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^ D O C U M E N T IS THE PROPERTY OF HIS ERITANHIC MAJESTY 'S GOVERNKEMT).
E T.
C A B I N E T 35(22).
CONCLUSIONS of a Meeting of the Cabinet held in
Hr. Chamberlain's Room, House of Commons, S.W. on Friday,
June 16th., 1922 at 11.30A.M.
P R E S E N T :-
THE PRIME MINISTER (IN THE CHAIR).
Right Hen, A. Chamberlain The Right Hon. The Earl of Balfour,
Lord Privy Seal. K.G., O.M., Lord President of the
Council. ight Hon. Sir Robert H o m e , The Right Hon. E. Shortt, K.C., M.P.,
, K.C., M.
P., Chancellor of Secretary of State for Home Affairs.
Ixchequer. ght Hon. W*S.'Churchill, HUP., The Right Hon. The Viscount Peel, ittary of State for the G.B.E., Secretary of State for India, tales
?dght Hon. Lord Lee of Fareham, The Right Hon. B. Baldwin, M. P., h, K.C.B., First Lord of the President of the Board of Trade, ralty. ight Hon. Sir A. Mond, Bart., The Right Hon. H.A.L. Pishes1 , M.P.,
Minister of Health. President of the Board of Education. ight Hon. Sir A. Griffith- The Right Hon. T.J. Macnamara,
"en, M. P., Minister of M.
P., Minister of Labour, lture and Fisheries.
Ight ilon. R. Munro, K.C., M.P., The Right Hon. The Earl of Crawford fary for Scotland. and Balcarres, K.T., First
Commissioner of Works.
THE FOLLOWING WERE ALSO PRESENT : -
J l .
Sir M.P.A. Hankey, G.C.B , Seer?
Woas. Jones Principal Assistant Sec: iS, lioworth Assistant Sec.

(1) The Lord Privy Seal brought before the Cabinet a
Petition laid before him by certain Members of Parliament dealing with the refusal of the Speaker to allow questions to be asked and. the Adjournment moved on matters relating to the lives and property of "British subjects in Ireland, and asking for the matter to be dealt with by a new Stand­ ing Order or otherwise (Paper C.P.-5982).
m h e Lord Privy
Seal read the draft of a reasoned reply to the Petitioners, explaining the inability of the Government to interfere in the Speaker's ruling in the manner suggested.
The view was expressed that some concession ought to be made in the matter to Members of Parliament, many of v/hom were being heavily pressed on the subject by people in Ireland who were suffering under the present State of disorder. In support of this view it was pointed out that the British Government still held troops in Dublin,' while in the Northern'area the British Government, by paying part of the cost of the police forces, had definite respons­ ibilities there. Further, it was urged that Parliamentary discussion and Questions had a salutary effect both in
SJorth and South Ireland. The Government in Dublin, it was pointed out, was still a provisional one and without pro­ cedsnt in our history, and it was suggested that it would bfdsefu .1
to write to the Speaker and draw attention to the fact that Southern Ireland had not yet reached the full status of a Self-governing Dominion.
It was explained that where Crown servants in
British pay were employed in the Southern area, the Speaker would allow Questions in relation to them, but where the matter was one of the general maintenance of law and order the Speaker contended that that duty had been transferred to the Provisional Government, and he had to bear in mind

the position of the British Dominions generally in such matters. Tho Cabinet were reminded of the attempt, for example, to raise certain recent South African Labour troubles. In regard to Northern Ireland, the Speaker had modified his ruling ttten his attention had been drawn to the fact that we were paying for police, for whom a Vote had been presented to the "ouse. In the South we were under no such pecuniary burden or responsibility.
After some discussion as to the extent to which similar questions and discussions were permissible in the case of the Self-governing Dominions and foreign countries, the Cabinet agreed —
That the lord Privy Seal should reply to the Members of Parliament who had sub­ scribed to the Petition, on the lines of the draft letter read by him to the
Cabinet, giving the reasons why the Gov­ ernment could not intervene in the matter; but he was asked, in addition, to call attention to the number of occasions on which Irish questions had b^en freely ventilated in Parliament, and to state that there was no desire to curtail these opportunities.
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fa) With reference to Cabinet SS (32), the Cabinet had before there a draft, circulated on the previous day and published in the morning newspapers, of the Constitution of the Irish Pree State (Paper G.P.-40S4).
The Secretary of State for the Colonies gave his colleagues a full account of the rapid development of events since the Cabinet had last considered the question.
The Irish representatives had conceded the six points which the Cabinet had regarded as essential. He then summarised the changes which had been introduced in the draft Consti­ button, and called. pax*ticular attention to those which had resulted from the Conferences with the Southern Unionists,
^e also stated that the draft had been approved by the Lord
Chancellor and hj the Solicitor-General (in the absence of the Attorney-General).
After some discussion the Cabinet agreed—
(a) To approve'the Draft Constitution:
(b) To place on record their congratulations and. thanks to the Ministers who had been engaged in these negotiations, and more particularly the Secretary of State for the Colonies:
(
(c) ^o request the Secretary to convey the thanks of the Cabinet to the Lord Chief
Justice for his assistance:
(d) To request the Secretary of State for the
Colonies to express the Cabinet's apprecia­ tion of the services rendered by Sir
Frederick Liddell, Sir Francis Greer and the other officials who had been concerned in the negotiations.

$GUARDING- (??) With reference to Gabinet 34 (32), Conclusion 2,
INDUSTRIES the Cabinet agreed —
That a Cabinet Committee, composed as follows:-
The President of the Board of Trade .
(in the Chair),
The Minister of Health,
The Minister of Rdueati on,
The Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries,
The First Commissioner of Works,
The Paymaster-General,
The Parliamentary Secretary to the
Board of Trade,
Fir T. St. Q,. Hill (Secretary) ­ should meet to investigate the working of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, and, in addition, to consider the presentation to the public of the case in favour of the
-powers conferred hy this Act, not merely as regards tMsfcrvalue at present and in the immediate future, but also in the more dis­ tant future.

$ALT? (4) With reference to Cabinet 11 (92), Conclusions 1 and
— 2, the Cabinet had before them Memoranda by the First Lord posed Wages
' jtiona. of the Admiralty (Paper G .P.-3980), the Minister of Labour
(Paper C.P.-3994) aftd the Chancellor of the Exchequer (Paper
C.P.-3999) o
These Memoranda dealt with the difficult situation which, had arisen in the Naval Dockyards and similar estab­ lishments owing to the fact that wages had been reduced by agreement in the shipbuilding industry but not in the engin­ eering industry. The special difficulty at present arose from the fact that there has never been, in Royal Dockyards and Admiralty establishments, any differentiation as between workmen according to the industries to which they might be deemed to belong, and it was important to maintain the equitable assessment of wages afptaed according to the relative values of the workpeople in the same establish­ ments. If the Admiralty followed the outside arrangements in regard to shipbuilders and reduced wages by 16s.6d., there would be a saving of £13,000 per week. If they applied the reduction to the shipbuilders and engineers, by the Admiralty the reduction would be £44,000 a week. It was proposed/to put forward an interim all-round reduction of 12s .6d. per week, which would secure a saving of £33,750 per week.
This, f f ' was believed, would cause less trouble and secure greater economy than differentiation, and the men were thought to prefer equal reductions all over to sectional reductions.
Against this proposal it was urged (l) that the proposed reduction was 4/- a week less than that arranged with the shipbuilders, and ( 8 ) that to insist on a reduc­ tion of 12s.6&. per week for the'engineers, in advance of the conclusion of any such arrangement outside by the
A.E.U., woxtld be certain to create widespread criticism

of the Government, who would be denounced as being in league with the employers in bringing about a fall in wages. It was therefore suggested that the best way out 'of the diffi­ culty was to lay the position frankly before the Joint
Industrial Council and attempt to secure an amicable settlement as rapidly as possible in the interests of economy.
The Cabinet agreed —
(a) That the Admiralty should at once open negotiations with the Joint Industrial
Council: f b ) T^hat the Minister of Labour should be invited to attend and take part in the ne^otiati one:
Co) That the First Lord of the Admiralty and the Minister of Labour should keep in the closest possible touch with the Chancellor of the Exchequer throughout the negotiations.
- 6 ­

I POPLAR (5) The Cabinet had under consideration a Memorandum
"[$TRY * by the Minister of Health (Paper G.P.-3970) covering the
Report of the Enquiry recently held into the administration
- of the Poplar Borough Council. The Cabinet were informed that the letter indicated in Paper 0.P.-S970 had been sent by the Ministry of Health to the Borough Council and that it was not improbable that certain difficult and troublesome questions might come up for decision.
The Cabinet agreed — m hat the Minister of Health should have discretion to deal with the Poplar case.
- 7 ­

/ t J .
( 6 ) * T h e C a b i n e t h a d un&cs? c o n s i d e r a t i o n a rm?a&rmi&wa bf t h e C f e a n e e l t a * o f t h e F x c h e c p e r (£5*1**4020) r e l a t i v e t o t h e c p e s t i c s r s Of t h e p o l i o s t o b e a d o p t e d I n d e a l i n g w i f e t h e r o q u a e t o f t h e
S t a t e s - S o v e i f ^ s o n t t h a t G r e a t B r i t a i n s h o u l d p u t f o r w a r c l tarn p r o p o s a l s f o r f u n d i n g t h e d e b t b y t h e
B r i t i s h $ o v e r m e a t t o t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s
The C a b i n e t w e r e r e m i n d e d t h a t G r e a t B r i t a i n w a s u n d e r a d e f i n i t e o b l i g a t i o n t o m&m^t t h e e x i s t i n g debt* i i i t o l o n g t e r m b o n d s w i f r e q a i r o d b y t h e S e c r e t a r y o f t h e T r e a s i a * y o f t h e B h i t e d S t a t e s o f A n e r i o a % T h e felted S t a t e s O d v e x u a e n t h a d a p p o i n t e d a T o r l d w a r F o r e i g n D e b t C o i s a i s s i o t i a n d t h i s C e K s a i s a i e n h a d o n t h e 1 8 t h A p r i l 1922 a d o p t e d t h e £ O l l e w i f s g r e s o l u t i o n s s -
R e s o l v e d t h a t t h e S e c r e t a r y o f S t a t e h e s * a q u e e t e d t o i n f o r m e a c h o f t h e CJevoTOssnts u h o s e o b l i g a t i o n s a r i s i n g o u t of t h e W o r l d
Was* a r e h e l d b y t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s , i n c l u d i n g o b l i g a t i o n s h e l d b y t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s G r a i n
C o r p o r a t i o n , t h e War D e p a r t m e n t , t h e Navy
D e p a r t m e n t o r t h e A m e r i c a n B e l i e f A d m i n i s t r a ­ t i o n , o f t h e o r g a n i s a t i o n o f t h e " T o r I d War
F o r e i g n D e b t O c t a t n i s e i a a , p u r s u a n t t o A c t o f
C o n g r e s s a p p r o v e d ' t h e 9 t h F e b r u a r y 1 9 2 3 , a n d t h a t t h e C o s s a i s e i o n d e s i r e s t o r e c e i v e a n y p r o p o s a l s o r r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s w h i c h the s a i d
GOVERNI -teni may mMt t o m a k e f o r t h e s e t t l e m e n t o r r e f u n d i n g o f i t s o b l i g a t i o n s u n d e r the p r o v i s i o n s o f t h e & e t * "
I t w a s t h e - u n i v e r s a l o p i n i o n o f t h o s e b e s t q u a l i f i e d t o teow tfoa't t r & a t e v o r a t t i t u d e t h e
U n i t e d S t a t e s G o v e r n m e n t m i g h t a d o p t t o w a r d s F r a n c e ,
I t a l y , B e l g i u m a n d i t s o t h e r E u r o p e a n d e b t o r s , i t w o u l d g r a n t n o r e l a x a t i o n t o S r e a t B r i t a i n i n t h e m a t t e s
4
o f r e p a y m e n t of d e b t . T h e r e w a s n o h o p e o f a n y m o d i f i c a t i o n o f t h i s a t t i t u d e i n t h e n e a r f u t u r e a n d fc&e a $ p u b l i c o p i n i o n i n A m e r i c a h a d t e n d e d r e c e n t l y -fee h a r d e n on t h e s u b j e c t . T h e
D e b t OoBBaission h a d o n l y b e e n g i v e n v e r y l i m i t e d p o w e r s
9
a n d i t s p r i n c i p a l d u t y w o u l d bo t o s e t t l e

2
* ri
I I
Vm ppoblm.
off e^litgniging t h e e x i s t i n g payment ohlti^tlmB toy w M e h t h e B r i n i s h $ e b i fce r e p r e s e n t e d i n t o b o n d s o r e t h e r o b l i g a t i o n s m a t u r i n g on o r bafor*e XSth J u a e ft
w a s r e p r e s e n t e d t o
this
C a b i n e t t h a t
was n o t h i n g t o ho g a i n e d by d e l a y i n g t h e o p e n i n g ex? n e g o t i a t i o n s wltta t h e L i l t e d S t a t e s Crcreernsaent m p r o p o s e d i n t h e m&sa^ndam* On t h e o t h e r haxii a n y d e l a y w o u l d bo l i f e e l y t o e s t a t e f r e s h d i f ? l c u l t l e s *
G r e a t B r i t g & n w a s s p l a i n l y i n t e r e s t e d i n r e a c h i n g a s e t t l e m e n t i s E u r o p e , end t h i s s e t t l e m e n t c o u l d n o t b e e f f e c t e d u n t i l t h e R e p a r a t i o n q u e s t i o n h a d b e e n s e t t l e d . Fi?anee, h o w e v e r s
, would n o t s e t t l e tfee'
K e p a r a t i c n q u e s t i o n u n t i l s h e knew d e f i n i t e l y w h a t t h e p o s i t i o n would bo a s t o fcer d e b t t o Gtfsat B r i t a i n end tfce U n i t e d B t a t e s . f f e e r e was n o ohar.ee o f t h e
U n i t e d S t a t e s a s s i s t i n g i s %im s e t t l e m e n t o f t h e
F u r o p e a n p r o b l e m v n t l l t h e y had made d e f i n i t e a r r a n g e " raents w i t h Qjpe&t B r i t a i n w h i c h t h e y r i g h t l y r e g a r d e d a s t & e l r o n l y s o l v e n t d e b t o r . I n t h e s e c i r c u m s t a n c e s
It w a s a r g u e d t h a t a n y d e l a y i n d e a l i n g ' w i t h tbe c o n s t r u c t i o n ^
Any p r o p o s a l i n v o l v i n g t h e p o l i c y o f r e q u i r i n g
F r a n c e * I t a l y a n d Clreat B r i t a i n ' s o t h e r F u r o p e o n d e b t o r s t o f u n d t h e i r d e b t s would s i m p l y saean i n c r e a -
Boti r e l u c t a n c e on t h e p a r t o f F r a n c e t o make a n y
R e p a r a t i o n c o n c e s s i o n s t o Gerisany w i t h t h e r e s u l t t h a t t h e l a t t e r c o u n t r y would g o b a n k r u p t and Biaropean r e v i v a l w o u l d b e i n d e f i n i t e l y p o s t p o n e d * I t i s u s t f h o w e v e r , b e r e a l i s e d t h a t i f t h e B r i t i s h d e b t t e w o u l d be' meat d i f f i c u l t g
I f n e t i m p o s s i b l e
9
t o p r e v e n t t h e f u n d e d d e b t b e i n g p l a c e d on t h e m a r k e t and o n c e t h i s was done G r e a t B r i t a i n w o u l d m o s t c e r t a i n l y b e r e q u i r e d t o p a y u p t h e w h o l e o f t h e d e b t . '
-9­

In this connection, however, it was urged that while, no doubt, the British Government had agreed to the funding of the debt and to the payment to the United States G-overn­ ment or its assigns, it was still open to the British Gov­ ernment to negotiate with a view to preventing, if possible, the funded debt being placed on the market. On the general question it was urged that, however unconscionable we thought the attitude of the United States Government to be, yet it -tfould be incompatible with our national horarar and credit to refuse to pay, and that it was inconceivable that Great Britain would ever place herself in the humiliat-
Ing position of being in fact a defaulter to America.
On the other hand, it was urged that Great Britain should take up the position that in no circumstances ought she to be given a less favourable treatment than that accorded by the United States Government to her other European debtors.
Tn particular, it was most desirable that in this matter
Europe should present to America a united front, and that the latter should not be allowed to settle with her debtors individually. Even if the United States would not relax her demands upon Great Britain, she might possibly be persuaded, as the result of a general settlement, to give
/ move lenient treatment to her other debtors. Prom this
/ point-of view it would be most unfortunate if negotiations wfth the French Delegation were opened in Washington before the arrival of the British Delegates.
The suggestion was then made that there should be drafted, with a view to publication, a despatch from Great
Britain to France, Italy, Belgium and the other European debtors of Great Britain, setting out. the nature of the

demand made by the United States, the seriousness of the ct t ,-i )f B r i t s i 1
J
taxation compared with that of other Fowers necessity, in these circumstances, of Great Britain exaet­ ing from her European debtors repayment on the lines of the American demand. The despatch, which would require to be very carefully worded, would indicate the British view that the policy of the United States Government in the matter was a wrong policy, and that, further, it was un­ reasonabl^ and inequitable for the United States to attewpt to treat separately with her various European debtors.
The despatch would also emphasise the fact that,, much as
Great Britain regretted having to demand payment -from her
Allies, no other course was open to her, having regard to the action of her American creditor. A despatch should also be drafted for transmission to the United States Gov­ ernment, which, while fully admitting Great Britain's liability and acknowledging her intention to fulfil the obligations Into which she had entered, should at the same time state that Great Britain would not be in a position to make definite proposals regarding the furd ing of the debt until she had completed certain conversations which she was conducting with her Allies on the kindred subject of the
Allied debt to Great Britain.
In support of the policy indicated above, the Cabinet were reminded that public opinion in Great Britain would severely criticise any proposals which wotild have the effect of compelling the British taxpayer to satisfy the
American debt while at the same time obtaining very little, if any, satisfaction out of the European debtors. Taxation in Great Britain was about twice "as heavy as in France, and unemployment, which, was most severe here, xvas practic­ ally absent in our debtor countries. It was most mortifying for dreat Britain to have to forego her European debts

a n d a t t h e s a m e t i m e t o b e " l e c t u r e d " b y M . P o i n c a r a , who h a d h a d t h e t e m e r i t y t o s u g g e s t t h a t o u r u n e m p l o y m e n t p r o b l e m w a s m a i n l y a t t r i b u t a b l e t o a m i s t a k e n m o n e t a r y p o l i c y and t o t h e w a y i n w h i c h we h a d h a n d l e d t h e q u e s t i o n o f t h e e x p o r t o f r a w m a t e r i a l s , ,
A f t e r some f u r t h e r d i s c u s s i o n , i n t h e c o u r s e o f w h i c h t h e v i e w w a s e x p r e s s e d t h a t p u b l i c o p i n i o n i n t h e U n i t e d
S t a t e s o f A m e r i c a h a d h a d l i t t l e o r no o p p o r t u n i t y o f l e a r n i n g t h e s t r e n g t h o f t h e B r i t i s h c a s e and t h a t i t w a s m o s t i m p o r t a n t t h a t t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s s h o u l d r e a l i s e t h a t b y i n s i s t i n g o n t h e p a y m e n t o f d e b t s h e w o u l d b e m a k i n g h e r s e l f i n e f f e c t t h e t a x - g a t h e r e r and r e n t - c o l l e c t o r o f t h e c i v i l i s e d w o r l d , t h e C a b i n e t a g r e e d —
( a ) To r e q u e s t t h e A c t i n g S e c r e t a r y o f S t a t e f o r
F o r e i g n A f f a i r s t o a r r a n g e f o r t h e c i r c u l a t i o n t o t h e C a b i n e t o f a d r a f t d e s p a t c h , t o b e a d ­ d r e s s e d t o t h e G o v e r n m e n t s of F r a n c e , I t a l y ,
B e l g i u m a n d o t h e r B r i t i s h - d e b t o r c o u n t r i e s , r e f e r r i n g to t h e d e m a n d made u p o n G r e a t B r i t a i n by t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s G o v e r n m e n t , r e c o g n i s i n g t h e o b l i g a t i o n of t h e B r i t i s h G o v e r n m e n t i n t h e m a t t e r , a n d s t a t i n g i n f u l l t h e r e a s o n s w h i c h made i t n e c e s s a r y f o r G r e a t B r i t a i n t o t a k e s i m i l a r m e a s u r e s a g a i n s t h e r E u r o p e a n d e b t o r s .
The d r a f t d e s p a t c h s h o u l d f u l l y s e t f o r t h t h e
B r i t i s h p o s i t i o n i n t h i s m a t t e r , a n d i n p a r t i ­ c u l a r s h o u l d e m p h a s i z e t h e n e c e s s i t y f o r s i m i ­ l a r t r e a t m e n t b e i n g a c c o r d e d b y t h e U n i t e d
S t a t e s t o a l l h e r E u r o p e a n d e b t o r s :
Acting S e c r ^ - 1 ign A f f a i r s
Tnati a a i a n a r a r a i u u e s p a & u j i BUUUJ.U UB px-apsaxtsu a n d c i r c u l a t e d t o t h e C a b i n e t , a d d r e s s e d t o t h e
U n i t e d S t a t e s G o v e r n m e n t , a c k n o w l e d g i n g G r e a t
B r i t a i n ' s o b l i g a t i o n s a n d i n f o r m i n g t h a t Gov­ e r n m e n t t h a t G r e a t B r i t a i n w a s n o t i n a p o s i t i o n t o m a k e p r o p o s a l s f o r t h e f u n d i n g o f h e r d e b t u n t i l c e r t a i n c o n v e r s a t i o n s w i t h h e r A l l i e s on t h e k i n d r e d q u e s t i o n o f h e r E u r o p e a n d e b t s h a d b e e n c o m p l e t e d :
(?) That t h e d r a f t d e s p a t c h e s s h o u l d b e c o n s i d e r e d b y t h e C a b i n e t o n a s u b s e q u e n t o c c a s i o n , a n d t h a t , i f o o s s l b l e , no r e f e r e n c e s h o u l d b e made t o t h e q u e s t i o n o f I n t e r - A l l i e d i n d e b t e d n e s s i n a n y d i s c u s s i o n s t a k i n g p l a c e d u r i n g t h e f o r t h ­ c o m i n g v i s i t o f M. P o i n c a r e ' t o L o n d o n .
The A c t i n g S e c r e t a r y o f S t a t e f o r F o r e i g n A f f a i r s w a r n e d t h e C a b i n e t t h a t , o w i n g t o g r e a t p r e s s u r e o f b u s i n e s s d u r i n g t h e f o r t h c o m i n g w e e k , h e w o u l d n o t b e a b l e t o c i r c u l a t e t h e d r a f t s f o r some l i t t l e t i m e .

' 9 9 1
JL
(7) The Cabinet were informed, in connection with the recent meeting of Bankers in Paris, that Mr Pierpont Morgan to Germany had expressed the view that an International Loan/would be an entire failure in America unless the American investor could be completely satisfied that the Entente was securely established, that the interest of the debt would take pre­ cedence of any reparation payments, and — this b^ing the most important consideration -- that the obligations of
Germany were finally and definitely fixed. Mr Morgan fully realised that the difficulty of getting any repara­ tion settlement was due to the fact that the French could not make up their minds whether they wanted a strong Genany which could pay reparations, or a weak Germany which was bankrupt.
The Cabinet took note of this communication.
/

(8) The Cabinet took note of the following Conclrssio
0 ?
Committee of ^ome Affairs Ho. 113, held on May
1922, at 5-30 p.m.:­
(1) Trade Boards.
( s ) Government of Northern Ireland
(loan Government Guarantee) Bill.
(2) Telegraph (Money) Bill, 1922.
(Appendix.)
Whitehall Gardens, S.W.1,
June 16, 1922.

c
Printed for the Cabinet. June 1922.
SECRET.
H.A.C. 113th Conclusions.
C A B I N E T .
C O M M I T T E E O F H O M E A F F A I E S . 113.
Conclusions of a Meeting of the above Committee held in the Ministers^ Conference
Room, House of Commons, S.W., on Monday, May 29, .1922, at 5'30 p.m.
P r e s e n t :
The R i g h t Hon. H. A. L . FISHER, M.P., President of the Board of Education
(in the Chair).
The R i g h t Hon. E. SHORTT, K . C . , M.P., The R i g h t Hon. S. BALDWIN, M.P.,
Secretary of S t a t e for H o m e Affairs. President of t h e Board of Trade.
The R i g h t Hon. Sir A . MOND, Bart., M.P.,
Minister of Health.
The Right Hon. Sir ARTHUR GRIEEITH-
BOSCAWEN, M.P., Minister of A g r i c u l t u r e and Fisheries.
The R i g h t Hon. T. J . MACNAMARA, M.P.,
Minister of Labour.
The R i g h t Hon.
R.
MUNRO, K.C., M.P.,
S e c r e t a r y for Scotland.
The R i g h t Hon. Sir E . POLLOCK, K . B . E . , Sir LESLIE SCOTT, K.C., M.P., Solicitor-
K.C., M.P.," A t t o r n e y - G e n e r a l .
General.
The R i g h t Hon. F. G. KELLAWAY, M.P., M r . E. HILTON YOUNG, D.S.O., M.P.,
Postmaster-General. Financial S e c r e t a r y t o the Treasury.
The following were also present
The R i g h t Hon. W . S. CHURCHILL, M . P . , Mr. H. J . WILSON, C.B., C.B.E., Secretary,
Secretary of S t a t e for t h e Colonies. Ministry of Labour. (For Conclusion 1.)
(For Conclusion 1.)
Labour Adviser, Ministry of Labour.
(For Conclusion 1.)
Mr. R. R. SCOTT, C.B., C.S.I., Controller of Establishments, Treasury. (For
Conclusion 1.)
Mr. H. WOLFE, C.B.E., M i n i s t r y of Labour. (For Conclusion 1.)
Mr. R. B. HOWORTK.
Acting Secretary to the Committee.
Commander H. R. MOORE, D.S.O., R.N., Assistant Secretary, C.I.D.
1;S449'] B

2
Trade Boards. 1.
W i t h reference to Cabinet 2 6 ( 2 2 ) , Conclusion 3, t h e Home
Affairs Committee had under consideration a Memorandum b y the
Minister of Labour ( C P .
3 9 9 0 ) covering the draft of a Trade
Boards Bill.
The Chairman reminded t h e Committee of the circumstances under which the Bill had been prepared, and pointed out t h a t the main issue before the Committee related to the question of grade rates dealt with on pp.
5 - 8 inclusive of t h e Minister of Labours
Memorandum.
The Minister of Labour reminded the Committee t h a t the Bill w a s one which would arouse acute political controversy, and it was inevitable t h a t its introduction would revive considerable criticism, both inside and outside Parliament, of the whole Trade Board policy of the Government. The original A.ct passed in 1 9 0 9 , while in terms applicable to four sweated trades, had in fact empowered the
Minister to e x t e n d t h e Trade Boards system to other trades. The
1 9 1 8 A c t had given t h e Minister much more extensive powers, and under t h a t A c t the Trade Boai 'd procedure had been applied to trades the labour in which could not be said to need t h e protection of the S t a t e in the same w a y as labour in t h e sweated trades undoubtedly needed t h a t protection. I n particular, the Trade
Board system had been applied to the distributive trades, and very g r e a t difficulties had a t once arisen. The agitation against the whole Trade Board policy had g r o w n in volume, and at one time it looked as though t h e whole policy would have to be abandoned.
A s this would have meant v e r y unfortunate consequences, he had arranged for a strong Committee under Lord Cave to enquire into the whole Trade Board system. That Committee had now issued a unanimous report, and t h e provisions of the present Bill were, in the main, directed to carrying out the Cave Committee's recommendations. W i t h regard t o t h e question of grade rates, it was true that t h e Trade Boards had, under the guise of fixing minimum rates, almost succeeded in fixing standard rates in many cases. The proposals of t h e Cave Committee, if adopted, would meet this difficulty, and in future t h e Trade Boards woiild only be able to fix minimum rates, while rates in excess of the minimum could only be fixed as a result of the agreement by a 75 per cent, majority of each of the t w o sides of the Board. W i t h regard to t h e expense, the cost of the existing system was about 120,000Z.
per annum.
A d o p t i n g the C a v e Committee's proposals for district Boards, and assuming t h a t there would be no reduction of the present number of
Trade Beards, t h e cost might rise t o 2 4 0 , 0 0 0 L in the near future, and ultimately to a maximum of 5O0,OO0L per annum. It seemed out of the question to ask employers to bear this e x t r a cost, and the
Trade Unions would certainly not agree to pay for t h e whole cost of the Trade Boards. There seemed no alternative but for the S t a t e to u n d e r t a k e the financial responsibility, e v e r y possible effort being made to restrict expenditure to a minimum.
The Chairman enquired w h e t h e r it w a s r e a l l y necessary to introduce a Bill of the character indicated during t h e present session.
I t seemed to him t h a t a n y measure on this subject would be open to v e r y great criticism and misrepresentation by representatives of labour and of the employers. The Government, by introducing such a Bill, would incur much gratuitous unpopularity. Unless very strong reasons were adduced, he felt doubtful about proceeding with such a Bill at the present time.
The Minister of Lab'n,r in reply, pointed out that unless fresh legislation was obtained, it w c u l d be most difficult, if not impossible, t o continue the administration of the Trade Boards system: Under t h e existing law he would be obliged to proceed w i t h cases which h a d been suspended pending t h e C a v e Committee
: s Report and it w a s v e r y difficult to see how a n y satisfactory solution of these

outstanding- cases could be reached in t h e absence of legislation such as w a s now proposed.
Mr. Wolfe informed the Committee t h a t , in his view, t h e difficulties to which tlie Chairman had referred would certainly arise if nothing was done. On t h e other hand, he doubted w h e t h e r there would he v e r y serious objections to the hroad acceptance of t h e recommendations of the Cave Committee. A t present, t h e administration of the Trade Board system was most difficult; for example, t h e case of the Grocery Trade Board had been hung up for eighteen months, and if no fresh legislation was obtained, it would either be necessary for the Minister of Labour to confirm a national rate for this trade, which t h e Cave Committee h a d depre­ cated, or endeavour t o divide the Board into District Boards which would be most difficult. Mr. W o l f e also reminded the Committee of the delays in bringing into force new and lower rates, and of t h e need for setting up district committees so as t o enable differential rates to be paid in different parts of t h e country.
A t this point the Secretary of S t a t e for the Colonies entered the room and the Chairman briefly informed him of the n a t u r e of t h e previous discussion.
The Secretary of Stale for the Colonies said that, in his opinion, t h e r e w a s much to be said for the original Trade Boards A c t of 1 9 0 9 , and for t h e view t h a t if trades like match making and chain making could only be carried on in this c o u n t r y by means of sweated labour, it w a s b e t t e r t h a t such trades should not be carried on at all. The
A c t of 1909 had, however, been v a s t l y extended a n d t h e Trade
Boards system was now being applied, to t h e . s t a p l e trades of the country, of which the Dundee j u t e trade was one. W h i l e t h e r e was little doubt t h a t this particular industrv had been built up on cheap worn an's labour, it was undoubtedly a most important industry, and the v i e w taken in Dundee was t h a t its present distressed condition was largely attributable to the action of the Trade Board in fixing wages in excess of those which t h e industry could bear. No doubt the e x t r e m e Labour P a r t y would object t o a n y modification of the existing law, but it was, in Mr. Churchill's view, essential t h a t v e r y drastic changes should be brought about. In effect, under em ploy­
' ment was e v e r y bit as objectionable as sweated labour. The
G o v e r n m e n t would h a v e to decide whether or not a particular trade was to be allowed to die, and if it decided t h a t the t r a d e should live, it had no right to place such limitations and restrictions upon it as would prevent its being conducted on proper economic lines.
The Solicitor-General endorsed t h e views of the Secretary of
S t a t e for the Colonies, and said that public opinion in Liverpool was hostile to the extension of the Trade Boards system. He instanced in particular the cases of t h e grocery and fruit trades.
The Minister of Agriculture reminded t h e Committee t h a t t h e v i e w w a s v e r y widely held t h a t t h e Trade Boards system w a s responsible for much of t h e present unemployment.
The Minister of Health pointed out t h a t in the events which had happened, highly organised trades, such as mining and engineering trades, were subject t o great industrial disputes in order to settle rates of wages, whereas t h e w h o l l y unorganised trades were protected b y a State-fixed wage, often much in excess of t h e wage payable to comparable employees in the organised trades. There was a serious danger t h a t labour in the latter trades would insist on the S t a t e fixing t h e rates of wages.
Mr Wolfe pointed out t h a t the C a v e Committee had rejected the theory, which was undoubtedly widely held, t h a t Trade Boards had caused unemployment. A s regards the case of Dundee, t h e circumstances were undoubtedly v e r y tragic, but he could give
[ 8 4 4 9 ] B 2

instances of other trades where unemployment was equally severe, a n d where no Trade Board existed. There were special circura­ stances in Dundee which explained the high r a t e of unemployment.
U n d e r the proposed Bill it w o u l d be necessary, in effect, to have a public- enquiry before a n y t r a d e was brought into the system or w a s t a k e n out of the system. Such an enquiry would be a great safeguard. A s regards rates of wages, the jjroposal t h a t in future t h e Trade Boards should only fix minimum rates, and that anything above should only be settled b y a 75 per cent, majority, really imposed v e r y severe restrictions on the powers of the Boards.
W i t h regard to expense, Mr. W o l f e remarked t h a t if no more Trade
Boards w e r e added to the existing list, and if i t were decided to b r e a k u p t h e existing Distributive Trade Boards into District Boards, he estimated t h a t the proposed legislation would not involve an addition of more than 30,000L or 40,000Z.
per annum to the vote.
The Minister of Agriculture pointed out t h a t , in the case of the sixty-one Agricultural Conciliation Committees, it had been agreed t h a t the expense should be shared by the t w o sides.
The Minister of Labour pointed out t h a t these Committees were v o l u n t a r y bodies, and did not include members appointed by the Government. He did not reject the principle of the Trade
Boards bearing t h e expense.
A f t e r various members of t h e Committee had expressed them­ selves as strongly opposed to the recent extensions of the Trade
Boards system, the Chairman suggested t h a t there were three questions for the Committee : —
( l . ) W h e t h e r it was desirable t o introduce legislation during the present session;
( 2 . ) If the answer was in the affirmative, whether such legislation should be on the lines of the draft Bill, or,
(3.) In the alternative, a shorter Bill mainly directed to the exclusion of trades which, for one reason or another, should never have been subjected t o the Trade Boards procedure.
The Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General advised the
Committee t h a t under the existing A c t there was no power for the
Minister of Labour to take a particular trade out of the system unless there had been a material change in the conditions since the time w h e n t h e particular Trade Board was instituted. In this connection a mere change of public opinion w a s not, of course, sufficient.
A f t e r some further discussion, the Committee came to the following conclusions:—
(i.) That in all the circumstances it was desirable to introduce legislation on the Trade Boards s y s t e m during t h e current session.
(ii.) That the following Sub-Committee should be requested to examine the question and report to t h e Committee as to t h e form which such legislation should t a k e :—
The Home Secretary (Chairman),
The Minister of Health,
The Minister of Labour,
The Secretary of S t a t e for the Colonies,
The Secretary for Scotland,
The A t t o r n e y - G e n e r a l or the Solicitor-General,
A Treasury Representative, with
Mr. Pembroke W i c k s as Secretary.

Government of
Northern Ireland
(Loan Guarantee)
Bill.
2.
The Committee had under consideration a Memorandum b y t h e Financial Secretary to t h e Treasury ( C P .
3 9 9 5 ) , covering t h e draft G o v e r n m e n t of Northern Ireland (Loan Guarantee) Bill.
The Committee were informed t h a t t h e Bill w a s required t o implement an undertaking given b y the Chancellor of the E x c h e q u e r to t h e Prime Minister of Northern Ireland to guarantee the principal and interest of loans up to 3 , 5 0 0 , 0 0 0 1 .
to be raised b y the N o r t h e r n
Irish G o v e r n m e n t for certain public works, unemployment insurance and other purposes.
Tb - Committee a g r e e d —
(1.) To approve the draft Bill.
( 2 . ) That, subject to t h e assent of t h e G o v e r n m e n t W h i p s being obtained, steps should be t a k e n to introduce t h e draft
Bill in the House of Commons.
Telegraph (Money)
Bill 1922.
3.
The Committee had under consideration the draft Telegraph
(Money) Bill, 1 9 2 2 ( C P .
4 0 0 2 ) , t h e object of which was to authorise the Treasury to issue from t h e Consolidated F u n d a sum not exceeding 15,0O0,0O0Z.
as may be required by the Postmaster-
General for the purpose of developing t h e telephonic system in
G r e a t Britain and Northern Ireland. The Committee were informed t h a t the existing financial p o w e r s w e r e on the point of exhaustion.
The Committee agreed—-
That, subject to the assent of the G o v e r n m e n t W h i p s , steps should be taken to introduce t h e d r a f t Telegraph (Money)
Bill, 1922, in the House of Commons in the form given in C P .
4 0 0 2 .
2, Whitehall Gardens, S.W.
1,
May 29, 1 9 2 2 .