Michigan Engineering College/Community College Liaison Committee
Annual Meeting
October 20, 2006
Minutes
8:00-9:00
Registration and Continental Breakfast
Dr. Stanley Liberty Welcome Address:
He has been reading about declining interest in engineering and science expressed by high school
seniors. He feels we need to partner with the stem education sector in middle and high school levels.
Engineering colleges have been reluctant because of competition with resources. It is clear there is a
national crisis on hand in science and math which happens right after sixth grade. Testing shows they
are falling off the table in these grades. Major universities are still attracting engineering students, but
others are declining. This is not something that is going to be turned around (without change). More
engineering colleges are now in a shrinking market. Michigan has had a tremendous brain drain.
Students are leaving the state for other jobs because of local economic conditions. There is a need to
establish relationships among the colleges. Kettering has been partnering with Eastern Michigan to
focus on middle schools in Genesee County to boost the learning experience. All need to have a
commitment to strengthen science and math in middle school and high school. Kettering is trying to
become more collaborative with other universities and is willing to partner with the universities here
today.
Straw poll – How many are seeing an increase in enrollment in engineering and science? (two hands).
Kettering University has been impacted by some colleges tweaking their requirements (University of
Michigan-AA).
Updates from each college and university:
Michigan Tech: Not too many changes. Total number of graduate and undergraduate is now 3,666,
same as 2001 dropping 60 from last year. Other trends in numbers - this year they have 638 female
engineers, an increase over last year. This reverses a five-year drop. Five years ago they had 790
women in the engineering program. They are trying to address this drop and increase the number of
women in the engineering program. They are starting a new engineering program for the fall 2007 year.
It’s called Service Systems Engineering. The idea is to use engineering principals and industrial
engineering aspects applied to the service sector. They have a one-half million dollar grant for this.
They are trying to increase the number of engineering students at the high school level and junior high
level to keep those students encouraged in the science and math classes.
Schoolcraft College: They offer an intro to engineering class. They are building a new bio-medical
engineering technology building. Enrollment is up campus-wide which has resulted in a decline for the
big colleges in the area, since Schoolcraft is less expensive.
University of Detroit Mercy: They have a lot of good scholarships and financial aid for transfer
students. They have a required coop program for their engineering students. Students feel the coop
program is a positive thing that helps them get jobs. 92% of the students get jobs on graduation or are
accepted to a graduate school. They have a very hands-on program. Enrollment in science is way up
but engineering is down. 30% of the engineering students are women which is a positive thing.
MECCCLC Minutes – October 20, 2006
Ferris State University: They are pleased to report that enrollment overall has increased although
enrollment in technology went down. They commend Kettering for recognizing this issue. More and
more students are starting at the community college level. Their number of transfers has increased
tremendously - approximately 65% of their students are transfer students. They need to meet with
community college representatives to make sure they’re on the same path. There are three to four jobs
for every graduate in the program which is very remarkable. They would like to find out from
community colleges if they offer courses any courses on ethics in engineering. Another item for
discussion would be the total number of credit hours required for graduation in four-year engineering
programs.
Monroe County Community College: They would like other schools to transfer to. They are looking at
Ferris and some others for opportunities for direct articulation into technology.
Western University: In their traditional engineering and technical programs, they had a slight upturn in
enrollment. They have all the traditional programs and all are accredited. Their students who are
coming in with supposedly with good math skills, by and large, most have to take remedial math to be
successful in either their engineering or technology programs. There is a significant decrease in
retention. They have now established a plan of cohorts where they are able to put students into clusters
with mentors. This helps their retention immensely and they highly recommend it.
Wayne State University: In terms of remedial math, they have also noticed a huge number of students
seeking engineering have little math and science. They have initiated a bridge program to bring students
in, identify the math deficiency and start them in a program with skill development, career development
and course development. Retention from the program is not high. The program was instituted because
some students are taking a very long time to reach calculus 1 and getting disillusioned about where
they’re heading and about spending a lot of money. They hope it will do better this year and they do see
more motivation.
Oakland University: They are maintaining their 1,200 undergraduates. New admits for 2007 are up this
year. They implemented a new major in 2005 – Information Technology - and have gone from 9 to 36
this fall, so it’s increasing and expected to continue. They have a lighter math focus in computer science
focusing more on application rather than software. They have a new department - Industrial and
Systems Engineering and continue to offer computer science, mechanical engineering, electrical
engineering.
Lawrence Tech: They have civil engineering, computer engineering, and electrical engineering.
Enrollment is down to 1,700. Undergraduate is down and graduate is up. Recruitment efforts – campus
days in the fall and new undergrad degree in bio-medical engineering. Mechanical engineering and
electrical engineering concentrations under biomedical. New graduate program – electrical engineering.
ABET – just recently all programs were accredited for a full 6 years.
Grand Rapids Comm. College: They wonder how the new state requirements for math might impact
what the previous colleges were talking about. Students now have to take 4 credits in mathematics and
they have to have so much algebra and so much geometry. This just went into effect this year for 8th
graders. How might that effort our colleges. They are up first time first time ever over 15,000. Big
enrollment but really bulging in developmental math.
Delta college: Hard to identify pre-engineering numbers. They think they’re doing pretty good there
but going down in tech areas. They offer mechanical engineering technology and manufacturing
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technology. Some of those two-year degrees are definitely declining. Overall numbers and credit hours
are going up. They have good partnerships with Kettering, Ferris and Michigan Tech. They have a new
certificate program - lean resource management program with Delphi. Also thinking about having a
career engineering fair in February.
Michigan State University: This past year saw some changed leadership at MSU and with new
leadership comes change. The new dean is very much into undergraduate student life and is opening the
doors in terms of admission to the college of engineering. To showcase that, they now have a director of
recruitment in K-12 outreach in the college of engineering. That’s a first time position. They feel that
they’re known a lot by the community college world as a very hard place to transfer into and want to
change that. There’s a number out there that they only accept 15 students in each department of
engineering – throw that number away. Speaking for electrical and computer engineering, they’ll take
as many as you can give them. In the Last year they have seen a 5-year decline in enrollment within the
college of engineering turn around somewhat. They have initiated a scholarship for incoming freshmen
and are putting out more scholarship money for transfer students. They just put up this week on the
College of Engineering website all new information regarding enrollments and transfers. They are very
heavy into Lego Leagues, stretching out to the middle schools around the Lansing area and hosting a
regional competition on campus. They get their freshmen involved in tutoring middle schoolers in the
Lego Leagues. Also, they are looking at getting involved in First Robotics. They have a new lobby area
of engineering which will be much nicer and welcoming.
Spring Arbor University: Their overall enrollment for undergraduates is approaching 1,600 and 4,000
overall. They have about 14 centers around Michigan. They have also seen the enigma of students who
say they want to go into engineering but can’t pass calculus. They have gone to the First Robotics
competition at Eastern Michigan for the past two years and found it hard to give away scholarships in
March because students have already made choices by then. So they are trying to get in earlier,
sponsoring scholarships on the website
Lake Superior State University: Enrollment is an issue. They are trying to encourage junior high and
high school students to pursue engineering by offering summer programs for these kids. For the first
time, one of the programs will be completely funded by Continental Automotive Systems. They will be
a sponsor for their robotics camps for the summer. Their main engineering programs are electrical,
computer and mechanical engineering. They’re one of two universities to offer robotics at the
undergraduate level. Students work on real industrial robots. They have about 15 real industrial robots
in their robotics laboratory. They offer several First Robotics scholarships and support Lego Robotics.
They are very hands on. All the engineering tech students are required to take industrial senior projects
– these are real projects with real budgets. They have the same issues with enrollment as the other
colleges throughout the state. Their electrical and computer engineering programs are holding their own
but mechanical is down substantially. Math is a real problem. Some students are way behind.
Kellogg Community College: They’re here to learn what other universities have to offer so they can
send students their way. They need transfer guides because the web is not up-to-date. Please send
transfer guides their way. Math is a problem – ACT scores may be high but not a good indicator of
math competencies. 70% of their students come in needing developmental math. They want to go into
engineering but need pre-algebra.
University of Michigan: They have a new dean in the College of Engineering. Their overall
enrollment is the highest it has ever been at 40,000 students campus-wide. The College of Engineering
increased in applications but most were at out of state level. They have 1,100 freshmen and 5,000 in
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other levels of the college of engineering, 70% coming from the state of Michigan. Enrollment of
women is dropping and they are very concerned about that – enrollment overall is 26% but freshmen are
dropping. They have two new buildings: bio-medical engineering has a new component so that
building is being dedicated, plus their new computer science and computer engineering. New initiative:
a new partnership with University of Michigan-Flint doing something with Focus Hope, a new initiative
campus-wide – Jack Kent Cooke and a grant they are working with, named TR2M (transfer to Mich).
This is focused on community colleges in the state of Michigan for high achieving low to moderate
income students. They will be visiting community colleges over the next few years to address things of
most concern to make transferring into engineering a lot more viable. A new Transfer Visitation Focus
on the third Friday of each month for transfer students to visit. They will have a Tech Day program
Saturday November 11. This is an open house to showcase the College of Engineering for prospective
freshmen and transfer students. Jack Kent Cooke initiative is web based and looks at all 15 possible
majors in engineering that University of Michigan offers. This is a good resource for students to look at.
West Shore Community College: They are experiencing similar problems in terms of remedial math.
They have found that banning of calculators helps some. They have some new labs. Their registration
is fairly stable. Enrollment is 1,300 – up 30 students this year.
Wayne County Community College: They have five campuses. Enrollment is up this year. Students
fear engineering jobs are being outsourced. They are afraid to go into engineering. Everything looks
rosy except for their engineering program.
Grand Valley State University: They sponsor high school for engineering. There has been a
reorganization at Grand Valley. Enrollment continues to grow. Engineering program is stable. This
coming spring they will open the John C. Kennedy building for engineering. They are attracting more
students into the field of design engineering. They have a strong outreach program and are involved in
robotics.
University of Michigan – Dearborn: They have a brand new building that houses a laboratory for
advanced vehicle system. They continue to have one of only eight programs in sophomore/junior year
that is ABET accredited and are very fortunate to have a very strong component in computer game
design. A couple of their students got jobs in California in computer games design. They have a strong
cooperative education program which is not mandatory and begins at the end of the sophomore year.
Patton passed on to them a substantial legacy set aside exclusively for undergraduate scholarships in
electrical and computer engineering. This year they began awarding Patton scholarships to transfer
students to electrical and computer engineering. Bad news is they cannot hide what is happening to
engineering in the State of Michigan. Undergraduate and graduate enrollment for the last few years has
been in a steady decline. Particularly serious is the percentage of women students, which has seen a
bigger decline. Something needs to be done about this. Cannot simply continue with business as is.
Junior high and high school students need higher math. They have a summer bridge program with high
school students who want to go into engineering with both physics and mathematics components. It is
now open to all areas, not just engineering.
Eastern Michigan University: They have a unique situation in that they are actually a feeder school
although they are a four year college, but they don’t have an engineering program. They do have a
technology program. They have a pre-engineering program for advertising purposes. This includes the
usual courses – first year physics, statistics, some thermo fluids, chemistry, in accordance with
University of Michigan requirements. They would like copies of transfer documents from other schools.
They have had trouble getting students into calc 1 and into their freshman physics class (not just
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calculus based but algebra based physics). They had to raise their score on the placement exam. Part of
it is for the past few years the requirements in high school for math went to a core system. They didn’t
have regular algebra or trig. They had core math I, core math II, core math III, which is essentially three
semesters of math, scattered in all areas. They have students coming in who don’t even have high
school algebra or high school trig. It takes two years to catch up. Glad to see governor made a change
to require specific math classes, because no matter how many remedial math courses they offer, people
don’t have time or money to stick around that long. Questions – How Should they change pre-req for
calc based physics from calc 1 to a co-req? They are thinking of doing that to attract students one
semester earlier. What kind of computer language are other colleges requiring in their programs? Is it
still JAVA, or C++ or another? Enrollment has dropped significantly. They are feeling the crunch to
the point that they will not be able to expand any of their programs. One that is expanding is teachers
are coming for recertification to teach the math classes the governor has mandated. Their enrollment
problem is retention. They attract freshman but don’t keep them because they aren’t prepared. ABET –
have been trying to get ABET accreditation for a few years – lack assessment tools.
Albion college: They remain a dual degree institution. Students spend 3 years with them and then a
number of years with an engineering school earning two degrees at the end. They have two formal
agreements –University of Michigan and Tech. They just finished a major renovation and expansion of
their science complex. They integrated all the four sciences and math. Dual degree interest remains
strong. They fight the same math issues. They have changed their math and physics departments
recently and have a lot of new faces. A big change in the math program is they have a particular
mathematician with a Ph.D. in engineering. The professor joined 5 years ago and gave a tremendous
boost to the engineering program with substantial changes, particularly to the focus of the multivarial
calculus and differential equations classes, teaching more from an applied physics/engineering
standpoint of which the students have really taken to. Also been teaching things like statics and strength
of materials.
Kalamazoo college: Programs are very similar to Albion. They are a pre-engineering college with dual
degree, also. Many students go on to Michigan, Kettering, Michigan Tech, Grand Valley and Western.
They are making all premeds take calculus-based physics. Their enrollment in science and engineering
is steady but they are getting flooded with premeds. They believe a lot of the best and brightest come to
college wanting to study medicine because they have been watching TV programs and they need to learn
that medicine has its pluses and minuses. So many first year students really don’t know what they want
to do so it’s a big mistake to let them take algebra based physics. Once you start down that route,
switching to engineering is tough. They are pushing hard bio-physics and bio-medical engineering.
Many of the women in engineering are going that way rather than, say, mechanical. The other thing
they are trying to do is marry physics and engineering in intermediate level courses – applied science.
Henry Ford Community College: They have an associate degree in pre-engineering, made official three
years ago. Due to cuts in state funding the program does not have a coordinator, but we still hope to
make the program more visible on campus and in the community. Many students are interested in
pursuing engineering. Enrollment is down a little but still strong in engineering. They have close ties
with the University of Michigan. Their Science Division applied for a grant to develop more bio-chem
programs to strengthen the science. They have a 3-2 program with Michigan Tech. Some students have
been changing from engineering to pharmacy because they believe the engineering jobs aren’t there but
everyone needs a pharmacist.
Central Michigan University: Everything is new about engineering at Central. They are initiating a
four-year program in mechanical and electrical engineering. Plans are in the works for degrees. Student
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enrollments in engineering are up. They are applying for ABET accreditation. They are interested in
working with community colleges. 130 credit hour program for mechanical and electrical engineering.
They do not have a required coop program.
Kettering University: Kettering is a service learning organization. They have a program called
Engineering Without Borders. One of their projects was building a playground. The next project will
be in New Orleans. They have several study abroad programs. Enrollment is down, predominately
Mechanical Engineering. They have started a new I.T.graduate degree program. They have been a big
supporter of First Robotics and Lego League. Kettering helped organize middle school competition.
Kettering made a concerted effort this year with math at the freshmen level. There is a lack of
correlation with standardized test scores and a lot of inconsistency when students repeat the test. It is
not a good indicator of how they would perform in the class. Programming language – they require the
electrical and computer engineering students to learn JAVA. This is becoming a hurdle for some
students. Some change their major from computer engineering when they hit that program. Changes in
undergrad – this year, shifting from engineering to medical. Kettering started a bio-chem and a bio-med
degree and are talking about pre-med and pre-law programs.
Lunch
Organization of MECCCLC/Planning future meetings
Question - How many think this is a worthwhile organization? (all)
What happened to the host last year? The year the host was selected, there were no community colleges
at the meeting. Someone volunteered that institution. They may not have gotten the message and they
never committed. Comment - An institution should volunteer themselves, not be volunteered.
Question – There should be a consistent date each year. Is the third Friday of October a good date? (all
agreed). Decision was made to make this the date going forward.
Question - What is the purpose of this group? Comment – In the beginning, it was portrayed as a way
for community and four-year colleges to discuss changes of curriculum and sharing information. It
was established as a way to simply bring groups together before personal computers and before email as
a way to provide criteria for transferring from feeder schools to four-year schools. It is a diverse
information-sharing organization. For example, when ABET changed accreditation policy, this was
discussed. It impacts two-year colleges lining up courses for four-year colleges.
Action Item: Mission/Purpose Statement.
Comment – Ask for hosts for the next two years rather than three. If something happens and the next
year’s host can’t do it, the second year host could step in.
Question – Is a committee necessary? (All agreed).
Structure of the committee:
No more than five and at least three. Three permanent and the next two hosts.
The post would be permanent, not the person.
Rotate every three years.
Length of time? Three years for continuity. Start with one, two and three year terms with staggered
rotation. If you wish to stay on you can be eligible but there will still need to be a vote. (All agreed).
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Summary:
Executive Committee:
Five people - Chairperson, Vice Chairperson, Member at Large and two additional Members at Large
who would be the next two hosts.
Duties of the executive committee:
- Recommend membership (Membership Committee) for open positions to be confirmed at
the annual meeting by the group. Comment – members should have input into who is
recommended for open positions. Try to get faculty members involved. There should be
at least one faculty member involved.
- To solicit future hosts to be confirmed by the group and confirm annual meeting sites.
- Maintain the membership list
- Charge the Executive Committee to enhance communication within the group
- Empower the Executive Committee to speak on behalf of the group
- Set the agenda for the meeting
Membership List - Limit it to 3 persons per college. Recommend administrator, student services
representative and faculty. Any number may attend the annual meeting, but one vote per member
institution.
Homework assignment –Wyn Wilson sent an Excel spreadsheet to everyone. Look at everyone listed
at your institution and make corrections. Within the membership list add a column titled
Member/Contact and list a generic person to send information to. If you see someone who didn’t come
today, contact them. Solicit members from institutions who have engineering programs who have not
attended.
Question – What type of reports does the group wants? Comment - A brief presentation pertinent to
engineering that other schools would have an interest. Can some of this be communicated earlier or can
it be provided by the institutions in writing prior to the annual meeting???
Action Item: The Organization should define what they would like to see in the report.
Guidelines for host – what are you agreeing to?
- Provide lunch
- Will hold the meeting on the third Friday of October (NO CHANGING OF DATE)
- Appropriate facility for 60 or more people comfortably
- Provide coffee and water during meeting time
- Provide note taker for annual meeting minutes
- Become a member of Executive Committee
Election of first and second year hosts (also will be members of the Executive Committee):
Schoolcraft (Lisa Zacconne) - 2007
Central Michigan University (Marci Otteman) - 2008
(all agreed)
Election of Executive Committee open positions:
- Chairperson: Wyn Wilson (Kettering University) for two years
- Vice Chairperson – Jeff Ray (Grand Valley State University) for three years
- Member at Large - Rey Perez (U of M – Dearborn) member at large (also volunteered to
be responsible to coordinate the membership roster for one year)
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Archiving material (minutes, membership list, matrix)
Comment – There should be one school that would house the information and archives for all. They
would take care of the minutes, maintain the membership list, determine the requirements of being a
host and requirements of the committee. (all agreed). Currently, GRCC (Jennifer Dollar) keeps the
matrix.
Action Item: Find an archivist for the material.
Open forum.
Discussion regarding transferring to another school/program.
What are the pros and cons of having a two-year level degree in the articulation process? Should
community colleges pursue TAC accreditation? Does it help students transfer into an ABET accredited
college? It helps the articulation to go into a four-year technology program. College assessment plays a
big role. Would like to be able to document the process. Lake Superiour has ET programs. How do
you measure your math and science courses – is it transferable? Why is it? We have pre-engineering
programs but it really doesn’t mean anything – doesn’t result in a particular degree. Could they use the
two-year completely in a four-year school? Have an engineering program and a tech program. Students
will take 120 credit baccalaureate program but have to take 80 credits at a two-yearr level land 60 more
again so they are actually doing 140. If they have accreditation, their 80 credits would count toward the
four-year program. Once they have accreditation of the program at the two-yearr level, that would help
how they interpret it. Comment - no – they look at it course by course not program accreditation.
Transfer agreements are different at each university in regards to articulation. Very complex.
Discusssion regarding programming languages used.
Program language – What do four-year colleges use?
Lake Superior State – C programming, computer engineering C++, Pasquale, JAVA, Robotics
University of Michigan – Engineering C++, transfer students C++ but will accept JAVA
Grand Valley – C++
UM Dearborn - C++ for everyone but thinking about JAVA
Michigan Tech – JAVA, transfer students - they will transfer in any programming
Kettering – JAVA, ME no programming. Looks for object oriented JAVA
Ferris – Was Visual Basic but switched to MatLab
University of Detroit Mercy – C++
Discussion regarding length of time/number of credits to graduate.
How long does it take students to graduate from an engineering program? Answer 4.6 years at (?).
How many credit hours for an engineering degree? Five year program - 128 credits at (?).
National average for finishing an engineering degree is five years from Calc 1.
Action Item: Executive committee to meet last part of January 2007.
3:00
Conclusion of meeting
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