(c) crown copyright
Catalogue Reference:CAB/23/75
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E JO-
COPY NO.
C A B I N E T
26 ( 3 5 ) .
M e e t i n g o f the C a b i n e t t o be h e l d at
1 0 , Downing S t r e e t , S . W . 1 . , on Monday,
A p r i l 1 0 t h , 1933, a t 1 0 . 3 0 a,m,
A G E N D A :
1. UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE.
( R e f e r e n c e C a b i n e t 25 ( 3 3 ) , C o n c l u s i o n
Third Report of
( C P . 89 ( 3 3 )
2).
C a b i n e t Committee.
already c i r c u l a t e d ) .
Memorandum by t h e M i n i s t e r o f L a b o u r .
( C P . 90 ( 3 3 )
already circulated)'.
(Continuation of
2
*
Discussion).
THE MOTION OP CENSURE (UNEMPLOYMENT
INSURANCE)
( S i g n e d ) M . P . A . HANKEY,
Secretary
Whitehall Gardens,
A p r i l 7 t h , 1933.
S, W, 1, ,
to the
Cabinet.
3
ttC
COPY NO,
RET.
C A B I N E T
26 ( 5 3 ) .
CONCLUSIONS o f a M e e t i n g o f t h e C a b i n e t h e l d
at 1 0 , Downing S t r e e t , S . W . 1 . , on MONDAY,
A p r i l 1 0 t h , 1933, at 10.30 a.m.
PRESENT :
The R i g h t Hon. J , Ran say MacDonald,M.P.
Prime M i n i s t e r ,
( I n the C h a i r ) .
e Right Hon.
Stanley B a l d w i n , M . P . ,
Lord P r e s i d e n t o f the C o u n c i l .
The R i g h t Hon.
N e v i l l e Chamberlain, M.P.,
C h a n c e l l o r o f t h e Exchequer.
e Right Hon.
Sir John G i l m o u r , B t . , D . S . O . ,
M.P. , S e c r e t a r y o f S t a t e f o r
Home A f f a i r s .
The R i g h t Hon.
The V i s c o u n t Sankey, G.B.E. ,
Lord Chancellor.
he Right Hon.
The V i s c o u n t H a i l s h a m ,
Secretary o f S t a t e f o r War.
e Right Hon.
Sir Samuel H o a r e , B t . , G . B . E . ,
C.M.G,.,M.P. , S e c r e t a r y o f
State f o r I n d i a .
Me Most Hon.
The Marquess o f L o n d o n d e r r y ,
K.G., M . V . O . , S e c r e t a r y o f
State f o r A i r .
f Right Hon.
Vir Edward H i l t o n Young,
J.B.E. , D . S . O . , D . S . C . ,M.P. ,
Minister o f H e a l t h .
Right Hon.
Sir B o l t o n E y r e s - M o n s e l l ,
[.B.E. ,M.P. , E i r s t L o r d o f
fhe A d m i r a l t y .
Right Hon.
f i r Henry B e t t e r t o n , B t . ,
i*B.E. , M.P., M i n i s t e r of
labour.
olonel S i r M.P.A.
The R i g h t Hon.
S i r John Simon, G . C . S . I . ,
K . C . V . O . , O . B . E . , K . C . , M.P. ,
Secretary of State for
Foreign A f f a i r s .
The R i g h t Hon.
J . H . Thomas, M . P . , S e c r e t a r y
of S t a t e f o r Dominion A f f a i r s .
The R i g h t Hon.
S i r Godfrey C o l l i n s , K.B.E.,
CM.G.., M.P., Secretary of
State for Scotland.
The R i g h t Hon.
W a l t e r Runciman, M . P . ,
P r e s i d e n t o f t h e Board
Trade.
of
Major The R i g h t Hon.
Walter E l l i o t , M.C., M.P.,
M i n i s t e r o f A g r i c u l t u r e and
Fisheries.
Major The R i g h t Hon.
W. Ormsby-Gore, M . P . ,
F i r s t Commissioner o f Works.
Hankey, G . C . B . , G . C . M . G . ,
S e c r e t a r y t o the
Gab i n e t .
iplOYMENT
1 . The C a b i n e t resumed t h e i r
BANG E .
Friday
n ovs
erence:
inet 25
), Con­
[ision 2 and
bendix . )
last,
on t h e s u b j e c t
and a g a i n had b e f o r e
which w e r e b r i e f l y
d i s c u s s i o n , begun on
o f Unemployment
Insurance,
them t h e two f o l l o w i n g
documents,
summarised on page 4 o f
Conclusions mentioned i n the margin,
the
viz.:-
The T h i r d R e p o r t o f t h e C a b i n e t
Committee ( C . P . - 8 9 ( S 3 . ) ) :
V-A- a 7,
A Memorandum by the M i n i s t e r
Labour f C , P . - 9 0 ( 3 3 ) ) .
ft..
The M i n i s t e r
o f Labour r e f e r r e d
of
to the
last
p a r a g r a p h o f t h e summary o f t h e d i s c u s s i o n on
Unemployment I n s u r a n c e appended t o the
of
Conclusions
the Cabinet Meeting mentioned i n the margin,
and
e x p l a i n e d t h a t he had not i n t e n d e d t o i m p l y t h a t
only p o s s i b l e M i n i s t e r
for
t o undertake
responsibility
t h o s e o u t s i d e i n s u r a n c e should, be t h e
of Health.
Bill
What he d i d mean was t h a t
of the Minister
of
objections
of
the B i l l
would be w i l l i n g
and make e v e r y
points
in reply
statement
If
of
t o take the B i l l
effort
into his
the B i l l ,
he
Department
t o meet t h e v a r i o u s
within the instructions
but he r e g a r d e d
to
o f Labour B i l l ,
t h a t had b e e n r a i s e d i n t h e c o u r s e o f
discussion,
t h e heads
as d e f i n i t e l y
of
the
the
Cabinet;
o f w h i c h were
before
the Cabinet,
course
o f t h e d i s c u s s i o n he made q u i t e c l e a r t h a t
the B i l l
was t o b e a M i n i s t r y
retrograde.
o f Labour B i l l
M i n i s t e r must h a v e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y
scheme f o r
to
his
the Cabinet wished
into a Ministry
possible
obviously
t h e summary o f t h e d i s c u s s i o n
at the preceding M e e t i n g .
convert
observations
the E x c h e q u e r s
on page 6 o f
proposed
Health.
He a l s o made a number o f
the Chancellor
Minister
the
i n c o r p o r a t e d many d u t i e s w h i c h w e r e
duties
the
c o n s i d e r a t i o n by t h e
for
In the
the
preparing
Cabinet.
if
the
6
During the d i s c u s s i o n explanations were g i v e n
c l e a r up m i s u n d e r s t a n d i n g s
the C h a n c e l l o r
contribution
of
on c e r t a i n p o i n t s :
to
e .g..,
t h e Exchequer e x p l a i n e d t h a t
of the Local A u t h o r i t i e s
the
was i n t e n d e d
be put i n t o a common fund and handed o v e r t o
k
to
the
Commission, w h i c h would adopt l a r g e a r e a s w i t h i n which
t h e fund would be u s e d .
The M i n i s t e r
plated that
Office
etc.,
o f H e a l t h e x p l a i n e d t h a t he had contem­
t h e Commission would r e s o r t
t o His
o f Works f o r t h e purchase or h i r e
exactly
of
Majesty's
buildings,
t h e same as would any Government
Depart­
meht.
A good d e a l
question
of
t h e d i s c u s s i o n was d e v o t e d t o
o f whether t h e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y
should r e s t w i t h the M i n i s t e r
of Labour.
the f i e l d
of
receive
of s o c i a l s e r v i c e at present
any
embracing
c o v e r e d by t h e
This proposal, however,
d i d not
support.
The C a b i n e t were informed t h a t
never
o f H e a l t h and
Labour i n t o a s i n g l e M i n i s t r y
two Departments .
t h e Committee had
discussed the q u e s t i o n of which M i n i s t r y
be r e s p o n s i b l e .
o f the Cabinet
Ministry
m
h e main r e a s o n why s e v e r a l members
preferred
the M i n i s t r y
of
Labour t o
o f H e a l t h s a i d he had c o n s i d e r e d
q u e s t i o n s i n c e t h e l a s t M e e t i n g and was o f
of Health
or t h e ' M i n i s t e r
of
d e c i s i o n turned
this
the
responsible
Department was s t a t e d , t o h a v e b o t h p o l i t i c a l
aspects .
taint.
Labour.
q u e s t i o n o f which should be t h e
administrative
the
opinion
t h a t t h e scheme c o u l d be worked under e i t h e r
This
should
o f H e a l t h was i n o r d e r t o a v o i d P o o r Law
The M i n i s t e r
Minister
Minister
t h e r e m i g h t be
i n amalgamating t h e M i n i s t r y
the Ministry
t h e scheme
o f H e a l t h or t h e
One s u g g e s t i o n was t h a t
advantages
for
the
and
I t was s u g g e s t e d t h a t
on whether t h e problem o f
the
the
transitional
payment c l a s s
was r e g a r d e d as p a r t
p r o b l e m or as p a r t
people:
capable
industrial
as t o w h e t h e r
to
the
problem
o f w o r k , but f o r whom work c o u l d not be
industry
or
agreed in the d e s i r e
out t h a t e v e r y o n e was
t o a b o l i s h t h e P o o r Law,
c o n t e m p l a t e d under t h e scheme t o
d i v i d e the
It
transitional
in a d d i t i o n ,
to
deal with
and t h e
the
payment c l a s s , w h i c h l a y b e t w e e n
insured class
and t h e c a s u a l c l a s s .
was
functions
t h e Poor Law b e t w e e n t h e L o c a l A u t h o r i t i e s
Commission, a n d ,
found,
assistance.
^he Prime M i n i s t e r p o i n t e d
that
poor
t h e s e p e o p l e who wanted work and w e r e
was one o f
of
our
o f t h e problem o f r e l i e f
in other words,
of helping
of
the
He was not
t h e C a b i n e t w e r e c l e a r as t o t h e p r e c i s e
sure
line
of
demarcation.
On t h i s
that
for
the M i n i s t e r
infirmaries.public
that
of Health
explained
t h e L o c a l A u t h o r i t i e s would become
mental
m
point
institutions
is
to say,
all
hospitals,
children's
and m e d i c a l r e l i e f
kinds
responsible
of r e l i e f
i n the
payment
class
domicile:
of a medical
h e Commission would t a k e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y
t o the t r a n s i t i o n a l
homes,
and a l l
for
assistance
out-relief
w h i c h was not i n the n a t u r e o f m e d i c a l r e l i e f ,
w h i c h would t h e r e f o r e
include
and
o u t s i d e payments now
made under t h e P o o r Law, The Commission would
take
nature,
also
over the casual wards,
trans i t i o n a l
I t was s u g g e s t e d t h a t
of
function,
this
i n v o l v e d some
s i n c e t h e Commission would h a v e
a r r a n g e a t t h e same t i m e
f o r payments
confusion
to
a t p r e s e n t made
by t h e Poor Law t o a g e d f o l k who would n e v e r work
aerain, as w e l l
1
of
work.
as t o t h e a b l e - b o d i e d man who was out
The M i n i s t e r
of Health agreed that
the point
at
which t h e l i n e was t o he drawn was f u n d a m e n t a l .
In the
scheme t h e f r o n t i e r was drawn b e t w e e n o u t - d o o r r e l i e f
m e d i c a l ^ *u^u,oL
out-door
t h a t i s t o s a y , / r e l i e f which
and/institutional r e l i e f ;
was at p r e s e n t P o o r Law r e l i e f would be
medical
to
transferred
the Commission, w h e r e a s , i n s t i t u t i o n a l
be t r a n s f e r r e d
relief
to the Local A u t h o r i t i e s .
f o r t h i s were t w o f o l d :
first,
The r e a s o n s
that the experts
Department w e r e unanimous t h a t any d e f i n i t i o n
" a b l e - b o d i e d " was,
ticable:
for
and, s e c o n d ,
would
administrative
of
purposes,
t h a t t h e r e was no r e a l
i n p r i n c i p l e b e t w e e n an e l d e r l y
of
his
the
imprac­
distinction
person r e c e i v i n g
assist­
ance a t t h e d o m i c i l e and a young a b l e - b o d i e d man who
was out o f w o r k .
same
Both ought t o be t r e a t e d w i t h
the
consideration.
^he M i n i s t e r
gave e x a c t l y
State f o r
of
Labour r e p o r t e d
the contrary
advice,
that his
and t h e S e c r e t a r y
Scotland advised the Cabinet
a differentiation
between the
was i n f a c t
"able-bodied"
experts
that
regularly
and p e r s o n s
in
of
Scotland
practised
"unfit
for
employment".
At t h i s
Affairs
All
point
the S e c r e t a r y
of
summed up t h e p o s i t i o n as
the Cabinet
want an i m p o r t a n t
of
for
Foreign
follows:-
appeared t o be a g r e e d that they
scheme which w o u l d s t r i k e
i m a g i n a t i o n and s h o u l d emphasise
taking
State
i n hand more e f f e c t i v e l y
that
the
public
t h e S t a t e was
than h i t h e r t o the
t h o s e who want work but cannot
did
find
it.
case
The method
by which t h a t was t o be a c c o m p l i s h e d i n c l u d e d t h e
setting
existing
up o f a Commission and t h e a b o l i t i o n
P o o r Law.
draw the l i n e
The p r a c t i c a l
as t o what f u n c t i o n s
t o the Commission and what t o t h e
difficulty
s h o u l d be
Local
of
was
the
to
transferred
Authorities.
He s u g g e s t e d
it
that
if
the o b j e c t
s h o u l d n o t be i m p o s s i b l e
""he C a b i n e t
t h e B i l l was
t o d i s c o v e r how t h e
was t o b e drawn, and t h e e x p e r t s
c o n c e r n e d might b e c a l l e d
of
of
the
in f o r t h i s
clear
line
Departments
purpose.
agreed
That a C a b i n e t C o m m i t t e e ,
follows
-
composed as
The C h a n c e l l o r o f t h e Exchequer
( i n the C h a i r ) ,
The S e c r e t a r y o f S t a t e f o r Home
Affairs,
The S e c r e t a r y o f S t a t e f o r Dominion
Affairs,
he Secretary of State for Scotland,
^he M i n i s t e r o f H e a l t h ,
The M i n i s t e r o f A g r i c u l t u r e and
Fisheries,
h e M i n i s t e r of Labour,
The F i r s t Commissioner o f Works —
m
0
s h o u l d r e - e x a m i n e t h e scheme s u b m i t t e d
t o the Cabinet i n C P . - 8 9 ( 3 3 ) , i n the
l i g h t of the Cabinet's discussions,
w i t h a v i e w t o r e a c h i n g an a g r e e d
scheme.
They s h o u l d a l s o r e p o r t as
t o w h i c h M i n i s t r y , or M i n i s t r i e s ,
t h e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y f o r c a r r y i n g out
t h e scheme s h o u l d be a l l o t t e d .
LfliPLOYMENT
IjJjgORANOE.
Note o f
Censure.
2 . The C a b i n e t had under c o n s i d e r a t i o n
f o l l o w i n g Vote
April
12th,
the
o f Censure t o be moved on Wednesday,
i n t h e House o f
Commons:­
"That t h i s House r e g r e t s t h a t ,
i n s t e a d o f making t h e burden
o f unemployment a n a t i o n a l
c h a r g e , His M a j e s t y ' s G o v e r n ­
ment have d r i v e n l a r g e numbers
o f a b l e - b o d i e d unemployed p e r s o n s
t o s e e k t h e a i d o f t h e Poor Law,
thereby exhausting the resources
o f an e v e r - i n c r e a s i n g number o f
local authorities".
(previous
Reference:
Cabinet 25
(33), C o n ­
elusion 2 . )
PR,
The M i n i s t e r
difficulties
if
o f H e a l t h p o i n t e d out t h a t
o f t h e Debate would be v e r y
only a temporising
on b e h a l f
o f the
He u r g e d t h a t some form o f
relief
considerable
or n e g a t i v e r e p l y were
t o the representations
areas.
the
t o the seriously
given
distressed
non-permanent
d i s t r e s s e d areas
announced p e n d i n g the c o m p l e t i o n o f t h e
s h o u l d be
Government's
p e rma n e nt s cheme .
This
r a i s e d t h e q u e s t i o n as t o w h e t h e r some g e n e r a l
reference
c o u l d be made i n t h e D e b a t e t o the scheme
now under c o n s i d e r a t i o n by t h e
The C h a n c e l l o r
that
once e x t r a
they were only
Cabinet.
of the Exchequer's
g r a n t s were g i v e n ,
temporary,
now i n c o n t e m p l a t i o n ,
the scheme.
was
e v e n though nominally
t h e y c o u l d n e v e r be
t h e y would form t h e s t a r t i n g - p o i n t
with Local Authorities
difficulty
of the
recovered;
negotiations
i n c o n n e c t i o n w i t h t h e scheme
i n s t e a d o f b e i n g merged
He thought
that possibly
some
into
relief­
m i g h t be g i v e n i n t h e most u r g e n t c a s e s by means o f a
re-distribution
The M i n i s t e r
grant
of block
grants.
of Health suggested that
Exchequer
g i v e n might be a s s e s s e d i n a temporary manner
pending the adoption o f the l a r g e r
consideration,
effect
any
until
scheme now under
w h i c h i n any e v e n t c o u l d not
next y e a r .
g i v e n , why s h o u l d i t
If
a s s i s t a n c e was t o b e
not be prompt?
-6­
take
A t t e n t i o n was drawn t o s t a t e m e n t s
in the Press
t h e Government c o n s i d e r e d t h a t t h e c o s t
that
of r e l i e f
to
t h e a b l e - b o d i e d should r e s t w i t h t h e C h a n c e l l o r
of
Exchequer.
taken.
No d e c i s i o n t o t h a t
effect
I t was s u g g e s t e d t h a t t h e M i n i s t e r
p e r m i t t e d t o announce t h a t ,
country,
of r e l i e f
had been
the
o f H e a l t h m i g h t be
i n the circumstances
the Government w e r e p r e p a r e d t o t a k e t h e
of
the
cost
t o a b l e - b o d i e d unemployed on t o t h e Exchequer,
but that t h e Local A u t h o r i t i e s
would have t o
that
of the block
t h i s meant a r e a d j u s t m e n t
The C a b i n e t a g r e e d
recognise
grants.
—
(a)
That t h e M i n i s t e r o f H e a l t h s h o u l d
r e p l y on b e h a l f o f t h e Government
t o the Vote o f Censure:
(b)
That t h e M i n i s t e r o f H e a l t h and
t h e C h a n c e l l o r o f t h e Exchequer
should discuss the question of
announcing some temporary as s i s t ­
ance t o t h e most d i s t r e s s e d a r e a s
pending t h e permanent scheme on
which the Cabinet are w o r k i n g :
(c)
That t h e M i n i s t e r o f H e a l t h s h o u l d
c i r c u l a t e to the Cabinet, b e f o r e
Wednesday's M e e t i n g , a b r i e f
i n d i c a t i o n i n summary o f t h e l i n e
he p r o p o s e d t o t a k e i n t h e D e b a t e :
id)
^ h a t t h e q u e s t i o n o f who s h o u l d
w i n d up t h e D e b a t e s h o u l d be l e f t
t o t h e Prime M i n i s t e r t o d e c i d e i n
c o n s u l t a t i o n w i t h the Lord P r e s i d e n t
of the Council.
RUSSIA.
Anglo-Soviet
delations ,
III
im
Arrest o f
British.
Subjects ,
3,
The S e c r e t a r y
of State for Foreign
i n f o r m e d t h e Cabinet
that
that
t h e r e appeared every
t h e Englishmen now under t r i a l
be c o n v i c t e d and s e n t e n c e d .
therefore,
(previous
Reference:
Cabinet 23
( 3 3 ) , Oon­
clusion 2 . )
to let
i n which t h e
that
It
risk
i n Russia would
seemed v e r y
desirable,
t h e B r i t i s h p u b l i c know t h e manner
e v i d e n c e had b e e n t a k e n .
After
our Charge d A f f a i r e s
t i o n w i t h Mr S t r a n g ,
and w i t h h i s
Affairs
T
a g r e e m e n t , he had come t o t h e
consulta­
a t Moscow,
conclusion
i t would be a d v i s a b l e t o i s s u e a new W h i t e
w h i c h would p r e p a r e
be t h e r e s u l t
A short
of the
f o r what was l i k e l y
to
trial.
d i s c u s s i o n t o o k p l a c e as t o w h e t h e r a
stenographic
note
was urged t h a t
on v e r y
the public
Paper
full
of the t r i a l
t h e B r i t i s h p u b l i c was l i k e l y
information.
suggested that the evidence
giving baldly
should be t a k e n .
to
It
insist
On t h e o t h e r hand, i t was
of a shorthand-note,
t h e trumped-up e v i d e n c e
irrespective
o f t h e s u r r o u n d i n g c i r c u m s t a n c e s , might be
completely
misleading.
The S e c r e t a r y
that
of State for
more e f f e c t i v e
practical
Foreign Affairs
said
i n f o r m a t i o n was
likely
t o be o b t a i n e d from a n o t e t a k e n by a
diplomatic
representative.
The C a b i n e t a g r e e d
—
To a p p r o v e t h e s u g g e s t i o n o f t h e
S e c r e t a r y of S t a t e " f o r F o r e i g n
A f f a i r s f o r t h e i s s u e o f a new
White Paper.
2, W h i t e h a l l G a r d e n s ,
April
S.W.1,
10, 19 3 3 .