Minutes of the Academic Standards Committee, October 4, 2013
Present: Drew Anderson, Debbie Chee, Ken Clark, Karl Fields, Jim Jasinski, Kristin
Johnson, Sunil Kukreja, Martins Linauts (chair), Gary McCall, Brad Tomhave, Landon
Wade, Keith Ward
The meeting convened at 3:06 p.m. in the McCormick Room of the Library.
The committee approved the minutes of the meeting of September 20, 2013, as amended.
Chair Linauts reminded committee members to send hard and digital copies of approved minutes to Jimmy McMichael ( jmcmichael@pugetsound.edu
, cmb 1020).
Brad Tomhave delivered the Petitions Subcommittee Report
Petitions Report for the Period 09/18/2013 – 10/01/2013
During the dates covered by this report, the following actions were taken on petitions submitted to the Academic Standards Committee:
9 Approved Late Adds
1 Denied Late Add
1 Approved change in Registration from Graded to Pass/Fail
3 Approved change in Registrations from Credit to Audit
1 Approved change in Registration from Audit to Credit
1 Approved Registration with a Schedule Conflict
1 Approved Late Drop without Record
1 Denied Appeal of Transfer Credit Evaluation
18 Total Petitions
Registrar Approved: 3
Preview Team Approved: 8
Sub-Committee Approved: 5
Total Approved: 16
Sub-Committee Denied: 2
Total Petitions: 19
Of particular interest was the petition submitted by the student appealing the transfer credit evaluation as the petition posed a challenge to the academic policy on credit earned prior to high school graduation.
If the Committee receives a charge from the Faculty Senate that would allow the policy to be reviewed, the petitioner would welcome an opportunity to appear before the
Committee to discuss the policy from a student’s perspective.

Linauts reported that he consulted the chair of the Curriculum Committee in order to coordinate the policy discussion on concurrent dual baccalaureate degrees. The
Curriculum Committee is not yet ready to participate in the discussion.
Linauts also reported that he had communicated to the ASC Senate liaison the committee requests for additional charges (formulated at the last meeting of the ASC), but that the Senate currently has a backlog of business and may take some time considering our request. In the meantime the ASC will address the charges already approved by the Senate.
For the remainder of the meeting, the committee discussed the issue of whether, and under what conditions, Puget Sound should issue concurrent baccalaureate degrees.
Tomhave provided some background to the issue. Last year the Petitions
Subcommittee considered a number of petitions from students to allow concurrent dual baccalaureate degrees. Current rules only allow for a second baccalaureate degree only after a student has graduated, has returned to Puget Sound, and has completed eight additional units (and the requirement for the second major). Last year the Petitions
Subcommittee concluded that some students have valid reasons to want dual, concurrent baccalaureate degrees, and had completed the coursework to earn two degrees. The most common situations involved students wanting the following combinations: Bachelor of Science/Bachelor of Music, Bachelor of Science/Bachelor of
Arts, or Bachelor of Music/Bachelor of Arts. Having approved those petitions last year, the Subcommittee decided that, in fairness, all students identified by the Registrar’s
Office as qualifying for dual degrees should be notified, and should be offered the opportunity to petition for dual degrees. A few such students did decide to pursue dual degrees. The Petitions Subcommittee requested that the ASC consider a new policy on this issue.
Wade argued that any new policy on dual concurrent baccalaureate degrees should dissuade students from getting two degrees simply by reaching 40 units, and should grant concurrent dual degrees only for legitimate academic reasons.
Ward reported that the Bachelor of Music degree, like the Bachelor of Science degree, has many unique requirements and students deserve recognition of that. He noted that other schools offer concurrent dual degrees, for example University of Washington and
Oberlin College.
Fields raised the issue of whether a new policy should allow a Bachelor of Arts in history who later wants to return to the university and pursue a major in Politics and
Government. Tomhave responded that our current policy requires a minimum of 8 additional units after graduation, plus all of major requirements for a second degree.
Anderson asked about the value of getting dual degrees instead of two majors within a single degree. Several committee members responded with examples of situations in which having dual degrees could make a significant difference to employers (for example, a student who might approach an employer with a Bachelor of Music degree with a second major in Chemistry versus a Bachelor of Science degree with a major
Chemistry).

Kukreja argued that we should be less concerned about the value of the dual degrees to the end user, which we are unable to accurately assess, and more concerned about the coherence and academic principles behind any new policy.
Ward suggested that might need to have some sort of a unit threshold for earning a dual degree, and suggested that we simply adopt our current threshold of 40 units.
Johnson asked why we currently require graduation before a student can earn a second degree.
Clark advised that any new policy must not create a situation where a student who graduates, and then returns for a second degree, is essentially penalized for not having completed the required units for a second degree concurrently.
Ward responded that establishing a 40 unit standard for a second degree would avoid this problem.
Anderson wanted to know why we would need to require 40 units for second degrees, if students were able to complete both degrees with less than 40 units.
Wade reported that in talking with graduate schools, dual degrees only mattered in those cases where there were legitimate reasons for them, and that those situations were relatively rare.
The committee then considered whether any new policy should allow for the granting of two degrees in the same degree category (for example, a Bachelor of Science in geology and a Bachelor of Science in physics), and instead allow such a student to earn an additional major in the same degree (for example, a Bachelor of Science with a double major in geology and physics).
Ward pointed out that those students pursuing a Bachelor of Science or a Bachelor of
Music, find it almost impossible to double major.
Tomhave said that there was enough overlap between some majors to allow some
Bachelor of Science students to double major. For example, a Physics major needs 4 more Mathematics courses plus CSCI 161 to earn a second major in Mathematics.
Jasinski, looking at the Registrar’s Office list of students from 2012-13 (students who would theoretically be eligible for concurrent dual degrees), noted that there was a case of a student wanting to earn a Bachelor of Science in Economics and Bachelor of
Science in Chemistry, and that those two degrees have little overlap. The same situation could occur where students might want to earn concurrent dual Bachelor of Arts degrees in English and History, or a Language and some other area.
McCall questioned whether most employers really care what the degree says.
Fields suggested that we might want to dissuade students from thinking that they need multiple degrees within the same degree area.
Clark suggested that we might require those students seeking a concurrent dual degree in the same degree area (as opposed to a single degree with a double major) to petition

the ASC and to make a case that there was little overlap in the coursework for each degree.
Anderson expressed concern that students entering with 8 Advanced Placement credits could virtually get a second degree with those imported units.
Kukreja argued that if we accept AP units we should not devalue them when it comes to earning a dual degree. He argued that the key issue is whether the two academic areas are sufficiently different and suggested that any new policy define "different" in measurable terms.
Jasinski proposed a policy that accepts BA/BM, BA/BS/, BS/BM concurrent dual degree combinations, but makes all other students petition for a dual concurrent degree.
Johnson and Chee expressed concern that requiring all other students to petition could put poorly advised or less assertive students at a disadvantage.
W ade supported Jasinski’s proposal.
Anderson asked whether under this policy students would be advised to pursue concurrent dual degrees instead of one degree with two majors (i.e. a BA in English and
BS degree in Computer Science, vs. a BS in Computer Science with a second major in
English).
Ward suggested that our policy could simply state that a first degree requires 32 units and 40 units is required for a second degree.
Share suggested that in order to create some consistency, we’ll need to modify rules for students returning after graduation so as to disallow dual degrees within the same degree area.
Anderson raised the concern that poorly advised students might earn 40 units and then expect dual concurrent degrees within the same degree category (for example, a BS in exercise science and a BS in chemistry, or a BA in politics and a BA in international political economy)
Ward argued that such cases would be rare and that the burden of students petitioning in such cases would be manageable.
Johnson suggested that maybe the university could just keep notifying students who may qualify for dual degrees, and essentially offer them the choice to apply for a second degree via the petitions process.
Tomhave argued that the faculty needs to decide a policy on this issue rather than rely exclusively on the petitioning process.
The discussion appeared to embrace a policy stating that a second degree, whether completed in sequence or concurrently, requires 40 units and must be across different degree categories (BA/BM, BA/BS/, BS/BM).

Chee raised concern that such a new policy could lead to an increase in the average years-to-graduation rate.
Wade raised concerns that the new policy could have financial aid implications as students pursuing a concurrent dual degree could use their available financial aid.
Linauts suggested that the Committee revisit the issue of concurrent dual degrees at its next meeting.
The meeting was adjourned at 4:02 p.m.
Submitted by Don Share