November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
[Responses to Comments on 802.22.3]
IEEE P802.22 Wireless RANs
Authors:
Name
Company
Wendong Hu
STMicroelectronics
Victor Tawil
MSTV
Address
1060 East Brokaw Road,
San Jose, CA 95131
Washington, DC
Date: 2009-11-17
Phone
email
1-408-467-8410
Wendong.hu@st.com
vtawil@mstv.org
Notice: This document has been prepared to assist IEEE 802.22. It is offered as a basis for discussion and is not binding on the contributing individual(s) or organization(s). The material in
this document is subject to change in form and content after further study. The contributor(s) reserve(s) the right to add, amend or withdraw material contained herein.
Release: The contributor grants a free, irrevocable license to the IEEE to incorporate material contained in this contribution, and any modifications thereof, in the creation of an IEEE
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others to reproduce in whole or in part the resulting IEEE Standards publication. The contributor also acknowledges and accepts that this contribution may be made public by IEEE 802.22.
Patent Policy and Procedures: The contributor is familiar with the IEEE 802 Patent Policy and Procedures http://standards.ieee.org/guides/bylaws/sb-bylaws.pdf including the
statement "IEEE standards may include the known use of patent(s), including patent applications, provided the IEEE receives assurance from the patent holder or applicant with respect to
patents essential for compliance with both mandatory and optional portions of the standard." Early disclosure to the Working Group of patent information that might be relevant to the standard
is essential to reduce the possibility for delays in the development process and increase the likelihood that the draft publication will be approved for publication. Please notify the Chair
Wendong Hu as early as possible, in written or electronic form, if patented technology (or technology under patent application) might be incorporated into a draft standard being developed
within the IEEE 802.22 Working Group. If you have questions, contact the IEEE Patent Committee Administrator at patcom@iee.org.
Submission
Slide 1
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Outline
•
•
•
•
•
Comments from and response to 802.19
Comments from and responses to 802.11
Comments from and responses to 802.16
Comments from and responses to Paul Nikolich
Comments from and response to James Gilb
Submission
Slide 2
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Abstract
• This document provides responses to comments
received on the 802.22.3 PAR and 5C
Submission
Slide 3
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Comments from 802.19
Submission
Slide 4
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Questions and Responses to 802.19
• Question: Section 5.1 states that the approximate number of people
expected to work on this project is 100
• Problem: Completion of the current standard and current
population working on the draft indicates that there may not be
100 people with time available to work on this project
• Solution: In response to this comment please provide a basis for
this number
• Response: Accept comment
• Proposed Resolution
– Change the number in the PAR to 30
Submission
Slide 5
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Questions and Responses to 802.19
• Question: Section 5.4 -The purpose discusses enabling rapid
worldwide deployment
• Problem: Neither the Need (PAR) or the Technical or Economic
Feasibility (5C) discuss enabling rapid worldwide deployment
• Solution: Remove comments about rapid worldwide deployment,
or address rapid worldwide deployment in the Need and the
Technical and Economic Feasibility sections
• Response: Accept comment
• Proposed Resolution
– Delete the comment about rapid worldwide deployment
Submission
Slide 6
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Questions and Responses to 802.19
• Question: Explanatory Note 8.1 - The explanatory notes includes
the sentence “The IEEE 802.22.3 standard is intended to be
integrated to IEEE 802.22 standard”
• Problem: It is unclear what integrating the 802.22.3 standard into
the 802.22 standard means
• Solution: Please explain what this means or as an alternative
remove this sentence
• Response: Accept comment
• Proposed Resolution
–
Submission
Change the sentence to state: “The IEEE 802.22.3 standard is intended to be
integrated into IEEE 802.22 family of standards”
Slide 7
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Comments from 802.11
Submission
Slide 8
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Questions and Responses to 802.11
• Question 1: Doc. 11-09/1106 discusses possible issues
with the PAR and 5C submitted by Peter E
• Response: Accept document
• Proposed Resolution
– See document IEEE802.22. 09-235 addressing the questions and
comments in doc.11-09-1106
Submission
Slide 9
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Questions and Responses to 802.11
•
Question: 2.1 Title of Standard- Cognitive Medium Access Control
(MAC) and Physical Layer (PHY) specifications: Policies and procedures
for Scalable operations of Wireless Regional Area Networks (WRAN) in
the TV Bands.
– Issue 1: delete “Policies and procedures for “ from the title. This is a standard
for…
Response: Accept comment
– Issue 2: The full title is not listed in the PAR form.. It should have the Boiler Plate
from 802 followed by “Part 22” followed by the designation that this is for the
“WRAN..” and then the specific designation of what is being covered.
Response: Accept comment
– Issue 3: the title for 802.22.3 should be Distinct and yet consistent with the
802/802.22 family of titles.
Response: Accept comment
Proposed Resolution
Change to: “Information Technology -Telecommunications and information exchange
between systems – Local and Metropolitan Area Networks – Specific requirements
– Part 22.3: Wireless Regional Area Networks (WRAN), Cognitive Medium
Access Control (MAC) and Physical Layer (PHY) specifications: Standard for
scalable operation in the TV Bands”
Submission
Slide 10
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Questions and Responses to 802.11
• Question: Section 8.1 NotesRemove the following text “Item Number: 5.5 (Need for the Project):
The IEEE 802.22.3 standard is intended to be integrated to IEEE 802.22
standard. This may be more correctly included in 5.5.
Response: Accept comment
Proposed Resolution
Modified text accordingly
Submission
Slide 11
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Questions and Responses to 802.11
• Question: 5C Distinct Identity• a) Substantially different from other IEEE 802 standards. Table
– Issue 5: Page 8 of 11-09-1106r0 shows several errors in the table and in
the explanation notes.
• Please correct as noted in 11-09/1106r0.
Response; Accept comment
Proposed Resolution
Necessary corrections/changes have been made in the revised PAR/5C document.
Submission
Slide 12
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Questions and Responses to 802.11
•
Question: Technical Feasibility
– the statements are very broad, and in some cases not accurate…” Existing
802 wireless standards in other bands (e.g. 802.11h) have demonstrated
that detection and avoidance of operation in spectrum occupied by
licensed users is technically feasible.”
The 802.11h does not do detect and avoid (DAA) it only specified DFS
and TPC.
Response: Accept comment
Proposed Resolution
The statement was modified appropriately
– The statements should address the “demonstrated” technology that
show the technical feasibility.
Response: Accept comment
Proposed Resolution
The statement was modified to provide the “demonstrated” technologies (by cited examples)
that can be leveraged by the proposed 802.22.3
Submission
Slide 13
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Questions and Responses to 802.11
•
Question: Technical Feasibility (continued)
– Issue 8: The addition of “Scalable” as the main focus, should be addressed
in the 5C to show the distinct difference from the base 22 standard.
Response: Accept comment
Proposed Resolution
The distinct different from the base 22 standard of the 802.22.3 is provided in a
revised text.
– Issue 9 (to be renumbered as #1): If 802.22.3 is an extension of
802.22, and creating a “Scalable” extension of the standard, then
this should be an amendment. The Amendment should be created
after the standard is approved to allow a consistent target for the
amendment to modify.
Response: Reject Comment
“Scalable” is not an extension of 802.22. It addresses a different area of TVWS operation of WRAN
as opposed to that of 802.22, and does not depend on the completion of 802.22 project.
Proposed Clarification
Propose a clarification by changing the wording for the purpose to: “The purpose of
this standard is to specify scalable wireless regional area network (WRAN)
operations in the TVWS, enabling WRAN deployments and communications in
flexible network topologies and range, with greater network coverage, offering a
variety of in-door and out-door network services.
Submission
Slide 14
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Comments from 802.16
Submission
Slide 15
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Comments from IEEE 802.16
• General Comments:
– This is a clearly immature document, with significant level of selfinconsistency and ambiguity. It has not reached the level of clarity
that is required for acceptance of a PAR at NesCom.
• Response: 802.22 WG believes the revised document meets the
requirements as an acceptable PAR at NesCom.
– The PAR needs to be self-contained, and terminology (examples:
Mode 1, Mode II, Scalable, Seamless handoff, ….) should be
clearly defined and not require the use of external references
except for background information.
• Response: 802.22 WG believes the revised document addresses the
concerns
– The Working Group Chair’s name is misspelled in Section 3.1
• Response: This is corrected in the revised document.
Submission
Slide 16
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Comments from IEEE 802.16
• Distinct Identity issue
– We have questions on distinct identity of Portable 802.22.3
WRAN cells versus 802.11 WLANs operating in the TV
Whitespace. We believe that Wireless Local Area Networks are
addressed better by IEEE Std 802.11. We also note that this
statement in the notes section (8.1) indicates a violation of distinct
identity: “Scalable WRAN services may include: 1) wireless
broadband access, 2) WiFi-like services to end-users, and 3)
seamless integrations of the above 1) and 2)”.
• Response: One distinct identity of Portable 802.22.3 WRANs versus
802.11 WLANs is the capability of 802.22.3 devices to communicate
with 802.22 WRAN devices in an interoperable manner. 802.22 WG
believes that 802.22.3 WRAN is an appropriate alternative to 802.11
WLAN to address wireless broadband access over small
communication ranges in the TV bands especially when 802.22
WRANs are to be operated. The quoted statement has been revised.
Submission
Slide 17
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Comments from IEEE 802.16
• In Section 5.2 (Scope of Proposed Standard )
– We see no text indicating that this P802.22.3 standard would
support compatibility with the P802.22 project, except for the
vague statement “The IEEE 802.22.3 standard is intended to be
integrated to IEEE 802.22 standard” in the notes.To maintain
distinct identity, it would be appropriate to support backward
compatibility with P802.22 instead of defining a completely
incompatible PHY or MAC specification.
• Response: 802.22 WG agrees that P802.22.3 technology be
compatible with the 802.22 technology. This is indicated in the 5C.
New text has been added in section 8.1 (additional explanatory notes)
to highlight the interoperability between 802.22.3 and 802.22
technologies.
Submission
Slide 18
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Comments from IEEE 802.16
•
In Section 5.2 (Scope of Proposed Standard):
– What does “scalable operations” imply? What is not within such a
scope? We believe it is too broad and unclear. Perhaps it would be
beneficial to itemize those aspects that are not included within the
concept of “scalability”
• Response: The following definition of scalable WRAN operations has
been added to the revised PAR document:”Scalable WRAN
operations: deployments and communications of WRAN devices in
flexible network topologies and network coverage with flexible
communication range for a variety of in-door and our-door wireless
broadband access services”. We don’t believe enumerating what
“scalability” is not would be helpful.
Submission
Slide 19
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Comments from IEEE 802.16
• In Section 8.1 Additional Explanatory Notes:
– What does “Scalable WRAN communication ranges” mean? Does it
include typical ranges of WMANs, WLANs, WPANs, and Wireless Body
Area Networks?
• Response: “Scalable WRAN communication ranges” refers to variable ranges
of communications as allowed for fixed and personal/portable devices in the
FCC rules. It includes typical ranges of from 10s of meters to 10s of
kilometers.
– What does the phrase “seamless handoff” imply here? Does this mean
handoff within the fixed WRAN network (intra-network) or across fixed
and portable WRAN cells (inter-network)? We believe the term
“seamless” in connection to handoff is superfluous. Also, is handoff to
P802.22 supported?
• Response: The phrase “seamless handoff” means inter-network handoff
between fixed and the portable WRAN cells as well as between different
portable WRAN cells. We agree “seamless” is superfluous. Text has been
modified accordingly.
Submission
Slide 20
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Comments from Paul Nikolich
and James Gilb
Submission
Slide 21
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Comments from Paul Nikolich
•
There is a fair degree of common language in the coexistence language
taken from the above 3 draft PARs addressing the TV Whitespace bands.
Since the 3 draft PARs (dot 19, dot11 and dot22) are being proposed
simultaneously the groups haven't had much time to work on
coordinating their activities on the draft PAR language. However it will
be useful for EC members to better understand how the groups are
thinking about coordinating their coexistence specifications going
forward.
I understand the groups have begun general discussion on coordinating
their activities--this is good. I believe any specifics that each of you can
provide regarding future coordination mechanisms among the 3 projects
would be useful to the EC members.
Response: 1) IEEE 802.22 standards will adopt coexistence specifications that
do not conflict with those adopted by ot 19 and dot11.
2) IEEE 802.22 WG will establish liaisons with TAG19 (or future
WG19) and WG11 for coordinating activities in developing coexistence
mechanisms.
Submission
Slide 22
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
General Comments from James Gilb
• It appears that we have multiple PARs that potentially deal with
the same problem but leading to different solutions to the same
problem. There can be reasons to do this, but I think we would
benefit by working together in some of these areas. For example,
the systems in these bands will need to access a database of
incumbents. The access to this database should be the same in any
standard we develop.
Response: 802.22 WG agrees to work together with other WGs in
some common areas of TVWS operation and jointly develop
common solutions to specific issues such as incumbent database
access and coexistence. 802.22 WG will establish liaisons with
TAG19 (or future WG19) and WG11 for coordinating activities in
developing solutions to the common problems.
Submission
Slide 23
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
General Comments from James Gilb
(cont’d)
• Coexistence: We (802) have proposal for a project to define
coexistence between these systems, but neither PAR references
this. I would hope that we can find some language that strongly
encourages the TVWS MAC/PHY groups to adopt the work of the
coexistence group. However, I would not be happy with the case
where the groups were held up waiting for completion of the
coexistence standard.
• I would encourage the 802.11 TVWS and 802.22.3 to find
agreement on language that requires support of the 802.19
methods, if they are completed in a timely manner.
Response: 802.22 WG will support the work of 802.19 and their
timely conclusion
Submission
Slide 24
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Specific Comments from James Gilb
• See document IEEE 802.22.138 for resolution
Submission
Slide 25
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics
November 2009
doc.: IEEE 802.22-09/0237r0
Comments from Bob Grow
• Work of SCC41
– 802.22 WG quotes IEEE 1900.4 project in the PARs.n
Submission
Slide 26
Wendong Hu, STMicroelectronics