LICENSING AND APPEALS SUB-COMMITTEE
Minutes of a meeting of the Licensing and Appeals Sub-Committee held on 18
January 2012 in the Council Chamber, Council Offices, Holt Road, Cromer at
10.00am.
1
Sub-Committee
Mr B Smith (Chairman)
Mrs A Claussen-Reynolds
Mrs P Grove-Jones
Officers in Attendance:
The Legal Advisor, the Licensing Manager and the
Democratic Services Team Leader (MMH)
Also in Attendance:
The Applicant (for item 5), the Driver (for item 6)
APOLOGIES
None received.
2
ITEMS OF URGENT BUSINESS
None received.
3
DECLARATIONS OF INTEREST
None
4
EXCLUSION OF THE PRESS AND PUBLIC
Members decided that they wished to go into Private session for items 5 and 6 to
hear fully from the Applicant and consider matters in confidence.
RESOLVED
That under S100 A (4) of the Local Government Act 1972, the public and press be
excluded from the meeting for Agenda Item No 4 on the grounds that it involved the
likely disclosure of exempt information as defined in paragraph 1 of Part 1 of
Schedule 12 (a) of the Act.
5
WK/110028420 – APPLICATION FOR A LICENCE TO DRIVE HACKNEY
CARRIAGE OR PRIVATE HIRE VEHICLES IN NORTH NORFOLK
The Applicant was present.
The Chairman introduced the Panel and Officers. The Legal Advisor outlined the
procedure. She explained that, at a later stage, the Panel would withdraw to make
a decision. She would accompany them to provide legal advice and to assist them to
formulate their reasons but would not take part in the making of the decision. The
Applicant needed to satisfy the Sub Committee that he was a fit and proper person to
drive a hackney carriage or private hire vehicles in North Norfolk.
The Licensing Manager outlined the application. In May 2010 the Applicant had been
issued with a taxi licence by Broadland District Council. This had been determined by
a Hearing. The paperwork was not available to North Norfolk District Council
because of data protection reasons. There were items on the Applicant’s CRB check
Licensing Sub-Committee
18 January 2012
WK/110028420 – APPLICATION FOR A LICENCE TO DRIVE HACKNEY
CARRIAGE OR PRIVATE HIRE VEHICLES IN NORTH NORFOLK
(Continued)
which merited further consideration. One of the Applicant’s references, from his
doctor, also merited consideration.
The CRB and reference were presented to the Sub Committee for perusal.
The Applicant put his case. He said that he was the victim of the first offence and that
the Court had subsequently overturned the fine. The other offence had been
committed when he was younger. Neither offence had involved vehicles. He had
now recovered from his depression. He was now a taxi driver in the Broadland
District and had his own vehicle but wanted to work in North Norfolk because he lived
in Stalham. The Licensing Manager explained to the Sub Committee that a taxi
licence was only valid for the issuing district.
In response to a question from the Legal Advisor regarding his offence of being drunk
and disorderly, the Applicant said that the Court had remitted the fine but he had not
been acquitted. He agreed that the incident was probably at the time of his
depression. He told the Sub Committee that he only drank alcohol occasionally and
had not taken drugs for a long time. He had never dealt drugs. With reference to the
doctor’s letter, the Applicant was asked about his history of alcohol dependence. The
Applicant said that was a long time ago and he would not describe himself as
alcohol-dependent at the present time. In response to a question from Mrs A
Claussen-Reynolds the Applicant said that he had experienced no problems as a taxi
driver in Broadland. He had a clean licence and a badge from Norfolk County Council
for doing school runs.
In a closing statement the Applicant asked that, in making their decision, the Sub
Committee should take into consideration that he had been licensed as a taxi driver
for 2 years in Broadland.
The Legal Advisor explained the determination process; to grant a licence, Members
must be satisfied that the Applicant was a fit and proper person to drive a taxi in
North Norfolk.
a) Members would need to consider the Applicant’s CRB and doctor’s letter, the
seriousness and relevance to driving a taxi, the length of time since offences
were committed and the penalties imposed.
b) They must consider what the Applicant said in regard to the offences and to
himself.
c) They must balance the right of the Applicant to earn a living with the right of
the public to be safe.
d) The Sub Committee should not take the Broadland District Council and
Norfolk County Council licences into consideration. The decision should be
their own, on behalf of the people of North Norfolk.
The Sub Committee retired at 10.30 am to consider their decision and returned at
10.48 am.
The Chairman told the Applicant that the Sub-Committee had considered relevant
written and oral evidence before it including the drink and drugs offences on the CRB
disclosure and the doctor’s letter. It had listened to what he said, including that he no
longer drank regularly, he did not use drugs and that he held a clean driving licence.
They had taken into consideration that the Applicant’s offences occurred over 3 years
ago and that his relationship with alcohol was in the past. Having listened to and
Licensing Sub-Committee
18 January 2012
WK/110028420 – APPLICATION FOR A LICENCE TO DRIVE HACKNEY
CARRIAGE OR PRIVATE HIRE VEHICLES IN NORTH NORFOLK
(Continued)
considered all the information, the Sub-Committee deemed therefore that the
Applicant was a fit and proper person to hold a taxi licence. However, should he
come before a Licensing Sub Committee because of alcohol-related offences in the
future, his licence could be revoked.
RESOLVED
To grant the licence.
6
REPORT REGARDING NOTIFIED CONVICTION RELATED TO LICENCE TO
DRIVE HACKNEY CARRIAGE OR PRIVATE HIRE VEHICLES IN NORTH
NORFOLK
The Driver was present.
The Chairman introduced the Panel and Officers. The Legal Advisor outlined the
procedure. She explained that, at a later stage, the Panel would withdraw to make a
decision. She would accompany them to provide legal advice and to assist them to
formulate their reasons but would not take part in the making of the decision. The
Driver needed to satisfy the Sub Committee that he was a fit and proper person to
drive a hackney carriage or private hire vehicles in North Norfolk.
The Licensing Manager outlined the application. A notification had been received
from the Driver that on 2 December 2011 he had been disqualified from driving for 14
days by Cambridge Magistrates Court in relation to a speeding offence. The Driver
had held a licence for a number of years and historically had 6 points on his licence.
He had also informed the Council that he had a medical condition that was kept
under control by medication. There was no reason to believe that this was an issue.
The Driver had not brought his driving licence but confirmed that the copy held by the
Licensing Manager, though not current, was correct.
The Driver put his case: on 2 December 2011 he had been stopped on the A11 by an
unmarked police car because he was speeding. He had admitted to the offence and
had no passenger in the taxi. He had been feeling frustrated at the time having spent
3 hours waiting at Stansted Airport for a customer who had eventually taken another
taxi despite efforts by the Driver and his operator to contact him. The Driver had been
disqualified from driving for 14 days and had completed the sentence. A fine of £300
had also been imposed.
The papers from Cambridge Magistrates Court were passed to the Sub Committee
for their perusal.
Mrs P Grove-Jones asked the Driver about the other points on his licence. He
replied that they were incurred because of 2 offences in 2011: speeding in Norwich
and using a mobile phone when driving. These had occurred after his taxi licence
had been reviewed in May 2011. Replying to a question from the Chairman the Legal
Advisor said that although it was unhelpful not being able to see the Driver’s current
licence, he had told the Sub Committee about the offences and the Hearing could
continue.
Licensing Sub-Committee
18 January 2012
REPORT REGARDING NOTIFIED CONVICTION RELATED TO LICENCE TO
DRIVE HACKNEY CARRIAGE OR PRIVATE HIRE VEHICLES IN NORTH
NORFOLK
(Continued)
The Licensing Manager was unaware that these offences had been committed.
However the Licensing Handbook stated that convictions should be reported but did
not specify that this should include fixed penalty tickets etc. Under the current rules a
driver did not necessarily have to report an offence unless it went to Court. This
ambiguity needed to be remedied.
The Legal Advisor explained the determination process; to grant a licence, Members
must be satisfied that the Applicant was a fit and proper person to drive a taxi in
North Norfolk.
a) Members would need to consider the Driver’s driving offences and
disqualification from driving imposed by Cambridge Magistrates Court. For
the purposes of Licensing endorsements were never spent.
b) They must consider what the Driver said in regard to the offences and to
himself, and that he had reported his conviction to the Council.
c) They must balance the right of the Driver to earn a living with the right of the
public to be safe.
The Sub Committee retired at 11.20 am to consider their decision and returned at
11.40 am.
The Chairman told the Driver that the Sub-Committee had considered relevant
written and oral evidence before it, including the Driver’s driving convictions with 6
current penalty points from 2011 and a recent 14 day disqualification. Members
considered these as serious matters. However, the Sub-Committee had listened to
what the Driver said about the offences. He had informed the Council himself of the
offences and it was particularly noted that you had no one else in the taxi at the time
of the offences
The Sub-Committee deemed therefore that he was a fit and proper person to hold a
taxi licence. However, should he come before a Licensing Sub Committee because
further offences in the future, his licence could be revoked.
The Driver was asked to supply his original DVLA licence to the Licensing Manager.
RESOLVED
To take no further action.
The meeting concluded at 11.45 am.
___________________
Chairman
26 March 2012
Licensing Sub-Committee
18 January 2012