhuang academy that oversees this whole site also oversees
the Yulin caves, about 44 caves that mainly are a little bit
later, 11th, 12th century. And here, you can see Chinese
calligraphic line. You can get a very, it's a sort of a
different and a later style. There's a magnificent landscape.
But the very skillful mastery of the brush that so characterizes
Chinese art, the ability to use a brush to express.
And this is what the challenge that is
that we're facing is
that the size of the conservation task is immense. 45,000 square
meters of wall painting. Actually if you lined it up ten feet
high, it would extend ten miles. So it gives you some sense.
It's just a vast task. And Director Wang is going to speak about
that in much greater detail. And I'll let him talk. The
relative dryness has helped, but the humidity and salts embedded
in the rock threaten it. Materials are weak and unstable.
So the site is overseen by the Dunhuang Academy under the
leadership of Fan Jinshi, as well as Director Wang, and this is a
recent view, just so it shows you, those of you who have been to
Dunhuang know, it actually, it has walkways. It's easy to access
that offer easy access to the caves. The cliff face has been
stabilized.
And in the United States, what we did was we established the
Dunhuang Foundation, which is to promote Dunhuang, to encourage
Chinese cultural philanthropy in China, and to support the
conservation of these caves, how to preserve them for future
generations.
And also, to support digitization and special projects. The
conservation is a major focus. Training Chinese conservators and
wall painting conservation, and Director Wang will tell. But the
www.dunhuangfoundation.us is what we
is where you can
contribute if you feel so inclined.
And this is a site that's central to Chinese culture. It's also
a site of world importance. So I am now going to turn it over to
those who talk about conservation and digitization in greater
depth, and I'm going to turn it over to Curtis Wong of Microsoft
Research who is going to give you a different type of experience.
>> Curtis Wong:
Thank you.
>> Mimi Gardner Gates:
Thank you very much.
>> Curtis Wong: So a few years ago, Mimi and I were invited to
the Mellon Foundation put together a workshop at Dunhuang of a
dozen people to help them in the process of building a new
museum, get some feedback about everything from conservation to
technology. It was an amazing experience for me.
And in the course of some of the discussions, they're building a
visitor center. And in the visitor center, part of the goal was
to acquaint visitors to where the caves are and a little bit more
of the context and history of the place. And because the visitor
center is in a place that's a bit away from the actual caves
itself, and so one of the things that was sort of mentioned,
well, maybe we have this thing and maybe call it like Google
Dunhuang or something like that.
I thought, hm, we got to do something about that. So that night,
I went back to my hotel room and I used WorldWide Telescope when
I built the thing in WorldWide Telescope, which is sort of my
version of Microsoft Dunhuang and that's what this thing is, it's
a little introduction to the caves, and I'll just kind of let it
play.
So the first goal was to try and communicate sort of the location
of where the caves are, and I'm going to bring the lights down a
little bit so you can see that a little bit better.
[music]
>> Curtis Wong: So that was the plan. We were in the field
where the museum was going to be built, and you can get a sense
of where the location is compared to where the airport. Before,
you had to come in on the train to be able to go there. It's an
amazing looking building. I haven't been there since they've
been working on it. I know it's really close. This is like
ancient history for them.
Here's a beautiful elevation view. So now you can see from
you'll get that experience in the visitor center, and then you'll
be taken to the site, the little oasis, as you can see there, and
you can see the sand dunes here on the left. They have these
fences built up to try ask him keep the sand from going over the
face of the cliff here.
This is my first time there. There's the structure here, which
is this thing. And I remember the first time walking in there,
it was dark. There were no lights in the caves, and pretty soon
your eye starts to get adapted. And I looked at this big thing
and I realized it's a giant big toe. And you look up, and
there's a Buddha that like 85 feet tall, which is amazing.
So I brought in some information here from the Getty Conservation
Institute, which has been in the process, over the past couple
years, of doing conservation and restoration of cave 85. So this
is sort of what it looks like inside of a cave, and you'll see
here some of the deterioration from when the Dunhuang River sort
of overflowed a bit, and it caused a lot of delamination of the
works there.
My little narration there is about this person, who was one of
the early sponsors of the cave. But the nice thing about
WorldWide Telescope is these things that look like video are
actually fully interactive so we paused at a time, you can
continue to look around and you can see just the nature and
severity of some of the damage that has been done as the
plastered layers sort of have fallen from the ceiling, et cetera.
But I can sort of continue to go with this and you can sort of
look at it some more. I don't want to turn the volume up,
because it's me talking. I hate hearing my voice. So this is
the conservation report and there's a link to this. You can see
up here some of the conservation work that was being done with
scaffolding to get closer to the walls and the ceilings.
Then we'll jump to another view here. So I'm going to bring up a
condition map, which is actually the wall behind these sculptures
so you can see the areas where there's been significant
delamination or other potential delamination that behind the wall
there is sort of empty space that they have developed the
techniques to try and attach those areas more firmly.
But I'm going to just pause this here so you can look around.
You can see these amazing ceilings. There's a coffered ceiling
up here. Yeah, so there's a lot more to this, but I'm going to
sort of transition to the next speaker, but I just wanted to give
you a feel for the site and what it looks like inside the cave
and the condition issues where hopefully this meeting can provide
some help for it.
>> Lolan Song: Thank you. Curtis has a very busy schedule
today, but he managed to come over to help demonstrate this piece
that's very good. Thank you very much.
Okay. The next speaker is Professor Wang, and his talk is about
Dunhuang Heritage. These preservations and the challenges.
Let's welcome Dr. Wang.
>> Xudong Wang: Good afternoon, everyone. It's a very honor to
be here to introduce about Dunhuang art. Just now, Mimi give us
a very wonderful introduce, introduction of the Dunhuang art. I
just would like to introduce the challenges and the opportunities
of Dunhuang.
Where is Dunhuang? Sorry. Here is Dunhuang. Here is Seattle.
So very far. I need to take two days to come here from Dunhuang.
First time
first day I fly plane from Dunhuang to Beijing and
then to Seattle. So [indiscernible].
This is the landscape of the Mogao caves. Mimi mentioned it. It
is a very special environment in the Gobi Desert and near the
[indiscernible]. So there is a river in front of the caves. So
giving the ancient people water. And wall painting and statues
and architectures exist. These were very important, especially
in 1900, Wang Yaunlu discovered the library caves.
Unfortunately, there are many, many [indiscernible] and
paintings, especially, conserved all over the world, including
the British, French and Russia and India and Japan and the United
States. So just 800 documents conserved in the Dunhuang Academy.
So maybe in the future, we can use the digital technology to get
it back to Dunhuang.
So now I'd like to introduce some of the challenges to the
Dunhuang [indiscernible]. As you know, the Dunhuang located in
dry environment in the Gobi Desert, but the earthquake, rainfall
and the sand storm and the flooding threaten this site. So
nobody trust here not too much rain. But in 2011 and last year,
very, very big flooding threaten the Mogao Caves. So we need to
pay attention to the global weather change.
And now tourists more and more increase. And many visitors come
to Dunhuang and to the caves. In fact, the caves very small and
the wall painting and the statues very fragile so we need to take
care.
Now, we can see some of the deteriorations due to the weathering
cliff and the deteriorations of wall paintings, many mentioned
just now. The salts and with the moisture movement for the
surface of wall paintings and it destroy the wall painting. And
from 1979, the Mogao Caves were open for the visitors. In that
time, just 40,000 visitors to this site. But last year, 800,000
visitors come to Mogao Caves. So it's a very dangerous. We
worry about it.
In fact, from July to August
to October, this is the harsh
season. Many, many visitors come here. So in the winter, hardly
there are hardly visitors come to Dunhuang, because they are very
cold, very cold.
So when the visitors enter the caves, the temperature, humidity
and the CO2 increase. Before, it's balanced. But now, the
balance was destroyed. So we have a very important collaborative
project with Getty Conservation Institute that the visitor
propensity. So now we decide we just can accept three dozen
visitors a day, but we cannot control it.
Now, we can see that at different times and conditions of the
wall paintings. Left is the 1908. The right is just now. We
can see a part of the wall painting is lost. So of course, this
is mainly the natural environment change, but the more and more
visitors came to the caves and changing the environment that
accelerates the deterioration.
So although we face the challenges, but now we get many
opportunities. Now central government of China pay attention to
the conservation of cultural heritage, because the chinese
economy more and more if better.
Another, the international community support us, including the
Getty Conservation Institute, [indiscernible] foundation, the
Tokyo Institute of Cultural Heritage and the [indiscernible]
Institute of Art in London. And now, Microsoft Research Asia
support us to the [indiscernible].
So we are very lucky to get more and more friends to support us
to do the conservation and the preservation work. And now, the
conservation technology and digital information technology is
develop rapidly, so we can use this technology to do the
preservation and the conservation of the wall paintings. So past
couple of days, I get so many information about this. So I hope
many friends here can use the technology to support us.
And in the past decade, all the generation of Dunhuang Academy
devoted themselves to explore the method to protect the Mogao
Caves. So today, we cannot forget them. We have to respect
them, to continue stay there. Is a very hard life conditions.
Now the life condition is better and better.
And we have the long term collaborative project with the Getty
Conservation Institute, focus on the conservation of wall
paintings. We work together to establish the process and some
technologies. We work together with Getty to do the sand control
project before, we just finished this fence, but now the
systematic sand control project finished, including this fence
and plant and the [indiscernible] Gobi Desert and so on.
So we can restore current wall paintings, but we need to do more
works. Now we focus on preventive conservation. So the
monitoring of the environment and condition of the wall painting
and the statues is our main works now. So we are going to try to
find good method to control the environment of the caves and
especially the visitors.
Another preventive project is digitization. I think this is the
very, very important method to conserve the wall paintings. So
from the 1990s, Dunhuang Academy started research of the
digitization. But now, we have the collaborative with Microsoft
Research Asia and Mellon Foundation and another university in
China, including the [indiscernible] university and the
[indiscernible] university and other institute of science,
Chinese Academy of Science.
So after my presentation, Hsaio Wuen will give out detailed
information about our collaboration. So we not only use this
data to the research, but also we can use this data for the
common people, especially for the visitors. Now we just finish
the 20 percent of the wall paintings. Now we need to focus on
the A class, so called the very important caves. And then we can
do the other caves.
So this is the very popular for you. We can use this data for
the research and archaeology and conservation and so on. So we
use this data for the website and for the exhibition. My young
colleagues create the multimedia for the people.
I don't want to take much time here. Now we can use the 3D print
to get a copy. Final, I would like to introduce the new visitor
center. Just now, Mimi [indiscernible]. Now we use the digital
data and other technology to create the program, and they
constructed the very, very beautiful beauty. It's very special
by the [indiscernible] from Beijing.
In the future, all visitors get to come to this new visitor
center and to get the information which the Dunhuang history, the
background of the history, culture and the natural environment
and they can get some caves details, images and information in
the [indiscernible]. This is a very popular in science center,
use this technology for the cultural heritage just for the first
time.
So maybe, hopefully this center is open for the visitors next
May. So welcome you to visit Dunhuang and to have a very good
experience here. This is the [indiscernible] programs. You see
the theater, just like in the cave. This is the landscape and
new visitor center. Thank you. Welcome to Dunhuang.
>> Lolan Song: Thank you. So let's welcome Dr. Hsaio Wuen Hon
to talk about Microsoft Research Asia eHeritage project and
Dunhuang. Thank you.
>> Hsiao Wuen Hon: So I know that we are in Microsoft. I think
most people like me, the techie and the geek. So besides the, of
course besides the money and other help we can give to Dunhuang,
how can we use technology to actually help Dunhuang, and I think
in research, we're also trying to do the technology we develop at
Microsoft MSR, how we can really help the society solve some
important problem. And I think the eHeritage is the program we
actually launched and Dunhuang [indiscernible] the collaboration,
we also use our technology work with other museum like Palace
Museum in Taipei, also the other museums in the Asia Pacific.
And today, I want to talk about specifically the thing we do with
Dunhuang. Of course, this can actually be extended also for
other similar heritage sites as well.
So I think of the more I work with this project, particularly
with Dunhuang, and really just feel so thankful, I mean, the
people like the Dunhuang Academy, Dr. Wang and Mimi do so much
for us. Not for us, for our future generations, because this
really belongs to the whole human being.
And I think I also get to understand, I mean, that really there's
a paradox, right. We do the preservation. We do the
conservation, and then the purpose is for more people, our future
generations, to enjoy. As you can see, more people go in there,
which will generate more very harsh condition, to actually
preserve that. So that's [indiscernible], how to solve that.
So I think this digital
what we call digital heritage,
basically how you can actually digitally actually capture this.
For both archive purpose. Because like the picture, the
[indiscernible] there was only black and white camera. Now
there's a color one, but there's not a [indiscernible]. As you
know, the color actually faded. It faded over a long period of
time. Today, what we see at Dunhuang very different than a
hundred years ago.
So if you can really not just take in the digital archive, also
every year, then I think our children, 300 years from now, they
can actually see how this colors, those are something which you
really cannot get. That's one.
And the other thing is talking about, I think, the basic way to
preserve these. People, you visit, you still visit the cave.
You see one or two. Today they'll probably see five or six and
spend some time there. And then the [indiscernible] cut down the
maximum numbers of visitors per day. And the other thing you can
cut down, the number of minutes they spend in the cave. Then you
have this nice exhibition. You can pick any cave you want to
see.
Trust me, I've been there. Actually, I know people want to be
there. But if you go there, actually, it's very dark and also,
the people [indiscernible] say look this, or this is the head of,
or this is the close up. You don't really watch that really that
clear. And also, you cannot really stay there for a long time,
because the CO2 degenerated.
But in a digital, you can see a 24 by 7 and if we make internet,
on the web. Then you can start it, you can do all kinds of
things. And I think this is why
I will talk about detail. We
actually build the [indiscernible] camera to help. And also like
Curtis, like all this nice presentation, the [indiscernible]. I
think we can actually, that people really has the best experience
doing the basic preservation.
So I think that digital capturing, archiving for display, I think
this is the Dunhuang Academy, long time even before we came here,
realize that's really one of the most critical jobs, and we're so
happy that we can help out.
And then, of course, you look at the conservation, preservation,
protection, which is physical protection, which is also very
critical, because if you [indiscernible], you just cannot see it.
And then, of course, they are [indiscernible] technology,
software, hardware stuff which we can do. I'm not going to talk
about this.
And then the third one which I think actually I have this idea a
few year, which is about to happen, is really this Big Data, big
heritage data. Let me explain why. People know the history of
Dunhuang. People know about [indiscernible], actually spent more
than ten years in there. How he did it? Most people
in that
case, it's just art. You have to go to visit each cave and then
you actually sit there for the whole day and actually maybe do
some stretching or take some notes. And this is how the research
also do. They go to visit every cave and they say, oh, this cave
probably is in the Tang Dynasty, that one probably the Sun
Dynasty because
oh, maybe the way they're painting. These two
maybe came from the same painter.
But those data, actually the data is not complete. And also
sometimes you make human error. But we actually had the digital
archive. Then we can open to more research. So they can look at
24 by 7 and try different hypothesis. And actually maybe some of
the things we know today, not really so [indiscernible]. And
maybe there's new findings. And not to mention, you probably an
actually
they're [indiscernible] Buddhas and trace the
like
Mimi show, solve the similarity between some cave in Afghanistan
and maybe actually we do some new theory.
So I think that, why we have this data and easy to access and
also [indiscernible] data not just doing one with other stuff,
other area and other heritage, which I think [indiscernible] will
discover new facts and historic facts, new theory which we cannot
do before. And that is just about to happen. And this require,
I mean, of course, human can use the eye to do all this stuff,
but we can use the computer vision technology which we do some
kind of analyze how they actually painted the [indiscernible]
versus how they painted the [indiscernible], and you can try all
these kind of idea and then with the computer assisted.
And I think that's really how also what MSR is doing
[indiscernible], how can we use the digital technology, computer
science technology to actually work to actually facilitate
together to [indiscernible] research better science and better
fact finding.
So specific project we do, gigapixel, we actually have done this
in 2008 and 2009. So it was already almost five years ago.
Certainly, about five years ago with gigapixel, still today I
don't think you have commercial camera that can do gigapixel.
Also, we capture 3D. I will tell you very quickly how we do it.
And when we this the gigapixel camera, which we find the
application, which there's not many application no people is so
interested in having their face in a gigapixel camera.
Particularly, people like me. I mean, people only grow older,
unless you're Benjamin Button, right? So we grow older, and you
have all the wrinkle, everything. So I don't know who want.
But we find the Buddha, and I just learned a new word, called
niche, n i c h e. It's niche. In Chinese called [indiscernible]
basically Pusa statue. And I think those are weak one gigapixel
cameras. We want to see all the detail, not to mention enable
the research.
So I think that we actually work with the Dunhuang Academy. And
also people know, yes, we can actually shoot the different
picture and stitch it together. But remember, in the gave, and
those are particular for niche, and they are angled, and if you
want to do the multiple shot, a lot of time you cannot even do it
to actually pursue the particular angle.
But with the gigapixel camera, you can just take one shot, which
is equivalent to you shoot many shot. And then the way we get
the stereo is kind of, you know, we actually just adjust the
focal point so we actually take multiple shot and each one we
actually view [indiscernible]. Then, of course, we have software
to review the 3D model.
So we can review the high dimensional, 3D, the model of the cave,
particularly with niche. And then we actually, you can see some
again, for us, the techie, the comparison. We want to see what's
the improvement. You compare with like the Canon Mark III in
terms of the people [indiscernible] and time, not only we can
educate much better the picture, at the same time we also cut
down the cost for doing that. So it's a very, very, very
wonderful the result. And I think also, a lot of challenge for
to us do that, to be honest with you. When we first have the
camera, we didn't realize, we didn't know
well, we didn't
anticipate, we should have, we were just stupid, okay? So, you
know, the Microsoft lab, of course, is very clear on all this.
Once question get this camera into the cave, all the dust, all
this stuff, and you know gigapixel camera, when you have dust, it
will blow up. So we actually take a long time to fix this
problem, but fortunately we fix this.
And also, when we are to do this, also, Dunhuang is more than
five hours away from Beijing so we actually need to calibrate all
this stuff. We actually build, we actually take a form to build
a small cave inside a Microsoft lab and I think the reason why
[indiscernible] and I think we actually show to, I think, we
showed Mimi too, we actually have the engineer actually using a
form to build a cave, build a niche. Of course, a mini actual
version. But it's actually quite nice. I'm so impressed our
engineer can do that and use that to calibrate.
You know, a camera like that, you actually need to do a lot of
calibration. So now, without the cave, we start with the cave,
with the niche. And I think the more than 60 percent of them, we
can actually do that. Of course, there are some small cave and
also by the way, the gigapixel camera is about this big. It's
not really something very small. So you also need some tripod to
do that.
So that's the limitation, but 60 percent right now. And now, I
will play a video of that. This is a video we make
[indiscernible] and we have some of the reporter from the TV and
the news agency and we also do some donation ceremony. We donate
gigapixel camera to Dunhuang.
video, the PR video we make.
So that's sort of the commercial
[music]
[Speaking Chinese].
>>: The gigapixel camera can capture high resolution
[indiscernible] images and can easily resolve details that are
not visible to the naked eye. The gigapixel camera automatically
computes a synthetic focus [indiscernible] function which greatly
increases the depth of field. The greatest advantage of this
technology is that it meets the needs of [indiscernible] color
for capturing large number of three dimensional shrines to the
finest degree.
>> Hsiao Wuen Hon:
You can see a big difference.
>>: The social responsibility is the cornerstone for Microsoft
Dunhuang [indiscernible] information technology to preserve
nature and the cultural heritage.
[multiple people speaking]
>>: And it's application to the Dunhuang project is the
[indiscernible] symbol of such accomplishments in eHeritage. In
the future, Microsoft look forward to collaborating with more
researchers around the world to make more contribution to nature
and cultural heritage and preservation so we can be a more
genuine past and create a better future for our offspring.
>> Hsiao Wuen Hon: Okay. So that's all I have to say, and I
really want to thank again the Dunhuang Academy and to give us
this opportunity to do something we really feel we have the
lasting contribution to all mankind which is really not so easy
for us to say that, particularly IT, the people [indiscernible]
and we just feel so much satisfaction to actually have this
opportunity to do this.
And I know many people say to me really appreciate all this
[indiscernible] and then like what Mimi say and I think the
Dunhuang over the years, which get a lot of donations from
actually people outside China, and I think, I know many of you
actually either are Chinese or actually really Chinese friends
and I think that when you actually consider the donation,
consider www.dunhuangfoundation.us. Okay?
>> Lolan Song: Thank you very much. So now we're going to start
the second part, which is a panel discussion. Let's invite the
three speakers to the stage, and we have about 15 minutes left,
and I hope that we give you a chance to ask some questions.
So let me maybe start with the first one. The first question
will be for Mimi. I'm sure Mimi got many requests for many
meaningful, interesting things to work on. So how do you decide
to work on the Dunhuang Foundation?
>> Mimi Gardner Gates: I think because I was trained in Chinese
art. Actually, I did my undergraduate work in Chinese history,
and China really, so when I stepped out of being a museum
director, I immediately gravitated to China.
I was asked to speak at Dunhuang, and then this is a site of
singular importance. It's important to China, also important to
the rest of the world, because you have this intersection of
cultures there, which fascinates me. But I decided that this was
a place where I could make a difference. So that's why I decided
to make it my top priority.
>> Lolan Song: Thank you, thank you. So the next question is
for Director Wang. You know as a tourist, we go there, it's
really exciting, however we only stay there for a few days and
then we go back to the big city, have our very comfortable life.
However, for someone like you, to spend the full seasons there
and the work through, devoted your life there for years, so how
do you make that decision? Can you share us the process?
>> Xudong Wang: In fact, before I decided to work for Dunhuang
Academy, I have very little knowledge about [indiscernible].
Just from my father who visited Mogao Caves and to tell me about
it. The first time I went to Mogao Caves in 1991, because the
Dunhuang Academy had a collaborative project with the Getty
Conservation Institute, Getty suggested [indiscernible] you need
to get your technical students to join us to do the research
project.
When I went to Mogao in winter, I really like there, the very
quiet, very peaceful. Before, I didn't go into the caves. Maybe
it's my personality. So I decided to join Dunhuang Academy, but
I lost family life with my wife, with my son, so it's very
difficult decision.
>> Lolan Song: So actually, not only should we thank Dr. Wang,
but we also should thank his wife and his family support, right?
That's great. Thank you.
So the next question is for Hsaio Wuen, and [indiscernible] has a
lot of deliverables in the lab. People write a lot of papers and
take large transfer. So why do you support researcher to do
something like this? Seems like not related to our business,
commercial side of business, for example.
>> Hsiao Wuen Hon: I think people know about Microsoft Research.
I think that while we really do really the whole computing field,
how can we actually do more to actually contribute back to the
society. And I think
and also, I think that always happens,
right. If you can really do for the whole mankind society, I
think people, [indiscernible] more technology for us.
So I think, I don't view this purely just people will say, well,
this is just purely charity work. Yes, I think that in the good
sense yes. By the same time, I think it's good for Microsoft
business as well. So we do all kinds of [indiscernible] like we
also have the eScience program, working with some
[indiscernible]. Which is just another example of that.
And then personally, I'm Chinese, and I heard about Dunhuang and
for so long, but only until I work on this project, I truly
appreciate the [indiscernible], particularly people in Dunhuang
Academy, how much sacrifice they take. I mean, people, if you've
ever been to Dunhuang, you know. It's [indiscernible]. There is
a place and so their family mostly need to be [indiscernible]
several hour far away, and everyone at Dunhuang Academy really
need to do that. Therefore, for one reason, for really preserve
those cultural heritage for entire mankind. Not just for us, but
for all future generation, and I think the project with Dunhuang,
and I wish do more and really have those lasting impact. And I
think the [indiscernible] will be enjoyed by many, many
generations down the road.
And let me close what I'm saying. I think people really like
what you see, really can relate to you to the things like this,
and it really what you
I know many of our [indiscernible] very
generous when we do the donation to whatever we actually feel
passion about, but please do, one thing I need to mention is the
Dunhuang Foundation also is a registered U.S. charity
organization, which has tax benefit, just like other
like the
United Way and it's also a Microsoft giving [indiscernible]. So
I think I hope I deliver this message to you, and you will
consider that while you're doing this and certainly consider
Dunhuang Foundation.
>> Lolan Song:
back.
Thank you.
So now, question.
Okay.
So from the
>>: Hello. Hi. Think you for the discussion today. My name is
Pamela Wun, and I work in the visual storytelling team here at
Microsoft. I have two questions. My first question is for Mimi.
Mimi, I'm assuming
I actually
I shouldn't assume, but I'm
wondering if the Seattle Asian Art Museum or the Seattle Art
Museum is involved in this, since you're here. What is your role
in this project?
>> Mimi Gardner Gates: If the Seattle Asian Art Museum is
involved in this project?
>>:
With Dunhuang.
>> Mimi Gardner Gates: With Dunhuang, by association. And
because I know I'm on contract. I work with the Gardner center
for Asian art and ideas, and we certainly, we do quite a lot of
programming around Dunhuang. And hopefully, we are
there is
an exhibition being organized, which actually the digital part
will be very important. But the Getty is organizing for 2016
exhibition, and so we need to get it to the Seattle Art Museum
too.
>>: Oh, okay. So your role is in terms of the garden society;
is that what you're saying?
>> Mimi Gardner Gates: Right, right, the Gardner Center, which
actually has great cultural programming. But the Dunhuang, I
have sort of done separately, but hopefully it reflects
positively on the Seattle Art Museum, and we do a lot of lectures
there.
>>: So it's upcoming event, the Getty is currently involved for
2016. But as of right now, Seattle Art Museum is not currently?
>> Mimi Gardner Gates:
We haven't asked them yet.
>>: Okay, got it. Thank you. My second question is around 3D
printing and the
well, the gigapixel camera, was that
specifically made for this project? It sounds like it, yes, or
no? Did I get that wrong?
>>:
You want to do the
>>: We just have the collaborative project with one company to
try to use this technology to do something but not too much.
>>: So the gigapixel camera is [indiscernible] research. But
like I say, we try very hard to find the application, right.
Like I say, the Pusa Buddha will not mind you take gigapixel
picture of his face. People has an issue, right? So I think
and I think so we end up really working mostly our museum
partner. And Dunhuang is probably the [indiscernible] because
the Pusa [indiscernible] and because a lot of painting are mostly
single dimension. Like all your painting, you can show the
depth. So I would say the value for others, just the typical two
dimension style is not that much. And then this is why we
actually, certainly I think we think we make a better
contribution to
not to mention Dunhuang is probably the
everyone, and I think this is why when we donate this camera to
Dunhuang, we actually
the word? Asara?
>> Mimi Gardner Gates:
Asara.
>>: There's another word.
heaven, like.
[indiscernible] means fly into the
>>: So you're saying MSR Asia donated the
MSR Asia created
the gigapixel camera just specifically for this project?
>>: Because you know today, even until today, Microsoft, we
don't commercialize this stuff. We actually view the camera,
software, hardware, every part. Just for your information, we
manufacture every part. And also, there is a model, you can
actually on the tripod, I mean, if you come to [indiscernible], I
will show you how the camera works. So until today, we don't
commercialize that. So I think it's our contribution and
donation to Dunhuang.
And talking about 3D printing, we also have the technology to do
3D printing. We also look forward to working with Dunhuang
Academy. So once you have 3D, you can 3D capture something, and
then it's really up to do you have to print it out. And of
course, like a particular [indiscernible] maybe Dunhuang, the new
visitor center the souvenir shop, people can actually do some
personalized bobble head.
>> Lolan Song: Okay. We have two short questions left.
have three minute left so very short. So first?
Only
>>: Thank you for the very moving and inspiring talk. One very
quick comment and a technical question. The quick comment is
that about a decade ago, yo yo ma had this amazing project for
the Silk Road music project. Just the kind of technology in the
eHeritage project you are doing, I highly suggest we carry that
beyond Dunhuang and go through the whole sick road heritage and
connect the dots between China, Middle East and all the way to
Mediterranean. So that's just a quick comment.
A technical question is that you mentioned Big Data, eHeritage,
and one of the very inspiring points is a lot of historical
research and study is about studying the details and connecting
all the potential information that's hidden in these historical
treasure. And we need technology to do that. My question is
especially I guess for Mimi and director wrong. Humanity
researchers and artists, they don't use technology in ways like
most of us sitting here at Microsoft do. They're not as savvy,
necessarily. So how do we close the gap? You have this amazing
dataset. You captured it. You're putting it into a database.
How do you make it accessible to these historians and artists so
that they can use this for amazing research and discovery? Is
there a role for people like us to play?
>> Mimi Gardner Gates: I don't know exactly what the role is,
but I know as an artist, having open source and having images and
high resolution images available and being able to freely study
those makes a huge difference. I think as younger generations
come on, they're doing more and more. Hopefully, those of us who
are a bit on the aged side are also becoming more savvy. I think
there's a role for you to play.
>>: Also, let me add one. I think certainly like what Mimi say,
I think the people in liberal arts and historians, I think they
actually [indiscernible] the data. But it's purely a digital
edition, and they have a solution. I think it's also important
for
additional tool, almost like [indiscernible] search is a
part of that. If we can help them to search and compare doing
this, of course, we also need to talk to them, because they don't
know what's out there. They know [indiscernible], and they know
the illustrator, but I think it's also important for us to
understand what kind of tool might help them. So I think like
the beauty of the interdiscipline. If we can actually spend more
time with the researcher in Dunhuang and the university arts
department, I think some good things will happen.
>>:
Thank you.
>> Lolan Song:
You can sign me up.
Okay.
The last one.
>>: It's very impressive to see you get funding and you get help
from government and from scientists, from in China and also
foreigners, people not in China to help out to do the
conservation for this heritage.
My question is getting all those challenges, what is your
successful picture look like if you get, let's say, unlimited
funding and you get all the technology you can imagine in the
world and also outside the world. What does the success picture
look like? Do you say okay, we did a wonderful job in conserve
this heritage. What would that look like.
A follow up question on that one is what is the biggest
challenge? Is it funding or technology?
>> Mimi Gardner Gates: I think to have international best
practices, something I really admire about Dunhuang is they
really reach out to the rest of the world. I mean, much of it is
how can we best preserve this site? And I think having highly
trained, one thing that Dunhuang foundation, we've focused on, is
there was a gap in funding for training young Chinese
conservators in wall painting there, and they had a program, but
they had a gap in funding. So we came in to help them.
We want to now train the technicians who do the work in the cave.
How can we do that? So they're in contact with the rest of the
world. They're a remote location. But yet, connecting. But to
have it so that there is an active, ongoing conservation program
that has the capacity to address the size of the challenge, I
think on the conservation side, right, that's part of it.
And site management, reservations, people have to make
reservations and their daily quotas, and everybody understands
that. That's also success, right? So you all should
>>: Let me chip in. I really want to mention, I think the more
understand Dunhuang, the more interest in Dunhuang Academy.
First of all, I don't want to give you rosy picture. I think
actually the situation is actually still very challenging, and
particularly money, okay. I think the reason I want to mention
money, you mention technology. Anything in the end can be
measured in money. Even funding, that gigapixel camera. Not
just the camera itself, the people's time. We pay their salary,
right?
So in the end, it's the money. And then, of course, if you
compare with a few years ago what Director Wang said, it's much
better than a few years ago, particularly 50, 60 years ago, you
remember in the cultural revolution, how do they actually protect
the cave. I will share my [indiscernible]. Every time you do
[indiscernible] and even today, even today, I think that the
challenge, particularly the visitor, particular visitor, and even
Dunhuang today, the funding still come from the entrance fee.
Even do get a donation, right, I don't think if you compare to
other museums of same status or importance [indiscernible] and
then also talking about I would really want to set
now I speak
Chinese. Well, I know that people talking about [indiscernible]
in China. But if you do get to China, China is really in the old
days, like Mimi say, before the [indiscernible], it's how the
east meets the west and then I think all the different religious
how they come to China, China to trade the silk, all this stuff,
it's like an international hub. Like Hong Kong where a hundred
years ago, it's [indiscernible] between China and outside, the
Singapore, the [indiscernible] from the east and the west.
So those historical importance and I also believe the culture
belong to all mankind. And I think if you [indiscernible] what
the non Chinese do in Dunhuang, it's actually British and
Japanese really [indiscernible] the interest of the scholar and
Dunhuang. And I know hundred years ago, China is a difficult
time. But we should really underestimate the contribution
[indiscernible] foundation, the Getty foundation, all this stuff.
And I think that I understand the people think well, it's not in
China, all this. But as long as Chinese, and even more than
Chinese can enjoy all this cultural heritage in any form and I
think that's the big contribution.
And again, I'm saying the based on what I can see, I think that
the, of course, right now you see all these nice pictures, all
this stuff. But if you really go to visit it, still very
challenge and there are many area which we can actually do a
better job with more resource. Let's not say money, resource.
So yeah.
>> Lolan Song: Great. Thank you so much. I just want to have
your last 15 seconds of attention. So one is I do want to,
before we wrap up the session, I want to thank a few people here.
There's people from chimes, Debbie Lu, Sheila Chow and Christy
Herr and [indiscernible]. And also I want to thank people from
MSR, Amy Draves and Sarah [indiscernible]. I want to thank my
colleagues, [indiscernible], who is in Beijing. She prepared a
lot of things used today and also drove the project for the last
few years and also [indiscernible].
And we brought some small gift here. We want to give to you, and
so when you walk out here and if you like to continue to be
involved in this great cause, please leave your name and your
email. And later in September, when Microsoft start giving
campaign, we can work with you. We can continue this effort.
>>:
We'll have more information.
>> Lolan Song: And this piece is, you know, this site is really
a piece of artwork and the picture taken by our gigapixel camera
and in the back there's a lot of information about how, you know,
what you can do from here. So hope you enjoyed the session as
much as I did. Once again, let's thank our three speakers for
their very interesting presentation. Thank you for coming.