November 2007
IEEE P802.19-07/0009r11
IEEE P802.19
Wireless Coexistence
Project
IEEE P802.19 Coexistence TAG
Title
Conference Call Minutes
Date
Submitted
[November 8, 2007]
Source
[Stephen J. Shellhammer]
[Qualcomm, Inc.]
[5775 Morehouse Drive]
[San Diego, CA 92121]
Re:
[]
Abstract
[Conference Call Minutes]
Purpose
[]
Notice
This document has been prepared to assist the IEEE P802.19. It is offered as a
basis for discussion and is not binding on the contributing individual(s) or
organization(s). The material in this document is subject to change in form and
content after further study. The contributor(s) reserve(s) the right to add, amend or
withdraw material contained herein.
Release
The contributor acknowledges and accepts that this contribution becomes the
property of IEEE and may be made publicly available by P802.19.
Submission
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E-mail:
Page 1
[(858) 658-1874]
[(858) 651-3004]
[shellhammer@ieee.org]
Steve Shellhammer, Qualcomm, Inc.
November 2007
IEEE P802.19-07/0009r11
1 Conference Call Times
Date
Start Time
End Time
October 11
11 AM Eastern Time
12 PM Eastern Time
October 25
11 AM Eastern Time
12 PM Eastern Time
November 8
11 AM Eastern Time
12 PM Eastern Time
2 Attendance
Participant
Douglas Chan
Amir Ghasemi
Mariana Goldhammer
Shahar Hauzner
Paul Piggin
Bruce Kramer
Dan Lubar
Shlomo Malka
Nat Natarajan
Ziv Nuss
Eldad Perahia
Ahmed Sadek
Aryan Saed
Steve Shellhammer
Kathy Sohrabi
Ken Stanwood
Adrian Stephens
John Sydor
Darcy Swain
Steve Whitesell
Ariton Xhafa
Submission
August 9
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August 22
Sept 6
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Oct 11
Nov 8
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Page 2
Steve Shellhammer, Qualcomm, Inc.
November 2007
IEEE P802.19-07/0009r11
3 Minutes from March 29 2007 Conference Call
3.1
Agenda
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3.2
Attendance (Steve)
Discuss presentation 802.16h-07/38r1 from Paul Piggin
New Business
Notes
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802.16 bandwidths of 5, 10, 20 MHz are available
802.16 power has not yet been set, will be set to max value permitted in the band
802.16 is a 5 ms frame duration
The 802.11y link budget parameters need to be defined
The 802.11 contention window parameters are given in 11e
In simulation the bandwidth are such that there are four channels for 11y and 16h
Assume omni-directional antenna for 11y and 16h BS and stations
The channels were assigned by considering all the base stations (11y and 16h) and
picking the best channel by optimizing the SIR. This is a global optimization
assuming coordination between 11y and 16h
It was pointed out that the 802.11 MAC is more complex than the model being used
in this simulation
Need to include RTS/CTS and link adaptation
Stanford university (SUI) propagation model
Build a document with simulation parameters assumptions (Paul to start that
document, others to contribute)
John and Amir will present next time
Action Item
Start a document on simulation parameters
Present at the next conference call
Owner
Paul Piggin
John Sydor and Amir Ghasemi
4 Minutes from April 12 2007 Conference Call
Submission
Page 3
Steve Shellhammer, Qualcomm, Inc.
November 2007
4.1
Agenda
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4.2
IEEE P802.19-07/0009r11
Attendance (Steve)
Discuss presentation S802.16h-07/17r1 by Amir Ghasemi and John Sydor
Discuss document 802.19-07/11r0 by Paul Piggin
New Business
Notes
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Amir gave the presentation on simulation of 11y/16h under three conditions
- Baseline
- LBT in 16h
- EQP in 16h
Results show that if there are no hidden nodes that LBT works well and EQP work
okay.
Mariana suggested to add a fragmentation to 11y model
Paul reviewed his document on simulation parameters. We agreed to work on this
document so we have a common set of simulation parameters
Eldad sent out the following two 802.16 documents
- 802.16.3c-01/29
- 802.16.3c-01/53
Several people are unable to make the April 26 call so we may switch it to May 3
The next available time for a face-to-face meeting will be the July Plenary session
5 Minutes from May 3 2007 Conference Call
5.1
Agenda
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Attendance (Steve)
Interference between systems sharing spectrum in 3.65GHz (Mariana Goldhamer)
An update on simulations including changes due to 11e amendment (Paul Piggin)
New Business
Submission
Page 4
Steve Shellhammer, Qualcomm, Inc.
November 2007
5.2
IEEE P802.19-07/0009r11
Notes
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Mariana reviewed document C80216h-07/39r1
There was some discussion about the adjacent channel interference. It would be
useful to review the adjacent channel interference analysis
Paul presented document S80216h-07/50r0 which describes updates to the simulation
Paul is developing. The updates include more accurate models of 802.11 MAC
Action Item – See if we can obtain from Peter Ecclesine a reference on statistics of
packet sizes
Steve will be giving a presentation on CCA-ED in 802.11y at the Montreal meeting.
He will distribute the presentation to members of these calls.
Other items for the Montreal meeting would be to review some of these presentations
and prepare any feedback for the authors
6 Minutes from May 31 2007 Conference Call
6.1
Agenda
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6.2
Attendance
Check to see if anyone is not familiar with the IEEE patent policy
http://standards.ieee.org/board/pat/pat-slideset.pdf
Presentation on Clear Channel Assessment Energy Detection (CCA-ED) in 802.11y
which evaluates CCA-ED in 802.11y with nearby 802.16h (Steve)
http://ieee802.org/19/pub/2007/19-07-0010-01-0000-CCA-ED-in-802.11y.ppt
New business
Notes
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Everyone was familiar with the IEEE patent policy
Steve presented document 802.19-07/0010r1 on CCA-ED in 802.11y
We had a discussion on the interpretation of the 4 s in 11y. Eldad reviewed the 11y
draft while on the call. We probably need to review it off-line and confirm the
interpretation for CCA-ED
Steve needs to modify the threshold so to get 90% PD at the specified signal power
Eldad suggested that Steve consider the effect of the single parity bit in 11a (hence
also 11y) on CCA-CS which is also running in parallel with CCA-ED
Submission
Page 5
Steve Shellhammer, Qualcomm, Inc.
November 2007
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IEEE P802.19-07/0009r11
Next call (June 14) we will attempt to come to an agreement on all the simulation
parameters
Paul suggested Steve schedule 4 hours of 802.19 meeting time in San Francisco
dedicated to this topic of 11y/16h coexistence
7 Minutes from June 14 2007 Conference Call
7.1
Agenda
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7.2
Attendance
Check to see if anyone is not familiar with the IEEE patent policy
http://standards.ieee.org/board/pat/pat-slideset.pdf
Review simulation parameters document (Paul Piggin)
http://ieee802.org/19/pub/2007/19-07-0011-01-0000-Parameters-for-Simulation.doc
New business
Notes
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Everyone was familiar with the IEEE patent policy
Paul presented document 802.19-07/11r1 on simulation parameters
We discussed what value should be used for shadow fading
The document on the SUI model discusses shadow fading
It was suggested a shadow fading margin of 6 dB (90% area coverage probability
assuming an 8 dB shadow fading standard deviation
For the shadow fading we need to also consider the CCA sensing link and the
interference link
- One approach is to pick the shadow fading value randomly between stations
and then keep them fixed for those locations
- On each experiment the shadow fading is fixed between stations are fixed at
the beginning of the experiment since during the experiment the station
locations do not change
Put the fixed clients at 10 meters high
The SUI model is for outdoor operation
When going outdoor to indoor
- Add building penetration loss
Submission
Page 6
Steve Shellhammer, Qualcomm, Inc.
November 2007
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IEEE P802.19-07/0009r11
- Possibly increase the shadow fading standard deviation
Add a description of various scenarios. Make the other parameters dependent on the
scenario
Should consider TX and RX diversity for 16h
Need to review the receiver sensitivity values for 11y
Steve will schedule Wednesday afternoon for the 802.19 meeting in San Francisco for
this topic
Paul will update his document and send out an update to be reviewed on the next call
8 Minutes from June 28 2007 Conference Call
8.1
Agenda
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8.2
Attendance
Check to see if anyone is not familiar with the IEEE patent policy
http://standards.ieee.org/board/pat/pat-slideset.pdf
Review simulation parameters document (Paul Piggin)
http://ieee802.org/19/pub/2007/19-07-0011-01-0000-Parameters-for-Simulation.doc
New business
Notes
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Everyone was familiar with the IEEE patent policy.
Paul presented document 802.19-07/11r2 on simulation parameters. Paul hoped to go
through the document and take some direction from the group on the TBDs and
question marks within the draft. The aim is to have the document in good shape for
the San Francisco plenary and for the document to be at a stage for approval.
Discussion of the scenarios: There was a question about the registration of devices
used in the indoor scenario. For this scenario what are the assumptions about the max.
EIRP. This needs further understanding.
It was suggested that the 802.11n indoor propagation model be used for indoor
scenarios. Eldad cited 11_03_0940_04 as the reference document. This is for 2.4 GHz
and 5.8GHz.
It was expressed that the indoor base station antenna gain may be in the order of 0dBi,
i.e. not the same as the outdoor one expressed as 10dBi.
Submission
Page 7
Steve Shellhammer, Qualcomm, Inc.
November 2007
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IEEE P802.19-07/0009r11
Eldad stated that a possible further direction for the scenarios was to rank them in
order of importance. This importance would be derived from member contribution
and which scenarios were believed to be of most value.
There was some discussion on the diversity gain for multiple antenna systems. This
could be represented in the Fade Margin values. The SUI model is to be reviewed for
any suitable recommendations.
Mariana provided some input on possible modifications to the fixed, portable, and
mobile antenna gains, and the cabling losses. In some cases the cabling loss may be a
connector loss.
Eldad pointed out that the 802.11y medium access timing values were default and
from the standard and represented an indoor propagation scenario. It was noted that
subclause 7.3.2.9 in the 802.11 standard provided instruction on how these timings
could be modified for other deployment scenarios.
Paul Piggin to develop an 11r3 document based on comments received on the call and
action items undertaken before the next call.
Based on the feedback from those present on the call it was decided that a call for
Thursday 12 July would be of benefit and help ahead of the San Francisco plenary
meeting.
There was no new business.
9 Minutes from July 12 2007 Conference Call
9.1
Agenda
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9.2
Attendance
Check to see if anyone is not familiar with the IEEE patent policy
http://standards.ieee.org/board/pat/pat-slideset.pdf
Review simulation parameters document 802.19-07/11r3 (Paul Piggin)
Discuss plans for San Francisco
New business
Notes
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Everyone was familiar with the IEEE patent policy
Goals for this activity
Submission
Page 8
Steve Shellhammer, Qualcomm, Inc.
November 2007

IEEE P802.19-07/0009r11
- Agree on simulation parameters
- Review simulations
- Validate 16h design parameters
Paul presented document 802.19-07/11r3 on simulation parameters
- We reviewed the open items in the document
- We will resolve those items in San Francisco
- We also discussed that we need to agree on what coexistence metrics we
should use
- Review email from Peter Ecclesine on traffic model distribution
- Pick several traffic models to choose from
10 Minutes from August 9 2007 Conference Call
10.1 Agenda
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Attendance
Check to see if anyone is not familiar with the IEEE patent policy
http://standards.ieee.org/board/pat/pat-slideset.pdf
Review simulation parameters document 802.19-07/11r5 (Paul Piggin)
Status of other action items
o Simple link adaptation algorithm
o Set of coexistence metrics for this scenario (Steve)
New business
10.2 Notes
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Paul summarized his new document
We discussed antenna patterns
Paul to send out a link to the WiMAX reference
The simulations will not include TPC in 802.11y
The air propagation times have been revised
Marianna pointed out that the link budget includes losses and receiver sensitivity.
She thinks the sensitivity includes these losses
Marianna pointed out that the document must specify the number of sub-carriers for
each CPE
Marianna will email out the comments in detail
Submission
Page 9
Steve Shellhammer, Qualcomm, Inc.
November 2007

IEEE P802.19-07/0009r11
Aryan Saed briefly reviewed his document on link adaptation. We will review it in
more detail on the next conference call
11 Minutes from August 22 2007 Conference Call
11.1 Agenda
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Attendance
Check to see if anyone is not familiar with the IEEE patent policy
http://standards.ieee.org/board/pat/pat-slideset.pdf
Discuss comments from Marianna on simulation parameter documents (Paul)
Discussion on simulation parameter document 802.19-07/0011r6 (Paul)
Simple link adaptation algorithm (Aryan Saed)
Set of coexistence metrics for this scenario (Steve)
New business
11.2 Notes
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Paul addressed issues in his notes, the minutes, email from Marianna
Paul accepted all of Marianna’s first set of comments.
Paul will look at Marianna’s next comment on Coordinated Contention-Based
Protocol (CXCBP) [1], clause 15.4.2.1.3 – C)
Eldad pointed out that all the 11y devices will implement quiet periods for radar
detection for DFS (spectrum management flag is set to True)
Eldad to send out details on quiet periods in Spectrum Management
Marianna will send out some information CXCBP to be included into Paul’s
simulation document
Marianna stated that the algorithm in the link adaptation modifies the MCS too
quickly
Eldad pointed out that we should not mandate the link adaptation used in the
simulation
Paul to put in some text on what simulation parameters are more flexible
Paul to add the fixed MCS as a link adaptation algorithm
Marianna pointed out that we need a required SNR for each MCS in 802.11y
Eldad pointed we can convert from receiver sensitivity to SNR by using the assumed
10 dB noise figure (in 802.11a standard). Includes a 5 dB implementation loss.
Submission
Page 10
Steve Shellhammer, Qualcomm, Inc.
November 2007
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IEEE P802.19-07/0009r11
Marianna pointed out we need to consider the OFDMA in 802.16h
We need to include a traffic model for data (current model only includes VoIP)
Marianna will send out a link to a 3GPP2 document on traffic models
12 Minutes from September 6 2007 Conference Call
12.1 Agenda
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Attendance
Check to see if anyone is not familiar with the IEEE patent policy
http://standards.ieee.org/board/pat/pat-slideset.pdf
Discussion on simulation parameter document 802.19-07/0011r7 (Paul)
Set of coexistence metrics for this scenario 802.19-07/0020r0 (Steve)
Simple link adaptation algorithm (Aryan Saed)
New business
12.2 Notes
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Paul described structural changes to the document
Mariana described the new material describing the Coordinated Contention Based
Protocol
Paul asked about a potential synchronization drift between the 11y and 16h networks,
due to the fact that the 11y and 16h periods are not divisible to one another
Bruce raised a concern about synchronizing multiple 11y networks with 16h
Mariana discussed that in this band there will be operator cooperation
Steve went over document 802.19-07/0020r0 on coexistence metrics
Eldad asked how many simulations would be needed to get good estimates of the tail
probabilities
Paul’s first thought is that the time would not be too band based on his previous
simulation work, but since he has only dealt with averages he would need to look at it
closer
Mariana suggested we select a simple set of topologies, similar to what Steve had
done in estimating hidden node probabilities
Mariana suggested adding as a coexistence metric an outage probability
Paul suggested adding at a coexistence metric the occupancy rate, which is the
percentage of time that a network has access to the medium
Submission
Page 11
Steve Shellhammer, Qualcomm, Inc.
November 2007

IEEE P802.19-07/0009r11
Bruce suggested that Steve socialize this more with the 802.11 working group at the
September IEEE meeting
13 Minutes from October 11 2007 Conference Call
13.1 Agenda
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Attendance
Check to see if anyone is not familiar with the IEEE patent policy
http://standards.ieee.org/board/pat/pat-slideset.pdf
Presentation on “Enhancements to UCP LBT: Supporting simulation results” doc
S802.16h-07/82 (Paul)
New business
13.2 Notes
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Amendments to section on LBT based on the most recent version of draft (D3)
Added a sentence in sim doc on simulation on sync
Will remove an old section in revision 9
Considering dropping the extended quiet period.
New method involves 802.16h sends a reservation signal based on an 802.11 CTS
signal to reserve the medium
It is not necessary to steal any symbols for channel listening since there is some idle
time already built in.
We will finish reviewing the presentation on the next call.
14 Minutes from November 8 2007 Conference Call
14.1 Agenda
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Attendance
Check to see if anyone is not familiar with the IEEE patent policy
http://standards.ieee.org/board/pat/pat-slideset.pdf
Discussion on planned joint meeting with 16h/19
Submission
Page 12
Steve Shellhammer, Qualcomm, Inc.
November 2007
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IEEE P802.19-07/0009r11
Update to Paul’s document
New business
14.2 Notes
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Joint meeting on Tuesday PM2 (4-6 PM)
- Finalize the simulation parameters document
- Overview of CA document process
- Overview of protocols in 16h
- Discuss the approach for the 16h CA document
We discussed some improvements to the sim document
- Specify a typical number client stations (don’t simulate the max number of
users)
- Specify a subset of the simulations to prevent having to run too many
simulations.
Submission
Page 13
Steve Shellhammer, Qualcomm, Inc.