EXHIBIT R
Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 1 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2046 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA
COUNTY OF WAKE
IN THE GENERAL COURT OF JUSTICE
SUPERIOR COURT DIVISION
11 CVS 16896
11 CVS 16940
MARGARET DICKSON, et al.,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ROBERT RUCHO, in his
official capacity only as
the Chairman of the North
Carolina Senate
Redistricting Committee,
et al.,
Defendants.
___________________________
NORTH CAROLINA STATE
CONFERENCE OF BRANCHES OF
THE NAACP, et al.,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA,
et al.,
Defendants.
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DEPOSITION OF THOMAS HOFELLER, Ph.D.
VOLUME II
_______________________________________________________
9:31 A.M.
FRIDAY, AUGUST 10, 2012
________________________________________________________
POYNER SPRUILL
301 FAYETTEVILLE STREET
SUITE 1900
RALEIGH, NC 27601
By:
Denise Myers Byrd, CSR 8340, RPR
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
VIVIAN TILLEY & ASSOCIATES
ctrptr4u@aol.com
tel:919.847.5787
fax: 919.847.2265
Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 2 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2047 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 182
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
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A P P E A R A N C E S
For the Plaintiffs, NAACP:
SOUTHERN COALITION FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE
BY: ANITA EARLS, ESQ.
ALLISON RIGGS, ESQ.
CHRIS KETCHIE, Policy Analyst
1415 West Highway 54
Suite 101
Durham, NC 27707
(919) 323-3380
anita@southerncoalition.org
allison@southerncoalition.org
For the Plaintiffs, Margaret Dickson, et al.:
POYNER SPRUILL
BY: EDWIN M. SPEAS, JR., ESQ.
301 Fayetteville Street
Suite 1900
Raleigh, NC 27601
(919) 783-2881
espeas@poynerspruill.com
For All Defendants:
16
N.C. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
BY: ALEXANDER McC. PETERS,
SPECIAL DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL
114 W. Edenton Street
Raleigh, NC 27603
(919) 716-6900
apeters@ncdoj.gov
17
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For the Legislative Defendants:
OGLETREE DEAKINS
BY: THOMAS A. FARR, ESQ.
4208 Six Forks Road
Suite 1100
Raleigh, NC 27609
(919) 789-3174
thomas.farr@ogletreedeakins.com
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
VIVIAN TILLEY & ASSOCIATES
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 3 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2048 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 183
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
2
DALTON L. OLDHAM, ESQ.
3
1119 Susan Street
Columbia, SC
4
29210
803-772-7729
5
--o0o--
6
7
8
INDEX OF EXAMINATION
9
Page
10
11
By Ms. Earls............................
192
361
12
By Mr. Speas............................
365
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264
By Mr. Farr.............................
364
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--o0o--
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5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
VIVIAN TILLEY & ASSOCIATES
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tel:919.847.5787
fax: 919.847.2265
Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 4 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2049 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 184
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
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INDEX OF EXHIBITS
EXHIBIT NO.
DESCRIPTION
Page
504
Maptitude screen shot 1
199
505
Maptitude screen shot 2
201
506
Maptitude screen shot 3
203
507
Maptitude screen shot 4
205
508
Maptitude screen shot 5
207
509
Maptitude screen shot 6
210
510
Maptitude screen shot 7
211
511
Maptitude screen shot 8
214
512
E-mail to Joel Raupe from tom Hofeller,
June 14, 2011,
Subject:
12
NC House with Changes to
Wake by Art P.
223
13
513
14
15
Second Affidavit of
Thomas B. Hofeller, Ph.D.
514
233
The Looming Redistricting Storm
How will the Republican Party Fare?
16
17
Thomas B. Hofeller, Ph.D.
515
PowerPoint: Compactness in the
Redistricting Process
18
19
244
(58 slides)
516
PowerPoint: Compactness in the
Redistricting Process
20
21
243
248
(63 slides)
517
Measuring Compactness and the Role of a
Compactness Standard in a Test for
22
23
Partisan and Racial Gerrymandering
518
249
Expert Report of Thomas B. Hofeller,
Ph.D., Filed July 11, 2011
251
24
25
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 5 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2050 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 185
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
2
3
519
Map: Nassau County - Possible Hispanic
Majority District
252
4
520
5
6
521
7
8
522
9
10
523
11
12
524
PowerPoint: What I've Learned about
Redistricting - The Hard Way!
252
Excerpts of Deposition of
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D., December 8, 1993,
Shaw vs. Hunt
255
Maps: Rucho Senate VRA Districts District 4; Rucho Senate 1 - District 4;
Rucho Senate 2 - District 4
273
Maps: Rucho Senate VRA Districts District 5; Rucho Senate 1 - District 5;
Rucho Senate 2 - District 5
278
Maps: Rucho Senate 1 - District 7;
Rucho Senate 2 - District 7
285
13
525
Maps: Rucho Senate VRA Districts District 14; Rucho Senate 1 - District 14;
Rucho Senate 2 - District 14
288
526
Maps: Rucho Senate VRA Districts District 21; Rucho Senate 1 - District 21;
Rucho Senate 2 - District 21
290
527
Maps: Rucho Senate 1 - District 19;
Rucho Senate 2 - District 19
293
Maps: Rucho Senate VRA Districts District 20; Rucho Senate 1 - District 20;
Rucho Senate 2 - District 20
294
Maps: Rucho Senate VRA Districts District 28; Rucho Senate 1 - District 28;
Rucho Senate 2 - District 28
296
Maps: Rucho Senate VRA Districts District 32; Rucho Senate 1 - District 32;
Rucho Senate 2 - District 32
297
14
15
16
17
18
19
528
20
21
529
22
23
530
24
25
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 6 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2051 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 186
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
2
3
531
4
5
532
6
7
533
Maps: Rucho Senate VRA Districts District 38; Rucho Senate 1 - District 38;
Rucho Senate 2 - District 38
301
Maps: Rucho Senate VRA Districts District 40; Rucho Senate 1 - District 40;
Rucho Senate 2 - District 40
302
Maps: Rucho Senate 1 - District 41;
Rucho Senate 2 - District 41
306
8
534
9
Maps: Lewis House VRA Corrected District 2; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 District 5
309
Maps: Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 1 District 10; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 District 10
315
Maps: Lewis House VRA Corrected District 12; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 District 12
316
10
535
11
12
536
13
14
537
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
538
539
540
541
Maps: Lewis House VRA Corrected District 21; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 1 District 21; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 District 21
Maps: Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 1 District 4; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 District 4
Maps: Lewis House VRA Corrected District 23; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 District 7
Maps: Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 1 District 25; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 District 25
Maps: Lewis House VRA Corrected District 31; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 District 29
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
VIVIAN TILLEY & ASSOCIATES
ctrptr4u@aol.com
318
320
322
323
324
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 7 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2052 Page 187
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
2
3
4
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9
10
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542
543
544
545
546
547
548
549
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Maps: Lewis House VRA Corrected District 30; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham
District 31
Maps: Lewis House VRA Corrected District 38; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham
District 33
Maps: Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 1 District 34; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham
District 34
Maps: Lewis House VRA Corrected District 33; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham
District 38
Maps: Lewis House VRA Corrected District 42; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham
District 42
Maps: Lewis House VRA Corrected District 43; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham
District 43
Maps: Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 1 District 45; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham
District 45
Maps: Lewis House VRA Corrected District 47; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham
District 47; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham
District 47
4 325
4 327
4 328
4 329
4 330
4 331
4 332
1 4 333
19
550
20
Maps: Lewis House VRA Corrected District 48; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 District 48
334
Maps: Lewis House VRA Corrected District 64; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 District 57
340
Maps: Lewis House VRA Corrected District 63; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 District 58
341
21
551
22
23
552
24
25
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
VIVIAN TILLEY & ASSOCIATES
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tel:919.847.5787
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 8 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2053 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 188
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
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5
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20
21
22
23
24
25
553
554
555
556
557
558
559
560
561
562
563
564
Maps: Lewis House VRA Corrected District 60; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 District 60
Maps: Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 1 District 66; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 District 66
Maps: Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 1 District 75; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 District 75
Maps: Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 1 District 92; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 Mecklenburg County
Maps: Lewis House VRA Corrected District 82; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 District 99
Maps: Lewis House VRA Corrected District 89; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 District 101
Maps: Lewis House VRA Corrected District 87; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 District 102
Maps: Lewis House VRA Corrected District 80; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 District 106
Maps: Lewis House VRA Corrected District 86; Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 District 107
Typewritten document "Background"
E-mail string between Tom Hofeller and
Joel Raupe, June 19 & 20, 2011,
Subject: NC Congressional Plan
E-mail string between Thomas Farr and
others, June 30, 2011,
Subject: Attorney-Client Communication
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
VIVIAN TILLEY & ASSOCIATES
ctrptr4u@aol.com
342
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tel:919.847.5787
fax: 919.847.2265
Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 9 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2054 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 189
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
2
3
565
E-mail string between Sen. Rucho,
Tom Hofeller and others, July 14, 2011,
Subject: Grouping Plans to I: Drive for
4
Internal Access
356
5
566
6
E-mail between Tom Hofeller and Joel
Raupe, July 5, 2011,
Subject: Census Block 371639701002019
7
Erroneously Assigned to District 3
360
8
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5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
VIVIAN TILLEY & ASSOCIATES
ctrptr4u@aol.com
tel:919.847.5787
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 10 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2055 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 190
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
STIPULATIONS
1
2
3
It is hereby stipulated and agreed between the
4
parties to this action, through their respective
5
counsel of record:
6
1.
That Volume II of the deposition of the
7
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D., may be taken on August 10,
8
2012, at 9:30 a.m. in Raleigh, NC, before Denise
9
Myers, CSR 8340, RPR.
10
2.
That the deposition shall be taken and used
11
as permitted by the applicable North Carolina Rules
12
of Civil Procedure.
13
3.
That any objections of any party hereto as to
14
notice of the taking of said deposition or as to the
15
time or place thereof, or as to the competency of the
16
person before whom the same shall be taken, are
17
deemed to have been met.
18
4.
That objections to questions and motions to
19
strike answers need not be made during the taking of
20
this deposition, but may be made for the first time
21
during the progress of the trial of this case, or at
22
any pretrial hearing held before any judge of
23
competent jurisdiction for the purpose of ruling
24
thereon, or any other hearing at which said
25
deposition shall be used, except that objections to
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 11 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2056 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 191
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
the form of the question must be made at the time
2
such question is asked or objection as to the form of
3
the question is waived.
4
5.
5
sign the transcript prior to it being sealed.
6
6.
7
be mailed First Class Postage Paid or hand-delivered
8
to the party taking the deposition for preservation
9
and delivery to the Court if and when necessary.
That the witness reserves the right to read and
That the sealed original of the transcript shall
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12
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15
16
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18
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20
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 12 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2057 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 192
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
THOMAS HOFELLER, Ph.D.,
1
2
having been previously affirmed by the Certified Shorthand
3
Reporter and Notary Public to tell the truth, the whole
4
truth and nothing but the truth, testified as follows:
FURTHER EXAMINATION
5
6
BY MS. EARLS:
7
Q.
Good morning, Dr. Hofeller.
This is the
8
continuation of your deposition that we started on
9
Thursday, June 28th.
So I will remind you that you're still
10
11
under oath and all of the things I said at the
12
beginning of that day, including to ask you if you
13
need a break, let me know.
And if there are any documents that would
14
15
help you answer a question that I ask, please let
16
me know.
17
on that day here again.
We have all of the exhibits that we used
And I certainly want to thank you for
18
19
coming back.
And I don't have a lot more, but I do
20
have some areas that we were not able to cover that
21
day.
Let me start by explaining that your
22
23
testimony identified four main areas of involvement
24
in North Carolina's redistricting following the
25
2010 Census:
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
The gathering data before the Census
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 13 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2058 Page 193
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
data was actually released, discussion about
2
criteria and the architecture of the plans, then
3
the actual drawing of the maps, and then once they
4
had been enacted, your role as an expert doing
5
expert analysis for the purposes of this
6
litigation.
I think we had pretty much concluded the
7
8
drawing-maps stage, but I have a few more questions
9
about that and then I want to turn to your expert
testimony in this case.
10
My first question about the map drawing is
11
12
I want to ask you about information that you had
13
available to you and I want to show you what has
14
previously been marked as Exhibit 81.
15
exhibit to the deposition of Erica Churchill.
This was an
Would you take a minute to review
16
Exhibit 81.
17
18
A.
(Witness complying.)
19
Q.
Have you had a chance to look at it?
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
Can you tell me what Exhibit 81 is?
22
A.
Well, it looks to me like a list of races for
Thank you.
23
Congressional districts in North Carolina from, I
24
guess, 1992 through 2010.
25
Q.
Did you ever see this information, whether in this
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 14 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2059 Page 194
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
format or some other format, at any time prior to
2
the redistricting plans being enacted?
3
A.
This specific list that I have in front of me?
4
Q.
Or similar data, if it was in electronic format as
opposed to printed out.
5
6
A.
I'm sorry, but this isn't data.
list of races.
7
Did you have this -This is just a
Oh, I see, it's the results.
8
Q.
Right.
9
A.
You know, I probably would not have looked directly
10
at these results.
11
computer system and the computer system had
12
election results in it and that's what we used.
13
Q.
We were using the Maptitude
If you look at the 1st Congressional race on the
14
first page of Exhibit 81, in addition to showing
15
the vote total for the candidates in the 1st
16
Congressional District, it also identifies the race
17
and ethnicity of the candidates.
Do you see that?
18
19
A.
I see that, yes.
Thank you.
20
Q.
And then it has the voter registration by race in
the district at the time of the election.
21
22
MR. FARR:
23
You can answer.
24
BY MS. EARLS:
25
Q.
I'm sorry.
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
Objection to the form.
Voting age population.
VIVIAN TILLEY & ASSOCIATES
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 15 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2060 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 195
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
registration.
1
2
A.
I was looking at --
3
Q.
I apologize.
age population for the election year.
4
5
A.
Yes, but I presume that that would be from the 1990
6
Census.
7
election.
8
It has total population and voting
Q.
The Census data is not updated for every
Right.
9
Then the next page has similar information
10
for the 12th Congressional District, by that I mean
11
it has the race and ethnicity of the candidates and
12
it has 1990 population and voting age population
13
data for --
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
-- that district.
And then the same is true for every other
16
17
contest, that is, it shows the race and ethnicity
18
of the candidates and the total population and
19
voting age population broken down by race in that
20
district.
21
A.
That's what it appears to me to be.
22
Q.
In the data that you had available to you when you
23
were looking at the election returns, did you also
24
know the race of the candidates in the elections?
25
A.
I wouldn't have had all of the candidates that ran
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 16 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2061 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 196
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
and all of their races.
2
the 12th District and the 1st District were
3
represented by African Americans.
4
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
And if you wish, you can take a minute to look at
It looks to be similar results for selected Senate
districts.
15
16
It says Senate Legislative Races with Minority
that exhibit.
13
14
Can you also turn to Exhibit 82 and just read for
Candidates 2006 through 2010.
11
12
I don't really think I
us what Exhibit 82 is.
9
10
I don't recall seeing it.
ever saw that exhibit.
7
8
But you don't recall seeing Exhibit 81 prior to
drawing --
5
6
I would have known that
Q.
And again, it indicates the race and ethnicity of
17
the candidates in the elections and it also tells
18
you the total population and voting age population
19
and broken down by race for that district.
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
And can you also look at Exhibit 83.
22
A.
(Witness complying.)
23
Q.
Can you tell us the --
24
A.
Well, again, I think I'm going to see that it's the
25
same general data again for selected districts in
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 17 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2062 Page 197
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
previous elections.
1
2
Q.
And Exhibit 83 are the House legislative races?
3
A.
Yes, the State House of Representatives.
4
Q.
Did you see Exhibits 82 or 83 at any time prior to
the plans being enacted?
5
6
A.
I never saw these exhibits.
7
Q.
And then I do -- finally let me ask you about
Exhibit 94 which I think is the last one there.
8
9
A.
Well, the title says Statewide Partisan and
10
Non-Partisan and U.S. Senate Races which, of
11
course, are also statewide.
Again, it looks like selected races for
12
statewide candidates.
13
14
Q.
And this information includes the race and
15
ethnicity of the candidate and the -- because
16
they're statewide, it has the statewide Census data
17
for population and voting age population and broken
18
down by race; is that correct?
19
A.
Yes, although the statewide data would not have
20
changed from race to race.
21
data.
22
Q.
It's just all Census
Did you see Exhibit 94 at any time prior to the
redistricting plans being enacted?
23
24
A.
No, not to my recollection.
25
Q.
The other thing I want to try to understand is when
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 18 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2063 Page 198
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
you were drawing the redistricting plans -- and I'm
2
really talking now about the legislative and
3
Congressional districts -- what information you had
4
in front of you on the screen.
5
like to do is use this screen here and pull up a
6
map of the enacted plan and ask you a few
7
questions.
So what I would
To preserve the record, we will create
8
screen shots and we will label them as exhibit
9
10
numbers and we'll print them out at the first break
11
so that everyone will have a copy of them.
As I'm asking the questions, you'll also be
12
13
able to see the screen shots and the exhibit
14
numbers so you can confirm that we're preserving
15
what we're looking at.
So the first shot here that we're looking
16
17
at now, we have loaded the block assignment files
18
from the General Assembly website for the Rucho
19
Senate 2 plan, the enacted plan.
And can I ask you, Dr. Hofeller, does that
20
21
appear to you to be the Rucho Senate 2 enacted
22
redistricting plan for North Carolina?
23
A.
Yes.
MR. FARR:
24
25
Can we have an exhibit number
for that?
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 19 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2064 Page 199
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
MS. EARLS:
1
say.
2
That's what I was about to
Can you take a screen shot of that.
THE WITNESS:
3
It's your exhibit so I don't
4
know if it's compact or not.
5
but it looks like it's right.
MS. EARLS:
6
I can't tell that,
Can you mark that as
Exhibit 504.
7
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 504 was marked for
8
identification.)
9
10
BY MS. EARLS:
11
Q.
Looking at what we've marked as Exhibit 504, does
12
that appear to you to be the Maptitude
13
Redistricting program that you were using?
14
A.
It is.
15
Q.
Can you now zoom into Senate District 14 in Wayne
county.
16
What we have on the screen now, does that
17
18
appear to be Senate District 14 in the Rucho
19
Senate 2 plan?
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
And the other elements that we see on the screen,
22
so we see a map.
23
data box.
24
25
A.
On the left-hand side there's a
Can you describe what that is?
Yes, although I usually put it on the other side,
but at any rate, that is a panel which will tell
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 20 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2065 Page 200
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
you when you add or subtract an area to a district
2
or just when you click on the district, there's a
3
way you can bring the panel up.
4
show you the characteristics of the district.
MS. EARLS:
5
Can you move the panel to the
other side.
6
7
BY MS. EARLS:
8
Q.
Did the screen generally look like this when you
were working with maps?
9
10
Another way will
A.
Well, there's another panel that I usually put
11
above the panel, which is the tool box that you use
12
to actually make the assignments of the areas.
13
MS. EARLS:
14
MR. KETCHIE:
I think it's this right
THE WITNESS:
Yeah.
here.
15
16
17
above that.
18
different spots.
19
left-handed.
20
BY MS. EARLS:
21
Q.
22
Can you add that tool bar.
I usually put it
Everybody places their little boxes in
Maybe it's because I'm
I don't know.
I just want to get a general sense of what this
screen might have looked like.
Was there anything else that you were
23
24
using as a tool generally when you were drawing
25
redistricting maps?
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 21 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2066 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 201
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
There's another tool box that allows you to zoom in
2
and zoom out, go back to the previous map, which I
3
usually put on the far left.
4
mean, that's all right.
5
Q.
Over farther.
I
That shows what there was.
So let's mark this as an exhibit.
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 505 was marked for
6
identification.)
7
8
BY MS. EARLS:
9
Q.
So this is Exhibit 505.
Does this generally begin
10
to look like what you were looking at when you were
11
drawing districts?
12
A.
Generally, yes.
13
Q.
It might help at this point to zoom in to a closer
14
area on the map because I'm assuming you're going
15
to be looking at a more zoomed-in level when you're
16
working with the district.
17
A.
Sometimes.
Sometimes not.
18
Q.
So before you change this, when you were working at
19
a level or a scale, I guess I would say, that
20
showed the entire district, were there any other
21
layers of data that you had showing on the map?
22
A.
Of course there were different layers showing at
23
different times for different purposes, so you
24
have -- well, never mind.
25
Q.
Well, could you explain generally what types of
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 22 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2067 Page 202
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
layers you would be using and for what purposes?
1
2
A.
Well, generally, I guess county lines would be on
3
there, but I think maybe you have county lines, but
4
just by virtue of the fact that these particular
5
sets of districts stop at the county line, so I
6
might have county showing usually under the
7
district boundary and wider so it showed as a
8
background to the district line when you were
9
following a county line.
I could have VTDs up there, a VTD layer.
10
11
I could have a Census place layer, Census place as
12
being both incorporated cities and Census
13
designated places.
14
showing, although at this level of scale it would
15
be a little difficult to use them.
16
Q.
And I could have blocks
Well, let's zoom in to a particular precinct so we
17
can get to -- I don't know if you call it a higher
18
or lower scale but a more zoomed-in picture.
19
you zoom in on Precinct 09-01.
Can
20
Now, what you're looking at right now, do
21
you recognize those labels that show it's Precinct
22
9-01?
23
A.
Yes, except for we wouldn't have all those numbers
24
to the left of the 9-01.
25
there.
5813 Shawood Drive
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They don't need to be up
It just crowds the map and makes it
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 23 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2068 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 203
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
unnecessarily busy.
1
2
Q.
And I think we were trying to use only the data
3
that was on the General Assembly website, and I
4
think that's why we made changes, and I think
5
that's why we have such long label of numbers for
6
precinct labels.
7
A.
I don't know what elements he actually selected to
put in that field.
8
Did you use the label or did you use the
9
precinct number or the name?
10
MR. KETCHIE:
11
labeling.
12
The voting district layer
I used the VTD field.
THE WITNESS:
13
You might try name.
There
you go.
14
15
MS. EARLS:
Thank you.
16
So let's mark this as an exhibit.
17
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 506 was marked for
identification.)
18
19
BY MS. EARLS:
20
Q.
So Exhibit 506 shows Precinct 09-01 as it's labeled
in the very middle of the page there.
21
As you can see up to the upper left,
22
23
there's Precinct 19-09 and then to the right lower
24
right there's Precinct 9-3; is that right?
25
A.
9-03.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 24 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2069 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 204
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
And then on this particular picture, the red line
2
is the district line and the blue lines are the
3
precinct lines; is that correct?
4
A.
That's correct.
5
Q.
Can you add --
6
A.
Maybe I'd make those districts a little bit bigger.
MR. KETCHIE:
7
The voting district or the
actual --
8
9
THE WITNESS:
10
can't really read it.
11
yours, I guess.
12
Good.
13
MS. EARLS:
The actual district.
I
My eyes aren't as good as
Thanks.
So now I will mark this, but
14
let me see if I can add a couple of other things so
15
hold off a minute.
16
BY MS. EARLS:
17
Q.
So now we have labeled District 14 inside the red
18
area and District 18 -- Senate District 18 is all
19
the area outside of it; is that right?
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
In addition to these lines, can you add the Census
22
block lines and the layer that shows the gradations
23
by race.
Just for illustrative purposes, we've now
24
25
added a layer that shows the Census blocks and
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 25 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2070 Page 205
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
there's a key on the left-hand side that shows by
2
zero to -- or 20 percent and below, 20 to
3
40 percent, 40 to 60, 60 to 80 and 80 to
4
100 percent.
5
A.
Is that screen actually in focus or are my eyes
really that bad?
6
7
Dale, can you read that legend?
8
MR. OLDHAM:
Barely, though.
I'm having
issues as well.
9
MS. EARLS:
10
My technical skills to operate
11
this projector are similarly limited, but I would
12
be happy for you to walk up there if that would
13
make it easier to see.
THE WITNESS:
14
15
BY MS. EARLS:
16
Q.
It's clearer from here.
So when you stand there, we'll need you to speak
up.
17
18
A.
All right.
19
Q.
Thanks.
MS. EARLS:
20
So let's mark this as an
exhibit so we know what we're talking about.
21
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 507 was marked for
22
identification.)
23
24
BY MS. EARLS:
25
Q.
So what we're looking at right now which has been
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 26 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2071 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 206
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
marked as Exhibit 507, am I -- have I correctly
2
described what's on that screen?
3
A.
Would you repeat your description again.
4
Q.
So my description is we're looking at precinct --
5
in the center of the screen is precinct 09-01 in
6
Wake county.
7
the other district bordering it is District 18.
8
The smaller areas of geography are the Census
9
blocks and a layer of data has been added to show
The red line defines the District 14,
10
the racial composition, the total any part black
11
voting age population, 18 and over population using
12
2010 Census data and the screen goes from the gray
13
areas being 20 percent 18 and over any part black
14
and below up to 80 percent and above being the
15
darkest green.
16
A.
screen, yes.
17
18
Well, you've correctly described what is on the
Q.
Does that -- is that an example of what might have
19
been on -- what you were looking at when you were
20
drawing this district and wanting to evaluate the
21
voting age population of the district?
22
A.
Not precisely, no.
23
Q.
What else would you be -- what else would you have?
24
A.
First of all, I would have added the population of
25
the blocks in.
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Go up to size and raise it to
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 27 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2072 Page 207
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
eight.
Go to color -- excuse me.
2
make it black.
3
to overlaps.
4
scale is.
5
up.
Go to color and
Go down and bold it.
Okay.
Go up
Clear the -- I don't know what the
Okay.
That's cleared.
See what comes
Good.
6
Q.
Are there any other changes?
7
A.
I would not have used a monochromatic scale.
8
Q.
So what scale would you have used?
9
A.
The rainbow colors.
That will do for this display.
10
11
Q.
Are there any other changes you would make?
12
A.
Well, I may have scaled them differently, but
13
that's not important.
14
might be used.
15
there, of course, but that is a display that could
16
have been used.
That wasn't always what was up
MS. EARLS:
17
This is illustrious of what
Can we mark this as
Exhibit 508.
18
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 508 was marked for
19
identification.)
20
21
BY MS. EARLS:
22
Q.
So then if I understand your testimony,
23
Exhibit 508, which is what we're looking at right
24
now on the screen, is illustrative of what you
25
would have been looking at when you were drawing
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 28 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2073 Page 208
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Senate districts in the Wake county area, although
2
there would have been other data in other screens
3
you would have looked at?
4
MR. FARR:
Objection to the form.
5
THE WITNESS:
6
of the themes I might have had.
That's illustrative of one
7
BY MS. EARLS:
8
Q.
What other themes were you using?
9
A.
Well, I might have used a political factor on the
10
screen and I might not have had a thematic on the
11
blocks at all.
12
Q.
I might have just had populations.
We might try to do those or at least the political
13
theme in a minute, but I want to just take a look
14
at what happens when you are actually drawing the
15
district and putting in some Census blocks and
16
taking out other Census blocks.
So just as an example, can you --
17
18
19
A.
Pardon me.
backward and forward?
MR. SPEAS:
20
21
Can you keep these chairs from going
same problem.
I don't know.
Do you want me to hold you up?
THE WITNESS:
22
I'm having the
Well, I hope that's not your
23
function through the whole deposition.
24
right, I'll live with it.
It's all
(Discussion held off the record.)
25
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 29 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2074 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 209
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
BY MS. EARLS:
2
Q.
So I want to be able to understand what data you
3
had available to you as you were actually putting
4
precincts in or taking precincts out.
What I am going to -- or at least what
5
Chris has done is take out a precinct.
6
7
A.
block.
8
9
I think you meant to say take out or put in a
Q.
Block.
Thank you.
10
So am I right that what you're looking at
11
now, if you were thinking of changing the boundary
12
of Senate District 14, to take out a Census block,
13
that the screen would have given you the
14
information about that proposed change that's shown
15
in the data box on the right-hand side?
16
A.
Well, the data box -- the Pending Changes data box
17
would show you both the characteristics of the
18
pending change and what the new totals would be for
19
all the districts involved.
For instance, if you were adding that to --
20
21
what district?
MS. EARLS:
22
23
to -THE WITNESS:
24
25
What district did you add it
18 -- you would have the new
district in 18 so it would show that information,
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 30 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2075 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 210
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
yes.
1
2
MS. EARLS:
3
THE WITNESS:
We'll make it show that.
It just reversed the
4
positions of the districts in the Pending Changes
5
box.
6
BY MS. EARLS:
7
Q.
So am I right that what we're looking at right now
8
shows the Census block that we're proposing to take
9
out and then the data on the right-hand side shows
10
you how that would impact District 18 and how it
11
would impact District 14?
12
A.
That is correct.
MS. EARLS:
13
Can we mark this as an
exhibit.
14
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 509 was marked for
15
identification.)
16
MS. EARLS:
17
And then similarly, if you can
18
put that Census block back in and show us what it
19
would look like if you were trying to add a precinct,
20
a neighboring Census block.
21
BY MS. EARLS:
22
Q.
So this time we're looking at what the impact on
23
District 14 and District 18 would be if we -- if
24
you decided to extend the boundary of District 14
25
on the left-hand side of the map out to include an
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 31 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2076 Page 211
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
additional Census block; is that right?
1
2
A.
That's correct.
MS. EARLS:
3
Can you mark this as an
exhibit.
4
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 510 was marked for
5
identification.)
6
7
BY MS. EARLS:
8
Q.
So we're now looking at Exhibit 510 showing what
data would be available to you when you're
9
10
considering adding a Census block to the district.
11
So you said that sometimes you would have
12
used this data as your layer but that other times
13
you would use other data; is that right?
14
A.
Yes, and I might scale it differently.
15
Q.
How would you scale it differently?
16
A.
Well, there are different ways to scale it.
I
17
mean, there are various scales that were used.
18
This particular scale that you put has five
19
divisions.
20
more precise.
21
Q.
Were you typically using 10 -- 10 percent and
below, 10 to 20?
22
23
I might want something that is a little
A.
What was your practice?
Mostly I would be using eight different divisions.
24
Sometimes I would be using a different -- I'm
25
sorry.
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You have to go back where you were.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 32 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2077 Page 212
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
A different method, optimal breaks.
1
2
Q.
terms of the scale, the thematic?
3
4
So can you describe what we're looking at now in
A.
Well, now it's running 0 to 3, 3 to 9 and a half, 9
5
and a half to 17, 17 to 26, 26 to 40, 40 to 64, 64
6
to 90 and 90 and above.
7
Q.
Does this represent --
8
A.
But that particular break would depend on the map
that you had up at the time.
9
It wasn't that you
10
started, at least that's my understanding of how
11
the system works.
12
Q.
But does this represent what you typically were
using when you were drawing these districts?
13
14
MR. FARR:
Objection.
15
THE WITNESS:
No, not necessarily.
I may
make my own breaks.
16
17
BY MS. EARLS:
18
Q.
So it just varied from time to time?
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
Is this one of the types of thematics using the
Census data that you would have used?
21
22
A.
I don't usually -- wouldn't usually have used this
23
group of breaks, no.
24
do.
25
of the different thematics so it would depend on
Okay.
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
Depends on what I'm trying to
It's more trouble to do a custom break
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 33 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2078 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 213
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
what's going on.
1
2
Q.
vary depending on what you were trying to do?
3
4
A.
Maptitude has the capacity to vary the thematic
displays quite considerably.
5
6
So you had the capacity to make the color scheme
Q.
So what would you be trying to do if you were using
7
a thematic similar to this one, a thematic based on
8
the voting age any part black data?
9
A.
Generally, something in the neighborhood of 0 to
10
30, 30 to 35, 35 to 40, 40 to 45, 45 to 50, 50 to
11
55, 55 to 60, 60 and above.
Do you want me to tell you how to do it?
12
13
Q.
Yes, please.
14
A.
Okay.
Well, first of all, cancel that and start
15
again.
Okay, now do it.
16
the lower right-hand corner where it says Manual
17
and you can put them in there using a decimal
18
equivalent of the percentage.
19
setting 0 to .3.
Hit the next one.
MS. EARLS:
We can go off the record
briefly.
(Discussion held off the record.)
24
25
Class
get a drink.
22
23
Right there.
I'll let you work that through and I'll go
20
21
Again, go down below in
BY MS. EARLS:
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 34 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2079 Page 214
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, while we were taking a quick break,
2
we worked with our software a bit.
3
looking at now on the screen, is that the kind of
4
thematic that you were setting up that you
5
described before the break with the different
6
percentages in the legend?
7
A.
What we're
That is typical of a thematic I might have used,
yes.
8
MS. EARLS:
9
Can we mark this as
Exhibit 511.
10
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 511 was marked for
11
identification.)
12
13
BY MS. EARLS:
14
Q.
And am I correct -- so Exhibit 511 is what we've
just discussed, a thematic you may have used.
15
Am I correct that the numbers in the box on
16
17
the right-hand side, those don't change based on
18
the thematic?
19
A.
No.
20
Q.
So what we did earlier with adding a precinct --
21
I'm sorry -- adding a Census block or taking out a
22
Census block, that would show the same data on the
23
right-hand side no matter what your color scheme
24
was?
25
A.
I'm sorry, I don't quite -- if you changed it, it
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- Doc. Ex. 2080 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 215
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
wouldn't be the same data.
1
2
Q.
I don't mean change the layer.
I mean change the
3
scale.
4
left-hand side that's giving us whether you have
5
six or eight or ten?
6
A.
Right, the thematic legend would not change, no.
You'd have to change that yourself.
7
8
What do you call it, the legend on the
Q.
But my question -- we can go back through the
exercise of adding a precinct or -- adding a Census
9
10
block or taking a Census block out, but I'm just
11
trying to avoid that by saying it would change --
12
the box on the right would look the same, all we've
13
changed are the colors on the map?
14
A.
The box on the right would show the same pieces of
15
data.
16
as you add and subtract.
17
Q.
The data internally in the box would change
You said that you also used a thematic that showed
political data from time to time; is that right?
18
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
And that would be either election returns or voter
registration data?
21
22
A.
Most likely election returns.
23
Q.
So when you're looking at election returns, I want
24
to understand what you learned at a Census block
25
level.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 36 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2081 Page 216
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
So we're going to load -- is there a
1
2
particular election that would be most useful for
3
you?
4
A.
Typical election we would use is the two-party vote
for president in '08.
5
6
Q.
The general election?
7
A.
Yes.
Let's see.
8
Generally would use 100 times
Obama or Bush divided by Obama plus Bush, not the
9
total vote cast for president.
10
11
Q.
So you're getting a percentage?
12
A.
You're getting a percentage, but it's a percentage
13
of the vote for both Obama and Bush, one or the
14
other of the candidates.
15
MR. FARR:
Do you McCain?
16
THE WITNESS:
17
MR. FARR:
18
THE WITNESS:
What?
Do you mean McCain?
McCain, yes.
Pardon me.
I'm an election behind.
19
MR. FARR:
20
Halfway.
21
BY MS. EARLS:
22
Q.
Can you show us how to do that now?
23
A.
Certainly.
24
Q.
Is that going to take a moment so we should go off
25
the record again?
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 37 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2082 Page 217
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
That's your choice.
2
Q.
We'll just go ahead and let you show us how to do
it.
3
4
A.
Okay.
You're going to select -- well, first of
5
all, we wouldn't do it at the block level anyway
6
because the percentages are the same throughout the
7
VTD except for the anomalies created by rounding.
8
Q.
So when you were drawing this piece of Senate
District 14 drawn at the block level because it's
9
dividing that precinct, correct?
10
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
You would not be -- that thematic would not give
13
you any useful information?
14
MR. FARR:
15
THE WITNESS:
Objection.
Well, if I were not
16
interested in that particular draw in the racial or
17
ethnic information, it would because it would show
18
me what the precinct was like and I might be able
19
to decide whether I wanted to split this precinct
20
or the other precinct based on the political
21
percentage in this precinct or that precinct, but I
22
would still need in many cases the block
23
populations that would show up in order to balance
24
the populations.
MS. EARLS:
25
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
I'm sorry, if you would just
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 38 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2083 Page 218
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
give me a moment.
2
this works.
3
BY MS. EARLS:
4
Q.
I'm trying to understand how
But going back to the precinct that we're looking
5
at now, Precinct 09-03 in Wake county, when you
6
were deciding how to divide this precinct, you
7
didn't have a political data thematic on the block
8
level that would help you decide how to divide
9
Precinct 09-03?
10
A.
No.
11
Q.
We have the -- we can pull up a similar map for the
12
state legislative districts, but I would only want
13
to do that if you did anything significantly
14
different between the House map or the Senate map.
15
So when you were -- we've been looking at the
16
Senate map.
When you were drawing the House map, did
17
you do anything significantly different?
18
19
A.
In that precinct?
20
Q.
Not in that precinct but in drawing the districts
in Wake county or --
21
22
A.
It would depend on which district.
23
Q.
I'm sorry.
24
A.
It would depend on what type of a district was and
25
What would depend on which district?
what I was looking for when I was drawing that
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 39 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2084 Page 219
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
particular district.
1
2
Q.
So --
3
A.
So -- never mind.
4
Q.
Can you give me an example of how -- what you were
5
looking at on the screen would vary depending on
6
which district you were drawing?
7
A.
Again, I might be looking at a city limit line.
8
might be looking at street patterns.
9
looking at incumbent residences.
10
looking at politics.
11
ethnicity.
I
I might be
I might be
I might be looking at race
So the displays could vary depending on
12
13
what I was trying to do and how important it was to
14
have them up.
15
Q.
But the information available to you at the Census
16
block level, which is the level that's shown here
17
in this portion of Senate District 14 and 18, that
18
was only the PL 94 data; is that right?
19
A.
Yes, the 2010 Census Bureau redistricting data set.
20
Q.
Okay.
21
A.
You're welcome.
22
Q.
Did we mark this as an exhibit.
23
Thank you.
I think that's all
I have.
24
MR. FARR:
25
MR. PETERS:
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
What exhibit was the last one?
Exhibit 511.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 40 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2085 Page 220
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
MS. EARLS:
1
We'll show you on the screen.
That's 511.
2
MR. FARR:
3
Okay.
4
BY MS. EARLS:
5
Q.
Thank you, Dr. Hofeller.
6
A.
Are we done with the screen?
7
Q.
Yes, we are.
8
MR. FARR:
9
MS. EARLS:
Can we take a quick break?
Sure.
10
(Brief Recess:
11
MS. EARLS:
12
record.
13
about the exhibits.
10:26 to 10:38 a.m.)
So if we can go back on the
I want to make sure we're all in agreement
So we marked the file that's on the
14
15
computer, the printouts, and I want to make sure
16
you have a chance to mark your copies and agree
17
that they're correct.
18
This is what is 504.
19
MR. FARR:
20
Can we have Tom look at the
original?
21
MS. EARLS:
22
MR. PETERS:
23
MS. EARLS:
24
Sure.
This one is 504?
Right.
And he can bring it up
on the screen there if you want to confirm it.
This is 505.
25
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 41 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2086 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 221
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
MR. FARR:
1
I think just to make sure we
2
don't make a mistake unintentionally, let's put the
3
screen shots up.
Tom, would you look at this and agree, is
4
5
You're ahead of me.
that 504?
THE WITNESS:
6
The first one they did and
7
this is the second one and this is the third one,
8
and assuming they started at 504, that's right.
MR. FARR:
9
So we have 505 and 506.
10
MR. PETERS:
11
THE WITNESS:
12
MS. EARLS:
13
of you.
I don't have 506 yet.
I've got it.
I was trying not to get ahead
There's 505.
There's 506.
14
MR. FARR:
15
MS. EARLS:
16
MR. FARR:
17
MS. EARLS:
18
Then show 509.
19
MR. PETERS:
20
MR. FARR:
21
MS. EARLS:
22
And then this is 511.
23
So are we all in agreement about the
24
Okay.
Then show them 507.
Thank you.
Then show them 508.
Is this 509?
Yes.
510.
exhibit numbers?
MR. FARR:
25
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
Seem to be.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 42 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2087 Page 222
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
MS. EARLS:
1
2
BY MS. EARLS:
3
Q.
Thank you.
The final thing I want to ask you about concerning
4
the map-drawing process of your involvement was if
5
you could describe for us what role you had between
6
the time that the first maps were introduced and
7
the final plans were enacted.
8
9
A.
As is the case in most redistricting, there is a
process of modifications to the map as it goes
10
through the process from first release, I would
11
say, to when it passes, and it was my function to
12
the extent that I was able to look at the maps and
13
see that they were technically correct and to keep
14
track of the changes as they were occurring and to
15
help people make the changes that they wanted to
16
make.
For the plans, I kept what we like to call
17
18
the controlling copy, so that was the map as it
19
stood at that particular moment.
20
off and want to look at something or the Chairman
21
specifically would ask me to look at something, I
22
would create another map, they would look at it.
23
If they wanted it, I would incorporate it back into
24
the main map.
25
there.
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
People might go
If not, it would just stay out
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 43 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2088 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 223
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
MS. EARLS:
Mark this as Exhibit 512.
2
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 512 was marked for
identification.)
3
4
BY MS. EARLS:
5
Q.
If you would take a minute to look at Exhibit 512.
6
A.
(Witness complying.)
7
Q.
Can you tell us what that exhibit is?
8
A.
That's an e-mail, well that's actually two e-mails.
It's an e-mail sent to me by Joel Raupe on
9
10
June 13th and it's a reply, which is a second
11
e-mail, sent from me to Joel with a copy to Dale
12
Oldham sent the following day.
13
Q.
he sending you with the first e-mail?
14
15
Did the first e-mail have an attachment or what was
A.
I can't really tell from this whether there was an
16
attachment or not, so I can't see one way or the
17
other actually.
18
Q.
Well, the text of your --
19
A.
Excuse me.
If it was in my e-mail file, it would
20
have been the -- the original would have been in
21
there, too.
22
23
Q.
The text of your e-mail says, "Attached is the fix
to the file you sent yesterday."
Do you recall getting this file from Joel
24
25
Raupe?
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 44 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2089 Page 224
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
I must have gotten it if I said that.
I wouldn't
2
have said it if I didn't get it, but I don't recall
3
getting it.
4
Q.
you meet with Art Pope?
5
6
A.
I don't know what you describe by "meet with Art
Pope."
7
8
During the redistricting process, at any point did
Q.
If you could be more specific.
Did you have any in-person conversation with Art
Pope about redistricting?
9
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
And when was that conversation?
12
A.
I don't really remember.
Art came in to the
13
redistricting headquarters several times to see
14
what was happening.
15
Q.
And do you recall what Art Pope said to you in any
16
conversation that you had with him regarding
17
redistricting?
18
A.
No, not specifically.
19
Q.
Do you know whether -- the e-mail here has as its
subject NC House with Changes to Wake by Art Pope.
20
Do you recall what changes to Wake he
21
wanted to make?
22
23
A.
No.
24
Q.
And you said that he came in to the headquarters
25
from time to time.
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
Can you give us an idea of how
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 45 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2090 Page 225
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
many conversations you had with him about
2
redistricting?
3
A.
You mean North Carolina redistricting?
4
Q.
Yes.
5
A.
Okay.
6
Q.
Did you have other communications other than
I don't know, two or three maybe.
7
in-person conversations with Art Pope about
8
North Carolina redistricting?
9
A.
Not that I can recall, no.
10
Q.
So just to be clear, the original attachments to
11
this e-mail don't show up in the paper Exhibit 512,
12
but we do have -- your testimony is that if there
13
were attachments, you produced them in discovery
14
and we would have them in the discovery materials?
15
A.
That's my assumption, yes.
16
Q.
Okay.
Thank you.
So I'd like to turn now to your role and
17
activities as an expert witness.
18
Can you tell us what you are -- what your
19
20
understanding is of what you are an expert in for
21
the purposes of this litigation?
22
A.
Redistricting.
23
Q.
The identification of expert witnesses that counsel
24
provided to us identified you as an expert in
25
demography, redistricting and voting behavior, and
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 46 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2091 Page 226
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
I want to ask you about the voting behavior aspect
2
of that.
Do you also have expertise in voting
3
behavior?
4
5
A.
I do.
6
Q.
And can you explain more specifically what aspects
of voting behavior you have expertise in?
7
8
A.
Well, the voting behavior that I've been involved
9
with early in my career, I did voting behavior in
10
terms of campaigning and precinct analysis, voter
11
list work and also later on more specifically
12
voting behavior as it involves building districts.
13
Q.
And so when you say precinct behavior, what do you
mean by that?
14
15
A.
A lot of it was targeting, precinct targeting.
16
Q.
Describe to me how voting behavior impacted your
precinct targeting.
17
18
A.
Well, sort of an axiom that says that past voting
19
behavior is most predictive of future voting
20
behavior.
21
different analyses to try and find different
22
methods, but I think always past behavior is more
23
indicative of future behavior, although it changes
24
over time, but then you have further elections to
25
add in and look at.
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
And a lot of people do a lot of
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 47 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2092 Page 227
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
You then also mentioned more recently having
2
expertise in voting behavior as it relates to
3
redistricting?
4
A.
I've done redistricting for 45 years so I think
5
I've gained a lot of experience on how voting
6
behavior relates to redistricting.
7
Q.
And can you tell me more specifically what you mean
8
about voting behavior as it relates to
9
redistricting?
10
A.
Well, once again, as you're drawing districts,
11
you're trying to gain -- you're trying to predict
12
or to understand how the districts you're drawing
13
will behave, and by doing that you have to look at
14
the data that's available to you and make a
15
decision based on one or two or whatever number of
16
factors you're going to look at.
17
Q.
And typically, then, in looking at voting behavior,
what factor are you looking at?
18
19
A.
Primarily partisan voting behavior.
20
Q.
Have you also -- do you also have expertise in
evaluating racially polarized voting?
21
22
A.
I don't do racially polarized voting studies.
23
Q.
So your voting behavior experience relates to
partisan voting behavior primarily?
24
25
A.
Primarily.
5813 Shawood Drive
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Registration, too, but my experience is
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- Doc. Ex. 2093 Page 228
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
that registration is not as predictive as actual
2
voting behavior.
3
Q.
predictive of party -- not as predictive of what?
4
5
When you say not as predictive, you mean not as
A.
Well, people crossover when they vote.
You have
6
switch voting.
You have crossover voting.
You
7
have a lot of independents who are registered, more
8
actually now than there used to be decades ago.
9
And you really can't predict how they're going to
vote just using registration.
10
So once again, the partisan voting behavior
11
12
for candidates is much more indicative of what you
13
can expect to see in the future.
14
Q.
Your c.v. is attached to what we previously
15
marked -- actually, I think it's attached to a
16
couple of exhibits, but the one in this case is
17
Exhibit 435 which -- do you have -- I can provide
18
you --
19
MR. FARR:
20
MS. EARLS:
21
MR. FARR:
I have it, Anita.
Great.
I've got it.
Thank you.
Do you want him to look at his
resume?
22
MS. EARLS:
23
24
BY MS. EARLS:
25
Q.
Yes, please.
It's one of the exhibits to -- or one of the
5813 Shawood Drive
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- Doc. Ex. 2094 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 229
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
attachments to Exhibit 435.
2
whether any of the cases that you identified where
3
you've participated in lawsuits whether any of
4
those you were testifying about voting behavior.
5
A.
Q.
Well, actually, I'm trying to understand your
expertise and so how you define it.
8
9
Again, it would depend on what you want to define
as voting behavior.
6
7
And my question is
A.
I would be testifying on voting behavior as it
10
pertains to how the districts were constructed and
11
what the expected result would be in the districts.
12
Q.
And that would be partisan voting behavior; is that
right?
13
14
A.
For the most part.
15
Q.
Can you give me an example from your prior cases a
16
case where you testified about partisan voting
17
behavior as it related to how the districts would
18
perform?
19
A.
I'd have to say it's a more integral part of what I
20
do and how I describe the plans that I'm doing.
21
lot of cases normally in light of just analyzing
22
the plans that I was asked to look at and render an
23
opinion on.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
A.
You're welcome.
A
Thank you.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 50 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2095 Page 230
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
So in this case, in your capacity as an expert
2
witness, what analyses were you requested to
3
perform?
4
A.
You know, I'd have to review my affidavit.
5
Q.
We were just looking at it.
6
A.
Primarily I was asked to respond to the affidavit
It's Exhibit 435.
7
of David W. Peterson particularly with regard to
8
the 12th District.
9
Q.
I wanted to ask you a couple of questions about the
10
Chart A that appears on page 7 of your affidavit.
11
And I want to make sure I understand the
12
percentages as they appear in this chart.
It looks like what you're saying is that
13
14
the number one on the left-hand side, that doesn't
15
refer to -- I'll back up.
16
Senate district and several versions, so it's the
17
enacted plan and then three other alternative
18
Senate plans; is that right?
Chart A is about the
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
And the first row, Number 1 doesn't refer to
District Number 1?
21
22
A.
No, it doesn't.
23
Q.
So if I understand it, you took the districts and
ranked them by percentage African-American?
24
25
It's a rank number.
A.
Yes, from high to low.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 51 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2096 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 231
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
So Number 1 refers to the highest, the district in
2
the -- were you sorting those along the enacted
3
plan?
4
A.
No.
They were sorted with the individual plans.
5
Q.
So Number 1 in the 2011 Senate plan is not the same
district as Number 1 in the AFRAM Senate?
6
7
A.
No, it is not.
8
Q.
So let's just look at the 2011 Senate plan.
The
5.61 percent means that the district in that -- in
9
10
the enacted plan that has the highest percentage
11
black voting age population, total black voting age
12
population contained 5.61 percent of the overall
13
total black voting age population in the state?
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
So Number 2 means that when the 10.61 percent means
16
when you take the top two districts in terms of
17
total black voting age population, they comprise
18
10.61 percent of the overall total black voting age
19
population?
20
A.
That's correct.
21
Q.
Then on down to when you take the top 12 districts
22
in the Senate plan ranked by total black voting age
23
population, they comprise 51.88 percent of the
24
state's total black voting age population?
25
A.
Correct.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 52 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2097 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 232
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
In the paragraph -- and I'm really looking at the
2
sentence immediately above the chart, it says,
3
"Appendix A contains a chart which lists all the
4
relevant information and all these plans for all
5
the districts in the state."
6
And my question to you is whether I'm
7
correct that Appendix A is actually either not
8
attached or -- well, we have a map that's labeled
9
as Appendix 1, but we don't have an Appendix A.
10
A.
Okay.
11
Q.
Is something mislabeled?
Am I missing it?
Is it
there?
12
13
A.
No, I don't see it attached there.
14
Q.
But that is a chart that you prepared that you
could provide to us?
15
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
Similarly, if you would look at page 10 through 11,
18
there's Chart B which has the same data for the
19
House plan, but it's not a chart of all 120 House
20
districts.
21
A.
No.
22
Q.
Is there an Appendix B that has the data for all
the districts?
23
24
25
A.
I'm sure I have such a chart, but I don't know that
I listed it as an appendix.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 53 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2098 Page 233
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
But you could provide that chart to us?
2
A.
I could provide a chart, yes.
I'll have to see if
3
I have it, but even if I didn't have it, I could
4
probably make it, but that would be something new.
5
Q.
Well, let's look at paragraph 38 on page 15.
The
6
last sentence of that paragraph says, Appendix C
7
contains a chart which lists all the relevant
8
information on all these plans for all the
9
districts in the state referring to the
Congressional plan.
10
Am I right that we also don't have
11
Appendix C?
12
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
But that's a chart you could provide to us?
15
A.
Yes, be happy to do it.
16
Q.
Thank you.
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 513 was marked for
17
identification.)
18
19
BY MS. EARLS:
20
Q.
21
I've marked your second affidavit at Exhibit 513.
Can you -MR. PETERS:
22
23
hear.
MR. FARR:
24
25
I'm sorry, Anita, I couldn't
513.
BY MS. EARLS:
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 54 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2099 Page 234
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
prepared for this case?
2
3
Am I correct this is the second affidavit you
A.
I believe I prepared something.
Let me read the
affidavit.
4
Do you want me to read it all the way
5
through?
6
7
Q.
Take whatever time you need, please.
8
A.
Okay.
MR. FARR:
9
While he's reading that, I am
10
going to step out for a minute.
11
back.
12
BY MS. EARLS:
13
Q.
I'll be right
Have you had an adequate opportunity to review
Exhibit 513?
14
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
Is that the second affidavit that you provided in
this case?
17
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
Are there any other analyses that you've done of
20
any data relating to redistricting in
21
North Carolina in your capacity as an expert
22
witness other than what's presented in these two
23
affidavits, that is, your first affidavit, which is
24
Exhibit 435, and this second affidavit, which is
25
Exhibit 513?
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- Doc. Ex. 2100 Page 235
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
Not in connection with being an expert witness, no.
2
Q.
Are there any other affidavits or reports that
3
you've written about North Carolina's redistricting
4
in any capacity?
5
A.
I'm sorry, either -- say that again.
6
Q.
Are there any other reports -- affidavits or
7
reports that you've written about North Carolina's
8
2010 redistricting?
9
A.
Okay.
There are no more affidavits.
10
Q.
Okay.
Are there other reports?
11
A.
There are no reports per se.
12
Q.
What --
13
A.
Attorney-client work product.
14
Q.
Without telling me what's in the documents, can you
15
identify what document you're referring to that
16
would be covered by the privilege?
17
A.
documents.
18
19
20
Then I would be telling you what's in the
Q.
Well, I'm trying to understand.
attorney.
MR. FARR:
21
22
There's stuff he's looking at
to help establish our legal argument in the briefs.
23
MS. EARLS:
24
THE WITNESS:
25
You're not an
Okay.
Yes, I am not an attorney.
BY MS. EARLS:
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 56 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2101 Page 236
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
But your counsel has clarified what you're
referring to, so thank you.
2
I want to ask you to look at another
3
4
exhibit that's in the exhibit book.
5
they're right there.
6
Exhibit 432.
I think
If you would look at
7
A.
Yes.
8
Q.
So Exhibit 432 is the set of invoices for your work
assisting the Chairman of the North Carolina
9
General Assembly Redistricting Committees.
10
Could you look at page 4, which the date of
11
that invoice is December 7, 2011.
12
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
The next to the last sentence in the description of
15
the work says, "Preparation of chart showing split
16
precinct percentages and examination of enacted
17
plans to document reasons for precinct splitting."
Can you tell me what the chart showing
18
split precinct percentages refers to?
19
20
A.
The precincts that were split by the plans.
21
Q.
So the chart just -- because I couldn't find a
chart that seemed to be that.
22
23
24
A.
Well, again, attorney-client work product.
It's
something the attorneys asked me to do.
MS. EARLS:
25
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
I'm sorry.
Can I have a
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 57 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2102 Page 237
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
minute?
1
(Discussion held off the record.)
2
3
BY MS. EARLS:
4
Q.
But let me understand.
When you say a chart
5
showing split precinct percentages, what does the
6
percentage -- Maptitude will print out a chart of
7
all the precincts that are split, but I don't
8
understand what the split precinct percentages is.
9
A.
Well, I'm sorry.
I'm trying to make it clear.
10
It's the percentage of the precinct that's on one
11
side of the line and the percentage of the precinct
12
on the other side of the line with data about the
13
characteristics of those precincts.
14
Q.
And that's data that you prepared.
Who did you
provide that to?
15
16
A.
Who did I what?
17
Q.
Who did you give it to?
18
A.
Mr. Farr.
19
Q.
So you didn't -- did you show it to the Chairman,
that's Rucho, or Chairman Lewis?
20
21
A.
No.
22
Q.
And you haven't produced it in discovery in this
litigation?
23
24
A.
No.
25
Q.
Did you rely on that information in coming to any
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 58 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2103 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 238
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
of the opinions expressed in your -- in either of
2
your affidavits?
3
A.
Not really, no.
4
Q.
So you didn't use that information in any way
in --
5
6
A.
Not in my affidavits, no.
7
Q.
Let's look at what you said about Dr. Arrington's
8
affidavit.
And am I correct -- so this is
9
paragraph 9 of Exhibit 513.
Am I understanding you to say that --
10
11
A.
Could I read it?
12
Q.
Oh, please, yes.
13
A.
Okay.
about the paragraph, please.
14
15
So now you want to ask me the question again
Q.
My question about this paragraph is whether the
16
opinions you expressed as an expert in that
17
paragraph were informed in any way by the analysis
18
that you did concerning the split precinct
19
percentages?
20
A.
No.
21
Q.
So the sentence that says -- this is maybe the next
22
to last sentence.
23
splitting VTD lines is often necessary in order to
24
create TBVAP districts or indeed even some
25
districts with a total black VAP with 42 percent or
5813 Shawood Drive
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"He also fails to mention that
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 59 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2104 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 239
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
higher," that that opinion did not relate to or was
2
not informed in any way by the chart you prepared
3
on split precinct percentages?
4
A.
No.
5
Q.
In describing the chart, you said you were looking
6
at what percentage of the precinct was in one
7
district -- when a precinct is split, what
8
percentage of the precinct is in one district and
9
what percentage is in another district?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
And when you say percentage, were you talking
12
percentage of total population or you weren't
13
talking about land area?
MR. FARR:
14
I think we're getting into area
15
of land where he helped us to evaluate the plan to
16
make our legal arguments, so I am going to tell him
17
not to answer these questions.
MS. EARLS:
18
19
So are you instructing him not
to tell us how he did his analysis?
MR. FARR:
20
Yes, because it's been asked
21
for and requested to help us develop our legal
22
arguments.
23
MS. EARLS:
24
provide that document to us?
MR. FARR:
25
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
Are you instructing him not to
Yes.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 60 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2105 Page 240
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
MS. EARLS:
1
I'll just note for the record
2
that we disagree and believe that we are entitled
3
to that.
MR. FARR:
4
We'll turn over that analysis
5
as soon as you give us the analysis that your folks
6
made to support the allegations in the complaint
7
about the percentage of the population and divided
8
precincts.
MS. EARLS:
9
I think we have.
I actually
10
think we have given you that analysis.
11
know that I have it -- I don't have our discovery
12
production with us, but I believe we have, but I
13
will move on.
14
BY MS. EARLS:
15
Q.
I don't
This Exhibit 513 is dated February 8, 2012.
Have
16
you done any additional analysis of data relating
17
to redistricting in North Carolina since the date
18
of this affidavit?
19
A.
I'm sorry.
Which exhibit are you --
20
Q.
513.
21
A.
I'm sorry, Court Exhibit 513.
The documents have
exhibits in them too, so.
22
23
Q.
Yes.
I apologize.
24
A.
Have I done any other work?
25
Q.
Yes.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 61 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2106 Page 241
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
Yes.
2
Q.
What additional analysis have you done?
3
A.
Again, that's work that the attorneys have asked me
to do and that I've done for them.
4
5
Q.
Well, if you're going to testify as an expert and
6
express opinions about North Carolina's
7
redistricting, we're entitled to know what analysis
8
you've done and what informs those opinions.
MR. FARR:
9
We agree with that, but what
10
he's done since then at this point in time is to
11
inform us on how to make our legal arguments in the
12
case.
13
BY MS. EARLS:
14
Q.
So are there any other opinions that you've
15
formulated about North Carolina's redistricting
16
other than the opinions expressed in your first and
17
second affidavit?
MR. FARR:
18
19
BY MS. EARLS:
20
Q.
A.
25
I think that depends on how the strategy of the
case unfolds.
23
24
That you expect to testify to as an expert in this
case.
21
22
That he's going to --
Q.
We're entitled to know what opinions you're going
to express regarding North Carolina's
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- Doc. Ex. 2107 Page 242
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
redistricting, and if they're not contained in your
2
first or second affidavit, I need to know what they
3
are.
4
A.
Again -MR. FARR:
5
We agree with that.
If that
happens, you'll have a chance to ask Dr. Hofeller.
6
7
MS. EARLS:
8
MR. FARR:
9
MS. EARLS:
10
BY MS. EARLS:
11
Q.
Additional questions?
Yes.
Okay.
Thank you.
Are you presently performing any additional
12
analyses relating to your expert opinions in this
13
case?
14
A.
Not at the present, no.
15
Q.
I'm going to ask you about the deposition -- the
first part of our deposition on June 28th.
16
Prior to that day, what did you do to
17
prepare for the deposition?
18
19
A.
I read or reread some of the materials that had
20
been submitted.
21
that had been involved in the redistricting.
22
a lot of looking and re-looking and sort of
23
reconnecting myself with a lot of the plans.
24
had been a long time and I didn't really remember
25
exactly what was in them.
5813 Shawood Drive
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I reviewed some of the documents
I did
It
Mainly the usual
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 63 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2108 Page 243
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
preparation that one would make for a deposition.
1
2
Q.
Did you talk with anyone else other than counsel in
the course of preparing for your deposition?
3
4
A.
Not that I recall, no.
5
Q.
And then in preparation for the continuation of
your deposition today, what did you do to prepare?
6
7
A.
anybody but counsel.
8
9
Well, much the same, and I did not speak with
Q.
And when you say "much the same," you mean you
10
reviewed -- can you describe what you did before
11
today?
12
A.
Reviewed some affidavits, reviewed some papers,
13
again, looked at the map.
14
two months.
15
things going on in my life right now and I had to
16
just reacquaint myself and sort of get back into
17
the North Carolina process.
identification.)
19
20
BY MS. EARLS:
21
Q.
I'm handing you what's been marked as Exhibit 514.
Can you identify what this is?
22
A.
It's an article that I wrote for the RNC to put in
one of their publications.
24
25
So, again, I have a lot of other
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 514 was marked for
18
23
It had been now, what,
Q.
And can I just -- the copy that you have, does it
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 64 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2109 Page 244
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
show the maps in color on the second page?
2
have given you the wrong copy.
I may
3
A.
It does.
4
Q.
Do you remember when you wrote this article?
5
A.
Not specifically, but it was before the election of
2010.
6
7
Q.
election in 2010?
8
9
So it was in 2010 and sometime before the November
A.
No, I didn't say that.
I said it was before the
2010 election.
10
11
Q.
Do you know if you wrote it in 2010?
12
A.
I don't specifically know the date I wrote it.
It
13
could actually very well have been in 2010, but I
14
can't state that for a fact.
15
back and look at the document file and find out
16
what the date is.
17
Q.
The website where we found this document had a date
of May 10, 2010.
18
I would have to go
19
A.
Sure.
20
Q.
-- right?
Would that possibly be --
21
All right.
Thank you.
22
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 515 was marked for
identification.)
23
24
BY MS. EARLS:
25
Q.
Could you take a look at Exhibit 515 and tell me
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 65 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2110 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 245
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
what this is.
1
2
A.
This is a PowerPoint that I have given several
3
times before the National Conference of State
4
Legislators with Kimball Brace, who is roughly a
5
counterpart on the other side of the partisan
6
aisle, to explain some of the factors surrounding
7
compactness, what is it, how is it measured, what's
8
it good for, and it is primarily to get people
9
thinking about it and kind of jog some memories and
make people pay attention to it when they need to.
10
11
Q.
When you say people, what -- can you --
12
A.
Normally the audience, is that what you're trying
to say?
13
14
Q.
Yes, the audience.
15
A.
The NCSL meeting has legislators, a lot of staff
16
people, attorneys and other people interested in
17
redistricting.
18
committee, and they hold meetings, and they're
19
usually about two days long, and this is a
20
presentation that I've made probably once or twice
21
a decade.
22
Q.
They have their own redistricting
Is the presentation -- the presentation itself
23
isn't dated, but this particular presentation on
24
compactness was from the website of -- the NCSL
25
website appeared to have been done in 2009.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 66 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2111 Page 246
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
that sound about right to you?
1
2
A.
Q.
Am I correct it was done in anticipation of the
2010 redistricting cycle?
5
6
It was certainly done
after the 2000 redistricting cycle.
3
4
That could very well be.
A.
Yes.
7
MR. FARR:
This one?
8
THE WITNESS:
Well, parts of it are kind
of held over from the 2000 cycle.
9
10
MR. FARR:
11
THE WITNESS:
12
BY MS. EARLS:
13
Q.
Oh, I know.
Oh, I understand.
It's a dedication.
And I want to direct your attention to the slides,
14
and the pages aren't numbered, but this is about
15
the fourth page in.
16
page, and the top one is State of Tennessee and the
17
bottom says "What the Democrats Have Done Before."
There's two slides on the
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
And following that are "Here are some other great
20
examples" and then there's several pages of
21
examples of districts.
22
In your presentation, are you using these
23
as examples of districts that are not in your view
24
geographically compact?
25
A.
No, not specifically.
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We're just using them as
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 67 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2112 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 247
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
demonstrations of what people have drawn.
1
2
Q.
And then there's a slide toward the middle of the
3
packet and you have -- maybe the easiest way to
4
find it is to find the Shaw versus Reno slides.
5
A.
North Carolina 1993?
6
Q.
Yes.
And then I'm looking actually at three pages
over from that.
7
8
MR. PETERS:
9
MS. EARLS:
Behind.
Behind it, yes.
THE WITNESS:
10
11
BY MS. EARLS:
12
Q.
Yes.
"Where does that leave us?
And then the slide below it, there's three
13
slides with "Where does that leave us?"
14
go to the page one over from where you are right
15
now.
16
A.
One over which way?
17
Q.
Behind.
One more.
I want to
So the top slide says "Where
18
does this leave us?"
19
does compactness fit?"
The bottom one says "Where
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
And you have a bullet point that says, "Be careful
22
of the compactness standards you adopt.
23
come to bite you on the rear in court."
Can you explain sort of the advice that
24
25
They may
you're giving?
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 68 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2113 Page 248
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
I think the statement really speaks for itself.
2
you adopt a specific standard, you'll be held to
3
it.
4
Is that it?
5
MS. EARLS:
We have one
more.
6
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 516 was marked for
7
identification.)
8
9
For this one.
If
BY MS. EARLS:
10
Q.
I am showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 516.
11
A.
I think it looks pretty much like the one you gave
me before.
12
13
Q.
Did you mean to give me that?
The difference is the first one had 58 slides and
14
was in 2009 and this one has 63 slides and was done
15
in 2010.
16
A.
Okay.
17
Q.
I wanted to ask you about the summary slide which
18
is on the last page -- well, the last page is a
19
single slide, but the last double page "In
20
Summary."
21
slide.
Could you take a minute and look at that
22
A.
(Witness complying.)
23
Q.
So you say Compactness Measures, the third bullet
24
point, "Are one of the Expert Witnesses' best
25
friends."
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 69 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2114 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 249
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
What does that mean?
1
2
A.
opine on it.
3
4
It means that expert witnesses have been paid to
Q.
You've also written an article on compactness, and
5
if you look at Exhibit 429, which is the first
6
exhibit from the last session, look at page 2 of
7
that affidavit that's Exhibit 429 and the second
8
paragraph and you're referencing there an article
9
that you've coauthored on measuring compactness.
10
A.
I'm sorry.
11
Q.
Paragraph 2.
12
A.
Okay.
13
Q.
No.
Which paragraph?
Are you through with this?
I want to ask you -- the next exhibit I want
to give you which is 517.
14
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 517 was marked for
15
identification.)
16
17
BY MS. EARLS:
18
Q.
Is Exhibit 517 the article you're referring to in
paragraph 2 of Exhibit 429?
19
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
And you say in paragraph 2 that this article is
22
still considered to be a seminal study on measures
23
of compactness for legislative -- for Congressional
24
legislative and local representative districts.
25
So does that mean that you still stand
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 70 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2115 Page 250
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
behind the statements and findings in the article
2
that's now Exhibit 517?
3
MR. PETERS:
4
THE WITNESS:
Object to the form.
That article was written by
5
four people and it was written in 1990 or before
6
and there have been other articles that have been
7
written and there have been a lot more districts
8
drawn, and so I guess I would have to say you would
9
have to point out a specific statement to me you're
10
interested in and I would tell you whether I still
11
feel exactly the same way about it.
12
BY MS. EARLS:
13
Q.
Have you written any seminal articles on measures
of compactness since 1990?
14
15
A.
No.
16
Q.
And in terms of the general topic of the article,
17
that is, compactness as a test for partisan and
18
racial gerrymandering, is there anything in
19
particular that has substantially changed since
20
1990 that would impact the views that you've
21
expressed in this article?
22
A.
I don't think so.
Of course, we have better
23
mathematical processes available to us that have
24
changed a few of the ways that the measurements can
25
actually be done as, for instance, you see in
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 71 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2116 Page 251
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
Maptitude.
1
2
Q.
The other statement that I want to ask you about in
3
Exhibit 429, in paragraphs 5, 6 and 7 you're
4
reporting on compactness scores; is that correct?
5
A.
Yes.
6
Q.
And I just want to clarify.
I think it's in the
7
context of the affidavit.
Is the Reock test the
8
test that you were using to generate those scores?
9
A.
I'm not sure I remember which test I used.
10
Q.
Well, if you look at paragraph 4, you're talking
about the Reock test.
11
12
A.
Okay.
Well, then, probably yes.
13
Q.
So the opinions that you expressed in this
14
affidavit in the Mississippi case were based on
15
the -- on just one compactness test?
16
A.
Yes.
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 518 was marked for
17
identification.)
18
19
BY MS. EARLS:
20
Q.
Can you identify what Exhibit 518 is.
21
A.
Exhibit 518 is a report that I submitted in some
22
litigation in Nassau County in the -- regarding the
23
redistricting of the county council districts in
24
that county.
25
Q.
I'm going to ask you a question about paragraph 35
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 72 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2117 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 252
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
in that affidavit.
1
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 519 was marked for
2
identification.)
3
MR. FARR:
4
Anita, I'm sorry, would you let
him read this for just a second.
5
6
MS. EARLS:
7
(Discussion held off the record.)
8
BY MS. EARLS:
9
Q.
Sure.
So you have in front of you what's been marked as
10
Exhibit 519, and I'm asking you whether 519 is the
11
map that you're referring to in paragraph 35 of
12
Exhibit 518.
13
A.
Yes.
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 520 was marked for
14
identification.)
15
16
BY MS. EARLS:
17
Q.
18
You're looking at what the court reporter has
marked as Exhibit 520.
And just for counsel's reference, I believe
19
20
that a version of this was previously marked in
21
these depositions as Exhibit 394, but it may not be
22
exactly the same.
MR. FARR:
23
We'll take your word for it,
24
Anita.
25
making notes on the left-hand side of it.
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
I think this one doesn't have the place for
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 73 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2118 Page 253
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
MS. EARLS:
1
2
BY MS. EARLS:
3
Q.
But I would like to ask you, Dr. Hofeller, if you
can identify what this Exhibit is, 520.
4
5
Exactly.
A.
It's a presentation I gave on the last day of the
6
NCSL meeting in Providence, Rhode Island, on
7
September 28, 2010.
8
Q.
And again, was the audience similar to the audience
you described for the earlier PowerPoint
9
presentations?
10
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
And is it fair to say you were trying to give
13
people who would be involved in the redistricting
14
process in the states the benefit of your
15
experience, your years of experience in
16
redistricting?
17
A.
As you know, redistricting, for the most part, is
18
very seasonal, only happens once a decade, and part
19
of the purpose of these sessions is to get the
20
audience thinking about redistricting and
21
considering the factors they need to consider.
This PowerPoint is designed to do that in
22
23
such a way that keeps their attention and gets them
24
thinking about those factors that they have to
25
consider.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 74 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2119 Page 254
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
But it was based on your experience?
2
A.
Yes.
3
Q.
And you were giving your best general advice as to
how to go about drawing redistricting plans?
4
5
A.
I wouldn't characterize it as giving my best
6
general advice, but really getting them used to the
7
considerations that they had to be thinking about.
8
If I were counseling them privately, I might have
9
said some things differently.
10
Q.
Well, for example, let's -- I'd like you to turn to
11
the slide that's one of the Legal Perils slides
12
maybe two-thirds of the way back.
13
the slide that says Washington Post.
It's right after
So the top point says, "Don't get caught in
14
15
'criteria hell.'" And the third bullet says, "Make
16
sure you can live by your own criteria BEFORE you
17
state them publicly."
Can you explain what advice you were
18
19
giving legislators, legislative staff, people who
20
would be involved in redistricting with this slide.
21
A.
Where?
22
Q.
Well --
23
A.
No.
24
Q.
When you were giving this presentation.
25
A.
When I was giving this presentation in general?
I mean where?
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 75 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2120 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 255
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
Yes.
2
A.
I would say that I was saying that if you state
3
some criteria, you may find yourself not being able
4
to live by them.
5
applicable to that in the North Carolina context,
6
but just be careful what you promise you're going
7
to do.
8
Q.
And why do you say it's not really applicable in
the North Carolina context?
9
10
Of course, that's not really
A.
Well, because the Stephenson court has given us a
11
rather specific outline of how we're to treat the
12
redistricting process in the state.
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 521 was marked for
13
identification.)
14
15
BY MS. EARLS:
16
Q.
You have in front of you what's been marked as
17
Exhibit 521.
This is a few excerpts from a very
18
long transcript of your deposition in the Shaw
19
versus Hunt case which was taken on Wednesday,
20
December 8, 1993, and I just want to ask you a
21
couple of questions about some of the statements
22
that you made in that deposition.
23
A.
Okay.
I'm not sure how well I can read this.
24
Q.
Because it's so small?
25
A.
Yes, because it's so small.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 76 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2121 Page 256
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
I apologize.
2
A.
It's my fault.
3
Q.
I will read portions and just let me know if you
I need to get new glasses.
need time to review it.
4
5
MR. FARR:
6
MS. EARLS:
7
MR. FARR:
8
THE WITNESS:
a while.
9
521.
Are you reading it, Tom?
I am reading.
It will take
There's a lot here.
MS. EARLS:
10
What number is this one?
Well, I can tell you what I want
to ask you about.
11
MR. FARR:
12
Why don't you ask him the
13
question and if he needs to read the whole thing at
14
that point in time he will.
15
to.
16
BY MS. EARLS:
17
Q.
Maybe he won't have
The first question I want to ask is about the
18
testimony you gave which is on page 128 of the
19
transcript.
20
was trying to save paper, but the page 128 is
21
across from the cover of the deposition transcript.
So in this -- and I do apologize.
I
And beginning at line 10, your testimony is
22
23
"If one sees a lot of county splitting going on,
24
particularly in a congressional plan where the
25
districts are very large, one's attention is
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- Doc. Ex. 2122 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 257
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
immediately drawn to the question of why this is
2
happening.
3
another line of investigation."
So a lot of county splitting leads to
My question is whether there's any reason
4
5
that that observation would be different in 2010
6
than it was in 1993.
7
A.
No, I think that's one of the factors that you'd be
8
looking at if you were examining a plan de novo, so
9
to speak.
10
Q.
Then the next page has a page 150 on the right and
11
page 151 on the left, and I want to ask you about
12
the testimony that begins with the question at
13
line 9 on page 150 and Tiare Smiley is asking you:
14
"Do you have an opinion yourself as a redistricter
15
what percentage of minorities need to be in a
16
district to create a majority minority district?"
And then your answer is that "My experience
17
18
has taught me over 20 years that it is unwise to
19
deal in absolutes.
20
late '70s, a lot of people were talking about the
21
65 percent rule.
22
factors:
23
everywhere, and two, I think the Voting Rights Act
24
was starting to have a positive effect and so the
25
percentages needed were decreasing in many places.
5813 Shawood Drive
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When we all started out in the
And it became apparent that two
One, the situation is different
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- Doc. Ex. 2123 Page 258
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
So it is really a situation by situation analysis."
1
And then I have other questions about the
2
3
rest of it, but particularly about that answer.
4
there any reason why that's different in 2010 than
5
today -- I mean, than it was in 1993?
6
A.
Well, as a general statement, I don't think it
7
would be markedly different.
8
is an entity unto itself.
9
have Strickland then, too.
Q.
A.
That makes a little
How in your view does Strickland impact this
I don't think it has much impact on that opinion,
actually.
14
15
Of course, we didn't
opinion?
12
13
I mean, each district
different equation.
10
11
Is
Q.
It's a general statement.
Then the next part I want to ask you about is on
16
page 152, which is the next page over.
17
you say, "Well, it is my opinion that in the
18
drawing of the districts, the 1st and in the 12th
19
District, that the overriding and only criteria of
20
the districts as a whole was race and that they
21
were drawn for the express purpose of creating
22
minority black districts and that was the reason
23
that they were drawn and that that particular
24
criteria was used to the exclusion of all other
25
criteria, at least legitimate criteria."
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And then you're asked what you base the
1
2
conclusion on and you continue, "Well, I base it on
3
the fact that there could be no other reason why a
4
district such as that was drawn and that the data
5
speak for -- the demographic speak for that
6
conclusion, that there is simply no reason why
7
anybody would draw contorted districts such as
8
these, outlandishly contorted districts, other than
9
to achieve that goal.
"And so in drawing my plan, I was trying to
10
11
show the court with a less extreme focus on that
12
one criteria might result in."
13
And again, the same question is whether
14
there's anything different about how you analyze
15
whether or not race was the express purpose of
16
creating minority black districts that's changed
17
since 1993.
18
MR. FARR:
Objection to the form.
19
You can answer.
20
THE WITNESS:
Well, of course, this was in
21
the context of an entirely different set of
22
districts than we're looking at now, and you really
23
have to have the districts before you and both the
24
districts created and the districts that I drew in
25
order to really answer that question.
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Page 260
August 10, 2012
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1
BY MS. EARLS:
2
Q.
Right.
But you're expressing an opinion there that
3
the demographic data is what illustrated to you
4
that the districts were drawn solely on the basis
5
of race, and that's what I'm trying to get at.
Is it also true in this round of
6
7
redistricting that that would be the basis for
8
determining whether race was the express purpose of
9
creating a district?
10
A.
No.
11
Q.
So what has changed?
12
A.
Well, I think -- if my memory serves me correctly,
13
the difference is as a result of this lawsuit there
14
was a new set -- a new district drawn for the 12th
15
which was more based on political factors, or at
16
least it was purported to be based on political
17
factors.
And so I think you have to look at the
18
19
motives as to why people drew the districts the way
20
they drew them.
21
entirely on the demographics.
22
look at the whole context of the plan.
23
Q.
So I don't think you could base it
I think you have to
And in drawing the Congressional redistricting plan
24
this time around, were you -- did you take into
25
account the experience that you had as an expert
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Page 261
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Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
witness in the Shaw versus Hunt litigation?
1
2
A.
Well, a lot of jurisprudence has happened since
3
then, so certainly my experience in this case would
4
still be there and I'd still be thinking of those
5
past plans, but again, we're dealing with a
6
different set of legal standards than we are --
7
than we were then.
8
Q.
So what, then, is your understanding -- as you were
drawing the maps, you had to decide what would
9
10
be -- maps that would comply or you were at least
11
instructed by the chairs to comply with the law.
12
A.
I was just going to say that the policy decisions
13
were made by the two chairmen when you're talking
14
in relationship to the Congressional map and the
15
way they wanted the plan to be designed and what
16
factors were going to go into it, so it wasn't
17
really my choice.
18
Q.
So particularly on the question of whether or not
19
the 1st and the 12th Congressional Districts in the
20
enacted plan -- the 2011 enacted plan would comply
21
with the requirements of Shaw versus Reno and all
22
subsequent cases, is it your testimony that you
23
didn't have any role in that judgment, that that
24
was totally up to the Chairs?
25
A.
Again, the Chairs set the policy of how the
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Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
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1
districts would be drawn.
2
opinion, I might express it, but they made the
3
decisions and they were pretty clear about what
4
they wanted.
5
Q.
Certainly if I had an
When you say they were clear about what they
wanted, in what regard were they clear?
6
7
A.
What they wanted the districts to look like.
8
Q.
And so you're saying it was their judgment that
determined whether or not what they wanted was in
9
10
their view compliant with Shaw versus Reno and
11
subsequent cases, that you didn't -- you didn't
12
have any role in informing that decision?
13
A.
counsel given to them by their attorneys.
14
15
I'm sure they were informed by the advice and
Q.
So the opinions that you -- the opinions that you
16
expressed in the Shaw -- in your testimony in the
17
Shaw versus Hunt litigation about geographic
18
compactness and the ways in which the districts at
19
issue in that case were not geographically compact
20
and therefore racial gerrymanders did not play a
21
role in advising the chairmen, Chairmen Rucho and
22
Lewis, about the Congressional districts that you
23
were drawing for this round of redistricting?
24
MR. FARR:
25
THE WITNESS:
5813 Shawood Drive
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Objection to form.
That's a very long question.
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Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
Can we divide that up?
1
2
BY MS. EARLS:
3
Q.
Well, am I right that you expressed opinions in the
4
Shaw versus Hunt litigation regarding the
5
compactness of the 1st and 12th Congressional
6
Districts; is that correct?
7
A.
No, I don't think I really expressed opinions with
regard to the compactness of the districts.
8
Remember, we're talking about an entire
9
10
Congressional map.
11
two districts just existing all by themselves.
12
Q.
We're not just talking about
So what's your recollection about your testimony
13
regarding compactness in the Shaw versus Hunt
14
litigation?
15
A.
I'm not
retracting my testimony that I gave there.
16
17
Well, I think it speaks for itself.
Q.
And then my question is -- and I realize this is
18
just excerpts and that we have an -- there is an
19
entire deposition as well as trial testimony in
20
that case, but it was your opinion in that case
21
that the District 1 and 12 were racial
22
gerrymanders, right?
I mean, we just read it.
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
And my question to you, then, is:
25
Did that opinion
influence the judgments about whether or not the
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1
districts that you were drawing for this round of
2
redistricting complied with the federal
3
constitution?
4
A.
Well, I believe these did and those didn't, but you
5
could spend a whole day, in fact, a whole series of
6
litigation, and we did, considering all those
7
districts and how they all interacted together and
8
what was there.
So, yes, the districts that were there and
9
10
what happened and what judgments the court made
11
certainly are things I know about, but once again,
12
I have to reiterate that the policy decisions were
13
made by the two chairmen.
14
Q.
I don't have any more questions.
15
A.
Okay.
16
MS. EARLS:
17
to break for lunch.
18
MR. SPEAS:
Thank you.
This is probably a good time
And I'm not sure how long it
will take.
19
(Lunch Recess:
20
12:06 to 12:58 p.m.)
EXAMINATION
21
22
BY MR. SPEAS:
23
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, I have a few questions for you.
24
same rules apply that applied with regard to
25
Ms. Earls' examination.
5813 Shawood Drive
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The
If you need a break, let
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Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
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1
me know.
I would emphasize if I ask a question
2
that's not clear, ask me to clarify it.
3
that I will ask a question that is not clear is
4
fairly high.
The chance
5
A.
Is what?
6
Q.
Is fairly high.
7
A.
Okay.
8
Q.
Couple of clarifying points to begin with:
You are
a partner in an entity called Geographic
9
Strategies, I believe.
10
11
A.
I am.
12
Q.
And at your first -- the initial deposition you
13
testified there are three principals in that
14
entity.
You are one of them, correct?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
Mr. Oldham is one?
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
Who's the third?
19
A.
Michael Wild.
20
Q.
And Michael Wild works at RNC?
21
A.
He does now, yes.
22
Q.
In the redistricting area at least cyclicly?
23
A.
Actually, now he's working more for a department
that's called Strategic Planning.
24
25
Q.
And Geographic Strategies is incorporated in
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Page 266
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
South Carolina.
1
2
A.
It is.
3
Q.
And I believe it was incorporated in 2011; is that
correct?
4
5
A.
Yes.
6
Q.
And Mr. Oldham is the registered agent for
Geographic Strategies?
7
8
A.
I don't rightly know who the registered agent is.
9
Q.
And I think we never asked you where you actually
reside.
10
Where do you reside?
11
A.
I reside at -- you want the full address?
12
Q.
Please.
13
A.
7119 Marine Drive, Alexandria, Virginia, 22307.
14
Q.
And how long have you resided there?
15
A.
Since January of 1998.
16
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, if you would put Exhibit 513 in front
17
of you for a moment.
18
is your second affidavit.
MR. FARR:
19
It should be over there.
It
Mr. Farr has found is.
You can use this one if you
want.
20
21
BY MR. SPEAS:
22
Q.
I have a question about paragraph 2 of that
23
affidavit.
24
more specifically, I have a question about the
25
sentence appearing on page 2 near the end of that
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- Doc. Ex. 2132 Page 267
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
paragraph where you state, and I quote, "The intent
2
of the WCP is met when a legislative redistricting
3
plans combines counties in the smallest numbers
4
necessary to create districts within a single
5
county or county group that comply with the one
6
person, one vote standards requiring each district
7
to be within plus or minus five percent of the
8
ideal population number."
Did I read that correctly?
9
10
A.
You did.
11
Q.
And you wrote that?
12
A.
I did.
13
Q.
And that is the standard that you applied in
14
performing your task for Senator Rucho and
15
Representative Lewis in drawing the House and
16
Senate plans?
17
A.
I did.
18
Q.
And I want to make sure I understand how that
19
standard works.
If a plan created 26 groups and
20
another plan created 28 groups, the plan with 28
21
groups would better comply with your standard than
22
the plan with 26 groups?
23
MR. PETERS:
24
MR. FARR:
25
MR. PETERS:
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
Objection.
Objection.
Objection to form.
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- Doc. Ex. 2133 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 268
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
THE WITNESS:
1
My standard is that first
2
you must create all the county groupings containing
3
one county no matter how many districts are in that
4
one county, and then you must create next the
5
maximum number of groupings containing two counties
6
and then three counties.
7
BY MR. SPEAS:
8
Q.
And then four counties?
9
A.
And then four counties and then five counties and
so on.
10
11
Q.
And at the end you total it all up?
12
A.
No.
You just -- well, you total up the number of
13
groups in each category, one-county groups,
14
two-county groups, three-county groups.
15
Q.
Okay.
So let me just --
16
A.
And if you --
17
Q.
Pardon me.
18
A.
Go ahead.
19
Q.
If you have a plan that creates the same number of
No, I'll just let you ask the question.
20
one-county groups -- not a very good phrase --
21
two-county groups and three-county groups but one
22
plan creates one more four-county group than the
23
other plan, the one that creates the additional
24
four-county group is the plan that better complies
25
with the W --
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- Doc. Ex. 2134 Page 269
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
If I understand you correctly, that would be yes.
2
Q.
Now, let me ask you this:
You talked a little bit
3
on about Exhibit 520.
520 is the presentation that
4
you made to I think the National Conference of
5
State Legislators in 2010.
It's 520.
Now, as I understood your testimony, you've
6
7
given presentations like this on a number of
8
occasions.
9
A.
I have.
10
Q.
And these presentations reflect your cumulative
experience in the redistricting arena?
11
12
A.
The part I want to present in the particular
presentation, yes.
13
14
Q.
And you've been at it for about 30 plus years now.
15
A.
Well, since 1965.
16
Q.
So that's a pretty good while.
Now, did Senator Rucho and Representative
17
18
Lewis attend this presentation or did they attend a
19
presentation like this?
20
A.
audience or not.
21
22
I can't really say whether they were in the
Q.
Do you know whether they attended one of your
presentations on this particular topic?
23
24
A.
No.
25
Q.
When you were retained by them to assist them, did
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Page 270
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1
you give them the benefit of your hard-earned
2
experiences as set forth in Exhibit 520?
3
A.
No.
4
Q.
What did you give them the benefit of based on all
your many years experience?
5
6
A.
I guess the benefit I gave them was helping them to
7
craft the best set of redistricting plans for the
8
State of North Carolina that could be drawn in
9
accordance with the criteria laid down by the
10
Stephenson court and the Voting Rights Act and in
11
accordance with their wishes as to how the plan
12
should be architected.
13
Q.
Did you tell them not to use e-mail?
14
A.
I don't remember whether I specifically told them
15
not to use e-mail.
16
advise everybody to be careful about their e-mails.
17
Not exactly radical advice.
18
Q.
If it comes up, I usually
Were you careful in the use of e-mail when you were
performing your task?
19
20
A.
I hope so.
21
Q.
And consistent with that practice, did you avoid
22
e-mailing Senator Rucho and Representative Lewis
23
with your advice?
24
A.
Most of the time.
25
Q.
So your advice to them was always oral with perhaps
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Page 271
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Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
a few exceptions?
1
2
MR. FARR:
Objection to the form.
3
You can answer it if you want to.
4
THE WITNESS:
You know, it kind of be a
5
little bit flippant to me to be telling Senator
6
Rucho and Representative Lewis what to do and how
7
to handle their communications.
8
BY MR. SPEAS:
9
Q.
be sure to protect their communications and --
10
11
A.
I don't recall.
I might have.
I would -- it would
not have been bad advice, I don't think.
12
13
So you don't recall telling them that they should
Q.
Did you tell them, as you told the folks on
14
September 28, 2010, that e-mails are the tool of
15
the devil?
16
A.
I don't know specifically if I made that statement.
17
Q.
Did you tell them don't create stupid
irregularities in boundaries?
18
19
A.
No, not specifically.
20
Q.
But that's advice you have given to folks over the
years, correct, in public?
21
22
A.
It's in the PowerPoint.
23
Q.
Did you tell them make the plan as neat as
possible?
24
25
A.
Did I tell them?
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- Doc. Ex. 2137 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 272
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
Yes.
2
A.
No.
3
Q.
So you testified on examination by Ms. Earls that
4
the policy decisions here were made by
5
Representative Lewis and Senator Rucho, correct?
6
A.
That's correct.
7
Q.
What were those policy decisions?
8
A.
The policy decisions were, first of all, to follow
the criteria laid down by the Stephenson court, and
9
10
that was to -- as I think they saw it and I agreed
11
with it was a two-track approach to determine what
12
minority districts could be created and determine
13
what county groupings could be created and to
14
harmonize the two requirements in the context of
15
the Voting Rights Act.
16
Q.
made by them?
17
18
Were those -- were there other policy decisions
A.
Well, there were numerous policy decisions made
19
throughout the whole process, when the plans would
20
be done, when they wanted them to be done, how the
21
databases would be built, what kind of software
22
would be used, if there was a disagreement between
23
legislators as to where a line should be, that was
24
their policy choice.
There were a number of issues, and it was
25
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Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
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1
my job to make sure that they were informed of what
2
decisions had to be made and that they made the
3
decisions.
4
Q.
Now, Dr. Hofeller, I want to talk to you about some
5
of the districts that are at issue here.
And let
6
me tell you in advance that what I am going to do
7
is present you a series of maps of particular
8
districts in the House plan and in the Senate plan,
9
and I will present you with the original map and if
10
it was a VRA district.
If not, in the case of the
11
Rucho plans, Rucho Senate 1, and then I want to ask
12
you questions about how you came to draw that and
13
the differences among the various versions of the
14
maps of these particular districts.
So let's begin by looking at Senate
15
16
District 4.
And I'll ask the court reporter to
17
mark this as Exhibit 522.
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 522 was marked for
18
identification.)
19
20
BY MR. SPEAS:
21
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, Exhibit 522 consists of three pages.
22
It is a map of District 4 in the Rucho Senate VRA
23
Districts, a map of District 4 in Rucho Senate 1
24
and a map of District 4 in Rucho Senate 2.
Do you recognize these maps?
25
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 94 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2139 Page 274
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
Yes, although the third map is a little dim.
2
Q.
It is a little dim.
3
A.
So I don't know exactly where that boundary goes.
4
Q.
Did you draw each of these maps?
5
A.
I think -- yes, I drew this map.
6
Q.
Now, let me ask you first about the Rucho Senate
VRA Districts version of District 4.
7
Did you confer with anybody who resided
8
within that proposed district prior to drawing that
9
district?
10
11
A.
Not that I recollect.
12
Q.
Did you confer with anybody who resided in the
13
counties encompassed within that district prior to
14
drawing the district?
15
A.
Not that I can recall.
16
Q.
Did you confer with Senator Rucho prior -- about
this district prior to drawing the district?
17
18
A.
presented to him for his approval.
19
20
I think the original version of this district was
Q.
Do you recall when the original version of this
district was presented to him for his approval?
21
22
A.
Not exactly, no.
23
Q.
Did you receive instructions from Senator Rucho
24
before drawing this district as to how this
25
district -- as to how this district was to be
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 95 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2140 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 275
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
drawn?
1
2
A.
The only instruction that he would have given me
3
regarding this and many of the other districts is
4
that I was to follow Stephenson -- the Stephenson
5
criteria of county groupings and the Voting Rights
6
Act.
7
Q.
Did you present to Senator Rucho more than one
8
version of District 4 to your memory or is this the
9
only version of District 4 that you ever presented
to him?
10
11
A.
I don't remember.
12
Q.
I have examined the three maps here, and it appears
13
to me that there were few, if any, changes in
14
District 4 from the time it was first presented in
15
the VRA plan through its enactment in Rucho
16
Senate 2.
Would you agree with that?
17
A.
That's what it appears to be to me.
18
Q.
Now, did you recommend this district to Senator
Rucho?
19
20
A.
recommend.
21
22
Q.
Did you tell him this was a good district that met
his goals?
23
24
I don't quite understand what you mean by
A.
I don't think specifically so.
I think the plan was presented as a general
25
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- Doc. Ex. 2141 Page 276
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Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
plan, and he looked at the plan and some things he
2
liked better than other things.
3
Q.
And did you tell Senator Rucho this is a compact
district?
4
5
A.
I don't think we discussed compactness.
6
Q.
What standard -- as I understand your testimony
7
earlier, to the extent you considered compactness
8
in drawing these districts, you determined
9
compactness based on the so-called intraocular
test; is that correct?
10
11
MR. FARR:
Objection to form.
12
THE WITNESS:
I think what I said was we
13
did not -- we did not use the system, the Maptitude
14
system, to output any of the compactness reports so
15
that all that was there was the shape of the
16
districts and you looked at them.
You can credit Bernie Grofman with the
17
intraocular test.
18
19
BY MR. SPEAS:
20
Q.
I understand we can.
Did you advise Senator Rucho that this
21
district was compact from your perspective?
22
23
A.
No.
24
Q.
Did he ask you if this district was compact from
25
your perspective?
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- Doc. Ex. 2142 Page 277
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
No.
2
Q.
This is a VRA district, correct, one of the Voting
Rights districts?
3
4
A.
I guess I don't know how you define VRA.
5
Q.
This is one of the districts you drew in accordance
6
with Senator Rucho's direction to draw districts at
7
the 50 percent plus one?
8
A.
Yes.
9
Q.
Did you divide any precincts in drawing this
district?
10
You can't tell from these maps.
11
A.
You can't tell from these maps, sorry.
12
Q.
I'll ask -- I can ask you about that with some
13
other maps that I have that will actually display
14
the precincts, but let me ask you this question
15
generally:
16
districts to determine when to divide a precinct or
17
VTD and when not to divide a precinct or VTD?
18
A.
What standard did I use in drawing any districts in
any situation?
19
20
What standard did you apply in drawing
Q.
Yes.
I want to know when you -- what standard you
21
applied in deciding to divide a precinct and when
22
not to divide a precinct generally.
23
A.
Generally.
24
Q.
Yes.
25
A.
Okay.
Well, obviously, one of the first reasons
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- Doc. Ex. 2143 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 278
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
you might divide a precinct is to balance
2
populations.
Another standard you might use to divide
3
4
precincts is in some instances you might divide it
5
to follow a city line.
Another reason you might want to divide is
6
to satisfy a request by an incumbent.
7
Another reason you might divide it is to
8
allow for the creation of a minority district.
9
10
Q.
Okay.
11
A.
That's all I can think of at the moment.
12
Q.
Did you confer with any incumbent before drawing
any of these districts?
13
14
A.
Sometimes.
Sometimes not.
15
Q.
Let's look at the next exhibit, which would be
Exhibit 523.
16
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 523 was marked for
17
identification.)
18
19
BY MR. SPEAS:
20
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, I've showed you Exhibit 523 which
21
consists of three pages.
22
appears in Rucho Senate VRA Districts, District 5
23
as it appears in Rucho Senate 1 and District 5 as
24
it appears in Rucho Senate 2.
25
A.
It is District 5 as it
I might want to trade you copies here because I
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 99 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2144 Page 279
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
have writing on this.
1
2
Q.
I'm sorry.
Thank you.
It will make it easier for
me to ask my questions.
3
Do these maps appear to be the maps of
4
5
District 5 as it appeared in these three
6
different --
7
A.
Yes.
8
Q.
Did you draw these districts?
9
A.
I don't rightly remember whether I drew this
10
district as it was or not, but I certainly was
11
aware as it's been drawn.
12
Q.
If you didn't draw it, who would have drawn it?
13
A.
Well, maybe John Morgan would have drawn it.
Maybe
14
he would have drawn it and I looked at it and said
15
it would be better this way or that way.
16
remember how the process unfolded.
17
Q.
I don't
But you were involved in the drawing of the
district?
18
19
A.
Yes, that would be a correct statement.
20
Q.
Did you confer with anybody in this proposed
district before drawing this district?
21
22
A.
No.
23
Q.
Did you present this district to Senator Rucho for
24
his approval prior to its inclusion in the Rucho
25
Senate VRA Districts plan?
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 100 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2145 Page 280
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
Yes.
2
Q.
And when did you do that?
3
A.
Probably just before the plan became that plan.
4
Q.
And did you inform him that this is a compact
district?
5
6
A.
Again, I don't believe we discussed compactness.
7
Q.
Do you ever recall speaking with Senator Rucho at
8
any point in time with respect to whether any
9
district -- Senate district was compact or not?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
When did you do that?
12
A.
Well, we had a discussion about the Wilmington
13
district.
14
districts.
15
Q.
You might have that in your group of
That was proposed at one point.
And the Wilmington district is the district that
was in the VRA plan but not in the later plans?
16
17
A.
That's correct.
18
Q.
And it was abandoned?
19
A.
I guess you could term it that way.
It's your
word.
20
21
Q.
And was that in the House plan or the Senate plan?
22
A.
I believe there was a district in the House plan
and a district in the Senate plan.
23
24
Q.
And why was it abandoned?
25
A.
I wouldn't characterize it as abandoned.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 101 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2146 Page 281
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
just deleted from the plan.
1
2
Q.
Why was it deleted?
3
A.
Well, because -- the House district was deleted
4
because there was a lot of objection made to it,
5
and I don't think in the case of the House district
6
that Representative Lewis was particularly in favor
7
of that district and he made the decision that it
8
should be deleted.
9
true with Senator Rucho.
He just didn't feel that
district should be left in the plan.
10
11
And I think mostly the same was
Q.
Did he delete it -- did you have any discussion
12
with him about the compactness of that district in
13
that plan?
14
A.
He thought it was pretty oddly shaped.
15
Q.
What did you think?
16
A.
I thought it was pretty oddly shaped.
17
Q.
Did you advise him it was not compact?
18
A.
I don't think we really said whether or not it was
19
compact.
20
like it and he didn't want it there and I
21
concurred.
22
difference because, you know, Senator Rucho, you
23
know, what he wants to do you'll do.
24
25
Q.
That wasn't the language.
He just didn't
Not that it would have made any
Going back to Exhibit 523, I believe your testimony
was -- let me just make sure I understand it -- you
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- Doc. Ex. 2147 Page 282
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
do not recall any conversation with Senator Rucho
2
about the compactness of this plan, this district?
3
A.
Not specifically compactness.
4
Q.
In your judgment, is this a compact district?
5
A.
I think in the context of North Carolina it's
acceptably compact.
6
7
Q.
conclusion that this is acceptably compact?
8
9
What standards do you apply in reaching the
A.
Well, I look at two things:
One is what has shown
10
up before in North Carolina in terms of districts,
11
and two, I was informed by some of the other plans
12
that were submitted to the legislature as to what
13
districts looked like.
14
Q.
Is this a VRA district?
15
A.
Yes, it's one of the districts.
majority-minority district.
16
17
It's a
Q.
In drawing your districts, to the extent you
18
considered compactness, did you apply a different
19
compactness standard in drawing a district -- a VRA
20
district than in drawing other districts?
21
MR. FARR:
Objection to form.
22
THE WITNESS:
You know, I don't really
think we applied --
23
24
BY MR. SPEAS:
25
Q.
Any standard?
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 103 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2148 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 283
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
Compactness standards.
What had to be done in order to follow the
2
3
dictates of Stephenson court was that one was
4
really obligated to determine what minority
5
districts had to be drawn to, again, harmonize them
6
with the county grouping criteria, and once the
7
groups were determined and the minority districts
8
were determined, then they had to be harmonized
9
with relationship to one person, one vote, and then
10
the other districts had to be put in essentially
11
around them.
12
Q.
In drawing District 5, did you make any effort to
13
keep any county other than Greene County whole in
14
this district?
15
A.
To the best of my knowledge, you couldn't have
16
drawn this as a minority district without doing it
17
as it was.
18
Q.
You've testified about your understanding of the
19
requirements of Stephenson with respect to
20
grouping.
21
different question:
In drawing your districts, did you make an
22
effort to keep counties whole?
23
24
25
Let me ask you this, which is a
A.
Well, with relation to the Stephenson criteria,
with the exception of minority districts, there are
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August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
certain rules you have to follow, such as you can't
2
have double transits across county lines and where
3
in a county grouping you can keep a county whole,
4
you should do that.
5
Q.
So if you have a grouping, you should, as you
6
understand the Stephenson decision, make an effort
7
to keep as many counties within that grouping whole
8
as you can; is that right?
MR. FARR:
9
Objection to the form.
10
THE WITNESS:
11
MR. FARR:
12
THE WITNESS:
I'm sorry.
I just objected to the form.
Okay.
Let me give you an
13
example.
14
have two districts and one county is larger than
15
the other county, you would have to make the
16
division in the larger county.
17
BY MR. SPEAS:
18
Q.
If you have a two-county grouping and you
What about a three-county district, three-county
cluster?
19
20
A.
Depends on the population sizes of the counties.
21
Q.
So did you or did you not make an effort to keep
22
counties whole as you were drawing your maps, your
23
districts?
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
And that effort was as you've described it?
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- Doc. Ex. 2150 Page 285
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
Yes.
2
Q.
Looking at Exhibit 523, it appears to me that with
3
minor changes that the District 5 was enacted as it
4
was originally proposed in Rucho Senate VRA
5
Districts.
6
A.
Again, it's a little faint on the third page, but I
would agree with you on that.
7
8
Am I correct?
Q.
Now, let's mark this as Exhibit 524.
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 524 was marked for
9
identification.)
10
11
BY MR. SPEAS:
12
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, I've put in front of you Exhibit 524
13
which is a copy of a map of District 7 as it
14
appeared in Rucho Senate 1 and as it was enacted in
15
Rucho Senate 2.
Do you recognize these maps or this
16
district?
17
18
A.
I do.
19
MR. FARR:
20
MR. SPEAS:
What district is this?
Seven.
21
BY MR. SPEAS:
22
Q.
This is not a VRA district, is it?
23
A.
It's actually the remaining portion of the
24
four-county grouping in which the minority district
25
was created.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 106 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2151 Page 286
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
Is District 7 compact in your -- from your
perspective?
2
MR. PETERS:
3
Object to the form.
4
BY MR. SPEAS:
5
Q.
From your perspective, is it compact?
6
A.
In the North Carolina context, yes.
It's the only
7
way it could have been drawn anyway if you accept
8
the other district.
9
Q.
If you accept the other district and you accept the
four-county grouping, correct?
10
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
So within this county grouping of four counties,
13
given your obligation under the directions from
14
Senator Rucho to draw a VRA district at 50 percent
15
plus one, this is what you get?
16
A.
That's true.
17
Q.
Now, District 7 -- to my eye anyway, District 7 did
18
not change from the point it was presented in Rucho
19
Senate 1 and enacted in Rucho Senate 2.
20
agree with that?
5 didn't change.
Would you
21
A.
Yes.
7 didn't change.
22
Q.
And did you confer with anybody in this district
before drawing this map?
23
24
A.
No.
25
Q.
And just am I correct that you did not confer with
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- Doc. Ex. 2152 Page 287
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
any citizens residing in any of the districts that
2
you drew prior to the time you drew the districts?
3
A.
It was not my job to do that.
That was the job of
4
the chairman of the committee and the other
5
legislators in the committee.
6
Q.
So the answer is you did not confer with anybody in
7
any of these districts prior to drawing these
8
districts?
9
A.
No.
10
Q.
Okay.
Just yes or no.
Thank you.
Now, before drawing this district, did you
11
12
confer with any senator about this district other
13
than Senator Rucho?
14
A.
Not that I recall.
15
Q.
Did you give any -- did you make any determination
16
as to whether or not it was possible in this
17
four-county grouping to keep all the counties
18
whole?
19
A.
You couldn't keep all the counties whole.
It's not
20
possible mathematically to keep all the counties
21
whole.
22
Q.
In this four-county cluster?
23
A.
Right.
24
Q.
Did you look to see whether it would be possible to
25
keep the counties whole?
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 108 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2153 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 288
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
No, because -- no.
2
Q.
Okay.
Let's look at Exhibit 525.
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 525 was marked for
3
identification.)
4
5
BY MR. SPEAS:
6
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, Exhibit 525 is a three-page exhibit
7
consisting of a map of District 14 as it appeared
8
in Rucho Senate VRA District, Rucho Senate 1 and as
9
finally enacted.
Did you draw this district?
10
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
Now, this map does -- from this map you can
determine where VTDs are divided, correct?
13
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
And there are a number of VTDs divided in each
version of this district, correct?
16
17
MR. PETERS:
18
THE WITNESS:
19
BY MR. SPEAS:
20
Q.
Object to the form.
Yes.
And what was your purpose -- what goal were you
21
accomplishing or trying to accomplish in dividing
22
these precincts, VTDs?
23
A.
In this particular district?
24
Q.
Yes.
25
A.
To create a majority-minority district.
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- Doc. Ex. 2154 Page 289
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
Now, if you compare this district as it first
2
appeared in Rucho Senate VRA Districts and as
3
enacted, the district changes in the area of
4
Precincts 10-02 and 9-01, am I correct -- and
5
10-04?
6
district changes from Senate Rucho VRA to Rucho
7
Senate 2, correct?
8
A.
The appendage at the right side of the
Well, it actually changes from Rucho VRA to
Senate 1.
9
Senate 1 and 2 are pretty much the same.
10
Q.
What was the reason for that change?
11
A.
The primary reason for that was the district
12
populations within Wake were not balanced and we
13
wished to balance those populations without losing
14
our VRA district.
15
Q.
So Rucho Senate VRA District 14, was it within plus
or minus five percent as originally drawn?
16
17
A.
All the districts were --
18
Q.
But as it was first drawn, it was within plus or
minus five percent?
19
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
Then you revised it.
22
A.
To make its population more in line with the other
districts in that one-county grouping.
23
24
Help me to understand why.
Q.
To avoid a Larios problem?
MR. FARR:
25
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
Objection to form.
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- Doc. Ex. 2155 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 290
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
You can answer it if you want to or if you
1
can.
2
THE WITNESS:
3
I don't think it really
constituted a Larios issue.
4
5
BY MR. SPEAS:
6
Q.
But the change that was made in this district from
7
the VRA version to the Rucho Senate 1 version was
8
made for the purpose of bringing the population
9
more in line with other districts in Wake county?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
In making that change, though, you did maintain the
12
50 percent plus one VRA standard that you had been
13
instructed to maintain by Senator Rucho?
14
A.
That's true.
15
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, I want to now show you Exhibit 526
which is Senate District 21.
16
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 526 was marked for
17
identification.)
18
19
BY MR. SPEAS:
20
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, is Exhibit 526 a map of District 21
21
as it appeared in Rucho Senate VRA, Rucho Senate 1
22
and Rucho Senate 2?
23
A.
I believe so.
24
Q.
Did you draw this map?
25
A.
Well, there are actually three maps.
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- Doc. Ex. 2156 Page 291
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
Did you draw each of the maps?
2
A.
No.
3
Q.
Who drew them?
4
A.
I believe I drew the first map.
The second and
third maps were drawn by Mr. Morgan.
5
6
Q.
And in drawing the first map, what was your goal?
7
A.
Well, once again, to draw a majority-minority
district.
8
9
Q.
And in drawing this district, you divided a number
of precincts, correct?
10
11
MR. FARR:
12
You can answer the question.
13
THE WITNESS:
14
BY MR. SPEAS:
15
Q.
Objection.
Yes.
And in dividing -- you divided those precincts in
16
order to achieve your goal of drawing a 50 percent
17
plus one district?
18
A.
That's correct.
19
Q.
And did you make any determination that this
district was compact?
20
21
A.
believe it's acceptably compact.
22
23
Once again, within the North Carolina context, I
Q.
Now, looking at Rucho Senate 1, the map of Rucho
24
Senate 1, it changes in one -- significantly Hoke
25
county is now a part of it.
5813 Shawood Drive
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Otherwise, the part
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- Doc. Ex. 2157 Page 292
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
within Cumberland county looks remarkably like
2
Rucho Senate VRA; is that correct?
3
A.
That's your description.
4
Q.
Would you disagree?
5
A.
It's similar.
6
Q.
This was drawn by Mr. Morgan?
7
A.
Yes.
8
Q.
Did you review it?
9
A.
I reviewed it, yes.
mind.
10
At this point in the -- never
Go ahead.
11
Q.
Go ahead.
12
A.
No, I'm not going ahead.
13
Q.
Why did Mr. Morgan alter Rucho Senate VRA
District 21 from the way you had drawn it?
14
15
A.
Well, my understanding was a desire to bring Hoke
16
county in combination with Cumberland county
17
because it was a VRA county, Section 5 county, and
18
that policy decision was made by the Chairman to
19
make a draw of that nature rather than containing
20
the district entirely within Cumberland county.
21
Q.
Did Mr. Morgan recommend to Senator Rucho that
22
District 21 be drawn as illustrated in Rucho
23
Senate 1?
24
25
A.
I think you would have to talk to Mr. Morgan to
find out what he did or did not recommend.
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- Doc. Ex. 2158 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 293
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
And do you know whether in drawing this District 21
2
Mr. Morgan complied with Senator Rucho's goal to
3
draw this as a district -- a VRA district with more
4
than 50 percent black VAP?
5
A.
I know that was Senator Rucho's policy.
6
Q.
And in drawing this district, precincts had to be
divided?
7
8
A.
Yes.
9
Q.
And those precincts had to be divided in order to
achieve the 50-percent-plus-one direction?
10
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
Now, the version of Rucho Senate -- of District 21
13
in Rucho Senate 1 is essentially identical to
14
Senate District 21 as enacted, correct?
15
A.
Appears to be so, yes.
16
Q.
Now, let me ask the court reporter to mark this as
Exhibit 527.
17
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 527 was marked for
18
identification.)
19
20
BY MR. SPEAS:
21
Q.
527 consists of two maps.
One is a map of
22
District 19 as it appeared in Rucho Senate 1 and
23
secondly a map of District 19 as it appeared in
24
Rucho Senate 2.
25
A.
Am I correct?
Appear to be so, yes.
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- Doc. Ex. 2159 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 294
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
District 19?
2
3
Did you draw the Rucho Senate 1 version of
A.
No, but I testified that I didn't draw the
4
District 21 in Rucho Senate 1, and this is just the
5
rest of the county grouping.
6
Q.
So this District 19 is a consequence of
District 21?
7
8
A.
That is correct.
9
Q.
That is the entire explanation for its shape and
location?
10
11
MR. FARR:
Objection.
12
THE WITNESS:
13
MR. SPEAS:
14
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 528 was marked for
It is.
Let's mark this as Exhibit 528.
identification.)
15
16
BY MR. SPEAS:
17
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, Exhibit 528 is a map of District 20
18
as it appeared in Rucho Senate VRA, Rucho Senate 1
19
and Rucho Senate 2.
Did you draw each of the versions of this
20
District 21?
21
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
And did you present it to Senator Rucho?
24
A.
I presented everything to Senator Rucho.
25
Q.
Did Rucho sign off on your version of District 20?
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- Doc. Ex. 2160 Page 295
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
He signed off on this version, yes.
2
Q.
Do you recall him suggesting any change in any -in District 20?
3
4
A.
No.
5
Q.
And in District 20 a large number of precincts are
split in Durham.
6
7
A.
Yes.
MR. FARR:
8
9
10
Objection.
BY MR. SPEAS:
Q.
And in the Durham county portion of District 20 is
oddly shaped?
11
12
MR. FARR:
Objection.
13
THE WITNESS:
That's your description,
yes.
14
15
BY MR. SPEAS:
16
Q.
And is it oddly shaped in order to achieve Senator
17
Rucho's direction to draw districts at 50 percent
18
plus one black VAP?
19
MR. FARR:
20
MR. PETERS:
21
THE WITNESS:
22
BY MR. SPEAS:
23
Q.
Objection.
Objection.
Yes.
And are the precincts split in District 20 in order
24
to achieve Senator Rucho's goal of drawing a
25
district at 50 percent plus one?
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- Doc. Ex. 2161 Page 296
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
Yes again.
MR. SPEAS:
2
Let's mark this as
Exhibit 529.
3
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 529 was marked for
4
identification.)
5
6
BY MR. SPEAS:
7
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, Exhibit 529 is a collection of three
8
maps of District 28 as it appeared in Rucho Senate
9
VRA, Rucho Senate 1 and Rucho Senate 2.
Did you draw that district?
10
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
And you drew that district in order to achieve
13
Senator Rucho's goal of drawing districts at
14
50 percent plus one?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
And this district contains divided precincts?
17
A.
Some, yes.
18
Q.
And the precincts were divided in order to allow
19
you to achieve the goal of drawing it at 50 percent
20
plus one?
21
A.
Yes.
If my memory serves me, there might have been
22
an incumbency involved, but I'm not sure that my
23
recollection is correct.
24
Q.
Is District 28 oddly shaped?
MR. FARR:
25
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
Objection.
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- Doc. Ex. 2162 Page 297
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
THE WITNESS:
Not in my judgment, no.
2
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 530 was marked for
identification.)
3
4
BY MR. SPEAS:
5
Q.
Exhibit 530 is a map -- maps of District 32.
6
Exhibit 530, Dr. Hofeller, is a set of three maps
7
of District 32 in Forsyth county.
8
Did you draw these maps?
9
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Now, if you examine the Rucho Senate VRA version of
11
District 32, you will observe, as best I can tell,
12
only one precinct that's split.
13
in the upper left.
It's precinct 032
14
A.
I see, yes.
15
Q.
And if you will compare that with exhibit to the
16
Rucho Senate 1 version, you will see that Rucho
17
Senate 1 splits many, many precincts.
18
correct?
19
MR. FARR:
20
THE WITNESS:
Am I
Object to the form.
I don't think "many, many"
is a term of accuracy.
21
22
BY MR. SPEAS:
23
Q.
Well, it's close enough.
24
MR. FARR:
25
the first version.
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We'll agree it splits more than
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 118 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2163 Page 298
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
BY MR. SPEAS:
2
Q.
3
Tell me, please, why the large number of precincts
that were split in this Rucho Senate 1 were split?
4
MR. PETERS:
5
MR. FARR:
Objection.
Go ahead.
Unless we tell you
6
not to answer, we're saying we don't like the way
7
Eddie asked the question.
8
really matter all the much at the end of the day,
9
but go ahead.
THE WITNESS:
10
Frankly, it doesn't
We had an issue with the
11
Forsyth county district and that was that
12
particularly when we looked at the SCSJ plan -- am
13
I characterizing it correctly?
MS. EARLS:
14
15
(Shaking head from side to
side.)
16
MR. FARR:
17
THE WITNESS:
18
AFRAM.
The AFRAM plan.
I'll try to
do that.
The drafters of the AFRAM plan had a much
19
20
easier job to create the Forsyth district because
21
they didn't follow Stephenson and they ended up
22
with a county grouping which had a lower
23
average -- significantly lower average district
24
population for this grouping, and this was an
25
attempt to match their percentages in the context
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- Doc. Ex. 2164 Page 299
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
of a district that had to be much larger population
2
wise.
3
BY MR. SPEAS:
4
Q.
So would it be accurate, Dr. Hofeller, that these
5
precincts that are split in the Rucho Senate 1
6
version of District 32 are split for the purpose of
7
increasing the black population in the district?
8
A.
the last answer.
9
10
Q.
And in Rucho Senate VRA District 32, was Senator
Garrou included in this district?
11
12
Well, yes, in accordance with the goals I stated in
A.
I don't have a map of that before me, do I?
do.
13
I'm sorry.
You know, I don't really know where the
14
senator is.
15
16
Oh, I
Q.
Were you instructed at any point to draw the
17
district to exclude Senator Rucho -- Senator Garrou
18
from this district?
19
A.
No.
20
Q.
Did you draw it to exclude Senator Garrou from this
district?
21
22
A.
No.
23
Q.
There has been testimony and exhibits in this case
24
to the effect, as I recall it, that the racially
25
polarized voting analysis of this district would
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- Doc. Ex. 2165 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 300
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
not support the drawing of a minority district.
1
2
Were you involved in any such discussions?
3
MR. PETERS:
4
THE WITNESS:
Object to the form.
No, I wouldn't say I was.
5
was more interested in what the facts were on the
6
ground.
7
BY MR. SPEAS:
8
Q.
What were the facts on the ground?
9
A.
Well, what could be drawn and what couldn't be
drawn.
10
11
Q.
Did Senator Rucho instruct you to revise Rucho
Senate VRA?
12
13
A.
Not specifically, no.
14
Q.
Did you revise --
15
A.
But he knew we were going to do it.
16
Q.
How did he know you were going to do it?
17
A.
Because Senator Rucho was informed of everything
that was happening in the plans.
18
19
Q.
What did you tell him with regard to your
revision --
20
21
I
A.
We told him that we wanted to raise the percentage,
22
even though we couldn't get above 50 percent, to
23
match the standard that had been given to us by
24
other plans that had been presented and that we had
25
to change it in order to do that and get that
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 121 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2166 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 301
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
percentage higher.
1
2
Q.
And the only way to do that was to divide a bunch
of precincts?
3
4
A.
Yes.
5
Q.
At any point in time did Senator Rucho direct you
6
to lower the black voting age population in any
7
district to conform to alternative plans that had
8
been presented?
9
A.
You mean in any district in the state --
10
Q.
Yes.
11
A.
-- or any VRA district?
12
Q.
Any VRA district.
13
A.
Okay.
14
Q.
Any other district --
15
A.
Well, except, of course, the district in
No, not to my recollection.
New Hanover which was eliminated.
16
17
Q.
Abandoned?
18
A.
Abandoned, drawn out of the map, whatever.
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 531 was marked for
19
identification.)
20
21
BY MR. SPEAS:
22
Q.
Exhibit 531, Dr. Hofeller, is three maps of
District 38 in Mecklenburg county.
23
Did you draw this district --
24
25
A.
Yes.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 122 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2167 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 302
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
-- or these maps?
2
A.
Yes.
3
Q.
And did you draw this district to comply with
4
Senator Rucho's directions to draw districts at
5
50 percent plus one?
6
A.
Yes.
7
Q.
And is that the reason precincts are divided in
this plan?
8
9
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Let me show you another document which we will mark
as Exhibit 532.
11
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 532 was marked for
12
identification.)
13
14
BY MR. SPEAS:
15
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, Exhibit 532 is three maps of
16
District 40 as it appeared in the various Rucho
17
Senate plans.
Did you draw this district?
18
19
A.
I did.
20
Q.
Did you draw it to achieve the 50-percent-plus-one
direction from Senator Rucho?
21
22
A.
I did.
23
Q.
Now, one of Senator Rucho's goals as you have
24
testified, or at least as I understand it, was to
25
achieve some level of proportionality in
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- Doc. Ex. 2168 Page 303
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
representation in the General Assembly for African
2
American citizens; is that correct?
3
A.
Yes.
4
Q.
Is this one of the districts drawn for that
purpose?
5
6
MR. FARR:
Objection.
7
You can answer the question.
8
THE WITNESS:
Well, that was the purpose
of the entire map, yes.
9
10
BY MR. SPEAS:
11
Q.
Under the old map there was one VRA district in
12
Mecklenburg county.
Now under the enacted map
13
there are two VRA districts.
14
A.
That's correct.
15
Q.
Would it be correct that either District 38 or
16
District 40 was drawn pursuant to Senator Rucho's
17
direction to achieve some level of proportionality?
18
MR. FARR:
Objection.
19
THE WITNESS:
I think it was also drawn
because it was clear that the district was there.
20
21
BY MR. SPEAS:
22
Q.
Now, the prior plan had eight districts that had --
23
the new plan had two more districts characterized
24
as VRA districts than the old plan, correct?
MR. FARR:
25
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
Objection to form.
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- Doc. Ex. 2169 Page 304
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Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
THE WITNESS:
1
2
BY MR. SPEAS:
3
Q.
And where were those two additional districts
drawn?
4
5
I believe so, yes.
A.
I believe there was an additional district in the
6
northeast and there was an additional district in
7
Mecklenburg.
8
Q.
additional northeastern district?
9
10
Referring back to Exhibit 522, is District 4 the
A.
I don't think that you can say any particular
district is the new district.
11
You had to -- the state had to be regrouped
12
13
in accordance with Stephenson, and the first
14
directive in one -- the first directive in
15
Stephenson was to see what VRA districts could be
16
drawn.
It was fairly easy to understand that two
17
18
majority-minority VRA Senate districts could be
19
drawn in Mecklenburg and a new district could be
20
added in the northeast, but then, of course, you
21
had to rectify it with the county grouping criteria
22
and they interplay and iterate.
23
Q.
just a minute.
24
25
Would you put Exhibit 522 back in front of you for
A.
That's Senate District 4?
Yes.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 125 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2170 Page 305
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
Senate District 4 as depicted in Exhibit 522 is
composed of three whole counties --
2
3
A.
I'm sorry.
I've got the wrong exhibit.
4
Q.
District 4 is composed of three whole counties,
5
Vance, Warren and Halifax, and part of two
6
counties, Nash and Wilson; is that correct?
7
A.
That's correct.
8
Q.
Could District 4 have been drawn without extending
it into Wilson county?
9
10
A.
I don't believe so, no.
Well, drawn in any format?
11
12
Q.
Yes.
13
A.
Well, obviously, yes.
14
Q.
Was it extended into Wilson county solely for the
purpose of getting it above 50 percent plus one?
15
16
A.
I believe the district generally in that area was
already above that level.
17
18
Q.
So why did you extend it into Wilson county?
19
A.
Well, because there's a very large African American
20
community in Wilson county and that was needed to
21
be added to Vance, Warren, Halifax and Nash in
22
order to bring the district up to the
23
majority-minority status.
24
25
Q.
Without adding Wilson, it could not have been drawn
at majority-minority status?
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 126 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2171 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 306
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
I do not believe so.
2
Q.
Did you experiment with drawing it without adding
Wilson county?
3
4
A.
I guess I could best answer that question to say as
5
many times as I've looked at the demographics
6
around this area, I was pretty sure that it could
7
not happen, and I think if I tried now I would be
8
proved correct.
MR. FARR:
9
Excuse me for a second.
(Discussion held off the record.)
10
11
BY MR. SPEAS:
12
Q.
After conferring with your counsel, do you want to
change one of your answers?
13
14
I'm very confident.
A.
No.
15
Is this yours?
16
MR. FARR:
Yes.
17
MR. SPEAS
let's mark as Exhibit 533.
18
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 533 was marked for
identification.)
19
20
BY MR. SPEAS:
21
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, Exhibit 533 is a map of District 41
as it appears in Rucho Senate 1 and Rucho Senate 2.
22
Did you draw this district?
23
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
And did you draw this district at Senator Rucho's
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 127 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2172 Page 307
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
direction?
1
2
A.
Under the directions given to me by Senator Rucho
3
to draw the two majority-minority districts, this
4
district had to result.
5
Q.
So this district is entirely -- well, let me
rephrase it.
6
The shape of this district is entirely a
7
8
consequence of drawing Districts 38 and 40 the way
9
you drew them?
10
A.
Right.
11
MR. FARR:
Objection.
12
THE WITNESS:
Not entirely, but
13
Mecklenburg was a one-county group and I believe
14
there's another Senate district -- other Senate
15
district down there, but the northern portion of
16
Mecklenburg county is isolated and it has to be
17
brought around either to the east or west of the
18
county in order to gain the necessary population to
19
comply with one person, one vote.
20
BY MR. SPEAS:
21
Q.
But to restate my question:
District 41 is
22
principally a consequence of the decision to draw
23
38 and 40 the way they were drawn?
MR. FARR:
24
25
Objection.
BY MR. SPEAS:
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 128 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2173 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 308
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
Your answer is yes?
2
A.
My answer is yes.
3
Q.
And precincts are divided in District 41?
4
A.
Yes.
5
Q.
And they're divided as a consequence of the
direction to draw 38 and 40 at 50 percent plus?
6
7
MR. FARR:
8
THE WITNESS:
9
Objection.
In part.
BY MR. SPEAS:
10
Q.
Is District 41 compact from your perspective?
11
A.
It's acceptably compact because of the reason for
which it had to be drawn.
12
13
Q.
Is it accurate, Dr. Hofeller, that in drawing these
14
maps that you determined and believed and acted on
15
the assumption that compactness was not a
16
requirement with respect to VRA districts?
17
MR. FARR:
Objection.
18
MR. PETERS:
19
THE WITNESS:
Objection.
I think that the first
20
requirement was to draw the VRA districts as best
21
they could be drawn and then to draw them in that
22
context as compact as you could, so I guess that's
23
the way I would answer that question.
24
BY MR. SPEAS:
25
Q.
Let's talk about some of your House districts.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 129 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2174 Page 309
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
They're the
General Assembly's House districts.
2
3
They're not my House districts, sir.
Q.
The ones you drew.
4
Let's start with Exhibit 534.
5
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 534 was marked for
identification.)
6
7
BY MR. SPEAS:
8
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, Exhibit 534 is in front of you.
is a set of three maps -- I'm sorry.
9
10
of two maps.
11
Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
It is a set
Lewis House VRA Corrected and
Did you draw this district in these --
12
13
It
A.
Yes.
It's kind of hard to identify because part of
14
the drawing of both of them it seems to be badly
15
reproduced.
16
illegible.
17
Q.
The Pasquotank section is pretty
I apologize for that.
18
MS. EARLS:
19
My copy is probably better.
THE WITNESS:
20
21
BY MR. SPEAS:
22
Q.
23
I can see it now.
Let me give you the better one.
Yes, it is fading
Pasquotank.
Is Exhibit 534 a map of District 2 as you
24
25
I think your copy is better.
drew it in VRA Corrected?
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 130 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2175 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 310
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
Yes.
2
Q.
And did you draw this district -- did you confer
3
with anybody in any House district prior to drawing
4
the districts?
5
A.
I assume the answer is no.
You know, I just have a question in my mind here.
6
Well, I drew the district -- let me put this this
7
way.
8
Q.
I did not personally confer with anybody.
Did you confer with any member of the legislature
other than Representative Lewis with regard to this
9
district?
10
11
A.
No.
12
Q.
This is one of the VRA districts in the House?
13
A.
It is.
14
Q.
And I take it that Representative Lewis gave you
15
the same direction that Senator Rucho gave you
16
which was to draw VRA districts at 50 percent plus
17
one.
18
A.
He did.
19
Q.
And he gave you the direction to draw as many of
them as you could to achieve proportionality?
20
21
MR. FARR:
Objection.
22
THE WITNESS:
No, he did not.
23
BY MR. SPEAS:
24
Q.
What did he tell you?
25
A.
He said we should work toward proportionality.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 131 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2176 Page 311
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
county.
2
3
Tell me why this district divides Pasquotank
A.
It has to divide some county.
You have a whole
4
county -- Gates and Hertford and Bertie are whole
5
counties.
6
required population.
7
Q.
It has to be somewhere to pick up its
Could it have been drawn as a single district
8
consisting of the full counties of Gates, Hertford,
9
Bertie and Martin?
10
A.
I don't know at this point.
11
Q.
But Pasquotank county is divided in District 2
12
solely for the purpose of getting to the black
13
population in Elizabeth City; is that correct?
14
A.
Would you ask that question again.
15
Q.
Pasquotank county is divided in District 2 solely
16
for the purpose of getting to the black population
17
in Elizabeth City?
18
MR. FARR:
19
THE WITNESS:
Objection.
No.
It's divided because it
20
can't fit entirely within the district and so part
21
of it has to be put into the district.
22
BY MR. SPEAS:
23
Q.
Did you examine alternative plans that would have
24
put -- kept Pasquotank county whole and still
25
created a VRA district in that area?
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 132 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2177 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 312
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
I guess, then, my answer has to be that you have to
2
examine the entire map in terms of the Stephenson
3
county groupings and what effect each move would
4
have on the county groupings, so you can't just
5
say, all right, we'll take this district here.
6
would then end up maybe having to regroup the whole
7
area of the state and some of those ripple effects
8
from the regroupings could reach halfway across the
9
state.
10
Q.
You
Is it correct, Dr. Hofeller, that the House plan as
11
enacted contains five more VRA districts than the
12
prior plan?
13
A.
I don't rightly recall the count either way at this
moment.
14
15
Q.
Do you recall that it includes more?
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
And do you recall where those additional districts
are located?
18
19
A.
I'd have to look at the map really to --
20
Q.
Well, let me let you look.
This is the notebook
21
that Mr. Peters conveniently gave us I think on the
22
first day that we did of deposition and it's proved
23
valuable.
24
me.
25
A.
Over here is the House section.
Pardon
I got it.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 133 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2178 Page 313
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
And if you could look at the enacted plan and the
2
prior plan and tell me where the additional VRA
3
districts are located, I would appreciate it.
4
me take my sticky off of that.
5
hint.
6
A.
Let
It would give you a
Once again, it's hard to say exactly where the new
7
districts are located because we're dealing with
8
new 2010 populations of the counties and the
9
clusters therefor are entirely different than they
were previously, but -- go ahead.
10
11
Q.
Never mind.
Would it refresh your memory if I told you there
12
was one more VRA district in Mecklenburg county in
13
the new plan than in the old plan?
14
A.
Yes.
MR. FARR:
15
16
BY MR. SPEAS:
17
Q.
Objection to the form.
And that there is one more VRA district in Guilford
county than in the old plan?
18
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
And that there's one more VRA district in Wake
county than in the old plan?
21
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
And that there are two more VRA districts in the
24
northeast than in the prior plan?
MR. FARR:
25
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
Objection.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 134 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2179 Page 314
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
THE WITNESS:
1
I believe that's correct,
yes.
2
3
BY MR. SPEAS:
4
Q.
Wouldn't it be correct that by adding the African
5
American population in Elizabeth City to District 2
6
you were able to better achieve the goal of
7
proportionality?
8
MR. FARR:
Objection.
9
THE WITNESS:
It's equally true if not
10
more true that that was the county grouping that we
11
had to put in there in order to satisfy the
12
requirements of Stephenson.
So as I said before, you can't really say
13
14
this district was the extra district.
15
not an accurate statement of the facts.
16
BY MR. SPEAS:
17
Q.
It's just
But it is accurate that there are two additional
18
VRA districts in the northeastern part of the
19
state?
20
A.
That's correct.
21
MR. FARR:
22
THE WITNESS:
Depending on how you define
the northeastern part of the state.
23
MR. SPEAS:
24
25
Objection.
Well, let's leave it at that.
///
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 135 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2180 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 315
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 535 was marked for
1
identification.)
2
3
BY MR. SPEAS:
4
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, Exhibit 535 in front of you is two
5
maps of District 10 in the Senate plan.
6
maps are Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 1 and
7
Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
The two
Did you draw this district?
8
9
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
And is this district compact?
11
MR. PETERS:
Objection.
12
THE WITNESS:
Within the context of the
13
surrounding districts which required it to be drawn
14
the way it was drawn, it is acceptably compact in
15
the North Carolina context, yes.
16
BY MR. SPEAS:
17
Q.
And is this district entirely a product of the
African American district drawn in this same area?
18
MR. FARR:
19
20
BY MR. SPEAS:
21
Q.
Objection.
Is the shape of it entirely -- is it the mirror
district of District 12?
22
23
A.
No, that's not correct.
24
Q.
Let me show you a document that we will mark as
25
Exhibit 536.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 136 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2181 Page 316
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 536 was marked for
1
identification.)
2
3
BY MR. SPEAS:
4
Q.
Exhibit 536 are maps of District 12.
The two maps
5
are the district as it appeared in Lewis House VRA
6
and the district as it appeared in the enacted
7
plan.
Did you draw that district?
8
9
A.
I did.
10
Q.
And was this district drawn pursuant to
11
Representative Lewis's directions to you to draw a
12
VRA district, with regard to VRA districts?
13
A.
it a majority-minority district, yes.
14
15
To maintain the existing 12th District and to make
Q.
And is this district compact?
16
MR. PETERS:
Objection.
17
THE WITNESS:
Again, in terms of the
18
requirements for drawing districts in
19
North Carolina, yes.
20
BY MR. SPEAS:
21
Q.
22
Have you ever drawn a district this non-compact for
any entity?
23
MR. FARR:
24
MR. PETERS:
25
THE WITNESS:
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
Objection.
Objection.
Have I?
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 137 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2182 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 317
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
BY MR. SPEAS:
2
Q.
Yes.
3
A.
You mean as an enacted plan?
4
Q.
As a map drawer.
5
A.
At all?
6
Q.
At all.
7
A.
Yes.
8
Q.
Worse than this one?
MR. FARR:
9
Objection.
THE WITNESS:
10
Depends on how you define
11
"worse."
12
BY MR. SPEAS:
13
Q.
Okay.
14
A.
There's a reason for the way this district is
drawn --
15
16
Q.
Now --
17
A.
-- which is more germane.
18
Q.
Comparing Exhibit 535, which is the map of
19
District 10, and 536, which is the map of
20
District 12, is it correct that District 10 is
21
largely a consequence of the shape of District 12?
22
MR. FARR:
Objection.
23
THE WITNESS:
The answer is still no
24
because there's another VRA district involved.
25
you want to come back to it.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 138 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2183 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 318
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
MR. SPEAS:
1
I want to ask the court reporter
to mark Exhibit 537.
2
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 537 was marked for
3
identification.)
4
5
BY MR. SPEAS:
6
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, Exhibit 537 is three maps of
7
District 21, specifically maps of District 21 in
8
Lewis House VRA, Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 1 and
9
Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
10
MR. FARR:
11
MR. SPEAS:
What number is this, please?
537.
12
BY MR. SPEAS:
13
Q.
Did you draw this district?
14
A.
I drew all three of them.
15
Q.
District 21 changed from Lewis House VRA to
Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 1, correct?
16
17
A.
It did.
18
Q.
And it changed in this regard:
It came out of
19
Pender county and it went into Duplin county,
20
correct?
That's the principal difference?
21
A.
That's correct.
22
Q.
And what was the reason for that change?
23
A.
The reason for that change was a regrouping in that
24
region due to the elimination of the
25
majority-minority district that went into
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- Doc. Ex. 2184 Page 319
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Wilmington and because you could no longer -- you
2
had to create a pair -- a three-county grouping, I
3
think, in Columbus, Pender and New Hanover.
4
MR. FARR:
Look at it again, Tom.
5
THE WITNESS:
What?
Right.
I'm sorry.
6
Pender went into -- went in with Onslow.
7
before was in with Onslow, but for population
8
reasons, you could not keep the combination the
9
same.
10
BY MR. SPEAS:
11
Q.
Duplin
Is it correct, Dr. Hofeller, that regardless of the
12
county in which it was finally located, this
13
district was drawn in order to comply with
14
Representative Lewis's directions to create VRA
15
districts at least of 50 percent BVAP?
16
A.
other districts drawn in this plan in this area.
17
18
Yes, although I would add that it's very similar to
Q.
I understand.
And in drawing this district in its various
19
20
manifestations, the goal that remained constant was
21
to draw it as a 50 percent plus one district?
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
And its shape is entirely a product of the decision
24
to draw this as a 50 percent plus one district?
MR. FARR:
25
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
Objection.
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- Doc. Ex. 2185 Page 320
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
THE WITNESS:
1
Certainly not.
2
BY MR. SPEAS:
3
Q.
Its shape is certainly a part of the reason?
4
A.
Yes, but I wouldn't say it's the principal reason
5
because if you look at other plans of districts
6
that were drawn in that area as well as the 12th
7
District you'll find they're very similar.
MR. FARR:
8
Can we take a break when it's a
good time, Eddie.
9
10
MR. SPEAS:
Now is as good as any.
11
(Brief Recess:
12
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 538 was marked for
2:19 to 2:29 p.m.)
identification.)
13
14
BY MR. SPEAS:
15
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, Exhibit 538 is a copy of District 4
16
of Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 1 and
17
Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
Did you draw that district?
18
19
A.
I did.
20
Q.
It is not a Voting Rights district, correct?
21
A.
It is not a Voting Rights district.
22
Q.
Is its shape a consequence of the adjoining Voting
Rights district?
23
24
25
A.
Well, its shape is a consequence of the adjoining
Voting Rights district as well as the county
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- Doc. Ex. 2186 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 321
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
grouping system and the group in which it's located
2
which limited where it could go.
3
Q.
Did the county grouping system as you understand it
4
to be required by the Stephenson decision require
5
you to draw less compact districts than you might
6
otherwise have drawn?
7
MR. FARR:
8
THE WITNESS:
9
10
Objection.
Yes.
BY MR. SPEAS:
Q.
Did the county grouping system as you understand it
11
to be required by Stephenson require you to divide
12
counties you otherwise wouldn't have divided?
13
A.
It's hard to say.
If the groups were not there, if
14
that was not a requirement -- and, of course,
15
that's not the case -- the context of the whole
16
plan would have been different.
But since you asked the question, I would
17
18
have to say if you go back and look at a lot of the
19
districts that we looked at and the shapes of the
20
districts, you would see that the places that the
21
districts could go were limited by the boundaries
22
of the group.
For instance, like that Senate district in
23
24
Mecklenburg where you could have drawn a much
25
better district in the north and the south of
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- Doc. Ex. 2187 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 322
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Mecklenburg if you could have exited the county, so
2
I think it's fair to say that both in terms of the
3
majority-minority districts and in terms of the
4
districts that surrounded them, if you were not
5
limited by the special requirement of the
6
Stephenson case, which is unique to North Carolina,
7
you would have had districts that would have been
8
better shaped.
9
Q.
I'm going to ask the court reporter to mark this as
Exhibit 539.
10
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 539 was marked for
11
identification.)
12
13
BY MR. SPEAS:
14
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, Exhibit 539 is maps of District 23 in
Lewis House VRA and Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
15
Did you draw District 23 in these maps?
16
17
A.
I did.
18
Q.
Is District 23 a VRA district?
19
A.
It is.
20
Q.
Is it one of the districts drawn at the direction
of Representative Lewis?
21
22
A.
It is.
23
Q.
And let me ask the court reporter to mark this next
document as Exhibit 540.
24
25
///
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 143 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2188 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 323
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 540 was marked for
1
identification.)
2
(Discussion held off the record.)
3
4
BY MR. SPEAS:
5
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, I put in front of you Exhibit 540
6
which is a map of District 25 as it appeared in
7
Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 1 and Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
Did you draw that map -- that district?
8
9
A.
I did.
And this is a classic example, I might add,
10
of the effects of the county clustering system
11
which is dictated by Stephenson, and that is there
12
was the necessity to draw a two-county cluster in
13
Nash and Franklin and yet to preserve a district
14
for the minority population in those two counties.
So Exhibit 39 displays District 23 and
15
16
Exhibit 40 displays District 25 which are the two
17
districts contained entirely within that cluster.
This goes back to my original statement to
18
19
you which was you can't take each district in its
20
singular context without looking at the entire map
21
and the context of the map and the county clusters.
22
Q.
But Districts 23 and 25 as illustrated in Exhibits
23
539 and 540 are entirely a product of your
24
determination that you needed to draw as many
25
two-county clusters as you could and your
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- Doc. Ex. 2189 Page 324
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
determination -- and Dr. -- excuse me -- and
2
Representative Lewis's directions to draw VRA
3
districts?
4
A.
It's part of the harmonization between those two
5
criteria mandated by the Stephenson court and by
6
the Supreme Court.
7
Q.
Did you undertake any analysis to determine whether
8
there's a community of interest of any kind between
9
Franklin and Nash counties?
10
A.
No.
11
Q.
Do you know whether anybody ever did that?
12
A.
No.
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 541 was marked for
13
identification.)
14
15
BY MR. SPEAS:
16
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, in front of you is Exhibit 541, and
17
it is a map of a Durham county district.
In Lewis
18
VRA Corrected, it is labeled District 31.
19
enacted Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4, it is labeled
20
District 29.
In
Did you draw this district?
21
22
A.
I did.
23
Q.
Do you know the reason for the change in the
numbering?
24
25
A.
I believe at some point in the plan we renumbered a
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- Doc. Ex. 2190 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 325
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
lot of these districts and this was just one that
2
got renumbered.
I think the attempt was here to match as
3
4
many numbers as we could to the incumbents whose
5
residences were in the district, the old district
6
that they had.
7
Q.
Representative Lewis's VRA directions?
8
9
Is this one of the districts drawn at
A.
Yes.
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 542 was marked for
10
identification.)
11
12
BY MR. SPEAS:
13
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, I put Exhibit 542 in front of you,
14
which is a map of District 39 (sic) in Lewis House
15
VRA and a map of District 31 in
16
Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
17
the same district though the numbers are different.
Did you draw these districts?
18
19
A.
I believe you said that was District 39.
Did I
mishear that?
20
21
They appear to me to be
Q.
Maybe I misspoke.
It is District 30 in Lewis House
VRA and District 31 in Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
22
23
A.
It is.
24
Q.
Did you draw this district?
25
A.
I did.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 146 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2191 Page 326
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
It did not change from Lewis House VRA to
Lewis-Dollar-Dockham?
2
3
A.
It didn't change appreciably.
4
Q.
And it was drawn at Senator Lewis's (sic) VRA
directions?
5
6
A.
directions of the entire map, yes.
7
8
Well, not only his VRA directions, but the general
Q.
But there is no county grouping issue here?
This
district is drawn entirely within Durham?
9
10
A.
That's true.
11
Q.
And to state the obvious, there are no grouping
issues in districts drawn entirely within a county?
12
MR. FARR:
13
Objection.
14
BY MR. SPEAS:
15
Q.
Correct?
16
A.
I don't think that's generally true, no.
You have
17
to look at all the districts that were drawn within
18
the county, and so whereas it might not be true for
19
one district, it might be true for others.
20
Q.
But for Wake and Mecklenburg counties in
21
particular, there is no county -- there's no
22
clustering issue?
23
MR. FARR:
24
THE WITNESS:
25
Objection.
I'm sorry.
Say again.
BY MR. SPEAS:
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 147 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2192 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 327
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
For Mecklenburg county and for Wake county, in the
House plan there's no clustering issue?
2
3
MR. FARR:
Objection.
4
THE WITNESS:
Aside from the fact that
5
they are one-county clusters and you can't leave
6
the boundaries of the county, so that's always
7
present in all of the districts be they VRA
8
districts or not VRA districts.
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 543 was marked for
9
identification.)
10
11
BY MR. SPEAS:
12
Q.
In front of you, Dr. Hofeller, is Exhibit 543.
It
13
is District 38 in Lewis House VRA and District 33
14
in Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
Though the numbers of the districts are
15
16
different, it appears to me to be the same
17
district; is that correct?
18
A.
Well, not entirely, but they are generally the
same.
19
20
Q.
Did you draw it?
21
A.
I did.
22
Q.
Did you draw it pursuant to Representative Lewis's
directions?
23
24
A.
I did.
25
Q.
And this district contains divided precincts,
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- Doc. Ex. 2193 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 328
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
correct?
1
2
A.
It does.
3
Q.
And were precincts divided in order to achieve the
4
direction to draw this at 50-percent-plus-one
5
level?
6
A.
For the most part, yes.
7
Q.
And I'm going to ask the court reporter to mark
this next document as 544.
8
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 544 was marked for
9
identification.)
10
11
BY MR. SPEAS:
12
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, Exhibit 544 consists of two pages,
13
maps of District 34 as it appeared in
14
Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 1 and Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
15
This is a Wake county district.
Did you draw this?
16
17
A.
Yes, I did.
18
Q.
It's not a VRA district, correct?
19
A.
It is not a VRA district.
20
Q.
Did you consult with Art Pope in drawing this
district?
21
22
A.
No.
23
Q.
Do you recall which Wake county districts you
discussed with Art Pope?
24
25
A.
I didn't discuss any Wake county districts with Art
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- Doc. Ex. 2194 Page 329
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
Pope.
1
2
Q.
I misunderstood your testimony.
Sorry.
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 545 was marked for
3
identification.)
4
5
BY MR. SPEAS:
6
Q.
Exhibit 545 is a map of District 33 in Lewis House
VRA and District 38 in Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
7
Did you draw these maps?
8
9
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
And was this district drawn as a VRA district?
it was in Lewis House VRA Corrected, it was.
11
MR. FARR:
12
If you don't know, you can look
13
at the percentages in the map.
14
THE WITNESS:
Sometimes I don't recognize
them if the whole map of the county isn't up.
15
MR. FARR:
16
Can I show him to speed this
up?
17
MR. SPEAS:
18
BY MR. SPEAS:
20
Q.
It was enacted as 38.
21
A.
Okay.
Yes.
19
I'm sorry.
Yes.
22
25
Better repeat your question so I'm
clear as to what I was answering yes to.
23
24
If
Q.
Was this district drawn pursuant to Representative
Lewis's directions regarding VRA districts?
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 150 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2195 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 330
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
Yes.
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 546 was marked for
2
identification.)
3
4
BY MR. SPEAS:
5
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, Exhibit 546 is a map of District 42
in Lewis House VRA and Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
6
Did you draw this district?
7
8
A.
I did.
9
Q.
And was this district drawn pursuant to
Representative Lewis's VRA directions?
10
11
A.
Yes, but not only his VRA directions but his county
grouping directions.
12
This is another example where you may have
13
14
been able to cross the county line and draw a more
15
regularly shaped district, but again, once limited
16
by the boundaries of the county grouping which in
17
almost all cases in the state determine the shape
18
of the districts.
19
Q.
Precincts are divided in this district, correct?
20
A.
That's correct.
21
Q.
And were precincts divided in order to achieve the
22
50-percent-plus-one direction?
23
MR. FARR:
24
MR. PETERS:
25
THE WITNESS:
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
Objection.
Objection.
Again, precincts had to be
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- Doc. Ex. 2196 Page 331
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Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
divided if you stayed within the county grouping to
2
do this, but also there was another VRA district
3
that was being drawn within that county also.
MR. SPEAS:
4
And we're going to talk about
that now.
5
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 547 was marked for
6
identification.)
7
8
BY MR. SPEAS:
9
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, in front of you is Exhibit 547 which
10
is a map of District 43 in Lewis House VRA and
11
Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
Did you draw this district?
12
13
A.
I did.
14
Q.
Was it the second VRA district you mentioned a
moment ago?
15
16
A.
Within the Cumberland --
17
Q.
Within Cumberland county.
18
A.
Within Cumberland single county group.
think it was a single county group.
19
20
Q.
I don't
Yes, it was.
And a number of precincts are divided in drawing
this district.
21
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
And precincts were divided in order to comply with
24
the 50-percent-plus-one direction?
MR. FARR:
25
5813 Shawood Drive
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Objection.
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- Doc. Ex. 2197 Page 332
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Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
THE WITNESS:
1
My recollection is there
2
were other reasons why the precincts were divided.
3
There was an issue with the incumbencies in this
4
county.
5
BY MR. SPEAS:
6
Q.
Presumably dividing one precinct would resolve an
incumbent problem, correct?
7
8
A.
Depends on where the incumbent is.
9
Q.
Let's go to the last district in Cumberland county.
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 548 was marked for
10
identification.)
11
12
BY MR. SPEAS:
13
Q.
Exhibit 548 is District 45 in Lewis-DollarDockham 1 and Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
14
Did you draw this district?
15
16
A.
I did.
17
Q.
And is its shape a consequence of the shape of the
18
two VRA districts in Cumberland county?
19
MR. PETERS:
Objection.
20
MR. FARR:
21
THE WITNESS:
Objection.
Not primarily.
It's a
22
consequence of the county grouping requirement of
23
North Carolina.
24
job with the northern and southern portions of that
25
district if you could have crossed out of the
5813 Shawood Drive
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You could have done a much better
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- Doc. Ex. 2198 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 333
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
one-county group.
1
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 549 was marked for
2
identification.)
3
4
BY MR. SPEAS:
5
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, Exhibit 549 is a map of District 47
6
in Lewis House VRA, Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 1 and
7
Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
Did you draw this district?
8
9
A.
Both of these districts.
They're different
districts.
10
11
Q.
Different in what sense?
12
A.
Well, different in one sense in that we had to
13
comply with the county clustering rules of the
14
State Supreme Court.
As you can see, the 1st District had a
15
16
double traverse -- actually had a triple traverse
17
between Hoke and Robeson counties, and you'll
18
notice that the enacted plan or that
19
Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 1 eliminated that traverse and
20
put the district entirely within Robeson county in
21
line with the requirement of the Supreme Court.
22
Q.
Representative Lewis's direction?
23
24
25
Did you make that change on your own or at
A.
Well, I made the change first and then I said I've
done this for this reason and they concurred.
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- Doc. Ex. 2199 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 334
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
It's part of my job to try and eliminate
1
2
those double, triple traverses out of the
3
districts.
4
Q.
Is this a Native American district?
5
A.
Yes.
6
Q.
Drawn pursuant to Representative Lewis's
directions?
7
8
A.
Yes.
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 550 was marked for
9
identification.)
10
11
BY MR. SPEAS:
12
Q.
Exhibit 550, Dr. Hofeller, is a map of District 48
13
in Lewis House VRA and Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
14
This district is contained in parts of four
15
counties.
Did you draw it?
16
17
A.
I did.
18
Q.
And for what purpose did you draw this district?
19
A.
My purpose was -- well, there were multiple
20
purposes.
21
The other purpose was that this district as well as
22
Districts 12 and 21 and 47 are all contained in the
23
very large 20-county grouping that was required by
24
the need to draw all the Mecklenburg districts very
25
low in population in order to satisfy Stephenson.
5813 Shawood Drive
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One purpose was to draw a VRA district.
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- Doc. Ex. 2200 Page 335
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Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
So all of these districts in this cluster
1
2
had to be drawn almost above the limit of plus five
3
percent.
4
and, indeed, Districts 21 and 12 were guided by the
5
fact that they had to be larger in population than
6
they would be without adherence to the county
7
grouping rules, and so that was a principal factor
8
in the drafting of this district as well as trying
9
to draw a majority-minority district.
So part of the context of this district
It would
10
have been a lot easier if the population had been
11
lower.
12
Q.
decision?
13
14
So this district is a product of the Stephenson
A.
Well, again, it's the harmonization of
15
Stephenson -- that Stephenson requires between the
16
Voting Rights Act and the county grouping.
17
Q.
Now, a number of precincts are divided in this
district, correct?
18
19
A.
They are.
20
Q.
And were those precincts divided in order to get to
21
50 percent plus one?
22
MR. FARR:
Objection.
23
THE WITNESS:
Again, in order to get to
24
50 percent one in the context of the grouping rule
25
where the district had to be very high in
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- Doc. Ex. 2201 Page 336
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Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
population.
1
2
BY MR. SPEAS:
3
Q.
this district?
4
5
Have you counted the number of county traverses in
A.
I'm sorry.
traverse.
6
MR. FARR:
7
8
BY MR. SPEAS:
9
Q.
Thanks.
I would like for you to count the number of county
traverses as you define county traverses.
10
11
I need to know how you define a county
A.
Okay.
This particular district has a traverse
12
between Richmond and Scotland.
13
between Scotland and Hoke.
14
between Hoke and Robeson.
15
Q.
There is a traverse
And are there two traverses between Robeson and
Scotland?
16
17
A.
There are.
18
Q.
There's only one?
19
A.
There's only one.
I'm sorry.
20
MR. FARR:
21
THE WITNESS:
Between Robeson -- no.
Yes, that's right.
There's one between Hoke and
Robeson and one between Scotland and Robeson.
22
23
BY MR. SPEAS:
24
Q.
25
It has a traverse
Isn't it true that on this map there are two
extensions out of Scotland county into Robeson
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- Doc. Ex. 2202 Page 337
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
county?
1
2
A.
In VRA or in Dockham 4?
MR. FARR:
3
You guys are looking at
different maps.
4
5
BY MR. SPEAS:
6
Q.
Oh, we are looking at different maps.
7
A.
I'm looking at the final map.
8
Q.
I was looking at the first one.
9
A.
There it is.
10
Q.
With regard to the 20-county cluster that you
I apologize.
11
talked about a minute ago, Dr. Hofeller, did you
12
experiment with the possibility of drawing clusters
13
in a way that would not produce a 20-county
14
cluster?
15
A.
Actually, I didn't personally experiment with it,
but it was experimented with by --
16
17
Q.
Mr. Oldham?
18
A.
-- Mr. Oldham, and I saw what Mr. Oldham did and I
19
concurred with what he did.
Again, the problem is Mecklenburg has to be
20
21
a single-county grouping and that creates a series
22
of very -- of districts in Mecklenburg with very
23
low population.
24
you come up with end up having 121 districts, so
25
you had to have a large enough county grouping to
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And a lot of the solutions that
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- Doc. Ex. 2203 Page 338
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
amortize, as you might say, that large -- that
2
smaller number of districts into a cluster which
3
drives the average district size per cluster or
4
grouping up very, very high.
So indeed, we took the county grouping for
5
6
the House of Representatives plan that was most
7
compliant with the dictates of the decision, the
8
Stephenson decision.
9
Q.
So the way you interpreted the Stephenson decision,
10
the 20-county grouping was the grouping most
11
compliant with Stephenson?
12
A.
Well, it wasn't my job to determine --
13
MR. PETERS:
14
THE WITNESS:
Objection.
-- that.
Again, those were
15
decisions that were made by the Chairman in both
16
the Senate map and the House map.
17
BY MR. SPEAS:
18
Q.
Did you advise Representative Lewis that the
19
20-county grouping is the grouping that is most
20
compliant with the Stephenson --
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
And did you reach that decision in consultation
with Mr. Oldham?
23
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
In fact, was that decision principally made by
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- Doc. Ex. 2204 Page 339
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
Mr. Oldham?
1
2
MR. FARR:
3
THE WITNESS:
4
made by the Chairman.
5
BY MR. SPEAS:
6
Q.
Objection.
The decision was principally
You relied on Mr. Oldham for grouping decisions --
7
you relied on Mr. Oldham with respect to grouping
8
issues, correct?
MR. FARR:
9
Objection.
10
THE WITNESS:
I don't think that's a true
11
representation of how it works.
12
BY MR. SPEAS:
13
Q.
Okay.
14
A.
You have a harmonization that needs to be done
15
between the Voting Rights Act and the county
16
groupings and that requires a large number of
17
iterations to be made which involves a lot of
18
district drawing and a lot of experimentation of
19
districts.
20
the context of both the grouping structure and the
21
VRA requirements.
22
Q.
So, again, one has to see what works in
So your testimony is that in the context of the VRA
23
requirements, the only grouping that would work --
24
that would harmonize with the Stephenson
25
requirements was the 20-county grouping?
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- Doc. Ex. 2205 Page 340
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
MR. FARR:
Objection.
2
Answer the question.
3
THE WITNESS:
It's certainly the only one
4
I saw and it was better compliant than any of the
5
other plans that were presented.
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 551 was marked for
6
identification.)
7
8
BY MR. SPEAS:
9
Q.
Do you have an exhibit in front of you,
Exhibit 551?
10
11
A.
I do.
12
Q.
Exhibit 551 is District 64 in the Lewis House VRA
and District 57 in Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
13
The number changed, but did you draw those
14
districts?
15
16
A.
I did.
17
Q.
And this district is located entirely within
Guilford county?
18
19
A.
It is.
20
Q.
And this district was drawn at Representative
21
Lewis's directions, VRA directions, correct?
22
MR. FARR:
Objection.
23
THE WITNESS:
It was drawn, again, due to
24
their directions to harmonize both the Voting
25
Rights Act and the county grouping requirements.
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- Doc. Ex. 2206 Page 341
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
BY MR. SPEAS:
2
Q.
This district is located entirely within Guilford
3
county, so you weren't concerned about grouping,
4
were you -MR. FARR:
5
Objection.
6
BY MR. SPEAS:
7
Q.
-- in drawing this district?
8
A.
Well, again, all the groups and all the districts
within the group are part of the grouping, so this
9
was one of those.
10
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 552 was marked for
11
identification.)
12
13
BY MR. SPEAS:
14
Q.
Exhibit 552 is Lewis House VRA District 63 and
15
Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 District 58.
16
number changed.
Again, the
Did you draw this district?
17
18
A.
I drew them both, yes.
19
Q.
And you drew them pursuant to Representative
Lewis's directions?
20
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
Did you go to Representative Lewis or Senator Rucho
23
at any point in time and say, "Senator Rucho,
24
Representative Lewis, but for this Stephenson
25
decision, we could have drawn these districts a lot
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- Doc. Ex. 2207 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 342
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
better"?
1
2
MR. PETERS:
Objection.
3
MR. FARR:
4
THE WITNESS:
Objection.
I certainly don't recollect
5
having that conversation.
We were, all of us,
6
familiar with the requirements of the State Supreme
7
Court, with the Voting Rights Act and Strickland
8
and everybody knew that.
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 553 was marked for
9
identification.)
10
11
BY MR. SPEAS:
12
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, Exhibit 553 is District 60 in Lewis
13
House VRA and District 60 in Lewis-Dollar-
14
Dockham 4.
Did you draw these two districts?
15
16
A.
I did.
I'm sorry, these -- yes, the two
iterations.
17
18
Q.
Two iterations of District 60?
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
The changes between Lewis House VRA and
21
Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 would reasonably be
22
described as minor?
23
A.
Well, actually, there's a little bit of county or
24
precinct uniting in between the two plans and line
25
smoothing.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 163 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2208 Page 343
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Q.
And where did you smooth the line?
Can you help me
2
by identifying the precinct where a line got
3
smoothed?
4
A.
Well, I think if you look at Precinct H03 and that
5
area down there, that was smoothed out.
6
extrusion into H01 and H02.
7
whole.
8
much change in the northern half.
There's no
Precinct H10 is made
The line down in H06 is smoothed out.
Not
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 554 was marked for
9
identification.)
10
11
BY MR. SPEAS:
12
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, 554 is a map of District 66 in
Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 1 and Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
13
Did you draw that?
14
15
A.
I did.
16
Q.
From your perspective, is it a compact district?
17
MR. PETERS:
18
THE WITNESS:
Objection.
In the context of
19
North Carolina redistricting and in the context of
20
the requirements of the Stephenson decision and the
21
Voting Rights Act, it is acceptably compact.
This is another brilliant example of the
22
23
problem of being locked within the boundaries of a
24
county grouping by the Stephenson requirement and
25
having no way to break out of it without violating
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- Doc. Ex. 2209 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 344
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
that requirement.
2
configuration which, as you can see, goes around
3
the African American district, Richmond, Scotland,
4
Hoke and Robeson, and that's the way it had to be
5
drawn.
6
BY MR. SPEAS:
7
Q.
One was stuck with this
Excuse me just one minute.
I have to straighten
something out here.
8
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 555 was marked for
9
identification.)
10
11
BY MR. SPEAS:
12
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, I put in front of you as Exhibit 555
13
a two-page exhibit that includes maps of District
14
75 in Forsyth county in Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 1 and
15
Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
Did you draw that map?
16
17
A.
I did.
18
Q.
And it's not a VRA district, correct?
19
A.
It is not.
20
Q.
And is the shape of that district a consequence of
the VRA districts within Forsyth county?
21
22
MR. FARR:
23
THE WITNESS:
24
BY MR. SPEAS:
25
Q.
Objection.
No.
What accounts for that shape?
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- Doc. Ex. 2210 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 345
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
What accounts for the shape of that district is an
2
interplay between the incumbents in that grouping
3
and what they wanted to do with the area
4
surrounding the two African American districts.
5
Q.
And is that grouping Forsyth county and Davie
county?
6
7
A.
Yes.
8
Q.
Let's talk a little bit about Mecklenburg county.
Let's begin with Exhibit 556.
9
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 556 was marked for
10
identification.)
11
12
BY MR. SPEAS:
13
Q.
And -- oh, shoot, I've given you the wrong exhibit.
Well, actually we can use this.
14
Is Exhibit 556 a copy of a map of District
15
92 in Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4?
16
17
A.
Well, the first sheet is.
18
Q.
And the second sheet is a map of the districts in
Mecklenburg county, correct?
19
20
A.
It is.
21
Q.
Did you draw District 92?
22
A.
I did.
23
Q.
Is it a VRA district?
24
A.
No.
25
///
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 166 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2211 Page 346
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 557 was marked for
1
identification.)
2
3
BY MR. SPEAS:
4
Q.
VRA and District 99 in Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4?
5
6
Is 557, Dr. Hofeller, District 82 in Lewis House
A.
I'll have to take your word for it because I
7
certainly can't see on this map I have out of the
8
exhibit book any detail in Mecklenburg.
As I look back at the previous Exhibit
9
Number 556, I can say, yes, it is.
10
11
Q.
That's why that page was there.
12
A.
Thank you.
13
Q.
Did you draw it --
14
A.
I did.
15
Q.
-- at Representative Lewis's direction?
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
What role, if any, did Senator Rucho play in the
18
drawing of the House districts in Mecklenburg
19
county?
20
A.
None that I know of.
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 558 was marked for
21
identification.)
22
23
BY MR. SPEAS:
24
Q.
25
Exhibit 558, Dr. Hofeller, is a map of District 89
in Lewis House VRA and District 101 in
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- Doc. Ex. 2212 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 347
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
1
The numbers are different, but isn't this
2
essentially the same district?
3
4
A.
I think it's just a little bit more than different.
5
Q.
Tell me about the changes from the Lewis House VRA
version to the enacted version.
6
7
A.
If my recollection is correct, we actually shifted
8
the African American districts in Mecklenburg at
9
the request of one of the African American
10
incumbents.
11
district at the request of a white Democratic
12
incumbent, too.
13
Q.
There was also a shift made in another
And do you recall the name of the African American
member of the legislature?
14
15
A.
No, I'm sorry, I don't.
16
Q.
Was the shift to put -- add -- to change -- to put
17
the incumbent in a particular district or to move
18
the -- help me understand what you were
19
accommodating.
20
A.
The incumbent expressed -- and again, this wasn't
21
expressed to me by the incumbent; it was expressed
22
to Representative Lewis -- the desire to be put
23
into a different district and, of course, in order
24
to accommodate that, some substantial territory had
25
to be shifted around.
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- Doc. Ex. 2213 Page 348
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 559 was marked for
1
identification.)
2
3
BY MR. SPEAS:
4
Q.
Exhibit 559 is a map of District 87 in Lewis House
5
VRA and the same or similar district but different
6
number District 102 in Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
7
Did you draw these iterations of this
district?
8
9
A.
Yes.
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 560 was marked for
10
identification.)
11
12
BY MR. SPEAS:
13
Q.
Exhibit 560 is District 80 in Lewis House VRA and
District 106 in Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
14
Did you draw both iterations of this
15
district?
16
17
A.
I did.
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 561 was marked for
18
identification.)
19
20
BY MR. SPEAS:
21
Q.
Exhibit 561 is a map of District 86 in Lewis House
22
VRA and District 107 in Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4.
23
Appears to me to be iterations of the same
24
district.
Did you draw both these iterations?
25
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 169 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2214 Page 349
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
I did.
2
Q.
Was this district drawn pursuant to Representative
Lewis's directions with regard to VRA districts?
3
4
A.
Yes.
MR. FARR:
5
6
BY MR. SPEAS:
7
Q.
8
And in Mecklenburg county, you drew one more VRA
district than in the prior plan?
MR. FARR:
9
10
Objection.
Can we look at the prior plan
before he answers that question?
THE WITNESS:
11
12
prior plan.
13
VRA district.
Yes, we need to look at the
I think it depends on what you call a
MR. SPEAS:
14
So you want to take a look
15
there.
And the numbers of the districts are
16
different so it gets confusing.
17
MR. FARR:
18
MR. SPEAS:
19
Number 2 is missing.
What do you mean number 2 is
missing?
20
MR. FARR:
21
MR. SPEAS:
22
MR. FARR:
23
THE WITNESS:
24
MR. FARR:
25
THE WITNESS:
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
In this copy of the -That's not it.
Maybe you can find it.
Is this it?
Yes.
One of the problems with the
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- Doc. Ex. 2215 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 350
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
maps produced by the General Assembly staff is they
2
didn't put insets in making larger views of the
3
more highly populated counties.
MR. FARR:
4
We need the chart from Joel
5
Raupe -- or not Joel Raupe -- from Dan Frey
6
affidavit.
7
figure that out.
This is going to take him a while to
MR. SPEAS:
8
If I could lay my hands on
that quickly, I would, but I can't.
9
But if he looks at District 107 -- well, I
10
believe the BVAP in that district is 51.44.
11
12
THE WITNESS:
13
MR. FARR:
Just let me look at it.
Can I ask a question.
How many
14
majority black districts were there in the 2009
15
plan versus the -THE WITNESS:
16
Well, that's where I'm
17
going, but I have to determine which districts were
18
in -- I believe it was 98 through 105.
I believe, if I'm reading it right, there
19
20
was only one majority-minority district in
21
Mecklenburg in the previous plan.
22
BY MR. SPEAS:
23
Q.
And how many did you draw?
24
A.
Five.
25
Q.
And was that at Representative Lewis's direction?
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- Doc. Ex. 2216 Page 351
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A.
Yes.
That changes the context of several previous
2
questions that you asked me, too, particularly the
3
one where you were saying how many new districts
4
there were.
5
Q.
Let me ask you about some other documents,
6
Dr. Hofeller.
We're not too far from the end, but
7
perhaps we should plow ahead.
8
MR. FARR:
What time is it?
9
MR. SPEAS:
MR. FARR:
10
It's 3:20.
Let's take a five-minute break
so he can just walk around for a second.
11
12
MR. SPEAS:
All right.
13
(Brief Recess:
14
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 562 was marked for
3:17 to 3:24 p.m.)
identification.)
15
16
BY MR. SPEAS:
17
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, I have been trying to find the author
18
of Exhibit 562 and I have yet to find the author.
19
This document may have been identified as an
20
exhibit before, but would you take a minute to read
21
this and tell me whether -- if you drafted it, and
22
if not, if you know who drafted it.
23
A.
Okay, I did it.
24
Q.
Okay, thank you.
25
A.
I think kind of late one evening when somebody was
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 172 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2217 Page 352
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
asking a question for some talk they had to give to
2
somebody and was kind of summarily informed that
3
actually that wasn't my function so it was never
4
actually given to anybody.
5
Q.
Was this before or after the plans were enacted, if
you remember?
6
7
A.
Before.
8
Q.
And does this document summarize your views with
respect to the Stephenson requirements?
9
10
A.
No.
11
Q.
Is it your effort to explain the Stephenson
requirements to a layperson?
12
13
A.
Pretty much so.
Sort of like explaining Stephenson
in one paragraph or less.
14
15
It's pretty simplified.
Q.
Let me ask the court reporter to mark this as
Exhibit 563.
16
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 563 was marked for
17
identification.)
18
19
BY MR. SPEAS:
20
Q.
Is Exhibit 563 an e-mail exchange between you and
Joel Raupe in June of 2011?
21
22
A.
That's what it looks like.
23
Q.
And in an e-mail to Mr. Raupe on June 20th at
24
1:57 p.m., did you, among other things, ask Joel
25
how is the map being received in the African
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 173 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2218 Page 353
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
American community?
1
2
A.
I did.
3
Q.
Did we?
4
A.
Yes.
5
Q.
Pardon me.
6
A.
Well, no, you can cover it again.
That's your
prerogative.
7
8
I think we covered this in the last --
Q.
If it's already been marked, I don't want to -MS. EARLS:
9
Just a second.
No.
Oh, yes,
it's a different typeface.
10
MR. SPEAS:
11
All right.
I don't need to
12
ask any more questions about it.
13
Let's mark this as 564.
14
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 564 was marked for
identification.)
15
16
BY MR. SPEAS:
17
Q.
Exhibit 564 is an e-mail exchange on June 30th.
You were copied.
18
19
Do you recognize Exhibit 564?
20
MR. FARR:
Didn't we say this was produced
by mistake?
21
MR. SPEAS:
22
I don't see how it's
privileged.
23
24
BY MR. SPEAS:
25
Q.
And my question is simply this:
5813 Shawood Drive
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Dr. Hofeller, did
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- Doc. Ex. 2219 Page 354
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
you participate in drafting the joint statement
2
issued by Representative Lewis and Senator Rucho
3
with respect to the Congressional plans?
4
it was issued on July 1st.
I think
5
A.
Not to my recollection, no.
6
Q.
Did you participate in drafting the June 17th
7
public statement issued by Representative Lewis and
8
Senator Rucho regarding the House and Senate VRA
9
districts?
10
A.
No.
11
Q.
I want to ask you a question about the data you had
12
in your machine and the data the General Assembly
13
had on its machine.
To your knowledge, was the data on your
14
15
Maptitude -- did the data you have or the data you
16
used identical to the data on the legislative
17
redistricting system?
18
A.
I can't really accurately answer that question.
19
There were -- there are multiple levels of data
20
both as to the databases that were built, what was
21
brought into the redistricting process for drawing
22
reasons, what was loaded on the Maptitude software.
And if you remember, the State had a
23
24
different version of Maptitude than we did.
25
then what you select out of the database on
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- Doc. Ex. 2220 Page 355
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
Maptitude to actually display in the data tables or
2
in the little box that we saw more previously on
3
the screen that was in the lower right-hand corner
4
which reflects the changes in the districts.
So not knowing all of what they had and not
5
6
having used, for the most part, all of what we had
7
in Maptitude but may not have displayed, I really
8
can't answer that question accurately.
9
Q.
for the General Assembly system?
10
11
But you did participate in developing the database
A.
Well, it depends on what participate and
12
development means.
13
it done better and quicker.
14
the data work.
15
General Assembly.
16
Q.
I advised on how they might get
I didn't actually do
That was done by the staff of the
With respect to the different versions of
17
Maptitude, you've testified there was one version
18
at the legislature of Maptitude and you had another
19
version.
20
two versions would do?
21
A.
What were the differences in what those
Well, the State had a desire to house Maptitude on
22
a central computer, which in my judgment has its
23
drawbacks.
24
understanding is that they had to create an
25
interface with ArcView, which is not a Caliper
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
And in order to do that, my
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- Doc. Ex. 2221 Page 356
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
product, and it changed a lot of the display
2
capabilities.
3
the system was a lot slower.
And the other principal thing was
4
Q.
The legislature's system?
5
A.
Yes, a lot slower.
6
Q.
Is one difference that the legislature's system
would draw grouping plan maps and yours wouldn't?
7
8
A.
No, I don't think so.
In my discussions with Dan Frey, my
9
10
understanding was that a group of individuals would
11
take a plan after it had been developed and would
12
develop an overlay that would be put out on the
13
system.
14
something that actually came up with suggested
15
groupings, if it was there, I had no knowledge of
16
it.
17
Q.
So I don't know -- if you're thinking of
Let me just ask the court reporter to mark this as
Exhibit 565.
18
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 565 was marked for
19
identification.)
20
21
BY MR. SPEAS:
22
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, 565 is an e-mail exchange between you
23
and Senator Rucho and Representative Lewis on
24
July 14th.
Would you take a minute to review that and
25
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 177 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2222 Page 357
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
tell me whether you can identify this as an e-mail
2
chain in which you participated.
3
A.
It's certainly a discussion that I took part in.
4
Q.
Help me understand what you meant when you said in
5
your e-mail at the bottom of the first page "All
6
this is a long way to say that Dan should not post
7
our cluster map, but develop his own overly."
Was there something defective about your
8
cluster map?
9
10
A.
We weren't doing cluster maps.
At the beginning of
11
the process, I was trying to keep up with the
12
various clustering schemes, and I determined it was
13
a colossal waste of time because the State data
14
group was set up to do it already and they did a
15
nice job of it.
16
Q.
How then did you know what clusters your maps had
17
created if you were not drawing your own cluster
18
maps?
19
A.
Well, we had hand drawn cluster maps, okay, which
you have.
20
21
Q.
Right.
22
A.
And those were the cluster maps.
I know when I'm
23
crossing out of a cluster.
24
happens in a cluster -- let me take 20-county
25
cluster that we ended up using, okay, which
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
And generally what
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- Doc. Ex. 2223 Page 358
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
determined, once again, the shape of the minority
2
districts.
3
first, as directed by the court, and then fill in
4
the rest from one end to the other, okay.
5
knew what the clusters were but -- and we knew the
6
count of the clusters.
7
Q.
One would draw the minority districts
So we
And just to reiterate what I think is your prior
8
testimony, you and Mr. Oldham were making your
9
determinations about the possible clustering of the
counties using maps and colored pencils.
10
11
A.
He was using maps and colored pencils.
I was using
Maptitude.
12
13
Q.
Okay.
14
A.
Again, it was an iterative process because you
15
don't just draw one set of clusters for the State
16
and then that's it and it's all over with.
17
iterative process.
18
when a decision is made, such as the one not to
19
build the minority district down in the New Hanover
20
area both in the Senate and in the House, I might
21
add, everything -- not everything but a major
22
portion of the state had to be reclustered or
23
sometimes we'd just figure out a better way to do
24
it.
25
Q.
It's an
And every time -- many times
And were there maps that had -- did not contain the
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 179 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2224 Page 359
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
20-county cluster?
1
2
A.
Yes.
3
Q.
And did you attempt to identify ways to cluster
that would not create the 20-county cluster?
4
5
A.
Yes.
6
Q.
But you didn't succeed?
7
A.
I think you'd actually have to talk to Dale more
about that.
8
9
Q.
But to your knowledge didn't succeed?
10
A.
Couldn't find a better way.
better way, we would have done it.
11
12
Q.
And the 20-county cluster was a consequence of the
population in Mecklenburg county?
13
14
If we had found a
A.
Yes.
No, I'm sorry, that's not an accurate
15
16
statement.
You have to look at the whole state's
17
clusters, how many ones there are first, how many
18
twos there are first, how many threes there are
19
first, fours, fives, sixes, sevens and eights and
20
so on, to do the best job there.
21
So Mecklenburg was just one of a number of
22
counties that were single-county groupings, kind of
23
a misnomer, but single-county group that were in
24
the state, so you have to look at the context of
25
the whole state.
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
It's very complex, but it has to
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- Doc. Ex. 2225 Page 360
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
add up to the best -- it has to contain the best
2
set of clusters and it has to have the correct
3
populations within the clusters.
4
way, has to add up to 120 districts and it has to
5
satisfy the requirements of the Voting Rights Act.
It, oh, by the
So, now, I wouldn't say it's just that
6
7
result, but that certainly made it a lot more
8
difficult.
9
Q.
Let me to ask the court reporter to mark this as
566.
10
(WHEREUPON, Exhibit 566 was marked for
11
identification.)
12
13
BY MR. SPEAS:
14
Q.
Dr. Hofeller, is Exhibit 566 an e-mail you
15
exchanged between you and Joel Raupe on July 5,
16
2011?
17
A.
Uh-huh.
18
Q.
And your e-mail to Mr. Raupe reads:
fix that.
19
A.
Q.
I meant usually there's some other objection.
I
I was just --
Was this one of the e-mails you wish you hadn't
sent?
24
25
Was that the only objection -- Ha Ha."
don't know.
22
23
We can
What did you mean by that?
20
21
"Ok.
A.
No, I don't really care one way or the other.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 181 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2226 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 361
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
don't think it's significant of anything.
2
a technical error.
3
Q.
He found
There probably would be more.
Is there, to your knowledge, any e-mail anywhere in
4
which Senator Rucho or Representative Lewis gives
5
you any directions or instructions of any kind?
6
A.
Any kind at all?
7
Q.
Yes.
8
A.
Maybe -- I don't know.
I'd have to look through
9
all my e-mails.
Nothing concerning the plans that
10
I can remember.
Maybe could you be there -- we
11
really would like you to be there on such and such
12
a day or something like that.
13
Q.
All right.
Well, I think I don't have any other
questions.
14
15
MR. FARR:
Great.
16
THE WITNESS:
17
MR. FARR:
18
MS. EARLS:
Okay.
We're done.
I have just one followup to
19
something that Eddie asked that I didn't cover, if
20
I could.
MR. FARR:
21
FURTHER EXAMINATION
22
23
BY MS. EARLS:
24
Q.
25
Okay.
You testified when asked by Mr. Speas that you -that within a cluster, within a county cluster,
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 182 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2227 Page 362
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
what your understanding of the implementation of
2
the Whole County Provision, within a county cluster
3
you tried to keep the counties whole within that
4
cluster.
5
A.
Well, to the extent that you could do it, again,
6
the harmonization of the cluster with the Voting
7
Rights Act.
8
Q.
Right.
9
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Okay.
Can I ask you to look at the
11
Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 4 map, and then I also want to
12
compare that to the -- I think it's called House
13
Fair and Legal map, and I think they're both in
14
there.
15
A.
Okay.
16
Q.
So I need you to also look at the House Fair and
17
Legal.
And so you're looking at a map that's
18
labeled Martin House Fair and Legal.
And my first question is:
19
Am I correct
20
that Harnett, Lee and Chatham are a three-county
21
cluster in both of these maps?
22
MR. FARR:
23
THE WITNESS:
24
BY MS. EARLS:
25
Q.
This one right here.
Yes.
And is it also true that the three districts --
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 183 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2228 Page 363
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
that none of the three districts, that is, 53, 51
2
or 54, is a Voting Rights Act district as we've
3
been using that term, that is, a district that's
4
50 percent or more black voting age population?
5
A.
Yes.
6
Q.
And isn't it also true that in Lewis-Dollar-
7
Dockham 4, all three -- Chatham county is whole,
8
Lee county is divided and Harnett county is
9
divided?
10
A.
True.
11
Q.
And in Martin Fair and Legal, there's only one
county that's divided?
12
13
A.
Right, it's divided three ways.
14
Q.
But you still have two counties that are whole and
only one that's divided.
15
16
A.
That's correct.
It's obvious from the maps.
17
Q.
So in your view, would a map in that cluster where
18
there's no Voting Rights Act districts that only
19
divides -- has one divided county and two whole
20
counties would better comply with Stephenson than a
21
map that has two divided counties and only one
22
whole county?
23
MR. PETERS:
24
THE WITNESS:
25
MS. EARLS:
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
Object to the form.
Probably so, yes.
That's all.
Thank you.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 184 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2229 Page 364
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
THE WITNESS:
2
MR. FARR:
3
THE WITNESS:
You're welcome.
I've got one question on that.
Yes.
EXAMINATION
4
5
BY MR. FARR:
6
Q.
Let me look at this for a second.
I'm looking at
this county group that we just looked at.
7
8
A.
Chatham, Lee and Harnett?
9
Q.
Yes.
So Harnett is in the Fair and Legal plan.
Harnett is in three different districts?
10
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
Okay.
In the Lewis-Dollar-Dockham plan, Harnett is
in two districts?
13
14
A.
Right.
15
Q.
How many county traverses are there in the Martin
House Fair and Legal plan?
16
17
A.
Two.
There's a traverse between Chatham and
18
Harnett and there's a traverse between Lee and
19
Harnett.
20
Q.
And how many are there in the Lewis-Dollar-Dockham
plan?
21
22
A.
Two.
23
Q.
So the traverses are identical?
24
A.
The number of traverses are identical.
25
Q.
Okay.
Thanks.
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 185 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2230 Page 365
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
MR. SPEAS:
1
One more question.
FURTHER EXAMINATION
2
3
BY MR. SPEAS:
4
Q.
Beaufort county is divided in Lewis-DollarDockham 4, correct?
5
6
A.
It is.
7
Q.
And there's no voting rights reason to divide
Beaufort county, is there?
8
MR. PETERS:
9
Objection.
10
MR. FARR:
I object, too.
11
THE WITNESS:
District 6 in the plan is
12
comprised of all of Dare county, all of Hyde
13
county, all of Washington county and a portion of
14
Beaufort county.
I don't know how else you could build the
15
16
map and come up with the county grouping design
17
that was required under Stephenson.
18
BY MR. SPEAS:
19
Q.
So is that an example of a situation where a county
20
had to be divided because of the grouping
21
requirements?
22
A.
Yes.
There were lots of situations like that all
23
over the map.
24
questions about the Senate districts, you know, I
25
don't know.
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
Even when you were asking me the
I was talking about within the
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 186 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2231 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 366
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
clusters, right.
2
things that are decisions that are out of your
3
control, so to speak, which I think is probably the
4
purpose of Stephenson.
5
Q.
Okay.
The clusters force you to do
Do you know whether in the first map, in
6
Lewis-Dollar-Dockham 1, Beaufort county was
7
divided?
8
A.
Q.
Okay.
I'm not sure.
That's fine.
I don't have any other
questions.
11
12
I think it might have been, but it was divided
differently.
9
10
And I don't have a map of that.
A.
Okay.
13
MR. FARR:
14
MR. SPEAS:
15
THE WITNESS:
Thank you, Dr. Hofeller.
You're welcome.
[SIGNATURE RESERVED]
16
17
That's it.
[DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 3:51 P.M.]
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 187 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2232 Page 367
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
1
A C K N O W L E D G E M E N T
O F
D E P O N E N T
2
I, Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D., declare under the
3
4
penalties of perjury under the State of North
5
Carolina that I have read the foregoing 186 pages,
6
which contain a correct transcription of answers made
7
by me to the questions therein recorded, with the
8
exception(s) and/or addition(s) reflected on the
9
correction sheet attached hereto, if any.
Signed this the
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day of
, 2012.
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12
13
THOMAS HOFELLER, Ph.D.
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15
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State of:
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County of:
Subscribed and sworn to before me
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19
this
day of
, 2012.
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21
22
Notary Public
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My commission expires:
25
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
VIVIAN TILLEY & ASSOCIATES
ctrptr4u@aol.com
tel:919.847.5787
fax: 919.847.2265
Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 188 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2233 Page 368
August 10, 2012
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
E R R A T A
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Case Name:
S H E E T
NAACP vs. State or North Carolina, et al. and
Margaret Dickson et al. vs. Robert Rucho, et al.
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Witness Name:
Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D. - Volume II
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Deposition Date:
August 10, 2012
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Page/Line
Reads
Should Read
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Signature
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
Date
VIVIAN TILLEY & ASSOCIATES
ctrptr4u@aol.com
tel:919.847.5787
fax: 919.847.2265
Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 189 of 190
- Doc. Ex. 2234 Thomas Hofeller, Ph.D.
Page 369
August 10, 2012
Margaret Dickson, et al. v. Robert Rucho, et al. 11 CvS 16896 & 16940
STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA
)
)
COUNTY OF WAKE
C E R T I F I C A T E
)
I, DENISE L. MYERS, Court Reporter and
Notary Public, the officer before whom the foregoing
proceeding was conducted, do hereby certify that the
witness(es) whose testimony appears in the foregoing
proceeding were duly sworn by me; that the testimony
of said witness(es) were taken by me to the best of
my ability and thereafter transcribed under my
supervision; and that the foregoing pages, inclusive,
constitute a true and accurate transcription of the
testimony of the witness(es).
I do further certify that I am neither
counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the
parties to this action, and further, that I am not a
relative or employee of any attorney or counsel
employed by the parties thereof, nor financially or
otherwise interested in the outcome of said action.
This the 21st day of August 2012.
Denise L. Myers
My commission expires 9/14/2013
5813 Shawood Drive
Raleigh, NC 27609
VIVIAN TILLEY & ASSOCIATES
ctrptr4u@aol.com
tel:919.847.5787
fax: 919.847.2265
Case 1:15-cv-00399-TDS-JEP Document 23-19 Filed 10/07/15 Page 190 of 190