SAN MATEO FOCUS GROUP
November 8, 1993
Moderator: Robert Mitchell
RM: -- why don't you move around and ________ sit there.
Female: -- sit boy girl, boy girl-RM: Uh, why don't you sit here, and -Female: At the very head -RM: And you sit here.
Female: Oh, she's sitting there, I see. Okay.
RM: That -- that's fine. Good enough.
Female: Okay.
Female: Don't sit at that head, though. Yeah, don't sit where Robert sits. Robert
has to sit -- where Robert -- that is Robert. Okay.
RM: Thanks very much.
Female: Okay.
RM: Well, thanks very much for coming out on a balmy evening here in
California. My name is Robert Mitchell. Help yourself, if you wish, to coffee or other
drinks. Maybe we could just pause now if someone wants to grab something. No?
Ah-ha ____________.
All right. How many of you have ever participated in a focus group before?
Nope? Good. Cause you weren't supposed to. We'll -- I'll be conducting a group tonight
that will, being with me presenting you with information and asking you a series of
questions. This is, um, part of a study that I'm conducting for the State of California.
The purpose of the study will be very clear once I begin to give you information. I'd like
you to hold your questions and comments until after we finish going through the
information. Then we'll have a chance for discussion.
It is important for you to understand that any of the questions that I ask -- for any
of these questions, there are no right or wrong answers. I'm simply interested in what
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you feel about these issues. I'll be giving you a packet, uh, like this, and it's important
that you do not turn the page until I ask you to cause I want you to -- I want everybody
to go through the sequence of things in this packet in the same way. So when we get to
a certain point, if you'll just hold there until I ask you to turn the page, I'd appreciate it.
Let me distribute the packets. Don't turn the page, and we can begin.
I'd appreciate if you'd turn your name tags so I can see your names. I know it's a
little hard here by the goodies, but, uh, that'd be helpful. All right.
(Comment made by female. Unable to hear.)
All right. Very good. Everyone's got a pencil and there's some extras down there
in case we have a breakdown of some sort. So, what I'd like you to do is begin by turning
to the first page in the handout, read the question and then answer the six items, um, at
your own speed.
I'll read the question also, but um, just circle the number that
represents, uh, the answer that's appropriate for yourself and then don't turn the page.
The State of California spends money on many programs for many different
purposes. The following is a list of some of these programs. And for each one I'd like
you to circle the number one, if you think the money the State is spending on this
program should be reduced a great deal; circle two, if reduced somewhat; three, it stay
the same; four, if reduced -- if increased somewhat; or circle five if you think the money
the State spends on the program should be increased a great deal.
(Pause.)
Take your time and then when you're finished, please don't turn the page. If any
of you have glasses that would help you read like I have that aren't here but are with
you, since we'll be looking at a number of things, feel free to get them out -- grab them
at this point. Sometimes people think they look better without glasses or are reluctant
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to put them on. Those of you with glasses look great.
Okay. I'll now begin to present you with some material. I'd appreciate it if you'd
give me your attention. The programs we've talked about are just a few of the State's
programs. Proposals are often made to the State to improve current programs. Because
of the State's budget problems, the State does not want to do this unless taxpayers are
willing to pay what this would cost. One way for the State to find out about this is to
interview people like you about particular proposals. In interviews of this kind, some
people think the program they are asked about is not needed. Others think it is. We
want to get the opinions of both kinds of people.
Now, I'd like you to turn the
page. You'll find a blank page, page two. Please write the answer to the following
question anywhere, toward the top of page two. And the questions is: Have you ever
been asked to give your opinion about a specific program like this before? Have you
ever been asked to give your opinion about a specific program like this before? Yes or
no?
In this particular interview, we will be focusing on the State's oil spill prevention
program. First I'll give you some background information about the State's current oil
spill prevention program, then I will describe a proposal to change it, what this proposal
would do and give you the opportunity to say whether or not you think the change is
one you would support. I will also ask you to tell me why you feel the way you do.
Last year, tankers and barges carrying oil made about -- about 3,000 trips along
the California coast to bring oil to refineries and storage facilities on shore.
If you'd turn the page to page, uh, three, you'll see a map which shows where
these ships go. The thicker the line, the greater number of trips that take place along
that route. The thickest lines here shows where tankers bring oil down to California.
About half the tankers go into the San Francisco Bay area. The other half go to the
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Greater Los Angeles area. The other lines show where tankers and barges carry oil to
and from foreign countries and along other parts of the California coast.
Okay, at this point, I'd like you to verbalize if you have any questions about this
map. ________.
Female: Presumably it's from Alaska.
RM: Uh, a lot of it is, yes. Is the map reasonably clear?
(Voices saying "Uh-huh.")
RM: All right. Let's, uh, leave the packet up to that point.
The State requires every shipper of oil to meet certain requirements that are
designed to reduce the number of oil spills. Their ships and crews have to meet various
standards. They have to carry special nav- -- navigational equipment such as radar.
They can only use special sea lanes. They also have to have an approved contingency
plan that they follow if they have an accident and spill any oil. At present, this plan
requires them to be able to respond to an accident, um, with equipment and clean-up
crews, uh, within 12 hours of the accident occurring. Of course, if the spill does happen,
oil companies must pay the costs of cleaning it up. These State requirements are among
the strictest in the country. They increase the cost of -- to the oil companies of doing
business in the State. Consumers such as your household ultimately pay for this in
higher oil and gas prices. Your household also pays something in your state taxes to
cover the government's cost in inspecting and licensing oil tankers and to develop
contingency plans to handle oil spill emergencies.
Now I'd like you to turn back to page two and answer another question. Two is
a blank page. And the question is: Before this interview, were you aware that your
household currently pays something in higher prices in taxes to help present -- prevent
oil spills? Yes or no or not sure. Were you aware that your household currently pays
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something in higher prices in taxes to help prevent oil spills? Okay.
Every spill that happens in California waters has to be reported to the State no
matter how small. State records show that each year, there are many small spills and on
average, one or two larger ones. The small spills involve relatively few gallons of oil
which spill in the normal course of tanker and barge operations such as when they
unload their oil. The average smaller spill is less than 500 gallons. Many of them are
much less than 500 gallons. Each of these spills causes little, if any, harm to wildlife or
the coast because they are small and can easily be kept from spreading beyond the place
where they occur.
However, the overall harm from all these small spills can be
significant because there are so many of these spills each year. The larger spills happen
infrequently; about once or twice a year. They involve 5,000 to 100,000 gallons of oil that
spills into the water or on land. You may not remember hearing or reading about some
of these spills because, although they do harm wildlife, they get much less publicity
than huge spills such as the Alaskan oil spill that happened a few years ago. Most of the
larger spills are caused by human error or equipment failures. Tankers or barges run
aground or into other things such as ships, pipes or hoses break, or the ship's engine or
steering mechanism breaks down. Although there would be even more of these spills
without the present oil spill prevention program, the accidents that cause these larger
spills are hard to prevent.
Now if you'd look again at page three, uh, the map.
A study of the larger spills that have occurred in the past shows that most of them
happen in three areas along the coast. The first is the Greater Los Angeles area where
tankers go to and from refineries and the places shown on the map. Oil products from
the -- this concentration of refineries go to every part of the State. Another area is San
Francisco Bay where tankers carry oil to and from refineries located in the bay and the
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third area is this area located along the Central Coast where the tankers are going back
and forth, out at sea and also closer to the shore. The harm caused by these larger oil
spills depends on what type of shoreline is affected. Along the California Coast, there
are three basic types of shoreline which you may or may not uh, have seen personally.
These are sandy beaches, rocky shoreline and salt water marsh.
I'd like you to go back to page two and tell me which of these three you
personally have, uh, have seen. Uh, marshes, rocky shoreline, sandy beaches. If you've
seen all three, just say all three. Marshes, rocky shoreline, sandy beaches or all three or
less -- less than two or one if you have seen -When you're finished with that, turn to the next page which is a fold-out map.
It's the one marked page four. Okay.
You can see the key to the map at the bottom. The areas marked in the grey or
bluish color along the shore are areas that are mostly rocky shoreline and there's a
picture of a rocky shoreline there just to give you an idea of what they look like. The
yellow areas represent sandy beaches and the green areas mark the locations of salt
water marshes. These marshes are located along the coast where rivers run into the sea.
They're also found in salt water bays such as San Francisco Bay. This is why there's that
large green area around San Francisco. Do you see any ways in which this map might
be improved to make things clearer or ways -- or aspects of it that you might find
confusing at all?
Male: Pretty clear.
Female: You could always use purple or something if you wanted it to stand out.
RM: I see. Which color is, uh -- doesn't stand out as much as the others?
Female: Rocky shores.
RM: The grey color. Uh-huh.
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Female: But it looks pretty.
RM: All right.
Female: I think this is easier on the eyes this way.
RM: With the grey?
Female: With the grey.
Female: It might be too conflicting with the bright color.
RM: The purple might be a bit strong, huh?
Female: Especially with your greens.
RM: Yes. That's true. With, like, Dorothy's blouse. That would wake people up.
All right. Then you can leave that map open and I'll continue to give you some more
information.
As I mentioned, it is very hard to prevent these larger spills because there is such
a large number of tankers and so many things can go wrong.
(Tape blanked out a little.) (Checked both.)
-- have affected each of these three types of shoreline, but because the State's
coastline is so long, almost a thousand miles, no particular part of the coast has ever been
affected more than once. In the next 10 years, if no further steps are taken in oil
pollution control, other places along the shoreline will be affected by larger spills. After
10 years, around the year 2005, all tankers in the United States will be required by law to
have double hulls. This and some other features will reduce the number of oils spills of
these larger types that occur greatly. Now the question is whether the State should do
anything about -(Tape blanked out.)
-- until the year 2005 when these other improvements come in. Some people
have proposed a plan to do this. The State has promised to consider the plan. As I
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mentioned, the State does not want to undertake any new programs unless taxpayers
are willing to pay what they would cost. Here's how the plan would work: It would
begin operation at the end of next year and would continue for 10 years, that is, until the
double hull tankers and other improvements take place. It would prevent some of the
larger spills that affect one type of shoreline and its wildlife. The type of shoreline that
it would protect are sandy beach in the Greater Los Angeles area. The reason why this
type of shoreline was chosen was because the Greater Los Angeles area has the largest
number of oil refineries that serve the entire State. Also, there is a special risk there
because the oil has to be off -- unloaded off shore and carried by smaller vessels to
on-shore terminals. A quick response station would be established at a central location
on the coast in that area. The station would be run by the Coast Guard and paid for by
a special tax of each barrel of oil that is imported into California. It would be equipped
with oil containment and clean-up equipment and personnel trained to use it. The
station would have several helicopters to use and a small fleet of vast oil spill response
ships for its work. The response ships are strong, specially built ships that carry extra oil
spill containment equipment and trained crews. They're rather like sea-going tugs in
that they have very large powerful engines. The most important thing the station
would do is to help prevent spills in the waters in that area. It would do this by
monitoring all oil transportation by radar, making sure the oil tankers and barges stay in
the correct sea lanes and obey the various shipping regulations.
When weather
conditions are dangerous, the response ships would escort tankers to and from the
places where they unload the oil and stand by in case of trouble. If a tanker became
disabled, the oil response ship would be powerful enough to tow the tanker to keep it
from running aground or into something else that might damage it, causing it to spill
oil. The other thing the Coast Guard ships would do is to take quick action in case a spill
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does occur to protect birds and shoreline habitats from harm. Instead of a 12-hour
response time, which is the current situation, they would be able to respond within two
hours or less.
Please look at the next sheet in your packet which shows, um, the way that these
response ships would take action if a spill does occur. The escort -- the ship's crew
would quickly circle the spill with a floating sea fence called a boom that would keep
the oil from spreading. Then they would use a skimmer shown here, to suck the oil from
the surface of the water into holding tanks on the ship. The oil would be transferred to
support ships such as this one that would come in response to the response ship's
emergency signal. Oil response ships like this have been used in other parts of the world
and in a few places in the U.S. where they have been very effective.
Studies have shown that this plan would prevent two sandy beach spills -- two of
the larger sandy beach spills over the next 10 years. State and university scientists have
studied the affects these spills would have and which the plan would prevent. Beach
spills, such as would be prevented by this plan, do three things: They affect birds, they
affect the local shore and -- and creatures that live on the shore itself and they prevent
people from using the beach to swim. Some species of birds are affected by beach spills
more often that others. This is primarily because of their feeding habits and where they
nest. On average, each beach spill in this area kills approximately 700 birds. In addition,
a few hundred other birds get partially oiled and are unable to watch healthy young
even though they themselves are not otherwise harmed.
The next, uh, page, after the blank page, uh, on page seven gives you some
information about the type of birds that are typically harmed by oil spills on sandy
beaches in this area. None of these birds are endangered, although some are more
common than others. The, um, population of these birds in California is given under the
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names of the birds, so you have the Western Greeb and it's peak population is 50,000.
Male: This is just the population in California, not just in the _______________ -RM: That's right, yes. That's the California population.
Each sandy beach spill kills only a few birds of the less common species like the
Brown Pelican. The more common the bird, the more, uh -- the greater the number of
the birds of that species that -- that tend to be affected.
Female: Can we ask questions?
RM: Uh, one or two.
Female: Are they overpopulated at all or is this an average amount? Do they
have -- I'm wondering if they have natural disaster enough that keep them from
overpopulating -RM: I'll actually come to that one in a bit.
Female: Okay.
RM: Uh, in fact, right now. (Laughter.)
The species of birds that are affected by the oil will eventually return to their
former population size just as they do when large numbers of them are killed by natural
causes such as disease or a temporary food shortage. The actual numbers of years it
takes for the bird species to recover to their former population size depends on the type
of bird, how many birds of that species there are and the number of individual birds that
are affected by the oil. In the case of the sandy beach spill which kill approximately 700
birds, it would only take about a year for the populations that are affected to recover
back to their former size. This is because it's only a small number of birds that are killed
in these types of spills.
If an oil spill washes up on a beach, it also harms many of the small seashore
creatures. If you'll turn to the next page, you'll see a drawing which tries to convey an
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idea of what some of these creatures are. They include crabs, worms, beetles and clams
that live in the sand and in the area between the low tide and the high tide. Sandy
beaches recover the fastest from oil spills compared with marshes and rocky shoreline
because it's possible for clean-up crews to scoop up the oily sand and replace it with
fresh sand. If one of these larger spills affects the beach, it takes an average of about
three weeks before people can use the beach again. The small seashore creatures that
live in the sand usually take about three months to reestablish themselves. As I
mentioned, the bird populations take about a year.
If the present program, uh -- oil spill prevention program continues with no
change, it is predicted that up to three larger spills would affect the Greater Los Angeles
area beaches and wildlife over the next 10 years. An expanded plan such as I described
to you would be able to prevent damage from two of these three spills. The -- an
expanded program would be paid for by a new tax on every barrel of oil that is carried
to California by tanker beginning in 1995. The oil companies would pay this tax into a
special State fund. The price of oil products such as gasoline, heating oil, would be
increased to cover this extra cost of doing business in California. By law, the fund in the
program would be under the control of a board of public trustees. This would help
make sure that the money is only used for this program and that the program would be
run by the Coast Guard as efficiently as possible.
As I mentioned, the State is willing to undertake and expand this program, but
only if enough people are willing to pay for it. If the expanded program is not
approved, the State will continue its current oil spill prevention program. We found
that some people are for the expanded program and others vote against it. Both have
good response for their vote. You might vote for the expanded program because it will
prevent two spills which would have the effects that I described over the next 10 years.
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If you'll turn the next page and after the front page, you'll see a summary, of what
would otherwise happen as a result of each of these two spills. It lists a number of birds
that would be killed, the birds that would be partially oiled and have trouble
reproducing, the estimated recovery time of all the bird species, the miles of shoreline
that would be affected and the recovery time for the miles of shoreline. As I mentioned,
the beaches themselves, would -- could be cleaned up and typically _____________
within three weeks of an oil spills. You might vote against the program because each of
the two spills the expanded program would prevent would otherwise harm only 700
birds and a few miles of sandy beach habitat and within three weeks to a year, these uh,
resources would recover as they were before. You might rather spend your money on
other environmental or social problems that are more important to you or money might
be tight for you and it might be difficult for your household to pay anything more in
higher oil and gasoline prices.
The expanded program that would prevent the two sandy beach spills in the next
10 years is estimated to cost your household $15.00 each year for the next ten years. This
money would be in addition to what you already pay for your current programs.
Now I'd like you to turn the page and answer the question on that page which
asks you how you would vote.
Female: Can we ask, uh, questions please?
RM: Uh, no. I'd like to have the discussion afterwards. So if you'd please um -Male: What is the question?
RM: What is the question? If expanding the State's oil spill program to prevent
sandy beach spills would cost your household a total of $15.00 each year, for the next 10
years, would you vote for or against the program?
Female: It's on the next --
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(Voices talking over one another.)
Female: Blank page -Male: Two blank pages -RM: Oh, dear. Uh, this is page 12. Forgive me.
(Voices talking over one another.)
RM: Uh, I'd like to have the questions afterwards, if that's okay.
Female: But all -- all I wanna know is if the program that's in -- in existence now
if there was an oil spill if it costs us extra or if takes care of -RM: Actually, I'd like you to vote given the information that I've given you, uh,
and then I'll be very interested in your question.
Male: -- anything else on the ballot.
RM: So please don't -(Voices talking over one another.)
RM: I -- I really don't want to discuss it at this point. So if you would, just, uh,
answer the question given the information you have, uh, and then we'll be discussing it
afterwards.
All right.
Once you've answered the question, I'd like you to turn, if you
answered -- if you would vote against the program, I'd like you to turn to the next page
and answer that question. If you voted for the program, I'd like you to turn to the
second page, page 14, and to answer that question. So if you voted against, go to page
13. If you voted for, go to page 14. And then we'll have a bit more material that I need
to present before we have our question and discussion period.
(Pause.)
Female: Says describe what covering contaminated sediments would do that
you'd be willing to pay for.
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RM: Oh, I see. No. I'm -- No. I'm sorry. Thanks for asking me. No. It should
read, um, please describe the reasons why you voted for the program.
Female: Okay.
RM: So, just cross out that sentence. That's very confusing. I guess that sentence
got added -- why you decided to vote for the program.
(Pause.)
Okay. Now, the program I just described to you would help protect the Greater
Los Angeles area uh, and the sandy beaches there from the affects of -- of a couple of oil
spills. However, some of the larger oil spills also have been in other parts of the coast, in
particular along the central coast and in the uh, salt water marshes. A new Coast Guard
program could be designed to prevent damage from one of these types of spills instead.
I'd like to tell you about one of these possibilities and get your opinion about it. Okay.
As you can see, we have the California coastline here. The shoreline running
from San Francisco and especially down in Santa Barbara, um, involves many rocky
shoreline areas. Living along these rocky shorelines are a large number of birds which
are typically affected every time a spill occurs in this area. When tankers are on their
way up and down the coast, they sometimes have accidents and spill oil that washes up
on these rocky shores. About two of these spills also occur, uh, over a 10-year period.
When rocky shoreline spills happen, they typically kill about 5,000 birds and oil or
partially harm another 3,000 birds. In the case of these spills with the damage to birds
being this high, it takes about five years for the bird populations to recover to their
former size. Also -- and if you'll turn, uh-- first turn to the uh, next page and you'll see
pictures of the types of birds that are typically harmed in rocky shoreline oil spills. Uh
--
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Female: Does anybody want a soda?
RM: -- you can see that it's a somewhat different group of birds. These are birds
that tend to live off shore to uh, be in the water a lot to dive for fish and things of that
kind. Again, these birds are -- some of these birds are more common than other words
-- than other birds. That is, there's more of them. Again, none of these birds is an
endangered species or in danger of becoming endangered.
Um, and then the next page ______________ give some of the features of the
rocky shoreline which has kelp, crabs, clams, muscles, other types of creatures that live
on the rocks or in the water between the area that's covered by the tide. Okay?
As I mentioned, about two larger spills affect rocky shorelines over roughly a
10-year period. What I'm interested to know is how you think this sort of rocky
shoreline spill compares with a beach spill that I told you about earlier. On the one
hand, the State could spend money with escort ships in the Los Angeles harbor area to
prevent spills and damage to the beaches in that area. On the other hand, they can have
these escorted or oil response ships to control the coastline to prevent oil spills that
damage this type of shoreline.
If you'll turn to the next page, you'll see summarized the affects of a typical rocky
shoreline oil spill. What I'd like you to do on the following page, which is 18, and which
is blank, is to say whether um, if the cost were the same, whether it would be more
important to you to prevent the types of rocky shoreline spills that I've described, or to
prevent the types of sandy beach spills that I've described, or would it to be the same?
So please write down "rocky shoreline," or "sandy beach" or "the same."
Female: You didn't cover on this one how they clean it up.
RM: It would be -Male: Same technique.
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Female: Scoop up the sand and take it away and re- -RM: No, in fact, I think I skipped a little part of it which is that if all these ships
would operate to help prevent spills, once it still occurs, you can't clean it up in that way,
but because the rocky shorelines exposed to the open sea in California, you have a lot of
wave action, and the wave action is what these two lead to the, uh, recovery ________
time for shore line, even if it's very heavily oiled, uh, the wave action basically cleans
most of it off and churns out the whole area so that the oil breaks up and dissolves -Female: Within the year -RM: And is diluted within a year.
Male: I'm still not sure I recognize the question here.
RM: Oh, well she asked well how would -Male: No, I mean, your question.
RM: Oh. Sure. Let me ask it again. If the cost were the same, to prevent spills to
the rocky shoreline or spills to the sandy beaches that I described, the one case the
Central uh, coastline, the other case, the Greater Los Angeles area, which of the two, if
the state were to go ahead with this, would you prefer to protect? Rocky shoreline,
sandy beach or the same?
Female: And that's with the extra tax on gas.
RM: That's right. And I know that some of you voted "no." That's fine. This is -Male: The choice -- the choice?
Male: Is either one or the other or both?
RM: That's correct.
Male: Save one or the other or both?
RM: That's a good point. No, it's not to save one or the other, it's which you
would prefer if one of them were to be protected. And you may have an equal
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preference or well, if it's gonna be one, it doesn't matter to me and that's the way to do
it, uh, because for this cost, only one of these, uh, enterprises can be put into operation.
So if only one could be done and the cost would be the same, would you prefer, uh, the
rocky shorelines to be protected or the sandy beach area to be protected? Okay?
And if we can imagine, from what I just described to you briefly, the marshy area.
In the case of the marshy area, you have _____________ populations that would be
affected and they're shown on the next page, and these type of birds are distinct from
the types of birds as we've seen for the previous two types of spills. Again, some of these
birds are more common than others. Again, none of these birds -- this is page 19 -- again,
none of these birds are endangered species. And in addition to the affects on birds,
there are also affects on the wildlife that live in or depend upon marshy areas.
The next page shows -- just to give you an idea of a marshy area and begins to
suggest some of the creatures that have lived there, uh, mainly the ones that are in the
water or the tidal areas, but in addition to these, there are small mammals like muskrats
or certain kinds of mice or other types of mammals that live in the habitat. If there's an
oil spill there, these creatures, typically have to move on to somewhere else, uh, because
the oil affects their habitat for a period of time. Um, there are also areas where fish
breed and those small fish, uh, and the eggs could be temporarily harmed until the oil is
uh, broken up and absorbs into the, uh, epi system.
The next page summarizes these types of affects that spills in a place like the San
Francisco Bay area and the types of marshes in the Bay area, this is what a typical spill in
this type of area, um, causes. The bird kills are 3,000, partially, uh, oiled, 1,500. The
recovery time in this case for these types of bird population is five years. The miles of
shoreline that are affected at 15 in this case because the oil spreads out and tends to seep,
uh, over -- once it gets released, it tends to seep over a larger area, and because of the
17
particular characteristics of marshes, the recovery time is five years in this case. The
type of program that would prevent this type of spill, would be somewhat similar to the
type of program in Los Angeles area, except in this case, there would be different types
of ships that would be stationed in the., uh, -- the San Francisco Bay area. These ships
would patrol on a continuous basis, pa- -- and be adjacent to areas that have been
identified as places in the past where problems can emerge. They would escort ships
through the Golden Gate, uh, whenever there is any possibility of bad weather or fog or
things that could cause problems as it has in the past, and there would be helicopters
that could take crews very quickly ___________ any place where a spill occurred and it
began to spread, and so this program would speed the response time, um, considerably
from the way it is now and presumably, it would prevent some of these spills from
happening. And now, the last question before -- yes?
Female: You've given us an estimate about how many spills there have been. Do
you have an estimate for this one? The usual amount?
RM: I -- I think it's the usual amount? Yeah.
Female: Two ______________.
Male: We're talking about major spills, right.
RM: _____________ approximately, the larger spills. That's right.
Female: Is it the same for marshes?
RM: Yes. That's right. So in this case, if there were two -- the possibility of two
large spills that could be prevented to marshy areas in the San Francisco Bay and the cost
of doing this would be the same to you or your household as taxpayers, uh, basically
paid for through oil and what you pay for oil and gas, um, comparing this with a sandy
beach spill, would you prefer -- if one of these programs could be done at this cost -- the
marshes to be protected or the sandy beach, or don't you have a choice between those
18
two. If you'd write that down.
Female: __________________________
RM: Yes, if you don't have a preference between those two. Write it on the
previous page where you answered the question -Female: The previous ones?
RM: Yes.
Male: The previous or the next?
RM: Um, _______________ let's go down to blank and that's page 22.
Female: 22.
RM: On page 22, indicate if you prefer if it -- if only one program could be done,
uh, would you prefer it to be for the sandy beaches or would you prefer it to be for, uh,
the marshy type spills, or are you indifferent, uh, don't you have preference.
Male: _______________ category.
RM: Well, it's -- it's all sort of the same. Let's see. You have a question
_____________?
Male: I do.
RM: Dorothy, do you have a question?
Male: Third times a charm. There's a third chart that says, studies of California
are ____________________." Well, who's studies?
RM: State's studies.
Male: State? State of California. Governmental
RM: State size and studies of State's commission from universities.
Male: Paid for by the State?
RM: Yes.
Female: And there's -- you know the open with the um, last bills --
19
RM: Okay. So we're into questions and that's fine. What's your question?
Female: I thought the map showed it was more the likelihood of it being uh, in
the Southern California -RM: _____________ was it this map?
Female: No. The other one.
RM: Uh, this is the one.
Male: Page three I think.
RM: Page three.
Female: Yeah. I thought you said the likelihood of it happening would be the -or is it all the same _______________.
RM: No, I said the reason that the sandy beach type of spill was chosen was
because, first there are more refineries here in this area, that serve the house???? state,
and the second is because -- if you can see, there's so much transportation down here
and also because all this is unload, the tankers can't -- can't come in to dock on the shore
-Female: So their likeliness is -RM: They have to -Female: -- is they're more than -RM: That's right. There's more -Female: Okay. And less and less as _________________?
RM: No. Uh, the likelihood of a spill in San Francisco Bay is probably about the
same as the rocky shoreline. Okay. Susan, you had a question a while back. Do you
remember what it was?
Susan: Yeah. I was wondering what the -- what -- I guess what the budget is now
for the present program and where that money comes from.
20
RM: Uh-huh. The present -- I don't know the exact budget, but it's not very
much money that, um, the State pays. The cost really is the cost of the oil companies of
obeying the various requirements that the State imposes on them and these
requirements involve, you know, the way they run their tankers, the personnel and the
various things that I mentioned.
Susan: So when there is an oil spill and the crews go out to clean it out -RM: That's right.
Susan: -- the oil companies are paying now -- now they're paying for those crews
to go out.
RM: That's right.
Susan: Whereas if this was implemented, then we, the taxpayers, would be
paying for these crews to go out.
RM: No. Not quite. In both cases, we as taxpayers pay because the oil companies
-- this increases their cost of doing business. Of course, we'd all like them to take it out
of profits, but when something -- that's the cost of doing business, it gets passed on to us.
Male: But, to be precise, we the taxpayers don't pay for it, we the citizens pay for
it.
RM: Exactly. That's -- that's one way of looking at it. You do pay a small amount
in your taxes for the State officials that run these programs. ____________?
Female: How much would you say that is a year?
RM: It's very, very small.
Female: A dollar you mean?
RM: ________________. I wouldn't even know, actually because compared with
so many programs in the State, this -- this is a very small program, um, basically, in
21
many cases, the oil companies, uh, you know, have to do the policing, and they have to
pay for the clean-up if a spill occurs and all the rest of it. So -- so most of the cost of these
programs really is something that's -- that's forced from the oil companies and this
would be a similar type of thing.
Male: But you're in -RM: Dorothy.
Dorothy: Do the oil companies follow all of the guidelines that the State has?
Male: No.
RM: -- sure they -- sometimes they don't.
Dorothy: Well, I mean. Are they policed?
RM: Um, the policing is not very much. I understand there's some, but the -- the
-- the State office of ______________ is -- is not a very large office.
Female: Sss -RM: D- -- Dolores, did you have a -Dolores: Yeah, the -- we were sayin' -- talking about taxpayers, but when -when you're saying about people paying or people saying that people pay, that's when
our PG&E goes up, when the oil spills, they get us by raising our oil every day.
RM: Uh-huh.
Dolores: I don't think that's fair.
RM: To the extent -- this PT- -- I don't know how PT&E -Dolores: Yeah. Soon as there's an oil spill -RM: They use the oil in their plants?
Dolores: Well some people do, yeah, for you know, they don't have the exact
PG&E, they use oil in heating and different things like that. It's raised.
RM: That would be raised.
22
Male: PG&E's more hydraulic, though.
Dolores: Yes. They call it -- different companies at different places -(Some other voices talking.)
Male: But the cost of a barrel of oil is directly related to the cost of gas prices at
the pump.
Female: Right.
Male: The more it costs, the more it costs to us, not just in buying gasoline, but in
all goods that are trucked or shipped or anything. So the cost of everything goes up
when you raise the cost of gasoline. If the oil companies raise the price of it, then in
California, in particular, and the gas is cheaper in other states, what's gonna stop people
from bootlegging or black-marketing gas in from another state bypassing the fund
altogether?
RM: Well, uh -Male: I mean, it only takes a couple dollars one way or another and they'll drive
across the boarder for milk or tires or TV's, so -RM: No. They will? If you live near the border, for sure. If -- if gas is higher in
California, but I'm not sure it is.
Female: It is.
Male: It is.
Female: I was driving cross country yesterday.
RM: Which state?
Female: It's much higher than in the South. I mean, Georgia, you can get
unleaded -RM: -- drive to Georgia to fill up your tank.
(Voices talking over one another.)
23
Female: That's not the point.
Female: And Nevada.
Female: Arizona it's cheaper.
Male: Good ways from the border.
RM: Sure, but you're absolutely right. If -- if gas is cheaper somewhere else and
people are near the border -Male: So you -- you add a $15.00 tax on each household, the gas company gets a
little tax, they raise the price of -- of the barrel of oil, then all of a sudden, there's less
jobs, there's less people buying things, there's less everything.
Male: Remember, the $15.00 is not on your house. That's the indirect -Male: Right. Hopefully.
Male: Not to mention -Male: __________
Male: You add the price of the pump and you add the cost of buying the clothes
that are trucked _________ milk or anything else that you get.
Male: It's all included in the $15.00.
Male: No. It's not.
RM: Jean?
Jean: My question.
(Voices talking over one another.)
RM: Jean. It's Jean's turn.
Jean: Uh, my question was regarding the cost of the clean-up versus the cost of
this program -RM: Uh-huh.
Jean: If there'd been any -- you know, can you give us an example of this. Is it
24
actually more cost effective to just clean it up, or is it more cost effective to implement
the program?
RM: Probably more cost effective to -- to try to clean it up after the fact.
Female: They cost less money that way?
RM: It costs the oil companies less money.
(Voices talking over one another.)
RM: Yes.
Female: It actually costs less to clean it up than to prevent it.
Male: But they never clean it up. That's the whole problem.
Female: Yeah. I know.
RM: Well, ______________ -Male: You know, Exxon claims they cleaned up Valdese -Female: There was still -Male: -- but uh, they haven't and talk to the French fisherman from that -- there
was a big oil spill 15 years -- 12, 15 years ago on the west coast of France, I think it was
called the Amaco Cadize. I think that's the name of it.
RM: Yes.
Male: Those fisherman still can't find any fish out in the sea.
RM: Uh-huh.
Male: They've -- they're all starving and Am- -- you know, they claim that it was
all over within a year.
There's -- it's been 12, 15 years, and it's still ruining the
environment there.
RM: Now often, there is a dispute about who's gonna do the clean up and
whether it's actually -(Voice talking over Mr. Mitchell.)
25
-- Jean?
Jean: The answer you just gave me, the cost of the clean-up versus program, is
that information you can give us before we answer this, or is that something that we
shouldn't know?
RM: Uh. It's hard to tell whether it -Female: Cause it would sway the answer.
RM: It would and -- and what I'm interested in is whether -- what you would get
for what you'd pay, if it's worth anything to you, but that's really the question and if it's
not something that is worth $15.00 to you, then fine. If it is, fine. Don't -Male: Why didn't you mention many of the other costs or effects of oil spills such
as -RM: Such as?
Male: Such as the affect on marine mammals, such as the affect on fisheries.
What happens if one of these oil spills occur right in the middle of whale migrations?
None of -- you didn't mention any of that.
RM: Okay. Uh -Male: And that's some more mitigating factors against the $15.00.
RM: Okay. Could -- could I ask and -- and it'd just be very helpful to me if you
could think back when you were considering it. Did any others of you have wondered
at -(End of first side.)
Female: I mean, the ocean would actually.
RM: Uh-huh. Okay. And how about fish? Again, how many of you had fish in
mind? Two, three, four, five -- okay -- uh, six. Six, I guess altogether. Uh, in terms of
fish, generally speaking, oil spills -- I know people, uh, feel that there is an attraction in
26
Alaska and there very well might be because of particular situations of salmon in Prince
William Sound, but essentially speaking, there really isn't except in the marshes. Uh,
that's why I mentioned fish there, uh, because marshes are places where fish breed and
get to very, uh, small fish that are protected in many of the marshes. Except for marshes,
there really isn't much of an affect on fish. As far as mammals, it's the rare California
spill that affects mammals unlike, again, in the Alaska spill where sea otter especially
live in the area. They're very vulnerable to being oiled, but uh, basically, in an Alaska
spill in -- in California cause it would be extremely rare type of spill that's never
occurred that would affect -Male: That's true. Never occurred, but extremely rare, but if it happened in the
wrong week -RM: Uh-huh.
Male: -- of the year, in the middle of whale migration, you can kiss off most of
the humpback whales or -- which the pilots or whichever ones are migrating that
particular week.
RM: Actually whales, um, it's an interesting thing. When you get an open sea
spill, um, sometimes birds -- uh, the oil spreads on the sea and from a bird's point of
view, it looks like smooth ocean -- good place to sit down and land. Let's see, you got -certain types of birds that sit down and they don't realize the situation 'til they're in the
oil, but with mammals, generally speaking, and I think especially whales, they're able to
smell it and to, you know, unless somehow it's dumped right in the middle -Male: That's the same line that Exxon gave about -- there's a breed of whales up
in the Prudo Bay or Sound or whatever that's called -RM: Kill- -- Killer Whales -Male:
And they are -- they've been severely impacted and everybody's
27
wondering where they went -RM: Uh-huh.
Male: -- and it's because of the oil and Exxon claims they're out at sea, but
everybody else thinks they're dead.
RM: Uh-huh. I'd be interested in -- in what your thoughts were about these
different types of areas. Uh, I -- I'd asked you to make comparisons and _________ it
would be hard to make those comparisons because as you've already noted, there's
information you wished I'd given you that I didn't and it took me a fair amount of time,
right? -- to give you the information that I did. Um, Dave, what -- what was your
feeling about the three different types of areas?
Dave:
Well, since they're so geographically concentrated, at least how you
presented them, I think people in LA would not be inclined to vote to clean up the
marshes in San Francisco Bay -RM: Uh-huh.
Dave: And I think there's a certain -- you know, just between the water problem
and all the other problems we have the South part of the state, it's a good reason to split
the state up into two or three pieces.
(Laughter.)
-- just think it's a really geographical issue.
RM: Uh-huh. And was it for you?
Dave: Yeah. Sure. I -- I -- I think the fact that the marshes take so much longer
to clean up and the fact that it's so much closer to here, I think it's a natural for people in
the Bay area to vote for it, but I don't think in LA, they'd think like that.
RM: Uh-huh. Well, how 'bout the rest of you? How did you feel about it
personally? Male: Marshes.
28
Female: ________________
Male: The marshes are obviously in -- scientifically the most valuable and the
most readily damaged, and the most difficult to repair. That's the whole -- that's the
whole weapons controversy. And all you'd really have to -- if you could find some
intelligent life in the south land is persuade them that their water quality is impacted by
destruction. One of the reasons that, uh, I objected to the whole notion of any of
_____________________ action on any of these things -RM: Uh-huh.
Male: -- is because it ignores the -- well, I consider, I don't worry about these
catastrophic spills so much as the almost constant spillage into the bay and into our
_____________ -- it's only 5 gallons or it's only 500 gallons, but they -- you know, what
they don't repeat -RM: Uh-huh.
Male: -- is that -- that is constant. Who adds up the total yearly.
RM: Uh-huh. Did you -- how 'bout the rest of you? Did any of you share with
his concern? Bill.
Bill: I filed them all as equal -- equally precious, so I didn't make any distinction
in time or, uh -- recovery time or, uh, animal situation, so I -RM: Uh-huh.
Bill: -- I just counted them all -- in terms of the preciousness and -- and the
importance of all of 'em. So geographically, it didn't matter to me.
RM: Uh-huh. Would you be willing to pay for anything?
Bill: No. Not under the criteria that you gave.
RM: And -- and what are the -- why not?
Bill: Can I read my answer?
29
RM: Sure.
Bill: Do you mind?
RM: No, not at all.
Bill: Some people aren't going to like me here. Sorry.
Female: As long as ___________________.
Male: You may be surprised.
Bill: Oh, okay. My comments were, um, too costly, money to be spent in other
state areas. Short recovery time of wildlife and beaches. Short duration of programs in
10 years where the double-hulled ve- -- vessels would reduce the problem. Uh, cost
spread over all taxpayers, and then I thought of it in terms of, uh -- my last comment
was, uh, make responsible oil, uh, company pay for the clean up.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Bill:
It -- kind of the -- the free enterprise system. The most efficient oil
companies will be the ones that won't be doing these even though, you know, accidents
do occur, but like on -RM: Uh-huh.
Bill: But like on the Exxon, you know, they should be the ones that handle it and
consequently, their costs go up so their cost at the pump goes up to every one else,
where the other companies, a -- a Chevron or Atlantic Richfield or -- won't have that
cost. So that's how I felt.
RM: Uh-huh. Okay.
Male: Yeah, well, how'd you make 'em clean it up? That's the problem. They -they -- they -- it's all a PR to them and -Bill: Yeah. Well, as I say -Male: -- they don't clean it up.
30
Bill: -- my money, I can see other areas within the State that I would spend this
on.
Female: Yeah, but then they say, you know, if we paid for it, we're gonna clean
it up right. They're gonna come in and clean it up, who's to say really that they're really
gonna do it. It's all hearsay right now.
RM: Uh-huh. Dolores, did you think that the three types of, uh, places where the
spills could occur, were -- were they equally important to you?
Dolores: I thought the marshes were more important to me.
RM: I see.
Dolores: At the sandy beaches, as far as I'm concerned now, the way our
economy is going right now and the way people take care of it that are using it, they're
destroying it themselves, so, uh, to me, the sandy -- this marsh is more important than
a sandy beach.
RM: Uh-huh. And would you say the same thing if you were living in LA, do
you think?
Dolores: If I was living in LA? Yes, I would. I've been in LA.
RM: Yes.
Dolores: Yes.
RM: So it's not just that the sandy -- the, uh, marshes are close by.
Dolores: No, has nothing to do with that at all.
Male: There are some important marshes down there.
RM: Dorothy, how about you?
Dorothy: Um, I felt that the marshes were more important, but I also felt that the
fact that they had to off-load the oil in the sandy areas off shore was a real consideration
too, but then on the other hand, I also felt that the turnover of the reproduction of the
31
birds and the, um, time that it took to get the land back, you know, was much shorter in
the sandy beach area, where in the marsh area, it took a lot longer, and it was, um -- and
the Bay area's enclosed also. I mean, you don't -- you know, you have that -- that whole
area that the water's not moving as much as it is -RM: Uh-huh.
Dorothy: I mean, to me.
RM: Uh-huh. How 'bout you, Mary?
Mary: I put marsh -- uh, marshes, but I voted no.
RM: Uh-huh.
Mary: I had a similar -- like, uh, Bill. At the end of his, he said, uh, he'd uh, -what'd you say at the end of your's, uh -Bill: Make responsible.
Mary: Yeah. That's right. I -- I was more -- they should be more responsible for
it.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Mary: But -- and I didn't -- as far as geographically, I took into consideration, the
response time that marshes take.
RM: Uh-huh. How long it takes for it to recover.
Mary: Right. Recover.
RM: Tina, you had your hand up before.
Tina: I was wondering if you guys were doing the same survey in LA?
RM: Oh, sure. Yeah -- ult- -- ult- -- ultimately it would be done everywhere, to
give everybody a chance to express their -- their opinions.
Female: I'm sure the -- I'm sure the answers would be different in Santa Cruz,
Santa Barbara and LA.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Well, and of course, then we have the Central Valley.
32
Male: I was gonna say, what about Stockton?
RM: Exactly.
Male: Well, no Stockton has -Female: -- they go to the beach.
RM: Uh-huh. But -- but they -Male: Bakersfield.
RM: Yeah, but they wouldn't be protected by -- by a plan like this. They really
are something, uh, it's a different kind of -- kind of area.
Just out of curiosity, how many of you voted "yes?" Two, three? Um, and just out
of curiosity -- and I didn't ask you this question, so I'm asking you to think about it now.
For those of you who voted "no" for the beaches, um, if I had begun, let's say with the
marshes, would have any of you, um, have voted for the program if it -- if it were the
marshes, not the beaches, let's say. Dolores is shaking her head no.
Dolores: Huh-uh.
RM: Uh-huh.
Female: I just can't see taxpayers paying any more. We're doing enough.
RM: Uh-huh. Dorothy?
Dorothy: It's a -- it's a hard thing to vote on. I mean, I was very torn, uh, $15.00
to me doesn't seem like that much, I mean a dollar -- you know, a dollar a month, or -- is
not that much, but you really didn't -- I felt like Jean did, in a way I didn't really have
enough information, uh, and so I just had to go along with what you said.
RM: Uh-huh. Which was to take -- make a judgment on the information I gave
you.
Dorothy: Uh-huh.
RM: And what information would you have liked -- might have been helpful to
33
you?
Dorothy: That I mean, truly, if I had other choices of places to put my money,
that's not where I would put it.
RM: Yes. Okay.
Dorothy. But I mean, if this is -- you know, my choices are -- I can only put my
money here -RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Dorothy: But I think the marshes are more important. If you'd said marshes first,
I think my vote would have been swayed more.
RM: But even so, as far as what I've described to you, how it would be affected
by the marsh, uh, it's not worth that much to you, then, to protect against those spills, if
I understand you correctly.
Dorothy: I mean for two spills for 10 years.
RM: That's right.
Dorothy: You know.
RM: To pay with other things.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Jean?
Jean: I want to say I agreed with Bill, but my -- the reason I would vote for it is I
figured that, um, if they were gonna prevent two out of three spills, as the taxpayers, I
figure we would end up paying for it anyway through some sort of costs through the oil
company or through taxes or whatever. So I would rather pay the money ahead of time
to prevent two of 'em.
RM: Uh-huh.
(Voices over one another.)
Male: You can pay a lot less through free enterprise than through taxes.
34
RM: Dave -- Dave and then Dolores. Dave?
Dave: I was just gonna say, I don't think that taxation is a very efficient way of -Female: Yeah. No.
Dave: -- spending money and -- and two thirds of that money just goes into their
bureaucracy.
Female: Uh-huh.
Male: Are we -- I said -- I don't want to -- I'm opposed to the whole thing because
I think that you know, there are more basic solutions about to be undertaken, like a
pipeline at the end -- at the north end of the state, but you know, it isn't really an issue
of taxes, is it. It's -- it's an addition to your cost of living, but it's not a government taxed
program.
RM: Well, we were asked if we would pay the additional money for -Male: For like the utility bill.
Female: Well, there are -Male: And I -- and I -- even though it isn't taxation, it's still money that's being
indirectly spent, instead of directly spent by Exxon having their own fleet of people
going out there and cleaning it up. Like you say, maybe they won't do it, but -Female: Well the other option is to police it for them to do it and spend the
money doing that than, you know, and make 'em do it or whatever. I mean -- I don't
how -RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Female: -- how realistic that is, but I think policing it is preventing it itself -RM: Uh-huh.
Female: -- to make sure that they're abiding by the rules and spending the money
there instead of, well, let's have this thing to clean it up, well, that's kind of after the fact
35
-RM: Uh-huh.
Female: You know. It -- it's much better to get it sooner and police 'em to make
sure that they're abiding by all the rules.
RM: Uh-huh. I promised Dolores, then Tim and then Susan. Dolores?
Dolores: Nope. I didn't have anything more to say.
RM: Cause I cut you off -- okay.
Dolores: No. That's okay.
RM: Okay. Just wanted to give a chance. Tip?
Tip: Doesn't the federal government have a super fund to clean up large oil
spills?
RM: Not oil spills. It -- it cleans up, uh, chemical contamination, uh -Tip: ____________ put up the wires -RM: Where -(Laughter and voices over one another.)
RM: -- dumped -- dumped materials of one kind or the other on land or -- or in
some cases -(Voices over one another.)
Male: And also wouldn't, uh, consumers, boycott -- police the oil companies.
RM: Would a consumer well-cott -Male: Boycott.
RM: That would be an alternative. Yes. I suppose. Uh, to voice our -- boycott
with Exxon.
Male: Well it doesn't really, I mean -Male: Yeah.
36
Male: As far as they all -- they all gonna be in it together and raise their prices at
once, but as far as, you know particularly boycotting one brand, that seems to work in -RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Male: -- in other consumer ends wouldn't it work for the oil company? They
could make a big spill and don't clean it up. Right. So everybody doesn't buy their
product.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh, what do the rest of you think? Would there be an effective
way
to -Male: Doesn't work. I cut up my Exxon card a week -- within a week after the
spill and mailed it back to 'em -RM: Uh-huh.
Male: -- and uh, never heard a word from 'em and uh, haven't been back to one
of their stations.
RM: Uh-huh.
Male: They didn't miss you ___________.
Male: That's right. They don't care.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Female: No. When you dropped -Male: Somebody else said something that -Female: -- something else dropped down, you know, somebody else to pick it up.
(Voices over one another.)
Male: That's true. That's true.
Female: You know, somebody else to pick it up.
RM: Sus- -- Susan's next and then Richard.
37
Susan: Oh. I forgot.
RM: You forgot? Can we turn to Richard for the moment?
Susan: Uh-huh.
RM: Let me know if -- if you remember.
Susan: Okay.
RM: Richard?
Richard: Someone -- it might have been Tina -- said, couldn't we, uh, require the
specific oil company that operated a specific tanker to -- you know, undertake it, and
therefore, only that oil company could only raise it's price?
Male: But they just said, because of the, uh, the expense of doing it and then -Richard: Yeah.
Male: And if you have less profits and less dividends -Richard: Yeah, but that's the big problem is like nearly all of these tankers
shipments are consortium shipments and they're not -Male: -- all come in contact ________________ -Richard: You can't find the oil company. Basically, the only reason the Valdese
could be attributed to Exxon, is because they have the contract for that year for that -- for
that tanker. It may have actually been -- they may have actually owned that thing.
Female: Think they owned it.
Male: Yeah, they did own.
Richard: Which is the thing they have subsequently made sure they don't make
that same mistake again. They're subletting all those tankers.
RM: Or they have a different name.
(Laughter.)
Male: Uh-huh. Susan, yes?
38
Susan: I was wondering when you were talking about the oil spills that have
already happened and how they haven't cleaned it up as opposed to whoever they are.
Would it oil company, government or, you know, whoever. What assurance do we
have that the program that you have now within 10 years will be implemented and that
they will all follow through with it -RM: I see.
Susan: -- we're in -- what assurance do we have that this program would be
conducted the way that it should be and -RM: Uh-huh.
Susan: -- would be doing everything that it's supposed -RM: Well, all you can do is -(Voices talking over one another.)
Female: ____________ double hull.
Female: On the double hulling, are they -- they all going to be checked -RM: Congress passed a law which requires all tankers that operate in the -- in the
U.S., by X time to have double hulls, so that's one of the outcomes of the Exxon Valdese
spill. tentatively.
Female: How are they going to enforce that?
(Voices over one another.)
Male: I think it's important at the point of construction.
Male: __________________ assembly. Costs hardly anything to keep track of all
the ships that all the oil company wouldn't pay for either.
RM: I know.
Male: Another thing that would -- would possibly save a lot of this and not cost
that much at the pump either.
39
RM:
Possibly, I -- I'm not aware of -- of that program or -- or how effective it
would be, but it is possible. Who made -- um, we're kind of chugging along on time, and
there's a couple of things that'd be very useful for me to, uh, pick your brains about. And
one of them is: As you can see, the effects of oil spills on a particular area, even a sandy
beach area, tended -- are rather complex. That is, you have, uh, certain birds and
creatures that are infected. You have certain amounts of -- of miles of sand that are
affected. You have recovery times, uh, and things of that nature. I tried to give you
some basic information, but it may very well be that some of the information I gave you,
such as the information summarized on the sheets where it said, you know, how many
birds, and how long it would take and so forth, uh, may -- may be something that you
don't find particularly critical or believable because it was expressed in such a short
length of time.
Can you remember any features of any of the three types of spills that the
information I gave you -- you can turn to these types of pages if you wanted to -- I'd be
very helpful for me if -- if you had any particular reactions to the descriptions. Jean?
Jean: I felt overall that the first description was very detailed, and as you got
further along, they were more and more vague.
RM: Yes.
Jean: And it would be nice if they each had equal weight.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Jean: And detail. Maybe you expected us to just assume everything else was the
same -RM: Yes.
Jean: You wanna know if it's different -- I would like to know if it's different.
RM: Uh-huh. Susan, I saw you nodding your head.
40
Susan: I'd agree.
RM: Uh, ________, then Bill, were you nodding your head too? Or, make a
different point?
Bill: Well, kind of a -- well, I agree with that point.
RM: Uh-huh.
Bill: You did get vaguer and vaguer as you went on, but, you only mentioned a
few of the many birds out there -RM: That's true.
Bill: -- and there are quite a few of them that are endangered, but you didn't
even mention those on here.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. But these birds are not typically affected on spills.
Susan?
Susan: Now what about in the marshlands?
RM: Yes.
Susan: -- most of -- I would think that you would know, perhaps, a few of us had
been to visit the marshlands -RM: Yes.
Susan: -- and uh, been on nature walks through there, and there are quite a bit
of wildlife there that is endangered.
RM: Uh-huh.
Susan: Um, how are they affected -- such as the Red Fox, which is found only,
right now, I believe on one of the field trips I went on with one of my kids over here -RM: Uh-huh.
Susan: -- is only found around here right now. Isn't it? It was imported from the
-- Europe to the East Coast with fox hunts --
41
RM: Uh-huh.
Susan: -- with fox hunts from the East Coast out here, and -RM: Yes.
Susan: -- their population is very small. How would they be affected, you know
as the example, there are others.
Male: Soft harvest mouse -- but there are diving birds -- what -- that are out at
the fair ___________ that they're only a couple hundred, a couple of thousand of each
species and they're endangered.
RM: Uh-huh.
Male: I don't know the names of 'em, cause I'm not a -RM: Yes. Sure.
Male: -- biologist, but there -- I know that they're a diving bird who live out at
the -- at the fair ___________ who are on endangered species lists.
RM: Which types of spill would -- would possibly threaten them?
Male: The rocky coast spill.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Okay. ________, do you feel -Female: All right. When you were -- they're -- they're talking about your being
vague?
RM: Yes.
Female: Well, my assumption to the whole thing was that everything was equal
except for the specifics that you gave -RM: Right.
Female: That's -- that's, you know, just thinking. It was clear to me.
RM: I see.
Male: I assumed it was like Old MacDonald's Farm. You -- you just added some
42
additional -(Some laughter.)
Female: Yeah. That's what I thought.
RM: How 'bout you, ______________?
Female: I -- I assumed that it was all equal. Maybe you should just say that when
you're, you know, when you finish the first one -RM: _________________ clearer fashion.
Female: Right -(Voices talking over one another.)
Female: Finish the first one -Female: Send it over factors.
RM: Okay. It'd really be useful for me how many had the reaction that, let's see,
was it Tim that originally made this point?
Female: No, I think it was -Female: Jean.
RM: Jeanie. I'm sorry. But that -- it seems that the information -Male: Got vaguer.
RM: Was vaguer and so you really didn't know what you were judging when you
got to the other two types of spill. For instance -(Voices talking over one another.)
-- is pretty much the same. How many shared Jean's, uh, feelings? Jean? Let's
see, Susan, Bill. Um, all right. So somebody was -- did I leave out somebody?
Male: I had some -- two problems that bothered me was the assumption that
there was going to be two spills -- two major spills in a period of time.
RM: Yes. Why?
43
Male: Well, I mean, we're just talking about a model. It could be zero spills or
five spills, and that has a definite bearing on -- and of course, we don't know -- you
know, looking into the future. And another thing that I had problems with here, um,
kind of the premiss that you put forth, that the double hull, there wouldn't be any
problems after that.
Male: Yeah _______________.
RM: Okay. I think I said it would be -- what was the word I used -- significantly
reduced or something like that. I don't think I said there wouldn't be any problems, but
it -- but it would make a real difference. Uh-huh.
Male: The chances of Exxon Valdese would be significantly lowered.
Male: And then uh -Female: But the transfer of oil.
Male: -- with this, um, a program like this -- a program like this is effected and
the personnel and the vessels that would be required for the -- I'll call it, "short duration"
-- how the men would work and women would be used during time. After the 10
year-period, if -- if they would -- wouldn't be needed, you now, the capital expenditures
for the -- this equipment, where would it go and how would it -- would it be legally used
to -RM: Okay. Actually, a program like this, there would be a fairly big capital
expenditure at the beginning, ____________ quite right. Um, the Coast Guard personnel
could be used on other duties, but the equipment, uh, I imagine, was un_________ in
some way,
but -- but could -- could you um, do you have any idea how many spills, whether the
two spills sound like too few or too many? When you-Male: From a major standpoint, I --
44
RM: From these larger spills as I described them. Do they seem to underestimate
of over estimate?
Male: I thought maybe over, but -- cause I don't have enough to -- to evaluate.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. How about the rest of you? But it doesn't evaluate.
Tim: They're definitely inflated figures, wouldn't they?
RM: Why?
Tim: Cause you -- you going about 10 -- I think 10 years ago, there was less
population, less mode of fuel, but the consumption was probably higher due to the fact
that everything was less than ______, but now you have more population with more
consumption, but things are more efficient, so how many tankers were you running up
and down the coast 10 years as opposed to today? Is the same amount, less or more?
RM: Uh-huh.
Male: Probably doing more now, Tim, because, the oil you were using 20 years
ago was from inland, Continental U.S.
RM:
So Tim, you're -- you're assumption is -- to cut that you made the
assumption it's an underestimate rather than over.
Male: Right. I -- I -Male: I assumed it would be an inflated figure _____________ because you'd say
one year there was three spills, one year there was no spills, you'd have to average it out
and it'd end up at two spills a year -RM: Okay.
Male: -- when in fact, it might not be. It might be 1.6 or something along those
lines.
RM: Yeah. Actually, I was describing it and maybe I didn't do it very well, two
spills every 10 years, rather than two spills. Oh, I see. When I -- at the beginning, I said,
45
one or two spills a year.
Male: Right.
Female: Uh-huh.
RM: Right. Okay. As they were thinking about it.
Male: And also, if you put a lot of endangered species and everything in this, it
would sway your decision to -- if you turned the page and saw nothing but endangered
species and a few migratory birds on it, say, "Wow, this could really" -RM: Uh-huh.
Male: As opposed to seeing a whole bunch of migratory birds or whole bunch of
ones that -RM: Yes.
Male: -- you know, they're gonna come back. There's a whole bunch of 'em.
Don't worry about it, type 'a thing.
RM: But -- but why would I want to do that?
Male: Well, depending on how, you know, what -- what the thing it's supposed
to accomplish, it's -- it's kind of -Male: What answer do you want?
Male: Yeah. It's really kind of one-sided this way.
RM: But you said -Male: Really depends what kind of answer you want -(Voices talking over one another.)
Male: Might be, maybe, maybe not. I'm just -- I'm just making the assumption
that -RM: Sure.
Male: -- that -- that -- you know, I've basically tied this thing up. You'd add more
46
of the endangered species, the more of the problems than you would by adding less of
the problems. The less amount of problems that they add into this -RM: Uh-huh.
Male: -- the less seriously people are gonna take it.
RM: Uh-huh. It's probably true, but, um -- Jean?
Jean: Um.
RM: No, it was ________________?
Female: I still don't think that, um -- it -- it's just I don't want to spend my money
that way. I guess, even though it's hardly anything, I'd rather put it towards education
or something -- I don't know. It wouldn't matter if there's a lot, cause I don't think that's
the way they should, uh, the program, it's not _______________ -RM: Uh-huh. Jean?
Jean: I was thinking you'd be interesting to know, um, not just the direct affects,
but the food chain affects especially in the marsh area -RM: Uh-huh.
Jean: I think, cause going from the fish not being able to reproduce, then the
birds don't eat and then all the mosquitos, all that stuff going to the, um, raccoons and
everything around there. It seems like it would really affect a lot more.
RM: Uh-huh.
Jean: And the other thing I had a question for you, Robert, was that if enough
people we're interested in, um, following a program like this -RM: Uh-huh.
Jean: -- do you think that would give a clear signal to find other sources of energy
because it seems like the oil companies have a huge monopoly. Years and years ago.
there was a beautiful train station running around in San Jose. A oil company bought it
47
out and shut it won so that people would buy cars and use gasoline and oil. And it
seems like, you know, they just have this huge monopoly over things -RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Jean: -- and they still do. There's energy efficient cars, and all this stuff that are
available, but they buy the patents and they're gone.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Jean: Cause they just have it -- it seems like it would be great to break the
monopoly up -- behind this whole thing.
RM: And so you think, um -Jean: Well I'm wondering if and if people say no they re no interested in, you
know, but the oil company'd be responsible if they would be -RM: Uh-huh.
Jean: Would that eventually affect that you think? It seems like it would make
the tiniest little dent that wouldn't care.
RM: I would think that this type of thing that we're talking about wouldn't have
much of an effect. No.
Male: What's your point?
Male: Isn't that an oxymoron, though, responsible for oil companies?
(Laughter.)
RM: Um, there seems to be a bit of, uh, hostility towards the oil companies.
Male: You can always buy _________ -(Voices talking and laughter over one another.)
RM: Um, Richard?
Richard: I -- I said no to everything not because I'm a scrooge, but because I think
you should never ameliorate a situation that requires a more basic response and Jean, I
48
think, is knocking on the door of that. And we really shouldn't do any of this stuff until
we carefully examine why tankers are running up and down the coast. Why is -Dorothy and I both worry about why the, uh, loading and unloading, why is it done at
sea, you know -RM: Uh-huh.
Richard: -- give a perfect -- a half-empty harbor in the Bay area, in San Francisco
and then yet you go down and unload from big tankers to small tankers. I mean, this is
an invitation to spill.
RM: Uh-huh.
Richard: And so on and so forth. In other words, I think this -- this sort of an
approach, has the -- the effect of confusing things, of raising the ____________ of
taxpayers and raising the problem of, well, gee, then we don't need to spend this money.
He have better high public priority -RM: Uh-huh.
Richard: Thus, you wind up doing nothing about any of the things that are
useful.
RM: So you're saying that -- that protecting these areas is important to you, but
-Richard: Very.
RM: -- um, the notion of doing it in this way -Richard: Why is -- why are these areas endangered in the first place, seems to be
the question that has to be answered first.
RM: Uh-huh. Okay. Um. Other reactions to information that I've presented.
Were there other things I left out or things that could be made clearer?
Female: Is this, uh, does this program cover major spills like that Valdese thing,
49
I mean, would they be able to -RM: Not really.
Female: Not. Maybe, uh, it'd be a little bit better, but not -RM: What ____________________________
Female: Better clean up, but -RM: Uh-huh. They are really a once-in-a-lifetime thing. The -- the Prince
William Sound where the Exxon Valdese occurred is, uh, rather dangerous water, uh,
and much more treacherous than California waters.
Female: Uh-huh.
RM: So the likelihood of such a spill is much lower, but if it occurs, there's
nothing really these types of response ships or anything could do once it -Female: That much.
RM: -- really gets going, you're gonna have, uh, you know, a fairly significant
effect. If you have the response quickly, you could reduce it somewhat, but it still would
be equivalent of one of the voyager type of impacts that I have described.
How many of you can remember hearing about oil spills in California? What -what was the last spill that you can remember hearing about? Dave, do you remember
any?
Dave: I can't remember -RM: Uh-huh.
Dave: -- what was. It seems like there was one a couple years ago, just scenes on
the news of them washing off birds and that kind of thing, but you didn't hear anything
about it, a week after.
RM: Yes. Jean?
Jean: Same response.
50
RM: Bill?
Bill: Same.
RM: Susan?
Susan: I remember hearing about the -- there was -- there was one not too long
ago. Uh, I think it was last year over, uh, along ____________ coastline -Female: _______________
Susan: Uh-huh. Cause my daughter went over there as a volunteer to clean -RM: I see. Dolores?
Susan: -- Santa Barbara.
RM: Uh, anything that did say where it was?
Dolores: Yeah, I was up by Half Moon Bay and through there -RM: Uh-huh.
Dolores: And they showed quite a lot. It seems like it goes into -- you hear about
one and all the sudden, there's another one that occurs, and you hear about another one
which we've never heard before, but all the sudden, they appear one month after
another. It makes news, and that's where it goes.
RM: That's right.
Dolores: And then it's gone the following week.
Susan: And that's where it goes and then it's gone the folling week.
RM: Uh-huh. Tim, can you -Tim: No not really _______________
RM: Nope?
Male: Well, there was a tanker that broke in half outside of the Golden Gate a
couple years ago.
RM: Uh-huh.
51
Female: Oh, that's right.
Male: And then years back, the one that raised everybody's consciousness, was
the Santa Barbara spill.
Female: Uh-huh.
RM: That was quite a while ago.
Male: That was quite a while ago.
RM: And of course, that was from oil pipeline. Can you remember any others?
Male: Uh, if I'm not mistaken, they were looking for the culprit couple months
ago of an oil spill in the bay and they never found him.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Dorothy?
Dorothy: I just think they come and go, too.
RM: Yeah, but they -- the rubber -Dorothy: No.
RM: How about you, Richard?
Richard: Within the bay, uh, also there was, uh, there was -- I don't remember
the gallonage, but there was a significant spill that, uh, was identified, and you know,
they had the culprit ship. That happened uh, last week. There is a significant bay spill
on almost an every-other-day basis.
RM: Uh-huh.
Richard: This doesn't get reported, or it doesn't, you know, raise -- no little birds
or oil lovers or things like that, but -RM: When you's say "significant," are you referring to the ___________?
Richard: It would have to -- it would have to be significant in a sense that if
enough is being shoved to shore show up for the day conservation history which has
only like one person for every 17,000 miles shoreline, to know this and report as a spill,
52
significant.
RM: Okay. Nan?
Nan: Uh, I don't ______________
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Okay. Okay. Well, other -- any other comments before
going on, about the information? Susan?*
Susan: I would have liked to have had the information on the programs that we
have now -RM: Uh-huh.
Susan: -- before deciding whether to vote for this or not, because I would not go
to the poles and vote on something new to take the place of something that we have
already.
RM: Uh-huh.
Susan: Without knowing what it was that we already have that were trying to
replace. So you have the impression that this would take the place of -RM: So you have the impression that this would take -- this would take the place
of -Susan: -- or be in addition to.
RM: Well, that's a big difference.
Susan: That's what I would like to know. I would like to know, will it take the
place -RM: Uh-huh.
Susan: I'd like to know, what -- what do we have now.
RM: Yes.
Susan: Whether it's the cost of what we have now. Where does, uh, the money
for this come from? You know, how are we affected by this now, and how would this
53
program affect the program that's already in effect?
RM:
Uh-huh.
Okay.
Uh, you know, this would is be a _______ enough
information on that issue. Dolores?
Dolores: oh, I didn't feel that way at all. Cause when you first started out, you
know the way you had programmed it out, I thought it was very well put. You -- you
more less left it up to us to -- to decide good or bad on it and I thought you put it -- you're
very well -Male:
But, but, did I provide information about the present -- enough
information about the present program?
Dolores: Yeah. You just let it -- actually, you -- you -- I thought you did, cause
when he said something about the oil companies now are supposed to do it and we get
taxed for it, you know, it's _____________________ (voices talking) No, I thought he said
right away.
RM: Bill?
Bill: Yeah, I -- I agree with I didn't have enough information about the present
programs in effect and if I had known more _______________ uh, to evaluate.
RM: And what sort of information would -- would have been helpful to you?
Bill: Um, personnel, uh, equipment, uh, money that's spent by the government
and, um, being that we touched upon, the three types of various, uh, uh -- the specifics
in each of those also. And those same questions.
RM: Uh-huh. Jean?
Jean: We got information like with this -- the new response team would, uh, get
to the spill within two hours where right now, it's within 12.
RM: That's right.
Female: And that and then the oil company people themselves are the people
54
who take of it or pay for it.
RM: Yes.
Female: That seemed like about, most of the information you gave us.
RM: It's not enough for you?
Female: I'd like more. I'd like all the facts.
RM: I see.
Female: To be able to -(Laughter.)
Female: I'm an inquisitive person. I read everything on those ballots.
Male: But this wouldn't necessarily be an issue that -- that you'd have to vote on.
This -- this could be accomplished with legislature.
(Voices talking over one another.)
RM: -- come from a survey, where you have to be selective in the information, so
that's why it's helpful for me to know that more information would have been useful.
Jean?
Jean: The main reason I would like all the information is I think that a person
who writes up a program could, um, put the percentages and the numbers to go either
in their favor or not in their favor. It's very easy to take this -- this information and sway
it one way or another and to -RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Jean: I think it would be great to, like have you come in here and do this and have
someone else come in here and do this.
RM: Uh-huh.
Jean: And then we get, you know, a different view on it.
Male: Just the way he read it?
55
Female: Positive and a negative.
Female: Well, and it's not like you particularly showed it one -- you seem pretty
much right down the middle. It's hard to say which way, you know, you're for or
against yourself or how you're presenting it, but there may be somebody else who may
research it a little differently and get different facts.
RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Female: -- depending where they're coming from.
RM: Okay. Well, you'll be asked a few more questions on the last pages of the
handout and in a little -- in a minute or two. Uh, one of those questions asks you
whether, uh, you think that the information I was presenting you is, uh -- I forget the
exact wording -- pushing you one way or the other or leave it up to you to make a
choice, so, um, I'd appreciate your own, uh, judgments on that, to the extent that you -you can make 'em, cause it's, uh, it's helpful to know what -- how you saw it. Um, Dave,
you're nodding your head?
Dave: No just -- that's good that we provide you with that information.
RM: Okay. _________________. Um, okay. Other comments? All right.
Um, let me thank you very much for your help and for listening to the material
and giving me your frank opinions which is exactly what I wanted. Cause the purpose
of this enterprise really is to make it possible for citizens to -- to give their input, and uh,
that's what you've done.
So there are a couple of more pages right at the end, which ask you for some
personal information about yourselves. Please do not put your names on it, because
these -- the information that you give on the discussions and everything, um, will be
held confidential and will not be associated, uh, with your names, but it's just useful, to
get some information about you, uh, so we can know the background to the people who
56
take part in groups like this.
(Pause.)
And when you're finished, if you'd turn in your booklets and you're free to leave.
Female: Can I ask one more question?
RM: Certainly.
Female: Are we on candidid camera, cause that's a two-way mirror.
RM: It's a two-way mirror because candid camera -Female: People watching?
RM: There are, yes. It's an opportunity for other people that work with me to,
uh, get a chance to hear you, and they can relax and listen, whereas, I have to think
about who to call on next and um,
Female: __________________________
(Laughter.)
Male: Take notes.
RM: Uh, these types of groups are often for marketing purposes. They're also
confidential, have people sit around _______________ here, ________________ products
and it's a way for them to -Female: Definitely vote "no" knowing that now.
Male: What's that?
Female: Is this the oil company that put you up to this?
RM: Nope. 'fraid not.
Thanks.
Female: Thank you.
RM: Thanks. Thank you, Tim.
Female: Thank you very much.
57
RM: ____________ pencil.
(Voices talking.)
RM: That's why we have them stay quiet.
Female: ____________________.
Male: Would you like us to dispose of our name tags?
RM: Sure. Whatever you wanna do with it is fine.
Male: Okay. Thank you.
RM: Thanks. Thank you, Jean.
Jean: You're welcome. Thank you.
(Various muffled voices.)
RM: ________________
Female: ______________________ actually but, an automatic pencil. I started to
_________________.
(Voices talking.)
Female: Oop, here it is. Underneath the chair.
58