Minutes of the Spring 2002 Meeting
Major Excursions Committee
The meeting was convened by T.Walley Williams at 8:15 AM at Camp Burgess in
Sandwich, MA. as part of the Club Spring Meeting. The minutes of the first Winter meeting and
the second Winter meeting were approved.
The most important topic for the meeting was the consideration of Alex Kossoff=s
proposal for the operation of Major Excursions. A subcommittee of the Committee had drafted an
alternative operation scheme that answered their objections to the proposal. The detailed
discussion of these documents was delayed to after consideration of some less controversial items.
Once again the question of how to use subcommittees effectively was raised. Does the
Committee need additional members to carry out its mission? The Handbook work is one place
where a subcommittee might proceed more expeditiously.
The question of what reimbursement there should be for courses taken to fulfill the First
Aid and CPR requirements for leaders was raised but also postponed when no consensus among
those present was apparent.
The critique of the proposal and discussion of the Committee=s response began with a
scan of the response. It was agreed that an introduction should be added. A summary of Alex and
Ian Wade=s examination of the current operation was reiterated. It was noted that they had more
emphasis on risk management than the Committee. It was not clear whether the proposal intended
a clerical or a management person. The division of responsibilities between members of the
Committee and the new staff person was not acceptable to the Committee. It was agreed that risk
management is not as important to the Committee; their primary concern is fulfilling the
expectations of the participants and having adequate guides. They believe that these are the
reasons that people choose Major Excursion.
More specific items in the proposal were brought out. Asking the trips to use just one
bank will be quite difficult. Leaders are not centralized in the same banking jurisdiction.
Members felt that they had had poor experiences with the Clubhouse in accounting matters. The
Committee agreed that financial reporting needed to be improved but individual trip accounting
should remain in the hands of the leaders. Using one travel agent for all excursions was felt to be
of the bottom priority for leaders.
Jan Taylor felt that a staff person helping Major Excursions is necessary. Katherine Byers
providing staff input stated that any acceptable plan must include a staff person. There are tasks
that the Committee is not currently performing that the staff feels are necessary.
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As an aside it was noted that Rip Ley has resigned as a leader. He felt that the new trip
application form was just too much.
The staff is assuming that the coordinator will be paid by increasing the overhead paid by
the Committee=s trips. This was felt to be shifting the AMC program to fit the Sierra Club
model. Many present felt that Club members avoided Sierra Club trips because of this difference
in style.
It was reported that for Mountain Leadership School the Committee plans the program and
Juliana of staff handles the logistics.
To sum up the situation, there are two documents: a proposal for a staff run program and a
proposal for a Committee dominated program. The Committee finds the first proposal
unacceptable and Katherine, representing the staff, finds the second unacceptable. Is there an
intermediate position that is acceptable to both groups? Members of the Committee expressed a
feeling of frustration that wondered whether the Committee should be dissolved. When it was
asked whether a full time staff person is necessary, the answer was affirmative. The view was
expressed that the staff and the Executive Board are not aware of volunteer opinion.
Katherine was asked what could be expected to happen. She reported that the job
description for the coordinator had not been written. The intention is to have the program pay for
itself thus support the coordinator and continue to contribute to the general fund. The intention is
to institute the 10% overhead on both land costs and air fare as soon as possible.
It was noted that the number of trips has dropped dramatically, perhaps by 50%. The
cause is leaders dropping out and being disqualified. This fact means that for 2003 increasing the
overhead would not provide sufficient funds to support a coordinator.
A motion to pay in 2003 the overhead as 10% of land costs and for 2002 trips with a
surplus to pay this overhead also was withdrawn. It was noted that AMC Outdoors costs 13
thousand dollars; why should the MEC pay this? It was requested that the Committee have input
in the job description of the coordinator.
After a break for refreshment the Committee considered trip proposals. Erika Bloom
requested a reimbursement of $100 for funds lost due to the cancellation of her hiking trip in the
American Glacier National Park. The difficulty had been administrative problems involving the
Club and the Park Service. This was approved by the Committee.
Because of the previous discussion of a change in the overhead fee, suggestions on how to
deal with 2003 trips were considered. However no conclusion was achieved and the topic was left
for the delegation to the Executive Board to further negotiate.
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Before the meeting Committee members had been asked to read the trip proposals from
the web site. Certain trips were assigned to certain members. Thus as each trip was discussed
those who had studied the proposal were asked for their recommendation.
Four trips to the Virgin Islands for the winter of 2002-03 were considered. Melissa Wenig
with Joel Gordon as coleader proposed a trip to Maho Bay for December 19 to 26 in 2002. It is
for 24 to 32 participants with a cost of $1375. Kathy Didier is the backup for this trip. They also
proposed a Maho Bay trip for February 17 to 24. It is for 24 to 40 participants with a cost of
$1375. The Schultzes are the backup for this trip; their leader form is still to be submitted.
Pam Madigan proposed a trip to Cinnamon Bay for March 21 to 30. It is for 20 to 30
participants with a cost of $1490. She is seeking a coleader.
Don and Lois Ray proposed a trip to Cinnamon Bay for February 4 to18. It is for 24 to34
participants with a cost of $1460.
These trips were approved as follows: first Wenig - #0242, Madigan if a coleader is found
- #0309, Ray - #0310, second Wenig - #0308.
Stacia Zukroff proposed a trip to New Zealand for December 27 to January 13. It is for 10
to 13 participants with a cost of $2900. The Committee felt her refund proposal needs to be
clarified. The trip only involves the southern island and Committee members felt the north island
should be offered in an extension, at least. Because Stacia=s Banff hiking trip had not yet
occurred Committee members questioned approving such an ambitious trip for her. It was noted
that guides in New Zealand have no liability for groups they lead. Kathy Didier reported that she
had recently used the outfitter planned for this trip. The trip was approved as #0243.
Francine Sparks proposed a backpacking trip to Greenland. It is for 5 to 12 participants.
A British outfitter who more often deals with mountaineering groups is to be used. The trip will
stay in two camp sites and take day trips from the sites. They will helicopter from the first to the
second site. They will also visit a remote village that has a guest house. There will be two nights
in Iceland and two in Constable Point, Greenland. She is planning to have a pretrip meeting and
to carefully screen applicants. The cost does not include airfare. The Committee was concerned
about the difficulty and whether the outfitter would provide instruction to the participants. The
trip would be camping on snow and have the option of traveling on glacier. Further consideration
of the trip was tabled until the June meeting.
The meeting was suspended for lunch. When it reconvened the consideration of trips
continued.
Joanna Hopkins with Mike Tannert as coleader proposed a downhill and cross-country ski
trip to St. Moritz and Pontresina for February 28 to March 9. It is for 14 to 22 participants with a
cost of $1725. This a repeat of two previous trips. It was approved as #0311.
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The Zimmermans proposed a cross-country ski trip in Yellowstone National Park for
February 21 to March 2. It is for 10 to 17 participants with a cost of $2200. This a repeat trip.
The Goekes will be the backup. The Committee discussed the question of where people fly from
when they go on a trip. It was stated that a discount can no longer be obtained for a group thus a
trip can meet at trailhead or an airport in between without price penalty. It was approved as
#0312.
Rob Funk with Pam Lewis and Ledge Clayton as coleaders proposed a day hiking trip to
the Anza Borego Desert for March 22 to 30. It is for 12 to 17 participants with a cost of $1375.
This trip has been successful many times. It was approved as #0313.
Carl Rosenthal with Anne Gwynne as coleader proposed a repeat trip to the Big Bend and
Guadalupe Mountains National Parks. It is for 10 to16 people with a cost of $1350. This is a
repeat trip but the leader has stated that he is going to modify it to some extent. It was approved
as #0314. This is another trip that has not encountered difficulty with Park Service rules. It was
suggested that day trips into parks seldom have problems. Backpacking trips are more apt to have
difficulty. These Park limitations should be discussed at a future date and some comments added
to the Handbook.
The DiMeos proposed a day hiking trip in Iceland for May 31 to June 14. It is for 10 to 20
participants with a cost of $3795. An outfitter will be used and some hut to hut travel is included.
It was noted that the trip cost does not include airfare yet the trip seems expensive. Others have
run similar trips without an outfitter. It was approved as #0315
Merri Fox with Carl Lohmann as coleader proposed a hiking and snorkeling trip to
Hawaii for June 21 to July 5. It is for 12 to 16 participants with a cost of $2350. This is similar to
a trip run by Merri in 1998. It was approved as #0316.
John Minichiello with Jim Shelhamer as coleader proposed a rafting and hiking trip in the
Grand Canyon for May 31 to June 8. This is identical to Kathy Didier=s trip #0305; he has her
approval for the trip. It is for 12 to 20 participants with a cost of $2740. Vans with drivers will be
used from Las Vegas to trailhead (the South Rim of the canyon) and back. It was approved as
#0317.
Dave Mihalek with Carl Rosenthal as coleader proposed a hiking trip in the Sierras for
July 19 to August 3. It is for 10 to 16 people with a cost of $2200. It is not a technical trip but
planned for experienced hikers and includes Mt. Whitney. The leader stated that he is quite
experienced at such hiking. Dave led a similar trip in 2000. This was approved as #0318.
Kathy Didier with Tracey Sweeney as coleader proposed a day hiking trip to Zion, Bryce
and Capitol Reef National Parks for August 28 to September 7. It is for 14 to16 participants with
a cost of $2200. In Zion and Bryce Parks the AMC leaders cannot be officially leaders but will
walk with the participants. It was approved as #0319.
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An inquiry as to the status of the Desmond proposal that had been considered at the winter
meeting met with the answer that the trip had been withdrawn.
Other issues that received comment during the consideration of trips were: Katherine said
that improvements based on feedback would be made to the trip application form, further
discussion of the overhead change with the outcome that discussion with staff with more authority
is necessary, the Club insurance covers vehicles rented for excursions thus leaders do not need to
take property damage (it was noted that paying for property damage makes the return of damaged
vehicles much simpler) and Committee members need smaller files for ease of transfer.
Jan said that there are two people from Delaware Valley that wish to colead a trip. She
asked if the Committee approved of appointing a mentor for them and having them lead a trip.
Paul Davis stated he is planning a trip to the Lake district in England for August of 2003.
T.Walley reported that two trips had been canceled since the first winter meeting: Rip
Ley=s Northwest hiking, #0218, and John Minichiello=s Hawaiian trip, #0229. He had received
no requests for additions to the prospective trip list and none were voiced at the meeting. The
meeting took another break to change venue.
When the meeting reconvened the first topic was the reimbursement for First Aid and CPR
training. Kathy Didier proposed that leaders with approved trips be fully reimbursed for this
training. After discussion of the variation of this cost and whether lodging should be included the
following motion was made, seconded and approved with one vote in opposition:
A leader with an approved trip/s shall be reimbursed a sum not greater than $150 every
two years for wilderness first aid and CPR training. This may be SOLO or WMA.
It was noted that for backpacking and technical trips advanced wilderness first aid is currently
encouraged. A discussion of the equivalents for wilderness first aid, i.e. which medical personnel
should be exempted from taking the training did not result in a definitive conclusion. It was stated
that outfitters with such training do replace leader requirements.
It was moved, seconded and approved that advanced wilderness first aid training be
required for backpacking and technical trips.
The discussion returned to how the Committee is to be operated in the future. A comment
from the discussion, AWhere the staff want trips to be up to Aindustry standards=, for the
Committee the aim is AAMC tradition= which is a higher quality than Aindustry standards=.
Joel Gordon had summarized he differences between Alex=s proposal and the MEC=s
position.
The proposal contains the following specific items:
$
Trip Planning, Approval and Evaluation C documents give similar positions
$
Review Trip Proposals C positions of Alex and MEC are different
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$
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does the coordinator have veto power? The Spring 2002 trip proposal acceptance
procedure worked well.
Ensure educational component to trips C similar positions
Approve leader changes C Alex and MEC differ
Trip evaluation process C Alex and MEC differ
New leaders C similar positions
Training C agreement
Mentoring C similar positions
Maintain leader records Cagreement
Respond to evaluation negatives C Alex and MEC differ
Leader removal C Alex and MEC differ
Medical forms and first aid requirements C similar positions
Trip standards C similar positions
Field crises C similar positions
Risk standards C similar positions
AMC Outdoors C Alex and MEC differ
Newsletter C Alex and MEC differ
New leaders C Alex and MEC differ
Inquiries C Alex and MEC differ
Handbook C Alex and MEC differ
Leaders list C agreement
Trip emergency information C agreement
Intranet C Alex and MEC differ
Cancellation policies ---- Alex and MEC differ
Trip equipment C agreement
Travel insurance C agreement
Single travel agency C Alex and MEC differ
Private trips C agreement
Storage of files C agreement
One bank C Alex and MEC differ
Financial reports C Alex and MEC differ
Overhead amount and determination C Alex and MEC differ
Centralized accounting C Alex and MEC differ
Account for income and expenditure C same
Leader packets C same
Organize trip reports C added by chair, to be done by volunteers at Clubhouse
A review of these items showed that the Committee felt that the following were the key items:
$
Approval of trip proposals
$
Approval of changes in leaders
$
The trip overhead
$
Centralized accounting
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The Committee asked again to be included in the writing of the job description for the
Coordinator.
It was moved, seconded and approved that the Committee wishes to have a representative
at the June Executive Board meeting.
A short discussion of the evaluations of trips took place. These come to the Clubhouse in
two forms: letters to the staff and the form that MEC gives out to participants. Kathy=s
impression is that the Committee=s response to complaints has been poor.
The question of what the Committee should prepare as a result of this meeting was not
answered.
The meeting was adjourned at 4:30 PM because the room being used was scheduled to be
the location of the social hour.
Respectfully submitted,
Elizabeth Goeke
Secretary
Those present: T.Walley Williams
Betsy Goeke
Peter Van de Water
Melissa Wenig
Trish Niece
Jan Taylor
Bob Bentley
Kathy Didier
Lynne Zimmerman
Bob Funk
Mary Jane Sawyer
Katherine Byers (staff)
Peter Spreywegen (from the Executive Board)
Guests:
Joel Gordon
Pam Lewis
Jack Schemp
Fred Sawyer
Paul Davis
MEC Spring 2002
John Luker
Linda Pease
Andrea Deaton
John Minichiello
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Upcoming Trips
#
0235
0236
0210
0229
0237
0239
0207
0215
0238
0230
0204
0216
0240
0217
0227
0201
0213
0242
0243
Leader
Didier
Didier
Cooper
Minichello
Bloom
Schemmp
Kuzneski
Mihalek
Zukroff
Ley
Erbe
Poyer
Demond
Kuzneski
Ley
DiMeo
Fox
Wenig
Bloom
Destination
Ireland hiking
Scotland hiking
Czech hiking
Hawaii hiking
Glacier (U.S.) hiking
Banff day hikes
Colorado peaks
Swiss Alps hiking
Banff hiking
Utah hiking
Dakotas/MT hiking
Yosemite backpack
Italian bicycling
Grand Canyon backpack
Yosemite, Tahoe hiking
Italy hiking
Belize ecotour
Maho Bay
New Zealand
0310
0308
0312
0311
0304
0307
0309
0313
0314
0305
0315
0317
0301
0316
0306
0303
0318
0319
0302
Ray
Wenig
Zimmerman
Hopkins
Didier
Erbe
Madigan
Funk
Rosenthal
Didier
DiMeo
Minichiello
Erbe
Fox
Minichiello
Didier
Mihalek
Didier
Erbe
Cinnamon Bay
Feb 4-18
Maho Bay
Feb 17-24
Yellowstone xc skiing
Feb 21-Mar 2
Switzerland skiing
Feb 28-Mar 9
Mexico study and hike
Mar 15-30
Norwegian xc ski
Mar 15-24
Cinnamon Bay
Mar 21-30
Anza Borego hiking
Mar 22-30
Texas NPS hiking
Apr 12-20
Grand Canyon boat trip
May 24-June 1
Iceland hiking
May 31-June 14
Grand Canyon boat trip
May 31-June 8
Banff hiking and sightseeing
June 15-29
Hawaii hiking and snorkeling
June 21-July 5
Alps hiking and sightseeing
June 27- July 10
Guatemala ecotour
July 19-Aug 5
Mt. Whitney hiking
July 19-Aug 3
NPS Canyons hiking
Aug 28-Sept 7
New Mexico hiking and sightseeing Sept 15-29
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Dates
June 28-July 6
July 5-15
July 12-21 canceled
July 13-26
July 13-21
July 13-21
July 20-28 canceled
July 27-Aug 9
Aug 10-18
Sep 3-17
Sep 7-21
Sep 7-14
Sep 13-21
Sep 21-29 canceled
Oct 1-13
Oct 18-Nov 2
Nov 1-11
Dec 19-26
Dec 27-Jan 13
Prospective Trips
#
0352
0353
0354
0355
0356
0358
(Numbers for the Chair=s tracking system - not permanently assigned)
Leader
Destination
Month
Fox
Sedona, Arizona
October
Didier
Russia
August
Minichiello
Dolomites (Italy) hiking
June-July
Hopkins
Germany hiking
August-September
Taylor
Thailand ecotour
January-February
Zimmerman
Baffin Islands hiking
late spring
The End
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