TRANSCRIPT OF TAPED INTERVIEW
with
DR MARTIN SKINNER
Key:
TK
TK
HN
MS
Tim KELLY
Hilary NESI
Dr Martin SKINNER
O.K. I am a young student who has never attended university. What is a
seminar? Can you describe a typical one for me?
MS
A typical seminar might be a group of about 20 - 25 students, and the
seminar will usually be given in conjunction to a course of lectures, so
there might be a lecture every week. And these might be rather large
gatherings of students, of a 100 or more, where the lecturer will talk,
show slides and introduce topics and talk about reading. And then they’ll
be backed up with seminars. These might be weekly, or they might be
fortnightly. And they will probably be related to the lecture material, or
some of the readings around the lecture. And there will be a small group
where there might be a task to do, to have read something, or to have
considered some questions. And in the seminar you’ll come along and
discuss particular issues, with some preparation in advance usually.
TK
O.K. So what exactly do I do in a seminar?
MS
Well, usually for a seminar you’d have something to prepare. There
might be a reading - a chapter from a book, or a scientific article to have
looked at. And at the seminar there’ll be some questions about it. Or it
might indeed be that some people within the seminar group have been
given a specific task of reading an article and being prepared to stand up
and talk about it, and then answer questions on it. It may be that in a
group of 25, perhaps a sub-group of 5, each time there’s a seminar, will
1
have a particular paper to discuss. And it will be their turn to sort of take
charge of proceedings. That’s one way that they sometimes go.
TK
O.K. So I may have to do some preparation before the seminar?
MS
There is usually some preparation to do for a seminar. Sometimes not.
Sometimes the seminar is just understood as a particular resource where
students can come along and ask questions about the lecture. In a lecture
the lecturer has usually got 50 minutes of material to get through, and
there’s quite a lot of material. And the lecturer will say that there’ll be a
chance to discuss issues arising from the lecture in the seminar. So you
come along to the seminar, having thought about the lecture, being
prepared to ask questions. These might be factual questions. A sentence
that you haven’t understood, or a point that’s not been made very clearly.
Or you might have done some reading that was recommended in the
seminar, and there might be something in the reading that you didn’t
understand. Really a seminar, on most courses I think, a seminar is a
back-up to the lecture course, to expand and enlarge upon what goes on
within the lecture.
TK
O.K. So what is the purpose of the seminar? How am I supposed to
benefit from the seminar? What can I take away from the seminar?
MS
There are a number of things that you might take away from the seminar.
First of all, more information. The lecturer gives information. You’ve
got reading to do. You can take - you can go there with questions to ask
about the reading, and they may be critical questions - things you haven’t
agreed with. Or there may be a comprehension question - things you
haven’t understood. So certainly you take away information from the
seminar.
2
And then, there is participation in seminars. There’s no time really for
participation in lectures. I mean there might be an opportunity to put
one’s hand up and ask a question, but it can only have a fairly short
answer. In a seminar you might be able to discuss things. So one of the
things we can come away from a seminar with, in addition to information,
is the experience of participating and talking, and trying out ideas, of
hearing other people’s ideas. There is more - more interaction in a
seminar, than there can ever be in a lecture.
TK
O.K. Well, I’m a terribly shy student, and there’s nothing more I fear
than speaking aloud in public, and in fact the very thought makes me feel
ashamed. Can you give me any advice on what to do, or help me in any
way?
MS
I think most students can feel self-conscious or embarrassed about talking
in seminars - as indeed they might feel self-conscious about asking a
question in a lecture - or even participating in a tutorial. That’s - that’s
very well understood. I think the lecturers taking the seminars are
sympathetic to this and would help people. I think you have to realise
everybody starts out fairly self-conscious. When there’s a programme of
seminars taking place - perhaps the first one, all the students are rather
self-conscious, and then as they meet week after week, or every fortnight,
as the course goes on, they begin to know better the people around them,
and feel more confident. But for people who really are too shy ever to
participate in any sort of teaching event, there are courses put on by the
Student Counselling Service, where people can go along and - and - try to
improve their overall confidence at participating. Having said this, lots of
students sit through seminars and don’t say much, and perhaps the
lecturer might stop them and get them to ask a question, but it is possible
3
to say little. But it would certainly be encouraged to try to participate because it isn’t difficult to participate. Nobody’s going to be too critical,
and the more one participates, the more one can learn.
TK
O.K. I come from overseas. My English is poor. I want to express some
ideas I have, but I can’t always find the right words. Is there any advice
you can give me? - or….?
MS
Students whose first language is not English are obviously going to have
some sort of difficulty that native speakers won’t have. I think that
obviously a certain level of proficiency in English is a requirement, one
would need to have to get into the university. I think it just takes a little
bit of time to get used to the way - how things are spoken about. There
are courses that can be taken while you are here at Warwick. It just is
something that grows - confidence and ability to speak, just comes with
practice. Just being here and doing it. And that, after all, is what the
course is about. Nobody expects anybody to be perfect at the beginning
of the course. It’s just at the end of the course you’re perfect!
TK
O.K. So I should - you know, even if I make mistakes in the way I
express myself, I should still try and express myself?
MS
I’m all for students trying to express themselves Whatever sorts of
mistakes they might make, that doesn’t really matter. The most important
thing is that people participate in the learning process - they talk, they
discuss, they share ideas. They make mistakes - everybody does. But it’s
only in making mistakes and seeing what they are that one really learns.
TK
How do I shine in a seminar?
MS
I think there’s no - there’s no real criteria for success in seminars. Most
seminars aren’t assessed. There’s no marks given out for seminars.
Sometimes when people have a paper to present in a seminar - I mean
4
over the course of seminars, all the students in the - in a seminar - would
have a chance to present some sort of paper, or some sort of discussion.
The tutor might give some feedback on how good the visual aids were,
and how clear the presentation was, and how well it was organised, and
on some modules I suspect there is a very small proportion of the overall
marks for the course might be based on presentation. It might only be
about 5% of the overall marks - but for most seminars, they are not
assessed. And there’s no real prizes or criteria for good or bad Just to
participate, and think and air the issues. There is no - there is no shining
to be done in a seminar - it’s just participating in a learning process. And
also to help other people. Your ideas are going to help other people.
Your questions are going to help other help. The sorts of questions you
might ask might be just the ones that other people - want to ask, or need to
ask, and haven’t been able to - because they haven’t articulated or
formulated the idea. Or perhaps they were too shy. And indeed, other
people will ask questions that you yourself will find useful. So, it’s a very
much a co-operative and collaborative form of learning, I think, in
seminars.
TK
And conversely, what’s the worst thing I can do in a seminar? Is there a
cardinal sin?
MS
I think probably the worst thing to do in a seminar is not to do anything
before you get there. I think if you just turn up to the seminar, having not
looked at the work, people will talk about things - and maybe some of it
you’ll take in, but it won’t mean nearly as much as if you’ve done some
work - done some reading before you get there. And I think not to
participate. Just to sit there, hiding and wanting it to pass by, and looking
forward to the end of it so you can just get out, is a sin. It’s there. It’s a
5
50 minute slot usually. Participate. Ask questions. Participate. So I
guess the minus then is not to do any work before the seminar, and
perhaps the slightly bigger sin is not to participate in it once you’re there.
TK
O.K. There’s only - I think when you talked a little bit about assessment -
MS
M’m?
TK
Most things are formally assessed you said?
MS
Yes.
TK
It there a kind of informal or indirect kind of assessment, in the sense that
the impression I give in a seminar, or a student gives in a seminar will
affect the way tutors think of me, and hence ultimately impact on my
grade?
MS
I think people perform differently in seminars, and there is no formal
assessment. I think it might give the tutor an impression of how hard a
particular person is working or what sort of ideas one particular person
has, as opposed to another - but different people do different seminars.
And some people perform better in some seminars than others. So there’s
no overall impact I think of a student from the seminars. They’re
supposed to be a teaching and learning occasion, rather than assessment
occasion. And indeed, different students do differently on different
people’s seminars, according to how they’re run. And what the topic is.
And how much preparation they’ve done, and whereabouts it comes on
the overall course.
TK
O.K.
MS
That might be a bit indirect. But I think - all I’m trying to say is - while
you might get the impression that one particular tutor - student is rather
good, I think another one - you know - another person, in another tutorial,
would probably have a different idea about that student, and I think
6
inevitably over a three year period you begin to realise who your good
students are, and who - you know - who the less good students are, or the
students who aren’t working so hard are. You have some sort of idea by
the end of the course. It’s not always - you know - sometimes it’s a
surprise when exam results are eventually known, quiet students turn out
to be rather good, and students who participated a lot and seemed to be
saying a lot having done so well in the exams. But, on the whole, I mean,
there’s a - it’s not a surprise who the good students are, and the
performance in seminars is usually a good indication of this. Students
who have obviously asked a lot of questions and seem to be on the ball
with the reading, who just know what’s going on, and have thought about
it a lot, they’re usually the students who will do better in the exams and
the essays, because they are more motivated as well as well as being more
able.
TK
O.K. One last question. I think it’s the last one, which is not on our list.
You say students often have to give presentations. Now I’ve never given
a presentation - I mean -
MS
M’m?
TK
Can you give me any advice on how to give a presentation? Is that a fair
question?
MS
Well, I mean, there’s essays and tutorials. I haven’t talked about tutorials.
I mean in our department essays are discussed in tutorials, you see. Let
me think about answering that question, which was really “Any advice for
a presentation?”
TK
Yeah.
MS
Sometimes in seminars students or a sub-group of the overall seminar
group have a paper to present. I think the advice to give is to make it
7
simple. The work you do is in rendering down a lot of information in a
paper, into a small amount of information. So I would advise students
who are doing presentations not to say too much. Not to try and put over
too much information. They may only have, say, 10 minutes, or a quarter
of an hour, to give some sort of summary or résumé of a paper, or an
argument, or a chapter in a book. I think the thing to do is to think
carefully about the overall points - not to put too much information
across, and if - if the students are showing visual aids, on OHPs or slides,
not to put too much information on them. I think to speak slowly, not to
try to speak too quickly. I think as well, not to read. When - in a lot of
the seminars I have to give where students do have presentations to give,
they tend to work very hard, understanding a paper, and writing notes.
They may come along with a sheet of notes, and they look down, and they
read the notes. They read them fast and they don’t look up. And what
they need to do - and what makes a much better presentation, and
everyone in the rest of the group usually agrees with this - is that if you
look up a lot, you engage the audience, and they start to listen and try to
understand. And the students that do the best presentations are the ones
that don’t read notes. They may have a few notes in front of them, but
they don’t look at them. They’re just there in case they lose their way, or
maybe they are some sort of comfort. But the best presentations are the
ones where the students speak. Just speak their thoughts. On the basis of
the notes that they have made. But they don’t read and they look up and
they engage the audience. And that gets the discussion going.
TK
O.K. Thanks very much.
8
MS
That is the truth. I mean they come along, and they work so hard. You
can see they’ve got five sides to their calling???? - Errr! - and they just
gabble it off really fast!
TK
I know!
MS
And the ones - the ones who just stand there and say, “Well, if you
understand this and this…. And then there is that argument, and then
there’s this.” Everyone sort of understands what they’re saying. And
then you get the questions. And that’s the experience. It’s the sort of the confidence to forget about the notes, and just talk, you know.
TK
Yeah. O.K. I can’t think about anything else. Is there anything else you
wanted to say about seminars? Or do you want to say something about
gathering???? people from tutorials?
MS
There is tutorials. But in our department tutorials are sort of a small - a
small thing. I mean students generally have them in the first year. Sorry,
are you going …. ?
TK
You carry on.
MS
Yeah. In addition to seminars - certainly in the psychology department
where I work, we always have tutorials, especially in the first year - in
fact almost exclusively in the first year. They’re in addition to lectures
and seminars. There are tutorials. Students are assigned a personal tutor,
who also is the person who marks their essays in the first year. All of
their essays. In the second and third year, essays count towards the final
degree in my department. And they are marked by the people taking the
course. But in the first year, all of the essays that you do are marked by
your personal tutor. And you have a tutorial. This will be a group of
about 6 or 7 students, and you go and see your tutor, maybe about once a
fortnight. And that’s a much more free-flowing discussion than a
9
seminar. A seminar has something to talk about usually - a chapter from a
book, or an article to talk about. But in a tutorial, people just turn up, and
we have questions and answers about any particular problems that have
come up in the lectures during the week. But also I will have marked
their essays, and I’ll hand the essays back and I won’t ask the students to
read the essays out. I mean some universities and some departments do
that. But we certainly talk about the essays. I ask them to comment on
what I’ve written. Is it fair? and do they understand it? And what sort of
mark would they give in their essay themselves? Do they agree with my
mark? - and things like that. And that often leads to more general
discussion. And that’s quite an important arena really for a much more
informal discussion of the course. How it’s going and what particular
difficulties there are. So, between them, the tutorials - small and
informal; the seminars - two-way discussion, but fairly task orientated
and structured - and the lecture, which is very much a one-way discussion,
which is very large and structured. All three of those activities are
involved in getting through the material on the course.
TK
Now those, of course, are the three sort of traditional -
MS
M’m.
TK
- methods of delivery in universities -
MS
Yeah.
TK
Do you have any other, or experimental, or different kinds of teaching
methods?
MS
Yes. I mean, having mentioned the lecture, the seminar, the tutorial that’s not the only contact that one has with the teaching materials - or
indeed to people teaching the courses. The Web and the Net are very
important devices. The university has a very good internal network -
10
through e-mail and websites, which are a very important part of
interacting with the course - and even interacting with lecturers.
Lecturers put notes on websites. They are contactable by e-mail, which is
a very convenient way of asking for a particular question and waiting for
an answer. Then, of course, seeing lecturers as individuals is something
that’s easily available. Some lecturers are available all the time. Some
lecturers have particular times when they are available, particular office
hours. It’s always possible to go and knock on a door. Certainly the
psychology department has an open door policy, and students are
encouraged to knock on the door and ask the question. - Or send an email, or make a telephone call, to arrange a time when they can sit down
and just talk one-to-one, and that’s often a way of interacting with
students who find it hard in a seminar, can at least get into the material.
Can go and have a one-to-one discussion. It shouldn’t be excluded.
TK
Great! That’s great.
MS
Yeah. That’s true, I mean. Yeah. And I think that’s all really.
11