06 March 2003
Page 1 of 147
THURSDAY, 6 MARCH 2003
____
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 14:03.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe
a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS,
TABLINGS
AND
COMMITTEE
REPORTS
-
see
col
000.
NOTICES OF MOTION
The
CHIEF
WHIP
OF
THE
LARGEST
MINORITY
PARTY:
Madam
Speaker, I hereby give notice that I intend moving the
following motion:
That the House -
(1) notes that the Hon T S Yengeni resigned from the
National Assembly on Wednesday, 5 March 2003; and
06 March 2003
Page 2 of 147
(2) censures Mr Yengeni for his conduct in abusing the
protection
of
the
Chair
and
the
Rules
with
the
deliberate intention of misleading the House.
Ms C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, I shall move on behalf of the
ACDP:
That the House debates the issue of water fluoridation
plans in South Africa, which are going ahead although the
Water Research Commission has not completed its research
on
this
issue
and
serious
health
concerns
raised.
ACHIEVEMENT BY LOCAL HOTELS
(Draft Resolution)
Mr J DURAND: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
have
been
06 March 2003
(a) two
Page 3 of 147
South
African
hotels
made
the
Top
10
in
Travel and Leisure magazine's annual "Very nice
values" readers' poll; and
(b) the MalaMala Game Reserve reached
third place,
while the Cape Grace Hotel in Cape Town reached
fifth place; and
(2) congratulates
outstanding
enhances
these
two
achievement
South
Africa's
local
and
hotels
believes
popularity
as
on
this
that
this
one
of
the
favourite tourist destinations in the world.
Agreed to.
LEARNER'S UNPAID SCHOOL ACCOUNT
(Member's Statement)
Prof
S
concern
M
MAYATULA
reports
(ANC):
regarding
Madam
an
Speaker,
18-year
old
we
note
learner,
with
Lunga
Komani of Lungiso High School in Humansdorp, whose unpaid
school
account
of
R50
has
been
handed
over
to
debt
06 March 2003
Page 4 of 147
collectors. It is further reported that this amount has
since accumulated to R80.
The rights of learners to education is a human right which
is
enshrined
in
our
Constitution.
It
is
a
right
which
teachers, parents and especially school governing bodies
must
uphold.
This
ANC-led
Government
passed
the
South
African Schools Act, which provides, among other things,
that no learner should be turned away from school simply
because he or she cannot afford to pay. Furthermore, it
makes provision for parents and learners to be exempted
from paying school fees in circumstances where they cannot
pay, more so in Lunga Komani's case since his mother has
passed away and he obviously has to fend for himself.
We therefore call on school governing bodies and everybody
concerned to utilise our instruments created by the ANC
Government
learners
Lunga
to
from
Komani's
ensure
poor
are
that
inalienable
communities
restored.
are
We
rights
guaranteed
further
call
of
and
on
all
that
those
parents who can afford to meet their financial obligations
to do so diligently and unselfishly.
MTN MANAGEMENT BUYOUT DEAL
06 March 2003
Page 5 of 147
(Member's Statement)
Mr
N
S
BRUCE
management
(DP):
buyout
Madam
deal
Speaker,
suggest
reports
that
of
Government
the
is
MTN
using
pensioners' resources to enrich business cronies unduly and
in breach of good corporate governance. The public debt
commissioner has given a R4 billion loan to MTN managers to
buy Transnet's 18% of the cellphone operator at a premium
over
market
price.
This
is
both
unprecedented
and
unprincipled. As Transnet could not sell this interest on
the
market,
Government
has
shifted
the
burden
from
its
dubious transport undertaking to its pensioners.
Corporate managers are rewarded legitimately if they add
value or assume risk. The MTN managers have done neither.
They are the beneficiaries of preferment at what could be
pensioners' undue expense. If the MTN share price rises,
they will become obscenely rich. If the price falls, the
pensioners
will
carry
the
can,
for
the
loan
won't
be
repaid.
Nedbank directors who stumbled last year over criticism of
their purported extravagance must, after MTN's preferment,
be amazed at their own moderation. I suggest that justice
06 March 2003
Page 6 of 147
would be served if the newly enriched MTN executives were
to offer the position of public affairs spokesman to Mr
Tony Yengeni, who has taken this House so much into his
confidence. [Applause.]
TRANSFUSION OF HIV-INFECTED BLOOD
(Member's Statement)
Dr U ROOPNARAIN (IFP): Madam Speaker, last year a 13-year
old boy, Johan Stoop, underwent an operation on his leg. In
the process he lost a lot of blood, which warranted him
getting a blood transfusion. It has transpired a year later
that the blood used on him was HIV-positive and he has
since been infected with HIV.
This is not good news coming from two health facilities,
the
SA
Blood
Transfusion
Services
and
Pretoria
Academic
Hospital. They are supposed to have exhaustive measures to
ensure hygienic transfusions. We hope that there is going
to be prompt action to ensure that this state of affairs
does not reoccur.
06 March 2003
Page 7 of 147
APPEAL TO COMMUNITY TO ACQUIRE ID DOCUMENTS AND BIRTH
CERTIFICATES
(Member's Statement)
Mr W M SKHOSANA (ANC): Madam Speaker, in the past year, the
President made a call to all South Africans to join hands
in efforts to push back the frontiers of poverty. Each
section and department in the Government has to develop a
plan that will contribute to the nation's effort. Pensions
for senior citizens and people with disabilities in our
country, and social grants for children under eight years
of age, for now, are among such efforts to fight poverty
among our people. Many of our people are still not able to
access
what
problems.
identity
is
rightfully
theirs
because
Primary
among
those
problems
documents
for
senior
citizens
is
and
of
the
several
issue
people
of
with
disabilities, and birth certificates for children.
The central department which addresses this problem is the
Department of Home Affairs. I call on all people in the
Moses Kotane municipality to go to Home Affairs offices to
seek assistance on the matter.
06 March 2003
Page 8 of 147
The centrality of the Department of Home Affairs cannot be
overemphasised.
As
members
of
this
House
we
need
to
mobilise our people to go and get identity documents and
birth certificates. The staff in the Department of Home
Affairs needs to be alerted to this fact. We are making a
special call to the members of staff of the Department of
Home Affairs to go the extra mile in an effort to push back
the frontiers of poverty. Let our people access what is
rightfully theirs. [Applause.]
CALL TO METRORAIL TO IMPROVE PASSENGER SAFETY IN TRAINS
(Member's Statement)
Mr C R REDCLIFFE (New NP): Madam Speaker, the New NP is
shocked that another train passenger, Mr David Dunston, was
brutally attacked in a Metrorail train on Tuesday. This
comes after the Cape High Court ruled in February that
Metrorail
and
the
Minister
of
Transport
must
ensure
passenger safety on trains as it is their legal duty to
protect the lives of train commuters and that the onus is
not on the police to protect passengers.
06 March 2003
The
New
NP
Page 9 of 147
finds
it
unacceptable
that
Metrorail
have
indicated that they want to appeal against the court order.
There is no question about their responsibility to ensure
the safety of commuters. If Metrorail does not take the
necessary
steps
to
improve
train
safety,
they
could
be
faced with thousands of civil cases against them at an
astronomical
cost.
announcement
by
The
the
New
NP,
national
however,
deputy
welcomes
commissioner
of
the
the
police, Mr Andre Pruis, that the police will implement the
provision of 21 mobile units to help ensure the safety of
train
passengers.
This
should
be
done
as
a
matter
of
urgency.
Co-operation between Metrorail and the police can ensure
that South African trains are once again a safe and popular
mode of transport. The New NP calls on Metrorail to comply
with the court order and to improve train safety because,
for thousands of people, this is the only available means
of transport and they have a right to commute in safety.
[Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, there is far too much noise in
the House and far too many meetings are taking place.
06 March 2003
Page 10 of 147
CENTRALISED PENSION PAYPOINTS
(Member's Statement)
Prof
L
M
MBADI
(UDM):
Madam
Speaker,
the
social
grant
beneficiaries in the Eastern Cape have been experiencing
mammoth problems since the outsourcing of pension payments
to CPS and AllPay. They claim they were better off under
the
departmental
arrangements
service
with
would
providers
regard
to
officials.
rather
do
not
the
Those
that
bank
banks.
These
remain
with
inform
beneficiaries
dates
and
the
have
venues.
timeously
Consequently
beneficiaries flock to one point, with disastrous emotional
consequences when they are turned away.
In
most
cases
service
providers
do
not
have
accurate
numbers per paypoint and bring insufficient funds, to the
disappointment
centralise
of
many
paypoints
beneficiaries.
brings
The
hardships
tendency
to
to
many
beneficiaries, especially elderly women and the disabled,
who have to walk long distances. These walks sometimes are
through small forests or bushes. On their return they face
the risk of being robbed.
06 March 2003
Page 11 of 147
Centralisation results in long queues, exacerbated by the
nonavailability of facilities and resources such as help
desks, pay halls, toilets and water.
CAPE TOWN UNICITY OFFICIALS
(Member's Statement)
Mr
B
M
SOLO
opportunity
(ANC):
to
Madam
welcome
the
Speaker,
let
me
take
this
decision
of
the
Cape
Town
Unicity Council to appoint the first African city manager,
Mr Wallace Mgoqi. I further congratulate Mr Mgoqi on his
appointment to this position. I firmly believe that he will
utilise his skills and experience and serve the people of
Cape Town with distinction. Mr Mgoqi and the Unicity of
Cape Town have started on the right foot in turning the
tide by cutting his salary and freeing resources to be used
for
development,
unlike
the
DA
appointee,
a
certain
Mr
Maydon, who earned R1,4 million. Mr Mgoqi took a salary cut
which gives him less than half of this amount and reflects
his commitment to the principles of Batho Pele, to serve
the people and contribute in the struggle to push back the
frontiers of poverty. [Applause.]
06 March 2003
During
its
resources
Page 12 of 147
short-lived
to
a
point
tenure,
where
the
the
DA
abused
ANC-New
NP
council
alliance
partnership now has the serious problem of tackling the
challenge of ensuring the city's financial sustainability.
The mayor of Cape Town further demonstrated her commitment
to fighting poverty together with the people of Cape Town
by
ensuring
through
her
listening
campaign
that
every
citizen of Cape Town contributes to how the budget and the
IDP process of Cape Town should be run. We call upon all
city managers and mayors to learn from this: Put the people
first
by
ensuring
effective
service
delivery
and
development, particularly in the previously disadvantaged
communities. I thank you. [Applause.]
NEED FOR MORAL COURAGE
(Member's Statement)
Mr L M GREEN (ACDP): Madam Speaker, in 1994 our nation
elected to have a democratic society. As in cricket, we
very soon became major league players on the international
scene. Currently we are seeking to play umpire in the USAIraq issue. Yet, like every team, we have our Achilles'
06 March 2003
Page 13 of 147
heel, in that we disregard the weaker players at our own
peril. Such is our situation with regard to Zimbabwe.
The rule of law and the rights of democracy are rapidly
eroding in Zimbabwe. [Interjections.] Yet we have become
spectators on the sidelines, blindfolded as the demise of
our neighbour state takes place before us
In South Africa we are also facing great obstacles - such
issues as crime, corruption, bad service delivery, lethargy
and
complacency
towards
a
moral
commitment
to
lead
our
nation out of the grip of social despair. South Africans
locally and around the world desire a leadership that will
put our domestic concerns in order. The ground rules have
been established and we need to deliver.
It is time for us to show moral courage and to demonstrate
that
we
are
a
nation
with
a
future
under
the
divine
leadership of God. We are blessed with a people who show
keen ability to build a nation skilled in various types of
expertise. All that is required is a domestic vision and a
leadership
social
presence
ills
activities.
such
to
as
unleash
poverty,
this
potential
unemployment
and
and
fight
criminal
06 March 2003
Page 14 of 147
Let us not, like our national cricket team, wait for the
rain
to
determine
our
future.
We
have
all
the
right
conditions to achieve our goals, but we need to focus and
build on our strengths, primarily from a domestic point of
view. Instead of creating the right conditions ÿ.ÿ.ÿ. [Time
expired.]
MINIMUM WAGES FOR FARMWORKERS
(Member's Statement)
Mr C AUCAMP (AEB): Madam Speaker, in his very first state
of the nation address in 1999, President Thabo Mbeki made
mention of certain unforeseen consequences of the labour
laws
that
needed
attention.
One
does
not
need
to
be
a
prophet to foresee that the new law on minimum wages for
farmworkers that comes into operation at the end of this
month
will
definitely
have
devastating
unforeseen
consequences, not only for the farming industry, but also
for farmworkers. [Interjections.] Let me state it clearly,
Madam Speaker: The AEB is in favour of a minimum wage for
any worker anywhere in South Africa.
06 March 2003
Page 15 of 147
Die Bybel sê immers, die arbeider is sy loon werd. Dit is
egter die ``one size fits all''-benadering van die nuwe wet
wat nie ruimte maak vir die talle onmisbare determinante in
die landboubedryf nie, wat hersien moet word. Die gebrek
aan die voorsiening vir meriete, vir geskooldheid en vir
posverantwoordelikheid
ondermyn
produktiwiteit
en
ondernemingsgees by werkers. Die slegs 10%-aftrekking vir
behuising en vir rantsoene gaan die standaard daarvan laat
daal tot nadeel van die werkers.
Navorsing deur die Sagtevrugte Produsente Trust toon dat
die minimumloon van R800 per maand byna 60% arbeidsverlies
gaan beteken. Dit sal nie wees as gevolg van afdankings
nie, maar weens bankrotskappe en strukturele veranderinge.
So kan ek voortgaan. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs
follows.)
[Indeed, the Bible says that the labourer is worthy of his
hire. However, it is the ``one size fits all'' approach of
the legislation, which does not leave room for the numerous
indispensable
determinants
in
the
agricultural
industry,
that should be reviewed. The lack of provision for merit,
for
skill
and
for
post
responsibility
is
undermining
productivity and the spirit of enterprise among workers.
06 March 2003
Page 16 of 147
The mere 10% deduction for housing and for rations will
cause the standard of these to drop to the detriment of the
workers.
Research by the Deciduous Fruit Producers' Trust shows that
the minimum wage of R800 per month will mean a loss of
labour of almost 60%. This will not be as a result of
dismissals,
but
owing
to
bankruptcies
and
structural
changes. I could continue in this fashion.]
The AEB calls on the Minister to place a moratorium on the
commencement of the Act, in order to make certain necessary
amendments; otherwise you will have to apply damage control
again in two years' time, because of the clearly unforeseen
consequences. I thank you.
ATTACK ON CHIEF JUSTICE
(Member's Statement)
Mrs S V KALYAN (DP): Madam Speaker, the ANC's support for
the unsavoury actions of Zimbabwe's government continues.
ANC MPL Dumisani Makhaye's attack on South Africa's Chief
Justice Chaskalson and eight other Southern African judges
06 March 2003
Page 17 of 147
for expressing their concern at the arrest of Zimbabwean
judges
Chief
is
ill-considered
Justice
and
other
and
dangerous.
judges
of
He
hiding
accused
behind
the
their
independence and instinctively defending elements of the
Zimbabwean judiciary who thought they were above the law.
The
judges
pointed
out
that
the
usual
procedure
when
judges, including those in Zimbabwe, face criminal charges
is to hold an independent inquiry, followed by impeachment
if
the
allegations
are
found
to
be
true.
Instead,
Zimbabwean judges are being arrested and tried while they
are still sitting judges. This amounts to intimidation by
the
state.
department
Mr
in
Makaya
approves
KwaZulu-Natal
is
of
being
that.
His
former
investigated
for
corruption. Is this why he casts aspersions on our judges?
The ANC must repudiate this dangerous man. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: I apologise. I omitted the ANC. ANC, it is
your turn to make a member's statement.
DAMAGE CAUSED BY RAIN, WHIRLWINDS AND TORNADOES
(Member's Statement)
06 March 2003
Nksz
N
Page 18 of 147
MAHLAWE
zidlulileyo
(ANC):
Somlomo,
kwezi
izitshingitshane
ntsuku
zemvula
zimbalwa
nenkanyamba
zitshabalalise izindlu, imfuyo nezikolo kwinqila yaseOliver
Tambo
neChris
Hani,
kunye
nesithili
sase
King
Sabatha
Dalindyebo. Iingxelo ezingaqinisekiswanga zithi kuye kwakho
umhlali othe waphulukana nomphefumlo wakhe.
Uluntu
ngokubanzi
kodwa
ezenkcubeko
luyakwazi
yokuba
alukwazi
nenzululwazi
ukuqikelela
ingqikelelo
nasezilalini
ukuyilawula
imo
yemo
ukwenzela
kunye
yezulu.
yezulu
nolwazi
Kubalulekile
yezulu
into
imo
ikwazi
yokuba
enje,
lwemveli
ke
into
ukufikelela
abantu
bakwazi
ukuzilungiselela iimeko ezilolu hlobo.
Sithabatha
eli
balahlekelwa
thuba
ke
zizindlu
sivakalisa
nempahla
uvelwano
zabo,
kwabo
sinethemba
bathe
lokuba
uRhulumente wabantu uya kuthabatha amanyathela okuncedisana
nabo bathe bafumana eli lishwa, bakwazi ukuba baqhubekeke
nobomi babo.
Sihlaba
ikhwelo
kuluntu
ngokubanzi
ukuba
lufake
isandla
ekuncediseni abo bathe bangxwelereka sesi simo sezulu ke a
leboga.
[Kwaqhwatywa.]
statement follows.)
(Translation
of
Xhosa
member's
06 March 2003
Page 19 of 147
[Ms N MAHLAWE (ANC): Madam Speaker, in the past few days
whirlwinds and tornadoes have destroyed houses, livestock
and schools in the Oliver Tambo and Chris Hani district
municipalities,
as
well
as
the
King
Sabatha
Dalindyebo
area. Unconfirmed reports indicate that one resident lost
his or her life.
The public at large cannot control this kind of weather,
but culture and science and traditional knowledge can be
used to forecast weather. It is therefore important that
weather
forecasts
should
reach
the
rural
areas
so
that
people there can make the necessary arrangements.
We therefore take this opportunity to express our sympathy
to those who lost houses and property, and hope that the
Government of the people will take steps to help those who
suffered this misfortune, so that they can carry on with
their lives.
We appeal to the wider public to lend a helping hand to
those who suffered injuries as a result of these weather
conditions. I thank you. [Applause.]
LOSS OF SCHOOL TEXTBOOKS
06 March 2003
Page 20 of 147
(Member's Statement)
Prince
N
statement
E
ZULU
is
(IFP):
about
Thank
losses
of
you,
Madam
school
Speaker.
textbooks.
My
The
Government commission's report on the financing, resourcing
and cost of education in public schools has revealed that
R300 million worth of textbooks are lost every year. This,
the report says, is due to the nonreturn of textbooks by
pupils.
It
has
also
been
reported
that
this
monetary
loss
is
equivalent to 100 new primary schools that could be built
annually. This is an alarming state of affairs, and pupils
at Samora Machel Primary School in Philippi in Cape Town,
with an enrolment of 750, are taught under trees. We hope
that there will be measures introduced to overturn this sad
situation.
We
acknowledge
that
the
department
and
the
Government are committed to bringing about revolutionary
reform in education and this situation is foiling such a
noble cause. I thank you, Ma'am.
RETALIATION BY RAPE VICTIM
(Member's Statement)
06 March 2003
Mr
M
S
BOOI
Page 21 of 147
(ANC):
Madam
Speaker,
it
is
alleged
that
Mzimkulu Mngalane was stabbed to death by a female, Lulama
Gxelishe, on 1 March 2003 at the Orange Grove squatter camp
in East London. This was in retaliation for an incident
involving the gang rape of the accused, and the deceased
had
been
identified
by
the
accused
as
one
of
the
gang
members that raped her.
The sexual abuse of women and rape are gross violations of
the human rights of women. These are barbaric and cowardly
acts that must be condemned by all citizens. Where these
incidents occur, communities must work with the police to
ensure
that
this
barbaric
practice
and
behaviour
is
uprooted.
We
are
equally
disturbed
about
incidents
where
citizens
take the law into their own hands. It is incorrect for a
citizen, no matter how gruesome a criminal act might have
been, to act in retaliation towards those who perpetrated
criminal
acts
that
infringe
on
his
or
her
rights.
Communities and individuals must always report a criminal
offence to the police so that the law can take its course.
06 March 2003
Page 22 of 147
We have to be mindful that both victims and perpetrators
have rights, and that everyone is presumed innocent until
proven
guilty
actions
hands,
where
as
by
a
court
individuals
this
amounts
of
law.
take
to
We
the
abuse
therefore
law
of
into
human
condemn
their
own
rights
and
undermines the criminal justice system. [Applause.]
BLOOD TRANSFUSIONS
(Member's Statement)
Dr S J GOUS (Nuwe NP): Mevrou die Speaker, dit is miskien
nodig om die veelbesproke geval waar 'n seun MIV-positief
getoets het na 'n bloedoortapping in perspektief te stel.
Dit is tans 'n wetenskaplike werklikheid dat daar altyd 'n
statistiese kans bestaan om MIV/Vigs op te doen deur middel
van
'n
bloedoortapping,
ten
spyte
van
die
beste
toetsingmetodes.
Die
probleem
ontstaan
as
gevolg
van
die
sogenaamde
vensterperiode waartydens bloed nie positief sal toets ten
spyte
daarvan
dat
dit
besmet
is
nie.
Die
wetenskap
en
tegnologie het hierdie vensterperiode reeds na omtrent twee
weke verminder, en in die toekoms sal dit waarskynlik nog
06 March 2003
verder
Page 23 of 147
verminder.
uitgeskakel
Maar
word,
bloedprodukte
reflekteer
altyd
totdat
sal
'n
geensins
die
die
oordrag
moontlikheid
op
vensterperiode
die
van
MIV
bly.
totaal
in
Hierdie
optrede
van
die
feite
die
bloedoortappingsdiens nie, maar vir die persoon met wie dit
gebeur, bly dit 'n harde werklikheid.
Die Nuwe NP spreek sy meegevoel uit met mense wat MIV op
hierdie manier opdoen. Dit is juis as gevolg van bogenoemde
probleme
dat
bloed
van
hoërisiko
persone
nie
gebruik
behoort te word nie. Die moontlikhede van auto-oortapping
en skenking en oortapping binne familieverband moet meer
benut word. Byvoorbeeld, as 'n persoon weet hy moet 'n
operasie ondergaan waartydens hy bloed gaan benodig, kan hy
dit oorweeg om vooraf sy eie bloed te skenk, of om bloed
van sy familie te ontvang.
Bloedoortappings red duisende lewens, en sal dit steeds in
die
toekoms
doen.
Dankie.
(Translation
of
Afrikaans
member's statement follows.)
[Dr
S
J
GOUS
(New
NP):
Madam
Speaker,
it
is
perhaps
necessary to put into perspective the much-discussed case
in
which
a
boy
tested
HIV-positive
after
a
blood
06 March 2003
Page 24 of 147
transfusion. It is currently a scientific reality that a
statistical chance always exists of contracting HIV/Aids by
way
of
a
blood
transfusion,
despite
the
best
testing
methods.
The problem arises as a result of the so-called window
period during which blood will not test positive despite
being
contaminated.
Science
and
technology
have
already
reduced this window period to approximately two weeks, and
in future it will probably be reduced even further. But
until
the
transfer
window
of
possibility.
HIV
These
period
in
is
blood
facts
in
completely
products
no
way
eliminated
will
the
remain
reflect
on
a
the
activities of the blood transfusion service, but for the
person to whom this happens it remains a hard reality.
The New NP expresses its
sympathy with people who have
contracted HIV in this way. It is precisely as a result of
the
aforementioned
persons
should
not
problems
that
be
The
used.
blood
from
possibilities
high-risk
of
auto-
transfusion and donation and transfusion within families
should
be
utilised
more
extensively.
For
example,
if
someone knows that he has to undergo on operation during
06 March 2003
Page 25 of 147
which he will need blood, he can consider donating his own
blood ahead of time, or receiving blood from his family.
Blood
transfusions
save
thousands
of
lives,
and
will
continue to do so in the future. Thank you.]
LEARNER'S UNPAID SCHOOL ACCOUNT
(Minister's Response)
The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Speaker, I reply to Prof
Mayatula's intervention with a strong feeling of absolute
despair. There you have a situation of a young boy who has
to fend for himself, who lives by himself, and is treated
in this extraordinary way by a school and governing body,
and if I may say so, by the debt collector.
The
reason
why
I
intervene
is
that
it
is
vital
that
Parliament supports the enforcement of the law for the most
vulnerable of our people. The most vulnerable are those at
school. It is illegal to send this to the debt collector.
It is illegal for a former Model C school in Pretoria, as I
learnt today from a fellow member of Parliament, to charge
R1 000 as a condition for admission. It is illegal for a
06 March 2003
Page 26 of 147
school, as I read in a long report from the North West
province,
to
admission
withhold
to
reports.
teaching
and
It
is
illegal
learning
to
deny
activities
for
nonpayment.
Where parents are able to pay, the sins of the parents can
never be visited on the children. I think this is said in a
well-known book that people in South Africa take reasonably
seriously, and the sins of the parents are being visited
here. But where there is an orphan, or where the parents
are
very
poor,
exemption
that
it
the
is
an
offence
children
not
are
to
allow
entitled
to
for
by
the
law.
Therefore, in our report on the costs and the financing of
education, released on Monday, we take very seriously how
to
deal
with
the
situation
in
this
group
of
20%,
or
possibly 40%, of our children who attend schools.
This issue also affects middle-class parents. I get letters
from
middle-class
parents
whose
children
are
being
victimised, and there is no other word. So can I conclude
by saying: I shall investigate the matter. I shall refer it
to the Eastern Cape education department, and I think that
the most condign punishment should be meted out to those
involved in this - as we all know, ignorance of the law is
06 March 2003
Page 27 of 147
no excuse - including the principal and the governing body,
if they are involved, and debt collectors also, because
debt
collectors
are
part
of
a
conspiracy
to
deny
the
children their right. This is why I think intervention is
necessary.
LOSS OF SCHOOL TEXTBOOKS
(Minister's Response)
The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The second issue is the question
of school texts, and again I intervene, because this is of
enormous importance. We are one of the few countries in the
world that supply free school texts, and, of course, in
principle the schools are supposed to supply them to pupils
at the beginning of the year. Of course we have two kinds
of schools: We have section 21 schools, where in fact the
total charge of their budget, the lump sum, is given by the
province. They, in fact, are also guilty of not supplying
books. I do not know what they use the money for, but in
the provinces of Gauteng and the Western Cape, section 21
schools are not all coming up to par in the supply of books
to the children.
06 March 2003
Page 28 of 147
For the rest of the provinces, the province supplies the
books.
Books
should
be
returned,
for
it
is
as
the
hon
member has said: The amount involved can help to build a
hundred schools in a decade. So we lose about R300 million
out of a total budget, for school textbooks only, of about
R700
million
every
year.
Therefore
we
are
part
of
a
mobilisation, and this House should be too, because this is
public money, at the very important point of delivery, and
we're part of a mobilisation to ensure that school books
are returned at the end of the year. But I do not think we
can use the withholding of results as a punishment for the
nonreturn of books. Thank you very much for raising this
matter in the House.
I am afraid I do not have the details of our children
learning
under
registered.
reasons
trees.
There
which
are
are
not
Remember,
many
clear
schools
informal
to
us
have
to
be
school
set-ups
for
always.
Unless
they
register and register their children, these are informal
schools, and the province has no responsibility for the
payment of the teachers, maintenance of standards and a
supply of books.
06 March 2003
I
look
Page 29 of 147
forward
to
the
hon
member
supplying
me
with
information about children under trees - and that in the
Western Cape, ``nogal''! Thank you. [Interjections.]
CENTRALISED PENSION PAYPOINTS
(Minister's Response)
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, I would
like to thank the hon Mbadi for raising the issue of the
distribution of pensions in the Eastern Cape to the weakest
members of our society. Quite obviously I think that there
is something radically wrong there in the distribution of
pensions. But that issue, at the present moment, is being
looked into by the task team that is working there from my
department,
the
Department
Administration,
and
Education.
are
They
the
of
Public
Departments
dealing
with
the
of
Service
and
Health
and
problem
that
the
people of the Eastern Cape face. But at the same time I
would like to correct the hon Mr Mbadi, who thinks that the
cause of that is centralisation, as he has put it.
It is not centralisation that is the problem, but it is the
privatisation, generally, of the distribution of pensions
06 March 2003
Page 30 of 147
there, because, as the majority of this House has always
been crying, a private company has been given the task of
distributing pensions. The main thing was that we hoped
that by so doing we would be improving the conditions. But,
unfortunately, all companies that are doing that, that is
CPS and AllPay, are really not up to standard. There are a
lot
of
things
that
are
wrong
there
which
ought
to
be
supposed
to
be
corrected. [Interjections.]
Unfortunately,
the
same
people
that
are
helped are really finding it very difficult. That proves
beyond any reasonable doubt that some of the things that
the
DP
has
always
privatisation
necessarily
is
the
been
the
issue.
crying
answer
for,
to
for
instance
everything,
[Interjections.]
I
think
are
I
that
not
would
thank the hon member ...
The SPEAKER: Order!
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, can you
protect me?
The SPEAKER: Order! But you are running over time, so would
you bring your intervention to an end, please? Order, hon
06 March 2003
members!
Page 31 of 147
Are
there
any
other
Ministers
that
wish
to
intervene?
THE ATTAINMENT OF PEACE AND DEMOCRATIC GOVERNANCE IN AFRICA
IS A PREREQUISITE FOR THE REALISATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND
GENDER EQUALITY FOR HER CITIZENS
(Subject for Discussion)
The
DEPUTY
DEVELOPMENT:
MINISTER
Madam
FOR
JUSTICE
Speaker,
AND
members
CONSTITUTIONAL
of
the
National
Assembly, it has been said that if one empowers a country's
women, one empowers the whole nation. This must also be
true
for
the
continent
of
Africa.
If
one
empowers
her
women, one empowers Africa. In South Africa the promotion
and
protection
integral
to
Recognising
of
the
human
rights
long-term
that
women's
has,
since
development
rights
of
are
1994,
become
this
country.
human
rights,
mainstreaming gender, has been central to the sustainable
development programmes that Government has set in place for
a new and inclusive way forward.
We are all becoming increasingly aware that the development
of
Africa's
women
is
essential
for
the
successful
and
06 March 2003
Page 32 of 147
sustainable development of our continent. Quite recently UN
Secretary-General
Kofi
Annan,
when
addressing
African
leaders, observed:
If you want to save the African continent, you must save
the African woman first.
We
have,
since
legislation
that
women.
must,
One
1994,
are
set
in
designed
though,
place
to
see
many
empower
the
pieces
South
development
of
African
of
this
legislation within the context of the overall development
process. The development of legal frameworks that support
the empowerment of women must be seen within the context of
a housing policy that targets the poorest and the most
vulnerable;
within
addresses
rural
education
policy
a
and
land
redistribution
gender
that
programme
marginalisation;
insists
upon
equal
that
within
an
access
to
education for all girl children; and within an economic
framework that facilitates the access of women to resources
that enable economic participation.
Since
1994,
when
South
Africa
gained
its
status
as
a
constitutional democracy and international citizen of good
standing, the legislative review process has resulted in
06 March 2003
Page 33 of 147
the production of an unprecedented body of laws that lay
the foundation for the transformation of our society. Based
on
the
vision
of
a
nonsexist,
nonracist
democracy,
our
political leaders have made a conscious effort to put in
place gender-specific legislative frameworks to support the
advancement of women's rights. Our experience, however, is
that laws on their own cannot and do not change the status
of vulnerable groups nor do they automatically alter the
conditions
against
of
those
poverty
implementation
of
that
and
require
special
discrimination.
these
laws
and
protections
It
the
is
the
developmental
frameworks that support them that will secure a better life
for our people. We have therefore to narrow the gap between
ambitious legislative measures and practical delivery on
the ground.
Our Constitution exhorts us to free the potential in all
our
citizens.
fingertips
To
those
do
so
resources
we
must
that
place
have
at
been
their
very
earmarked
to
fight the scourge of poverty and ameliorate its impact on
the quality of life. Increasing the number of interfaces
between
the
community
and
Government
service
centres
is
essential, but this infrastructural drive must be supported
by improved service delivery in the spirit of Batho Pele -
06 March 2003
government's
Page 34 of 147
credo
for
a
quality,
people-centred
public
service.
Our President, in his state of the nation address last
month, had this to say on service delivery:
The effective delivery of the expanded services to the
people requires that we improve the efficiency of the
Public
Service.
Without
an
efficient
and
an
effective
public service, it will be impossible for us to register
the advances of which we are capable.
Balancing the dire need to develop people and especially
women against the backdrop of financial and other resource
constraints has become the lot of developing countries. We
have, however, come to recognise that the acute development
challenges we face in this country have strong regional
imperatives. We have therefore engaged our African partners
and
the
international
community
to
develop
an
overall
strategy that interlocks with the development needs of our
region.
The New Partnership for African Development provides the
architecture
that
will
sustain
and
support
a
proactive,
06 March 2003
Page 35 of 147
progressive
and
holistic
Africa
her
people.
and
global
acceptance
approach
to
Fortunately,
that
in
order
the
development
there
to
is
remain
a
of
growing
relevant,
development programmes must be rights based. Furthermore,
these programmes should be informed and motivated by the
need
to
realise
the
whole
gamut
sustainability
achievable
and
must
ourselves
when
satisfy
programmes,
but,
over
and
of
rights
contextually
that
relevant.
implementing
above
the
makes
We
development
obvious
political
rights that must be addressed, social, economic, gender and
environmental rights should also be mainstreamed into the
development agenda.
Policies to address the increasing ... [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Why don't your ... [Inaudible.]
The
DEPUTY
DEVELOPMENT:
MINISTER
Have
your
FOR
JUSTICE
eyes
been
AND
closed?
CONSTITUTIONAL
Certainly
your
ears have. [Laughter.]
Policies to address the increasing feminisation of poverty
on
our
continent
and
programmes
to
reverse
the
chronic
effects for African women of years of underdevelopment must
06 March 2003
Page 36 of 147
be set in place. The acid test for Nepad's development
programmes would be the degree to which the rights of the
poorest and the most vulnerable
-
Africa's women
-
are
realised in their application.
President Thabo Mbeki has emphasised that good governance
and the elimination of conflict are two key ingredients for
the successful implemention of Nepad. In this regard we as
Africans should not be satisfied merely with the absence of
war.
We
must
insist
upon
the
complete
eradication
of
violence, particularly violence directed at our continent's
women and children.
To eliminate poverty we must develop a global community in
such
a
way
that
the
potential
in
each
person,
each
community, each institution and therefore each country, is
optimised.
capacity
their
Developing
to
engage
capacity
as
people
is
opportunity.
individuals
about
It
and
is
developing
about
their
developing
communities
to
become
proactive agents of change. This approach to development
recognises the desire of developing countries to be active
participants in the development process rather than passive
recipients
of
prestructured
aid
packages.
This
approach
also presupposes the need for innovative partnerships in
06 March 2003
which
the
Page 37 of 147
strengths
of
the
collaborating
parties
are
optimised and the weaknesses are eliminated through mutual
co-operation and unity of purpose. And from this approach
will
flow
a
pattern
of
achievement
and
progress
that
constantly reinforces the collective good.
In just under a decade the transition from apartheid to
democracy has delivered real advances in gender equity, but
much remains to be done. Gender inequities persist in the
daily lives of our women, especially African women. Both
research and anecdotal evidence suggest that gender-based
discrimination here and in the rest of Africa is still
cause for serious concern. We are all of us starkly aware
how race, class and gender conspire to relegate women to
the very bottom of the human rights hierarchy. We must, all
of
us,
equity
continue
and
to
gender
accelerate
rights
the
drive
realisation.
towards
Our
gender
President,
Mr
Thabo Mbeki, has insisted on rights realisation for women
as a primary indicator of developmental progress. In fact,
our
President
considers
the
empowerment
of
women
to
be
``the litmus test'' of rights development in our country.
The emancipation of African women from discrimination is a
precondition
of
Africa's
liberation.
For
women
in
South
06 March 2003
Africa,
the
discrimination
Page 38 of 147
journey
and
towards
deprivation
a
has
society
started
free
and
is
of
well
under way. We have been inspired by such luminaries as
Lilian
Ngoyi,
Helen
Joseph
and
Parliament's
own
Getrude
Shope, and we are girded by the knowledge that there exists
the necessary political will to achieve a society free of
racism, sexism and patriarchy.
As
Government
prepares
to
legislate
on
black
economic
empowerment later this year, we must, as women, participate
in
the
discussions,
lobbying
and
decisions
that
will
formulate the nature of this legislation. We must do so
because we believe that black economic empowerment, like
women's
empowerment,
is
a
constitutional
imperative.
We
must do so because it makes good business sense. We must do
so because we know that by empowering the disempowered we
strengthen ourselves, our economy and our country. And we
must do so because we believe that our interventions will
make a difference.
Before I conclude, I would like to quote from an article by
Michael
wrote:
McCarthy,
a
journalist
for
the
Independent,
who
06 March 2003
The
Page 39 of 147
argument
for
empowering
women
in
developing
countries, and in the development process, stems not just
from equity, but from practicality. It is not only right
and just that women should be given a voice, have the
work they do recognised, and be treated with respect the
consequences
of
leaving
them
behind
are
dire
for
whole societies.
Madam Speaker, you might be aware that Mrs Zanele Mbeki is
currently convening a process that aims to promote peace in
our
region.
Sixty
women
from
the
DRC
arrived
in
South
Africa on Monday to participate in the DRC-South Africa
women's dialogue towards regional peace. During the threeday conference that is currently under way in Pretoria,
women from both countries and from all walks of life will,
amongst
other
things,
exchange
strategies
on
women's
integration within their own political party formations and
share experiences on how South Africa achieved a common
women's agenda during the democratisation process leading
to
the
1994
elections.
They
will
also
try
to
get
an
understanding of how women can play a role in the decisionmaking processes that lead government decisions and public
decisions as they relate to NGOs, CPOs and other public
institutions.
06 March 2003
Page 40 of 147
This initiative follows on South Africa's support of the
DRC peace process in Sun City and Pretoria last year. It is
also a shining example of how women can participate in and
influence
the
important
developmental
issues
that
continually challenge our continent. I am sure that you
will join me in wishing both delegations well during this
conference and in congratulating Mrs Mbeki on leading this
important process. I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms
J
A
SEMPLE:
supports
the
Madam
Speaker,
objectives
of
the
the
Democratic
African
Charter
Alliance
in
its
efforts to ensure that every woman shall be entitled to the
enjoyment
of
the
rights
and
freedoms
recognised
and
guaranteed in the African Charter on Human and Peoples'
Rights and the present protocol, without distinction of any
kind. It is clearly not possible to achieve these rights in
countries such as Zimbabwe, where peace and democracy are
not present.
The draft protocol to the African Charter on human rights
calls
on
all
member
states
to
eliminate
every
discrimination against women and to ensure the protection
of
the
rights
declarations
of
and
women
as
conventions.
stipulated
This
in
international
includes
eliminating
06 March 2003
gender-based
Page 41 of 147
violence
against
women,
which
has
been
internationally recognised as a form of sex discrimination.
The African Charter specifically repudiates the inequality
of
sexes
wherever
it
exists,
rejecting
all
notions
and
institutions of superiority and inferiority on the basis of
sex and affirming the equal humanity of men and women. One
of the worst forms of asserting superiority - and, it is
said,
a
way
of
minimising
feelings
of
inferiority,
especially where there is high unemployment and women ``no
longer know their place'' - is rape, and this will be dealt
with
in
greater
detail
later
by
my
colleague
the
hon
Waters.
It is further noted that discrimination against women is an
obstacle to the participation of women in the political,
social, economic and cultural life of their countries and
constitutes an obstacle to development in those countries.
It
has
greater
been
proved
socioeconomic
that
educating
upliftment:
women
children
provides
are
for
better
educated and nourished and the family has a higher standard
of living.
06 March 2003
Page 42 of 147
Discrimination by women against women further undermines
their
status.
The
members
of
the
JMC
(Joint
Monitoring
Committee) on the Improvement of Quality of Life and Status
of Women were not briefed by the Office on the Status of
Women before they left to present South Africa's case to
the Commission on the Status of Women in New York this
week. The excuse given was that the presenter was too tired
to drive to the airport. When the report was finally faxed
through,
it
was
found
to
be
of
very
poor
quality.
One
wonders what mandate such a report carried when it was not
even discussed with the very people who represent the women
of our country in this Parliament.
It is crucial that if women want to be taken seriously and
take their rightful place alongside men as equals, they
must at least stand together and support each other. Thank
you. [Applause.]
Dr U ROOPNARAIN: Madam Speaker, hon members, each segment
of the subject - human rights, peace, gender, Africa and
democracy
-
could
easily
take
up
a
whole
week
of
discussions on its own. I will give a broad overview from
my own perspective, and let me immediately recognise that
all issues are interrelated. We, as South Africans, with
06 March 2003
Page 43 of 147
our position and purpose, have an enormous responsibility
towards Africa. We are really like an umbilical cord. We
know that all societies bear the imprints and birthmarks of
their own past; Africa is no different, and Africa has
walked a savage road.
My speech is tempered towards a human rights approach. I
believe it is time to get away from that hardy old chestnut
of
Afro-pessimism,
which
says
that
Africa
is
inferior,
Africa is backward, Africa is unproductive and corrupt. Too
often have we seen pictures of an emaciated child depending
on some merciful charity. It was Africa's great leader who
once said:
Of all the sins Africa can commit, the sin of despair
would be the most unforgivable.
Africa needs to assert her humanity and not become a beast
of burden. I am reminded of President Mbeki's words from
his book Africa: The Time Has Come, but I would like to
say: Africa, the time is now!
Although I speak of the relationship between Africa and us,
I am not saying that experiences can be transposed from one
06 March 2003
Page 44 of 147
country to another. So what next, you may ask? An important
issue is the issue of human rights. It is about recovery
and
reclaiming
the
dignity
of
the
people
of
Africa,
especially the women who have been raped, women who have
been physically and emotionally abused, women who have been
maimed by conflicts, wars, genocide, and women who have
become refugees, displaced, and have lost their human worth
and dignity.
Human rights are too important to be a symbolic gesture or
just
a
mantra
to
chant
on
Human
Rights
Day
or
on
International Women's Day. Where there is conflict, there
is
no
democracy.
Over
the
past
few
decades
Africa
has
probably suffered more from armed conflict than any other
continent. Between 1960 and 1998, there were 32 wars in
Africa, seven million lives were lost and over nine million
people
became
refugees,
returnees
and
displaced,
not
to
mention the untold trauma, loss and suffering. Today many
are still fighting this war.
The
repercussions
of
these
conflicts
have
seriously
undermined Africa's efforts to ensure long-term prosperity,
stability,
democracy,
human
rights
and
gender
equality.
Instead they have brought on extreme poverty, human rights
06 March 2003
Page 45 of 147
atrocities and starvation. I think it was a Nobel laureate,
Egil Aarvik, who said:
There are people who are not satisfied merely to draw
attention to alarming trends, but who also devote their
energy and ability to turning the tide.
We need to move away from spurious self-interest and help
unlock
the
forbidden
opportunities
in
women.
The
most
insidious barrier to women is the lack of participation in
decision-making structures. The IFP is of the opinion that
the world needs a new social contract, a contract that puts
women on an equal footing at all levels, from the private
sphere to the public sphere. We as the IFP believe that
peace education is paramount and crucial.
Finally,
it
should
be
immoral
and
illegal
for
any
government to have a military budget that is greater than
its health and education budget. Let us refuel the torch
and help turn the tide. The time for Africa is now. Thank
you. [Applause.]
Mev ANNA VAN WYK: Mevrou die Speaker, die bywoning van 'n
byeenkoms soos die Rassemblement des Femmes pour la Paix -
06 March 2003
Page 46 of 147
die Vergadering, of byeenkoms, van Vroue vir Vrede - waarna
die agb Gillwald verwys het, van die Demokratiese Republiek
van die Kongo en Suid-Afrika, is werklik insiggewend. Die
byeenkoms
vind
plaas
onder
die
Afrika-Unie
en
Nepad
se
sambreel. Die doelwitte is onder meer, soos sy gesê het, om
onderling strategieë uit te ruil van Suid-Afrikaanse vroue
se integrasie binne hul eie politieke formasies en om die
winste van vrede vir die vroue se ontwikkeling na vore te
bring.
Hopelik
sal
die
Kongolese
vroue
wat
self
verskillende politieke en samelewingsektore verteenwoordig,
aan die einde van die weeklange vredesforum beter toegerus
wees
om
die
standhoudende
mans
vrede
van
te
die
DRK
sluit.
te
help
oorreed
(Translation
of
om
'n
Afrikaans
paragraphs follows.)
[Mrs
ANNA
VAN
WYK:
Madam
Speaker,
the
attendance
of
a
gathering like the Rassemblement des Femmes pour la Paix the Meeting, or gathering, of Women for Peace - from the
Democratic Republic of the Congo and South Africa, which
the hon Gillwald referred to, is really informative. The
meeting falls under the umbrella of the African Union and
Nepad. The goals are, amongst others, as she mentioned,
mutually to exchange strategies about the integration of
South African women within their own political formations
06 March 2003
and
to
bring
Page 47 of 147
forth
the
benefits
of
peace
for
the
development of these women. Hopefully the Congolese women
who themselves represent various political and community
sectors will be better equipped at the end of the week-long
peace forum to assist with convincing the men of the DRC to
conclude a maintained peace.]
The suffering of many of the peoples of Africa was really
brought home by the experiences of these women. They, like
millions of women and children, live in conditions devoid
of the most basic human rights as a result of war and
conflict, and are treated as prey and booty by combatants
and their sympathisers. The New NP wholeheartedly supports
the initiatives taken by Mrs Zanele Mbeki to assist the
Congolese women in their quest for peace and development.
This kind of action demonstrates in practice South Africa's
commitment to the objectives of the AU and Nepad and should
in fact be extended to other countries in Africa. In regard
to the DRC, South Africa sets an example worth emulating and
also,
Belgium,
by
which
the
by,
does
assisting that country.
to
not
the
previous
contribute
colonial
one
cent
power,
towards
06 March 2003
Page 48 of 147
This makes it all the more baffling that while South Africa
is prepared to go to intervene positively and responsibly
in the DRC, it refuses to do so for the sake of our own
neighbours, our own friends, our own families, our nearest
trading partner, Zimbabwe. Not so long ago we even invaded
Lesotho
at
the
drop
of
a
hat,
when
there
were
mere
intimations of political instability. Next door in Zimbabwe
there is more than political instability. People are being
systematically stripped of their human rights, the might of
the state is used to hound and oppress popular opposition
and the economy has been destroyed to such an extent that
people are actually starving and fleeing their country in
droves. South Africa could end up having so much on its
plate that we shall not be able to handle it if we do not
take timeous steps.
And the Constitutive Act of the AU spells it all out. Here
it is: In Chapter III of the New Partnership for Africa's
Development, entitled ``The new political will of African
leaders'', section 49 says - and our President has signed
this:
To achieve these objectives, African leaders will take
joint responsibility for the following:
06 March 2003
Page 49 of 147
Strengthening
management
mechanisms
and
for
resolution
conflict
at
the
prevention,
regional
and
continental levels, and to ensure that these mechanisms
are used to restore and maintain peace;
Promoting and protecting democracy and human rights in
their respective countries and regions ...
Restoring and maintaining macroeconomic stability ...
Suid-Afrikaners is bekommerd oor Zimbabwe en dit sal nie
weggaan totdat 'n duidelike antwoord gegee word nie. [South
Africans are concerned about Zimbabwe and it wil not go
away until a clear answer is given.]
What precisely is our Government doing in respect of these
solemn
undertakings?
What
is
there
to
hide
in
silent
diplomacy? Trust your people. Trust your Parliament. Tell
us what you are doing and what your plans are. If you can
invite women of civil society in South Africa to Esselen
Park to help you in your peace efforts in the DRC, you can
trust
us
and
invite
us
to
help
with
Zimbabwe.
South
Africans can be extraordinarily generous and forgiving. Try
us! We do not want our closest neighbour to implode. We
06 March 2003
Page 50 of 147
want that country to prosper. It cannot do so if you do not
implement your own undertakings in the Constitutive Act and
in Nepad.
As
'n
land
soos
Frankryk
weens
eie
belang
hom
teen
'n
muishond wil opvryf, is dit sy eie saak. Maar Suid-Afrika
se gebrek aan bewysbare optrede ten opsigte van Mugabe en
Zanu-PF kan hoegenaamd geen vertroue inboesem by Nepad en
sy vennote en die res van die wêreld nie. Inteendeel. Dus,
hoe gouer die protokol aangaande die instelling van die
Afrika-Unie Raad vir Vrede en Sekuriteit bekragtig word,
hoe beter. Nog nie 'n enkele land het dit gedoen nie en dit
is dalk net die instrument wat die Regering soek om hom uit
sy besluitloosheid te help.
Soos die tyd aanstap, besef 'n mens al hoe meer wat die
potensiaal van die Afrika-Unie en Nepad is. Die onderwerp
vir
vandag
se
debat,
trouens,
berus
op
Afrika
se
eie
doelwitte en ideale soos vervat in die Konstitutionele Akte
en die Nepad Program van Aksie. (Translation of Afrikaans
paragraphs follows.)
[If a country like France wants to associate with a skunk
owing
to
self-interest,
it
is
their
affair.
But
South
06 March 2003
Page 51 of 147
Africa's lack of proven action with regard to Mugabe and
Zanu-PF can by no means instill confidence with Nepad and
its partners and the rest of the world. On the contrary.
Therefore,
the
sooner
the
protocol
concerning
the
establishment of the African Union Council for Peace and
Security is ratified, the better. Not a single country has
as yet done this and it is maybe just the instrument that
the
Government
is
looking
for
to
assist
it
out
of
its
indecision.
As time marches on one realises more and more what the
potential of the African Union and Nepad is. The subject
for today's debate is, after all, based on the individual
goals and ideals of Africa as contained in the Constitutive
Act and in the Nepad Programme of Action.]
The role of women in the peace process and in conflict
management, prevention and resolution was one of the themes
of yesterday's discussion. South Africa gained its peace
because
the
leaders
sat
down,
agreed
that
the
conflict
should end and set about negotiating a constitution. We
laid a solid foundation, and it is time now to build that
house which Mr De Klerk and Mr Mandela got up to window
06 March 2003
Page 52 of 147
height. We should conclude that and take the roof where it
needs to be.
Applying
the
tenets
of
the
document
we
have,
most
particularly in our own country, would assist all of us to
build a stronger, better home for the peoples of South
Africa. It is all here, and if every politician and every
official would study this document and apply what there is,
we would be on our way to becoming a model state. I am
quite sure the private sector would join us in that. This,
to a large extent, motivates the consensus that is required
for South Africans to mobilise their formidable resources
to
join
forces
and
build
this
continent.
I
thank
you.
[Applause.]
Ms ANNELIZÉ VAN WYK: Madam Speaker and hon members, in
times of war and conflict there can be no talk of human
rights. What little attention human rights receive in such
periods is focused on prisoners of war, not the general
population. It is a known fact that women are often the
first,
the
unnoticed
and
the
forgotten
victims
of
war.
Sadly, the African continent is still racked by conflict,
war and civil war.
06 March 2003
Page 53 of 147
Many of these conflicts have dragged out over many years or
even decades. As a result a culture of human rights abuse
takes
root.
Therefore
we
cannot
merely
accept
that
the
signing of a peace agreement to end conflict will magically
restore a culture of respect for human rights. No, it will
take
active
culture.
and
Such
concerted
efforts,
efforts
like
the
to
establish
actual
such
negotiations
a
for
peace, must not exclude women. Women are the victims and
consequently they should be involved.
Women are caregivers and the centre of family structures.
This is even more so in times of conflict and war, when men
are engaged in combat away from their homes. Women are thus
equipped to establish a caring and responsible society that
respects human rights.
While South African efforts in bringing peace in Africa
must
be
welcomed
Government
to
and
actively
appreciated,
include
we
the
call
upon
the
development
and
establishment of human rights and gender equality in these
efforts.
It
prosperity.
is
a
prerequisite
for
lasting
peace
and
06 March 2003
Page 54 of 147
We must not talk of Africa as if it were another place. We
too
are
part
of
Africa,
and
we
have
to
ask
ourselves
whether the legislation and rhetoric in favour of women's
rights
expressed
in
this
House
translate
into
gender
equality in broader society. We must be honest; the answer
still is no. A vast majority of South African women have no
idea of their rights, or how to exercise or access them.
It
is
also
part
of
this
House's
duties
to
empower
our
people, also as far as their rights are concerned, so that
their
lives
can
change
in
a
meaningful
manner.
Gender
equality in Africa starts here. It is not achieved by a
privileged few women in Parliament being aware of all the
nice-sounding and well-intentioned gender programmes. This
House must actively legislate gender equality in each Bill
that comes before us. In this way, we further contribute to
mainstreaming gender equality.
This House must also go a step further. It must rise to the
challenge of true parliamentary oversight. This means that
our jobs extend to beyond merely rushing through as many
progressive pieces of legislation as possible. It requires
constant
monitoring
to
ensure
that
that
legislation
is
06 March 2003
implemented
Page 55 of 147
fully
and
translates
into
reality
for
the
majority of South African women. I thank you. [Applause.]
Rev K R J MESHOE: Deputy Speaker, the attainment of peace
and
democratic
prerequisite
governance
for
in
realisation
Africa
of
human
is
not
rights
only
and
a
gender
equality, but it is also imperative for the survival of the
millions of inhabitants of this continent.
There is no doubt that huge strides have been made in many
African
countries
culture,
racial
towards
particularly
and
gender
when
engendering
it
comes
discrimination.
a
to
human
the
However,
rights
removal
many
of
African
nations struggle with the basic fundamental prerequisites
for
peace
and
democracy
such
as
freedom
of
the
press,
freedom of association and religion and the right to oppose
the government of the day in a democratic, open and fair
election.
The continent of Africa, though one of the world's most
minerally
rich
continents,
is
a
continent
ravaged
by
poverty, war and political instability. Although colonised
and
plundered
by
many
nations
over
centuries,
the
vast
majority of African nations now control their own destinies
06 March 2003
Page 56 of 147
and have the opportunity to turn their countries into model
nations. However, in most cases the liberator and successor
has become the oppressor. Africa is a continent at war with
itself, and the numerous human rights abuses and wanton
destruction of African lives and property have primarily
occurred at the hands of its own people. The fundamental
problem of this continent is not a lack of intelligent
solutions, resources or finances or the weight of its huge
debt.
At
its
core,
it
is
rebellion
against
God,
which
manifests itself in corruption, theft, idolatry, endless
wars and a lack of accountability.
The
formation
of
the
African
Union
and
the
African
Renaissance can do little to turn the situation around if
dictators and oppressive governments are allowed to crush
democracy and its people with impunity. Clearly Africa is
far
from
cultivating
a
human
rights
culture,
as
is
testified by the unbridled human rights abuses perpetrated
by some African leaders. This continues the cycle of the
African ``Big Men'', or untouchables, as they are called in
some circles. The ACDP believes that nobody must be above
the law or be a law to himself. We must get rid of all the
leaders who think that they are untouchable. If we do not
do
that,
Africa
will
not
attain
peace
and
democratic
06 March 2003
Page 57 of 147
governance, which are prerequisites for the realisation of
human rights. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr G P MNGOMEZULU: Madam Deputy Speaker, in discussing this
important matter we are compelled to turn back the pages of
history
to
examine
in
particular
the
terrible,
horrible
legacy of centuries of colonial rule and domination. We all
know that since 1948 the worst form of colonial domination
was
imposed
oppressive,
on
all
racist
blacks
regime
that
in
this
country
introduced
and
by
the
imposed
a
vile system on the overwhelming majority of our people in
this country. It is also a well-known fact that this vile
system was declared a heresy or cancer on human society and
violated
every
single
vestige
of
democracy
and
human
rights.
It was during these dark days in our history as blacks that
this brutal system introduced the most pernicious laws that
governed our country. Virtually every law that was passed
by the racist Parliament was intended to divide and sow
hatred amongst the vast majority of our people. This period
of our history also saw the complete separation, division
and breaking down of our people into racial groups, which
led to the uprooting of millions of our people from their
06 March 2003
Page 58 of 147
original places of residence to remote areas. As a result
of
this
abominable
policy
of
separate
development,
our
people were turned into hewers of wood and drawers of water
in the country of their birth.
The notorious hostel system and pass laws which deprived
the African workers of the opportunity to lead a decent and
dignified
family
life
led
to
the
brutal
disruption
and
breakup of families and family life.
In spite of the degradation, humiliation and deprivation,
our people, with their strong tradition of Ubuntu, resisted
this humiliation and did not give up their strong customs,
traditions and belief in building strong bonds within the
family,
which
sustained
the
spirit
of
unity,
peace
and
human dignity amongst our people.
After the first democratic elections in our country, the
ANC,
as
the
authentic
representative
of
the
struggling
masses of South Africa, drafted and adopted one of the most
progressive constitutions which the world had ever seen.
This
Constitution
proclaimed,
inter
alia,
a
democratic,
united, nonsexist and nonracial South Africa. In keeping
with
these
lofty
ideas,
aims
and
objectives
of
the
06 March 2003
Page 59 of 147
Constitution,
we
have
solidarity
and
peace
White.
so
far
In
been
and
are
among
our
people,
as
our
working
for
both
transformation
unity,
black
and
policies
are
concerned, we have made major strides in bringing about a
better life for all our people.
In his state of the nation address, the President of our
country said:
Crimes against women and children have received priority
attention,
including
the
establishment
of
more
sexual
offences courts. Eleven of these were launched in the
last six months alone.
It is a recognised fact that crime, the abuse of women and
children,
violence
unemployment
in
against
our
country
women
came
and
as
a
children
result
of
and
the
abnormal and stressful conditions and environment in which
our people lived. These conditions, created by the then
racist regime, led the masses of our people into abject
poverty.
In an attempt to push back the frontiers of poverty, we can
state
with
pride
that
we
made
great
improvements
in
06 March 2003
Page 60 of 147
uplifting the lives of ordinary people in South Africa by
making provision for basic needs such as: houses, clean
water,
health
care,
clinics,
hospitals,
schools,
electricity and telephones throughout South Africa and, in
particular, in the rural areas. It must be clearly and
emphatically stated that this is no mean achievement in a
period of less than 10 years.
Apart from delivering these basic needs which our people
had been deprived of for decades, the ANC-led government
also passed a number of laws which have had a positive
impact on securing the rights of women and children, for
instance the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair
Discrimination Act, the Choice on Termination of Pregnancy
Act, the Domestic Violence Act, the Maintenance Act and the
Labour
Relations
Act.
These
and
many
other
laws
were
enacted to strengthen our state, country and nation.
Two more pieces of legislation currently being considered
are one dealing with the compulsory HIV testing of alleged
sexual offenders and the Child Justice Bill, which will
serve to further enhance the protection and rights of women
and
children.
These
various
transformatory
pieces
of
legislation will definitely go a long way in bringing about
06 March 2003
peace,
Page 61 of 147
stability,
unity,
prosperity
and
social
progress
amongst our people.
History teaches us that women and children suffer the most
in times of war. In view of the unstable continental and
international
conditions
which
pose
a
serious
threat
to
peace, it is therefore imperative to mobilise our people
against war.
In keeping with the principle of fostering peace, the ANCled
Government
is
spearheading
the
campaign
for
peace
through the AU, the NAM, the Commonwealth and the United
Nations. I want to take this opportunity to salute our
Government for its efforts in Burundi, the DRC, Iraq and
Palestine.
In
conclusion,
especially
men,
we
to
want
to
strongly
call
upon
support
all
and
our
people,
promote
the
Government's peace initiatives for Africa and the entire
world, and to condemn, in the strongest possible terms,
violence, rape and the abuse of children and women from
whatever quarter it comes.
06 March 2003
Page 62 of 147
Baby rape has become a common phenomenon in South Africa.
The reason for this is the myth, which is widespread both
in South Africa and beyond its borders, that sex with a
child or a baby will rid a man of HIV and Aids. Baby
Tshepang was only nine months old when she was brutally
raped in the Northern Cape town of Louisvale. Her rapists
thought that they were resolving a problem by brutally and
shamelessly raping this innocent and defenceless baby.
Furthermore, most men still live in the belief that in our
culture they have the final say in so far as family life is
concerned. They believe that in our culture a woman does
not have anything to say and that the final word is that of
the man. Sex, according to some of these men, is not open
for
discussion;
final,
and
no
the
decision
correspondence
of
the
will
be
head
of
family
is
into.
In
entered
responding to some of these myths and reactionary beliefs,
our justice system has prioritised sexual offences with a
review of law and stiffer sentences.
Lastly, I want to quote the director-general of Unesco, who
said, on the occasion of International Women's Day:
06 March 2003
Page 63 of 147
Until women are fully represented at the leadership level
of public, professional and economic life, we cannot say
that they enjoy full and equal rights. Women must enjoy
truly equal opportunities at each stage of their path in
professional and public life. This has to be the priority
of all governments, institutions and organisations whose
policies impact on the gender balance.
Thank you very much, Comrade Chair. [Applause.]
Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Madam Deputy Speaker, there is a new
wave of political thinking that continues to sweep through
the continent. It is nothing but the acceptance by most
African leaders that it is time for Africa to be given a
chance
to
experience
peace
and
democracy
if
she
is
to
advance in the cause of human rights and gender equality.
There are causes attributed to our continent's instability
and inability to establish democratic institutions.
The era of post-colonial Africa is fraught with internal
wars. It is in this new era of the African Renaissance that
we are now experiencing relative peace and stability. It is
time
that
we
utilised
the
newly
created
African
06 March 2003
Page 64 of 147
institutions such as the African Union to deepen peace and
democracy on our continent.
We
have
an
opportunity
to
design
these
democratic
institutions to address our own peculiar way of thinking
and
doing
things
within
the
broader
principles
of
a
democratic society that is underpinned by human rights and
gender equality.
For
many
years
the
issues
of
gender
equality
in
our
continent were presented as if Africans by their nature
promoted gender inequality. This to some extent appears to
be true on the surface, but the real picture is somewhat
different. For many years African women occupied a special
place
in
our
community.
It
was
during
the
era
of
modernisation that African family life was dislodged.
Yes,
peace
and
democracy
are
prerequisites
for
the
realisation of human rights and gender equality. In essence
a
democratic
society
is
expected
to
promote
nondiscriminatory and human rights values. We are confident
that Africa is on course to give birth to such institutions
and values.
06 March 2003
Page 65 of 147
Re tlaa lwa ka tsotlhe tse re nang le tsona go bona gore
bommarona
le
bana
ba
rona
ba
a
sireletsega
le
go
bona
dithata tse di ba tshwanetseng. Ke a leboga. [We will fight
with all that we have to ensure that our women and children
are protected and receive the powers that they deserve.]
Dr M S MOGOBA: Deputy Speaker, this is Human Rights Month.
It is appropriate that from this House we should beat the
drums of Africa on human rights. The drum is one instrument
in
Africa
that
goes
straight
and
fast
to
the
cores
of
Africans.
Our appeal is that all of Africa should listen and hear,
because, if there is one singular cry or need in Africa, it
is human rights. Our human rights records in Africa are
shocking or virtually nonexistent. Our subject today puts a
finger on the problem. We do not start with human rights,
but with peace and democratic governance, which are the
prerequisites
for
the
realisation
of
human
rights
and
gender equality.
We
in
this
country
have
just
emerged
from
one
of
the
severest wars of liberation in human history. It was a war
06 March 2003
Page 66 of 147
principally about land possession, but also about colour.
Both these factors bring God into the picture.
Why did God create me white or black? Is there anything one
can do about it? Can I improve my whiteness or blackness?
Can we leave the land that God has given us and go to
another one somewhere?
This unfortunately points the victims to a war that may be
eternal and therefore a situation that would deny us having
hope. I want us to look at the Sharpeville tragedy against
this
background.
redirection
of
The
our
massacres,
struggle
burnings
made
our
and
struggle
complete
become
continental and international. We owe our thanks to all who
came to our help.
A few more critical points need to be made. Apartheid and
white
supremacy
before
it
were
unfortunate
events,
but
ironically the oppressed achieved great unity during this
time. I have heard many blacks praying for the return of
apartheid to help us achieve unity and a clearer focus for
our struggle.
06 March 2003
Page 67 of 147
The period of negotiations and reconciliation was a trying
test for us. It was a touch-and-go situation, and at any
moment we could have slipped back into a situation of no
return. The title we have of a miracle state is somehow
correct, and many people really want to know how we got it
right.
It is not surprising that all of Africa are already here,
and those who are not here are shouting for one form of
help or another. Unfortunately this urgent appeal is in the
nature of a crisis itself because this flooding of our
shores before we have settled down and put human rights on
a firm footing could destabilise us and kill the one role
model that Africa needs.
In our words, we need a firm culture of human rights and
gender equality in our country to strengthen our image of
being the leader and role model. Our states in Africa that
are not very far from attaining ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I regret your time has expired,
hon member.
Dr M S MOGOBA: I am only halfway. [Laughter.]
06 March 2003
The
Page 68 of 147
DEPUTY
SPEAKER:
Only
halfway?
[Laughter.]
[Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Get more votes at the next election!
Dr M S MOGOBA: I'm going to get them. [Interjections.]
Miss S RAJBALLY: Madam Deputy Speaker, may I take this
opportunity
of
quoting
from
the
speech
of
our
former
President, Mr Nelson Mandela, when he opened South Africa's
first democratically elected Parliament on 24 May 1994:
It
is
vitally
government,
important
including
the
that
all
President
structures
himself,
of
should
understand this fully: that freedom cannot be achieved
unless
women
have
been
emancipated
from
all
forms
of
oppression.
It is in terms of the vision of the above statement that
South Africa is democratic, fair and peaceful. It is then
our Constitution that governs as supreme and contains the
Bill of Rights that makes gender equality and human rights
a law that shall not be bent. From there it is society and
individuals
that
choose
to
adhere
to
and
activate
such
06 March 2003
Page 69 of 147
rights. We have come a long way and success is visible in
many spheres as a result of this.
It
is
Africa
around
is
this
skeleton
structured
in
that
our
the
way
present-day
forward
South
towards
the
attainment of democracy, and peace is crucial if we are to
reach these values. The whole of South Africa should note
this: that, no matter the constraints of religion, culture,
tradition and so forth, this is possible.
Africa
is
a
heterogeneous
continent
and
human
rights
violations are nothing new. We have had our taste of them
for
many
torture
presented
years.
and
many
Genocide,
other
themselves
slavery,
fiercely
throughout
mass
harsh
Africa.
disappearance,
realities
Democracy,
have
human
rights and gender equality go hand in hand in attaining
peace.
The MF supports all efforts to attain gender equality and
human rights globally and finds that this is a means to
attaining peace and democracy. [Applause.]
Mnr C AUCAMP: Agb Adjunkspeaker, ons onderwerp hang nie in
die lug nie. Ons kan nie maar in 'n vakuum filosofeer oor
06 March 2003
Page 70 of 147
die verband tussen demokratiese landsbestuur en menseregte
nie. Ons onderwerp kom aarde toe met dié kwalifikasie: ``In
Afrika'',
spesifiek
'n
Afrika
uit
die
periode
na
kolonialisasie en deel van die globale wêreld.
Die
verband
is
vanselfsprekend.
Menseregte
en
geslagsgelykheid is die eerste wat in die slag bly ten tye
van konflik en onvrede. Met elke opstand, elke oorlog, elke
rebellie, elke etniese konflik is dit vroue en kinders wat
die meeste ly. Swak landsbestuur en diktatoriale optrede
deur leiers bring 'n land op sy knieë en dis vroue en
kinders wat ly. Wat Afrika betref, kyk maar net na die rye
en rye mense wat toustaan vir rantsoene in Zimbabwe en dit
is die honger oë van vroue en kinders wat jou tref. Bring
dan
swak
bestuur
en
outoritêre
optrede
by
waardeur
die
rantsoene gereserveer word vir Zanu-PF lojaliste, en die
belang van ons onderwerp word nog duideliker.
Kontrasteer die flambojante weelde van 'n Gaddafi en sy
gevolg met die duisende honger vroue en kinders in Libië en
u verstaan wat ek bedoel. Daarom is dit so noodsaaklik dat
die portuurgroepkontrole in Afrika nie net kan handel oor
ekonomiese
sake
nie,
maar
dat
demokratiese
landsbestuur
06 March 2003
Page 71 of 147
onlosmaaklik daarvan deel uitmaak. In daardie opsig moet
Afrika vir homself verantwoordelikheid aanvaar.
Onder menseregte verstaan ons ook nie net individuele regte
nie,
maar
ook
die
regte
van
taal-,
kultuur-
en
godsdienstige gemeenskappe. Op 'n kontinent met sy talle
minderheidsgemeenskappe is dit 'n voorvereiste vir vrede en
menseregte. Tog sal daar groot duidelikheid moet kom oor
die verantwoordelikheid van die staat, afgegrens teenoor
dit van die burgerlike samelewing. Hoewel elkeen soewerein
is in eie kring, kan dit nie toegelaat word dat praktyke
soos
genetiese
manipulasie,
onderdrukking
van
vroue
en
selfs kinderoffers en mutimoorde onder die dekmantel van
godsdiens toegelaat word nie.
Die AEB ondersteun die beginsels van Nepad en die Afrika
Renaissance. Die eerste verantwoordelikheid begin egter in
Afrika. Slegs wanneer erns gemaak word met ware demokrasie,
kan daar van menseregte en geslagsgelykheid enige sprake
wees. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr
C
AUCAMP:
Hon
Deputy
Speaker,
our
subject
is
not
suspended in the air. We cannot simply philosophise in a
vacuum about the relationship between democratic governance
06 March 2003
Page 72 of 147
of a country and human rights. Our subject comes down to
earth with this qualification: "in Africa", specifically an
Africa from the period after colonialisation and part of
the global world.
The connection is obvious. Human rights and gender equality
are the first to fall victim in times of conflict and the
absence
of
rebellion,
children
peace.
every
who
With
every
ethnic
suffer
revolt,
conflict
the
it
most.
every
is
Poor
war,
the
every
women
governance
and
and
dictatorial actions by leaders bring a country to its knees
and it is the women and children who suffer. As far as
Africa is concerned, just look at the rows and rows of
people who are queuing up for rations in Zimbabwe and it is
the hungry eyes of women and children that hit one. Add
poor governance and authoritarian actions through which the
rations
are
reserved
for
Zanu-PF
loyalists,
and
the
and
his
interest of our subject becomes even clearer.
Contrast
the
flamboyant
luxury
of
a
Gaddafi
entourage with the thousands of hungry women and children
in Libya and you will understand what I mean. For that
reason it is so essential that the peer control group in
Africa
should
not
only
be
able
to
deal
with
economic
06 March 2003
affairs,
but
Page 73 of 147
that
democratic
governance
of
the
country
should also be an inseparable part of it. In that regard
Africa must accept responsibility for itself.
We
not
only
understand
human
rights
to
mean
individual
rights, but also the rights of linguistic, cultural and
religious communities. On a continent with many minority
groups
it
is
Nevertheless,
a
a
condition
great
deal
for
peace
of
clarity
and
human
must
be
rights.
obtained
about the responsibility of the state, as opposed to that
of civil society. Although each is sovereign in its own
circle,
one
cannot
manipulation,
sacrifices
and
allow
suppression
muti
practices
of
murders
women
to
take
such
as
and
even
place
genetic
under
child
the
protection of religion.
The AEB supports the principles of Nepad and the African
Renaissance. The first responsibility, however, starts in
Africa. Only once real democracy is taken seriously can
there be any question of human rights and gender equality.
I thank you.]
06 March 2003
Page 74 of 147
Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, it is a great honour for me to
be speaking in this debate on gender equality today as a
male.
A
great
woman
once
said:
``In
politics,
if
you
want
something said, ask a man; if you want anything done, ask a
woman.'' I am in fact quoting Margaret Thatcher. I would
like to add to that quote: In life, if you want anything
said, ask a man; if you want anything done, ask a woman.
Only a fool would say there has been little or no progress
with regard to gender equality since the 1994 election.
Many strides have been made and many more still have to be
taken. Parliament is a far cry from the years when only one
woman
sat
in
these
benches.
Helen
Suzman
sat
in
this
Chamber on her own for eight years. As the only woman, the
only liberal and the only anti-apartheid MP, Helen Suzman
knew exactly what it was like to be a woman in a so-called
man's world.
But still, the more things change, the more they stay the
same. We have yet to have the first female head of any
African country. Who knows, maybe we will be the first. I
look forward to seeing women taking their rightful place as
06 March 2003
Page 75 of 147
heads of political parties, and a woman as a head of this
Government in the future.
The Draft Protocol to the African Charter on Human and
Peoples' Rights of Women in Africa promotes gender equality
throughout Africa. However, no law or protocol is worth the
paper it is written on if it cannot be enforced. A glaring
example of this is the case of Amina Lawal, a Nigerian
woman who bore a child out of wedlock and was sentenced to
death by stoning for adultery. Again our Government remains
silent on the issue.
The protocol outlaws gender-based violence such as rape.
[Interjections.]
You remain silent and that's a fact.
In South Africa over 50 000 women and 22 000 children are
raped every year. No one can say that women are free in
this country. They are prisoners of fear. Every time they
leave their homes and go to work, school or church, they
live in fear of being raped. These figures are reported
crimes only, and they reflect the situation on the ground that eight women, girls and babies are raped every hour in
06 March 2003
Page 76 of 147
this country. This is a crime committed by men against
women.
Apart from the horrific trauma a person must go through
after
being
victims,
as
raped,
the
there
justice
is
system
little
-
and
comfort
I'm
for
sure
the
many
hon
Deputy Minister will agree with me - resembles a field of
land mines waiting to explode at any time as the victim
tries in vain to obtain a successful conviction. Less than
10% of all rapes in this country result in a successful
conviction. That means 90% of rapists get away with it. If
we were all back at school, the rapists would score an A on
their report cards, and the victims would fail dismally.
And the hon Deputy Minister calls this empowerment.
A national survey on violence against women revealed the
following. The seriousness of the problem has, since 1994,
been
acknowledged
at
the
highest
levels
of
government,
evidenced in many speeches, policy statements, strategies
and legislation. Violence against women is also the only
focus
area
that
has
consistently
been
included
in
the
guidelines and funding frameworks for almost every foreign
donor.
06 March 2003
Despite
the
Page 77 of 147
level
of
attention,
three
factors
were
identified as stumbling blocks to combating the wave of
violence against women. The first is that resources and
energy have too often been wasted on debates about the
extent of the problem and how to measure it. The second is
that there are too few projects that aim systematically to
monitor and evaluate the impact of the different strategies
and responses. This is unfortunate, as our scarce resources
need to be directed to those projects that are likely to
produce the best results. And thirdly, many of the efforts
of both governmental and nongovernmental organisations to
research and assist survivors of violence have been focused
on metropolitan areas. I took that from the book Violence
Against Women, published last year.
Another factor that will ensure that many women remain in
the grip of poverty is that of HIV/Aids. Currently HIV/Aids
infects more women than it does men, as it is easier for
women to contract the disease due to biological, social and
economic patterns. The current Government's response to the
pandemic is to send a mixed bag of messages - a ``Liquorice
Allsorts'' response to what is the greatest killing machine
this country has ever known.
06 March 2003
Our
Government
Page 78 of 147
spends
more
time
in
court
fighting
the
messenger than being in the field combating the disease.
The hon Deputy Minister of Justice talks about empowerment
of
women.
However,
when
Mugabe's
thugs
rampaged
through
Zimbabwe raping suspected MDC supporters, our Government
remained
silent
on
that
issue.
So
much
for
empowerment
again, hon Deputy Minister.
According to the book AIDS: The Challenge for South Africa,
South Africa has the largest number of HIV-infected people
of any country in the world. The only nation that comes
close in actual numbers is India, with a population of 1
billion, compared to our 42 million.
With
approximately
2,5
million
women
facing
the
death
sentence in our country through the Government's refusal to
treat HIV-infected people, many people, including myself,
are
calling
it
state-sponsored
genocide.
Another
contributing factor to the spread of HIV is that many men
still believe that by raping a virgin you will be cured of
HIV. This could not be further from the truth. All you are
doing is sentencing an innocent child to death.
06 March 2003
Page 79 of 147
What the HIV pandemic does mean for women, though, is that
when
mothers
households.
die
Many
young
of
girls
them
take
leave
over
the
school,
running
destroying
of
any
chance of furthering their education, and accept the fact
that
they
will
probably
have
the
same
fate
as
their
mothers.
Men in South Africa have to change their attitudes towards
women. They are not beating-boards or sexual objects, and
unless we as men make a determined effort to change, the
women of our country will never be truly free and neither
will we. I thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr
B
M
DOUGLAS:
Madam
Deputy
Speaker,
I
think
that
my
colleagues who spoke before me have really done justice to
this. Minister, so to speak, this is the yawning time of
the debate, but nevertheless I shall perhaps focus more on
the legacy and the transgenerative effects of colonialism
on this debate of today.
I am thinking of the body politic of Africa. What worms are
within the entrails - as Rousseau would like to have me say
- in this body politic and how do we expel them? Yes, it is
true that the agenda for peace and security in Africa is
06 March 2003
Page 80 of 147
inescapably tied to humane governance, social, cultural and
economic
equity,
human
rights
and
democracy.
I
want
to
compare it to a body: When I talk about the body politic I
want us to think of a body. In this instance, I'm thinking
of when the brain doesn't give the message to the heart to
pump the blood. The lungs then won't function, the kidneys
won't perform their excretory function and at the end of
the day the whole body will collapse. In this instance,
after the collapse of a body a postmortem has to be done.
That
is
why
I
want
to
come
to
colonialism,
because
a
postmortem indeed reveals - according to Prof Nagan - in
Africa that Africa has been exploited by historical forces
whose collective legacies, especially conflict, are still
having lingering transgenerational effects because of the
overthrowing of forms of authority, economic and political
dislocation,
physical
cultural
abuse,
transmutated
deprivation,
religious
disenfranchisement,
into
the
body
politic
etc.
of
conversion,
This
so
actually
many
new
democracies in Africa right now.
I don't want to mention what happened in the DRC during
Belgian rule, where over 50 million people perished, or in
Algeria
where
French
institutionalised
policies
and
practices of state terror have in reaction unleashed more
06 March 2003
revolutionary
Page 81 of 147
violence,
again
resulting
now
in
the
institutionalisation of the expectation of violence still
being prevalent.
Let's
go
back
superpower
to
the
support
Cold
War.
immeasurably
Seductive
protracted
embraces
for
conflicts
in
Africa, and I can mention what Robert Sobukwe said. He said
that this wooing process occurs at a time when the whole
continent of Africa is in labour, suffering the pangs of
birth, and everybody is looking anxiously to see ukuthi
iyozala nkomoni [what the result will be]. Mother Africa
nearly had a nervous breakdown when she gave birth to Amin,
Leopold
Senghor,
Someone
said
Houphouet-Boigny,
that
the
Mobutu
superpowers
of
and
the
Verwoerd.
time
were
transporting and localising the theatre of the Cold War
from the faraway continents to Africa.
One should also not forget the consequences of post-war
Liberia,
Sierra
Leone
and
other
African
countries
with
colonially dominated mining enterprises where diamonds and
other minerals became the currency for the support of the
murder of boys and fathers and children. Let's not talk
about Saro-Wiwa, or Patrice Lumumba or other breadwinners
06 March 2003
or
about
Page 82 of 147
the
nonintervention
of
the
United
Nations
and
way
the
other powers in the Rwandan genocide.
Before
I
become
an
apologist
for
whichever
or
devil's advocate asking for mitigation of sentence in the
African Nuremburg trial, let me also ask for reasons that
might
have
prompted
Angola,
Namibia
and
Zimbabwe's
adventure into the DRC, or for what the 5th Brigade did in
Matabeleland
there
a
in
balm
Zimbabwe.
in
The
Gilead?''
prophet
Is
the
Isaiah
asks:
``Is
presupposition
an
axiomatic truth that a democratic state will necessarily
engage in good governance?
Are
society
and
social
organisation
structured
in
a
complementary way with regard to the problems of conflict
and
prevention,
as
well
as
developmental
imperatives
in
South Africa, or are we as Africans not simply responding
to the cancerous limbs by putting plaster on them rather
than amputating them? The Universal Declaration of Human
Rights warns that if humanity is to prevent the scourge of
war
and
rebellion,
there
must
be
universal
respect
for
human rights, peace and justice. Democracy and human rights
are interdependent. The compromising of peace accelerates
the process of human rights violation.
06 March 2003
Let
us
accept
Page 83 of 147
the
challenge
from
our
President
of
the
country when he said in his opening address to Parliament
in 2001:
The day will dawn when we, as Africans, will, as all our
people
desire,
restore
the
situation
that
obtained
at
periods now dimmed by the mists of time, when Africans
were in the vanguard of the advance towards higher levels
of civilisation.
Asazi ukuthi iyozala nkomoni kwi-Nepad. [We do not know
what the results of Nepad will be.] Thank you.
Ms
T
R
MODISE:
Deputy
Speaker,
I
do
believe
that
the
attainment of peace and democratic governance in Africa is
a
prerequisite
for
the
realisation
of
human
rights
and
gender equality for her citizens.
My colleagues have come here and they have spoken at length
about the steps that South Africa has taken since 1994 to
improve the quality of life and status of women. They have
also looked at the instruments that we have established to
bring
equality.
They
have
also
spoken
about
the
06 March 2003
Page 84 of 147
shortcomings in some of these instruments. They have also
referred to a number of pieces of legislation that we have
passed to try and rectify this. A number of them have also
spoken about the rights of the girl child as opposed to
those of the boy child.
I believe that our definition of peace should include not
just the absence of war and conflict, but also the right to
expect and receive quality service and respect. We have the
right to live without fear as women, we have the right to
express ourselves in the many languages of our people, we
have right to enjoy the many cultures of Africa without
fear
or
prejudice.
We
must
be
dignified,
and
we
must
respect one another's views and accept that as women we are
not homogeneous and we have the right to differ and to
express these differences in the various aspects of our
lives.
Peace cannot exist without stable conditions for law and
order and for the respect of human rights. Peace cannot
exist only at certain times and at certain places. Women
have the right to feel safe anywhere and everywhere. The
violence
that
we
experience
workplaces must stop.
in
our
houses
and
at
our
06 March 2003
Page 85 of 147
Continental peace cannot exist without common beliefs and
commitments
deserve
batho
to
good
ba
good
governance.
governments
bewe
kwa
that
pele.
African
will
[Put
heed
the
women
want
their
needs.
people
first.]
and
A
Good
government would emphasise good services to the people, a
government that will be accountable to its people and a
government
that
will
avail
itself
to
scrutiny
by
its
people.
We
therefore
governance
suggest
and
that
respect
one
for
of
human
the
measures
rights
of
should
be
good
the
extent to which African states recognise women's rights and
integrate them into their understanding of what are termed
human rights.
Mr G B D McINTOSH: What about polygamy?
Ms T R MODISE: I am coming to that. Peace cannot exist when
resource allocations remain skewed. Democracy must mean the
ability of the majority to participate in the political,
social
and
economic
life
of
their
country.
There
is
therefore a need to empower people to be equal. If there is
no
equal
democratic
access
to
practices?
participation,
If
the
can
conditions
of
we
speak
most
of
African
06 March 2003
Page 86 of 147
women are such that equal participation will be limited,
can
we
speak
of
democracy?
We
are
the
majority
on
the
continent, we are also the poorest, we are also the most
illiterate, victims of war that we do not begin, victims of
rape, of emotional, physical and financial abuse. And yet
the world says it is going forward, and we African women
seem to be standing in one place and not catching up with
our male counterparts.
That is why in December I was amongst a small group of
African women that went and had talks with the World Bank
and insisted that criteria to finance the projects of Nepad
must be revised and that the benefiting of native women
must be one of those criteria. It is therefore necessary
for African leaders to listen to African women. We are,
after all, in the majority.
South
Africa
has
laid
a
firm
foundation
to
eradicate
corruption in the public and private sector. Is it possible
for us to multiply the effects of what we have put into
South Africa for the rest of Africa? Is it possible to have
continental moral regeneration programmes that will help us
develop common values and standards? Is it the right of the
minority to take decisions about the fate of the majority
06 March 2003
Page 87 of 147
with continued impunity? Is it then not time for African
women to call on our men and our leaders to stop delaying
our development by engaging in senseless wars that destroy
our
land's
futures
ability
of
our
to
produce
children
and
food,
reduce
that
us
destroy
the
sexual
and
to
economic slaves? Is it not time for Africa to listen to
women? We want our singing back, we want our laughter back,
we want our children's dreams, we want to till our lands.
And
we
Nigerian,
demand
that
Senegalese,
respect
DRC,
return
for
Burundian,
the
Sudanese,
Somalian,
Sierra
Leonean and Liberian women.
Africa cannot continue to hide behind religious laws and
cultural practices that exclude women from the decisionmaking structures of our continent. We cannot be used as
adornment and decorations forever. African women must talk
about
power
relations
or
else
the
dream
of
an
African
Renaissance will remain futile and but a dream. [Applause.]
We must honestly discuss whether we must continue to accept
the number of wives a man has as a yardstick of his power,
his economic status and his sexual prowess. Do we want that
as African women? [Interjections.]
06 March 2003
Our
Page 88 of 147
Constitution
nonsexist
and
sets
out
nonracist
our
South
objectives
Africa.
as
These
a
united,
noble
ideas
must be transplanted to the rest of the continent. Had we
done this in time, maybe we would not have had the genocide
in both Burundi and Rwanda.
African women are still subjected to more restrictions than
their men, and girl children are still not exposed to equal
school opportunities. So how can we look towards an Africa
of tomorrow that is without prejudice, if we do not start
correcting
expected
these
to
play
things?
as
The
African
roles
women
that
are
we
still
still
are
largely
determined by the character and orientation of the ruling
majorities. Is this the way ahead? Is the way ahead better
than the past, or are we still marking time? Yes, it is
time for the African women to move forward and to romp to
equality and democracy, but to get there we must use our
rights to access, to participate in, economic and social
activities in our countries. We must utilise the education
opportunities
and
we
must
exercise
our
freedoms
of
association and expression to be where we need to be as
women and so say what we need to say.
06 March 2003
Page 89 of 147
The fourth pillar of the struggle against apartheid was the
mobilisation of international support and solidarity. We
must
therefore
observe
International
Women's
Day
today,
remembering our sisters in Israel, in Palestine. We must
also express our fears about the possible war against Iraq.
We are not only worried about the possible loss of life and
property, we are worried about the effects, the impact on
our
lands,
we
are
worried
that
Africa's
dreams
of
development for her women might be forced to be delayed.
We are worried about the tyranny that we saw unleashed.
When the world expresses its disagreement against the war,
is it not scandalous that some people do not listen? When
women all over the world offer themselves as human shields,
is it not time to listen? Must we go and bare our nakedness
to Mr Bush before he will listen? Maybe he will understand
that
the
war
will
not
only
deprive
these
women
in
the
Middle East, it will also reduce their lives and their
dignity. It will also unleash hardships and reverse all the
little
gains
women
have
made
all
over
the
world.
The
possible war with Iraq delays our development. It means
that
democratic
processes
will
be
delayed
and
therefore
that the real recognition of the rights of women and the
integration thereof into development programmes will not
06 March 2003
Page 90 of 147
take place. This war can only be pleasing manufacturers of
war
weapons.
They
are
the
only
people
who
will
make
profits.
We sat glued to our TV sets, almost unbelieving, because
the first people who fled Afghanistan were old women with
little children. This, we were told, was going to be the
war
against
terrorism.
This
was
going
to
liberate
the
people of Afghanistan against the tyranny of the Taliban.
This was going to end their misery and bring peace to these
good old people who couldn't have been responsible anyway
for the bombs that fell in New York. These were the old
people who were not consulted when America helped establish
the Taliban. These were the old people who feared for their
lives, who had seen the devastation of the so-called war
against
oppression
by
foreign
troops
in
Serbia
and
in
Kosovo. These old people, these desperate people like me,
could not understand why the guns were aimed at the victims
while
the
murder.
so-called
These
women
oppressors
literally
are
puzzled
still
got
and
I
away
am
with
still
puzzled. Why must the world suffer when the Taliban and Bin
Laden, Milosevic and Saddam, America's chickens, come home
to roost?
06 March 2003
Page 91 of 147
We still watch in horror and helplessness the extent to
which
human
liberation
life
and
has
been
recognition
devalued
of
in
the
Palestine.
We
war
for
watch
the
with
interest and listen to the sermons about respect for life
and human rights. When do we see this in practice? When do
we see people practising this and respecting the life of
the Palestinian child, the life of the Israeli child, the
life of the Israeli and Palestinian women?
Our thoughts go to the women of Afghanistan, of India, of
Ethiopia and of Eritrea. We congratulate our sisters in
Burundi on forging ahead. We also congratulate our sisters
in the DRC on getting over all the horrors of the foreign
armies
that
converged
on
Congo,
killing,
raping,
disinhabiting, looting and maiming. As women of Africa, we
are against the deployment of all foreign troops that try
to justify their presence in foreign countries to avoid
domestic situations such as those in Zimbabwe, in Namibia,
in Uganda and in Rwanda. I could go on, because there were
Liberia, Nigeria and Ghana, there are Senegal, the Ivory
Coast and Sierra Leone - and I could go on and on.
I could come back to South Africa a few months ago - in
December, to be precise - when, as South African women, we
06 March 2003
Page 92 of 147
were worried sick. We were worried sick because the spectre
of the return of violence was hanging over our heads. Never
again, never again must we be subjected to the uncertainty
that
South
poised,
African
was
women
poised
to
faced
go
when
into
KwaZulu-Natal
political
or
was
violent
conflict. Never again must we be subjected to the emotional
trauma we went through as women of this country. Never
again
must
we
remain
silent
and
be
taken
back
to
the
horrors of multiple funerals and bloodletting that we went
through.
As a person, as an African woman, if I were to leave any
word to my children and my children's children, it would be
to ask Africa to awake and to beware that she not be forced
to go to sleep again. It would be for us to be vigilant and
to let our hearts beat together. It would be to awaken the
burning passion in our eyes with our hands of steel on the
democracy that we must still forge. It would be to pray and
work very hard for democracy and development so that we
strengthen
the
foundations
we
have
laid.
We
must
never
allow, not any of us, male or female, the ideas of our
vision to fade, to become rusty. If we do, Nkosi Sikelela
will be jarring and Mayibuye i-Afrika will become jaded.
[Applause.]
06 March 2003
The
DEPUTY
Page 93 of 147
SPEAKER:
That
concludes
the
debate
on
this
subject. Hon members, may I add a word of congratulations
in particular for the fact that more than 40% of the people
who participated in this debate were male. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
PENSIONS (SUPPLEMENTARY) BILL
(Introduction)
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Deputy Speaker, this Bill is quite
straightforward. A certain Mr Clarke was employed on Marion
Island and had been paralysed. He was dissatisfied with the
pension
of
R1 500
per
month
that
the
rules
of
the
Government Employees Pension Fund allowed him.
He
petitioned
Parliament.
The
Portfolio
Committee
on
Private Members Legislative Proposals and Petitions agreed
to
increase
this
amount,
and
so
an
additional
monthly
pension of R1 500 per month, with effect from 15 March
2002,
and
September
arrears
2001
additional
would
be
pensions
granted
in
going
back
terms
of
to
1
the
supplementary Bill here before us. I thank you. [Applause.]
06 March 2003
Page 94 of 147
Bill referred to the Portfolio Committee on Finance for
consideration and report.
INSURANCE AMENDMENT BILL
(Second Reading debate)
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Deputy Speaker, hon members, the
insurance
industry
has
been
through
a
torrid
period,
especially since the events of 11 September 2001, and also
as
a
result
of
the
losses
incurred
with
the
economic
meltdown in the global economy.
What this Bill does is assist our insurance industry here
by improving the requirements in three important areas. The
first is the prudential soundness of the insurance company;
the second is its adherence to good corporate governance;
and
the
third
is
the
protection
and
education
of
policyholders.
At the end of the day I think that when we look at this
Bill, we must look at it from the perspective of two broad
areas:
the
one
area
which
this
Bill
entrenches
and
reinforces is consumer protection; and the other area is
06 March 2003
the
Page 95 of 147
protection
together
managed
to
in
of
ensure
the
shareholder
that
interests
interests.
insurance
of
These
companies
those
are
insured.
come
better
Thank
you,
Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]
Ms B A HOGAN: Madam Deputy Speaker, the Bill before us
refines two major Bills that were put through Parliament in
the last parliamentary session - two Bills for short-term
and
long-term
insurance.
I'm
not
going
to
go
into
the
details of that. When this Bill was introduced, it was
covered and canvassed widely. There is a whole range of
mainly technical details.
The Bill was uncontroversial apart from one issue which
arose late in the day. I will explain why we took the
position we did on that. There is another issue which I
would also like to raise in connection with this Bill.
The first issue that the committee was constrained to look
at was what was called the famous in duplum rule. In the
previous
legislation,
prior
to
this
new
piece
of
legislation being passed, an exemption was formally granted
to the insurance industry to allow it to loan and, when it
loaned, for interest to accumulate beyond the amount of the
06 March 2003
Page 96 of 147
capital loaned. That exemption was withdrawn when the two
new Bills came before this House in our previous Parliament
- in about 1998 or 1999.
When
the
intention
amendments
was
to
to
remove
this
that
Bill
came
to
us
now,
exemption
so
that,
the
unlike
other financial services providers, the insurance industry
would now be able to loan and, if that loan was not repaid,
the
interest
could
accumulate
beyond
the
value
of
the
capital loaned.
A number of our organisations, including the Black Sash and
Cosatu, and a number of individuals made submissions to us,
and it appeared to us that these had real merit. Firstly,
regarding a loan that is granted in terms of a policy, what
happens is that quite often the person who makes the loan
does not pay back the loan, but when the policy is paid
out, he or she takes back the policy less what is owed the
company. So this almost becomes a long-term loan.
The industry argued that if we withdrew this exemption,
people would not be able to borrow against their policies,
and also that if this exemption was not granted it would
prejudice other people who had bought policies from the
06 March 2003
company
loans,
Page 97 of 147
concerned
these
loans
because
would
some
not
people
be
would
repaid
and,
be
getting
therefore,
those who were still continuing to pay would be prejudiced.
However, when we looked at this it was very clear that
those who took loans continued to pay their premiums on
their policies. The policies did not cease. They continued
to pay the premiums. It seemed to us manifestly unfair that
one sector in the financial services industry should enjoy
that exemption.
But this goes beyond that. It is also manifestly unfair
that for a person who does borrow, the debt can accumulate
far beyond the amount that was initially borrowed. So on
those grounds - and there are more arguments to and fro we
felt
that
we
could,
unfortunately,
not
grant
the
industry that exemption.
The second issue which I want to raise - just a small issue
raised in the Bill - is related to the short-term insurance
industry. The short-term insurance industry may not sell a
product and call it a funeral benefit or a funeral policy.
The short-term insurance industry only gives loans for a
06 March 2003
Page 98 of 147
year. Therefore, how can they be giving a funeral benefit,
a death benefit, for longer than that period of time?
But linked to that - and this is a very welcome amendment is the ongoing abuse, which is coming to the attention of
our committee, in the funeral industry. We have fly-bynight companies offering funeral benefits, but when people
have died those benefits can no longer be accessed.
People
living
with
Aids
have
given
evidence
to
our
committees here in Parliament in that often the insurance
policies that are taken out don't make it clear that if you
take out that insurance policy and you die of Aids, that
policy becomes null and void. Horrifying stories have been
told to us of people who have taken out such insurance
policies where the company has agreed and undertaken to
take care of all the funeral arrangements. However, they
take the bodies and then refuse to pay out the funeral
benefits
because
they
say
that
the
benefits
have
been
nullified by the person dying of Aids and therefore he or
she doesn't qualify for the benefits so they do not release
the body. The family goes through enormous trauma in trying
to bury their dead because the funeral parlours hold onto
those bodies.
06 March 2003
Page 99 of 147
This is only the start. Certain members of our committee
have already agreed that we want to explore the abuses that
are going on in the funeral insurance industry. So this
amendment is a welcome step forward in that regard. Thank
you very much. [Applause.]
Ms R TALJAARD: Madam Deputy Speaker, colleagues, this Bill
takes the process of prudential regulation of both longterm
and
short-term
introducing
provisions
insurance
substantive
in
line
new
with
one
step
minimal
further
capital
international
by
adequacy
standards.
These
developments are welcome.
Section 59 of the Long-Term Insurance Act and Section 53 of
the Short-Term Insurance Act are amended to clarify the
law,
following
two
conflicting
views
expressed
in
the
Supreme Court of Appeal. The proposed amendment favours the
judgment
Commercial
of
the
Union.
court
It
in
the
ensures
matter
that
the
of
Clifford
test
for
v
the
materiality of a misrepresentation or nondisclosure by an
insurer will be an objective test, the question being what
a reasonable, prudent person, and not the insurer in a
particular situation, would have regarded as material for
06 March 2003
Page 100 of 147
the assessment of the relevant risk. These developments are
equally welcome.
Clause 22, as well as the new Schedule 3, increases the
scope for regulatory discretion in the hands of the FSB.
The DA trusts that the insurance industry will be brought
into
the
consultation
Actuarial
Society
liabilities
provided
and
for
securities
can
of
SA
the
in
process
new
this
be
in
between
the
regarded
adequacy
and
for
FSB
calculation
capital
Bill,
the
in
of
and
assets,
requirements
determining
solvency
the
what
purposes.
If
industry is not sufficiently consulted in this regard by
the regulator, the industry and the regulator will be at
constant
loggerheads
in
implementing
the
new
system
of
prudential requirements and the new prudential provisions.
There
is
a
corporate
governance
early-warning-system
provision in section 18 that could act as an important
warning
impending
light
of
failures
any
in
serious
the
corporate
long-term
failures
insurance
or
industry
sector. It requires any director or managing executive who
resigns, or has his or her appointment terminated, to alert
the Financial Services Board to any matter of which he or
she may have become aware in the performance of his or her
06 March 2003
Page 101 of 147
duties that may hamper the insurance company's compliance
with the provisions of the Insurance Act, as amended by
this Bill before the House. This might still prove to be a
groundbreaking
provision,
as
concerns
about
the
individual's right not to self-incriminate have been taken
into consideration.
As
Mr
pointed
Neil
Krige
out,
the
of
the
long-term
Life
Offices'
insurance
Association
industry
has
has
taken
constructive steps to develop a BEE framework to form part
of an overall black economic empowerment charter for the
financial services sector. As he says:
The LOA has therefore initiated a process to analyse the
long-term insurance industry's contribution to BEE. These
proposed
indicators
include
ownership
of
companies
operating within the industry, management and control of
these
companies,
resources
and
employment
skills
development
importance
to
investment
activities,
desirable
the
equity
industry
investments,
policies
strategies.
are
financing
partnerships
guidelines regarding procurement.
and
corporate
of
BEE,
with
human
Also
of
social
socially
SMMEs
and
06 March 2003
Page 102 of 147
This is clearly a holistic approach to the concept of BEE
and,
I
might
add,
was
developed
without
the
strong-arm
tactics of the mining charter.
The Minister of Finance has now lifted the veil on the
financing
industry
of
black
across
economic
all
empowerment
sectors,
not
slightly.
only
the
What
long-term
insurance industry and/or the financial services industry
in
general,
are
requiring
is
certainty,
certainty
and
certainty about the black economic empowerment policy, as
it will be rolled out.
We require certainty about the enabling legislation and the
amendment of existing legislation, including the Industrial
Development Corporation Act, the National Empowerment Fund
Act and any other ancillary legislation that might require
further amendment and/or policy change. These details have
to be released as soon as possible by the Department of
Trade and Industry.
An approach must be adopted - I crucially emphasise: an
approach
must
be
adopted
-
that
allows
for
maximum
initiative in the hands and on the part of industry in any
and all sectors of the South African economy.
06 March 2003
Page 103 of 147
The DA supports this Bill. [Applause.]
Dr G G WOODS: Madam Deputy Speaker, the original Insurance
Amendment
Bill
which
was
submitted
to
the
Portfolio
Committee on Finance comprised 41 clauses, each of which
amended provisions in both the Long-Term Insurance Act and
the Short-term Insurance Act. It is significant that only
one of these proposed amendments was strongly contested, as
pointed out a moment ago by the hon Hogan, and this was
only by two or three of the 56 parties to whom the Bill was
originally referred.
The clause in question was that which would have removed
the in duplum rule as it stands in the Long-Term Insurance
Act and as it currently pertains to loans made by insurers
to
policy
parties,
supported
motivated
holders.
the
by
by
In
removal
the
the
addition
of
the
National
Financial
to
in
the
54
duplum
Treasury
Services
nonobjecting
provision
and
was
Board
and
was
strongly
the
life
assurance offices representing the industry.
The arguments which they articulated were based on a number
of consumer advantages and legal difficulties administering
the rule. The rule has long been discarded elsewhere in the
06 March 2003
Page 104 of 147
world, and other arguments were referred to earlier by the
hon Hogan. On the other hand there were Cosatu, the Black
Sash
and
an
obscure
body
calling
itself
the
In
Duplum
Association, which expressed the concern that the removal
of the provision could see unscrupulous insurance companies
taking advantage of and exploiting those people to whom
they had lent, especially regarding the possibilities of
excessive interest on the arrear interests of the loans in
question. The Financial Services Board countered this by
pointing
out
that
the
lenders
would
still
be
protected
under the Usury Act and the Prescription Act, especially
regarding interest rates.
There was the other issue also referred to earlier on that
there was some concern about the lenders getting themselves
into problems, but there I think an opposing view was that
people in all endeavours of life and all transactions must
take
some
responsibility
for
themselves,
and
we
as
legislators must not try to become part of a nanny state
situation.
So the committee then, for reasons which I do not fully
understand, rejected the proposed amendment without, as far
as I could follow at the time, being able to refute the
06 March 2003
Page 105 of 147
actual documented FSB arguments. I felt obliged to abstain
from the committee vote on the basis that I found the FSB
arguments to be quite compelling and that perhaps there was
another way for us to have dealt with the excessive loan
situation or the one or two dangers which we had witnessed
by way of another inclusion in the Bill.
Notwithstanding
the
difficulty
I
have
with
the
way
the
committee considered this particular part of the Bill, the
issue in question, when evaluated within the overall scope
of the Bill's other amendments - very sound amendments - is
simply not a big enough issue to have us oppose the Bill.
Thank you.
Dr
P
J
members,
RABIE:
the
Madam
Deputy
Insurance
Speaker,
Amendment
hon
Bill
Minister,
hon
provides
for
amendments to the Long-Term Insurance Act and the ShortTerm Insurance Act. The object of this Bill is to update
and consolidate the insurance industry's legal framework in
terms of generally accepted international legal principles.
It is estimated that 13,5 million South Africans qualify
for short- and long-term insurance. The low-income market
size
is
roughly
6
million
policy
holders
with
salaries
06 March 2003
between
Page 106 of 147
R4 000
and
R5 000
per
month.
The
following
variables must be seen within the industry as evaluated,
namely,
first
unemployment;
and
and,
foremost,
thirdly,
inflation;
secondly,
potential
disruptive
the
effects of HIV/Aids.
The Portfolio Committee on Finance discussed this Bill, and
a submission stated that the death rate in the low-income
market in the 30 to 40 age range is expected to double in
the foreseeable future as a result of the impact of Aids.
We appeal to all the role-players to take timeous proactive
steps
to
insurance
personal
enable
the
products.
rules
lower-income
The
viability
regarding
commercial
segment
of
stop
to
equity
orders
afford
markets,
and
the
uncapping of commission paid to agents are all factors that
affect the long-term viability of the insurance industry as
a whole. The South African market is not large enough to
absorb risks such as the collapse of a large corporation Koeberg
was
mentioned
-
or
of
a
mining
house.
The
importance of this legislation is that it provides for the
participation of foreign insurers in the local insurance
market.
06 March 2003
In
my
Page 107 of 147
introduction
I
said
that
the
role
of
investor
protection in this particular piece of legislation cannot
be
negated.
ombudsman
which
From
2000
received
85%
were
to
2002,
something
dealt
with
the
like
1
long-term
071
successfully.
insurance
complaints,
The
of
short-term
insurance ombudsman received something like 433 complaints,
of which 82% were dealt with successfully. Both the longterm
and
the
short-term
ombudsmen
are
funded
by
the
industry as insurers and a fee is debited in respect of
each complaint received.
The New NP supports this Bill. I thank you.
Dr G W KOORNHOF: Madam Deputy Speaker and hon members, the
objective of the Insurance Amendment Bill is to update and
consolidate the insurance industry's legislative framework
in terms of internationally accepted principles and best
practice. By amending this Bill today, we are ensuring that
we are in step with global events in this industry.
In South Africa, the insurance industry is a significant
role-player. It is estimated that it contributes an average
of
2,5%
to
the
gross
domestic
product,
or
R17
billion
annually. It employs more than 58 000 people. The market
06 March 2003
Page 108 of 147
capitalisation of the industry on the JSE is estimated at
R128 billion. Currently there are a total of 155 short-term
and long-term insurers in South Africa - indeed a massive
industry.
I want to highlight two amendments in the Bill: firstly,
the proposed change in the actuarial method of calculating
the value of assets, liabilities and the capital adequacy
requirement of all long-term insurers. This sets a minimum
level
at
which
long-term
insurers
must
spread
their
assests.
Secondly, the Bill proposes that any director or managing
executive
terminated
who
by
resigns
an
or
insurer
whose
must
appointment
inform
the
has
been
registrar
in
future, if so requested, of any matter relating to the
affairs of that insurer which may prejudice the insurer's
ability to comply with legislation. The recent allegations
made by Mr Nic Frangos about poor corporate governance at
Corpcapital is a case in point.
The UDM supports the Insurance Amendment Bill. I thank you.
06 March 2003
Page 109 of 147
Mr L M GREEN: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. There are many
good arguments persuading the ACDP to support this Bill - I
have actually prepared two pages of very good arguments especially if you refer to clause 7 and to the issue that
the
hon
Ms
Hogan
mentioned,
but
unfortunately
I
cannot
articulate these arguments in one minute. All I can do is
say that the ACDP supports this Bill and then sit down.
[Interjections.]
Miss
S
RAJBALLY:
Thank
you,
Madam
Deputy
Speaker.
Life
insurance, car insurance, fidelity insurance, health care
insurance, litigatory insurance - and I am sure we can go
on
and
on.
People
sign
up
for
these
and
the
killing
premiums all the time, but how common it is to find people
complaining about the premiums and excesses they are paying
or
how
benefits
many
-
or
years
how,
they
on
have
been
signing
up,
paying
they
with
were
minimum
under
the
impression that the insurance would cover this and that,
and it did not. Fine print is always there, but most of us
seem to fail to take time to read it.
The MF feels that in order to allow for fewer people to
feel scammed by insurance, legislation should be put in
place
to
control
the
long-term
and
short-term
insurance
06 March 2003
Page 110 of 147
sphere. An insistence on clarity must be stressed, as must
the duty on those selling insurance to spell out shortfalls
that the buyer may be faced with.
The MF notes that it is important for people, if they are
able, to take out insurance for the various things that are
valuable
to
them.
But
this
should
be
done
to
your
own
benefit and to serve ... I can see the light flashing,
Deputy
Speaker.
Insurance
must
not
be
a
monthly
money
drainage system that, though it collects a certain amount,
attaches
to
what
it
covers.
The
MF
supports
the
Bill.
[Applause.]
Mr B A MNGUNI: Deputy Speaker, as the hon Green has said,
this
Bill
has
a
lot
to
do
with
the
protection
of
the
clients. For instance, in terms of clause 4, when a company
changes its name, say from Sanlam to Santam, it has to go
via the registrar so that it cannot confuse its clients
when they make claims.
Also,
when
protected
information
a
or
to
director
immune
the
resigns
from
registrar
from
a
prosecution
concerning
company,
if
the
he
he
is
gives
unethical
behaviour of the company, because you might find that the
06 March 2003
Page 111 of 147
company might act unethically in order to get money, or
rather to refute clients' claims. So when a director or an
executive resigns, he is protected by clause 7 if he gives
such information of unethical conduct to the registrar so
that proper action can be taken.
It does happen sometimes, when you fill in a form, that you
forget, or perhaps you think the mistake was minor, or you
might think that you are healthy only to find after some
time that, according to the insurer, it constitutes a risk.
This Bill protects such a person so that if perhaps your
age was underestimated or overestimated, the insurer can't
say, when you go to claim, that because according to the
form
you
are
two
years
younger
or
two
years
older,
therefore it won't be able to pay you. This clause protects
you so that the insurer honours your claim.
Most of our people are low-income earners. Research that
was done by WBS on global equity found that there are about
six million people in South Africa that go to the banks or
pay their premiums through debit orders or stop orders. Now
this clause makes sure that even if the bank does not print
your name or your policy number on the receipt, you are
protected, because banks have sophisticated infrastructures
06 March 2003
Page 112 of 147
that can trace the premiums that you deposited with the
insurer.
So
this
Bill
does
protect
you,
even
if
the
insurance company might say you have not paid your premium.
When you produce that receipt or deposit slip from the
bank,
you
are
protected
and
the
insurance
company
must
honour your claim.
There are more good things about this Bill. As hon Green
said, he couldn't mention all of them. One of the things is
that the insurance companies, these days, no longer need
permission from the registrar if they want to invest in the
SADC countries. Previously they had to get permission from
the registrar to invest in other SADC countries. According
to
this
Bill
now
they
no
longer
have
to
ask
for
that
permission.
I just want to say to the hon colleague Wood that the FSB
argument was refuted because when you borrow money, as the
hon Comrade Barbara said, the interest cannot accumulate
more than the capital you have borrowed. In that way it
actually puts most of our people at a disadvantage. There
were six reasons given by FSB which were refuted. That is
why the FSB argument was refuted, because we saw that it
was actually unethical really to let someone borrow R50 000
06 March 2003
Page 113 of 147
and then, at the end of a year, to say, `` You must now pay
R150 000.'' That's why we opposed the in duplum route.
Lastly, the hon Taljaard says there were strong-arm tactics
when the minerals charter was drawn up. The fact is that
this Government will not hesitate to empower those who were
denied opportunities to participate in the broader economic
life of South Africa. Thank you. [Applause.]
Die MINISTER VAN FINANSIES: Mev die Adjunkspeaker, dit is
die week van veeltaligheid, so ek sal maar probeer om in
Afrikaans net baie dankie te sê aan die komitee vir hul
werk.
Ek
dink
polishouers
is
hul
belangstelling
uitstekend
in
in
hierdie
die
belange
verband.
Dit
van
is
belangrik dat die dinge waaroor lede hier gesels het, veral
rakende die Raad op Finansiële Dienste en hulle benadering,
en die feit dat hulle gekorrigeer is deur die komitee, vir
ons
sê
dat
demokrasie
werk.
Weer
eens
baie
dankie.
[Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[The
MINISTER
OF
FINANCE:
Madam
Deputy
Speaker,
it
is
multilingualism week so I will, in Afrikaans, try just to
say thank you very much to the committee for their work. I
think their concern for the interests of policy holders is
06 March 2003
Page 114 of 147
excellent in this regard. It is important that the things
which
members
talk
about
here,
especially
regarding
the
Financial Services Board and their approach, and the fact
that they were rectified by the committee, tells us that
democracy
works.
Once
again
thank
you
very
much.
[Applause.]]
Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time.
DIVISION OF REVENUE BILL
(Second Reading debate)
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Mhlalingaphambili [Madam Speaker],
hon members, the Bill is the embodiment of co-operative
governance, which is at the very heart of our Constitution.
The
division
of
resources
among
the
three
spheres
of
Government is one of the most critical steps in the Budget
process as it provides the basis for the preparation of the
national, 9 provincial and 284 municipal budgets for the
next financial year.
06 March 2003
The
Page 115 of 147
explanatory
attachments
also
contain
detailed
information on the formula for the provincial and local
equitable share allocations, and a detailed framework on
each conditional grant to a province or municipality. The
Bill
therefore
province
and
provides
critical
municipality
and
information
for
every
for
every
national
and
provincial department to prepare its budget.
I want to emphasise that this Bill deals with aggregate
allocations only, and not how these funds are to be spent.
The
national
allocation
Government
through
therefore
does
the
not
allocates
its
Appropriation
appropriate
for
equitable
share
Bill.
This
the
budgets
Bill
of
departments or sectors and does not indicate what outputs
the
allocations
will
buy
and
what
outcomes
would
be
accomplished. We will deal with these in a separate report,
the
Intergovernmental
Fiscal
Review,
which
should
be
available in roughly a month's time.
In respect of the allocations, the heart of this Bill is in
Schedule 1, which allocates funds to the three spheres of
government.
national
Of
the
Government
R334
is
billion
budgeted
allocated
R185,2
for
2003-04,
billion.
This
allocation includes R54 billion for debt-servicing costs
06 March 2003
and
the
Page 116 of 147
contingency
Government
with
R138
reserve,
leaving
billion
to
the
national
allocate
to
its
departments.
In respect of the provincial equitable share, R142 billion
is allocated, and for local government the equitable share
component
provinces,
is
R6,3
including
billion.
both
The
the
total
allocation
equitable
share
for
and
conditional grants, increases from R137 billion this year
to R159 billion in 2003-04, rising to R192 billion in the
fiscal year which ends on 31 March 2006.
In respect of the provinces, the Budget maintains strong
growth
in
the
infrastructure
allocations
development
and
targeted
for
maintenance,
provincial
rising
from
R1,6 billion in the present fiscal year to R3 billion in
the third year. Provinces will receive R8 billion from the
infrastructure grant over the period, an increase of about
25% per year. It is anticipated that provinces will use
this grant effectively to deal with infrastructure backlogs
in schools, health facilities and provincial roads.
However, it also strengthens Government's efforts to deal
with pressures arising from HIV/Aids on provincial budgets.
06 March 2003
Page 117 of 147
Earmarked allocations for HIV/Aids amount to R2,1 billion
over the period. In addition, provinces are also expected
to allocate at least R1 billion more in this year's MTEF
from
their
budgets
towards
HIV/Aids
programmes
for
prevention and support to those infected and affected.
In respect of local government, the 2003 budget is mainly
targeted towards the provision of free basic services, the
extension of services to areas not currently serviced and
job
creation
through
investment
in
labour-based
infrastructure programmes. In total R4,1 billion over the
2003 MTEF is made available for water, electricity, refuse
removal and sanitation as part of the Government commitment
to providing free basic services.
Let me conclude by noting that it is now six years since
the
introduction
of
the
current
fiscal
framework
for
provincial and local governments. Much has happened since
the
creation
of
our
nine
provinces
and
municipalities,
including the passage of foundation-laying legislation, the
establishment of co-operative governance institutions such
as the Budget Council, Budget forums and Minmecs.
06 March 2003
Page 118 of 147
If one looks at what we have made available in this Bill,
it is very clear that the accompanying information goes far
beyond the legal requirements set out in the Constitution
and
other
relevant
statutes.
The
additional
information
provided with the Bill represents for us another milestone
in
enhancing
political
oversight
and
transparency
and
ensuring accountability. More importantly, the allocation
of
all
local
government
grants
per
municipality
further
deepens co-operative governance in the budget allocation
process. The announcement was made last week, four months
ahead of the due date for local government budgets.
I have pleasure in placing the Division of Revenue Bill
before this House. I also want to take this opportunity to
wish Shahid Khan a very happy birthday. [Applause.]
Mr N M NENE: Madam Deputy Speaker and hon members, the Bill
before
us
today
fulfils
a
fundamental
constitutional
requirement, namely section 214(1), which directs that an
annual
Act
division
of
of
Parliament
nationally
must
raised
determine
revenue
the
among
equitable
the
three
spheres of government. This is also done in accordance with
the Intergovernmental Fiscal Relations Act, Act 97 of 1997,
06 March 2003
Page 119 of 147
which establishes forums and outlines various consultation
processes that precede the tabling of this Bill.
The Freedom Charter visualises a standard of living for our
people that would liberate them from poverty and want, and
the indignity of human deprivation. It says: ``The people
shall share in the country's wealth'', but unless there is
equitable distribution of resources, this vision remains
but a dream.
Appropriately this Bill then provides for the following:
the equitable division of revenue anticipated to be raised
nationally, among all three spheres of government, for the
2003-04
financial
year;
the
promotion
of
co-operative
governance and principles of intergovernmental relations on
budgetary matters; the promotion of better co-ordination
between policy planning, budget preparation and execution
processes; the promotion of predictability and certainty in
respect
of
all
allocations
to
provincial
and
local
governments in order that such governments may plan their
budgets
over
transparency
a
and
multiyear
equity
in
period;
all
the
promotion
allocations
and
of
of
accountability for the use of public resources by ensuring
that
all
transfers
are
reflected
on
the
budgets
of
06 March 2003
Page 120 of 147
benefiting provincial and local governments; and ensuring
that
legal
proceedings
between
organs
of
state
and
the
three spheres of government are avoided.
Indeed, the tide has turned and there is no turning back in
the struggle against poverty. This Bill is the culmination
of
an
exhaustive
Government
consultative
priorities,
as
process.
outlined
in
In
the
keeping
with
Medium-Term
Budget Policy Statement, the national departments receive
40,4% of the allocations, the provinces receive 56% and
local government gets 3,6%. I will leave out the bigger
figures, because the Minister has already mentioned them.
The shares of both provincial and local governments have
been increasing in the past few years and they continue to
increase significantly in the MTEF period. The provincial
allocation increases from 56% to 57,6%, while that of local
government increases from 3,6% to 4,4% in 2005-06. These
increases take place at the cost of national Government,
which has decreased from 40,5% to 38%.
Section 214 of the Constitution requires that the annual
Division of Revenue Act be enacted only after account is
taken of factors such as the national interest, provision
06 March 2003
Page 121 of 147
of debt, the needs of national Government and emergencies,
the allocation of resources to provide basic services and
meet
developmental
needs,
efficiency
of
particular
importance
disparities
and
provincial
and
is
the
fiscal
capacity
and
governments.
Of
and
local
the
reduction
the
promotion
of
national
interest
and
of
economic
stability
and
predictability.
As
regards
the
the
division
of
resources, these governance goals benefit the nation as a
whole. Of primary importance are policy objectives such as
the reduction of inequality, unemployment, crime, poverty
and
vulnerability.
Looking
at
economic
disparities,
the
infrastructure grant and the equitable share formulae are
redistributive
municipalities
disparities
because
between
municipalities.
provincial
towards
Fiscal
government
the
poor
of
economic
and
within
capacity
have
been
provinces
and
demographic
provinces
and
and
efficiency
improved
by
and
in
the
implementation of the Public Finance Management Act. The
pending
promulgation
of
the
Local
Government:
Municipal
Finance Management Bill is expected to do the same in local
government over the next five years.
06 March 2003
Page 122 of 147
This Bill is but one instance of the abundant evidence that
the ANC Government is serious about service delivery that
will push back the frontiers of poverty and bring about a
better life for all. I invite hon members to take time to
look at the figures of these allocations and then to assist
in ensuring that these allocations achieve their desired
objectives.
I trust that we will support this Bill as a demonstration
of our commitment to pushing back the frontiers of poverty.
[Applause.]
Ms R TALJAARD: Deputy Chair, colleagues and Minister, the
Division
of
Revenue
Bill
seeks
to
allocate
the
funds
identified in the Budget to the three spheres of government
and seeks to respond, in accordance with section 214 of the
Constitution, to the substantive recommendations made by
the FFC. Among these recommendations, the FFC made a call
for a review of the intergovernmental fiscal relations, as
our
experiences
must
spark
more
efficiency
gains
and
constant improvement. The DA echoes this call of the FFC.
In
terms
of
the
Division
of
Revenue
Bill,
national
Government's share of revenue in this Budget year declines
06 March 2003
Page 123 of 147
from 40,4% to 38,9% in 2003-04 and just 38,0% at the end of
the
MTEF
increases
period.
period,
from
The
while
56,8%
local
to
provincial
57,6%
government
at
governments'
the
share
end
of
of
revenue
share
the
MTEF
increases
from 3,6% in 2002-03 to 4,3% in 2003-04 and then remains
relatively static over the MTEF period.
The Division of Revenue Bill is largely a replica of the
2002
version.
provisions.
equitable
However,
There
share
is
a
there
new
allocations
are
three
clause
to
5
new
substantive
dealing
local
with
the
government.
It
contains potentially contentious provisions on the stopping
of funds from the National Treasury to local government.
These provisions pre-empt the current discussions on the
Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Bill.
Secondly, there is a new clause 8 on transfers to national
public entities, such as Eskom and water boards, performing
municipal service functions. The provision requires such
entities to formally be deemed to be external mechanisms
for
purposes
Municipal
of
Systems
provisions
of
Act.
entities
These
the
Local
will
Government:
therefore
be
more accountable to local government in accordance with the
reporting
requirements
for
public
entities
and
external
06 March 2003
Page 124 of 147
mechanisms in the systems Act as well as the new clause 8.
This provision is obviously welcomed.
The new clauses 15 and 17 obligate provinces to publish
local government grants per municipalities, a further step
that will enhance increased transparency and therefore the
abilities to exercise oversight and enhance accountability.
The most problematic provision of this Bill for the DA,
however, is clause 5. It presents a number of difficulties.
It
pre-empts
Municipal
key
provisions
of
the
Finance
Management
Bill
Local
and
Government:
deals
with
the
stopping of funds to a municipality where that municipality
seriously or persistently breaches uniform treasury norms
and standards. As the process around the Local Government:
Municipal Finance Management Bill still has to resolve the
question
of
the
reach
of
what
could
be
construed
as
a
uniform treasury norm and standard, and this question has
obvious and clear constitutional implications, the DA does
not believe it to be sound legislative practice to pre-empt
the
Local
Government:
Municipal
Finance
Management
Bill
with the new clause 5 in the Bill before the House today.
This
forms
process.
part
While
of
one
a
different
can
legislative
understand
and,
to
deliberative
an
extent
06 March 2003
perhaps,
Page 125 of 147
sympathise
with
National
Treasury's
slight
impatience, this is bad legislative practice.
It is clear that one would have to weigh this provision
against
the
support
for
the
Division
of
Revenue
Bill.
Obviously we cannot oppose the Division of Revenue Bill
purely and solely because of clause 5 and we will not. We
support
the
Division
of
Revenue
Bill.
We
do,
however,
believe that it is bad legislative practice and it must not
be repeated. The only saving grace is that this provision
is only in force for one year and will, indeed, hopefully
be
undercut
by
the
subsequent
enactment
of
the
Local
Government: Municipal Finance Management Bill.
As the new Bill has taken - and I must compliment the
National Treasury - a quantum leap in transparency and the
quality
of
information
provided
and
contained
in
its
annexures, the oversight challenge now rests with the NCOP
and the Select Committee on Finance for a more in-depth
analysis and comments on Treasury's comments on the FFC
recommendation and, indeed, the adequacy of the equitable
share allocations and grants.
06 March 2003
Page 126 of 147
Minister, I echo your sentiments to Mr Khan, particularly
given the fact that he survived a hijacking attempt this
weekend. We would also like to wish him a happy birthday.
[Applause.]
Dr
G
G
WOODS:
Chairperson,
the
hon
Nene
and
the
hon
Taljaard have done a great job of covering all the more
important issues, and I think that just leaves me to make a
few incidental observations. The first might be that one
notes over the years that the Bill is growing in scope. It
seems to be going way beyond its constitutional requirement
of just talking about the equitable division of nationally
raised revenue and any other allocations to the second and
third tiers of government. It is now going on to show a
tendency
to
governance,
get
into
areas
administration
and
of
financial
distribution
management,
methods
and
even objects, and it goes beyond the objectives of the Bill
as well.
Where
these
peripheral
provisions
concern
accountability
arrangements, I think there is a case for their inclusion,
but for the rest I am wondering if these would not be
better accommodated elsewhere in law.
06 March 2003
Page 127 of 147
Another issue, to repeat one mentioned by the hon Taljaard,
is the accompanying Annexure E. I think in previous years
the
committee
accompany
had
the
requested
Bill
as
that
required
this
in
annexure
section
indeed
10
of
the
Intergovernmental Fiscal Relations Act, as opposed to only
appearing in the Treasury's Budget Review document. This
year, for the first time, the Treasury obliged, and I could
not help noticing how convenient this was for members of
the
committee
when
processing
the
Bill.
Thanks
to
the
Treasury for that.
Regarding the actual divisions, I think my party has done
the
obvious
by
looking
at
the
KwaZulu-Natal
province's
division and the basis of its calculation. Here we are
happy
to
report
participatory
followed
and
in
that
we
transparent
the
are
satisfied
nature
establishment
of
of
the
with
the
the
process
horizontal
formulation, and we concur that the KwaZulu-Natal province,
the most populated province, will, in our opinion, receive
an equitable share of nationally collected revenues.
We do, however, have a small issue to resolve regarding the
welfare
portion
demographic
of
features
the
KwaZulu-Natal
peculiar
to
the
allocation,
province
and
where
the
06 March 2003
Page 128 of 147
effects of the welfare component, which is part general
allocation and part conditional grant, seem to leave the
province, in our opinion, a little short-changed, but I
believe the MEC of the province is taking that up with the
Minister.
A
final
observation
perhaps
might
be
to
express
a
few
thoughts on the Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, and
its
essential
constitutional
responsibilities,
which
concern it exercising its mind on the divisions of revenue.
To me it seems that the FFC has now developed into a body
which is in command of its subject matter and, through
various research and analytical exercises, is demonstrating
an ability to undertake work of a high and relevant quality
and, as it would seem, work that is now being considered by
the National Treasury. But notwithstanding this apparent
progress on the part of the FFC, I, for one, have never
fully appreciated the need for the FFC, especially as the
Constitution gives it no decision-making authority, only an
advisory authority, and it is therefore of little effect
should Treasury disregard it.
I would go further to say that the commission does not seem
to do anything that the National Treasury is not capable of
06 March 2003
Page 129 of 147
doing, and I suspect that there are those in the National
Treasury who would silently agree with me on this issue.
The IFP supports the Division of Revenue Bill and thanks
the National Treasury for the sound and thoughtful work
that is put into its compilation and also for the high
quality of the schedules that accompany the Bill.
The
DEPUTY
CHAIRPERSON
OF
COMMITTEES:
Hon
Minister
of
Finance, you might see that the gallery is filling up. I
think the young people of South Africa want to see how the
Minister of Finance and this Parliament look after their
scarce resources. [Interjections.] [Applause.] Welcome to
Parliament.
Dr
P
J
members,
RABIE:
the
Deputy
Division
Chairman,
of
Revenue
hon
Minister
Bill
provides
and
hon
for
the
equitable division of revenue raised nationally among the
national, provincial and local spheres of government. The
reporting requirements of allocations and the permission
regarding
the
withholding
and
delaying
of
payments
certain circumstances are also clearly spelt out.
in
06 March 2003
Page 130 of 147
This Bill is the product of a consultative process, with
the
Financial
Medium-Term
assessing
and
Fiscal
Expenditure
Commission,
Framework,
developmental
needs.
A
in
terms
and
other
number
of
of
the
bodies
economic
disparities are identified and the needs regarding schools,
hospitals, clinics and housing are clearly mentioned.
Flexibility
regarding
contingency
funds
in
case
of
emergencies through a contingency reserve that provides a
cushion for
unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure is
also provided for. Sections 16 and 25 of the Public Finance
Management Act make specific provision for the allocation
of these specific funds.
I
think
it
themselves
is
important
with
the
for
hon
equitable
members
share
to
formula
acquaint
used
to
allocate funds - which is, after all, the essence of this
particular
piece
components
or
of
legislation
indices
used,
-
to
namely,
provinces
education,
and
the
health,
welfare, population and economic and institutional output.
The equitable share for local government is also clearly
spelt
out.
Appendix
E2
provides
a
brief
description
of
conditional grants to local government. The significance of
these
grants,
the
conditions,
criteria
for
allocation,
06 March 2003
rationale
Page 131 of 147
for
funding,
monitoring
mechanisms,
projected
life of the grant and the capacity and preparedness of the
transferring department are also mentioned.
Statistical
used.
data
taken
Appendix
municipalities
E4
and
from
the
shows
2001
census
infrastructure
Appendix
E5
indirect
are
widely
grants
to
grants
to
municipalities.
To conclude, Appendix E7 is important because it shows the
demographic
data
and
local
government
equitable
share
regarding the population in a number of urban and nonurban
local authorities.
Before I conclude, allow me also to congratulate Mr Khan,
the representative of Treasury to the Portfolio Committee
on
Finance.
He
is
celebrating
his
birthday.
Many
happy
returns and thank you for the sterling work that you are
doing.
The New NP supports the Bill. [Applause.]
The
DEPUTY
CHAIRPERSON
OF
COMMITTEES:
Hon
members,
Ms
Bogopane, who is the chairperson of the Joint Monitoring
06 March 2003
Page 132 of 147
Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of
Children, Youth and Disabled Persons, has given me a note.
The people who are in the gallery are the girls from the
different provinces - I think it is 20 per province - who
will be attending the Girls' Education Movement launch on 7
March, tomorrow, in the Old Assembly Chamber, Parliament of
the
Republic
interesting
of
South
short
Africa.
title
of
They
GEM,
go
which
by
is
the
the
very
Girls'
Education Movement. [Applause.]
To all of you young people, you are indeed very welcome.
This Parliament is committed to ensuring that young people,
and girls in particular, are given every opportunity to
develop
to
potential
their
in
fullest
this
extent
country.
and
Welcome
to
to
their
our
fullest
Parliament.
[Applause.]
Dr G W KOORNHOF: Mr Deputy Chair and hon members, despite
the
fact
that
this
House
has
no
powers
to
amend
the
Division of Revenue Bill, it remains an important money
Bill
because
it
provides
for
the
equitable
division
of
revenue raised nationally among the national, provincial
and local spheres of government for the 2003-04 financial
year.
06 March 2003
Page 133 of 147
Due to time constraints I will only concentrate on local
government, which represents the sphere closest to service
delivery. The Financial and Fiscal Commission, the FFC, in
its submission on this Bill, states the following:
A growing concern for the intergovernmental fiscal system
is the increase in municipal deficits over the last three
years.
It
would
appear
that
further
increases
are
expected for the next two years.
It is estimated that municipalities are owed a staggering
R22,5 billion for rates and service charges as at 31 March
2002. The role envisaged for local government to provide
services is being seriously compromised by this consumer
debt crisis. We urgently need steps at both national and
municipal
levels
to
prevent
further
consumer
debt
escalation.
Regarding
the
equitable
share
for
local
government,
we
therefore agree with the provision that National Treasury
may delay or withhold the transfer of an instalment in
certain circumstances. Furthermore, municipalities that are
not able to effectively administer an allocation will see
such allocations transferred to the province or to another
06 March 2003
Page 134 of 147
municipality. We simply cannot afford to throw money down a
bottomless pit any more, and we support this provision that
the Minister has put in.
In conclusion may we also wish Mr Shahid Khan a very happy
birthday. He is a valued member of Team Finance, but he is
also
a
very
good
friend
of
the
Portfolio
Committee
on
Finance. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I think the Chair
might as well join all the members in wishing Mr Shahid
Khan a very happy birthday. [Applause.]
Mr L M GREEN: Deputy Chairperson, this Division of Revenue
Bill
is
substantial.
It
consists
of
185
pages,
and
therefore I think we should actually be quite serious when
we debate it. To allocate 40 minutes to debate this Bill is
not
acceptable,
because
you
have
to
comment
on
the
equitable share for local government and on so many other
things, and yet you are given one single minute to do that.
[Interjections.]
We
are
not
serious
when
it
comes
to
democracy and to democratic debate. [Interjections.] How
can one debate ... [Interjections.]
06 March 2003
The
DEPUTY
Page 135 of 147
CHAIRPERSON
OF
COMMITTEES:
Order!
Hon
Green,
will you take your seat. [Interjections.] Hon Green, I am
addressing you. There are avenues open in this House to
deal with the type of matter that you want to be brought
forward and that would be by way of a substantive motion.
I think that in respect of the Bill, the convention is that
you will have to confine yourself to what is in the Bill.
So if you would please do that.
Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, the ACDP doesn't have any time
to comment on the Bill. There is nothing we can say. Let me
just conclude by wishing Shahid Khan a happy birthday. That
is
about
all
we
can
say.
We
can't
debate
this.
It's
ridiculous. [Interjections.]
Miss
S
RAJBALLY:
Thank
you,
Chairperson.
Shahid,
happy
birthday. I want some birthday cake.
Deputy Chair, it's again that time of the year when we all
eagerly wait to know the Budget funding allotted to the
various sectors that are to put our aims into action.
06 March 2003
Page 136 of 147
The Division of Revenue Bill is especially important in
that it is a sharing of revenue between the three spheres
of
government,
namely
national,
provincial
and
local.
Further, the division within these is extremely important
and the MF understands the pressure and brain-strain it
must take to attain equitable estimates.
KwaZulu-Natal is the most densely populated province. With
more people there, there are more needs, and more needs
spell more challenges. The province is also estimated to be
the
zone
worst
affected
by
HIV.
This
poses
one
of
the
greatest challenges, not forgetting housing, other health
issues, education, social services, the Public Service and
many
other
portfolios
that
fulfil
basic
human
survival
needs.
The estimated budget allotted to the KwaZulu-Natal province
is welcomed by the MF, which supports the Bill. Thank you.
[Applause.]
Mr F C FANKOMO: Deputy Chairperson, hon members, it gives
me pleasure to thank you all here. Mr Green has given me
the chance of an extra minute, and therefore I should have
seven minutes.
06 March 2003
According
required
Page 137 of 147
to
section
that
214
Parliament
of
the
Constitution,
should
enact
the
it
is
equitable
division of revenue raised nationally. This is to be done
through provincial and local government. I will concentrate
only
on
the
equitable
share
that
is
given
to
local
government.
In
support
of
Intergovernmental
the
Constitution,
Fiscal
Relations
section
Act
of
10
1997
of
the
requires
that when the Minister of Finance introduces the annual
Budget each year, he must introduce a Division of Revenue
Bill which relates to the current Budget. The Bill under
review is introduced in compliance with the requirements of
the Constitution and the Intergovernmental Fiscal Relations
Act.
The Bill seeks to enhance transparency and certainty in the
municipal transfers and budgets. The previous Division of
Revenue
Act
introduced
reforms
of
the
intergovernmental
fiscal transfer system which have improved functioning.
The current Division of Revenue Bill introduces amendments
to those sections that affect local government allocation.
For example, the Bill provides for the allocation of a
06 March 2003
Page 138 of 147
local government equitable share that allows, for the first
time, for the publication of the division per municipality
when the annual Budget is tabled. It also provides for
delaying
the
equitable
shares
to
municipalities
if
they
fail to provide basic information. The purpose of this is
to
ensure
that
the
municipalities
do
provide
basic
information indicating how the provision of basic services
is catered for. This Bill also requires the provision of
public information on the municipality's own allocations by
tabling their budgets and recognising the service authority
role of municipalities.
Currently,
the
provincial
share
transfers
for
Limpopo
amount to R728 890 with a projection of R842 370 for the
next year. One of its districts will have to receive an
amount of R101 322 with a projection of R115 104, which
means
that
one
of
its
municipalities,
Bushbuckridge,
receives an amount of R56 520 with a projection of R56 858
for the coming year. This shows that the ANC-led Government
seeks to push back the frontiers of poverty in our society
through
political
such as this one.
mechanisms
and
legislative
procedures
06 March 2003
Municipalities
Page 139 of 147
take
responsibility
for
the
delivery
of
services in their jurisdictions. This means that all grants
provided to public entities such as Eskom and water boards
for the provinces should be negotiated with municipalities.
Municipalities are assisted by the national Government with
unconditional grants to supplement their revenue to deliver
services to poor households.
The criteria used for the provision of the equitable share
were developed at a time when there was no information
regarding population, income, demographics, fiscal capacity
and
backlogs.
Budget
and
costing
information
was
not
available. Hence this legislation attempts to implement the
equitable
share
referred
to
in
section
227
of
the
Constitution. I thank you. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, Chairperson. I don't
know why the Girls' Education Movement ran away, but I
didn't mean to scare them.
Let me express appreciation. I'm really sorry that the hon
Green feels so strongly about the issue of time. But I saw
the hon Rajbally, with the same amount of time, make a
profound input about the constituency she represents and
06 March 2003
Page 140 of 147
the impact of this Bill on her life and the lives of people
around her. It's just a pity that he chose to argue as he
did.
In respect of the points by the hon Woods on the FFC, I
think that all of the Chapter 9 institutions are like that.
I take the view that the FFC is an umbrella, and because
the sun is shining you don't want to sell the umbrella. So
it's there. It will have an important role to fulfil at
some time. I think for as long as it is there to maintain
the interests of people within the FFC, it's important that
we
construct
a
relationship
that's
positive
and
constructive for them.
In
their
inputs
they
took
a
particular
view
on
the
contingency reserve. It's one that I happen to disagree
with, but it's an indication of the fact that they are
there and trying.
I would like to address the issues that the hon Taljaard
raised in respect of section 5(6) in particular. She says
that this is an attempt to pre-empt the Local Government:
Municipal Finance Management Bill. The origin of section
5(6) is in the Constitution in section 216(2), which is a
06 March 2003
precursor
also
Page 141 of 147
to
how
we
style
our
relations
with
the
provinces. It says:
The national treasury must enforce compliance with the
measures established in terms of subsection (1), and may
stop the transfer of funds to an organ of state if that
organ of state commits a serious or persistent material
breach of those measures.
So it's not about the Local Government: Municipal Finance
Management
Bill.
It's
about
the
Constitution
and
constructing a basis for constitutionality in the Division
of Revenue Bill. Clearly, it's there as a measure to try
and
strengthen,
government
published
is
early
because
the
moral
the
the
risk
hazard
equitable
in
respect
problem.
share
We
of
local
have
now
to
each
allocations
local authority. Now we've got to see how this is used.
We've indicated in consultation with them that there has to
be a focus on the provision of free basic services.
So the basis for consultation is there, but the enduring
problem in respect of local government is the debt. It's a
situation
that
has
relations
between
impacted,
municipal
as
we
government
all
and
know,
the
on
the
Auditor-
06 March 2003
General.
But
Page 142 of 147
if
we
merely
make
good
without
requiring
certain steps from local government, then we'll fail, I
think, democracy in this country, because very importantly,
what local government needs is to implement a policy on
indigence.
It
has
to
circumstances
be
a
to
policy
the
where
local
people
volunteer
government
where
their
their
circumstances can be measured. They should be put on a
register and you can then separate debt which is bad debt,
because it can't be paid by people who are just too poor to
pay, from the debt of those people who actually ought to be
paying
and
where
there
needs
to
be
much
stronger
enforcement.
That's part of the discourse between ourselves and local
government. It's a very important part of this, and so the
provisions in section 5(6) also have that at the back of
the mind. Clearly, the passage of the Local Government:
Municipal Finance Bill will assist in this regard because
it will order the way in which local authorities budget and
report on their money.
06 March 2003
Page 143 of 147
Again, chairperson, hon members, thank you very much for
the support. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time.
The House adjourned at 17:01.
__________
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
1.
Introduction of Bills:
(1) The Minister of Finance:
(i) Pensions
(Supplementary)
Bill
(National Assembly - sec 77).
[B
11
-
2003]
06 March 2003
Page 144 of 147
Introduction
and
referral
to
the
Portfolio
Committee on Finance of the National Assembly, as
well
as
(JTM)
referral
for
to
the
classification
Joint
in
Tagging
terms
of
Mechanism
Joint
Rule
160, on 6 March 2003.
In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the
classification of the Bill may be submitted to the
Joint
Tagging
Mechanism
(JTM)
within
three
parliamentary working days.
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
1.
The Speaker and the Chairperson:
Report
of
the
Office
of
the
Auditor-General
on
the
Budget of Income and Expenditure for 2003-2004 [RP 112003].
2.
The Minister of Home Affairs:
06 March 2003
Page 145 of 147
A list of approved early naturalisation applications in
terms of section 5(9) of the South African Citizenship
Act, 1995 (Act No 88 of 1995).
Copies of the list of applications are available at the
Office of the Clerk of Papers on request.
3.
The Acting Minister of Transport:
Report of the Regulating Committee for Airports Company
of
South
Services
Africa
Company
and
Ltd
the
for
Air
Traffic
2001-2002,
and
Navigation
established
in
terms of section 11 of the Airports Company Act, 1993
(Act No 44 of 1993).
4.
The
Minister
for
Justice
and
Constitutional
Development:
(a) Proclamation No R 6 published in Government Gazette
No
24351
dated
7
February
2003:
Commencement
of
sections 8 to 13, 15 to 22 and 24 to 28 of the Debt
Collectors Act, 1998 (Act No 114 of 1998).
06 March 2003
Page 146 of 147
(b) Government Notice No R 185 published in Government
Gazette No 24351 dated 7 February 2003: Regulations
made in terms of section 23 of the Debt Collectors
Act, 1998 (Act No 114 of 1998).
(c) Government Notice No R 186 published in Government
Gazette
No
24351
dated
7
February
2003:
Determination of date for the purposes of section
8(1), made in terms of the Debt Collectors Act,
1998 (Act No 114 of 1998).
(d) Government Notice No R 239 published in Government
Gazette
No
Determination
24393
of
dated
amounts
14
for
February
the
2003:
purposes
of
certain provisions of the Criminal Procedure Act,
1977 (Act No 51 of 1977) made in terms of the Act.
COMMITTEE REPORTS:
National Assembly:
1.
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy
on the Geoscience Amendment Bill [B 7 - 2003] (National
Assembly - sec 75), dated 5 March 2003:
06 March 2003
The
Page 147 of 147
Portfolio
having
Committee
considered
the
on
Minerals
subject
of
the
and
Energy,
Geoscience
Amendment Bill [B 7 - 2003] (National Assembly sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint
Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the
Bill without amendment.