SPRING NRCG TRAINING COMMITTEE MEETING
APRIL 22-23, 2004
Northern Rockies Training Center
Missoula, MT
Participants & Guests Attending: Bob Cunningham (NRTC), Rosie LeMire (NRTC),
Kitty Ortman (SWZ; Lolo NF), Rick Lang (EMZ; BLM-Miles City), Sally Estes (NIZ; Idaho
Panhandle NF), Frank Waterman (NIZ, Idaho Dept of Lands), Debby Atencio (NIZ;
Idaho Panhandle NF), Rita Chandler (SCZ; Gallatin NF), Neil Nelson (NWZ; Kootenai
NF), Judy Heintz (CMZ; Beaverhead-Deerlodge NF), Eric Kurtz (MT-DNRC), Jim
Clairmont (SWZ; CS&K Tribes), Tim Crosmer (MT-DNRC), Bryan Connelley (SCZ,
Belgrade Rural FD), Diane Devine (CNF), Bob Rebarchik, Sue Beron (Equipment
Comm)
THURSDAY / 22 APR 04
Introductions
Neil Nelson opened the meeting at 1000 hours, with participants and guests introducing
themselves. A sign-in sheet was circulated.
Miscellaneous “bin” items:
• Assumption is position left vacant by Jim Steele’s retirement will be filled, with
someone in place by next year.
• Contractor liaison position is closed, with between 50-60 applications received.
Waiting on the cert, which has not yet been prepared. Looking to fill ASAP.
NRTC Needs Analysis
Every year, certain ‘S’ curriculum courses are rotated; this winter will be the turn for the
logistics curriculum.
S-420 was put on in the Northern Rockies this past winter, and 7 Northern Rockies
IMT2’s have been put through S-420 in the past 2 years. Next winter, the plan is to
supply 1 team to the Pacific Northwest. Depending on need, a session could still be
held in the Northern Rockies, but a commitment has been made to send a team to the
PNW.
NWCG is in the process of revising the ‘I’ curriculum. National Incident Management
System (NIMS, not NIIMS) is to be implemented with supposedly 160 all-risk teams
spread around at locations nationally.
L380/L-381 will continue to be contracted. Anticipate getting more WO funding to help
put on sessions next year. DOI and state employees would likely have seats made
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available to them, but would need to pay full tuition. Current revision of the 5109.17
would have both listed as Level 3 (recommended, not required). After this year, the
next revision would make them Level 1 (required) courses. [Just a side-note, the
5109.17 may also go to an every other year revision.] The issue of required versus
recommended is still under consideration for inclusion in the 310-1, due to costs
involved. Another possibility is to have subsidized tuition – use FS $$ for other
agencies.
Following are the course recommendations for this next winter/spring:
Recommended Courses
I-400
S-339
3-354
S-355
S-356
S-357
S-358
S-359
S-360
Primarily recommend because local level usually does not have the
necessary expertise.
S-371
S-381
2 sessions
S-404
S-420
With PNW – 1 team
S-450
S-490
Possibly 2 sessions
S-491
S-492
S-493
MWFRB
Currently have authorization from National cadre to use this to meet
certification for fire use managers. Recommend 1 session until
certification is pulled.
RX-300
Multiple sessions
RX-310
Multiple sessions
RX-410
Smoke Modeling
IAO
LFML
Weather Station
Maintenance
S-372
Train the Trainer
FI-210
Formerly P-151
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It was decided to not conduct the following courses this next year:
Not Recommended
S-273
S-346
M-480
This is different from I-401, which is conceptual talking about
MAC. It’s a 7-hour course, designed to be taught to potential MAC
group members.
Fire Computer
Too generic. The TWT needs to define exactly what this course
Applications
encompasses.
Fire Procurement Designed for buying team members and local support. Question
arose regarding why buying team members need to go to this
every year, and if attending a buying team meeting is good for
certification.
IMS
No control over.
FPA
Replacing NFMAS. There are some web-based modules for
familiarization and/or orientation, but formal training is still a year
or two away.
If support specialist position doesn’t get filled, most of the S-courses will probably have
to be dropped. Due to RX-course load, need to get Risa Lange-Navarro some help.
NRCG zones will be responsible for getting personnel trained in IQCS this summer, if
and as needed. NRTC will schedule another session in November. On-line training is
available and local (4-hour) sessions can be developed for FMOs, etc. Individual user
training is going to be a 7-hour online module, with an implementation target date of
September.
Zone Training Schedules
Try to have zone training schedules into Rosie LeMire as soon as compiled, but no later
than 1 October. Check with neighboring zones to see if course can be shared before
submitting.
For workshops and other training, committee chairs should talk with each other and be
consistent in how the information gets out. Might be something the NRCG board could
take a quick look at and make a recommendation for clarification: Can there be a
specific format and place that workshops/other training could be listed consistently??
Guidelines for listing could be workshops or training which appeals to an interagency
audience, is related in some way to fire, and open to everyone.
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P-301 Status
According to the Prevention Team, P-301 is “dead” and will not be revived. It should be
taken off the needs analysis list. The current course is too outdated, and while avenues
for replacement are being looked at, it is unsure if anything is actually being developed
for revision. Their feelings are if anything in the prevention curriculum is put on, it
should be RAMS (but RAMS is not recognized).
One thought is to talk to the TWT at the next meeting regarding course status in the
FMCG. Tim will get a white paper to Bob Cunningham and Neil Nelson in the next
couple of weeks regarding this issue.
S-300 Status
Kitty Ortman offered to be “sole source” until she saw the numbers.
ICT3 Recertification Update
So far, 137 people have been run through the recertification process. Evaluations show
computer simulations really enhance the course. Possible outcome will likely be an
integration of the computer simulation into S-300, and it will likely be a requirement prior
to initiation of a PTB. [Side note – There is also an S-200 simulation likely be
incorporated into the course in the future.] S-300 will remain a zone course, with
Southwest Montana, Eastern Montana, and North Idaho Zones planning on putting it on
this next year.
Requirements for Water Tender Operators / Drivers
RFDs and FSAs must be FFT2 trained, per the Incident Business Management
Handbook (IBMH). This means 16 hours of firefighter training (not “qualified”) and the
light WCT. Private sector has to do the 32 hours of S-130/S-190 and the arduous WCT.
Question arose – who makes sure these people are certified and what exactly should
contracting personnel be looking for during preseason signups??
In the IBMH, there is a page for each piece of equipment that shows what that
equipment has to have, and it also has a place to list names of operators. The
contractor must give proof that all those listed have met requirements for that equipment
and/or position. Whoever certifies that equipment must sign to certify all operators do
meet requirements, and the owner of equipment also has to sign.
During the verification of certification for Type 3-7 engine personnel, documents which
will serve as “proof” for self-certification include a current redcard, a copy of the inside
cover of PTB, letters of completion/certification for all NWCG-required courses under
the 310-1. Neil Nelson will send a letter with these details to Roberta Whitlock and
Tracy Nimlos, for subsequent mailing out to their business/CO email lists. The
information will also be posted to the NRCG web site.
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A-Courses
Jim Clairmont talked to the OAS in Boise and to other personnel in the Office of Aviation
Management (?? Wing/Rossiter/Cummings??). regarding the possibility of bringing
some A-courses into this area. Will look at what courses to sponsor and when –
probably sometime later this fall (Nov/Dec timeframe). Contact Jim with any input,
thoughts, or comments regarding what classes to include. The session may end up like
a “mini-ACE”. Another possibility (and probably the best route) would be to ask the
OAS to put on an ACE super-session in the Northern Rockies. If this is not feasible,
then put on a mini-ACE. DOI aviation should make the request to the OAS; then if it
doesn’t happen, Jim can put on the mini sessions. Bob could possibly could draft a
letter to them and send out via email to get all the training coordinator’s signatures.
Private Contractors & Training
Direction from the Region regarding private contractors in agency-sponsored training:
Currently, there is no document or policy that precludes us from allowing private people
or contractors into agency-sponsored training. Issues include no funding mechanism
for non-agency, how to prioritize and fit them into the mix, and perception of competition
with the private sector.
According to Sue Beron, there used to be a policy – issues were partly due to liability
concerns and partly due to cost to government, next came prioritization. She is not sure
what happened to this policy (from the early 90s?). A starting point would be to confirm
its existence and/or see what appropriation-law type issues exist.
FRIDAY / 23 APR 04
Contractor PTBs, ‘Grandfathering’, and Engine Boss Requirements
John Specht and Mike Kopitzkie brought the issue of contractor PTBs and
grandfathering to the group, based on discussion surrounding the position paper
developed by the NRCG. Three years ago, a decision was made nationally regarding
being engine boss qualified in order to go out with an engine. There was a grace period
of 2 years for contractors to come into compliance with this policy.
Discussions developed regarding the self-certification process, as some contractors had
been coming in with ENGB PTBs, but not ones for the preceding FFT1 or FFT2
qualifications. The decision was made that if contractors could prove they had done
these jobs (FFT1/FFT2) at an acceptable level (ie, had all training records for
appropriate classes, a redcard for the position if appropriate, etc etc) AND had a
complete PTB for ENGB, they would be accepted as being in compliance. NRCG will
hold with that and will amend their policy letter to say this is a one-time deal which
would end June 1, 2004. After that date, contractors must show all prerequisites with
their package for ENGB certification. In a nutshell – before 1 June, they will need to
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have all classes, but do not need the FFT1 PTB. If not certified by June 1st, they must
meet all prerequisites including the PTBs.
NRTC agrees with this principle. NRCG will “massage” their memo to remove any
language mentioning “grandfathering” and will have a letter to send through Neil
Nelson/Bob Cunningham to Tracy Nimlos. The letter will incorporate specifically what
documentation is sufficient to indicate qualification.
Brief discussion regarding distinction between local government versus contractor –
local government agencies have areas of jurisdiction and jurisdictional authority;
contractors do not have any areas of jurisdiction.
John Specht mentioned another NRCG letter on AD hiring policy. They, as a group,
support AD’s and urge agencies to support and hire AD’s.
He also mentioned the NRCG board will be sending a letter to the National MAC Group,
recommending 310-1 be the sole qualifications document (including for Forest Service
personnel).
MOU Audit Program
We should be conducting audits, documenting, and submitting audit reports to Tracy.
The rule is we will audit at least 1 training session per MOU training provider. Should
have a mailing list set up that encompasses all the training providers in an area.
Training providers can go anywhere within the NRCG area to provide training, and they
can also have agreements with other Regions.
NWCG TWT Update
Tasked with development of NWCG training materials. Primary discussion item during
the next TWT meeting will be IQCS and issues.
IQCS Update
The big issue is that IQCS is not “user friendly” when it comes to state/contractor
instructors and students. Business management practices during the nomination
process will need to incorporate state/local government records. One issue is the use
of SSNs. May be major changes in the way training, coordination, and delivery
components are being worked on and may need to have a training specific to these
components. There is a bridge/filter being worked on which would be able to
incorporate state/local government into the database. Will probably have to revisit this
issue in August/September.
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Big Iron Workshop
Over the past several years, it has been recognized there is a lack of information
regarding utilization of mechanized equipment on the fireline. “Big Iron” was originally a
CD which, when reviewed by SMEs, was deemed exactly what was needed. The TWT
wants the Northern Rockies to continue to update and support this document.
The workshop last year was very successful – 85 in class, 110 in field. Jim Steele was
deeply involved with this workshop, but it’s been left hanging since his retirement.
Projects like these take both a lot of time and $$, and Bob Cunningham feels this
project needs to have a sponsor other than the NRTC (which will continue to maintain
and support). NRTC needs direction on level of involvement in the future. Also need to
think about projects that might come along in the future which are like this…..the size,
success, and commitment of $$ took all agencies by surprise.
San Dimas and MTDC are in the process of developing a video/DVD/CD of equipment
possibilities and utilization. As a side note, the revised S-336 course will have a section
on specialized mechanical equipment. There are also changes in S-232, and changes
being considered for S-339.
Suggestion was made that this go into the continuing education route. They would have
the necessary mechanism to collect fees to help fund.
NRCG Committee Reports
Equipment (Mike?)
Prevention (Tim): May 9-15 is Wildland Fire Awareness Week; August is Smokey’s 60th
Birthday; April 25-29, 2005 in Bozeman (??)
Business (Sue): The 3 inspection workshops (Lewiston, Billings, Libby) had 200
attendees. They decided a workbook is needed. Committee will be coming up with a
“real” training for this, so not only can they attend the inspection workshop, but can take
tools home. Lots of things to look at next winter.
Operations (Chris): From Billings; will be new liaison, to replace Eric Kurtz. Team
configuration is the biggest issue – decided 27-33 positions; at least 6 IMT2s up to 33,
of which 6 are trainees. If a position is an AD, must have an agency trainee assigned.
ID teams have 24 + 5 trainees (not all will go every time); the last 4, up from 20, also
may not go every time
Miscellaneous
• AD’s and training: Sally Estes drafted a policy for the IPF, basing it upon 2
questions – can we track their training and do we have a good history of their
training/redcard information? Policy is the IPF will track those AD personnel who
are sent out consistently and can comply with the above questions. Don’t have
to worry about defensive driving if not driving a rig and won’t go on the fireline.
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NRTC Chair: Bob will dig up some information on duties and responsibilities.
MOU in NWZ: A question was asked about the “additional training which
supports development of knowledge and skills”. A training provider with an MOU
in the NWZ is requiring trainers to complete the additional training requirements
prior to having PTBs certified.
Date for Fall Meeting: October 27-28, 2004
Spring Meeting: This is the last one for such a huge meeting. Recommended at
the dispatcher’s meeting that Northern Rockies Training Committee meet with
the dispatch workshop. Spring meeting dates would be 21-22 March 2005, while
the Dispatcher’s Workshop would be 22-25 March 2005.
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