CIPD – Ep 112 Pt 4 Scott Duraraj
Philippa Lamb: Tell us about the job you’re doing now and how you came to be
doing it?
Scott Duraraj: Okay so I'm the head of patient experience for mental health and
learning disability at NHS England but I also hold a remit within the patient
experience team for vulnerable and marginalised patient populations which include
lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, in the widest population and the others which you can
call Q, I etc. so intersex as well, as well as gypsy travellers etc.
PL: No you’re a bit of an NHS lifer aren’t you?
SD: Yeah about 24 years I think now.
PL: Obviously you've been an NHS employee in a variety of roles for a long, long
time, what’s your experience as a black gay man been of being an NHS employee?
SD: There’s two types of organisation and two types of issues I've faced. Firstly
when I've worked in organisations where there are no black people, people are much
more comfortable to talk to me about the gay issue. And so it’s actually easier to be
gay than it is to be black, but one of them I have to come out about one of them I
don't. So I think that’s quite an interesting quandary how people find it perhaps easier
to talk about sexual orientation. In areas like Manchester, the big cities I guess that's
true to say. I think it’s a bit different in some of the more rural communities.
Where there's very diverse NHS organisations I've had some really interesting ones.
So I worked in an organisation in East London once, it was interesting there was
quite a few Asian staff there and my heritage is, my father was Sri Lankan, mother
was English, and I was in my 30s I think at the time and there was a woman there
and she said, “Oh you're not married!” and I said, “Oh no,” And she said, “Oh I've got
some friends I’d like you to meet.” So before I knew it I was kind of on a date with a
woman.
PL: Awkward for both of you?
SD: Well it was yes, it was a bit of a Will and Grace moment and I was very honest
with her and we had a good laugh about it actually and everybody was really cool.
PL: So this brings me to the question of voluntary disclosure because, as we’ve now
discovered, the disclosure levels amongst the lesbian, gay, bi and trans community in
the NHS workforce are really, really low. If you’re working somewhere new how
would you gauge whether you wish to be open or not.
SD: So what I've been doing the last, probably, ten years of my career is before I
apply for the job I look on their website. I look to see whether they have staff
networks. I look to see whether they have positive mention of same sex relationships.
So their benefit policies, so whether it be maternity and adoption, they talk about
same sex couples. When they talk about compassionate leave they talk about same
sex partners. I look for things like that because they’re little tones to tell you what the
culture, what the barometer is. And then I ask some specific questions in the
interview.
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PL: And you've felt reassured?
SD: Yes. I’ll ask because I…and there is a risk because if they choose not to employ
you because you've asked questions around, well I'm thinking of adopting, for
instance, which I was at the time, what is your same sex adoption policy? Now I look
for body language. You become skilled at this and I didn’t see any grimaces or
anything, apart from the fact they didn’t know the question.
PL: Just confusion.
SD: Yeah and I actually got the job. And there is an argument here, so some people
say, “I would never do that because I might never get the job.” My answer is well if I
wasn't going to get the job because I was gay then I wouldn’t want the job in the first
place.
PL: So what do you want to see in organisations, because obviously you’re involved
with the NHS, I'm thinking about organisations generally who have a stated objective
for whatever reason, financial and/or legal, ethical, to make their workplaces more
comfortable and welcoming and inclusive for everyone, what do you want to see? Do
you want to see networking groups? Do you want to see straight advocates? Do you
want to see LGBT champions? What works for you?
SD: None of that really.
PL: Right.
SD: I think what I want to feel, so I don't want to see things I want to feel that I'm not
judged by my sexual orientation or the colour of my skin.
PL: I completely understand what you’re saying about that, I'm interested, I'm putting
myself in the shoes of a CEO of a boardroom and thinking, we want to drive that
culture in our organisation that’s who we want to be. They’ve got to have some sort
of strategy for making that happen with their people haven’t they? So what should
they be doing?
SD: So strategies are really I always say start with data. So I've worked in trusts
where we’ve got 90-odd percent sexual orientation data and so I think starting with
data is really key. Educating staff about their own data, because I don't think you'll
ever get to customer or in NHS terms patient data unless staff feel comfortable. And
in the NHS I often get, and this is quite critical really, people saying, “Yeah but it’s
just really difficult asking them questions.” And I say, “But in the NHS we can ask
somebody to strip off and get into a gown with their backside showing, for an x-ray.”
But we can't ask them what their sexual orientation is. And some people go, “Yeah
but that's what they do in their bedroom.” And no it’s actually not. It’s not about sex.
And I think they’re the things. So what I've learnt over the time is the barrier to those
questions is not the people answering them it’s the people asking them.
PL: Do you get the sense that employers generally are getting there with this?
SD: I am of course of I am. So with the advent of equality within the workplace and
the equality within social settings with regards to goods, facilities and services and
equal marriage, all of that drives a new normal and I think I saw statistics being a
father of two wonderful children, that adoption now, 12% of new adopters are LGB
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which I think is fantastic and there's still more work to be done on transgender
adoption. But I think we are getting there and I think there is a creation of a new
normal but it’s interesting when you go out it’s created a difference. It’s much harder
to be public and not be out when you’re an adopted parent. And it’s something I
hadn’t considered. When you've got two kids and one’s shouting daddy and the other
one’s shouting pops everybody in that vicinity knows you’re gay parents. So a hate
crime for LGBT people is on the increase and has continued to.
PL: Are you worried that's going to reflect in the workplace?
SD: Well most workplaces are a reflection of society. I do still look at organisations if
I'm looking for another role, if I'm going for an interview I still think about how will I fit?
PL: And do you think college leavers are doing that right now?
SD: I think some are and I think maybe their first choice will be an organisation that
has a history of positive LGBT outcomes either in Stonewall or have stuff on their
website.
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