CURRICULUM MINUTES OCTOBER 22, 2009 Curriculum Members:

OCTOBER 22, 2009
Curriculum Members:
Bellas, Monica
Bettino M.L.
Sharp, Mageya
Malkin, Hal
(sub for HO)
Balmages, Mary
Senf, Joy
Holmes, Judi
Mitchell, Val
Morgan, Vykki
Senf, Jan
Ukita, Traci proxy for Hoppe-Nagao, Angela
I. Approval of
Minutes: Oct 8,
Rich welcomed Archy to our meeting as the new Student rep
M/S/P Leon/Holmes (10 –yes; 0 – no; 2 – abstentions) to approve the minutes of Oct. 8 with the following
On JOUR 107 we need to add in the distance education form that we changes the answer on question 9
to the standard accessibility answer.
Rich: We are going to get started with the CRCC courses. However, before we get started I need to
make sure where we are with them. I want to apologize to the Business Division, the CRCC folks, and
committee members here. We sent out a set of outlines online on Friday, and then yesterday we sent
changes to them. I want to apologize for that; unfortunately with our changes yesterday we still have
problems, and so what we will be putting up on the screen today is brand new. I mean it’s been updated
again. We’re trying to correct all these (procedural) problems. You may find additional problems with the
outlines. I met with the CRCC folks yesterday to see what we should do because of the number of
changes that were being made, and I wanted you to have the opportunity to see them. We talked about
the possibility of tabling this stuff to the next meeting. However, it creates too many problems for the
department if we do that; there is a time issue involved. So we need to try and act on this stuff now. After
today we are going to look again at the pros and cons of what procedures we’ve got in place and see
what we do about this in the future. But for now we want to do what we can to address these courses.
M/S Holmes/Sharp to approve CRCC 119 AEF.
Can you explain what we are doing here today?
Vykki: We have a couple of courses like this one that are included. We have several new courses for our
captioning grant. So the reason we were in a hurry to get things in place is because out captioning grant
is funded right now through August of 2010. We can only run the classes in the spring semester. That is
why we are trying to get the classes and certificate through.
Rich: The certificate is an issue that we will deal with when we get to it. But again one reason why we
can’t postpone this is because after we approve it they have to go off campus to area deans to get
approval at least 2 more times than it needs to go to the board for approval then into our online catalog.
So that it can be offered for the spring. If we wait until our next meeting then we run out of time.
Ruben: This is for spring 2010?
Rich: Spring 2010, yes!
Ruben: Then all these should not have been corrected to fall 2010.
Vykki: The ones that weren’t urgent were made for fall 2010, CRCC 119AEF, CRCC 119BCD, and then
two more CRCC 137A, and CRCC 137B these were made fall 2010 because those aren’t urgent. So we
are just trying to push the urgent ones through.
I just wanted to ask… I know back at the division Joy was really busy trying to make a final outline of
everything kind of the way we used to do it, where the division would take care of all the changes. I don’t
know if that is (the outlines) we are looking at today.
Rich: On the screen today is what was submitted to Pam this morning.
Vykki: Okay, that that would be consistent good! Joy’s on her way.
Stephanie: If these are going to be offered for spring 2010 they need to be published in the class
schedule 30 days prior to the start of enrollment. We cannot collect apportionment on a course that is
not advertised in the class schedule which is different than the catalog. They have to be out there at
least 30 days and we start enrollment on Nov 19th for spring 2010.
Stephanie: We are going to be short on time. We don’t know how this takes. These will have to move
into the second 9-week classes or something because you have to advertise courses to the general
population because we are an open enrollment campus. One of the definitions is making this information
available not just in the catalog but also the class schedule 30 days before the class is offered. So we
start enrollment and they’re not there so we do not make them open to the public. That is one of the
reasons why everything that goes into the class schedule or do we just not collect apportionment for
these students. This is another option that I can’t make the decision on. The paper one has already been
printed and If we don’t get them in the class schedule soon (it will be a problem).
Vykki: Right, this is funded by the grant for the teachers are funded by the grant.
Stephanie: If the institution doesn’t care about apportionment, we are good to go. If there is any kind of
grading or positive attendance or anything that went along with that, then the institution will care. We will
have to exclude these from apportionment.
Rich: That is valuable information. It is really not a curriculum committee issue. I do appreciate you
bring that up so that we understand what is going on. That is an issue the Academic Affairs Office is
going to have to work out with the division. But that is really go to know in light of Ruben’s question.
We have a motion on the floor let start looking at some of the corrections that we have for this point. I am
going to rely very heavily on the division to help us out with this as well. Make sure all the corrections
have been made. Anyone else may jump in at this point.
Carrie: I have a question why this became AEF instead of staying ABC?
Vykki: It was following (a class sequence) of A, E, and F (of similar classes) that we have combined and
taught together and in our division. We were asked not to combine classes anymore. This was our
relative suggestion.
M.L.: I have a general question I need clarity on. These classes have a lab and I guess my question is:
“What happens in the lab as opposed in the lecture part of the class.”
Vykki: We put that in there.
Rich: If you look under course content.
M.L.: I would like an explanation, that is why I handed out this handout (see attached). I want to make
sure we are all okay on the meaning of lab, and what’s on the meaning of lab, and what’s going on in the
lab. So could you explain what happens? The difference between the two.
Vykki: That when they are doing their work with supervision, or assistance connecting the writer, and
working on things; they get the teacher’s assistance.
M.L.: Okay so there is an instructor in the lab?
Vykki: Yes, this is the class hours. All of our classes in court reporting since I have been here have
always been lecture/lab. The majority of the class being lab I don’t exactly why it is that way. So I kind of
built it on the same thing. Yeah, that is part of the class.
M.L.: Okay we can get to that later when we talk about distance education. There is not a double dipping
issue of apportionment or students are enrolled in the lab class they are in there with the instructor.
Vykki: These don’t have a co-requisite lab we do have a Court Reporting lab but these don’t have the
co-requisite lab.
M.L.: There is instruction going on. Or is it just practice?
Vykki: Instruction is going on.
Rich (after extended discussion on a couple of content items): I am going to suggest something here or
we will be here all night. Will the committee under this particular set of circumstances give the
department, Pam and I the authority to go over the minor details, and make sure all the changes go
Ruben: That is setting a mighty precedence.
Rich: I know.
Mageya: Then again Ruben we will be here all night. A lot of these don’t reflect what Joy sent in. So we
are looking and okaying these and they are not the correct ones.
Ruben: That still doesn’t cut it with me. In the past if we needed more time we would meet at another
time, not delegate thing for change substantial or not to one person or one set of people. I don’t know if I
am conferrable voting on something that say go ahead you guys and fix it type thing. If we have to meet
on Fridays we meet on Fridays.
Joy: Is there a way to pull up the ones I set M.L. last night, and this morning?
Rich: What we have online are the ones that were corrected today. Those are the only ones that are
online right now.
Joy: They are not corrected that’s the problem.
Rich: We do have the option to postpone this to next Thursday (because it is the fifth Thursday of the
month and no other Tech Review or Curriculum meeting is schedule). They are short on time that is
better than postponing it two or three weeks (for our next regular meeting).
Monica: I was going to say if we could come back on Thursday and do tech review after?
Rich: We have so little to do with tech review that is not going to be a big issue.
Monica: I am with Ruben on this one. I would like to see the final corrected copies, and go back through
those instead of setting here and paging through them because it’s going to take hours.
Pam: Look how long it took up the first time!
Hal: How many classes are involved in this must have list?
Rich: Many of them. The one we are looking at is not the must have. There are many of them.
Hal: Even the must haves are too many to play with. I would be willing to come back at the earliest
possible time. As Stephanie pointed we are already late and so we have to work every quickly on this.
Traci: If there are only 7 must haves is it possible to go through those today. M.L. could pull up his
documents he was sent.
Rich: I am very uncomfortable with (with delaying action) because the department worked very hard and
it was our new procedures have gotten in the way somehow.
Ruben: Our new procedures got in the way?
Rich: Yes, changes that were made at tech review did not all make it to the stuff we sent out the other
Hal: That is a separate discussion let’s work with what we have. We have a situation where we have to
get these addressed.
Ruben: The discussion was clearly for me and I am not willing to put that aside. I need to be an informed
voter for my division.
Rich: I appreciate that.
Mageya: Could we make a motion as Traci said to cover at least the 7 courses?
Rich: Let’s lay out the options here. We can take the courses that have to be done. We can put them up
here (on the screen), but again it’s not going to relieve Ruben’s concerns if he has not seen these before
or is seeing it for the first time.
Ruben: My concern isn’t even those concerns. It is that policy seems to be changed in terms of on how
we do business, which could have a huge ramification in how people may submit things in the future to
use in order to get them through us.
Rich: It might be a cleaner process to meet in a week and get this stuff cleaned up, and make sure we
got everything.
Ruben: From a faculty’s point of view, as us being a sub-committee of the Faculty Senate, I am not sure
they would like us to operate in this way. I know my senators wouldn’t.
Rich: Let me ask the department… I know you’re under a time pressure, but if we took another week to
get the corrected one could you live with it?
Vykki: I suppose so, yeah we just found out about the 30-day thing.
Rich: That is a discussion you’re going to have to have with the Academic Affairs office.
Vykki: We turned in this great idea of a grant the first part of it was writing curriculum and getting it
through and the second part was operating the classes it just kind of the timing.
Rich: If we postpone it one week it still gives you the opportunity to meet with the area deans, which was
a concern when we talked yesterday? What is the desired of the committee?
Monica: I would be more conformable waiting a week.
Hal: If they can make it work with the week I will go with it. But I don’t want to sacrifice their grant or
there program.
Vykki: We need to clarify what outlines we will be looking at, whether they are going to come from the
Pam: I will take everything I have on TalonNet off and up load all of Joy’s items.
Vykki: That would be less confusing.
M/S/C Hal/Ruben to table these courses until Oct. 29.
II. Business
a. CRCC 119 AEF –
CAT Dictionary Build
b. CRCC 119BCD –
c. CRCC 119G –
Transcription for
d. CRCC 130 –
Shorthand Realtime
Practicum IV
e. CRCC 137A –
Beginning CAT
f. CRCC 137B –
Intermediate CAT
g. CRCC 140C –
Shorthand and
Theory for Scopists
h. CRCC 180 –
Shorthand and
Speed Building
i. CRCC 181 –
Shorthand Speed
j. CRCC 190A –
Captioning Video
k. CRCC 190B –
Captioning Video
Laws and
m. CRCC 194A –
Realtime Captioning
Level I
n. CRCC 194B –
Realtime Captioning
Level 2
o. CRCC 194C –
Realtime Captioning
Level 3
p. CRCC 194D –
Realtime Captioning
Level 4
l. CRCC 190C –
Captioning Video for
the Web and Video
q. CRCC 195 –
Realtime Captioning
Level 5
r. Beginning
t. Certified Realtime
u. Scopist for Court
v. Realtime Rapid
Text Entry
w. Captioning PostProduction
Verification of
x. Proofreader-Court
Reporting Method
y. Court Reporting
Shorthand Certificate
z. CSR Exam
Qualifying CandidateCertificate of
III. Additional Action Items
IV. Discussion
Rich: Let’s talk about this procedure, what we have done by going to the electronic format for course
outlines. One of the changes that we made from tech review is that Pam makes the changes in house
rather than sending them back to the divisions. That is what is what we put online. We had some issues
this time because of the number of changes needed to be made. It took a little bit longer to get done in
the first place, and then when we got it online, we discovered some missing pieces. We attempted to
clean it up and apparently we are still missing some stuff.
We need to think about what we are doing. We have taken an lot of work from the various division
secretaries and given it to Pam. Part of that was to pick up some speed. Another was to relieve some of
the work of the division secretaries.
Monica: How much work is that putting on Pam?
Rich: It is a considerable amount.
Mageya: All revisions are being dumped on one person?
Hal: We were talking about that earlier we have taken nine divisions that have curriculum and we have
put it on the shoulders of one person. I like the idea (of the electronic forms). I believe in technology, but
sometimes it just doesn’t work.
One of the problems I saw on this was that every division has its own vocabulary jargon is uses. Pam
doesn’t know the jargon. If I read anything on programming I haven’t got a clue what most the stuff
written in those things because I know pharmacy. We are making Pam to have to be an expert in almost
all these fields just to get the language in those paragraphs right. “Hooking up” (in one of the CRCC
courses) was an example. To me that means we are going to have a class on prostitution. I don’t want to
put it back to the secretaries, but I honestly think because they know the terminology. I don’t know, I
don’t have the answer. Let the secretaries upload the corrections onto TalonNet. I don’t want to make it
harder for you Pam. I don’t know, M.L. you’re the expert in this field.
M.L.: One of the problems with this particular set of courses was that the tech review found so many
errors, and so much rewriting was done, which is a good thing, and you guys really did your job! But it
was too much to do in real time. You had three people taking notes about what the changes were and so
many courses with so many changes that it was overwhelming of what we wanted to do here. So
perhaps there might be a two-step process in the tech review piece. Maybe changes have to go back to
tech review a second time before it goes to the Curriculum Committee if you guys are going to do your
job as well as you did this time. That’s another piece but then that slows everything down. It’s a tough
one to get a handle on.
Joy: Yes, there were a lot of changes, and like Hal said, we as secretaries do know our stuff. If we still
keep that process of the secretaries correcting in tech review and then we send them to Pam to put on
the system, I don’t see why that can’t work.
Rich: Then the changes that get made from the (Curriculum Committee) floor, we would keep in house.
Pam would make those changes.
Hal: One of my concerns is we are about as a school and the stuff I have been reading we are going to
start having a lot more classes come through us for distance education. You know this was a big hit
here. We are going to have a lot of distance education stuff coming down even in Math, there is consent
change going on. I think some of this stuff is going to hit us hard, and I was just reading an article in
Newsweek where they are talking about all universities going to a three-year program and getting rid of
the fourth year. That is going to be one of the big changes down the line. We might eventually be doing
bachelors degree from this college.
Ruben: It happened at Cal States.
Hal: I am going to have a whole bunch of things coming through. I am doing a new program certificate
we are putting in. If something hits like this even once a semester it’s a disaster. I think that what Joy
was saying might be a possibility the secretaries do all the tech review corrections to get them off Pam’s
shoulders. I don’t want her to die on us, and you can push a person to the stress level to where she
becomes nonfunctional as well as dysfunctional.
Pam: It is almost similar to Joy’s suggestion is that at the tech review meeting that the secretaries make
the changes putting them back at the division level. When the corrections are made they can put then in
the tech review correction folder and then notify me that the corrections have been submitted. I then put
then in the curriculum folder.
Rich: The change we are discussing is who makes the corrections that come up at tech review meeting,
and the suggestion is that we put it back to the secretaries… how do other feel about that?
Monica: I agree with that.
Ruben: What happened to the author in all of this?
Rich: The author is there and is involved in the discussion on the changes to be made. Authors in most
divisions don’t make those changes, the secretaries do.
Hal: I think this will be good, too, because one of our goals was to get these people to tech review. We
want them there. We wanted the author and division secretaries there and hoped the dean would be
there, also. By saying “you guys are to do the changes,” that gets it back to the old cycle. That means
they have to be there for the changes.
Rich: That has not been an issue. The secretaries have always shown up.
Monica: It’s the authors that don’t.
Rich: We are asking the authors to show up even if it is a deleted course.
Pam: I love the program. I have had no issue with TalonNet. The division will up load there things into
tech review for that meeting. I will also have a tech review correction folder. Then they will have to notify
me when corrections are submitted they will have the normal cut off like we do now, and if the
corrections aren’t in the folder they don’t move on to curriculum.
Hal: Then they can’t blame you!
Pam: That’s right. Then I can’t be blamed like I was for all this.
Rich: I sense a consensus here.
M.L.: I want to make sure Joy – bless her heart for all the work she did— but I don’t want her speaking
for all the division secretaries.
Joy: I am speaking for myself. It makes it easier for me to make all the corrections.
M.L.: Yeah, but that may not be the same for the other secretaries.
Monica: But it was handled that way in the past.
M.L.: As long as they are fortified in a friendly positive way that is our wish.
Rich: We made an experiment and we found a few flaws and we are dealing with it.
Jan: M.L. for that piece can we meet with Rich, Pam, you, and the division secretaries and work out the
finer details of what will happen.
M.L.: I just want to give them their piece of this.
Rich We were not prepared to bring materials to you today. We have made some changes on some
forms that this committee made some suggestions on. That is the first part of the curriculum handbook
stuff. We will be meeting next week to take care of this issue.
Rich: I have not heard back from Program Review as of yet, but I will follow through.
Rich: Ken has suggested that it is time for us to start putting something in writing on what we are talking
about. We’ll try to do that for our Nov. 12 meeting.
M.L.: I want to make sure that we remember what Stephanie brought to the table about the 30-day issue,
that we come up with those dates we need and talk to Ken in counseling about it. We have to make sure
we are pretty solid on our dates, so we don’t mess up there with any regards. We need to come up with
some dates pretty quickly here, by the next time we meet I believe.
Rich: I think, practically speaking, I was thinking of that November date was the cutoff date for spring
semester, but that might not work any more, given what Stephanie shared with us today. This might
have been that meeting… no, it would have been two weeks ago.
Stephanie: There are two things there, Rich.
One, we are going to have to create an addendum and it has to be titled “Addendum.” You cannot just
change the PDF of the existing catalog. You have to add it to the PDF version of our catalog and list it
specifically as an addendum, and it has to be titled that at the bottom of the last page of the catalog. So,
there’s the first thing, if it’s a new course and no course description existed in the existing catalog (you
have a problem).
The second thing, you will need to get the publication of the 30-day notice in case we are audited on new
classes that are (supposed to be) open to the entire student population. That is one of the definitions of
open enrollment. If you create a course that is specific, for example, if Hal creates a pharmacy tech
class that Is just unique to just the pharm tech students, then it’s a second 9-week class and he’s just
going to assume it’s okay. Again, the open enrollment piece it’s not okay. If he’s looking at a cohort that’s
in the first nine weeks that is going to move into the new second nine weeks, it has to be open to the
entire student population because what if you get a pharm tech student from another program that
So, the whole open enrollment in advertising is what creates this issue of these 30 days that it has to be
published. And I DO get audited on it. The auditors do come in and say we can’t find this course in your
catalog, but yet you offered it in summer. Okay, yes, and here is where we advertised it we put it up
online and we put up notice posters all over campus. So, it’s just not online. You have to advertise this
new course because there is no where for them to find it if they can’t find it in the catalog. In the eight
years I have been here we have never created an addendum to the catalog.
Rich: Okay we have already approved a couple of courses this semester for a start of next semester,
and they probably should be in the addendum. I know the one in my area.
Stephanie: It’s not in the course catalog is it?
Rich: No. We have a problem.
Stephanie: Is it part of a program where students are going to be graduating using this in either a major,
or part of the electives?
Rich: The degree and certificate have not been updated yet.
Stephanie: Here is where we are going to run into an issue, and Ken and Traci you can tell me if I am
wrong her: If a student comes in and it’s not in the current course catalog and they want to use it to
graduate with a certificate program and don’t find it there my evaluators are going to reject them using
that class for spring if they want to graduate in spring with a certificate.
Traci: For clarification, the 30 days for the class publicity: 30 days before the term or open enrollment?
Stephanie: They like it 30 days before the start of term. Let’s just use spring. We published our catalog
last week. It’s not out for public consumption, but we have published it. We like to have it 30 days prior to
start of term because start of term still gives us a gap prior to enrollment. So the enrollment will be the
19th, but we have already published the class schedule. So between the 19 th of October and the 19th of
November we can be publishing for 30 days on posters, and things like that. I can tweak it a little bit in
terms of the 30 days, but we have to be able to prove that we published it for 30 days consecutively, not
only online, but that there was other advertising for it. I can give you the definitively drop dead date to
make the 30 days compliant with the auditors.
I have been hit before a couple years ago with stuff that was in the catalog but wasn’t in the schedule.
Yet, we offered it and visa versa. We did get some hits for that. I don’t want that to happen again.
Rich: Could the Academic Affairs Office publish addendum to the current catalog listing for courses that
we have already approved for spring at this point? I am not asking: can we please do that!
Stephanie: There are two pieces there M.L., to decide if you are going to do it sticking it on a PDF
addendum version or if you are going to do a paper copy. There are some intuitions that put out two
addendums. They will put one out shortly after fall and before spring and one between spring and
M.L.: Yes, I prefer to do both things that would be handed out in counseling for example, A & R, and also
put it online.
Monica: So then for now we do need to for next year have that drop dead date.
Rich: It sounds to me that we have the expectations of these courses that may be offered without
collecting apportionment. That is up to Academic Affairs, but we have really hit that deadline this
semester. So, we are looking at changes for next school year at this point.
(A discussion continued on the need to nail down dates of when courses must be approved if they are
going to be offered correctly in the spring semester. No resolution was made at this meeting.)
M.L.: I passed this one handout and I just want everybody to become experts on what it really means
computerized instruction this term comes up everywhere and it’s Title 5 wording. It may sound out dated
when discussing technology-mediated instruction, but it is the language they use. So that when we do
have distance education courses coming along, or courses that incorporate the computer into their
course content, (we need to make sure) that some of these items are not over looked, and in B,
especially, where the instructor has to be actively involved in the instruction of an online course, that they
check on keeping students on task, provide a constructive feedback, and answer questions. Those are
critical to what should be going on and they happen in real time in a classroom. If we are to be copying
what goes on in a classroom I would like these kinds of questions asked. Those instructors that come
forward that say they want to offer there course online we just want to make sure that they remember
this is what Title 5 says this has to be going on, and how are you doing it? I just thought it would be good
to have in the curriculum handbook.
Hal: Jus some clarification M.L.: If you have a lab set up and a teacher sitting at the front and the
students have headsets on they are working on the computer and they leave and never really talk to the
instructor then it would not meet this criteria correct?
M.L.: Well, no, because as long as they are being keep on task and there is instructor feedback or
opportunity for feedback it is okay. We can never expect the student to be held to that. We want to hold
our instructor to that.
Hal: I am trying to see where would this fail?
M.L.: I can tell you there are some pretty poor online courses on this campus.
VI. Adjournment
M/S/C/ to adjourn this meeting to next Thursday, October 29, 2009.
Meeting was adjourned at 3:30 p.m.