Northern Rockies Training Committee
March 12-13, 2007 Spring Meeting, Lewistown, MT
ATTENDEES:
Beth Card (bcard@fs.fed.us), Chairperson Dakota Prairie Grasslands
Paul Fieldhouse (pfieldhouse@fs.fed.us), Northern Rockies Training Center
Vickie Ellickson (vellickson@idl.idaho.gov), Idaho Department of Lands
Paul Pallas (paul_pallas@fws.gov), FWS - CMR
Sally Estes (saestes@fs.fed.us), Coeur d’Alene Dispatch Center
Randy Thomas (rcthomas@fs.fed.us), Coeur d’Alene Dispatch Center
Jim Blankenship (jblankenship@mt.gov), Montana DNRC
Tim Crosmer (tcrosmer@mt.gov), Montana DNRC
Bryan Connelley (bconnelley@centralvalleyfire.com), Montana Fire Wardens
Bert Starr (blstarr@fs.fed.us), Gallatin NF
Laura Dooley (laura_dooley@nps.gov), Yellowstone NP
Julia Genre (jgenre@fs.fed.us), Idaho Panhandle NF
Larry Elder (lelder@blm.gov), Montana BLM
Rosanna Finley (rfinley@fs.fed.us), Helena Dispatch
Kitty Ortman (kortman@fs.fed.us), Lolo NF
Rosie LeMire (rlemire@fs.fed.us), Northern Rockies Training Center
Wally Bennett (wbennett@mt.gov), Montana DNRC
Jim Chairmont (jimc@cskt.org) (Buttercup), CS&KT
Lily Huskey (lhuskey@fs.fed.us), Dakota Prairie Grasslands
Bob Cunningham (bcunningham@fs.fed.us), Northern Rockies Training Center
COMMITTEE REPORTS:
Aviation: No report
Business: No report, minutes are not out yet.
Equipment: The EQPI workshop was very well attended. Solicitation for the pre-season
inspections and training verifications will be out soon. Water handling solicitation came out just
this past Friday.
Fire Use: No report
NAC: Meeting scheduled March 9-10 in Missoula regarding a revision in the NAC plan. Topic
of discussion is the pre-hired drug test. Crewmembers who fail the NAC drug test are showing
up on the Best Value contacts. Working on a proposed list of names to share with Tim Murphy
so these folks don’t get into EaTIS.
Operations: At the Fall meeting, majority of the discussions were the IMT configurations.
Overall for 2007 there will be five Type 2 (not six as McNitt and Turman combined), two Type
1, two fire use teams.
Regarding the Faller/Sawyer module concept, all in the Ops group agreed to pursue/support.
Reviewed the R6 contract/specifications and are looking how to meet the needs for the NR.
Issue with going into PL5 with 500 crews and we only have 450 crews on the boards, how do
we still fill our needs? Rex Mann has been assigned to see how NR can we better utilize
‘heavy equipment’, has been identified that we need a THSP in heavy equipment, someone to
help be a decision maker for the right mix and the right use of equipment based on
topography, slope, land management policies, etc.
ACTION ITEM: NRTC will send Wally Bennett an email with the link on the Big
Iron technical manual that Jim Steele put together, useful/helpful information.
Page 1 of 7
January 2007 was a mandatory IC meeting. In addition an OSC and PIO was to attend as
well. Wally put together a summary paper and would be willing to share.
Prevention: [handout] ‘Registration Form’. Committee has been focusing on getting ready for
the NR/GB Fire Prevention Conference (workshop) in Coeur d’Alene, ID, May 1-3. Group will
be offering a Gondola ride for a presentation on the 1910 fires. There is an online registration
with credit card payment option available.
SAC: Minutes have not yet been distributed.
ISSUE UPDATES
Mini ACE in 2008
[handout] ‘Hilton Garden Inn Missoula and Missoula Conference Center floor plan’
Buttercup and Cunningham have been in contact with folks in Boise. The request to have a
mini ACE in Missoula, MT is still up for consideration, should be hearing back soon (April)?
Note that this session is more directed at project work (not fire), more for the DOI side.
There are opportunities to put on 200 level A-# courses. However there are some limitations.
There are only 6 BLM instructors to teach the 100 level, 7 FS to teach the 100 level and only 1
casual hire who is certified at the 200 level. At this time there are no certifying instructors in
the NR, however any training zone who is instructing any aviation suppression courses at the
local level can have an evaluator (from another GA) attend to get those instructors approved to
teach Aviation (A-#s).
Progress of Electronic IQCS Nomination Process
[handout]
“IQCS Nomination Process Test Findings’
From the 2006 testing process, the handout identifies a list of concerns with this new process.
Discussion if the local training zones are doing any electronic nominations. Southwest
Montana Zone has set-up all their courses and are ready to accept electronic nominations. If
any other zones do some experimenting, please provide your comments/perspectives to
NRTC by April 27 as the GATR meeting will be April 30 – May 5 in Boise and this will be a
topic of discussion. IQCS has been successful with the qualification process. Eventually we
will have to move away from the paper process. It appears Great Basin will fully implement
next year.
ACTION ITEM: Cunningham to send an email reminder in mid-April requesting
feedback on success/failures of electronic nomination process.
Review of Training Processes
Overall the training process from the Unit level up to the National level has not changed. We
as Training SME’s need to engage and ensure our folks know how the process works. For a
quick visual representative of the process, reference the National web page or NRTC page.
http://www.nationalfiretraining.net/nr/catalog/nomination process.pdf.
Issue with FLETC. How can we work more closely with this agency on the FI-310 and FI-210
courses.
ACTION ITEM: Cunningham to ask Law Enforcement how they do their needs
analysis. Would they have someone join the TWT committee as a FLETC
Page 2 of 7
representative as the current group feels like there is a disconnect between the
two program areas of Fire and Law Enforcement.
Review of Student Cancellation Policies
NRTC has a new Student Cancellation Policy. Regional letter and implementation date is
February 1, 2007. Basically late cancellations or no show of R1 Forest Service students
selected to attend courses at NRTC will be subject to a charge of $470 if the course seat can
not be filled. Cunningham went to the FMO’s last year, and they were okay with that.
Suggestion to have this letter put in the FS pre-work packets or have a new letter identifying
interagency cancellations. Rosie suggested that she could add the link in her electronic
notifications on selections. Another suggestion was to insert one to two paragraphs into the
current notification letter to explain the cancellation policy. Some students may not have ready
access to the internet to check a link.
ACTION ITEM: NRTC to either add a couple of paragraphs to the existing
selection notification letter explaining the cancellation policy or create a new
interagency letter and include with the selection notification letter.
NRTC does not want a phone cancellation from the student. A call from the Training Zone
representative is okay. Bottom line, NRTC wants the notification electronic/hardcopy
documentation.
L-380/L-381
Issue from Eastern Montana Zone, majority of the agency folks are DNRC and DOI agencies.
The issue is in regards to the leadership courses, on an average NR hosts two L-380 and two
L-381 and it’s the Forest Service who primarily fill these sessions. ID Dept. of Lands has the
same issue. Question, why bother submitting a nomination to NRTC when only FS students
will get selected?
Bottom line, NR is showing high needs for these courses, yet we’re not meeting the
allocation/needs.
• Because the funding is specifically coming from the Forest Service Washington Office,
NRTC is directed to fill both sessions with FS students as they are requirements for
qualification.
To help off-set this issue, BLM will be hosting an L-380 in April, DNRC has received a
Homeland Security grant to help pick up the costs to this course. BIA recently put on a
session.
[handout] ‘USDA Forest Service National Wildland Fire Operations Safety Decision Support
Briefing Paper’, dated July 16, 2004
• Three vendors nationally that can teach L-380
• One vendor who is qualified to teach L-381
Is there a reason why NRTC can’t host an L-380 or L-381 that is not funded by WO FS
monies? Cunningham indicated that logistically it’s quick and easy to host at NRTC due to the
familiarity of working with the approved vendors vs. if a Training Zone was to host a session.
Seat cost would be around $600-$1000 per seat.
Page 3 of 7
ACTION ITEM: All agreed to establish a committee, one from each zone and
Cunningham, to address the NR hosting additional L-380/L-381 sessions. Group
will look at grants and overall costs, who fills the seats (other agencies besides
the FS?).
• NIZ: Vickie Ellickson, Idaho Department of Land
• NWZ: Tim Crosmer, Montana DNRC
• SWZ: Buttercup, CS&KT; Kitty Ortman, Forest Service
• CMZ: Will take it back request back and look for a representative
• SCZ: Bob Frye, Disaster Emergency Services
• EMZ: Larry Elder, Bureau of Land Management
• NDZ: Beth Card or someone, Dakota Prairie Grasslands
• F&WS Representative: Paul Pallas
• Northern Rockies Training Center: Bob Cunningham
NRTC wasn’t aware of other leadership courses that occurring within the GA. NRTC
suggested that there may be opportunities to do some horse trading between NRTC and local
leadership sessions.
2008 Needs Analysis
Cunningham received the training zones 2008 Needs Analysis, combined and all reviewed on
the PC projector. History, this process has been around 15 years, driven by the basic unit
level supervisor.
Proposal from NRTC is to add a new column called “Potential Courses”, to help identify the
swing courses. Swing courses are put on if we can’t put on a primary course - it’s being
revised, etc. It also shows other courses that are we interested in. NRTC will also run some
ROSS reports to see how many folks are qualified, trainees, etc. to help look the value of
putting on a specific course.
ACTION ITEM: Chairperson Beth to write a letter representing the TWT to the
NRCG asking that they have someone specifically look at/address to see if NR is
meeting the objectives of WIMS, are we following procedures correctly, etc. If we
are not, look as hosting the WIMS workshop in 2008.
Discussed the target audience for S-404 Safety Officer. Primary audience is T2 Team Safety
Officers. Includes management of safety operation. Per Paul Fieldhouse, at the last course,
very few of the students mentioned wanted to obtain SOF2 qualification as a Team Safety
Officer. Most wanted the information for better operation as a Line Safety Officer. PNW
created a course to improve operations as a Line Safety Officer. This course is not officially
recognized by NWCG but PNW may try to received official sanctioning as an NWGC course.
Much discussion on benefits of both courses and which one to present at NRTC.
ACTION ITEM: By March 30, all Training Zones need to go back and clarify the 36
nominations for S-404, are they truly wanting to pursue SOF2 or just wanting to
gain “fireline safety” knowledge. For a description of the course offered by the
PNW http://nationalfiretraining.net/nw/2007_courses/fireline_safety_officer.pdf.
ACTION ITEM: Snap shot in time, who all in NR are SOF2 and/or SOFR (qualified
and trainees). Paul will follow-up with Renee Beams regarding the status on their
course with NWCG.
Page 4 of 7
Discussion regarding the draft 2007 FSH 5109.17. The proposed manual more closely follows
the PMS 310-1. Discussion on how this will make our fire managers more responsible in
determining if students need recommended training to give more knowledge, experience, etc.
Is it a value to the student, growth vs. what training is only required.
2008 S-420 Commitment Letter
Since 1997, 167 NR folks have completed S-420. From those numbers up through 2004, only
47 are currently on Type 1 or 2 IMT or Fire Use teams in the NR. FYI, nine students failed the
S-520 this year.
Faller vs. Sawyer Definition
SAC discussed the module concept. Work into the contract arena. How to provide the
resource to the community if the FS doesn’t host fallers as AD’s. SAC group will meet again.
There is contractor interest, not sure if the contract will be ready for this season.
NRTC Training Agreement Issues, Splitting of states or agencies across GACC vs State
Lines
State of ID vs. NRTC/GBTC nominations
After a lengthy discussion the final resolution is to table this topic. Idaho IDL will go back and
rewrite the request for a more clear definition. Basically anything in writing needs to be
specifically written for Idaho IDL needs to avoid any potential loop holes.
White Paper BLM Idaho / NRTC Payment Process
Currently Idaho BLM is not a signatory to the interagency agreement with NRTC. Montana
BLM has been paying for Idaho BLM students and would like to have the payment process
corrected. After discussion, the resolution is that NRTC will start billing Idaho BLM on their
credit cards and eliminate Montana BLM from the process. Cunningham indicated that the
interagency agreement will be rewritten this Spring. At that time, Bob will work with Bruce
Martinek and Leonard Wehking to start the process of becoming a signatory to the NRTC
Interagency Agreement.
Who are our Training Representatives to other various committees?
Aviation - Rick Haffenfelt – he retired. We need someone else.
Business – Lily Huskey
Equipment – Jim Blankenship
Fire Use - Dennis Devorski
NAC – Robert LaPlant
Operations - Wally Bennet
Prevention – Tim Crosmer
SAC: Tim Murphy is looking for a representative, not feasible for Beth due to the distance. A
suggestion to ask Nancy Gibson
Page 5 of 7
Round Robin/Updates
NRTC
No significant changes. No dramatic increases in staffing or facility. Working through the FS
facility budget for new technologies, distance learning options. Cunningham is retiring in
September. Outreach is currently out. Hope to have his replacement in place by September
1, 2007 to transition while Cunningham is still around.
NIZ
Frank Waterman got the new center manager job on the Kootenai NF. Had an aviation review,
dispatch was part of that review. Biggest impact is the FS and will be taking a hard look and
seeing what we can do. Issue with training being in an IA dispatch office. Vickie Ellickson is
new to IDL in the training position and a huge asset.
EMZ
Doing well, participation with agencies are improving. Bravo to Larry Elder for keeping the
training web page up-to-date. Working together on getting folks. Paul Pallas will be taking
over this fall as Tim Crosmer will be stepping down.
SCZ
This year has been different in changing, high dominant to local government folks. Helping
host L-380 next week. Next month hosting a local all-risk S-420. June hosting a SCZ engine
academy with Central Valley Fire, one day a multi-aid deployment, IMT, etc. interface
instructor. Exercising a pre-plan of 3000 people, a lot of agencies will be involved. Low to
mid-level management. On the ground 150 FF and 60 pieces of equipment. Fastest growing
area in Montana.
CMZ
Helena and Lewis & Clark NF are looking at reorganizing the fire and aviation group. Training
will be looked at. Having a dedicated training officer would be a benefit
SMZ
Kitty is officially a Training Specialist, has a new Position Description. Currently utilizing a
detailer smoke jumper in training. Anyone is welcome to come over and observe the SMZ
sessions. Putting on Cache Demobilization Specialist training and I-SUITE.
NDZ
Dispatch Center moved to Bismarck, they added a new wing to the FWS office. Major server
issues resulting in not getting the training web page updated. Lily is working on it - at this time
no resolution. Coordinating amongst themselves as a Chair was not filled. Assisted ND
Firefighter’s Association with their 1100 student State Fire School. Includes structural and
wildland.
NWZ
Training Committee of four, gets together frequently. Not sure the status of NPS Mike Frislie,
apparently Australia was a huge impact on him. S-232/S-234 will probably be dropped due to
the lack of students. DNRC works closer with local government vs. the FS, looking at putting
on S-290, S-230/S-231 and more logistics and planning functional areas courses to utilize in a
Type 3 IMT.
Other Issues
Helicopter Manager Process (RT-372)
The Coeur d’Alene location for RT-373 had an issue with the selection as basically the
nomination process was closed early due to the room size was exceeded. Historically on
refreshers/workshop, all students are welcome. Zones should be looking at prioritizing the
nominations.
Page 6 of 7
ACTION ITEM: Cunningham will visit with Aviation regarding the process and
getting the information out accurately (training catalog/process) and verify who
will the training go through NRTC or Aviation?
FI-310 issue paper #43
Reference the #43 for more information, basically PMS 310-1 will recognize FI-210 but not FI310 as that level and the FI-410 will be turned over to the Fire Prevention WT.
CS&KT
• Hosting a Basic Wildland FF training in June and any neighboring agencies are
welcome to join in to help or as students.
• Currently dealing with contractor issues with crew members going between two different
contractors, issue of contractor saying he owns the members training.
NEXT MEETING: Fall meeting, October 24-25, 2007. For the Spring 2008 Training
Committee meeting, will tag along with the Dispatchers Workshop.
Page 7 of 7