Security Jam - Trafficking in Human Beings – security measures and the community
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10/16/14, 1:26 PM
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Jam Chats For October 14, 2014
Chat Host: Giji GYA
Oct 14, 2014
10:00 AM EDT
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Topic: Trafficking in Human Beings – security measures and the
community
Trafficking in human beings (THB) is a crime consisting of recruiting, transporting,
transferring, harbouring or receiving persons by means of threat, use of force or other
forms of coercion. How can the collaboration between security sector actors (such as the
police, border guards and the judiciary) and the community be strengthened to prevent
THB and to improve victim identification and protection within the EU and Schengen
area? Join a Jam Chat with Giji Gya, Head, Asylum, Migration and counter-THB
Programme, DCAF.
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Chat transcripts
Trafficking in Human Beings – security measures
and the community
Hosted by Giji GYA
How can defence and security organisations
encourage gender equality?
Hosted by Claire Craanen
Tomorrow's Foreign Policy Leaders
Hosted by Katrina Murray
Giji GYA 10:00:36 AM EDT
Dear all, Welcome! I am Giji Gya, Head of the Asylum, Migration and counter-THB
programme at DCAF in Switzerland. I was formerly the Director of International Security
Information Service Europe in Brussels, so hi to all In BRU! Our chat is “Security sector
responses to trafficking in human beings “. Myself and Daria hosting....
Giji GYA 10:00:46 AM EDT
I will start by asking a Q in general (with some orientation to our invited guests by using
@firstname at the end of the question, but all are welcome to contribute of course!)
Giji GYA 10:00:53 AM EDT
Please write short responses! and I will attempt to guide the chat a little with “@”
responses back.
Giji GYA 10:01:03 AM EDT
I would like to welcome our invited guests (apologies for skipping protocol and referring to
your firstnames whilst chatting… the chat will move quickly and it is simpler!): James
(Jim) Brown from IPTI, Markus Gaehwiler from Zurich police, Charlotte Isakkssson from
NATO, Romulus from Romanian Anti Trafficking Agency, Andy from Sussex police, Marc
Wheeler from MP (UK) Catherine Bearder’s office, Nancy Rivard from Airline
Ambassadors International & Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen the Dutch National
Rapporteur.
Giji GYA 10:01:28 AM EDT
Our questions deal with the security sector (as the Jam is security themed). Although it
may seem centred on local police security, rather than international “security and
defence”, the global situation of conflict and migration, as well as economic difficulties,
create the push and pull factors that lead to Trafficking in Human Beings (THB). Hence in
the big picture, it is all interrelated.... We have 45minutes. Let’s go……!
Romulus Nicolae Ungureanu 10:01:38 AM EDT
hi all
Giji GYA 10:01:43 AM EDT
First Q: • What are some examples of good community cooperation with the police to
combat THB? (eg with NGOs with street workers ? ) @Marc @Andy @Jim @Romulus
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Samy Tshimanga 10:01:45 AM EDT
Hello my name is Samy Tshimanga
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:01:50 AM EDT
Cooperation between source and destination countries is vital. This should be both at
police level as at pps level. For that you need trust and well informed liaison officers,
stationed at the embassy in the source country.
Giji GYA 10:02:11 AM EDT
thanks Corinne!
Giji GYA 10:02:35 AM EDT
what are the challenges to financing cooperation?
Giji GYA 10:02:41 AM EDT
@Corinne
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:02:46 AM EDT
hi you all, one more thingDo not forget to engage Europol as they are in a position to tie
the dots and thus get a bigger picture. Too often investigations stop at the national level,
thus leaving part of the criminal organisation in tact.
Giji GYA 10:03:20 AM EDT
@Corinne. indeed. EUROPOL and INTERPOL. unfortunately both couldn't join the chat
today.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:03:50 AM EDT
not really, it is all about trust and getting to know each other,In the Netherlands
cooperation between police and NGO’s is good, specifically the relations with shelters.
We set great store by partnerships between all relevant stakeholders, including the
municipalities
Mark Wheeler 10:04:07 AM EDT
There are growing positive examples in the UK of the police and local authorities working
with communities against trafficking and similar groups. Achieving primary success in
awareness raising but with some examples of working to provide training to people on the
front line.
Giji GYA 10:04:18 AM EDT
Thanks Corinne. @markus • What are some examples of good community cooperation
with the police to combat THB? (eg with NGOs with street workers ? )
Giji GYA 10:05:11 AM EDT
and @Mark... was about to ask u that thanks!
Giji GYA 10:05:34 AM EDT
also what role can Members of parliament play? @ Mark
Markus Gaehwiler 10:05:46 AM EDT
We run reconnaissance Team MAK. This two guys go into where potentiel victims are
and build trust with them
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Giji GYA 10:06:20 AM EDT
and these are police, yes @Markus? DOes it take time to build trust?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:06:26 AM EDT
@Mark, municipalities play an important role,Municipalities on the whole have a role to
play. They can put up barriers. Traffickers need a house, transportation, sometimes a
licence. Municipalities should own up to this responsibility. If not they might be perceived
as facilitators. Non criminal but facilitators nonetheless
Giji GYA 10:06:45 AM EDT
@Romulus, do you have similar in Romania as the NL and CH and UK examples?
Markus Gaehwiler 10:06:45 AM EDT
They also have a good cooperation with the NGO FIZ Advocacy and Support for Migrant
Women and Victims of Trafficking and Flora Dora with the Social Department. Both are
sources of good information and knowledge about victims
James Brown 10:07:32 AM EDT
Gigi: I think there are numerous examples of successes on combating HT, however I
think we want to find out the broader organizations "triggers" that are necessary for
organizations to respond to HT. I would suggest that the the key ones are training and
awareness. The big task is to determine how to address those at the organizational,
regional and national levels.
Giji GYA 10:07:50 AM EDT
Thannks Corinne. The NL has developed a lot of good examples to combat THB including your role as National rapporteur.
Mark Wheeler 10:07:53 AM EDT
Catherine and many other MEPs and MPs role is, I would say, to facilitate this
cooperation and to make the connections between the local communities and the police.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:07:56 AM EDT
in the NL we have several multidisciplinary teams that consist of police, social services,
youth care, ops and so on, usually the municipality funds the coordinator
Giji GYA 10:08:10 AM EDT
Thanks MArkus - yes it is important across all sector cooperation NGOs, VA services.
Markus Gaehwiler 10:08:50 AM EDT
It's all about the network
Giji GYA 10:08:53 AM EDT
Hi Jim. Yes more on triggers and Demand is very important. and assisting actors to
respond proactively
Giji GYA 10:09:25 AM EDT
Thanks Mark - facilitation is often something that is waylaid and MPs role is v impt in this
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Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:09:27 AM EDT
Awareness and training are keywords. It was frustrating for the police that many
succesful investigations did not end in a conviction. In NL and many other countries
judges are now also trained which in NL was a factor in the rise of convictions.
Giji GYA 10:09:46 AM EDT
and markus' comment supports that too that networks and trust building are important.
Mark Wheeler 10:09:46 AM EDT
@Corinne exactly right. High profile cases of internal traficking in the UK in recent years
have emphasised this.
James Brown 10:10:06 AM EDT
I would suggest that the step beyond organizational awareness and training is the issue
that Mark and Corinne addressed regarding "community trust", without which little gain
can be made.
Giji GYA 10:10:31 AM EDT
Thanks Corinne for bringing up frustration we sense that as well amongst Law
Enforecmeent Agents (LEAs)
Giji GYA 10:11:01 AM EDT
Agreed @JIm training is important, but the implmentation and support of that is key
Giji GYA 10:11:30 AM EDT
@Romulus can you talk a little about the UK-RO joint implementation/cooperation?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:11:43 AM EDT
Yes the judiciary are a hard group to involve, it took me 6 years and two extensive reports
on jurisprudence to prove my point and get them to listen and start training
Giji GYA 10:11:45 AM EDT
@Nancy also the community cooperation. • Some initiatives – such as that of Airline
Ambassadors International, or corporate companies in the tourism industry (TheCode) train staff (in this case in airplanes) and/or raise awareness to detect Trafficking in Human
Beings (THB). What are some of the challenges and positives in this? > @Nancy
Romulus Nicolae Ungureanu 10:11:59 AM EDT
HI
Romulus Nicolae Ungureanu 10:12:01 AM EDT
i am sorry
Romulus Nicolae Ungureanu 10:12:09 AM EDT
just lost connection for a few minutes
Romulus Nicolae Ungureanu 10:12:17 AM EDT
yes sure
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Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:12:31 AM EDT
Research shows that victims and perpetrators most often originate from the same country
although the exploitation takes place in another country. That means that the perpetrator
usualy has a hold over the victim in her/his country of origin. The police should be aware
of this and take this seriously. Working together with NGO’s can help. And a wellinformed
liaison officer.
Giji GYA 10:12:35 AM EDT
@Corinne. Indeed. Great work. Are there other countries that have reached also this
level of cooperation with the judiciary?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:13:12 AM EDT
@Romulus the NL and Romenia have a longstanding cooperation
Giji GYA 10:13:13 AM EDT
thanks @Corinne... also • The EU Directive 2011/36 on preventing and combating
trafficking in human beings and protecting its victims, brings a victim centred and human
rights approach to countering and preventing trafficking. What might be some of the
challenges for the security sector to uphold human rights @Corinne @all
Romulus Nicolae Ungureanu 10:13:13 AM EDT
first of all i would like to mention as well the fact that community police could play an
important role in identifying VoT
Giji GYA 10:13:39 AM EDT
especially when a victim is threatened/their family threatened?
Mark Wheeler 10:13:41 AM EDT
Many community groups are focusing on providing training for taxi drivers, hotel workers
etc. This should not be forgotten.
Romulus Nicolae Ungureanu 10:13:43 AM EDT
yes indeed Corinne
Claire Healy 10:14:00 AM EDT
Hi All, joining a bit late, but have caught up. Very interesting so far. A Romanian
Prosecutor (in RO they also have responsibility for investigating cases, correct me if I am
wrong @Romulus) told me about a case she investigated of trafficking in homosexual
teenage boys, where she personally decided to build up a relationship with them, even
though she had no previous experience of working with LGBT populations. Through this
personal approach, she was very successful in getting most of them to testify and
achieving convictions.
Giji GYA 10:14:10 AM EDT
thansk @ROmulus. community policing (compol) indeed is now seen as a way forward
Romulus Nicolae Ungureanu 10:14:10 AM EDT
thank you for mentioning this and I think we could share with the participants some of our
initiatives
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:14:21 AM EDT
The protection of the victim should be the centre of the approach. Nevertheless we need
victims to testify and cooperate with law enforcement. When they are too scared or
traumatised to do so provisions for them need to be made.
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Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:14:47 AM EDT
Victims are often reluctant or too scared to come forward. LE can’t wait for them to come
but should go out to get the eveidence. Target high risk sectors, fi massageparlours or
agricultural sites, scan the internet for sex advertisements
Giji GYA 10:15:13 AM EDT
Great @Claire. A good example of the need for a large skill set for the security sector
actors... as also exampled by @Markus and @Corinne... determination
Markus Gaehwiler 10:15:17 AM EDT
And it's not good for a victim to appear in front of the court and speak in the presence of
the traf-fickers. That should be changed in many countries
Romulus Nicolae Ungureanu 10:15:43 AM EDT
i would mention here something important
Romulus Nicolae Ungureanu 10:15:56 AM EDT
the VoT during criminal proceedings
Romulus Nicolae Ungureanu 10:16:07 AM EDT
they need to receive assitance
Giji GYA 10:16:17 AM EDT
@Corinne...• What do we need more to fight THB in cooperation with other sectors
(judicial/witness protection)? witpro has its challenges with both victim fear (protection
and being returned) and lack of inter-agency coordination.
Romulus Nicolae Ungureanu 10:16:18 AM EDT
and we are running a programme here in Romania
Claire Healy 10:16:26 AM EDT
Another very important aspect to cooperation with law enforcement is the idea of cultural
mediators from the affected communities. They can be either members of police/judiciary
staff, or a separate position, mediating between victims/suspected victims and law
enforcement. This means focusing on recruiting and training members of, e.g. Roma
communities in Europe, Nigerian communities in Europe, LGBT populations, etc.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:17:01 AM EDT
@Mark, the Dutch system provides for that but it is a different legal system. hearing them
however in a separate room with camera connection would be a good alternative
Claire Healy 10:17:10 AM EDT
This facilitates better communication in relation to language and culture, as well as
building trust.
Giji GYA 10:17:18 AM EDT
@Markus @ROmulus yes. Governments (and MPs need to ensure) to give more
resources to VA
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Giji GYA 10:17:26 AM EDT
@MArk thoughts?
Claire Healy 10:18:06 AM EDT
@Corinne and @Mark, this is already commonly used and is best practice when child
victims (under-18) are testifying.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:18:15 AM EDT
@Claire indeed, we had an experience with a large group of Nigerian victims under
voodoo spell and the police invoked a voodoo priest. in the end the court accepted that
James Brown 10:18:24 AM EDT
Many Police Services in the UK have established a "Liaison Officer" role, which is
focused on support for the victims (usually of violent crimes), with the officers role as
advocate, and interpreter of the legal system. This is likely a role that HT VoT support
process could be modelled on.
Romulus Nicolae Ungureanu 10:18:29 AM EDT
yes indeed
Giji GYA 10:18:53 AM EDT
yes @Claire. culture is also a challenge, again when many actors are under resourced ,
and challenges with language barriers. @Jim liaison officers v important too
Mark Wheeler 10:19:12 AM EDT
There are strong campaigns for a system of guardianship for child victims in the UK.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:19:23 AM EDT
The police can’t fight trafficking on its own. Modern slavery needs a whole society to say
we don’t want this, not just the law enforcement angle.
Jelle Swanenberg 10:19:40 AM EDT
The awareness for burglars in certain Dutch neighbourhoods crafts itselfs through
'whatsappgroups'. People inform each other about irregularities. The police uses for
example dog owners to warm them when they notice something illegal. You can't
transport human beings unseen. The question is will it be heard? How can we manage
that the seer informs us effectively?
Claire Healy 10:19:45 AM EDT
@James, do these Liaison Officers have a cultural mediation role as well - are they
recruited from affected communities?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:19:52 AM EDT
@Mark we have that in place in NL
Giji GYA 10:19:58 AM EDT
culture also brings up the Q of ....begging and ROma .• Forced begging - is listed for the
first time in the EU Directive 2011/36 (albeit as force labour). How can the security sector
and community cooperate to intervene in exploiting people for begging? What are the
risks? @Romulus @Marc
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Stela Haxhi 10:20:44 AM EDT
In terms of prevention, the entry procedures in the national legislation should be
reviewed. If the entry procedures for foreign citizens are not clearly defined, the traffickers
benefit. I have in my mind the visa policy and the guidelines for labour inspectors, police
officers and consular offices. Indicators on these fields may help them in identifying
potential victims of THB. On the other side, the cooperation between different authorities
dealing with migration issues and labour issues is crucial. A stay permit should be not
delivered, before verifying the type of work a person was offered to do.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:20:58 AM EDT
@Claire, the liaisons I was mentioning are police officers that have excellent contacts on
police level
Mark Wheeler 10:21:00 AM EDT
How many EU countries have confidential phone lines to report suspicions?
Giji GYA 10:21:11 AM EDT
thanks @Jelle Social media and technology indeed is used by perpetrators for trafficking.
Successful police operations have used tracking of calls and messages to stop THB
Claire Healy 10:21:23 AM EDT
@Corinne at ICMPD we are coordinating a large-scale research project - DemandAT with DCAF and many others, to examine the "demand" for trafficking - a whole society
approach. Details at: http://demandat.eu/
Romulus Nicolae Ungureanu 10:21:26 AM EDT
one of the risks indetified is that cultural disparities when we are talking about ethnical
groups begging is that local communities are not feeling safely at all
Giji GYA 10:22:15 AM EDT
Thanks @Stela. Legislation is key but also making it user friendly for front line to
implement it. Also the link between LEA and labour inspectors as you point out. More
work needs to be done here.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:22:21 AM EDT
@Sheila, staff of the immigration bureau are also trained in THB signs
Romulus Nicolae Ungureanu 10:22:37 AM EDT
and border guards as well
Giji GYA 10:22:52 AM EDT
Good Q @Mark. Several to our knowledge. Crime Stoppers International for example
Romulus Nicolae Ungureanu 10:23:10 AM EDT
even if it is more difficult in the border points to identify VoT
Giji GYA 10:23:30 AM EDT
yes @Romulus. training also needs awareness raising of culture AND community
reactions
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Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:23:51 AM EDT
@Giji, also the labor inspectorate in NL is trained on THB, took some time but now they
are. Of course it is ongoing. There is still too much focus on sextrafficking and not enough
on labour trafficking
Maria Cristina Mattei 10:23:59 AM EDT
Italy experienced one of the most horrible tragedies last year with hundreds of desperate
people escaping war from North Africa, trying to come in Europe and dying instead near
Lampedusa's coasts. This happened also in the sad framework of TBH and revealed the
weak capacities of dealing with that. Not only there's a lack of co-ordination at the
national level between police forces and NGOS but there seems to be a common lack of
co-ordination at the supra-national level in this respect, conceiving illegal migration and
THB like totally separate phenomena. Mare Nostrum operation will be shut down this
November, without a substitute policy ( frontex plus cannot consider a reliable substitute
in terms of capacity). Are we sure we don't need to enlarge our focus when dealing with
THB, comprising also this kind of situation, trying to create a concrete common european
approach?
Claire Healy 10:24:19 AM EDT
An important distinction, @Giji, is that begging is not an aspect of Roma culture at all.
The vast, vast majority of European Roma are not involved in begging in any way.
Research indicates that over half of all people involved in exploitative begging and child
begging in Europe are from Roma communities, but this is not at all the same thing as
saying that begging is somehow part of Roma culture.
Giji GYA 10:24:36 AM EDT
INdeed @Claire! DCAF is involved in DemandAT reseraching how the Security Sector
addresses "demand"... quite challenging....
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:25:18 AM EDT
I am now at the crimestoppers international conference in Capetown, they have a 10 day
awareness week on THB, already one radio and two tv interviews, more than I get in the
NL
Claire Healy 10:25:41 AM EDT
@Mark Austria has a dedicated anti-trafficking phoneline run by the Federal Criminal
Office, and the Vienna police are trained to respond immediately to calls reporting
suspected trafficking.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:26:17 AM EDT
Forced begging we see in various forms, playing music or selling the street newspaper.
Municipalities find them a nuisance and want to get rid of them. They too need to be
sensitized to THB issues.
Giji GYA 10:26:28 AM EDT
Great @Corinne... another good example. @Claire - yes we agree... importnat that this
discussion is brought up more and to emphasise that not all of one group enacts
trafficking. @MAria also important the awareness of links between migraiton and THB
Giji GYA 10:26:47 AM EDT
I beleive there is a Syria forum in the SecJam which touches on migration/trafficking
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:27:06 AM EDT
With criminal exploitations a whole new issue needs to be addressed, that of the non
punishment or non prosecution clause. Prosecutors and judges strugle with i tand
Traffickers seem to use it, just as they use children under the age of 12, in many
countries the age of criminal responsibily. I think we will need the EHRM to really define
how this clause should be defined. One of the problems is that those dealing with the
crime committed under force are usualy not the trained THB magistrates.
Giji GYA 10:27:36 AM EDT
the community as well needs to have greater awareness of focred begging and street
exploitation @Corinne. WHat is NL doing in this respect?
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Claire Healy 10:27:48 AM EDT
I agree, @Corinne, in our research for the European Commission on child begging, we
tried to categorise these forms of begging, e.g. selling newspapers, playing music,
washing car windows, as "auxiliary" forms of begging, as opposed to "classic begging"
Markus Gaehwiler 10:27:55 AM EDT
I agree with you. Meanwhile the local NGO here in Zurich cannot deal anymore properly
with all the victims because the lack of money.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:28:08 AM EDT
@Giji, we now see in NL asylum seekers from Syria with 14 year old brides, how to treat
them as wives or as children, I say children
Giji GYA 10:28:32 AM EDT
Age is an important aspect that needs to be discussed more vis-avis prosection
(cannabis cultivation case in point) thanks @Corinne. @ MArk something your MP can
look into?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:29:12 AM EDT
Prevention is mostly targeted at potential victims. Why not look closer at what drives the
mostly younger domestic trafficker. Could we have seen signs at an earlier stage, an
earlier criminal career?
Giji GYA 10:29:20 AM EDT
Switzerland has done some good work on brochures to stip fake marriages @Corinne.
They are displayed prominently in marriage licensing offices
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:29:34 AM EDT
Knowing that a lsubstantial group of sex trafficking victims has been sexualy abused as a
child we should put more emphasis on identifying victims of child sexual abuse. Which we
don’t.
Maria Cristina Mattei 10:29:54 AM EDT
By the way, I totally agree with @Claire about the idea of cultural mediators from affected
communities. THB is a pervasive phenomenon and it is thus necessary to engage with
trained actors within the community
Mark Wheeler 10:30:13 AM EDT
Modern Slavery Bill coming into UK law shortly includes provision to state that if there is
any doubt in whether or not a victim is a child then it will be assumed that they are and
they will be treated accordingly
Claire Healy 10:30:24 AM EDT
@Giji @Corinne, children must always be treated as children first, in accordance with the
UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. Any other aspect of their situation - marital
status, migration status, involvement in criminal activity, etc, must come second to their
best interests as a child.
Giji GYA 10:31:02 AM EDT
another good example of joint cooperation is 2 countries sharing experience exchange
(police, community, judiciary, NGOs) and developing joint brochures explaining to each
other the 2 systems s well and NRM and vicitim assistance. RO-CH have just done this. It
also points out strengths and weaknesses.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:31:07 AM EDT
@Giji they are not fake by Syrian standards, they ask asylum, sometimes invited, as a
family. Husband and wife. This poses a problem for immigration. I would look at that from
a THB perspective
Claire Healy 10:31:09 AM EDT
@Mark, that's great, and it's how it should be everywhere!!
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Markus Gaehwiler 10:31:25 AM EDT
@ Maria; luckily we can work together with trafficking.ch which is a group of people
dedicated to tackle human trafficking. With experts on different fields and a source of
knowledge, ie Nigerian or Chinese trafficking
Giji GYA 10:31:55 AM EDT
@Claire indeed. Public awareness also re children is needed when it comes to petty
theft, begging, pick pockets. in that the children could be traffickedetc
Claire Healy 10:32:14 AM EDT
@Corinne definitely, this is early/forced marriage (if the girls are 14) in accordance with
domestic and international human rights law and therefore should be treated as such.
Mark Wheeler 10:32:15 AM EDT
@Claire I will speak to Catherine (The MEP I work for) about raising this across EU.
Giji GYA 10:33:08 AM EDT
@Corinne indeed. re marriages This is a challenge, also where cultural aspects come
into play. Exploitation is the key aspect that needs to be considered.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:33:38 AM EDT
Commercial surrogacy can also be a good source of income for traffickers. Governments
should see this phenomenon also from the THB perspective. What are your thoughts on
this issue?
Claire Healy 10:34:12 AM EDT
@Giji Exploitation AND violation of child rights and/or human rights? "cultural aspects"
always come second to child rights and human rights
Giji GYA 10:34:22 AM EDT
if we can go a bit broader considering international conflict and security, Let’s go
international and military…… • What measures is NATO taking to raise awareness of and
combat THB? What are the challenges when training is the remit of the states? How does
the military work with the community to fight this? >@Charlotte
Giji GYA 10:34:42 AM EDT
this also ties with Syria
Claire Healy 10:35:09 AM EDT
@Corinne there was a recent case of this form of trafficking, sometimes called "baby
factories" in the Bulgarian media. A number of cases have also been identified in
Southern Nigeria.
Giji GYA 10:36:11 AM EDT
I agree @Claire... the chat fora makes sound discussion of these difficult. tbc!
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:37:11 AM EDT
@Claire and India. Countries make rules about the status of a child born through
surrogacy , forbid surrogacy in their own country, and do not contemplate what this may
mean.
Giji GYA 10:37:16 AM EDT
@Claire but also remembering that this chat is about community and security and these
challenges, which for some put culture first. Something we can't ignore.
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Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:37:58 AM EDT
With criminal exploitations a whole new issue needs to be addressed, that of the non
punishment or non prosecution clause. Prosecutors and judges strugle with i tand
Traffickers seem to use it, just as they use children under the age of 12, in many
countries the age of criminal responsibily. I think we will need the EHRM to really define
how this clause should be defined. One of the problems is that those dealing with the
crime committed under force are usualy not the trained THB magistrates
Giji GYA 10:37:59 AM EDT
back to police on the frontline• What are some of the current challenges for police in
monitoring (ie intelligence gathering/identification of victims) and intervening in Trafficking
in Human Beings (THB)? @Andy @Markus
Claire Healy 10:38:14 AM EDT
To be continued with pleasure, @Giji!
Markus Gaehwiler 10:38:17 AM EDT
@Charlotte: Can NATO provide law enforcement with intelligence? I mean, it’s all about
intelligence and information and the flow of it to the competent actors. We investigators
depend very much on that.
Markus Gaehwiler 10:38:49 AM EDT
To detect a victim is still the biggest step.
Giji GYA 10:38:52 AM EDT
@Corinne thanks for detailing the challenges in the judicial sector and the need for
greater THB awareness here
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:38:55 AM EDT
Research shows that victims and perpetrators most often originate from the same country
although the exploitation takes place in another country. That means that the perpetrator
usualy has a hold over the victim in her/his country of origin. The police should be aware
of this and take this seriously. Working together with NGO’s can help. And a wellinformed
liaison officer.
Markus Gaehwiler 10:39:25 AM EDT
And the flow of of information is insufficient on a local level due to many different
databases which not all investigators have access to, at least here in Switzerland
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:39:36 AM EDT
Investigations should not only be intelligence led but also finance led. Too little is done to
lay open a full financial impact. Trafficking is about money. That is where traffickers
should be hurt. And that can be the intelligence needed to start a successful investigation
Andrew Richardson 10:39:44 AM EDT
Some victims don't know they are victims and some do but are compelled to stay with
traffickers through fear.
Charlotte Isaksson 10:39:48 AM EDT
@ Giji, THB is integrated in the operational planning process in terms of direction and
guidance, there are examples on training modules within the framework of gender related
training, and there are examples f these aspects being part of exercises. NATO has a a
Policy on THB from where this integrated. I would say there are positive examples and
positive steps taken but the implementation part in terms of training, and exercises could
be strengthened.
Markus Gaehwiler 10:40:23 AM EDT
The bureaucracy in some countries is slowing joint investigation and the lack of money in
many countries makes cooperation difficult.
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Giji GYA 10:40:49 AM EDT
@Markus indeed. we wish to investigate more military/police cooperation vis-a-vis
combatting THB. Some other forums on the SecJam look at this as many CSDP missions
are security sector rather than military in post-conflict.
Claire Healy 10:40:59 AM EDT
@Giji the question on Syria, military, NATO etc - I think @Maria Cristina's point is
important, about the connections between irregular migration, smuggling and trafficking.
An irregular migration situation may become a smuggling situation if there is neither a
legal nor an autonomous migration alternative. And smuggling situations so often
becoming trafficking situations. Therefore the phenomena should not be treated so
separately by law enforcement and policy makers in general.
James Brown 10:41:01 AM EDT
@Marcus, regarding intelligence sharing with NATO. This is likely an issue that needs
further discussion with INTERPOL and EUROPOL. Gigi, you may want to put that on the
agenda for discussion at a later date. That will need some political impetus and pressure
from both the NATO side and the law enforcement side.
Giji GYA 10:41:32 AM EDT
@Charlotte thanks. How can it be stregthened?
Giji GYA 10:41:46 AM EDT
@Markus yes the $$$ question!
Andrew Richardson 10:41:58 AM EDT
With the free movement of people in the EU it is quite easy to traffic people about with too
many checks.
Markus Gaehwiler 10:41:58 AM EDT
And bureaucracy is in many cases is direct linked to an obsessive data protection
Claire Healy 10:42:13 AM EDT
@Andrew - sometime they are compelled to stay not just by fear but also by the lack of
viable alternatives for income generation.
Giji GYA 10:42:18 AM EDT
The EC has however provided a funding pool for Joint Investigation Teams (JITs) that it
needs to advertise more!
Jelle Swanenberg 10:42:45 AM EDT
To reduce human trafficking the first assumption is to make human trafficking to European
countries less interesting. A basis thought would say that stabilized countries near the
country of origine will give less integrational and cultural problems; like language barriers.
When we advance the refugee centers of surrounding countries refugees might feel
themselves saver than in Europe. It's hard to see how refugees from Syria are treated in
Turkey for example.
Giji GYA 10:43:56 AM EDT
@Claire re Syria @MAria yes. The EU is struggling with the mere size of
migration/conflict/smuggling and needs more concentration on this and not just risks of
terrorism (t put this in the SecJam light) Human Security = Security and we risk a whole
generation of vulnerability to trafficking/exploitaiton if we don't pay attention
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:44:17 AM EDT
@Jelle, over 30 % of victims and trafficker in NL are originally from the NL. Figures from
the US are comparable as far as victims are concerned, so it is not just a cross border
thing
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Giji GYA 10:44:36 AM EDT
@JIm yes. INTERPOL and EUROPOL certainly coop and with states too. @Charlotte can
you inform of NATO ccop with them?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:44:58 AM EDT
@Jelle Domestic trafficking is insufficiently recognized
Giji GYA 10:45:07 AM EDT
@Jelle yes "less interesting" means also addressing "demand" thoughts?
Claire Healy 10:45:37 AM EDT
@Andrew, and yet, on the other hand, the enlargement of the EU, combined with free
movement and residence rights, may have reduced trafficking because so many potential
migrants no longer need to resort to smugglers and are therefore less vulnerable to THB
Romulus Nicolae Ungureanu 10:45:47 AM EDT
@Jelle we have around 40% domestic THB in Romania
Giji GYA 10:45:54 AM EDT
I think our time is nearly up.....
Giji GYA 10:46:05 AM EDT
Last Q: • Trafficking in Human Beings for the purpose of exploitation for criminal activities
(to commit, inter alia, pick-pocketing, shop-lifting, drug trafficking, drug cultivation
(“cannabis gardeners”)) can create problems where the victim of trafficking is prosecuted
for the crime. How can the security sector be strengthened to prevent this? @all
Charlotte Isaksson 10:46:23 AM EDT
@giji Both through giving directions and guidance from within the structure relating to the
policy but also to work effectively within the framework of a comprehensive approach,
where we need to engage with CSOs and actors outside the military organisations
ensuring for example that the situational awareness we have are based on the full
picture. In terms of training and exercises there are examples of CSOs and NGOs taking
part and supporting the capacity building.
Andrew Richardson 10:46:27 AM EDT
It's Anti Slavery Day on Saturday in the UK and Gatwick are supporting this.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:47:00 AM EDT
@With criminal exploitations a whole new issue needs to be addressed, that of the non
punishment or non prosecution clause. Prosecutors and judges strugle with i tand
Traffickers seem to use it, just as they use children under the age of 12, in many
countries the age of criminal responsibily. I think we will need the EHRM to really define
how this clause should be defined. One of the problems is that those dealing with the
crime committed under force are usualy not the trained THB magistrates.
Giji GYA 10:47:16 AM EDT
Thank you all for a great debate. We will try to find a way to continue this! Best Giji
http://www.dcaf.ch/Programmes/Asylum-Migration-and-Counter-Trafficking-in-HumanBeings
Giji GYA 10:47:44 AM EDT
and be aware that it is anti THB day the 18th Oct and anti=trafficking week this week!
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Claire Healy 10:47:45 AM EDT
@Jelle, research by ORSAM on Syrian refugees in neighbouring countries
(http://www.orsam.org.tr/en/showArticle.aspx?ID=2629) showed that Turkey had very
favourable conditions for Syrian refugees, with well equipped and well-managed refugee
camps. However, this may have changed since the recent influx, due to the large
numbers involved.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:47:49 AM EDT
@Giji, thank you for being our host
Stela Haxhi 10:48:07 AM EDT
In general, the staff dealing with Refugee Status Determination as well as those dealing
with entry/return procedures should be trained on issues related to the group of persons
with specific need or vulnerable groups *especially potential THB victims.
Mark Wheeler 10:48:12 AM EDT
@Giji Thank you very much. Very interesting.
Romulus Nicolae Ungureanu 10:48:13 AM EDT
first of all this persons should not be incriminated, as it is the situation in Romania. But,
the problem still remains as committing even small crimes raise a security issue in th
edestination countries and LE are in the position to increase their capacities in countering
this aspects
Giji GYA 10:48:25 AM EDT
@Andy thanks!
Romulus Nicolae Ungureanu 10:48:28 AM EDT
@Giji thank you for hosting
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:48:50 AM EDT
@Claire, but it also seems that Turkish men buy young Syrian girls from the camps to be
their second wife.
Andrew Richardson 10:48:58 AM EDT
The victim of traffickign should be treated as that...a victim
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen 10:49:27 AM EDT
@Andrew indeed, we can't stop our debate!
Claire Healy 10:49:33 AM EDT
@Corinne yes, unfortunately it is not perfect...
Charlotte Isaksson 10:49:38 AM EDT
Thank you @Giji and @ all
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Claire Healy 10:49:47 AM EDT
Great forum, @Giji, Danke schön!
Markus Gaehwiler 10:50:34 AM EDT
And that is still a question whether we are able to detect a victim or not. oNly then we can
ask about excusatory reasons which led to the criminal activities.
Markus Gaehwiler 10:51:04 AM EDT
Cheers!
Daria Hagemann 10:52:07 AM EDT
Thanks for all your great inputs :)
End chat transcript
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