September 2006
doc: IEEE 802/xxx
IEEE 802 LMSC recommendation
to ISO/IEC JTC1/SC6
for the review of 8802-1 & related documents
19 September 2006
Version 07
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Slide 1
IEEE 802 LMSC
September 2006
doc: IEEE 802/xxx
Change history
v.2 – 31 Aug 06
v.4 – 8 Sept 06
• Significant changes based on various emails & US TAG teleconference, including
• Fixed typo’s noted by Carl Stevenson on
pp8 & pp 15
– Pat Thaler on copyright
– David Law on IPR
V.5 – 18 Sept 06
• Various typos fixed
v.3 – 4 Sept 06
• Changed to “… PANs, LANs, MANs, RANs,
& WANs” on pp20 based on suggestion
from J Lemon
• Also noted that while 8802-1 mostly
focuses on LANs it does mention MANs
• Changed pp14 so that NB reps can
comment, based on suggestion by Geoff
Thompson
• Significant changes to pp 9 based on
comments from Tony Jeffree & Pat Thaler
• Fixed editorials on pp 22 wrt IPR
V.6 – 18 Sept 06
• Fixed editorial on pp 18 wrt copyright
• Incorporated text suggestions on pp 9 from
Carl Stevenson & Mike Lynch
• Fixed typo on pp 13, specifying we meant
802 maintenance process
V.6 – 18 Sept 06
• Incorporated text suggestions on pp 9 from
Tony Jeffree
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Slide 2
IEEE 802 LMSC
September 2006
doc: IEEE 802/xxx
This glossary defines the specific ISO/IEC & IEEE
related terminology used in this presentation
ISO/IEC terminology
IEEE terminology
• JTC1 - ISO/IEC JTC1
• 802 - IEEE 802 LSMC
• SC6 - ISO/IEC JTC1/SC6
• 802.x - IEEE 802.x standard
• WG1 - ISO/IEC JTC1/SC6/WG1
• 802.11i - IEEE 802.11i amendment to IEEE
802.11
• 8802-x - ISO/IEC 8802-x standard
• 8802-1 - ISO/IEC 8802-1:2001 TR
• NB - National Body
• TR - Technical Report
• WG - Working Group
• LB - WG Letter Ballot
• SB - Sponsor Ballot
• LoA - Letter of Assurance
Glossary
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Slide 3
IEEE 802 LMSC
September 2006
doc: IEEE 802/xxx
This presentation represents 802’s input to SC6’s
review of the 8802-1 cooperation agreement
SC6 has started a review of the
8802-1 cooperation agreement
802 has approved this presentation as
input into the SC6 review
• Difficult issues related to the approval of
WAPI as an amendment to 8802-11 were
recently avoided
• An 802 goal is standards that reflect the
needs of all stakeholders & have wide
international acceptance
• The WAPI debate highlighted various
issues with the 8802-1 cooperation
agreement between SC6 & 802
• 8802-1 & related documents provide a
good basis for cooperation between 802 &
SC6
• The 8802-1 cooperation agreement has
fallen into disuse & has practical
implementation issues
• 8802-1 should be modified so that
international standardisation can always be
achieved ...
• SC6 has started a review to resolve the
problems with the 8802-1 cooperation
agreement
• … and various guiding principles,
processes, responsibilities & authorities are
clarified
• Paul Nikolich (Chair of IEEE 802) should be
contacted for any clarification of these
comments
Summary
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Slide 4
IEEE 802 LMSC
September 2006
doc: IEEE 802/xxx
Difficult issues related to the approval of WAPI as an
amendment to ISO/IEC 8802-11 were recently avoided
Approval of WAPI as an amendment to
8802-11 was problematic
The difficult problems were avoided since
WAPI was not approved
• In 2005, WAPI & 802.11i were both
submitted to JTC1 as amendments to
8802-11 using the JTC1 Fast Track ballot
procedure
• Problems related to the approval of WAPI
as an amendment to 8802-11 do not need
to be addressed because only 802.11i (&
not WAPI) was approved by the Fast Track
process
• Approval of both amendments would have
been problematic because they contained
contradictory editing instructions to the
base 8802-11 standard being amended
• 802.11i has now been approved for
publication as an ISO/IEC international
standard
• Approval of WAPI would have also been
problematic because this would have made
it difficult for any further amendments to
8802-11 given the differences that would
have existed between 802.11 (using
802.11i) & 8802-11 (using WAPI)
Situation – WAPI issues avoided
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Slide 5
IEEE 802 LMSC
September 2006
doc: IEEE 802/xxx
The WAPI debate highlighted various issues with the
8802-1 cooperation agreement between SC6 & 802
The 8802-1 agreement was quoted during
the WAPI debate
The WAPI debate highlighted many
questions about the agreement
• During the WAPI debate, the existing
cooperation agreement between 802 &
SC6 (8802-1) was quoted to support
positions related to whether or not 802.11i
and/or WAPI should be approved
• The bulk of the 8802-1 defined cooperation
process was not used for WAPI or 802.11i
approval
• This document mostly contains a general
(& somewhat dated) introduction to 802 &
other standards for wired & wireless LANs
• However, many questions were raised
during the debate that should be covered
by any future revised cooperation
agreement between ISO/IEC & 802
• Some of those questions included:
• Clause 4 defines a detailed process for
cooperation between 802 & SC6 that
“records the involvement & endorsement of
JTC1/SC6 NBs in the standards making
process”
– Who owns the copyright of 8802-xx standards?
– Can/should an 8802-xx standard be modified by
ISO/IEC without 802 permission?
– Are 8802-xx standards covered by IPR
statements made to 802?
Complication – WAPI highlights issues
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Slide 6
IEEE 802 LMSC
September 2006
doc: IEEE 802/xxx
The 8802-1 cooperation agreement has fallen into
disuse & has practical implementation issues
The ISO/IEC & 802 cooperation agreement
is no longer used
The ISO/IEC & 802 cooperation agreement
has practical difficulties
• The processes defined in 8802-1 have
never been used in full given the catalogue
in the annex is empty
• It is not clear what benefit is gained by
maintaining the 8802-1 document & so it
has not happened
• There is no known case where the
endorsement process has been used
• Recent attempts to use the endorsement
process defined in 8802-1 for 802.11ma
approval failed when multiple Liaison
statements to SC6 were not forwarded to
the SC6 NBs
• This suggests it may have little value in its
current form to 802 or ISO/IEC
• In recent times, most (if not all) 802
submissions to ISO/IEC have used the
JTC1 Fast Track process
– Probably because it definitely gives a 802.x
document “standards status”
• Typically NBs require much longer lead
times than typically available (15-30 days)
to consider 802 drafts
Complication – 8802-1 not used
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Slide 7
IEEE 802 LMSC
September 2006
doc: IEEE 802/xxx
SC6 has started a review to resolve the problems
with the 8802-1 cooperation agreement
SC6 are undertaking a review of the
cooperation agreement with 802
The review will draw on the opinions of all
stakeholders
• In June 06, SC6 decided unanimously to
review the current cooperation agreement
& related documents including:
• SC6 have requested input from all
stakeholders
– ISO/IEC JTC1/SC6 6N11917: Procedures for
ISO/IEC JTC1 SC6 WG1 & IEEE 802 LMSC
Cooperative Working
– ISO/IEC TR 8802-1:2001: Overview of Local
Area Network Standards
– Other relevant document, including motion 6.3.1
from ISO/IEC JTC1/SC6 6N11240
• The review requires input to the 8802-1
project editor by 27 Sept 06
• The list of stakeholders includes:
– SC6 Secretariat & National Bodies
– JTC1 Secretariat & National Bodies
– ITTF
– IEEE SA
– IEE 802 LMSC
• This document is the IEEE 802 LMSC’s
initial input
Complication – SC6 reviewing 8802-1
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Slide 8
IEEE 802 LMSC
September 2006
doc: IEEE 802/xxx
An 802 goal is standards that reflect the needs of all
stakeholders & have wide international acceptance
802 wants its standards to reflect the
needs of a wide variety of stakeholders
802 wants its standards to have the widest
possible international acceptance
• 802 has developed very successful PAN,
LAN, MAN & RAN standards
• The WTO & similar organisations give
special status to "international standards“
that assists global acceptance
• This success is partially due to an open
standards development process that
encourages & enables participation by a
wide variety of stakeholders
• A benefit for 802 of a cooperative
relationship with ISO/IEC is access to the
views & expertise of NBs, which represent
another valuable set of stakeholders
• The definition of an "international standard"
is not always clear, however we note that
both ITU-R & ITU-T have recognised IEEE
as an international SDO by granting IEEE
membership in the same category as ISO
• Nevertheless, an ISO/IEC standard may be
more acceptable to some stakeholders as
an “international standard”
• A potential benefit for 802 of a cooperative
relationship with ISO/IEC is that it provides
802 WG’s with the option of establishing
"international standard" status for an 802.x
standard through ISO/IEC using a simple
documented cooperation process
Conclusion – Goals
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Slide 9
IEEE 802 LMSC
September 2006
doc: IEEE 802/xxx
8802-1 & related documents provide a good basis
for cooperation between 802 & SC6
IEEE
ISO/IEC
Start WG LB
Rx request for LB comments
To/From SC6 & JTC1 NBs
Close WG LB
Tx comment on WG LB
Resolve WG LB
Cooperation at LB stage
only defined in 6N11917
Start SB
Rx request for SB comments
To/From SC6 & JTC1 NBs
Close SB
Tx comment on SB
Resolve SB
Endorsement process
Standardisation process
Amend & ballot 8802-1 TR
Approve by JTC1 Fast Track
Publish 8802-1 TR
Publish 8802-x standard
Approval by Standards Board
Publish 802.x standard
Source: diagram in 6N11917, text in 8802-1
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Conclusion - 802
Slide 10
IEEE 802 LMSC
September 2006
doc: IEEE 802/xxx
8802-1 should be modified so that international
standardisation can always be achieved ...
IEEE
ISO/IEC
Start WG LB
Rx request for LB comments
To/From SC6 & JTC1 NBs
Close WG LB
Tx comment on WG LB
Resolve WG LB
Start SB
Rx request for SB comments
To/From SC6 & JTC1 NBs
Close SB
Resolve SB
Approval by Standards Board
Tx comment on SB
ISO/IEC need to decide on a process that
can be used to create a 8802-x standard from
the endorsement process
Amend & ballot 8802-1 TR
Approve by JTC1 Fast Track
?
Publish 802.x standard
Publish 8802-1 TR
Publish 8802-x standard
Conclusion - 802
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Slide 11
IEEE 802 LMSC
September 2006
doc: IEEE 802/xxx
… and various guiding principles, processes,
responsibilities and authorities are clarified
8802-1 should …
• Specify only 802 has the authority to make
changes to the 8802-x versions of 802.x
standards
• Specify both 802 & ISO/IEC are able to
veto or withdraw a 8802-x standard at any
time
• 8802-1 should redefine a review role for NB
reps during the development of potential
8802-x standards
• Make it clear IEEE retains copyright of all
material in 8802-x standards
• Specify more effective liaison solutions,
leveraging technology as appropriate
• Add to the endorsement process by adding
a step that approves an 8802-x standard
• Clarify the IPR situation for 8802-x
standards
• Specify that 8802-x standards are not
limited to LAN technology
• Not contain any technical material
Conclusion – 802
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Slide 12
IEEE 802 LMSC
September 2006
doc: IEEE 802/xxx
8802-1 should specify only 802 has the authority to make
changes to the 8802-x versions of 802.x standards
Comment
Proposed resolution
• There were long discussions during the
WAPI debate about whether 8802-11 could
be amended without agreement from the
IEEE 802.11 WG
• The overall goal should be that 8802-x
standards & the equivalent 802.x standards
are the same
• However, allowing any 8802-x standard to
be amended independently of 802 is at
odds with:
– 8802-1, which highlights the “… undoubted
standing of IEEE 802 as the international body
that makes LAN standards …”
– 6N11917, which notes that 8802-x standards
shouldn’t be modified without agreement from
IEEE SA
• It is also impractical to allow two
organisations to independently modify the
same document
• This requires 8802-1 to specify that 802
must authorise any technical or editorial
changes to the 8802-x versions of 802.x
standards
– eg, the proposed WAPI amendment to 8802-11
from within JTC1 would probably not have been
allowed
• It is likely that any problems found by NBs
after the 802.x standard has been ratified
by IEEE are minor in nature & can be fixed
in the 802 maintenance revision process
– eg, a number of minor issues identified by the
Chinese NB during the 802.11i Fast Track ballot
have already been included in 802.11ma
– eg, WAPI approval would have made it almost
impossible for further amendments to 8802-11
based on IEEE 802.11WG work
Conclusion – 802 –Delegated authority
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Slide 13
IEEE 802 LMSC
September 2006
doc: IEEE 802/xxx
8802-1 should redefine a review role for NB reps
during the development of potential 8802-x standards
Comment
Proposed resolution
• It is vital that the SC6 NBs should have an
effective & ongoing ability to contribute to
the 802 standards development
• 8802-1 should be modified to allow SC6 &
JTC1 NBs to be notified from the earliest
stages of development & on an on-going
basis of any 802.x standards that may be
submitted for ISO/IEC standardisation
• Any SC6 NBs could achieve this goal by
participating directly in 802 standards
development activities
• 8802-1 should also be modified to allow
multiple NB representatives to comment on
behalf of the NB (although this would not be
an official NB position)
• However, 8802-1 has not been effective in
enabling or promoting formal, direct
contributions from SC6 NBs
• This is particularly true during the early
stages of development
– eg 8802-1 only provides for NB input during SBs
& not during earlier LBs
– Interestingly, 6 N11917 does provide for
participation in LBs
• Easy access by NB’s to drafts, regular
liaisons, and the ability for NB
representatives to vote should help
overcome issues related to relatively short
ballot cycles in 802
• It is also often difficult for NBs to establish
an official NB position in the time scales
required for LBs and SBs
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Conclusion – 802 – SC6 review
Slide 14
IEEE 802 LMSC
September 2006
doc: IEEE 802/xxx
8802-1 should specify more effective liaison
solutions, leveraging technology as appropriate
Comment
Proposed resolution
• The 802 standards development process
can sometimes move very quickly
• The leadership of 802 & SC6 should
explore mechanisms to improve the liaison
relationship between SC6 & 802
– eg in the latter stages of balloting 10 or 15 day
ballots are possible
• However, these timescales do not leave
much time for bureaucratic formal liaison
processes, particularly if they involve
manual real time secretariat functions
• New solutions could leverage technology
based solutions:
– eg, LB & SB notifications could be sent directly
& automatically to an e-mail reflector
(maintained by SC6) for distribution to SC6 NBs
– This mechanism was outlined in 6N11917 but
apparently never implemented
Conclusion – 802 - Liaison
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Slide 15
IEEE 802 LMSC
September 2006
doc: IEEE 802/xxx
8802-1 should add to the endorsement process by
adding a step that approves an 8802-x standard
Comment
Proposed resolution
• 8802-1 implies that if the endorsement
process is followed then the only result is a
TR to record WG1 involvement in the work
• JTC1 & SC6 should develop a modified
process for 8802-1 that combines:
– An endorsement process similar to the one in
8802-1 that enables early & ongoing NB input to
802.x standards development
– A final approval step that results in a 8802-x
standard with no changes from the equivalent
802.x standard
• However, this is probably insufficient to
achieve 802’s goal for an 8802-x standard
• A JTC1 Fast Track ballot allows 802’s goal
for an 8802-x standard to be achieved
• However, the current Fast Track comment
process invites detailed comment that
cannot practically be acted upon, given the
need to keep 8802-x standards
synchronised with 802.x standards
• This step will connect the endorsement
process on the proposed process diagram
slide to the publication process
• ISO/IEC must decide on their own internal
processes but one potential option is that
after using the endorsement process, a
JTC1 Fast Track ballot is held that:
– Results in a “go/no go” decision
– Resolves any comments by feeding them into
the 802 maintenance process
Conclusion – 802 – Fast track
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Slide 16
IEEE 802 LMSC
September 2006
doc: IEEE 802/xxx
8802-1 should specify both 802 & ISO/IEC are able
to veto or withdraw a 8802-x standard at any time
Comment
Proposed resolution
• The underlying assumption of 8802-1 is
that there is value in:
• 8802-1 should specify that both 802 &
ISO/IEC have a veto of any decision to
publish an 802.x standard as an 8802-x
standard
– 802 submitting 802.x standards to SC6 for
international standardisation
– SC6 reviewing & approving these submissions
as 8802-x standards
• 8802-1 should also specify both 802 &
ISO/IEC have the right to withdraw an
8802-x standard after publication
• While this is generally accepted in 802 &
ISO/IEC, it is not true for all 802.x
standards & may not remain true over time
– A situation may arise during the standardisation
process such that it no longer makes sense to
continue towards publication
– Even after publication, a situation may arise
whereby it makes sense to withdraw a standard
– eg it might make sense to withdraw a 8802-x
standard if an amendment was vetoed, on the
basis that 802 would no longer be able to
maintain the standard
– Appropriate notice would be required for any
withdrawal to take effect
• It is assumed that exercising these rights
would be exercised only after very careful
consideration of the circumstances
Conclusion – 802 - Veto
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Slide 17
IEEE 802 LMSC
September 2006
doc: IEEE 802/xxx
8802-1 should make it clear IEEE retains copyright
of all material in 8802-x standards
Comment
Proposed resolution
• IEEE owns the copyright of 802.x standards
but has allowed ISO/IEC to publish them as
8802-x standards & NBs to publish them as
national standards
• 8802-1 should be modified to make it clear
that IEEE owns the copyright for the
material in any 8802-x standard based on
an 802.x standard
• However, 8802-1 is unclear about copyright
issues because it:
• Assuming 802 becomes the authority for all
changes to 8802-x standards, there is no
need for ISO/IEC to own the copyright for
any 8802-x standards
– Doesn’t address copyright if the 8802-1
endorsement process is used
– Suggests approval using a JTC1 Fast Track
ballot might require a copyright release
• This caused some difficulty during the
WAPI debate because:
– Some claimed IEEE retains copyright of 8802.x
standards, noting recent 8802-x standards have
“Copyright © <year> IEEE” on every page,
concluding that JTC1 couldn’t amend 8802-11
without permission
– Others claimed that ISO/IEC owned the
copyright & so could amend 8802-11
Conclusion – 802 - Copyright
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Slide 18
IEEE 802 LMSC
September 2006
doc: IEEE 802/xxx
8802-1 should clarify the IPR situation for 8802-x
standards derived from 802.x standards
Comment
Proposed resolution
• During the WAPI debate, the issue of IPR
for an 8802-x standard that is not the same
as an 802.x standard was raised
• The simplest solution is for ISO/IEC to not
change any 802.x standards when
approving them as 8802-x standards
• If an 8802-x standard incorporates an
unmodified 802.x standard then
implementations built to conform to the
8802-x standard will, by definition, also
conform to the 802.x standard
• If the ISO/IEC did decide to change an
802.x standard (assuming copyright issues
were resolved) then 8802-1 should
describe the issues related to a standard
for which there are known IPR
encumbrances
• LoAs submitted with respect to the 802.x
can be invoked for this implementation
only because of its conformance to 802.x
• If 8802-x incorporates 802.x only in part, or
modifies it in any way then an 8802-x
implementation will not necessarily conform
to 802.x
• The IEEE would probably not be able to
assist in obtaining LoA’s for any 8802-x
version of an 802.x standard
• LoAs provided to IEEE-SA cannot be
invoked for this implementation
Conclusion – 802 - IPR
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Slide 19
IEEE 802 LMSC
September 2006
doc: IEEE 802/xxx
8802-1 should specify that 8802-x standards are not
limited to LAN technology
Comment
Proposed resolution
• 8802-1 is mostly written under the
assumption that 802 only develops LAN
standards
• 8802-1 should be rewritten to allow 802 to
submit any 802.x standard for ISO/IEC
standardisation, not just those related to
LANs
– The title is “Part 1: Overview of Local Area
Network Standards”
– There are some reference to MANs
– Note: interestingly 802.6 was included as a LAN
& yet it was always a MAN
• Of course, SC6 should have a veto on
whether such a submission should be
accepted as an 8802-x standard
• While this may have been true to some
degree at the time, it is no longer the case
• 802 now develops a range of wired &
wireless layer 1 & 2 standards for PANs,
LANs, MANs, RANs, & WANs
Conclusion – 802 - LANs
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Slide 20
IEEE 802 LMSC
September 2006
doc: IEEE 802/xxx
8802-1 should not contain any technical material
Comment
Proposed resolution
• Much of the technical material in 8802-1 is
either incorrect, incomplete or out of date
• Remove all technical material from 8802-1,
including:
– eg, Figure 1 & §5.2.3 include a reference to
802.6, which is now disbanded
– Parts of §1, §3
– All of §5, §6, §7, §8 & §9
• This will be an on going problem as there is
little incentive for anyone to update such
material
• Some of the technical material relates to
FDDI, which is not an 802 standard & so is
not relevant to an agreement between SC6
& 802
Conclusion – 802 – Technical material
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Slide 21
IEEE 802 LMSC