Agenda item ______3_____
LICENSING AND APPEALS COMMITTEE
Minutes of a meeting of the Licensing and Appeals Committee held at 10.00 am on 21
May 2012 in the Council Chamber, Council Offices, Holt Road, Cromer.
Members Present:
Mrs A Claussen-Reynolds
Mrs P Grove-Jones
Mr B J Hannah
Mr B Jarvis
Miss B Palmer
Mr R Price (Chairman)
Mr R Reynolds
Mr B Smith
Mrs A C Sweeney
Mr J Wyatt
Officers in attendance:
The Licensing Manager, the Environmental Health Manager, the
Legal Advisor, and the Democratic Services Officer (AA).
1
APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE
Apologies were received from Mrs A R Green, Mr P W High, Mr R Shepherd and Mrs
L Walker.
2
PUBLIC QUESTIONS
Mr A Coleman, Chairman of the Taxi and Private Hire Association, Mr S Heels,
representing North Norfolk Taxi Association and Mr C Andrews, representing North
Norfolk Taxi Association and also an operator, requested to speak on agenda item 6
– Revision of the Taxi Licensing Policy, Handbook, Licence Conditions and
Associated Licence Fees.
3
MINUTES
The Legal Advisor informed Members that an email had been received from a
member of the public who had attended the Licensing Sub-Committee held on 25
April 2012 and had stated that some comments made at the meeting were absent.
The Legal Advisor asked Members whether they wished for any amendment to be
made. She informed Members that the minutes were not verbatim but a reflection of
what happened at the meeting. Members agreed that the minutes were a reflection
of the meeting and did not need to be amended.
The minutes of the meetings of the Licensing and Appeals Committee held on 26
March and 2 April 2012 and also the minutes of the meetings of the Licensing SubCommittees held on 7 March and 25 April 2012 were approved as correct records
and signed by the Chairman.
4
CHAIRMAN’S ANNOUNCEMENT
The Chairman informed the meeting of the tragic death of a young taxi driver the
previous week.
5
ITEMS OF URGENT BUSINESS
None.
Licensing and Appeals Committee
21 May 2012
6
7
DECLARATIONS OF INTEREST
Member(s)
Minute
No.
Item
Interest
Mr B Hannah
48
Revision of the Taxi Licensing
Policy, Handbook, Licence
Conditions and Associated
Licence Fees
Personal – was
previously a Chairman
of the Taxi Drivers
Forum
Mr B Jarvis
48
“
Personal – as a
regular private hire
user
REVISION OF THE TAXI LICENSING POLICY, HANDBOOK, LICENCE
CONDITIONS AND ASSOCIATED LICENCE FEES
The report provided an update on consultation feedback from the taxi trade.
The Chairman reminded Members that this report had been considered to the
Committee on 26 March 2012 which was just before the end of the consultation
period and it had been deemed appropriate to bring the matter back before the
Committee in order to consider additional feedback and if necessary revise its
recommendations to Full Council.
The Licensing Manager said that the key issues were the fees which the Council was
to set for the forthcoming year. The taxi trade had sought to make representations
and this matter was now back before Members to reflect on their recommendation for
setting the fees. Originally the fees were to take effect from 1 May 2012 but would
now be recommended to Full Council to effect from 1 July 2012. The report showed
proposed revised transitional arrangements and a proposed revised licence fee
structure for 2012/13. The taxi trade had expressed the wish to have a one-year
licence as well as a three-year licence. There was now a requirement for new drivers
to undertake a driving test and for a cyclical medical assessment to take place threeyearly or five-yearly. The majority of the taxi trade had opted for three-yearly.
Mr A Coleman, Chairman of the Taxi and Private Hire Association spoke on the
proposals. He expressed concern over the proposed increase in fees as he
considered that this would lead to a loss of part-time drivers, many of whom
undertook school drives and weekend drives and would impact on the individual
companies. The formation of the Taxi and Private Hire Association had been a good
thing and enabled taxi drivers to work with Council.
Mr S Heels, representing North Norfolk Taxi Association, was pleased that the
handbook had been revised but felt that it could go further. He expressed concern at
what he considered were ill-timed and costly changes. Many people lived in isolated
locations and were retired and used taxis frequently. He considered that the
proposed fees could cause a loss of taxi drivers and as a result Norfolk County
Council would struggle to cover some of its services. He felt that savings could
instead be made administratively by moving to three-year licences and the subsidy
gradually being reduced.
Mr C Andrews, a taxi operator and representing North Norfolk Taxi Association said
that the handbook did not include contract work and if it was revised, the taxi trade
Licensing and Appeals Committee
21 May 2012
should be consulted further. The trade would prefer more clarity on rights and
wrongs. He asked that the proposals be deferred for further consultation. The public
should have more access to taxis but the proposals could restrict this.
The Chairman reminded Members of the working party which had been set up to look
into the revision of the taxi licensing policy, handbook, licence conditions and
associated licence fees. As part of the review, they had looked at a legislation
handbook for all districts in Norfolk. It was a reasonable expectation for neighbouring
districts to have the same rules, so this was an opportunity to move closer towards
that. Members also needed to consider looking at a cost neutral service at the end of
this administration.
In response to a question, the Licensing Manager explained the reason for the
proposed revised licence fee structure. Historically, the Council had always sought to
cover its direct costs. Further representations from the taxi trade had shown that the
original proposed increase was considered to be too steep. In response, the
minimum costs which needed to be recovered had been looked at and £90 was
found to be the minimum. Option 1 was for an increase whilst option 2 was for a
subsidy to be reviewed after three years. The cost of a new licence had been
reduced to the same cost as a renewal so that it did not become a barrier to entry.
A Member expressed concern over the effect of a move towards a non-subsided taxi
service which would affect coaches. She also suggested that perhaps councils
should move towards one overall licensing authority. The Environmental Health
Manager explained that any subsidy system was carried out through Norfolk County
Council. The Council had to identify a series of savings including additional income.
The Chairman added that it was in the Council’s interest to make contact with other
authorities as approximately 80% of the handbook could be the same.
The Chairman stated that as the Council issued taxi licences, it was the Council’s
responsibility in law to protect the rights of the public and it would be inappropriate for
Officers not to interview a taxi driver.
With reference to 3.2, Mr B Hannah considered that the proposals brought in too
much too soon and proposed instead a fee of £60 be made to be increased to £90 in
three years’ time. It was proposed by Mr R Reynolds and seconded by Mrs A
Claussen-Reynolds that the Councils adopt Option 1. Mr B Hannah withdrew his
proposal. It was proposed by Mrs P Grove-Jones and seconded by Mrs A Sweeney
that the Council adopts Option 2. Upon being put to the vote, 5 Members voted in
favour of Option 1 and 4 against; and 4 Members voted in favour of Option 2 and 5
against. Option 1 was therefore carried.
An amendment to proposal 3.4 in the report, was proposed by Mr B Hannah and
seconded by Mrs A Sweeney - That in introducing the requirement for all drivers and
applicants to have a group 2 medical on a three yearly basis, that flexibility be given
for those individuals who currently hold alternative driving qualifications (such as PSV
or HGV drivers licences) to submit their medical reports on a six yearly cycle unless
medical contradictions exist. Upon being put to the vote, this was carried by 7 votes
to 2.
RECOMMENDED to Full Council
a. That the Council offers applicants the ability to apply for either a 1 year licence or
a 3 year licence. The fees for a 3 year licence (new or renewal) would be set at
a level that covers the Council costs (£170).
Licensing and Appeals Committee
21 May 2012
b. That the fee for 1 year licences be set at a level to provide preferential
transitional arrangements for drivers on a stepped incremental basis (i.e. 1 year
licence would increase to £90 for the current year with a review on an annual
basis).
c. That the requirement for a Driving Standards Assessment is introduced on a
voluntary (rather that compulsory) basis at the present time with the ability for the
Licensing authority to make it a mandatory requirement in cases where concern
over a particular drive for applicant has been raised. The Council encourage all
taxi drivers to obtain recognised professional training and qualifications
throughout their career to assist with probity checks.
d. All drivers and applicants to have a group 2 medical on a six yearly basis, unless
medical contradictions exist.
e. That the following licence fee structure for 2012/13 be approved:
LICENCE TYPE
Existing
fee
new
fee
2012
£90
likely
fee
2013
For
review
likely
fee
2014
For
review
Licence to Drive
Hackney Carriages
or Private Hire
Vehicles
New licence valid
for 1 year
£102.38
Licence to Drive
Hackney Carriages
or Private Hire
Vehicles
Licence to Drive
Hackney Carriages
or Private Hire
Vehicles
New licence valid
for 3 years
Not
applicable
£170
£170
£170
Renewal of licence
valid for 1 year
£48.82
£90
£130
£170
Licence to Drive
Hackney Carriages
or Private Hire
Vehicles
Hackney Carriage
Vehicle Licence
Private Hire
Vehicle Licence
Private Hire
Operators Licence
Renewal of licence
valid for 3 years
Not
applicable
£170
£170
£170
New or renewal –
valid 1 year
New or renewal –
valid 1 year
New or renewal –
valid 5 years
£138.43
£190
£190
£190
£138.43
£190
£190
£190
£145.33
£150
£150
£150
f)That, for the avoidance of doubt, the proposed Penalty Points System table “using a
mobile phone, radio hand set, eating or drinking whilst the vehicle is in motion” be
amended by adding the expression “unless specifically exempted by law”.
Mr B Smith voted against (f) and Mr B Hannah abstained from voting on (f).
The Legal Advisor clarified that the penalty points scheme in the handbook did not
put points on to a driver’s DVLA driving licence and also, there would be the
possibility to appeal against penalty points. The Licensing Manager added that the
proposed penalty points system had been in use by several authorities around the
country.
Licensing and Appeals Committee
21 May 2012
Members suggested a number of amendments to the handbook but it was explained
that it would be an ongoing process.
The meeting was adjourned at 12.10pm and reconvened at 12.20pm.
8
CHANGES TO THE LAW AFFECTING SALE OF ALCOHOL AND
ENTERTAINMENT LICENSING
The report updated Members on recent changes to the law.
With reference to health authorities being able to make representations, Mr B
Hannah considered that they should be made to respond.
9
TO RECEIVE UPDATES ON MEMBERS TASK AND FINISH GROUPS
Taxi Driver Association
The Chairman asked whether now that there was a Taxi Driver Association, whether
a representative from the Council should be invited to attend their meetings.
Members of the Committee agreed with this.
Street Trading
The Licensing Manager said that this working party needed to meet more frequently
in order to move things on. Recommendations should come from the working party
to the September meeting of the Committee.
Gambling Policy
The Licensing Manager said that by the end of year, by law, the Council needed to
have reviewed its Gambling Policy and a working party would be needed to be set up
for this purpose. He would email all Members of the Committee to ask for any
interest in being on the working party.
The meeting closed at 12.55pm.
_____________________
Chairman
Licensing and Appeals Committee
21 May 2012