SAN DIEGO FOCUS GROUP
November 4, 1993
Moderator: Robert Mitchell and Jon Krosnick
RM: -- Robert, but that's the way it goes. Jon, my companion, spells his name
J-o-n, but the computer doesn't have "Jon" in it, so here we are. I hope you managed to
get something resembling your names.
It would be very helpful it you could turn your cards so I could see them, so -- so
-- and it's just the one side, so that's the way it is. Paul, Janice, Chris, Sarah, Zackery,
Lynn, Richard, Karen James and Sandra.
Well, how many of you have ever participated in a focus group before?
Male: In college, but as a survey.
RM: All right, quite a while ago.
Male: Um, for me, not too long ago, in fact, still there.
RM: I see. Okay. Well -Male: Still there.
RM: Oh, you're still there. I see. Okay.
Well, uh, I'm going to begin by passing out these packets and as the instructions
on the front said, I'd like you to not turn pages either at the beginning or as we go along
until I ask you to, so we'll all be in the same sequence. So leave it there.
(Pause.)
Male: Thank you, sir.
RM: Okay. Now, tonight we're gonna begin by having me present material to
you and ask you a series of questions. As -- as we get into the material and when I ask
you the questions, I'd very much appreciate it if you'd give your frank opinions. The
whole purpose of the group is to learn what you think and there's absolutely no right or
wrong answers to anything that we're dealing with, but it just gives me a chance to get
your reactions to the things that we'll be doing. Uh, and the best way to begin will be to
turn the page, take your pencil, uh, if necessary, put on your glasses and answer the first
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set of questions. When you finish those sets of questions, then do not turn the next page,
please, and you can indicate your answer to the questions by circling the appropriate
number.
(Pause.)
Richard, could you move your name tag up a little bit so I can see Lynn's. That's
better. Thanks. Got a pencil binn -- and if you're pencil runs out, we've got a supply
here ready to roll.
Okay. Now, I'll be presenting some material verbally. Please give me your
attention and when we get to certain points, I'll ask you to answer questions. The
programs that you've read about are just a few of the State's programs. Because of the
State's current budget problems, the State is reviewing some of it's programs to see if
they should be changed. In this particular interview, we are focusing on the State's oil
spill prevention program. Proposals are often made to the State to expand current
programs. The State does not want to do this unless tax payers are willing to pay for
them. One way for the State to find out about this is to interview people like you. In
interviews of this type, some people think the program they're asked about is not
needed. Others think it is. We want to give the opinions of both types of people.
Now I'd like you to turn the page. You'll find a blank page, and on that page, if
you would, please write you answer to the following question, and the question is:
Have you ever been asked to give your opinion about a specific State program like this
before? Yes, no or not sure. Have you ever been asked to give your opinion about a
program -- specific State program like this before? Yes, no or not sure.
All right. First I'll give you some background information about the -- excuse me
-- about the State's current oil spill prevention program. Then I will describe a proposal
to change it and what it would accomplish and give you an opportunity to say whether
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or not you think the change is one you would support. I will also ask you to tell me why
you feel the way you do.
Last year, tankers and barges carrying oil made about 3,000 trips along the
California Coast to bring oil to refineries and storage facilities on the shores. If you'd
turn to the next page, you'll see a map. Take a look at the map and then I'll go on to tell
you a bit about it.
(Pause.)
This is a map that shows where these ships go. The thicker the line, the greater
number of trips that take place along that route. The thickest line here shows where
tankers bring oil down to California. About half the tankers go into the San Francisco
Bay area, nearly half, as you can see go down the coast to the Los Angeles area. The
other lines show where tankers and barges carry oil to and from foreign countries and
along other parts of the California coast.
I'd like to discuss briefly the question whether anything that you've been shown
on this map surprises you for any reason.
Zackery: In looking at -RM: Yes, Zackery?
Zackery: The, uh, the far East imports or off the coast -RM: Which one?
Zackery: Coming from -RM: Which one are you thinking -Zackery: See the thick line? I -- I -- I suspect that would be from Alaska and -and down South or maybe a Southern -- South America, but, uh, the one coming
directly west which would be, I -- we would expect to be the far east -RM: This one here, yes.
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Zackery: Actually this one.
Female: This one.
RM: Oh, this one. I see. Uh-huh?
Zackery: Um, just wonderin' what -- where the source of oil -RM: Uh-huh -Zackery: -- would be coming from.
RM: Or going, actually -Zackery: Yeah.
RM: Actually, some of it, I think, goes. Any other surprises, things that when
you look at a map like this -Male: I used to build oil tankers -RM: Good.
Male: And I build the Valdese, the one that spilled all that oil up 'ere.
RM: Uh-huh.
Male: I did the main engine room.
RM: My goodness.
Male: So I know where these ships go and -RM: Yeah. So there's nothing surprising there for you.
Male: But they, uh, the Federal Government's gotta start makin' these ships have
double hulls.
RM: That's right. And we'll mention that. Surely. Anything else.
Female: Um, where's this one coming from?
RM:
Uh-huh, so you wonder where the bottom one is -- is coming from.
Actually, I'll be going on, but it's very useful for me to find out what questions you have
about it. Okay. Any questions from you?
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Male: No.
RM: Okay. All right. At the present time, California's oil spill prevention
program is one of the strongest in the Country. Companies that transport oil along the
coast have to obey regulations designed to prevent harmful spills from happening. If a
spill does happen, oil companies must pay the costs of cleaning up. These requirements
increase the cost to the oil companies of doing business in the State. And _________ such
as your household ultimately pay for this in higher prices for oil and gasoline. Your
household also pays something in taxes to cover the government's cost in inspecting and
licensing oil tankers and to develop contingency plans to handle oil spill emergencies.
Okay.
Now we have another question that I'd like you to turn back to the preceding
page, page two, and answer. It's another informational question. Before this interview,
were you aware that your household currently pays something in higher prices in taxes
to help prevent oil spills? Yes or no or not sure. Were you aware that your household
currently pays something in higher prices in taxes to help prevent oil spills? Okay.
Every spill that happens in California waters has to be reported to the State no
matter how small. State records show that each year there are many small spills and on
average, one or two larger spills. Small spills involve relatively few gallons of oil which
spill in the normal course of tanker and barge operations such as when they unload their
oil. The average smaller spill is less than 500 gallons, although each spill causes little, if
any, harm to wildlife, the overall harm can be significant because there are so many of
these smaller, uh, oil spills each year. The types of larger spills that happen in California
involve 1,000 or more gallons of oil. You may not remember hearing or reading about
some of these spills because although they do harm wildlife, then tend to get much less
publicity than the much bigger spills such as the Alaskan oil spill that Chris eluded to of
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a few years ago. Most of these larger spills in California happen because of human error
or equipment failure.
Sometimes tankers or barges, uh, bump into other ships;
sometimes the crew mistakenly opens a valve; sometimes they spring leaks. Other
things can happen. In one case, a tanker went on for more than a 100 miles leaking oil
in the water before it knew that this was happening.
Although there would be even more of these spills without the present oil spill
prevention program, the accidents that cause these larger spills that I've mentioned that
still continue to happen are hard to prevent. One of the most common types of larger
oil spills are because that occur when tankers are out at sea. These tankers that I'm
talking about are 25 or more miles off shore. Each year, several tankers of this kind
release oil accidentally into the water. By the time the oil from these particular spills
approach shore, it is broken up and no longer poses any danger to wildlife along the
shore. But before this happens, however, these spills can kill birds out at sea. This
happens because when the oil is released, it floats on the sea and it attracts sea birds.
They mistake the place where the oil is floating for a calm area where they can land to
rest or to dive for food under water. And then when the birds land in the oil, if they get
seriously oiled, of course, they're killed. An average of about 5,000 birds are killed each
year by these spills in the open sea and in addition to the birds getting killed, some other
birds who happen to get lightly oiled are unable to hatch healthy young.
According to marine biologists who have studded these off-shore spills, the spills
that happen in the open water, these spills rarely harm marine mammals or the larger
off-shore fish. Marine mammals such as sea- -- seals, sea lions, dolphins and whales are
able to leave the area when a spill occurs and larger off-shore fish are not harmed
because they're able to swim out from under the oil which floats on the surface of the
water.
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The number of birds that are harmed by these oil spills each year is small relative
to the total number of breeding and migratory birds. There are over 700,000 birds that
live year-round in California and breed along the California coastline. Also, many
_____________ of migratory birds spend a portion of their year in California on their
way to or from their nesting grounds.
The next page, if you'd turn to it, after the blank page, shows some birds that -- I
believe it's page five. If you'd turn to page five and take a moment to look over this
page, if you would.
(Pause.)
Are any of these birds, birds that are familiar to you by any chance?
Female: Home runt.
RM: Home runt.
Female: Well, uh, just the -RM: Hard to tell -Female: Yeah, it's just -RM: Any others?
Female: There's a pigeon here -RM: Actually, it's called a pigeon, but it's a funny type of pigeon. It's a type of
pigeon that actually floats on the water and stays out at sea most of the time, so for some
reason they call it a pigeon gillemont, but it's more like a sea bird than -- than the
ordinary pigeon. Yes?
Male: I just -- I've seen the muir on ______________
RM: Uh-huh. Where?
Male: Like PBS. It was the Texas area it was covering.
RM: I see.
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Male: Other than that, never came in contact with one.
RM: Okay. Uh-huh. Any others? Paul?
Paul: Uh, I've seen one of the bird programs on PBS, that sort of thing, but other
than you're, uh, top comer out there probably, why, uh, I haven't -RM: Uh-huh.
Paul: -- you know, come personally in contact with any of 'em.
RM: Uh-huh. Part of the reason would be for us because these birds are sea birds
and they tend to live off shore so much of the time. Um, these are the species of birds
that are typically the ones that are most affected by these open sea oil spills and you can
see they include some species that have a very large resident population, that is, a
population that lives in California or breeds in California like the muir with the
population of 351,000. And then the pigeon -- well, I guess the pelagic cormont is the
one with the smallest resident population of 14,300. None of these birds including the
pelagic cormont are endangered.
Do you have any questions about the birds or the information that I've told you
about the birds? James?
James: So you're sayin' 5,000 birds are killed a year and there's 15,000 of each of
these left and there's five species with, we assume, 1,000 of each of those are killed a year
-RM: Okay.
James: That's 10% of that.
RM: Uh, yeah. That's a very useful question. Um, no, in fact, typically only a
small number of them -- of the ones of the smaller population would be involved in any
one spill. Sometimes most of the birds are common muirs. Yeah. No, that's -- that's a
very helpful thing cause it's -- if you do the math, then it's pretty grim for these birds
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with the smaller, but um, as I say in truth they're spread out more, so um, they would be
-Female: At what point would they consider it endangered?
RM: Endangered is something that the Federal and State governments designate
and it's based on a population that can't sustain it's own or was in danger on not
sustaining it's own.
Female: Uh-huh.
RM: So it's uh, something that's rather carefully bind to and then species are
officially put on the list and then when they -- when they grow in population, often
would take off the list.
Male: Uh, they come up with these endangered, uh, numbers and this short of
thing and, uh, and all a sudden, it, uh -- something comes up that just happens to be
cumulative and then it's in the _____________ -- we didn't know about that. Too late.
RM: Uh-huh. So you think there may be some birds that are endangered that
aren't on the ______________ -Male: Yeah, there's a lot of this stuff that's going on that's cumulative.
RM: Uh-huh.
Male: We're dumpin' stuff out of our rivers, uh, and uh, the toxic build-up and
it's all cumulative, and uh, all of a sudden, one of these days, uh-oh, too late, we can't
turn it back.
RM: Uh-huh. Sir, how 'bout you? Any directions to the birds?
Male: Excuse me.
RM: I'm sorry. I picked a bad time to ask you that.
Male: I have a bad cold. Uh -RM: Zackery?
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Zackery: I've got a question: Um, what kind of impact do these birds have as far
as if they're sea-going birds on the environment as far as, uh, the fisherman, uh, do they
pick the nets, are there any significant, uh, negatives or positives toward, um, say my
life, cause I -- beings I don't see them -- out of -- you know, out of sight out of mind kind
of a thing.
RM: Uh-huh, uh-huh. I don't think any of these have any particular impact on
the fish the fisherman catch. Any other -Chris: What are you gonna do when they run out of fish?
RM: Well, the birds are gonna go bye-bye if we run out of fish.
Chris: Well, yeah.
RM: -- uh, cause that -- that's their diet. Um, any others? Okay, let me continue
then.
The species of birds that are affected by these open-sea oil spills will eventually
return to their former population size if -- if some of them are killed, just as they do
when large numbers of them are killed by natural causes such as disease or temporary
food shortage. The length of time it takes for one of these species, um, that I've shown
you to recover from the effects of one of these oil spills that I've talked about, is between
2 and 10 years. The actual numbers of years depends on the type of the bird, how many
birds of that species there are and the number of individual birds that are affected by the
oil.
Okay. I'd appreciate any reactions to this information.
Female: So when they get sick, who picks 'em up? Where do they take them?
RM: They just float and die.
Female: Okay, but the ones that still living -RM: Uh-huh.
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Female: -- where do they take -RM: You mean after an oil spill?
Female: Yeah.
RM: Oh, I see.
Female: There are still some that's living, where they take 'em?
RM: Sure. Sometimes you see on television pictures of that happening, but in
truth, in these open oil spills, nobody is out there to pick 'em up they just -Female: Let 'em die?
RM: Uh-huh. But as this said, birds, of course, are dying all the time from other
causes, um, from sometimes disease will sweep a population and sometimes there are
food shortages that birds face when their food supply changes in its abundance.
Chris: I've got a question to ask: All this nuclear waste that they've dumped into
the ocean, not just United States, but all the countries -- Russia just got kicked out of the
sea of Japan, and they're trying to dump some more nuclear waste in there. This
eventually will have some affect on the fish and if there's less fish, they'll be less birds.
RM: Uh-huh.
Chris: Is it makin' any impact on 'em now?
RM: Zero really.
Chris: Zero? They -RM: That particular problem. Uh-huh.
Chris: How much nuclear waste would you say we've all dumped into the
ocean?
RM: Well, it's a big ocean. As you know there is some waste off the -- off of San
Francisco, but it's a very, very small amount and as far as it affecting wildlife there's so
many other things that are --
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Chris: Worse?
RM: That -- that um, -Chris: They say those containers will not break open.
RM: Um -Male: They say.
RM: Okay. Let me proceed then. The reason for giving you the information that
I've given you is to get your opinion about whether the State should expand it's oil spill
prevention program at a greater cost to California voters or whether the State should
continue it's current program at the present cost. As I mentioned, it's very hard to
prevent these larger spills from occurring because there's such a large number of tanker
trips and so many things that can go wrong. However, a program has been developed
that could prevent most of the harm to wildlife from the larger spills that occur in the
open sea. The proposed expansion plan is to have an escort ship accompany every
tanker and barge when they're 20 or more miles out at sea. Escort ships such as this have
been used in other parts of the world and in a few places in the U.S. where they have
been very effective.
Now if you'd turn to the next page. This page shows an escort ship and the
tanker.
Chris: Looks like the Valdese.
RM: Escort ships are strong, specially designed ships that carry extra oil spill
containment equipment and trained crews. Like sea-going tug boats, they have very
large powerful engines. They would be operated by the coast guard and paid for by the
State. The most important things these escort ships would do is to help prevent spills in
California waters. They would do this by making sure the oil takers and barges stay in
the correct sea lanes and obey other shipping regulations. If a tanker became disabled,
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the escort ship would be powerful enough to keep the tanker from running around or
into something else that might damage it until other help can come from shore. The
other thing the escort ship can do is to take quick action in case a spill does occur to help
protect the birds from harm.
And if you'll turn to the next illustration. The expert ship's crew will quickly
circle the spill with the special type of boom called a floating sea fence that would keep
the oil from spreading. Then they would use a skimmer which is shown in this circle,
which is a device that sucks the oil from the surface of the water into holding tanks on
the escort ship. This oil would then be transferred to support ships such as the one you
see in a distance which would come out in response to the escort ship's emergency
signal.
Here's the amount of harm that could be prevented by the expanded program: It
is based on the best available data. If the current plan is kept in place, an average of
6,000 birds would continue to be killed every year by an open sea oil spills that I told you
about. Studies have been done which show that the expanded plan would reduce the
number of birds that would be killed in the open sea from 6,000 to no more than 1,000.
In other words, it would prevent the deaths each year of 5,000 sea birds.
As I mentioned earlier, your household already pays for the current program in
the prices you pay for gas and other oil products and then your taxes. The choice is
whether to keep the current program or to expand it in order to reduce somewhat the
harm from these open, uh, sea oil spills. Whatever choice is made will stay in effect for
the next 10 years beginning from 1994. At the end of that period in 2004, another
reevaluation will take place. By then, important improvements, including the use of the
double-hull tanker design would have been made and implemented.
Before I ask you to vote on this choice, you need to know how the plan would be
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paid for and what it would cost per household. An expanded oil-spill prevention
program would be paid by a new tax on every barrel of oil that is carried to California
by tanker beginning in 199- uh -- 4, towards the end. The oil companies would pay this
tax to a special State fund. The price of oil products such as gasoline would be increased
to cover this extra cost of doing business in California. By law, the fund in the program
would be under the control of a board of public trustees. This would help to make sure
the money is only used for this program and that the program would be run as
efficiently as possible. As I mentioned, the U.S. Coast Guard would run the escort ships
themselves. The state is willing to undertake an expanded program, but only if enough
people are willing to pay for it. If the expanded program is not approved, the State will
continue the current program.
There are reasons why you mo- -- might vote for the expanded program and why
you mo- -- might vote against.
If you'll turn the page to the next page. As you can see on this card, expanding
the State's current program would reduce the number of sea birds killed by spills in the
open ocean each year from 6,000 to 1,000. On the other hand -- and if you'd turn to the
next page, page nine -- the harm to the bird species is only temporary. Their local
populations will recover to their former size in 10 years or less. You might prefer to
spend the money to help solve other social or environmental problems instead or what
it would cost your household in higher oil and gasoline prices to save 5,000 birds a year,
might be higher than the expanded program is worth to you.
Now what I'd like you to do is turn to the next page and if you could answer the
question on that page.
(Pause.)
And then once you've done that, um, I would like you to, um, write why you
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answered the question the way you did -Female: On the next page?
Male: On the same page?
RM: Yes. Yes. In the blank space. For those of you who voted against, um, what
reasons you have for voting against, for those of you who voted for, what the program
would do or accomplish that makes you uh, want to pay for it.
(Pause.)
Male: What was that last question you wanted?
RM: Oh, if you -- if you voted against it, the reasons why you voted against it.
Or if you voted for it, what was it that the program would do that makes you -- or
accomplish that makes you want to, uh, pay for it.
Male: Okay.
RM: So it's just one answer depending on how you voted.
Chris: I got a comment on that skimmer thing.
RM: Okay. After we give everybody a chance.
Chris: Maybe I shouldn't even say nothin'.
RM: No, no.
Chris: Then it'd get done faster.
RM: That's uh -Chris: You know, they need more than double hulls, they need a new transfer
pipe going through any of the oil tanks to have hulls -- double hulls.
RM: Uh-huh. What kind of pipe?
Chris: A new transfer pipe that goes to any oil tank.
RM: Yeah.
Chris: If that pipe develops a leak, it'll suck the oil out.
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RM: Uh-huh.
Chris: It could be transferred overboard -RM: Uh-huh.
Chris: Like through your build systems.
RM: Uh-huh.
Chris: So if it has a double pipe inside -- a pipe inside of another pipe, that would
keep that from happening.
RM: Are they -Chris: They don't do that.
RM: They don't. Why not?
Chris: Well, when I was in the Navy, I lost 35,000 gallon alone, one in Japan,
because a pipe rotted out and it was sucking' diesel all out ______________.
RM: Uh-huh.
Chris: So. Another thing they do is when they pump bilges, when they log it so
high, they say, well, we'll pump it down to this level where the water's all in the bottom
-RM: Right.
Chris: As the ship goes, they're still gettin' oil out, some of it.
RM: Uh-huh.
Chris: But they do that late at night, you know.
RM: Uh-huh. Why don't we just wait until everyone has a chance to finish, and
take your time cause I'm very interested in your reasons.
Chris:
Our country's the only country that don't -- the government don't
subsidize ship building.
RM: Uh-huh. Okay. While Janice is finishing up -- take your time?
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Janice: _________________.
RM: Feel free to keep on -- um, how many of you voted against the program?
One, two three, four, five -- Richard, you were against it?
Richard: No, I voted for it.
RM: Okay. -- five six, and who else voted against?
Male: She did.
RM: Janice, you voted against? Okay. And then who voted for the program? So,
um, three. Did somebody not vote? Lynn, did you vote for or against?
Lynn: Against.
RM: I thought I had eight votes.
Female: Want us to do it again?
RM: Six -- yeah. Uh -- if you voted against, raise your hand. One, three, four, five
six, seven. Seven. Okay. The math comes out. Forgive me. Okay, those who voted for,
I'd be interested in, um, in having you just, uh, talk a bit about what it was about the
program that made you, uh, when you vote for. Uh, Paul, you were -Paul:
Uh, I'm just, uh, looking at it simply as -- as -- as what was being
accomplished and uh, I thought $25.00 year was very reasonable for the results that
would be gained.
RM: Uh-huh. Can you talk a bit about the results as you see them?
Paul: Uh, well -- the -- the -- I'm looking at the whole environment, uh, it's -- the
situation, that, uh, I thought it was, uh, you know, a very reasonable amount, uh, had it
been $50 or $100.00, then I might have thought, well, wait a minute, that's a little steep.
RM: Uh-huh.
Paul: But I was looking at the -- for the adorability of it, uh, I thought would, uh,
wouldn't uh, you know, it's like anything else, uh, you go to the store, you -- you've got
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so much to spend and something like this, I thought well, that $25.00 a year wouldn't be
bad. I could uh, I could live with that.
RM: Uh-huh. Okay. And what would you get for the money?
Paul: A big, uh, boost in cleaning up the environment.
RM: In particular, would it be more than just the birds?
Paul: Oh yeah, more than just the birds, oh, sure. Cause like I said earlier, I think
this is cumulative.
RM: Uh-huh. I didn't quite understand it then. Maybe you could explain it a bit
more what you mean by how this would prevent accumulative effect.
Paul: Well, uh, you're -- you're -- for the $25 bucks a year per household, uh,
you're uh, being able to, uh, stop these -- these uh -- or at least reduce these major oil
spills.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. But would it, um -- you see it as, um, as doing more than
preventing the death of 5,000 birds.
Paul: Oh, yes. Very, very definitely.
RM: Okay. That's what I don't quite understand. What -- how would it prevent
something else -Paul: You're -- you're uh, reducing the uh, the oil spills.
RM: How would the oil spills be reduced?
Paul: Well, by this program of having the, uh, the extra escort ships out there
with, uh, with booms available to surround the oil during a, uh, spill, uh, clean it up.
RM: Right.
Paul: Before it just goes out into the water and -- and creates a -- a big problem.
RM: Okay. So, it would be, it would prevent damage to what else besides the
5,000 birds that would --
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Paul: Well, the whole of major out there.
RM: Uh-huh.
Paul: Uh, uh, oil spills are -- are not good. It's not the sort -- sort of thing you
want on your beach or in my our bay or 25 miles off uh, off shore.
RM: Uh-huh. Okay.
Paul: Because these -- these things drift around and, uh, some of it sinks to the
bottom, uh, and uh, you've got, uh, accumulative damage to, uh, uh, not only the birds,
but everything else that's out there.
RM: Uh-huh. Such as?
Paul: Well, uh, uh, your floating sea populations, your plankton populations at
the, uh, uh, very top of the food chain. There's, uh, a whole lot from whales right down
to smaller fish that feed on these.
RM: Uh-huh.
Paul: And it just totally screws up the whole environment up there -- out there.
Once we've -- we've only got one world. We screw it up and it's gone.
RM: Okay. I think I understand wh- -Paul: _________ Do I make my point clear enough?
RM: Yeah, yeah. I -- I -- I, uh -- I got it. Okay. Let's see who else is voting for -the two. Chris and who else? Richard?
Richard: Like he say, you're interrupting the food chain.
RM: Uh-huh.
Richard: What right do we have to destroy other living things if we can prevent
it? I don't care if it's $2.00 -- it's only a little over $2.00 a month. I think it's worth it.
RM: Uh-huh.
Richard: And we don't have the right to do that, just to make our lives a little
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more luxurious. We're not the only thing on the earth.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Richard: And we rely on the food chain. If you interrupt the food chain, we're
gonna be hurt by it in the future.
RM: How would this interrupt the food chain?
Richard: Well, you're -- just like the plankton is the beginning of it, then smaller
fish feed on the plankton, figure if fish -- you know, the smaller fish, this oil sinks to the
bottom, screw all that up.
RM: Uh-huh. Anything else?
Richard: Pretty much it.
RM: Okay. Chris?
Chris: I'm in agreeance with both these guys, because, uh, if we don't take care
of the earth, we let everything die, there ain't gonna be nothin' left for us neither.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Chris: I don't know if this is, uh, the only way of cleaning up the oil with that
skimmer, but, uh, it's still a small price to pay I think.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And besides, was there anything besides that Paul and
Richard said that _______________ (someone coughing) -- that the plan would help?
Chris: I don't know -- I don't know if that's even the only solution of cleanin' the
oil up that would help.
RM: Uh-huh.
Chris: I think there's gotta be a better way of doin' this uh, ________, and one
thing, uh, to keep from the oil spills, uh, to build the ships so they don't spill.
RM: Sure. And as I mentioned, in 10 years, one hopes they'll be a much better
situation in that --
20
Chris: Actually, they waited too long as it is.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Okay. Thanks very much. Those of you who voted
against, I'd be interested to hear, um, the types of things that you were thinking about.
Karen?
Karen: I -- I think that that um, I put down that first of all, we never see those
birds. Most people don't see those birds.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Karen: And that it's not -- it's not as important as other things are. We need to
do
with -- the money with more important things that are going on -RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Karen: -- right now and will get worse -RM: Right. Uh-huh.
Karen: -- than that.
Chris: Well, I'm sure glad they're ain't somebody better than me livin' above me,
sayin', we don't need that guy, let him go.
Male: Can't see ozone either, but -RM: Uh-huh.
Male: I think -- I'm in complete agreeance with Paul and Chris and Richard. The
thing is, I am a little bit skeptical of the State. When uh -- and the information I have of
$25.00 a year, how are they gonna get that in taxes on gas? I'm a business owner. I may
buy more gas than people every year -RM: Uh-huh.
Male: With a fleet of trucks -- there's just -- there's a lot to be left open there, you
know, uh, there's more immediate problems in my opinion, and, uh -- sewage problems
21
and things like that that are closer to the coast that I think are affecting the wildlife a lot
greater than these birds. Um, I'm a diver. I see it con- -- you know, it's progressively
getting much worse. I'm definitely in favor of protecting the eco system and -- but we
have a State that's in, uh, big trouble financially, and I also have children and they're
school problems -- they're -- $25.00
a -- a household, that's an awful lot of money, and I think it could go to better places and
-- and I don't know, I just -- with the information I have here, I don't really see -- well,
what I put too, is, you know, why can't they re-manage the money they have and then
use maybe fines to the ships that spill the most?
RM: Uh-huh.
Female: Uh-huh.
Male: And have them clean up their own mess, cause maybe some ships spill
more than others and have them pay for their own mess. And I'm sure that would still
come back to us in our gas prices, but -RM: Yeah.
Male: It'd be more of a -- a direct hit on the companies who, you know, cause the
problems the most. You know.
(Mumbling voices.)
RM: Sandra, you were nodding your head.
Sandra: I agree with James. They're already taxing us for something that they're
not doing anyway, so why are we paying more taxes? How do we know that they're
really gonna build these things? They should clean up their own mess.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Okay. Yes, Lynn.
Lynn: I think there's an important point here that maybe we're not looking at.
Uh, there is a current program. If there was no program, then, yes, I would agree. There
22
is a current program that's going on, and uh, there's too many other, uh, humanity
problems that are plaguing us right now. The homeless, ___________, so $25.00 a
household is an awful lot of money -RM: Yeah.
Lynn: For some birds that -RM: Uh-huh.
Lynn: People are more important right now.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Lynn: And there is a program.
RM: Yes.
Lynn: There is a program.
RM: Okay. Other people who said "no." Any other comments or -Chris: One other comment I -(Voices over one another.)
RM: Zackery?
Zackery: Well, on a personal basis, I know that I rare- -- I share a car with my
wife. We try not to use that much, uh, gasoline, and I think I do, uh, my part with, uh,
sharing rides, uh, whatever, to use less fuel. It think that the, uh, deeper pockets are the
companies that are shipping the oils and that they better take their, uh, the proper
precautions to make sure the ships don't leak, uh, whether there's a pressure valve once
the oil starts to leak -- hey, there's a little light that say oil's leaking or something very
basic that they'll know that they -- they can call back-up right there, and I'd like to know
the numbers as far as 25 miles off the coast when they're, uh, being escorted, uh, if that's
on every ship, well, how many would happen per year if it's only two and if there was
thousands of trips going on, I think that's a little overkill in the situation, uh -- I think
23
maybe there could be maybe a private sector out there that could, uh,
be -- create more jobs for the private sector for clean up whether it's the crane piece or
whether it's other companies that wanna, uh, be a part of that, uh, the clean up. I think
that's a better way to go rather than -- well, we gave government their chance, they do
have their program and it's not working well, I think that it -- there would be some more
-- there would be a better incentive for people to make money that way -RM: Uh-huh.
Zackery: Uh, let's see, I also put down, stricter -- stricter regulations and fines,
not only pay _____________ clean it out, let's say you may as well clean it up and why
don't you also, uh, uh, have one of those fines up above, just the clean-up costs. Why
don't you poor some money into, uh, other programs just to -- just to penalize them.
RM: Uh-huh.
Zackery: So they have _____________ spill -RM: Uh-huh.
Zackery: -- and upgrade rather than -- like we're talking about the double hulls
-RM: Uh-huh.
Zackery: Rather than wait 10 years down the line, well, maybe we should be, uh,
in the forefront and lead, uh, the oil industry and give more incentive to start out rather
than wait for the government to say, hey, you have to go with them, then we'll go along.
Why don't they just -RM: So you can think of another ways, that -- that you would prefer and that -Zackery: There are definitely other possibilities -RM: Which wouldn't cost any money to the tax payers.
Zackery: Uh, I don't -- I feel that the number one is definitely the technology, uh,
24
it's definitely out there, it's just -- it's gonna cost more up front for the oil companies, but
when they have one or two major spills a year, that technology, uh, would start paying
off real fast, I believe.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Anyone else who voted no. Sarah?
Sarah: Some of the figures I just wonder where you got -RM: Sure.
Sarah: Cause you say that species will return to itself -- will replace itself in 10
years, so you're talking just paying this money off for 10 years.
RM: That's right.
Sarah: So if doin' it for 10 years, we're gonna have -- not just replacin' it, but just
a lot more birds, I mean, more than 10 times that many. That's the way I see it. I mean,
if you don't do anything, they're gonna replace themselves, the birds, in 10 years.
RM: That's right. But until the 10 years -- uh, depends on the species. Some
actually recover -- recover quicker if -Sarah: Uh-huh.
RM: -- if isn't a large -- if it's one with a lot of members and the relatively few
people get hit, and you know, things go okay during breeding time, um, but of course,
in the period between when they recover and when they don't, there is some loss, but
they do recover, so it is something that's not irreversible.
Sarah: Uh-huh.
RM: And that -- and was important to you?
Sarah: Well, it's -- yes, because if they -- they're not gonna be extinct.
RM: Yes.
Sarah: It's not like we're doing away with 'em.
RM: No.
25
Sarah: And are the oil companies opposed to doing this themselves or just, um,
I mean, like you say, we're gonna -- you're talking about a tax, I mean, you can't just
impose this tax on the people and what, give it to the oil companies to fix their boats, or
are you saying they're just gonna raise the -- the rates at the pump, but it's not gonna be
an actual tax that the government is taxing us.
RM: Well, the government imposes a tax, then is put into a fund that's only used
for this program, so it's not under the control of the oil companies, but it's something
that the
oil -- that comes into California is taxed, so it affects -- so the people that use the oil pay
for the program. That -- that's the basis of it, but it would be run by the government. I
see Zackery smiling. I gather you don't want the government to run such a program?
Zackery: I -- I really feel that, um, the government's -- has their little hands in just
about everything out there and they've shown time and time again from education
through homeless to all the problems that they -- they can't solve everything and I don't
think that, uh, this is their jurisdiction. Uh, the Coast Guard could be better suited
keeping drugs off the coastlines and keeping, uh, illegal immigrants and they have their
hands full with so much, I think oil spills can be handled, again, through whether it's the
private sector, whether its, uh -- the government could step in and find when things
happen, uh, but as far as clean-up costs and everything, I don't think that the -- that the
public is at fault. It should be -RM: Let me ask you a question cause -- cause -- Zackery and some others have
raised it. Quite apart about how you feel about the government, um, do you think the
plan would -- and, you know, the cost and so forth -- do you think the plan would work
if it was implemented. That's something I'm interested in. How many of you think the
plan, if the money went into it and if the ships were as I described them, that this could
26
be an effective plan; just to give me an idea.
Chris: ______________ partial. I agree with part of it.
RM: Lynn.
Male: Who controls the ships?
Female: Coast Guard.
RM: Coast Guard would run it.
Female: How effective are the Coast Guard ships with their skimmers when
there's -- how do they -- have they utilized them already? Do they know that's what will
take care -Chris: You can't -(Voices talking over one another .)
RM: You have to ask Chris to -Chris: You can't have an escort ship following every tanker.
RM: Uh-huh.
Chris: It's impossible.
RM: Uh-huh.
Chris: For -- I'll, uh, uh, give you some straight facts. Uh, the Valdese, it costs
$130 million dollars to build. It halls five loads of oil from Valdese that pays for the ship.
Last year, if you looked at the financial report, all the big oil companies made 3- to 4-,
500 percent profit.
RM: Uh-huh.
Chris: The politicians are controlled by big corporations. They do what they say.
Us little people out here, we only have one vote and if the people don't understand this,
and get them clunkheads out of there and change the things the way they're supposed
to be, we're never gonna succeed at anything.
27
RM: Uh-huh. We have a question with skimmers.
Female: Yeah, do they -RM: Could you, uh -Chris: The skimmers are okay if they're -- if the water's not real rough out there
-RM: Yeah. Uh-huh. And could you just explain how a skimmer works? I think
Sandra was -Chris: Well, it mooch it all up and -- and they pulled it in and then they sucked
the top of the water and take all the oil up, and uh, separate it from, uh, the ocean water.
They keep you -- all and the water goes back out to sea.
RM: It's like a conveyor belt and the oil is floating so it sort of picks the oil up and
sticks it into a tank.
Female: So what do you do with choppy water when you can't use the skimmer?
RM: It's harder and that's why -Female: It's there.
Chris: It's there, but you might get some of it, but you ain't gonna get all of it, and
it's so rough out there that that little skimmer boat ain't gonna be able to suck all that oil
up in -RM: Which is why -Chris: The sea's too heavy.
Female: I take my vote back. It doesn't sound right.
(Laughter.)
Doesn't sound like -RM: Could you explain -Female: No.
28
RM: -- what it is about it?
Female: Well, it was just his remark on that little skimmer. All of a sudden, that
huge tanker and that little skimmer -RM: Yeah, actually -Female: Maybe that might not work.
RM: We're talking a little more serious skimmers than -Female: Yes.
RM: -- Chris has, perhaps, had acquaintance with. Okay. Um, Janice, what were
your reasons for voting no?
Janice: Well, I think even one gallon in the ocean is too much. It's -- it's true.
Everything ultimately will affect us as human beings -RM: Yes.
Janice: -- and we must take care of. But that $25.00 two years down the road will
be $50.00. We've seen it all happen before with taxes. I mean, I don't know how much
the State or the Federal government thinks that the American people can pay. I think
the responsibility should be in -- to the corporations.
RM: Uh-huh.
Janice: They're the ones doing the spill. They're the ones making the huge profits
on the oil. I think their yearly profits are probably pretty high. They can certainly build
their own escort modes and man 'em -RM: Uh-huh.
Janice: -- and take care of their own problems.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Janice: I think the responsibility needs to be shifted off the American people all
the time like when --
29
Male: Yeah, but they've proven they can't do that.
Janice: They cannot.
Male: They left it to their -- during the Valdese thing, it was the government that
forced them to clean up Alaska. If they had their way, they would have just left it there.
Janice: Well, then they have to be -- they have to be regulated and under control
better. I mean, they will have to like -- you have ocean a work place, you'll have to have
something that they do that insures as much safety to the ocean as they can. I mean -Male: I agree, but -Janice: They can pay for it and they can do it. They don't want to do it. They'd
rather just tax the America people.
Male: All they care about is profit.
Janice: Exactly.
(Voices over one another.)
Chris: -- money and the politicians go up there -- how many presidents you see
go in the White House broke and they come out multi-millionaires. They didn't get that
money because they look good sittin' in the White House.
Paul: Well, the oil company see -- the owners aren't gonna be working -- work for
$10 or $20.00 and hour either, and that's where your profit goes.
Male: But the oil companies can't police themselves. It's like a fox in the
henhouse.
Paul: Yeah, you got it.
RM: Okay. What I'd like to do now, is to shift to another aspect of this and turn
the group over to Jon who's been sitting there patiently, um, while I've been describing
what I'd be describing, so leave your booklets exactly where they are now, and -- okay.
JK: Thank you, Robert, um, the program that Robert has been telling you about,
30
as you know, is designed to put escort ships out in the water accompanying tankers that
are 25 miles or more off shore. And if you turn back for a moment to the third page of
your handout, to this drawing again. That's mostly these thick -- where the -- the -when the tankers are along these thick lines out here, off shore. However, some oil
spills happen when the tankers are on their way into the ports, which you can see from
the arrows right here.
Chris: What about the big tankers that can't come into port? They gotta off-load
out -JK: Yeah. At the moment, I'm talking about the ones that come -Chris: Okay.
JK: -- actually right into the port.
Chris: But, I mean, you don't showin' that on the map.
JK: Right. Right. Um, instead of putting the program that Robert described to
you on the ballot, the State of California is considering asking Californian's to vote on a
different proposal, to use escort ships to prevent damage from these sorts of oil spills
that happen right by the shore. What I want to do is to tell you about this alternative
program and to ask you to think about it as completely independent and separate from
the program that Robert's been telling you about.
Do you have any questions at this point or any comments you wanna make
before I tell you about the program?
Paul: Uh, just one, uh, on this first thing, we were, I think you guys were trying
to focus our attention on some birds out there, and I was trying to look at the total
picture. The birds are only just a small, little tiny infinitesimal amount of what we're
doing our -- we're screwing our own nest. We're -- we're fowling our own nest and this
is what I was looking at and thinkin' about while you guys were talking about a few
31
birds.
JK: Right.
Paul: Uh, are we supposed to be -- you want me to be a little more focused -where is this -JK: No. You -- you should think however you want to think. We're interested in
how you wanna think about this and in fact, I'll be talking in a moment about a larger
number of species.
Paul: All right.
JK: So you should feel free to -Paul: Okay.
JK: -- be uh -- focus on whatever is, uh -Paul: I didn't want to be about of step with the group here.
JK: No, that's fine.
Paul: Okay.
JK: Any other questions or comments?
Female: You're talking about another issue, another tax, another -JK: Exactly.
Female: -- handle. Okay.
JK: Exactly. So it's a completely different question now.
Chris: Donations 'll be accepted later.
(Laughter.)
JK: Okay. Other comments or should we move ahead? Okay. Now you need to
turn far back into this thing to right after where you voted. There is a very large map
which folds out like this. Right after in your -- where you voted.
Male: There we go.
32
JK: Take a ________ -- take a look at this map which shows the California coast
line.
(End of side one.)
If you look up -- up at the upper part of the map here near San Francisco, you'll
see that the coastline is mostly green there which means that it's mostly coastal marsh
on the shores. And if you look a little bit below that, you'll see that the shoreline
running south from Monterey down to Santa Barbara, is mostly blue, which indicates
that it is mostly rocky shoreline. And the shoreline running south from Santa Barbara
down to San Diego is mostly yellow which indicates that it is mostly sandy beach. When
tankers are on their way into Los Angeles and San Diego, they sometimes have
accidents and spill oil that washes up on the beeches. Some of these spills are small ones
that involve less than 500 gallons of oil and cause no real damage. However, once every
two years, there's a large spill that does significant damages to these beeches.
If you'll turn the page, you'll seen an explanation of the damage. When this sort
of spill happens, it typically covers five miles of beech and kills about 100 birds and
partially oils 300 more birds. The sorts of birds that are harmed in this way are shown
on the next page. This is a new group of birds. These birds include muirs, loons,
crembrants, greeds, brown pelicans and diving sea ducks called surf scoters. And as you
can see from this picture, there are lots of muirs and Pacific loons and relatively few
brown pelicans and surf scoters.
A large oil spill near a sandy beech also typically kills many small creatures that
live near the seashore. And if you turn the page once more, you'll see some of them.
These creatures include crabs, worms, beatles and clams that live in the sand.
When an oil spill happens on a beach of this sort, it recovers relatively quickly because
clean-up crews can scoop up the oiled sand and replace it with fresh sand. It usually
33
takes about six weeks before people can use the beach again, and the small creatures that
live in the sand usually take about three months to reestablish themselves.
All right. I want to pause for a moment and ask: Is there anything that I've told
you so far about this that surprises you or that's unexpected?
Female: This is a large spill?
JK: It's -- it is a large spill, right.
Female: I didn't expect that they came back after it happened that they kept -and came back.
JK: What were you thinking would happen?
Female: I guess I thought they were just wiped out and that was that.
JK: Uh-huh. And that once that particular area was wiped out, that was the end
of that.
Paul: Uh, your reestablishment on this, uh, this is from the area unaffected, the
size of it, it gradually moves in?
Chris: I don't know how they clean the oily sand.
JK: Uh, my understanding is they simply remove it from the area and put it in a
deposit elsewhere.
Chris: Dredge it out?
JK: Right. Just scoop it off the surface, because the oil -- as long as they get there
quickly, the oil doesn't go too deeply.
Chris: So if they had an oil spill a mile long, they would dredge that whole beach
for a mile?
JK: Uh-huh.
Chris: And then put new sand it.
JK: Uh-huh.
34
Chris: And it takes them creatures six weeks to come back to that new sand.
JK:
Yeah.
Well, uh, well, actually it's three months before the creatures
reestablish themselves. Just six weeks till the others are safe knowing -Chris: It's a pretty expensive project.
JK: We'll get to that in a moment actually. Other thoughts? Anything else
surprising? Okay.
Now, the reason that I've given you this information is to get your opinion about
whether the State should spend more money to prevent this sort of oil spill from
happening or whether the State should continue its current program to prevent oil
spills, uh, on sandy beaches at the present cost. And as I mentioned, one of these spills
happens typically every year. Whichever vote is made will stay in effect for the next 10
years, beginning in 1994, and in 2004, the State will again decide to change what it's
doing with regard to sandy beaches.
The plan to prevent these sandy beach oil spills involves having an escort ship, as
Robert has described to you, accompany every tanker and barge when it comes into the
main shipping lanes far off shores and moves into the refineries right on to the shore.
Also, an escort ship would accompany every tanker or barge when it leaves the shore
until it gets out into the main shipping lanes, 25 miles or more at sea. Again, the most
important thing that the escort ships would do is to help prevent oil spills that affect
sandy beaches. They would do this by making sure that oil tankers and barges stay in
the correct sea lanes and do not collide with each other or with anything else in the
water. If a tanker becomes disabled in one of those shipping lanes, the escort ship would
be powerful enough to tow it in order to keep it from running aground or into
something that might damage it. And finally, in case a spill does occur, the escort ships
would quickly put out their floating sea fences to contain the oil and protect the birds
35
and living creatures near the beach. If the escort ships are not used to protect the
beaches, one beach oil spill will usually happen every year killing an average of 100
birds, covering another 300 birds with oil and killing many of the crabs, clams and other
creatures living near the beach. If the escort ships are used to protect the beaches, this
damage will be prevented each year.
Now, this program would be paid for in the same as the program Robert
described to you earlier. That is, an additional tax would be added to purchases of
gasoline in order to cover the cost.
And the state is interested in knowing how
Californians like yourselves would vote if this plan were on the ballot.
So now, if you would, please turn the page and answer the question that you see
there.
Chris: This oil spill that you're talking about right now, is that a large oil spill like
the one they had up in Alaska, or is this just a -- just a large spill that's not that big.
JK: Well, it's -- it's the -- the kind of spill that I describe that would cover five
miles of beach and would affect that number of creatures along there that I -- that I
mentioned. I'm not sure if the Alaska spill was larger or smaller.
Chris: We're talkin' about maybe two, three million gallon of oil black wall.
That's, uh -JK: This would be pretty much of the kind of spills that I described as being out
to sea. But in this case -Chris: Would be -JK: -- they would affect the shore. It'd be much smaller than the Exxon Valdese
spills.
Paul: $15 bucks a house, um, what's the bottom line on that? I mean, how much
money's that? How many households are there in California. How much -- what's the
36
amount they're talking about there?
JK: Actually, the better thing to do on that is to wait just a minute, and we'll -we'll talk about that shortly.
Female: I thought that most of the beaches didn't have very many, um, things left
on 'em anyway along the coast like, I know there's some crabs occasionally, but -JK: Yeah. The -- the sorts of creatures that I described here are fairly common -Female: Are they?
JK: -- on beaches.
Female: On places where no one else swims and stuff? Oh.
JK: And after you've voted, again, if you wouldn't mind, please write down in as
much detail as you could why you decide to vote the way you did.
Chris: You mean one from both programs?
JK: Yeah. Uh, I'd like you to consider them completely separately from one
another. Set the first one aside.
Chris: Cause if you can't get one, you should get the other -(Pause.)
JK: Okay. All set? Great, um, I'd like to ask you a few questions now. The first
one is this: I asked you, um, if you could, to think about this program completely
separately from the one that Robert described to you and consider it on its own. Um,
something we find though, that um, people are tempted to think about it comparison,
find it hard not to think about it in comparison, and so I'm curious about if anyone found
-- found themselves really evaluating this one against the other one? Um, somewhat
actually like Chris mentioned, if we can't have the other one, then we ought to have this
one. Did -- did anybody else find yourself doing comparisons like that? Or were you
able to pretty much leave it by itself. Anybody?
37
Male: I thought of it on its own merits.
JK: Okay.
(Another comment under a cough.)
Female: Well, it's the same in comparison because you're still giving extra money
in taxes to the State to handle for something that basically that won't change, no matter
what the price is or what the procedure is. So it's very parallel in that way, but, um, the
program seem to -- the programs they have now for the sandy beach spills, is it
working? Obviously it's not a bad program, because when you go -- look at beaches, you
don't really notice any abuse to the beaches, right?
Chris: Could I say somethin'? That's cause we've been lucky.
Female: Yeah, but if it's gonna be in a -- a big spill like in Alaska, it's gonna be
outside the capacity of this program anyway, right?
JK: Well, as -- as I mentioned, one of the -- the -- of the certain spills that I
described, one of them happens pretty much every year -Female: Right.
JK: -- and they get cleaned up quickly.
Male: When you mention the beach being closed six weeks, I don't recall in 17
years, the beach being closed six weeks that I've lived here.
Female: What is this going to do for like, uh, a major spill. Um, is a major spill, it's
inevitable that they do happen, and is there anything that could pre- -- that a major spill
-JK: I think these sorts of steps presumably would -- would help to do something
about -Female: Presumably would do something, but -JK: Yeah. Maybe not --
38
Female: 95 or 100 percent.
(Talking over one another.)
JK: Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, certainly a huge one, I would -Female: It would be huge enough -JK: I mean, if -- if it was huge, I mean ______________.
Female: Right.
Paul: Uh, I'm looking at this thing -- uh, I'm in favor of the environment as I -- of
protecting the environment as I stated before, but I'm wondering about, uh -- (loud
beeping watch goes off) -- shut up. I need to see the number here.
Male: Got a oil spill out there.
(Laughter.)
Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, 1603, have to go get that.
JK: Uh, if you -- if you have to deal with that, that's fine.
Paul: Yeah. I -- I may have to, I'm gonna have to go and deal with it, but I kind
of figure I got a loose call on here cause someone gave me a personal number.
JK: Well, why don't we go ahead, then. Uh, let me get a sense at this point of
how many people voted in favor of this program. One, two, three. And everybody else
voted against? Okay. Good -- so let -- why don't we start with the folks who voted
against, um, and let me just ask you -Female: Um, I voted against, because I've never seen any oil spills on the beach,
and if they already have a program, just work with the program they have.
(Voices talking over one another.)
-- never seen it closed for six weeks, so ______________ beaches then. It's not
always clean, but it doesn't have oil in it.
JK: Right. So were you -- were you thinking that the current program works
39
actually pretty well, or that these spills when they happen get cleaned up so quickly that
no one -Female: Uh, apparently gets cleaned up so quickly that no one even notices.
JK: Uh-huh.
Female: So they should just work with the program that they have instead of
________________
(Soft-spoken.)
JK: Uh-huh.
Female: _________________________________.
JK: And, uh, were you thinking about the co- -- the fact that the various creatures
living on the beach were killed -- would be killed and would rejuvenate after a period.
Female: Well, they come back. Uh, and keep breeding and they come back, so -(Someone sneezing.)
JK: Bless you.
Female: Thank you.
Female: -- don't they just stay with the program that they have.
JK: Right. Okay. James?
James: I'm, uh, started thinking also how you were sayin' some of these shipping
lanes and some of this oil's going out of the country, and um, it started dawning on me
that maybe some of the responsibility should be paid by someone other than the State
of California, if the cause of some of the oils spills may be from export to other countries,
maybe some of that oil goes to Arizona or Nevada, or you know, but why should the
Californians have to pay for the whole bill, and uh, then again, I'm still also very much
for, uh, you know, keeping the beaches clean and everything, but I'm just real against
new taxes, you know, in 10 years or whatever, they'll forget to knock the 15 back off
40
again, and you know, even though it seems like there's a good plan there to appropriate
that money just for that and maybe control it, and just maybe the State of California
shouldn't have to foot the whole bill.
JK: Uh-huh. And it was mentioned that you were thinking about ot- -- the oil
going to other countries and maybe other states -James: Yeah.
JK: Were you thinking about that at the time that you voted, or is that something
you started thinking -James: No, no. Just -- that's, um, I didn't think of that on the last vote, but then
I started thinkin' about how, um, when you're sent coming into the beaches and it
started dawning on me that they were sayin' that some of those lines were goin' out and
maybe some of this oil's goin' to other places other than California. They're using our
coast as a freeway here. Why should Californian's pay for all the clean-up, you know,
and then maybe, without enough information, maybe I'm wrong there, I don't know,
but -JK: Okay. Um, who else voted against. Lynn?
Female: I just think we should reestablish priorities in the current program to
accomplish the goals as stated.
JK: So you felt there was a need to change the current program?
Female: I think reestablishing priorities, perhaps, uh, may, uh, help certain areas
that are troublesome if, uh, new funding's not available, a program can always be
shaken up and reassessed, and -JK: So were you thinkin' there were some kinds of oil spills that maybe don't
need as much prevention as the beach oil spills and that you were thinking about
redirecting some of the efforts to -- away from certain other things in order to --
41
Female: No, I -JK: -- pay for it?
Female: -- wasn't putting any thought in the actual reestablishment of priorities,
but uh, if -- if -- if it's as necessary as you say, and if, uh, funding would not be available,
I would think that they could, uh, create what they needed to from the stuff they have.
JK: Uh-huh. Okay.
Male: Again, instead of having these escorts, uh, beings they're so close to the
coast, if there were an accident, um, that there should be a quicker response toward
these, uh, uh, accidents. I'm sure that they could obviously ________ um, these from
happen. And when they do happen, have a quick response and -- and again, plan ready
for a story sea, calm sea, and these people would know exactly what's going to happen,
uh, before it happens, and then how they're gonna react to it before it happens also. Uh,
if there were a large-scale spill, uh, there is other possibilities, um, I know myself or
anyone could do, uh, a volunteer program for
the -- the beach part obviously, you can't go out there an skim the ocean, but uh,
cleaning up the beaches, uh, bagging rot, picking up, uh, animals that may have washed
up or anything along those lines which I've done up in Long Beach and, uh, even the
mountains. Uh, those programs I'm for as a volunteer, uh, that's the way I'd pay for it
myself, rather than actual money coming out of my pocket. That's a more direct way to
go about it. And again, also, you can create more jobs for even a -- a private sector being
off the coast. Again, I -- I think when we have gotten like, been brought up here a
couple times that in one series of $15.00, well that's not adequate, how 'bout if we raise
it a little more. It's not gonna be wiped out or cut. That's for sure.
JK: Okay.
Female: I don't have too much to add to what -- what he said. And then again,
42
there's always, I still don't know where you come up with these figures, but it seems
like, you know, any time, the government takes over anything, the administration costs
alone run just so high just -- it gets really messed up. I mean, don't we find -- maybe I'm
dumb -- don't we fine these oil companies when they have a spill?
JK: Uh-huh.
Female: Doesn't that take care of anything?
Male: That raises our tax on our gas -Female: They raise our gas price. That's what -- hey, they're gonna raise it
anyhow.
Female: Yeah.
Female: They're gonna raise it anyhow, and our -- us -- start taxing it and then
they're gonna raise it again too. What if they raise it again after you've taxed it?
JK: You know, they do pay for part of the clean-up costs, they don't prevent the
spills the way the ____________ program would.
Male: Uh-huh.
Male: Well -Male: Well, then that's why the government should step in and say -Male: Hey, you've gotta prevent 'em, right.
Male: -- you're not gonna raise prices to clean this up. And that's where the
government could do something.
Chris: Well, you got these politicians run for election, they get their money from
the big corporations -Male: Sure.
Chris: -- to get elected. You think they're gonna do anything against these big oil
companies?
43
Female: No.
Male: Huh-uh.
Chris: That's what I'm tellin' ya. They'll solve anything as long as we sel- -- let
them get away with crap like that.
Male: It's a problem isn't it?
Male: Take a look at the fortune five hundred and the oil companies that are
rebuilding _______________. Their profits are being turned. Perhaps they can use some
of those profits and uh, for better technology, uh, like I said before the government has
to regulate and tell them to do it. I think it would be uh -- I think it would be beneficial
to them if they were to have one or two major spills, and that could be -Chris: You know -Male: -- better for, uh, even, uh, a public __________ child myself, I still have
boycotted Exxon since that accident. I think if there -- if they were to step in after their
accident and jump up and clean it out, uh, there would be no reason to take that stand,
but they have a way for the government, uh, and uh, I don't think they still even
_____________ (someone coughing) -- standards that were set before, so, I think it would
be better for public ____________ if they, uh, and it'd be a better way to go about it.
JK: Janice, you mentioned earlier that you -- you saw this as similar somewhat to
the earlier one -Janice: Uh-huh.
JK: -- in the sense that uh -Janice: I did basically. In drafting these, who draft -- who drafts these bills. Who
thought of this type of bill to -JK: A combination of a variety of different people.
Janice: Why can't they draft something and make the oil companies responsible?
44
Why don't we ever see any bills like that? The only bills we see are the ones that raise
our taxes.
JK: So that was an important consideration for you?
Janice: Of course, and like I said, I -- I am concerned that -- that the environment
is being polluted, um, -- like I said -- I'm sorry, did you answer my question, if there was
a major oil -- oil spill, this type of bill will prevent that more so?
JK: It -- it would certainly help to -Janice: It would help.
JK: -- prevent it, but if it was a huge spill, I mean -Janice: It's gonna be inevitable because that -- those are the ones that you -- really
are devastating. That -- those take years and years and years, and so they need to really
focus on those also and take care of those, but I don't know. That's just my feeling.
JK: Okay. That's helpful. Paul, you voted against in this case?
Paul: No, I -- I put down a -- a vote for it, but uh, uh, in -- in thinking uh, in
looking this thing in the black -- black or white, uh, where you're talking about the uh,
escort vessels escorting every tanker, uh, I'm looking at this thing from a standpoint of,
uh, maybe uh, a fleet of escort vessels stationed along the way that, uh, they wouldn't be
following every tanker, but they'd be in the -- in the area if was a -- a -- a spill, they could
respond and do something about it at uh, a lot less cost, than chugging along behind
every tanker -JK: Uh-huh.
Paul: But, uh, yeah. I think something should be -- you know, there should be
some um, method that uh, they could contain or -JK: Uh-huh.
Paul: -- uh, you know, reduce the destruction to uh, to the environment itself.
45
And
uh -JK: If it -- if it were to turn out that the escort ships would still be so far away
from the ships most of the time that it would take them quite a few minutes to get to
them and a lot of oil would spill -Paul: Uh, yeah, but then could -- uh, they would, you know, in route, and then
they could uh, go to work and start containing -JK: Right.
Paul: Cause they run these -- these sweepers with these booms and they can -truly, I mean if there's a typhoon at sea, you're not gonna be able to do a thing about it,
but if -- if the sea is relatively calm, uh -- I spent a lot of time out at sea in the Navy, and
it's uh, it's not always that rough. I mean, your -- your conditions are either impossible
or ideal or and then there's a lot of stages in between.
JK: Uh-huh. So you voted "yes" for this program, but you were thinking about -Paul: Yeah, a -- a reduced, uh -- reduced, thing whereas, you know, he pointed
out the practicality of -- of having a -- an escort vessel with every tanker -- uh, is, you
know, I think a little bit -- uh, maybe, but if these are -- if these lanes are there and they
have ships uh, uh, stationed, out in the area where these tankers are coming by, then
they could, uh, respond, or if you got radios or other things, uh, they got aircraft, that,
uh, hey, we've got a spill out here, then -JK: Okay.
Paul: Like flies to horse stuff. You know. They -- they appear.
JK: Right. I'm curious -- if -- so if you are thinking about that as being maybe
even a preferable alternative, uh, what led you to vote "yes" for this program?
Paul: Well, I'm still, uh, on the environmental issue of this that, uh, uh, we've
46
gotta do something and -- and it's not just the oil, it's -- it's -- it's a lot of things, and uh,
anything that we can do to, uh, let's get started doing something.
JK: Uh-huh.
Paul: Instead of just sitting back, and uh, all of a sudden there's a 100 thousand
barrels of oil comin' ashore, and uh, you know, what are gonna do now?
Chris: You know what amazes me -- _________________. This program costs $15
bucks a year to protect our coastline, our beaches, our birds. Yet we've got a government
up there that sets up there and give billions and billions of dollars to every damn
country there is and we set here and let them do it and we're worried about spendin' $15
bucks to take care of our own shorelines.
JK: But did -- did -- but you voted for it actually?
Chris: Yeah.
JK: And what were -- what was the -Chris: I voted for both programs.
JK: Uh-huh.
Chris: Can't have the one, you gotta have something goin'.
JK: Uh-huh.
Chris: What if you had an earthquake and them oil wells out there erupted and
bust a pipeline, you got all this oil just pumping up on the beach. Who's gonna clean it
up?
JK: Uh-huh.
Chris: You gotta have some kind of program ready?
JK: Uh-huh. Did this program seem sensible to you like it would -- like it would
effectively protect the beaches?
Chris: All except that uh, these little boats following each oil tanker, I don't think
47
that's possible.
JK: Oh really? Because?
Chris: There's too many tankers.
JK: Uh-huh.
Chris: What are you gonna do about the foreign tankers?
JK: Well, it'd be treated just like all the others.
Chris: See?
JK: Yeah.
Chris: You gonna make them pay somethin'?
Female: And what would the Coast Guard's responsibility be again?
JK: Well, the Coast Guard would run these escort ships.
Female: Oh, so maintain them.
JK: Well -- yeah, well, it -- it would staff them, train the staff, make sure the boats
are working properly and pay -- pay the costs of running them.
Male: The State of California -JK: State of California.
Male:
-- would pay the Coast Guard and the Foreign tankers and pay for
everybody's.
JK: Right. To protect it's beaches.
Male: Yeah.
JK: That seams.
Chris: I think the big oil companies and the government ought to get together,
set up a program where they have double hulls, like I said, put double pipes going
through them
tanks --
48
JK: Uh-huh.
Chris: That's the first step. After that, the oil companies and them, they could set
up an insurance policy where they'd pay into this thing that if they have a major oil spill,
that money 'll be there for cleaning that up. There's a lot of things they could do besides
just this.
JK:
Uh-huh. So you.
Chris: But you gotta have something.
JK: Right so you -- you thought this as worthwhile in addition to those other
things.
Chris: Sure.
JK: I see. Okay. Somebody else voted "yes."
Male: Well, um, I -- I vote for anything that'll prevent the oil from getting to
shore. It's very -- you might think it's real easy to clean up a sandy beach, but what about
the tide pools at La Jolla or the place at Ocean Beach? I -- I've been through there just
this summer and there are globs of oil that have been there for years. And who comes
in and cleans that up? Nobody. And everybody's crying about their pocketbook. Well,
we're dead and gone in ashes, that oil's still gonna be there, no matter what. And we
better do something now and clean it up or it's gonna be there for our kids and our
grand kids.
JK: Uh-huh.
Male: And the government can make 'em do it. The government forced the auto
companies to air bags in their cars. They fought it tooth and nail. Then when they
finally started doing it, all a sudden they couldn't do it fast enough. Everybody got on
the bandwagon. It's such a wonderful thing now.
JK: So --
49
Male: So you can fo- -- turn it around. In fact, they say the, uh, the business of the
future is environmental clean up. That's gonna be the new waive. That's what's gonna
-- everybody jump -- just like air bags, eventually they're gonna turn it around -hopefully, and everybody 'll jump on the bandwagon, and they can't get the clean up -clean it up fast enough.
JK: So were you looking at the prevention program as -- as something to do in
the meantime until -Male: Yeah. The main thing to keep it from getting to shore. I don't care what it
costs.
JK: And you actually had voted against the -- the earlier program?
Male: No. I voted for both of 'em.
JK: Oh, you voted for both.
Male: Yeah.
JK: Okay, but getting to shore in particular was a priority for you.
Male: Yeah.
JK: Okay.
Male: Just walk along the cove -- or the tide pools at La Jolla, and there are globs
of oil in those little niches where crabs and other sea life live that have to put up with
that and it's not going away. It's still there.
JK: Yeah. Okay. Were there -- was there anything else about the program that
was appealing to you?
Male: That's about it.
JK: That was it? Okay. Uh, Karen, you voted for it?
Karen: Yeah, uh, actually, I just -- I got kind of positive about the whole thing -JK: Uh-huh.
50
Karen: -- and after listening to what um, he was saying, it's just, um, it's just good
to be positive about it and try to live toward it and do what they can and we can and
whoever can to, uh, preserve nature and the beauty.
JK: So you had been negative to start with and -Karen: Well, yeah, but um -JK: Do you remember when -- what -- at what point you started to get positive
about it? What might have gotten you thinking in a more positive direction?
Karen: No.
JK: Just sort of like a wave.
Karen: Yeah, just sort of ______________ -JK: Okay. Zackery?
Zackery: Yeah, uh, now instead of raising um, taxes in that manner, I -- I -- I
could see -- I wouldn't mind spending money if they were to -- I believe they were
going to start mandating these cars instead of running on gas and oil to start electric
power or solar power or some other sources that way, uh, this way, they'll be less of a
demand for the oil and the heating homes with solar, especially here in Southern
California. There are some many other ways that we can power, uh, ourselves, and
bring less oil through these channels, which would mean less spills which would mean
less clean-up. Uh, solar power's very clean and also, the accidents that happen through
nuclear power is basically nil compared to all these millions and millions of accidents
that happen.
Male: Natural gas and a lot of other alternative fuels, oh, yeah.
(Voices talking over one another.)
-- but the oil companies are fighting that tooth and nail.
Male: Well, that's cause they got -- yeah --
51
Male: They've got a vested interest.
Male: The way they're pumping it out of the ground now, they say by the year
2070, it'll be all gone anyway.
(Voices talking over one another.)
Male: -- you gonna care or am I?
Male: No. But -Male: But somebody 'll be around to care, hopefully, yeah.
Male: -- eat up every drop until they -Male: That's what I'm sayin' -- we're not really thinkin' by spending $15.00 now
with all this clean up, we're not really thinkin' about the future, uh, even though -Male: But we're puttin' up with the damage.
Male: Sure, well let's stop doin' the damage, let's stop using the oil and let's start
using what's out there and plentiful. Uh, you can never use up the sun and there's so
much -Male: I agree, but as long as they keep using oil, you better find a way to clean it
up.
Zackery: I think if we redirect our interests in the way we go about using our
power, like I've said, car sharing, or I don't even use a car basically. Today I rode my bike
over to here, so you -- I live six miles away, and uh, it's just the way I go about -JK:
So, were you thinking actually that voting no on this program might
encourage the movement towards solar power and other sorts of things or was that not
really a connection you were thinkin' about?
Zackery: Well, I -- that's my own feeling before I voted. I, uh, voted just because
of taxes being raised, uh, came up which is basically already being handled. If it
happened on the beach, I think there's enough people that live on the beach that would
52
be concerned and would help volunteer. I think that volunteer groups are, you know,
a wonderful way to get the community together, even through -- you've seen it through
the fires like when the community gets together it builds good relations between the
people also. I mean. It's unfortunate that, uh, it takes a catastrophe like an oil spill or a
flood or anything to bring community together, but it happens, but we're all here, and
we're gonna -- my concerns for the environment are probably as strong as anyone's here,
but I think there's definitely better ways -Chris: There's ways of preventing that just like all that Malibu fires and that, you
know, they could have prevented all of that too.
Male: Sure.
RM: Jon, could I ask a question?
JK: Absolutely.
RM: I was curious that none of those who voted "no," I don't think mentioned
how few birds would be protected by preventing a spill on a beach. Um, did -- wasn't
that a consideration for you?
Lynn: Yes. It's only a hundred or around there -- yes.
RM: Right. This would be 100 birds versus 5,000 birds in the other plane.
Lynn: Yeah.
RM: I was just wondering if anyone else besides Lynn paid attention to that.
Chris: What are we gonna do? Wait till they get down to 300 birds and they'll say
well we better start doing something?
JK: Well, another way of looking at it, is, would there be circumstances where,
um, the effect of a spill like that would be of sufficient magnitude for those of you who
voted "no" would think about, uh, voting "yes?"
Female: I think if the numbers of the birds killed were a lot higher. And it really
53
devastated their population and -- and it really had an impact, but from what you -when you talked before, it doesn't sound like the impact is very great on their
population.
JK: Uh-huh. Actually, let me ask you, there are a lot -- obviously thousands of
birds were killed in the off-shore oil spills that Robert talked about earlier, and you
voted against that plan as well -Female: Right.
JK: Were you thinking like a lot more than that even or -Female: Yeah. I -- I may be wrong, but thousands, what was it, 5,000 that you
said yearly -JK: Yes.
Female: That doesn't sound like a real -- I mean -- it -- it's sad -- it's sad in itself,
but it doesn't sound like a really high population to really have a large impact upon their
continuation of the species. I mean, if it did, yeah, but if it doesn't make a big impact.
JK: Okay.
Paul: Uh, on the, uh, big issue here, again looking at a -- a -- another part of the
picture, if these birds are dispersed over a wide area and you have an oil spill here, uh,
then you've got, uh, these birds, others are gonna come in and -- and breed, what not,
and -- and the population will come back, but if --if oil spills happen in particular areas,
you can, you know, especially if -- if a species is peculiar to an area, one oil spill would
weaken a population severely, a second one hitting, uh, six months or a year later, and
you don't have a population anymore.
JK: So that was something you were thinking of.
Paul: That's what I'm thinking if is, uh, back to back, you're thinking, oh, well,
we'll leave 'em alone for 10 years they'll come back, these no guarantee you're gonna be
54
leavin' 'em alone.
Chris: That could happen very easily.
Paul: Oh, yeah. Backs -- back to backs or even triples, you know, and (snaps
finger), that's it, especially if it's a localized population.
Chris: Some of these old tankers out there for- -- foreign ships, they don't even
deserve ev- -- be even out there. They're creaky old thinks. You ever took a look at 'em,
you know what I's talkin' about.
JK: Let me ask the folks who voted "no," to think about this question: Uh, what
-- Robert asked you if anything was different, might you consider voting "yes." What if
the price was only $5.00 to your household every year. Would any of the folks who
voted "no" change your mind?
James: Nope. Not me.
Female: No. It's not a matter of price. It's -- it's -James: I still wanna know what the total amount is. I mean, that's a slippery way
of getting me to go only $5 bucks a year and then uh, what about this other problem.
We need $10 bucks here, I need $20 bucks here, but what's $5 bucks or $15 bucks
multiplied by every household in California. How much money is that?
Female: Can you tell us now how many households there are?
James: ________________ -- million.
JK: Actually, I don't know.
James: You know, I mean, that's a lot of money to hand over to who? The
question I don't think anyone here is not concerned with safety with our environment
or our birds or anything. The question is: Should we -- we hand the state or somebody
here that much money and I just, honestly don't trust the system that much. There's
other alternatives. You know, there's not enough information here for me to say, yep
55
here's another $15 bucks. You know, I mean, this just keeps happening and happening
and happening. And there's not gonna be any pay check left, you know.
JK: So even if it was -- I mean -James: I'm all for keeping the coast clean and protecting the birds and the gnat
catchers and the owls, but I mean, there's only so much money, and then, __________
here this says, expanding this oil program $15 bucks, I'm just to the point where I'm
sayin' no to anything like this. I think somethin's gotta change in the system.
Chris: You know what that is -James: _____________
Chris: Float them suckers out, and put people in there that's gonna do the right
thing. Then you can say. I'll agree with you 100 percent that -- because we waste so
much money in that co- -- in our country the government up there spends money like
they have an open book. We just keep payin'.
Male: Well you look at um, the productivity of Los Angeles and how many
people live in there and if they did have a good public transportation system, the cut
down cost of oil -(Voices talking over one another.)
-- for California would be so dramatic and here in San Diego, it still takes me so
long to go from one side of the city to another -Female: Uh-huh.
Male: Sometimes two hours, it's really close, but this all do it, and I think if it was
more efficient that a lot more people would start looking at alternatives like that, uh,
cutting down California's cost, cutting down the traffic out there and the need for raise
like that.
Male: Well, I drive a San Diego Trolley and they're voting right now to cut
56
service to the bus and the tra- --trolley lines.
Male: Yeah. That's what I -Male: They can't seem to find $3 million dollars extra to run the thing and they're
-- they're robbing -- the State of California's robbing the transportation fund to pay
down their budget. Yes, I'm worried about pollution and all of this, and the trolley is
basically pollution-free and they're gonna try and cut it.
Chris: It's crazy ain't it?
Male: -- special interest groups.
Male: They don't wanna build new lines because all the nindes out there that
don't want it in their back yard and then it benefits everybody.
JK: And -- and, uh, despite that, you were prepared to spend some money on
this program?
Male: Damn right.
Chris: See how much money they spend on highways?
Male: Yeah.
Chris: A lot a bucks. A lot a -- a lot a contractors getting filthy rich over it.
JK: Janice mentioned that if the number of birds killed was a lot higher than
what we said, that that might lead her to think about possibly voting for it. Was there
anybody who felt like if there was a lot more damage or even some more damage to
wildlife that they would consider?
Male: Well, they almost drilled the bald eagle to extinction until they banned
DDT. How far does it have to go? How much is enough?
JK: Any -- any -Male: Who draws the line? Who are we to make that decision? I think man is
a very poor, uh, procurator for the planet Earth. I really do.
57
Female: That's what I said.
(Voices all at once.)
Male: We could get into a real discussion on that subject.
Male: Why is it only tankers get in these accidents? You don't hear about
container ship full of Toyotas getting hit and sending them all to the bottom. You never
hear about that. It's only tankers that get in these accidents. Why is that?
JK: Good question.
Male: They'd make ________ news.
Chris: Those container ships, they have accidents too, but they don't -- they don't
carry -- they're not 60 feet under water carrying nothing but a well.
Male: Yeah.
Chris: So that's the difference.
Male: But those run in to each other. That's the -- that's the -Chris: I was on two ships, two freighters that hit each other, and I know, they
spilt -- one of 'em spilled a little bit of oil, but the other tanks, you know, they didn't
crack or bust open, so we were lucky there, but tore the whole bow off a one ship.
JK: Probably it's to the point where we're very grateful to you for coming out and
answering our various questions and sitting through the experiences. There's, uh, two
pages of background questions, uh, it'd be very helpful for us to have you answer. Um,
everything that you've said tonight is anonymous. We don't want you to put your name
on the questionnaire. Um, we're just interested in background information and your
opinions that you've been giving us in various ways.
(Pause.)
You know when you're finished, if you could just pass up your booklet and feel
free to step outside and free to see the person out there and she'll give you --
58
Chris: I don't know if we accomplished anything, but it was a good conversation.
(Voices over one another.)
RM: Sure. Is it spelled correctly?
Sondra: No, it's not spelled correctly.
RM: How is it spelled?
Sondra: S-o-n-d-r-a.
Female: Now are you gonna tell us -RM: Okay. Thank you very much.
Female: -- were you for or against?
JK: Were we for or against? We're neither. We're just trying to find out how
people feel about it.
Female: Okay.
Female: Remain neutral, huh? Nothing -(Voices talking over one another.)
RM: Thank you.
(Voices talking over one another.)
END OF TAPE.
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