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Project #1: Story Corp – ‘Living Like an Egyptian’
Interview Transcript
Interviewer:
Naeema Hallak
Narrator:
Kareem Mostafa Abu Ghamra
Date:
3/6/2011
Place:
University classroom
C130 HUSS Building
The American University in Cairo
Road 90, Cairo, Egypt
University:
The American University in Cairo
Professor:
Dr. Kim Fox
Date Completed:
9 March 2011
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6 March 2011
Persons present:
Naeema Hallak
Kareem Mostafa Abu Ghamra
Naeema:
Do you mind if I record this?
Kareem:
No, go ahead.
Naeema:
Okay so what’s your name?
Kareem:
Kareem Mostafa Abu Ghamra
Naeema:
Where do you live?
Kareem:
I live in Heliopolis.
Naeema:
Where in Heliopolis?
Kareem:
Near Salah Salem.
Naeema:
How old are you?
Kareem:
I’m 18.
Naeema:
Okay so you’re a friend of mine, you go to AUC. All the protest talks
before like January 25th like when there was talk on Facebook and Twitter
like “Oh we’re gonna meet in Tahrir”. Did you think it was actually gonna
happen?
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Kareem:
Well I had been involved in like a few protests prior to that, like the whole
Khaled Said campaign and when we went to the Kasr El Nile Bridge and
stuff. So I knew that the protest was going to happen cause it was the same
around two thousand people, but I had no idea it would have happened
with that size. I was in Tahrir on the 25th and it was a huge surprise for me
to find like almost all of Tahrir Square filled with people all chanting for
the regime to come down which is very bold at that time.
Naeema:
How did you feel during the protests when it was actually, like every day
there would be more people in Tahrir, everyday it would be more, like you
could tell the people really wanted this. How did you feel?
Kareem:
I was very proud. I was very proud that Egyptians finally found out that
they have a voice and it’s like, something people would listen to, the
authority would listen to, that us combined can actually make a difference.
So, and everyday more and more people came and that just, that pride
level, that nationalistic pride level just grew.
Naeema:
So why do you think the protests happened? What started it? What caused
people to create an event on Facebook, to start talking on Twitter saying
“You know what? This is it, on the 25th of January we’re all going to meet
up”
Kareem:
The situation in Egypt was getting too far. Like for example the whole
parliament elections thing. We all, like we’ve always known elections
were rigged but for it to be done to your face so blatantly, and like it was
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just rude above anything. And it like affected a lot of people, including the
Muslim Brotherhood. And then came the whole Khaled Said situation, it
was before it, but then the repercussions of it were after and also it was
kind of, he was a figure – he wasn’t the only person that had that happen
to him – but he was a figure cause he’s the one person that we clearly
found out that everything that happened and how they kept trying to
covering it up more and more and they’d get caught every step of the way.
So after the whole Tunis situation they wanted to take that momentum
like, the whole world was watching Tunis, such a small country, have such
a big effect on its own government. So they took that opportunity to take
say, “Hey this is our chance, let’s go down in the street and say what we
have to say.”
Naeema:
So you believe that Tunis was inspiration for Egypt?
Kareem:
It was partial inspiration. It was inspiration for the 25th of Jan. bas [but] it
wasn’t inspiration for the whole revolution
Naeema:
Yeah. The 28th of January when the internet, mobile services got cut off.
What did you think of that?
Kareem:
Well um, I was incredibly shocked to find out that the internet had got cut
off cause that’s just, like we’re not, Egypt was never that backwards of a
country and that’s just such a horrible thing to do and such against human
rights and freedom of speech, and they took it to a new level. I had a
friend who works in Vodafone and he gave me a heads up, “By the way
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the mobile phones will be cut off at like 5 a.m.”, so I freaked out and I
planned my next day accordingly. Like I called my friends and I said “We
will meet in front of Hardees”, for example, “at 12 o’clock in the
morning.”
Naeema:
How involved were you in the protests?
Kareem:
I was pretty involved, like as much as I could be with my restraints, with
family and stuff. But I was there for like fourteen, fifteen out of the
eighteen days.
Naeema:
How many people are in your family?
Kareem:
Well it’s just us four – like my mom and my dad and my sister and me, but
we live in the building with the rest of my family, so it’s a combined
thing.
Naeema:
How was it like taking care of the street and making sure people wouldn’t
come in and start shooting? Because personally in my street like it would
be like 3 in the morning and you hear gunshots and girls yelling and
screaming and everyone’s like going crazy and there’s chaos and it’s just,
like you don’t know what to do. It’s kind of scary.
Kareem:
Well in my opinion that was the tactic that the government was trying to
take. Trying to tell you el howa [like] “The only person that can save you
is the government, so abide by it” but it kind of happened against them,
where since everyone had to go down to the street and had to patrol their
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own house and had to like protect their family and their belongings with
their own bare hands. It gave them a sense of pride.
Naeema:
I think you guys had fun towards like the third, fourth day standing in the
street.
Kareem:
Yeah it became like, it became like chill, you know? Like we would just
sit and people would bring tea and food and we’d sit and talk and people
would play card games and board games, it was just like a gathering.
Naeema:
Earlier you said that personally you believe that the government, it was the
government’s way of telling the people that “There is no one that can save
you except for us” basically.
Kareem:
Yeah.
Naeema:
So you think that the government sent out these people on purpose?
Kareem:
Fully.
Naeema:
Where do you think they got them from?
Kareem:
Well it’s like pretty much like the last resort almost all regimes take. Like
look at Saddam Hussein, the same thing happened to him. One of his last
tactics was to open up the prisons and let the prisoners loose and withdraw
the police at the same time. Don’t you think that was a little bit
suspicious? So I think it was their tactic to frighten people a little bit and
make, force them to stay in their houses or around their houses so that
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protests would stop, but then on the contrary that didn’t happen, more and
more people would show up.
Naeema:
The first time Hosni Mubarak gave his speech, the very emotional one,
where he said he would not resign, and he wouldn’t step down and he
would die in Egypt. What was your initial reaction?
Kareem:
Well you have to know the Egyptians are very emotional people, like it’s
easy to toy with their emotions. But he, but Mubarak did a very stupid
thing where he waited too long. If he had given that speech after the first
Tuesday, after the 25th, it would have made a way bigger difference. But
to give it that late and the repercussions that happened right before it and
right after it totally made it pointless. And I was personally insulted.
Naeema:
How do you think it would have differed if he had made the speech like on
the 26th or on the 27th of January?
Kareem:
People would have been like more keen on finding like a middle ground
and not so bent on just him leaving.
Naeema:
The next day, Wednesday the 2nd, was, it kinda looked like a movie from
the news. There were people riding camels and horses and what did you
think of that?
Kareem:
Well I’d had previous experience with hired thugs. Like on one of the
Wednesdays I was, one of my friends was stuck in the Gezirah office and I
had to go pick her up because she couldn’t leave because she couldn’t
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leave because there were a lot of thugs under the building. So when I
finally got her they picked me up and they took me down and they were
like “I know you, you’re the guy from the protests you’re always causing
issues, come with us”, and it wasn’t even the police barricade, they were
just gonna take me to a back street and beat me up.
Naeema:
When was this?
Kareem:
This was January 26th.
Naeema:
That’s interesting that didn’t show any of that on the news. I personally
didn’t hear about that until now.
Kareem:
Yeah in Ramses Street on the 26th it was filled with hired thugs or
baltageya [thugs]. Just people wielding sticks and stuff that just were
surprisingly very pro government.
Naeema:
But I think that the 2nd of February was way more.
Kareem:
It was a lot more bas [but] I’m saying…
Naeema:
They were like charging against each other.
Kareem:
That was my first experience with the thugs and then after that it was just
became so obvious that all the supporters that came down for Mubarak
were hired.
Naeema:
What did you think of Wael Ghonim?
Kareem:
Well that’s a tricky question, I know Wael.
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Naeema:
You know him personally?
Kareem:
I know Wael. He got me my internship at Google. But, he has the right
cause and the right like ideology but I don’t think he should be that big of
a public speaker or to speak on our behalf necessarily, not that he’s not a
good guy, but I think this is more, this has been a people’s revolution –
meaning that not one, no one person can speak on our behalf.
Naeema:
February 11th 6 p.m., Hosni Mubarak, says he step- no, Omar Suleiman,
sorry…
Kareem:
Let’s not forget about the day before when he gave the..
Naeema:
That was pretty confusing, but…
Kareem:
My mom cried when she heard that speech. That he was just gonna, he
was willing to stay in command and watch more and more people get
arrested and more and more people get injured or killed just out of like,
what? Arguing? Out of being non-sympathetic with the situation? He
could not get it in his head that everyone was willing like, that’s why the
next day 20 million people all over Egypt came out, came down into the
streets – and that’s a massive number.
Naeema:
Yeah, it is. But yeah 6 p.m., Omar Suleiman says Hosni Mubarak stepped
down. What was, where were you?
Kareem:
I was in my bedroom. I was too tired to go to Tahrir that morning and I
was supposed to go at night. I was in my bedroom and my mom starts
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screaming saying “Kareem, come look, come look what happened.” And I
just rush out into the balcony wearing my boxers screaming into the street
tanaha [resigned], tanaha [resigned], and everyone can’t believe and just
happiness and joy. Everyone is celebrating, fireworks and gunshots and
just any means of celebration. I went to Korba after that and people were
just goin’ crazy.
Naeema:
Now that everything’s over. It all happened in 18 days, 18 crazy days that
were so spontaneous and very random, personally, I believe. Now it’s
been almost a month and a half since the first day of protests. What do you
think is, what’s gonna happen? How long do you think it’s gonna take for
Egypt to completely reach stability again and just go back to normal?
Kareem:
Well it was just a matter of us finishing everything else. Remember that
we had demands and when that happened only two of them had been met,
or one and a half technically: that Mubarak himself would step down but
there was still Omar Suleiman and there was still, and he left and then the
changes to be made in the constitution and that happened. The hokouma
[government] to leave and that happened thankfully, and now El Amn El
Markazy [Central Police Force], so I think that after the events of the last
weekend we’re well on our way to an incline.
Naeema:
So how long do you think it’s gonna take?
Kareem:
Well no one ever like bounces back from something that big that easily,
but the initiative people are taking and all of the movements being taking
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and everything, I think give it like two months. More important than that, I
think we should be the first country to economically benefit from a
revolution, just give it time.
Naeema:
How exactly would you think that would happen?
Kareem:
Because people will have more faith seeing like how reliable, cause you
can’t forget this was the most peaceful revolution I think ever took place
and the Egyptian people showed a huge amount of restraint and respect
while maintaining the things they wanted to achieve. So I think, everyone
was looking towards us, everyone was holding up proudly and I think
Egyptians grew in everyone’s mentality.
Naeema:
One last question, well two. Do you believe that the new government that
will be placed, do you think that it will be completely uncorrupted?
Kareem:
Well that’s kind of tricky because when there’s politics it will always be
corruption. But I think the main thing we’re focusing on is for it to be like
see through.
Naeema:
Yeah.
Kareem:
That you can see what’s happening.
Naeema:
And you’re actually like know what’s going on.
Kareem:
And everyone’s become more involved. And the thing is when something
corrupt happens, or when they catch it, the way they are dealing with it
now is very smart: to catch the person who took the bribe, the person who
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gave the bribe, the person who was in charge of this area where the bribe
was given and just kind of show the repercussions to everyone until
eventually it becomes subconscious thing that this is not acceptable.
Naeema:
Yeah. So yesterday I was here on campus at this ISLC conference and
they were showing this presentation and they had like all these pictures of
the revolution and like even though it just happened a while ago, when I
saw the pictures I was like, I don’t know I felt like this weird feeling pass
through my body. It was pretty fascinating. I was just like, I still couldn’t
process that all this happened. Like all the pictures, and Tahrir on fire and
all the army and the NDP building on fire and everything that happened, it
was just so, like, how do you think, how do you think this is gonna –
Kareem:
It’s pride.
Naeema:
Like how do you think people are going to look at it?
Kareem:
It’s pride. You have to be like, you have to be more proud that ever to be
an Egyptian citizen. You’ve accomplished something that first of all, first
of all I would I literally would be the last person in the whole world to
think that Egypt would be the first country to have an internet revolution
first of all. And for it to handled so well, like they kept beating and
attacking and prisoning and killing and no stupid moves were done by the
civilians, which I respect so much cause if a policeman is spitting in your
face and you wipe it out, and he spits again? The normal reaction is to
punch back. But none of that happened. 18 straight people losing their
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children, people watching people get beat up and arrested in front of them
and nothing happened. We just, the most important thing during the
revolution was selmeya [peacefulness]. In Tahrir whenever anyone would
like, I saw these two people burn a newspaper and then 10 thousand
people turned to them and started screaming “Selmeya! Selmeya!”
[Peaceful! Peaceful!] Two dudes were walking, swearing, just normal, like
any random person would do and then people turned towards em and said
“Selmeya!” [Peaceful!] So it was that whole aspect of just being
respectable. So when we finally achieve it, it was 100 percent correct.
Naeema:
This concludes our interview. Thank you for letting me interview you.
Kareem:
Anytime.