-,
·BEFOF..E THE INDIAN CLAIMS COMMISSION
THE PUEBLO OF SAN ILDEFONSO, ET AL._,
)
\
J
Petitioners,
-vsTHE ·UNITED STATES,
De:fendant.
)
)
)
)
)
}
}
TRANSCRIPT OF TESTIMONY
December 12, 1956
Santa Fe, New Mexico
DEARNLEY-MElER AND ASSOCIATES
SttltOTrPE IR£JIORT'EtnI
ALBUQUERQUE. NEW MEXICO
TE~ON& 3·CI.81
No. 354
11!Q!!
PETITIONER'S
~
DR.
Witness:
~
RE-DR.
RE-Ca.
JOE AGUILAR
6
1.7
25
28
ABEL SANCHEZ
33
45
53
54
DEARNLEY-MEIER
a
ASSOCIATES
tNCOllfl'OtltAttD
GEN£"AL LAW R£PORTEWS
ALBUQUERQUE -
3·""9"
...
SANTA
~
2-'859
l
BEFORE THE· nmtAN CLADD CQIImSS
THE PUEBLO OF SAB ILDEFOI~O. E'l~. )
Peti'tioners.
vs.
I
THE UNI'lED STATES.
I
Defendan't.•
".'
~
~_._.:'C
-;".__ ''"
I.
_
.-,BE· ITRElmMBERED 'tha't here'tofo
of -c8mber, l~56l.at 2:00 P. M., 'the aboY
hearing. oerore 'the Honorable La
of 'the Indian .Claias COIEission; that ap
·here'to .were" -entered as f~llows:
.on
Mr.
2)0 Park A_ _
New York:. ~ York:
rOl"the Pe'titioners:
Mr. JlicJtard ScIl1fter .
1100 I Street• •
lfashiDgtOll 6. D. C.
For the Defendan't:
******************
DE"RNL:EY·M£i£R 8< ASSOCIATES
U'tCORPOR-.no
G£N£RAt. L"w REfI'OR'R:WS
ALauQUE~QU£
3~6S91
• SANT. FE
2-1869
.~.
COMl>1ISSIONER 0 W.ARR:
Mr;. Schi1'ter,
e short statement as to the issues or 1'act involved here, 11'
JPu
will.
MR. SCHIFTER:
Yes, Your Honor.
May it please Your HOnor.
this 1s the claim of the Pueblo of San Ilde1'onao, one
or
10bll ao­
called Tewa pueblos, who have resided .In the area
for many hundreds of' years.
We have prev.1ously taken only br1.er
testimony in this docket number.
In the one preVious case, about
two years ago, }1r. Taf'oya, one or the witnesses f'or Santa Cl.ara
Pueblo at the time also testiried on the San llderonso case.
Today we £re concerned with our f'ull fledged case f'or the f'1.rst t
There are two cour-se a of acti6n stated in the pet1tion; only one
them will be covered today.
r
have discussed the second cauae
action and you will hear rrom us later on that.
of' action stated in this petit10n is a claim
The f'1.rst cause
by
Ildefohso based on original Tnd1an possession,
or
the Pueblo
orig~al
or sen
Indian
title, of an area lying basically in a southern and northern
direction from the Pueblo settlement itself.
This area,
.a
our
evidence will show, was occupied exclusively by san Ildef'onao
Indians and was used extensively by them since time immemorial,
and was used without any inter.ferance by the United Stlltes until
approximately the turn of the century, perhaps
1908.
someti~
around.
Our evidence will show that the first encoacblllent on
san
Ilderonso use of' the land they consider their own came as the re­
sult of the establishment of' the national f'orests
in the Theodore
,
Roosevelt administra~on. and f'or th~ r~rst'time there were rores
out there who told the San Ildefonso Indians that the land be10nge
OEARNLEY-MEIER 8: ASSOCIATES
INCORPORATED
Gl;t4ERAL LAW REPORTERS
ALBUQUERQUE
3-&691
-
S"NT" FE
2~'8&.
rs
· case
oUr
to the Federal Government instead ot tbam..
-
"
sUbstantiated bY' a substantial amount or .locumentary eyj.dence~
In 1908, a rather'extensive ethnograpuic study was made otthla
area whicb was published as the 29th Annual Report ot the Bu. . .:u
of American EthnologY'.
The study in
qUBst~rm
was made by Mr.
JOM Peabody Harrington and covered areas used and occupied by
San Ildetonso, and defines it pretty clearly.
About the same
time, or shortly thereafter, 1910, a very thorough investigation
of tbb condition or the Pueblo Indians was taken by the
sioner or Indian Affairs in this district,
}~.
C~&­
Abbott, and his
report of what he found was covered in the report to the Bureau
of Indian
At":ra~rs,
all CJf which will go into the record.
What we
will do today is introduce the oral testimony ot two of the ol.der
Sr.n Ildefonso Indians which supplements essentIally what w1.11 be
presented to the
Comm1sa~on
in documentary material.
aerore
calling our first witness I would like to add one more tact: Your
Honor will recall that in the previous cases -presented by the
Pueblo Indians which Your Honor beard t;hree and a hall 18&rs 1180.
we e.phasized that the Indians were interested in obta1nlDg
ra~her
than a money judgment.
We have explained the terms
la!'l"i
or
the Indian Claims Commission Act to them and have also expla1D8d
and. would like to explain it
n~w.
that we shall ask the Com­
mission for an interlocutory judgment or liability and for
judgment of use or area indicated here.
.e
shall then tr,- to
obtain some congressional legislation restoring to the Indians
those portions of the area in question here
w~ch
can be restored.
I should mention that one or the .u-eaa involved here is the
Los Alamos Atomic Energy area, and undoubtedly that 11111 not be
DEARNLEY-MEIER .. AS$OCIATiC:S
~"NcDttPCMt"TEr,
CkM~""L:
L". ItEPf)R1'ERS
ALBUQUERQUE
3-6691
-
S"_" FE
2-18$'
.'
for that
w~.
.
wiJ.I expect 1>0.
money judgment, but for the
the effort wilJ. be
come
back
rema1nder~h1ch 18 ri()W
Irlad.e
to
money.
COMMISSIONER 0 'MARR:
WheI"e 18 this land. Mr.
w:tth respect to the PuebJ.o?
MR. SCHIFTErl:
The Pueblo vlJ.J.age Is located in the north­
east corner of the area that 1s part of the claim.
1s part of the so-called Abraham Linco1:l Grant is the usual. scale
I should add that in 1928, the emigresa
in the northeast corner.
restored some of the area to the San Ildefonso Indlans, a scall.
strip of 5.000 acr.es, more or less, J.ylng about here;
of the pueblo grant.
By executive order, another area has.~
set asido for the San IJ.defonso Indians, knownas1;he
sacred~".
which iain a southwesterly direction from the San Ildef'onao
The ConiJression~lreservation really conatl.tU;~!
Puebl.o Grant.
-
88 good title
claim.
8S
they can get.
The claim does involve the rest of' the area.
COm-ITSSIONER c 1j>f.ARR:
,...:,.,."".::':,...:.­
no '.r--.~.
.... ..
Tbtr~tore, we shall. make.
however.•
Within that area you are
they have a grant, do they?
MR. SCHIFTER:
The y do ha va a grant. an original graltt . Ol'
11,000 acres.
COMMISSIONER OIItfARR:
MR. SCHIFTER:
Pueblo Lands
Boa~
'l'wy still have it?
They lost some of It in connection with
proceedings.
COMMISSIONER OI}1ARR:
But they did get
not included in the claim?
DE:ARNLEY·MEIER 8< ASSOCIATES
IfN'COttJ"ORATED
Gt!:N£1'tAl. l...AW ~'\"£Rs
"LBUQUERQUE. 3-6G9'
•
..
SANT" FE
2-'• •9
8
grant vb1ch 1s
1;be
MR .SCHIFTER :
That's
been
COMMISSIONER 0 'MARR:
MR. S0HIFTEB:
That is-correct.
map which will be introduced in ev1.dence .Is
of original Indian possession.
Tbe clai.m .Is that
grant and minus the reservation.
COM¥lISSIONER O'MARR:
I see.
¥1B.y I call your attention to the 1949 1egiiB,:.
MR. ROCHOW:
lation whereby the Roman Vigil tract of 5,913 plus acres was
intrust by the United States for San Ildafonso Pueblo, and
presume--what is your position as to that tract?
MR. SCHIFTER:
Where the land is held by the Un.1ted St;at;es
in trust for San Ildefonso Indians, we have no furtber
Where there is SA- executive order reserTat1.on, we
not fulltltle.
MR. ROC:\
MR. SCH
Will you point out Roman V.1gil'$
R:
The Roman Vig1.1 grant,
t~
ent1ire
the southwest area, the so-called sacred area, which .1s
the,area MIo. Rocnow has referred to, .1s a l'raction"or .It.
COMMISSIONER O'MiiRR:
Well, we are not concerned abOUt
today, except for the fact that it is .in the area.
MR. SCHIF'l'ER:
Yes.
When we try the :full casel' we vo'ulJd
plan to outline the exact boundaries of tho various tracts
bere including just what is ABC land.
MR. ROCROW:
Then" in our porpoaed t'ind.ings, we must elbd­
nate the tracts about which there is no question?
COMMISSIO:NER 0 'MARR: And you can agree on the boundar.1es
them?
DEARNLEY-MEIER •
ASSOC.....TES
ItNCOf;;:-pgwATl:O
G£~R"L
t...... R£foORTEftS
ALBUOUERQUE
"3-6."
."'NT... FIE
2-'8.'
or
Yes.
COMMISSIODR 0IMAO:
l"Etca~1
~ed.· By tbe
Very we1l.
that any test1monywas taken be1'ore me",
MR. HOCROW:
Commiss10ner Holt was thereon that
MR. SCHIFTER:
In this part1cu1t:r.,case, you have not
testimony before, but you were out here i.dree and
and you heard
testim~ny
on other cases, including Santa Clara £0
the north.
yes.
0
MR. ROCROW:
One witness was heerd by Co:lmd.s"sioner
September
,~:
on,
COMMI~SIONER
1954, just three or .four pages of testimony,
than.that.
MR. SCHIFTER:
Ii' I may summarize it, this was a
C·"f'
Indian .testifying on Snat8 Clara boundaries,
.fact tbet Santa Clara and San lldei"onso. adjoin, we had him
San.' iidetons~ case to make a reco!"din 'cthe San lldefonso
lIh1ch heidenti1"ied .the San Ilde1"onso north boundary and
Clara south boundary•.
COMMISSIODR O'1"'.ARR:
MR. SCHIF'l'ER:
All r1ght~
YOll
may proceed.
As our 1"irst witness, we will. ca1l Hr.
JOE AGUILAR,
a witness, of law1"ul'age, having been .first duly sworn, tesw:f'ied
as .follows:
BY MR. SCHIF'l'ER:
Q Will you please state your name?
A
Joe Aguilar, born in San Ilde.fonso.
CEARNLEY.MEIER
a:
ASSOCIATES
'NCORPOftATED
G£N£:"Al LAw 1t£POInE1ts
ALBUQUERQUE
SANTA F£
3~GI69'
2-1 • • 9
Q. Whenwil-e you born, Mr.
A
In 1898·.
MR. ROCHOW:
When?
A
1898.
"
And where were you born?
A
In San I1defonso Pueblo.
Q
Have you lived in and around the pueblo all your
A Yes, sir•
.Q
Can you tell us wM.re you want to school?
A
I went to school at Santa Fa Indian School.
Q
Santa Fa Indian School?
A Yes, boardL,g school.
Q HOWl1lUCh schooling do you have.!
A We 11, . I only went· flva ,ears.
Q
Can you tell us roughly when that was'l
A That was in 1910 •
.Q
as
Unt1.l 19l5?
A
Yes.
~
When you talk about the people in your generation
Y'0U
are now, was there anyone else that had that much
as much as· you had?
A
Just a couple had school at that time.
Q.
What kind of schooling did most of' the people L, yoU!"
group have?
A Mostly they went down to the Indian 3cnool.aome_·Juat to
the sev\nth grade, I think.
Q.
Hhw many years did they go?
OEARNLEY ·MEIER 8: ASSOCIATES
ftitCORPCRiIrona
GENIERa.L LI\.W REpOt.TEW5
ALBUQUERQUE
SANTA FE
3-6.9"
2-1869
~A
• What did you say?
Q(
How many years did they go to school?
A P,,:,obably about seven years because it was just
every year.
Q
No~
when youlert school, about how many or the
grown-up people, could speak English in your pueblo?
A
When I was growing up, I think only :fo1ll"or :five speak a
little English those days.
("t
Did anyone or them have any schooling?
A
Yes, there were :four or :five men who had schooling.
Q
They had been to school?
A
Q
\'\es.
Now do you know where the .fence of' the
san
is today?
. A- Today?
,
Q
Yes.
A
Yes.
Q
Is that on your abraham Lincoln Grant?
A
-That is on the abraham Lincoln Grant, yes.
(~
a0MI~1QlIER
O'MARR:
What grant?
',
MR .. SCHIFTER:
They call it the Abraham Lincoln Grant be­
caus, the patent issued in that administration.
~
Do you remember roughly when that rence was
b~lt?
A
I think it was built somewhere in 1928 or 1930, around
there.
~
Now, when we talk about toe .fence on the west side "8Ild-'"
the south side, is that where the people of'
',_.. ".
DE"RNLEY-MEIER &
ASSOC1"TES
-INC.O"POftIl'T£D
G£N£''''..L LAW R £ ~
"LBUQUE!tOU£ .:
3-t5i691
.
S"NTA FE
2.'8• •
~an
Ildefonso conalde
d
· the boundary of the 1r land?
A
Nojo they don't consider that the boundary, but tbe whole
area back of 1t.
Q
Now, the land on the other side to-the west and south,the7
consider their land, too?
A
They consider their land too, yes.
Q
Now, going back to the time when you were a boy, did the
Beop~e
of San Ildefonso treat the land--at that time there was no
fence, I
suppose-~d1d
they treat the land on the other side as
the ir own land?
A
Yes in those days they treat it as their own land because
they to:td us it was our Land , belonged to San Ildefonso.
<
MR. SCHIF'l'ER:
With Your Honor' s permission, I vou1d like
to read into the record a page excerpt 1"romthe document which wi.
sUbsequently be introduced in full.
It i:; a letter 1"rom the
Secretary ot Interior of the United. States to the secretary
AgricnlturG, dated September 1, 1911, and
reterr~
or
to conditl0D8
among the so-called pueblo Indians and here Is the quote: -Betore
the forest reserves were established,
stock freely upon the adjacent lands, cut wood ror domestic and
commercial purposes, and by conabant, use came to reel an
right to the :free use of the territory.
ab801u~
The establishIT.ent or the
forest reserve which precludes the grazing ot outside cattle and
the distribution of wood
~Ulder
permits issued by the forest
superVisor, and the marking of new boundaries on land they had
come to look upon as their own, naturally perplexed these ignorant
!'cople."· we are now talking about the time that is
OEARNLEY .MEIER 8< ASSOCIATES
41"'CORPOR"nC
GENPI"L l.."w RE:PORttRS
A~BUOUEROUE.~
3-669'
.
SANTA FE
2-1869
~rerred
to
>,
-----~·r
- .... ~..- ----­
7ij;e52,,'
e;p
in this letter to the Secret",ry
land he is rete.t"ring to.
Q
When you were a young boy. did you have
.acquainted with that area about which the Secretary speaks
which you grazed cattle and cut wocd tor domestic purpobes
considered your own?
A
Yes, sir, my :Cather in those days used to have cows and we
used to go around there, and take care or the cattle once a month.
round them
up~
Q Now do you remember appror.imate1y how much cattle there
was in your rese"at10n at that ti!ne.--you were 10 or 12 years
old.
A
If' I remember, I think 200 or 300 cattle. the Indians used
to have 1n there.
Q
And other ~ls?
A Wild horses used f'or t~!lfl.1n&.hol'aes·axid.b1Ii'*•••
~
How many borses did you havej
A
Say maybe
Q
f
.and how many burros?·
50,
I guess, used 1n thras~ng wheat.
A Maybe twenty or more.
COMMISSIONER 0 'MARR:
Who owned the livestock, the ind1.­
v.1dual Indians or the tribe?
A No, the· individ lals.
COMMISS10 NER 0 '}!ARR :
They haulad wood w:'th those •
.
Did the ae Indians, did the Y have
marks to tell which was theirs?
A
The Indian' brand.
COMMI~SIONER O'}~RR:
A
Catt a and
~orses
On the cattle and horses, too?
too.
DEItoRNLEY·MElER
a
ItoSSOClltoTES
tNCO"P'Oft"TI:D '
Ge;NIEItllt.L LAW REf"OII'\~"S
ALBUQUERQUE 3~66"
S.NTA
~E
2-1869
.\
COMMISSIONER
I~
O'MA~:
I see.
You indicated you helped your .father at the
,
care o.f the cattle that were sent to pasture?
A
Yes.
Q How many head did your .family have altogether?
A At the time, I think aboun, my 1'ather had about 35·head or
cows.
Q
So he was one 01' t1">e larger cattle OW!lers' in the pUeblo!
A Maybe, yes.
Q
When you went put, did you also look a1'ter the cattle 01'
some 01' the other Indians in the pueblo?
A
Yes, once in a .hile we come in contact with some other
animals belonging to other Indians, and- when we come home we
notified them, like' Santa Clara, two or three which
belo~d
to
them, and we passed the word to them.
Q In other words, sometimes YOl.., had strays coming
Santa Clpra area?
a
Yes.'
Q And when those strays came ion, you noti.fied-­
A
(Interrupting) 1'he governor.
Q The governor or Santa Clara?
A
Yes.
Q
An~
A
And they sent a couple or men maybe, and they go up ana. we
what happened then?
tell them where we saw the cows and if
t~ey
round them up.
Iq'.
And they wo';.la take them where?
A
To Santa Glara.
DE...RNLEV-MEIER 8< ASSOCIATES
INCORPOR~T£O
GE....ER...L L.Aw RE'PORTI:RS
ALBUQUERQUE '
3-669'
..
SANTA FE
2-1869
belong to them.. 1;"7
,.,~-
.
Q Take them into their own land?
A
Yes.
Q
Now when you were a young boy,
then you became
'<6
with the
ar~a ~
which the cattle were being grazed?
A When I was a young boy, my father used to tell me,
me around, where the boundary l"'nes used to be.
Q
Can you tell me whose land use d, .to lie to the north
o~
San Ildefonso land?
A
On the north lies Santa
Reservation.
Cla~
Q And whose land lies on the east?
A
On the east side is the Pojoaque and the Tesuque.
Q
And south?
A
South is Cochiti.
Q And what is the boundary on the west aide'!
A
'l'iuf west side is the Baca location and the Vaile Grande.
Q Also known as the Jemez Mountains?
A
Yes, the Jemez }!cuntains.
Q.
Can you det'ine for purposes
of
the record, these. bouridar1.ea
more clearly, in terms of la~e landmarks--I want to start
v1th
the nortt.east corner of your San Ildef'ons,o Claim--I shall m1oro'"
duce into evidence then a map which will be Plaintift"s Bxb1blt
CC'MMISSIONER 0 'MARR:
MR. SCHIFTER:
Your Honor, it is a geological Survey map.
COM!lISSIONER O'MARR:
1"'iR. SCHIFTER:
Is this your Map?
It is a
petitioner~s
Exhibit I, it 5.s a
exhibit?
geologi~Ql
map consisting
of twelve maps pieced together.
MR.ROCHOW:
And you will ask leave to withdraw l.t to reCEARNLEV·MElER 8: ASSOCIAIES
:tNCORPOftAT£D
G£1'lI£""'L LAw R£PORTERS
~LBUOUEROUE
3-45691
,
SANTA
F~
2-18&9
\.
-~-.-
-----:::_­
*,.
produce it?
r1R.
SCHIFTER:
Ir I may, yes.
COHNISSIONER 0 'l1JI.RR:
MR. ROCHOW:
No objection.
COMMloSIONER 0 'HARR:
!cI.
Is there any objection?
It will be admitted.
All right, can you start in the northeast corner and will
you .define the various points?
A Well, starting with Red Hills and follow down and on the
oth8~
side of Black Mesa.
Q
Other . side';";"you mean north side?
A
North side,
Q
Along the renee?
A
And across the Rio Grande; then go to Chupadero along
Q
That is Chupadero Canyon?
A
Chupadero Canyon, and down to l-7hat we call the Ll8llito.. and
yes.
there
then come way up to Guaje Canyon.
Q
On which side of Guaje Canyon?
A
The other side.
Q
-You mean the north side?
A
Yes.
Then come eleal" up there and on top of the Guaje
Mountain up there.
Q
What is the San Ildefonso name .for that mountain?
A
We call it Tsi Sosping--ping is "mountain".
And then come
along this way-­
"
Q
(Interrupting)
Which way.. which direction?
A
South, to the
Q
About how .far south would you say that is f'rom Cerro Pilon?
oerr~ ~ilon.
DEARNl..i::Y.MEIER 8c ASSOCIATES
'NCORPOtiIATED
GENERAl. L"w "'£POtI1'ntS
AL8UQU£RQU£
3~669'
....
SANT~
FE
2-1869
...
y.
A
Probably somewhere. 10 or 15 miles south. and .from there
we w,ent on-­
Q
(Interrupting)
When you say ten or .fl1"teen miles. which
way do you walk. up and down?
A
Walk in the mountains.
Q Do you have any idea as to how :tar it is when the crow :fl.1.
that is, straight?
A
No; we came up to Pajarito Mountain and then we go and cut
down to Peleos. down there someplace, and then
the end down to Powawi Ping, mountain.
got down to Rito de los Frijoles. and
line along the ridge of the canyon.
'Q.
de
108
A
On your side, the north side. in other words. of the R1.to
Frijoles?
Yes. and follow -the cliff' along clear down to the water!'a
Q Where is that?
A
Down the Rio Grande at the Rito de los Frijoles
goes into the Hio Grande.
wb.e~
From there follow up n.:""t;h again
the Rio Grande and get to a place called A"yunge.
to the ca..iltio, the corner there.
(Interrupting)
A
This side.
Q
west?
A
South-­
Q
Southwest?
A
Yes.
Where is 'that f'rom Buckman's s1te!
Q
When you say up, what would that be?
From there up .to Canada ancha ,
Oe:ARNLEY.MEIER •
ASSOCIATES
i"COltPORATED
G£NER",,- L,,'W
~
ALBUQUERQUE • SANTA
3~6S'1
.
~
.2,418.'
~10Dg
From there get
From there turn over-­
Q
it
A
Maybe kind ot east south.
Q
Southeast?
A
Yes.
Then we went up to Canoncito and then cut. on over to
the side ot Canoncito and hit Canada Ancha, and tollow Canada Arlc
C~libaza
•
Canada, and follow the Canada Ca11baza until we get to
top at the corner, and fzoorn there-­
Q
(Interrupting)
Where is that?
A
At the time, the
Q.
And about where would that be?
A
What we ea 11 it, the Kas oge in our language.
Q
And where would that be from the point we
A .
Way over there somewhere.
co~r
over
the~e.
~tarted
out?
Q In :what direction?
A .
Sou~h.
Q Straight south?
A
Right straight south and then straight nort:b and hit the
corner again with
~esuque
and Pojoaque, line.
COMMISSIONER 0 'MA.~:
Are you !"ollowing
t~
top of
S.»8
mountains theN on the south side '/
A
There is no mountains aropnd
COMMISSIONER 0 'MARR:
the.re~
just little hll1B.
Well, the crest of some hills or
something?
MR. SCHIFTER:
Your Honor, which areas are you referring 1;0
COl-1MISSIONER 0 'MARR:
The south part, until the,r get 1;0
tba t point there.
MR. SCHIFTER:
A
.Ye:l, could you identify this?
That is a canyon, the Rio Granda canyon.
OEARNLEY-MEIER 8: ASSOCIII.TES
I"'COR~RATED
G£wEftJil.L
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3-669'
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And this here is what?
A
That is the Rio Grande. isn't it?--!io. no. that is the
Frijoles.
Now tr..ey call it Bandelier.
COM}U~SrONER
O'MARR:
And then irom the southern point
there. what do you follow :from there to the next point?
A
The Rio Grande. clear. up there.
COI'1}IISSIOI-lER O'f-1ARR:
A
Does it have a name?
Canada Ancha, and way up there we call it Canoncito.
MR. ROCROW:
A
southea~t;t->; :;c .. _·~"
From that point southeast you t"ollow a dry arroyo.
COMMIi:)SIONER 0 'MARR:
A
And ;Crom that po1.nt
Which means little canyon?
Yes. little narrow canyon, and
on the
other si.de ot" that;
you hit Canada Ancha , a wide open place until.. we hit up. there.
Q The point that has been ref'err&d to is identit"ied on the
map as Calle de 1 Rio Canyon?
A
Yes , there Is a
COMMIi:)SIONER
sp~1ng
o I Mi'.RR:
ther&.
And then there is an arroyo t'rom
there to the southeast corner?
AYes. and there is a wide open place, and f'rom here ~
follow the Calibaza Canyon this way.
MR. ROCROW:
A
An a1919oyo is a dry ridge?
Yes, "just in the sp191ngtL'11G when the
19ai~
comes. the vater
runs.
Cm-OOSSIONBR O'}{ARR:
A
And .from there you go northY
A straight line over to the Santa Clara corner. the
Pojoaque and Tesuque line, this is the Ppjoaque Creek in here.
Q
Now, M1'. Aguilar, as 1'ar as you
lmow~
,,"- ..
DEAftNLEV-MElER •
ASSOCIATES
'NC::~"T£D
" ... , .R£rOR,.,ftS
G£!tt£" .. t..
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at any of tbe timoa
·".
you are familiar with it, did any other Indians come-in and
tilis area, other than, let's say the strays trom Santa Clara!
A No, Just San Ildetonso used that land.
Q
Just San Ildefonso?
A
Yes.
MR. SCHIFTER:
That is all.
CROSS-EXaMINATION
BY-MR. ROOROW':
Q
I have a tew questions to ask you, Mr. Agullar: I want to
go around these boundaries with you.
Thia eastern boundaq in­
dicated by a red line onPlaintifr's Exhibit 1, what ia there
peCUliarly about this eastern boundary which makes it
80
stra1.ght,
are there any special monuments there that ;rou know of'?
.A
Yes, we have names, if you want me to, I can
J1lUDIll
them.
There is a place called Maruje Keva.
Q
That is not a cave, is it?
A
No, K-e-w..a, Kelia.
MR. SGHIFTER:
Can you translate it int" English!
A
Maruje Is some kind of trses, red bark on it, and Keva on
Q
Does the eastern line follow the ridge
A
No, i t is just a l1ttlo hill, the ar,..oyo runs down this
Q
But I am talking about the east line.
A
'l'hat is what I mean.
Q
This line doesn~t go toward the top of the hill., then!
A
No, it goes in "s: line in here.
top.
or the
hill!
way.
The arroyo runs down this way.
The Tesuque I think run
DE...RNLEY-MEIER 8: ASSOCIATES
ofNC01tPOR4TEb
GDiI£"A1. LAW REPctn:Ews
...LBUQ\llEfOQUE:
S .....T ... FE
3,&&"
2-1869
f~
their line there somewhere and Po~oaque in there.
Q
But . there is no special -markers all scattered -along
eastern line?
A
No marks except the names.
that ie where the line goes
Q'
How
d~d
Over here we call it
downacros~
the
PoJ~ue.
you learn the eastern boundapy?
A We learn when we became of'f'icers-and when we hav6 council
meetings they_talk about land, some of' the older ~n in
We ask them questions about where used to be the old
the
line~
Q Were you governor of' San 11def'on80?
A
Yes.
Q
When were you governor?
A I became governor in 1925.
Q
You are now 59
A
Fifty-eight.
year~
old?
Q,When is your birthday?
A
November l.st.
Q
Now, Mr. Aguilar, some of' thE. markers and Spanish land
grsn1.s that I am going to ask about are not shown on this Exhib1t
1, but I want to ask you about them.
/
A
Yes.
Q
You are not claiIlling the Pojoaque Pueblo Grant;- are you?
A No.
Q That is outside your area to the east?
A
To the east.
Q And the Tesuque Pueblo Grant is southeast outside your
grant, is that right?
OEARNLEY-MEIER 8< ASSOCIATES
'NCOft-1"ORAT£t)
(;£NatAL. L". 1t£PORttRS
ALBUQUERQUE • SANTA FE
3·6691
.2-'.S9
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Q How about Jacona Spanish Grant?
A
Jacona is right be tween there.
Q
Is that in your boundary at all?
A
No, our boundary is bere
Jacons is a strip along
~nd
here
somewhere (pointing).
Q Jacona Grant, then, is outside the area?
A
Yes, it is "outside.
Q And it is to the east?
A
Yes.
Q Roman Vigil Grant is within the area, but some or that you
have been given title to by the Government, or it is held in truat
ror you, is that true?
A
Yes.
Q
But not all or it.
And Bandelier National Monument 13 vlt;h
in the area, isn't it?
A
Bandelier Monument is in the Cochiti, down hers.
Q Is that all outside the areat
A
Yes, this is our land.
Q "And Bandelier National Monument is without the area, is 1t1
"MR. SCHIFTER:
A
There are two-­
(Interrupting) One is over here.
Q" One is outside, the one within the area is marked, northern
Bandelier area is within the land you are claiming?
A
Yes.
Q
lre~you":
A
No, we are right on top or the mountain in the Irlddle there
claiming a part or Baca Location No.1 on U. . .at
Q Does your boundary go into Baes Location NQ. I?
DEARNLEY_MEtER
a:
ASSOCIATES
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ALBUQUERQUE
3-'669'
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2-1869
-,
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A
No~
~
In other words, you think it goes about
I don't think so.
of Beca Location No. 11
A
Yes, to the eastern edge.
Q
The f! anta Clara Indians are to the north of you, aren't
they?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
And of course you are not claiming anything invo1v!ng the
Santa Clara Pueblo Grant?
A
No, we·are not.
Q
Well now, thi:J land to the north in the northeastern
portion is really your pueblo grant and that is about the best
land for 1'arm.ing and grazing in the old tract?
tbere~
A
No sir, it's nothing but hills over
Q
This is where you are living noiol, in the northeast-­
A
(Interrupting)
No, we. are l!.ving here (lndicaf;1ngJ, this
is all in the hills over there.
Q
We can't raise anything there.
Where do you have your farms now?
. A . .Along tbe edge of the river.
Q
The Rio Grande?
A
Yes.
Q
On both sides of'thS Rio Grande?
A
Yea.
Q
And, your grant covers both sides!
A
Yes, the grant is on both sides, ,both land on these aldes.
Q
And your San Ildefonso Reservation is s.et aside Tor 7011
and is to the west of the grsnt?
A
A
n there
that much.
OEARNLEY.MElER. ASSOCIATES
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COMMISSIOHER O'MARR:
~servation
Q.
Does the
A
You mean this?
Does it join the
join the granton the west?
Q No" this "is in your claim, the reservation in here, tbet
come together, don't they?
or
A
Yes.
~
Wel}. now" this land that is in the western part, over mOst
this area you are claiming".is that part
or
the Santa Fe
National Forest?
A
It was at one time.
Q Isn't it today?
A I don't know.
Q Doesn't that indicate it is rarest 1and?
A
The AEC has the whole thing now.
Q
Here it is marked nSant;a Fe National Forest"" indl.cating
printing in the western part
A
or
the map?
Yes.
MR~"" SCHIli'TER:May
I clariry this?
COMMISSIONER 0 'MARR:
I think that Is Bandelier Batlonal
Monument to the south.
MR. SCHIFTER:
If I may clar1:t"y that, as I ll1entioned
~tt
the record beror-e , the area Mr. i.guilar has "In mind has not beeD
indicated on the map" probably for security reasons.
When he
says this is ilEG, it is AEG" but the map doesn't show it becaWile
although it was made recently, it does not seem to be Atomic
Energy Installation land.
MR. ROCROW:
Is that what you said, AEG?
DEARNLEY.MEIER 6. ASSOCIATES
INCOftPORA.TED
GENIEPt"L LAw REPCR1"£RS
ALBUQUERQUE - SANTA n:
3-669'
2-1869
·,
COMMISSIONER 0 'MARR:·· What does it mean?
MR. ,ROCROW:
Atomic Energy Commission.
COMMI::>SIONER 0 'l'..ARR:
on,
I think this land office map
that you bJlvej
MR. ReCROW:
Your Honor, shows the Santa Fe" National Forest goes allover thl.s
area.
COMMISSIONER O'MARR:
this map I have.
That is the way it is outlined on
The western part of it is principally Bandelier
National Monument. ,
MR. SCHIFTER:
MR. ROCROW:
It is both, You Honor.
And that is within the Santa Fe Rational
Forest.
·lo.·
(OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION.)
Q
Now, you mentioned that the Cochiti lands are to the sout;h
of the lands ,you are claiming?
A
Yes, this way.
Q
Well the Cochitis didn't come up that way, did toe 7'
A
well, they claim they lived by the ruins at Bandelier
Canyon.".
Q
I am showing you a map put out by the Department or toe
t_
Interior in 1936, and it shows various pueblo land grants and
Spanish grants, and Cochiti is quite some distance sout;h
or
aNa you are claiming, do you notice that!
A
well, that is what they say.
I know the ceremonial and
kiva in Fl'tjoles Canyon, I don't know if you have seen it or &ot-­
Q
No, I haven't.
A
Tr.e ruins in the Bandeliel" Canyon, they say Cochitis lived
DEARNLEY.MEIER •
.
ASSOCIATES
.,.CDRPQRATED
GENIERA"" LAW ~'I'Uni
ALBUQU~RQUE -~
3-&&'.
SAN~A ~
2-'8&9
dow.n there, I don't know.
well, we won't be concerned w1.th that.
Q
Are
,"OU
f'amll1ar
with the Cilja del Rio Grant?
A
It must be this .one here--is it?
Q
Yes.
Rion~
It says, "Caja del
~Vell
now, the lands
claim simply go asrar as Caja del Rio and not into it, is
,"OU
~bat
right?
A
That's right.
Q
I
jus t want to be sare, because we are golilg into some of'
these Spanish Grants.
A
You seem to be going between them.
Q
The Santa Clara Indians and the San Ilde.fonso Indians being
neighbors are good rriends and have been for centuries, haven't
the,-?
A
oa, yes.
Q
And the pasture land in this area, within the boundarie.
,-ou are
cla1.ming~
as well as to tbe north, didn't santa elarsand
San Ildef'onso Indiapsuse
t~t
in common for
~be
grazing or tbe1P
cattle?
A
They used to before 1.t was fenced, but now when they put
a fence, they put up cattle guards.
Q
But in years
A
Yes.
Q
Before you we!"e born?
A
Yes.
Q
Haven.'t you learned by tradition that both of' them grazed
gOt....
by.
over the entire north area with their cattle, it was a common
DEARNLEY.MEIER 8< ASSOCI....T ES
1lIICORPOR-'TED
GI;NEft-'L L ... Ih:fIlOR1"£ftS
ALBUQUERQUE
SANTA FE
3~6S91
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up
practice, wasn 1 t i t 1
A
Yes.
COMMI~SIONER
OIMARR:
When was the f'enee
north boundary of' the area you are claiming?
A Since 1928 or 1930, around there.
Q
And that f'ence was constructed around the entire pueblo
grant and the
or was it just the pueblo grettt Y
rese~vation,
A
Just the pueblo grant.
Q
Is t1an Ildefonso Reservation, I don't mean the grant, the
reservation west .of this grant, is that i'enced to keep peop1e out?
A
Yes, i t is fanced.
Q
Is that fenced, too?
A
Yes, all the way ar-ound ,
Q
In other words, the· grant- and the reservation is
A . Yes.
Q .Are you familiar with the Cuyamungue Grant?
A
Yes.
Q.
That is outside your area, too?
A
Y'es, way up here.
Q
To the east?
A
Yes, up this way.
Q
I t seems that all the Spanish grants are outside the area
except for Ramon Vigil, and I don't know how Bandelier National
MnmL"'llent 1s set up.
MR. SCHIFTER:
A
It was set up in 1916.
I think the way they got that, there is more ruins along
there.
DEARNLEY-MEIER 8c ASSOCIATES
lltCORPORAo.£D
G£'N£RAL LA". lREPcR'I1E.ftS
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How many
Q
people~re
presently members of' the San Ilde:tonao
Pueblo?
A A little over 200, I guess, now.,
Q.
You have been more or less a pueblo ol';wo or three
hundred
for a long, long time J :for many, l!I8DT=,jears?
A
Yes.
MR. ROCHOW':
That is all I have.
BY MR. SCHIFTER:
.:
Q
There are just two points I would like tc covel': i.et'. alk
about your west boundary :for a moment.
'When you look toward tbe
-.'
weEot, would you say your west boundary is a natural boundary?
In
other words, can you point to something on the horizon, some
mountains or other landmarks, that designate your west 'boundary?
A
Well, just like we call thePalejo where the boundal'7 line
goes down to .carre Pilon.
Q , In other words, i1' you are standing someplace and
somebody where the west boundary
A
is~
show
howllould you descrJ.beJ.t?
I would say, see the big mountain over to the side, JOu
would have to go so many miles, so many trees that JOu can't; see
it.
Q
So the mountains are your boundary, the nat.ural boundary'
A
Yes. sir.
Q
Do you know exactly where the Baea Location boundar,. I.8f
A No, I don't.
Q.
Q
I would like to ask you about something elae: when you
young boy and your people would graze cattle, where did theT
DEARNLEY.MElER 8< ASSOCIATES
'NCORfIoOR"T£D
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keep the cattle in the winter?
C:';-_.-'"
A
Along here, at this, along tp~ Pajarito Plateau.
Q
And in the apr-Lng , let us say, wlle.toe did they taka the
cattle?
In the springtime" they bring them on this side, along the
A
plains.
Q
Can you mention the name ot: that?
A
Along Buckman area, up this way.
Q
And when you took the cattle across the Rio 'urande, where
did you take it?
AWe take them on top or the. canyon and on top or there, tbBy
know where to go.
Q
In other words," you would take the cattle into the canyon,
"to the west, and
"A
th~
They go over to Llano Largo.
~hey
would be' grazi:lg on the canyon?
And the.y know just wheL"e to
:r~d
water, there is lo'"2.ter in
canyon.
~
In those canyon?
A
Yes.
Q
Did the Santa Clera people come over on this side and pu1;
cattle into your canyon?
come way up at the head of' the Guaje C&n7on
A
Mos·...:Ly the
Q.
And they would be strays?
A
Yes, coming to the watep.
CO:fS
Q In the Guaje Canyon in here (indicating)?
A
Yes.
Q Did the Santa Clara people come over and turn their catt1e
loose in the Guaje Canyon or i'urther down in Pajat<ito Ganyon, eli:!
they come down-­
DEARNLEV -MEIER .. ASSOCIATES
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ALBUQUERQUE 3-6691
~
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,.. ....
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,
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rar~
A
(Interrupting) Not too
that is too rare
Q
Wh~re
A
110stly in the Guaje Canyon.'
Q.
Up here?
A
Yes, along the Chupadero and the
did they graze their cattle?
Llanitos~
along there.
Q That is on the Santa Clara Grant?
A
Yes.
Q
&~d
A
Yes~
strays would come sometimes
L~to
your area?
because there is water down there.
Did you eve!' take your cattle and
t~'"'n
thew
, ----
.LUU;,;,O
tilB
Santa Clara Creek?
A
No, we didn't.
Q
But you might heve strays up
A
We might have.
Q
So~
words~
in other
turning cattle loose for
tber~?
the Santa Glara people, when it came to
grazi!'~,
would turn it loose on the-santa
Clara Creek?
\
A
Yes~
and grazed them on those mountains.
Q And you would turn yours-­ A
(Interrupting.) This way•.
Q Where, in Guaje and Pajarito Canyon?
A Guaje and Pajarito, all throush the Sandia Canyon and Los
Alamos
Canyon~
Q When
~~.
all in there.
rlochowwas talking before ahout the Santa Claras
and the San Ildefonsos using this land, you were talking about the
matter of strays goins on both sides, stray cattle?
A
Yes.
•
11'),SlI+:la
all
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28
RE-CROSS-E~~INATION
BY MR. ROGHOW:
Q
M~.A@Pl1ar,
has the tradition of San Ildefonso taught you
anything about the Spanish policy or use or this pasture land
:rtr
grazL.'1g--you mow the Spanish used to have this country before the
United States or }fuxico did?
A Yes.
Q
Have you lear-ned ...anything about that in the traditlono:f
your people?
-A
No, I guess not.
Q When I was talking to you before,_ I wasn1tinterested. in
the land in the southern pB.r>t.
I wss only talking about land
within your borde.r>s on the north since Santa Glara people are
directly north or you.
A Yes.
Q
And I got the impression that the Santa Clara people and
San Ildei'onso people, being fI"iendly pueblo Indians, used this
northa.r>n area north or your line and south or
;rOUl"
11.ne 1.n
common, because it was all good grazing land, and the cows vou1.dn'
know any boundar-y lines, would they?
A No.
Q
But didn't they use it together, indicating the northern
area, north and south of the line on the map?
MR. SCHIFTER:
. people or their
COYS
M..'l. ROGROW:
Gouldn1t we clarl.ry whether the santa Clara
used it; I thl.?J.k thaI'e 1.s a difference
liell, if the cows used it, they certaJAly be­
longed to Santa Clara o.r> ::lan .Ildef'onso Indians.
,,10"'''' ",.. "",1,.,
T m.. "',.,
GENEW"L LI\w RIEfI'OtI'fE'RS
ALBUQUEROUE
3-6691
•
lRfben I sa.y Sanbl
theil'" anill.a.ls under Santa Clara supervisl.on-­
DEARNL.EV-MEIER a: "SSOCI"TES
INCOft.-ow"no
....
theN.
SAN~.
Fa
2-1869
,..
.....,..,
.p
is that correct, Mr. Aguilar?
Let me say that you are mixing the two thingl
MR. SCHIFTER:
up.
mow
As you say, the cattle don't
where the boundary was, but
I think Mr. Aguilar testified bef'ore where they turned them loose.
There is a difference.
I recognize there are strays going both
waya.
MR. ROCHOW:
Well, when the
Sar~ta
C1aras grazed their
cattle, they pr.obab1y turned them 100ae in Santa Clara Cmyon and
the San lldel'cnso people turned their cattle loose west of' where
they were living, is that true?
A
Yes.
Q.
But did the herders of the Santa Clara and the San Ildef'ons(
people, they mixed and were l'riendlY.,and allowed their cattle to.
use the are a north and south of the boundary iD. common. didn't
they?
A
No, I don't think so.
Q
Well. do you lmow?
A
No. but I heard :from my fathers and the men who had cows.
Q
How :far back does your knOWledge go?
A
My father died 11 years ago and he used to tell me because
he owned a grpat many cows.
Q Has your tradition definitely taught you
anyt~g
as to
who used this land and who didn't?
A
San Ildef'onso used it and Santa Clara used their own.
Q And Santa Clara never came down?
A
No, they never came down.
Q
But they were good rriends of' yours?
A
They never came down.
DEARNLEY.MEIER
a
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30
.Q Only when their cattle strayed in?
A Only when their cattle strayed, and we would notify the.
and if ours go on the other side, they would notll"y us and we wou1d
bring ours back.
Q
We never had any trouble.
As soon as you saw a Santa Clara cow come over on your
boundary, you didn't t;ake her back, did you?
A - No, but nowadays that Is what tLey are doing.
we
have a
fence right along the line.
Q I mean before the fence was there.
A
Before, no.
But now there is a i"ence and ii" our cows get
in there they have someone run them out.
Q
But now the two areas are separgted bya fence?
A
Yes, and now we have to get oun cows from -there.
MR. ROCROW:
That is all.
COMl-1ISSIONER 0 'MAim:
Joe, way back a hundred or a hundred
and fifty yeal's ago, did they herd cattle as they do today. or
did they just let them run?
A
The cows, they do sometimes.
COMMI::>SIONER 0 'MARH:
A
In the old da;rs!
Yes, because In those days when they had farms along the
Rio Grande, there was no fence, and everYbody takescar8 or their
cows, not to do damage to the farming.
COMMISSIONER 0 'MARR:
How far back did your ancestors have
cows?
A i'1y father.
when he was about
tell me his father had cows.
85 years
old.
cor-n,nSSIONER 0 'I'!ARR:
-._-'
,
My father died
In the old days. werE. the cows
~"
OEARNl.EY.MEIER 8<
~SSOCIATES
INCO'IPOfIA.T£D
"~nws
GENER"\. L"w
....L.UQUE:RQUE
3~66'9'
-
SA.NTA. !FE
2-11_'
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A
Yes, all branded.
COMMISSIONER O'MARR:
A
How long;bave the cattle been branud! .
I don't know, but they are stIll using the same brand
nowadays.
COMMISSIONER 0 'MARR:
Do you think in the old days tbet
herded your cattle, your people, always herded the eattl.e?
A
Yes, they do, mostly in the sUllI!Ger.
In the winter tJ.me.
they turned them loose.
COMr!J:ISSIONER 0 'MARR:
A
That was one hundred years or more!
One hundred years, I don't know.
COMMISSIONER O'MaRR:
That:: is what I am tal.king about.
And
it was the same with Santa Clara?
A
Yes.
COMMISSIONER 0 'MAaR:
MR. ROCHOW:
That is all.
Ari tbe:c'< San Ildefonso farms .. have they &1­
ways been primarily along the river?
A
A~ongthe
river.
NR. ROCROW:
How far-did they extend toeitber side
or
the
river, a mile or two?
A
No, just along the edge or the river.
Because the river
do a lot of damage - in the bills.
MR. ROCHOW:
It 1s typical of the San Ildefonso Indians
to have small farms, 1s it not?
A
Yes_
MR. ROOHOW:
When I say
lI
s mal.l
H,
I mean less then
one, tw'o, thre,e acres, 1s that true?
A
Yes.
MR. ROCROW:
Are you a farmer nOw?
DEARNLEY.MElER
a
ASSOCIATES
ttKORPORIilYED
G£fII£R"L Lit. _PORTERS
"'LaUQUE"OUE 3~tSfi91
""'NT" F£:
2~,e&9
5
acres.
,
)2
A
Yes, we are, but we have no water.
"
¥.R. ROGROW:
When you plant your .f'arms, you own a farm, I
mean?
A
Yes.
J-ffi. ROCROW:
How much ot: a .f'arm do you have?
A Maybe 1$ acreo, I guess.
MR. ROCROW:
A
Where is it located?
Along the river, the river bed.
f'ilR. ROCHOW:
Fifteen acres is pretty big for a pueblo Indim
isn't it?
A
Some of' them have tha t much.
MR. ROCROW:
A
Is that right?
Yes.
MR. ROCROW:
But it extends north and sout~ along the
Rio Grande?
A
I don't know, from Ottow! to Black
MR. ROcROW:
A
}~sa.
Which side o.f' the aio Grande is your (arm on?
The east sida.
QAnd how .f'ar, extending away .f'rom the river, is
A
place?
It is right along.the river.
MR. ROCROW:
Do you know anything about distance, do
lmow where the Plaza Is down hers, about a quarter of
A
yOUl"
8.
~
mileY
Not even that .f'ar, it is just along the edge or the rivel.".
MR. ROCHOW:
The Rio Grande in this part
or
New Nexico 1.
never very big, except in the spring, is it?
A
In the springtime is all.
MR. ROGROW:
Is your i'arm typical of' the other San Ild.el"ons
ranches?
DEARNLEY.MEIER .. "SsoClI-.TES
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ALBUQ&.JERQU'E
3-669.
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A
Yes.
MR. ROCROW:
And they plant along' the stream on both sides?
A
On both sides.
Q
Do you do any dJ:oy farming amoUnting to anything?
.A
No.
Q
In other words, you do ,.our farming along the river and fohe
rest of the land is used .for herding and grazing?
MR. ROGROW:
MR. SCHIFTER:
That'3 all.
I have one question:
As far aa what is
lmown as the tppography o.f your country, as far as the canyons and
mountains run, would they run from west to east?
A
Yes, they run from west doun the Rio G1'ande.
MR. SCHlFTER:
In other words, lohe canyons run west to east
along here?
A
Yes.
MR. SCHlFTER:
In your San Ildefonso area and in the
3qta
Clara area?
A
•
Yes.
MR. SCHIFTErl:
A
And ,the mounta:ln;-ridges run the sa_ way?
Yes.
MR. SCHIFTER:
And the cattle graze generally
al~
the
canyons?
A
Along the can;:ons where theNl 1s water.
MR. SCHIFTER:
That is all.
ABEL SAliCHEZ,
a witness, of law.ful age, having been first duly sworn, testified
OEARNLEY,MEIER 8r ASSOCIATES
':IlfCORPOtta.~D
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LA. R£P'OR'T£ftS
...LaUO\lERQUE
5.o.NT'" FE
3-6691
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as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. SCHIF'TER:
Q
Will you state your name please?
A
Abel Sanchez.
Q
When; were you born?
A August 1, 1899.
Q
Where were you born?
A
San Ilderonso.
Q
Have you lived in and around the pueblo all your 1i..f'e?
.A
Yes, sir.
Q How much ·schooling have you received?
A
Oh, just about the f'if'th grade.
Q Do you now hold an office, an
of'fi~ial
position in the
pueblo?
A
Yes, sir.
Q Can you state what it is?
A
Governor of San Ildefonso for the south side people or
group.
Q
Have you been a member Of the council barON you took ottJ.
as governor?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
Do you lmow how old you. were when you first went on tbe
council?
A About 18 or 20,
itcvas~
loot
So you have been on the councIl roughly more than
A
Sir?
OEARNLEY-MEIER 8< II.SSOCtAT£S
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Q
You have been a council member
1:01',
roughly, more than
35
years 'I
A
No, I wontt say it Is
£01'
35
years; I have been in the cOUDl1.1
only one year and then they dis!!!!ssed me two or three years.
Q So it has been 01:£ and on?
A Yes, on and orr.
In all this time when you were with the council and the
Q.
older people, did you h&ar about the boundaries 01: the San Ilder
Pueblo?
-A
Q
Yes, sir.
Have you heard the
~estimony
by Mr • .aguilar given earlier
today?
A
Yes, sir.­
Q
And does YQur understanding or where t;he
~oundaries
were
,"---,
_agree with what Mr. Aguilar stated berore?
Q
Now, Mr. Sanchez,_do you remember helping with the grazing
of cattle when you were younger, helping your father?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
And can you state where the cattle was
grazed~
san
Ilderona
cattle was grazed, in the spring, summer and fall?
At my time?
A
Q When you were about 8 or 10 years old.
or
A
They were grazed on the west side
the RIo Grande.
Q
Can you name some or the areas, the geograpbical areas
where they grazed?
\
A
Around La Guaje Canyon and the pueblos,
CEARNLEY -MEIER
a:
ASSOCIATES
lNCORPORk1't:D
G£NEftkL Lk'W It£facw'n.RS
ALBUQUERQUE
3·66!lU
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SANTA FE
2~1.69
.
s-~d
south
or
Los
0
- r.
Alamos, and Jemez Mountains, and Pajarito Plateau.
as far up there during the summer tiNe.
Q.
You had some land, not as much as the Abraham Lincoln
Grant.,
A .
Yes, sir.
Q.
Was there room for grazing cattle in the
graze cattle around here in the
A
s~~r,
could you
sa~~r?
No, sir, very few cattle can be grazed in that particu1ar
area.
Q
What was that area used ror in the spring and
you were a small
b~y--along
SUIImB'l"
when
the ridge?
A We used it, just ror a-couple of head of milk cows the
Indians used.
Q Where would the f'arms be?
A
On both sides of the Rio Grande.
Q
That is what I am rei'eI"ring to, on both sides or the Rio
Grande is where . you did YOlll" farming?
A
Y~s,
sir.
Q Did you keep cattle there in winter?
A
In the winter, we bring them down and feed them with corn
stalks 'they put away.
Q.
And when you started planting around here. is that .mea
you took the ·cattle out?
A Yes, sir.
Q.
Do you remember hearing .from your t'ather what steps the
people of' San Ildef'onso used to take in the old days in :four
rather's generation to protect the cattle when it was out here in
DEARNLEY-M£!£R 8< ASSOCIATES
DtCCRPCftA'1'£D
GE1'oIIt!It"'L ,-A. _PCHlttRS
AL8UOUE1tQUE 3-6691
SANTA FE
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the western area, were any steps taken to protect the cattle to
make stire that nobody took them away?
A
According to legend, probabl}" not my f'ather's time, but be­
fore my father's time, the peo!-:e protect the animals f'rODl enem1.e
coming over the Jemez Mountains.
Q Who were these enemies?
A
The Navajos.
Q What did they do?
A
They steal a couple of' heads.or steal some human inhabitants
of' the pueblo.
Q
Now what is the name, what was used as the name of the
off'icer of the pueblo in charge of' protecting them?
A
.,.--.....
The war captain.
Q Did he have assistants?
A
Yes, sir.
Q And the war captains and their assistants would go out and
try to take care that the Navajos didn't steal the catt1eT
A
They were just patrolling the boundary lines.
Q
Now, I would like to tUl'"!l to another subject: in order to
do your cooking and also in the winter when it is cold, 70u need
firewood.
A
Yes" sir.
Q Can you get a lot of' f'irewood right within your grant?
A No" sir.
Q Where did you go and get that?
A
We get them in the--pretty near the same araa.
Q
Would you specify what area that is?
--. ...
CEARNLEy.MEIER a
ASSOCIATES
tMCORf!'ORATlIE:b
G£NE""L LAW
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..LBUQUEltOUE .3-&&91
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2.18&'
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A
Guaje Canyon and ·Rlincond.e Pueblo, Otowi, and then over in
..
Pajarito Plateau and White Rock.
Q Did tou also get rirewood rrom areas east or the Rio Grande'
A
There is no kind or i'irewood or trees or any kind in the
east portion.
Q
Hr. Sanchez, what do you call the kind o£ home the Pueblo
Indians live in?
A
Adobe homes.
Q
And what do you use to build an adobe home?
A We use dirt .for the adobes and to put the ceiling on we
use vigas, and small vigas.
Q
,Those are beams?
A
Yes, sir.
Q Where do you get those vlgas?
A
We ge t
them mcs tly around the Los AlaulOs Canyon and R1ncondE
Pueblo where Otowi' ~a
nc)W,
and Guaje Canyon.
Q How rar did you go up to get some of' that wood, how f'ar
away from the Rio Grande'?
A
.
I am 'not pretty sli..-e how far, but I estimate
eigh~S
or six or seven.
Q What kind of trees did you use?
A
'Q
Pine trees.
And closer in, did you. have enough or di4 you have to go
farther out?
A We have to go to. certain places where pine trees start on
up to the Jeme z i'IountaIns.
Q.
From about eight miles nn to the Jemez Hountains?
A
Yes.
OEARNL£Y,ME'ER 8< ASSOCIATES
INC"'itPOftATEO
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ALeUQU£RQUE:
3-66!U
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Q
In the days when you were younger, can you tell me how you
went about going out to get vigas, what did the people in the
pueblo do?
A
Well, when they are going to build two or three houses,
The people, the men, go where
they always go in a group.
t~
vigas are and cut them, the ones they like, and mark the vigas,
each one puts a dif1'erent design on the vigas, so they know which
belongs to the othel' men, and. af'ter that, they take the bark
end put it about six
dry.
O!"
orr
eigot inches ot:t: the ground and let it
Usually they go and cut the vigas early in the spring, I
would say about the month of' May when the bark is loose.
They
haul it to the pueblo along about the 1'irst·part of' October.
Q
In other words, they cut this in about ¥!8Y and mark 1.t-­
A
Yes. 81.1'.
Q --and then they leave it out to dry?
A Yes.
Q
And then they bring it in in October?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
Now Mr. Sanchez, we have been talking about the f'act that
y'i;ur people raised crops and also kept some livestock.
anything else you would use to feed yourseJ.ves?
Vas tbere
In other
food 1'01' your people?
A
We would go out hunting t:or game.
Q.
In what areas did you do your hunting"?
A
The Indians do mostly all thelr.hlmting-­
Q You mean San Ildefonso?
A San Ildefonso--on the west side of the Rio arande.
OEARNLEY-MElER
a:
ASSOC'ATES
tNCORPQftATED
Gt.~EftAL La:"" R£PORttRS
aL.UQU~RQU~
SaNTA FE
3·668'
....
2-18&9
words,
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Q Would you show us some of the areas used for hunting?
A
Go clear to tba foot of the JeIl'.ez Mountains and clear over
to the top of Frijoles and Guaje Canyons and over in tJIonterrey to
what t!"..ey c~n the back ot: tha:;White ~ock·and back or the Rio
Grande.
Q 'What animals did you hunt for?
A
Deer~
'i
~fow~
turkey~
once in a while you'd
ti'hen you brought the animals
fL~d
bear.
back~-did
you also hunt
for rabbit?
A
Yes~
sir.
I<i
Is tr..a t part of your ceremonial?
A Rabbit hunts is part or the ceremonial; we hunt always
close to the pueblo.
Q
When you are hunting deer-, aside i'rom meat as
rcoa,
d1.d
de~r hunting also have a ceremonial purpose\in your religion?
sir.
A
Yes~
Q
Can you say a rew words about that?
A
When tbay go :for a ceremonial purpose or use, they bring
the deer home and keep"the antlers for dancing the deer dance.
and the meat that has been brC'ught into the pueblo is used onl,­
by the clan participating in the ceremonial.
Q
Would some of' the mea t also be dried, if' you bunted in tho
fall, to keep it over the winter?
A
Yes, sir.
'ai.
llnd did you use
A
Yes, sir.
Q
Can you tell me for what they would be used?
the skins?
I
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A The skins would be used ror buck moccasins ror the women
and to make leather jackets.
And then we tanned it with the hair
on and used it as a rug on the rloor.
Q
NOt-I, was
tl->..ere any other way i..'>'l which you would get .rood
outside your own area.around the pueblo, going out into this
larger area of' the San Ilderonso, to the west, was there
an,.. other
food you got there?
A We would get berries.
Q Where did you go and pick berries?
A We get berries at Capulin Canyon.
English.
It translates Capulin in
It is in a sacred area now.
sacred area?
Q
A
A
Yes, sir.
Q.
Was there anything you would get in this area besides
berries?
A Yes, sir, the people used to pick pinons in this area in
that section too.
Q
What are the areas, can you. indicate ..hare you ..ouJ.d ge1;
pinon nuts?
A The area would be around Guaje Canyon
and~between
Los
Alamos and the pueblo grant.
Q How f'ar south would you go?
•
A
Clear down to Frijoles Canyon.
Q
And how ,.".ould this work, were the pinon nuts in the entire
area all year, every
J~ar?
A No, sir, just one certain portion or
8
place where the
pinons have one year and another year would be on the south portio •
DEARNL£Y·M£IER 8c ASSOCIATES
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Q
Pinon trees have a four-year cycle, and you would get them
in one area one year-­
A
I wouldn't say four years, because we
(Interrupting)
haven't seen pinons for more than six or seven years now.
Q Well, commonly they do have a four-year cycle.
What areas
would your people go to for medicines and herbs?
A They go for medicine in all directions,' four
~:
d~'ections.
.Could you name some of the places?
A They go up to what we call Black Mesa.
Q That is not what the Indians call it, is it?
A
I don't know what they call it; they call it two or three
names i'or t1.:' Black 11esa, it is Tunyo in Indian.
q
And other places, too?
A Then come down to this portion where Pojoe Baanje-­
Q
(Interrupting)
Can you indicate ilThere that is on the map!
A
It is right up here.
Q
Is that
A
Inside the area, ri;ht in ha1'6.
Q
In other words, that would be east of Buckman Mesa l'
outs~de
the area?
A Yes, sir, and on the west side they go to Pajarito and. up
to Los Alamos and get the herbs on the side
ot
the .Temez Moun­
tains close to the boundary line.
Q Mr.· Sanchez, do you recall when you people first ran into
dii'ficulties about using this area which we have outlined on the
•
map s , which they considered their own? When did they
1'i~st
have
trouble about that?
A As I recall, I was just a small boy, I don't know how
DEARNLEY. MEIER •
ASSOCIATES.
fNCORfICttA TED
GENER~L
L... Itt:POII'I'ERS
ALBUQU~UE
3-6591
.
-
-,
SANTA FE
2-'869
ol~
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..
I could be, but I remember pretty well that a man came in on
horseback at that time and he claLned he was the forest ranger
working for the Government.
governor of the pueblo.
At that time my
f~tber
was the
He gave notice to tell his people they
shouldn't use the area around there any mor-e ,
~
Did many people continue to use that area after that?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
And when was the first year when you were re:;lly restricted,
where you would be abld to sP-nd your cattle?
A
It \-Ias in 1928 or 1930 when the fe~ce was put around the
reservation.
Q
And did some
01'
the people have to sell some
or
their
cattle they had?
A
VEl 11, the Government made the Indians sell a lot of their
stock.
Q
We have mentioned some or the other uses like hunting and
picking be.I'ries.
A
Was some of that still continued even arter 1928
Yes, sir •.
Q And when did you really get stopped on that
altog~ther?
A Well, it was when they put the :fence around it, and still
after they put the fence around it, they still go and hunt, but
they had to buy a license then.
And the time everything was
stopped was when the Atomic Energy or the Govern.'11Bnt took over
Los Alamos.
Q About 19421
A
Yes, sir. '
MR. SCHIFTER:
CO}~1ISSIOl~R
That's all.
011qARR:
Do you have horses?
DEARNLEY·MEIER at ASSOCIATES
'NCORfIO"A.~D
~_ REPORTERS
GEN£"AL
AL.UOU~R~UE
3-669'
..
• SANTA F£
2- t869
_.
-I
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A
Yes, sir.
COM1USSIONER O'VJARR:
A
Goats?
No goats.
CO~~~SIO~~R O'M~~~:
Sheep?
A
No sheep.
Q
In the old days did they have horses and cattle?
A
Yes, sir.
COMHIBSIONER 0 '}1ARR:
Did they have any goats?
A I don't remember any goats •
.Q
You never heard or any?
A
No, sir.
CROSS-:,EXANINATION
BY MR. ROCROW:
Q
:Hr. Sanche z, you mentioned the Jeme z Hountains? "
A
Yes, sir.
Q,
Does the Jemez Mountain range extend through the western
part of the tract you are claiming?
A
Yes, sir, that .1s part of the Jemez r-iountains over here.
Q
"And the hig!ler parts or the mountains are farther to 1;he
west?
•
A
Yl;;lS, where the ridge--l'ir. aguilar named the boundary 1.1ne.
Q
I mean--where is the peak of the Jemez Mountains?
A
Right along here.
Q
Indicating about the W'estern bounollry'line?
A
Yes, sir.
I.t
The Santa Clara Indians and Cochiti and Tesuques and
Pojoaque Indians and all these surroundinc neighbors also get
I
DEARNLEY.MEIER 8: ASSOCIATES
INCOttPOfltAftD
Gv4EJt,,~ LI'w 'tEPoRtttrs
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sick, don It· they'?
A
Yes.
Q
And h8\vs as long as man has been on earth?
A
on,
yes.
Q Don't they also use the area to get herbs?
A
No, sir.
Q
You mean to say you keep them out?
A,J:E
never did heard-'of them" c.oming.lnt.o our ..reservatton for
herbs.
Q
I don't mean the reservation over here, but I mean wherever
the herbs may
and
gro~l
in this part of Santa Fe C01.Ulty.
A
I never heard about them being there.
Q
Haven't the Santa Glaras come dOlm for herbs and hunting
fo~.berry
A
picking?
They don't come on our resezovation.
Q I mean years ago.
A
Years ago, I can't answer the question.
Q
Then your tradition hasn't taught you anything about the
freedom. of the mountain area for hunting purposes by all the
Indians who lived in this part of New Mexico?
A
Yes.
Q
What has it taught you?
A
It taught that- wrumevar the other pueblos or the
san
Ildefonso ?ueblo want to hunt on another reservation. they had
that settled among them like hunting on their reservation. too.
Q For hunting, the Indians didn't look on boundaries, did
they?
A
No, they didn't.
DEARNLEY -MEIER
a:
ASSOCIATES
INCOR:PDtllil\T£'D
GE1tIlVtA.L Lllw R£toORtttts
ALBUQUERQUE
3-669.
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Q In other words, they went in the mountains and when they
fotUld a deer, whenever they found him, they shot him.
A
Yes.
Q And there was nothing wrong with the Santa Claras coming
into your wostern area
~hat
you are claiming or 1'or the San
Ilde1'onsos to go outside the area ·you are claiming, there was
nothing wrong with that?
A No, sir.
Q.
P_'1.d they did that, did _they?
A
Yes, sir.
Q I am n?t limiting it to Santa Clara; on the south you
~d
Cochiti and on the southwest the Jemez, is that right?
A
Yes.
Q
And they all traveled wherever the game was, is that true?
A
Yes •
.Q Was it also true that when
~hey
were looking 1'or berries
and pinons, wherever they could find ther.~ they wouid get tbem-­
ioTbtil4n·t-. tJ;1$y?
A
Yes, 1?1r.
Q.
This San Ildef'onso Reservation immediately west of' your
.
pueblo grant, the Govezonment gave you .that in 1929. didn't they!
abo ....t.
A
Ju~t
let
Can you tell me how wide it is .from east to west and how
long it is from north to south--is it longer east and west or
longer north and south?
A
I think it is :'.onger .from the south and north.
Q Do you lmow how many miles-Z
A
Could be about eight
~iles.
DEARNLEY-MElER 8: ASSOCIATES
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48
And about how wide is the tract?,
Q
A Well, the traet-­
Q Is it one, two miles, or iour miles?
Let me explain this way: here is San Ildefonso Grant or the
A
fence--in there someplace.
Q
All right.
A
Between here there is public domain, it used to be public
domain.
Q
Public domain west of' San Ildef'onso Grant? .
A Yes, it used to be.
Q You mean by that, government land?
A
By that I mean the Goverruoont or Spanish people .. they say
that be.1ongs to everybody.
Q All right.
A So, this grant has been added to San Ildef'onso Pueblo
Reservation, so when they put the fence around the reservation..
the fence came over here.
Q
That put o the f'enee around the' reservation besides the
orig1llal grant. in other words. it made the grant bigger.
A
'Yes, about a half mile wider. that is all.
'!'ben it
COIlDS
over here where there is a corner-­
Q
You are indicating a place marked Los
J~lamos ~an:ron?
A No. it is Guaje Canyon.
Q
Here is Guaje Canyon up here. a little f'arther to the ves1l.
A
Ye s J Gua je Canyon the I'e.
Q
I see; there is a line rnarlred San Ildef'onso India.."1. ileserTa­
tion, probably the western boundary.
A
Yes, and public domafn in t-..ere and the west"boundary line
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a- tM,
UF
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runs from about here, the west boundary li1".6 runs here.
Q It is indicated on this map, so I guess we can tell.
It 1s
marked San Ildefonso Indian i'lo8servation, and there is a boundary
line indicated on the east and one cn the west.
A
Yes.
Q In other words, the western boundary line of the reserva­
tion is the eastern boundary line of this Bandelier National
Monument?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
All right.
your-pueblo -affairs
You may sit down.
Now, I donlt want to pry intc
too much, your political organization, but
San Ildefonsois a little different from the other paeblos, so I
have ·to ask a few questions, do you mind?
A No,
sir~
Q
You are governor of the south people?
A
Yes.
Q
And that means the people who live on
~he
south plaza, is
that right?
P.
Well, lole donlt all live in the south plaza, some live in
the north.
Q
But you belong to the south people, is that right?
A
Yes.
Q And you have another faction or group known as the north
people, is that t1"1.lG?
•
A Yes,
SiT.
Q What is the difference between the two?
Why are there two
groups, can you tell us--donlt go into your religious secrets.
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50
A
It is a raction split up, among political matters.
Q How long have there been two groups?
A
About eight or nine years.
Q.
Just eight or nine years?
A
Yes.
Q Waich group is the bigger, which has the moro people, the
south or north group?
50-50
A
Including the population there, it is about
I would
Q.
And you have about 200 altogether?
A
A little over 200, I would say, but the people according
say.
·chilcL.~n
to the division, you come f'rom the
'south side has a majority
Q
You also have
A
Yes, sir.
~dO
L~
to the grown-ups, the
the population.
dif'rerent sets or o1'1'icers, don't you?
Q One set 1'01' the north group and one 1'01' the south group?
A Yes,
Q
si:r~
You are governor ror the south group and they have a
separate governor ror the north group?
A Yes, sir.
Q.
And also lieutenant governors?
A Yes, sir.
•
Q.
And a separate council?
A
Yes, sir.
~
Just like-­
A
China?
Q.
no, I don't lmow, now the two groups make up the Pueblo of
,....,,/'
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a
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5l.
San Ildefonso, is that right?
A
Yes, sir.
Q But the division is political, you say?
Q
A
Yes.
By "political" what do you mean?
A Well, by that I mean one group just wants to get control. ot
the other group or certain high of'ficers in the north side group
would say they want to be a dictator and dictate to the people so
that is whe:r>e the friction comes in.
Q
The north group wants to r-un the whole shmu?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
And have control of the pueblo?
A
Yes.
Q
And the south side wants control of' the pueblo, too?
A On the south side we don't believe in dictatorsh!p_
~
, Is there any difference in your re ligious be lief's?
A No sir, they have the sane religion_
Q Just two political factions.
A Yes, sir.
QN~~
which
fQcti~n
brought this suit?
A Well according to my understanding, it is the north side
group brought the suit.
I.i
But now the south side group is tastil'ying?
A Ye's, 'sir.
Q
Isn't there any di.f'f'erep.ce of' opinion about the right to
prosecute this suit against the Govarn!oont, or are you agreed on
•
that?
A According tc
OUI'
group, we all agree, but we haven I t tall-ed
to the north side about it.
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n
...
....
·r
I
52
I
Q
You haven't talked to the north side?
A r'To.
Q
And they haven't come in and testified?
A No.
Q The case has been
pendL~g
for over-­
A
Four or five years.
Q
And this is really the first testimony by any member of
San Ildefonso Pueblo.
(Off the Record Discussion)
Q
Now, I want to ask you one more question: these two groups
are also !mown as summer- people and winter people, aren't they?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
Which are the sumreer- people?
A
It is all mixed up, that is part ot: the religious system.
-.
-'.'.,
I would say if a person Is.a winter person, I I he is head of the
f's!llily, he belongs to the winter people, _his t:a.'11ily usual17 goes
s~1it.
winter, just like Republican and Democrat, we have that
Q
Well now, are some of the south plaza, the
are they members of the
SUI1Ic"'OO.!"
sout~
peop1e.
people and li'inter people factions?
\
A
Yes, sir.
Q
So, although you may have the south peop1e., they.,.,.
belong to the SUI1L'1lSr and
~.,inter
people and the north may
be~cmg
to the sunnner or winter pe ople?
A Yes, sir, that is correct.
•
Q
So that is a religious i'action--maybe that's not the right
word~-but
A
it is not political.
No, sir.
I
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a
ASSOCIATES
lNCOftPQRa.T£D
G£NEWA... LAW !IIO-ORtttts
.. LlIUQUEROUE c S ..NTA FE
3-669'
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,
-•f
.
.
Q
It deals with rel~gious matters?
A
Yes, sir.
~
Which has the greater number, the summer people or the
winte r people?
A
I think it is the summer pe ople •
~
That is what I have, toe, {indicating a paper in his hand}.
MR. ROGROW:
Thatls all.
HE-DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. SGHIFTER:
Q
Just a few questions: Mr. Sanchez, we were tal.king bef'ore
about your people going out to pick pinon
nut~
and berries.
Cen
you tell me who it was among the people Ln the pueblo that "oul.d
do it, was it the men, the woI!1'tn, or the young people?
A
The women and children, sometimes the whole .family.
Q
And you would go out picking and--how would you carry the
berries or nuts home?
A
Sometimes we go on foot up to the canyon where .tb8 berries
are. '
Q
You would go to the canyon?
A . Yes.
Q
Did the families, including the women and children go itl.l.
the way to Santa Glaras side on the south, to the Cochiti side. or
just to that
A
As
are~
described before?
I remember from boyhood,
Wi3
picked pinon onl.y on our
reservation, on that area.
Q.
.you mean the area marked on Exhibit 1 in red?
A
Yes, sir.
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l"'c:ottfo>OII·~D
GE'NER"L L"w tCtflORTERS
..LaUQlIERQUE
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..
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54
,~~
-"',
Q And do you remember or do you Imow or Santa Clara .families
LncLud.Irig women and children comin!'; all the way down here, and
Cochiti .families coming all the way north into your area?
sir.
A
No~
Q.
There was a question asked be.fore and I just wanted to ask
if you understood that correctly, with regard to the berries and
pinon nuts.
Isn't it correct that there are places with
and pinon nuts allover this entire Santa
Fearea~
ber~~es
the Santa Clara
people testified as the record will show, on places and areas,
the question is where the women and children go
pic~,
80
clo they
go outside the area or where the berries are cJ.osest by?
A
They go where the berries and pinons are, ll" there is IM.y
pinons, and in the reservation or grant that they are claiming.
~
They would
A .
Yes, sir.
go~to~the~nearest place
they could find them?
RE-CROo)S-EXAMINATlON
BY MR. ROCHOW:
Q
Your tradition hasn't taught you anything about what the
situation
w~s
a hundred years ago in regard to the .fact that they
wEmt to particular places for hunting or berrying and nobody
else was allowed in there?
A
The only traditions we have ~ we keep other Indians out. is
when we go and pay our visits to certaln
shr~nos
on tho of.DlZ
Mountains up someplace in the Jeme z Mountains or Plateau. on the
sacred area. but mostly it is in thct sacred area.
Q
These shrines of' the various pueblo Indians. a mountain
may be a sacred place or shrine, is that true?
A
Yes.
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ASSOCIATES
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GtMallltt.L LAW ~ ....8\1<lU£ftQU£
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. •p
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Q.
Or a lake?
A Yes.
Q
Or even a spring, and very often aren't these shrines what
may be considered a shrine, a Lao may be considered a shrine or
another pueblo and sacred to them, is that true?
A
Yes, sir.
Q AI'e theI'e any shI'lnes slong the northern boundary
or
the
area 7ou'are claiming?
A- There are two places right inside the Abraham Lincoln Grant...
Q
You don't have any sacred shrines in the northwest section?
A
We have one in the:. sacred area.
f.i
This area down here almost in the center?
A
In the center, yes sir.
Q
Is tr..et sacred only to Sen Ilderonso?
A. I"~,s,
sir.
else?
Q
~;obody
A
Nobody else.
Q
Not Santa Clara?
A
No.
<.l.
Nor Cochiti?
A
Not that we lmow
Q
Or Pojoaque?
A
No. sir.
Q
vI'
A
No. sir.
l./.
Just San Ildef'onso?
A
Yes. sir.
or.
Tesuque?
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F~
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156
Q
Do you have any sacred area outside this northern boundary?
A
No, sir.
~
Do
A
N"()t cha t
y~~
have any shrine up there?
we know of.
f.ffi. ROGROW:
That is all.
GOMr'ITSSIONERO'I'IARR:
part of your
d~et
Well, they
A
Pinon nuts are a rather important
or food, aren't they?
~o
up and pick them and it is a good :food and
they sell them, too, to the stores.
C01.fiHSSIOER 0 'flII.ARR:
I am talking about olden times; d1.d
your people depend on them to a
~reat
extent :for food?
Yes, sir.
A
COMMISSIOlffiR 0 '1-fARrl:
Have they been ple!ltif'ul in the area
you are claiming?
Well, they are
A
plent~ul
because the pinen trees--I viII
show you on the map--you pet the western portion over here, it is
just a strip of pinon trees.
MR. SGHIFTER:
The witness indicated a strip running north
\
from Rio de la Frijoles.
A
The whole Los Alamos Canyon, and otowi, right by here.
MR.
SCHIFTER:
A
strip of about three miles which was
about three miles east of the western boundary line?
A
And this portion over here, too.
COMMISSIONBR O'HARa:
•
MR. SCHIFTER:
COI"1rlI~SIOhER
What is the scale on your Exhibit l '
~0024•
1 to
0 'MR.RR:
Well, the reason I mentioned pinon
nuts, I know the tribes of the west, it is a very important part
DEARNLEY.MEIER 8t ASSOCIATES
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....
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FE
2~t869
I
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but they only grow in certain areas and are not widespread like
berries.
That is all.
MR. SCHIFTER:
That's all.
COMf1ISSIONER 0 'HARR:
You arc excused, Mr. SaD-chez.
Is '"
that the extent of your testimony?
MR. SCHIFTER:
That is allot: the testimony that
we;
are
taking at this hearing.
COMMISSIONER 0 'I1ARR:
All right.
The hearing will be in
recess.
I, Dorothy B. Myers, do hereby certiry that as the reporter
designated to take and transcribe the within and .foregoing case
before the Indian Claims Commission, I did record the
testL~any
•
and proceedings therein, in shorthand, and. that the same were
typed by me or· under my supervision, and the .foregoing pages,
No.1 to 57, this page inclusive, are a complete and accurate
record of' saId proceedings, to the best of my knowledgfil. skill
and ability.
Dated this ...-::
_ day of February, 1957, at Santa Fe, New
Mexico.
OEARNLEY.MEIER 8: ASSOCIATES
l1'lll-eoRPOft"'ttD
(;£NER"L LAW R£PORTEfts
4LBUOUERQUE
3·669'
.~.
..
S4NTA FE
2-18&9
BEFORE TEE INDIAN CLI.IMS COMMISSION
No.
j..r..,...
P~),
vs.
THE UNITED STATES,
Defendant.
•••••••••
OArP. OF HEPOIn'ER
I, the undersigned, having been
~
named as a
re~
to take and transcribe the testimon;r in the above entitled cause,
upon
my
9ath do say: that I wU1 well and trul7 take dOlRl and
transcribe the questions propounded to and the answra giYeD by
the witnesses at the hear1.ng ot said cause. and that 1: wU1. do
81.1 other things required
or Examiner thereat.
o
or Ille
by said C0IImliss1on. a CoIlimiIla.i.oner