UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
Interview #72
MILES, PHILIP E.
MILES, Philip E. (1929- )
Professor of Mathematics
At UW: 1960Interviewed: 1976
Series: TA Strike, 1970
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length: 4 hours, 30 minutes
Education; Mathematics Department expansion; Job outlook in 1970s;
Mathematics Research Center; Undergraduate teaching; Mathematics courses; TA
appointments and supervision; Mulvihill Committee report; Class size; Dow
Protests; Mathematics TA-faculty relations; Formation of TAA; Position of
Mathematics in L&S; Student power issue; United Faculty; Effects of TA Strike;
Language requirement issue; L&S deans; Remedial courses; Hiring policies.
Tape 1/Side 1
00:00:09 Pre-interview talk re extent in TA bargaining in 1970 and the importance, for
administrators, of being able to forget things.
00:04:06 Born in Madison, 1929. Went to school here. Went to Harvard in 1947. Worked at
Johns Hopkins a year after college. Two years in army. Yale for graduate work, until
1960. Came here from Yale. Was a TA at Yale three out of four years.
00:08:13 Math Department entering a period of rapid expansion. At that time department
faculty could sit around a single table in Tripp Commons. Now 65 full time.
00:09:47 PM's field functional analysis.
00:11:17 Moving from face to face dealings to group dealings--had to have a meeting to discuss
something instead of dropping into various offices.
00:12:21 Change in method of hiring. Sifting through applications instead of calling a friend
and saying you have a good candidate.
00:13:55 More staff to handle increasing enrollments, more funds available from government,
Philip E. Miles (#72)
not necessarily tied to increased enrollments. Math department more or less
consciously training the students, who would then be teaching in colleges throughout
the country to handle the increased undergraduate enrollment.
00:14:56 Most math faculty here were spending half their instructional time teaching graduate
students during the sixties. Made the impact of the demographic ups and downs more
severe because faculties expanded not only to meet needs of own institution but needs
of other colleges, so when general decline a faculty overextended to teach graduate
students was losing graduate students as well as undergraduates, and unable to place
graduate students it had.
00:16:49 By 1966 the declining birthrate already visible to people who thought to look, but none
of the people involved were in that situation; they all had special interests. So a lag
time before faculty realized it, and even longer before graduate students, who were
pursuing a 5-year program, realized there were not going to be jobs. Not apparent to
them in 1970.
00:20:08 In mathematics little connection between a graduate students' research and his major
professor's research, so graduate student is not an integral part of professor's work plan,
contrast to lab science where a large team effort.
00:22:31 Math Research Center, when did it become a divisive issue. Question was how it
relate to applied mathematics, did it amount to having a second math department on
campus. PM too new to the faculty at that time to think of it as an institution.
Problem of math center was more of concern to senior faculty, this group more geared
to institutional thinking than to discipline.
00:24:46 People getting Ph.D.'s at the time thought purely of mathematics, and one place was as
good as another in which to do math. Grants were made available to the individual not
to the institution, so the individual was not particularly concerned about his department
and institution and now these were developing. Created generational tension.
Though of "Let us deny ourselves this or that because it would be good for the
department" was an unreasonable point of view to new Ph.D.s' but not to senior
members of department.
00:27:07 People hired now are given two year appointment specified in letter. No institutional
sacrifice expected since this is not likely to be the appointee's institution.
00:29:33 Are asked to concentrate on instruction, and a heartening feature of seventies is a much
greater concern for undergraduate teaching among new instructors. A consequence of
awareness in sixties that when these people were being trained universities had turned
their backs on undergraduate teaching and a resolve to change this. Additionally is the
fact that research support much harder to come by now.
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00:31:56 Return to math research center issue. Concern in early sixties was what existence of
autonomous math center on campus might do in terms of distribution of good things in
life. Suspects there were many false starts in early period in terms of what could be
done, but was not aware at time. Now one can look at department records and see that
so and so left in a particular year and speculate about the reasons. Only connection
with TA issue is possibly that unhappiness with it for other reasons.
00:34:59 PM was away 1964-66, in Berkeley so missed the two years here that were a watershed
of future events. Observing the free speech movement there, thought that such an
uproar could never happen here.
00:36:07 Describes film he developed. Purpose of film was to teach, but film was about math.
00:39:01 Came back as associate chairman. Teaches undergraduate courses.
00:40:34 Doesn't work with TAs because didn't want to be giving lecture-discussion course.
When first came was giving lectures, working under a senior faculty member who had
developed a beginning calculus course, using lecture-discussion format.
00:44:12 Small course format also in use but phased out in 1965. Describes Math 20 series and
Math series 60 of calculus, used up to mid-sixties. Renumbered then. Ceased Math
20, revised Math 60 became Math 221-3 series--math for math, engineering, and
science students. Another series for biological science students. Back to small
sections to use more faculty and fewer TAs because of over staffing of faculty.
00:46:34 End of side.
Tape 1/Side 2
00:46:38 But change not due entirely to need to use faculty. Has been continuing criticism of
large lecture approach to teaching calculus--faculty who didn't like giving large
lectures and who thought it was a bad idea for faculty not to have personal contact with
students.
00:49:01 Question of whether the critics tended to be the political liberal members of
department. PM thinks some correlation but not nice clear line of department.
00:49:22 How TAs were appointed and supervised. Up to lecturer in charge of the TAs. Not
discussed in faculty meeting. But word would get back to someone like PM if there
was gross misuse of TAs--e.g. house painting, or turning TAs loose to do all the
teaching.
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00:52:16 Dick Askey was in charge of TAs and was on Mulvihill Committee.
00:53:06 Didn't think much of Mulvihill Report, recommended what was already being done.
Math faculty wouldn't want to give a one credit course in how to teach for TAs.
Graduate students pick it up on their own.
00:56:33 A committee made the TA appointments.
00:58:17 Majority of grad students’ support was through TA-ships in math department. A very
small group were entirely supported by Washington.
00:59:55 Didn't attract students by promising TA-ships and then dropping. Expected to support
graduate students for five years, though perhaps didn't achieve this entirely. TAs may
not have been so sure of this as department, but couldn't have thought of it as a policy to
attract students and then drop them.
01:03:18 More on attitude to TAs in sixties. Most faculty insofar as involved with graduate
students were aware of their role as TAs.
01:04:33 Class size. Describes policy. Class size never got out of hand so department was not
hurt by the limit of 19 as were some departments.
01:05:51 R.C. Buck, chairman in mid-sixties. Consciously reorganized department to accord
with greater size. One project was to involve TAs in TA work. Had two TAs prepare
a handbook for teaching assistants. Good job, still being used--a descendant of it.
Had an orientation period for TAs. These have continued, and elaborateness and
success depends on who’s running it. Point of view towards TAs was they are
"ourselves ten years ago" thus to be given responsibility. Attitude was stretched thin
during TA strike year.
01:09:29 Comments on wisdom of decision to recognize TAs. Feels wise, though Young was
heavily criticized by faculty. Faculty was not consulted unless individual members in
his office. But if had been, might have taken along time and TA situation might have
deteriorated.
01:12:36 Beginnings of student demand for participation in the department. The major shock of
Dow. Some of math students involved. Then black student strike.
01:14:32 Not confronted by TAs as hostile group in math department. Math TAs were saying if
other departments were like mathematics wouldn't be need for contract. Tended to be
the message in other departments also. Re TAs hostility points out that being of an
intermediate generation had different expectations from some of older faculty.
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Philip E. Miles (#72)
01:19:59 Took demand for student power seriously whereas some colleagues believed TAs who
said was just bargaining talk.
01:22:26 Math department felt it had great rapport with TAs, at least initially.
01:23:25 Marketti's visit to the math department.
01:24:29 May have been three of four faculty who made covert threats to dismiss a TA by
expressing objections to TAs spending time this way.
01:25:54 No emotional sessions as in German and English departments.
01:26:45 Marketti's talk didn't convince PM.
01:28:42 More on events leading up to the formation to TAA. Faculty would ask Haslach how
the union was going. Shabaz proposal precipitated it.
01:30:29 Many math faculty felt a union had no business on campus, or at least a union involving
math department people; 5 to 25% were opposed but resigned to it. Majority thought
it interesting, mildly curious about it.
01:34:01 End of side. End of tape.
Tape 2/Side 1
00:00:00 Chapter 10. Hans Schneider was on a committee that had to do with it. Schneider
was chairman at the time. The educational planning plank of the structure agreement
was seen as a threat.
00:03:47 Notes the math department's Robinson Crusoe position in L&S. Very little contact
with other departments except through committee work. Less remote now.
Describes what separates math from physical sciences on one hand and from
humanities on other hand.
00:08:36 The student power issue--those who took it seriously and were wary of it. Not a
question of liberal vs. conservative but of hard vs. soft. The soft types were receptive
to student power, didn't think it through, didn't think head-on conflict was involved.
Hard types said more student power means less faculty power.
00:12:48 A problem for students was faculty tendency to want to be agreeable. Tendency to
praise but write a mediocre letter of recommendation.
00:16:04 End of side.
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Tape 2/Side 2
00:17:14 United Faculty. PM was a member at the time. On one hand student union gave
hopes to eventual success of faculty union; but student power issue, failure of United
Faculty to face it. United Faculty also having problem with non-tenured faculty issue,
more serious problem than TAs. Non-tenured caucus got its way. Liberal tenured
faculty failed to realize that non-tenured faculty needed tenured faculty but not other
way around.
00:24:14 In fall of 1969 increasing awareness in Van Vleck that dispute was not solving itself.
(TAA dispute).
00:26:03 The lounge--is for faculty and graduate students. Was separately funded as a place for
faculty to meet with "graduate students doing research" but in practice all graduate
students. And the mixture of faculty and graduate students occur regularly.
00:28:28 There were a couple of meetings designed to inform faculty about TAA. Room holds
seating space for 50 or 60, but with other chairs and sitting on the floor can get in 200.
About 100 there for Marketti.
00:30:04 Guesses 70% or 80% were members of TAA. Knew at time.
00:33:40 Math TAs saying that in math department things were not bad. Things on whole
campus should be as they are in math department with a few changes in details. We do
need protection. Administration is the real menace. You guys in faculty ought to be
on our side against the administration.
00:37:05 End of side. End of tape.
Tape 3/Side 1
00:00:12 John Nohel and Miles call faculty meeting to get faculty statements re position on
strike.
00:00:58 Faculty had been suspicious of educational planning clause as to what administration
and TAA's original intents had been; wording of clause fuzzy. Tendency of
administration to make decisions and start programs on its own that faculty should have
had a say in.
00:03:28 Richard Bruck wrote a letter of protest to administration inviting rest of math faculty to
sign. About twenty signed it (control of education should remain in faculty hands),
rest feared reaction of TAA members of signatures on letter. Chancellor sent copies to
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various departments including dean of School of Education, Donald McCarty, who
called newspaper conference math department.
00:05:16 Differences of math department and school of education on subject of education.
Education School doesn't believe in basic tools, math department does. Strike would
have great impact on math department. Thousands of students taught by TAs.
Would be seriously set back by strike.
00:08:06 Perhaps about five members of faculty might be expected to go on strike
themselves--tenured faculty (in fact, none did) committed to cause of unionism.
00:11:13 At meeting each faculty member was asked to stand up and say how felt and what
would do if strike. Turned out to be bad idea.
00:13:10 The view of some that the way to manage education is to manage newspaper view of
education for public consumption. What is actually done inside the university doesn't
matter that much, i.e. administration view to look after public relations first and can
always fix things up inside later on. So don't get faculty upset.
00:14:19 Assumes TAs knew about meeting, but they didn't make anything of it.
00:15:03 Faculty response at meeting was, let other people answer some questions--e.g.
administration.
00:16:13 Did math department faculty have a different views of strike because of number of
math TAs in upper echelons of TAA? Probably but not enough to matter. Math
department was not in close touch with other departments so little exchange of views.
00:19:43 About ten people volunteered to teach as needed. About ten more would do so if
absolutely necessary. Tended to be people who saw math in social context,
institutionally-minded, that is not the Robinson Crusoes. (The very single minded
mathematicians, faculty or TA, will not think of anything else but math.) Some would
agree to be responsible for their own courses where TAs involved. Others would do
no more than what they were doing already.
00:26:13 Had encouraged faculty members to find out what individual TAs were doing--not to
report them but to help decide how to run the courses affected. But first day of strike
didn't know what would happen. First day of strike checked every classroom where a
math course was meeting and told students present that would try to continue
instruction. In TA-taught courses never more than half present and sometimes only
two or three.
00:29:27 Hadn't realized TAs would set things up so as not to hurt the students--e.g. not test on
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all material, or make-up sessions. But makeup sessions difficult--arranging time.
(How makeup sessions are normally handled.)
00:31:51 The particular problem for math students when classes are missed--can't just omit
chapters four and five, may be needed in next year's course.
00:33:28 The elementary school teachers' training course.
00:34:58 Didn't have clear picture of dimensions of problem until near end of first week of strike.
Between 40 and 60% of TAs were (or were not ) teaching.
00:36:05 Had been faculty-TA meeting, called by TAA but earlier in semester, not just before
strike. Wouldn't have thought useful at time of strike, might polarize too much.
Lines too sharply drawn.
00:38:28 Idea that TAs striking on behalf of other departments but happy with math department
had melted away by time of strike.
Contrast German department, family-type
meeting. Emotional.
00:39:56 PM points out in early sixties when department still small might have had such an
attitude ("how could they do this to us") but math department had become much too
big, people at arm’s length.
00:41:05 Few women involved--one woman faculty member. In any case women who go into
math are not representative.
00:42:38 Reported TA attendance apropos of payroll--TA strikers off payroll, done at
department level. Description of all the classroom checkers--faculty, chancellor's
office, TAs.
00:44:57 Didn't send any details to administration, and weren't getting any instructions from on
high (contrast this spring, 1976, when waited for instructions-partly difference in
chairmen. partly felt what had done in 1970 not appreciated by anyone except possibly
students. Less sympathetic with TAs in 1976).
00:47:21 End of side.
Tape 3/Side 2
00:47:25 Repeat from Tape 3/Side 1
00:50:58 Plans involved extra sessions in evening but workable only for a week-or-two long
strike, not for a whole semester.
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00:52:50 In 1976 faculty members were saying, yes we will take over courses but want to keep
students for rest of semester. Realized how TAs had prepared students. Students
would not say going to work for a strike-breaking student.
00:54:54 Picket lines around Van Vleck an assortment of TAs, not just math TAs. One TA
locking all doors to building; PM going after him, unlocking.
00:56:16 Muehlenkamp at a speech to United Faculty had implied might be physical assault on
picket lines, so heckling a welcome relief.
00:57:14 Comment on subsequent UW architecture which always provides podiums.
00:58:25 TAA used to want to reserve meetings at Van Vleck, and faculty used to ask if could
send faculty member. Couldn't of course, but did permit use of rooms.
01:00:53 Had finally planned to pretty much take over classes altogether for rest of semester, but
just as ready to put into operation strike ended. Wonders if entirely coincidence.
Students were getting nervous.
01:03:11 Unpleasantness over choice of math TAs to be brought to courts. John Nohel got
threatening phone calls, and windows were broken.
01: 04:24 Mail delivery and janitors--janitors tried to be nice as could to TAs without getting
fired.
01:06:14 An earlier committee of faculty-TAs was a casualty of strike.
01:08:00 What TAs wanted to change--not necessarily large lecture courses.
01:08:42 Were TAs teaching about Vietnam and other issues in class room? PM thinks not.
Might have done it after class over.
01:10:16 End of side. End of tape.
Tape 4/Side 1
00:00:04 Long term effects of strike. Became aware had relied too much on TAs. Problem is,
keep getting more students. Faculty unwilling to teach pre-calculus courses. Not
what they signed on for. Since 1968 enrollments increases is largely at pre-calculus
level 3 to 5 % growth in calculus.
00:03:48 Institutional loyalty--loyalty to department--keep math faculty committed to teaching
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all math in math department, but doesn't mean want to teach pre-calculus themselves.
So can't staff these courses with faculty. And no real attempt to force people to teach
courses they don't want to teach. (Discussing problem of acknowledged over staffing
of math department due to heavy hiring in the sixties). Solution is to get faculty to
take responsibility for more students and more TAs. Thing is, not faculty's fault that
there are so many pre-calculus students.
00:08:17 The UW is struggling with problem of remedial instruction.
00:08:46 Other problems with TAs is that department preparing them for a job market that
doesn't exist. The only large need for recent Ph.D.'s is in teaching pre-calculus
courses.
00:09:44 Don't want a two-tiered faculty where some teach pre-calculus and others don't. Not
right. Recent Ph.D.'s just as good mathematicians as older people, merely younger.
Would be thought of as second class faculty. If a second class faculty, would
administration recognize as such or would it try to lump more of faculty into
second-class group.
00:11:27 No long range policy to solve the problem.
00:12:14 Strike ended confidence that faculty and TAs got along well.
00:13:45 Thinks a good effect that now accountable to a third party, can't say one thing here and
another thing there (e.g. in evaluations). Evaluating less frank but perhaps more
honest. Some comments on these effects.
00:22:07 But on whole department not very different. A listener in the lounge in 1966 and 1976
would not find differences related to TA strike. Changes would be new discussion of
job market and new perception of role of math in society. Discussion of this.
00:28:12 The 23-4 vote of censure on the MRC. Could be abstentions or people not present
(1973). A TAA called meeting.
00:30:15 Mathematicians don't like meetings, don't like giving speeches, don't like rhetoric.
00:31:40 The issue of language requirement. Twenty-five years ago essential to know foreign
languages for a mathematician. Changed in mid-sixties. Now 78% of publications
are in English. But still require students to be able to read a foreign language with help
of a dictionary. Latter part of '60s graduate school bowed out of foreign language
requirement business. Each department on its own.
00:35:10 Not as much translation of mathematics articles as of science articles. Need French,
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German, Russian, Italian, scattered others. Since math department in charge or
requirements can tailor-make it. If Graduate School setting requirements might have
voted to drop it all together since might not have fitted math needs.
00:37:51 Exam given several times a year. Student given an excerpt and a dictionary. If can
produce translation in an hour or two, ok.
00:38:40 Case of student who challenged requirement. Still doesn't have Ph.D. Discussion of
importance of not polarizing it on all issues --e.g. if polarized on MRC, would be
polarized on language requirement. Gives a mathematical theory for not polarizing
departments (ping pong balls on peaks and between valleys). Contrast English
department, badly polarized at one time.
00:46:21 End of side.
Tape 4/Side 2
00:46:25 Continues discussion of polarization
00:47:06 Mathematics concerned with non-applied math, but math can be applied--mode of
perception. Catastrophe theory another example; standing wave theory another.
(Discussing whether mathematicians run department because of being
mathematicians).
00:48:35 Discussion of the two math department members who became deans--Mark Ingraham
and Stephen Kleene. Ingraham hurt department by trying to avoid favoring it.
Reluctant to expand math department at beginning of the sixties, which was why so
many TAs brought in. Comments on Kleene's treatment of department.
00:50:36 Mathematics didn't go to the University Club so didn't know what was going on.
00:51:36 Discussion of problems for math department due to poor preparation of students in high
school. More than half of instruction in math departments goes into remedial courses,
courses that should have been taught in high school.
00:53:13 School of Education's position. Example of policy re elementary school teachers--say
they don't need tools, instead need to develop personalities.
00:56:05 Education School involved in new math issue, pros and cons, defensive about it. Math
department doesn't care what students understand, merely want them to be able to
perform. As consumers, recognize need for understanding. Still sorting out.
00:57:20 High Schools the place to go for change. But high schools no longer pay attention to
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college bound students. Counselors and administrators not concerned with students
going to serious colleges.
00:59:26 Math department can't tell whether problem is badly taught or insufficiently taught.
01:00:45 Problem when you hire a man who will only be here two years. Better to let go in two
years than in six. Know can't put on tenure. Can't know yet whether better for
individual to be at three colleges two years each or six years at one; the former. Not a
transferable skill to know the insides on one university well.
01:04:14 This year have hired two people with tenure, one with MRC involvement. Before that
promotion to tenure last made was four years ago.
01:05:19 In 1969 started the two-year term basis hiring. Four years too soon. When deans
began to notice, didn't believe it had happened. Said math department worst tenure
density possible (no assistant professors by that time). Moral: Don't do anything
before administration tells you to.
01:06:45 Was heavy hiring in 1960s good hiring? Could have gotten better people in '70s than
in '60s. But not possible to make long range plan in a state university. Not able to
hold positions open to hire people later on.
01:08:38 End of side. End of tape.
(Off the tape, PM commented that a Princeton math department had congratulated UW on quality
on math faculty in late '60s).
END
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